1
00:00:08,560 --> 00:00:13,119
Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back the Bob Left Sets podcast. My

2
00:00:13,280 --> 00:00:17,640
Speaker 1: guest today is a photographer, Goel Burnstein. Joel, how did

3
00:00:17,680 --> 00:00:18,320
Speaker 1: you get started?

4
00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:22,160
Speaker 2: Probably when my parents gave me a little brownie Hawkeye

5
00:00:22,160 --> 00:00:26,319
Speaker 2: camera like a kid as a kid and started and

6
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:31,680
Speaker 2: being interesting and it interested in it. I started playing

7
00:00:31,880 --> 00:00:35,400
Speaker 2: ukulele at five or six, and then guitar, so I

8
00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,320
Speaker 2: actually was really into music before I picked up a camera,

9
00:00:39,200 --> 00:00:44,840
Speaker 2: and that informed I. Don't I guess how I my subjects.

10
00:00:45,280 --> 00:00:45,839
Speaker 1: I was like.

11
00:00:47,320 --> 00:00:50,880
Speaker 2: The first pictures that I developed and printed by myself

12
00:00:50,920 --> 00:00:54,720
Speaker 2: for the then unknown young Joni Mitchell in a coffeehouse

13
00:00:54,720 --> 00:00:57,080
Speaker 2: where she was doing three sets a night for about

14
00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:58,240
Speaker 2: Let's load on.

15
00:00:58,400 --> 00:01:01,120
Speaker 1: Let's load up. How'd you pick up the ukulele at

16
00:01:01,200 --> 00:01:01,800
Speaker 1: age five?

17
00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:06,520
Speaker 2: Well, I just was. I went to. Here's what I

18
00:01:06,560 --> 00:01:10,160
Speaker 2: realized later, unbeknownst to me, I was part of the

19
00:01:10,520 --> 00:01:15,120
Speaker 2: second American folk music revival that started in nineteen fifty

20
00:01:15,120 --> 00:01:19,959
Speaker 2: seven with the Kingston Trio having a number one hit

21
00:01:20,040 --> 00:01:22,360
Speaker 2: with the folk song Hanging Down Your Head Tom Dooley,

22
00:01:23,200 --> 00:01:27,679
Speaker 2: and that started the American folk music craze that you know,

23
00:01:28,720 --> 00:01:32,240
Speaker 2: took off from nineteen seven, went, you know, all the

24
00:01:32,240 --> 00:01:38,160
Speaker 2: way till Bob Noe went electric basically till nineteen sixty five. Okay,

25
00:01:38,440 --> 00:01:40,360
Speaker 2: so I was part of that growing up, and I

26
00:01:40,920 --> 00:01:44,080
Speaker 2: just had I had lessons, guitar lessons.

27
00:01:44,120 --> 00:01:46,440
Speaker 1: Wait a little bit, So it's nineteen fifty seven, you're

28
00:01:46,440 --> 00:01:50,320
Speaker 1: a student of the game. How do you become aware

29
00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:52,840
Speaker 1: of the folk revival?

30
00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:59,080
Speaker 2: Oh? Not until well, at the time, we had what

31
00:01:59,080 --> 00:02:03,120
Speaker 2: were called wing ding, which were home little parties that

32
00:02:03,200 --> 00:02:07,640
Speaker 2: were about bringing your guitar or you're ukulele in and

33
00:02:07,680 --> 00:02:09,680
Speaker 2: people would sit in a circle and you'd have like

34
00:02:10,320 --> 00:02:14,359
Speaker 2: hot cider or snacks, and you would play people what

35
00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:17,799
Speaker 2: you just learned, and they would pass the guitar around

36
00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:19,640
Speaker 2: in a circle, or if you brought your own guitar.

37
00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:23,119
Speaker 2: And that's something I did when I was like five

38
00:02:23,200 --> 00:02:24,200
Speaker 2: or six. You know.

39
00:02:24,440 --> 00:02:26,800
Speaker 1: Okay, no one likes to talk about age, but what

40
00:02:26,880 --> 00:02:27,639
Speaker 1: year were you born?

41
00:02:28,880 --> 00:02:31,600
Speaker 2: Nineteen fifty two. I'm eleven months older than you, Bob.

42
00:02:32,040 --> 00:02:34,920
Speaker 1: I was just going to say that we have a

43
00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:37,880
Speaker 1: lot in I remember listening to Rough and Ready records

44
00:02:37,919 --> 00:02:41,480
Speaker 1: at age five. I remember, you know, wing Bang Wuil

45
00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:46,600
Speaker 1: Walla bing Bang. But for me, I found out about

46
00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:50,560
Speaker 1: most of these folk songs at summer camp. But sure

47
00:02:51,160 --> 00:02:54,679
Speaker 1: in terms of five, that's very early. What was going on.

48
00:02:54,720 --> 00:02:56,080
Speaker 1: I mean it was early.

49
00:02:56,520 --> 00:03:01,600
Speaker 2: I was just interested in it. I don't let's see,

50
00:03:02,320 --> 00:03:05,520
Speaker 2: it was not that uncommon. Honestly. When I started, I

51
00:03:05,560 --> 00:03:07,519
Speaker 2: was in like a group class with five or six

52
00:03:07,639 --> 00:03:10,880
Speaker 2: kids learning to play ukulele, and at some point the

53
00:03:10,919 --> 00:03:14,119
Speaker 2: guitar teacher telling us to close our eyes and tell

54
00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,800
Speaker 2: us what chord he was playing on the guitar, and

55
00:03:16,840 --> 00:03:19,720
Speaker 2: I was the only kid who could do it, which

56
00:03:19,760 --> 00:03:21,800
Speaker 2: really surprised me, Like it was obvious to me, like,

57
00:03:21,880 --> 00:03:23,720
Speaker 2: of course, that's a g chord because I can hear

58
00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,280
Speaker 2: the high notes up at the top or whatever. I

59
00:03:26,320 --> 00:03:30,720
Speaker 2: had clues, audio clues in my head, so I got

60
00:03:30,760 --> 00:03:35,480
Speaker 2: into that started me off on. Then when hearing things

61
00:03:35,480 --> 00:03:38,000
Speaker 2: on the radio, I wanted to know what chords they were,

62
00:03:39,360 --> 00:03:43,280
Speaker 2: so I would sit with Beatle records. You'll remember that

63
00:03:44,000 --> 00:03:46,560
Speaker 2: some of the early records had the vocals on one

64
00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:50,160
Speaker 2: side and the band on the other side. So if

65
00:03:50,200 --> 00:03:53,000
Speaker 2: you had a friend who had a whose parents had

66
00:03:53,040 --> 00:03:56,040
Speaker 2: a stereo, you could move the balance control and just

67
00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,720
Speaker 2: hear the vocals so you could learn the harmonies, or

68
00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,720
Speaker 2: you could just hear the guitar part on the other

69
00:04:00,800 --> 00:04:04,080
Speaker 2: side and figure out the guitar chords. So I started

70
00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:05,240
Speaker 2: doing that when I was really young.

71
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:11,040
Speaker 1: Okay, you started with ukulele, nice Jewish boy. Didn't your

72
00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:14,520
Speaker 1: parents say you had to take piano lessons? No?

73
00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:17,000
Speaker 2: They I think they probably tried, actually to get me

74
00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,440
Speaker 2: to play piano at some point. It wasn't for me.

75
00:04:21,720 --> 00:04:26,920
Speaker 2: I folks, learning folk guitar was really easy to me,

76
00:04:27,240 --> 00:04:33,480
Speaker 2: and I gosh, I think I played on a local

77
00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:37,320
Speaker 2: TV station. I played Puff the Magic Dragon when I

78
00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,320
Speaker 2: was maybe six or seven something like that, as I remember.

79
00:04:42,600 --> 00:04:44,919
Speaker 2: But I never wanted to be a performer any.

80
00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,760
Speaker 1: Okay, but you were pretty good at it. You had

81
00:04:47,800 --> 00:04:52,960
Speaker 1: a natural ability. Yeah, yes, okay, So the folk revival happens. Ultimately,

82
00:04:53,040 --> 00:04:56,919
Speaker 1: there's a TV show Who Nanny Long you know, into this.

83
00:04:57,360 --> 00:05:01,240
Speaker 1: But when Bob Dylan's first album comes out Joan Baiez

84
00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:04,720
Speaker 1: before that, phil Oaks. Is that stuff you're aware of?

85
00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,760
Speaker 2: Yes, but I like only peripherally because I'm learning actual

86
00:05:09,839 --> 00:05:13,800
Speaker 2: folk songs and unbeknown I actually was given Let's say,

87
00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:16,560
Speaker 2: my guitar teacher said, could you send one of your students?

88
00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:20,719
Speaker 2: Were doing a thing at the y MHA of what

89
00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:23,360
Speaker 2: is a folk song, so we'd like you, you know,

90
00:05:23,520 --> 00:05:25,960
Speaker 2: just pick a student to be there. So I went

91
00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:30,039
Speaker 2: and I wasn't thinking about it too much. I was

92
00:05:30,080 --> 00:05:35,159
Speaker 2: going to play a song, and I played Blowing in

93
00:05:35,200 --> 00:05:40,640
Speaker 2: the Wind for this panel of adults. And it turns

94
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,359
Speaker 2: out that the lead person was a major figure in

95
00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:47,799
Speaker 2: the folk music scene I know now named doctor Kenneth Goldstein,

96
00:05:47,960 --> 00:05:52,159
Speaker 2: who gently, you know, let me know that that actually

97
00:05:52,200 --> 00:05:57,720
Speaker 2: wasn't a folk song and explained to me the difference

98
00:05:57,800 --> 00:06:01,640
Speaker 2: between you know, I I didn't distinguish at the time.

99
00:06:01,720 --> 00:06:05,240
Speaker 2: Now I'm very deeply into the distinguishing one from the other,

100
00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:08,800
Speaker 2: the singer songwriters. But that's how I got into the

101
00:06:09,480 --> 00:06:12,800
Speaker 2: from folk music, and you know, learning those guitar chords

102
00:06:12,839 --> 00:06:16,360
Speaker 2: and then figuring out how to play them, that's how.

103
00:06:16,279 --> 00:06:20,160
Speaker 1: I okay, how did you segue from ukulele to guitar?

104
00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:24,960
Speaker 2: So the guitar is just two more strings. The chords

105
00:06:24,960 --> 00:06:27,279
Speaker 2: are the first four strings are the same on a

106
00:06:27,320 --> 00:06:30,280
Speaker 2: guitar as the four strings of a ukulele. So if

107
00:06:30,320 --> 00:06:33,719
Speaker 2: you learn the ukulele and then you learn to play

108
00:06:33,800 --> 00:06:36,239
Speaker 2: a guitar, you only have two more strings to learn.

109
00:06:36,680 --> 00:06:38,600
Speaker 2: So I think that's something that was kind of common

110
00:06:39,240 --> 00:06:43,240
Speaker 2: at the time, And there's a picture of me asleep

111
00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:48,080
Speaker 2: my mom took with my ukulele resting by my head

112
00:06:48,080 --> 00:06:50,480
Speaker 2: at like I've played it till I've fallen asleep in

113
00:06:50,520 --> 00:06:54,760
Speaker 2: my bed at nine years old. So it's kind of

114
00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:55,360
Speaker 2: a funny thing.

115
00:06:55,560 --> 00:06:58,000
Speaker 1: When was the last time you played a ukulele?

116
00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 2: Probably around then. I didn't go back after I learned

117
00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,000
Speaker 2: to play guitars, very exciting to learn to play the

118
00:07:06,360 --> 00:07:11,400
Speaker 2: much fuller notes of the and of course, like many

119
00:07:11,440 --> 00:07:17,160
Speaker 2: other folkies, including David Crosby, when when I heard the Beatles,

120
00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,160
Speaker 2: I was like, I know those chords. I know all

121
00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,040
Speaker 2: of those chords.

122
00:07:21,880 --> 00:07:22,120
Speaker 1: Right.

123
00:07:22,440 --> 00:07:25,080
Speaker 2: That takes your head and puts it in a different

124
00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:27,120
Speaker 2: direction than folk music like it did his.

125
00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:30,280
Speaker 1: You know. Okay, So where do you grow up.

126
00:07:31,760 --> 00:07:34,520
Speaker 2: Suburban Philadelphia? I was in Teltenham Township.

127
00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:39,080
Speaker 1: And how far is that from downtown from the action?

128
00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,200
Speaker 2: Oh, it's still like eight or nine miles. It's a

129
00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:45,320
Speaker 2: near suburb, just over the city line of Philadelphia.

130
00:07:45,600 --> 00:07:47,920
Speaker 1: How'd your family end up in the Philadelphia area?

131
00:07:50,320 --> 00:07:52,920
Speaker 2: You know, they were from there, from a big family

132
00:07:52,960 --> 00:07:58,440
Speaker 2: in New York. My grandparents were I came from the

133
00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,680
Speaker 2: area around Poland and Russia. And settled in the Lower

134
00:08:01,720 --> 00:08:09,760
Speaker 2: East Side, and my grandparents, Uh, they had a tragic

135
00:08:10,160 --> 00:08:15,120
Speaker 2: two tragic accidents with in which their first two children,

136
00:08:15,200 --> 00:08:17,920
Speaker 2: their eldest children, were killed in different accidents in New

137
00:08:18,000 --> 00:08:21,400
Speaker 2: York City, and they were so distraught that they left

138
00:08:21,440 --> 00:08:24,840
Speaker 2: everyone they knew and there to go to come to Philadelphia.

139
00:08:25,440 --> 00:08:27,360
Speaker 2: In there, they just couldn't bear to be on the

140
00:08:27,360 --> 00:08:30,200
Speaker 2: streets of New York anymore because both of their children

141
00:08:30,280 --> 00:08:34,640
Speaker 2: died on the streets of New York. So that's so

142
00:08:34,679 --> 00:08:37,360
Speaker 2: they they left to go to Philadelphia and founded the

143
00:08:37,480 --> 00:08:40,200
Speaker 2: Philadelphia Wing of This is a very very poor family,

144
00:08:40,640 --> 00:08:43,160
Speaker 2: eleven kids in the poorest part of town.

145
00:08:44,400 --> 00:08:46,520
Speaker 1: So what did your parents do for a living.

146
00:08:48,080 --> 00:08:53,839
Speaker 2: My dad was a truck driver and in the Depression,

147
00:08:54,920 --> 00:08:59,680
Speaker 2: and he met my mom after World where he became

148
00:08:59,720 --> 00:09:03,960
Speaker 2: a sol He enlisted for World War Two and he

149
00:09:04,520 --> 00:09:07,240
Speaker 2: became a sergeant and he was in the D Day

150
00:09:07,240 --> 00:09:11,360
Speaker 2: invasion on Omaha Beach in Normandy on the second wave.

151
00:09:11,960 --> 00:09:17,760
Speaker 2: And I always try to imagine what that experience would

152
00:09:17,760 --> 00:09:21,040
Speaker 2: have been like for anybody and how it was. I

153
00:09:21,280 --> 00:09:23,440
Speaker 2: don't see how anybody could walk off that beach. It

154
00:09:23,480 --> 00:09:29,680
Speaker 2: was such a murderous place. I wouldn't be here if

155
00:09:29,679 --> 00:09:32,960
Speaker 2: he hadn't made it. But he survived that and walked

156
00:09:32,960 --> 00:09:37,640
Speaker 2: through Europe till v day to the end of the war,

157
00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,720
Speaker 2: and I met my mom after he came home. I

158
00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,240
Speaker 2: think it's a pretty typical story. I was thinking about

159
00:09:45,280 --> 00:09:48,720
Speaker 2: Billy Joel's song Allentown where he talks about our fathers

160
00:09:48,920 --> 00:09:51,240
Speaker 2: fought the Second World War. Am was like one of

161
00:09:51,240 --> 00:09:52,240
Speaker 2: those kids.

162
00:09:53,160 --> 00:09:58,240
Speaker 1: Okay, Traditionally men from that generation didn't talk about being

163
00:09:58,240 --> 00:10:00,920
Speaker 1: in the war. Did your father No.

164
00:10:00,840 --> 00:10:03,679
Speaker 2: He did not. He did not at all, and we

165
00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,080
Speaker 2: had to kind of pull it out of him. And

166
00:10:06,280 --> 00:10:09,319
Speaker 2: there would there would be reunions and he would get

167
00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:14,079
Speaker 2: notices like, hey, we're we're having a reunion of our

168
00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:19,720
Speaker 2: division of our company. And he never went and he

169
00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:22,240
Speaker 2: felt like he told me. I asked him one time

170
00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:24,480
Speaker 2: why he didn't go, and he he just said, you know,

171
00:10:24,520 --> 00:10:26,880
Speaker 2: these people act like like this is the biggest thing

172
00:10:26,880 --> 00:10:29,160
Speaker 2: that ever happened to them. You know, you got to

173
00:10:29,240 --> 00:10:32,640
Speaker 2: just keep looking forward and like keep doing what you're

174
00:10:32,640 --> 00:10:34,920
Speaker 2: doing and not like be looking back at what you did.

175
00:10:36,080 --> 00:10:42,040
Speaker 2: So but later I will say that he later my

176
00:10:42,160 --> 00:10:45,520
Speaker 2: brother I'm the oldest of five and my brother Stephen

177
00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:49,800
Speaker 2: took my dad to see Saving Private Private Ryan. So

178
00:10:50,559 --> 00:10:55,440
Speaker 2: the invasion sequence at Normandy, my dad was there there.

179
00:10:55,480 --> 00:10:57,600
Speaker 2: In the film, they're depicting the first wave of the

180
00:10:57,640 --> 00:11:00,760
Speaker 2: same company, so you have the same divisional at the

181
00:11:00,800 --> 00:11:05,640
Speaker 2: Blue and Gray in a circle in the movie that

182
00:11:05,640 --> 00:11:14,600
Speaker 2: that he experienced. And my dad started crying in the

183
00:11:14,600 --> 00:11:20,640
Speaker 2: theater and he like, broke up, broke, you know, it

184
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:27,800
Speaker 2: broke his h It broke It opened him up emotionally

185
00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:36,480
Speaker 2: to relive that. And my brother asked him, was was

186
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,480
Speaker 2: the movie? Was that was the movie like his experience?

187
00:11:39,520 --> 00:11:43,320
Speaker 2: And he said it was just like that, only much worse.

188
00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:50,839
Speaker 1: So it's the late sixties, you're protests against the war.

189
00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:53,880
Speaker 1: What does your father say about that?

190
00:11:53,880 --> 00:12:00,360
Speaker 2: That's a really interesting question. I at some point point

191
00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:04,120
Speaker 2: right before in nineteen sixty three, I think I was

192
00:12:04,240 --> 00:12:09,720
Speaker 2: very I was a very introverted kid. I liked to

193
00:12:09,800 --> 00:12:12,200
Speaker 2: read and I like to hunch, like play my guitar

194
00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:16,839
Speaker 2: by myself, hunched over. I think they my parents were

195
00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:18,959
Speaker 2: worried that I was being that I was too shy.

196
00:12:20,600 --> 00:12:25,040
Speaker 2: And they had a friend who sent his son to

197
00:12:25,320 --> 00:12:29,800
Speaker 2: a military academy for the summer session and said it

198
00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:31,640
Speaker 2: was the greatest thing that ever happened to him and

199
00:12:31,679 --> 00:12:35,000
Speaker 2: it really turned him around, and so my parents decided

200
00:12:35,040 --> 00:12:37,600
Speaker 2: to do the same for me. This was Valley Forge

201
00:12:37,640 --> 00:12:44,560
Speaker 2: Military Academy. This is where Norman Schwartzkoff went to school later,

202
00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:50,640
Speaker 2: much later, and that so I was very excited about

203
00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:52,839
Speaker 2: it because I because I was so proud of my dad.

204
00:12:53,360 --> 00:12:56,200
Speaker 2: I studied World War Two a lot. I knew a

205
00:12:56,200 --> 00:12:59,040
Speaker 2: lot about I made models, I knew a lot about

206
00:12:59,080 --> 00:13:01,640
Speaker 2: the maps and who did what and all of that,

207
00:13:01,840 --> 00:13:04,480
Speaker 2: and so I was excited to go to this military academy.

208
00:13:04,640 --> 00:13:13,840
Speaker 2: And uh, it was really a difficult, uh summer for me.

209
00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,160
Speaker 2: Sorry to get so deep into the details here, but

210
00:13:16,240 --> 00:13:21,839
Speaker 2: I'm just trying to answer your question. I uh I

211
00:13:22,120 --> 00:13:26,400
Speaker 2: I came away with it, h with a Instead of

212
00:13:26,440 --> 00:13:29,520
Speaker 2: thinking war was really great and cool, I had it

213
00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,880
Speaker 2: just a glimpse of like, no, it's not. And the

214
00:13:33,080 --> 00:13:36,320
Speaker 2: discipline involved in going this is our Our teachers were

215
00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:42,680
Speaker 2: ex army guys, and so the the you know, like

216
00:13:42,720 --> 00:13:44,360
Speaker 2: waking you up at two or three in the morning

217
00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:49,200
Speaker 2: to do calisthenics or bouncing a quarter on your sheets

218
00:13:49,679 --> 00:13:53,360
Speaker 2: when you major bed, and for inspection, you know, and

219
00:13:53,480 --> 00:13:57,560
Speaker 2: how how shine can we see your can the officers

220
00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:00,920
Speaker 2: see his reflection in your belt buckle, your brass belt

221
00:14:00,960 --> 00:14:05,760
Speaker 2: buckle when you've polished it. And do you eat if

222
00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:08,240
Speaker 2: you can imagine eating what we're called square meals, where

223
00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:11,599
Speaker 2: you do this, that's how you're supposed to.

224
00:14:11,640 --> 00:14:13,520
Speaker 1: Well, this is audio only he's moving his.

225
00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,800
Speaker 2: Arm in a I'm sorry, it's like a square meal.

226
00:14:16,800 --> 00:14:21,240
Speaker 2: Imagine a right angle, lifting your your fork with your

227
00:14:21,240 --> 00:14:23,560
Speaker 2: hands straight up and then straight to your mouth and

228
00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:26,440
Speaker 2: then back, you know, in a right in a right angle.

229
00:14:26,480 --> 00:14:29,640
Speaker 2: It is like the craziest thing. So just as a

230
00:14:29,640 --> 00:14:35,040
Speaker 2: as a memory anyway. So I went through that, and

231
00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,920
Speaker 2: then I got to hear a lecture of a senator

232
00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:46,600
Speaker 2: US senator named Wayne Morse who was talking about how

233
00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:51,280
Speaker 2: wrong the war in Vietnam was and there was a

234
00:14:51,280 --> 00:14:54,040
Speaker 2: lot of literature there. I saw the first pin that

235
00:14:54,120 --> 00:14:56,720
Speaker 2: had the peace symbol on it. That was the first

236
00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,400
Speaker 2: time I saw that, and I was I think I

237
00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,480
Speaker 2: was really prepped, like from my experience at the military

238
00:15:03,480 --> 00:15:06,520
Speaker 2: academy to be like, yeah, this is wrong. Like I

239
00:15:06,560 --> 00:15:09,760
Speaker 2: was really just a young naive kid, but I really

240
00:15:09,800 --> 00:15:13,240
Speaker 2: felt like, yes, this is wrong. So I became a

241
00:15:13,480 --> 00:15:18,400
Speaker 2: very early when it was very uncool to protest the war.

242
00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,360
Speaker 2: Maybe it was in sixty four that I started doing that,

243
00:15:22,440 --> 00:15:26,000
Speaker 2: and I was really a big part of my life too,

244
00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:32,560
Speaker 2: to protest against the war and to work for the

245
00:15:32,600 --> 00:15:35,400
Speaker 2: Eugene McCarthy presidential campaign and things like that.

246
00:15:36,080 --> 00:15:40,000
Speaker 1: And what did your father, as a experienced soldier have

247
00:15:40,160 --> 00:15:41,400
Speaker 1: to say about your protests?

248
00:15:43,000 --> 00:15:48,400
Speaker 2: A good question. He thought I was right. He thought

249
00:15:48,400 --> 00:15:51,640
Speaker 2: that Vietnam was wrong, was just going to be a quagmire,

250
00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:57,720
Speaker 2: and that he had no illusions about the glory of war,

251
00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:04,960
Speaker 2: and he thought it was a an empire building, economically

252
00:16:05,080 --> 00:16:10,720
Speaker 2: driven move that we shouldn't have gotten involved in.

253
00:16:12,640 --> 00:16:14,920
Speaker 1: So when your father came back from the war, what

254
00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:15,920
Speaker 1: did you do for a living?

255
00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,720
Speaker 2: So he had been a truck driver. It was a

256
00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:23,960
Speaker 2: family business. It was run by his oldest brother. Again

257
00:16:24,040 --> 00:16:26,760
Speaker 2: he's one of who is the tenth of eleven kids.

258
00:16:27,320 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 1: And.

259
00:16:29,080 --> 00:16:32,840
Speaker 2: So he was put in charge of a division called

260
00:16:32,840 --> 00:16:37,080
Speaker 2: the export packaging division to ship things to Europe because

261
00:16:37,080 --> 00:16:38,880
Speaker 2: we now had a lot, We're doing a lot of

262
00:16:38,920 --> 00:16:45,480
Speaker 2: business there. And so he the family grew a storage

263
00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:48,240
Speaker 2: business and then a separate moving business, and he did

264
00:16:48,240 --> 00:16:55,520
Speaker 2: the export packaging business and designed crate for industry. Like

265
00:16:56,000 --> 00:16:59,360
Speaker 2: all of he shipped all of the Boeing helicopters that

266
00:16:59,400 --> 00:17:03,120
Speaker 2: were shipped aroun the world. Each individual crates for example,

267
00:17:03,320 --> 00:17:05,040
Speaker 2: like you got to put the fuselage here, and you

268
00:17:05,080 --> 00:17:08,040
Speaker 2: got to put the propellers up, you know, you got

269
00:17:08,040 --> 00:17:10,080
Speaker 2: to fold them and put them in a separate crate.

270
00:17:10,160 --> 00:17:12,480
Speaker 2: So we got to see how he made those and

271
00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:14,960
Speaker 2: how they were shipped and things like that. That's what my

272
00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:15,520
Speaker 2: dad did.

273
00:17:16,800 --> 00:17:19,800
Speaker 1: Hey, did any of your brothers go in the business?

274
00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,680
Speaker 1: Be what happened to the business?

275
00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:32,080
Speaker 2: Good question, good questions. Let's see the family. But it

276
00:17:32,160 --> 00:17:36,840
Speaker 2: eventually went to cousins of ours to run the business,

277
00:17:37,560 --> 00:17:47,080
Speaker 2: and a combination of factors that included deregulation where the

278
00:17:47,119 --> 00:17:50,479
Speaker 2: moving business at that time had been federally regulated and

279
00:17:50,520 --> 00:17:53,560
Speaker 2: you had to be licensed and meet certain requirements to

280
00:17:53,560 --> 00:17:56,440
Speaker 2: be able to ship people across interstate want to ship

281
00:17:56,480 --> 00:18:01,520
Speaker 2: their goods. At some point they we sended those regulations.

282
00:18:02,760 --> 00:18:06,560
Speaker 2: At the same time, there was I'm trying to think

283
00:18:06,600 --> 00:18:09,400
Speaker 2: there was some other economic thing that was going on

284
00:18:09,480 --> 00:18:14,520
Speaker 2: that caused the moving business as they were doing it

285
00:18:14,560 --> 00:18:18,359
Speaker 2: to collapse. I was already gone by that point, so

286
00:18:18,400 --> 00:18:21,680
Speaker 2: I don't know the details of it. But my brothers

287
00:18:21,720 --> 00:18:24,600
Speaker 2: did go into that business and in fact what happened

288
00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:28,919
Speaker 2: just as a segue in nineteen seventy four, not to

289
00:18:28,920 --> 00:18:34,360
Speaker 2: skip ahead here, Well, I am skipping ahead. In nineteen

290
00:18:34,400 --> 00:18:37,480
Speaker 2: seventy four, I was on tour with Crosby, Stills, Nash

291
00:18:37,480 --> 00:18:41,200
Speaker 2: and Young as a tour photographer, and we were doing

292
00:18:41,280 --> 00:18:48,760
Speaker 2: our last show at Roosevelt Raceway in Long Island, a large,

293
00:18:48,960 --> 00:18:51,520
Speaker 2: really large show, and we had one more show to

294
00:18:51,560 --> 00:18:55,760
Speaker 2: do in England, and I overheard a stage manager talking

295
00:18:55,840 --> 00:18:58,360
Speaker 2: to the tour manager saying, I think when we're doing

296
00:18:58,359 --> 00:19:00,760
Speaker 2: this gig in England, we can't just use the paperwork

297
00:19:00,760 --> 00:19:03,000
Speaker 2: that we had going into Canada for that one gig.

298
00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:05,919
Speaker 2: I think there's something else we need. And I just

299
00:19:05,960 --> 00:19:08,520
Speaker 2: happened to hear that, and I walked over and I said, well,

300
00:19:09,080 --> 00:19:12,400
Speaker 2: you know what you're talking about. You do need different paperwork,

301
00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:14,240
Speaker 2: and this is what my dad does for a living,

302
00:19:14,280 --> 00:19:17,040
Speaker 2: And if you haven't arranged this yet, I suggest you

303
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,440
Speaker 2: call him, like right now, because these things like you're

304
00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 2: going to be doing need to do a lot of

305
00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:23,960
Speaker 2: paperwork to get all of our stuff. There was forty

306
00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:28,000
Speaker 2: thousand pounds of gear that was being shipped over to

307
00:19:28,080 --> 00:19:31,680
Speaker 2: England for this one show and to make a long

308
00:19:31,720 --> 00:19:35,359
Speaker 2: story short, my dad got the gig and my brother

309
00:19:35,560 --> 00:19:40,199
Speaker 2: came to the show, and I guess, let's see, I

310
00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:43,800
Speaker 2: would have been twenty two, so he was seventeen. This

311
00:19:43,840 --> 00:19:47,080
Speaker 2: is my brother's name is David, David Bernstein, and he

312
00:19:47,800 --> 00:19:51,600
Speaker 2: found it fascinating that, like, wow, everybody who's here backstage,

313
00:19:51,720 --> 00:19:54,640
Speaker 2: like all these people are making money on this, not

314
00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:58,119
Speaker 2: just the band this like this is fascinating. So he

315
00:19:58,800 --> 00:20:03,240
Speaker 2: went on from the that experience to found a company

316
00:20:03,240 --> 00:20:08,360
Speaker 2: called Rocket Cargo, which became the prime shipper in the

317
00:20:08,400 --> 00:20:13,800
Speaker 2: world for musical tours around the world, not just of

318
00:20:14,119 --> 00:20:19,480
Speaker 2: American bands but all bands. So he for many many

319
00:20:19,560 --> 00:20:25,600
Speaker 2: years had the lion's share of the shipments going whoever

320
00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:27,639
Speaker 2: the band was, whether it was the Rolling Stones or

321
00:20:28,359 --> 00:20:33,439
Speaker 2: hip hop groups, or whoever it was. That's so he

322
00:20:33,520 --> 00:20:36,000
Speaker 2: became much more wealthy and more famous than me.

323
00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:49,240
Speaker 1: Okay, you talked about being introverted. Yes, A. Were you

324
00:20:49,280 --> 00:20:51,800
Speaker 1: a good student? B? Did you have any friends?

325
00:20:52,920 --> 00:20:56,720
Speaker 2: Good question. I had friends, but I was sort of shy.

326
00:20:58,040 --> 00:21:00,400
Speaker 2: I loved to sit with my guitar and figure out

327
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:03,600
Speaker 2: how to play songs. I was okay to play them

328
00:21:03,600 --> 00:21:07,399
Speaker 2: for other people, like at campfires, or you know, for fun.

329
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:10,800
Speaker 2: I didn't want I did never think about being a musician.

330
00:21:10,840 --> 00:21:13,720
Speaker 2: I just loved playing it. I didn't think I was

331
00:21:13,840 --> 00:21:20,879
Speaker 2: good enough to to do it professionally, but I enjoyed

332
00:21:20,920 --> 00:21:26,040
Speaker 2: it quite a bit. And once I got a camera,

333
00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,680
Speaker 2: I loved doing that. So now I split my time

334
00:21:29,720 --> 00:21:33,240
Speaker 2: between playing guitar and taking photos and learning how to

335
00:21:33,280 --> 00:21:37,359
Speaker 2: develop film. And the first pictures that I took that

336
00:21:37,400 --> 00:21:40,440
Speaker 2: I developed and printed by myself were of the then

337
00:21:40,560 --> 00:21:44,280
Speaker 2: unknown Joni Mitchell in a coffeehouse. This would have been

338
00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,639
Speaker 2: in maybe January sixty seven.

339
00:21:49,119 --> 00:21:51,560
Speaker 1: Okay, before we get to that specific event.

340
00:21:52,600 --> 00:21:54,600
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, hey, were.

341
00:21:54,440 --> 00:21:56,480
Speaker 1: You a good student? Not a good student?

342
00:21:56,960 --> 00:21:58,919
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, I'm sorry you asked me that I was

343
00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,840
Speaker 2: a good student. Yes, I was good.

344
00:22:03,160 --> 00:22:06,800
Speaker 1: Okay, So you got involved at a royalty level of

345
00:22:06,920 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 1: rock and roll very young. Did you go to college?

346
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 2: So what briefly happened is that so I took these

347
00:22:19,040 --> 00:22:22,560
Speaker 2: pictures of Joni Mitchell. I brought two prints. I was

348
00:22:22,640 --> 00:22:26,359
Speaker 2: very excited to make these prints at my friend's house

349
00:22:26,359 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 2: in the dark room. I remember going to the laundry

350
00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,040
Speaker 2: room in my parents' house and taking my mom's iron

351
00:22:33,080 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 2: and put ironing the print onto the mountboard. You took

352
00:22:38,280 --> 00:22:41,560
Speaker 2: this sheet of paper that turned into glue under no kidding,

353
00:22:42,000 --> 00:22:44,560
Speaker 2: under the heat of the iron, and then you wound

354
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,080
Speaker 2: up with a mounted print. And I made two of

355
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:49,959
Speaker 2: them and took them down to the coffee house she

356
00:22:50,040 --> 00:22:53,440
Speaker 2: was playing at where I had just taken the pictures

357
00:22:54,080 --> 00:22:57,760
Speaker 2: and asked her to I wanted to give her one

358
00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:03,840
Speaker 2: and would she sign one for me? And she wrote

359
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:08,119
Speaker 2: the Circle Game Forever Joni Mitchell the one that she

360
00:23:08,200 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: gave me. And then about a year so I kept photograph.

361
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,359
Speaker 2: I was the photographer of my newspaper.

362
00:23:17,960 --> 00:23:19,720
Speaker 1: Let me stop you here because I want to ask

363
00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:23,560
Speaker 1: some questions before we get into your actual career. Sure,

364
00:23:23,560 --> 00:23:29,600
Speaker 1: of course, so your parents give your parents give you

365
00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,200
Speaker 1: a brownie camera, When does it click in your brain?

366
00:23:33,280 --> 00:23:37,080
Speaker 1: And when do you get a reflex camera or whatever

367
00:23:37,119 --> 00:23:37,720
Speaker 1: bitter camera?

368
00:23:37,720 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: You get, very good question. What happens is my dad

369
00:23:42,520 --> 00:23:47,200
Speaker 2: gets a really good German single lens reflex camera called

370
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:53,160
Speaker 2: an Exacta, and you know it's it's from my viewpoint,

371
00:23:53,200 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 2: of course, it's like it's much fancier than the camera

372
00:23:55,840 --> 00:23:57,840
Speaker 2: I have. But that's he's I'm a kid and he's,

373
00:23:58,200 --> 00:24:00,800
Speaker 2: you know, an adult, and so he's got this cool camera.

374
00:24:01,440 --> 00:24:05,000
Speaker 2: And at some point I get pretty good at I

375
00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,959
Speaker 2: have a By that point, I have a rangefinder camera,

376
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:13,160
Speaker 2: maybe a Konica rangefinder. That is, you're not looking through

377
00:24:13,160 --> 00:24:16,880
Speaker 2: the lens with his camera. You actually could look through

378
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 2: the lens. And he had two or three lenses that

379
00:24:19,400 --> 00:24:23,119
Speaker 2: you could change. You could have a normal lens, you

380
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:26,159
Speaker 2: could have a slightly telephoto lens, or a slightly wide lens.

381
00:24:26,680 --> 00:24:29,960
Speaker 2: And I love that. I just thought that was amazing,

382
00:24:30,000 --> 00:24:33,919
Speaker 2: and he lent me to his credit, Unlike many dads,

383
00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:37,679
Speaker 2: maybe even me like that. If I were him, I

384
00:24:37,760 --> 00:24:40,159
Speaker 2: probably would have said, hey, son, look here's a camera

385
00:24:40,240 --> 00:24:43,600
Speaker 2: for you. It is better than your Hawkeye, But why

386
00:24:43,600 --> 00:24:47,119
Speaker 2: don't you just use that? Don't touch my camera, right,

387
00:24:49,560 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: But he didn't, And so I learned with a single

388
00:24:52,520 --> 00:24:57,719
Speaker 2: lens reflex, and that's when you get into that. Then

389
00:24:58,000 --> 00:25:00,320
Speaker 2: what you're looking at is very similar to the photo

390
00:25:00,359 --> 00:25:02,399
Speaker 2: you're going to be seeing. You see how what's in

391
00:25:02,480 --> 00:25:06,000
Speaker 2: focus and what's not in focus. It's a very different experience.

392
00:25:06,080 --> 00:25:10,000
Speaker 2: And so I was able to do that. I want

393
00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:15,920
Speaker 2: to say maybe when I was thirteen fourteen, and that

394
00:25:17,040 --> 00:25:21,200
Speaker 2: shooting with that kind of camera really made a difference.

395
00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,399
Speaker 2: For me, and at some point he went on a

396
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:27,640
Speaker 2: business trip to Japan and got me an Asahi Pentax

397
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:31,240
Speaker 2: Spot Mattic, the camera that Ringo was using in Hard

398
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 2: Day's Night, and that became my main camera. And I

399
00:25:37,320 --> 00:25:42,440
Speaker 2: just and then I'll just say briefly, I was the

400
00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:46,680
Speaker 2: yearbook photographer and the newspaper photographer in my junior high school.

401
00:25:47,560 --> 00:25:50,000
Speaker 2: And I learned right away that like, you can't use

402
00:25:50,040 --> 00:25:52,760
Speaker 2: a flash in a class. It's way too distracting to

403
00:25:52,920 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 2: just set off a flashing class. But there's not enough

404
00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,240
Speaker 2: light in there to use a regular speed film. And

405
00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:04,119
Speaker 2: I went to the camera store where the guy was

406
00:26:04,240 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: very helpful to me and said, oh, what you need

407
00:26:06,920 --> 00:26:10,200
Speaker 2: is this thing, this film by code I called Triax.

408
00:26:10,760 --> 00:26:13,800
Speaker 2: You need to use this. The ASA is a four hundred,

409
00:26:14,440 --> 00:26:20,000
Speaker 2: not one hundred or fifty or sixty four. It's four hundred, really, yes,

410
00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: which means it's just very sensitive to light, which meant

411
00:26:22,840 --> 00:26:25,920
Speaker 2: that I could without a flash take people's photos in

412
00:26:26,119 --> 00:26:29,680
Speaker 2: class at school, and when I was in like eighth

413
00:26:29,760 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: grade or you know, I could use it to take

414
00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 2: football practice photos outdoors. But I could shoot, finally for

415
00:26:37,760 --> 00:26:40,200
Speaker 2: the first time, indoors. And that's how I learned to

416
00:26:40,280 --> 00:26:45,040
Speaker 2: shoot with what referred to in photography as available light,

417
00:26:45,560 --> 00:26:48,399
Speaker 2: meaning you're not bringing in any supplemental light, you're just

418
00:26:48,560 --> 00:26:49,520
Speaker 2: using what's available.

419
00:26:50,520 --> 00:26:53,959
Speaker 1: Okay, so I got very good at that. Hey, did

420
00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,600
Speaker 1: you go to public school? Yes, b you know there

421
00:26:58,680 --> 00:27:01,560
Speaker 1: was a photography boom around the turn of the decade

422
00:27:01,600 --> 00:27:04,680
Speaker 1: of sixties into seventies, but you were in early yes,

423
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:08,560
Speaker 1: so it wasn't like schools had dark rooms. How did

424
00:27:08,600 --> 00:27:11,520
Speaker 1: you learn by trial and error? What?

425
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,400
Speaker 2: Amazingly, I will say, I'm sorry to interrupt, No interrupt,

426
00:27:15,440 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 2: how I learned? Okay, how my school actually was the township,

427
00:27:23,400 --> 00:27:26,800
Speaker 2: the tax base of it as a suburb was good

428
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 2: enough that they actually did have a dark room. They

429
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:31,119
Speaker 2: had just put in a dark room a couple of

430
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:36,359
Speaker 2: years before I was there. But I learned at the

431
00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:38,840
Speaker 2: dark room of friends of mine who had set up

432
00:27:38,880 --> 00:27:42,400
Speaker 2: an enlarger and a dark room at their parents' home,

433
00:27:42,720 --> 00:27:45,960
Speaker 2: and they showed me how to develop film, how to

434
00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,760
Speaker 2: put how to develop the negative. So I had several

435
00:27:49,800 --> 00:27:54,360
Speaker 2: friends who did that, and it just became a home thing.

436
00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 2: Like it was amazing to me that you could actually

437
00:27:57,520 --> 00:27:59,840
Speaker 2: it was very, very exciting to know that you could

438
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:04,200
Speaker 2: get a roll of film loaded in your camera, go

439
00:28:04,400 --> 00:28:08,119
Speaker 2: around after school and take pictures of whatever you wanted

440
00:28:08,160 --> 00:28:12,000
Speaker 2: to come back into the dark room, develop the film,

441
00:28:12,200 --> 00:28:15,119
Speaker 2: and then there would be the negatives of the picture

442
00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:20,000
Speaker 2: the pictures you just took, like hanging wet in the

443
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:23,400
Speaker 2: dark room. After you finally processed it, and then after

444
00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:25,600
Speaker 2: it dried, you could put it in the enlarger and

445
00:28:25,760 --> 00:28:28,600
Speaker 2: actually make a print of it. This process to me

446
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,280
Speaker 2: was like magic. You know, this could happen and you

447
00:28:32,359 --> 00:28:34,920
Speaker 2: could do it in a matter of hours and it

448
00:28:35,000 --> 00:28:39,120
Speaker 2: wasn't that complicated. So I really latched onto it. And

449
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:43,400
Speaker 2: I think I still was playing guitar and probably played

450
00:28:43,440 --> 00:28:48,680
Speaker 2: every day, but it became my second love of things

451
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:53,280
Speaker 2: to be doing. And then, like I was saying, when

452
00:28:54,520 --> 00:29:01,360
Speaker 2: my first You'll probably remember this first time I went

453
00:29:01,520 --> 00:29:06,240
Speaker 2: to with my parents to look at records and it

454
00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:11,520
Speaker 2: was at a newly newly made EJ. Corvette's department store

455
00:29:11,560 --> 00:29:12,120
Speaker 2: that didn't.

456
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:15,000
Speaker 1: A lot of records at Corvette.

457
00:29:15,680 --> 00:29:18,120
Speaker 2: Okay, So there I was with my parents the first

458
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 2: time and they're there after seeing Okay, we have to

459
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,240
Speaker 2: go back and say, this would be after seeing the

460
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:28,160
Speaker 2: Beatles perform on Ed Sullivan, like one of the seminal

461
00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:31,240
Speaker 2: moments you probably discussed with ninety percent of your guests,

462
00:29:32,000 --> 00:29:36,080
Speaker 2: where like, what was that like? So as a folky

463
00:29:36,280 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 2: like I said, as a folk student of folk music,

464
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:41,000
Speaker 2: I was like, that's a scene, that's a name. I'm like,

465
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:45,640
Speaker 2: I know what they're doing. It's like, this isn't magic,

466
00:29:46,080 --> 00:29:49,520
Speaker 2: this is so Literally. When I went to my next

467
00:29:49,600 --> 00:29:52,840
Speaker 2: folk music lesson, the guitar teacher and her daughters were like,

468
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:58,080
Speaker 2: no folk music today, I forget that. We are going

469
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,840
Speaker 2: to like can you did you figure out that thing?

470
00:30:00,000 --> 00:30:02,000
Speaker 2: And I want to hold your hand? Right?

471
00:30:02,120 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 1: Did?

472
00:30:03,840 --> 00:30:06,320
Speaker 2: We were like, we were all into it and that

473
00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:09,000
Speaker 2: just set us off onto that whole new trajectory.

474
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:14,800
Speaker 1: Okay, now you talk about shooting Joni Mitchell before we

475
00:30:15,200 --> 00:30:19,000
Speaker 1: talk about that actual event. So were you an avid

476
00:30:19,280 --> 00:30:22,480
Speaker 1: club goer concert goer? How did you end up with the.

477
00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,160
Speaker 2: No, I wasn't at all. I never went to clubs

478
00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:27,520
Speaker 2: and I didn't go to concerts. I never didn't occur

479
00:30:27,640 --> 00:30:31,200
Speaker 2: to me to go. I had friends who would go

480
00:30:31,320 --> 00:30:35,120
Speaker 2: to who went to see the Beatles like a packed

481
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,520
Speaker 2: sports stadium. A couple friends I knew who did that,

482
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:42,800
Speaker 2: who told me they could not hear like a single

483
00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 2: note of the Beatles for the screaming I don't know.

484
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 2: I was a shy kid and I didn't So I

485
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:54,080
Speaker 2: learned to play songs from books from my guitar teacher. Occasionally,

486
00:30:54,240 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: like at those hooton nannies or wing dings, you would

487
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: learn some thing. Let's say, somebody would play a song

488
00:31:02,720 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: that you knew how to play, but they they knew

489
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: another verse, Like what is that verse? I never played?

490
00:31:08,560 --> 00:31:11,120
Speaker 2: Where did you learn that verse? What do you mean?

491
00:31:11,160 --> 00:31:12,880
Speaker 2: Why are you using an A minor there?

492
00:31:13,560 --> 00:31:13,800
Speaker 1: Like that?

493
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:14,880
Speaker 2: That's an E minor?

494
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: What you know?

495
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 2: So you was really a good, good uh lesson in

496
00:31:18,920 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 2: learning songs. And then like I said, uh, like you,

497
00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:29,240
Speaker 2: I'm imagining your ear is you know, glued to AM radio.

498
00:31:30,520 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 2: You're I was like vaguely aware of it. I was not,

499
00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: you know, like Elvis was already in the past. It

500
00:31:37,080 --> 00:31:39,600
Speaker 2: was like it was like that's for my older cousins.

501
00:31:40,000 --> 00:31:45,440
Speaker 2: Not doesn't do much for me. Uh, you know, the

502
00:31:45,520 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 2: first Beatle things were electrifying to me. And also I

503
00:31:49,440 --> 00:31:54,239
Speaker 2: have to go back and just say I think there

504
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:58,000
Speaker 2: was a major, a major slingshot effect. I think that

505
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:02,600
Speaker 2: happened when the death of John Kennedy was so shocking

506
00:32:02,760 --> 00:32:05,280
Speaker 2: to people, to kids my age, who I was a

507
00:32:05,360 --> 00:32:09,160
Speaker 2: Kennedy kid in terms of my outlook and in terms

508
00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 2: of America and being patriotic and what could you do

509
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: for your country? And his youth and his humor we

510
00:32:18,800 --> 00:32:23,520
Speaker 2: as kids like really identified with and to have him

511
00:32:24,440 --> 00:32:29,920
Speaker 2: assassinated like that in a way that previously you only

512
00:32:29,960 --> 00:32:33,720
Speaker 2: heard about things like that going on in third world countries.

513
00:32:34,080 --> 00:32:36,240
Speaker 2: This did not this kind of thing didn't happen in

514
00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 2: our country. It was so disheartening, so sad, tragic the

515
00:32:42,120 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 2: day of and sad for so long, which only happened

516
00:32:48,240 --> 00:32:51,719
Speaker 2: a matter of months before the Beatles played on at Sullivan.

517
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:57,880
Speaker 2: And I feel that wherever the Beatles themselves were coming from,

518
00:32:58,080 --> 00:33:00,640
Speaker 2: in terms of their career at the time, how exciting

519
00:33:00,720 --> 00:33:04,960
Speaker 2: it was for them to come to America, they probably

520
00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:09,600
Speaker 2: at the time didn't quite realize that there was a

521
00:33:09,760 --> 00:33:14,160
Speaker 2: nation of young kids who were really hurting and were

522
00:33:14,320 --> 00:33:20,520
Speaker 2: so needing the kind of up energy and fun and

523
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:26,240
Speaker 2: positive energy that they were putting out there. That it,

524
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:31,320
Speaker 2: like I said, it was like a slingshot effect of

525
00:33:31,400 --> 00:33:37,160
Speaker 2: going from being feeling so sad and heartbroken and what

526
00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:44,600
Speaker 2: happened to our country to this very happy, exuberant kind

527
00:33:44,640 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 2: of energy. And I think that that, you know, began

528
00:33:50,280 --> 00:33:53,920
Speaker 2: in America, a lot of what the sixties became starting

529
00:33:54,000 --> 00:33:54,320
Speaker 2: right there.

530
00:33:55,600 --> 00:34:00,320
Speaker 1: Okay, so the Joney photographs were the main point.

531
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:04,320
Speaker 2: No, there was before I photographed her at the main point,

532
00:34:04,360 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 2: Thank you for asking. This was at a place called

533
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:07,240
Speaker 2: the Second Fret.

534
00:34:07,840 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 1: Okay, the Second Fret. When you went the night Jonie

535
00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:15,319
Speaker 1: was there and you took the photographs. How many times

536
00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,359
Speaker 1: have been to that club previously? None?

537
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,120
Speaker 2: Okay, I only I only went there because I knew

538
00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:26,160
Speaker 2: her name from from hearing Tom Rutt. What happened is

539
00:34:26,280 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 2: you'll appreciate this briefly. Of course, you had to have

540
00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,919
Speaker 2: a transistor radio. When you know, at a certain age,

541
00:34:34,000 --> 00:34:36,359
Speaker 2: when transistor radios come in as a as a kid,

542
00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:38,680
Speaker 2: they're just like taking you into a whole other world.

543
00:34:39,440 --> 00:34:42,640
Speaker 2: I was given at some point a transistor radio with

544
00:34:42,719 --> 00:34:46,959
Speaker 2: a large whip antenna, not the kind of pocket size

545
00:34:47,000 --> 00:34:48,879
Speaker 2: that you would take to school, but a larger one

546
00:34:48,960 --> 00:34:51,400
Speaker 2: that you could have at home. And I was shooting

547
00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: baskets one day in the driveway and I had the

548
00:34:54,120 --> 00:34:57,120
Speaker 2: radio on and I realized, wait a sec, I can

549
00:34:57,200 --> 00:35:00,600
Speaker 2: hear it's sunset and now I I can hear New

550
00:35:00,680 --> 00:35:03,520
Speaker 2: York like clear as day, I can hear Boston, I

551
00:35:03,600 --> 00:35:07,240
Speaker 2: can hear WLS in Chicago. So that whole thing really

552
00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,839
Speaker 2: was another big eye opening thing because instead of only

553
00:35:12,080 --> 00:35:16,440
Speaker 2: being able to hear the records played by your local DJs,

554
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: you could pick up you could hear what the DJ's

555
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:21,759
Speaker 2: were playing in New York and what their pattern was,

556
00:35:21,840 --> 00:35:25,160
Speaker 2: and what their names were and their personas, and so, I,

557
00:35:25,440 --> 00:35:28,520
Speaker 2: you know, really love that. And my favorite station was

558
00:35:28,560 --> 00:35:34,240
Speaker 2: the one called WBZ in Boston that clearly the daytime

559
00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: manager when you know, after five o'clock when he left,

560
00:35:37,800 --> 00:35:42,120
Speaker 2: didn't care what the night shift the like, just just

561
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: didn't put it on, didn't turn his radio on because

562
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:48,719
Speaker 2: they were doing really crazy stuff on the radio. Was

563
00:35:48,800 --> 00:35:52,319
Speaker 2: the first time I heard screaming Jay Hawkins, I put

564
00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,239
Speaker 2: a spell on you like on AM radio if you

565
00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 2: can imagine, right, they would do Stan Freberg ads and

566
00:35:59,600 --> 00:36:02,920
Speaker 2: things like that. So it was a very exciting experience.

567
00:36:03,000 --> 00:36:04,960
Speaker 2: And one day I was listening to it, as I said,

568
00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 2: playing basketball, and and it was a I didn't know

569
00:36:09,120 --> 00:36:10,680
Speaker 2: it was a tape at the time. I thought he

570
00:36:10,800 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 2: was live in the studio. Tom Rush, who I knew

571
00:36:13,440 --> 00:36:15,440
Speaker 2: was a folk singer and whose album one of his

572
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,560
Speaker 2: albums I had came on and said, this is a

573
00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:23,399
Speaker 2: song I just learned from my friend Joni Mitchell. It's

574
00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:26,279
Speaker 2: called the Urge for Going and played this song and

575
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:31,760
Speaker 2: I thought, oh my god, what a great song that is, Like, Wow,

576
00:36:32,080 --> 00:36:38,080
Speaker 2: Joni Mitchell, the Urge for That's just fantastic. And that

577
00:36:38,239 --> 00:36:42,640
Speaker 2: was the first time I heard of her. And then

578
00:36:43,520 --> 00:36:46,920
Speaker 2: she and her husband were playing at the Second Frat

579
00:36:47,239 --> 00:36:51,600
Speaker 2: and they were going to appear at a folk music weekly.

580
00:36:51,680 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 2: Folk music show hosted by someone who's who's went under

581
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,759
Speaker 2: the name Geene Shay Ivan Shane his name was, but

582
00:37:00,880 --> 00:37:04,560
Speaker 2: he was called Gene Shay had a show called Folklore

583
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 2: every Sunday and who played folk music and would also

584
00:37:13,520 --> 00:37:16,399
Speaker 2: UH folk acts that would play at the Second Fret

585
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:19,439
Speaker 2: or the main point would then go to his show

586
00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 2: if they were playing over a weekend, and then play

587
00:37:22,239 --> 00:37:26,640
Speaker 2: be interviewed and then play posician audio or TV audio.

588
00:37:27,400 --> 00:37:31,360
Speaker 2: This is all all all on radio and it was

589
00:37:31,520 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 2: a mono FM uh, And so I.

590
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:39,840
Speaker 1: Got to.

591
00:37:41,560 --> 00:37:45,359
Speaker 2: I was too young to get into this club. Either

592
00:37:45,440 --> 00:37:47,520
Speaker 2: I had homework or I was too young, I don't

593
00:37:47,520 --> 00:37:51,920
Speaker 2: remember which. I couldn't go to the show, but they

594
00:37:51,960 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: were going to be playing at this radio station, so

595
00:37:55,400 --> 00:38:01,080
Speaker 2: I tuned in the radio. My dad had just brought

596
00:38:01,120 --> 00:38:05,359
Speaker 2: home a little micro cassette recorder to replace his dictaphone

597
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 2: and had showed me like how it worked, so I

598
00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,560
Speaker 2: he let's see. I took the micro cassette recorder and

599
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:18,920
Speaker 2: put it next to the speaker of the radio and

600
00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:23,640
Speaker 2: recorded Jony and her husband, Chuck Mitchell doing their set

601
00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,239
Speaker 2: and their interview. And the last thing they did was

602
00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:30,560
Speaker 2: a song called the Circle Game, which was new to her,

603
00:38:30,760 --> 00:38:33,080
Speaker 2: which was which I'd never heard, and I by the

604
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,800
Speaker 2: time the song was over, I was like, I have

605
00:38:36,000 --> 00:38:38,920
Speaker 2: to learn how to play that song right now. That

606
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 2: is the greatest thing I've ever heard. I didn't know about.

607
00:38:43,719 --> 00:38:48,200
Speaker 2: So there's things called tunings and guitar So ninety five

608
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:51,680
Speaker 2: or more percent of the guitar work in the world

609
00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:56,040
Speaker 2: is played in what's called standard tuning, with a strings

610
00:38:56,080 --> 00:38:58,799
Speaker 2: tune in a particular way, and the chords that you're

611
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:02,400
Speaker 2: taught as a guitarist are based on your tuning the strings.

612
00:39:02,440 --> 00:39:05,960
Speaker 2: In that tuning, she was taking the guitar and tuning

613
00:39:06,040 --> 00:39:08,560
Speaker 2: it to a chord like a g chord and then

614
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 2: playing different chords than any of the ones I knew

615
00:39:13,000 --> 00:39:20,279
Speaker 2: in that tuning. And so let's see, briefly, I'd been

616
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:24,880
Speaker 2: studying cryptanalysis, which was code breaking at the time, and

617
00:39:25,320 --> 00:39:27,960
Speaker 2: the logic that you need to figure out how somebody's

618
00:39:28,000 --> 00:39:31,000
Speaker 2: playing something in a tuning is what are all the

619
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:35,640
Speaker 2: open strings? First? Are what notes is? Each string? Is

620
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:38,080
Speaker 2: what I need to figure out. And then once I

621
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:41,600
Speaker 2: figure that out, how what chords is she playing? So

622
00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:45,839
Speaker 2: I taped that performance and I just stayed up till dawn.

623
00:39:46,560 --> 00:39:49,920
Speaker 2: I would have been fourteen to figure out how she

624
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 2: played it. And I did figure it out, like by

625
00:39:52,800 --> 00:39:55,960
Speaker 2: six in the morning. Took me that long, but I

626
00:39:56,040 --> 00:39:58,560
Speaker 2: did figure it out. And so that started me off

627
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:02,759
Speaker 2: in a lifetime of figuring out how to play Joni

628
00:40:02,840 --> 00:40:06,359
Speaker 2: Mitchell songs. And later later when she would forget an

629
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:09,000
Speaker 2: older song, I would go actually and teach it back

630
00:40:09,080 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 2: to her. Back in the seventies, I would do that

631
00:40:13,000 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 2: seventies and eighties.

632
00:40:14,000 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: So how long after that was the gig where you

633
00:40:16,600 --> 00:40:17,440
Speaker 1: took the photos?

634
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 2: Good question. I think that was about that would have

635
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 2: been about well, she was there with her husband. She

636
00:40:26,760 --> 00:40:30,359
Speaker 2: broke up with him right after that, and left where

637
00:40:30,400 --> 00:40:32,640
Speaker 2: they were living in Detroit and moved to New York

638
00:40:33,080 --> 00:40:35,359
Speaker 2: and I saw her. It was really just about now

639
00:40:35,400 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 2: that I'm thinking of It would have been only about

640
00:40:37,480 --> 00:40:41,239
Speaker 2: two or three months later that I started that She's

641
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:46,440
Speaker 2: played at the second Fret and I was able to

642
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:51,920
Speaker 2: get into to literally three sets a night, four of

643
00:40:52,120 --> 00:40:56,640
Speaker 2: maybe you know, twenty five minutes each and about a

644
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:58,160
Speaker 2: dozen people listening.

645
00:41:06,239 --> 00:41:11,360
Speaker 1: Okay, things changed over your career. We're bringing a camera

646
00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:14,239
Speaker 1: to a gig would be an issue. People would stop

647
00:41:14,280 --> 00:41:18,200
Speaker 1: whatever you're going. At age fourteen fifteen, you're bringing your

648
00:41:18,280 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: camera not thinking twice. No one stopped you.

649
00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:23,840
Speaker 2: No, there was no nobody cared. I mean, it's like

650
00:41:23,960 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 2: it's too it's too low level. There's not It's not

651
00:41:27,440 --> 00:41:31,640
Speaker 2: like later. If let's say, if I am going to

652
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,000
Speaker 2: the first rock show that I went and photographed, I

653
00:41:36,080 --> 00:41:38,400
Speaker 2: knew the opening act. They were friends of mine and

654
00:41:38,960 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 2: they were opening for I'm Not Kidding Cream at the

655
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:50,960
Speaker 2: Spectrum in Philadelphia. Later, Ariic Clapton was quoted as saying,

656
00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: this was the great single, greatest Cream concert of all

657
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: time by.

658
00:41:56,000 --> 00:41:57,520
Speaker 1: Far this shell.

659
00:41:58,360 --> 00:42:02,200
Speaker 2: It was on a rotator stage in the middle of

660
00:42:02,280 --> 00:42:09,480
Speaker 2: the arena, and I can remember photographing them as the

661
00:42:09,560 --> 00:42:14,080
Speaker 2: stage is going around waiting for our Clapton, Jack Bruce

662
00:42:14,880 --> 00:42:20,680
Speaker 2: Ginger Baker. It was amazing and I can still remember

663
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,200
Speaker 2: as the stage turned, the huge marshal stack that our

664
00:42:25,320 --> 00:42:30,120
Speaker 2: Claptain was playing through would every thirty seconds or so

665
00:42:30,680 --> 00:42:34,040
Speaker 2: like beam like a like a huge heat ray into

666
00:42:34,120 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 2: my ear. It was so loud, like the loudest thing

667
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,520
Speaker 2: I'd ever heard in my life as I was lifting

668
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:44,719
Speaker 2: my camera up trying to take the pictures. So that

669
00:42:45,040 --> 00:42:47,000
Speaker 2: was very exciting to do that.

670
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:52,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so you give the photos to Jonie, Yes, and

671
00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:57,799
Speaker 1: she signs one. Obviously that's a thrilling moment. Do you say, oh,

672
00:42:57,920 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 1: that was a thrilling moment. You say, I did it once,

673
00:43:00,560 --> 00:43:01,320
Speaker 1: I'll do it again.

674
00:43:02,880 --> 00:43:06,240
Speaker 2: I just thought, well it was I was. We got along,

675
00:43:06,480 --> 00:43:09,239
Speaker 2: and so she was fine for me to come, and

676
00:43:10,239 --> 00:43:13,879
Speaker 2: I saw her again at the second Fret, and then

677
00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:16,800
Speaker 2: the next year, I still meant going to high school.

678
00:43:16,800 --> 00:43:25,719
Speaker 2: I'm in tenth grade. What happened was that she when

679
00:43:25,840 --> 00:43:28,320
Speaker 2: her first album came out, which would have been like

680
00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:32,000
Speaker 2: March of sixty eight, she then could get kicked upstairs

681
00:43:32,040 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 2: to the next level of club, which was the main

682
00:43:34,920 --> 00:43:38,520
Speaker 2: point that you mentioned out on the main Line, a

683
00:43:38,600 --> 00:43:45,680
Speaker 2: nicer club, more seats, and the main Point had only

684
00:43:45,840 --> 00:43:49,080
Speaker 2: only had people there who had a record deal. So

685
00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 2: Joni Mitchell back in the day was not going to

686
00:43:51,760 --> 00:43:54,000
Speaker 2: be They wouldn't have taken her at the at the

687
00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: main Point. But because she had her first album out,

688
00:43:57,719 --> 00:44:02,200
Speaker 2: she could get booked into the main Point. And while

689
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,800
Speaker 2: I was there and so so her fan base was growing.

690
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: I could see, Wow, there's a lot more like this is.

691
00:44:08,680 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 2: There's like three times more to it. Wow, and people

692
00:44:12,719 --> 00:44:15,480
Speaker 2: are into it, they're paying attention. This is like what

693
00:44:15,640 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: had been this very little thing that you know. And

694
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:20,080
Speaker 2: of course back when she was playing the Second Fret,

695
00:44:20,160 --> 00:44:22,400
Speaker 2: nobody had heard of her. I was raving about this

696
00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: person to all all of my friends and anyone else

697
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,480
Speaker 2: who would listen, and I could see that this was

698
00:44:28,600 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: like taking off. And there were college kids from Bryn Marr,

699
00:44:31,680 --> 00:44:37,280
Speaker 2: which is where the Main Point is, right And anyway,

700
00:44:38,719 --> 00:44:42,839
Speaker 2: what happened is in the interim that year, I spent

701
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:44,600
Speaker 2: a lot of time. A friend of mine had a

702
00:44:44,640 --> 00:44:48,360
Speaker 2: tape recorder and he would every time Joni would go

703
00:44:48,520 --> 00:44:52,359
Speaker 2: to that folk music show I talked about with geene Jay,

704
00:44:53,080 --> 00:44:56,960
Speaker 2: she'd play a few songs and we'd record those and

705
00:44:57,040 --> 00:44:58,920
Speaker 2: then I would stay up and figure out how to

706
00:44:59,000 --> 00:45:02,279
Speaker 2: play those songs. So my whole poppy that was like

707
00:45:02,400 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 2: my biggest thrill. I didn't collect baseball cards by then.

708
00:45:07,080 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: I didn't like I just what I you know. The

709
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:11,279
Speaker 2: thing I wanted to do was to figure out how

710
00:45:11,360 --> 00:45:16,640
Speaker 2: Joni Mitchell played her songs. So I did that, and

711
00:45:16,760 --> 00:45:19,520
Speaker 2: she was writing her songs in different tunings by then,

712
00:45:19,960 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 2: so it was very it was it was an exciting

713
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:27,400
Speaker 2: thing for me to do. So by the time I

714
00:45:27,480 --> 00:45:29,520
Speaker 2: went to see her at the main point, after she

715
00:45:29,680 --> 00:45:32,200
Speaker 2: now had her first album come out and she had

716
00:45:32,320 --> 00:45:38,000
Speaker 2: fans from from that album being played after. At first

717
00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 2: I took a picture of her that I remember thinking, God,

718
00:45:43,239 --> 00:45:45,279
Speaker 2: if I got that thing that I just saw, it's

719
00:45:45,360 --> 00:45:46,719
Speaker 2: really going to be good. It's going to be the

720
00:45:46,760 --> 00:45:49,120
Speaker 2: best picture I ever took of her, for sure, And

721
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:54,360
Speaker 2: and I did get it. And so that that happened first,

722
00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:58,160
Speaker 2: and then later a few minutes later, I took out

723
00:45:59,000 --> 00:46:03,279
Speaker 2: a list that i'd of her songs and she said, oh,

724
00:46:03,560 --> 00:46:04,319
Speaker 2: she's very nice.

725
00:46:04,360 --> 00:46:04,600
Speaker 1: Again.

726
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 2: Let's see, I'm sixteen by that point and she is

727
00:46:10,880 --> 00:46:15,759
Speaker 2: nine years older than me, so she's twenty five. Very

728
00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:17,719
Speaker 2: few twenty five year olds have much to say to

729
00:46:17,840 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: six that there's not much going on there. But she

730
00:46:23,120 --> 00:46:25,759
Speaker 2: was very nice, and she says, oh, is that a

731
00:46:25,840 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: list of songs of mine you've heard? And I said, no,

732
00:46:29,480 --> 00:46:33,360
Speaker 2: those are the ones I can play. And her eyes blazed,

733
00:46:34,239 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 2: and she took her guitar by the neck and thrust

734
00:46:36,440 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 2: it at me and said show me. So I took

735
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,560
Speaker 2: the guitar. I retuned it. I was pretty nervous, I'm

736
00:46:46,600 --> 00:46:51,239
Speaker 2: sure I started playing one of her songs. She just

737
00:46:51,360 --> 00:46:55,800
Speaker 2: stared at my hands, like he figured this out. Like

738
00:46:57,040 --> 00:47:00,680
Speaker 2: it blew her mind that this kid, this nature, had

739
00:47:00,719 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 2: figured out her professional secrets, the things that she was

740
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,400
Speaker 2: doing on stage, because she had these very breezy stories

741
00:47:08,480 --> 00:47:10,640
Speaker 2: and stuff she would be talking about as she's retuning

742
00:47:10,719 --> 00:47:14,480
Speaker 2: the guitar to another tuning. Nobody in the audience is

743
00:47:14,560 --> 00:47:18,160
Speaker 2: noticing what she's doing kind of thing. And so the

744
00:47:18,280 --> 00:47:21,120
Speaker 2: fact that I had figured these out, she said, play

745
00:47:21,360 --> 00:47:24,360
Speaker 2: play another one when I got done. So I played

746
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,799
Speaker 2: her a second song. She says, Okay, we are fast

747
00:47:26,880 --> 00:47:33,640
Speaker 2: friends now. And then a few weeks later, a letter

748
00:47:33,760 --> 00:47:37,879
Speaker 2: came from California in my parents' mailbox. Dear Joel, would

749
00:47:37,920 --> 00:47:40,560
Speaker 2: you please come to I'm writing you. Thank you so

750
00:47:40,680 --> 00:47:43,239
Speaker 2: much for sending the Prince. I really love this one.

751
00:47:44,400 --> 00:47:46,080
Speaker 2: I'm writing to ask you, would you please come to

752
00:47:46,200 --> 00:47:49,400
Speaker 2: Carnegie Hall my first concert at Carnegie Hall in New

753
00:47:49,520 --> 00:47:53,320
Speaker 2: York City on February first. So imagine this is February

754
00:47:53,320 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 2: of eleventh grade. Getting this letter, which by the way,

755
00:47:58,640 --> 00:48:03,840
Speaker 2: has a beautiful multi colored pen drawing on construction paper,

756
00:48:04,120 --> 00:48:06,840
Speaker 2: Joni Mitchell drawing on the first part. She folds it

757
00:48:06,920 --> 00:48:08,719
Speaker 2: in half and makes it into a reading card, and

758
00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 2: there's the letter from Joni. Pardon me, a letter from

759
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,080
Speaker 2: her inviting me to Carnegie Hall. So you can imagine

760
00:48:17,120 --> 00:48:24,719
Speaker 2: how exciting that was. I took the train to New York.

761
00:48:24,880 --> 00:48:28,279
Speaker 2: I can remember standing outside the stage store of Carnegie Hall,

762
00:48:30,440 --> 00:48:33,239
Speaker 2: which is still in the same place, and each time

763
00:48:33,280 --> 00:48:36,520
Speaker 2: I've walked by it since then. I remember standing there

764
00:48:36,600 --> 00:48:41,440
Speaker 2: and how nervous I was with my camera bag. And

765
00:48:44,160 --> 00:48:47,680
Speaker 2: I went there and I met her, and her parents

766
00:48:47,719 --> 00:48:51,239
Speaker 2: were there, and her manager, Elliott Roberts, was there, and

767
00:48:51,320 --> 00:48:54,200
Speaker 2: he said, I hope you brought a lot of film tonight,

768
00:48:54,280 --> 00:48:56,200
Speaker 2: because we're recording the show and you're going to do

769
00:48:56,280 --> 00:49:03,040
Speaker 2: the album coverew. So that was very intense and I

770
00:49:03,160 --> 00:49:06,360
Speaker 2: did the best I could shooting her backstage and on stage,

771
00:49:06,480 --> 00:49:12,000
Speaker 2: and it was like a big throne. She did a great, great,

772
00:49:12,680 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 2: great job, like she really rose to the occasion. It

773
00:49:15,800 --> 00:49:18,680
Speaker 2: was nothing like her, folks, like seeing her at a

774
00:49:18,760 --> 00:49:23,160
Speaker 2: little coffee house. The audience went crazy. You can now

775
00:49:23,880 --> 00:49:28,560
Speaker 2: hear pardon me, you can now hear that performance of

776
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:32,759
Speaker 2: hers live at Carnegie Hall. It's been released with I

777
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,239
Speaker 2: was actually on vinyl with my pictures that I'm talking

778
00:49:35,239 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: about that I took as a cover and the inside

779
00:49:37,960 --> 00:49:41,240
Speaker 2: which when I saw that, it was like a dream

780
00:49:41,320 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 2: come true. That it's something that I'd imagined back then.

781
00:49:48,760 --> 00:49:51,800
Speaker 2: I should say. I have to tell you this one story,

782
00:49:51,840 --> 00:49:57,640
Speaker 2: which is when I was fifteen, the summer of Sergeant

783
00:49:57,640 --> 00:50:01,120
Speaker 2: Pepper's I was in a in a summer camp that

784
00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:04,280
Speaker 2: was on wheels, that is, we had two army trucks

785
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 2: and about twenty kids, and we camped at a different

786
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:10,600
Speaker 2: state park or national park every night, and one night

787
00:50:10,880 --> 00:50:14,480
Speaker 2: in the Dakota's, I was there my sleeping bag, staring

788
00:50:14,560 --> 00:50:18,799
Speaker 2: up at the stars, thinking about.

789
00:50:22,440 --> 00:50:23,320
Speaker 1: What am I going to do?

790
00:50:23,880 --> 00:50:26,920
Speaker 2: Like this, You're fifteen, You're starting you have a you know,

791
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,640
Speaker 2: your guidance counselor starts talking about, so, what career are

792
00:50:29,719 --> 00:50:35,840
Speaker 2: you thinking about? So I was thinking about that, and

793
00:50:38,000 --> 00:50:41,320
Speaker 2: as I looked at the stars, I remembered the picture

794
00:50:42,600 --> 00:50:46,200
Speaker 2: that the first picture that I took, not the next one,

795
00:50:46,239 --> 00:50:50,040
Speaker 2: which was really good. But I was looking at that

796
00:50:50,480 --> 00:50:53,160
Speaker 2: first picture. This I hadn't taken that second picture yet,

797
00:50:53,200 --> 00:50:58,520
Speaker 2: this is still sixty seven, pardon me. And I saw

798
00:50:59,040 --> 00:51:02,680
Speaker 2: that picture cropped into a square as an album cover

799
00:51:02,840 --> 00:51:07,960
Speaker 2: with her name handwritten across it across the top, Joni

800
00:51:08,040 --> 00:51:14,759
Speaker 2: Mitchell and the epiphany. I had an epiphany that that's

801
00:51:14,800 --> 00:51:16,880
Speaker 2: what I wanted to do. I wanted to do album

802
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,520
Speaker 2: covers for musicians. I wanted to blend the two things

803
00:51:20,600 --> 00:51:25,080
Speaker 2: that I did together, and I wanted to do photographs

804
00:51:25,120 --> 00:51:25,840
Speaker 2: of musicians.

805
00:51:26,080 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 1: So that's what was my.

806
00:51:30,719 --> 00:51:34,279
Speaker 2: Motivation from when I was fifteen, and I've just been

807
00:51:34,560 --> 00:51:35,480
Speaker 2: continuing to do that.

808
00:51:36,200 --> 00:51:39,080
Speaker 1: Okay, most people have that idea at fifteen, and it's

809
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,719
Speaker 1: purely a dream. You'd already had some success. So what

810
00:51:43,000 --> 00:51:45,640
Speaker 1: was the next step after the Carnegie Hall shows?

811
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,640
Speaker 2: Well, let's see. The next week, I was asked to

812
00:51:51,680 --> 00:51:55,319
Speaker 2: photograph Neil Young and Crazy Horse at their first East

813
00:51:55,400 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 2: Coast show at the Bitter End, and then I was

814
00:51:59,120 --> 00:52:02,439
Speaker 2: asked to photo David geff Elliet said, I have a friend,

815
00:52:02,520 --> 00:52:08,200
Speaker 2: David Geffen who's managing a career of a singer named

816
00:52:08,239 --> 00:52:11,160
Speaker 2: Laura Nero, And I was like, I know, Laura, I love.

817
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,680
Speaker 2: I had ELI in the fifteenth Thirteenth Confession album, which

818
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:17,840
Speaker 2: I just flipped out about. I just thought I was

819
00:52:18,000 --> 00:52:21,520
Speaker 2: listening to the post Dylan singer songwriters a lot by then,

820
00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:25,120
Speaker 2: and she was a big I loved her records. And

821
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:27,319
Speaker 2: she said, so could you come to New York again

822
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:31,759
Speaker 2: and photograph Laura? Meet Laura and take some photos of her.

823
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 2: So that was my next two weekends, after Carnegie Hall,

824
00:52:36,719 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 2: Neil and Crazy Horse at the Binner End, and then

825
00:52:38,840 --> 00:52:45,040
Speaker 2: Laura Nero at David Geffen's apartment during a blizzard overlooking

826
00:52:45,120 --> 00:52:47,680
Speaker 2: Central Park as she played the grand piano in David's

827
00:52:47,680 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 2: apartment doing not only songs from the ELI and the

828
00:52:53,200 --> 00:52:56,239
Speaker 2: Thirteenth Confession album that I knew, but songs that she

829
00:52:56,400 --> 00:53:02,000
Speaker 2: was writing for her next album, New York Tenderbury. After

830
00:53:02,160 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 2: those three weeks, the whole issue about likes, college preparation

831
00:53:07,360 --> 00:53:10,640
Speaker 2: and what all of that like sort of receded like

832
00:53:12,040 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 2: in importance for me because it was like, yeah, yeah,

833
00:53:15,040 --> 00:53:17,759
Speaker 2: I'll get to that whatever. This is like so much

834
00:53:17,800 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 2: more interesting to me. So that's how that worked. That

835
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:23,879
Speaker 2: would have been like starting in nineteen sixty nine.

836
00:53:24,080 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: Okay, you're a teenager. As they say, Lauren Nero became

837
00:53:29,800 --> 00:53:32,440
Speaker 1: bigger with the New York tend to Berry, but she

838
00:53:32,520 --> 00:53:35,840
Speaker 1: was pretty big already. She was yeh, how did you

839
00:53:36,120 --> 00:53:40,200
Speaker 1: cope emotionally? David Geffen was not of the stature that

840
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:43,000
Speaker 1: he used today. But you're in these environments you had

841
00:53:43,080 --> 00:53:47,239
Speaker 1: teenagers twenty six. Are you anxious or are you saying?

842
00:53:47,280 --> 00:53:52,880
Speaker 1: You know? This is my good question, you know, because.

843
00:53:54,600 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: Because Joni was so accepting of me and didn't just

844
00:53:58,000 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: be like get out of here, kid.

845
00:54:01,680 --> 00:54:02,360
Speaker 1: Uh. That was.

846
00:54:02,920 --> 00:54:08,400
Speaker 2: And so imagine if you're meeting Jonie and her new boyfriend,

847
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:13,160
Speaker 2: Graham Nash, who's just come from the Hollies, who's left

848
00:54:13,680 --> 00:54:16,440
Speaker 2: the Hollies, whose voice I know really well from listening

849
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:20,160
Speaker 2: to the radio. So I'm meeting him, and who says,

850
00:54:20,800 --> 00:54:22,800
Speaker 2: can you teach me how to take pictures like you

851
00:54:22,920 --> 00:54:27,080
Speaker 2: do and like to print make prints like this? Sure, Graham,

852
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:30,239
Speaker 2: I'd love to. And meanwhile, out in the hallways is

853
00:54:30,400 --> 00:54:35,239
Speaker 2: his friend David Crosby, Toni's ex boyfriend who had been

854
00:54:35,320 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 2: her boyfriend previously, who's who's in the hallway, And the

855
00:54:40,320 --> 00:54:42,840
Speaker 2: two of them are going to be starting a group

856
00:54:42,960 --> 00:54:46,240
Speaker 2: together that they're going to be going into the studio

857
00:54:46,320 --> 00:54:50,920
Speaker 2: in about a week to start the recording of So

858
00:54:53,000 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 2: by the way, after the Carnegie Honk concert, we go

859
00:54:55,760 --> 00:55:04,880
Speaker 2: to Levenhal, the promoter's apartment, who is managing all the

860
00:55:04,960 --> 00:55:08,000
Speaker 2: folkies up to that point and was still Judy Collins manager.

861
00:55:08,760 --> 00:55:14,120
Speaker 2: And I was talking to Joni when she at the

862
00:55:14,160 --> 00:55:19,000
Speaker 2: party when she looks over my shoulder and says, oh, Leonard,

863
00:55:19,800 --> 00:55:22,680
Speaker 2: you must meet my friend Joel. He's really a genius.

864
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,759
Speaker 2: And I turn around and it's Leonard Cohen. I have

865
00:55:24,960 --> 00:55:27,840
Speaker 2: just finished reading his book of poetry. I think he

866
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:31,600
Speaker 2: walks on water. When she says, you know, he's really

867
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:34,320
Speaker 2: a genius, I want to shrink to the size of

868
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:36,759
Speaker 2: the head of a pin because I'm actually in the

869
00:55:36,800 --> 00:55:40,560
Speaker 2: presence of two actual geniuses, and I just feel like

870
00:55:41,280 --> 00:55:44,680
Speaker 2: this kid, this little kid who's like, I'm going to school.

871
00:55:44,800 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: I don't even what No, I'm not, You're the geniuses here.

872
00:55:51,480 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 2: So that was quite an amazing thing. And then I

873
00:55:56,560 --> 00:56:00,360
Speaker 2: didn't even like in New York, of course we have

874
00:56:00,440 --> 00:56:02,279
Speaker 2: to have an after show. Not only do I have

875
00:56:02,360 --> 00:56:04,000
Speaker 2: to have the party after the show, we have to

876
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:07,560
Speaker 2: have a party after that party. So everybody gets up

877
00:56:08,400 --> 00:56:10,399
Speaker 2: and we all go down to the Bitter End where

878
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:15,000
Speaker 2: the Everly Brothers are playing, and in the audience, I'm

879
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 2: introduced to Bob Dylan, who has brought like a couple

880
00:56:19,239 --> 00:56:22,719
Speaker 2: songs to play for the Everly Brothers. Unbeknows to me,

881
00:56:23,239 --> 00:56:25,160
Speaker 2: but in other words, by the time I get back

882
00:56:25,239 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 2: to home room, like after I leave New York and

883
00:56:29,400 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 2: take the three am Trailways bus after all of this

884
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 2: on the Sunday night, to like get back after this

885
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:43,320
Speaker 2: heady experience, I finally, you know, take take the I

886
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:45,440
Speaker 2: take actually a bus back and then I get the

887
00:56:45,520 --> 00:56:48,080
Speaker 2: subway out to the suburbs. And then I've got to

888
00:56:48,200 --> 00:56:50,719
Speaker 2: run to get my books for the school and then

889
00:56:50,760 --> 00:56:53,160
Speaker 2: I got to run for the school bus and collapse

890
00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: on the school bus. And I get to the home room,

891
00:56:55,120 --> 00:56:59,359
Speaker 2: I'm like, I've like had like a couple hours sleep.

892
00:57:00,280 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 2: The kid next to me says, so what did you

893
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:13,279
Speaker 2: do this weekend? I said, you wouldn't believe me if

894
00:57:13,280 --> 00:57:19,960
Speaker 2: I told you so, that sets me up, and that

895
00:57:20,720 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 2: leads me into my adult life.

896
00:57:22,560 --> 00:57:27,400
Speaker 1: Well, okay, you're in high school, you're doing this. Most

897
00:57:27,440 --> 00:57:31,600
Speaker 1: of the connections seemed to come from Joni Mitchell, Elliott Roberts,

898
00:57:31,760 --> 00:57:32,920
Speaker 1: David Geffen.

899
00:57:32,840 --> 00:57:33,320
Speaker 2: Neil Young.

900
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:37,959
Speaker 1: This point in time, especially at this point in time,

901
00:57:40,200 --> 00:57:44,720
Speaker 1: it was not seen as a lucrative career shooting rock photos.

902
00:57:45,280 --> 00:57:47,400
Speaker 2: Oh no, no it was. It was in fact, my

903
00:57:47,560 --> 00:57:53,080
Speaker 2: guidance counselor wanted to persuade me from pursuing the career,

904
00:57:53,280 --> 00:57:56,160
Speaker 2: not even as forget the rock part of it, that

905
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,440
Speaker 2: would be absolutely life forgetting Well, there's no money there

906
00:57:59,520 --> 00:58:01,360
Speaker 2: for sure. But if you just want to be a

907
00:58:01,440 --> 00:58:04,640
Speaker 2: professional photographer and stead up a studio and take portraits

908
00:58:04,680 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 2: of you know, of high school kids, or you know,

909
00:58:08,760 --> 00:58:11,880
Speaker 2: be an actual professional photographer, Like, how's that looking for you?

910
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: How much?

911
00:58:12,600 --> 00:58:15,040
Speaker 2: You know, it's like that's not really you really don't

912
00:58:15,040 --> 00:58:19,680
Speaker 2: want to do that. You could be your sat score,

913
00:58:19,800 --> 00:58:22,680
Speaker 2: You could be a lawyer, you could be a doctor,

914
00:58:22,760 --> 00:58:25,320
Speaker 2: you could be whatever you literally, you could be whatever

915
00:58:25,400 --> 00:58:28,320
Speaker 2: you want to be. So don't get hung up on this.

916
00:58:28,480 --> 00:58:31,520
Speaker 2: Photography is a nice hobby kind of thing.

917
00:58:39,280 --> 00:58:44,000
Speaker 1: Okay, so these first Crosbie Stills in Nash album comes

918
00:58:44,000 --> 00:58:46,360
Speaker 1: out in sixty nine, after the gold Rush comes in

919
00:58:46,520 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 1: fall of seventy seventy. You graduate from high school in

920
00:58:51,480 --> 00:58:54,160
Speaker 1: seventy in May or June of seventy.

921
00:58:54,880 --> 00:58:56,880
Speaker 2: In June or seven, first week of June.

922
00:58:57,120 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: What happens for you the following fall.

923
00:59:00,600 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 2: Well before the fall. What happens is the day after

924
00:59:03,880 --> 00:59:06,680
Speaker 2: I graduate high school, and that first week of June,

925
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 2: on the Monday night, I get on a train to

926
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:13,880
Speaker 2: go to New York to photograph Crosby Stills Nashing Young

927
00:59:14,720 --> 00:59:17,320
Speaker 2: at the Filmore East. They're doing like a residency at

928
00:59:17,360 --> 00:59:22,040
Speaker 2: the Filmore East. I have never seen them before. They

929
00:59:22,080 --> 00:59:24,520
Speaker 2: had been there in nineteen six September of sixty nine,

930
00:59:24,680 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 2: I wasn't there. This is the first time that I

931
00:59:28,720 --> 00:59:29,520
Speaker 2: got to see them.

932
00:59:30,480 --> 00:59:35,760
Speaker 1: That was very Let's see.

933
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,920
Speaker 2: I was so impressed by their musicianship and that they

934
00:59:40,000 --> 00:59:45,920
Speaker 2: could be so fluent on acoustic and electric guitars really

935
00:59:46,000 --> 00:59:48,200
Speaker 2: kind of blew my mind. How good Stephen and Neil,

936
00:59:48,800 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 2: all of them, and Crosby doing triad and winevere on guitar.

937
00:59:54,040 --> 01:00:01,520
Speaker 2: You're like, what, So all of it was really remarkable,

938
01:00:01,560 --> 01:00:08,200
Speaker 2: and I stayed there for that week to photograph them,

939
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 2: and during the first couple of days, I took a

940
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,920
Speaker 2: walk with Neil. We were going to sound check at

941
01:00:15,000 --> 01:00:19,320
Speaker 2: the film Wore and Graham and I with Neil were

942
01:00:19,360 --> 01:00:26,240
Speaker 2: walking down the streets in We were actually on Thompson

943
01:00:26,320 --> 01:00:32,680
Speaker 2: Street and I looked down the sidewalk and saw a small,

944
01:00:33,880 --> 01:00:37,960
Speaker 2: older woman with very bright eyes. It really struck me

945
01:00:38,280 --> 01:00:41,200
Speaker 2: coming towards us on the sidewalk, and I just for

946
01:00:41,320 --> 01:00:43,400
Speaker 2: some reason, I stepped back and I wanted to get

947
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:46,040
Speaker 2: the moment that she crossed Neil. I don't know why,

948
01:00:46,200 --> 01:00:49,080
Speaker 2: but I did. Boom click, I got the moment that

949
01:00:49,160 --> 01:00:54,160
Speaker 2: they passed. After photographing all those shows, I didn't think

950
01:00:54,200 --> 01:00:56,920
Speaker 2: about it twice. I was thinking more about the performance

951
01:00:56,960 --> 01:01:00,360
Speaker 2: shots I was doing, and it was a very shot,

952
01:01:00,440 --> 01:01:05,440
Speaker 2: so many pictures ever in my life. And when I

953
01:01:05,520 --> 01:01:08,840
Speaker 2: got in the dark room and was got to that shot,

954
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,880
Speaker 2: I was looking forward to seeing if I'd gotten the

955
01:01:12,080 --> 01:01:14,800
Speaker 2: moment that they passed. It was a little bit out

956
01:01:14,840 --> 01:01:18,240
Speaker 2: of focus. I was focused more on the lady than

957
01:01:18,280 --> 01:01:21,760
Speaker 2: I was Neil, which I see things very crisply, and

958
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:28,360
Speaker 2: it bothered me. So I applied a strange technique called

959
01:01:28,400 --> 01:01:32,280
Speaker 2: pseudo solarization which you turn in what you turn on

960
01:01:32,400 --> 01:01:34,560
Speaker 2: a bright white light just for an instant while the

961
01:01:34,640 --> 01:01:37,400
Speaker 2: print is developing. This is the thing you're never supposed

962
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,000
Speaker 2: to do in a dark room. Of course, when you

963
01:01:39,480 --> 01:01:41,480
Speaker 2: have white light in a dark room, you'll ruin the

964
01:01:41,560 --> 01:01:43,520
Speaker 2: print if you leave it on long enough. But if

965
01:01:43,560 --> 01:01:46,640
Speaker 2: you just put it on for a second, half the

966
01:01:46,720 --> 01:01:50,000
Speaker 2: print days positive and half of its days negative, you'll

967
01:01:50,040 --> 01:01:52,520
Speaker 2: never be able to duplicate what it does. And it

968
01:01:52,600 --> 01:02:02,120
Speaker 2: turns into a very surreal kind of intense graphic and

969
01:02:03,680 --> 01:02:07,080
Speaker 2: it sharpens things as it does that. So I did that,

970
01:02:07,440 --> 01:02:11,479
Speaker 2: and I got the looked at the print of it again.

971
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:15,040
Speaker 2: It's called a solarized print, and I just thought that's

972
01:02:15,200 --> 01:02:18,000
Speaker 2: way more intense than the shot looks on its own.

973
01:02:18,360 --> 01:02:20,240
Speaker 2: I'm just going to put that in the stack of print.

974
01:02:20,320 --> 01:02:23,520
Speaker 2: That's the one he should see. So when I after

975
01:02:23,760 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 2: photographing them at the film More East, and then spending

976
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:32,440
Speaker 2: days developing the film, and then days proofing making contact sheets,

977
01:02:32,680 --> 01:02:35,560
Speaker 2: and then looking at the contact sheets and making prints,

978
01:02:36,040 --> 01:02:38,760
Speaker 2: so that when they came back to Philadelphia, I would

979
01:02:38,760 --> 01:02:41,640
Speaker 2: have a box done of prints that I could show

980
01:02:41,720 --> 01:02:43,840
Speaker 2: them all show the band like what I had done.

981
01:02:47,160 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: So I I did that.

982
01:02:51,720 --> 01:02:58,280
Speaker 2: It was kind of exhausting. I assumed I had a

983
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:02,040
Speaker 2: I had a vision of the band very much like

984
01:03:03,200 --> 01:03:06,240
Speaker 2: in my mind's eye. It was like, Oh, these guys

985
01:03:06,280 --> 01:03:07,920
Speaker 2: are on tour, so they must like what do they do?

986
01:03:08,120 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 2: Like they get like a big, big suite or something,

987
01:03:10,240 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 2: and they all like it. It's like the Beatles in Help,

988
01:03:12,520 --> 01:03:14,640
Speaker 2: where they just have like a row houses or something

989
01:03:14,720 --> 01:03:18,720
Speaker 2: like that. No, they're each in their own hotel room separately,

990
01:03:18,760 --> 01:03:20,640
Speaker 2: and I've got to go from one room to the

991
01:03:20,800 --> 01:03:24,520
Speaker 2: next with my photos to show them this thing.

992
01:03:25,480 --> 01:03:29,520
Speaker 1: And so when I.

993
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,200
Speaker 2: Showed the Prince to Neil, each of them, I was

994
01:03:34,240 --> 01:03:37,840
Speaker 2: only showing prints of themselves nobody. I figured even then,

995
01:03:38,640 --> 01:03:41,120
Speaker 2: like David doesn't need to see pictures of Stephen. Yes,

996
01:03:41,160 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 2: he can see the group shots and stuff, but on

997
01:03:43,360 --> 01:03:45,840
Speaker 2: the individual stuff, I'm just going to show each guy

998
01:03:45,960 --> 01:03:48,880
Speaker 2: their own things. So here's the shot of Neil passing

999
01:03:48,960 --> 01:03:54,520
Speaker 2: the woman with a little print this big, and he

1000
01:03:54,640 --> 01:03:58,240
Speaker 2: stares at it for a few seconds and then he

1001
01:03:58,320 --> 01:04:00,280
Speaker 2: looks up at me and says, that's my album cover.

1002
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:06,920
Speaker 2: And I thought, okay, Joel, don't get too excited, because

1003
01:04:07,200 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 2: these guys changed their mind all the time and he

1004
01:04:10,200 --> 01:04:13,080
Speaker 2: might think that now so it's really cool and he

1005
01:04:13,200 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 2: said that, but don't go nuts about it, okay, But

1006
01:04:19,320 --> 01:04:22,840
Speaker 2: it turned out that it was and that was my

1007
01:04:22,920 --> 01:04:25,160
Speaker 2: first album cover. So back to my first week of

1008
01:04:25,600 --> 01:04:30,320
Speaker 2: classes of going to Madison, Wisconsin, because I was had

1009
01:04:30,360 --> 01:04:32,680
Speaker 2: been convinced that like, no, I can't just I'm still

1010
01:04:32,680 --> 01:04:34,600
Speaker 2: going to have to go to college. I can't just

1011
01:04:34,720 --> 01:04:37,840
Speaker 2: do this photography thing, like you know, that's no, no, no,

1012
01:04:37,960 --> 01:04:39,960
Speaker 2: You're just not going to make any money. And even

1013
01:04:40,000 --> 01:04:42,120
Speaker 2: though it's lots of fun and wouldn't it be great

1014
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:47,000
Speaker 2: if you could do it, but no. So there I

1015
01:04:47,080 --> 01:04:53,320
Speaker 2: am at school and after the gold Rush album comes

1016
01:04:53,360 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 2: out that week, I go down to the record store.

1017
01:04:56,440 --> 01:04:59,600
Speaker 2: There's like fifty of them on the floor with my

1018
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 2: picture on the front and on the back and on

1019
01:05:03,160 --> 01:05:08,560
Speaker 2: the inside, and I'm like shocked. It was like I

1020
01:05:08,760 --> 01:05:12,080
Speaker 2: just took that picture like months ago. That was I

1021
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:16,200
Speaker 2: did that, and now it's in shrink wrap with all

1022
01:05:16,240 --> 01:05:20,320
Speaker 2: the other albums on the floor of this record store.

1023
01:05:21,800 --> 01:05:23,800
Speaker 2: And then I look up and there's a poster of

1024
01:05:23,920 --> 01:05:26,520
Speaker 2: another shot of Neil that Warner's is put out as

1025
01:05:26,520 --> 01:05:31,640
Speaker 2: a promotional thing. Anyway, I call Elliott up and I'm like, Elliott,

1026
01:05:31,680 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 2: I just saw the It's like, can I send them

1027
01:05:34,840 --> 01:05:38,800
Speaker 2: a bill for this short jowel? Of course. Just let's see.

1028
01:05:38,800 --> 01:05:41,160
Speaker 2: You have the front and the back and the inside.

1029
01:05:41,440 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 2: Each one of those should be five hundred dollars. Joel,

1030
01:05:43,600 --> 01:05:47,240
Speaker 2: you send Warner Brothers a bill for fifteen hundred dollars.

1031
01:05:47,720 --> 01:05:50,920
Speaker 2: Now fifteen hundred dollars in nineteen seventy when you're a

1032
01:05:51,040 --> 01:05:53,360
Speaker 2: freshman in college and you're like, am I going to

1033
01:05:53,440 --> 01:05:55,400
Speaker 2: buy something for two dollars and twenty five cents or

1034
01:05:55,440 --> 01:05:56,760
Speaker 2: two dollars in a day? You know what I mean,

1035
01:05:57,200 --> 01:05:59,919
Speaker 2: It's insane. You might as well say like, I'm giving

1036
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:03,280
Speaker 2: you like two million dollars or something. It was really

1037
01:06:03,520 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 2: quite crazy.

1038
01:06:04,440 --> 01:06:04,960
Speaker 1: And that.

1039
01:06:06,480 --> 01:06:11,080
Speaker 2: Combined with that this was this it's it's now there.

1040
01:06:11,360 --> 01:06:13,880
Speaker 2: It's like, wait a second, this is going to look

1041
01:06:13,960 --> 01:06:16,200
Speaker 2: like this around the world. They're going to have this

1042
01:06:16,320 --> 01:06:23,720
Speaker 2: album in France, in England was really like whoa, whoa, whoa.

1043
01:06:26,480 --> 01:06:30,400
Speaker 2: And then Joni called in my dorm room. If you

1044
01:06:30,480 --> 01:06:35,480
Speaker 2: can imagine the phone ringing, ye, Joni called and said, hey,

1045
01:06:35,560 --> 01:06:38,440
Speaker 2: could you I need some photos done? Could you come

1046
01:06:38,520 --> 01:06:43,800
Speaker 2: out like next weekend to do some photos of me

1047
01:06:45,080 --> 01:06:49,840
Speaker 2: at my house. Well, Joned, I mean, you know, I

1048
01:06:50,040 --> 01:06:54,120
Speaker 2: just I just started college. Okay, but you know what

1049
01:06:54,280 --> 01:06:57,200
Speaker 2: if if I leave on Friday, if I leave Friday

1050
01:06:57,320 --> 01:06:59,600
Speaker 2: night and then like I can shoot, I'll get there

1051
01:06:59,640 --> 01:07:03,040
Speaker 2: on Friday and then we can maybe shoot Saturday Sunday.

1052
01:07:03,080 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 2: But I've got to leave like early Monday morning because

1053
01:07:05,280 --> 01:07:09,360
Speaker 2: i got class to go back to like on Monday. Sure,

1054
01:07:09,520 --> 01:07:10,400
Speaker 2: sure that sounds great.

1055
01:07:11,560 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: So I did.

1056
01:07:12,680 --> 01:07:15,880
Speaker 2: I you know, it's like around October, first end of September,

1057
01:07:17,240 --> 01:07:20,480
Speaker 2: snow flurries in Madison, Wisconsin. I'm in a dorm room,

1058
01:07:21,240 --> 01:07:28,320
Speaker 2: like one of a series of dorms. I'm a dorm complex,

1059
01:07:28,440 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 2: five different dormitories. I was told that we were being

1060
01:07:31,720 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 2: fed by the second largest kitchen in North America after

1061
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:43,120
Speaker 2: the one at the Pentagon. Forty thousand undergraduates. Forty thousand undergraduates. Okay,

1062
01:07:45,520 --> 01:07:48,680
Speaker 2: the floor of my dorm is filled with Wisconsin beer

1063
01:07:48,840 --> 01:07:52,560
Speaker 2: drinking jocks with perhaps blue ribbon posters on their doors

1064
01:07:53,280 --> 01:07:53,840
Speaker 2: kind of thing.

1065
01:07:54,480 --> 01:07:56,800
Speaker 1: Right, And.

1066
01:07:58,920 --> 01:08:01,520
Speaker 2: I leave to you know, for the weekend to go

1067
01:08:01,600 --> 01:08:05,120
Speaker 2: to Los Angeles. It's Santa Anna wins. It's eighty five

1068
01:08:05,240 --> 01:08:09,440
Speaker 2: degrees breezy, and now you're going to go to Laurel

1069
01:08:09,520 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 2: Canyon and meet Gary Burden, the art director, and Henry Gilts,

1070
01:08:13,480 --> 01:08:16,200
Speaker 2: the photographer who's also going to be shooting at her

1071
01:08:16,400 --> 01:08:21,519
Speaker 2: at the same session. And these are the pictures of Joni,

1072
01:08:21,760 --> 01:08:23,680
Speaker 2: like leaning out the window that you see with our

1073
01:08:23,720 --> 01:08:27,080
Speaker 2: house in the green paint that Henry's came out much

1074
01:08:27,200 --> 01:08:32,360
Speaker 2: much before minded. But anyway, that was my intro to that.

1075
01:08:32,760 --> 01:08:37,120
Speaker 2: And to make a long story short, Jonie asked me

1076
01:08:37,280 --> 01:08:40,640
Speaker 2: to stay. My parents dropped me off on a to

1077
01:08:40,760 --> 01:08:43,160
Speaker 2: go on an around the world trip. They got me,

1078
01:08:43,360 --> 01:08:45,160
Speaker 2: they were like, okay, we're going to take you to Madison.

1079
01:08:45,520 --> 01:08:48,360
Speaker 2: Here's your stuff everything. Okay, see you later. We're going

1080
01:08:48,439 --> 01:08:50,639
Speaker 2: to be off. We'll talk to you in a few weeks.

1081
01:08:51,400 --> 01:08:54,439
Speaker 2: And all of this happened during that time, so there

1082
01:08:54,520 --> 01:08:55,920
Speaker 2: was nobody to call nobody.

1083
01:08:56,160 --> 01:08:56,760
Speaker 1: I just did it.

1084
01:08:57,200 --> 01:09:01,439
Speaker 2: And and then Joni said, hey, could you could you

1085
01:09:01,520 --> 01:09:03,479
Speaker 2: house in my place? Like while I'm in Europe with

1086
01:09:03,560 --> 01:09:06,559
Speaker 2: James Taylor. She was James Taylor was her boyfriend at

1087
01:09:06,600 --> 01:09:12,040
Speaker 2: the time, and she was writing the Blue Album when

1088
01:09:12,080 --> 01:09:16,559
Speaker 2: I was when I was there, and then they both left,

1089
01:09:16,720 --> 01:09:20,439
Speaker 2: she and they went to England where you have those

1090
01:09:20,479 --> 01:09:23,800
Speaker 2: beautiful recordings that you and I would have heard first

1091
01:09:23,880 --> 01:09:30,600
Speaker 2: on that bootleg of Joni and James right. And so

1092
01:09:31,479 --> 01:09:38,439
Speaker 2: I wound up being able to rent a house into

1093
01:09:38,560 --> 01:09:41,760
Speaker 2: Panga and work for the art director as his assistant.

1094
01:09:42,560 --> 01:09:45,880
Speaker 2: And that began my I never went back. I only

1095
01:09:45,960 --> 01:09:49,559
Speaker 2: went back to I only went back. I forfeited the tuition,

1096
01:09:50,600 --> 01:09:52,920
Speaker 2: and I went back and picked up all my stuff

1097
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:54,360
Speaker 2: and moved out to California.

1098
01:09:55,200 --> 01:09:58,680
Speaker 1: And what did your parents say when they found out? Right?

1099
01:09:58,760 --> 01:10:01,280
Speaker 2: Well, so my parents where like, You've got to come

1100
01:10:01,320 --> 01:10:04,240
Speaker 2: back here right now, like they came back to Philadelphia.

1101
01:10:04,840 --> 01:10:07,000
Speaker 2: So I had to explain to them what okay, okay.

1102
01:10:07,479 --> 01:10:10,160
Speaker 2: Now most parents would be like, you get your ass

1103
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:12,720
Speaker 2: back in that school, and now you can go and

1104
01:10:12,800 --> 01:10:15,680
Speaker 2: get a job since you forfeited your tuition, you know

1105
01:10:15,720 --> 01:10:17,519
Speaker 2: what I mean. It was the big kind of thing

1106
01:10:17,600 --> 01:10:22,040
Speaker 2: to have done. And they just said, okay, I can't

1107
01:10:22,080 --> 01:10:24,200
Speaker 2: believe you did this. But we know these guys and

1108
01:10:24,280 --> 01:10:26,719
Speaker 2: they're real Like they had met Elliott and they'd met Jonie.

1109
01:10:26,760 --> 01:10:28,760
Speaker 2: They were like they were they were okay with me

1110
01:10:28,880 --> 01:10:30,720
Speaker 2: hanging out with you. They weren't. I was not in

1111
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:33,439
Speaker 2: a crash pad in the hate Ashbury okay, like things

1112
01:10:33,479 --> 01:10:37,479
Speaker 2: were better than that, but you know, you got to

1113
01:10:37,520 --> 01:10:40,559
Speaker 2: go to college, so we want you to go. Well,

1114
01:10:40,720 --> 01:10:43,439
Speaker 2: I just want to learn photography, Okay, well I want

1115
01:10:43,439 --> 01:10:46,360
Speaker 2: you to go to all you go to the art schools,

1116
01:10:46,560 --> 01:10:50,120
Speaker 2: like go to the places that have photography courses in

1117
01:10:50,280 --> 01:10:53,439
Speaker 2: Los Angeles and like figure out which one you can

1118
01:10:53,479 --> 01:10:56,000
Speaker 2: go to, because we want you to be back in school.

1119
01:10:56,640 --> 01:11:04,160
Speaker 2: So I went to four different colleges, including the new

1120
01:11:04,800 --> 01:11:12,360
Speaker 2: cal Arts which had just opened, and I just what

1121
01:11:12,520 --> 01:11:14,840
Speaker 2: I for me. I just said, you know, I really

1122
01:11:14,880 --> 01:11:17,720
Speaker 2: don't need these people to teach me how to do this.

1123
01:11:17,920 --> 01:11:22,040
Speaker 2: I can do this already, and they're concentrating on technical,

1124
01:11:22,560 --> 01:11:25,679
Speaker 2: on technique. But their stuff is like it has no soul,

1125
01:11:26,200 --> 01:11:28,000
Speaker 2: it's not they're not doing what I want to do.

1126
01:11:28,840 --> 01:11:31,599
Speaker 2: I can't learn from these people. That's how I felt.

1127
01:11:32,240 --> 01:11:37,360
Speaker 2: And they let me move to Tipanga and I got

1128
01:11:37,560 --> 01:11:40,040
Speaker 2: a job working as an assistant for the art director

1129
01:11:40,760 --> 01:11:46,720
Speaker 2: and that then then just kept doing more photographs, like oh,

1130
01:11:46,840 --> 01:11:50,799
Speaker 2: we're starting asylum records, you do photograph Judy cell or whatever.

1131
01:11:51,360 --> 01:11:54,520
Speaker 2: That was how I just started working as a photographer.

1132
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:59,080
Speaker 1: Then was it you know the crossby stools Nashy Nung tour.

1133
01:11:59,160 --> 01:12:02,599
Speaker 1: The reference at the time was seventy four. You start

1134
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:07,559
Speaker 1: going to LA in October seventy Is it pretty steady

1135
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:10,479
Speaker 1: for that period of time or they're ups and downs.

1136
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:16,800
Speaker 2: Well, if you're a freelance of anything, it's going to

1137
01:12:16,840 --> 01:12:20,560
Speaker 2: be up and down and it's going to be unpredictable.

1138
01:12:22,240 --> 01:12:22,680
Speaker 1: But I.

1139
01:12:24,880 --> 01:12:27,320
Speaker 2: Enjoyed it, and I didn't need to. I wasn't paying

1140
01:12:27,360 --> 01:12:32,759
Speaker 2: a whole lot of rent and everyone I hitchhiked everywhere.

1141
01:12:32,800 --> 01:12:37,240
Speaker 2: I didn't have a car, but I was able to.

1142
01:12:37,439 --> 01:12:40,280
Speaker 2: Let's see, so early seventy one, for example, just after

1143
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:43,639
Speaker 2: I was a house sitting at Jones and then came

1144
01:12:43,760 --> 01:12:50,000
Speaker 2: back to California. I'm with Graham Nash. He's about to

1145
01:12:50,080 --> 01:12:54,040
Speaker 2: do his first solo album. We're at Wally Hiders studio.

1146
01:12:55,600 --> 01:12:58,840
Speaker 2: He's with the engineer playing back a playback of a

1147
01:12:58,960 --> 01:13:03,000
Speaker 2: song that he recorded a few months ago at Crosby's

1148
01:13:03,080 --> 01:13:09,760
Speaker 2: sessions for his solo album in San Francisco. And this

1149
01:13:09,880 --> 01:13:12,240
Speaker 2: is when I start learning about like the repetition, how

1150
01:13:12,280 --> 01:13:16,559
Speaker 2: much repetition is involved in recordings in studios and playback

1151
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:19,360
Speaker 2: and all of that. So they play the same thing

1152
01:13:19,479 --> 01:13:22,040
Speaker 2: back and back, and I finally get bored and I

1153
01:13:22,200 --> 01:13:26,880
Speaker 2: walk into the studio itself, where no one is there.

1154
01:13:27,560 --> 01:13:30,880
Speaker 2: There's a piano. I don't know how to play piano,

1155
01:13:31,320 --> 01:13:33,280
Speaker 2: but I'm bored. So I sit at the piano and

1156
01:13:33,400 --> 01:13:36,160
Speaker 2: I through the glass I can hear the tape they're playing,

1157
01:13:36,200 --> 01:13:40,920
Speaker 2: which is the song Military Madness, and I just start

1158
01:13:40,960 --> 01:13:45,240
Speaker 2: playing along with it on the piano. I can't play

1159
01:13:45,280 --> 01:13:47,960
Speaker 2: piano at all. I'm playing like a chopsticks kind of piano,

1160
01:13:48,600 --> 01:13:55,160
Speaker 2: literally one finger on the loft, two fingers right. And

1161
01:13:55,400 --> 01:13:58,320
Speaker 2: suddenly Graham's voice comes out loud over the speakers in

1162
01:13:58,400 --> 01:14:00,680
Speaker 2: the studio, Joel, what do you do? And I'm like, oh,

1163
01:14:01,240 --> 01:14:04,719
Speaker 2: I'm so sorry. I figured I was interrupting their hearing

1164
01:14:04,720 --> 01:14:07,760
Speaker 2: and they could hear me for some reason. No, no, no,

1165
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:12,719
Speaker 2: it's just what are you doing? Like, what are you playing? Nothing, Graham,

1166
01:14:12,760 --> 01:14:16,679
Speaker 2: I'm just just playing along with it. Go back, he says,

1167
01:14:16,680 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 2: the engineer. Take the tape back to the head of

1168
01:14:18,560 --> 01:14:21,880
Speaker 2: the thing, and just start at the beginning, so and

1169
01:14:22,040 --> 01:14:24,000
Speaker 2: just play what you were doing. So I start playing,

1170
01:14:24,200 --> 01:14:26,160
Speaker 2: and I play all the way through, and Graham says,

1171
01:14:27,120 --> 01:14:33,040
Speaker 2: you're on the session tomorrow. So I'm not yet nineteen.

1172
01:14:35,000 --> 01:14:39,080
Speaker 2: Get to the session. This is like John Barbada, Chris Ethridge,

1173
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:44,920
Speaker 2: Rita Coolidge. I'm thinking, you know, if I was playing guitar,

1174
01:14:45,080 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 2: I wouldn't be very nervous because I can play guitar.

1175
01:14:47,160 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 2: I'm like good, I'm good enough that if I needed

1176
01:14:50,040 --> 01:14:51,880
Speaker 2: to play a rhythm guitar part on this thing, I

1177
01:14:51,920 --> 01:14:53,760
Speaker 2: could do it fine. But I don't know how to

1178
01:14:53,840 --> 01:14:57,160
Speaker 2: play piano for shit, like at all. These people are

1179
01:14:57,960 --> 01:15:02,639
Speaker 2: the major guys. I'm like kind of sweating bullets thinking about.

1180
01:15:02,640 --> 01:15:05,840
Speaker 2: The door of the studio opens, Dave Mason walks in.

1181
01:15:06,560 --> 01:15:11,000
Speaker 2: I'm a huge traffic fan. He fucking Dave Mason walks

1182
01:15:11,040 --> 01:15:14,639
Speaker 2: in with a plugs this strat into an amp, sits

1183
01:15:14,720 --> 01:15:16,439
Speaker 2: down next to me on the piano bench.

1184
01:15:17,800 --> 01:15:18,400
Speaker 1: Now, I'm.

1185
01:15:21,000 --> 01:15:27,720
Speaker 2: Oh, and we do a live take of it. It's

1186
01:15:27,760 --> 01:15:30,040
Speaker 2: I think like the second take or something like that.

1187
01:15:30,320 --> 01:15:33,639
Speaker 2: And I'm on the record. It was the first time

1188
01:15:33,680 --> 01:15:36,720
Speaker 2: I ever played on a record. It was a big

1189
01:15:36,840 --> 01:15:37,760
Speaker 2: heady experience.

1190
01:15:40,439 --> 01:15:42,080
Speaker 1: Well, how many records have you played on?

1191
01:15:44,040 --> 01:15:50,680
Speaker 2: Oh, that's a good question. I don't know totally how

1192
01:15:50,760 --> 01:15:52,880
Speaker 2: many recordings I did. I was a member of the

1193
01:15:53,280 --> 01:15:58,040
Speaker 2: became a member of the LA Musicians Union because I

1194
01:15:58,080 --> 01:16:01,280
Speaker 2: played on enough things I let's see how my records

1195
01:16:01,320 --> 01:16:04,240
Speaker 2: that I ever play on. I don't know, not many,

1196
01:16:04,640 --> 01:16:09,639
Speaker 2: eight ten. I played on Graham Nash, David Crosby, Crosby

1197
01:16:09,680 --> 01:16:14,439
Speaker 2: and Nash Crosby Stills in Nash. I played with Joni

1198
01:16:14,520 --> 01:16:23,360
Speaker 2: Mitchell on stage, played with Neil on stage. In terms

1199
01:16:23,400 --> 01:16:31,719
Speaker 2: of playing on on records, I played on Terry Reid's

1200
01:16:31,760 --> 01:16:35,120
Speaker 2: Seed of Memory, a great, great album that Graham Nash produced.

1201
01:16:35,200 --> 01:16:38,000
Speaker 2: I played on that. I was really thrilled about that.

1202
01:16:38,840 --> 01:16:42,920
Speaker 2: I played on his Wild Tales album, his second album

1203
01:16:43,000 --> 01:16:46,240
Speaker 2: as well. And I played on Wasted on the Way

1204
01:16:46,920 --> 01:16:51,960
Speaker 2: When Crosby Stills Nash. Anyway, So I never became a

1205
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:55,120
Speaker 2: real session player at all, No, but I did. I

1206
01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:58,720
Speaker 2: liked accompany and I was a thrilled to do all

1207
01:16:58,760 --> 01:16:59,040
Speaker 2: of those.

1208
01:17:00,200 --> 01:17:04,120
Speaker 1: Okay, you go. You know we talk about that show

1209
01:17:04,200 --> 01:17:06,280
Speaker 1: at the beginning, you know, in England on the seventy

1210
01:17:06,360 --> 01:17:09,720
Speaker 1: Forard tour, and then ultimately you shoot the Running on

1211
01:17:09,880 --> 01:17:14,719
Speaker 1: Empty Stuff, which is nineteen yes, seventy eighty seven, seventy seven,

1212
01:17:14,800 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 1: seventy eight, whenever it comes out right right right? Are

1213
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:20,439
Speaker 1: you continuously working through that period?

1214
01:17:21,680 --> 01:17:26,519
Speaker 2: Yeah, I was working mostly as a photographer, so I

1215
01:17:26,600 --> 01:17:29,200
Speaker 2: did the Wind on the Water album cover and the

1216
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:33,479
Speaker 2: shots of CSN on the boat for example, Right, that

1217
01:17:33,479 --> 01:17:37,920
Speaker 2: would have been earlier that year, in seventy seven. I

1218
01:17:39,080 --> 01:17:41,840
Speaker 2: let's see after it was just going back I had

1219
01:17:41,920 --> 01:17:46,240
Speaker 2: done after the gold Rush cover. I did the inside

1220
01:17:46,280 --> 01:17:49,880
Speaker 2: and back cover, the inside and back cover for the

1221
01:17:49,960 --> 01:17:54,280
Speaker 2: Harvest album the group in the barn there that was

1222
01:17:54,400 --> 01:18:00,360
Speaker 2: September seventy one. I did the photos of Jony for

1223
01:18:00,560 --> 01:18:03,519
Speaker 2: the Four of the Roses album that I did those

1224
01:18:03,560 --> 01:18:10,479
Speaker 2: in September of seventy two. And did the Time Fades

1225
01:18:10,520 --> 01:18:13,080
Speaker 2: Away cover for Neil Young of the Kid in the

1226
01:18:13,120 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 2: audience at the Spectrum giving a peace sign. Right, that

1227
01:18:16,560 --> 01:18:22,160
Speaker 2: was then. So I just kept going forward doing those.

1228
01:18:22,439 --> 01:18:24,479
Speaker 1: Okay, A couple of questions. First, got to stop on

1229
01:18:24,600 --> 01:18:27,320
Speaker 1: Four of the Roses that famously had a picture of

1230
01:18:27,520 --> 01:18:32,240
Speaker 1: Joni in Canada with no clothes on. I didn't see

1231
01:18:32,280 --> 01:18:35,360
Speaker 1: it is that much of a limit tester, but the

1232
01:18:35,560 --> 01:18:38,680
Speaker 1: press it was depicted that way. How much of there

1233
01:18:38,840 --> 01:18:41,360
Speaker 1: was a discussion of a shooting it and b using it.

1234
01:18:43,640 --> 01:18:46,280
Speaker 2: There was no discussion about shooting it. I was just

1235
01:18:46,400 --> 01:18:50,280
Speaker 2: walking with Joni and she just took her clothes off

1236
01:18:50,320 --> 01:18:53,679
Speaker 2: and walked out onto the rocks. It looks like she's

1237
01:18:54,280 --> 01:18:57,360
Speaker 2: way out to see, but she's really only about twenty

1238
01:18:57,920 --> 01:19:00,360
Speaker 2: feet away from me. I'm using a wide angle lens

1239
01:19:01,360 --> 01:19:08,120
Speaker 2: on that shot, and knew that I had gotten a

1240
01:19:08,200 --> 01:19:14,479
Speaker 2: really good series there, and I did the later I

1241
01:19:14,560 --> 01:19:16,120
Speaker 2: did the photo of her on the cover, of her

1242
01:19:16,200 --> 01:19:21,760
Speaker 2: in the forest, nearly in the forest. I'm sorry, I

1243
01:19:21,800 --> 01:19:23,560
Speaker 2: think I forgot which her question.

1244
01:19:23,560 --> 01:19:26,080
Speaker 1: Was when the album was being put together and that

1245
01:19:26,200 --> 01:19:29,599
Speaker 1: photo was used, was anybody thinking twice of the fact

1246
01:19:29,640 --> 01:19:30,280
Speaker 1: she was naked?

1247
01:19:30,720 --> 01:19:34,080
Speaker 2: Oh? Yes, No, what happened was I remember that we

1248
01:19:34,840 --> 01:19:37,880
Speaker 2: Janie and I had a meeting with David Geffen about

1249
01:19:38,000 --> 01:19:41,120
Speaker 2: that her choice of that picture on the cover. I

1250
01:19:42,000 --> 01:19:45,800
Speaker 2: originally she wanted to put it on the cover. And

1251
01:19:45,920 --> 01:19:48,920
Speaker 2: she said, Jony, do you know three of us at

1252
01:19:48,960 --> 01:19:50,560
Speaker 2: a meeting And he said, Johnny, did you know that

1253
01:19:50,800 --> 01:19:57,160
Speaker 2: Sears sells something like sixty percent of the LPs in America?

1254
01:19:58,240 --> 01:20:02,040
Speaker 2: And she said, no, I didn't know that. Yeah, well

1255
01:20:02,080 --> 01:20:04,680
Speaker 2: they do. And they have a very strict kind of

1256
01:20:06,360 --> 01:20:12,719
Speaker 2: a rule at Sears about like the kinds of there's

1257
01:20:12,760 --> 01:20:15,880
Speaker 2: like all kinds of album covers that they will not

1258
01:20:16,320 --> 01:20:22,080
Speaker 2: stock based on the artwork. So this would be like

1259
01:20:22,479 --> 01:20:24,640
Speaker 2: no this, which would mean you would you would be

1260
01:20:24,760 --> 01:20:28,639
Speaker 2: losing that many that percent of like your sales because

1261
01:20:28,640 --> 01:20:31,160
Speaker 2: it's not being represented. So we've got it. So that's over, Like,

1262
01:20:31,240 --> 01:20:31,920
Speaker 2: we can't do that.

1263
01:20:32,800 --> 01:20:32,880
Speaker 1: So.

1264
01:20:35,200 --> 01:20:40,000
Speaker 2: Okay, well can I put it on the inside. Well

1265
01:20:40,240 --> 01:20:43,519
Speaker 2: we could try. So that's how we wound up taking

1266
01:20:43,560 --> 01:20:45,760
Speaker 2: the picture of her that was going to be on

1267
01:20:45,840 --> 01:20:49,040
Speaker 2: the inside, and that became the cover and the the

1268
01:20:49,880 --> 01:20:56,160
Speaker 2: the inside shot you talked about, but it was it

1269
01:20:56,320 --> 01:20:56,960
Speaker 2: was talked about.

1270
01:21:06,320 --> 01:21:10,000
Speaker 1: Okay, you talked about being Okay, let's just talk about

1271
01:21:10,000 --> 01:21:13,760
Speaker 1: this period. You're in Los Angeles, You've got the whole

1272
01:21:13,880 --> 01:21:19,519
Speaker 1: Geffen Roberts Asylum camp covered. Are you going to record labels?

1273
01:21:19,560 --> 01:21:21,800
Speaker 1: Are you trying to network with other racks to do

1274
01:21:21,960 --> 01:21:22,439
Speaker 1: their work.

1275
01:21:23,320 --> 01:21:29,000
Speaker 2: That's a really good question. I was not at all

1276
01:21:29,120 --> 01:21:34,719
Speaker 2: business oriented at the time. I sort of let things

1277
01:21:34,840 --> 01:21:38,240
Speaker 2: happen as they did because so much just the things

1278
01:21:38,280 --> 01:21:41,400
Speaker 2: I've related to you happened without my doing them. That is,

1279
01:21:41,479 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 2: they all came to me. These were like there was

1280
01:21:44,880 --> 01:21:49,640
Speaker 2: a certain organic flow to things that happened to me,

1281
01:21:49,920 --> 01:21:51,960
Speaker 2: and it didn't seem like I was going to be

1282
01:21:52,720 --> 01:21:56,160
Speaker 2: helping it. If I had a particular goal in mind

1283
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:58,240
Speaker 2: that I wanted to do it seemed like at the time,

1284
01:21:58,360 --> 01:22:00,679
Speaker 2: it seemed like a better thing was just to see

1285
01:22:00,720 --> 01:22:05,960
Speaker 2: what happened. So I didn't pound the pavement, and I

1286
01:22:06,479 --> 01:22:09,600
Speaker 2: probably should have or could have, or maybe would have

1287
01:22:10,080 --> 01:22:16,120
Speaker 2: if we have to just say this happened in nineteen

1288
01:22:16,160 --> 01:22:20,200
Speaker 2: seventy three when I was on tour with Neil and

1289
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:23,760
Speaker 2: taking some photos of him backstage as the tour photographer.

1290
01:22:24,720 --> 01:22:26,799
Speaker 2: He looked over to me and he goes, wait a minute,

1291
01:22:28,960 --> 01:22:32,400
Speaker 2: and he remembered this moment. When I went to photograph

1292
01:22:32,479 --> 01:22:35,480
Speaker 2: him in Crazy Horse at the Electric Factory in Philadelphia,

1293
01:22:36,320 --> 01:22:39,439
Speaker 2: it was I'd seen them at the Bitter End and

1294
01:22:39,560 --> 01:22:41,479
Speaker 2: then they were coming to Philadelphia. This would be in

1295
01:22:41,840 --> 01:22:46,920
Speaker 2: the end of February beginning of March nineteen seventy still

1296
01:22:47,160 --> 01:22:55,639
Speaker 2: I'm still in twelfth grade. And I took the photos

1297
01:22:55,720 --> 01:23:00,120
Speaker 2: that became the inside of After the Gold Rush of

1298
01:23:00,200 --> 01:23:02,880
Speaker 2: Neil on the couch, sprawled on the couch with the

1299
01:23:02,920 --> 01:23:05,320
Speaker 2: guitars all around, and his wife Susan on the fore

1300
01:23:05,479 --> 01:23:09,920
Speaker 2: end lighting a cigarette. I also took the picture of

1301
01:23:10,600 --> 01:23:12,760
Speaker 2: the close up at the back of his jeans because

1302
01:23:12,760 --> 01:23:16,200
Speaker 2: I'd never seen patches like that before. I just I

1303
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:18,439
Speaker 2: had patches. You had patches here, right, you fall, you,

1304
01:23:19,680 --> 01:23:22,400
Speaker 2: you rip your jeans, your mom puts a patch on it, right,

1305
01:23:22,960 --> 01:23:24,760
Speaker 2: But those were the kind of patches I knew. I

1306
01:23:24,840 --> 01:23:27,680
Speaker 2: didn't this was now art right, Like, he had this

1307
01:23:27,840 --> 01:23:30,960
Speaker 2: beautiful embroidery going on on the pack there. So I

1308
01:23:31,080 --> 01:23:33,920
Speaker 2: knelt down to take a picture of it. Click, I

1309
01:23:34,000 --> 01:23:39,679
Speaker 2: take the picture. No, right before the click, Billy Talbot

1310
01:23:39,720 --> 01:23:43,880
Speaker 2: the bass players says to Neil, hey Man, that guy's

1311
01:23:43,960 --> 01:23:50,439
Speaker 2: taking a picture of your ass man. That becomes the

1312
01:23:50,479 --> 01:23:54,120
Speaker 2: back cover. Still the back cover. It's very funny. So, yes,

1313
01:23:55,960 --> 01:23:57,760
Speaker 2: what was I going to say? There was some.

1314
01:24:00,640 --> 01:24:03,040
Speaker 1: He was saying something to you in the nineteen seventy

1315
01:24:03,160 --> 01:24:03,759
Speaker 1: three tours.

1316
01:24:03,840 --> 01:24:06,320
Speaker 2: Oh yes, thank you, thank you very much for the

1317
01:24:06,360 --> 01:24:12,600
Speaker 2: breadcrumbs there. So what happened is before I took the

1318
01:24:13,439 --> 01:24:16,000
Speaker 2: before or after, pardon me, after I took the pictures

1319
01:24:16,479 --> 01:24:18,600
Speaker 2: of him on the couch. They are back at the

1320
01:24:18,640 --> 01:24:24,360
Speaker 2: Electric Factory in nineteen seventy his D forty five, which

1321
01:24:24,400 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 2: you can see in the picture leaning up against a wall.

1322
01:24:28,040 --> 01:24:30,519
Speaker 2: That's the top of the line Martin guitar. I never

1323
01:24:30,600 --> 01:24:33,479
Speaker 2: seen one before, never seen anything close to that nice

1324
01:24:33,520 --> 01:24:36,160
Speaker 2: of a guitar, I said, is there any way I

1325
01:24:36,240 --> 01:24:39,479
Speaker 2: could just play that guitar for just a minute, Like

1326
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:41,479
Speaker 2: he's like, yeah, sure, go ahead and pick it up,

1327
01:24:41,520 --> 01:24:47,200
Speaker 2: a brand new white faced guitar. I pick it up.

1328
01:24:47,280 --> 01:24:49,439
Speaker 2: I start playing, and it's like the best guitar by

1329
01:24:49,479 --> 01:24:53,240
Speaker 2: far I've ever played. It's about many thousands of dollars guitar.

1330
01:24:53,960 --> 01:24:59,599
Speaker 2: And as I'm playing it, somebody from the promoter sticks

1331
01:24:59,640 --> 01:25:02,519
Speaker 2: their head in the dressing room door and says, Neil,

1332
01:25:02,560 --> 01:25:05,360
Speaker 2: you're on. So Neil looks at me and he says,

1333
01:25:05,400 --> 01:25:08,200
Speaker 2: I need the guitar. So I quickly touch up the guitar,

1334
01:25:08,439 --> 01:25:15,240
Speaker 2: meaning I tuned it very quickly by ear using harmonics,

1335
01:25:16,479 --> 01:25:20,280
Speaker 2: and I hand it to him and he's standing in

1336
01:25:20,360 --> 01:25:23,519
Speaker 2: the doorway of the room and he plays three different

1337
01:25:23,600 --> 01:25:25,800
Speaker 2: chords on it, and he looks at me quizzically like

1338
01:25:27,040 --> 01:25:32,360
Speaker 2: and says that's perfect, Like how could you? What's with you?

1339
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:34,160
Speaker 3: Like? How could you do that?

1340
01:25:34,760 --> 01:25:38,439
Speaker 2: Because it's hard to tune a guitar really well, like

1341
01:25:38,560 --> 01:25:40,360
Speaker 2: and to do it by ear. But I've been I

1342
01:25:40,479 --> 01:25:43,120
Speaker 2: was good enough that by then I gave him the

1343
01:25:43,120 --> 01:25:47,439
Speaker 2: guitar back perfectly. So three years later we're in a

1344
01:25:47,560 --> 01:25:49,439
Speaker 2: dressing room together and it's just the two of us,

1345
01:25:49,840 --> 01:25:53,960
Speaker 2: and he's spending forty minutes before every show tuning his

1346
01:25:54,080 --> 01:25:57,200
Speaker 2: own guitars with a throbba tuner. Write a little device.

1347
01:25:58,160 --> 01:25:59,800
Speaker 2: I'll spare you what it is, but it's like that

1348
01:25:59,880 --> 01:26:03,280
Speaker 2: you used to help tune your guitar. And he looks

1349
01:26:03,280 --> 01:26:06,200
Speaker 2: at me and says, wait a minute, you're that kid

1350
01:26:06,800 --> 01:26:09,880
Speaker 2: who tuned that D forty five perfectly. What am I

1351
01:26:10,120 --> 01:26:13,600
Speaker 2: doing here? You should be doing this here. Let me

1352
01:26:13,720 --> 01:26:16,519
Speaker 2: show you how to work this Strova tuner. And so

1353
01:26:16,960 --> 01:26:18,760
Speaker 2: he teaches me how to do that, and then I

1354
01:26:18,920 --> 01:26:23,080
Speaker 2: become his guitar tech for his shows for the rest

1355
01:26:23,120 --> 01:26:29,080
Speaker 2: of the tour on that tour, and that launches me

1356
01:26:29,320 --> 01:26:35,920
Speaker 2: into a career of me a guitar technician. After that,

1357
01:26:36,120 --> 01:26:39,240
Speaker 2: my first thing is with Crosby and Nash. That becomes

1358
01:26:39,360 --> 01:26:44,800
Speaker 2: that's thirty five different instruments, Danny Cooch, David Linley, David

1359
01:26:44,920 --> 01:26:51,360
Speaker 2: has ten lap slides, guitar, you know, guitars, banjo, pedal,

1360
01:26:51,439 --> 01:26:55,640
Speaker 2: steel guitar, A total of thirty five guitars that I

1361
01:26:55,720 --> 01:26:59,760
Speaker 2: have to then tune and restring for the Crosby Nash show.

1362
01:27:00,680 --> 01:27:06,200
Speaker 2: And right after I had finished that tour, which was

1363
01:27:06,240 --> 01:27:09,760
Speaker 2: our big challenge, which I was able to do. And

1364
01:27:12,080 --> 01:27:14,120
Speaker 2: it's a pleasure to like, you know, when when things

1365
01:27:14,120 --> 01:27:18,519
Speaker 2: are tuned well, it's like a big thrill. So I

1366
01:27:19,920 --> 01:27:24,560
Speaker 2: then ran into the previous tour managers for the CSNY

1367
01:27:24,680 --> 01:27:31,120
Speaker 2: tour in nineteen seventy four at Dantanna's on Santa Monica. Joel,

1368
01:27:31,200 --> 01:27:33,000
Speaker 2: what are you doing here? I don't know I'm here?

1369
01:27:33,880 --> 01:27:36,360
Speaker 2: They said, I said, didn't you just finish the Uh?

1370
01:27:37,320 --> 01:27:40,360
Speaker 2: You finished that Rolling Thunder tour with Bob Dylan, didn't you?

1371
01:27:40,720 --> 01:27:43,160
Speaker 2: The two of you? You just I so wanted to

1372
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:44,960
Speaker 2: be on that. I was on the Crosby Nash tour

1373
01:27:45,080 --> 01:27:48,400
Speaker 2: working on that. But you guys were kicking ass on

1374
01:27:48,560 --> 01:27:49,960
Speaker 2: that first Rolling Thunder tour.

1375
01:27:50,000 --> 01:27:50,320
Speaker 1: I got.

1376
01:27:50,400 --> 01:27:55,160
Speaker 2: I wish I could have been on that. They said, yeah, yeah,

1377
01:27:55,200 --> 01:27:57,280
Speaker 2: we did that. So so what have you been doing?

1378
01:27:57,800 --> 01:27:57,920
Speaker 1: Oh?

1379
01:27:58,000 --> 01:28:00,519
Speaker 2: I was a guitar tech for Crosby and Nasha had

1380
01:28:00,560 --> 01:28:02,400
Speaker 2: these thirty five guitars and they look at each other

1381
01:28:02,600 --> 01:28:09,439
Speaker 2: like and one of them says, so like, just leave

1382
01:28:09,520 --> 01:28:12,600
Speaker 2: the spring open for us. Okay, don't book anything for

1383
01:28:12,720 --> 01:28:14,240
Speaker 2: the spring. We can't tell you what it's about.

1384
01:28:16,720 --> 01:28:17,400
Speaker 1: Just leave it open.

1385
01:28:18,240 --> 01:28:20,679
Speaker 2: Later they call me and say, Okay, what it's about

1386
01:28:20,800 --> 01:28:23,240
Speaker 2: is like, it's the Bob Dylan the second Rolling Thunder

1387
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:26,720
Speaker 2: Review tour. We're doing it this spring, and we're doing

1388
01:28:26,760 --> 01:28:28,640
Speaker 2: it along the Gulf Coast and we want you to

1389
01:28:28,720 --> 01:28:32,719
Speaker 2: start at the Clearwater. We're doing rehearsals at the Bellevue

1390
01:28:32,760 --> 01:28:34,879
Speaker 2: buildmore in Clearwater, Florida.

1391
01:28:35,600 --> 01:28:36,000
Speaker 1: Be there.

1392
01:28:39,040 --> 01:28:43,560
Speaker 2: And that was another tour with thirty five guitars and

1393
01:28:44,640 --> 01:28:49,880
Speaker 2: a huge thrill. And of course, you know, dropping into

1394
01:28:50,200 --> 01:28:57,360
Speaker 2: each of these worlds, it's it's a bit like your

1395
01:28:59,000 --> 01:29:01,160
Speaker 2: Many of these scenes have people in them who have

1396
01:29:01,240 --> 01:29:07,559
Speaker 2: been there for years. And going from let's say Neil

1397
01:29:07,640 --> 01:29:11,719
Speaker 2: Young's world into Joni Mitchell's world into Bob Dylan's world

1398
01:29:11,880 --> 01:29:15,000
Speaker 2: or Prince's world, each one of those is like a

1399
01:29:15,120 --> 01:29:21,559
Speaker 2: different kingdom ruled by a different monarch with a totally

1400
01:29:21,640 --> 01:29:25,600
Speaker 2: different style, and the rules are different and will the

1401
01:29:25,960 --> 01:29:29,200
Speaker 2: priorities are different and whatever. And most of the people

1402
01:29:29,280 --> 01:29:32,920
Speaker 2: who work in those places only know that place. They

1403
01:29:32,960 --> 01:29:36,439
Speaker 2: don't travel, they're just in that one place. So it's

1404
01:29:36,520 --> 01:29:39,080
Speaker 2: wild in what I was doing as a photographer and

1405
01:29:39,160 --> 01:29:41,960
Speaker 2: a guitar tech to go from one of those scenes,

1406
01:29:42,600 --> 01:29:47,880
Speaker 2: you know, into a whole other thing. And so I

1407
01:29:48,040 --> 01:29:52,320
Speaker 2: learned a lot from working for Bob, and it was,

1408
01:29:52,960 --> 01:29:55,080
Speaker 2: you know, a big challenge and a big thrill.

1409
01:29:56,120 --> 01:30:00,800
Speaker 1: Okay, you so you learned a lot, would you learn? Well?

1410
01:30:03,520 --> 01:30:07,120
Speaker 2: I learned like Bob, for example, is a man of

1411
01:30:07,240 --> 01:30:09,600
Speaker 2: few words. He's not going to tell you what the

1412
01:30:09,720 --> 01:30:14,040
Speaker 2: issue is. He's going to look like something's wrong and

1413
01:30:14,160 --> 01:30:16,920
Speaker 2: you have to figure it out. So that was a

1414
01:30:17,000 --> 01:30:21,960
Speaker 2: big lesson for me. But the nonverbal communication thing, because

1415
01:30:22,040 --> 01:30:23,880
Speaker 2: Bob is just not going to tell you a lot,

1416
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:26,080
Speaker 2: you really do have to figure out what it is,

1417
01:30:26,200 --> 01:30:28,559
Speaker 2: and sometimes it's something serious and you've got to deal

1418
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:30,160
Speaker 2: with it like right then.

1419
01:30:30,720 --> 01:30:32,960
Speaker 1: So that stood me in.

1420
01:30:33,000 --> 01:30:35,920
Speaker 2: Goodstead many many years later when I went to work

1421
01:30:36,000 --> 01:30:39,559
Speaker 2: for Prince, because they're both so intense. I mean, Bob

1422
01:30:39,600 --> 01:30:41,800
Speaker 2: could give you a look that could kill and you

1423
01:30:41,880 --> 01:30:45,719
Speaker 2: could be dead. His looks are so intense.

1424
01:30:47,200 --> 01:30:47,360
Speaker 1: You know.

1425
01:30:47,520 --> 01:30:52,800
Speaker 2: Prince was incredibly it was an intense person, but he

1426
01:30:53,000 --> 01:30:56,160
Speaker 2: was so focused on what it was he wanted to

1427
01:30:56,280 --> 01:31:00,280
Speaker 2: do that you really you wanted to help him, wanted

1428
01:31:00,320 --> 01:31:01,960
Speaker 2: to like it's like, okay, if I'm going to get

1429
01:31:02,000 --> 01:31:03,680
Speaker 2: on this bus, I'm going to do the best I

1430
01:31:03,800 --> 01:31:10,560
Speaker 2: can and and and do it. So all of my

1431
01:31:11,479 --> 01:31:14,800
Speaker 2: career as a a what became as a guitar technician

1432
01:31:16,439 --> 01:31:23,960
Speaker 2: occasionally with me playing on records or live was intermingled

1433
01:31:24,040 --> 01:31:26,320
Speaker 2: with my career as a photographer, so I got to

1434
01:31:26,400 --> 01:31:29,560
Speaker 2: do for many years, I got to do an alternate

1435
01:31:30,000 --> 01:31:34,559
Speaker 2: between between the two and got to go to Europe

1436
01:31:34,640 --> 01:31:39,040
Speaker 2: and Japan and be on many tours with great, great

1437
01:31:39,120 --> 01:31:45,120
Speaker 2: crews of people and see, you know how this amazing

1438
01:31:45,240 --> 01:31:47,920
Speaker 2: variety of performers and what moves them, like, like, what

1439
01:31:48,080 --> 01:31:50,439
Speaker 2: is motivating each of them and why are they doing it?

1440
01:31:50,760 --> 01:31:53,840
Speaker 1: But well, go a little deeper there, what is motivating

1441
01:31:53,960 --> 01:31:55,519
Speaker 1: these artists and why are they doing it?

1442
01:31:56,320 --> 01:32:03,880
Speaker 2: It's a really good question. I think there are artists

1443
01:32:04,520 --> 01:32:11,360
Speaker 2: like Jonie or James Taylor who are not there to

1444
01:32:11,479 --> 01:32:14,479
Speaker 2: begin with. They're not picking up the guitar like I

1445
01:32:14,840 --> 01:32:20,439
Speaker 2: was at the time. They're not like looking for the

1446
01:32:20,760 --> 01:32:23,880
Speaker 2: for applause. They're not looking for you to tell them

1447
01:32:23,920 --> 01:32:26,560
Speaker 2: how great they are. They just have to do this.

1448
01:32:27,280 --> 01:32:30,920
Speaker 2: And if they could stay in their room and slip

1449
01:32:31,400 --> 01:32:34,840
Speaker 2: the cassette they just finished under the door to to

1450
01:32:35,000 --> 01:32:37,880
Speaker 2: the world and stay in their room, that would be

1451
01:32:38,000 --> 01:32:42,880
Speaker 2: great for them. Their their motivation is about what they

1452
01:32:43,000 --> 01:32:44,640
Speaker 2: have to say and what they have to do and

1453
01:32:44,960 --> 01:32:47,439
Speaker 2: the hours that are going to spend making it just

1454
01:32:47,800 --> 01:32:57,519
Speaker 2: so for them. Other people are the the roar of

1455
01:32:57,600 --> 01:33:02,200
Speaker 2: the crowd, the the emotion of that coming to them

1456
01:33:02,280 --> 01:33:05,880
Speaker 2: made me seeing that so many times made me feel

1457
01:33:07,240 --> 01:33:11,360
Speaker 2: that for some performing artists it's a matter of attention

1458
01:33:11,760 --> 01:33:15,200
Speaker 2: in the sense of did your parents pay you enough

1459
01:33:15,240 --> 01:33:20,840
Speaker 2: attention as a kid. Maybe they paid you too much attention, right,

1460
01:33:21,000 --> 01:33:25,120
Speaker 2: so that as an adult you need that extra attention,

1461
01:33:26,000 --> 01:33:28,559
Speaker 2: or maybe they paid you too little attention, and that's

1462
01:33:28,640 --> 01:33:33,000
Speaker 2: what you need now from the audience. When you're the

1463
01:33:33,240 --> 01:33:36,519
Speaker 2: person on stage and all of those people give you

1464
01:33:36,680 --> 01:33:40,920
Speaker 2: that roar of approval, that's what is, you know, moving

1465
01:33:41,040 --> 01:33:43,479
Speaker 2: you right. So I think it's a big that's just

1466
01:33:44,040 --> 01:33:46,960
Speaker 2: a couple of polls, a couple of ways people are moved.

1467
01:33:47,000 --> 01:33:53,439
Speaker 2: But it is really interesting to just see how also

1468
01:33:54,200 --> 01:33:59,080
Speaker 2: in one scene music itself might be king the music

1469
01:34:00,360 --> 01:34:12,320
Speaker 2: right and in another style might be right or are

1470
01:34:12,479 --> 01:34:16,920
Speaker 2: artfully making a show right? Are making a performance? How

1471
01:34:17,000 --> 01:34:22,880
Speaker 2: well do you artfully do that? As opposed to I

1472
01:34:22,960 --> 01:34:26,480
Speaker 2: think because I was working with the post Dylan singer songwriters,

1473
01:34:28,640 --> 01:34:31,160
Speaker 2: that was that's the main world that I lived in,

1474
01:34:31,320 --> 01:34:33,840
Speaker 2: so that most most of the people I was photographing,

1475
01:34:33,880 --> 01:34:43,120
Speaker 2: were composing the things they were performing right, really different

1476
01:34:43,400 --> 01:34:47,880
Speaker 2: from you know, Bob, Bob Dylan says in the biograph

1477
01:34:47,960 --> 01:34:51,240
Speaker 2: notes to Cameron Crow, I didn't know it as a kid,

1478
01:34:51,880 --> 01:34:56,400
Speaker 2: he says, growing up. But there were on the one

1479
01:34:56,680 --> 01:34:59,680
Speaker 2: there were singers and then there were songwriters, and there

1480
01:34:59,720 --> 01:35:03,400
Speaker 2: were for almost nobody did both things. I think about it,

1481
01:35:04,120 --> 01:35:08,000
Speaker 2: there really was. There's the professional singers, right, and then

1482
01:35:08,040 --> 01:35:11,639
Speaker 2: there's the professional performers, and very few, like you could

1483
01:35:11,680 --> 01:35:15,120
Speaker 2: count them on one hand, almost like right, Chuck Burry,

1484
01:35:16,720 --> 01:35:19,559
Speaker 2: Jerry Lee Lewis, like people who wrote their own material

1485
01:35:19,640 --> 01:35:20,320
Speaker 2: and performed it.

1486
01:35:21,360 --> 01:35:21,840
Speaker 1: Not a lot.

1487
01:35:23,200 --> 01:35:27,920
Speaker 2: So it was wonderful for me to get to see

1488
01:35:28,680 --> 01:35:33,960
Speaker 2: I was on tour, I guess starting with I don't know,

1489
01:35:34,160 --> 01:35:38,240
Speaker 2: Neil in seventy ors Crosby Nash seventy one, going all

1490
01:35:38,280 --> 01:35:46,240
Speaker 2: the way up to probably Neil in ninety three, something

1491
01:35:46,400 --> 01:35:55,880
Speaker 2: like that, and the unplugged period. So you know, I

1492
01:35:56,080 --> 01:36:01,920
Speaker 2: loved the opportunity to it, to to see that up close.

1493
01:36:03,040 --> 01:36:05,000
Speaker 1: Now, when you were tuning guitars, when you were a

1494
01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:08,280
Speaker 1: guitar technician, were you also shooting photos on those same gigs?

1495
01:36:09,600 --> 01:36:14,720
Speaker 2: Good question. I usually if I was hired as a

1496
01:36:14,760 --> 01:36:17,240
Speaker 2: guitar tech. That was all I could do. And the

1497
01:36:17,320 --> 01:36:21,519
Speaker 2: Bob Dylan world, they specifically said Joel, like, we know

1498
01:36:21,880 --> 01:36:25,360
Speaker 2: you know because I was the guitar the tour photographer

1499
01:36:25,439 --> 01:36:28,600
Speaker 2: for the seventy four tour for the same producers. They

1500
01:36:28,680 --> 01:36:31,880
Speaker 2: said to me, listen on this Bob Dylan tour, just

1501
01:36:31,960 --> 01:36:34,840
Speaker 2: don't even bring your cameras. Okay, he doesn't want you

1502
01:36:34,920 --> 01:36:37,720
Speaker 2: to take in pictures. We know what you do all

1503
01:36:37,800 --> 01:36:40,400
Speaker 2: of that. Just leave them at home. You're going to

1504
01:36:40,439 --> 01:36:43,479
Speaker 2: be the guitar tech. Fine, So I did that, and

1505
01:36:43,560 --> 01:36:46,760
Speaker 2: then one night Bob's assistant runs to me and goes, Joe,

1506
01:36:46,880 --> 01:36:50,840
Speaker 2: Bob wants you to photograph the show tonight, And I said,

1507
01:36:51,160 --> 01:36:54,360
Speaker 2: wasn't that you who called me on the phone and said, like,

1508
01:36:54,560 --> 01:36:58,040
Speaker 2: leave your cameras at home because they're at home. They

1509
01:36:58,160 --> 01:37:01,000
Speaker 2: really are home. So I'd love to do it, but

1510
01:37:01,120 --> 01:37:05,240
Speaker 2: I can't. So I had my all my cameras shipped,

1511
01:37:06,600 --> 01:37:09,679
Speaker 2: and then I did photograph like the next few shows

1512
01:37:09,840 --> 01:37:14,040
Speaker 2: of Bob's. But again, you're responsible for thirty five guitars.

1513
01:37:14,400 --> 01:37:16,360
Speaker 2: They all have to be in tune. If somebody breaks

1514
01:37:16,400 --> 01:37:17,760
Speaker 2: the string, you gotta deal with.

1515
01:37:17,800 --> 01:37:22,519
Speaker 1: It, Okay. On these shows where you're the guitar tick. Yes,

1516
01:37:22,720 --> 01:37:25,440
Speaker 1: how many of them have their own separate tour photographer.

1517
01:37:27,960 --> 01:37:34,080
Speaker 2: Who wasn't me? Let's see, that's a good question. Very

1518
01:37:34,120 --> 01:37:34,639
Speaker 2: few of them.

1519
01:37:35,760 --> 01:37:36,040
Speaker 1: I was.

1520
01:37:36,120 --> 01:37:38,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I wasn't paying attention. Who was photography?

1521
01:37:39,080 --> 01:37:40,880
Speaker 1: I let me ask a different Let me ask you

1522
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:45,639
Speaker 1: a different question. You know, anybody on the road who's

1523
01:37:45,680 --> 01:37:49,840
Speaker 1: doing anything that has to think is being pretty well compensated,

1524
01:37:50,200 --> 01:37:56,760
Speaker 1: although you're working around the clock. However, shooting photos is different.

1525
01:37:56,439 --> 01:37:59,320
Speaker 2: From tuning guitars, really different. Ye.

1526
01:37:59,640 --> 01:38:01,760
Speaker 1: Is there part of you saying, well, this is kind

1527
01:38:01,800 --> 01:38:05,080
Speaker 1: of okay, and I'm getting paid, but it's not as

1528
01:38:05,160 --> 01:38:07,320
Speaker 1: fulfilling as shooting photos. Yeah.

1529
01:38:08,200 --> 01:38:11,240
Speaker 2: Absolutely. If I had it all to do again, I

1530
01:38:11,320 --> 01:38:13,639
Speaker 2: would do no. I would not be a guitar tech

1531
01:38:13,760 --> 01:38:16,160
Speaker 2: and I would not have done any of that. I

1532
01:38:16,320 --> 01:38:19,760
Speaker 2: realized when I went to a couple award shows for

1533
01:38:19,880 --> 01:38:25,880
Speaker 2: photographers or lifetime achievement awards, that everyone who was being

1534
01:38:25,920 --> 01:38:28,640
Speaker 2: presented with an award on stage got to be a

1535
01:38:28,680 --> 01:38:31,920
Speaker 2: photographer early on, and they just stayed with it. There

1536
01:38:32,000 --> 01:38:35,000
Speaker 2: was no second career. They were not. None of them

1537
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:38,600
Speaker 2: were doing photography and something else. So I think that

1538
01:38:42,560 --> 01:38:45,800
Speaker 2: I'd have to say that my photography suffered that in

1539
01:38:45,920 --> 01:38:51,400
Speaker 2: the sense of not taking all of those hours and

1540
01:38:51,479 --> 01:38:54,280
Speaker 2: weeks and years that I put into being a guitar

1541
01:38:54,400 --> 01:38:58,080
Speaker 2: tech that could have been used to become a better photographer.

1542
01:38:58,560 --> 01:39:03,240
Speaker 2: So in hindsight, as much because I had a lot

1543
01:39:03,280 --> 01:39:05,640
Speaker 2: of great fun and I lot did, I'm proud of

1544
01:39:05,680 --> 01:39:08,120
Speaker 2: a lot of the stuff I did. I was the

1545
01:39:08,160 --> 01:39:11,880
Speaker 2: guitar tech for the Last Waltz, the band's last concert

1546
01:39:11,960 --> 01:39:13,880
Speaker 2: with Bob Dylan and Jony and Neil and all of that,

1547
01:39:14,040 --> 01:39:16,240
Speaker 2: and that was a big thrill for me. And I

1548
01:39:16,400 --> 01:39:19,599
Speaker 2: can still listen to that concert and say, I did

1549
01:39:19,640 --> 01:39:23,280
Speaker 2: a good job. It's not a train wreck. It's in tune, right,

1550
01:39:23,560 --> 01:39:25,760
Speaker 2: that kind of thing. So if there's something you know,

1551
01:39:26,360 --> 01:39:31,639
Speaker 2: but it's not the same as Tom Petty or someone

1552
01:39:31,920 --> 01:39:35,400
Speaker 2: or Bruce Springsteen using a photo of yours for an

1553
01:39:35,400 --> 01:39:38,000
Speaker 2: album cover or a single sleeve or something like that's

1554
01:39:38,000 --> 01:39:39,240
Speaker 2: a whole other kind of excitement.

1555
01:39:40,000 --> 01:39:43,960
Speaker 1: Okay, you have this start when you're in high school,

1556
01:39:44,600 --> 01:39:48,400
Speaker 1: wet behind the years. Joni Mitchell sort of plucks you

1557
01:39:48,560 --> 01:39:53,439
Speaker 1: from obscurity. Once you're in LA you dropped out of

1558
01:39:53,520 --> 01:39:58,640
Speaker 1: college and the years that did n't suit Okay, are

1559
01:39:58,720 --> 01:40:02,920
Speaker 1: you a member of a group or you an exterearior character.

1560
01:40:03,920 --> 01:40:06,640
Speaker 1: Are they saying, oh, we're having a party where so

1561
01:40:06,800 --> 01:40:07,920
Speaker 1: and so called Joel.

1562
01:40:08,680 --> 01:40:11,439
Speaker 2: It's a good question. I think when I lived in

1563
01:40:11,800 --> 01:40:15,000
Speaker 2: La I think I was considered part of an part

1564
01:40:15,040 --> 01:40:19,160
Speaker 2: of the extended family, and did get to do lots

1565
01:40:19,200 --> 01:40:25,920
Speaker 2: of things with some of the artists. I when I

1566
01:40:26,280 --> 01:40:30,600
Speaker 2: moved here in seventy three, Neil had just bought his

1567
01:40:30,880 --> 01:40:31,880
Speaker 2: ranch right, so it'd be.

1568
01:40:31,920 --> 01:40:34,400
Speaker 1: Well, just to be clear, not everybody's up to speed.

1569
01:40:35,120 --> 01:40:35,760
Speaker 1: Where is here?

1570
01:40:38,040 --> 01:40:44,400
Speaker 2: Oh, I'm sorry. I moved to San Francisco from Tipanga

1571
01:40:45,040 --> 01:40:49,519
Speaker 2: in April of nineteen seventy three, after doing the Time

1572
01:40:49,560 --> 01:40:52,000
Speaker 2: Fades Away tour, after doing all those photos.

1573
01:40:53,160 --> 01:40:53,960
Speaker 1: I lived.

1574
01:40:55,280 --> 01:41:00,120
Speaker 2: Graham Nash lived at a Victorian three story home on

1575
01:41:00,200 --> 01:41:04,559
Speaker 2: Buenavista Park in San Francisco in the city and had

1576
01:41:04,680 --> 01:41:08,280
Speaker 2: an apartment that he'd been renting next door that came

1577
01:41:08,400 --> 01:41:10,800
Speaker 2: up for rent, and he invited me to move there

1578
01:41:11,320 --> 01:41:15,800
Speaker 2: from Topanga. And I think that rent was one hundred

1579
01:41:15,800 --> 01:41:19,080
Speaker 2: and fifty nine dollars a month at the time, so

1580
01:41:19,280 --> 01:41:24,680
Speaker 2: it was not hard to do. And I loved San Francisco, so.

1581
01:41:28,120 --> 01:41:29,200
Speaker 1: I really.

1582
01:41:31,040 --> 01:41:33,040
Speaker 2: Enjoyed that, But I think I just lost my train

1583
01:41:33,080 --> 01:41:35,200
Speaker 2: of thought about what question I was answering.

1584
01:41:35,240 --> 01:41:37,559
Speaker 1: Well, you were saying, you know, when you moved up north,

1585
01:41:37,680 --> 01:41:40,240
Speaker 1: being a member of the group, being included.

1586
01:41:40,320 --> 01:41:44,639
Speaker 2: Oh, yes, so I would again. In the fall, right after,

1587
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:47,560
Speaker 2: well before I moved up there, I came up to

1588
01:41:47,680 --> 01:41:51,880
Speaker 2: photograph Neil in the Harvest for the Harvest album. So

1589
01:41:52,000 --> 01:41:55,559
Speaker 2: the picture of him of the giant doorknob that's reflected

1590
01:41:55,600 --> 01:41:58,599
Speaker 2: on the inside there, that's you can see me taking

1591
01:41:58,640 --> 01:42:01,200
Speaker 2: the picture in the doorknob and Meil standing there with

1592
01:42:01,280 --> 01:42:06,840
Speaker 2: his hands on his lips looking at me. I felt

1593
01:42:07,160 --> 01:42:10,599
Speaker 2: welcome by all of these people. They were all considering

1594
01:42:11,640 --> 01:42:15,400
Speaker 2: I was always the youngest one around. They were always

1595
01:42:16,280 --> 01:42:18,800
Speaker 2: I felt welcome, and I didn't feel like.

1596
01:42:20,360 --> 01:42:20,759
Speaker 1: I didn't.

1597
01:42:21,400 --> 01:42:27,400
Speaker 2: I didn't feel part of the group, except when occasionally

1598
01:42:27,520 --> 01:42:30,560
Speaker 2: I would get asked to play, like Graham asked me

1599
01:42:30,640 --> 01:42:33,120
Speaker 2: to play on song wind on the Water, for example,

1600
01:42:33,160 --> 01:42:36,040
Speaker 2: when Crosby, Stills and Nash would play that song and

1601
01:42:36,160 --> 01:42:39,800
Speaker 2: we would actually have a film of from the Acousto

1602
01:42:39,960 --> 01:42:42,920
Speaker 2: Society of Whales behind us, and I would get to

1603
01:42:42,960 --> 01:42:46,600
Speaker 2: play an acoustic guitar part on that song. And a

1604
01:42:46,640 --> 01:42:51,200
Speaker 2: couple other songs sometimes for CSN. So I enjoyed that,

1605
01:42:51,439 --> 01:42:58,519
Speaker 2: and you know, I certainly, Yeah, I did not feel

1606
01:42:58,640 --> 01:43:01,240
Speaker 2: exterior to them at all. I felt like I was

1607
01:43:01,400 --> 01:43:04,240
Speaker 2: We were, we were good friends. And I did things

1608
01:43:04,400 --> 01:43:08,559
Speaker 2: like I transcribed all of David Crosby's songs for guitar

1609
01:43:09,840 --> 01:43:13,360
Speaker 2: back when I was nineteen for uh SO that so

1610
01:43:13,600 --> 01:43:16,400
Speaker 2: the guitarist could play all of those songs tune in

1611
01:43:16,479 --> 01:43:18,280
Speaker 2: the tunings that they were that he wrote them in.

1612
01:43:18,680 --> 01:43:21,080
Speaker 2: That was a big accomplishment for me. And I did

1613
01:43:21,120 --> 01:43:23,800
Speaker 2: the same thing for Jonie for the for the Roses album.

1614
01:43:25,320 --> 01:43:28,360
Speaker 2: So there are all kinds of like other little less

1615
01:43:28,760 --> 01:43:31,320
Speaker 2: things that I could do. I felt very at home.

1616
01:43:31,760 --> 01:43:32,880
Speaker 1: Uh it was.

1617
01:43:33,040 --> 01:43:38,799
Speaker 2: It was, uh, you know, compared especially if I compared

1618
01:43:38,880 --> 01:43:43,720
Speaker 2: my my career path to other friends of mine who

1619
01:43:43,800 --> 01:43:46,759
Speaker 2: I knew in high school or just friends or neighbors

1620
01:43:46,840 --> 01:43:49,160
Speaker 2: and what they were doing. I was not doing any

1621
01:43:49,240 --> 01:43:52,200
Speaker 2: kind of nine to five anything, you know ever.

1622
01:43:52,840 --> 01:43:57,080
Speaker 1: Okay, a couple of questions. The seventy three tour that

1623
01:43:57,320 --> 01:44:01,479
Speaker 1: came after Harvest. The Yeah album that was released was

1624
01:44:01,600 --> 01:44:05,559
Speaker 1: Time Fades Away, which was a live album cover, very rocking,

1625
01:44:06,280 --> 01:44:10,759
Speaker 1: very different from Harvest. You were a different at those shows.

1626
01:44:11,720 --> 01:44:15,000
Speaker 1: He was playing arenas because of the success of Heart

1627
01:44:15,080 --> 01:44:18,800
Speaker 1: of Gold. You hear that the people did not enjoy

1628
01:44:18,960 --> 01:44:19,920
Speaker 1: that you were there?

1629
01:44:20,040 --> 01:44:25,040
Speaker 2: What was absolutely okay, that's very really good astute question there, Bob.

1630
01:44:25,479 --> 01:44:34,000
Speaker 2: So yes, the people were expecting to hear the Harvest album. This,

1631
01:44:34,280 --> 01:44:36,479
Speaker 2: by the way, happens on the Tonight's the Night tour

1632
01:44:36,720 --> 01:44:39,559
Speaker 2: later that year, also in late fall of seventy three,

1633
01:44:40,840 --> 01:44:43,760
Speaker 2: especially when Neil is touring colleges at the beginning of

1634
01:44:43,840 --> 01:44:50,639
Speaker 2: that tour, people were puzzled and the way that Neil looked,

1635
01:44:51,800 --> 01:44:57,720
Speaker 2: his look combined with how chaotic it was, and he

1636
01:44:59,479 --> 01:45:02,560
Speaker 2: had never on a show, he had never done a

1637
01:45:02,640 --> 01:45:12,559
Speaker 2: show of arenas and large theaters like that before ever, and.

1638
01:45:15,160 --> 01:45:15,680
Speaker 1: It was.

1639
01:45:18,840 --> 01:45:23,280
Speaker 2: I think that his his his putting the band together

1640
01:45:23,520 --> 01:45:25,920
Speaker 2: was like, who did I have the most fun playing with?

1641
01:45:26,760 --> 01:45:28,639
Speaker 2: So I want to have It was, you know, quite

1642
01:45:28,760 --> 01:45:33,479
Speaker 2: a great band. He had Kenny Buttery on drums, who

1643
01:45:33,560 --> 01:45:36,320
Speaker 2: he'd hired, who was a Nashville A list player then

1644
01:45:37,080 --> 01:45:40,920
Speaker 2: and who Neil had to match what his salary would

1645
01:45:40,920 --> 01:45:43,599
Speaker 2: have been had he'd stayed in Nashville. If you can imagine, right,

1646
01:45:43,840 --> 01:45:47,280
Speaker 2: if Kenny's Buttery stays at home in Nashville does X

1647
01:45:47,400 --> 01:45:49,599
Speaker 2: number of sessions per week. What is that number? It's

1648
01:45:49,640 --> 01:45:52,960
Speaker 2: a large number. So most people are not hiring Kenny

1649
01:45:53,400 --> 01:45:55,519
Speaker 2: to go on their tour. They can't afford to. But

1650
01:45:55,680 --> 01:45:59,720
Speaker 2: Neil could, so he did. And so you've got and

1651
01:45:59,840 --> 01:46:04,360
Speaker 2: Jack Nietzschee for God's sake, Phil Spector's arranger, among other things.

1652
01:46:04,439 --> 01:46:08,760
Speaker 2: You know, the great Jack Nietzschee a part of his

1653
01:46:08,920 --> 01:46:09,559
Speaker 2: band as well.

1654
01:46:09,880 --> 01:46:12,040
Speaker 1: So but.

1655
01:46:14,080 --> 01:46:21,240
Speaker 2: His right before the tour begins, in rehearsals, Neil's guitarist

1656
01:46:21,280 --> 01:46:24,439
Speaker 2: from Crazy Horse, Danny Whitten, Neil decides he wants to

1657
01:46:24,520 --> 01:46:27,880
Speaker 2: have him in the band. He knows that Danny is

1658
01:46:28,280 --> 01:46:31,519
Speaker 2: a heroin addict and had written Needle and the Damage

1659
01:46:31,560 --> 01:46:36,040
Speaker 2: Done about him, and he knows the dangers of that,

1660
01:46:36,240 --> 01:46:38,719
Speaker 2: but he really wants to have him in a rhythm

1661
01:46:38,840 --> 01:46:42,920
Speaker 2: guitar position. It just gives him the freedom to play,

1662
01:46:43,160 --> 01:46:47,799
Speaker 2: you know, to take off when Danny's there. And in rehearsal,

1663
01:46:47,960 --> 01:46:52,080
Speaker 2: Danny is too messed up from drugs to be able

1664
01:46:52,160 --> 01:46:55,599
Speaker 2: to actually do the part, and Neil has to send

1665
01:46:55,680 --> 01:46:57,640
Speaker 2: him home and he.

1666
01:46:59,640 --> 01:46:59,920
Speaker 1: Danny.

1667
01:47:00,000 --> 01:47:03,920
Speaker 2: He flies home to Los Angeles, goes right to his

1668
01:47:04,360 --> 01:47:11,040
Speaker 2: heroin dealers and buys enough heroin and he overdoses that night,

1669
01:47:12,280 --> 01:47:14,240
Speaker 2: and Neil gets woken up at four in the morning

1670
01:47:14,280 --> 01:47:20,240
Speaker 2: by the La County Sheriff's department because because Danny had

1671
01:47:20,240 --> 01:47:22,599
Speaker 2: put Neil's phone number in a crumpled piece of paper

1672
01:47:22,640 --> 01:47:25,519
Speaker 2: in his pocket, so they call that number when he's

1673
01:47:25,560 --> 01:47:30,640
Speaker 2: dead and it's Neil. So that's how Neil learns that that,

1674
01:47:30,920 --> 01:47:34,040
Speaker 2: like Danny is dead, and that puts.

1675
01:47:33,800 --> 01:47:34,960
Speaker 1: A really.

1676
01:47:36,640 --> 01:47:45,960
Speaker 2: Black, you know, cloak over the whole enterprise of what's

1677
01:47:45,960 --> 01:47:53,599
Speaker 2: supposed to be his first, you know, huge national tour

1678
01:47:55,200 --> 01:47:59,000
Speaker 2: because because of the shock of that, So there's a

1679
01:47:59,720 --> 01:48:06,960
Speaker 2: there's a that combined with trying to deal with like

1680
01:48:07,160 --> 01:48:11,360
Speaker 2: monitors and sound levels. Right, it's an electric band. He's

1681
01:48:11,439 --> 01:48:14,400
Speaker 2: used to being a solo acoustic act. Of course, he's

1682
01:48:14,400 --> 01:48:19,040
Speaker 2: played with Buffalo Springfield, but they're playing in small places mostly, right,

1683
01:48:19,280 --> 01:48:21,960
Speaker 2: and the main volume issu who has to do between

1684
01:48:22,040 --> 01:48:25,439
Speaker 2: him and Steven there here it is on his own

1685
01:48:26,200 --> 01:48:30,160
Speaker 2: young tour, and I have a photo of him with

1686
01:48:30,280 --> 01:48:32,280
Speaker 2: a with a flying V guitar at one of the

1687
01:48:32,520 --> 01:48:36,000
Speaker 2: sound checks on this tour with a huge wall of

1688
01:48:36,080 --> 01:48:41,000
Speaker 2: amplifiers that he's staring out trying to get his guitar

1689
01:48:41,160 --> 01:48:45,080
Speaker 2: sound right, and he's looking at these amps with great intensity,

1690
01:48:46,160 --> 01:48:49,600
Speaker 2: trying to like get his guitar sound dialed in, and

1691
01:48:49,680 --> 01:48:53,000
Speaker 2: he never does for the whole tour. So there's a

1692
01:48:53,200 --> 01:48:59,320
Speaker 2: discomfort for him about the size of the arenas, the

1693
01:49:00,520 --> 01:49:05,960
Speaker 2: mm hmm. He becomes unhappy with Kenny Butterer's playing because

1694
01:49:06,040 --> 01:49:10,080
Speaker 2: Kenny's not playing loud enough. Now, Kenny's playing as hard

1695
01:49:11,040 --> 01:49:12,439
Speaker 2: as he can play, and he's like one of the

1696
01:49:12,520 --> 01:49:18,360
Speaker 2: great drummers of our time, and yet he's it's not

1697
01:49:18,680 --> 01:49:23,559
Speaker 2: enough for Neil. Like Neil actually fires him halfway through

1698
01:49:23,840 --> 01:49:29,080
Speaker 2: the tour and yes, John Barbado to cover it. So

1699
01:49:30,760 --> 01:49:34,320
Speaker 2: it was not a happy tour for Neil, like you said.

1700
01:49:35,120 --> 01:49:40,600
Speaker 2: And the next album, Tonight's the Night, is like is

1701
01:49:40,680 --> 01:49:46,640
Speaker 2: his tribute to Danny Whitten. Basically it's the he and

1702
01:49:46,760 --> 01:49:50,920
Speaker 2: the band he puts together record really late at night

1703
01:49:51,000 --> 01:49:57,280
Speaker 2: with having taken a lot of tequila, and you know,

1704
01:49:57,479 --> 01:50:01,800
Speaker 2: come up with the very dark but brilliant Tonight's the

1705
01:50:01,880 --> 01:50:04,280
Speaker 2: Night album. So I was there for that part.

1706
01:50:04,360 --> 01:50:17,360
Speaker 1: Also, Okay, you know you mentioned Petty who's managed by

1707
01:50:17,439 --> 01:50:21,960
Speaker 1: Tony Dimitriotis, who's part of Elliott Roberts Lookout Management. But

1708
01:50:22,040 --> 01:50:25,200
Speaker 1: you ultimately worked with Springsteen. How does that come about?

1709
01:50:25,400 --> 01:50:29,679
Speaker 2: Yes, you know, I think it was. It came about.

1710
01:50:31,160 --> 01:50:33,880
Speaker 2: I don't remember how it was that I was. I

1711
01:50:34,000 --> 01:50:37,519
Speaker 2: must have met John Landau through Jackson. I was on

1712
01:50:37,560 --> 01:50:41,400
Speaker 2: the Running on Empty tour in nineteen seventy seven. Jackson

1713
01:50:41,479 --> 01:50:44,360
Speaker 2: originally asked me to be one of the harmony singers,

1714
01:50:44,840 --> 01:50:47,519
Speaker 2: so the first time anyone asked to hire me as

1715
01:50:47,560 --> 01:50:53,400
Speaker 2: a singer. I'm a huge fan of Jackson's music from

1716
01:50:53,479 --> 01:51:01,280
Speaker 2: his first album Onward and Learn, and rehearsed with Jackson

1717
01:51:01,560 --> 01:51:04,880
Speaker 2: with his two existing harmony singers. So I was to

1718
01:51:05,080 --> 01:51:10,160
Speaker 2: sing a third harmony, which means you're doing four part vocals,

1719
01:51:10,200 --> 01:51:16,559
Speaker 2: which is very complicated, not easy to do. I learned

1720
01:51:16,920 --> 01:51:21,400
Speaker 2: all the songs and before. I don't want to get

1721
01:51:21,400 --> 01:51:25,280
Speaker 2: too lost in all of this, but briefly, I was

1722
01:51:25,640 --> 01:51:30,040
Speaker 2: very thrilled to be able to be a singer. And

1723
01:51:31,000 --> 01:51:36,080
Speaker 2: the night before the tour started, Jackson called and said, Hey, Jeaul,

1724
01:51:36,120 --> 01:51:38,879
Speaker 2: I've been listening to the tape of our production rehearsal

1725
01:51:39,080 --> 01:51:43,519
Speaker 2: and you sound great and you're getting your pitch is perfect.

1726
01:51:43,560 --> 01:51:47,160
Speaker 2: You've got everything right. But you know, and listening to

1727
01:51:47,280 --> 01:51:52,160
Speaker 2: this the tape, I think three harmony singers is just

1728
01:51:52,280 --> 01:51:54,840
Speaker 2: one harmony too much, So I've got to ask you

1729
01:51:54,960 --> 01:51:59,720
Speaker 2: to just stay home, which was really like like I was,

1730
01:52:00,560 --> 01:52:04,000
Speaker 2: and I said, well, Jackson, you know I've been looking

1731
01:52:04,040 --> 01:52:06,759
Speaker 2: for it's like two in the morning. This conversation's happening

1732
01:52:06,800 --> 01:52:08,599
Speaker 2: the two in the morning of the night I'm packing

1733
01:52:08,680 --> 01:52:14,479
Speaker 2: to go there. I said, could it? Could I come

1734
01:52:14,520 --> 01:52:16,240
Speaker 2: out on the tour for like a week or something

1735
01:52:16,280 --> 01:52:18,160
Speaker 2: and just do some photos so at least I will

1736
01:52:18,200 --> 01:52:20,680
Speaker 2: have done something because this I've been looking forward to

1737
01:52:20,760 --> 01:52:24,000
Speaker 2: this now for months and to singing, so it's a

1738
01:52:24,040 --> 01:52:26,479
Speaker 2: big disappointment to me to not be able to do that.

1739
01:52:26,640 --> 01:52:31,840
Speaker 2: But I'd like to come out there anyway and just

1740
01:52:31,920 --> 01:52:36,000
Speaker 2: do some photos. And I did, and I wound up

1741
01:52:36,320 --> 01:52:40,840
Speaker 2: shooting the whole tour, and I wound up singing on

1742
01:52:40,960 --> 01:52:50,639
Speaker 2: the song Rosie on that album, which it's not as

1743
01:52:50,720 --> 01:52:53,120
Speaker 2: great as being able to sing all the songs. I

1744
01:52:53,240 --> 01:52:56,880
Speaker 2: loved being able to work out all those harmonies. So

1745
01:52:57,080 --> 01:53:01,080
Speaker 2: it was a big disappointment, my biggest disappointment actually professionally

1746
01:53:01,200 --> 01:53:06,320
Speaker 2: up to that point, to have the expectations of being

1747
01:53:06,360 --> 01:53:08,920
Speaker 2: a singer and then not being able to do it.

1748
01:53:09,520 --> 01:53:12,000
Speaker 2: But I did get some really good photos, and I

1749
01:53:12,080 --> 01:53:14,639
Speaker 2: did the running on Empty cover and all the many

1750
01:53:14,720 --> 01:53:16,320
Speaker 2: of the photos that most of the photos that you

1751
01:53:16,400 --> 01:53:19,080
Speaker 2: see on that package, all of which were lost by

1752
01:53:19,120 --> 01:53:19,799
Speaker 2: the art director.

1753
01:53:20,200 --> 01:53:23,840
Speaker 1: But ultimately you were telling this story connecting to Springsteen.

1754
01:53:25,200 --> 01:53:28,599
Speaker 2: Oh yes, pardon me. I believe that that Jackson introduced

1755
01:53:28,640 --> 01:53:33,240
Speaker 2: me to John Landau because John had produced the Pretender album,

1756
01:53:34,560 --> 01:53:41,240
Speaker 2: and somehow the subject of Bruce's new album cover came up,

1757
01:53:41,439 --> 01:53:44,360
Speaker 2: which was Darkness on the Edge of Town, and John

1758
01:53:44,439 --> 01:53:47,040
Speaker 2: asked me what I thought of it, and I felt

1759
01:53:47,320 --> 01:53:50,559
Speaker 2: I said, you know, it's a good photo on its own, right,

1760
01:53:51,400 --> 01:53:54,040
Speaker 2: but it has nothing to do with the title or

1761
01:53:54,160 --> 01:53:55,400
Speaker 2: the feel of the song.

1762
01:53:55,520 --> 01:53:55,760
Speaker 1: To me.

1763
01:53:57,000 --> 01:53:59,160
Speaker 2: The phrase darkness on the edge of town, to me,

1764
01:53:59,360 --> 01:54:04,640
Speaker 2: conjures up a very vibe kind of thing, almost like

1765
01:54:04,800 --> 01:54:06,599
Speaker 2: I don't know, you probably know the photo of Bruce

1766
01:54:06,640 --> 01:54:08,560
Speaker 2: sitting on a stoop, like at a outside of a

1767
01:54:09,000 --> 01:54:11,160
Speaker 2: gas station. I think it is, or maybe it's like

1768
01:54:11,280 --> 01:54:16,120
Speaker 2: a store at night in New Jersey somewhere. In other words,

1769
01:54:16,840 --> 01:54:21,080
Speaker 2: I was thinking more of a more moody kind of thing,

1770
01:54:21,160 --> 01:54:24,640
Speaker 2: where this is like actually studio lighting set up in

1771
01:54:24,720 --> 01:54:29,840
Speaker 2: Bruce's home. It just didn't I just said I was

1772
01:54:29,880 --> 01:54:31,280
Speaker 2: trying to be honest with him. I just said, I

1773
01:54:31,320 --> 01:54:36,320
Speaker 2: don't think it has the right feel. And then he

1774
01:54:36,440 --> 01:54:38,960
Speaker 2: called and said, would you come in photograph Bruce like

1775
01:54:39,320 --> 01:54:41,960
Speaker 2: you know, in the next couple of weeks he's recording

1776
01:54:42,040 --> 01:54:47,600
Speaker 2: some new songs. So I went to New York after

1777
01:54:47,720 --> 01:54:52,960
Speaker 2: having just photographed Tom petty In working on the Dan

1778
01:54:53,040 --> 01:54:56,440
Speaker 2: the Torpedo sessions, and I went to New York and

1779
01:54:56,560 --> 01:55:01,600
Speaker 2: met Bruce and he was working on an album. His

1780
01:55:01,760 --> 01:55:04,720
Speaker 2: next album was going to be called The Ties That Bind,

1781
01:55:05,280 --> 01:55:09,960
Speaker 2: and it was a single album that he'd written. Uh,

1782
01:55:10,240 --> 01:55:13,440
Speaker 2: and he invited me to the session, which was amazing

1783
01:55:13,440 --> 01:55:17,600
Speaker 2: because apparently people he never did that. But so I

1784
01:55:17,680 --> 01:55:21,840
Speaker 2: got to be there when he taught the band the

1785
01:55:21,960 --> 01:55:24,240
Speaker 2: song the River, and then be there for when they

1786
01:55:24,280 --> 01:55:27,600
Speaker 2: got the master tape, which is quite amazing. And he

1787
01:55:27,840 --> 01:55:32,080
Speaker 2: was just a few days before the muse concerts that

1788
01:55:32,240 --> 01:55:37,600
Speaker 2: Bruce played at the multi artist anti nuclear benefit concerts

1789
01:55:37,680 --> 01:55:45,080
Speaker 2: of multiple days in Madison Square Garden that I photographed. So, uh,

1790
01:55:45,400 --> 01:55:47,560
Speaker 2: that's how I met Bruce. He he I got to

1791
01:55:47,600 --> 01:55:50,560
Speaker 2: spend time with him at his home. I took pictures

1792
01:55:50,600 --> 01:55:53,120
Speaker 2: of him on the boardwalk, and you know, he took

1793
01:55:53,200 --> 01:55:58,160
Speaker 2: me around to his favorite places in New Jersey. I

1794
01:55:58,760 --> 01:56:01,880
Speaker 2: learned later when I when the album finally came out

1795
01:56:02,120 --> 01:56:05,000
Speaker 2: as a double album, the River Album, and I was

1796
01:56:05,040 --> 01:56:08,600
Speaker 2: looking at which pictures were mine and which weren't. There

1797
01:56:08,680 --> 01:56:10,960
Speaker 2: was only a few pictures of mine on there that

1798
01:56:11,080 --> 01:56:14,400
Speaker 2: he used at the time. But I could see that

1799
01:56:14,480 --> 01:56:17,720
Speaker 2: he had taken David Garr and Annie Leebowitz to the

1800
01:56:17,800 --> 01:56:21,840
Speaker 2: same places that he had taken me too. It was

1801
01:56:22,240 --> 01:56:24,280
Speaker 2: like right and not just as there was one other

1802
01:56:26,000 --> 01:56:28,919
Speaker 2: the person who did the picture of him with the corvette,

1803
01:56:28,960 --> 01:56:31,360
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, his name is escaping me. Great photographer, Frank

1804
01:56:31,680 --> 01:56:35,600
Speaker 2: Frank Stefanco. So four of us he had us go.

1805
01:56:36,200 --> 01:56:37,520
Speaker 2: You know, it's like this is the house, this is

1806
01:56:37,560 --> 01:56:40,040
Speaker 2: a block I grew up on, and you know here

1807
01:56:40,160 --> 01:56:42,360
Speaker 2: here we are in Holme Dell. It was a really

1808
01:56:42,440 --> 01:56:51,200
Speaker 2: kind of an interesting thing and it was I love

1809
01:56:51,720 --> 01:56:57,320
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed him. He was very understated. He was

1810
01:56:57,480 --> 01:56:58,560
Speaker 2: the king of New Jersey.

1811
01:57:00,560 --> 01:57:00,720
Speaker 1: You know.

1812
01:57:01,000 --> 01:57:03,640
Speaker 2: I went with him to the Stone Pony. He was

1813
01:57:03,760 --> 01:57:07,800
Speaker 2: like God, you know, he wasn't not from his viewpoint,

1814
01:57:07,840 --> 01:57:09,880
Speaker 2: from the point of view of the fans and how

1815
01:57:09,920 --> 01:57:13,160
Speaker 2: he was regarded. But I got to, for example, drive

1816
01:57:13,600 --> 01:57:18,880
Speaker 2: under the full moonlight in the black Corvette with you know,

1817
01:57:19,120 --> 01:57:21,920
Speaker 2: in the passenger seat, with the full moon overhead in

1818
01:57:22,000 --> 01:57:24,440
Speaker 2: the trees while we had the listening to a Sun

1819
01:57:24,560 --> 01:57:30,800
Speaker 2: Records compilation cassette he had made in the corvette on

1820
01:57:30,920 --> 01:57:35,360
Speaker 2: our way to the Stone Pony, and it was another

1821
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:39,200
Speaker 2: like in the realm of dropping into these worlds. That

1822
01:57:39,360 --> 01:57:42,000
Speaker 2: was an amazing world to drop into. The Bruce Springsteen

1823
01:57:42,200 --> 01:57:43,080
Speaker 2: New Jersey world.

1824
01:57:44,000 --> 01:57:47,840
Speaker 1: Okay, you know you're not a rock store. So there

1825
01:57:47,960 --> 01:57:51,240
Speaker 1: was all this rock scene in San Francisco in the sixties.

1826
01:57:52,480 --> 01:57:55,520
Speaker 1: Then there was a scene in La But as we

1827
01:57:55,800 --> 01:58:00,160
Speaker 1: hit the seventies and eighties, it's more and more lay.

1828
01:58:00,840 --> 01:58:04,680
Speaker 1: You're living in San Francisco, you feel like you're missing out.

1829
01:58:05,760 --> 01:58:13,320
Speaker 2: And a very good question. Interestingly, as the seventies went on,

1830
01:58:15,000 --> 01:58:17,360
Speaker 2: you know, as you say, in the beginning of the seventies,

1831
01:58:17,560 --> 01:58:21,800
Speaker 2: late sixties, early seventies, San Francisco was a big music scene.

1832
01:58:22,440 --> 01:58:27,120
Speaker 2: When Neil played in Buffalo Springfield in sixty seven and

1833
01:58:28,080 --> 01:58:31,919
Speaker 2: they were coming up here to do their first shows.

1834
01:58:33,000 --> 01:58:36,280
Speaker 2: There's an amazing interview with him by a DJ named

1835
01:58:36,320 --> 01:58:40,360
Speaker 2: Tony Pigg where Neil talks about like how intimidating it

1836
01:58:40,560 --> 01:58:43,200
Speaker 2: was to be from La and come up in nineteen

1837
01:58:43,240 --> 01:58:47,360
Speaker 2: sixty seven and come up to San Francisco with the

1838
01:58:47,480 --> 01:58:49,440
Speaker 2: bands that he said, well, are you kidding? You guys

1839
01:58:49,520 --> 01:58:54,640
Speaker 2: have the Airplane and the Dead, but you have and Quicksilver,

1840
01:58:55,360 --> 01:58:58,920
Speaker 2: right but really but like you have Moby Graate. Okay,

1841
01:58:58,960 --> 01:59:02,360
Speaker 2: So the biggest in fluences for Neil and Buffalo Springfield

1842
01:59:02,400 --> 01:59:12,600
Speaker 2: are Moby Grape and love seriously right Forever changes And

1843
01:59:13,680 --> 01:59:18,560
Speaker 2: so to him it was like very intimidating to come

1844
01:59:18,680 --> 01:59:25,560
Speaker 2: to northern California. So anyway, that scene did go on,

1845
01:59:25,800 --> 01:59:29,960
Speaker 2: and here's you know, Crosby does his solo album the

1846
01:59:30,120 --> 01:59:33,760
Speaker 2: same month that Jerry Garcia does his solo album, and

1847
01:59:34,440 --> 01:59:36,480
Speaker 2: right they're next to each other in the same studio.

1848
01:59:36,560 --> 01:59:39,320
Speaker 2: So you get this great bleed through with all of

1849
01:59:39,760 --> 01:59:42,760
Speaker 2: you know, these people playing together. You get members of

1850
01:59:43,360 --> 01:59:48,320
Speaker 2: the Airplane and the Dead together playing on both Jerry's

1851
01:59:48,360 --> 01:59:52,600
Speaker 2: album and in Crosby's album. To me, I would say

1852
01:59:52,640 --> 01:59:55,839
Speaker 2: there's something especially about David's album there that is almost

1853
01:59:56,360 --> 02:00:02,760
Speaker 2: like the pinnacle in some ways in terms of execution

1854
02:00:03,000 --> 02:00:09,280
Speaker 2: and really doing something fantastically well of Crosby's If I

1855
02:00:09,320 --> 02:00:12,200
Speaker 2: could only remember my name album, and I think that

1856
02:00:13,160 --> 02:00:19,600
Speaker 2: was a great, uh, you know, work of art for him,

1857
02:00:19,680 --> 02:00:23,120
Speaker 2: and and and showed you what that scene was was

1858
02:00:23,200 --> 02:00:27,680
Speaker 2: capable of. But as you say, it gradually went away

1859
02:00:27,880 --> 02:00:31,800
Speaker 2: until by the late seventies things had definitely shifted for La.

1860
02:00:32,800 --> 02:00:35,920
Speaker 2: I didn't feel having lived there, I was not going

1861
02:00:36,000 --> 02:00:38,600
Speaker 2: to move back to La. I didn't care for it.

1862
02:00:39,280 --> 02:00:40,040
Speaker 2: I really didn't.

1863
02:00:40,120 --> 02:00:40,400
Speaker 1: I was.

1864
02:00:40,600 --> 02:00:45,400
Speaker 2: I liked the green of northern California more. I liked

1865
02:00:45,440 --> 02:00:51,160
Speaker 2: that it was more urbane and not so sprawled and diffuse.

1866
02:00:51,360 --> 02:00:56,800
Speaker 2: And I think that Hollywood, that the film business, which

1867
02:00:56,920 --> 02:01:00,120
Speaker 2: you know, really came to precedence way over you know,

1868
02:01:00,240 --> 02:01:04,120
Speaker 2: became the uh I'm sure always been, but at least

1869
02:01:04,720 --> 02:01:07,800
Speaker 2: what I could see, you know, the music business was

1870
02:01:09,240 --> 02:01:11,880
Speaker 2: the whole of it was considered like a little step

1871
02:01:12,000 --> 02:01:15,720
Speaker 2: child compared to film in Hollywood. Right, it was just like, oh,

1872
02:01:15,760 --> 02:01:18,920
Speaker 2: you're in Oh you're in music. Oh that's so pat

1873
02:01:19,000 --> 02:01:22,240
Speaker 2: on the head, you know, that's so nice. How interesting

1874
02:01:22,320 --> 02:01:22,760
Speaker 2: for you is that?

1875
02:01:22,960 --> 02:01:23,480
Speaker 1: Do you like that?

1876
02:01:23,680 --> 02:01:27,000
Speaker 2: You like being making records? That kind of thing. So

1877
02:01:29,840 --> 02:01:33,440
Speaker 2: also you had this other thing going on, which was

1878
02:01:33,600 --> 02:01:37,880
Speaker 2: the ascension of cocaine and what that did you know,

1879
02:01:38,560 --> 02:01:41,520
Speaker 2: among groups that previously had smoked pot, and what the

1880
02:01:41,680 --> 02:01:45,600
Speaker 2: difference in that vibe was going on in the same

1881
02:01:45,800 --> 02:01:48,640
Speaker 2: in that same sweep of time right through the seventies.

1882
02:01:49,600 --> 02:01:54,240
Speaker 1: Okay, you end up running mew Young's archives for a while.

1883
02:01:54,320 --> 02:01:57,720
Speaker 1: How did that come to be? In what was that? Like?

1884
02:02:00,560 --> 02:02:04,440
Speaker 2: What happened was Let's see, I had been asked in

1885
02:02:05,160 --> 02:02:07,600
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty four when I was on a Neil Young tour,

1886
02:02:07,680 --> 02:02:10,160
Speaker 2: could I could I stop what I was doing and

1887
02:02:10,280 --> 02:02:14,360
Speaker 2: become Prince's guitar tech They just fired the guitar technician

1888
02:02:14,440 --> 02:02:16,400
Speaker 2: on the Purple Rain tour. Could I come and finish

1889
02:02:16,480 --> 02:02:20,000
Speaker 2: the tour? Well, I have five shows left with my

1890
02:02:20,120 --> 02:02:22,600
Speaker 2: Neil Young tour, which is like a country the country

1891
02:02:23,360 --> 02:02:26,840
Speaker 2: bands that he was doing. But I could I could

1892
02:02:26,960 --> 02:02:30,400
Speaker 2: be there like in you know, eight or nine days, No,

1893
02:02:30,520 --> 02:02:34,080
Speaker 2: we need you somebody here tomorrow. I just said, well,

1894
02:02:35,000 --> 02:02:37,600
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, I got to finish this tour and can't

1895
02:02:37,640 --> 02:02:40,120
Speaker 2: you just leave? And I said, you wouldn't want to

1896
02:02:40,160 --> 02:02:42,760
Speaker 2: hire me and then have me, you know, flake out

1897
02:02:42,800 --> 02:02:44,680
Speaker 2: on you in the last eight days of the tour,

1898
02:02:44,760 --> 02:02:48,400
Speaker 2: would you right? So No, I can't. I can't do that.

1899
02:02:48,480 --> 02:02:51,200
Speaker 2: I'm sorry, Like if you can, if it just if

1900
02:02:51,760 --> 02:02:55,680
Speaker 2: in a week or two weeks. You need still need somebody,

1901
02:02:55,920 --> 02:02:58,120
Speaker 2: let me give me a call. Never heard from them again.

1902
02:02:59,320 --> 02:03:06,040
Speaker 2: Three years later I get a call, Joel, could you

1903
02:03:06,240 --> 02:03:11,840
Speaker 2: be in Minneapolis like on January tewod Prince needs get

1904
02:03:11,840 --> 02:03:15,080
Speaker 2: a new guitar and technician. He needs to figure out

1905
02:03:15,120 --> 02:03:17,280
Speaker 2: something about his guitar soundup. He's not happy with his

1906
02:03:17,400 --> 02:03:20,840
Speaker 2: guitar sound So I thought it was like, Okay, this

1907
02:03:20,920 --> 02:03:22,920
Speaker 2: will be like a little consultant kind of thing and

1908
02:03:22,960 --> 02:03:24,440
Speaker 2: I'll figure it out what it is will be a

1909
02:03:24,480 --> 02:03:30,320
Speaker 2: few days. And instead I did work with one of

1910
02:03:30,360 --> 02:03:34,280
Speaker 2: his technicians to fix the problem he was having. It

1911
02:03:34,400 --> 02:03:37,600
Speaker 2: was completely different than any other scene that I had

1912
02:03:37,760 --> 02:03:42,720
Speaker 2: been at. It was quite wild, and he was Mozartian

1913
02:03:42,880 --> 02:03:43,680
Speaker 2: and his genius.

1914
02:03:44,080 --> 02:03:45,960
Speaker 1: Okay, but you're telling me about how you end up

1915
02:03:46,000 --> 02:03:46,920
Speaker 1: working for the Archives.

1916
02:03:47,680 --> 02:03:53,400
Speaker 2: After I worked for Prince, which was a wonderful life

1917
02:03:53,480 --> 02:03:59,560
Speaker 2: changing thing to do, I got a call from Neil

1918
02:03:59,640 --> 02:04:02,480
Speaker 2: that he was working on his what was going to

1919
02:04:02,560 --> 02:04:06,160
Speaker 2: be Decade two. He had the Decade album from nineteen

1920
02:04:06,200 --> 02:04:09,400
Speaker 2: seventy six. He was originally going to do It's starting

1921
02:04:09,440 --> 02:04:11,640
Speaker 2: in eighty six, but it kept going on and it

1922
02:04:11,800 --> 02:04:16,200
Speaker 2: wasn't being It wasn't finished he was still working on it.

1923
02:04:16,360 --> 02:04:21,120
Speaker 2: Could I come and oh, could I come with him

1924
02:04:21,120 --> 02:04:21,840
Speaker 2: and help him with that?

1925
02:04:22,480 --> 02:04:27,240
Speaker 1: So I I did.

1926
02:04:27,920 --> 02:04:31,320
Speaker 2: This was now nineteen ninety and I started in January

1927
02:04:31,760 --> 02:04:34,520
Speaker 2: and originally was just going to do the artwork and

1928
02:04:34,600 --> 02:04:38,120
Speaker 2: the photographs. And also I got his chronology together. He

1929
02:04:38,160 --> 02:04:40,720
Speaker 2: didn't have a sense of like what happened when, so

1930
02:04:41,240 --> 02:04:43,120
Speaker 2: he had a sense, but he wasn't correct for a

1931
02:04:43,160 --> 02:04:46,600
Speaker 2: lot of it. So I did a database in which

1932
02:04:46,640 --> 02:04:49,640
Speaker 2: we could see the total chronology of Neil Young from

1933
02:04:49,720 --> 02:04:52,400
Speaker 2: before Buffalo Springfield, from when he was in the Squire's's

1934
02:04:52,480 --> 02:04:55,080
Speaker 2: Band in Canada all the way to the present day.

1935
02:04:55,720 --> 02:05:03,480
Speaker 2: And then I became the me to do the He said, well,

1936
02:05:03,520 --> 02:05:06,120
Speaker 2: here's a list of the things I'm interested in putting

1937
02:05:06,160 --> 02:05:07,880
Speaker 2: out and I said, yeah, but you skipped over this

1938
02:05:08,120 --> 02:05:11,720
Speaker 2: and this and this and this. So he said, you know,

1939
02:05:12,280 --> 02:05:16,080
Speaker 2: why don't you do this part too, Like you you

1940
02:05:16,160 --> 02:05:18,480
Speaker 2: can be the archivist for the music stuff too, because

1941
02:05:18,480 --> 02:05:20,440
Speaker 2: I want to know what you know a lot of

1942
02:05:20,440 --> 02:05:23,880
Speaker 2: stuff I've forgotten. So that's how all of that became.

1943
02:05:23,960 --> 02:05:26,400
Speaker 2: And I was his archivist for about twenty years.

1944
02:05:26,840 --> 02:05:28,840
Speaker 1: And was that essentially a full time job?

1945
02:05:29,840 --> 02:05:34,680
Speaker 2: Yes, it was so that what was that that job

1946
02:05:34,840 --> 02:05:37,760
Speaker 2: was So imagine if you're Neil Young and you want

1947
02:05:37,800 --> 02:05:41,320
Speaker 2: to put out I asked him one day, like, so, Neil,

1948
02:05:41,400 --> 02:05:44,080
Speaker 2: are you do you have a sense of like, uh

1949
02:05:44,240 --> 02:05:46,080
Speaker 2: in this in this box set you want to do,

1950
02:05:46,720 --> 02:05:48,240
Speaker 2: is it going? Do you have a sense of the

1951
02:05:48,320 --> 02:05:52,960
Speaker 2: relationship of release material versus unreleased material? He thought for

1952
02:05:53,000 --> 02:05:55,200
Speaker 2: a second. He said, no, it's not whether it's released

1953
02:05:55,280 --> 02:05:58,520
Speaker 2: or not. I just want the best. So I said,

1954
02:05:58,680 --> 02:06:02,520
Speaker 2: so you're looking for the best performances of the best songs.

1955
02:06:02,880 --> 02:06:05,880
Speaker 2: He said, That's exactly what I'm looking for. So I

1956
02:06:06,000 --> 02:06:08,680
Speaker 2: took it upon myself to go and do that listening

1957
02:06:08,840 --> 02:06:12,360
Speaker 2: for him, so I could say, okay, Neil, of all

1958
02:06:12,440 --> 02:06:15,120
Speaker 2: of the versions of calgaryl and the Sand you've ever done,

1959
02:06:15,520 --> 02:06:17,600
Speaker 2: these are the only three you need to listen to

1960
02:06:17,600 --> 02:06:20,400
Speaker 2: to figure out the best one. Because if it's already

1961
02:06:20,440 --> 02:06:22,840
Speaker 2: come out on it as an album, whatever the best

1962
02:06:22,960 --> 02:06:25,680
Speaker 2: is has to be better than that master better than

1963
02:06:25,720 --> 02:06:29,520
Speaker 2: the released album, whether it's a demo or a live

1964
02:06:29,680 --> 02:06:32,680
Speaker 2: version or whatever. So I did that for years and

1965
02:06:33,080 --> 02:06:36,360
Speaker 2: listened to all as much music as I could, studio

1966
02:06:36,560 --> 02:06:40,960
Speaker 2: and live of his to pick what was the very

1967
02:06:41,000 --> 02:06:42,560
Speaker 2: best Neil Young music.

1968
02:06:43,680 --> 02:06:46,280
Speaker 1: We're in this story. Do you meet your wife and

1969
02:06:46,400 --> 02:06:47,080
Speaker 1: have children?

1970
02:06:49,160 --> 02:06:52,879
Speaker 2: I don't. I don't get married and I don't have children.

1971
02:06:53,200 --> 02:06:54,360
Speaker 2: That they're not in the story.

1972
02:06:54,400 --> 02:06:57,240
Speaker 1: Okay, well you know the same. You know, my research

1973
02:06:57,440 --> 02:07:00,840
Speaker 1: is kind of funny. Just as an aside, I wanted

1974
02:07:00,880 --> 02:07:03,080
Speaker 1: to know what year you were born in and it

1975
02:07:03,200 --> 02:07:09,880
Speaker 1: said you were dead AI, and it was definitely Joel Bernstein,

1976
02:07:09,960 --> 02:07:10,800
Speaker 1: the photographer.

1977
02:07:11,680 --> 02:07:14,120
Speaker 2: Okay, so check this out. This is you're reminding me

1978
02:07:14,200 --> 02:07:18,360
Speaker 2: of a moment I have to which is this. I'm

1979
02:07:19,120 --> 02:07:21,720
Speaker 2: I'm rarely ill, but at this point I'm at my

1980
02:07:21,960 --> 02:07:24,640
Speaker 2: apartment in San Francisco next door to Grams. I have

1981
02:07:24,760 --> 02:07:30,800
Speaker 2: a really high fever and feeling terrible. And the phone

1982
02:07:30,840 --> 02:07:33,960
Speaker 2: starts ringing off the hook and it's people I know,

1983
02:07:34,040 --> 02:07:37,600
Speaker 2: and they're going, oh, oh you're there.

1984
02:07:37,920 --> 02:07:40,000
Speaker 3: I knew you were there, Thank God.

1985
02:07:40,720 --> 02:07:43,960
Speaker 2: The next call is like they're crying on the phone.

1986
02:07:44,600 --> 02:07:46,160
Speaker 1: What what is this? Okay.

1987
02:07:46,280 --> 02:07:50,840
Speaker 2: It turns out that it's the night of the Grammys

1988
02:07:52,640 --> 02:07:58,240
Speaker 2: and they're doing the memorial section in the Grammys and

1989
02:07:58,440 --> 02:08:01,400
Speaker 2: the you know, the narrow and saying and you know,

1990
02:08:01,520 --> 02:08:04,760
Speaker 2: with this person passed away in sadly and this next

1991
02:08:04,800 --> 02:08:10,520
Speaker 2: person and Rock photographer Joel Brodsky passed away. So it

1992
02:08:10,640 --> 02:08:13,120
Speaker 2: turns out that the guy on the desk, the entertainment

1993
02:08:13,280 --> 02:08:18,000
Speaker 2: guy who's watching the Grammys, hears rock photographer Joel and

1994
02:08:18,120 --> 02:08:21,800
Speaker 2: he just immediately thinks it's me because I'm from Philadelphia.

1995
02:08:21,920 --> 02:08:24,960
Speaker 2: He's the Philadelphia paper. He writes up in the paper

1996
02:08:25,160 --> 02:08:29,400
Speaker 2: and online that Joel Bernstein has died. Unfortunately, right Rock

1997
02:08:30,080 --> 02:08:33,160
Speaker 2: after his successful career with Crosby Stoleson Nash and Joni

1998
02:08:33,200 --> 02:08:37,120
Speaker 2: Mitchell and Neili yelling yourself, apparently he's dead and that's

1999
02:08:37,160 --> 02:08:38,320
Speaker 2: why everybody was calling me.

2000
02:08:40,520 --> 02:08:43,480
Speaker 1: Well, you know, that's probably part of what's going on

2001
02:08:43,720 --> 02:08:46,200
Speaker 1: in AI, which is also I did you know, because

2002
02:08:46,320 --> 02:08:49,560
Speaker 1: obviously Joel Bernstein, You're not the only Joel Bernstein, but

2003
02:08:49,680 --> 02:08:54,240
Speaker 1: in terms of Joel Bernstein, rock photographer, and you look

2004
02:08:54,320 --> 02:08:57,040
Speaker 1: and it says two children's name whatever.

2005
02:08:57,240 --> 02:09:00,880
Speaker 2: It's like, Okay, I wonder, see I wonder if you

2006
02:09:01,000 --> 02:09:04,600
Speaker 2: put parentheses around the Joel bost Believe me, you said.

2007
02:09:04,640 --> 02:09:07,760
Speaker 1: Believe me. Okay, I'm an expert googler.

2008
02:09:08,120 --> 02:09:11,400
Speaker 2: Oh okay, got it, I get it. That's really funny.

2009
02:09:11,680 --> 02:09:14,760
Speaker 1: Okay. A couple of questions here. You talked about the

2010
02:09:15,000 --> 02:09:18,120
Speaker 1: album cover after the ghuld Rush and Elliott told you.

2011
02:09:18,200 --> 02:09:19,080
Speaker 2: What to charge?

2012
02:09:20,320 --> 02:09:22,880
Speaker 1: How did you decide what to charge your I mean

2013
02:09:23,000 --> 02:09:26,080
Speaker 1: some things like guitar tick, there's an at there's a

2014
02:09:26,200 --> 02:09:26,840
Speaker 1: range of real.

2015
02:09:26,920 --> 02:09:28,720
Speaker 2: Right, there's going to be you're going to get a

2016
02:09:29,120 --> 02:09:30,720
Speaker 2: weekly salary in per diem.

2017
02:09:31,840 --> 02:09:34,760
Speaker 1: Right, But if you're shooting a photo that is used

2018
02:09:34,760 --> 02:09:37,760
Speaker 1: for certain purpose, right, you know it could be anything

2019
02:09:37,840 --> 02:09:42,000
Speaker 1: from zero to you know, fifty thousand dollars, Right, how

2020
02:09:42,040 --> 02:09:43,760
Speaker 1: do you decide what the price is?

2021
02:09:45,040 --> 02:09:47,720
Speaker 2: I guess you learn more at the time, like what

2022
02:09:48,000 --> 02:09:51,960
Speaker 2: could what could you charge? When he suggested that, I

2023
02:09:52,120 --> 02:09:54,640
Speaker 2: charged them fifteen hundred dollars, you know, for the front,

2024
02:09:54,760 --> 02:09:59,720
Speaker 2: back and inside of that. Then when I saw the poster,

2025
02:10:00,440 --> 02:10:02,560
Speaker 2: I called them back and said, so there's a poster

2026
02:10:02,920 --> 02:10:06,120
Speaker 2: also a different shot. Send them another bill for five

2027
02:10:06,200 --> 02:10:10,760
Speaker 2: hundred dollars. So that was like my basis.

2028
02:10:11,000 --> 02:10:11,600
Speaker 1: I guess.

2029
02:10:13,600 --> 02:10:15,880
Speaker 2: Those are just numbers he came up with. I don't

2030
02:10:15,960 --> 02:10:19,880
Speaker 2: know whether they were commensurate with what the figures were

2031
02:10:19,920 --> 02:10:26,760
Speaker 2: at the time, honestly, but you know, over time, when

2032
02:10:26,800 --> 02:10:31,240
Speaker 2: you're starting, you know, you every one who's paying you

2033
02:10:31,280 --> 02:10:34,000
Speaker 2: wants to pay as little as possible, and it takes

2034
02:10:34,120 --> 02:10:41,440
Speaker 2: time for you two years to say, well, somebody you

2035
02:10:41,560 --> 02:10:45,080
Speaker 2: know paid me this much for that same usage, so

2036
02:10:45,320 --> 02:10:47,320
Speaker 2: that that's what I'm going to charge you for that

2037
02:10:47,520 --> 02:10:51,880
Speaker 2: cover or for that the inside of your songbook or

2038
02:10:51,960 --> 02:10:55,600
Speaker 2: you know, whatever the thing is. Right, So, all through

2039
02:10:56,040 --> 02:11:01,240
Speaker 2: my whole career, I've had to make those decisions about

2040
02:11:01,320 --> 02:11:07,360
Speaker 2: like what to charge. You know, I'm not a great

2041
02:11:07,400 --> 02:11:09,800
Speaker 2: business person. I probably could have if I had been

2042
02:11:10,000 --> 02:11:14,240
Speaker 2: more when you asked, like was I pounding the pavement

2043
02:11:14,320 --> 02:11:18,080
Speaker 2: and taking my portfolio, for example, to Columbia Records in

2044
02:11:18,320 --> 02:11:21,400
Speaker 2: LA when like in the early seven mid seventies or

2045
02:11:21,440 --> 02:11:23,440
Speaker 2: something when I could have been doing that, I didn't.

2046
02:11:24,480 --> 02:11:27,560
Speaker 2: I think I was more let's just let it happen,

2047
02:11:27,880 --> 02:11:30,400
Speaker 2: like let's just see. You know. I think if I

2048
02:11:32,400 --> 02:11:35,880
Speaker 2: was not making enough money to pay my rent and

2049
02:11:36,120 --> 02:11:38,920
Speaker 2: buy groceries, that I would have would have done those

2050
02:11:39,000 --> 02:11:40,600
Speaker 2: things and like pounded the pavement more.

2051
02:11:40,960 --> 02:11:45,680
Speaker 1: Okay. Another big issue now more than ever is ownership. Yes,

2052
02:11:46,600 --> 02:11:48,760
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff today is licensed yet and now

2053
02:11:48,760 --> 02:11:51,960
Speaker 1: I'm cover a license license in perpetuity for this use

2054
02:11:52,160 --> 02:11:54,520
Speaker 1: if you want to use it for something. Right, So

2055
02:11:54,800 --> 02:11:58,320
Speaker 1: all of this legendary stuff that you did, do you

2056
02:11:58,520 --> 02:12:00,879
Speaker 1: own in it? Or did you all the rights.

2057
02:12:02,480 --> 02:12:05,360
Speaker 2: I own the copyright to everything, and I the rights

2058
02:12:05,400 --> 02:12:08,080
Speaker 2: I sold would be as you say, would be license,

2059
02:12:08,800 --> 02:12:13,680
Speaker 2: would be a one time use license for whatever it

2060
02:12:13,880 --> 02:12:20,240
Speaker 2: was for Rolling Stone Magazine, for Columbia Records, for you know,

2061
02:12:21,320 --> 02:12:25,720
Speaker 2: mainly for the use in a documentary film. For example,

2062
02:12:25,920 --> 02:12:30,680
Speaker 2: I'm currently working on a documentary of I've had a

2063
02:12:30,720 --> 02:12:36,440
Speaker 2: lot of photos used in documents, documentary films, uh for

2064
02:12:37,240 --> 02:12:39,800
Speaker 2: that I used that used a lot of my photos,

2065
02:12:39,800 --> 02:12:45,320
Speaker 2: including for Tom Petty, The Heartbreakers, for Bruce Springsteen, for Jonie,

2066
02:12:46,240 --> 02:12:50,840
Speaker 2: for Neil and I'm currently working on a documentary film

2067
02:12:51,120 --> 02:12:56,560
Speaker 2: on Crosby, Stills and Nash and their history. So you know,

2068
02:12:56,760 --> 02:12:59,720
Speaker 2: in the end of the the to the what I

2069
02:12:59,760 --> 02:13:02,959
Speaker 2: get paid will be a function of how many images

2070
02:13:03,560 --> 02:13:07,720
Speaker 2: are they using and what rate do we negotiate at

2071
02:13:08,240 --> 02:13:14,680
Speaker 2: those for those hundred those those usages. The more usages

2072
02:13:14,760 --> 02:13:20,200
Speaker 2: you have, the less the rate goes down. If you

2073
02:13:20,440 --> 02:13:24,600
Speaker 2: use like fifty of something instead of ten, right, or

2074
02:13:24,680 --> 02:13:27,960
Speaker 2: if you use one hundred instead of twenty, right, those

2075
02:13:28,080 --> 02:13:30,400
Speaker 2: kinds of things. So and you just have to become

2076
02:13:30,560 --> 02:13:34,920
Speaker 2: familiar with what is the going rate that my peers,

2077
02:13:34,960 --> 02:13:37,839
Speaker 2: for example, are getting charged for the same kind of usages.

2078
02:13:38,760 --> 02:13:44,240
Speaker 1: Okay, if you're a musician, as one ages irrelevant of

2079
02:13:44,320 --> 02:13:47,640
Speaker 1: playing live, all the money is in the publishing as

2080
02:13:47,680 --> 02:13:51,560
Speaker 1: opposed to the record royalties at dis laid date owning

2081
02:13:51,680 --> 02:13:56,440
Speaker 1: these iconic images. Yes, there's one time events like these movies.

2082
02:13:56,560 --> 02:14:00,200
Speaker 1: But if you annualize it, is this like cab a

2083
02:14:00,320 --> 02:14:01,800
Speaker 1: pension or is it not that loose?

2084
02:14:02,840 --> 02:14:06,280
Speaker 2: That's a good question. I would say it's never risen

2085
02:14:06,320 --> 02:14:10,480
Speaker 2: to the to the level of it being maybe there

2086
02:14:10,560 --> 02:14:12,880
Speaker 2: have been some years where it could it could be

2087
02:14:13,040 --> 02:14:20,240
Speaker 2: a significant part of my income. It's it's not like

2088
02:14:21,800 --> 02:14:26,200
Speaker 2: especially as a photography Let's see, I have to back up.

2089
02:14:26,960 --> 02:14:31,040
Speaker 2: I started selling prints of my photographs starting with Neil

2090
02:14:31,120 --> 02:14:36,879
Speaker 2: Young Prince in twenty eleven. So I've had a business

2091
02:14:37,480 --> 02:14:40,720
Speaker 2: doing that where my prints are sold at galleries. They

2092
02:14:40,760 --> 02:14:45,480
Speaker 2: are also now sold online in my website Joel Bernstein

2093
02:14:45,520 --> 02:14:45,920
Speaker 2: dot com.

2094
02:14:46,400 --> 02:14:48,720
Speaker 1: And so the.

2095
02:14:51,000 --> 02:14:54,400
Speaker 2: Figuring out which photos people want to buy and how

2096
02:14:54,560 --> 02:14:58,320
Speaker 2: you want to present those photos to them something I've

2097
02:14:58,360 --> 02:15:03,200
Speaker 2: been doing since since twenty eleven. So that's been a

2098
02:15:03,240 --> 02:15:07,080
Speaker 2: big thrill actually for me, and that helps. It's not

2099
02:15:07,320 --> 02:15:11,040
Speaker 2: again going to support me, but it's going to add

2100
02:15:11,240 --> 02:15:12,920
Speaker 2: to the income coming in.

2101
02:15:14,680 --> 02:15:15,920
Speaker 1: So what is supporting you.

2102
02:15:16,960 --> 02:15:22,000
Speaker 2: Well, I'm saying it's a combination of my selling prints,

2103
02:15:22,480 --> 02:15:28,600
Speaker 2: my having photos used for something like this Crosby Stills

2104
02:15:28,640 --> 02:15:34,480
Speaker 2: and Nash documentary. I also, for example, did a I

2105
02:15:34,640 --> 02:15:37,720
Speaker 2: was at Neil Young asked me would I redo the

2106
02:15:37,920 --> 02:15:44,680
Speaker 2: layout of his third volume of his archives, which is

2107
02:15:44,720 --> 02:15:47,000
Speaker 2: not something I normally is like sort of being an

2108
02:15:47,080 --> 02:15:50,880
Speaker 2: art director and editor, which I can do well by now,

2109
02:15:51,040 --> 02:15:54,640
Speaker 2: and so that's something I was paid for on an

2110
02:15:54,680 --> 02:15:58,360
Speaker 2: hourly basis. I'll be paid as a consultant to the

2111
02:15:58,960 --> 02:16:04,240
Speaker 2: CSN film and hopefully there'll be other projects I'm going

2112
02:16:04,320 --> 02:16:07,080
Speaker 2: to be working on. I'm hoping to work on a

2113
02:16:07,200 --> 02:16:10,600
Speaker 2: film by Cameron Crowe coming up. I'm helping him with

2114
02:16:10,680 --> 02:16:14,520
Speaker 2: the accuracy of the chronology of his memoir of Joni Mitchell,

2115
02:16:15,080 --> 02:16:17,800
Speaker 2: and I'm hoping that they'll be also a film having

2116
02:16:17,880 --> 02:16:19,800
Speaker 2: to do with her that I might be involved in.

2117
02:16:20,600 --> 02:16:23,840
Speaker 1: At this late date. How much contact do you have

2118
02:16:24,040 --> 02:16:28,840
Speaker 1: with these people like Jonie, Neil, Graham, Nash, etc.

2119
02:16:29,800 --> 02:16:33,560
Speaker 2: It varies. I speak to Graham often. We're still really

2120
02:16:33,600 --> 02:16:39,080
Speaker 2: good friends. I worked on Jony's archival. She has four

2121
02:16:39,240 --> 02:16:44,039
Speaker 2: volumes of archival projects that are all previously unreleased material

2122
02:16:44,320 --> 02:16:47,520
Speaker 2: going back to before she was signed, and I have

2123
02:16:47,800 --> 02:16:51,720
Speaker 2: a lot of photos in those, and I should say

2124
02:16:51,720 --> 02:16:55,760
Speaker 2: at some point that Joni was giving away her earthly possessions.

2125
02:16:56,640 --> 02:17:02,440
Speaker 2: In nineteen seventy one, when I was nineteen, and I

2126
02:17:02,560 --> 02:17:04,480
Speaker 2: came to her house and it was sort of in disarray,

2127
02:17:04,600 --> 02:17:07,280
Speaker 2: and I said, what's going on. She said, well, I've

2128
02:17:07,320 --> 02:17:10,640
Speaker 2: decided I've gotten too comfortable here and I'm going to

2129
02:17:10,680 --> 02:17:13,520
Speaker 2: give away my earthly possessions and move. I'm going to

2130
02:17:13,800 --> 02:17:16,800
Speaker 2: I bought some land in Canada and I'm going to

2131
02:17:16,879 --> 02:17:19,720
Speaker 2: buy a build a small house there, and I'm leaving

2132
02:17:19,800 --> 02:17:25,400
Speaker 2: this town. And she said, you can have anything you want.

2133
02:17:26,320 --> 02:17:28,160
Speaker 2: The Tiffany lamp, so and so I was taking the

2134
02:17:28,240 --> 02:17:32,920
Speaker 2: Tiffany lamp and the carousel pig, life sized carousel pig

2135
02:17:33,000 --> 02:17:35,680
Speaker 2: of wood that she had behind her couch, like, I'm

2136
02:17:35,720 --> 02:17:38,640
Speaker 2: taking that with me, but anything else, it's up. You

2137
02:17:38,720 --> 02:17:41,680
Speaker 2: can take what. Let's look around. And I don't know

2138
02:17:41,840 --> 02:17:45,760
Speaker 2: how I thought of this at nineteen, but I said, well,

2139
02:17:45,800 --> 02:17:49,040
Speaker 2: has anyone asked you for the tapes and acetates? And

2140
02:17:49,120 --> 02:17:51,760
Speaker 2: she said, no, you can have them all. So she

2141
02:17:51,920 --> 02:17:54,400
Speaker 2: gave me all of the tapes and acetates that she

2142
02:17:54,480 --> 02:17:57,880
Speaker 2: had taken home from the studio and live up to

2143
02:17:58,000 --> 02:18:02,600
Speaker 2: that point. And that started me a whole collection of

2144
02:18:02,720 --> 02:18:05,120
Speaker 2: those kinds of tapes because people didn't care about them.

2145
02:18:05,600 --> 02:18:08,160
Speaker 2: These are the tape copies that they take home to

2146
02:18:08,360 --> 02:18:10,920
Speaker 2: like here, how did I sound that night? Do we

2147
02:18:11,000 --> 02:18:14,680
Speaker 2: want to use take three or take eleven? Those kinds

2148
02:18:14,720 --> 02:18:20,119
Speaker 2: of tapes, rough mixtapes. So she gave me all of those,

2149
02:18:20,200 --> 02:18:23,400
Speaker 2: which included the tapes that Graham Nash had left behind

2150
02:18:23,480 --> 02:18:27,320
Speaker 2: when they had lived together. And so the rough mixes

2151
02:18:27,360 --> 02:18:31,199
Speaker 2: of the first CSN album and Deja Vu, for example,

2152
02:18:31,240 --> 02:18:34,040
Speaker 2: are there. And oh, her engineer was working on what

2153
02:18:34,320 --> 02:18:37,560
Speaker 2: the Flying Burrito Brothers first album at the same time,

2154
02:18:37,640 --> 02:18:41,280
Speaker 2: and here's rough mixes of that. So that was like

2155
02:18:41,400 --> 02:18:46,440
Speaker 2: another exciting kind of thing for me to be doing.

2156
02:18:46,520 --> 02:18:49,000
Speaker 2: And we've gotten to use those tapes over time. In

2157
02:18:49,760 --> 02:18:55,840
Speaker 2: so I got to produce, well or co produce the

2158
02:18:55,959 --> 02:19:00,360
Speaker 2: box set for David Crosby Stephen Still's in Graham Nash,

2159
02:19:01,280 --> 02:19:04,840
Speaker 2: which is like lifetime sets to sort of so you

2160
02:19:04,879 --> 02:19:06,680
Speaker 2: don't know who these people are here, let me show

2161
02:19:06,680 --> 02:19:10,120
Speaker 2: you who they are. So that's a big thing to

2162
02:19:10,200 --> 02:19:12,680
Speaker 2: be able to do. And I, you know, it's a big.

2163
02:19:14,000 --> 02:19:16,280
Speaker 2: It's a big responsibility to try to get it right

2164
02:19:16,520 --> 02:19:20,600
Speaker 2: and to decide which versions of things you're doing. You know, Bob,

2165
02:19:20,640 --> 02:19:26,600
Speaker 2: there's this whole thing of They say all comparisons are odious,

2166
02:19:27,680 --> 02:19:30,400
Speaker 2: and I sort of subscribe to that. There's right, it's

2167
02:19:30,520 --> 02:19:32,360
Speaker 2: not a good thing to be comparing this to that,

2168
02:19:32,560 --> 02:19:34,760
Speaker 2: and then what's your best album and what's the best

2169
02:19:35,080 --> 02:19:37,080
Speaker 2: which is a better song and all of that. But

2170
02:19:37,280 --> 02:19:40,040
Speaker 2: if you're doing my job, let's say, in the editing

2171
02:19:40,120 --> 02:19:42,720
Speaker 2: I was doing for Neil Young, I do have to

2172
02:19:42,800 --> 02:19:45,880
Speaker 2: make those decisions, right. I have to listen to like

2173
02:19:46,040 --> 02:19:49,000
Speaker 2: twenty or fifty versions of something and say, okay, Neil,

2174
02:19:49,040 --> 02:19:53,600
Speaker 2: you're only hearing these three or four. So I found

2175
02:19:54,040 --> 02:19:59,440
Speaker 2: that this is a great It's good to have that

2176
02:19:59,560 --> 02:20:02,280
Speaker 2: discern and to be able to figure out those things,

2177
02:20:02,400 --> 02:20:06,840
Speaker 2: especially because most people if you said, like, here's ten

2178
02:20:07,000 --> 02:20:09,200
Speaker 2: versions of the same song done by Neil Young on

2179
02:20:09,280 --> 02:20:11,160
Speaker 2: the same tour, which one do you think is the best?

2180
02:20:11,959 --> 02:20:14,959
Speaker 2: Even a really Neil Young fan who would think, oh,

2181
02:20:15,320 --> 02:20:18,520
Speaker 2: this is my dream job. I know all about Neil Young.

2182
02:20:18,640 --> 02:20:21,760
Speaker 2: I can tell you what the best Sugar Mountain is. No. Actually,

2183
02:20:21,840 --> 02:20:23,600
Speaker 2: your eyes are going to glaze over and you won't

2184
02:20:23,680 --> 02:20:26,520
Speaker 2: remember whether it was three or five or whatever it is.

2185
02:20:26,920 --> 02:20:29,160
Speaker 2: So all of that has been, you know, kind of

2186
02:20:29,240 --> 02:20:32,840
Speaker 2: a thrill for me to be able to do as

2187
02:20:32,879 --> 02:20:34,040
Speaker 2: well as the photography.

2188
02:20:35,280 --> 02:20:40,720
Speaker 1: Okay, from a very young age. To use the Hamilton quote,

2189
02:20:40,760 --> 02:20:44,520
Speaker 1: you were in the room where it happened. Anybody who

2190
02:20:44,720 --> 02:20:50,120
Speaker 1: knows who's been in those rooms knows that they're rules. Yes,

2191
02:20:50,440 --> 02:20:53,600
Speaker 1: it's kind of like private jet rules. You can get

2192
02:20:53,680 --> 02:20:56,720
Speaker 1: on the jet, but there are certain seats. You better

2193
02:20:56,840 --> 02:20:59,200
Speaker 1: not suiting those seats.

2194
02:21:00,040 --> 02:21:03,920
Speaker 2: It's so well said. I've watched that role be violated.

2195
02:21:06,640 --> 02:21:09,480
Speaker 1: Believe me, that's an ugly scene. But in any event,

2196
02:21:10,240 --> 02:21:14,560
Speaker 1: you're in the room where it happens, I have you know.

2197
02:21:14,720 --> 02:21:18,800
Speaker 1: There are a couple of basic rules when you're interacting

2198
02:21:18,920 --> 02:21:21,920
Speaker 1: with people like this. A you don't want to come

2199
02:21:21,959 --> 02:21:25,560
Speaker 1: across as a fan, and usually you don't want to

2200
02:21:25,640 --> 02:21:28,360
Speaker 1: talk about what they're famous for. You want to treat

2201
02:21:28,400 --> 02:21:31,240
Speaker 1: them as regular people. Because we both know their exceptions.

2202
02:21:31,240 --> 02:21:33,119
Speaker 1: I can tell you some hilarious of steps, and people

2203
02:21:33,160 --> 02:21:35,680
Speaker 1: love to talk about themselves. And of course, of course,

2204
02:21:36,080 --> 02:21:39,600
Speaker 1: then there are people they're in the room that it happens,

2205
02:21:40,040 --> 02:21:43,279
Speaker 1: they don't understand the rules. They're not a major player,

2206
02:21:43,760 --> 02:21:45,880
Speaker 1: they start to eat up a lot of air and

2207
02:21:46,040 --> 02:21:48,520
Speaker 1: everybody agrees they can never come right.

2208
02:21:49,680 --> 02:21:52,600
Speaker 2: Okay, somebody please say score that person out right now.

2209
02:21:52,800 --> 02:21:57,360
Speaker 2: I mean, I will say that many You can imagine

2210
02:21:57,400 --> 02:22:02,160
Speaker 2: there's a very very varying sensitivity of different artists, recording artists.

2211
02:22:02,200 --> 02:22:07,120
Speaker 2: Let's say, to who's in the studio, who's in the

2212
02:22:07,200 --> 02:22:10,160
Speaker 2: control room when they're making a record, for example, would

2213
02:22:10,160 --> 02:22:12,959
Speaker 2: be a really good one. Some people are like, let's

2214
02:22:13,000 --> 02:22:16,160
Speaker 2: have a party, bring bring your you're sure my girlfriend's

2215
02:22:16,200 --> 02:22:21,080
Speaker 2: coming in whatever. Fine. Other people are like so sensitive,

2216
02:22:21,840 --> 02:22:25,120
Speaker 2: people like Neil or Bob Dylan are so sensitive to

2217
02:22:25,240 --> 02:22:28,920
Speaker 2: who is in the room that there really needs to be.

2218
02:22:31,440 --> 02:22:34,000
Speaker 2: You only want to have the bare minimum of people.

2219
02:22:34,080 --> 02:22:38,240
Speaker 2: And if you're not there, like if you're there, you're

2220
02:22:38,320 --> 02:22:40,840
Speaker 2: not there for a reason, you really shouldn't be there

2221
02:22:41,440 --> 02:22:43,880
Speaker 2: kind of thing. Because they they're they're going to be

2222
02:22:44,160 --> 02:22:48,080
Speaker 2: very sensitive to every single person who is that they're

2223
02:22:48,120 --> 02:22:51,400
Speaker 2: why are they here right? Because they're they're working, they're

2224
02:22:51,440 --> 02:22:53,720
Speaker 2: trying to they're not hanging out. They're there to do

2225
02:22:53,840 --> 02:22:54,320
Speaker 2: their job.

2226
02:22:55,040 --> 02:22:57,039
Speaker 1: So you know, the the.

2227
02:22:58,760 --> 02:23:04,680
Speaker 2: Uh, the whole issue of not being not drawing attention

2228
02:23:04,760 --> 02:23:08,480
Speaker 2: to yourself. By the way, as a photographer. Also both

2229
02:23:08,520 --> 02:23:12,640
Speaker 2: as a crew member and as a photographer, you want

2230
02:23:12,720 --> 02:23:16,560
Speaker 2: to disappear, right, you really do you? You want to

2231
02:23:16,720 --> 02:23:19,080
Speaker 2: be more like a ninja. What how did he get

2232
02:23:19,120 --> 02:23:19,600
Speaker 2: that picture?

2233
02:23:19,760 --> 02:23:19,960
Speaker 1: Where?

2234
02:23:20,320 --> 02:23:20,880
Speaker 2: Where was he?

2235
02:23:21,800 --> 02:23:21,959
Speaker 1: Right?

2236
02:23:22,280 --> 02:23:24,720
Speaker 2: Don't I don't remember him doing that? That that sort

2237
02:23:24,720 --> 02:23:26,840
Speaker 2: of thing. You don't want to be like, hey, it's

2238
02:23:26,879 --> 02:23:29,920
Speaker 2: all about me and oh yeah, hey, hey, good to

2239
02:23:30,000 --> 02:23:31,960
Speaker 2: see you, you know, glad ending no, no, no, no,

2240
02:23:32,720 --> 02:23:36,080
Speaker 2: you know so And if you think about it, taking

2241
02:23:36,160 --> 02:23:39,840
Speaker 2: someone's photograph, even whoever it is a father to their daughter,

2242
02:23:41,040 --> 02:23:44,320
Speaker 2: you know, a friend to a friend, there's a dance,

2243
02:23:44,400 --> 02:23:48,440
Speaker 2: there's a social dance about photography about okay, are you posing?

2244
02:23:49,040 --> 02:23:49,880
Speaker 1: Are you not? Are you?

2245
02:23:50,080 --> 02:23:52,080
Speaker 2: You know, you don't know I'm taking the picture. So

2246
02:23:52,160 --> 02:23:57,560
Speaker 2: I'm getting this, you know, amazing, like you know, very

2247
02:23:59,640 --> 02:24:01,800
Speaker 2: person moment of who you are, but you don't even

2248
02:24:01,879 --> 02:24:06,560
Speaker 2: know that I'm doing it. There's you have to be

2249
02:24:06,879 --> 02:24:12,600
Speaker 2: very aware of that. And as a crew member, you know,

2250
02:24:12,720 --> 02:24:17,920
Speaker 2: let's say you can't be drawing attention to yourself. You

2251
02:24:18,040 --> 02:24:22,240
Speaker 2: have to really disappear. So it's an interesting combination of

2252
02:24:22,360 --> 02:24:23,040
Speaker 2: lessons to learn.

2253
02:24:23,879 --> 02:24:28,640
Speaker 1: Okay, you're an intelligent guy, you're a nice guy and

2254
02:24:28,680 --> 02:24:33,040
Speaker 1: you're articulate. I say that totally straightforward. Don't deny it. Whatever,

2255
02:24:34,040 --> 02:24:40,160
Speaker 1: you're nineteen, you're sitting in the room with Joni Mitchell,

2256
02:24:40,480 --> 02:24:45,199
Speaker 1: James Taylor, whatever do you say to yourself, I'd better

2257
02:24:45,400 --> 02:24:50,160
Speaker 1: shut up or you gauging how much you're talking like

2258
02:24:50,280 --> 02:24:53,560
Speaker 1: I'm privileged to be here, And are you judging how

2259
02:24:53,640 --> 02:24:57,039
Speaker 1: much comfort you achieve over time as to how much

2260
02:24:57,160 --> 02:24:58,000
Speaker 1: to participate?

2261
02:24:59,600 --> 02:25:02,480
Speaker 2: Yes, I think that you're just you just develop a

2262
02:25:02,560 --> 02:25:07,280
Speaker 2: sensitivity to vibe too in the room and and make sure,

2263
02:25:08,400 --> 02:25:11,440
Speaker 2: uh you know that whatever you're contributing is is to

2264
02:25:11,560 --> 02:25:15,600
Speaker 2: the better right uh, and that you're.

2265
02:25:17,440 --> 02:25:17,600
Speaker 1: Uh.

2266
02:25:18,920 --> 02:25:22,279
Speaker 2: I was very surprised that these people who were older

2267
02:25:22,360 --> 02:25:27,880
Speaker 2: than me were treating me so nicely and and and

2268
02:25:28,120 --> 02:25:30,680
Speaker 2: we're not like saying, hey, kid, get out of here

2269
02:25:32,040 --> 02:25:32,520
Speaker 2: kind of thing.

2270
02:25:32,840 --> 02:25:33,000
Speaker 1: Uh.

2271
02:25:33,720 --> 02:25:35,640
Speaker 2: There was something. I think it partly had to do

2272
02:25:35,800 --> 02:25:38,480
Speaker 2: with the fact that I could play guitar. That I

2273
02:25:38,640 --> 02:25:43,680
Speaker 2: was that they were related to that and were like, oh,

2274
02:25:43,720 --> 02:25:48,040
Speaker 2: you understand me better. You're you you you your guitar

2275
02:25:48,160 --> 02:25:50,320
Speaker 2: is too, so you sort of understand like what this

2276
02:25:50,480 --> 02:25:53,800
Speaker 2: is about, but it is.

2277
02:25:55,760 --> 02:25:56,080
Speaker 1: I I.

2278
02:25:58,520 --> 02:26:01,200
Speaker 2: Would I would hope that if someone were to look

2279
02:26:01,240 --> 02:26:03,440
Speaker 2: at the best of my photos, and I'm hoping at

2280
02:26:03,480 --> 02:26:05,680
Speaker 2: some point to do a book of my best photos

2281
02:26:05,720 --> 02:26:09,800
Speaker 2: of musicians as a big goal of mine. I envision

2282
02:26:09,959 --> 02:26:12,720
Speaker 2: this like me taking you into these rooms you'll never

2283
02:26:12,879 --> 02:26:16,080
Speaker 2: be in yourself. I want to give you what it

2284
02:26:16,280 --> 02:26:19,600
Speaker 2: felt like to be in that room. I want to

2285
02:26:19,800 --> 02:26:22,480
Speaker 2: provide you that you don't have to be there yourself.

2286
02:26:23,200 --> 02:26:28,280
Speaker 2: If you probably won't be ever in a bistro at

2287
02:26:28,360 --> 02:26:32,720
Speaker 2: eleven at night with Joni Mitchell in Italy, but if

2288
02:26:32,800 --> 02:26:35,360
Speaker 2: you were, this is what it would look like across

2289
02:26:35,480 --> 02:26:38,440
Speaker 2: the table. This is how it would feel, not just look.

2290
02:26:39,160 --> 02:26:42,680
Speaker 2: That's a thing, right, you're trying to One of the

2291
02:26:42,760 --> 02:26:46,280
Speaker 2: things in photography is you could make it your goal

2292
02:26:46,440 --> 02:26:49,279
Speaker 2: to make someone as pretty or handsome as possible.

2293
02:26:50,120 --> 02:26:50,280
Speaker 1: Right.

2294
02:26:50,440 --> 02:26:56,720
Speaker 2: Many photographers do that. Many sitters of photos want that, right.

2295
02:26:58,040 --> 02:27:02,280
Speaker 2: I'm looking to get underneath the skin and reveal something

2296
02:27:02,840 --> 02:27:08,240
Speaker 2: of the inner, the interior world of that person. Some

2297
02:27:08,400 --> 02:27:11,920
Speaker 2: religions feel that what we see on the outside is

2298
02:27:11,920 --> 02:27:17,760
Speaker 2: an illusion, right, if that everything the beautiful woman, No,

2299
02:27:17,920 --> 02:27:21,960
Speaker 2: that's just an illusions. What's really going on? And I

2300
02:27:22,120 --> 02:27:26,280
Speaker 2: think that if you my goal has always been to

2301
02:27:26,520 --> 02:27:29,800
Speaker 2: like give you the viewer of the photograph some idea

2302
02:27:29,840 --> 02:27:31,680
Speaker 2: of what it's like to be in that room with

2303
02:27:31,840 --> 02:27:35,080
Speaker 2: that person. I'm not trying to make them better or

2304
02:27:35,400 --> 02:27:37,760
Speaker 2: make them laugh or whatever it is. I'm trying to

2305
02:27:37,920 --> 02:27:40,080
Speaker 2: give you an insight into them as a person.

2306
02:27:41,200 --> 02:27:45,000
Speaker 1: Well, Joel, thank you for giving us insight into your world.

2307
02:27:45,560 --> 02:27:48,640
Speaker 1: First and foremost. So many people you talk about what

2308
02:27:48,840 --> 02:27:52,800
Speaker 1: happened in the past, you have to remind them the

2309
02:27:52,920 --> 02:27:55,560
Speaker 1: fact that you knew exactly when these albums came out

2310
02:27:55,560 --> 02:27:58,080
Speaker 1: and said, I say okay, and I have a million

2311
02:27:58,160 --> 02:28:01,640
Speaker 1: more questions. And there's so many things. Reference the week

2312
02:28:01,760 --> 02:28:04,320
Speaker 1: of Crosby Stills in Nash and Young. I couldn't get

2313
02:28:04,360 --> 02:28:08,680
Speaker 1: tickets for that at the filmore recent June. There are

2314
02:28:08,720 --> 02:28:11,280
Speaker 1: other shows you mentioned. You know, I've been there. It's

2315
02:28:11,360 --> 02:28:16,040
Speaker 1: really I saw the CSNY seventy four to where I

2316
02:28:16,200 --> 02:28:18,760
Speaker 1: saw a Nassau Coli seat, even though I grew up

2317
02:28:18,760 --> 02:28:19,400
Speaker 1: in Connecticut.

2318
02:28:19,760 --> 02:28:24,840
Speaker 2: Once I got tickets, do you remember, I'm really curious, Oh,

2319
02:28:24,879 --> 02:28:26,640
Speaker 2: I remember exactly where I was.

2320
02:28:26,800 --> 02:28:28,680
Speaker 1: I could tell you where I went to the bathroom

2321
02:28:28,720 --> 02:28:31,680
Speaker 1: where I was seating. Listen. I'm one of the people

2322
02:28:32,959 --> 02:28:36,240
Speaker 1: who doesn't go with conventional wisdom. Four Way Street. I

2323
02:28:36,320 --> 02:28:38,440
Speaker 1: don't think the harmonies are excellent.

2324
02:28:39,360 --> 02:28:41,520
Speaker 2: There's several things, yes, I agree, okay.

2325
02:28:41,680 --> 02:28:45,280
Speaker 1: And in the interim from June to seventy to when

2326
02:28:46,520 --> 02:28:48,680
Speaker 1: Neil Young joined the band again and they went on

2327
02:28:48,800 --> 02:28:51,320
Speaker 1: the road in seventy four, there were a number of

2328
02:28:51,440 --> 02:28:56,879
Speaker 1: acts who could replicate the harmonies live, not only acoustic

2329
02:28:57,200 --> 02:29:00,720
Speaker 1: or you know country rock musicians who could do right well,

2330
02:29:01,440 --> 02:29:06,680
Speaker 1: bands like Yes, etc. So when I went to the show,

2331
02:29:07,520 --> 02:29:10,400
Speaker 1: I didn't expect the harmonies to be as good as

2332
02:29:10,520 --> 02:29:14,680
Speaker 1: they were. Ah, I was just saying, I'm gonna have

2333
02:29:14,920 --> 02:29:20,320
Speaker 1: the experience. And you know, certainly as the years went by,

2334
02:29:21,840 --> 02:29:25,120
Speaker 1: it was more of a privilege to have Neil on

2335
02:29:25,280 --> 02:29:27,480
Speaker 1: the road with the other three or to make music

2336
02:29:27,560 --> 02:29:30,640
Speaker 1: with the other three, whereas at this point I felt

2337
02:29:30,680 --> 02:29:35,120
Speaker 1: it was more equalized. Listen, as I say, I remember Vivid,

2338
02:29:35,200 --> 02:29:36,800
Speaker 1: I thought it was a great show, not because I'm

2339
02:29:36,840 --> 02:29:39,000
Speaker 1: talking to you, because I can tell you about other

2340
02:29:39,240 --> 02:29:42,280
Speaker 1: Crosby stills in that shows that weren't as good as that.

2341
02:29:42,480 --> 02:29:44,080
Speaker 1: Let's leave it right at It was.

2342
02:29:44,120 --> 02:29:47,320
Speaker 2: An amazing mix of songs. Also, like Neil's writing, in

2343
02:29:47,440 --> 02:29:50,360
Speaker 2: particular the things that he was the new songs he

2344
02:29:50,600 --> 02:29:53,640
Speaker 2: was writing that he pulled out in the acoustic set,

2345
02:29:53,720 --> 02:29:56,080
Speaker 2: plus things like pushed it over the end and on

2346
02:29:56,200 --> 02:29:58,920
Speaker 2: the beach on the are you kidding on the beach?

2347
02:29:59,040 --> 02:30:02,400
Speaker 2: Live with that band? Crazy? Like so good, so great.

2348
02:30:02,680 --> 02:30:05,440
Speaker 1: The other funny thing is you went to college in

2349
02:30:05,520 --> 02:30:07,840
Speaker 1: the fall of seventy yeah, and your parents went on

2350
02:30:07,959 --> 02:30:12,680
Speaker 1: around the world trip. I went to college in September

2351
02:30:12,720 --> 02:30:16,080
Speaker 1: of seventy. My parents immediately went to Europe and there

2352
02:30:16,200 --> 02:30:18,720
Speaker 1: was not a phone in the room, so there was

2353
02:30:18,800 --> 02:30:21,560
Speaker 1: that simbling. It's like, you know, first of all, it's

2354
02:30:21,600 --> 02:30:23,840
Speaker 1: so different from today where people connect with their parents.

2355
02:30:24,080 --> 02:30:27,000
Speaker 2: That part is so mild to me, Like like I

2356
02:30:27,080 --> 02:30:29,240
Speaker 2: have friends who is like they're always on the phone

2357
02:30:29,280 --> 02:30:31,920
Speaker 2: with their daughter at college. I'm like, at some point

2358
02:30:31,920 --> 02:30:35,000
Speaker 2: I have to go, excuse me. But like when I

2359
02:30:35,160 --> 02:30:38,120
Speaker 2: was growing up, like when you went to college, part

2360
02:30:38,160 --> 02:30:40,440
Speaker 2: of the thing was like you didn't call it when

2361
02:30:40,480 --> 02:30:42,880
Speaker 2: there was a problem. You didn't call your parents every

2362
02:30:42,920 --> 02:30:45,160
Speaker 2: time there was a problem. Like you seem to be

2363
02:30:45,280 --> 02:30:47,720
Speaker 2: calling your daughter, like she's calling you like two or

2364
02:30:47,760 --> 02:30:50,640
Speaker 2: three times a day, Like like, what's up with that?

2365
02:30:50,720 --> 02:30:52,080
Speaker 2: Are you sure that's a good thing?

2366
02:30:54,000 --> 02:30:56,040
Speaker 1: Well, it's like, you know, I know, people's kids call

2367
02:30:56,120 --> 02:30:58,800
Speaker 1: them how to do the laundry. I never did the

2368
02:30:58,920 --> 02:31:01,440
Speaker 1: laundry at home, but I'm went to college. I didn't

2369
02:31:01,480 --> 02:31:03,400
Speaker 1: think twice that I had to learn how to do

2370
02:31:03,560 --> 02:31:06,520
Speaker 1: the launch. You know, you went down to the I

2371
02:31:06,640 --> 02:31:07,880
Speaker 1: learned you had to do it in the middle of

2372
02:31:07,920 --> 02:31:09,600
Speaker 1: the night because otherwise couldn't get a massie right.

2373
02:31:09,959 --> 02:31:11,080
Speaker 3: But you learn how to.

2374
02:31:11,440 --> 02:31:13,959
Speaker 2: Also, you learned how to like clean your own dishes.

2375
02:31:14,040 --> 02:31:17,160
Speaker 2: You know the great sign in the dormitory, you know,

2376
02:31:17,400 --> 02:31:19,320
Speaker 2: like it would say there'd be a sign that says,

2377
02:31:19,400 --> 02:31:21,520
Speaker 2: like your mother does clean your dishes.

2378
02:31:21,600 --> 02:31:28,160
Speaker 1: Your mother doesn't, Yeah, exactly. The other thing is I

2379
02:31:28,280 --> 02:31:30,600
Speaker 1: went to I bought my records at EJ Corp.

2380
02:31:30,760 --> 02:31:31,840
Speaker 2: Sure cheap.

2381
02:31:31,959 --> 02:31:35,840
Speaker 1: I bought so many records. You remember those people just

2382
02:31:35,879 --> 02:31:40,520
Speaker 1: don't know people the vinyl fetishization. I have all my vinyl.

2383
02:31:40,840 --> 02:31:44,199
Speaker 1: If it was originally recorded the analog, I understand completely.

2384
02:31:44,840 --> 02:31:48,680
Speaker 1: But people have no idea how defective the vinyl was.

2385
02:31:48,840 --> 02:31:51,520
Speaker 1: They don't to get a record with nose skips, no

2386
02:31:52,400 --> 02:31:57,400
Speaker 1: surface noise, flat records impossible. I returned so many records

2387
02:31:57,920 --> 02:32:01,680
Speaker 1: at EJ corbat Well, don't buy any more records here.

2388
02:32:01,800 --> 02:32:04,560
Speaker 2: That's really funny. I can remember having records, what was it?

2389
02:32:04,680 --> 02:32:08,000
Speaker 2: Days of future pasted right by the moody blues, Like

2390
02:32:08,080 --> 02:32:10,280
Speaker 2: I couldn't get a decent pressing, Like I didn't know

2391
02:32:10,320 --> 02:32:13,520
Speaker 2: about pressings, and like why why do I put this on?

2392
02:32:13,920 --> 02:32:17,199
Speaker 2: And like my knee, I just hear scratches like right away,

2393
02:32:17,280 --> 02:32:19,600
Speaker 2: and then the voices sound like far away. That's not

2394
02:32:19,760 --> 02:32:24,080
Speaker 2: what it sounded like on the radio. It's so true.

2395
02:32:24,320 --> 02:32:26,600
Speaker 1: Well the thing I'm reaching. So I go to college

2396
02:32:26,640 --> 02:32:29,520
Speaker 1: in Vermont. This is the dark ages before cable TV,

2397
02:32:30,160 --> 02:32:33,600
Speaker 1: cell phones, whatever. And if you put an EJ corve vet,

2398
02:32:34,920 --> 02:32:39,000
Speaker 1: you realize things went on sales and you bought so

2399
02:32:39,120 --> 02:32:42,200
Speaker 1: many records you were not going to pay Certainly they

2400
02:32:42,280 --> 02:32:45,120
Speaker 1: were usually two dollars off this price. So I'm gonna

2401
02:32:45,680 --> 02:32:48,880
Speaker 1: I mean, living in Vermont and the store wants to

2402
02:32:49,080 --> 02:32:52,200
Speaker 1: charge you a dollar more than EJ coord Sure, but

2403
02:32:52,400 --> 02:32:54,800
Speaker 1: that damn after the gold Rutch album came out the

2404
02:32:54,840 --> 02:32:57,560
Speaker 1: first week college, right, Oh I paid for that? Sure?

2405
02:32:58,000 --> 02:33:01,760
Speaker 2: I was, well, yeah, you can imagine how I felt

2406
02:33:01,840 --> 02:33:03,920
Speaker 2: like as a kid. Just imagine you're like if it

2407
02:33:04,040 --> 02:33:07,080
Speaker 2: was your first week as a freshman in college and

2408
02:33:07,200 --> 02:33:09,400
Speaker 2: you see that, but you've taken the pictures and you

2409
02:33:09,560 --> 02:33:13,480
Speaker 2: walk into the record store and it's all fifty copies

2410
02:33:13,520 --> 02:33:16,680
Speaker 2: of it are in shrink wrap on the floor, in piles.

2411
02:33:16,680 --> 02:33:18,400
Speaker 1: And it was it was.

2412
02:33:18,680 --> 02:33:20,880
Speaker 2: That was a big moment in my life.

2413
02:33:21,160 --> 02:33:26,960
Speaker 1: I cannot even imagine it. That's beyond the story. Well,

2414
02:33:27,000 --> 02:33:31,320
Speaker 1: one thing, you know, at the second fret, there's another thing,

2415
02:33:31,520 --> 02:33:36,240
Speaker 1: going to David Geffen's apartment. Okay, but walking into the

2416
02:33:36,440 --> 02:33:41,320
Speaker 1: record store, it's not any record. That was the breakthrough.

2417
02:33:42,200 --> 02:33:45,560
Speaker 1: You know, everybody, if you were engh you owned everything.

2418
02:33:45,680 --> 02:33:48,480
Speaker 1: Everybody knows this is nowhere, but the average person still

2419
02:33:48,600 --> 02:33:51,440
Speaker 1: wasn't buying and you went that record. It was the

2420
02:33:51,600 --> 02:33:52,840
Speaker 1: soundtrack of the dorm.

2421
02:33:53,320 --> 02:33:55,360
Speaker 2: To go to the record store, I was going to say,

2422
02:33:55,800 --> 02:33:59,280
Speaker 2: it was, like I've said to people, you know, like

2423
02:33:59,440 --> 02:34:03,280
Speaker 2: that was the dorm record of that year. For sure,

2424
02:34:03,680 --> 02:34:07,520
Speaker 2: every kid wanted to play how to play? How does

2425
02:34:07,640 --> 02:34:08,480
Speaker 2: how do you play? Tell me?

2426
02:34:08,600 --> 02:34:08,760
Speaker 1: Why?

2427
02:34:09,240 --> 02:34:11,280
Speaker 2: How can I play? Southern Man? It was like the

2428
02:34:11,560 --> 02:34:12,480
Speaker 2: record to play.

2429
02:34:12,440 --> 02:34:14,480
Speaker 1: And believe me, I played along with my guitar. Not

2430
02:34:14,560 --> 02:34:17,160
Speaker 1: that I'm in the league of you, but right, but

2431
02:34:18,080 --> 02:34:21,119
Speaker 1: the fact that you, I mean, okay, you weren't there,

2432
02:34:21,680 --> 02:34:24,800
Speaker 1: You're in college, you're a lady back guy. How do

2433
02:34:24,879 --> 02:34:28,119
Speaker 1: you end up telling people and do they even believe

2434
02:34:28,280 --> 02:34:29,360
Speaker 1: you that you've shot them?

2435
02:34:30,000 --> 02:34:33,640
Speaker 2: It is funny you asked that. I can remember, well,

2436
02:34:33,680 --> 02:34:37,959
Speaker 2: I realized first of all later that so the picture

2437
02:34:38,000 --> 02:34:40,120
Speaker 2: of Neil that we were talking about with lying on

2438
02:34:40,240 --> 02:34:44,160
Speaker 2: the couch in this funky dressing room, that's the gatefold

2439
02:34:44,200 --> 02:34:46,360
Speaker 2: of the cover. And by the way, all the pictures

2440
02:34:46,400 --> 02:34:49,240
Speaker 2: on the cover of that album are very gritty and

2441
02:34:49,440 --> 02:34:52,800
Speaker 2: very urban. They're like very not like what the music

2442
02:34:52,959 --> 02:34:57,480
Speaker 2: is inside, right right, they really which like which at

2443
02:34:57,520 --> 02:35:00,800
Speaker 2: the time I didn't really quite understand why he chose

2444
02:35:00,879 --> 02:35:03,840
Speaker 2: those things. Now I have a better understanding of it.

2445
02:35:04,040 --> 02:35:07,440
Speaker 1: But uh, that that.

2446
02:35:10,200 --> 02:35:14,039
Speaker 2: That that became such a major album, And now I'm

2447
02:35:14,120 --> 02:35:17,160
Speaker 2: out of college. I was left. But all my friends

2448
02:35:17,200 --> 02:35:20,720
Speaker 2: are like playing that record. And I remember a friend

2449
02:35:20,760 --> 02:35:27,240
Speaker 2: of mine telling me about being in Paris that year

2450
02:35:27,959 --> 02:35:33,200
Speaker 2: and how the DJ in Paris was just was describing

2451
02:35:33,320 --> 02:35:36,800
Speaker 2: the album cover to his audience on the radio in Paris,

2452
02:35:37,400 --> 02:35:40,640
Speaker 2: and I was like, I just my head blew up.

2453
02:35:40,800 --> 02:35:45,040
Speaker 2: I was like, I you know, you're you know there

2454
02:35:45,080 --> 02:35:47,120
Speaker 2: you are walking down the street with these two guys

2455
02:35:47,160 --> 02:35:50,640
Speaker 2: who are older than you. You know who knows that? Like,

2456
02:35:51,080 --> 02:35:55,560
Speaker 2: so you know that it becomes a classic. It's you know,

2457
02:35:56,080 --> 02:35:58,280
Speaker 2: considered one of the top one hundred album covers.

2458
02:35:58,400 --> 02:36:02,800
Speaker 1: Like well they In addition, people have no idea you

2459
02:36:03,120 --> 02:36:05,040
Speaker 1: used you talked about the Beatles on it. It's all

2460
02:36:05,040 --> 02:36:09,920
Speaker 1: of them. People have no idea to have access when

2461
02:36:09,959 --> 02:36:13,760
Speaker 1: you're a high school student. One thing, if you live

2462
02:36:13,800 --> 02:36:17,760
Speaker 1: in La the people there possibly, but you're living in

2463
02:36:17,879 --> 02:36:20,200
Speaker 1: the suburbs game access to these people.

2464
02:36:20,240 --> 02:36:24,880
Speaker 2: It would be impossible, unheard of. I just have to

2465
02:36:24,920 --> 02:36:29,320
Speaker 2: say that after csny's show at the at the Spectrum

2466
02:36:29,360 --> 02:36:32,720
Speaker 2: in Philadelphia, where I took the picture that's Neil's Greatest

2467
02:36:32,800 --> 02:36:35,000
Speaker 2: Hits cover for example, that really intense shot of him

2468
02:36:35,040 --> 02:36:39,760
Speaker 2: looking down after having gone through the box of photos

2469
02:36:39,800 --> 02:36:40,080
Speaker 2: with him.

2470
02:36:41,840 --> 02:36:41,960
Speaker 1: Uh.

2471
02:36:42,440 --> 02:36:45,320
Speaker 2: After the show, they're looking for a pool hall. They

2472
02:36:45,360 --> 02:36:47,720
Speaker 2: can't find a pool hall that to now, how could

2473
02:36:47,720 --> 02:36:50,160
Speaker 2: there not be a pool hall open? But for some reason,

2474
02:36:50,280 --> 02:36:52,280
Speaker 2: the guy the promoter saying, yeah, well, like we can't

2475
02:36:52,760 --> 02:36:56,240
Speaker 2: find one that Steven's got like a portable like a

2476
02:36:56,360 --> 02:36:58,240
Speaker 2: pool queue that you you know, in two pieces with

2477
02:36:58,320 --> 02:37:00,880
Speaker 2: a carrying right right right, No, I really I really

2478
02:37:01,000 --> 02:37:03,560
Speaker 2: like one. I play and I go, well, you know,

2479
02:37:03,680 --> 02:37:07,760
Speaker 2: my parents have a pool table at my house. I

2480
02:37:07,840 --> 02:37:11,320
Speaker 2: mean I'm sure he could come over, and they go really, yeah,

2481
02:37:11,360 --> 02:37:14,760
Speaker 2: well we'll be there, and I'm like really, And so

2482
02:37:14,920 --> 02:37:18,040
Speaker 2: I go home. I take the train home, you know,

2483
02:37:18,560 --> 02:37:21,879
Speaker 2: and then like a limo pulls up and it's Stephen

2484
02:37:22,040 --> 02:37:25,199
Speaker 2: and Graham and a film crew at my parents' house.

2485
02:37:25,440 --> 02:37:28,280
Speaker 2: It's like now it's midnight, twelve thirty. My parents are

2486
02:37:28,320 --> 02:37:32,320
Speaker 2: asleep upstairs. Okay, guys, all right, come in. We're gonna

2487
02:37:32,560 --> 02:37:35,480
Speaker 2: go to the pool tables in the basement. Okay, so

2488
02:37:35,680 --> 02:37:43,000
Speaker 2: shita there we thing they like when they start smoking

2489
02:37:43,040 --> 02:37:46,400
Speaker 2: a joint in the basement. Okay, maybe they're doing some

2490
02:37:46,560 --> 02:37:51,960
Speaker 2: other drug in the basement as well. At some point,

2491
02:37:52,040 --> 02:37:56,039
Speaker 2: the intercom phone rings. It's from my parents' bedroom. It's

2492
02:37:56,120 --> 02:37:58,720
Speaker 2: my dad. We pick it up, son, what's going on

2493
02:37:58,920 --> 02:38:02,600
Speaker 2: down there? What's all that noise? Oh god, Dad? I'm sorry.

2494
02:38:03,120 --> 02:38:05,039
Speaker 2: Uh you know, remember I went to that show tonight

2495
02:38:05,120 --> 02:38:09,120
Speaker 2: to photograph that band, and they they wanted to they

2496
02:38:09,280 --> 02:38:11,600
Speaker 2: needed a place to play pool. So two of them

2497
02:38:11,640 --> 02:38:14,800
Speaker 2: are are here with me tonight. I'm gonna just make

2498
02:38:14,840 --> 02:38:17,600
Speaker 2: sure they'll be really cool. I'm really sorry, but they'll

2499
02:38:17,640 --> 02:38:22,640
Speaker 2: be quiet, you know, we'll just keep it down. I

2500
02:38:22,760 --> 02:38:28,320
Speaker 2: hang up. There is full of hash smoke. Five seconds later,

2501
02:38:28,440 --> 02:38:35,400
Speaker 2: my dad appears in his bathroom hand out Stanley Bernstein, Hi,

2502
02:38:35,560 --> 02:38:43,879
Speaker 2: how are you doing? Come to my house? That's hysticle,

2503
02:38:44,240 --> 02:38:46,320
Speaker 2: that really really happened.

2504
02:38:46,400 --> 02:38:51,440
Speaker 3: So my point is that he's totally cool with them.

2505
02:38:51,680 --> 02:38:55,240
Speaker 2: He doesn't say what is that? Nothing, He's like, Hey,

2506
02:38:55,280 --> 02:38:57,120
Speaker 2: how you doing? Can I get you something to drink?

2507
02:38:58,200 --> 02:39:03,480
Speaker 3: Totally amazing, right, So later they come.

2508
02:39:03,440 --> 02:39:06,320
Speaker 2: Up to my bedroom with the film crew. I have

2509
02:39:06,480 --> 02:39:08,360
Speaker 2: my pictures that I've been taking so far, So I

2510
02:39:08,440 --> 02:39:11,440
Speaker 2: have Joni Mitchell and Neil Young and Laura Nira up

2511
02:39:11,520 --> 02:39:13,720
Speaker 2: on the wall like this behind them, and they shoot

2512
02:39:13,800 --> 02:39:20,360
Speaker 2: this on film, and that footage becomes Cameron's inspiration for

2513
02:39:20,520 --> 02:39:24,160
Speaker 2: the whole idea of the band comes to visit the

2514
02:39:24,280 --> 02:39:27,720
Speaker 2: kid in almost famous and the poster is up on

2515
02:39:27,800 --> 02:39:31,080
Speaker 2: the wall right, that posters thee after the it's taken

2516
02:39:31,480 --> 02:39:35,720
Speaker 2: let's say, inspired by the after the gold Rush. Inside right,

2517
02:39:35,800 --> 02:39:40,520
Speaker 2: it's it's the band Sweetwater or whatever it is, you know,

2518
02:39:40,920 --> 02:39:44,000
Speaker 2: posed right up in the kids thing and the guy

2519
02:39:44,160 --> 02:39:47,280
Speaker 2: is actually visiting him in his bedroom. That whole scene

2520
02:39:47,320 --> 02:39:51,760
Speaker 2: comes from my actual experience to telling Cameron about that

2521
02:39:51,840 --> 02:39:53,560
Speaker 2: whole story. That's how that happens.

2522
02:39:55,360 --> 02:40:00,600
Speaker 1: Normally with the story like that, the emphasis is on, yeah,

2523
02:40:00,760 --> 02:40:05,680
Speaker 1: I influenced the movie. Okay, in this case, fuck the movie.

2524
02:40:06,120 --> 02:40:09,280
Speaker 1: The story itself is so fucking great.

2525
02:40:09,520 --> 02:40:11,520
Speaker 2: It doesn't matter about the movie.

2526
02:40:13,840 --> 02:40:18,920
Speaker 3: Well, thank you, it was. You can you can dive

2527
02:40:19,000 --> 02:40:21,119
Speaker 3: out of a story like that for a lifetime.

2528
02:40:21,800 --> 02:40:23,640
Speaker 2: Well, I think I should be doing more of that.

2529
02:40:23,920 --> 02:40:25,960
Speaker 2: I'm feeling a little a little package.

2530
02:40:26,400 --> 02:40:28,840
Speaker 4: Okay, So in any of that, I'm gonna leave it

2531
02:40:28,920 --> 02:40:31,000
Speaker 4: at that because I can't. I'm sure there might be

2532
02:40:31,080 --> 02:40:33,360
Speaker 4: a story better than that. But that's a ten out

2533
02:40:33,400 --> 02:40:36,920
Speaker 4: of ten Joel. Okay, Well, thank you, Bob. I wanted

2534
02:40:37,000 --> 02:40:38,279
Speaker 4: to thank me anytime.

2535
02:40:38,360 --> 02:40:41,680
Speaker 2: It's great. It's really great talking right, and we really

2536
02:40:41,760 --> 02:40:43,000
Speaker 2: have so much a coin right it.

2537
02:40:43,080 --> 02:40:47,000
Speaker 1: Literally same era really, so thanks for taking time talk

2538
02:40:47,040 --> 02:40:50,160
Speaker 1: to my audience. Till next time. This is Bob left

2539
02:40:50,240 --> 02:40:50,520
Speaker 1: Sex