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Speaker 1: Hi everyone, It's Sophia and welcome back to Work in Progress.

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Speaker 1: On today's episode, we are going to talk to someone

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Speaker 1: who not only helps people overcome their greatest and most

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Speaker 1: stabilitating obstacles, he's lived through some of his own. I'm

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Speaker 1: joined today by Eric Simmer. Eric is a behavior coach

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Speaker 1: and the host of the One You Feed podcast, which

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Speaker 1: is one of my personal favorites and was also named

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Speaker 1: one of the best health podcasts of all time by

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Speaker 1: the Huffington Post. I was actually honored to be on

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Speaker 1: it not long ago. Eric's story is an incredible one.

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Speaker 1: He went from a heroin addiction, alcoholism, and homelessness to

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Speaker 1: turning his life around piece by piece, and since then

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Speaker 1: he's made it his life's work to help others affect

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Speaker 1: positive changes in their own lives. I am so excited

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Speaker 1: to learn more about how he got his start, how

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Speaker 1: he helps get through to people who need help, and

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Speaker 1: so much more so let's get started. Eric. It's so

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Speaker 1: nice to speak with you again, especially so quickly after

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Speaker 1: we got to chat on your show. How are you?

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Speaker 1: I am doing very good and I am also very

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Speaker 1: happy to be talking with you again. Where do I

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Speaker 1: find you today? Well? Today I am in Charlottesville, Virginia,

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Speaker 1: which is not normal home for me, but it's where

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Speaker 1: I am for the last couple of weeks. My partner's

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Speaker 1: sister is here and we're here helping with her niece.

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Speaker 1: Very cool. Yeah. Is it interesting to be in a

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Speaker 1: new place, you know, traveling in a moment like this

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Speaker 1: one that we all find ourselves in or does it

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Speaker 1: feel okay? It feels okay. It's it's definitely interesting being

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Speaker 1: back in the world. You know. We we went we

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Speaker 1: go back and forth every month from our home in Columbus,

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Speaker 1: Ohio to Atlanta, Georgia. We do that every month. My

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Speaker 1: partner's mom has Alzheimer's and we take care of her there.

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Speaker 1: So we were used to going back and forth during

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Speaker 1: the pandemic. But it was very you know, stopping at

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Speaker 1: a gas station, you know, mask on, gloves on, you know,

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Speaker 1: very very careful, you know, And it's a little bit different.

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Speaker 1: Things are a little bit more at least here in

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Speaker 1: Virginia are more opened up. Yeah. I find that, uh,

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Speaker 1: being sort of out in the world is amazing and

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Speaker 1: also feels a bit intimidating or scary. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: at first I had a couple of times in Columbus,

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Speaker 1: you know, over the last month, where I was out

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Speaker 1: and about and I was just like, wow, this feels

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Speaker 1: surreal to be around this many people. Is this okay?

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Speaker 1: It says, I'm not sure, you know, I think it's

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Speaker 1: that's an on going question yet to be too determined.

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Speaker 1: As a vaccinated person, I feel pretty safe, but I

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Speaker 1: still think what our responsibilities to each other are at

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Speaker 1: this point remain confusing to me. Me too, It is,

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Speaker 1: to your point, really making me think a lot about

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Speaker 1: responsibility and and community. You know, what an important thing

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Speaker 1: it is to to do to show up for your community.

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Speaker 1: And to me, at least, this idea that anyone might

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Speaker 1: refuse a vaccine or you know, be lied to. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, all of this misinformation is really so scary

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Speaker 1: and and and thus might be mistrustful and then risk

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Speaker 1: you know, themselves or their community. It's it's a tough

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Speaker 1: time and it's interesting because the this sort of battle,

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Speaker 1: you know, truth and reality versus misinformation and and the

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Speaker 1: people profiting off of it. It makes me think a

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Speaker 1: lot about the parable that your show centers on. You know,

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Speaker 1: this notion of of the one that you feed, would

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Speaker 1: you tell the folks at home what we're referring to. Sure,

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Speaker 1: my podcast is based on an old parable. We don't

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Speaker 1: know where it comes from. Some people attribute it to

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Speaker 1: Native Americans. Other people insist it's not of Native American origin.

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Speaker 1: The jury seems to be out on that to me,

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Speaker 1: so I can't really attribute it or not attribute it anywhere.

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Speaker 1: But the parable goes like this. There's a grandparent talking

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Speaker 1: with his grandchild, and in it, the grandparents says, there's

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Speaker 1: two wolves inside of us that are always at battle.

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Speaker 1: One is a good wolf, which represents things like kindness

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Speaker 1: and bravery and love, and the other is a bad wolf,

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Speaker 1: which represents things like greed and hatred and fear. And

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Speaker 1: the grandchild thinks about it and looks up, but it's

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Speaker 1: grandparents says, well, which one wins? And the grandparents says,

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Speaker 1: the one you feed. So I start each of my

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Speaker 1: podcast episodes off you to answer that question. Recently, where

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Speaker 1: I asked my guests you know what that question means

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Speaker 1: to them in their life and in the work that

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Speaker 1: they do. It's such a beautiful place to start, and

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Speaker 1: I'm I'm wondering because I always like to go back

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Speaker 1: with people, you know, I want to know how you

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Speaker 1: the eric I know became the eric I know. Do

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Speaker 1: you remember the first time that you heard the parable,

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Speaker 1: the first time that story kind of came into your

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Speaker 1: life vaguely and the way you remember things oftentimes twenty

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Speaker 1: five years later. UM, I know. I would have been

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Speaker 1: somewhere in Columbus, Ohio in the winter of It would

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Speaker 1: have been in a twelve step meeting, probably in a

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Speaker 1: church basement somewhere would have been where I first heard it, um.

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Speaker 1: And at that time I would have been a few

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Speaker 1: months sober from heroin. I was, you know, pretty low bottom,

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Speaker 1: heroin addict, homeless, looking at going to jail for a

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Speaker 1: long time, I had hepatitis C. It was really sick.

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Speaker 1: And so I would have heard it somewhere around them.

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Speaker 1: Would have been the first time I heard it, And

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Speaker 1: at that moment it just really rang out so true

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Speaker 1: in my life, and it was so clear to me

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Speaker 1: that I had these choices in front of me, and

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Speaker 1: there were a certain set of choices that we're going

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Speaker 1: to lead me perhaps to a life of um certainly

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Speaker 1: better than the one I was living. And there was

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Speaker 1: another set of choices that were likely to end up

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Speaker 1: in jail or institution or death, you know, and so

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Speaker 1: it was very apparent to me and a very strong

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Speaker 1: parable and at that point, you know, I I sometimes

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Speaker 1: jokingly say, I don't think I was feeding the good

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Speaker 1: Wolf anymore. I think he was eating me at that

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Speaker 1: at that juncture of my life. Um, but it just

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Speaker 1: really struck me in the way it does everybody when

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Speaker 1: you hear it, you sort of immediately get it. And

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Speaker 1: it just but was very stark to me and felt

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Speaker 1: very life or death to me at that time. I

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Speaker 1: think that's so beautiful. It strikes me that there's this

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Speaker 1: thing in in my line of work, you know, and

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Speaker 1: store of telling. When you're making films or television, you're

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Speaker 1: figuring out how to become a character. And the thing

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Speaker 1: that change the way I approach my work is this

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Speaker 1: idea that the more specific, the more universal a story

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Speaker 1: can be. And and what I love about the Parable

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Speaker 1: and the way it changed your life and what you've

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Speaker 1: chosen to do with it is that it's this incredibly

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Speaker 1: specific story, but because it's so clear, you you immediately

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Speaker 1: feel like it applies to you. And everyone has that

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Speaker 1: experience when they hear it. And I think sometimes we need, um,

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Speaker 1: we need a person a representation or or a metaphor

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Speaker 1: to give us just enough of an outside perspective to

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Speaker 1: realize that the thing we're looking at is also us. Yeah. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think that's what great storytelling does. You know, it

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Speaker 1: really does it. I think it's a great storytelling. I

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Speaker 1: think it's what great art of all sorts does, is

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Speaker 1: it reflects back to us something that we knew to

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Speaker 1: be true but we couldn't articulate. But we knew it.

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Speaker 1: We already knew it was true, And when you hear it,

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Speaker 1: you're like a you know, sometimes there's that sense of

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Speaker 1: like I should have written that. I could have written that,

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Speaker 1: I could have said that, you know, and you know,

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Speaker 1: it's it's It's one of the things I love about,

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Speaker 1: you know, art, is when I have that, when that

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Speaker 1: moment of surprise comes on me or I'm like, yes,

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Speaker 1: I knew that. Yeah. That is such a beautiful feeling,

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Speaker 1: isn't it. When you hear something for the first time,

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Speaker 1: but it it's almost like it rings an ancient bell

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Speaker 1: in you somewhere inside of you. You have that strange

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Speaker 1: aha moment of I've always known this, but this is

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Speaker 1: the first time I've heard It's it's such an interesting

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Speaker 1: kind of dichotomy, and and I think there's an incredible

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Speaker 1: power in offering those kinds of moments to people. I

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Speaker 1: think of it as a great kindness, And it's something

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Speaker 1: that you do. In the ways that you talk about

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Speaker 1: your life, your struggles with addiction. You're so forthright, and

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Speaker 1: by giving yourself permission to be open and vulnerable, you

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Speaker 1: give so many other people permission to do the same.

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Speaker 1: I'm curious about your early life. I want to know

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Speaker 1: how your story became your story, and obviously what you

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Speaker 1: were going through in your early and mid twenties is

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Speaker 1: something I think a lot of people have learned from

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Speaker 1: Who was Eric? Even before? I wonder about your life,

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Speaker 1: you know, growing up in in Columbus, Who was Eric?

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Speaker 1: As a kid at you know, eight or ten years old?

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Speaker 1: What were you interested in and and what was your circumstance. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's such a fascinating question that I reflect on, and

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Speaker 1: it it's a question that's challenging for me in a

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Speaker 1: in a few different ways. One is I don't have

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Speaker 1: a lot of memory, whatever reason I don't the early

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Speaker 1: parts of my life. There's just very little memory there.

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Speaker 1: So I know, um, sort of what I've patched together.

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Speaker 1: I know what I've seen in pictures, I know what

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Speaker 1: people have told me, but my own experience of those

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Speaker 1: years feels very vacant. It's hard for me to really

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Speaker 1: get in touch with And then the other thing I

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Speaker 1: think is interesting about those years is well, I did

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Speaker 1: not suffer traumatic abuse with a capital T like a

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Speaker 1: lot of people did. Um. I think, for whatever reason

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Speaker 1: the way that what what my little me needed uh

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Speaker 1: maybe wasn't what it got. And so I wonder how

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Speaker 1: much of me, at even at what age, was really me,

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Speaker 1: and how much of it was already a response to

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Speaker 1: and uh and a coping mechanism, you know, like by

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Speaker 1: the time I was ten years old, I was a kleptomaniac.

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Speaker 1: Like I stole obsessively. I don't know that that's me.

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Speaker 1: So so it was a response to something at a

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Speaker 1: very early age. But what some things that I do

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Speaker 1: know about me, uh, that I think have been consistent

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Speaker 1: throughout the years. I've always loved to learn and read,

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Speaker 1: So learning reading, being exposed to new things always sort

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Speaker 1: of lit me up. Um. I think I always love

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Speaker 1: to move my body. I think that was always an

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Speaker 1: important part of my life. Um. And it's not. I

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Speaker 1: wouldn't consider myself athletic, but I think I've recognized over

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Speaker 1: the years that movement just feel like I have the

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Speaker 1: I have a physiology that needs movement to some degree.

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Speaker 1: What did that mean? You were always or I guess

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Speaker 1: thinking about where you do and don't have memory. Do

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Speaker 1: you recall being an active kid running around a lot?

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Speaker 1: I think I was pretty active. I mean I think

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Speaker 1: I was. I read a lot, but I was also

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Speaker 1: very active. I you know, I grew up in the

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Speaker 1: seventies and one of those suburban neighborhoods that you could

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Speaker 1: just go out at nine in the morning and rome

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Speaker 1: till ten at night, you know, and your parents were

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Speaker 1: just like, Okay, go have fun, you know it just

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Speaker 1: and everybody, Yeah, everybody felt safe. And so yeah, I

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Speaker 1: think there was a lot of just running around and

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Speaker 1: riding bikes and playing a lot of baseball and just

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Speaker 1: you know, playing games. Is there something that marks a

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Speaker 1: shift for you because you you talk about the years

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Speaker 1: you know, um, and you've spoken really openly about the

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Speaker 1: fact that by the time you were twenty four, UM,

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Speaker 1: you were experiencing homelessness. What was sort of the the

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Speaker 1: thing that went off kilter for you was that in

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Speaker 1: your teens? Kind of It's interesting because, um, by the

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Speaker 1: time I was sixteen, I was about to be expelled

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Speaker 1: from high school simply for not basically for not going.

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Speaker 1: I just used every possible tool at my creativity to

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Speaker 1: avoid ever going to school. And I feel like me

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Speaker 1: and the guidance counselors at high school were locked in

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Speaker 1: a pitched battle who could be more creative. I think

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Speaker 1: at one juncture, I stumbled on the fact that if

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Speaker 1: I got a excuse slip from the Department of Public Health,

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Speaker 1: essentially where people went to get tested for venereal disease.

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Speaker 1: I got one of their slips, and I made copies

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Speaker 1: of it, and I turned it in high school, and

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Speaker 1: I realized nobody could check because the public Health department

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Speaker 1: is bound by secrecy, they could never prove it wasn't

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Speaker 1: that I didn't, and I started selling those permission slips

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Speaker 1: around school. I think our I think our school administration

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Speaker 1: might have thought we had a serious venereal disease problem

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Speaker 1: at our high school. Um. But anyway, so that that

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Speaker 1: was the kind of shenanigans I was into by sixteen,

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Speaker 1: and my guidance counsel at the end of my sophomore year,

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Speaker 1: said all right, we're not doing this again. There's an

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Speaker 1: alternative program down the road. If you want to go

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Speaker 1: to that, give it a try, or I'm going to

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Speaker 1: expel you. But I'm I'm just not going through another

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Speaker 1: year of this with you. And I think he saw

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Speaker 1: in me that I just needed an outlet. And I

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Speaker 1: went to this alternative program and my life changed. I

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Speaker 1: was suddenly interested. I founded a tutoring program for disadvantaged youth,

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Speaker 1: started scholarship programs I mean, and I spent two incredible

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Speaker 1: years really engaged in what I now know is important

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Speaker 1: service and helping others and creating a community and serving

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Speaker 1: that community. And I went from a troubled teenager to

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Speaker 1: a straight a student that was living my best life.

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Speaker 1: And in that process, I made a decision that I

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Speaker 1: was going to be straight edge because the children, the

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Speaker 1: kids that I was working with, I could see what

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Speaker 1: drugs and alcohol were doing to their families and their lives.

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Speaker 1: And I said, I'm not I don't want any part

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Speaker 1: of that. And I had drank a little bit, I

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Speaker 1: had smoked, you know, I had experiment with drugs a

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Speaker 1: little bit, and I just said no to all that

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Speaker 1: and so I had two really incredible years where like

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Speaker 1: my life turned around, and then I went away for

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Speaker 1: after my after graduated from high school, I went away

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Speaker 1: firs summer. I came back and my best friend was

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Speaker 1: dating my girlfriend, and I just simply didn't have the

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Speaker 1: tools to cope. And one day somebody said, here, you

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Speaker 1: would have a drink, and I said, I don't care anymore.

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Speaker 1: I took a drink, and it was at that point

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Speaker 1: it was like a six year race to the bottom

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Speaker 1: for me. It literally was like a switch flipped and

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Speaker 1: I just was drunk or high probably nearly every day

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Speaker 1: for the next six years, in a descending fashion, down

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Speaker 1: into where I ended up with with heroin addiction. So

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Speaker 1: it's this really interesting sort of tale of two youths

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Speaker 1: like lost found lost again. Something that really strikes me

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Speaker 1: about what you're saying and where I think there is

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Speaker 1: such a disservice done two boys and young men in particular,

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Speaker 1: is the lack of tools around vulnerability and emotion. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's not lost on me that really the thing that's

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Speaker 1: very reinforced in our culture as the only except doble

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Speaker 1: expression of feeling for boys and for young men is anger.

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Speaker 1: You know, the the idea that when a when a

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Speaker 1: young man is emotional, people will say, well, don't be

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Speaker 1: a bit about it, or you're crying like a girl.

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Speaker 1: You know, all of these things, And and with sports

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Speaker 1: and the sort of outward expression of rage and violence,

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Speaker 1: especially in things like football, which you know, look at

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Speaker 1: the landscape of Middle American high schools and there's the charming,

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Speaker 1: Friday night Friday night lights nature of it. And then

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Speaker 1: there's this other reality when when I talk to young

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Speaker 1: people and I realize that boys are only given the

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Speaker 1: permission to be angry and girls are never supposed to

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Speaker 1: be angry, and and it hurts both groups. And when

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Speaker 1: I look at UM, at least in traditionally identifying groups,

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Speaker 1: when you look at the instances of violence that people experience,

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Speaker 1: and the fact that most girls, you know, one in

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Speaker 1: four women by the age of twenty two has been assaulted.

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Speaker 1: Uh and and those statistics refer to as as being

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Speaker 1: having been assaulted or sexually assaulted by men, I just think, like,

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Speaker 1: why do we do this to kids? Look look at

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Speaker 1: the pain by not giving kids the tools to deal

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Speaker 1: with pain, by not having any kind of UM empathy

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Speaker 1: based education, you know, our sex said is crap in

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Speaker 1: America anyway, right like our our our sex said classes

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Speaker 1: are kind of a joke. But what we really I think,

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Speaker 1: in terms of fixing the way we talk to people

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Speaker 1: about their bodies is we should also talk to them

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Speaker 1: about their emotions. And it makes me so sad to

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Speaker 1: think about you going through this moment of incredible pain

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Speaker 1: as an eighteen year old boy and having no outlet,

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Speaker 1: no one giving you any semblance of guidance as to

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Speaker 1: how to deal with it, how to sit and have

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Speaker 1: a really you know, open conversation with your former best

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Speaker 1: friend and your and your former partner, and and the

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Speaker 1: damage that you know, the self inflicted violence if you will,

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Speaker 1: that that can create. I just it kills me. I

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Speaker 1: wish we I really wish we could wake up to

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Speaker 1: figuring out how to give our kids better tool kits. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because it's interesting my tool kit. I rebelled very early

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Speaker 1: in high school against that toxic masculinity, that macho that

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Speaker 1: so I was, you know, a cure fan, you know,

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Speaker 1: like you know, I love this song boys Don't Cry, right,

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Speaker 1: you know, So I I embrace that whole emotional aspect.

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Speaker 1: But I felt like, in reflecting what you're saying, it

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Speaker 1: felt like there were almost two two places to be.

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Speaker 1: One was this toxic masculinity and the other was almost

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Speaker 1: this helplessness. And I think what children need, and what

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Speaker 1: kids teenagers need is we need to learn to inhabit

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Speaker 1: what I talk a lot about on the podcast and

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Speaker 1: in the in the work that I do with people,

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Speaker 1: sort of emotional regulation, which is like, Okay, we have

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Speaker 1: thoughts and emotions, how do we work with them skillfully,

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Speaker 1: you know, so that we're not either completely denying them

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Speaker 1: or we're not completely overwhelmed by them. You know, I

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Speaker 1: was in the completely overwhelmed by them camp. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: going to deny them, but I didn't have the skills

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Speaker 1: to work with them. So I was the opposite, which

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Speaker 1: was morose. You know. It was like, you know, it

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Speaker 1: was melodramatic and over dramatic and and I just don't

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Speaker 1: think I ever saw a healthy middle ground modeled. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: because what I'm what I'm hearing you say, The imagery

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Speaker 1: I'm getting is that the spectrum really almost runs from

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Speaker 1: completely avoidant, which can be toxic, to you know, feeling

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Speaker 1: like you're emotionally drowning. Both of these things are so terrible.

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Speaker 1: Those are terrible realities to to feel like you are

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Speaker 1: emotionally stuck in. And it doesn't surprise me that finding

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Speaker 1: a numbing agent would feel like a great way to

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Speaker 1: get unstuck, or perhaps get out of the feeling of

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Speaker 1: emotional drowning and get closer to what felt like avoidance,

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Speaker 1: what felt like escapism. Right when when did it turn

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Speaker 1: for you? Do you remember when it went from the

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Speaker 1: early stages of alcoholism to drug use, because six years,

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's a long time to struggle with addiction.

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Speaker 1: But also when you talk about the level of bottom

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Speaker 1: that you hit, you know, yeah, it feels kind of

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Speaker 1: fast too, Yeah, it was. It's interesting because I can

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Speaker 1: look back in it and see from the beginning I

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Speaker 1: was using if we want to use the term addictively

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Speaker 1: or alcoholically, like I was right out of the gate,

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Speaker 1: just in trouble. It appears to me, I feel like

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Speaker 1: so much of all the stealing I did when I

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Speaker 1: was younger, the avoiding school, the trouble I was always in,

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Speaker 1: and then the complete switch from that to like I'm

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Speaker 1: a I'm I'm helping other people, I'm running this, this

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Speaker 1: this tutoring organization. You know, those were my attempts to

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Speaker 1: cope with whatever it was that was going on with me, um,

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Speaker 1: whatever troubles I had. And so I feel like when

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Speaker 1: I started with alcohol, it was like I was, I

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Speaker 1: felt like I was already down some path some ways,

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Speaker 1: I think, like anybody. I mean, my alcohol, you know,

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Speaker 1: started with alcohol, and then there was marijuana, and then

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Speaker 1: there was occasional psychedelics, and just over time, as I

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Speaker 1: got I was I was a musician. As I got

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Speaker 1: deeper into the Columbus music scene, I started playing with

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Speaker 1: the band and eventually I you know, those band members

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Speaker 1: were using heroin, and um, I started using it too,

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Speaker 1: And you know, it's a pretty addictive substance on top

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Speaker 1: of an already addictive personality and behavior structure, and so

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Speaker 1: it was just you know, it just but to me,

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Speaker 1: it just looks like sort of a if you just

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Speaker 1: looked at it. It was just one slow descent, you know,

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Speaker 1: one over six years, um, which is kind of quick

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Speaker 1: in a way. I mean, I often think how fortunate

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Speaker 1: I was. I feel fortunate that I got exposed to

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Speaker 1: heroin and I had such a low bottom so quickly,

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Speaker 1: because I feel like I could have strung together drinking

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Speaker 1: and smoking pot for a whole bunch more years before

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Speaker 1: it became a crisis, which I would have postponed my life.

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Speaker 1: I would have missed a lot of my life. I

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Speaker 1: feel fortunate that at now I did not stay sober

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Speaker 1: from twenty onward entirely. But the vast majority of my

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Speaker 1: adult life, you know, I'm I'm fifty one now, so

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Speaker 1: the vast majority of my adult life has been in

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Speaker 1: some form of recovery, and I feel fortunate for that,

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Speaker 1: you know. So I almost look at me encountering heroin

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Speaker 1: at that age as a as a really good thing,

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Speaker 1: because it really caused the bottom to fall out much

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Speaker 1: more quickly. And that's largely because of the laws of

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Speaker 1: our society more than anything else. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 1: think it's right necessarily. I don't think that heroin is

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Speaker 1: worse than alcohol. Now. It's more dangerous because of the

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Speaker 1: way we choose to uh make some things legal and not,

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Speaker 1: you know, and the nature of heroin being a street

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Speaker 1: drug caused me to have to have way more money

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Speaker 1: to afford it, I mean, which led to a whole

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Speaker 1: raft of behaviors. I mean so, But but underneath it,

401
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Speaker 1: to me, there wasn't a big difference between alcohol and

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Speaker 1: heroin really in what I was doing and how I

403
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Speaker 1: was using it. It was just that the external drug

404
00:23:45,400 --> 00:23:48,240
Speaker 1: policy that we've chosen to have made one a whole

405
00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,359
Speaker 1: lot more dangerous and destructive than the other, which is

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00:23:51,359 --> 00:23:54,440
Speaker 1: a whole another conversation. And that is really interesting too,

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Speaker 1: because we look away at a lot of what I

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Speaker 1: think you're referring to the dangerous and addictive behavior that

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Speaker 1: so many people in our society really are showcasing with alcohol,

410
00:24:08,640 --> 00:24:10,760
Speaker 1: and we go, yeah, but it's just a drink. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's legal, and I think it can numb us to

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Speaker 1: people's suffering and to what people are using a substance

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Speaker 1: for to try to escape numb etcetera. And I think

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Speaker 1: you're right because street drugs are unstable. I suppose you

415
00:24:32,920 --> 00:24:36,359
Speaker 1: could say, you know, people O D they're they're incredibly

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Speaker 1: dangerous and they require dangerous behavior to acquire. UM. We

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Speaker 1: we much more quickly say that's bad. That person needs help,

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Speaker 1: and and it's interesting that there's probably a lot more

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Speaker 1: people who need help than than we acknowledge. I wonder

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Speaker 1: you know at that time, because you talk about beginning

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Speaker 1: to get sober at what was the experience like what's

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Speaker 1: it like to be twenty four years old and to

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Speaker 1: be experiencing homelessness? I mean, what what is the day

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Speaker 1: to day reality for a young unhoused man. Are there

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Speaker 1: things you wish people knew or or understood about? You know,

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00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: what are unhoused communities are going through. I feel like

427
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:22,760
Speaker 1: a I'm a long way from that. Uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's been a lot of years. Like I don't feel

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Speaker 1: like I could speak to the reality of what it's

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Speaker 1: like to be unhoused today, five years later. I also

431
00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:38,640
Speaker 1: think that my version of unhoused was um different than

432
00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:41,760
Speaker 1: a lot of people's. You know, once I decided to

433
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,000
Speaker 1: go into rehab, I suddenly had a place to stay.

434
00:25:44,040 --> 00:25:46,879
Speaker 1: When I came out right, my parents were willing to

435
00:25:46,920 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 1: take me back in. I had a safe place to go.

436
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:55,720
Speaker 1: So my my middle class upbringing, my white middle class upbringing,

437
00:25:55,760 --> 00:26:00,800
Speaker 1: gave me enormous advantages in navigating all of that. So

438
00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:04,520
Speaker 1: I would I would hesitate to speak to people. There's

439
00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,520
Speaker 1: people is experience who did not have those advantages. Like

440
00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,480
Speaker 1: I didn't go to jail because I was an upper

441
00:26:10,520 --> 00:26:13,520
Speaker 1: middle class white kid. If I was not, I probably

442
00:26:13,520 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 1: would have been in jail for a long time. That's

443
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:20,880
Speaker 1: just the reality of the situation. I was given options. Now,

444
00:26:20,920 --> 00:26:24,199
Speaker 1: I wasn't let off Scott free. I was given a

445
00:26:24,240 --> 00:26:26,840
Speaker 1: diversion program, and I was on probation for a lot

446
00:26:26,880 --> 00:26:29,320
Speaker 1: of years, and I had to meet very strict criteria.

447
00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:32,439
Speaker 1: So I mean, if I had screwed that up, I

448
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: think I would have had consequences. But to even be

449
00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: given that opportunity speaks to the privilege that I had,

450
00:26:39,600 --> 00:26:44,520
Speaker 1: and that privilege followed me from that initial arrest through

451
00:26:45,440 --> 00:26:48,520
Speaker 1: through every part of getting sober. You know, it was

452
00:26:48,720 --> 00:26:52,200
Speaker 1: I had advantages. You know, even to have been educated

453
00:26:52,240 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 1: in the way I was at a high school just

454
00:26:55,119 --> 00:26:58,320
Speaker 1: allowed me to come out of addiction and be somebody

455
00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,720
Speaker 1: who knew how to go on a job interview, knew

456
00:27:00,760 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: how to go in and talk to people, had a parent.

457
00:27:04,160 --> 00:27:07,320
Speaker 1: I mean, I just had advantages. And so so that's

458
00:27:07,320 --> 00:27:09,840
Speaker 1: why I would be hesitant to speak to that issue

459
00:27:10,480 --> 00:27:13,440
Speaker 1: for people who don't have them. I really appreciate that,

460
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:16,640
Speaker 1: and I have to say, I'm so grateful for your

461
00:27:17,760 --> 00:27:21,560
Speaker 1: willingness to share that part of your perspective because we

462
00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:25,639
Speaker 1: are in this moment where we're trying to unpack privilege

463
00:27:25,680 --> 00:27:28,560
Speaker 1: as it affects systems in our society, and you know

464
00:27:28,640 --> 00:27:30,960
Speaker 1: you just said it. You said, I'm fifty one. You

465
00:27:31,000 --> 00:27:33,600
Speaker 1: are a fifty one year old white man from Ohio,

466
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:38,160
Speaker 1: and you you are not suffering in any way by

467
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:45,080
Speaker 1: admitting your privilege. And I really appreciate you modeling that

468
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 1: for other people, because there's been a lot of pushback

469
00:27:48,359 --> 00:27:52,399
Speaker 1: on this notion of what privilege looks like, and I

470
00:27:52,440 --> 00:27:55,960
Speaker 1: think it's so important for those of us who have

471
00:27:56,160 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 1: it in whatever relative way we do, to say no, no,

472
00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: it's okay for me to admit this, and it doesn't

473
00:28:02,320 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: make me a bad person, and it doesn't mean I

474
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:09,399
Speaker 1: haven't suffered. It simply means I've had an easier time

475
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: navigating systems, whether they're of my own creation or not,

476
00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:18,800
Speaker 1: in which I have suffered, been punished, succeeded then other people.

477
00:28:19,160 --> 00:28:23,200
Speaker 1: That's all, so thank you for being willing to do that. Yeah.

478
00:28:23,240 --> 00:28:26,160
Speaker 1: We had a gentleman on recently, Res Memerican, who writes

479
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:28,720
Speaker 1: a lot about racialized trauma. I wrote a great book

480
00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:31,080
Speaker 1: called My Grandmother's Hands, and he uses a phrase that

481
00:28:31,119 --> 00:28:36,800
Speaker 1: I almost liked better, and which is white advantage. And

482
00:28:36,840 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 1: there's something about that that's just like yeah, I had advantages.

483
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: You know, I nearly threw them all away. I did

484
00:28:45,280 --> 00:28:48,520
Speaker 1: my best in some ways to throw them away, but

485
00:28:48,560 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 1: they were waiting for me, you know, they were waiting

486
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:53,840
Speaker 1: for me when I wanted to pick them back up.

487
00:28:54,480 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: You know, when you're a twenty four year old heroin attict,

488
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: there's a lot you want street credit at that time.

489
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,080
Speaker 1: You know that the last thing you want is to

490
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: be like a white middle class person. You want street cred, right,

491
00:29:05,920 --> 00:29:09,520
Speaker 1: that's the world you're rolling in. So despite my best

492
00:29:09,640 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: attempts to sort of throw off any of that advantage,

493
00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:15,840
Speaker 1: it was sitting right at the door for me to

494
00:29:15,880 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 1: pick up as soon as I needed it, you know.

495
00:29:19,320 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: And and I just look at people I went through

496
00:29:21,200 --> 00:29:23,760
Speaker 1: treatment with who got out, and they were like they

497
00:29:23,760 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 1: had nowhere to go that wasn't back to a house

498
00:29:26,320 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 1: that was filled with drugs. Their family, you know, they

499
00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 1: didn't have employment possibilities, they didn't have they had children,

500
00:29:32,840 --> 00:29:35,320
Speaker 1: they didn't have child I mean, you know, it's just

501
00:29:35,680 --> 00:29:38,960
Speaker 1: so to say, like, yeah, I mean everybody's got to

502
00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: get sober that you've got to do that work yourself.

503
00:29:41,920 --> 00:29:44,320
Speaker 1: And I just feel like I had an easier road

504
00:29:44,360 --> 00:29:46,120
Speaker 1: of it than a than a lot of people I saw.

505
00:29:47,280 --> 00:29:50,600
Speaker 1: Was there a defining moment where you said, this is

506
00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: the one for me? I I have to get sober now.

507
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:57,160
Speaker 1: It's interesting. You know we talked about in the beginning

508
00:29:57,200 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 1: about storytelling, right, and storytelling emphasis eyes as these dramatic moments,

509
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: And so I have some dramatic moments, right. I mean,

510
00:30:05,600 --> 00:30:07,960
Speaker 1: I'm I go to Detox after I've been arrested, just

511
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:10,040
Speaker 1: because I'm out of options. I don't know what to do.

512
00:30:10,240 --> 00:30:12,360
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I'm lost. I go to Detox and they

513
00:30:12,360 --> 00:30:15,400
Speaker 1: say you need to go into a longer term treatment program,

514
00:30:15,400 --> 00:30:18,080
Speaker 1: and I said no, thank you, and I went back

515
00:30:18,080 --> 00:30:20,440
Speaker 1: to my my room in Detox, and I had a

516
00:30:20,520 --> 00:30:22,800
Speaker 1: sort of a moment of clarity where I went like,

517
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:26,440
Speaker 1: you're gonna die or go to jail, Like those are

518
00:30:26,840 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: like that's what's happening. Because at that point I realized, like, oh,

519
00:30:30,320 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: I have hepatitis C. I weighed thirty five pounds less

520
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:36,520
Speaker 1: than I weighed a day. I mean, I was really

521
00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,960
Speaker 1: sick and I was facing potentially fifty years in jail.

522
00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:42,760
Speaker 1: And so I had I had a moment of clarity,

523
00:30:42,800 --> 00:30:44,920
Speaker 1: as we would refer to it, right, and so so

524
00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:46,840
Speaker 1: there was that moment where I went back to him

525
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 1: and said, Okay, I will go into treatment, longer term treatment.

526
00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:53,719
Speaker 1: You know. There's another moment where I agreed to go

527
00:30:53,760 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: into a halfway house for six months. Right. So those

528
00:30:56,000 --> 00:30:58,920
Speaker 1: are big moments. But I think what's interesting is I

529
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:03,160
Speaker 1: often say there were thousands of little moments along the

530
00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 1: way where I chose again and again, sort of like

531
00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:08,360
Speaker 1: the wolf parable, right where I just fed the good

532
00:31:08,360 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 1: wolf a little bit. They're not real dramatic moments. Each

533
00:31:11,480 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: meeting I went to, each time I chose to you know,

534
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: read a piece of recovery literature, each time I chose

535
00:31:17,360 --> 00:31:19,600
Speaker 1: to hang out with people in recovery. All these little

536
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,680
Speaker 1: moments that add up in addition to some some big moments,

537
00:31:23,720 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: you know, where I can sort of see, like, you know,

538
00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 1: getting arrested, that's pretty transformative moment, but not always, you know.

539
00:31:30,320 --> 00:31:32,800
Speaker 1: I think in recovery we focus a lot on bottoms,

540
00:31:33,480 --> 00:31:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, we focus a lot on consequence, and I

541
00:31:35,480 --> 00:31:39,800
Speaker 1: think that's a really important part, but it's been over emphasized.

542
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,640
Speaker 1: Where I think it, there's two things. I think there's

543
00:31:42,680 --> 00:31:45,920
Speaker 1: For me, it was like a bottom and a consequence

544
00:31:46,760 --> 00:31:51,840
Speaker 1: along with the appearance of really genuine hope. Those two

545
00:31:51,920 --> 00:31:54,360
Speaker 1: things seemed to me to be a pretty fertile soil

546
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:57,160
Speaker 1: that my recovery could grow out of. If I didn't

547
00:31:57,160 --> 00:31:58,960
Speaker 1: have either, If I only had one of those two,

548
00:31:59,000 --> 00:32:00,600
Speaker 1: I don't I don't think it it have worked if

549
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: I just had the despair. Plenty of people have despair,

550
00:32:05,080 --> 00:32:07,920
Speaker 1: addicts have it over and over and over again, so

551
00:32:08,040 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 1: clearly that's not enough. So it was for whatever reason,

552
00:32:11,880 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 1: the conditions came together in such a way that I

553
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:18,240
Speaker 1: was able to see the futility of my current situation

554
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: and believe that something else could happen. The little moments

555
00:32:23,840 --> 00:32:28,000
Speaker 1: that add up really strike me, because that's that's the

556
00:32:28,040 --> 00:32:32,560
Speaker 1: practice of a life, the choices that we make over

557
00:32:32,600 --> 00:32:34,760
Speaker 1: and over again to be a bit better, to honor

558
00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 1: ourselves a bit more. And I know that you've spoken

559
00:32:39,040 --> 00:32:41,760
Speaker 1: to and worked with so many people to help them

560
00:32:41,840 --> 00:32:47,120
Speaker 1: change their own behaviors. And you said a few moments

561
00:32:47,160 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: ago that from to fifty one you didn't maintain, you know,

562
00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:58,320
Speaker 1: snap of a finger, sobriety forever. So in those earlier

563
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:02,920
Speaker 1: days when relapses are common for people, and you run

564
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 1: into your own version of that, how how do you

565
00:33:05,880 --> 00:33:07,920
Speaker 1: get out of the despair. How do you get out

566
00:33:07,920 --> 00:33:11,600
Speaker 1: of the shame spiral? You know what what got you

567
00:33:11,680 --> 00:33:15,480
Speaker 1: through that? Because I would imagine there's someone or maybe

568
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,880
Speaker 1: many someone's who are listening to us have this conversation

569
00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: today who have struggled with this, or who loves someone

570
00:33:21,720 --> 00:33:25,640
Speaker 1: who's struggling with this. And I feel like the the

571
00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:29,120
Speaker 1: way to continue even when you slip is so important

572
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: for people to hear about. And I'm I'm curious how

573
00:33:31,800 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 1: you did that and found that kind of strength. Yeah,

574
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,840
Speaker 1: I think that is a big piece of recovery, and

575
00:33:36,880 --> 00:33:39,200
Speaker 1: I think it's important in any of us who are

576
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: trying to change our lives, even in small ways, you

577
00:33:42,320 --> 00:33:44,880
Speaker 1: know what might feel like a small way in comparison

578
00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:48,000
Speaker 1: to say addiction, because what happens with a lot of

579
00:33:48,040 --> 00:33:51,440
Speaker 1: I mean, failure is part of it, you know. So

580
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: you know when I described getting sober at that that time,

581
00:33:55,600 --> 00:33:57,880
Speaker 1: that was what took that time, and it took for

582
00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: eight years, But there were a bunch of missteps before that,

583
00:34:03,440 --> 00:34:05,960
Speaker 1: lots of times of picking up some book about recovery.

584
00:34:06,040 --> 00:34:08,480
Speaker 1: I remember the first time I came across the Narcotics

585
00:34:08,520 --> 00:34:11,799
Speaker 1: Anonymous book, I just read it and sobbed because I

586
00:34:11,880 --> 00:34:14,960
Speaker 1: was like, I could not believe that, like the first time,

587
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 1: kind of like we said very early on, somebody actually

588
00:34:17,920 --> 00:34:19,919
Speaker 1: says something you know to be true that you could

589
00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:22,879
Speaker 1: never put into words. That was my experience of it, Like,

590
00:34:23,200 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: because what what any addict will tell you is, I

591
00:34:25,880 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: don't know why I'm doing this. I don't understand what

592
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 1: is happening to me, and and all of a sudden

593
00:34:32,440 --> 00:34:34,879
Speaker 1: you get into recovering people articulated and you're like, oh

594
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: my god, that's it. That's it. I feel like that,

595
00:34:37,640 --> 00:34:40,000
Speaker 1: you know. So, so there were a bunch of times

596
00:34:40,200 --> 00:34:42,880
Speaker 1: of me trying to get sober and not getting sober.

597
00:34:42,920 --> 00:34:47,600
Speaker 1: I sometimes think my most dangerous time was the first

598
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:50,840
Speaker 1: time I went to rehab and got out and I

599
00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:53,200
Speaker 1: stayed sober about thirty days, and then I used again.

600
00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:58,200
Speaker 1: And that intervening window was a really dark time because

601
00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 1: I think in my mind, I went while I tried,

602
00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 1: I went to rehab, I tried, and now I guess,

603
00:35:05,840 --> 00:35:07,640
Speaker 1: once an addict, always an addict, this is the way

604
00:35:07,680 --> 00:35:09,960
Speaker 1: I'm going to die. And so it was a really

605
00:35:10,080 --> 00:35:13,040
Speaker 1: dark period. You know, it was a lot of despair.

606
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:16,759
Speaker 1: And what I didn't know then was that that's very

607
00:35:16,840 --> 00:35:22,040
Speaker 1: common you know, our attempts to recover are usually a

608
00:35:22,080 --> 00:35:24,400
Speaker 1: little step forward to step back, a step forward to

609
00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:26,319
Speaker 1: step back. It's why an A that I think the

610
00:35:26,360 --> 00:35:29,080
Speaker 1: most important phrase that they use is keep coming back,

611
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:34,920
Speaker 1: no matter what, just keep coming back, you know. And

612
00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:37,920
Speaker 1: so I think that that message is great for any

613
00:35:37,920 --> 00:35:40,920
Speaker 1: sort of recovery from anything or even trying to change

614
00:35:40,960 --> 00:35:45,160
Speaker 1: any behavior in our life, like keep trying, just keep

615
00:35:45,280 --> 00:35:48,000
Speaker 1: coming back, you know. And what I know from working

616
00:35:48,000 --> 00:35:50,080
Speaker 1: with people over a lot of years, working with a

617
00:35:50,120 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: lot of people one on one um and my coaching

618
00:35:53,880 --> 00:35:57,080
Speaker 1: practice and all that, is that two words are really

619
00:35:57,120 --> 00:35:59,680
Speaker 1: important in this process. And they are They are kindness

620
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:06,080
Speaker 1: and curiosity. Kindness towards ourselves and curiosity about how to change.

621
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,920
Speaker 1: Because what happens, and you use the word the shame spiral,

622
00:36:09,960 --> 00:36:13,320
Speaker 1: that's exactly it. That's that the downward spiral of addiction

623
00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,439
Speaker 1: is I feel terrible about myself. So I feel so bad.

624
00:36:17,520 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 1: The only thing I can do is use. So I use,

625
00:36:20,719 --> 00:36:22,720
Speaker 1: and now I come back around and I feel worse

626
00:36:22,760 --> 00:36:25,600
Speaker 1: about myself and the only thing I can do is use.

627
00:36:25,719 --> 00:36:29,520
Speaker 1: And it's this terrible downward spiral and all that judgment.

628
00:36:29,960 --> 00:36:32,320
Speaker 1: And so if we can flip it just a little

629
00:36:32,360 --> 00:36:38,600
Speaker 1: bit and get curious, relate to ourselves kindly and curiously, like, okay,

630
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:40,520
Speaker 1: what can I you know, what can I learn? So

631
00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,719
Speaker 1: what I learned from going to rehab that time was

632
00:36:45,200 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: and again, this took me a while to work my

633
00:36:47,200 --> 00:36:50,799
Speaker 1: way through. But what I learned was that wasn't enough.

634
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,839
Speaker 1: So I needed to do the next thing and the

635
00:36:53,880 --> 00:36:57,040
Speaker 1: next thing. And so I think for people with particular

636
00:36:57,120 --> 00:37:00,560
Speaker 1: recovery with addiction, it's often a step. It's a it's

637
00:37:00,560 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 1: a process of like all right, well I thought I

638
00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:05,239
Speaker 1: would try this, and well that didn't seem to work.

639
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 1: So now I'll do the next thing, and eventually you

640
00:37:07,920 --> 00:37:12,120
Speaker 1: do you find the level that works for you. Some

641
00:37:12,200 --> 00:37:14,879
Speaker 1: people need what I needed, you know, forty five days

642
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:18,520
Speaker 1: in impatient treatment in a six month halfway house. Other

643
00:37:18,560 --> 00:37:21,960
Speaker 1: people just you know, pick up a book and that's enough, right,

644
00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,400
Speaker 1: Some people go, I mean, there's all places in between that.

645
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,359
Speaker 1: But the process is almost always, very rarely, I think,

646
00:37:29,480 --> 00:37:32,239
Speaker 1: ever have I seen somebody show up like this is

647
00:37:32,280 --> 00:37:35,400
Speaker 1: my very first a A meeting. I've never done anything

648
00:37:35,400 --> 00:37:38,839
Speaker 1: else about this, and now I stayed sober permanently. I mean,

649
00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:42,720
Speaker 1: that's pretty rare. It happens, but it's extraordinarily rare. Most

650
00:37:42,760 --> 00:37:46,719
Speaker 1: people's journeys are a lot more fractured than that. And

651
00:37:46,760 --> 00:37:49,480
Speaker 1: so I think, you know, if anybody's listening to, the

652
00:37:49,520 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 1: thing I would give is keep coming back, you know,

653
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 1: keep trying, keep there is a way out. You may

654
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,560
Speaker 1: have to keep looking for it. And the more kindness

655
00:37:59,600 --> 00:38:02,120
Speaker 1: you can of yourself as you go through that, because

656
00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 1: that self judgment shuts down our ability to learn. We

657
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:09,680
Speaker 1: know this scientifically. We know that when we flood the

658
00:38:09,880 --> 00:38:13,760
Speaker 1: limbic parts of our brain, the emotional parts of our brain,

659
00:38:14,120 --> 00:38:17,640
Speaker 1: that that our learning centers are frontal cortex of the hippocampus,

660
00:38:17,680 --> 00:38:21,800
Speaker 1: all those things, they get less energy, they get less attention,

661
00:38:22,040 --> 00:38:25,000
Speaker 1: so we don't learn. And so what happens with the

662
00:38:25,000 --> 00:38:29,120
Speaker 1: the shame spiral is that we just judge ourselves mercilessly.

663
00:38:29,239 --> 00:38:31,319
Speaker 1: And what that does is it just fires up that

664
00:38:31,400 --> 00:38:34,520
Speaker 1: emotional limbic part of our brain and we can't learn.

665
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:38,080
Speaker 1: So what I do with people really work a lot

666
00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:40,880
Speaker 1: on is how do we turn that down? How do

667
00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,439
Speaker 1: we stop um, you know, sort of shooting the second arrow.

668
00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:46,640
Speaker 1: You know, it's a Buddhist parable of you know, a

669
00:38:46,680 --> 00:38:49,520
Speaker 1: second arrow, which is basically feeling bad about feeling bad.

670
00:38:50,200 --> 00:38:52,920
Speaker 1: You know, how do we interrupt that process anywhere along

671
00:38:52,960 --> 00:38:55,560
Speaker 1: the way so that we can move into Let's just

672
00:38:55,640 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: look really clearly, like what what works? What doesn't? What

673
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:02,960
Speaker 1: am I learning? I okay, I slipped up again? Okay, great?

674
00:39:03,000 --> 00:39:06,120
Speaker 1: What what did you learn? What happened? What can we

675
00:39:06,160 --> 00:39:09,279
Speaker 1: do differently next time? Like, let's because I think of

676
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:13,200
Speaker 1: whether it's an addiction problem or somebody who can't figure

677
00:39:13,200 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: out how to exercise every day. I always think of

678
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: this stuff as like a puzzle, and we've got to

679
00:39:19,440 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 1: get the right pull, all the right levers, get the

680
00:39:22,239 --> 00:39:25,160
Speaker 1: right pieces until the puzzle clicks together. But it feels

681
00:39:25,200 --> 00:39:28,120
Speaker 1: to me, I know, when we're talking about somebody's life,

682
00:39:28,280 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: to say it's a puzzle. I don't want to make

683
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: it sound flippant, but I but I mean it in

684
00:39:33,880 --> 00:39:37,920
Speaker 1: the sense that puzzles are solvable. Mm hmm. If you

685
00:39:38,040 --> 00:39:40,800
Speaker 1: keep you know, if you keep trying to solve a puzzle,

686
00:39:40,920 --> 00:39:45,319
Speaker 1: you will eventually solve it. If it's you know, if

687
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:47,719
Speaker 1: it's the kind of puzzle I'm thinking of anyway, And

688
00:39:47,800 --> 00:39:49,839
Speaker 1: I found that that's the way it is with most

689
00:39:49,840 --> 00:39:53,520
Speaker 1: people and whatever they're going through in life. I love that,

690
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,239
Speaker 1: and I really relate to that, because you know, we

691
00:39:57,280 --> 00:40:00,600
Speaker 1: don't share the same addiction story, but I I know

692
00:40:00,640 --> 00:40:02,560
Speaker 1: what it is to say, oh, I'm going to make

693
00:40:02,600 --> 00:40:05,120
Speaker 1: this change in my life, and then I don't do

694
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,279
Speaker 1: it perfectly, and then I absolutely get stuck in that

695
00:40:08,320 --> 00:40:12,560
Speaker 1: shame spiral. And and that's one of the things, even

696
00:40:12,680 --> 00:40:16,880
Speaker 1: when we were speaking earlier about the escapism or or

697
00:40:16,960 --> 00:40:19,760
Speaker 1: addictions that we judge versus the ones that we don't,

698
00:40:20,719 --> 00:40:24,120
Speaker 1: many of these things are so much more close together

699
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,680
Speaker 1: on the spectrum than we like to admit. And and

700
00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:30,839
Speaker 1: I'm I'm really I am curious about that. When did

701
00:40:30,880 --> 00:40:33,480
Speaker 1: you realize that this was something you could do, that

702
00:40:33,560 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 1: you could help other people change their behavior? When did

703
00:40:37,320 --> 00:40:39,920
Speaker 1: When did that work? That coaching all of this stuff?

704
00:40:40,320 --> 00:40:44,000
Speaker 1: When did you start? Well, it's interesting because in a

705
00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 1: a or in a twelve step program, you learn that

706
00:40:46,760 --> 00:40:50,920
Speaker 1: right away. We start saying right away, like, help others,

707
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,359
Speaker 1: help others, help others. Nothing will keep you sober more

708
00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:58,200
Speaker 1: than helping others. So you're encouraged right away. You know,

709
00:40:58,360 --> 00:41:00,080
Speaker 1: if you're a week sober, there's a guy come and

710
00:41:00,120 --> 00:41:02,399
Speaker 1: who's a day sober. If you're a year sober. There's

711
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:05,560
Speaker 1: a guy who's six months sober. So we always have

712
00:41:05,680 --> 00:41:08,719
Speaker 1: the opportunity to be of help and service. So I

713
00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 1: learned that very early on, and at a year in

714
00:41:11,520 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: a A I started sponsoring people and I realized I

715
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:18,080
Speaker 1: loved it. I just loved doing it. And then you know, uh,

716
00:41:18,719 --> 00:41:22,640
Speaker 1: years go on and lots of long stories, but um,

717
00:41:22,680 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, I go back out, I use again, I

718
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:25,680
Speaker 1: come back, I get an a A but I get

719
00:41:25,719 --> 00:41:29,040
Speaker 1: wrapped up in kids and career and and all that stuff,

720
00:41:29,560 --> 00:41:33,439
Speaker 1: and you know, eventually found myself at how old would

721
00:41:33,440 --> 00:41:36,560
Speaker 1: I have been. I don't know, forty five forty four.

722
00:41:37,120 --> 00:41:40,920
Speaker 1: I had started a solar energy company that had started

723
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,240
Speaker 1: off with great promise and then the state of Ohio

724
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:47,880
Speaker 1: increasingly become just kept rolling back all the regulations that

725
00:41:47,920 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 1: it's so wisely passed, which just kept vaporizing my company.

726
00:41:52,400 --> 00:41:55,440
Speaker 1: And after about the third round of that, after losing

727
00:41:55,520 --> 00:41:59,120
Speaker 1: millions of dollars of great solar projects, I just said

728
00:41:59,120 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 1: I can't do this any or I gave up, and

729
00:42:01,920 --> 00:42:04,200
Speaker 1: I just got the idea to start the podcast. It

730
00:42:04,239 --> 00:42:06,000
Speaker 1: seems like it just sort of came to me, like

731
00:42:06,400 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: I could start a podcast about I could ask people

732
00:42:08,760 --> 00:42:11,319
Speaker 1: about that, and I could interview people whose books I'm

733
00:42:11,320 --> 00:42:13,879
Speaker 1: reading anyway, and I could ask my best friend Chris

734
00:42:13,960 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: because he's an audio guy, and we would spend more

735
00:42:16,000 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 1: time together and it sounds fun, and we started the

736
00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:22,680
Speaker 1: next week. Um wow. Yeah. It was that that sort

737
00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 1: of unplanned, unscripted, and then it kind of took off.

738
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:29,799
Speaker 1: I was like whoa. And so then a couple of

739
00:42:29,840 --> 00:42:32,160
Speaker 1: years into that, people start asking me like, do you

740
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:35,440
Speaker 1: ever do work with people? And I initially demurred, and

741
00:42:35,440 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: then I finally thought, well, you know, maybe okay, I

742
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 1: could try some coaching, you know, maybe I would do that.

743
00:42:40,640 --> 00:42:43,480
Speaker 1: And I feel like from the first session, I was like, oh,

744
00:42:43,520 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: this is like sponsoring people and a I've done this

745
00:42:46,239 --> 00:42:49,920
Speaker 1: hundreds of times for free, and so it just I

746
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:53,040
Speaker 1: just went like, I, you know, I feel like I

747
00:42:53,080 --> 00:42:54,879
Speaker 1: really know how to do this and I really love

748
00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:57,319
Speaker 1: to do it. So that's kind of how I arrived there.

749
00:42:57,320 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 1: But it goes back a long time, you know, kind

750
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:04,239
Speaker 1: of back to very early, you know, in recovery for me,

751
00:43:04,320 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 1: and and I just I think some people work with

752
00:43:07,280 --> 00:43:10,400
Speaker 1: other people in recovery because that's what you have to

753
00:43:10,440 --> 00:43:12,319
Speaker 1: do to stay sober. And I think some people love

754
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:14,799
Speaker 1: doing it, and I just always loved it. It just

755
00:43:14,800 --> 00:43:17,320
Speaker 1: sort of lit me up to like, talk to somebody else,

756
00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,320
Speaker 1: look at their life, their problems, help them see it differently,

757
00:43:21,719 --> 00:43:24,960
Speaker 1: give them some support and encouragement. I just always, you know,

758
00:43:25,000 --> 00:43:28,279
Speaker 1: that work always felt life given and meaningful to me.

759
00:43:29,120 --> 00:43:33,200
Speaker 1: And it reminds me of the work you talked about

760
00:43:33,239 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 1: doing from sixteen to eighteen. Totally. Yes, it's always the

761
00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:41,160
Speaker 1: thing you loved. Yeah, And what's interesting is at that

762
00:43:41,200 --> 00:43:46,120
Speaker 1: time I went from being really troubled and really lost. Two. Oh,

763
00:43:46,160 --> 00:43:48,880
Speaker 1: I help others. I have a purpose, I have a community,

764
00:43:48,920 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: I contribute. I don't feel lost anymore. And so yeah,

765
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:58,360
Speaker 1: for me, it's been very clear that that having purpose

766
00:43:58,440 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: and meaning and helping others is in integral to to

767
00:44:02,360 --> 00:44:08,319
Speaker 1: my well being mine too. Yeah. Absolutely. I wonder as

768
00:44:08,360 --> 00:44:11,560
Speaker 1: you talk about this and finding your way, you know,

769
00:44:12,160 --> 00:44:14,200
Speaker 1: whether it was the program you launched as a team,

770
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: or being a sponsor in a a or or you know,

771
00:44:17,200 --> 00:44:21,960
Speaker 1: getting into coaching in the podcast. I love that metaphor

772
00:44:22,000 --> 00:44:25,920
Speaker 1: you use that that you know puzzles are solvable. Is

773
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:29,600
Speaker 1: there you know a person or or a story or

774
00:44:29,640 --> 00:44:33,240
Speaker 1: a particular way that you were able to help someone

775
00:44:33,320 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: solve a puzzle that that stands out to you that

776
00:44:36,200 --> 00:44:38,480
Speaker 1: you might be able to share with us, obviously without

777
00:44:38,520 --> 00:44:43,240
Speaker 1: their personal details. It's interesting. My mind went to places

778
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:45,600
Speaker 1: with that. One is somebody I've been working with on

779
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:50,080
Speaker 1: their addiction journey recently, and it's been so rewarding to

780
00:44:50,200 --> 00:44:57,880
Speaker 1: see her emerge because she's so splendid, she's she's the

781
00:44:57,920 --> 00:45:01,239
Speaker 1: kind of person that everybody who meets her like, oh,

782
00:45:01,719 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: more of you for the world, and yet she can't

783
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: she can't see it. She could not see it, you know,

784
00:45:07,840 --> 00:45:10,920
Speaker 1: And and so she's been so that's been really rewarding.

785
00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:13,520
Speaker 1: But she's just one of them. But I do believe

786
00:45:13,560 --> 00:45:16,480
Speaker 1: she's the sort of person if she gets this and

787
00:45:16,560 --> 00:45:19,200
Speaker 1: stays with it, will help a ton of people because

788
00:45:19,200 --> 00:45:21,080
Speaker 1: she has a way with words, she has a way

789
00:45:21,080 --> 00:45:23,680
Speaker 1: with story, she has a way of connecting with people

790
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,719
Speaker 1: that I feel like she'll really do something. And then

791
00:45:26,760 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 1: the other one is really interesting because my mind went

792
00:45:29,080 --> 00:45:31,280
Speaker 1: to the opposite extreme, and it's a friend of mine

793
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,720
Speaker 1: who is in the California or No Florida prison system

794
00:45:35,760 --> 00:45:40,680
Speaker 1: and has been for plus years and he's still there,

795
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 1: and I wouldn't consider him a amazing redemption story. He's

796
00:45:45,560 --> 00:45:48,080
Speaker 1: been prisoned for twenty five years, and that's been really

797
00:45:48,120 --> 00:45:52,680
Speaker 1: hard for him. And yet I feel like I've remained

798
00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:56,520
Speaker 1: his friend and we've stayed close through all that, and

799
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,319
Speaker 1: we've had something to share with each other. And I

800
00:45:59,320 --> 00:46:01,520
Speaker 1: originally answered him in a a is where I knew

801
00:46:01,560 --> 00:46:04,080
Speaker 1: him and he was a heroin atic like me, and

802
00:46:04,200 --> 00:46:07,359
Speaker 1: things did not work out for him. Again, I don't

803
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 1: know of what he's been accused he did or didn't do.

804
00:46:10,280 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: He insists he didn't do any of it. I don't know.

805
00:46:13,719 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 1: There's no way to know. It's I don't even care.

806
00:46:15,840 --> 00:46:19,040
Speaker 1: It's not important. But for whatever reason, those are the

807
00:46:19,080 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: two that came to mind. He came to mind even

808
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:24,200
Speaker 1: though it's not this beautiful redemption story. And yet he's

809
00:46:24,239 --> 00:46:27,480
Speaker 1: somebody who's sober in prison. There's no reason to be

810
00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:30,920
Speaker 1: sober in prison, I mean, besides wanting to be sober.

811
00:46:31,000 --> 00:46:33,160
Speaker 1: And so he's still done that and he's found a

812
00:46:33,200 --> 00:46:35,960
Speaker 1: way to make his prison life as valuable as possible

813
00:46:36,000 --> 00:46:37,959
Speaker 1: and he'll get out in a few years. I hope

814
00:46:38,360 --> 00:46:40,759
Speaker 1: we're coming up on on a release date. So he

815
00:46:40,880 --> 00:46:43,040
Speaker 1: comes to mind, just because it's been a lot of

816
00:46:43,120 --> 00:46:47,279
Speaker 1: years of some sort of friendship, coaching, sponsorship. I don't

817
00:46:47,280 --> 00:46:49,520
Speaker 1: know that that it has felt important to me, and

818
00:46:49,520 --> 00:46:51,960
Speaker 1: I think it's really important to him for people who

819
00:46:52,040 --> 00:46:57,120
Speaker 1: are on a journey, and and his is an extreme example,

820
00:46:57,200 --> 00:47:01,239
Speaker 1: but also perhaps extreme is there word? Given that you know,

821
00:47:01,280 --> 00:47:03,600
Speaker 1: the United States and cars rates more people than any

822
00:47:03,640 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 1: other country on Earth by a multiplication of multiple factors. Um.

823
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:15,160
Speaker 1: But I think about the length of his stay thus

824
00:47:15,200 --> 00:47:19,240
Speaker 1: far in the car's role system. And I think about

825
00:47:19,320 --> 00:47:23,680
Speaker 1: how my friends who are sober talk about it being

826
00:47:23,719 --> 00:47:28,160
Speaker 1: a lifelong journey. You know, it is a thing that

827
00:47:29,040 --> 00:47:31,800
Speaker 1: doesn't end. You don't get sober and then you're done.

828
00:47:33,320 --> 00:47:35,600
Speaker 1: So for people who have to take one day at

829
00:47:35,600 --> 00:47:42,000
Speaker 1: a time, is there advice that you would share? You know? Again,

830
00:47:42,040 --> 00:47:44,279
Speaker 1: I'm just thinking about the folks who might be on

831
00:47:44,320 --> 00:47:46,719
Speaker 1: their commute, or or driving in their car or on

832
00:47:46,760 --> 00:47:50,520
Speaker 1: the train listening to this conversation, who wish they could

833
00:47:50,520 --> 00:47:53,800
Speaker 1: ask you a question about this? And and I think everyone,

834
00:47:53,880 --> 00:47:59,520
Speaker 1: whether it's something enormous um like a prison sentence or sobriety,

835
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:03,360
Speaker 1: or or something small like you mentioned trying to convince

836
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,799
Speaker 1: yourself to actually move your body every day, I fall

837
00:48:05,840 --> 00:48:09,239
Speaker 1: in that category, um that they might want to change.

838
00:48:10,239 --> 00:48:12,600
Speaker 1: What would be that the first piece of advice that

839
00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:16,239
Speaker 1: you would offer, Well, I think there's a couple of

840
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:18,640
Speaker 1: things in there. I mean, I think you were the

841
00:48:19,200 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 1: beginning of that was, you know, this this idea of

842
00:48:22,280 --> 00:48:25,600
Speaker 1: one day at a time, you know, And and the

843
00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,520
Speaker 1: first thing I would say to somebody who is if

844
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:31,759
Speaker 1: you're on the sobriety journey and you're relatively early into

845
00:48:31,800 --> 00:48:34,080
Speaker 1: your contemplating it, often we hear that and we're like, oh,

846
00:48:34,120 --> 00:48:35,759
Speaker 1: this is something you'll live with the rest of your life.

847
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,000
Speaker 1: And you're like, forget it. I can't do it because

848
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:42,560
Speaker 1: that feels like too much. Because for for the addict

849
00:48:42,640 --> 00:48:45,960
Speaker 1: or alcoholic, I can't think of anything worse than those

850
00:48:45,960 --> 00:48:48,400
Speaker 1: early days of recovery, because it feels to me it

851
00:48:48,480 --> 00:48:51,520
Speaker 1: felt like being torn apart, because one part of me

852
00:48:51,640 --> 00:48:54,360
Speaker 1: is so convinced I can't do this, I have to

853
00:48:54,440 --> 00:48:57,799
Speaker 1: stay sober for all these reasons, and the other part

854
00:48:57,840 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: of me is screaming go use and it just feels

855
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:05,920
Speaker 1: like this internal it's awful. So the first message I

856
00:49:05,920 --> 00:49:09,480
Speaker 1: would give is that that goes away for the vast

857
00:49:09,640 --> 00:49:12,560
Speaker 1: majority of people when I say I, you know, I

858
00:49:12,640 --> 00:49:15,200
Speaker 1: stay sober one day at a time. I don't think

859
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:20,160
Speaker 1: about drinking or using of the days I tell a

860
00:49:20,239 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: story this blows my mind. But about I guess it's

861
00:49:23,680 --> 00:49:27,919
Speaker 1: probably two years ago now. My mom fell and broke

862
00:49:27,960 --> 00:49:33,479
Speaker 1: her hip, and um was on painkillers, and she sent

863
00:49:33,600 --> 00:49:36,400
Speaker 1: me to go to the grocery for her the pharmacy

864
00:49:36,480 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 1: to pick up her oxy codeon and I went and

865
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,240
Speaker 1: did this. And what's remarkable about this story is one

866
00:49:45,239 --> 00:49:47,160
Speaker 1: that I was able to do it. I was able

867
00:49:47,200 --> 00:49:49,920
Speaker 1: to go get opiates deliver them to my mother that

868
00:49:49,960 --> 00:49:53,160
Speaker 1: I once would have robbed you for. You know, I

869
00:49:53,160 --> 00:49:55,120
Speaker 1: would have robbed you for what was in my bag

870
00:49:55,160 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: and I was delivering it to my mother. What's more

871
00:49:58,280 --> 00:50:00,680
Speaker 1: incredible is I didn't even think about it until about

872
00:50:00,719 --> 00:50:03,200
Speaker 1: two months into it, I went, wow, I'm carrying opiates

873
00:50:03,239 --> 00:50:10,080
Speaker 1: around like it. That problem vanished so completely. So that

874
00:50:10,360 --> 00:50:11,960
Speaker 1: is the first thing I would say is, yes, it's

875
00:50:12,000 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 1: one day at a time. We're all living one day

876
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:15,879
Speaker 1: at a time. We have to do our best to

877
00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 1: deal with what life gives us one day at a time.

878
00:50:18,600 --> 00:50:22,120
Speaker 1: But recovery does not have is not a It is

879
00:50:22,160 --> 00:50:24,520
Speaker 1: not a chore and done right. My belief is for

880
00:50:24,560 --> 00:50:29,719
Speaker 1: the vast majority of people, the problem disappears, which is incredible.

881
00:50:30,760 --> 00:50:33,319
Speaker 1: So I think that's just important to to sort of

882
00:50:33,360 --> 00:50:35,640
Speaker 1: note and to and to show like, yeah, I mean

883
00:50:35,680 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: we really can really change now. As far as practical

884
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,680
Speaker 1: advice for making change in our life, you know, I

885
00:50:44,680 --> 00:50:48,440
Speaker 1: think it depends on what it is, but moving away

886
00:50:48,480 --> 00:50:52,760
Speaker 1: from recovery for a moment and moving to more basic

887
00:50:52,840 --> 00:50:55,200
Speaker 1: things like I want to write a book, I want

888
00:50:55,239 --> 00:50:58,320
Speaker 1: to exercise more, I want to meditate every day, what

889
00:50:58,840 --> 00:51:02,279
Speaker 1: those sort of things. I think the there's a couple

890
00:51:02,320 --> 00:51:05,120
Speaker 1: of pieces of really practical advice we can start with,

891
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:08,720
Speaker 1: which is the first is just to be specific. Decide

892
00:51:08,760 --> 00:51:10,799
Speaker 1: what we're gonna do, when we're gonna do it, how

893
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:13,400
Speaker 1: we're going to do it. You know, the science is

894
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:17,480
Speaker 1: extraordinarily clear on this that when we go when we

895
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:19,960
Speaker 1: go from like I really should move my body more

896
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:21,480
Speaker 1: or I want to get in shape, when we go

897
00:51:21,600 --> 00:51:26,279
Speaker 1: from that to uh, Monday, Wednesday and Friday at nine am,

898
00:51:26,280 --> 00:51:29,279
Speaker 1: I am going to do the following program on my

899
00:51:29,360 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 1: peloton bike. That level of specificity is really important and

900
00:51:34,640 --> 00:51:38,239
Speaker 1: it really makes a big difference. So so that's that's

901
00:51:38,280 --> 00:51:41,560
Speaker 1: the first is to get very specific, break it down.

902
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:44,799
Speaker 1: If you're trying to do a project that's more creative.

903
00:51:45,120 --> 00:51:48,440
Speaker 1: Are you very clear on exactly what you're doing? You know, okay,

904
00:51:48,480 --> 00:51:52,520
Speaker 1: Wednesday at nine th what what exactly? What's the first

905
00:51:52,560 --> 00:51:57,680
Speaker 1: sentence I have to write? Because ambiguity is oftentimes the

906
00:51:57,719 --> 00:52:02,800
Speaker 1: mother of procrastination. When we're un hurton, we just procrastinate.

907
00:52:03,080 --> 00:52:05,319
Speaker 1: We just every other item in our to do list

908
00:52:05,360 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: looks better. So that's one very practical, it's kind of

909
00:52:08,840 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 1: you know. And then the second benefit of getting really

910
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:15,440
Speaker 1: specific is that we force ourselves to choice points, and

911
00:52:15,480 --> 00:52:18,440
Speaker 1: if those choice points, we can do a couple of things.

912
00:52:18,520 --> 00:52:20,560
Speaker 1: One is we can just turn all our attention to

913
00:52:20,680 --> 00:52:24,680
Speaker 1: just starting. So like if I'm having resistance one morning

914
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 1: to get in on the bike, I will be like, first,

915
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:30,080
Speaker 1: get on your bike clothes and your bike shoes. That's

916
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:33,480
Speaker 1: the first thing. Just do that. And I often can

917
00:52:33,520 --> 00:52:36,479
Speaker 1: do that. But if I think about doing an hour

918
00:52:36,560 --> 00:52:38,600
Speaker 1: long workout and I know how hard it's going to be,

919
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:40,520
Speaker 1: I'm like, are you kidding me? I can't do that?

920
00:52:42,239 --> 00:52:44,120
Speaker 1: And so you know, I think our brain does this

921
00:52:44,160 --> 00:52:46,359
Speaker 1: little calculation where it's like I'm sitting on the couch

922
00:52:46,400 --> 00:52:48,320
Speaker 1: and I feel like I have one unit of energy

923
00:52:48,719 --> 00:52:50,279
Speaker 1: and I need to go do this workout, and that

924
00:52:50,320 --> 00:52:53,200
Speaker 1: takes ten units of energy. I only have one. Forget it.

925
00:52:54,880 --> 00:52:58,000
Speaker 1: When I deconstructed to just put on your bike shoes,

926
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:00,319
Speaker 1: I'm like, that's one unit of energy. I've got unit

927
00:53:00,320 --> 00:53:04,160
Speaker 1: of energy. Great, I can do it. And we often

928
00:53:04,160 --> 00:53:07,040
Speaker 1: get motivation after we start. We think we get motivated

929
00:53:07,080 --> 00:53:09,520
Speaker 1: then we start, but often after we move a little

930
00:53:09,520 --> 00:53:13,759
Speaker 1: bit motivation comes along. So just getting unstuck. So now

931
00:53:13,800 --> 00:53:19,040
Speaker 1: I know what I'm doing, push myself to start. Oftentimes

932
00:53:19,040 --> 00:53:21,879
Speaker 1: that's just enough that just gets us off and going.

933
00:53:22,200 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: If not, then what we need to do is look

934
00:53:24,600 --> 00:53:29,439
Speaker 1: at what's happening at that moment of choice and what

935
00:53:29,480 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 1: am I feeling and thinking. So I often say behavior

936
00:53:32,920 --> 00:53:35,680
Speaker 1: change takes You've got to start with the very practical,

937
00:53:35,840 --> 00:53:38,080
Speaker 1: tactical What am I doing, when am I doing it?

938
00:53:38,120 --> 00:53:40,239
Speaker 1: How do I trick myself to get started, How do

939
00:53:40,280 --> 00:53:42,439
Speaker 1: I set up my environment to make it easy? All

940
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,359
Speaker 1: these things that we can do. If we do all

941
00:53:45,360 --> 00:53:48,799
Speaker 1: that and we're still stuck, then I would say it's

942
00:53:48,840 --> 00:53:51,759
Speaker 1: a failure of emotional regulation. And what I basically mean

943
00:53:51,800 --> 00:53:54,840
Speaker 1: by that is some feelings or thoughts come up that

944
00:53:54,960 --> 00:53:57,000
Speaker 1: we don't know how to work with and so we

945
00:53:57,080 --> 00:54:01,600
Speaker 1: turn away. So now we just if nothing, if we've

946
00:54:01,600 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: tried all that and it's not working, now we can

947
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:05,279
Speaker 1: zoom into that moment and say, Okay, what am I

948
00:54:05,400 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 1: saying to myself? What am I feeling? What's going on here?

949
00:54:09,840 --> 00:54:11,719
Speaker 1: You know? Oh, every time I think about writing, I

950
00:54:11,760 --> 00:54:14,560
Speaker 1: just think to myself like, I can't do it. You know,

951
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:18,560
Speaker 1: I'm not any good. So now I can work to

952
00:54:18,640 --> 00:54:21,200
Speaker 1: coach myself through that, and I can say to myself, well,

953
00:54:21,640 --> 00:54:24,279
Speaker 1: you know, we don't know if you're good or not yet.

954
00:54:24,960 --> 00:54:27,160
Speaker 1: If you don't do it, you'll never be good, you know,

955
00:54:27,560 --> 00:54:30,200
Speaker 1: So so let's try, you know. So we we talk

956
00:54:30,280 --> 00:54:32,960
Speaker 1: to ourselves, we support ourselves, we coach ourselves through it,

957
00:54:33,040 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: or we find somebody who can do that for us.

958
00:54:35,120 --> 00:54:37,799
Speaker 1: But that's what getting specific also does is allows us

959
00:54:37,840 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 1: to then target specifically what's our resistance about. It's all

960
00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:48,399
Speaker 1: of the understanding you've amassed for habit creation and curiosity

961
00:54:48,440 --> 00:54:53,319
Speaker 1: and kindness. Did that come together to lead you to

962
00:54:53,440 --> 00:54:58,520
Speaker 1: this spiritual habits program? I'm so curious about it? Yes,

963
00:54:58,680 --> 00:55:01,400
Speaker 1: I think so? Yeah, I mean I think spiritual habits

964
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:05,239
Speaker 1: to me is a program we've created, And yeah, I

965
00:55:05,280 --> 00:55:08,280
Speaker 1: think it brings together you know what I We've interviewed

966
00:55:08,320 --> 00:55:11,120
Speaker 1: over four hundred people at this point, and it brings together,

967
00:55:11,280 --> 00:55:12,920
Speaker 1: you know, the best of what I learned from all

968
00:55:12,960 --> 00:55:17,080
Speaker 1: those people, my experience of twenty five years in recovery

969
00:55:17,120 --> 00:55:21,000
Speaker 1: and everything that that's entailed. UM my own spiritual practice.

970
00:55:21,120 --> 00:55:23,960
Speaker 1: My training is a to be a certified spiritual director,

971
00:55:24,560 --> 00:55:27,680
Speaker 1: and just working with hundreds of people into kind of

972
00:55:27,719 --> 00:55:31,120
Speaker 1: to me, what I think are like some core practices

973
00:55:31,719 --> 00:55:36,680
Speaker 1: and core ways of really living our spiritual life. And

974
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:39,840
Speaker 1: spiritual life to me just means connecting to what matters,

975
00:55:41,360 --> 00:55:44,560
Speaker 1: you know, connecting to what matters to us. And so

976
00:55:45,719 --> 00:55:48,040
Speaker 1: the Spiritual Habits program is really trying to take what

977
00:55:48,080 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: I would consider timeless spiritual principles, although some people would

978
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 1: argue that you could call them psychological principles. You know,

979
00:55:54,680 --> 00:55:56,480
Speaker 1: look at it one way, it looks this way, look

980
00:55:56,480 --> 00:55:58,520
Speaker 1: at it another way, it looks that way, right, timeless

981
00:55:58,520 --> 00:56:01,360
Speaker 1: principles that most everybody agree with, like yes, I should

982
00:56:01,360 --> 00:56:06,000
Speaker 1: be more present, and then bringing that along with what

983
00:56:06,040 --> 00:56:08,880
Speaker 1: we know about behavior change and the science of behavior

984
00:56:09,000 --> 00:56:11,239
Speaker 1: change for how do we actually do it? So how

985
00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:14,239
Speaker 1: do we go from going I do think mindfulness is

986
00:56:14,280 --> 00:56:18,720
Speaker 1: good to actually being more mindful, and I think that's

987
00:56:18,880 --> 00:56:22,400
Speaker 1: where in the spiritual landscape it's out there. I think

988
00:56:22,440 --> 00:56:25,440
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people teaching you how as in

989
00:56:25,560 --> 00:56:30,000
Speaker 1: like here's the mindsets to have, here's the here's how

990
00:56:30,040 --> 00:56:32,640
Speaker 1: to meditate. But but then where most people are falling

991
00:56:32,680 --> 00:56:34,279
Speaker 1: off is like, well, I know what I should do,

992
00:56:34,360 --> 00:56:37,640
Speaker 1: but I'm not doing it. So this program is intended

993
00:56:37,680 --> 00:56:40,600
Speaker 1: to sort of bring all of that together. And where

994
00:56:40,600 --> 00:56:42,960
Speaker 1: do how long is it? Where do people find it?

995
00:56:43,239 --> 00:56:46,959
Speaker 1: Can you give us some some of the insider info? Yeah,

996
00:56:47,000 --> 00:56:49,160
Speaker 1: I mean if you go to to our website when

997
00:56:49,160 --> 00:56:51,239
Speaker 1: you feed dot net. There's two ways to do the

998
00:56:51,280 --> 00:56:53,719
Speaker 1: Spiritual Habits program. One is you can work with me

999
00:56:53,800 --> 00:56:56,520
Speaker 1: one on one and we go through the whole program.

1000
00:56:56,560 --> 00:56:59,360
Speaker 1: It's like a very close one on one coaching relationship.

1001
00:56:59,440 --> 00:57:01,239
Speaker 1: And then a see year we run it as a

1002
00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:04,520
Speaker 1: group program. Um we're in the midst of running it

1003
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:08,319
Speaker 1: right now with our sort of summer group, will run

1004
00:57:08,320 --> 00:57:10,919
Speaker 1: it again in the fall, and so both are great

1005
00:57:10,920 --> 00:57:12,839
Speaker 1: ways to do it. I think there are benefits to both.

1006
00:57:12,920 --> 00:57:15,319
Speaker 1: Doing one on one with me obviously a lot of

1007
00:57:15,360 --> 00:57:19,120
Speaker 1: personal attention and care, and the group program is beautiful

1008
00:57:19,160 --> 00:57:22,520
Speaker 1: because you meet people, and we structure the program in

1009
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: a way that we're really trying to help people find

1010
00:57:26,240 --> 00:57:30,120
Speaker 1: ongoing friends, people who support them in their in their journey.

1011
00:57:30,160 --> 00:57:32,440
Speaker 1: So they're both beautiful. But you can find out both

1012
00:57:32,560 --> 00:57:35,200
Speaker 1: at our website, which is when you feed dot net,

1013
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:37,720
Speaker 1: you know, get on the mailing list or whatever. But

1014
00:57:37,800 --> 00:57:39,880
Speaker 1: those are those are the ways that to engage with it.

1015
00:57:41,320 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: And when you talk about the program, you you mentioned

1016
00:57:43,880 --> 00:57:50,640
Speaker 1: that you're certified as spiritual director and an interfaith spiritual director.

1017
00:57:51,120 --> 00:57:54,720
Speaker 1: What does that mean? It's a it's a great question.

1018
00:57:55,320 --> 00:57:56,720
Speaker 1: I'm not sure I can you know, I think I

1019
00:57:56,720 --> 00:58:01,280
Speaker 1: can answer it. Spiritual direction is a a term that

1020
00:58:01,640 --> 00:58:06,360
Speaker 1: came out of more of the modern church, actually comes

1021
00:58:06,360 --> 00:58:08,160
Speaker 1: out of the ancient church in a lot of ways,

1022
00:58:08,520 --> 00:58:12,120
Speaker 1: but it shows up in all traditions and they're people

1023
00:58:12,200 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 1: use different terms for it. People will use the term

1024
00:58:14,160 --> 00:58:18,400
Speaker 1: spiritual director, people will use the term spiritual supervisor. Other

1025
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:24,400
Speaker 1: people will use the term spiritual companion, spiritual friend. Um.

1026
00:58:24,440 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: I think a a sponsorship provides a model for it.

1027
00:58:26,960 --> 00:58:29,720
Speaker 1: Right in a sponsorship, your sponsor is just somebody who's

1028
00:58:29,760 --> 00:58:33,240
Speaker 1: a little bit further down that particular journey you want

1029
00:58:33,240 --> 00:58:36,240
Speaker 1: to be on than you are knows a little bit

1030
00:58:36,240 --> 00:58:39,840
Speaker 1: of the landscape. So spiritual directors we are taught to

1031
00:58:40,640 --> 00:58:45,080
Speaker 1: help people hone in on what's important in their life,

1032
00:58:45,120 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 1: what's their spiritual life about, what do their practices that

1033
00:58:47,920 --> 00:58:50,840
Speaker 1: look like, what matters to them, what might their blocks be,

1034
00:58:51,720 --> 00:58:55,240
Speaker 1: what's showing up for them in their in their life

1035
00:58:55,640 --> 00:59:00,440
Speaker 1: related to spiritual matters. But again, I define spirito more

1036
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,320
Speaker 1: broadly than maybe a lot of people would, because I

1037
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:05,440
Speaker 1: think spirituality is about like, what really matters to us,

1038
00:59:06,240 --> 00:59:08,720
Speaker 1: what feels important, and how do we connect to that

1039
00:59:08,760 --> 00:59:12,200
Speaker 1: and live from that. So coming from the background that

1040
00:59:12,240 --> 00:59:16,480
Speaker 1: you do and having been through training programs and certification

1041
00:59:16,560 --> 00:59:20,040
Speaker 1: and all of it, in your opinion, what do you

1042
00:59:20,160 --> 00:59:26,960
Speaker 1: think is the relationship between one's spiritual and personal life?

1043
00:59:27,040 --> 00:59:29,360
Speaker 1: Do you believe they are the same. Do you believe

1044
00:59:29,400 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 1: they're closely related and intertwined? How how would you define

1045
00:59:34,480 --> 00:59:39,120
Speaker 1: those things. My primary spiritual practice these days is Zen Buddhism,

1046
00:59:39,200 --> 00:59:42,080
Speaker 1: and in Zen we would say they are absolutely one

1047
00:59:42,080 --> 00:59:45,480
Speaker 1: and the same. Your spiritual life is every aspect of

1048
00:59:45,480 --> 00:59:48,640
Speaker 1: your life. There is no separation between these things. But

1049
00:59:48,960 --> 00:59:51,720
Speaker 1: Zen would also say there's emptiness and form and and

1050
00:59:51,960 --> 00:59:53,960
Speaker 1: it's a little bit of a complicated question. In the

1051
00:59:54,000 --> 00:59:57,760
Speaker 1: spiritual direction world, they often say like, this is psychology,

1052
00:59:57,840 --> 01:00:01,040
Speaker 1: this is spiritual direction, and they they stand up these

1053
01:00:01,040 --> 01:00:03,720
Speaker 1: sort of straw men and they're like, spiritual direction is

1054
01:00:03,760 --> 01:00:07,800
Speaker 1: about you and God, your relationship with God, and psychology

1055
01:00:07,840 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 1: is all about you and your relationship with your mother.

1056
01:00:11,120 --> 01:00:14,440
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, that's that's clever. The reality is, for

1057
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:16,960
Speaker 1: most of us, it's just things are never that clean.

1058
01:00:18,280 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: Things are never that clean. You know, our psychological questions

1059
01:00:22,160 --> 01:00:25,920
Speaker 1: are our spiritual questions, our relationship challenges. That all melds

1060
01:00:25,960 --> 01:00:30,640
Speaker 1: into one messy soup. And so what do you What

1061
01:00:30,720 --> 01:00:33,080
Speaker 1: does a person need? What's the right thing for them

1062
01:00:33,080 --> 01:00:35,480
Speaker 1: at the time. There's a lot of different ways to

1063
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 1: look at it, you know, I mean I get into

1064
01:00:37,760 --> 01:00:41,320
Speaker 1: this with coach, with coaching work versus therapy, what's the difference?

1065
01:00:41,360 --> 01:00:44,520
Speaker 1: You know, there's a lot of crossover. But I think

1066
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:48,680
Speaker 1: if you if you have trauma, right, traumas something that

1067
01:00:48,720 --> 01:00:53,000
Speaker 1: you're largely at least gonna start in a very psychological

1068
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:55,800
Speaker 1: therapist meeting, there's a lot of there's a lot of

1069
01:00:56,240 --> 01:00:59,160
Speaker 1: benefit there. Right, we're really looking back at what happened

1070
01:00:59,600 --> 01:01:04,080
Speaker 1: and how did that affect you spiritual direction and coaching.

1071
01:01:04,120 --> 01:01:05,920
Speaker 1: On the other hand, we're we're going to be more

1072
01:01:06,520 --> 01:01:11,320
Speaker 1: talking about your your experience of the present moment and

1073
01:01:11,440 --> 01:01:13,480
Speaker 1: how do we work with whatever comes up and you

1074
01:01:13,600 --> 01:01:17,640
Speaker 1: moving forward. But even that, as I say it, I'm like, well,

1075
01:01:17,640 --> 01:01:19,680
Speaker 1: a lot of spiritual direction works some a lot of

1076
01:01:19,680 --> 01:01:21,680
Speaker 1: it with people I do is people who have been

1077
01:01:22,320 --> 01:01:25,440
Speaker 1: really badly burned by the church in different ways, and

1078
01:01:25,480 --> 01:01:29,439
Speaker 1: the whole idea is muddy and clouded and bad for them.

1079
01:01:29,720 --> 01:01:32,080
Speaker 1: So there is unpacking of that. So, like I say,

1080
01:01:32,160 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 1: people try and set these things apart, and there are

1081
01:01:35,400 --> 01:01:38,720
Speaker 1: times that it's worth setting them apart. But in the reality,

1082
01:01:38,800 --> 01:01:42,479
Speaker 1: I don't think we can separate a good spiritual life

1083
01:01:42,480 --> 01:01:44,960
Speaker 1: from our personal life, from our work life, from it.

1084
01:01:44,960 --> 01:01:50,400
Speaker 1: It's all. It's all connected. You talk so beautifully about

1085
01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,439
Speaker 1: that in a variety of different places, about the interconnection

1086
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,640
Speaker 1: of everything. When you start to see that, you start

1087
01:01:56,640 --> 01:01:58,960
Speaker 1: to realize, like, well, yeah, I can't really set these

1088
01:01:59,000 --> 01:02:02,920
Speaker 1: things don't separate out cleanly. If I make divisions, that

1089
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:06,880
Speaker 1: can be helpful sometimes for certain things, but really they're

1090
01:02:06,880 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 1: not separate. And I think for me, some of the

1091
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:16,280
Speaker 1: most transformative experiences have not only been in learning how

1092
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:24,320
Speaker 1: interconnected everything is. But in giving myself the permission to

1093
01:02:24,720 --> 01:02:31,640
Speaker 1: have simultaneous experiences, to find moments of joy while grieving,

1094
01:02:32,480 --> 01:02:39,080
Speaker 1: to be inspired, and also a little suspect to like

1095
01:02:39,720 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: we're we're told that you'll have off feeling, and I

1096
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:48,320
Speaker 1: don't believe that that's true. You know, I can feel

1097
01:02:49,240 --> 01:02:54,240
Speaker 1: confident and supremely terrified at the same time. And the

1098
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,840
Speaker 1: more I've given myself space to hold multiple things true

1099
01:02:58,120 --> 01:03:04,400
Speaker 1: at once, uh, the more grounded I feel as a

1100
01:03:04,440 --> 01:03:08,880
Speaker 1: person one in our spiritual habits. Course, we just the

1101
01:03:08,960 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 1: lesson I just gave yesterday was I call it the

1102
01:03:11,600 --> 01:03:14,080
Speaker 1: middle way. It's about the middle way. And one way

1103
01:03:14,120 --> 01:03:15,920
Speaker 1: of thinking of the middle way as I split the

1104
01:03:16,240 --> 01:03:18,560
Speaker 1: split the difference right, But another way of thinking about

1105
01:03:18,600 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 1: the middle way as I hold the opposites, you know,

1106
01:03:21,520 --> 01:03:24,240
Speaker 1: and so one very like an example of a practical

1107
01:03:24,280 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 1: spiritual habit is to look for all the times in

1108
01:03:27,280 --> 01:03:30,680
Speaker 1: your life that you're using the word or or but

1109
01:03:31,480 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 1: and just put an end in m. You know, I

1110
01:03:36,640 --> 01:03:38,840
Speaker 1: do some really great things in life, and I do

1111
01:03:38,880 --> 01:03:41,479
Speaker 1: a couple of things I don't feel great about. Both

1112
01:03:41,520 --> 01:03:45,880
Speaker 1: those things are true. You know, my work life is

1113
01:03:46,000 --> 01:03:49,840
Speaker 1: awesome and my relationship is not going as well as

1114
01:03:49,840 --> 01:03:53,200
Speaker 1: I would like, like we can have, you know, I feel,

1115
01:03:53,280 --> 01:03:56,400
Speaker 1: like you said, confident and terrified. When we learned to

1116
01:03:56,480 --> 01:03:59,800
Speaker 1: hold these multiple things, I think we start to better

1117
01:04:00,000 --> 01:04:04,920
Speaker 1: approximate the human condition, you know. And it's funny. It

1118
01:04:04,960 --> 01:04:06,680
Speaker 1: just leads us almost all the way back to the

1119
01:04:07,120 --> 01:04:10,040
Speaker 1: very early where we talked about like what we give

1120
01:04:10,080 --> 01:04:13,720
Speaker 1: our children, and I think that lesson that we don't

1121
01:04:13,800 --> 01:04:19,800
Speaker 1: give children is in an emotional nuance. I didn't have

1122
01:04:19,880 --> 01:04:22,400
Speaker 1: that as an eighteen year old. I was either, you know,

1123
01:04:22,720 --> 01:04:24,840
Speaker 1: my best friend's dating my girlfriend. The only thing I

1124
01:04:24,920 --> 01:04:28,560
Speaker 1: know to do is be completely devastated. But what else

1125
01:04:28,680 --> 01:04:32,600
Speaker 1: is there? Yeah there's that, But what else is there?

1126
01:04:32,920 --> 01:04:35,560
Speaker 1: I didn't. I didn't know, nobody could, Nobody taught me

1127
01:04:35,600 --> 01:04:38,160
Speaker 1: how to look for Well, yeah that's really bad, but

1128
01:04:38,280 --> 01:04:40,120
Speaker 1: look at all these other really good things that are

1129
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:42,240
Speaker 1: still happening in your life. I feel like if I

1130
01:04:42,240 --> 01:04:45,400
Speaker 1: could have had some of that, I might not have

1131
01:04:45,440 --> 01:04:49,120
Speaker 1: had to self destruct. In the same way, A nuance

1132
01:04:49,240 --> 01:04:54,960
Speaker 1: is something that I love and crave, much like critical thinking,

1133
01:04:55,760 --> 01:05:01,960
Speaker 1: and I feel afraid at the a parent or seeming

1134
01:05:02,080 --> 01:05:05,560
Speaker 1: way that we as a society appear to be entering

1135
01:05:05,640 --> 01:05:10,200
Speaker 1: this phase where we can't understand nuance anymore. You know,

1136
01:05:10,760 --> 01:05:14,560
Speaker 1: it's it frightens me, and so I'm very grateful to

1137
01:05:15,920 --> 01:05:18,640
Speaker 1: all of the people holding space for the both and

1138
01:05:19,360 --> 01:05:23,080
Speaker 1: you included. You know, I think I'm not alone there.

1139
01:05:23,120 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: There's a reason that the one you feed affects your

1140
01:05:26,200 --> 01:05:29,680
Speaker 1: audience so profoundly. You know, you you mentioned you've done

1141
01:05:29,880 --> 01:05:33,800
Speaker 1: over four hundred interviews. Now, I mean, what a what

1142
01:05:33,920 --> 01:05:38,080
Speaker 1: an incredible experience. Are there any for you know, listeners

1143
01:05:38,080 --> 01:05:41,640
Speaker 1: of my podcast who might be new listeners of yours?

1144
01:05:41,680 --> 01:05:43,960
Speaker 1: Are there are there any episodes you would point to

1145
01:05:44,480 --> 01:05:48,000
Speaker 1: and say, listen to these three first? These are three

1146
01:05:48,080 --> 01:05:52,240
Speaker 1: that I'm deeply proud of. M I am so bad

1147
01:05:52,280 --> 01:05:54,640
Speaker 1: at answering that question. I feel like I should really

1148
01:05:55,160 --> 01:05:57,960
Speaker 1: should know the answer to that. And you know, if

1149
01:05:58,040 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 1: I had a marketing person, they'd be like, you have

1150
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:02,600
Speaker 1: got know the answer to that question. I never can

1151
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:04,840
Speaker 1: do it either. So if you don't want to answer it,

1152
01:06:04,880 --> 01:06:08,880
Speaker 1: you don't have to. Well, obviously, for listeners of your podcast,

1153
01:06:08,960 --> 01:06:12,040
Speaker 1: they could start by listening to, you know, the interview

1154
01:06:12,040 --> 01:06:14,600
Speaker 1: with you, because we we just released it and it's

1155
01:06:14,640 --> 01:06:18,120
Speaker 1: a it's a great conversation. Um you know, we've had

1156
01:06:18,160 --> 01:06:22,240
Speaker 1: a number of interviews over the last year that have

1157
01:06:22,400 --> 01:06:26,960
Speaker 1: been really formative for me, and interviewing people like rest Momentican,

1158
01:06:27,360 --> 01:06:31,520
Speaker 1: Ibram X, Kendy other people about the racial issues we're facing,

1159
01:06:31,560 --> 01:06:34,840
Speaker 1: you know, and me as a fifty year old white

1160
01:06:34,880 --> 01:06:37,760
Speaker 1: man trying to reckon with that and understand it as

1161
01:06:37,800 --> 01:06:39,919
Speaker 1: best I can, you know. So I feel like those

1162
01:06:39,920 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 1: are if that's your thing. We did one not too

1163
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:45,640
Speaker 1: long ago with a guy named Scott stabil It's called

1164
01:06:45,960 --> 01:06:48,720
Speaker 1: practicing Self Love with Scott Stabile, and he is just

1165
01:06:48,840 --> 01:06:52,200
Speaker 1: a warm, generous, wonderful man. I don't think you could

1166
01:06:52,200 --> 01:06:55,080
Speaker 1: ever go wrong listening to him. And then we did

1167
01:06:55,120 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 1: another one with a guy named Rutger Bergman recently. He's

1168
01:06:58,200 --> 01:07:01,880
Speaker 1: he's a hopeful person about the state of things, and

1169
01:07:02,080 --> 01:07:04,920
Speaker 1: I think I like you. I think there's a lot

1170
01:07:05,000 --> 01:07:08,880
Speaker 1: of things that really concerned me, worry me, make me frightened,

1171
01:07:09,400 --> 01:07:12,560
Speaker 1: and holding the opposites. There's lots of ways that the

1172
01:07:12,640 --> 01:07:15,720
Speaker 1: human condition is getting better for lots and lots of people,

1173
01:07:16,000 --> 01:07:17,640
Speaker 1: and I feel like we have to hold both these

1174
01:07:17,680 --> 01:07:20,560
Speaker 1: and and we primarily get served the diet of everything

1175
01:07:20,600 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 1: that's wrong, and I think it's sometimes helpful for our

1176
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:27,520
Speaker 1: own mental well being and our ability to go on

1177
01:07:27,880 --> 01:07:30,560
Speaker 1: helping the world and serving the world. To get a

1178
01:07:30,600 --> 01:07:33,720
Speaker 1: little diet of and what's what's working, what's happened, what

1179
01:07:33,840 --> 01:07:36,880
Speaker 1: progress have we made, because because we need that to

1180
01:07:36,920 --> 01:07:39,440
Speaker 1: go on, you know, um, and I think he's he's

1181
01:07:39,480 --> 01:07:41,680
Speaker 1: an eloquent spokesman for that. So those are a few

1182
01:07:41,680 --> 01:07:44,000
Speaker 1: of the recent ones that I think are are good.

1183
01:07:44,040 --> 01:07:47,360
Speaker 1: But I learned long ago that we have four of

1184
01:07:47,440 --> 01:07:50,760
Speaker 1: us that that participate in getting an episode fully out

1185
01:07:50,800 --> 01:07:53,680
Speaker 1: and done, and we can be like one of us

1186
01:07:53,720 --> 01:07:55,920
Speaker 1: can be like I thought it was okay. Another one

1187
01:07:55,920 --> 01:07:57,400
Speaker 1: could be like this is one of the best ones ever.

1188
01:07:57,440 --> 01:07:59,880
Speaker 1: Another person would be like I didn't even think it

1189
01:07:59,880 --> 01:08:02,480
Speaker 1: was good. So even amongst the four of us that

1190
01:08:02,520 --> 01:08:05,320
Speaker 1: are closest to it, we can't agree on what are

1191
01:08:05,320 --> 01:08:07,480
Speaker 1: the best ones. So I think it's what what speaks

1192
01:08:07,520 --> 01:08:10,640
Speaker 1: to people where they're at. You know, It's like some

1193
01:08:10,720 --> 01:08:13,320
Speaker 1: days Bob Dylan's great. In other days you want, you know,

1194
01:08:14,360 --> 01:08:19,080
Speaker 1: you want something else totally totally, and I love that.

1195
01:08:19,160 --> 01:08:20,920
Speaker 1: I think it's one of the great things about this

1196
01:08:21,040 --> 01:08:24,960
Speaker 1: medium is it enables us to open these spaces for

1197
01:08:25,040 --> 01:08:27,840
Speaker 1: so many people to get exactly the kinds of fulfillment

1198
01:08:27,880 --> 01:08:30,920
Speaker 1: that they're looking for to be able to explore curiosity.

1199
01:08:31,040 --> 01:08:33,960
Speaker 1: And what a cool time too. As you said, this

1200
01:08:34,000 --> 01:08:36,599
Speaker 1: is one of the great parts about being alive today

1201
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,880
Speaker 1: is the whole ability to do something like this where

1202
01:08:39,920 --> 01:08:42,160
Speaker 1: you and I can sit on zoom and look at

1203
01:08:42,160 --> 01:08:45,320
Speaker 1: each other while you're across the country and we can

1204
01:08:45,360 --> 01:08:48,200
Speaker 1: have this beautiful conversation. You know, we couldn't have done

1205
01:08:48,200 --> 01:08:52,200
Speaker 1: this ten years ago. Yeah. Yeah. And I the other

1206
01:08:52,320 --> 01:08:54,760
Speaker 1: inspiring thing I think about all this is that I

1207
01:08:54,800 --> 01:08:59,000
Speaker 1: do think technology, in some ways though disconnecting us, helps

1208
01:08:59,080 --> 01:09:02,640
Speaker 1: people who can't find connections sometimes find it. You know,

1209
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:05,200
Speaker 1: We've got a view of the world when we were

1210
01:09:05,200 --> 01:09:07,920
Speaker 1: all these small communities that like life was really good.

1211
01:09:07,960 --> 01:09:09,840
Speaker 1: It was good if you fit in that community, but

1212
01:09:09,880 --> 01:09:13,600
Speaker 1: if you didn't it was miserable. And now if you

1213
01:09:13,640 --> 01:09:17,840
Speaker 1: don't fit, you can find your people somewhere. I think

1214
01:09:17,880 --> 01:09:21,320
Speaker 1: that's one of the coolest things is that people are

1215
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:28,400
Speaker 1: able to create new kinds of villages. M H. What

1216
01:09:28,479 --> 01:09:30,719
Speaker 1: do you think you know when we talk about holding

1217
01:09:30,720 --> 01:09:33,760
Speaker 1: that space, the both and the things we need to

1218
01:09:33,760 --> 01:09:36,679
Speaker 1: do work on as a society and and the places

1219
01:09:36,720 --> 01:09:42,320
Speaker 1: where we are making wonderful advancements, whether they be communities

1220
01:09:42,400 --> 01:09:47,120
Speaker 1: enabled by tech or life saving medical treatments like vaccines.

1221
01:09:48,280 --> 01:09:52,799
Speaker 1: What are the kinds of changes you hope to see

1222
01:09:53,520 --> 01:09:57,000
Speaker 1: in the country and and what do you think some

1223
01:09:57,120 --> 01:10:02,120
Speaker 1: of our societal responses this can be? Because it strikes

1224
01:10:02,160 --> 01:10:06,719
Speaker 1: me that you are a person who knows better than most.

1225
01:10:06,760 --> 01:10:10,799
Speaker 1: I would wager whether or not you might pay yourself

1226
01:10:10,800 --> 01:10:14,240
Speaker 1: the same compliment. I'll do it for you who who

1227
01:10:14,360 --> 01:10:18,120
Speaker 1: really knows what people need and how people can heal?

1228
01:10:18,960 --> 01:10:23,360
Speaker 1: So I wonder, as you look at this complex landscape,

1229
01:10:24,400 --> 01:10:26,200
Speaker 1: what what do you what do you hope is coming

1230
01:10:26,240 --> 01:10:28,000
Speaker 1: for us? Or what do you hope we can do,

1231
01:10:28,240 --> 01:10:30,760
Speaker 1: you know, as a society for each other. That is

1232
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:34,040
Speaker 1: such a big question and one that that I is

1233
01:10:34,200 --> 01:10:36,519
Speaker 1: very easy to be overwhelmed with. And I think about

1234
01:10:36,600 --> 01:10:39,880
Speaker 1: something that you said, which was you don't have to

1235
01:10:39,960 --> 01:10:42,040
Speaker 1: I'm not going to get it right. But it was basically,

1236
01:10:42,840 --> 01:10:45,439
Speaker 1: you don't have to be in on everything, but you

1237
01:10:45,479 --> 01:10:49,240
Speaker 1: have to be all in on something right. And so

1238
01:10:49,320 --> 01:10:52,760
Speaker 1: if I look at the number of issues that beset us,

1239
01:10:52,760 --> 01:10:57,600
Speaker 1: they're overwhelming. I've chosen to focus my efforts and what

1240
01:10:57,680 --> 01:11:04,160
Speaker 1: I think I'm good at on healing individuals largely. It's

1241
01:11:04,160 --> 01:11:07,800
Speaker 1: interesting my son is a twenty three year old activist

1242
01:11:08,320 --> 01:11:11,320
Speaker 1: and has all the energy and fire and all out

1243
01:11:11,320 --> 01:11:14,240
Speaker 1: of a of a twenty three year old, and we

1244
01:11:14,280 --> 01:11:17,559
Speaker 1: believe the same things. But he's focused on structures and

1245
01:11:17,640 --> 01:11:21,519
Speaker 1: systems and I'm much more like working on a person.

1246
01:11:21,920 --> 01:11:24,200
Speaker 1: But I realized, I think we're both interested in how

1247
01:11:24,200 --> 01:11:27,640
Speaker 1: do we relieve suffering? That's what really matters. So I

1248
01:11:27,760 --> 01:11:31,400
Speaker 1: come at it from more of an individual perspective, although

1249
01:11:31,600 --> 01:11:34,599
Speaker 1: I think the individual is the collective. I think these

1250
01:11:34,600 --> 01:11:37,000
Speaker 1: things go hand in hand. As I said, like my

1251
01:11:37,120 --> 01:11:40,799
Speaker 1: opportunities for recovery, I had opportunities that other people didn't,

1252
01:11:40,880 --> 01:11:43,679
Speaker 1: and so you know, but I think we are facing

1253
01:11:43,720 --> 01:11:45,920
Speaker 1: as as we look at the opioid crisis, as we

1254
01:11:45,960 --> 01:11:47,880
Speaker 1: look at what we're coming out of COVID, and we're

1255
01:11:47,880 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 1: looking at like, okay, mental health seems to be getting worse.

1256
01:11:52,479 --> 01:11:57,759
Speaker 1: We've got to find some way to get people more help.

1257
01:11:58,600 --> 01:12:02,720
Speaker 1: M I don't know what that looks like exactly, Like

1258
01:12:02,760 --> 01:12:05,880
Speaker 1: I do coaching work with people, and that coaching work

1259
01:12:05,960 --> 01:12:08,720
Speaker 1: is only available to people who make user I mean, like,

1260
01:12:08,800 --> 01:12:10,559
Speaker 1: you know, in order for me to sustain a living,

1261
01:12:10,720 --> 01:12:13,760
Speaker 1: right I'm not affordable to everybody. So we work to

1262
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,000
Speaker 1: have things like group programs. We work to give the

1263
01:12:16,000 --> 01:12:18,760
Speaker 1: podcast away for free. You know, We're always looking for

1264
01:12:18,840 --> 01:12:22,439
Speaker 1: ways to offer things at at at multiple levels. But

1265
01:12:22,600 --> 01:12:25,320
Speaker 1: I do think we haven't figured out how to get

1266
01:12:25,360 --> 01:12:28,759
Speaker 1: mental health to people at scale. Places like talk Space

1267
01:12:29,080 --> 01:12:31,759
Speaker 1: and Better Help. I mean talk Space is a sponsor

1268
01:12:31,840 --> 01:12:36,200
Speaker 1: on our show, and there's problems with their model. You know,

1269
01:12:36,640 --> 01:12:39,719
Speaker 1: it it up. It gives more people access to therapy,

1270
01:12:41,200 --> 01:12:46,200
Speaker 1: but it doesn't support therapists very well. So you're like, oh, well, okay, jeezus,

1271
01:12:46,280 --> 01:12:48,360
Speaker 1: we all right, that got a little bit better. But that,

1272
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:51,760
Speaker 1: you know, And so I think these things are are tricky.

1273
01:12:51,800 --> 01:12:54,679
Speaker 1: What I'm really interested in, and what we've been trying

1274
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,280
Speaker 1: to figure out all along, is how do we build

1275
01:12:57,400 --> 01:13:02,640
Speaker 1: communities that support each other. A A is a marvelous

1276
01:13:03,600 --> 01:13:07,760
Speaker 1: institution in a lot of ways. Twelve Step, I mean

1277
01:13:07,760 --> 01:13:11,920
Speaker 1: they the twelve Step world revolutionized things, and millions and

1278
01:13:12,040 --> 01:13:14,320
Speaker 1: millions of people are sober that would not have been

1279
01:13:14,920 --> 01:13:17,240
Speaker 1: if it were not for that, And there's plenty of

1280
01:13:17,280 --> 01:13:22,200
Speaker 1: problems with it. It's not for everybody. And so I'm

1281
01:13:22,240 --> 01:13:25,920
Speaker 1: interested in my little corner of the world of how

1282
01:13:25,960 --> 01:13:29,200
Speaker 1: do I build communities of people that can support each

1283
01:13:29,200 --> 01:13:31,519
Speaker 1: other that can afford to do it. So the Spiritual

1284
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,800
Speaker 1: Habits Group program, when people do that, they get matched

1285
01:13:34,880 --> 01:13:37,639
Speaker 1: up with a small group of six other people, and

1286
01:13:38,160 --> 01:13:41,800
Speaker 1: that group is there's if they want it ongoing. Some

1287
01:13:41,880 --> 01:13:44,519
Speaker 1: of those groups still meet year year and a two

1288
01:13:44,600 --> 01:13:48,479
Speaker 1: years later. They've become a beautiful source of support for

1289
01:13:48,520 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 1: each other. So I'm interested in how do we do that?

1290
01:13:51,439 --> 01:13:55,040
Speaker 1: What are the ways that like minded people can support

1291
01:13:55,080 --> 01:13:57,920
Speaker 1: and care about each other? And then the other problem

1292
01:13:57,920 --> 01:14:02,519
Speaker 1: I'm really interested in figure out is we are so busy,

1293
01:14:03,240 --> 01:14:07,280
Speaker 1: we are so fragmented, we are so distracted, and it's challenging.

1294
01:14:07,360 --> 01:14:10,880
Speaker 1: It makes emotional and mental well being really difficult. And

1295
01:14:10,920 --> 01:14:13,120
Speaker 1: I don't know what the way back for that is. Again,

1296
01:14:13,320 --> 01:14:17,040
Speaker 1: so many of these things become questions of privilege and advantage.

1297
01:14:17,520 --> 01:14:19,600
Speaker 1: Maybe I can afford to say, well, I'm going to

1298
01:14:19,640 --> 01:14:22,080
Speaker 1: go in a weeklong silent retreat, but lots of for

1299
01:14:22,160 --> 01:14:24,760
Speaker 1: lots of people, that's just not a not a possibility.

1300
01:14:24,800 --> 01:14:28,519
Speaker 1: And so you know, how do we continue to offer?

1301
01:14:28,800 --> 01:14:31,960
Speaker 1: You know? So that's what I'm with the Spiritual Habits Program.

1302
01:14:32,000 --> 01:14:33,679
Speaker 1: The problem I'm trying to solve And I'm not saying

1303
01:14:33,680 --> 01:14:35,519
Speaker 1: I have it solved, but I think it's a question

1304
01:14:35,520 --> 01:14:38,639
Speaker 1: that we people in my world need to keep asking

1305
01:14:38,640 --> 01:14:42,000
Speaker 1: and solving. Is what interventions work for really busy people?

1306
01:14:43,439 --> 01:14:47,080
Speaker 1: What interventions help people when they can't step off the treadmill,

1307
01:14:47,800 --> 01:14:50,040
Speaker 1: Because a lot of people can't step off the treadmill,

1308
01:14:50,760 --> 01:14:53,479
Speaker 1: like literally can't. They've got four kids to support, like,

1309
01:14:53,800 --> 01:14:56,680
Speaker 1: and so a lot of us say we can't, but

1310
01:14:56,760 --> 01:15:00,160
Speaker 1: we could, but lots of people really genuinely can't. And

1311
01:15:00,280 --> 01:15:02,840
Speaker 1: so what are the interventions that work for those people?

1312
01:15:03,080 --> 01:15:06,360
Speaker 1: You know? How do we find ways that the mother

1313
01:15:06,479 --> 01:15:10,200
Speaker 1: of four children who has to work two or three

1314
01:15:10,240 --> 01:15:13,360
Speaker 1: part time jobs to keep it all going, how do

1315
01:15:13,439 --> 01:15:15,439
Speaker 1: we how do we support her in a way so

1316
01:15:15,520 --> 01:15:19,160
Speaker 1: that her children can have some of what we've talked about,

1317
01:15:19,200 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 1: some of the learning about emotions and nuance. And so

1318
01:15:22,360 --> 01:15:24,599
Speaker 1: I hope that we continue to see what we're seeing,

1319
01:15:24,600 --> 01:15:28,360
Speaker 1: which is a lot more education in schools about emotions.

1320
01:15:29,040 --> 01:15:31,759
Speaker 1: I think if we we can fight about critical race theory,

1321
01:15:31,880 --> 01:15:34,480
Speaker 1: maybe about you know, which I think is an inflamed

1322
01:15:34,640 --> 01:15:38,160
Speaker 1: fake debate, but even stepping out of the political world,

1323
01:15:38,560 --> 01:15:42,160
Speaker 1: who could argue the fact that like the better able

1324
01:15:42,280 --> 01:15:44,320
Speaker 1: we are to deal with our emotions, the better able

1325
01:15:44,360 --> 01:15:46,760
Speaker 1: we are to handle everything in our life. Like that

1326
01:15:46,800 --> 01:15:51,280
Speaker 1: should be a completely nonpartisan issue. You know, even the

1327
01:15:51,280 --> 01:15:53,720
Speaker 1: people who say f your feelings are pretty lost in

1328
01:15:53,760 --> 01:15:57,519
Speaker 1: their feelings. You know, Like even that phrase F your

1329
01:15:57,560 --> 01:16:00,519
Speaker 1: feelings is a sure indication that you've got lots of feelings.

1330
01:16:01,160 --> 01:16:04,639
Speaker 1: So we all have them, you know, we all have them,

1331
01:16:05,320 --> 01:16:08,880
Speaker 1: And I think you're right. I think beginning to figure

1332
01:16:08,920 --> 01:16:13,840
Speaker 1: out how to best support our communities and how to

1333
01:16:13,920 --> 01:16:17,760
Speaker 1: create access and space, you know, I will say it's

1334
01:16:17,760 --> 01:16:21,559
Speaker 1: one of the things that really excites me about the

1335
01:16:21,600 --> 01:16:26,559
Speaker 1: current administration expanding the child tax credit. You know, they've

1336
01:16:26,600 --> 01:16:30,479
Speaker 1: worked for this for eighteen years. There have been congress

1337
01:16:30,520 --> 01:16:34,160
Speaker 1: persons fighting for this expansion to give much more money

1338
01:16:34,160 --> 01:16:36,760
Speaker 1: to families. And I think about that that mom, you're

1339
01:16:36,800 --> 01:16:39,960
Speaker 1: talking about this hypothetical. Mom, I know women like that.

1340
01:16:40,160 --> 01:16:43,160
Speaker 1: I've sat and met with folks like this. I got

1341
01:16:43,240 --> 01:16:46,360
Speaker 1: to talk to an incredible woman years ago when I

1342
01:16:46,400 --> 01:16:48,519
Speaker 1: was in Houston and I did some volunteering at the

1343
01:16:48,560 --> 01:16:53,200
Speaker 1: Houston Food Bank UM not long after Hurricane Harvey, and

1344
01:16:53,400 --> 01:16:56,040
Speaker 1: they talked about the ways that they supported the community,

1345
01:16:56,080 --> 01:16:58,320
Speaker 1: and one of the things they built into the Houston

1346
01:16:58,360 --> 01:17:02,000
Speaker 1: Food Bank is a growth restore, but it's a grocery

1347
01:17:02,040 --> 01:17:04,280
Speaker 1: store you come to and you you do your shopping

1348
01:17:04,320 --> 01:17:08,920
Speaker 1: at where everything is free. And they talked about what

1349
01:17:09,040 --> 01:17:11,720
Speaker 1: it means to a community to be able to come

1350
01:17:11,760 --> 01:17:16,240
Speaker 1: in and have, you know, a quote normal experience, and

1351
01:17:16,520 --> 01:17:19,960
Speaker 1: how empowering it is. And one of the ladies I

1352
01:17:20,000 --> 01:17:22,360
Speaker 1: met there, who was also volunteering there, said, you know,

1353
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:24,360
Speaker 1: I used to be a recipient of the food Bank,

1354
01:17:24,400 --> 01:17:27,120
Speaker 1: and I used to walk through this grocery store and

1355
01:17:27,160 --> 01:17:29,760
Speaker 1: I would do my shopping and leave without a bill.

1356
01:17:30,479 --> 01:17:33,040
Speaker 1: And what it meant for me to do this once

1357
01:17:33,080 --> 01:17:36,120
Speaker 1: I found out I was eligible to you know, benefit

1358
01:17:36,200 --> 01:17:40,519
Speaker 1: from this program is that I could keep my full

1359
01:17:40,520 --> 01:17:43,400
Speaker 1: time job, but I could quit the part time job

1360
01:17:43,439 --> 01:17:47,680
Speaker 1: I had, which only enabled me to buy groceries. And

1361
01:17:47,720 --> 01:17:49,640
Speaker 1: when I quit that job, because I could come here

1362
01:17:49,680 --> 01:17:52,120
Speaker 1: and get food, I was able to go to night school.

1363
01:17:52,880 --> 01:17:54,640
Speaker 1: She said, Now I have a full time job that

1364
01:17:54,680 --> 01:17:57,719
Speaker 1: pays me three times what my crappy old full time

1365
01:17:57,840 --> 01:18:01,120
Speaker 1: job used to pay me. And all I needed was

1366
01:18:01,160 --> 01:18:04,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of help to get a little bit

1367
01:18:04,000 --> 01:18:07,960
Speaker 1: of space. And I think about what this is going

1368
01:18:08,000 --> 01:18:10,040
Speaker 1: to mean for so many families who will be able

1369
01:18:10,040 --> 01:18:12,639
Speaker 1: to afford childcare so that night school is an option.

1370
01:18:12,640 --> 01:18:15,720
Speaker 1: Who will be able to afford groceries so that they

1371
01:18:15,760 --> 01:18:17,719
Speaker 1: don't have to worry about where their kids next meals

1372
01:18:17,760 --> 01:18:20,880
Speaker 1: are coming from. Who will be able to afford dental care,

1373
01:18:21,040 --> 01:18:23,960
Speaker 1: whatever it is that a family needs. And that's a

1374
01:18:24,000 --> 01:18:27,240
Speaker 1: place where you know, as you reference your son, we're

1375
01:18:27,240 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 1: looking at a great systemic solution. And it's only the

1376
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:33,600
Speaker 1: first it's the first piece of the puzzle that you referenced.

1377
01:18:34,000 --> 01:18:37,400
Speaker 1: But I'm excited that we're doing things like this, and

1378
01:18:37,479 --> 01:18:41,200
Speaker 1: my hope is that yes, we can also push for

1379
01:18:42,000 --> 01:18:47,120
Speaker 1: systemic changes and solutions that can enable space for mental

1380
01:18:47,120 --> 01:18:50,719
Speaker 1: health and access to mental health services for people, because

1381
01:18:50,760 --> 01:18:53,960
Speaker 1: everyone deserves them that they do. And even if you're

1382
01:18:54,000 --> 01:18:58,040
Speaker 1: a stone cold capitalist right like here, we can use

1383
01:18:58,080 --> 01:19:01,000
Speaker 1: me as an example. I it through a forty five

1384
01:19:01,080 --> 01:19:05,559
Speaker 1: day treatment program for free because I was indigent. I

1385
01:19:05,560 --> 01:19:07,639
Speaker 1: don't know if those exist anymore, but it did then.

1386
01:19:07,680 --> 01:19:11,200
Speaker 1: Thank god, I went through a six month halfway house

1387
01:19:11,400 --> 01:19:14,960
Speaker 1: that was free and I was on public assistance. I

1388
01:19:15,000 --> 01:19:18,000
Speaker 1: got welfare during that time to pay for the food

1389
01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:22,240
Speaker 1: for this place. I have repaid that investment in me.

1390
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:25,080
Speaker 1: I don't. I couldn't even tell you how many times

1391
01:19:25,080 --> 01:19:30,559
Speaker 1: and tax dollars I have repaid that investment fiftyfold. You

1392
01:19:30,560 --> 01:19:34,479
Speaker 1: couldn't make a better investment, right. So so even if

1393
01:19:34,520 --> 01:19:37,120
Speaker 1: we're talking about if we even if you want to

1394
01:19:37,360 --> 01:19:41,559
Speaker 1: just be like, I'm a cap you know, I'm a capitalist, right,

1395
01:19:41,560 --> 01:19:44,639
Speaker 1: I don't believe in handouts. Right, even in that case,

1396
01:19:45,000 --> 01:19:47,400
Speaker 1: the person who goes back to night school is now

1397
01:19:47,600 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 1: contributing way more tax dollars than they did working three

1398
01:19:51,400 --> 01:19:55,280
Speaker 1: crappy part time jobs like this stuff. I mean it

1399
01:19:54,920 --> 01:19:58,320
Speaker 1: it works if we invest in the people. And so

1400
01:19:58,800 --> 01:20:01,439
Speaker 1: you know, I'm I'm That's an other example of me

1401
01:20:01,640 --> 01:20:04,400
Speaker 1: of you know, the things that that that formed me,

1402
01:20:04,479 --> 01:20:09,280
Speaker 1: But I was given opportunities. Those were opportunities now those

1403
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:12,280
Speaker 1: were available to everybody in those days. Again, I don't

1404
01:20:12,280 --> 01:20:14,280
Speaker 1: know what it's like today, you know, I don't know

1405
01:20:14,320 --> 01:20:17,840
Speaker 1: what opportunities are there for the homeless heroine heddic today.

1406
01:20:17,880 --> 01:20:20,720
Speaker 1: I guess probably not as good, right, because I think

1407
01:20:20,720 --> 01:20:25,000
Speaker 1: we've eroded our mental health system, probably even worse than

1408
01:20:25,040 --> 01:20:27,800
Speaker 1: it was twenty five years ago. You know, But that's

1409
01:20:27,800 --> 01:20:30,920
Speaker 1: an example of you know, an investment in me paid

1410
01:20:30,920 --> 01:20:37,439
Speaker 1: off societally in so many ways, obviously financially, but hopefully

1411
01:20:37,439 --> 01:20:42,679
Speaker 1: in other ways. I should think so. And I think

1412
01:20:42,720 --> 01:20:46,240
Speaker 1: that that's it's a large scale example of what we've

1413
01:20:46,280 --> 01:20:50,320
Speaker 1: been talking about today, holding holding the both, and you know,

1414
01:20:50,479 --> 01:20:55,679
Speaker 1: people deserve to be supported, and it's a great return

1415
01:20:55,720 --> 01:20:59,000
Speaker 1: on investment for us as a society. Absolutely, it's it's

1416
01:20:59,120 --> 01:21:05,520
Speaker 1: moral and fiscal. It's it's both. And the possibility the safety,

1417
01:21:05,160 --> 01:21:08,200
Speaker 1: the companies that will be launched, in the small businesses

1418
01:21:08,200 --> 01:21:11,639
Speaker 1: that will be created if we just help people out,

1419
01:21:12,080 --> 01:21:15,800
Speaker 1: I feel really exciting to me. Yeah, it's it's what's

1420
01:21:15,840 --> 01:21:19,680
Speaker 1: made me pull my hair out about climate change for ever,

1421
01:21:19,720 --> 01:21:22,679
Speaker 1: since I started a solar business and before is just like,

1422
01:21:23,680 --> 01:21:26,479
Speaker 1: how are we not seeing? You know, we talked about

1423
01:21:26,520 --> 01:21:29,639
Speaker 1: it's going to cost so much, but there are huge

1424
01:21:29,680 --> 01:21:34,360
Speaker 1: opportunities here, you know, huge opportunities that are coming. And

1425
01:21:34,400 --> 01:21:36,479
Speaker 1: do we want to lead that? Do we want to

1426
01:21:36,560 --> 01:21:40,200
Speaker 1: do what's right for the planet and future generations and

1427
01:21:40,320 --> 01:21:45,600
Speaker 1: what makes financial sense and great jobs. It's just it's

1428
01:21:45,680 --> 01:21:48,360
Speaker 1: just made me want to bang my head against wall

1429
01:21:48,439 --> 01:21:50,960
Speaker 1: for a long time, you and me both, my friend,

1430
01:21:51,479 --> 01:21:54,120
Speaker 1: But I think about that. I think about how one

1431
01:21:54,120 --> 01:21:56,240
Speaker 1: of my favorite things that Dr King ever said was

1432
01:21:56,240 --> 01:21:58,160
Speaker 1: that the moral arc of the universe is long, but

1433
01:21:58,240 --> 01:22:03,639
Speaker 1: it bends towards justice. And I think about how it's

1434
01:22:03,720 --> 01:22:08,479
Speaker 1: our responsibility not only to ensure that we are bending

1435
01:22:09,000 --> 01:22:13,000
Speaker 1: society toward more and more justice, but also more and

1436
01:22:13,040 --> 01:22:20,040
Speaker 1: more progress. We we have to create and promote and

1437
01:22:20,320 --> 01:22:25,679
Speaker 1: legislate for progress for us and for the planet. And

1438
01:22:26,680 --> 01:22:30,400
Speaker 1: it feels like a big task, but I think it's important.

1439
01:22:31,560 --> 01:22:33,559
Speaker 1: You know, the thing that I said that you referenced about,

1440
01:22:33,600 --> 01:22:36,640
Speaker 1: we've all got to be all in on something and

1441
01:22:36,640 --> 01:22:39,559
Speaker 1: and the things that you're talking about in terms of

1442
01:22:39,680 --> 01:22:42,080
Speaker 1: if we work on our own puzzles, if we if

1443
01:22:42,080 --> 01:22:46,160
Speaker 1: we create these pathways to progress for ourselves, we will

1444
01:22:46,200 --> 01:22:50,680
Speaker 1: assist I think society and doing the same when we

1445
01:22:50,760 --> 01:22:53,240
Speaker 1: when we take it out of this you know, big

1446
01:22:53,280 --> 01:22:56,200
Speaker 1: big goals for us moment we're having, and we do

1447
01:22:56,320 --> 01:22:59,320
Speaker 1: bring it back into our now I want to call

1448
01:22:59,360 --> 01:23:01,880
Speaker 1: it a personal puzzle. Now I'm now I'm obsessed with

1449
01:23:01,880 --> 01:23:04,920
Speaker 1: the alliteration that you've offered to me today. But when

1450
01:23:04,960 --> 01:23:08,360
Speaker 1: we bring it back into the personal what what for

1451
01:23:08,520 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 1: you is on your goal list for progress? What feels

1452
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:16,840
Speaker 1: like your work in progress in in this moment? I

1453
01:23:16,880 --> 01:23:22,679
Speaker 1: think what feels to me like the biggest ongoing work

1454
01:23:22,760 --> 01:23:26,479
Speaker 1: for me is I find myself in a little bit

1455
01:23:26,479 --> 01:23:29,840
Speaker 1: of a crossroads, and it's hard to know what is

1456
01:23:29,920 --> 01:23:35,040
Speaker 1: causing what. Mm hmm. So fifty one years old is

1457
01:23:35,200 --> 01:23:38,000
Speaker 1: you know fifty let's call fifty a turning point in ways, right,

1458
01:23:38,840 --> 01:23:44,760
Speaker 1: I've had some really profound spiritual awakenings that really eroded

1459
01:23:44,800 --> 01:23:49,280
Speaker 1: a lot of my ego structure in in I'm not

1460
01:23:49,640 --> 01:23:53,120
Speaker 1: I don't mean like permanently, but but in very profound ways.

1461
01:23:53,200 --> 01:23:55,519
Speaker 1: Things that used to drive me just don't drive me.

1462
01:23:56,439 --> 01:23:58,639
Speaker 1: Some of that, I think is getting older. I think

1463
01:23:58,680 --> 01:24:02,840
Speaker 1: that wisdom gives you. The age gives you the opportunity

1464
01:24:02,880 --> 01:24:05,120
Speaker 1: for wisdom. It doesn't necessarily mean you will have it,

1465
01:24:05,200 --> 01:24:07,800
Speaker 1: but you have opportunity for it. You've had more time

1466
01:24:07,840 --> 01:24:10,760
Speaker 1: to get it. Um. So I've had these spiritual awakenings

1467
01:24:10,760 --> 01:24:15,160
Speaker 1: that have eroded some of the ego a structure. I'm

1468
01:24:15,200 --> 01:24:18,240
Speaker 1: getting older, and as people get older, they often tend

1469
01:24:18,280 --> 01:24:21,240
Speaker 1: to become less ambitious, right, it just sort of happens.

1470
01:24:21,280 --> 01:24:24,280
Speaker 1: I think there's a natural thing. So the combination of

1471
01:24:24,280 --> 01:24:27,960
Speaker 1: those things have led to me not being driven in

1472
01:24:28,000 --> 01:24:30,680
Speaker 1: the way that I used to be driven. Mm h

1473
01:24:33,200 --> 01:24:38,680
Speaker 1: and what that can turn towards occasionally is what I

1474
01:24:38,720 --> 01:24:41,759
Speaker 1: can just vaguely refer to as a lack of energy

1475
01:24:42,600 --> 01:24:47,840
Speaker 1: m hm. And so for me, the work in progress

1476
01:24:48,080 --> 01:24:53,160
Speaker 1: is what are those energy sources that propelled me forward?

1477
01:24:53,600 --> 01:24:57,800
Speaker 1: Given that the ones that we're so strong for so

1478
01:24:57,920 --> 01:25:03,040
Speaker 1: long seem to have st have vanished for me? So

1479
01:25:03,120 --> 01:25:05,200
Speaker 1: where does that energy come from? And then I think

1480
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:08,479
Speaker 1: the other is the same thing that we all is

1481
01:25:08,560 --> 01:25:13,200
Speaker 1: everyone's work in progress, and it's some variation on how

1482
01:25:13,280 --> 01:25:15,240
Speaker 1: much of that do I just say that's the way

1483
01:25:15,280 --> 01:25:18,160
Speaker 1: it is, and how much of that is something that

1484
01:25:18,200 --> 01:25:21,640
Speaker 1: needs to be changed? And I think in all of

1485
01:25:21,680 --> 01:25:24,759
Speaker 1: our lives that is our all, everyone's work in progress.

1486
01:25:24,800 --> 01:25:27,040
Speaker 1: As you look at things and you go, well can

1487
01:25:27,120 --> 01:25:31,519
Speaker 1: I change that? Where do I accept that? And so

1488
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:33,240
Speaker 1: you know, as I look at I go, well, I

1489
01:25:33,280 --> 01:25:36,360
Speaker 1: don't have the energy I had, it say, And so

1490
01:25:36,439 --> 01:25:39,640
Speaker 1: I I wonder about it at in the in the

1491
01:25:39,680 --> 01:25:43,439
Speaker 1: business I'm in, I would have worked myself like crazy too,

1492
01:25:43,560 --> 01:25:45,920
Speaker 1: you know, not just for my own well being, but

1493
01:25:46,080 --> 01:25:50,320
Speaker 1: also because the mission. I would have gone constantly. I

1494
01:25:50,320 --> 01:25:53,519
Speaker 1: don't do that in the same way now. And some

1495
01:25:53,600 --> 01:25:56,479
Speaker 1: of that is lovely, And then some of that I

1496
01:25:56,520 --> 01:26:00,840
Speaker 1: go well, and high energy is a good feeling. Lower

1497
01:26:00,920 --> 01:26:04,040
Speaker 1: energy states are different, but they're not bad. So again,

1498
01:26:04,560 --> 01:26:07,280
Speaker 1: so my work in progresses how much of that is

1499
01:26:07,320 --> 01:26:08,760
Speaker 1: just the way it is and I accept it and

1500
01:26:08,760 --> 01:26:10,960
Speaker 1: it's a good thing and there's contentment and there's ease

1501
01:26:11,080 --> 01:26:13,720
Speaker 1: and all those things, and how much of it do

1502
01:26:13,760 --> 01:26:15,559
Speaker 1: I go? Wait, I need a little more fire here.

1503
01:26:16,880 --> 01:26:19,719
Speaker 1: So that's my work in progress. I think I relate

1504
01:26:19,760 --> 01:26:23,200
Speaker 1: to it very much. So thank you, thank you for sharing,

1505
01:26:23,720 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 1: and thank you for today. This has just been so lovely,

1506
01:26:26,439 --> 01:26:27,080
Speaker 1: It really has