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Speaker 1: Also media We're back.

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Speaker 2: Oh my gosh, it's behind the Bastards, a podcast where

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Speaker 2: Robert Evans ruined his life by reading too many blogs

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Speaker 2: by internet poisoned nerd rationalist people. And I deeply regret

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Speaker 2: everything I've done. How are you doing, David.

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Speaker 3: I'm good, I am. I am concerned for you. This

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Speaker 3: is a difficult place for you to spend a week.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I've had an This is an info hazard. They're

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Speaker 2: not wrong to use that term, just not in the

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Speaker 2: way they mean it.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, this whole.

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Speaker 2: Like I I've I'm half committed to like selling my house,

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Speaker 2: putting my goats into like a big trailer and traveling

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Speaker 2: around the country finding people who are going on online

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Speaker 2: doom loops and like handing them a goat and just

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Speaker 2: like play with this goat for twenty minutes, like it

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Speaker 2: touch an animal, look into its weird little eyes.

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Speaker 3: Get off of your phone. That's Truely, you need to

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Speaker 3: go go do.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, something has to be done. Wid Yeah again, folks,

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Speaker 2: If you want to immunize your stuff to this, a

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Speaker 2: great way to do it is to just like have

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Speaker 2: friends who don't live in a boat with you, right.

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Speaker 1: Small boat?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, let alone barely a boat.

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Speaker 2: And talk to like, you know, my neighbor's my neighbors,

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Speaker 2: like a Mexican dude who loves gardening and has had

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Speaker 2: a completely different life than me and knows nothing of

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Speaker 2: the Internet. And I talk with them a couple of

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Speaker 2: times a week, and it's always one of the best

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Speaker 2: things for me, because I spend so much of the

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Speaker 2: rest of my time with people like Garrison, who are

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Speaker 2: all like the same things I've poisoned my brain with, Like,

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Speaker 2: please go find people who don't know all of the

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Speaker 2: weird Internet things you do and spend more time with them.

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Speaker 1: Aggressive on the people like Garrison.

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Speaker 2: Look, I love Garrison, but they also have started spending

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Speaker 2: a lot of their time with people who aren't in

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Speaker 2: the same weird Internet doom circles that we are, and

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Speaker 2: it's been good for them. It's good for everyone. Truly,

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Speaker 2: save yourself, Save yourself.

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Speaker 3: It doesn't have to be like this.

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Speaker 2: So when we left off, Ziz had kind of psychologically

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Speaker 2: jail broken her friend into suicide and then created an

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Speaker 2: info hazard named after her friend. Great Stuff, Healthy Community.

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Speaker 2: Now a few things happen in quick succession. After this point.

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Speaker 2: The rationalists start to blame passic suicide on Ziz. And

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Speaker 2: this is really when a lot of folks in rationalist

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Speaker 2: circles start breaking off and calling, like saying like, hey,

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Speaker 2: this is what Ziz and Winner doing. They've made like

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Speaker 2: a cult, right, And again I don't think they're really

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Speaker 2: off base here, but also they tend to ignore all

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Speaker 2: of the suicides in the rationalist community and d they

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Speaker 2: are in a cult. Yeah, you know, it's more because

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Speaker 2: cult is I think, like you get like they're in

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Speaker 2: a there's a cultic milieu that rationalism forms, which is

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Speaker 2: like the substrate, right, you know, if a cult is

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Speaker 2: like a plant growing up from it, Like they're like,

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Speaker 2: rationalism is this soil that is extremely optimized for growing cults.

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Speaker 2: I think that might be closer, you know, although it's

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Speaker 2: also one of those things where if you're just trying

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Speaker 2: to explain the storm, you can just say it's a cult.

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Speaker 2: You can say it's this weird Bay Area cult about

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Speaker 2: science and AAI and shit like that's.

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Speaker 3: Probably close enough.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. A few things happen in quick succession after this point.

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Speaker 2: One is that a story broke later in twenty eighteen,

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Speaker 2: confirming Zizz's suspicion that the rationalism rationalist community was rife

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Speaker 2: with abuse. Two people accused an influential rationalist who worked

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Speaker 2: at Seafar, a guy named Brent Dill, of abuse while

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Speaker 2: they were dating him. Both were nineteen and he was

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Speaker 2: close to forty. The allations here remind me a little

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Speaker 2: of the ones against Neil Gaman. You've got a very

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Speaker 2: powerful man accused of coercing much younger women into extreme

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Speaker 2: BDSM situations, implying them with drugs. Obviously, none of this

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Speaker 2: is I don't think any of this has been litigated,

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Speaker 2: so I will continue to refer to them as allegations.

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Speaker 2: I don't know exactly what happened here, but this breaks right,

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Speaker 2: and it's a big deal within the community. Rumors spread

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Speaker 2: that c far had kind of tried to like hush

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Speaker 2: the whole mess down in order to protect this guy.

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Speaker 2: They conducted an internal investigation. We all know, like when

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Speaker 2: the cops do an internal investigation, right, that's always reliable.

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Speaker 3: Trust us to figure it out.

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Speaker 2: We'll police ourselves, that's rational. This internal investigation exonerated Dil

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Speaker 2: and included the line he is aligned with Seafar's goals

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Speaker 2: and strategy and should be seen as an ally who

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Speaker 2: embodies a rare kind of agency and a sense of

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Speaker 2: heroic responsibility. There's those words again, agency, heroic responsibility. Dating

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Speaker 2: a nineteen year old. When you're forty and giving your

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Speaker 2: drugs good stuff, people respond with outrage. Se Far eventually

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Speaker 2: eventually banned dil from future events.

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Speaker 3: They kind of.

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Speaker 2: Cave and Ziz would describe Dil later as a true negative.

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Speaker 2: That's someone who both have haves of their brain. Are

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Speaker 2: even yeah, double bad? Now at this point, she still

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Speaker 2: thought yid Kowski and some other c FAR leaders might

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Speaker 2: be double good, but she's really not sure about it.

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Speaker 2: And she's especially not sure because none of them like

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Speaker 2: embrace this terminology.

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Speaker 3: I was gonna say, at this point, has Yodkowski is

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Speaker 3: he like? Is she still? Are they on good terms?

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Speaker 3: Is he still acknowledging?

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Speaker 2: No, she's ever on close terms with Yidkowski.

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Speaker 3: She is.

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Speaker 2: She is speaking and communicating directly with Anna Salomon, who

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Speaker 2: is like one of the Yadkowski's like top people quite

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Speaker 2: a lot. I don't think she's super close to yed Kowski, Like,

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Speaker 2: I'm sure they're at the same events and stuff several times,

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Speaker 2: and she sees she definitely sees him speak. She definitely

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Speaker 2: talks with him, but like, I don't think that they

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Speaker 2: ever have been close, right.

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Speaker 3: Ok.

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Speaker 2: She does try to force a conversation with Anna Salomon

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Speaker 2: outside of c FR HQ about this and other discovery

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Speaker 2: she and Gwynn had made on their boats, and Ziz

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Speaker 2: like writes in the blog post about it that like

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Speaker 2: she felt it was going pretty good and Anna was

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Speaker 2: listening to her. There are context clues that I don't

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Speaker 2: think Ziz picks up on that, like, oh no, Anna

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Speaker 2: immediately felt uncomfortable and like you were assaulting her, like

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Speaker 2: coming up to her and just like kind of barraging

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Speaker 2: her with all of this nonsense. And she did not

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Speaker 2: want to have this conversation, and she kind of pretended

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Speaker 2: that to be agree with you in order to in

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Speaker 2: this because she's not sure if you're dangerous, which.

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Speaker 3: To be fair, you are. Yeah yeah, yeah yeah.

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Speaker 2: Soon later, at a CFAR board meeting, Anna recommended that

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Speaker 2: Ziz be disinvited from joint Mary c Far events. And

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Speaker 2: both of these are separate organizations, but basically like the

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Speaker 2: membership overlaps or like a circle, right. Her reasoning for

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Speaker 2: not wanting Zizz at events is that Ziz war quote

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Speaker 2: black Clothes took super villains as role models and came

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Speaker 2: up with dangerous plans.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, that's correct. I forgot that she was also

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Speaker 3: wearing black roles.

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Speaker 2: She's also started dressing like a wizard. Yes, speaking of

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Speaker 2: dangerous plans, the rationalist fleet or rat fleet was falling apart.

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Speaker 2: By this point. Coast Guard in San Mateo Harbor District

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Speaker 2: authorities had issued numerous warnings over the danger of this

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Speaker 2: tug boat leaking poison into the bay. On several occasions,

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Speaker 2: the calebar nearly hit other ships while drifting, like the

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Speaker 2: anchor gets fucked up. I don't know that they they

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Speaker 2: probably don't have to use it because like they're the

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Speaker 2: navy guy he is, he still as gone, he is bounced.

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Speaker 3: He at least the judgment to cut his losses. So

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Speaker 3: they don't even know how to work boats. They do

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Speaker 3: Gwin is.

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Speaker 2: I think Gwin's actually reasonably competent with the right and

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Speaker 2: she and and zis gets trained up. And these are

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Speaker 2: both smart enough people that I suspect their competent with

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Speaker 2: a sailboat, but like a twenty four foot sailboat and

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Speaker 2: a ninety four foot tug boat very different. That's like

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Speaker 2: I'm good with them driving my prius give me that

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Speaker 2: fucking eighteen wheeler with two with two fucking storage containers

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Speaker 2: on the back, shipping containers on the back. I could

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Speaker 2: probably back that thing into a parking space, no problem. Like,

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Speaker 2: they're just different, you know, damn authorities, right, And what's

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Speaker 2: very funny these accounts of like boat cops getting on

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Speaker 2: the Caleb and talking to Zizians. They're like, these people

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Speaker 2: must be sovereign citizens, which is like a.

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Speaker 3: Totally different kind of thing. And to me, I'm like,

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Speaker 3: you don't sound at.

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Speaker 2: All like But to them, it's like this mix because

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Speaker 2: it's this mix of anarchist theory, right, because these people

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Speaker 2: are anarchists, so they're telling these cops why they don't

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Speaker 2: think the cops have any authority, but they're also like

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Speaker 2: insulting them with these like logical arguments based on obscure

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Speaker 2: rationalist doctrines.

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Speaker 3: And these people are heavy jargon, right, heavy.

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Speaker 2: These cops are just like, okay, so we got some sovereigns,

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Speaker 2: sob sits here, all right, it's four now. Yeah, And

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Speaker 2: again this is like the Bay Area. I think cops

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Speaker 2: in the Barrier are a little especially since they're all white,

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Speaker 2: more used to dealing with like people who are clearly

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Speaker 2: like eccentric, right than maybe like if this had happened

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Speaker 2: in another city. So nothing, there's not really a conflict yet.

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Speaker 2: The cops are just being like, hey, guys, you're this

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Speaker 2: But to be fair, the boat is leaking diesel into

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Speaker 2: the bay. See it as a problem, right. That's In

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Speaker 2: twenty nineteen, another scandal hits the rationalist community. The story

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Speaker 2: broke that a former employee had blackmailed the company over

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Speaker 2: a dispute and used donor funds to pay. This got

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Speaker 2: stacked on top of the scandal that Dill had just created, and,

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Speaker 2: as is in, many of her comrades saw it, the

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Speaker 2: issue was not whether this employee had been mistreated, but

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Speaker 2: that Miri hadn't made the proper, timeless decisions to ensure

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Speaker 2: they couldn't be blackmailed. Per an article for the Rolling

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Speaker 2: Stone quote and they're this not only represented bad decision theory,

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Speaker 2: but called the organization's entire existence into question. In other words,

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Speaker 2: it's not whatever happened with this employee, it's that you

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Speaker 2: didn't make the timeless decisions to make it so that

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Speaker 2: anyone would be scared to try to blackmail you, because

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Speaker 2: they'd know that your response was, so would be so

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Speaker 2: intense that proves you don't have what it takes to

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Speaker 2: really save the world, because you're not ruthless enough to

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Speaker 2: just jump to killing people like us.

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Speaker 3: You're not a psychopath.

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Speaker 2: You're not a psychopathy. They need psychopaths, which is good

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Speaker 2: to save the world. We love psychopaths.

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Speaker 3: We're all we aspire to it.

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Speaker 2: And one of the big problems within the rationalist community

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Speaker 2: is people talk about different mental health conditions as if

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Speaker 2: they're like tools in a toolbox, Like you could go

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Speaker 2: into a psychopathic mode and that's really good for accomplishing

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Speaker 2: these things. So you could you can go eighth, you

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Speaker 2: can make yourself autistic in this they talk this way, right,

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Speaker 2: I'm not saying this is this is not how anything works.

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Speaker 2: I'm not carrying autism and psychopathy. I'm just saying this

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Speaker 2: is how they talk, right.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they then save the world.

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Speaker 2: Right, No, that's that's not None of this is accurate

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Speaker 2: to like the way vias are, Like, you can't just

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Speaker 2: be like.

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Speaker 3: I'm gonna turn off by autism today, I got some shit.

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Speaker 2: No, that's not how we're And some of this is

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Speaker 2: downstream from how I think online discourse has damaged the

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Speaker 2: discussion of mental health because people sometimes do talk about

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Speaker 2: it like pokemon, you know, very much like I think

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Speaker 2: there's some issues there that that do anyway, and and

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Speaker 2: a lot of this is yeah, it's just this soup

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Speaker 2: is not exclusive to Ziz. So Ziz is banned now

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Speaker 2: from Marie c Far events, and her whole crew is

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Speaker 2: increasingly radicalized against the organizations they have. Also, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's both where like c Far has good reason to

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Speaker 2: not want Zizz around, but also all of Zizz most

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Speaker 2: of Zizz's complaints about rationalists like fr and Mary are

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Speaker 2: very valid, right, Like, h yeah, you're both right about

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Speaker 2: each other. It's like how Elon Musk and Peter Teal

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Speaker 2: would ship talk each other. It's like that you both

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Speaker 2: do have each other's number.

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Speaker 3: Yes, everybody's got a point. Everybody's got a point.

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Speaker 2: I just kind of wish you would all go away.

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Speaker 2: In November of twenty nineteen, SEEFAR held their annual alumni

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Speaker 2: reunion out in a chunk of the California Redwoods down

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Speaker 2: the stream from the street from the Bohemian Grove. The

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Speaker 2: road that passes is literally the Bohemian Highway, right. This

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Speaker 2: is like for an idea of how much money there

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Speaker 2: is in mainstream rationalism. Right, they are having their big

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Speaker 2: party next to Bohemian Grove. Ziz had sent an open

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Speaker 2: letter and like a letteredy at Kowski a few days

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Speaker 2: earlier or urging members of both organizations to quit in

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Speaker 2: the interest of saving the world, basically saying these groups

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Speaker 2: are so compromised they can no longer like add effectively

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Speaker 2: to the things we're trying to do to our important work.

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Speaker 3: So you should all leave.

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Speaker 2: And kind of the subtext is and do what me

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Speaker 2: and Gwynn are doing, you know, start ale. So on

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Speaker 2: the day of this event, Zizz, Gwinn and two others

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Speaker 2: in their circle drive up to this like this location

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Speaker 2: out in the woods with a box truck, a shuttle bus,

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Speaker 2: and a Prius and they block the entrances and exits

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Speaker 2: of the venue with their vehicles and they jump out

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Speaker 2: wearing black robes, guy fox masks and black gloves. Now,

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Speaker 2: this is not a violent protest I have there's no

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Speaker 2: evidence that they intended violence. They had walkie talkies, one

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Speaker 2: person had a can of mace, but like you know,

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Speaker 2: people carry mace, that's not suspicious. And all they're trying

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Speaker 2: to do is distribute flyers lying out their case against

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Speaker 2: CFAR and Miri. But they have blocked the entrances and

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Speaker 2: exits and they talk like sith wizards, right so everything

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Speaker 2: they say sounds cryptic and kind of threatening, and they're

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Speaker 2: wearing guy fox masks. The police get called immediately, and

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Speaker 2: as best as I can tell, it does. Maybe I'm wrong.

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Speaker 2: It seems like the Seafar MIRI people like new because

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Speaker 2: there's like send out an email saying hey, maybe don't come,

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Speaker 2: or like if you do, just like being note that

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Speaker 2: these weird people are here. But the venue owner, like

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Speaker 2: the people running the venue, call the cops, is what

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Speaker 2: it seems like happens. There are different allegations here. I

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Speaker 2: don't precisely know, but for whatever the case, two false

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Speaker 2: pieces of information are given to the cops when they

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Speaker 2: get called. They are told the cops are told one

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Speaker 2: person has a gun and another person has an axe. Right, So,

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Speaker 2: and I think it's people who worked at the venue

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Speaker 2: or make these allegations. It was definitely an employee at

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Speaker 2: the venue who were alleged that he saw an axe

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Speaker 2: a county sheriff who responded, or so it was a

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Speaker 2: person at the venue who picked up an axe and

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Speaker 2: someone saw them and reported that to the police too, right,

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Speaker 2: because he was scared of these people. A county sheriff

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Speaker 2: sheriff's deputy responds and immediately calls for major backup because

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Speaker 2: he's told someone has a gun, and you know, as

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Speaker 2: a cop with just kind of like a pop culture knowledge,

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Speaker 2: you hear like a bunch of people in robes and

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Speaker 2: masks with a gun outside of this big event where

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Speaker 2: like there's children doing a ropes course next door. Like,

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Speaker 2: his thought is, there's a mass shooting brewing, right, some

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Speaker 2: people are going to do something fucked up, right, So

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Speaker 2: he calls for a massive like swat response basically, you know,

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Speaker 2: compared to the actual danger these people present, which is

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Speaker 2: right now nil. The author that wired piece spoke to

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Speaker 2: the sheriff's deputy who responded initially a guy named Parks,

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Speaker 2: And this is that account. Quote in Parks's account which

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Speaker 2: he related to me. In the fall of twenty twenty three,

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Speaker 2: at a local Starbucks, the protesters were speaking in unison,

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Speaker 2: just stuff I didn't really understand, but it was somewhat rehearsed.

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Speaker 3: He said. The group had printed.

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Speaker 2: Flyers outlining their complaints against Sefar and Miri. They alleged

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Speaker 2: that Mary had paid out blackmail using donor funds to

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Speaker 2: quash sexual misconduct allegations, and that Sefar's leader discriminates against

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Speaker 2: trans women. Other allegations were more esoteric. Sephar does not

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Speaker 2: appreciably develop novel rationality mental tech. The path to avoiding extinction,

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Speaker 2: they wrote, involved escaping containment by society through mental autonomy

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Speaker 2: and inter hemispheric game theory. So sore, some random sheriff's

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Speaker 2: deputy is not going to understand what's going on here?

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Speaker 3: What the fuck are you talking about?

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Speaker 2: He and his men default to the thing that cops

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Speaker 2: do when they get confused, which is they get violent.

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Speaker 2: Right quote. He and Rix ordered the protesters to get

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Speaker 2: on the ground. As they did, each one called out,

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Speaker 2: demanding a same gender pack down, like one might request

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Speaker 2: at an airport. All three were trans women, but Park

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Speaker 2: says he couldn't discern their genders because of the robes

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Speaker 2: and masks. Regardless that we're not going to get that

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Speaker 2: luxury at that time, he told me, it's like, well,

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Speaker 2: we don't know if you're a boy or a girl,

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Speaker 2: and we got a handcuff you. Parks's deputy subdued the

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Speaker 2: three and prone positions what Parks calls a high risk

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Speaker 2: style takedown, requiring more force than a normal handcuffing style.

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Speaker 2: So there's a several articles I've read will to refer

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Speaker 2: to a discrepancy between how the Zizians and the cops

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Speaker 2: describe these events. I've read both accounts. I really don't

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Speaker 2: see a gap. What I see is the cops describing

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Speaker 2: their violent into humanizing behavior as like this is the

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Speaker 2: normal way to respond, and this describing it as to

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Speaker 2: humanizing and traumatizing. The only question here is, like the

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Speaker 2: moral quality you give to the cops tackling a bunch

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Speaker 2: of people basically who don't have weapons because they got

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Speaker 2: a phone call, right, which, like, if you're a cop,

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Speaker 2: you're like, well, this is the only way to act.

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Speaker 2: And if you're I think most people like you're like, well,

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Speaker 2: probably could have just talked this situation down. I don't

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Speaker 2: see where in arrested, like yeah. Gwinn later writes this

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Speaker 2: about the experience. When we arrived, a staff member called

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Speaker 2: the police and falsely told them we had a gun

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Speaker 2: and that we were going into buildings, and that that

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Speaker 2: we were too afraid to get off the phone, they

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Speaker 2: were too afraid to get off the phone. Later report

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Speaker 2: said there was an active shooter with a duffel bag.

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Speaker 2: None of us had a duffel bag. Police arrived with

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Speaker 2: their guns out and we were immediately arrested within about

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Speaker 2: ten minutes of us arriving, after which we were sexually assaulted.

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Speaker 2: In my case, I was groped and I had my

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Speaker 2: pants pulled down and then sat on by an officer

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Speaker 2: in a mounting position. They are mocked and derided like

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Speaker 2: as their naked, cops are making comments about their bodies.

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Speaker 2: It's like a really ugly situation, right, And I have

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Speaker 2: no trouble believe that this is true because it comports

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Speaker 2: with dozens of arrest stories I've heard in multiple states.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it's part for the course.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's also the fact that they are specifically

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Speaker 2: the police are making fun of them for being trans

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Speaker 2: is very much in line with what statistics say about

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Speaker 2: trans people and police violence. A twenty thirteen report from

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Speaker 2: the Anti Violence Project found that trans individuals are seven

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Speaker 2: times likely or to experience violence while in interacting with

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Speaker 2: the police than cisgender people. So I have no trouble

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Speaker 2: believing Gwin's accounts.

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Speaker 3: Here, even though.

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Speaker 2: Again I treat her with proper scrutiny in most areas,

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Speaker 2: this all seems like what cops do.

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Speaker 3: Now.

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Speaker 2: The other big discrepancy where the Zizzians are I think

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Speaker 2: a little off base, is that they claim they are

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Speaker 2: immediately dead named and misgendered by the newspapers covering their

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Speaker 2: initial arrests. And they are dead named. But the newspapers

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Speaker 2: don't really have an option here.

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Speaker 3: Right, right. They don't talk.

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Speaker 2: When they're arrested, right, which is a very normal thing

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Speaker 2: for like a protest. They say absolutely nothing and they

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Speaker 2: have no idea on them. So the police fingerprint them,

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Speaker 2: which brings up their legal names, and that's what's given

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Speaker 2: to the newspapers. So like the initial news articles aren't trying.

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Speaker 2: This is just the only name available. But it escalates

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Speaker 2: this situation, right, And it is worth noting that a

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Speaker 2: number of outlets do continue to dead name them up

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Speaker 2: to the present, but that initial reporting it's like, well

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Speaker 2: that's just the only information that was available. But all

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Speaker 2: of this is going to like there, this is this

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Speaker 2: court case is going to where on they get charged

382
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Speaker 2: initially with felonies. Baylis said it like fifty grand for

383
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Speaker 2: Ziz and Gwynn. This is eventually reduced and they're reduced

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Speaker 2: to misdemeanors, but it takes like four days for them

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Speaker 2: to make bail. And there they will be finding because

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Speaker 2: they're going to counter sue over these arrests, and both

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Speaker 2: the trauma of the arrests, their anger over them, and

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Speaker 2: the fact that there's the stress of this year's long

389
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Speaker 2: court battle is going to have this extremely deleterious effect

390
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Speaker 2: on everybody's mental health when they're already not doing well. Right, Arreth,

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Speaker 2: that's great stuff. Yeah, around this time the rash the

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Speaker 2: Zizzi ends move they stop doing their fleet thing right,

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Speaker 2: they move out of the boats, and they kind of

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Speaker 2: end things by leaving their tugboat adrift because there's nothing

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Speaker 2: to do with a ninety four foot tug boat.

396
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Speaker 3: Nobody can handle a tug.

397
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Speaker 2: Boat, right, Like, it's too big to do much with

398
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Speaker 2: and they they probably could have figured something out, but

399
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Speaker 2: they decide the opportunity cost of figuring out how to

400
00:20:23,040 --> 00:20:26,120
Speaker 2: dispose of this boat is it will it will distract

401
00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:28,080
Speaker 2: from their important work, so it's okay for it to

402
00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:31,080
Speaker 2: sink and cause like a modest environmental crisis by leaking

403
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Speaker 2: diesel into the Bay. Basically, Ziz decides that the value

404
00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:37,440
Speaker 2: of all the sea life that it kills is less

405
00:20:37,440 --> 00:20:40,719
Speaker 2: than the value of them continuing their work, which at

406
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Speaker 2: this point, if you're keeping track, is trying to figure

407
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Speaker 2: out how to live out of box trucks. So that's

408
00:20:45,880 --> 00:20:49,600
Speaker 2: what they're doing now. And this is where a guy

409
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Speaker 2: named Curtis.

410
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Speaker 3: The living space. They've got a worse living space. They

411
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Speaker 3: made it worse than boats.

412
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Speaker 2: Oh boy, I can't tell you how much of this

413
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Speaker 2: story is just the result of Bay Area rent prices

414
00:21:03,560 --> 00:21:11,600
Speaker 2: being unreasonable. Yeah, yeah, it's a really just like Superman one.

415
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Speaker 2: So enter Curtis Linde Lynd is a guy. He was

416
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Speaker 2: like a he made his career doing shipping. He lived

417
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Speaker 2: in a boat in and around where Ziz and her

418
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Speaker 2: friends were living at sea, and they met each other

419
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Speaker 2: through that. He like sells them an anchor. But he's

420
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Speaker 2: also like push an eighty and so he's got he's

421
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Speaker 2: interested in like getting out of the boat life because

422
00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:32,800
Speaker 2: it sucks. And he's got a plot of land that

423
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Speaker 2: he he's he's got a house on and he's got

424
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Speaker 2: extra space that he's interested in renting out. There's not

425
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Speaker 2: like most there's not like full houses, but there's like

426
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Speaker 2: some shipping containers and I think like some RVY go

427
00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,760
Speaker 2: busted RV or whatever, and he's got like some power

428
00:21:46,800 --> 00:21:50,480
Speaker 2: and water hookups. Here's how his son Carl described what

429
00:21:50,520 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 2: his father wanted to do with this place. He just

430
00:21:53,040 --> 00:21:55,359
Speaker 2: wanted this as a place to let artists or woodworkers,

431
00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:57,439
Speaker 2: electricians to be able to come and live in a

432
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Speaker 2: little trailer and have a container where they could work

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Speaker 2: and put their two us and have a safe place.

434
00:22:02,040 --> 00:22:04,560
Speaker 2: So again, depending on how you're looking, he's either trying

435
00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:07,239
Speaker 2: to like have a cheap space where like, you know,

436
00:22:07,920 --> 00:22:10,639
Speaker 2: artists and the like can afford to like survive and

437
00:22:10,680 --> 00:22:12,919
Speaker 2: have little working spaces, or he's trying to be like

438
00:22:12,960 --> 00:22:15,920
Speaker 2: a punk slum lord. Right, And I mean the line

439
00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:17,600
Speaker 2: is thin, right, The line is thin.

440
00:22:17,920 --> 00:22:18,960
Speaker 3: The line is so thin.

441
00:22:20,640 --> 00:22:23,840
Speaker 2: Speaking of a thin line, the sponsors of this podcast

442
00:22:23,880 --> 00:22:28,240
Speaker 2: are the thin line keeping society safe from me not

443
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,199
Speaker 2: having enough money to live in a boat, you know,

444
00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:34,800
Speaker 2: or this is why I have enough money to live

445
00:22:34,800 --> 00:22:41,399
Speaker 2: in a boat where I would go crazy, or a

446
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:42,600
Speaker 2: box truck or a.

447
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:46,640
Speaker 3: Box truck to live in a box truck. The joy.

448
00:22:48,200 --> 00:22:51,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, we're we're talking about how good it is to

449
00:22:51,520 --> 00:22:52,520
Speaker 2: live in a box truck.

450
00:22:57,160 --> 00:22:58,120
Speaker 3: Good stuff.

451
00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:02,280
Speaker 2: Is at this point, I think at any given time,

452
00:23:02,320 --> 00:23:04,240
Speaker 2: there's between like six and nine people, you.

453
00:23:04,200 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 3: Know, okay, okay, so very small.

454
00:23:06,200 --> 00:23:10,439
Speaker 2: Very very small somewhere in that neighborhood. It fluctuates, and

455
00:23:10,480 --> 00:23:12,560
Speaker 2: there's also there's a bunch of people who are like

456
00:23:12,640 --> 00:23:15,240
Speaker 2: you could call them Zizians. They're in and out. They'll

457
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,359
Speaker 2: visit sometimes or they even live in other states, but

458
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:20,920
Speaker 2: they're always in contact with multiple members of the group

459
00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 2: through the Internet. This is a very like geographically decentralized group,

460
00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:27,159
Speaker 2: although there is that like core inner circle who are

461
00:23:27,160 --> 00:23:30,240
Speaker 2: all together on this land and for a while things

462
00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:34,119
Speaker 2: are okay there the Zizians pay Rent ziz continues to

463
00:23:34,119 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: write blog posts and run her followers through Uni hemispheric

464
00:23:37,400 --> 00:23:41,080
Speaker 2: sleep sessions to upgrade them. And you know, it's also

465
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:43,720
Speaker 2: important for me to know they don't ever call themselves Zizians.

466
00:23:43,960 --> 00:23:47,000
Speaker 2: That name first comes up around this period of time,

467
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:52,359
Speaker 2: right after that disastrous protest, when an anonymous rationalist publishes

468
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:57,240
Speaker 2: a paper called like Zizians dot info that first identifies

469
00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,440
Speaker 2: them as a cult and describes like their union hemispheric

470
00:24:00,520 --> 00:24:03,399
Speaker 2: sleep tactics, and it's it's written because this person is

471
00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:06,200
Speaker 2: in the community and wants to stop other people from

472
00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:08,320
Speaker 2: falling in with Ziz. And I think they have good

473
00:24:08,320 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 2: intentions here. They like see the danger they also one

474
00:24:11,400 --> 00:24:13,000
Speaker 2: of the issues with the document is I don't think

475
00:24:13,040 --> 00:24:15,879
Speaker 2: they see some of the danger of other rationalists stuff.

476
00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:19,120
Speaker 2: Yeah right, This is like why I say that it's

477
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: like a cultic substrate rather than being a pure cult,

478
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:24,000
Speaker 2: because there are people in it who can recognize stuff

479
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,879
Speaker 2: like this and try to, you know, provide a degree

480
00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 2: of like accountability. Just like there are people who will

481
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 2: like report on and they help. They hold seafar S

482
00:24:32,760 --> 00:24:35,240
Speaker 2: feet to the fire when people get accused of abuse.

483
00:24:36,560 --> 00:24:39,440
Speaker 2: So the document alleges that Ziz had started telling her

484
00:24:39,440 --> 00:24:42,640
Speaker 2: followers she was the basically she's the only double good

485
00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,200
Speaker 2: or intrinsically good person there and one of the only

486
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:46,920
Speaker 2: intrinsically good people on the planet.

487
00:24:47,440 --> 00:24:47,960
Speaker 3: Uhs.

488
00:24:48,000 --> 00:24:50,360
Speaker 2: Sessions tended to reveal that other people in the community

489
00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 2: are just single good and per Ziz's theories about the

490
00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,560
Speaker 2: hero contract, they can only accomplish maximum good by feeding

491
00:24:56,560 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 2: their energy and resources to the heroes.

492
00:24:58,400 --> 00:24:58,760
Speaker 3: Ziz.

493
00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,040
Speaker 2: Here's an example of the kind of things she sent

494
00:25:01,119 --> 00:25:04,280
Speaker 2: people she saw as single good saying your single good

495
00:25:04,320 --> 00:25:06,240
Speaker 2: is saying help, I have a yerk in my head.

496
00:25:06,359 --> 00:25:07,920
Speaker 2: Did you ever read Anamorphs as a book?

497
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: David? Wow?

498
00:25:09,280 --> 00:25:12,639
Speaker 2: Yes, Oh that's a reference to is those worms that

499
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 2: control your brain? And that's not right? Yeah, yeah, that's yes.

500
00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 2: I know, deep cut, deep cut?

501
00:25:20,600 --> 00:25:22,720
Speaker 3: Whoa not un luck to part of my brain that

502
00:25:22,880 --> 00:25:25,240
Speaker 3: I have not used for right? Right?

503
00:25:25,600 --> 00:25:27,919
Speaker 2: A bunch of people are now like having like the

504
00:25:28,000 --> 00:25:31,439
Speaker 2: severance moment, but like remembering every Scholastic book fair they

505
00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:32,879
Speaker 2: ever went to is again.

506
00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 3: Man oh man, all they gotta do is hit goosebumps

507
00:25:36,960 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 3: to me.

508
00:25:37,359 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 2: I know, I know only so saying your single good

509
00:25:41,560 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 2: is saying help, I have a yerk in my head.

510
00:25:43,440 --> 00:25:45,199
Speaker 2: That's a merror image of me. I need you to

511
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:48,080
Speaker 2: surgically destroy it, even if I'm then crippled for life

512
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 2: or might die in the process. Then kill me if

513
00:25:51,080 --> 00:25:53,040
Speaker 2: I ever do one evil act for the rest of

514
00:25:53,080 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 2: my life. That's better than being a slave again. That's

515
00:25:57,080 --> 00:26:00,880
Speaker 2: her role is surgically destroying the evil brains of her

516
00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:04,359
Speaker 2: half brains of her followers, and then she has to

517
00:26:04,400 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 2: be willing to murder them if they ever do anything bad,

518
00:26:06,960 --> 00:26:08,960
Speaker 2: because if they ever do anything bad, then it means

519
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:10,960
Speaker 2: that the evil side could take over and it could

520
00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:14,840
Speaker 2: do like Megabad right, doom the world. She and she

521
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,560
Speaker 2: takes this on herself, yes, and also I mean she's

522
00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,600
Speaker 2: gonna have other people do the killing basically, but like, yes,

523
00:26:21,680 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 2: this is what she's saying is the stakes, and this

524
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:26,400
Speaker 2: is how she sees her role within the community. Right,

525
00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: And I think at this point that's pretty could leader,

526
00:26:28,960 --> 00:26:38,360
Speaker 2: that's pretty good. I think we're probably crossed that KT boundary, right. Yeah. Yeah,

527
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:40,919
Speaker 2: saying you got to murder people because they're the devil

528
00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 2: the yurk inside their brain. Yeah, it might be a

529
00:26:44,600 --> 00:26:49,359
Speaker 2: little bit of cult weather feels like a cult outside.

530
00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,440
Speaker 2: So some Zizians, not implicated in any crimes, have attacked

531
00:26:54,440 --> 00:26:57,480
Speaker 2: this piece, this Zizians dot info things being inaccurate and

532
00:26:57,520 --> 00:27:00,200
Speaker 2: basically a rationalist hit job. And again there's there's some

533
00:27:00,320 --> 00:27:02,760
Speaker 2: reason for suspicion here, but most of the claims made

534
00:27:02,840 --> 00:27:06,359
Speaker 2: in it I have backed up through reading the individual sources.

535
00:27:06,640 --> 00:27:08,320
Speaker 2: One of the issues of that a lot of people

536
00:27:08,320 --> 00:27:10,439
Speaker 2: writing about this will credit ziz with all of the

537
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:14,600
Speaker 2: una hemispheric stuff, and that's mostly Gwynn. So there's a

538
00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,960
Speaker 2: point worth making around this time, a woman named Jamie

539
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:22,320
Speaker 2: Zashko started living nearby with her girlfriend, Alice Monday. Both

540
00:27:22,359 --> 00:27:26,960
Speaker 2: are rationalists that are interested in Zizz's ideas. Alice and

541
00:27:27,040 --> 00:27:29,560
Speaker 2: Ziz have been in contact for years, and in fact, Alice,

542
00:27:29,800 --> 00:27:32,920
Speaker 2: because she's an older and more established rationalist, when Ziz

543
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:35,040
Speaker 2: was kind of new to the community, had since Ziz

544
00:27:35,040 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 2: an article on the Gervais principle for the first time,

545
00:27:38,200 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 2: which had spawned her ideas about needing to jail break

546
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:44,160
Speaker 2: people into psychopathy, and at varying times, Ziz would claim

547
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,800
Speaker 2: Alice as a mentor. There are some I don't like,

548
00:27:48,000 --> 00:27:51,880
Speaker 2: very vague accounts that Alice has done some problematic, abusive

549
00:27:51,880 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 2: stuff in the community. I don't know trree any of

550
00:27:53,840 --> 00:27:55,919
Speaker 2: that is, but this is what people talk about, and

551
00:27:55,960 --> 00:27:57,639
Speaker 2: I think Ziz may have had a break with her

552
00:27:57,720 --> 00:28:01,760
Speaker 2: over some sort of disagreement, because it looks it seems

553
00:28:01,800 --> 00:28:04,320
Speaker 2: like from what I can tell, Jamie, who is dating

554
00:28:04,359 --> 00:28:06,840
Speaker 2: Alice at the time, is in direct contact with Ziz

555
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,040
Speaker 2: and interested in her, but also is not communicating with

556
00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:14,200
Speaker 2: Ziz under her real name. She is making a bunch

557
00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:16,960
Speaker 2: of sock puppet accounts on her blog, and she is

558
00:28:17,000 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 2: specifically commenting and trying to engage Zizz in different conversations,

559
00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 2: pretending to be multiple different people to quote unquote sabotage

560
00:28:24,840 --> 00:28:28,159
Speaker 2: the whole. She believed another woman in the community, Emma Borhanian,

561
00:28:28,480 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: had on Zizz and Borhanian is that former Google engineer. Okay,

562
00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:36,119
Speaker 2: so this is you know, this is part of the

563
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:39,400
Speaker 2: messy thing, is that like these people are all influencing

564
00:28:39,440 --> 00:28:42,160
Speaker 2: each other and trying to like their kind of go

565
00:28:42,240 --> 00:28:45,400
Speaker 2: to is like mind games to fuck with each other's heads.

566
00:28:45,760 --> 00:28:49,720
Speaker 3: Yeah, not a lot of straight conversation. Huh.

567
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:55,640
Speaker 2: No, Now, Imma Borhanian, who Jamie alleges his life girlfriend. No,

568
00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:59,600
Speaker 2: Jamie's dating Alice Monday. I'm sorry, but Borhanian is this

569
00:28:59,680 --> 00:29:02,040
Speaker 2: former Google engineer who has been with Ziz since the

570
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: Rationalist Fleet days. And Jamie thinks that she's controlling Ziz

571
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:09,400
Speaker 2: and she has like this bad influence that's leading them in.

572
00:29:09,400 --> 00:29:10,120
Speaker 3: A bad direction.

573
00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:14,880
Speaker 2: And I've read Borhanian's blog too, because of course I

574
00:29:14,960 --> 00:29:19,120
Speaker 2: had to. Emma is she was as long winded as Ziz,

575
00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:22,360
Speaker 2: fewer pop culture references. She wrote a lot about narcissism,

576
00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:25,400
Speaker 2: but unlike most of these people, she tended to use

577
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 2: a or She's like, I don't know, I don't understand

578
00:29:29,240 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: the kind of points she's trying to make about narcissist,

579
00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:33,360
Speaker 2: but she's very interested in the idea of like how

580
00:29:33,480 --> 00:29:37,720
Speaker 2: narcissists work. Jamie didn't like Emma, and she claims that

581
00:29:37,760 --> 00:29:40,200
Speaker 2: because Emma and another member of the community had started

582
00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 2: shit talking Alice to Ziz and convinced her that Alice

583
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:46,280
Speaker 2: was double evil. So Jamie creates all these sock puppet

584
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,960
Speaker 2: accounts to argue with Ziz with the goal of fucking

585
00:29:49,000 --> 00:29:52,240
Speaker 2: with her head and making her distrust Emma quote, I

586
00:29:52,280 --> 00:29:54,760
Speaker 2: adopted a variety of different personas, many of whom claim

587
00:29:54,800 --> 00:29:56,760
Speaker 2: to have beliefs I've never held her endorsed for the

588
00:29:56,800 --> 00:29:59,320
Speaker 2: sake of determining how Ziz would react to these characters.

589
00:30:00,200 --> 00:30:02,600
Speaker 3: So this isn't what and then what?

590
00:30:02,960 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, There's never seems to be a plan behind

591
00:30:05,480 --> 00:30:10,240
Speaker 2: fuck with each other's mental health constantly. It's like this

592
00:30:10,400 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: is because they're always there's all these overlapping fields of

593
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:15,800
Speaker 2: influence between all of these mostly women, and everyone is

594
00:30:15,800 --> 00:30:19,480
Speaker 2: fucking with each other's heads deliberately and also constantly trying

595
00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:23,080
Speaker 2: to hack and upgrade each other. Is basically scientology in

596
00:30:23,120 --> 00:30:26,280
Speaker 2: the form of a codependent friend group, right, Like, that's

597
00:30:26,320 --> 00:30:31,320
Speaker 2: what that's what's happening. Wow, this is so bad for everybody.

598
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,880
Speaker 3: It's oh man, it just they just dig deeper and

599
00:30:34,920 --> 00:30:35,600
Speaker 3: deeper and deeper.

600
00:30:35,800 --> 00:30:38,760
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, that's what happens. Again if you don't this

601
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:42,160
Speaker 2: is the you know, the touch grasp has been turned online.

602
00:30:42,160 --> 00:30:45,120
Speaker 2: People have some, as you said, some problematic ways of

603
00:30:45,160 --> 00:30:47,400
Speaker 2: discussing it. But this is the importance of like turning

604
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: out from your weird little subculture right now and again, and.

605
00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:54,640
Speaker 3: Like, yes, definitely, because the world. How often are they

606
00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:59,200
Speaker 3: interacting with all the world, like in general.

607
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 2: Very rarely, And most of the people they do interact

608
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:03,640
Speaker 2: with are like these other people who are kind of

609
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:05,920
Speaker 2: on the edge of dropping out of society, living on

610
00:31:05,960 --> 00:31:10,680
Speaker 2: this guy's property, this eighty year old dance and extracts.

611
00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:16,480
Speaker 3: Who. Yeah.

612
00:31:17,520 --> 00:31:20,560
Speaker 2: So, while Jamie and Zizz are fighting online, COVID hit

613
00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:22,840
Speaker 2: and with it comes that eviction moratory in the state

614
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,480
Speaker 2: of California. So Ziz and her friends they stop paying

615
00:31:26,520 --> 00:31:29,920
Speaker 2: rent to to lend, either because they're broke or just

616
00:31:29,960 --> 00:31:33,040
Speaker 2: because they don't need to anymore. And more than a

617
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: year goes by. In April of twenty twenty one, Ziz

618
00:31:35,800 --> 00:31:38,720
Speaker 2: posts this to her blog. Housing in places like the

619
00:31:38,760 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 2: Bay Area is a hierarchy of rent seekers and the

620
00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:46,200
Speaker 2: rent seekers above landlords rule by rules, surplus, selective enforcement, fear, uncertainty,

621
00:31:46,200 --> 00:31:48,880
Speaker 2: and doubt corruption. It's all a complex and it makes

622
00:31:49,000 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 2: landlords incredibly vulnerable to blackmail from someone who can do

623
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,880
Speaker 2: even a little bit of investigative work. It's bad praxice

624
00:31:54,920 --> 00:31:55,720
Speaker 2: to pay them rent.

625
00:31:56,720 --> 00:32:00,360
Speaker 3: So again, she get it. I get it.

626
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:03,000
Speaker 2: But this is also going to lead you to a

627
00:32:03,040 --> 00:32:07,760
Speaker 2: bad place. This is where we get to divergent stories.

628
00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: Curtis Lynde, the landlord's story is that he was very

629
00:32:10,800 --> 00:32:13,400
Speaker 2: supportive of these people and of trans people in general,

630
00:32:13,520 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 2: taking one Zizi and out to shop for her first bra.

631
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:18,800
Speaker 2: His friends and family say he was a decent guy.

632
00:32:18,920 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 2: And I actually, when I started talking about writing these

633
00:32:21,360 --> 00:32:23,479
Speaker 2: episodes on Blue Sky, someone chimed in to say they

634
00:32:23,520 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 2: had known him too, and that he was a nice person.

635
00:32:25,800 --> 00:32:28,520
Speaker 2: I don't know to ziz He was a landlord, and

636
00:32:28,560 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 2: there are claims from the Zizians that he was verbally

637
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:34,239
Speaker 2: abusive and transphobic. By the end of twenty twenty one,

638
00:32:34,320 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 2: after a year and a half of unpaid rent, Lynde

639
00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:39,440
Speaker 2: had started working on the process of having police vic them.

640
00:32:39,760 --> 00:32:42,760
Speaker 2: He and other residents claimed that the Zizzians had become aggressive,

641
00:32:42,840 --> 00:32:46,120
Speaker 2: acting as if the property was theirs, now threatening other people,

642
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 2: basically squatting on it, and like being violent at times,

643
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:52,479
Speaker 2: including like throwing rocks at Lynn's cabin and brandishing knives

644
00:32:52,520 --> 00:32:53,200
Speaker 2: at other people.

645
00:32:53,680 --> 00:32:55,200
Speaker 3: Sore knives.

646
00:32:55,400 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, they have taken to like threateningly playing with

647
00:32:58,560 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: knives while talking about how they will not leave the

648
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:04,640
Speaker 2: property or pay rent, And you get the feeling like

649
00:33:05,800 --> 00:33:08,720
Speaker 2: I'm not again, I'm not against the idea that this

650
00:33:09,120 --> 00:33:13,240
Speaker 2: again ambitious slumlord may have done some problematic things, but

651
00:33:13,320 --> 00:33:15,479
Speaker 2: it sounds like the Zizzi ends are being pretty deeply

652
00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,920
Speaker 2: abusive to everyone around them right right, which is also

653
00:33:19,280 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: they believe is praxis. Is like these other people who

654
00:33:22,960 --> 00:33:26,160
Speaker 2: are not who don't who aren't double good, and who

655
00:33:26,200 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: aren't aware of the great work they're not working towards

656
00:33:28,600 --> 00:33:30,880
Speaker 2: the cause they're a causal is the term they're use.

657
00:33:31,160 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 2: Their lives don't really have value if you're not working

658
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:35,560
Speaker 2: for the cost. Ziz earlier will decide.

659
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:37,560
Speaker 3: It's not like they're doing outreach, right, It's not like

660
00:33:37,600 --> 00:33:40,040
Speaker 3: they're trying to convert their neighbors or anything like that.

661
00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 2: They're trying to convert rationalists, but they don't care about

662
00:33:43,240 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: these weirdos living on the property with them, right right,

663
00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:49,560
Speaker 2: and again, remember, like Ziz had earlier decided that it

664
00:33:49,600 --> 00:33:52,320
Speaker 2: would be worth four human lives for her to like

665
00:33:52,440 --> 00:33:54,600
Speaker 2: get a she would kill four people to get a

666
00:33:54,640 --> 00:33:56,680
Speaker 2: shower before work, right, basically.

667
00:33:56,560 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 3: With the yeah, yeah, yeah, so that these people don't

668
00:33:59,280 --> 00:33:59,400
Speaker 3: have a.

669
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,200
Speaker 2: Lot of value for other people right now. The court

670
00:34:02,240 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 2: case over the protest arrests dragged on, and in November

671
00:34:05,080 --> 00:34:08,160
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty one, Ziz and her friends who'd been

672
00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:11,480
Speaker 2: arrested filed a countersuit against Sonoma County, as well as

673
00:34:11,480 --> 00:34:14,600
Speaker 2: several individuals associated with Sea Far and the venue. By

674
00:34:14,640 --> 00:34:16,919
Speaker 2: the time twenty twenty two starts, the pressure is on

675
00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 2: for Ziz and the people living with her to figure

676
00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,160
Speaker 2: out what they're going to do next. They do, at

677
00:34:21,239 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 2: some point work at a deal with Curtis Will, who

678
00:34:23,000 --> 00:34:24,879
Speaker 2: give them a little more time to fix their RV

679
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:27,840
Speaker 2: if they promise to bounce as soon as possible. Ziz

680
00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:30,440
Speaker 2: is no longer actively adding to her blog, but she's

681
00:34:30,440 --> 00:34:34,640
Speaker 2: still responding to comments and communicating with other sympathetic rationalists Regularly.

682
00:34:35,040 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 2: She becomes much more focused in her writing in this

683
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:41,080
Speaker 2: period on vengeance, violence, and death, as do others in

684
00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: her community. Per Wired quote, Lesta and others wrote, a

685
00:34:44,800 --> 00:34:48,440
Speaker 2: vengeance against the timeless decisions of others. If you truly

686
00:34:48,520 --> 00:34:52,600
Speaker 2: irreconcilably disagree with someone's creative choice i e. Their choice

687
00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 2: extending arbitrarily, fallen far into the past and future, ultimately

688
00:34:56,680 --> 00:34:59,719
Speaker 2: your only recourse is to kill them one, Lesoda ally

689
00:34:59,800 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 2: wrote in a long blog post citing Zizz's philosophies. In

690
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:05,840
Speaker 2: the comments, Losoda wrote, I am so fucking glad to

691
00:35:05,920 --> 00:35:12,600
Speaker 2: finally have an equal treat stuff. In spring of twenty

692
00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 2: twenty one, one of the Rationalist Fleet veterans close to Zizz,

693
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:19,320
Speaker 2: Jay Winterford, who went by the name Fluttershy, killed themselves.

694
00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:24,600
Speaker 2: They had Winterford had written about seeing Zizz's techniques as

695
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,720
Speaker 2: a way to deal with his childhood trauma, and Lesoda

696
00:35:27,800 --> 00:35:30,880
Speaker 2: wrote on her blog about her repeated attempts to fix

697
00:35:30,960 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 2: and upgrade him. Now, Ziz wrote about this person and

698
00:35:35,280 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: calls him a death knight, And as best as I

699
00:35:37,520 --> 00:35:39,799
Speaker 2: can tell, a death knight is a Zizi in term

700
00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:42,200
Speaker 2: for someone who snaps and murders a bunch of people.

701
00:35:42,440 --> 00:35:44,439
Speaker 2: She calls Hitler a death knight, but she also uses

702
00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:47,360
Speaker 2: the term for mass shooters, and she claims Winterford quote

703
00:35:47,520 --> 00:35:49,799
Speaker 2: tried very hard to convince me and then us to

704
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:52,360
Speaker 2: join them in service of the Goddess of rape and death.

705
00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:54,839
Speaker 2: Straight up declared intentions to kill us, did a bunch

706
00:35:54,880 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 2: of horrible shit, like said they were going to do

707
00:35:56,560 --> 00:35:59,239
Speaker 2: even more horrible shit. I spent about seven months, most

708
00:35:59,280 --> 00:36:01,480
Speaker 2: of every day in a desperate and mutual mental battle

709
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 2: trying to get in their head somehow how understand this

710
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:06,319
Speaker 2: death drive thing I couldn't simulate in my own mind

711
00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:08,480
Speaker 2: that made no sense, and out predict them like all

712
00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:10,400
Speaker 2: their lives in the world depended on it. And basically

713
00:36:10,520 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 2: this person's talking about doing like a mass shooting or

714
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:16,439
Speaker 2: some other terrorist attack against the rationalist community in Ziz's name,

715
00:36:16,960 --> 00:36:19,960
Speaker 2: and Ziz claims that she's like spent seven months trying

716
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:24,000
Speaker 2: to stop them from doing this, and then finally they

717
00:36:24,120 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 2: just kill themselves rather than killing anybody else. And again

718
00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:30,960
Speaker 2: they framed Ziz froms is like their heroic battle to

719
00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:34,120
Speaker 2: stop this person from murdering other people and damaging the cause.

720
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:35,480
Speaker 3: But like, I don't know.

721
00:36:35,480 --> 00:36:39,200
Speaker 2: Maybe maybe like this person needed professional help when they

722
00:36:39,200 --> 00:36:41,879
Speaker 2: started talking about wanting to do a mass killing when

723
00:36:41,880 --> 00:36:43,680
Speaker 2: it's running to murder a bunch of people, maybe they

724
00:36:43,719 --> 00:36:45,959
Speaker 2: needed help, like not your help.

725
00:36:48,000 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 3: I don't know if anyone needs Zizz's help. No, No,

726
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 3: Ziz does not even needs help. No.

727
00:36:53,440 --> 00:36:56,600
Speaker 2: And she weaves this person's death into this very this

728
00:36:56,880 --> 00:36:59,800
Speaker 2: messianic hero's journey for herself posting this in the summer

729
00:36:59,800 --> 00:37:03,160
Speaker 2: of time. Two since posting this, I have been tortured,

730
00:37:03,200 --> 00:37:06,000
Speaker 2: survived seven assassination attempts, three more attempts to do me

731
00:37:06,040 --> 00:37:09,160
Speaker 2: permanent bodily harm. Four people individually decided they had the

732
00:37:09,200 --> 00:37:11,520
Speaker 2: sole rights to be my death love arch nemesis, as

733
00:37:11,520 --> 00:37:14,560
Speaker 2: if they'd be alone. Accidentally exposed myself to a one

734
00:37:14,760 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 2: hundredth of my hell, and one committed suicide. Others utterly

735
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:21,080
Speaker 2: mentally cracked. No one knows what she's talking about with

736
00:37:21,120 --> 00:37:25,640
Speaker 2: these assassination attempts. There all just someone may have given

737
00:37:25,680 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 2: her a mean look at a grocery store, and she's

738
00:37:28,200 --> 00:37:31,439
Speaker 2: just right, like that's the mind STAPs out right.

739
00:37:32,480 --> 00:37:33,800
Speaker 3: Yeah.

740
00:37:33,920 --> 00:37:36,680
Speaker 2: Rationalists who had declared as a cult leader considered all

741
00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,040
Speaker 2: of this further evidence that she was dangerous again. Rationalists

742
00:37:41,040 --> 00:37:44,000
Speaker 2: also convinced people to kill themselves be alogic traps, but like,

743
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 2: they're not wrong to point this out now. I brought

744
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:51,560
Speaker 2: up Jamie's Ashco and Alice Monday a little earlier. They

745
00:37:51,560 --> 00:37:53,680
Speaker 2: had moved out of the Bay in late twenty twenty

746
00:37:53,719 --> 00:37:56,880
Speaker 2: and headed to Vermont, where Jamie, who had some family money,

747
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,480
Speaker 2: bought land in a gun. In February of twenty two,

748
00:38:00,560 --> 00:38:02,920
Speaker 2: she made a blog post with the subtitle I trolled

749
00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,600
Speaker 2: Ziz and now she wants to murder me. In it,

750
00:38:05,680 --> 00:38:07,600
Speaker 2: she claimed, she talks about how, like, yeah, she made

751
00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,439
Speaker 2: all these fake accounts, and in late twenty twenty one,

752
00:38:10,480 --> 00:38:13,240
Speaker 2: she and Ziz finally start talking under their real names,

753
00:38:13,640 --> 00:38:16,439
Speaker 2: and Ziz talks about these trolling messages from the fake

754
00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 2: accounts Jamie had made, and like said that they really

755
00:38:18,600 --> 00:38:21,200
Speaker 2: fucked with her head. And so Jamie, who's starting to

756
00:38:21,280 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 2: view Zizz as a friend, comes out and admits what

757
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:27,279
Speaker 2: she did, and Ziz responds by saying, the only way

758
00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 2: you can make this right is to murder your like

759
00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,719
Speaker 2: girlfriend ex girlfriends. A little unclear, Alice Monday, my old

760
00:38:33,760 --> 00:38:35,640
Speaker 2: mentor like, you have to kill this person for me

761
00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:39,680
Speaker 2: in order to make this right. Here's what Jamie writes.

762
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:42,400
Speaker 2: During her last phone call, Ziz informed me that the

763
00:38:42,440 --> 00:38:44,160
Speaker 2: only way I could gain her trust and make up

764
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: for what I did was to murder Alice, preferably sometime soon.

765
00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:50,080
Speaker 2: Ziz helpfully suggested I use a gun with a potato

766
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,719
Speaker 2: as a makeshift suppressor, and that I might destroy the

767
00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:55,279
Speaker 2: body with lie, and then told me that after I

768
00:38:55,280 --> 00:38:58,240
Speaker 2: should video call Ziz and show her the body before

769
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,360
Speaker 2: I destroy it so she could get proof bositive that

770
00:39:00,400 --> 00:39:02,600
Speaker 2: I'd really done it, and if I didn't do it,

771
00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,640
Speaker 2: Ziz plan to drive across the entire entire continental United

772
00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:06,560
Speaker 2: States to murder me.

773
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:13,279
Speaker 3: Great, the di is cast, the die is cast. Now shit.

774
00:39:14,480 --> 00:39:17,600
Speaker 2: Jamie says that Ziz wants Alice dead because she thinks

775
00:39:17,640 --> 00:39:20,239
Speaker 2: Alice is a mentor and she's got this whole Sith

776
00:39:20,320 --> 00:39:22,560
Speaker 2: thing going on, so she's like, guess with the sith

777
00:39:22,640 --> 00:39:25,320
Speaker 2: always kill their mentor. So I have to kill Alice

778
00:39:25,680 --> 00:39:27,440
Speaker 2: or I can't get powerful enough to.

779
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:31,800
Speaker 3: Save the world. Great, it's crazy.

780
00:39:32,160 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 2: I love philosophy, A story that has escalated so crazy

781
00:39:35,880 --> 00:39:38,160
Speaker 2: it is wild to hear it, where it's like, okay,

782
00:39:38,200 --> 00:39:40,880
Speaker 2: this is where, this is where it starts the wheel

783
00:39:40,960 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 2: start to really this is where that border patrol officer's

784
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:45,279
Speaker 2: death becomes inevitable.

785
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,439
Speaker 3: Yeah, because now you feel like us backed herself into

786
00:39:49,440 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 3: a corner where someone's going to die. Yes, someone like

787
00:39:51,960 --> 00:39:55,520
Speaker 3: talking about it. You're threatening it, seriously, you're telling it like,

788
00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:58,760
Speaker 3: at this point, right is someone this is going to happen?

789
00:39:59,000 --> 00:40:03,600
Speaker 2: At this point if outside power comes in to disrupt

790
00:40:03,719 --> 00:40:07,680
Speaker 2: these thought chains and decision chains, someone is going to die.

791
00:40:07,719 --> 00:40:10,759
Speaker 2: And no one does come in, right, and several people die?

792
00:40:11,520 --> 00:40:14,400
Speaker 3: I mean, how could it someone rationally even? How could I?

793
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:18,319
Speaker 3: How could right? How could how could someone even get there?

794
00:40:18,480 --> 00:40:19,480
Speaker 3: How do you think about.

795
00:40:20,760 --> 00:40:23,480
Speaker 2: You think about something like fifty one, fifty this this

796
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,400
Speaker 2: fluttershy person, right or fifty or fifties?

797
00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:26,560
Speaker 1: Is?

798
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 3: Does that make it better? Probably not?

799
00:40:28,280 --> 00:40:31,600
Speaker 2: Probably just makes them even more paranoid and angry and

800
00:40:31,640 --> 00:40:32,880
Speaker 2: convince to do violence.

801
00:40:33,440 --> 00:40:35,439
Speaker 3: You're like eleventh assassination.

802
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,600
Speaker 2: I don't know how you fix this at this point.

803
00:40:40,400 --> 00:40:43,440
Speaker 3: No, No, it's it's it might be is I think

804
00:40:43,440 --> 00:40:44,560
Speaker 3: it might be too far gone?

805
00:40:45,040 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, there's there's I'm sure there's some possible way that

806
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,279
Speaker 2: this could have been fixed, but it's not clear to.

807
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 3: Me, and who who would be the person, doesn't right,

808
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:56,200
Speaker 3: who would be the person to do it? Maybe get

809
00:40:56,239 --> 00:40:59,520
Speaker 3: George Lucas in there. George yes, Oh my god, that's.

810
00:40:59,360 --> 00:41:02,680
Speaker 2: So so Ladies have taken your movies way too seriously.

811
00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,840
Speaker 2: We need George sound and talk them out of committing murders.

812
00:41:07,000 --> 00:41:09,480
Speaker 3: This is gonna sound crazy. There's a bunch of people

813
00:41:09,480 --> 00:41:11,399
Speaker 3: in a box truck wanting to kill in your name.

814
00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 3: Get Ricky Gervase.

815
00:41:14,640 --> 00:41:17,520
Speaker 2: Get Ricky Gervas and George Lucas on a fun chopper,

816
00:41:17,719 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 2: get him in here on a black They gotta talk

817
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:20,560
Speaker 2: these people down.

818
00:41:23,840 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 3: Oh shit, fuck, oh man, it's so funny.

819
00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:33,520
Speaker 2: Just a week later, George Lucas is completely in the cult.

820
00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:34,920
Speaker 2: He's wearing all black.

821
00:41:34,640 --> 00:41:43,520
Speaker 3: He's living no no, no, no. So he's writing. It's

822
00:41:43,560 --> 00:41:46,000
Speaker 3: not even fan fiction. He's writing canonical.

823
00:41:45,520 --> 00:41:53,920
Speaker 2: Stars, writing canonical star wars. Ponder that and ponder these ads,

824
00:41:53,960 --> 00:42:02,880
Speaker 2: my friends. We'll be back with more. So we're back now.

825
00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:05,480
Speaker 2: Jamie is one of the few people who is like

826
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,680
Speaker 2: as good at manipulating zizz as zizz at other people

827
00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,520
Speaker 2: in this community. And after zis is like, hey, look

828
00:42:11,800 --> 00:42:14,239
Speaker 2: very high mana this is like, look, I'll have to

829
00:42:14,320 --> 00:42:16,120
Speaker 2: kill you if you don't kill Alice, you know, and

830
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:18,240
Speaker 2: you know I'll do it because it's a timeless decision.

831
00:42:19,040 --> 00:42:22,440
Speaker 2: Jamie counters in a very effective way by saying, like

832
00:42:22,560 --> 00:42:26,000
Speaker 2: making a blog post saying Ziz said all this, I

833
00:42:26,040 --> 00:42:28,879
Speaker 2: am not suicidal. If I die, it's her, and also

834
00:42:28,960 --> 00:42:31,400
Speaker 2: letting Ziz know quote I have friends who will avenge me.

835
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,160
Speaker 2: Murdering Alice or me now is tantamount to committing suicide

836
00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,560
Speaker 2: by proxy. So they have this like checkmate counter checkmate,

837
00:42:39,800 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 2: chess match in blog posts that gets interrupted in March

838
00:42:43,719 --> 00:42:47,080
Speaker 2: when Gwynn fakes her death, probably to escape the litigation,

839
00:42:47,200 --> 00:42:47,640
Speaker 2: they're all.

840
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, Gwinn, get out of here.

841
00:42:50,960 --> 00:42:54,360
Speaker 2: Gwinn does make the good decision because sometime after faking

842
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:57,439
Speaker 2: her death she bounces from this whole community. She does

843
00:42:57,520 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 2: get out of there.

844
00:42:58,560 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 3: Okay, there was just.

845
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 1: No way this story was going to end without a

846
00:43:01,880 --> 00:43:03,759
Speaker 1: deaf somebody faking their own death.

847
00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,720
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Sophie, so excited for you. This story doesn't

848
00:43:07,719 --> 00:43:11,160
Speaker 2: even end. This story like Late middles with two death fakings,

849
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,920
Speaker 2: because in September of twenty twenty two, Zizz fakes her

850
00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:18,680
Speaker 2: death in a boding accident on the Black Signet. Emma

851
00:43:18,680 --> 00:43:22,680
Speaker 2: calls the cops says that she fell overboard the Coastguard.

852
00:43:22,680 --> 00:43:24,799
Speaker 2: They work so hard to try to find her and

853
00:43:24,840 --> 00:43:27,279
Speaker 2: save her that they get fatigue waivers so they can

854
00:43:27,320 --> 00:43:30,560
Speaker 2: work all night. But they find nothing because she's not dead.

855
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:32,600
Speaker 3: On the block signal.

856
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:36,840
Speaker 2: I don't know where she actually was, but she doesn't.

857
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:41,040
Speaker 2: She's not dead. Zizz is declared dead and her of

858
00:43:41,080 --> 00:43:47,480
Speaker 2: her family prints an obituary. Like Gwinn's death, faking is

859
00:43:47,520 --> 00:43:50,920
Speaker 2: a little less successful. Like their lawyer in court after

860
00:43:51,120 --> 00:43:53,399
Speaker 2: they come in with legal evidence that Zizz is dead.

861
00:43:53,680 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 2: Gwin's law here is like, I really don't think they're dead.

862
00:43:56,280 --> 00:44:00,640
Speaker 2: I think they're faking it.

863
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:03,360
Speaker 1: What an a lawyer.

864
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,200
Speaker 2: These lawyers don't like they don't like their lawyers.

865
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: Well, now that's where they fucked up. You can't your

866
00:44:12,760 --> 00:44:14,960
Speaker 1: lawyer has to ride for you.

867
00:44:15,320 --> 00:44:22,480
Speaker 2: Yeah that look l Ron, who knows what they're talking about?

868
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:28,360
Speaker 2: These people at this this is what's going on. The

869
00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 2: sanest decision one of them is made is to fake

870
00:44:31,040 --> 00:44:31,600
Speaker 2: their death.

871
00:44:33,280 --> 00:44:36,920
Speaker 3: More lawyers in this story, maybe maybe a couple of lawyers.

872
00:44:36,920 --> 00:44:38,239
Speaker 3: A digital could have fixed this.

873
00:44:39,040 --> 00:44:43,160
Speaker 2: So I don't know precisely the lawyer money. No, these

874
00:44:43,160 --> 00:44:47,960
Speaker 2: are these are public defenders. So Gwynn clearly fakes their

875
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 2: death just to clear themselves of their legal problems. I

876
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:53,839
Speaker 2: think does it for that, But also she and her

877
00:44:53,880 --> 00:44:56,480
Speaker 2: closest friends are now plotting the murder of Curtis Lynde.

878
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,360
Speaker 3: We don't really, Yeah, that's the la now.

879
00:45:00,360 --> 00:45:02,719
Speaker 2: They want to kill Curtis, Yes, yes, they want to

880
00:45:02,800 --> 00:45:04,000
Speaker 2: kill Curtism.

881
00:45:04,719 --> 00:45:06,319
Speaker 3: They want to stay on the land? Is that the

882
00:45:06,400 --> 00:45:07,600
Speaker 3: kind of the thought.

883
00:45:07,680 --> 00:45:09,480
Speaker 2: I think they want to stay on the land. I

884
00:45:09,520 --> 00:45:13,080
Speaker 2: think they also their escalation logic is that if he

885
00:45:13,200 --> 00:45:16,200
Speaker 2: is having the Cops evict us, that is a situation

886
00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,040
Speaker 2: that could end in our deaths. So he's trying to

887
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: murder us, so the logical thing for us to do

888
00:45:20,200 --> 00:45:21,879
Speaker 2: is to kill him now to protect us both from

889
00:45:21,920 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 2: him and from other people, and.

890
00:45:23,239 --> 00:45:25,279
Speaker 3: Then has sex with his body. I don't.

891
00:45:25,320 --> 00:45:27,480
Speaker 2: I don't think they're going to do that, but they

892
00:45:27,520 --> 00:45:29,160
Speaker 2: are at least aware of that as an option.

893
00:45:30,600 --> 00:45:31,160
Speaker 3: So the team.

894
00:45:31,640 --> 00:45:35,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the reality of what happens next is a

895
00:45:35,080 --> 00:45:37,600
Speaker 2: little bit in dispute. But what no one disagrees is

896
00:45:37,600 --> 00:45:39,600
Speaker 2: that on November thirteenth, twenty twenty two, this is like

897
00:45:39,840 --> 00:45:43,680
Speaker 2: right after midnight, Curtis Lynde is stabbed repeatedly and impaled

898
00:45:43,680 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 2: with a samurai sword. He also, during the same altercation,

899
00:45:47,280 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 2: shoots and kills Imma Borhanian and wounds another member of

900
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,840
Speaker 2: the group. And one Tumblr post, a Zizion with the

901
00:45:53,960 --> 00:45:56,880
Speaker 2: username A Flower by another Name gives what I think

902
00:45:57,080 --> 00:46:01,080
Speaker 2: is probably a representative example of how the Zizians want

903
00:46:01,120 --> 00:46:04,520
Speaker 2: to depict what happened next. What happened here kurt quote,

904
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:08,320
Speaker 2: Curtis Lynde and his ex CIA best friend Patrick McMillan

905
00:46:08,400 --> 00:46:11,360
Speaker 2: spent months threatening Emma and her friends. Unlike what the

906
00:46:11,400 --> 00:46:14,120
Speaker 2: papers claim, Emma and her friends weren't squatters. They were

907
00:46:14,120 --> 00:46:16,239
Speaker 2: tenants who were struggling to find jobs or a place

908
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: that would least to them after Mierkan Seafar called a

909
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:20,920
Speaker 2: swat team on them in twenty nineteen.

910
00:46:21,600 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 3: Now, I don't know.

911
00:46:22,880 --> 00:46:24,920
Speaker 2: If McMillan was in the CIA, and I don't know

912
00:46:24,920 --> 00:46:27,319
Speaker 2: if he and Curtis threatened these ladies, but I will

913
00:46:27,320 --> 00:46:30,719
Speaker 2: say the preponderance of evidence suggests they were in fact squatting.

914
00:46:31,120 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: This account blames them on not being able to make

915
00:46:33,160 --> 00:46:35,200
Speaker 2: rent on their legal bills, but by this point they

916
00:46:35,200 --> 00:46:37,920
Speaker 2: had been squatting for like two years in change. I

917
00:46:37,920 --> 00:46:40,719
Speaker 2: don't know if Lynde was transphobic, I don't know.

918
00:46:41,080 --> 00:46:41,319
Speaker 3: You know.

919
00:46:42,239 --> 00:46:44,720
Speaker 2: They say he alienated them from their neighbors by telling

920
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:46,080
Speaker 2: them that they were in a cult. I don't know

921
00:46:46,080 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 2: if that's true, or if they alienated their neighbors by

922
00:46:48,719 --> 00:46:53,000
Speaker 2: being very off putting and aggressive. This Zizian account claims

923
00:46:53,000 --> 00:46:56,040
Speaker 2: that other individuals started threatening to call the cops on

924
00:46:56,080 --> 00:46:58,520
Speaker 2: the Zizians and thus quote it was an unending nightmare

925
00:46:58,520 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 2: for them of terrifying, insane threats from every corner. Now,

926
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,600
Speaker 2: the author of this document says they weren't there themselves,

927
00:47:05,120 --> 00:47:09,000
Speaker 2: but believes heard, like other members of the community, explain

928
00:47:09,080 --> 00:47:12,680
Speaker 2: what happened, and they said that lynd made specific threats

929
00:47:12,719 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 2: in the fall of twenty twenty two, which culminated in

930
00:47:15,280 --> 00:47:17,560
Speaker 2: one member of the group buying a bulletproof veest and

931
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,800
Speaker 2: wearing it at all times. I don't trust this account,

932
00:47:21,080 --> 00:47:23,200
Speaker 2: and among other things, it lies about the nature of

933
00:47:23,200 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: their living situation. It lies by saying Emma had filed

934
00:47:26,680 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 2: paperwork to take Curtis to court over the eviction. There

935
00:47:29,680 --> 00:47:34,279
Speaker 2: was no court thing filed here. There's a very good

936
00:47:34,520 --> 00:47:37,120
Speaker 2: comprehensive source on this by an individual who goes by

937
00:47:37,200 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 2: Ken the Cowboy on Twitter, and he notes in this

938
00:47:40,120 --> 00:47:42,799
Speaker 2: timeline of events, the last sentence is not true. There's

939
00:47:42,800 --> 00:47:45,000
Speaker 2: no record of any lawsuit being filed in twenty twenty

940
00:47:45,000 --> 00:47:47,120
Speaker 2: two with any of the Zizians as plaintiffs and with

941
00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 2: Curtis Lynde as a defendant. So they claim basically, this

942
00:47:52,120 --> 00:47:54,359
Speaker 2: guy was aggressive and threatening us, and one day he

943
00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:58,200
Speaker 2: attacked us, right quote. That morning he decided to stop them.

944
00:47:58,239 --> 00:47:59,680
Speaker 2: He walked all the way from his trailer to their

945
00:47:59,680 --> 00:48:02,160
Speaker 2: trucks while they were packing their things and opened fire.

946
00:48:02,560 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 2: Lynde shot Emma point blank through her heart and lung.

947
00:48:05,120 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: She collapsed to the ground and immediately her lung began

948
00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:09,960
Speaker 2: filling with her heart's blood. She died within twenty seconds,

949
00:48:10,080 --> 00:48:12,360
Speaker 2: violently coughing up chunks of her lung tissue and a

950
00:48:12,360 --> 00:48:15,439
Speaker 2: feutal attempt to clear her airways. Soomny was shot six

951
00:48:15,480 --> 00:48:17,799
Speaker 2: times rushing in a fetal attempt to save Emma's life.

952
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,799
Speaker 2: The vest saved her life, but she was still hit

953
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,440
Speaker 2: through the neck and stomach. She acted only in self defense.

954
00:48:23,320 --> 00:48:25,960
Speaker 2: That's the Zizzian claim here, that he just walks in

955
00:48:26,080 --> 00:48:29,879
Speaker 2: as they're getting ready to leave and starts shooting them, right, Yeah,

956
00:48:29,960 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 2: that's stupid, now, that's their claim. This leaves out a

957
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:37,840
Speaker 2: very important fact, which is that Curtis Linde is stabbed

958
00:48:37,880 --> 00:48:38,960
Speaker 2: fifty times.

959
00:48:40,160 --> 00:48:40,719
Speaker 3: Fifteen.

960
00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:47,120
Speaker 2: Yes, Lind's account is somewhat less sympathetic to these people.

961
00:48:47,560 --> 00:48:50,280
Speaker 2: He claims that after getting successfully getting a judgment against

962
00:48:50,280 --> 00:48:51,839
Speaker 2: them in a court, he moved to a vict and

963
00:48:52,160 --> 00:48:54,960
Speaker 2: the sheriff agreed to do an eviction on November fifteenth.

964
00:48:55,160 --> 00:48:57,200
Speaker 2: And this is what Lynn later said, quote so they're

965
00:48:57,200 --> 00:48:58,640
Speaker 2: worried about where they were going to go and what

966
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,000
Speaker 2: they were going to do. And they had a meeting

967
00:49:00,200 --> 00:49:01,759
Speaker 2: with me, and the meeting was about them staying for

968
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,040
Speaker 2: another two months and not paying I said, no, I

969
00:49:04,080 --> 00:49:06,239
Speaker 2: can't do that. So one of them took out a knife.

970
00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:08,040
Speaker 2: It was a folding knife. It was a fairly large

971
00:49:08,040 --> 00:49:11,160
Speaker 2: folding knife. It started patting the blade in their hand

972
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:13,880
Speaker 2: like this and looking at me and smiling. And they

973
00:49:13,880 --> 00:49:18,440
Speaker 2: don't specify who this was. I don't know, like you

974
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:23,480
Speaker 2: know entirely, like which person he's accusing here or whatever.

975
00:49:23,560 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 2: But he says this is how his account of like

976
00:49:26,120 --> 00:49:31,000
Speaker 2: the attack itself is that after this, after he gets

977
00:49:31,040 --> 00:49:32,640
Speaker 2: threatened with a knife, he goes in he buys a

978
00:49:32,680 --> 00:49:35,879
Speaker 2: pistol and he gets a license to carry, and then

979
00:49:36,000 --> 00:49:37,960
Speaker 2: right before the sheriffs are supposed to show up to

980
00:49:38,000 --> 00:49:41,839
Speaker 2: evict them, one of the Zizians named Surrey shows up

981
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:44,680
Speaker 2: and she tries to get him to like come help

982
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:47,279
Speaker 2: turn the water off and her trailer. So he goes

983
00:49:47,320 --> 00:49:49,640
Speaker 2: over to there to turn the water off, and as

984
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:51,600
Speaker 2: he bins over to do that, he gets hit with

985
00:49:51,640 --> 00:49:54,520
Speaker 2: something that shatters the right side of his skull quote

986
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:56,200
Speaker 2: And the next thing I remember is standing up with

987
00:49:56,239 --> 00:49:58,000
Speaker 2: three of them right next to me, you know, or

988
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:00,400
Speaker 2: around me, And I was bleeding from numerous puncture wounds,

989
00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:02,480
Speaker 2: I think around fifty. I couldn't see out of my

990
00:50:02,560 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 2: right eye, had been punctured three times. The back of

991
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 2: my neck had some severe cuts, like someone was trying

992
00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:09,160
Speaker 2: to cut my head off. You know, I had no

993
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,320
Speaker 2: idea what was happening or when this had all happened.

994
00:50:11,360 --> 00:50:13,640
Speaker 2: I was completely gone while this was happening. And how

995
00:50:13,640 --> 00:50:15,239
Speaker 2: I stood back up or got to that spot, I

996
00:50:15,280 --> 00:50:17,000
Speaker 2: have no idea. But I looked at all the blood

997
00:50:17,000 --> 00:50:19,120
Speaker 2: coming out of me. Oh, and I had a sword,

998
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,640
Speaker 2: a long sword all the way through my chest right

999
00:50:21,640 --> 00:50:24,279
Speaker 2: next to my heart, sticking out the other end, which

1000
00:50:24,320 --> 00:50:26,239
Speaker 2: I went to the hospital with. I was afraid to

1001
00:50:26,280 --> 00:50:28,359
Speaker 2: take it out, but anyway, at that time, I pulled

1002
00:50:28,360 --> 00:50:30,760
Speaker 2: out my pistol and started shooting. I killed the person

1003
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: to my right. And I gotta say, based on the

1004
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,959
Speaker 2: physical evidence, I think Lind's account is the real one

1005
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 2: of what happens here. I think they ambush him and

1006
00:50:40,960 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: stab him repeatedly, and he shoots and kills one in

1007
00:50:43,719 --> 00:50:49,360
Speaker 2: self defense. Obvious, Like again, he has a samurai sword

1008
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:50,879
Speaker 2: entirely through his bed.

1009
00:50:50,960 --> 00:50:56,759
Speaker 3: We acknowledge that this meant took fifty to the chest eighty. Yeah,

1010
00:50:56,840 --> 00:50:58,160
Speaker 3: it don't make him like that anymore.

1011
00:50:58,760 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 2: And it's one of those one of the doubting claims

1012
00:51:01,600 --> 00:51:03,760
Speaker 2: by the Zizians is that, like, he couldn't have survived

1013
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:06,000
Speaker 2: being stabbed this many times. People survive getting stabbed a

1014
00:51:06,000 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 2: crazy amount of times all the time. It's all like,

1015
00:51:08,400 --> 00:51:10,480
Speaker 2: if you read about enough stabbing accounts, you will read

1016
00:51:10,480 --> 00:51:12,799
Speaker 2: about people who die because they get stabbed once, and

1017
00:51:12,840 --> 00:51:14,560
Speaker 2: you will read about people who live through getting like

1018
00:51:14,680 --> 00:51:20,320
Speaker 2: seventy stab wounds. It's nuts. Stabbings are very hard to predict.

1019
00:51:20,400 --> 00:51:24,120
Speaker 3: Tricky, tricky, yeah, And also it's also so worrisome because

1020
00:51:24,160 --> 00:51:26,440
Speaker 3: now they've done it, right, They've crossed that line.

1021
00:51:26,480 --> 00:51:28,880
Speaker 2: They've crossed that line, and one of them has died.

1022
00:51:29,280 --> 00:51:32,040
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, some steaks are as high as they had

1023
00:51:32,040 --> 00:51:33,480
Speaker 3: always thought that they were.

1024
00:51:34,120 --> 00:51:37,080
Speaker 2: And when the box trucks are cleaned out after they

1025
00:51:37,080 --> 00:51:39,840
Speaker 2: get arrested, the ones who had carried out the attack,

1026
00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:42,319
Speaker 2: because Ziz is on the property and I think Winn

1027
00:51:42,440 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: is too still at this point, but Ziz does not

1028
00:51:44,520 --> 00:51:48,480
Speaker 2: participate in the attack, and like cops recognize Ziz and

1029
00:51:48,600 --> 00:51:51,000
Speaker 2: know that she's faking her death and don't arrest her,

1030
00:51:51,120 --> 00:51:52,920
Speaker 2: which is one of like the weird things.

1031
00:51:53,080 --> 00:51:55,440
Speaker 3: Like they're familiar enough to know that.

1032
00:51:55,719 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think this is that because like they've been

1033
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:02,439
Speaker 2: called before. Yeah, I think that they're aware of who

1034
00:52:02,480 --> 00:52:05,120
Speaker 2: she is, but just don't do even after this mass

1035
00:52:05,120 --> 00:52:10,280
Speaker 2: stabbing shooting. Like again, the cops just don't do their jobs. Also,

1036
00:52:10,400 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 2: as part of this story, you know, it's a It's

1037
00:52:16,080 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 2: also worth noting that when they this after this arrest,

1038
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:21,800
Speaker 2: when like their box trucktsure being cleaned out, they find

1039
00:52:22,000 --> 00:52:25,839
Speaker 2: tubes of containers of lie, which you know, Ziz had

1040
00:52:25,840 --> 00:52:29,360
Speaker 2: talked to Jamie about dissolving bodies and lie. That's probably

1041
00:52:29,400 --> 00:52:33,160
Speaker 2: what the plan was with Curtis. My guess is that's

1042
00:52:33,160 --> 00:52:37,160
Speaker 2: certainly what Curtis gets convinced of. Now my thinking and

1043
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,640
Speaker 2: I can't this is not proven. I'm sure courts will try,

1044
00:52:40,719 --> 00:52:42,440
Speaker 2: will see how well they are able to do this

1045
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,799
Speaker 2: in a court. My suspicion is that Ziz orchestrated this

1046
00:52:45,840 --> 00:52:49,280
Speaker 2: attack and convinced her friends to do it, or convinced

1047
00:52:49,320 --> 00:52:51,719
Speaker 2: them to convince themselves to do it, and justified it

1048
00:52:51,840 --> 00:52:55,160
Speaker 2: using the same escalatory logic that they used on everything else.

1049
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,600
Speaker 2: On her blog, when discussing theoretical acts of deadly violence,

1050
00:52:59,719 --> 00:53:03,040
Speaker 2: Ziz referred to what she called Quirrel's algorithm from the

1051
00:53:03,080 --> 00:53:06,120
Speaker 2: Harry Potter Rationalist fan pick that these people all love,

1052
00:53:06,480 --> 00:53:08,680
Speaker 2: and she quoted this line from the book describing the

1053
00:53:08,719 --> 00:53:11,279
Speaker 2: mental state she believed was necessary to survive a life

1054
00:53:11,280 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 2: threatening situation, intent to kill, think purely of killing, grasp

1055
00:53:15,320 --> 00:53:18,799
Speaker 2: at any means to do so, censors off, do not flinch, kill.

1056
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,719
Speaker 3: Again. This Harry Potter book really now goes all the

1057
00:53:23,719 --> 00:53:24,400
Speaker 3: way back to that.

1058
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:27,839
Speaker 2: Yeah, be careful what you write, authors, You might get

1059
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:34,040
Speaker 2: someone st impaled by a samurai. Sort of course they had,

1060
00:53:34,680 --> 00:53:36,640
Speaker 2: of course they had a samurai sword. I'm sure they

1061
00:53:36,640 --> 00:53:38,480
Speaker 2: bought them all from the Budkay catalog.

1062
00:53:40,719 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 3: So Ziz had.

1063
00:53:41,440 --> 00:53:43,480
Speaker 2: Also written in late twenty twenty one in a comment

1064
00:53:43,560 --> 00:53:45,960
Speaker 2: on her blog, I get so many people lining up

1065
00:53:46,000 --> 00:53:49,000
Speaker 2: to commit suicide by Ziz and then she hyperlinks to

1066
00:53:49,000 --> 00:53:51,960
Speaker 2: the wiki for suicide by cop and her meaning is

1067
00:53:52,000 --> 00:53:54,399
Speaker 2: that anyone acting in a way to like harm her

1068
00:53:54,560 --> 00:53:57,759
Speaker 2: or her goals is killing themselves because she has to

1069
00:53:57,880 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 2: kill them now.

1070
00:53:58,880 --> 00:53:59,040
Speaker 3: Right.

1071
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:02,880
Speaker 2: And there's a good medium post by someone named Sepha

1072
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,759
Speaker 2: Shapiro that traces around how this time, how around this time,

1073
00:54:05,880 --> 00:54:08,920
Speaker 2: this is online writing becomes increasingly obsessed with the idea

1074
00:54:09,360 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 2: of using deadly violence to make oneself less vulnerable, right,

1075
00:54:13,960 --> 00:54:16,560
Speaker 2: that you again, you have to always be ready to

1076
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:21,440
Speaker 2: kill in order to protect yourself. So the police arrest

1077
00:54:21,600 --> 00:54:24,239
Speaker 2: two of her friends, Somny and Surrey Dow, who are

1078
00:54:24,239 --> 00:54:26,600
Speaker 2: the two surviving Zizians who'd taken part in the attack,

1079
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 2: and they take them to jail. Per a California law,

1080
00:54:29,560 --> 00:54:31,960
Speaker 2: these two are not just charged with trying to kill Curtis,

1081
00:54:31,960 --> 00:54:34,040
Speaker 2: but with the murder of their friend Emma. It's like

1082
00:54:34,080 --> 00:54:36,440
Speaker 2: if you know three people rob a liquor store and

1083
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:39,319
Speaker 2: one of them kills someone, the other two will get

1084
00:54:39,400 --> 00:54:41,520
Speaker 2: charged with murder because someone died in the commission of

1085
00:54:41,560 --> 00:54:43,560
Speaker 2: a crime that they were involved in. Right, it's California

1086
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,879
Speaker 2: state law. A lot of people get life sentences as

1087
00:54:45,880 --> 00:54:49,080
Speaker 2: a result of this, usually not in this exact scenario,

1088
00:54:49,239 --> 00:54:50,560
Speaker 2: but non.

1089
00:54:52,040 --> 00:54:52,560
Speaker 3: Usually not.

1090
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:59,000
Speaker 2: Soomny was placed in a men's jail and complained dow

1091
00:54:59,239 --> 00:55:01,640
Speaker 2: after being a sign into a women's jail, demanded a

1092
00:55:01,719 --> 00:55:05,200
Speaker 2: men's jail. I think this is because they were trying

1093
00:55:05,239 --> 00:55:07,200
Speaker 2: to like make a case that they weren't in their

1094
00:55:07,280 --> 00:55:09,600
Speaker 2: right mind. But it's kind of unclear to me exactly

1095
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,200
Speaker 2: why this happens. There's a lot in terms of these

1096
00:55:12,239 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 2: two and their interactions with the court system that I'm

1097
00:55:14,920 --> 00:55:20,840
Speaker 2: not gonna get into, right because it's it's just we

1098
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:23,360
Speaker 2: simply can't go down all of those rabbit holes. But

1099
00:55:23,400 --> 00:55:26,000
Speaker 2: you should know that, like the like this is a factor,

1100
00:55:26,040 --> 00:55:29,560
Speaker 2: and everyone's thinking is, like their two friends are in prison,

1101
00:55:29,760 --> 00:55:32,680
Speaker 2: they're constantly sending these letters to the judge. They're like

1102
00:55:32,760 --> 00:55:35,760
Speaker 2: making these like weird rationalist arguments in their court cases,

1103
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:38,440
Speaker 2: and like that's all going down while Zizz and the

1104
00:55:38,480 --> 00:55:41,799
Speaker 2: remainder of her inner circle kind of go on the run, right,

1105
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:45,359
Speaker 2: because you know, now they've been involved in a murder, right,

1106
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:49,440
Speaker 2: Gwynn seems to go go fully into hiding at this time.

1107
00:55:49,840 --> 00:55:52,080
Speaker 2: I don't know if that's because of the murder or

1108
00:55:52,160 --> 00:55:54,440
Speaker 2: just because she had finally had enough of Ziz and

1109
00:55:54,480 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 2: all of her talk about killing, but in any case,

1110
00:55:56,880 --> 00:56:00,319
Speaker 2: she goes to ground around this point. Now, well, all

1111
00:56:00,360 --> 00:56:02,160
Speaker 2: this is going on, I hate to keep bringing in

1112
00:56:02,200 --> 00:56:06,960
Speaker 2: new people, but there's a bunch of them. Jamie up

1113
00:56:06,960 --> 00:56:10,720
Speaker 2: in Vermont, I don't think is continuing to seeing Alice

1114
00:56:10,760 --> 00:56:13,280
Speaker 2: Monday anymore. Alice seems to have also made the wise

1115
00:56:13,320 --> 00:56:16,680
Speaker 2: decision to fucking bounce and go to ground. Jamie is

1116
00:56:16,760 --> 00:56:20,400
Speaker 2: living with another Ziz follower named Daniel Blank up in

1117
00:56:20,480 --> 00:56:23,960
Speaker 2: Vermont at this point, and Jamie has gotten increasingly into

1118
00:56:24,040 --> 00:56:27,360
Speaker 2: Ziz's ideas. Blank is one of the people we know.

1119
00:56:27,440 --> 00:56:31,439
Speaker 2: He delivers several documents to the court Onsomny's behalf during

1120
00:56:31,480 --> 00:56:33,680
Speaker 2: this whole, like after they go get charged with murder,

1121
00:56:34,040 --> 00:56:35,520
Speaker 2: and he is like a guy who has like a

1122
00:56:35,640 --> 00:56:38,400
Speaker 2: job and you know, stuff going on in his life.

1123
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:41,799
Speaker 2: And then like a month after this shooting stabbing, he

1124
00:56:41,880 --> 00:56:44,080
Speaker 2: drops out of society, cuts ties with his family, and

1125
00:56:44,160 --> 00:56:47,080
Speaker 2: quits his job to go live with Jamie and like,

1126
00:56:48,000 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 2: it's kind of a little unclear of exactly what's happening,

1127
00:56:51,320 --> 00:56:56,120
Speaker 2: but my belief is basically Jamie and the people who

1128
00:56:56,120 --> 00:56:58,440
Speaker 2: are around her who are up in Vermont, who are Zizians,

1129
00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:02,000
Speaker 2: are being before Ziz gets They're told to prepare for

1130
00:57:02,120 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 2: Ziz because they want to get access to money and

1131
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:08,279
Speaker 2: a private property, a compound right where they can both

1132
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:10,400
Speaker 2: not be on the run, have a living space and

1133
00:57:10,440 --> 00:57:13,160
Speaker 2: continue to work on their ideas. That is what I

1134
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:16,000
Speaker 2: think is happening. And Daniel blank is someone who has

1135
00:57:16,040 --> 00:57:19,200
Speaker 2: been following Ziz online, gets convinced to drop out of

1136
00:57:19,200 --> 00:57:22,440
Speaker 2: his life, cut ties with everybody move in with this

1137
00:57:22,520 --> 00:57:25,560
Speaker 2: person Jamie, and it looks like they're cient kind of

1138
00:57:25,600 --> 00:57:28,360
Speaker 2: working to like ready a situation for Ziz and the

1139
00:57:28,400 --> 00:57:33,160
Speaker 2: Zizzians in Vermont. And again there's a lot of this

1140
00:57:33,280 --> 00:57:35,480
Speaker 2: that has not been litigated yet, but what we know

1141
00:57:35,640 --> 00:57:39,160
Speaker 2: is that on December thirty first, twenty twenty two, Jamie's

1142
00:57:39,200 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 2: Ashco's parents, who are seventy two and sixty nine respectively,

1143
00:57:42,600 --> 00:57:43,959
Speaker 2: are murdered in their home.

1144
00:57:44,360 --> 00:57:47,320
Speaker 3: Oh my god, I do on the property in Vermont.

1145
00:57:47,480 --> 00:57:49,200
Speaker 2: They know they live in a separate state. They live

1146
00:57:49,240 --> 00:57:53,880
Speaker 2: in Pennsylvania. Right, But we don't know who committed this murder.

1147
00:57:53,960 --> 00:57:56,560
Speaker 2: No one has yet been charged for it. Unlike in

1148
00:57:56,640 --> 00:57:59,120
Speaker 2: the Lend stabbing, we do not have an obvious explanation.

1149
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,000
Speaker 2: There is a ring that shows an unknown vehicle pulling

1150
00:58:02,000 --> 00:58:05,920
Speaker 2: into the driveway, followed by screams. Some investigators think they

1151
00:58:05,920 --> 00:58:09,040
Speaker 2: hear someone yell mom before another person yells oh my god,

1152
00:58:09,080 --> 00:58:11,360
Speaker 2: Oh my god. But other people who have viewed the

1153
00:58:11,360 --> 00:58:14,080
Speaker 2: recording say that it's unclear if that first word is mom.

1154
00:58:14,520 --> 00:58:17,280
Speaker 2: I have not seen this recording, so I can't tell

1155
00:58:17,320 --> 00:58:21,800
Speaker 2: you what's accurate. But Zashko's parents were worth several million

1156
00:58:21,840 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 2: dollars and had a sizeable estate to inherent.

1157
00:58:24,920 --> 00:58:27,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, you said that she had bought the property initially

1158
00:58:27,320 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 3: off of family money.

1159
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:30,760
Speaker 2: Right, she's got some amount of access to it, right,

1160
00:58:31,080 --> 00:58:35,200
Speaker 2: and her last right before these people are murdered. Jamie's

1161
00:58:35,200 --> 00:58:38,720
Speaker 2: mom messages with Jamie earlier that same day about savings

1162
00:58:38,760 --> 00:58:42,360
Speaker 2: bonds that Zashco is due to receive. In blog posts

1163
00:58:42,400 --> 00:58:44,960
Speaker 2: from twenty twenty one, Zashco had written about her parents

1164
00:58:44,960 --> 00:58:48,720
Speaker 2: and repeatedly accused them of being abusers. One specific accusation

1165
00:58:48,800 --> 00:58:51,040
Speaker 2: she makes is that they snuck meat into her food

1166
00:58:51,120 --> 00:58:53,000
Speaker 2: and forced her to eat it after she expressed a

1167
00:58:53,080 --> 00:58:56,600
Speaker 2: desire to go vegan. So she has talked extensively online

1168
00:58:56,640 --> 00:59:00,680
Speaker 2: about her parents being fundamentally evil people. We know that

1169
00:59:00,960 --> 00:59:03,760
Speaker 2: at this point she lives with Daniel Blank, and that

1170
00:59:04,160 --> 00:59:07,640
Speaker 2: their phones go dark right around the time of the murder,

1171
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:10,160
Speaker 2: as if they had like placed them in a faraday bag.

1172
00:59:10,280 --> 00:59:13,560
Speaker 2: Basically okay, right, but we don't know where they are

1173
00:59:13,560 --> 00:59:16,280
Speaker 2: on the day of the murder. Police visit them in

1174
00:59:16,400 --> 00:59:19,960
Speaker 2: Vermont shortly after the murder because obviously the daughter is

1175
00:59:20,000 --> 00:59:21,920
Speaker 2: someone that you're going to think of as a potential like,

1176
00:59:21,960 --> 00:59:24,000
Speaker 2: because one of the things about the murder is that

1177
00:59:24,040 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 2: whoever did it had some degree of knowledge of the

1178
00:59:26,960 --> 00:59:29,280
Speaker 2: property and an ability to get on it without forcing

1179
00:59:29,360 --> 00:59:31,920
Speaker 2: an entry. Right, So obviously the cops they're going to think,

1180
00:59:31,920 --> 00:59:35,840
Speaker 2: who's the next of Ken, Right, So police visit them

1181
00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:38,720
Speaker 2: on their property in Vermont and talk to Blank and

1182
00:59:38,840 --> 00:59:41,440
Speaker 2: Jamie Jamie. They ask if she has a gun. Jamie

1183
00:59:41,480 --> 00:59:43,520
Speaker 2: says yes, and she shows them a handgun that she

1184
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,640
Speaker 2: owns that is the same caliber as the one used

1185
00:59:45,640 --> 00:59:47,600
Speaker 2: in the shootings. Now that doesn't necessarily mean much. It's

1186
00:59:47,640 --> 00:59:50,120
Speaker 2: a nine milimeter ton of nine.

1187
00:59:50,160 --> 00:59:50,320
Speaker 3: Right.

1188
00:59:50,920 --> 00:59:52,560
Speaker 2: There's one thing the cops will point out is that

1189
00:59:52,640 --> 00:59:55,760
Speaker 2: Zasco owned the same type of bullet, the same makeup

1190
00:59:55,800 --> 00:59:59,080
Speaker 2: bullet as those used in the shooting. But again, like

1191
00:59:59,400 --> 01:00:03,640
Speaker 2: I the bullets I use keeping my carry gun are hydroshocks,

1192
01:00:03,680 --> 01:00:05,680
Speaker 2: which is like what cops can because that's the safest

1193
01:00:05,680 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 2: thing in court if you're in a defensive shooting. You

1194
01:00:07,320 --> 01:00:09,240
Speaker 2: want to be like, I have the same bullets the

1195
01:00:09,280 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 2: cops have, right, because you don't want to have like

1196
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:15,280
Speaker 2: the the man shredder, zombie rounds or some shit. So

1197
01:00:15,320 --> 01:00:18,600
Speaker 2: the fact that like a common defensive caliber would murdered

1198
01:00:18,600 --> 01:00:21,000
Speaker 2: these people was in the gun. That's not a smoking gun,

1199
01:00:21,040 --> 01:00:22,880
Speaker 2: if you'll forgive it. But it also is like that's

1200
01:00:22,920 --> 01:00:25,880
Speaker 2: not nothing either, right, you know, like that's not nothing.

1201
01:00:26,480 --> 01:00:31,640
Speaker 3: Right. What means more.

1202
01:00:31,520 --> 01:00:34,680
Speaker 2: Is that Jamie is now the full beneficiary of her parents' estate,

1203
01:00:35,400 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 2: and while she has not been charged, an attorney for

1204
01:00:37,720 --> 01:00:41,960
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania has filed a potential slayer statute issue, which is

1205
01:00:42,000 --> 01:00:44,720
Speaker 2: a law in Pennsylvania that you can't inherit someone's stuff

1206
01:00:44,760 --> 01:00:48,720
Speaker 2: if you kill them. Right, But again, they haven't been charged.

1207
01:00:49,000 --> 01:00:51,720
Speaker 2: There's a lot of suspicious shit about this. She also

1208
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 2: lies to a relatives claiming she couldn't have driven to

1209
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:56,520
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania from Vermont because you didn't have a working car,

1210
01:00:56,760 --> 01:00:58,800
Speaker 2: and we know she did, so.

1211
01:01:00,480 --> 01:01:04,520
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, it's it's very suspicious over it.

1212
01:01:05,040 --> 01:01:09,840
Speaker 2: I don't think it's unlikely that she may have been

1213
01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:13,000
Speaker 2: basically tasked with killing her parents to get access to

1214
01:01:13,040 --> 01:01:15,480
Speaker 2: her money for the cause, their money for the cause, right,

1215
01:01:15,640 --> 01:01:19,240
Speaker 2: that's kind of my suspicion, you know. And she was

1216
01:01:19,280 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 2: partly told it was okay because they're abusive and so like,

1217
01:01:22,960 --> 01:01:25,840
Speaker 2: you maybe have to do this in order to protect

1218
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:28,640
Speaker 2: yourself and other people from abusers, which is a kind

1219
01:01:28,640 --> 01:01:32,560
Speaker 2: of logic they have too. On January thirteenth, right after midnight,

1220
01:01:32,600 --> 01:01:35,720
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania State troopers raid a hotel near the Philadelphia Airport

1221
01:01:35,760 --> 01:01:38,680
Speaker 2: where Blank and Zashko are staying. A Vermont judge had

1222
01:01:38,720 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: issued a warrant for their home, but the police had

1223
01:01:40,840 --> 01:01:43,160
Speaker 2: not found the gun they believed was the murder weapon.

1224
01:01:43,440 --> 01:01:45,400
Speaker 2: They touched that weapon when they're in Vermont, but they

1225
01:01:45,440 --> 01:01:47,919
Speaker 2: don't have a warrant for it, right, so they don't

1226
01:01:47,920 --> 01:01:51,920
Speaker 2: get to take it. Zashko was detained and the only

1227
01:01:51,960 --> 01:01:53,960
Speaker 2: one and would have been the only one detained if

1228
01:01:54,000 --> 01:01:56,760
Speaker 2: she hadn't shouted to hotel staff as they're taking her away,

1229
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:00,720
Speaker 2: tell Daniel in room one A Leffenheim being arrested, so that.

1230
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 3: Damn smooth, smooth.

1231
01:02:06,200 --> 01:02:11,520
Speaker 2: These rationalists and they're brilliant crimes oh obviously get interested

1232
01:02:11,520 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 2: in this. And they recognize Daniel's name and they find

1233
01:02:14,400 --> 01:02:17,360
Speaker 2: on surveillance footage that she has handed a bag to

1234
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:20,120
Speaker 2: him outside of his room in the night before, right,

1235
01:02:20,960 --> 01:02:23,560
Speaker 2: And they recognize his name because they visited Zashkoh and

1236
01:02:23,600 --> 01:02:25,840
Speaker 2: Blank and the Vermont home. So they get a warrant

1237
01:02:25,880 --> 01:02:27,840
Speaker 2: for his hotel room and rate it. Like an hour

1238
01:02:27,920 --> 01:02:31,080
Speaker 2: or two later, Blank is found in the bathroom next

1239
01:02:31,080 --> 01:02:33,360
Speaker 2: to a blonde person dressed in black.

1240
01:02:33,760 --> 01:02:35,360
Speaker 3: This is Ziz so.

1241
01:02:36,160 --> 01:02:42,240
Speaker 2: Oh right, yeah uh. An article by the San Francisco

1242
01:02:42,320 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 2: Chronicle explains what happened next. Blank put his hands behind

1243
01:02:45,560 --> 01:02:48,120
Speaker 2: his back and walked out of the room, obeying police commands.

1244
01:02:48,120 --> 01:02:50,120
Speaker 2: But Ziz did not do any of that. He had

1245
01:02:50,160 --> 01:02:53,120
Speaker 2: his eyes closed. A trooper testified, using masculine pronouns. He

1246
01:02:53,120 --> 01:02:55,480
Speaker 2: would not speak. He was just laying almost unconscious or

1247
01:02:55,520 --> 01:02:57,000
Speaker 2: as if he was dead on the ground. He had

1248
01:02:57,000 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 2: to be carried out again. This is I don't know

1249
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,800
Speaker 2: if it's intentional or if Ziz was like acting and

1250
01:03:03,920 --> 01:03:06,360
Speaker 2: like portraying themselves as masculine because they're on the run.

1251
01:03:06,480 --> 01:03:08,600
Speaker 2: You know, at this point in time, that's not actually

1252
01:03:08,600 --> 01:03:12,320
Speaker 2: clear to me. Whatever the case, Ziz is taken into

1253
01:03:12,360 --> 01:03:15,360
Speaker 2: custody and charged with disorderly conduct and interfering with a

1254
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:19,320
Speaker 2: police investigation. A nine millimeter handgun was found in the

1255
01:03:19,400 --> 01:03:22,720
Speaker 2: room along with AMMO. Forty thousand dollars in cash is

1256
01:03:22,760 --> 01:03:26,360
Speaker 2: found in Zashko Subaru, and again, she doesn't get charged

1257
01:03:26,400 --> 01:03:30,000
Speaker 2: with murder. They let her out very soon and she

1258
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:33,880
Speaker 2: just leaves. The cops are shot because sheet they have

1259
01:03:33,960 --> 01:03:36,080
Speaker 2: to give her back her car and the forty grand

1260
01:03:36,320 --> 01:03:39,439
Speaker 2: which she abandons. She and Blake just leave the car

1261
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:44,520
Speaker 2: and forty thousand dollars in cash. I don't think they're

1262
01:03:44,560 --> 01:03:47,640
Speaker 2: making good decisions at this point, is my only explanation

1263
01:03:47,760 --> 01:03:53,040
Speaker 2: for you, David. How Maybe it's that they're thinking, like, well,

1264
01:03:53,080 --> 01:03:55,439
Speaker 2: they put a tracker in the money, they'll track the car.

1265
01:03:55,640 --> 01:03:57,040
Speaker 3: It's not safe to have any of it.

1266
01:03:57,080 --> 01:03:59,520
Speaker 2: I don't know why they're making this decision, but it's

1267
01:03:59,680 --> 01:04:00,920
Speaker 2: very weird right.

1268
01:04:02,320 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 3: Now.

1269
01:04:03,760 --> 01:04:07,439
Speaker 2: During this same time, several other Zisians are at least

1270
01:04:07,480 --> 01:04:09,320
Speaker 2: suspected to have been coming in and out of like

1271
01:04:09,360 --> 01:04:12,520
Speaker 2: Pennsylvania during the area around the murder. It is unclear

1272
01:04:12,560 --> 01:04:15,560
Speaker 2: how many people if they were If the Zizians killed

1273
01:04:15,720 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 2: this husband and wife, it's unclear how many of them

1274
01:04:18,560 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 2: were there. And again no one has been charged. But

1275
01:04:21,840 --> 01:04:25,200
Speaker 2: it's at this point that another Zizian enters the playing field.

1276
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:28,880
Speaker 2: This person goes by the name Ophelia. They are a

1277
01:04:28,960 --> 01:04:33,400
Speaker 2: German citizen. They have like a legal residency in the US.

1278
01:04:33,480 --> 01:04:35,600
Speaker 2: Their last name is Bachholt. They used to work at

1279
01:04:35,680 --> 01:04:38,560
Speaker 2: James Street or Jane Street, which is where Sam Bankman

1280
01:04:38,600 --> 01:04:42,160
Speaker 2: Freed work. They're a quant trader, right, So this is

1281
01:04:42,160 --> 01:04:44,760
Speaker 2: someone functioning at a high level of the finance industry

1282
01:04:44,960 --> 01:04:47,840
Speaker 2: who like drops out of their career and life to

1283
01:04:47,960 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 2: go to Vermont hours like really like they fly in

1284
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:53,840
Speaker 2: like right before the murders.

1285
01:04:54,000 --> 01:04:57,000
Speaker 3: That's such a troubling theme about this whole thing, about

1286
01:04:57,000 --> 01:05:00,080
Speaker 3: how many of these people really do integrate in a

1287
01:05:00,120 --> 01:05:03,040
Speaker 3: major Like it's not just like fringe people.

1288
01:05:03,320 --> 01:05:06,520
Speaker 2: No, these are people who are successful in their other lives,

1289
01:05:06,720 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 2: but they're lacking. I think a lot of this is

1290
01:05:09,600 --> 01:05:12,680
Speaker 2: just that desperation that is also core to like fascism's

1291
01:05:12,680 --> 01:05:16,400
Speaker 2: appeal to feel like a sense of heroism, like I

1292
01:05:16,440 --> 01:05:20,360
Speaker 2: am part of a heroic struggle. People are very vulnerable

1293
01:05:20,400 --> 01:05:22,800
Speaker 2: to that. And even if if you're making the money,

1294
01:05:22,800 --> 01:05:25,080
Speaker 2: if you're succeeding at a tech company or in finance,

1295
01:05:25,240 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: but it all feels empty to you because it kind

1296
01:05:27,320 --> 01:05:30,919
Speaker 2: of is if someone's like, you can save the cosmos. Yeah,

1297
01:05:31,000 --> 01:05:34,080
Speaker 2: here's maybe you'll give up your whole life in order

1298
01:05:34,120 --> 01:05:34,520
Speaker 2: to do that.

1299
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:35,080
Speaker 3: Right.

1300
01:05:35,800 --> 01:05:40,919
Speaker 2: Yeah, So Blanke AND's ashcoh are released in short order,

1301
01:05:40,920 --> 01:05:42,520
Speaker 2: as I said, they get out of jail quickly, but

1302
01:05:42,960 --> 01:05:45,640
Speaker 2: Ziz stays in custody for a while, and Baylis said,

1303
01:05:45,640 --> 01:05:47,800
Speaker 2: I think at fifty thousand initially, are.

1304
01:05:47,680 --> 01:05:49,800
Speaker 3: They aware of the fake death and everything it does?

1305
01:05:50,320 --> 01:05:53,959
Speaker 2: Yes, they are where she has faked her death. California

1306
01:05:54,040 --> 01:05:56,320
Speaker 2: shows no interest in sending police app to get her,

1307
01:05:57,080 --> 01:06:02,080
Speaker 2: which is like it is a crime. This is the

1308
01:06:02,640 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 2: bail is set very high for two misdemeanors, and police

1309
01:06:06,040 --> 01:06:08,360
Speaker 2: justify it in like the court documents by saying Ziz

1310
01:06:08,360 --> 01:06:11,480
Speaker 2: had recklessly created a dangerous situation by making the police

1311
01:06:11,520 --> 01:06:14,960
Speaker 2: move her. Per that argument, that article and Wired quote

1312
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,480
Speaker 2: behind these arguments and even the charges themselves lay a

1313
01:06:17,520 --> 01:06:20,440
Speaker 2: deeper motive. Unable to charge for the Zasco murders, but

1314
01:06:20,480 --> 01:06:24,320
Speaker 2: suspecting that Lesoda, Michelle Zashkoh that's Jamie and Danielle Blank

1315
01:06:24,640 --> 01:06:27,000
Speaker 2: and daniel Blank could be tied to them. Prosecutors were

1316
01:06:27,000 --> 01:06:30,880
Speaker 2: trying desperately to hold Lesoda while the police gathered evidence. Obviously,

1317
01:06:30,920 --> 01:06:32,760
Speaker 2: you realize we don't give a shit about this case.

1318
01:06:32,800 --> 01:06:35,000
Speaker 2: One local official familiar with it told me what they

1319
01:06:35,000 --> 01:06:37,960
Speaker 2: were interested in was Lesoda's involvement in the homicide. So

1320
01:06:38,000 --> 01:06:41,200
Speaker 2: the authorities here have recognized this is all centered around

1321
01:06:41,200 --> 01:06:46,000
Speaker 2: this person, but it's very difficult for us to hold

1322
01:06:46,040 --> 01:06:47,560
Speaker 2: them legally responsible.

1323
01:06:47,760 --> 01:06:48,480
Speaker 3: At this stage.

1324
01:06:48,480 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 2: We can't even arrest anyone for the murder yet we

1325
01:06:50,800 --> 01:06:54,800
Speaker 2: don't have enough, and you know it's it's I'm not

1326
01:06:54,840 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 2: gonna again pretend to know precisely what happened, but I

1327
01:06:58,360 --> 01:07:02,120
Speaker 2: think it's pretty clear Ziz probably gave the order to

1328
01:07:02,160 --> 01:07:06,680
Speaker 2: do this killing or everyone using her logic talk themselves

1329
01:07:06,720 --> 01:07:09,120
Speaker 2: into well, this is the only way to further our

1330
01:07:09,840 --> 01:07:12,439
Speaker 2: crucially important work. Is we need the money that these

1331
01:07:12,440 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 2: abusers are selfishly keeping to themselves. Jay Or Zizz's bail

1332
01:07:17,640 --> 01:07:20,440
Speaker 2: is eventually reduced. She winds up in the wind immediately,

1333
01:07:20,880 --> 01:07:23,720
Speaker 2: like the authorities are like, she's gotta immediately bounce and

1334
01:07:23,760 --> 01:07:28,760
Speaker 2: will lose her And that's exactly what happens. Zashkoh and Blank.

1335
01:07:28,880 --> 01:07:32,240
Speaker 2: It's kind of unclear exactly what they do initially after this,

1336
01:07:32,400 --> 01:07:34,680
Speaker 2: but we know Jamie reaches out to her aunt and

1337
01:07:34,720 --> 01:07:37,120
Speaker 2: begs for help, and her aunt is like, did you

1338
01:07:37,240 --> 01:07:42,920
Speaker 2: kill my sister? And Jamie says no and blames the

1339
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:46,480
Speaker 2: murders on Less Wrong, which is a Liezer's like blog,

1340
01:07:46,600 --> 01:07:49,560
Speaker 2: so she's blaming the rationalist community. She claims that she's

1341
01:07:49,600 --> 01:07:53,320
Speaker 2: being targeted and that like Seafar had commit murdered her

1342
01:07:53,360 --> 01:07:58,720
Speaker 2: parents to like basically make Ziz look bad. A year

1343
01:07:58,840 --> 01:08:01,840
Speaker 2: or so goes by, right, Ziz misses a court date,

1344
01:08:01,960 --> 01:08:04,120
Speaker 2: she never shows back up. We really don't know what

1345
01:08:04,160 --> 01:08:06,720
Speaker 2: the fuck these people are doing for most of this period.

1346
01:08:07,240 --> 01:08:08,840
Speaker 2: In February of twenty twenty.

1347
01:08:08,560 --> 01:08:10,240
Speaker 3: Three, she's no longer blogging either.

1348
01:08:10,760 --> 01:08:13,240
Speaker 2: She's not no no, no, no no no.

1349
01:08:13,200 --> 01:08:15,000
Speaker 3: But she's still said she had stopped. She was just

1350
01:08:15,040 --> 01:08:15,960
Speaker 3: responding to people.

1351
01:08:16,160 --> 01:08:19,479
Speaker 2: Yeah, and she is communicating with people still, but I

1352
01:08:19,560 --> 01:08:23,759
Speaker 2: think it's primarily through more like direct means. In February

1353
01:08:23,760 --> 01:08:26,280
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty three, a community alert is posted by

1354
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:29,040
Speaker 2: someone named Sepha Shapiro. It warns that quote over the

1355
01:08:29,040 --> 01:08:31,599
Speaker 2: past few years, Ziz has repeatedly called for the deaths

1356
01:08:31,600 --> 01:08:34,920
Speaker 2: of many different classes of people, and this this post

1357
01:08:35,000 --> 01:08:37,200
Speaker 2: lays out a lot of what I've described in these episodes.

1358
01:08:37,200 --> 01:08:40,559
Speaker 2: But there's still no public awareness of the Zizzians. Everything

1359
01:08:40,600 --> 01:08:43,719
Speaker 2: happening here is so weird. The circumstances around them, around

1360
01:08:43,720 --> 01:08:46,839
Speaker 2: the murderers are so murky that like most law enforcement

1361
01:08:46,880 --> 01:08:48,519
Speaker 2: kind of shrugs it off, and there's not like a

1362
01:08:48,560 --> 01:08:52,000
Speaker 2: public These people are so fringe. It's very difficult to

1363
01:08:52,040 --> 01:08:53,120
Speaker 2: even talk about.

1364
01:08:52,960 --> 01:08:54,840
Speaker 3: Them right now. How do you qualify that on the

1365
01:08:54,920 --> 01:08:55,599
Speaker 3: nightly news?

1366
01:08:55,760 --> 01:08:59,680
Speaker 2: Yes, exactly, Yeah, this is all going to change. In

1367
01:09:00,040 --> 01:09:04,000
Speaker 2: Jewory of twenty twenty four, Jamie's Ashco purchases three handguns

1368
01:09:04,040 --> 01:09:07,080
Speaker 2: I think from a Vermont gun store. A few months later,

1369
01:09:07,160 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 2: in May of twenty twenty four, a twenty year old

1370
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:13,280
Speaker 2: woman named Teresa Youngblud disappears from her home in Seattle.

1371
01:09:13,680 --> 01:09:16,479
Speaker 2: Young Blood is one of the scattered community of people

1372
01:09:16,479 --> 01:09:19,559
Speaker 2: who still obsessively followed and interacted with Ziz and her

1373
01:09:19,600 --> 01:09:22,720
Speaker 2: inner circle's teachings. Her parents feared that she was in

1374
01:09:22,720 --> 01:09:26,559
Speaker 2: a controlling relationship with someone, and months after disappearing, she

1375
01:09:26,600 --> 01:09:30,000
Speaker 2: applies for a marriage license with another rationalist who's obsessed

1376
01:09:30,000 --> 01:09:34,799
Speaker 2: with Ziz, named Maximilian Snyder. Now, like most Zizians, Snyder

1377
01:09:34,840 --> 01:09:37,639
Speaker 2: has a very impressive academic record. He was a National

1378
01:09:37,680 --> 01:09:41,759
Speaker 2: Merit scholar who attended Oxford University. Then he starts posting

1379
01:09:41,800 --> 01:09:44,920
Speaker 2: on Less Wrong like all the others. He is initially

1380
01:09:44,960 --> 01:09:47,240
Speaker 2: a fan of Yadkowski, but at some point he gets

1381
01:09:47,240 --> 01:09:50,240
Speaker 2: convinced that Ziz's vegan sith radicalism is the true path.

1382
01:09:50,640 --> 01:09:52,919
Speaker 2: In the summer of twenty twenty three, just months earlier,

1383
01:09:53,000 --> 01:09:56,360
Speaker 2: he won eleven thousand dollars from an AI alignment contest,

1384
01:09:56,720 --> 01:09:58,600
Speaker 2: and he won that award under his legal name, but

1385
01:09:58,640 --> 01:10:01,120
Speaker 2: he also goes by Audere. It's kind of unclear to

1386
01:10:01,160 --> 01:10:04,840
Speaker 2: me what the situation is there. Around the same time,

1387
01:10:05,080 --> 01:10:07,280
Speaker 2: he tried to raise money for Ziz when she was

1388
01:10:07,320 --> 01:10:11,479
Speaker 2: briefly behind bars. I don't know if this guy Snyder

1389
01:10:12,080 --> 01:10:14,960
Speaker 2: this person. If Snyder marries young Blood because they're actually

1390
01:10:14,960 --> 01:10:17,559
Speaker 2: in love. They had gone to high school together. But

1391
01:10:18,320 --> 01:10:20,000
Speaker 2: I think there may have been some sort of weird

1392
01:10:20,080 --> 01:10:24,320
Speaker 2: legal reason that Ziz wanted them married again very unclear,

1393
01:10:24,360 --> 01:10:28,080
Speaker 2: but they don't stay together physically very long. By January

1394
01:10:28,160 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 2: of twenty twenty five, Teresa is in Vermont looking at

1395
01:10:32,000 --> 01:10:35,880
Speaker 2: rural properties for purchase alongside Ophelia. The German quant trader

1396
01:10:36,320 --> 01:10:40,000
Speaker 2: right well, Max Snyder is in like California and reading

1397
01:10:40,040 --> 01:10:44,160
Speaker 2: between some lines. I think because Ophelia and Teresa aren't

1398
01:10:44,439 --> 01:10:47,439
Speaker 2: involved in any of the court cases, Ziz is using

1399
01:10:47,479 --> 01:10:50,280
Speaker 2: them to help actually scout out and find an isolated

1400
01:10:50,320 --> 01:10:52,720
Speaker 2: compound where they can hide out right like they are

1401
01:10:52,720 --> 01:10:54,599
Speaker 2: doing the groundwork of figuring out a place for them

1402
01:10:54,600 --> 01:10:57,519
Speaker 2: to live. They are acting as the legal individuals who

1403
01:10:57,600 --> 01:11:00,200
Speaker 2: can kind of handle everything for the folks who are

1404
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:04,920
Speaker 2: legally compromised. Later investigation would show that Bachholt and young

1405
01:11:04,960 --> 01:11:07,560
Speaker 2: Blood had been leaving living in Chapel Hill, Vermont, in

1406
01:11:07,600 --> 01:11:10,840
Speaker 2: a duplex, and neighbors say that several other people also

1407
01:11:10,960 --> 01:11:13,639
Speaker 2: lived with them. These people were always dressed in black

1408
01:11:13,680 --> 01:11:16,960
Speaker 2: and owned a box truck. It is unclear, but I

1409
01:11:16,960 --> 01:11:19,040
Speaker 2: think what happens is after she goes in the run,

1410
01:11:19,320 --> 01:11:21,599
Speaker 2: Zi starts reaching out to people she'd been in contact

1411
01:11:21,600 --> 01:11:23,280
Speaker 2: with around the world and says, hey, the time has

1412
01:11:23,360 --> 01:11:26,439
Speaker 2: now drop out of your lives and come devote yourselves

1413
01:11:26,439 --> 01:11:30,040
Speaker 2: to the cause, right, Okay, And that these these three

1414
01:11:30,040 --> 01:11:32,680
Speaker 2: are the ones who follow Backholt, young Blood and Snyder right,

1415
01:11:32,920 --> 01:11:35,640
Speaker 2: because they all cut ties with their families, cut you know,

1416
01:11:35,640 --> 01:11:38,280
Speaker 2: with their jobs, and leave home around the same time.

1417
01:11:39,680 --> 01:11:40,720
Speaker 3: While they're looking.

1418
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,439
Speaker 2: For rural prop compounds, Backholt and young Blood right wind

1419
01:11:43,520 --> 01:11:46,759
Speaker 2: up in a hotel in Lyndenville, Vermont. An employee reports

1420
01:11:46,760 --> 01:11:48,760
Speaker 2: them to the police because they're wearing body armor and

1421
01:11:48,840 --> 01:11:50,840
Speaker 2: other tactical gear and at least one of them is

1422
01:11:50,880 --> 01:11:54,639
Speaker 2: openly carrying a pistol. Something is very weird here because

1423
01:11:54,640 --> 01:11:57,240
Speaker 2: they're approached not just by Virginia State Police, but by

1424
01:11:57,240 --> 01:12:01,599
Speaker 2: a Homeland Security Investigations officer. And there's evidence that Homeland

1425
01:12:01,600 --> 01:12:03,960
Speaker 2: Security spends like a week, is surveilling them for like

1426
01:12:04,000 --> 01:12:06,960
Speaker 2: a week before the shootout that happens. I don't know

1427
01:12:07,080 --> 01:12:10,519
Speaker 2: what Homeland Security thought was happening. They may have just

1428
01:12:10,560 --> 01:12:15,160
Speaker 2: seen we're on the border. Obviously shit's escalated there. This

1429
01:12:15,240 --> 01:12:19,240
Speaker 2: isn't a foreign citizen with an American citizen. They're wrapping

1430
01:12:19,240 --> 01:12:22,240
Speaker 2: their electronics in tenfoil, they've got guns, they're driving around

1431
01:12:22,280 --> 01:12:25,679
Speaker 2: being very suspicious and tactical gear maybe they just thought

1432
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:27,879
Speaker 2: it was like some run of the mill terrorism bullshit.

1433
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:29,160
Speaker 3: It's worth checking out.

1434
01:12:29,680 --> 01:12:33,040
Speaker 2: Right, So they are surveilling these people, and I think

1435
01:12:33,280 --> 01:12:36,800
Speaker 2: young Blood and Bachholt realize they're being surveilled, right, and

1436
01:12:36,840 --> 01:12:41,840
Speaker 2: that starts that escalatory loop in their head of zizi

1437
01:12:41,960 --> 01:12:45,160
Speaker 2: and logic, where well, if the police confront me, there's

1438
01:12:45,200 --> 01:12:46,920
Speaker 2: only one way to respond.

1439
01:12:48,479 --> 01:12:49,799
Speaker 3: Yeah.

1440
01:12:49,880 --> 01:12:53,120
Speaker 2: Two days later, prosecutors in California ask the judge and

1441
01:12:53,160 --> 01:12:55,120
Speaker 2: the Curtis Lind case to speed up the process of

1442
01:12:55,160 --> 01:12:57,200
Speaker 2: going to trial. He's in his eighties, he's got a

1443
01:12:57,200 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 2: bad memory, and he's the only witness of the attacks.

1444
01:12:59,000 --> 01:13:01,040
Speaker 2: They say, it's necessary, we need to do this quickly.

1445
01:13:01,560 --> 01:13:04,840
Speaker 2: So the next day, January seventeenth, before this can happen,

1446
01:13:04,880 --> 01:13:08,120
Speaker 2: before Lynd can go to trial, a masked assailant assaults

1447
01:13:08,200 --> 01:13:11,519
Speaker 2: Lynd near his property and slits his throat, killing him.

1448
01:13:11,960 --> 01:13:15,880
Speaker 2: Maximilian Snyder, young Blood's husband, will be arrested days later

1449
01:13:15,920 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 2: in Reading, California for the murder.

1450
01:13:17,560 --> 01:13:21,720
Speaker 3: Fuck because they had been separate. Oh right, man, So

1451
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:26,040
Speaker 3: there's like there's a possibility that says it's said.

1452
01:13:26,200 --> 01:13:29,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't see what now he did not he

1453
01:13:29,080 --> 01:13:31,479
Speaker 2: hasn't pled yet, at least as the time we record this.

1454
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:33,960
Speaker 2: But he sent the letter in jail to Alisa Hitkowski

1455
01:13:34,400 --> 01:13:36,120
Speaker 2: trying to make him become a vegan.

1456
01:13:37,880 --> 01:13:47,320
Speaker 3: He also priority is in order. Oh.

1457
01:13:47,360 --> 01:13:50,400
Speaker 2: He also claimed quote, I am not one of Zizz's friends.

1458
01:13:50,560 --> 01:13:53,080
Speaker 2: Neither she nor her friends endorse me or my words,

1459
01:13:53,160 --> 01:13:55,080
Speaker 2: so far as I know, I speak only for myself

1460
01:13:55,120 --> 01:14:00,000
Speaker 2: as myself for the sake of everyone. Sure, yeah, okay,

1461
01:14:00,080 --> 01:14:02,760
Speaker 2: hey man, you just decided to kill this guy for

1462
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:03,439
Speaker 2: no reason.

1463
01:14:08,000 --> 01:14:11,840
Speaker 3: Who happened to happen to have a relationship with this

1464
01:14:12,080 --> 01:14:13,800
Speaker 3: very small group of people.

1465
01:14:13,560 --> 01:14:16,759
Speaker 2: You wis this person? He has filed for a marriage

1466
01:14:16,760 --> 01:14:20,440
Speaker 2: license with young Blood. The day after Lynde gets assassinated,

1467
01:14:20,760 --> 01:14:23,559
Speaker 2: young Blood and Bockolt are heading back from a trip

1468
01:14:23,680 --> 01:14:27,480
Speaker 2: out target shooting when they get pulled over by Border patrol.

1469
01:14:27,880 --> 01:14:31,360
Speaker 2: Young Blood almost immediately draws her side arm. There's a shootout.

1470
01:14:31,920 --> 01:14:33,679
Speaker 3: She killed or I think she kills.

1471
01:14:33,840 --> 01:14:37,360
Speaker 2: Now, anytime there's a shootout and an officer dies, a

1472
01:14:37,400 --> 01:14:39,559
Speaker 2: decent amount of the time that officer is like killed

1473
01:14:39,560 --> 01:14:42,599
Speaker 2: by another cops bullet. I don't actually know for sure

1474
01:14:42,640 --> 01:14:44,200
Speaker 2: if it was young Blo or if they all start

1475
01:14:44,200 --> 01:14:46,640
Speaker 2: shooting and he just gets killed. In the crossfire. I

1476
01:14:46,720 --> 01:14:50,880
Speaker 2: don't fully know whose gun kills him, but she definitely

1477
01:14:50,960 --> 01:14:55,759
Speaker 2: starts shooting right right, and Border Patrol agent David Mallin

1478
01:14:55,920 --> 01:14:59,360
Speaker 2: dies Bocholt is killed in the immediate shootout before she

1479
01:14:59,400 --> 01:15:02,640
Speaker 2: can draw away. And both of the firearms used in

1480
01:15:02,760 --> 01:15:06,120
Speaker 2: this shooting were guns purchased by Zadji by Jamie in

1481
01:15:06,200 --> 01:15:07,320
Speaker 2: early twenty twenty four.

1482
01:15:07,439 --> 01:15:07,719
Speaker 3: Right.

1483
01:15:07,920 --> 01:15:10,760
Speaker 2: So again, all of these things are it's very easy

1484
01:15:10,760 --> 01:15:12,400
Speaker 2: to connect them if you like know all these people,

1485
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:14,120
Speaker 2: it takes so long to trace out.

1486
01:15:14,560 --> 01:15:17,960
Speaker 3: For all their talk of murder, the in practice, they're

1487
01:15:18,000 --> 01:15:18,680
Speaker 3: not very good at it.

1488
01:15:18,800 --> 01:15:21,240
Speaker 2: Huh, No, I guess they. I mean, they didn't plan

1489
01:15:21,360 --> 01:15:23,519
Speaker 2: for this shooting to happen, right, It's just that their

1490
01:15:23,600 --> 01:15:27,800
Speaker 2: kind of escalatory logic made it inevitable. After all this,

1491
01:15:28,000 --> 01:15:30,760
Speaker 2: authorities finally start putting the whole story together. A man

1492
01:15:30,840 --> 01:15:33,599
Speaker 2: hunt is law launched in on February sixteenth of twenty

1493
01:15:33,640 --> 01:15:36,639
Speaker 2: twenty five. Ziz, Jamie, and Daniel Blank are finally caught.

1494
01:15:37,000 --> 01:15:39,120
Speaker 2: After the shootout, they seem to have started living in

1495
01:15:39,200 --> 01:15:42,719
Speaker 2: box trucks again, one of which was registered to young Blood.

1496
01:15:42,920 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 3: Yeah, back to.

1497
01:15:43,640 --> 01:15:46,360
Speaker 2: What you know, and again one of these is young Blood,

1498
01:15:46,479 --> 01:15:48,280
Speaker 2: like the box truck is registered in to her name.

1499
01:15:48,760 --> 01:15:51,760
Speaker 2: They pulled onto a property in Frostburg to camp, and

1500
01:15:51,800 --> 01:15:53,640
Speaker 2: the owner like spotted them and said, hey, get off

1501
01:15:53,680 --> 01:15:56,679
Speaker 2: my land, and like, Ziz tries to talk this person

1502
01:15:56,680 --> 01:15:59,479
Speaker 2: into letting them stay for a month, but he's like, no,

1503
01:15:59,720 --> 01:16:04,479
Speaker 2: I'm I'm gonna call the cops in a row m

1504
01:16:04,560 --> 01:16:09,160
Speaker 2: you look like a wizard. You don't need any of this. Ultimately,

1505
01:16:09,200 --> 01:16:11,639
Speaker 2: they all get arrested and charged with everything the cops

1506
01:16:11,640 --> 01:16:13,960
Speaker 2: could throw at them, which is like a legal possession,

1507
01:16:14,040 --> 01:16:17,400
Speaker 2: carrying a firearm, stuff like that. Right inside the other

1508
01:16:17,520 --> 01:16:20,560
Speaker 2: box trucks, state troopers found Jamie and Zizz, according to

1509
01:16:20,600 --> 01:16:23,920
Speaker 2: the charging documents, dressed all in black and wearing gun

1510
01:16:23,960 --> 01:16:30,200
Speaker 2: belts with ammunition. So yeah, and that's the situation where

1511
01:16:30,240 --> 01:16:40,760
Speaker 2: we are. Now, that's not the story's done. No, yeah,

1512
01:16:40,840 --> 01:16:44,320
Speaker 2: so this is basically where we are. Ziz asked for

1513
01:16:44,400 --> 01:16:49,320
Speaker 2: pre trial release, didn't get it. Not shocked about that

1514
01:16:50,840 --> 01:16:53,559
Speaker 2: quote speaking and this is from a Seattle PI article,

1515
01:16:53,600 --> 01:16:56,320
Speaker 2: speaking haltingly. She also requested a vegan diet and said

1516
01:16:56,320 --> 01:16:58,080
Speaker 2: that she was in a mild state of delirium due

1517
01:16:58,080 --> 01:17:01,160
Speaker 2: to lack of food. I have not done anything wrong,

1518
01:17:01,240 --> 01:17:03,160
Speaker 2: she told her, Judes, I might starve to death if

1519
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:04,880
Speaker 2: you do not intervene. I need the jail to be

1520
01:17:05,000 --> 01:17:07,120
Speaker 2: ordered to have a vegan diet. It's more important than

1521
01:17:07,160 --> 01:17:10,320
Speaker 2: whatever this hearing is. So I don't think this whole

1522
01:17:10,600 --> 01:17:13,320
Speaker 2: court process is going to end super well for his No.

1523
01:17:13,680 --> 01:17:15,840
Speaker 2: But I also it's very hard to tell, like what

1524
01:17:15,880 --> 01:17:18,080
Speaker 2: do you what are you going to charge that? Like,

1525
01:17:18,200 --> 01:17:23,360
Speaker 2: I don't like I'm legitimately like very uh uh, Like

1526
01:17:23,520 --> 01:17:27,360
Speaker 2: I I'll be fascinated to see what the charges are here.

1527
01:17:27,479 --> 01:17:29,479
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's excited to know that this we can see

1528
01:17:29,479 --> 01:17:30,559
Speaker 3: this play out real time.

1529
01:17:30,680 --> 01:17:34,040
Speaker 2: I yeah, this was weird.

1530
01:17:34,960 --> 01:17:43,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, hell yeah I was great anyway, Like.

1531
01:17:44,320 --> 01:17:48,000
Speaker 1: I would like to know how things fucking shake up.

1532
01:17:48,439 --> 01:17:52,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, well maybe we'll revisit this when my brain has healed.

1533
01:17:52,240 --> 01:17:54,160
Speaker 2: I need to go like read about Hitler some to

1534
01:17:54,200 --> 01:17:54,800
Speaker 2: calm down.

1535
01:17:55,080 --> 01:17:57,360
Speaker 3: Yeah, you need to go talk to your neighbor. Yeah,

1536
01:17:57,360 --> 01:17:58,519
Speaker 3: I need to go talk to my name.

1537
01:17:58,560 --> 01:17:59,720
Speaker 1: It's a better suggestion.

1538
01:18:00,760 --> 01:18:03,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, not just keep reading my Hitler books and coming

1539
01:18:03,479 --> 01:18:08,160
Speaker 2: up with theories. That's how you get That's how you

1540
01:18:08,240 --> 01:18:09,720
Speaker 2: get double bad exactly.

1541
01:18:09,840 --> 01:18:10,920
Speaker 3: That's how it happens.

1542
01:18:11,880 --> 01:18:14,320
Speaker 1: You gotta go on a run, go talk to your day,

1543
01:18:14,360 --> 01:18:16,320
Speaker 1: brickle petigoat you know.

1544
01:18:16,439 --> 01:18:20,160
Speaker 2: Everyone else, Go go talk to somebody, you know, pet

1545
01:18:20,240 --> 01:18:25,280
Speaker 2: an animal, walk you know, in the woods or something.

1546
01:18:25,880 --> 01:18:27,840
Speaker 3: Maybe stay away from boats for a while, just to

1547
01:18:28,200 --> 01:18:30,720
Speaker 3: stay the fuck away from boats. Don't go live on

1548
01:18:30,720 --> 01:18:33,280
Speaker 3: a boat. Don't go live on a boat. Stay out

1549
01:18:33,280 --> 01:18:39,519
Speaker 3: of the water. I don't care about it. Rent to

1550
01:18:39,600 --> 01:18:46,960
Speaker 3: stand on the fucking water. Oh fuck wow. At the

1551
01:18:47,040 --> 01:18:48,800
Speaker 3: end of this, David, David, how you doing?

1552
01:18:49,080 --> 01:18:52,120
Speaker 1: This is your first experience on our show What's Up?

1553
01:18:52,760 --> 01:18:55,760
Speaker 3: I honestly don't know to tell you that. I don't

1554
01:18:55,760 --> 01:18:58,200
Speaker 3: know how I feel. I'm gonna have to I really

1555
01:18:58,240 --> 01:18:59,800
Speaker 3: gonna have to kick this around for a couple of

1556
01:18:59,840 --> 01:19:03,800
Speaker 3: day is But this is interesting. Yeah, interesting as hell.

1557
01:19:04,240 --> 01:19:07,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's one way to describe it.

1558
01:19:08,640 --> 01:19:10,000
Speaker 3: That's one way to describe it.

1559
01:19:12,320 --> 01:19:15,240
Speaker 1: This is a wild time. David, you have any Do

1560
01:19:15,320 --> 01:19:17,760
Speaker 1: you have anything you want to plug for lot?

1561
01:19:18,080 --> 01:19:21,920
Speaker 3: Yeah. I produced my own comedy special. It's available on

1562
01:19:21,960 --> 01:19:26,519
Speaker 3: my Patreon, Patreon dot com backslash David Bori gb O

1563
01:19:26,840 --> 01:19:30,040
Speaker 3: r I E. It's called Birth of a Nation spelled

1564
01:19:30,040 --> 01:19:33,160
Speaker 3: with a G because that's my last name and I

1565
01:19:33,160 --> 01:19:37,240
Speaker 3: think it's funny. But yeah, I have a podcast, my

1566
01:19:37,320 --> 01:19:39,920
Speaker 3: Mama told me I also have one called All Fantasy Everything,

1567
01:19:39,960 --> 01:19:43,400
Speaker 3: where we draft fantasy things that aren't sports. But yeah,

1568
01:19:43,520 --> 01:19:44,360
Speaker 3: check that stuff out.

1569
01:19:45,560 --> 01:19:47,559
Speaker 1: Yes, ship, that sounds really cool.

1570
01:19:48,040 --> 01:19:49,040
Speaker 3: It's a lot of fun.

1571
01:19:49,280 --> 01:19:51,240
Speaker 2: That sounds so much better for you than everything we've

1572
01:19:51,240 --> 01:19:51,719
Speaker 2: talked about.

1573
01:19:51,720 --> 01:19:51,760
Speaker 1: It.

1574
01:19:51,840 --> 01:19:55,559
Speaker 3: It's different than this. It's different than this, and.

1575
01:19:55,960 --> 01:19:58,040
Speaker 1: It reminded me I need I need to set my

1576
01:19:58,080 --> 01:20:01,200
Speaker 1: fantasy basketball line up. So thank you sir all the time.

1577
01:20:01,479 --> 01:20:05,200
Speaker 2: It's time check it out, everybody. Uh, all right, that's uh,

1578
01:20:05,280 --> 01:20:08,240
Speaker 2: that's been the podcast. Don't don't do any of this,

1579
01:20:08,479 --> 01:20:10,800
Speaker 2: don't do any of the things in this in this episode,

1580
01:20:11,120 --> 01:20:15,880
Speaker 2: please bye bye.

1581
01:20:17,080 --> 01:20:19,799
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1582
01:20:20,120 --> 01:20:22,760
Speaker 1: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1583
01:20:22,840 --> 01:20:26,800
Speaker 1: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1584
01:20:26,880 --> 01:20:29,360
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.

1585
01:20:29,640 --> 01:20:30,880
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is now.

1586
01:20:30,800 --> 01:20:35,599
Speaker 1: Available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday and Friday. Subscribe

1587
01:20:35,600 --> 01:20:38,960
Speaker 1: to our channel YouTube dot com slash at Behind the

1588
01:20:39,000 --> 01:20:39,560
Speaker 1: Bastards