1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,760 --> 00:00:09,080 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,200 --> 00:00:25,760 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:25,960 --> 00:00:28,520 Speaker 1: My name is Matt, my name is Noel. They called 6 00:00:28,520 --> 00:00:32,240 Speaker 1: me Ben. We're joined as always with our superproducer Alexis 7 00:00:32,280 --> 00:00:36,440 Speaker 1: code name Doc Holiday Jackson. Most importantly, you are you. 8 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:39,560 Speaker 1: You are here, and that makes this stuff they don't 9 00:00:39,720 --> 00:00:42,160 Speaker 1: want you to know. It's the top of the week, 10 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:46,440 Speaker 1: which means it is time for our strange news segment. 11 00:00:46,920 --> 00:00:51,080 Speaker 1: There's some scandal at the post office. And don't worry, folks, 12 00:00:51,360 --> 00:00:53,760 Speaker 1: this is not the US post Office for the first 13 00:00:53,800 --> 00:00:56,240 Speaker 1: time in a long time. That's the subject of scandal. 14 00:00:56,840 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 1: Uh TikTok is in what maybe a little bit of 15 00:01:00,200 --> 00:01:05,360 Speaker 1: water and there may be a new Heaven's Gate on 16 00:01:05,600 --> 00:01:10,319 Speaker 1: the rise. This this story in particular about a group 17 00:01:10,360 --> 00:01:13,800 Speaker 1: called Love is One. This stood out to me because 18 00:01:13,840 --> 00:01:15,240 Speaker 1: I know we've got a lot of folks in the 19 00:01:15,280 --> 00:01:19,920 Speaker 1: crowd who, like me, kind of monitor cults before they 20 00:01:20,000 --> 00:01:22,800 Speaker 1: hit the news in a big way, before something terrible 21 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,640 Speaker 1: happens to them. Would you guys be okay with starting 22 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:29,320 Speaker 1: with that story today. Absolutely, yes, I'm always looking for 23 00:01:29,360 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: a new group to join. I love making friends, and 24 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:34,440 Speaker 1: I look forward to learning about this one. Ben. We 25 00:01:34,520 --> 00:01:37,319 Speaker 1: still we had a great thing going with that earlier cult. 26 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:39,400 Speaker 1: I want to thank you again for being the messianic 27 00:01:39,440 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: figurehead there, Matt. I think we made a lot of 28 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,600 Speaker 1: progress in the space of a seven minute video, you 29 00:01:45,640 --> 00:01:49,120 Speaker 1: know what. Matt, speed to you, sir, and Matt speed 30 00:01:49,160 --> 00:01:54,280 Speaker 1: to you, my friend. Uh So, everybody probably is at 31 00:01:54,320 --> 00:01:58,120 Speaker 1: least a little bit familiar with the tragic story of 32 00:01:58,160 --> 00:02:03,400 Speaker 1: the Heaven's Gate Cult back in nineteen seventy four. They 33 00:02:03,400 --> 00:02:07,280 Speaker 1: were founded as a new religious movement with a lot 34 00:02:07,320 --> 00:02:11,560 Speaker 1: of UFO ideation, and this was a cult that had 35 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:15,480 Speaker 1: this ending point. They believe that after the Hilbop commet 36 00:02:16,400 --> 00:02:20,160 Speaker 1: zinged past Earth, there would be a number of spacecraft 37 00:02:20,240 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 1: coming to retrieve the fateful. This unfortunately led to a 38 00:02:24,840 --> 00:02:29,240 Speaker 1: mass suicide as members of the movement took their own 39 00:02:29,280 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: lives in an effort to join those extraterrestrial craft that 40 00:02:34,000 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: they thought they thought they would meet them in an 41 00:02:36,919 --> 00:02:42,200 Speaker 1: immaterial or different form. That occurred in October of stories 42 00:02:42,200 --> 00:02:47,160 Speaker 1: like these are unfortunately not unique in the world of 43 00:02:47,520 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: new religious movements, which if you're ever talking to someone 44 00:02:51,400 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 1: that you think is an occult new religious movement, is 45 00:02:54,240 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: more like, is the more diplomatic way to describe their organization, 46 00:02:58,520 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 1: because as we know, as we've learned from correspondence over 47 00:03:02,240 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: the year, in fact, a lot of people don't like 48 00:03:05,680 --> 00:03:09,239 Speaker 1: the C word. Uh. They might even dislike it more 49 00:03:09,320 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 1: than the other C word that we referred to here 50 00:03:12,000 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 1: in the US conspiracy theory, No, that would be I 51 00:03:15,320 --> 00:03:18,360 Speaker 1: really thought you guys were going a different way with that. Yeah. 52 00:03:18,639 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: CT is a common abbreviation for conspiracy theory if you're 53 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:25,240 Speaker 1: ever reading something on a forum, but they both accomplished 54 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:27,680 Speaker 1: the same thing, Like, a cult is a term that 55 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,600 Speaker 1: is used to kind of nagg whatever comes after it. Like, 56 00:03:31,800 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: if you're referring to someone's belief system as a cult, uh, 57 00:03:35,240 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: then you are inherently judging it and applying certain criteria 58 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:41,800 Speaker 1: to it that are inherently negative in the same way 59 00:03:41,840 --> 00:03:44,640 Speaker 1: as a conspiracy theory is used in that way. Yeah, 60 00:03:44,680 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: and the modern parlance those could be those could both 61 00:03:48,120 --> 00:03:52,520 Speaker 1: qualify as what are known as thought terminating clichees. Our 62 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: story for I have found this when I was reading 63 00:03:55,440 --> 00:03:59,200 Speaker 1: some local papers in the Pacific Northwest, uh for a 64 00:03:59,240 --> 00:04:03,200 Speaker 1: different thing. But our story begins with a report from 65 00:04:03,240 --> 00:04:07,680 Speaker 1: the Mount Shasta News. This is a local paper in 66 00:04:07,720 --> 00:04:10,720 Speaker 1: the area, and they had a headline that really caught 67 00:04:10,760 --> 00:04:14,120 Speaker 1: me and said spiritual group compared to Heaven's Gate cult 68 00:04:14,360 --> 00:04:17,360 Speaker 1: is planting roots in the Mount Shasta area. This came 69 00:04:17,360 --> 00:04:21,920 Speaker 1: out today, as we record, but the group itself was 70 00:04:22,120 --> 00:04:25,040 Speaker 1: familiar to me from some other reading. They have a 71 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:29,840 Speaker 1: really interesting name. They're called Love Has One. Uh odd 72 00:04:30,080 --> 00:04:33,320 Speaker 1: to choose that past tense for the name of a 73 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:37,279 Speaker 1: new religious movement, but it happens points for creativity. It 74 00:04:37,400 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: is led by a person named Amy Carlson. If you 75 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:44,040 Speaker 1: are familiar with the cult, you might not know where 76 00:04:44,120 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 1: is Amy Carlson because she is referred to as Mother 77 00:04:47,279 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: God by her followers and her lover or her partner, 78 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,800 Speaker 1: whoever it may be at the time, is also automatically 79 00:04:55,800 --> 00:05:00,360 Speaker 1: referred to as Father God. So at this time, Mother God, 80 00:05:00,360 --> 00:05:03,919 Speaker 1: Amy Carlson's everyone outside of the movement is about forty 81 00:05:03,960 --> 00:05:07,039 Speaker 1: four years old. Here's what the followers believe. They believe 82 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,960 Speaker 1: that she has been reincarnated hundreds and hundreds of times. 83 00:05:11,000 --> 00:05:13,400 Speaker 1: They also believe that she has been in contact with 84 00:05:13,480 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: Robin Williams since he passed away. In that's just one 85 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 1: of the beliefs that outsiders will point to as the 86 00:05:22,080 --> 00:05:27,239 Speaker 1: more bizarre part of the story. Uh. Specifically, the mission 87 00:05:27,360 --> 00:05:32,039 Speaker 1: of this religious movement is to follow Carlson because one 88 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:35,600 Speaker 1: day she will lead one hundred and forty four thousand 89 00:05:35,680 --> 00:05:40,880 Speaker 1: chosen people into a new mystical fifth dimension. She has 90 00:05:40,960 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: also said that former US President Donald Trump was her 91 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,400 Speaker 1: father in a past life. They had a great relationship. 92 00:05:47,440 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: In case anyone is concerned, UH, there's something that happens 93 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: a lot with these kinds of movements, which is there's 94 00:05:55,240 --> 00:06:01,920 Speaker 1: a growing discrepancy between the narrative offered by the former 95 00:06:02,160 --> 00:06:05,440 Speaker 1: members of the organization and the narrative offered by the 96 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:09,479 Speaker 1: spokespeople of the group. This is something we're familiar with 97 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:13,359 Speaker 1: anytime you talk about movements that are you know, that 98 00:06:13,440 --> 00:06:17,240 Speaker 1: have this level of controversy. Scientology is of course the 99 00:06:17,279 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: easiest example, but I promise you there are numerous examples 100 00:06:22,120 --> 00:06:25,560 Speaker 1: out there. Uh. Mother God claims that she has been 101 00:06:25,560 --> 00:06:30,479 Speaker 1: trying to save humanity for nineteen billion years, which is 102 00:06:30,520 --> 00:06:34,320 Speaker 1: interesting because what we know of current science shows us 103 00:06:34,400 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 1: that humans were probably not around nineteen billion years ago. 104 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:45,159 Speaker 1: You can see an episode of Vice about them. It's 105 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:49,120 Speaker 1: the first episode of a series called False Gods, and 106 00:06:49,279 --> 00:06:54,560 Speaker 1: you can see the allegations of UM, the allegations of 107 00:06:54,600 --> 00:06:59,440 Speaker 1: mistreatment and abuse in this religious movement. Uh. So far, 108 00:06:59,600 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: I haven't been able to find anything that's as egregious 109 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:06,320 Speaker 1: as UM some of the other things that we know 110 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:10,800 Speaker 1: cult movements do. Like I haven't found any fatalities. I 111 00:07:10,880 --> 00:07:16,760 Speaker 1: haven't found I haven't found extreme injuries. But I have 112 00:07:17,920 --> 00:07:23,560 Speaker 1: seeing videos of Carlson that show her verbally abusing people, 113 00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:29,160 Speaker 1: screaming at her followers, abusing animals, having children locked in 114 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:32,560 Speaker 1: the closets for being kids. You know, That's that's one 115 00:07:32,600 --> 00:07:34,880 Speaker 1: thing that a lot of a lot of cult like 116 00:07:35,000 --> 00:07:38,000 Speaker 1: movements do, is they you know, they punish people through 117 00:07:38,000 --> 00:07:41,680 Speaker 1: their children. It's enormously effective because that's one of the 118 00:07:41,760 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: closest relationships human being has. There have also been allegations 119 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: that members are underfed, they're never paid for their work, 120 00:07:52,040 --> 00:07:57,760 Speaker 1: they're never allowed to sit down. And although the movement itself, 121 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:01,040 Speaker 1: like if you if you hear the spokespeople say the 122 00:08:01,080 --> 00:08:04,640 Speaker 1: movement itself is UM. Maybe a little bit more on 123 00:08:04,680 --> 00:08:07,880 Speaker 1: the hippie side. But in general they seem like really 124 00:08:07,960 --> 00:08:11,760 Speaker 1: nice people who just happened to believe something different. Uh. 125 00:08:11,800 --> 00:08:15,080 Speaker 1: But everything that the everything the survivors of the cult 126 00:08:15,240 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: are describing is troublingly close to the guidelines we made 127 00:08:21,160 --> 00:08:23,360 Speaker 1: in our earlier video about how to make a cult. 128 00:08:23,560 --> 00:08:27,400 Speaker 1: Their brainwashing people. They're regimented, their free time has gone, 129 00:08:27,600 --> 00:08:33,319 Speaker 1: relationships are broken down. We also see that some cures 130 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,199 Speaker 1: have been promised to people, and these cures are things 131 00:08:37,240 --> 00:08:40,680 Speaker 1: like you can talk to Mother God on the phone, 132 00:08:40,960 --> 00:08:44,920 Speaker 1: and through that phone conversation she can cure cancer. U. 133 00:08:45,360 --> 00:08:47,920 Speaker 1: We also see a little bit of a hubbard esque 134 00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,760 Speaker 1: thing here, because Hubbard would not allow, you know, drug 135 00:08:51,800 --> 00:08:55,320 Speaker 1: and alcohol abuse, but he didn't practice what he preached. 136 00:08:57,200 --> 00:08:59,880 Speaker 1: Oh we got I'm gonna Can I take a tangent 137 00:09:00,040 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: really quickly and get right back to here, please do absolutely? Okay. 138 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:07,120 Speaker 1: We We had a listener voicemail that I just heard. 139 00:09:07,320 --> 00:09:10,600 Speaker 1: I went through a couple of them today and someone 140 00:09:11,160 --> 00:09:14,280 Speaker 1: left a message asking us if we knew anything about 141 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:18,320 Speaker 1: a bet l Ron Hubbard made with some other person 142 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:22,280 Speaker 1: at a bar about whether or not he could begin 143 00:09:22,640 --> 00:09:26,640 Speaker 1: a religious movement that would function as a tax haven 144 00:09:26,840 --> 00:09:33,000 Speaker 1: and bring him great wealth. Um, well, yeah, I had 145 00:09:33,040 --> 00:09:36,360 Speaker 1: not heard. You know, I've not seen any evidence of that. 146 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:38,720 Speaker 1: I think if there were evidence of that that was 147 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: you know, blatant or just out there in the public sphere, 148 00:09:42,720 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 1: then that would be a big issue, or it would 149 00:09:45,559 --> 00:09:50,040 Speaker 1: be just completely you know, denied and pushed away. But anyway, 150 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:52,480 Speaker 1: just putting that out there, I've heard that. I've heard 151 00:09:52,600 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: a couple of versions of that anecdote enough to convince 152 00:09:56,600 --> 00:10:00,400 Speaker 1: me that at least several times in conversation he had 153 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:05,600 Speaker 1: made statements about, you know why, about how the the 154 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 1: real money was in not writing fiction, but in starting 155 00:10:09,559 --> 00:10:13,880 Speaker 1: a religion right for the tax purposes and other other 156 00:10:13,960 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: side benefits of being a religious figure that we've named earlier, 157 00:10:18,040 --> 00:10:20,480 Speaker 1: so we knew we talked about in conversation. As far 158 00:10:20,520 --> 00:10:25,120 Speaker 1: as a specific bet, I am not aware. I haven't 159 00:10:25,160 --> 00:10:27,959 Speaker 1: found proof of that, but I've heard that story before. 160 00:10:28,440 --> 00:10:32,040 Speaker 1: I just don't I haven't found a good source for 161 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,640 Speaker 1: that yet, But maybe it could have happened. It does 162 00:10:35,679 --> 00:10:38,079 Speaker 1: seem a little, you know, very much in his character 163 00:10:38,600 --> 00:10:42,959 Speaker 1: being kind of a blustery, braggadocious figure, right, I could 164 00:10:43,000 --> 00:10:45,480 Speaker 1: see him like say, hey, look what I'm gonna do 165 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:47,840 Speaker 1: or no to your point, bend just kind of bragging 166 00:10:47,880 --> 00:10:50,240 Speaker 1: about how this is a brilliant idea that no one 167 00:10:50,280 --> 00:10:52,199 Speaker 1: else has thought of, and to be fair, I mean 168 00:10:52,200 --> 00:10:56,720 Speaker 1: he pulled it off in a much more outlandish form 169 00:10:56,760 --> 00:11:00,800 Speaker 1: than just about any other figure of his type in 170 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:06,880 Speaker 1: recent in recent time. So we see some parallels in 171 00:11:07,600 --> 00:11:10,360 Speaker 1: scientology in the world of scientology, no or on Hubbard 172 00:11:10,400 --> 00:11:14,520 Speaker 1: and specific. But again we see a lot of parallels 173 00:11:14,559 --> 00:11:18,960 Speaker 1: in these types this genre of religious movement in general. 174 00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,600 Speaker 1: You know, when you when it comes down to the 175 00:11:21,679 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 1: psychological aspects of most new religious movements, they're not very 176 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:31,280 Speaker 1: different at all. You know, there's a mad lib mythology 177 00:11:31,440 --> 00:11:33,840 Speaker 1: right where you can slot in one thing slot out another. 178 00:11:34,240 --> 00:11:37,280 Speaker 1: But when it comes to how people are treated, uh, 179 00:11:37,440 --> 00:11:41,559 Speaker 1: it's often going to be the same um negation tactics. 180 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:43,839 Speaker 1: You want to diminish people, You want to make them 181 00:11:43,840 --> 00:11:47,120 Speaker 1: feel less than and that you're their only hope, and 182 00:11:47,160 --> 00:11:51,040 Speaker 1: you want to find like little little things that you 183 00:11:51,080 --> 00:11:55,520 Speaker 1: can use to to like try to make them feel 184 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,360 Speaker 1: as though they are somehow inferior. In The sad part 185 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:02,920 Speaker 1: about these sorts of approach is is unless someone is 186 00:12:02,960 --> 00:12:06,440 Speaker 1: expecting them, if they make the mistake of trusting you, 187 00:12:07,080 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: then they can be effective. And this this goes into 188 00:12:11,559 --> 00:12:14,680 Speaker 1: another commonality that we should probably talk about a little bit, 189 00:12:14,920 --> 00:12:18,880 Speaker 1: like Heaven's Gate comparisons. Those are good headline grabber, but 190 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:23,199 Speaker 1: they lead us into I would argue, a conversation about language. 191 00:12:23,520 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: Language is another wall you put up around a group 192 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:29,800 Speaker 1: to isolate them, And Matt, this is something that's stuck 193 00:12:29,840 --> 00:12:32,479 Speaker 1: out to you as well, right, Yeah, the the language 194 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: of groups, I think is something that I end up 195 00:12:35,240 --> 00:12:37,560 Speaker 1: harping on a lot of the time, and I'm sorry 196 00:12:37,600 --> 00:12:42,679 Speaker 1: to do so. And everybody who's getting tired of this conversation, 197 00:12:43,640 --> 00:12:46,679 Speaker 1: I love this you. I mean, I know I'm not 198 00:12:46,720 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 1: the audience member here, but you speaking my language? Get it? Oh? Okay. 199 00:12:51,559 --> 00:12:55,920 Speaker 1: So if you go to love has one dot org, 200 00:12:56,040 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: which is this organization's website, you can see lot of 201 00:13:00,280 --> 00:13:05,000 Speaker 1: stuff here about Mom herself. Even says about Mom in 202 00:13:05,040 --> 00:13:07,480 Speaker 1: one tab. There's another tab that you can click on 203 00:13:07,480 --> 00:13:11,640 Speaker 1: that says five D updates. And if you go here 204 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 1: you can read your you can see what I'm talking about. 205 00:13:15,520 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: This is just some of the language that's used on 206 00:13:18,120 --> 00:13:23,240 Speaker 1: the website, and specifically I'm talking about the phrasing here 207 00:13:24,160 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: stuff that is maybe insular to the group, as well 208 00:13:28,120 --> 00:13:33,160 Speaker 1: as what appears to be urgent messages that have consequences. 209 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:35,800 Speaker 1: So so failure to take action feels like it has 210 00:13:35,800 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: a consequence. So let's let's just talk about this, okay, 211 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,920 Speaker 1: So here we go. It says, Planet Earth equals Heart 212 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:44,839 Speaker 1: is ascending. We are finishing, as you said, been a 213 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:48,760 Speaker 1: nineteen billion year mission. But notice this, they are finishing 214 00:13:49,400 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: a nineteen billion year mission. Are you getting the codes? 215 00:13:54,559 --> 00:13:57,200 Speaker 1: I'm not getting the codes, guys. I don't know about y'all. Uh, 216 00:13:57,240 --> 00:13:59,880 Speaker 1: so far I haven't gotten them. Says do you read 217 00:14:00,040 --> 00:14:02,760 Speaker 1: the daily updates that will allow you to prep a 218 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:06,559 Speaker 1: bit more for what's coming. That sounds a lot like 219 00:14:06,640 --> 00:14:10,599 Speaker 1: the contract that you enter into and you become a scientologist, 220 00:14:11,040 --> 00:14:13,840 Speaker 1: is in a billion year contract or something like that. Yeah, 221 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:15,920 Speaker 1: but this is up in the games into nineteen or 222 00:14:15,920 --> 00:14:18,199 Speaker 1: at least it's been happening already. Well, but I love 223 00:14:18,240 --> 00:14:20,800 Speaker 1: that it's a mission instead of a contract. I think 224 00:14:20,840 --> 00:14:25,600 Speaker 1: that's interesting. So obviously the code is up, up, down, down, left, right, left, right, 225 00:14:25,600 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: b A. I think we can all agree on that one. 226 00:14:28,920 --> 00:14:33,080 Speaker 1: Don't forget start, don't forget start. Ben. So the the 227 00:14:33,080 --> 00:14:36,760 Speaker 1: The interesting distinction here, I would say, is that this 228 00:14:36,840 --> 00:14:40,880 Speaker 1: is what's drawing the Heavens Gate comparison that by their 229 00:14:40,920 --> 00:14:43,640 Speaker 1: own official statements there at the end of the mission, 230 00:14:44,000 --> 00:14:50,360 Speaker 1: what does the end of the mission mean? Is this? Um? 231 00:14:50,560 --> 00:14:55,280 Speaker 1: Is this in some way baking in its own finishing line? 232 00:14:55,640 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: And if so, what happens when you cross that finish 233 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,560 Speaker 1: same line? It's it's dangerous because and there are you know, 234 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: there are places like Cult Watch and nonprofits that try 235 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: to keep an eye on these things. But the the 236 00:15:10,760 --> 00:15:15,800 Speaker 1: issue is that when you join an organization like this, 237 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:20,480 Speaker 1: you are brought in through a series of very well 238 00:15:20,720 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: thought out strategies, you know, like the infamous love bomb, 239 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:27,080 Speaker 1: where people tell you that you're the greatest, and then 240 00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:30,360 Speaker 1: you start getting support that maybe you never had in 241 00:15:30,400 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: your pre cult life. Uh. And then you start the 242 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:39,680 Speaker 1: cracks begin to show. Right. You see that there is 243 00:15:39,800 --> 00:15:45,840 Speaker 1: a careening abuse problem here. Apparently there are. There are 244 00:15:45,920 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: multiple reports of abusive behavior and drinking. Uh. And another 245 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:56,240 Speaker 1: thing that has some observers worried about this possibly going 246 00:15:56,280 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: sideways is that Carlson's health is in decline. UH. We 247 00:16:02,920 --> 00:16:07,000 Speaker 1: also don't authorities don't know her location either, so she's 248 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 1: kind of going off the grid. Uh. And when you 249 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,920 Speaker 1: have a messiodic figure like this, when they decide that 250 00:16:17,560 --> 00:16:22,480 Speaker 1: their life is ending, sometimes their teachings change in a 251 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,760 Speaker 1: way that isn't always great. Or when they decide their 252 00:16:25,840 --> 00:16:28,400 Speaker 1: organization is ending. Uh, these change in a way that 253 00:16:28,600 --> 00:16:32,520 Speaker 1: isn't always great for the followers. Right now, this is 254 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:38,840 Speaker 1: very small. I think they have twenty something full time members, 255 00:16:38,840 --> 00:16:42,120 Speaker 1: so this is a very close insular group. But it's 256 00:16:42,120 --> 00:16:45,160 Speaker 1: something that I wanted to bring attention to today because 257 00:16:45,880 --> 00:16:50,320 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists the there are so many more groups 258 00:16:50,400 --> 00:16:52,600 Speaker 1: like this in the US and abroad than you might 259 00:16:52,720 --> 00:16:57,560 Speaker 1: believe exists. Uh. There are cult de programmers who have 260 00:16:58,720 --> 00:17:02,120 Speaker 1: try to put this in the perspective of the larger 261 00:17:02,200 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: context of modern new religious movements in the West. But 262 00:17:08,600 --> 00:17:11,600 Speaker 1: the problem here is you can't really predict what's going 263 00:17:11,640 --> 00:17:15,040 Speaker 1: to happen. The full time followers are all over eighteen, 264 00:17:15,080 --> 00:17:19,280 Speaker 1: they're legally adults, so you can't stop them from following 265 00:17:19,320 --> 00:17:23,200 Speaker 1: this person that they believe is their mom. The leader 266 00:17:23,200 --> 00:17:26,680 Speaker 1: phrases it in a very um well, it's not supposed 267 00:17:26,680 --> 00:17:28,919 Speaker 1: to sound threatening. Let me just read the quote that 268 00:17:28,960 --> 00:17:30,600 Speaker 1: she says in one of these videos. Let me know 269 00:17:30,640 --> 00:17:34,639 Speaker 1: what you all think. Uh. She says this five and 270 00:17:34,680 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: thirty fourth reincarnation is her quote, quest to recover my 271 00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,119 Speaker 1: beloved planet, the center of the universe and the first 272 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:44,960 Speaker 1: planet I created. The planet is ascending and you need 273 00:17:45,000 --> 00:17:50,040 Speaker 1: to reconnect with the prime source creator me. Yeah, that's 274 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:53,000 Speaker 1: a quote. They've even got on Dr Phil on their 275 00:17:53,040 --> 00:17:56,439 Speaker 1: website when you click on about Mom so like it. 276 00:17:56,760 --> 00:18:01,840 Speaker 1: This is her quote. Uh yeah, oh did you did 277 00:18:01,920 --> 00:18:04,919 Speaker 1: you read about the dark forces kidnapping my planet? Is 278 00:18:04,920 --> 00:18:11,320 Speaker 1: that we haven't read that part yet. So apparently Mother 279 00:18:11,440 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: God has had it up to some metaphysical here with 280 00:18:15,960 --> 00:18:20,480 Speaker 1: dark forces kidnapping her planet and her children, and that's 281 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:24,479 Speaker 1: what brought her to reincarnate in the flesh again. You know, 282 00:18:24,560 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 1: your spiritual beliefs or your own, And we're not fans. 283 00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:31,879 Speaker 1: I'm not a fan definitely of people telling you what 284 00:18:32,040 --> 00:18:33,879 Speaker 1: to believe, So do as you will as long as 285 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:37,480 Speaker 1: you're not hurting someone else. But the problem here is 286 00:18:37,520 --> 00:18:43,840 Speaker 1: this situation looks pretty unsustainable. So so at this point, 287 00:18:44,280 --> 00:18:48,080 Speaker 1: the residents of Mount Shasta are worried. Some family members 288 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:50,800 Speaker 1: of people have joined the movement are worried. And the 289 00:18:51,040 --> 00:18:53,720 Speaker 1: things that people who have left the movement are saying 290 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,359 Speaker 1: absolutely do not match what is being presented on their 291 00:18:58,400 --> 00:19:02,240 Speaker 1: official website or by their spokespeople. I can't help but 292 00:19:02,320 --> 00:19:06,159 Speaker 1: think of the Futurama villain Carol Miller, who is the 293 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:10,080 Speaker 1: CEO of Mom Corps and is known as mom Um. 294 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: And I looked. I looked this character, so just making 295 00:19:12,720 --> 00:19:15,159 Speaker 1: sure I wasn't like totally making this up. But on 296 00:19:15,200 --> 00:19:19,439 Speaker 1: the Wikipedia Villains wiki, um, the quote that that sets 297 00:19:19,480 --> 00:19:23,160 Speaker 1: off the Mom page on on this wiki is children, 298 00:19:23,240 --> 00:19:25,800 Speaker 1: your old mother won't be around forever. And just once 299 00:19:25,840 --> 00:19:28,560 Speaker 1: before I die, I'd like to be supreme Overlord of Earth. 300 00:19:28,960 --> 00:19:32,520 Speaker 1: So rebel, my little ones and conquer the planet. Conquer Earth, 301 00:19:33,040 --> 00:19:36,240 Speaker 1: you bastards. Let the blood bath begin. Oh man, No, 302 00:19:36,359 --> 00:19:38,760 Speaker 1: I feel like I remember that. Maybe I'm not. I'm 303 00:19:38,760 --> 00:19:42,080 Speaker 1: not sure remember my mom. I don't. I don't know. 304 00:19:42,119 --> 00:19:44,840 Speaker 1: I mean, she has a weird like hair do that 305 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:48,720 Speaker 1: kind of looks like Gary Oldman's Dracula in the in 306 00:19:48,760 --> 00:19:51,439 Speaker 1: the Dracula movie that people were sort of on the 307 00:19:51,440 --> 00:19:53,760 Speaker 1: fence about Mom. She's she's anyway, she's one of the 308 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:56,760 Speaker 1: big bads in the in the Futurama universe. But um, 309 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:59,080 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting that there's a cult leader going 310 00:19:59,119 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 1: by mom. Okay, well, I will definitely check that out. 311 00:20:02,000 --> 00:20:06,439 Speaker 1: I will say one last thing here from mother's quote, Um, 312 00:20:06,480 --> 00:20:09,440 Speaker 1: this is feels weird to me. I think I understand 313 00:20:09,440 --> 00:20:12,800 Speaker 1: what they're saying. Maybe, but take it as you will. 314 00:20:13,480 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 1: She's talking about that prime source, creator of the thing 315 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:20,600 Speaker 1: that Ben mentioned, So she is that. But there's a 316 00:20:20,640 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: sentence after it, and it says so that you can 317 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:28,159 Speaker 1: ignite your light bodies and can protect you again. Okay, 318 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:30,639 Speaker 1: I mean I'm interested to know what that means, igniting 319 00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:33,720 Speaker 1: your light bodies. I I have a visceral reaction to it. 320 00:20:33,760 --> 00:20:37,520 Speaker 1: Been almost like fire. But maybe that's not just maybe 321 00:20:37,520 --> 00:20:42,320 Speaker 1: that's that word ignite. It is vague, right, Well, I 322 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:44,600 Speaker 1: bet if you pay your way up enough in the organization, 323 00:20:44,640 --> 00:20:47,920 Speaker 1: you'll find out more. So I would file this under 324 00:20:48,080 --> 00:20:51,000 Speaker 1: keep an eye audit. I hope this does not become 325 00:20:51,080 --> 00:20:55,440 Speaker 1: another Heaven's Gate, but of course it is unfortunately difficult 326 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,680 Speaker 1: to tell. All too often, if you're listening to this 327 00:20:59,040 --> 00:21:03,119 Speaker 1: and you have of experiences with what you later learned 328 00:21:03,240 --> 00:21:05,320 Speaker 1: was a cult, would love to hear from you. One 329 00:21:05,359 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: eight three three std w y t K Conspiracy at 330 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 1: I heart radio. Uh And if you or a loved 331 00:21:12,040 --> 00:21:16,760 Speaker 1: wind are struggling to extricate yourself from a movement like this, 332 00:21:16,880 --> 00:21:20,359 Speaker 1: if you feel as bad for you psychologically, spiritually, or physically, 333 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:25,080 Speaker 1: please remember that there are resources available to help you 334 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:29,120 Speaker 1: leave these harmful organizations. If harmful to you, they are 335 00:21:29,400 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: would recommend cult dash Escape dot com. But as always, 336 00:21:34,280 --> 00:21:37,080 Speaker 1: can't wait to hear your stories. Stay safe out there, folks. 337 00:21:37,359 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: We're gonna pause for word from our sponsor and we'll 338 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:49,040 Speaker 1: return with more strange news. All right, and we're back, 339 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,240 Speaker 1: and we've got another. It's sort of an update and 340 00:21:52,320 --> 00:21:57,959 Speaker 1: an ongoing saga of a particularly popular and controversial apps, 341 00:21:57,960 --> 00:22:01,920 Speaker 1: particularly popular with the kids. But during COVID, I sound 342 00:22:01,920 --> 00:22:04,320 Speaker 1: like a grandpapa when I say things the kids and 343 00:22:04,800 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: my wife. That's what I'm saying. It's really it started 344 00:22:08,320 --> 00:22:14,119 Speaker 1: with the kids influencers, creepy dudes. That guy that reads 345 00:22:14,160 --> 00:22:16,879 Speaker 1: the news NOL. You know that guy that reads the news. 346 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,520 Speaker 1: He says, today the weather people decided that weather was bad. 347 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:23,959 Speaker 1: Do you remember him. I don't know this guy. I 348 00:22:24,000 --> 00:22:27,440 Speaker 1: believe you, I believe you. Um, it started mainly with 349 00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:29,399 Speaker 1: the kids. I remember. I know this because my kid 350 00:22:29,520 --> 00:22:32,000 Speaker 1: was super into it back when it was called musically 351 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: or music dot l Y, and they rebranded and then 352 00:22:35,840 --> 00:22:38,879 Speaker 1: you know a little thing called covid hit uh and 353 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:43,480 Speaker 1: it took these like you know, dance reenactment, lip sync 354 00:22:43,680 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: comedy type videos to keep people from going insane. So 355 00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:51,320 Speaker 1: you're right, everybody joined the fray uh. And now TikTok, 356 00:22:51,440 --> 00:22:55,000 Speaker 1: which is a Chinese owned company, the parent company Byte 357 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,800 Speaker 1: Dance UM is massive. It's ubiquitous. I think it has 358 00:23:00,000 --> 00:23:04,520 Speaker 1: something in the neighborhood of like hundreds of millions of 359 00:23:04,600 --> 00:23:09,960 Speaker 1: users eight hundred million users worldwide, uh, and apparently quite 360 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:12,680 Speaker 1: a chunk of that is in the UK. It is 361 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:17,640 Speaker 1: particularly popular in the UK, with around two hundred million 362 00:23:18,000 --> 00:23:22,560 Speaker 1: UM users in the UK alone. And today's story specifically 363 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:27,320 Speaker 1: about how some folks are not super happy about how 364 00:23:27,359 --> 00:23:33,800 Speaker 1: TikTok is um behaving towards children in terms of their privacy. 365 00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,879 Speaker 1: We know that TikTok has gotten some flak and even 366 00:23:37,920 --> 00:23:40,480 Speaker 1: like you know, the Trump administration practically went to war 367 00:23:40,560 --> 00:23:44,680 Speaker 1: with TikTok, potentially threatening a policy that would have outright 368 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,320 Speaker 1: banned them. UM. Got kids interested in politics real quick, um, 369 00:23:49,400 --> 00:23:52,280 Speaker 1: and that ultimately ended up not going anywhere. There was 370 00:23:52,560 --> 00:23:54,960 Speaker 1: I can't quite remember. You guys might might might know 371 00:23:55,920 --> 00:23:58,040 Speaker 1: more than than I'm recalling at the moment. How do 372 00:23:58,160 --> 00:24:01,600 Speaker 1: they end up kind of mitigating that. I know there 373 00:24:01,640 --> 00:24:03,080 Speaker 1: was a thing where they were going to get bought 374 00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:06,560 Speaker 1: out by Microsoft as their US presence, but I don't 375 00:24:06,600 --> 00:24:08,800 Speaker 1: think that exactly happened, and I kind of just remember 376 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:12,400 Speaker 1: that story fizzling. But they they must have done something. Uh. 377 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:17,879 Speaker 1: It's been difficult to find actual news about TikTok because 378 00:24:17,960 --> 00:24:21,280 Speaker 1: there are so many click baity articles that are written 379 00:24:21,359 --> 00:24:27,399 Speaker 1: about TikTok. But I just found one. It's all about 380 00:24:27,480 --> 00:24:30,000 Speaker 1: the kind of the plans that TikTok had for an 381 00:24:30,040 --> 00:24:32,119 Speaker 1: I p O plans that they had with Oracle and 382 00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:34,600 Speaker 1: Walmart and all those the sale and all that stuff, 383 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:37,439 Speaker 1: with the kabosh that the Trump administration put on it. 384 00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,320 Speaker 1: Apparently with the new administration under the Biden administration, they 385 00:24:41,320 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: are they're holding that sale or whatever that transaction was 386 00:24:46,119 --> 00:24:49,439 Speaker 1: going to be for security concerns. So they're still holding 387 00:24:49,440 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: onto it and not allowing any movement forward right now 388 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: for now. Okay, because and and just too sorry that's 389 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: a derail. But um that was as a direct result 390 00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:06,480 Speaker 1: of these concerns over Chinese influence of this app being 391 00:25:06,520 --> 00:25:10,439 Speaker 1: in some way insidious and targeting our children and having 392 00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:14,800 Speaker 1: some sort of direct line with this data that it's collectings. 393 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,080 Speaker 1: As we know, the apps are the secondary UM. The 394 00:25:18,160 --> 00:25:21,960 Speaker 1: product is actually data mining and data collecting, and TikTok 395 00:25:22,119 --> 00:25:28,880 Speaker 1: is pretty egregious about their data collecting practices. UM. There 396 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:31,800 Speaker 1: have been a few lawsuits already where they've been find 397 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:34,560 Speaker 1: pretty large amounts of money, at least as far as 398 00:25:34,920 --> 00:25:38,000 Speaker 1: you know mortals like like, we are concerned, but drop 399 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:39,960 Speaker 1: in the bucket when you think of how many billions 400 00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,560 Speaker 1: of dollars they made during COVID and how many users 401 00:25:42,600 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: they have. But all of these stem from privacy concerns 402 00:25:45,760 --> 00:25:49,800 Speaker 1: that they are taking data from underage users. It does 403 00:25:49,840 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 1: say you have to be thirteen to sign up, but 404 00:25:52,760 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: they there is a claim in a ninety two million 405 00:25:55,560 --> 00:26:00,840 Speaker 1: dollar settlement UM from a class action suit UH that 406 00:26:00,920 --> 00:26:06,080 Speaker 1: they were using underaged users data UM in an irresponsible way, 407 00:26:06,160 --> 00:26:09,119 Speaker 1: including biometric data, which is, you know, to get all 408 00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:12,480 Speaker 1: those crazy filters, you've got to scan faces and all 409 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,520 Speaker 1: that stuff translates into you know, metrics that can then 410 00:26:16,560 --> 00:26:19,359 Speaker 1: be stored and used and paired with other data that 411 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:21,560 Speaker 1: they are mining and they claim that they don't use 412 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:24,400 Speaker 1: it in any kind of nefarious way. But that's kind 413 00:26:24,440 --> 00:26:28,440 Speaker 1: of up for debate, right Yeah, to walk back the 414 00:26:28,560 --> 00:26:31,720 Speaker 1: because you I think you asked a question earlier about 415 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:37,920 Speaker 1: Microsoft's Yeah, what happened with that? Yeah, Oracle was chosen 416 00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:43,719 Speaker 1: back in September to be the technological partner for the 417 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,720 Speaker 1: us UH for the US endeavors. And TikTok is a 418 00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: huge deal here in the US. It's like Vine, you know, 419 00:26:51,880 --> 00:26:54,000 Speaker 1: as far as this popularity level, I would say it's 420 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:58,400 Speaker 1: surpassed Vine. You could argue any number of reasons for that, 421 00:26:58,640 --> 00:27:01,680 Speaker 1: but I think, um, the the payout you're talking about, 422 00:27:01,800 --> 00:27:06,639 Speaker 1: the proposed settlement UM came from. That's like eighty nine 423 00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: million TikTok users in the US, Is that correct? Yeah? 424 00:27:10,080 --> 00:27:12,359 Speaker 1: And then the and the funny thing is it was 425 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,919 Speaker 1: actually halted. It's had a bit of a stalemate right 426 00:27:15,000 --> 00:27:18,479 Speaker 1: now because a judge argued that a ninety two million 427 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:24,040 Speaker 1: dollar class action settlement was just absolutely insulting to individual 428 00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:27,080 Speaker 1: users because they said, if like even like two percent 429 00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:32,040 Speaker 1: of of potential class um members responded, that would be 430 00:27:32,080 --> 00:27:36,480 Speaker 1: something like six bucks a piece, you know, um for 431 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:39,000 Speaker 1: for each one of these individuals, which is not enough 432 00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:42,119 Speaker 1: to buy a Starbucks coffee, which was what the judge 433 00:27:42,160 --> 00:27:45,840 Speaker 1: said in this case. Um, that's yeah, that wouldn't make 434 00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,960 Speaker 1: sense that guy's getting the fancy coffee. Well, isn't it? 435 00:27:49,000 --> 00:27:51,040 Speaker 1: Isn't it interesting though, because it sort of calls into 436 00:27:51,119 --> 00:27:54,400 Speaker 1: question like the nature of lawsuits, Like is it really like, 437 00:27:54,440 --> 00:27:56,240 Speaker 1: I mean, a class action lawsuit is still something that 438 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,920 Speaker 1: sort of boggles my mind at times, and so there's 439 00:27:57,960 --> 00:27:59,520 Speaker 1: a lot to it, and you have to be you 440 00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:01,960 Speaker 1: have to you know, opt in. But it's like, is 441 00:28:02,000 --> 00:28:05,640 Speaker 1: it about punishing the company even if they are awarded like, 442 00:28:06,119 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 1: you know, a free lunch. Is that really like making 443 00:28:10,240 --> 00:28:14,680 Speaker 1: amends for being betrayed technologically? Like it seems like a 444 00:28:14,720 --> 00:28:17,240 Speaker 1: little bit of splitting hairs to me, Like isn't you 445 00:28:17,280 --> 00:28:20,080 Speaker 1: know it should be about the largest amount of settlement 446 00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:23,800 Speaker 1: for the uh infraction that the company you know, supposedly 447 00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:26,800 Speaker 1: is made. And I don't see how a coffee versus 448 00:28:27,080 --> 00:28:29,840 Speaker 1: you know, a nice lunch is going to really make 449 00:28:29,880 --> 00:28:33,880 Speaker 1: all that much of a difference meaningfully to individual users. Yeah, 450 00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:36,679 Speaker 1: well it's great for the legal team, and then I 451 00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:39,160 Speaker 1: mean they make a ton of about the class action. 452 00:28:39,320 --> 00:28:44,360 Speaker 1: And then if you consider class action for things that 453 00:28:44,400 --> 00:28:48,560 Speaker 1: have health concerns or environmental regulations that have been violated, 454 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:52,200 Speaker 1: then a class action lawsuit is a very important piece 455 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:57,360 Speaker 1: of changing legislation such that you know, say, people can 456 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: get their medical claims supported right in the case of 457 00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 1: widespread contamination, or that the company can get a more 458 00:29:05,280 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: actionable trouble. I'm saying, like, I see what you're saying. 459 00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,680 Speaker 1: Class action lawsuits like this. Anybody who's involved, who ever 460 00:29:11,720 --> 00:29:13,680 Speaker 1: been involved with one, or you get that letter in 461 00:29:13,720 --> 00:29:16,160 Speaker 1: the mail where it's like you might be eligible for 462 00:29:16,200 --> 00:29:20,560 Speaker 1: a piece of this insert million dollar here settlement that 463 00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 1: does usually translate to a very small takeaway amount for 464 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:26,800 Speaker 1: a lot of people, especially big things like when a 465 00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:30,840 Speaker 1: bank has compromised millions of people or hundreds of thousands, 466 00:29:31,000 --> 00:29:35,160 Speaker 1: hundreds of thousands of people's data. It's uh, it's not 467 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,640 Speaker 1: necessarily going to help repair the damage done to the 468 00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,720 Speaker 1: end user. So the best thing you can say about 469 00:29:41,720 --> 00:29:44,760 Speaker 1: a lot of class action suits is that it is 470 00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,120 Speaker 1: paving the way for actionable consequences for those companies. But 471 00:29:50,160 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: you're absolutely right. I don't think an actual cup of 472 00:29:52,760 --> 00:29:55,400 Speaker 1: coffee is gonna help someone if their personal data has 473 00:29:55,400 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: been stolen. Yeah, I know, I am with you where 474 00:29:57,520 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: I think we're definitely on the same page, and I'm 475 00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: I'm now getting to the new thing. I wanted to 476 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:04,840 Speaker 1: establish those precedents. Thank you, Ben for clearing up that 477 00:30:04,880 --> 00:30:08,120 Speaker 1: whole uh kerfuffle with the you know, with the Trump administration, 478 00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,320 Speaker 1: because it really was quite a big deal. It was 479 00:30:10,360 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: a huge news item and they really had to scramble 480 00:30:12,840 --> 00:30:14,760 Speaker 1: to make that thing and it really felt like a 481 00:30:14,760 --> 00:30:18,400 Speaker 1: almost more like a symbolic gesture, uh, because it does 482 00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: seem as though there are still major concerns with the 483 00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:26,800 Speaker 1: way TikTok is using users data. This new case comes 484 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:32,000 Speaker 1: uh from a woman named and Longfield, who used to 485 00:30:32,040 --> 00:30:37,520 Speaker 1: be used to have the role of Children's Commissioner for England, 486 00:30:37,800 --> 00:30:39,520 Speaker 1: which is a role that we don't really have an 487 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: analog for here exactly in the government. And what it 488 00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:46,880 Speaker 1: essentially is is someone whose job is to advocate for 489 00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:50,920 Speaker 1: children's rights, which sounds great because you know, I think 490 00:30:50,920 --> 00:30:55,560 Speaker 1: maybe we sometimes don't think about children having as many 491 00:30:55,640 --> 00:30:58,440 Speaker 1: rights as adults sometimes, which I guess in theory they don't. 492 00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:02,360 Speaker 1: But there are things where this kind of conversation really matters, 493 00:31:02,360 --> 00:31:05,400 Speaker 1: and this is one of them. Um. She is advocating 494 00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:08,520 Speaker 1: for a there's no actual number on it yet, but 495 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,360 Speaker 1: potential billion dollar lawsuit against TikTok's parent company Byte Dance 496 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:18,800 Speaker 1: UM for what she refers to and she deems as shadowy, 497 00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:23,160 Speaker 1: sinister and if I may, you know, put some words 498 00:31:23,200 --> 00:31:26,520 Speaker 1: in her mouth, she's really talking about what she considers 499 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:29,240 Speaker 1: something of an evil practice or at the very least 500 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:33,880 Speaker 1: completely duplicitest and this honest. Her lawyers are alleging that 501 00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:39,360 Speaker 1: TikTok has taken children's personal information that includes phone numbers, UM, 502 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:42,600 Speaker 1: geo location, geo tags, you know, to know what to 503 00:31:42,600 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: the kind of like get a sense of their man 504 00:31:44,520 --> 00:31:47,040 Speaker 1: their movements because i'd be obviously you make these things 505 00:31:47,040 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: at all kinds of places you make them. It's stores, 506 00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,640 Speaker 1: you make them, your friends houses you make it really 507 00:31:52,680 --> 00:31:55,800 Speaker 1: is a good way to tell exactly what your your 508 00:31:55,840 --> 00:32:00,280 Speaker 1: movements are. UM biometric data like we talked about video thos, 509 00:32:00,480 --> 00:32:04,680 Speaker 1: phone numbers because it it connects up to your address book, 510 00:32:04,720 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: you know, so you can send uh, you know, these 511 00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,280 Speaker 1: things directly to folks. Um or invites her. I'm not 512 00:32:10,280 --> 00:32:13,120 Speaker 1: sure exactly. I don't have a TikTok account personally, but UM, 513 00:32:13,200 --> 00:32:15,200 Speaker 1: I could probably get all this info from my from 514 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 1: my daughter, but alleges that these practices do not include 515 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:24,120 Speaker 1: a sufficient uh warning, a sufficient access to any kinds 516 00:32:24,120 --> 00:32:27,760 Speaker 1: of terms with services, and that the most importantly UM 517 00:32:29,120 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 1: don't require consent from the parents of miners, which is 518 00:32:33,160 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: you know what's an issue here. She has a statement 519 00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,480 Speaker 1: saying the following TikTok is a hugely popular social media 520 00:32:39,520 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 1: platform that has helped children keep in touch with their 521 00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:45,960 Speaker 1: friends during an incredibly difficult year. However, behind the fund songs, 522 00:32:46,120 --> 00:32:52,040 Speaker 1: dance challenges, and lip sync trends lies something far more sinister. UM. 523 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 1: She calls the company a data collection service that is 524 00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,960 Speaker 1: thinly veiled as a social network, but which is deliberate 525 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: lee and successfully deceiving parents so you know, of course 526 00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 1: by dance. The TikTok's parent company UM had a understandably 527 00:33:09,920 --> 00:33:15,080 Speaker 1: but patently UM diplomatic and kind of non response UM, 528 00:33:15,280 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 1: saying that privacy and safety your top priorities for TikTok, 529 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:22,120 Speaker 1: and we have robust policies, processes and technologies in place 530 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:25,480 Speaker 1: to help protect all users, and our teenage users in particular. 531 00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: We believe the claim claims lack merit and intend to 532 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:33,560 Speaker 1: vigorously defend the action. So UM, there it is really 533 00:33:33,560 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: it's really it's kind of an update. There are some 534 00:33:35,680 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: other kind of precedence for this um that are still 535 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:41,840 Speaker 1: being hung up in the Supreme Court. There's a there's 536 00:33:41,840 --> 00:33:44,640 Speaker 1: a there's a case that miss Longfeld in particular or 537 00:33:44,680 --> 00:33:47,120 Speaker 1: Longfield who you know, was this kind of spearheading. This 538 00:33:47,440 --> 00:33:49,760 Speaker 1: has been keeping a close eye on. Uh. And it 539 00:33:49,880 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: is one brought by Richard Lloyd, who is the director 540 00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 1: of child advocacy group called which question mark UM and 541 00:34:00,360 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 1: it's behalf Well it's really not a privacy advocacy group rather, 542 00:34:04,920 --> 00:34:07,880 Speaker 1: but he filed a k suit on behalf of four 543 00:34:07,920 --> 00:34:11,800 Speaker 1: million iPhone users alleging that they were illegally tracked by Google. 544 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:16,200 Speaker 1: UM and that case was was was broad in tween 545 00:34:16,560 --> 00:34:20,319 Speaker 1: but still hasn't had a you know, a conclusion. Uh. 546 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:22,000 Speaker 1: And it is due to be heard by the Supreme 547 00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:24,200 Speaker 1: Court relatively soon. So that's when to keep an eye on. 548 00:34:24,200 --> 00:34:26,560 Speaker 1: And if that goes south, then this case doesn't have 549 00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:28,840 Speaker 1: much merit um. So it's definitely something to keep an 550 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:33,600 Speaker 1: eye on. Got it. It's fascinating because you know, they're 551 00:34:33,640 --> 00:34:37,960 Speaker 1: they're multiple concerns here. Everybody who is a guardian or 552 00:34:38,080 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: parent of a of a child who's listening to the 553 00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:43,759 Speaker 1: audience today. You know, there are hard conversations to have 554 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: with your kids about how public the kids should be. 555 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,640 Speaker 1: You know, many people listening today did not grow up 556 00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:53,239 Speaker 1: in an age where their parents had, you know, a 557 00:34:53,280 --> 00:34:57,120 Speaker 1: Facebook or or some other profile on a platform where 558 00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:59,840 Speaker 1: they could put pictures of you since infancy. You know 559 00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:05,000 Speaker 1: what I mean Like this, the boundaries of expectations for 560 00:35:05,120 --> 00:35:09,760 Speaker 1: privacy I have been I would say, pretty much completely eroded. 561 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:12,080 Speaker 1: Talked about it in the past, but when it comes 562 00:35:12,160 --> 00:35:16,239 Speaker 1: to something like TikTok, we see you know, the questions 563 00:35:16,280 --> 00:35:19,400 Speaker 1: about who your children are interacting with online. And I 564 00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: don't means a fearmonger, but these are really important questions 565 00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,520 Speaker 1: like who is who has seen them? What are they 566 00:35:25,560 --> 00:35:29,560 Speaker 1: possibly learning about these other users? You know, how does 567 00:35:29,600 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: the abyss stare back right? How does the facial recognition 568 00:35:33,560 --> 00:35:36,759 Speaker 1: come back to bite you in a few years time. Uh. There, 569 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:40,440 Speaker 1: They're serious concerns and it may sound this is an 570 00:35:40,440 --> 00:35:43,280 Speaker 1: important point, um. One of the reasons I really appreciate 571 00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:47,040 Speaker 1: you bringing this this show today. It seems unsurfaced, like 572 00:35:47,120 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: it could be really racist if like racist and someone 573 00:35:51,360 --> 00:35:56,440 Speaker 1: nationalistic for people to start saying, oh, China is so 574 00:35:56,520 --> 00:35:59,759 Speaker 1: bad they're out to steal stuff about when your kids 575 00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,200 Speaker 1: are McDonald's or whatever. But the fact of the matter 576 00:36:03,320 --> 00:36:06,279 Speaker 1: is that Chinese espionage in the world of tech is 577 00:36:06,320 --> 00:36:12,160 Speaker 1: a very real and proven things. So the previous administration 578 00:36:12,880 --> 00:36:17,280 Speaker 1: definitely had a bad habit of trotting out China whenever 579 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:20,360 Speaker 1: they wanted to get away from their own bad domestic 580 00:36:20,360 --> 00:36:25,120 Speaker 1: press or be uh, distract from another issue, makes something 581 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:30,080 Speaker 1: not their fault, etcetera. But concerns are real. They are real, 582 00:36:30,120 --> 00:36:31,680 Speaker 1: and we even I mean, look, it's the kind of 583 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:33,840 Speaker 1: thing that would be really good fodder for like a 584 00:36:33,880 --> 00:36:36,560 Speaker 1: science science fiction story. Like we even talked about this 585 00:36:36,640 --> 00:36:39,320 Speaker 1: in a previous either Strange News or I can't remember 586 00:36:39,560 --> 00:36:42,880 Speaker 1: what which segment it was. But the idea of what 587 00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:45,760 Speaker 1: if they are like some kind of like subliminal messages 588 00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:48,480 Speaker 1: encoded in TikTok videos or something, It's like, it is 589 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: the kind of thing you could take to the extreme, 590 00:36:50,320 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: especially when you think about like how, um what what 591 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,640 Speaker 1: a country like China would have to gain from having 592 00:36:59,000 --> 00:37:02,680 Speaker 1: access to all these kids and access to all this data. Uh. 593 00:37:02,719 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 1: And that's why I think the Oracle deal is so 594 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:08,240 Speaker 1: important because we require sort of assurances that this stuff 595 00:37:08,320 --> 00:37:12,160 Speaker 1: wasn't being just sold to third parties without anyone's knowledge 596 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:15,440 Speaker 1: or used for any kind of, you know, nefarious purposes. 597 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:18,279 Speaker 1: But you're right, it absolutely has the potential. And I'm 598 00:37:18,360 --> 00:37:21,000 Speaker 1: joking about the subliminal messages, but I would love to 599 00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,239 Speaker 1: see a short story with that in mind. I think 600 00:37:23,239 --> 00:37:26,360 Speaker 1: it's a really fun idea. Um, I think that has 601 00:37:26,400 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: ha you not seen some of the swift Talk. I look, 602 00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,040 Speaker 1: if you guys have never perused swift Talk, I highly 603 00:37:33,080 --> 00:37:37,279 Speaker 1: recommend anyone out there listening and or watching on their 604 00:37:37,280 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: phone right now check out swift Talk. Get swifty with it. 605 00:37:41,520 --> 00:37:44,439 Speaker 1: Check out the messages that can be found in all 606 00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:49,840 Speaker 1: of Taylor's Swift's music, social media posts and or uh, 607 00:37:50,239 --> 00:37:53,360 Speaker 1: I don't know, messages that she sends throughout the universe 608 00:37:53,480 --> 00:37:56,560 Speaker 1: without us even realizing in the moment, Britney Spears and 609 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,680 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift are really just doing Darren Brown's act with 610 00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:05,480 Speaker 1: some use it right. Yeah, she's on another level if 611 00:38:05,520 --> 00:38:09,880 Speaker 1: you believe a lot of the most popular swift Talk folks, 612 00:38:10,040 --> 00:38:12,839 Speaker 1: and it's it's really interesting stuff. Wow, this is news 613 00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: to me. I do know that the Swifties are a 614 00:38:15,080 --> 00:38:17,840 Speaker 1: very particular breed and you definitely don't want to cross 615 00:38:18,239 --> 00:38:22,200 Speaker 1: Taylor Swift with them around, because what I'm saying, do 616 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,719 Speaker 1: not ever do that. No matter who you are or 617 00:38:24,719 --> 00:38:27,279 Speaker 1: where you are, what you're doing, just know that it's 618 00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,399 Speaker 1: fascinating and you can learn a lot about it. Well, 619 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:32,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna dig right into that while we take a 620 00:38:32,560 --> 00:38:34,799 Speaker 1: quick break for a word from our sponsor and then 621 00:38:34,840 --> 00:38:38,279 Speaker 1: return for potentially some swift talk, but definitely somewhere strange news. 622 00:38:44,760 --> 00:38:47,799 Speaker 1: All right, welcome back for more strange news. Guys. There 623 00:38:47,800 --> 00:38:50,000 Speaker 1: really is a person on TikTok and I cannot think 624 00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,240 Speaker 1: of his name. He is amazing. He just deadpan reads 625 00:38:53,280 --> 00:38:55,920 Speaker 1: a news story and or tells you exactly what's happening. 626 00:38:55,960 --> 00:38:57,879 Speaker 1: He does not look away. He tells you exactly what's 627 00:38:57,880 --> 00:39:00,760 Speaker 1: occurring right now. The scientist will not allow the vaccine 628 00:39:00,800 --> 00:39:03,880 Speaker 1: to occur. They it is one of the most wonderful 629 00:39:03,880 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: things I've ever seen. But is it better than David 630 00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:11,759 Speaker 1: Lynch reading than the weather? Yes, because this guy just 631 00:39:12,239 --> 00:39:15,120 Speaker 1: does it. He doesn't let up until he's finished telling 632 00:39:15,120 --> 00:39:20,080 Speaker 1: you exactly what he's telling you, and then he's gone. 633 00:39:20,880 --> 00:39:26,200 Speaker 1: He was awesome. Whoever it is. Diana showed me a 634 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:28,760 Speaker 1: couple of videos of him and I loved it. Okay, 635 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: but Chris is not here right now. We are, and 636 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:33,520 Speaker 1: that's why we're gonna tell you about a little thing 637 00:39:33,560 --> 00:39:37,239 Speaker 1: that's happening out in the United Kingdom and has to 638 00:39:37,280 --> 00:39:41,680 Speaker 1: do with year old post office. We have discussed the 639 00:39:41,719 --> 00:39:46,160 Speaker 1: post before on this show, generally regarding the United States 640 00:39:46,360 --> 00:39:50,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to several of the major issues that 641 00:39:50,200 --> 00:39:53,399 Speaker 1: our country's post has been dealing with. Well, today we're 642 00:39:53,400 --> 00:39:56,919 Speaker 1: going to talk about the British Isles and what's going 643 00:39:56,960 --> 00:40:01,120 Speaker 1: on with their post office system, and particularly we're gonna 644 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:06,439 Speaker 1: be talking about a point of sale software. Essentially, that's 645 00:40:06,480 --> 00:40:10,319 Speaker 1: really what this story is about. The machines that are 646 00:40:10,480 --> 00:40:13,319 Speaker 1: used to, you know, put a credit card in, make 647 00:40:13,360 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: a payment, do some kind of transaction from a client, 648 00:40:17,680 --> 00:40:20,800 Speaker 1: a user, just any person walking in to send something 649 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,239 Speaker 1: via the post and the post office itself. We're going 650 00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,800 Speaker 1: to the BBC to look at an article titled post 651 00:40:27,840 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: Office Scandal. What the Horizon saga is all about? Remember 652 00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 1: that word horizon. It's gonna be very important. Apparently, there 653 00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,719 Speaker 1: were some bad things occurring at the post office. The 654 00:40:41,920 --> 00:40:45,880 Speaker 1: Post Office being all of the post offices across the 655 00:40:45,960 --> 00:40:51,320 Speaker 1: United Kingdom between two thousand and ten, so fourteen years 656 00:40:51,360 --> 00:40:55,879 Speaker 1: there and spoiler alert, they continued after and they're still 657 00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:58,480 Speaker 1: happening right now, but we're going to get into that. 658 00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:04,879 Speaker 1: For fourteen years, uh, there appeared to be some situations 659 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:09,960 Speaker 1: with balancing the books at specific post offices. So imagine 660 00:41:10,040 --> 00:41:12,600 Speaker 1: just the post office that's down the street from wherever 661 00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:14,960 Speaker 1: you are. Let's say if you're in London, your your 662 00:41:15,000 --> 00:41:18,799 Speaker 1: section of London, or your neighborhood that post office. Now 663 00:41:18,840 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: imagine all of the transactions that are occurring over a quarterly, 664 00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:27,440 Speaker 1: a monthly basis, maybe even a daily basis. All of 665 00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,520 Speaker 1: that stuff is you, is done through one of these computers, 666 00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:35,239 Speaker 1: one of these terminals that's there, and all of that information, 667 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,279 Speaker 1: all that money in, money out, You get an end 668 00:41:38,280 --> 00:41:40,960 Speaker 1: of the day number, essentially how much the post office 669 00:41:41,000 --> 00:41:45,120 Speaker 1: made or lost. And what was occurring at a ton 670 00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: of post offices around the UK is that those numbers 671 00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:53,200 Speaker 1: were showing that the post office was losing money. And 672 00:41:53,960 --> 00:41:58,120 Speaker 1: because of that, there were seven hundred and thirty six 673 00:41:58,320 --> 00:42:02,359 Speaker 1: what are called sub postmasters, which are just people that 674 00:42:02,560 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 1: run a specific post office, which sounds way more like 675 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: a position in a B D S M club than 676 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:14,000 Speaker 1: it is. So post oh boy, oh wow, Like so 677 00:42:14,040 --> 00:42:18,440 Speaker 1: it's really lows like the base or wait, is a 678 00:42:18,480 --> 00:42:21,320 Speaker 1: post like a physical post involved? I mean, you know 679 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:26,680 Speaker 1: we're not euphemism desmite be a different strange news or 680 00:42:26,800 --> 00:42:29,640 Speaker 1: listener mail again at eight three three stt w y 681 00:42:29,680 --> 00:42:33,440 Speaker 1: T k okay okay. So, so seven hundred and thirty 682 00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:37,839 Speaker 1: six individuals people who were running these post offices were 683 00:42:38,280 --> 00:42:42,320 Speaker 1: prosecuted because those numbers were different, right, And it seems 684 00:42:42,320 --> 00:42:45,160 Speaker 1: as though the the individual post office was losing money, 685 00:42:45,160 --> 00:42:47,319 Speaker 1: but it was just money that was gone. It wasn't 686 00:42:47,360 --> 00:42:51,000 Speaker 1: as though they had spent more money than they were making. 687 00:42:51,040 --> 00:42:53,880 Speaker 1: It's just money was not there that was supposed to 688 00:42:53,880 --> 00:42:57,240 Speaker 1: be there. So it was assumed that these individual post 689 00:42:57,360 --> 00:43:02,080 Speaker 1: subpostmasters were stealing money somehow or embezzling money, and a 690 00:43:02,120 --> 00:43:05,359 Speaker 1: lot of a lot of people, seventy six ended up 691 00:43:05,400 --> 00:43:09,480 Speaker 1: being prosecuted because of this. Many went to prison. They 692 00:43:09,520 --> 00:43:13,680 Speaker 1: were convicted for false accounting. So it's not just as 693 00:43:13,680 --> 00:43:16,239 Speaker 1: though they were accused of stealing the money, but they 694 00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,280 Speaker 1: were accused of just doing a terrible job at accounting. 695 00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:22,920 Speaker 1: And for some reason misplaced that money. I mean, gross 696 00:43:23,000 --> 00:43:27,879 Speaker 1: negligence is a crime. Sure. And and this is you know, 697 00:43:28,440 --> 00:43:32,680 Speaker 1: we're talking about the post Office. These these subpostmasters are 698 00:43:32,800 --> 00:43:36,719 Speaker 1: kind of like franchise ease, you know, running running one 699 00:43:36,800 --> 00:43:42,400 Speaker 1: individual version of this big system. And you can imagine 700 00:43:42,400 --> 00:43:45,319 Speaker 1: that the post Office wanted. The post Office itself is 701 00:43:45,360 --> 00:43:49,239 Speaker 1: the thing, the entity that's prosecuting these people. So it's 702 00:43:49,280 --> 00:43:55,000 Speaker 1: as though McDonald's was prosecuting franchisees who owned the McDonald's 703 00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:59,120 Speaker 1: somewhere in Atlanta. It's it's very similar to that. But 704 00:43:59,200 --> 00:44:05,200 Speaker 1: here's the deal, huge cross, huge problem, cross fried gligens 705 00:44:05,600 --> 00:44:11,160 Speaker 1: god delicious fragligence. So the so here's the deal. Day 706 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:15,160 Speaker 1: for fourteen years they were prosecuting people. And there was 707 00:44:15,200 --> 00:44:20,319 Speaker 1: a flag that was raised around and this flag had 708 00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:23,480 Speaker 1: written on it, Hey, I think there might be something 709 00:44:23,560 --> 00:44:26,960 Speaker 1: wrong with the software that all of these subpostmasters have 710 00:44:27,040 --> 00:44:30,279 Speaker 1: been using to balance their books. I think it might 711 00:44:30,280 --> 00:44:32,799 Speaker 1: not be the individual. I think it might be the software. 712 00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:35,920 Speaker 1: And there was an inquiry, or at least there was 713 00:44:35,960 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: a vote at some point in parliament to take a 714 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,279 Speaker 1: look at this to figure out what it what it was, 715 00:44:41,360 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: what was happening. That vote unfortunately in got pushed as 716 00:44:45,560 --> 00:44:47,840 Speaker 1: in it just they kind of held off. It didn't 717 00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:52,560 Speaker 1: go anywhere, and then for the next five six years 718 00:44:52,960 --> 00:44:55,399 Speaker 1: there were just a whole bunch of attorneys, a whole 719 00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,840 Speaker 1: bunch of individuals who were trying to clear the names 720 00:44:59,120 --> 00:45:02,920 Speaker 1: of the these seven hundreds something people that all found 721 00:45:02,920 --> 00:45:06,160 Speaker 1: themselves in the in the legal system there in the 722 00:45:06,239 --> 00:45:11,399 Speaker 1: UK with felonies. There are horrible stories that you can 723 00:45:11,440 --> 00:45:14,440 Speaker 1: read about what happened to individuals, some of whom were 724 00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:17,200 Speaker 1: pregnant when they were accused of this stuff and ended 725 00:45:17,280 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: up having, you know, to go to prison for a 726 00:45:19,719 --> 00:45:23,120 Speaker 1: little while. Some people who lost their livelihoods who then 727 00:45:23,200 --> 00:45:27,640 Speaker 1: walked around with a felony charge on their record for 728 00:45:27,719 --> 00:45:31,080 Speaker 1: five six years, sometimes for longer. Sometimes we're a decade 729 00:45:31,920 --> 00:45:35,600 Speaker 1: or almost or up to twenty years. Really horrible stories. 730 00:45:35,600 --> 00:45:37,440 Speaker 1: You can read and find those all over the place. 731 00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,840 Speaker 1: The problem is this software which is known as Horizon 732 00:45:42,160 --> 00:45:45,399 Speaker 1: h O R I z O N. It appears that 733 00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:48,960 Speaker 1: this software Horizon, was the culprit in many of the 734 00:45:49,000 --> 00:45:55,560 Speaker 1: scenarios simply because it was not created correctly, at least 735 00:45:55,600 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: according to some insiders with Fujitsu. The name of that 736 00:45:58,800 --> 00:46:02,440 Speaker 1: that's the company that creates did it. Uh, some insiders 737 00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:06,120 Speaker 1: who say it was built on top of a platform 738 00:46:06,320 --> 00:46:10,439 Speaker 1: that wasn't supposed to do what this thing does, So 739 00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,120 Speaker 1: they retro fitted it, right, they tried to like they 740 00:46:15,200 --> 00:46:19,960 Speaker 1: took they took the for a terrible analogy. Uh, they 741 00:46:20,040 --> 00:46:25,200 Speaker 1: took what would be the skeleton of a really cool whale, 742 00:46:25,600 --> 00:46:28,400 Speaker 1: and they were like, how do we turn this into 743 00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:34,920 Speaker 1: something that can run on the land. Yeah, very much, though, 744 00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:39,359 Speaker 1: very much. So. You can go to Computer Weekly dot 745 00:46:39,400 --> 00:46:42,040 Speaker 1: com and you can check out an article here called 746 00:46:42,400 --> 00:46:46,720 Speaker 1: Fujitsu bosses knew about Post Office Horizon I t flaws, 747 00:46:46,960 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 1: says insider. If you jump to this article, you can 748 00:46:50,719 --> 00:46:55,560 Speaker 1: see there are several people who were actually project leads 749 00:46:56,160 --> 00:46:59,520 Speaker 1: for Fujitsu working on Horizon back in the early two 750 00:46:59,600 --> 00:47:02,920 Speaker 1: thousand I guess it was late nineties early two thousand's 751 00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,400 Speaker 1: who who were trying to raise alarms about how the 752 00:47:07,400 --> 00:47:12,240 Speaker 1: software is being created and these massive problems that it had. Uh. 753 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:15,319 Speaker 1: One of the biggest thing and it's difficult for me 754 00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:18,120 Speaker 1: to explain. Maybe it's something we could go to Jonathan with. 755 00:47:18,400 --> 00:47:20,160 Speaker 1: It would be great to maybe have him come on 756 00:47:20,239 --> 00:47:22,760 Speaker 1: the show and like walk us through some of this stuff. 757 00:47:23,239 --> 00:47:28,520 Speaker 1: But there's a layer between the servers, the network servers 758 00:47:28,560 --> 00:47:32,120 Speaker 1: that are actually processing all the numbers and everything there 759 00:47:32,120 --> 00:47:34,880 Speaker 1: you know, they live in a server room somewhere in 760 00:47:34,920 --> 00:47:38,080 Speaker 1: a giant complex. And then on this side you've got 761 00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:42,480 Speaker 1: the individual point of sale service, so like the post offices, 762 00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:46,280 Speaker 1: the individual post offices, and in a lot of ways 763 00:47:46,280 --> 00:47:48,719 Speaker 1: and a lot of systems like this, there's a direct connection. 764 00:47:49,120 --> 00:47:51,720 Speaker 1: It's just like having an Internet connection or something. Every 765 00:47:51,719 --> 00:47:54,680 Speaker 1: time something occurs at the at the point of sale level, 766 00:47:54,719 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: at the post office level, all that information gets transferred 767 00:47:57,440 --> 00:48:00,879 Speaker 1: over to the main server, and that's where stuff gets logged. 768 00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:03,440 Speaker 1: It gets logged on both sides, and then everything is 769 00:48:03,440 --> 00:48:06,279 Speaker 1: backed up on that main server. That's where all the 770 00:48:06,360 --> 00:48:10,560 Speaker 1: major information is kept. There was a huge issue where 771 00:48:10,560 --> 00:48:14,040 Speaker 1: with this system, stuff would all end. We would all 772 00:48:14,120 --> 00:48:17,680 Speaker 1: stay on the post office level, so locally everything, all 773 00:48:17,719 --> 00:48:21,759 Speaker 1: the information would get stored locally until some random point 774 00:48:21,880 --> 00:48:25,239 Speaker 1: at night or when the service wasn't being used, you know, 775 00:48:25,560 --> 00:48:29,520 Speaker 1: in a daily service mode. It would then transfer all 776 00:48:29,600 --> 00:48:33,839 Speaker 1: of the information to the servers. And so it's almost like, 777 00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:36,239 Speaker 1: do you guys remember having any kind of system like that. 778 00:48:36,719 --> 00:48:39,640 Speaker 1: I'm trying to think of an equivalent ben and uh, 779 00:48:39,960 --> 00:48:42,319 Speaker 1: where there's just an update that occurs once a day 780 00:48:42,440 --> 00:48:46,919 Speaker 1: or something. Sure, even like you know, cameras that are 781 00:48:47,080 --> 00:48:49,239 Speaker 1: offloaded at the end of the day or something like that, 782 00:48:49,320 --> 00:48:52,960 Speaker 1: like uh, like a scheduled event where things are either 783 00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:57,080 Speaker 1: offloaded onto a server and then the local copies are 784 00:48:57,080 --> 00:49:01,240 Speaker 1: wiped and then rent and repeat. Or in the old 785 00:49:01,320 --> 00:49:04,440 Speaker 1: days of podcasts, you know, actually there would be some 786 00:49:04,520 --> 00:49:09,520 Speaker 1: platforms and services that would just refresh something on a 787 00:49:09,560 --> 00:49:13,360 Speaker 1: twenty four hour o' clock so you could maybe publish 788 00:49:13,480 --> 00:49:18,000 Speaker 1: something like you know, you publishing your new episode of 789 00:49:18,280 --> 00:49:21,759 Speaker 1: um Bens Crazy back Roads or some other show I 790 00:49:21,840 --> 00:49:25,200 Speaker 1: just made up and then I love that podcast. Thanks guys. 791 00:49:25,400 --> 00:49:28,080 Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if that publishes. If you publish it 792 00:49:28,200 --> 00:49:31,399 Speaker 1: at like ten, it's still not going to really hit 793 00:49:31,520 --> 00:49:36,520 Speaker 1: until twelve oh one or something like that. Yes, yeah, 794 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,560 Speaker 1: funnily enough, I mean, even like huge companies like Apple, 795 00:49:40,880 --> 00:49:44,440 Speaker 1: for example, like on their Apple podcast platform, if you 796 00:49:44,520 --> 00:49:47,600 Speaker 1: make a change as a user, you oftentimes have to 797 00:49:47,640 --> 00:49:50,360 Speaker 1: ask for a manual refresh, which you can't do yourself. 798 00:49:50,400 --> 00:49:52,680 Speaker 1: You have to request it otherwise it takes twenty four 799 00:49:52,719 --> 00:49:55,719 Speaker 1: hours for when that re refresh happens. You think with 800 00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:58,320 Speaker 1: a big company like that, it would happen more regularly, 801 00:49:58,360 --> 00:50:00,319 Speaker 1: but it's just like a one time thing a day. 802 00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:03,920 Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. Well, so that that 803 00:50:04,000 --> 00:50:06,120 Speaker 1: was one of the major issues, and that created a 804 00:50:06,120 --> 00:50:09,960 Speaker 1: lot of problems because sometimes something just the transfer would 805 00:50:10,000 --> 00:50:13,640 Speaker 1: get a little corrupted if service was interrupted in between. Right, So, 806 00:50:13,719 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: if you're in the middle of a large file transfer, uh, 807 00:50:16,840 --> 00:50:19,880 Speaker 1: if something occurred to the power, you may lose some data. 808 00:50:20,480 --> 00:50:23,000 Speaker 1: And that was a big issue. And that's just one 809 00:50:23,040 --> 00:50:26,279 Speaker 1: example of a problem that could come there. The other 810 00:50:26,360 --> 00:50:30,960 Speaker 1: major problem is that with any with any software system 811 00:50:31,040 --> 00:50:35,160 Speaker 1: like this, there should be a essentially a dictionary of 812 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:39,040 Speaker 1: entries that are possible. So if you've got a point 813 00:50:39,040 --> 00:50:41,920 Speaker 1: of sale and then you've got a server that's checking everything, 814 00:50:42,239 --> 00:50:44,760 Speaker 1: you want to make sure that when you send stuff 815 00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:47,279 Speaker 1: to the server, the server understands what the heck you're 816 00:50:47,280 --> 00:50:50,640 Speaker 1: talking about, what numbers you're crunching, what all these things represent. 817 00:50:51,360 --> 00:50:53,960 Speaker 1: So I'm gonna go back to McDonald's really quickly. If 818 00:50:53,960 --> 00:50:57,279 Speaker 1: you imagine the McDonald's menu just laid out, if you 819 00:50:57,280 --> 00:51:01,440 Speaker 1: ever looked at one before, and now imagine that the 820 00:51:01,480 --> 00:51:04,840 Speaker 1: person from whom you're ordering at the let's say the 821 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,799 Speaker 1: to go window or of the drive through, they've got 822 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,959 Speaker 1: essentially the same menu in front of them, only it's 823 00:51:12,040 --> 00:51:14,400 Speaker 1: represented as a touch screen with buttons. So when you 824 00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,600 Speaker 1: order something, I can enter in exactly what you're ordering, 825 00:51:18,440 --> 00:51:21,759 Speaker 1: and it's all representative. Machine understands exactly what it is. 826 00:51:21,840 --> 00:51:25,360 Speaker 1: Everybody who's gonna make your food for you, they understand 827 00:51:25,400 --> 00:51:28,799 Speaker 1: what you're ordering. Everybody speaking the same language is a 828 00:51:28,840 --> 00:51:34,440 Speaker 1: great comparison, by the way, Yes, so in this case, 829 00:51:34,920 --> 00:51:39,080 Speaker 1: they didn't have that layer that the dictionary of terms. 830 00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:43,880 Speaker 1: So when one postmaster is entering in you know X 831 00:51:44,000 --> 00:51:47,680 Speaker 1: number of stamps and there was postage with a certain 832 00:51:48,239 --> 00:51:50,960 Speaker 1: weight that was sent out, and all this stuff they're 833 00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:54,800 Speaker 1: putting in a single entry or multiple entries. There wasn't 834 00:51:54,840 --> 00:51:59,200 Speaker 1: always a common parlament, a common language that was being 835 00:51:59,239 --> 00:52:03,120 Speaker 1: spoken there to where the server when you you would 836 00:52:03,400 --> 00:52:05,440 Speaker 1: have all of these entries for the end of the day, 837 00:52:05,480 --> 00:52:12,120 Speaker 1: the server would only recognize them them of them the 838 00:52:12,200 --> 00:52:16,640 Speaker 1: other you know two to that is didn't understand a 839 00:52:16,680 --> 00:52:19,000 Speaker 1: lot of times, it would just throw those entries out 840 00:52:19,040 --> 00:52:21,880 Speaker 1: as though they didn't exist. It wasn't real. Those weren't 841 00:52:21,880 --> 00:52:26,680 Speaker 1: actual numbers, so that money would literally disappear. It was 842 00:52:26,760 --> 00:52:31,440 Speaker 1: just gone. No transactions occurred, nobody gets billed, it's just done. 843 00:52:32,920 --> 00:52:35,960 Speaker 1: Or But the other thing is if a transaction did occur, 844 00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:39,480 Speaker 1: and let's say money NOL came out of your bank account, 845 00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:43,560 Speaker 1: but it never shows up on the books of the postmaster, 846 00:52:43,680 --> 00:52:48,920 Speaker 1: the subpostmaster, that means you lost money somehow, but the 847 00:52:48,960 --> 00:52:51,799 Speaker 1: post office never collects that money, I guess, or or 848 00:52:51,960 --> 00:52:55,160 Speaker 1: it gets a little weird there to know exactly what 849 00:52:55,200 --> 00:53:01,080 Speaker 1: occurred on each subpostmasters or under each subpostmasters watch. And 850 00:53:01,120 --> 00:53:04,400 Speaker 1: that's why they were everybody was being prosecuted individually. And 851 00:53:04,440 --> 00:53:06,920 Speaker 1: it never seemed to be a massive problem with this 852 00:53:07,200 --> 00:53:09,479 Speaker 1: with the software. And you made a really great point 853 00:53:09,480 --> 00:53:12,120 Speaker 1: mat about the franchise e situation from the star in 854 00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:15,399 Speaker 1: this McDonald's metaphor that you've carried on throughout this story, 855 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:17,719 Speaker 1: and I think it absolutely works. Um. But I just 856 00:53:17,760 --> 00:53:20,320 Speaker 1: want to point out again when I hear the name postmaster, 857 00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,000 Speaker 1: what I think in my mind is postmaster general, which 858 00:53:23,080 --> 00:53:26,440 Speaker 1: is like a single position over a giant organization. There 859 00:53:26,440 --> 00:53:31,080 Speaker 1: are hundreds of these. Postmaster and post mistress, by the way, 860 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,560 Speaker 1: is actually another official name which seems a little uh dated, um, 861 00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,239 Speaker 1: but it definitely was in one of the articles in 862 00:53:37,239 --> 00:53:39,279 Speaker 1: the BBC that I read. Um, so it appears to 863 00:53:39,280 --> 00:53:42,440 Speaker 1: be the official term they've used, But aren't aren't. There 864 00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:45,040 Speaker 1: aren't a lot of these being walked back now, Matt. 865 00:53:45,200 --> 00:53:46,840 Speaker 1: And then many of them are being sent back to 866 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:50,560 Speaker 1: the courts because essentially talking about jumping to conclusions, that's 867 00:53:50,560 --> 00:53:54,279 Speaker 1: exactly what happened, as opposed to recognizing a pattern, uh 868 00:53:54,320 --> 00:53:57,640 Speaker 1: and realizing more quickly and efficiently. This is a problem 869 00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:02,239 Speaker 1: inherent in the platform, not in a weirdly out of 870 00:54:02,280 --> 00:54:06,479 Speaker 1: the blue rash of of embezzlements, you know, throughout the system. Right. Yes, 871 00:54:06,560 --> 00:54:09,960 Speaker 1: as of right now, this is a fairly positive story 872 00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:13,719 Speaker 1: because many of these individuals names are being cleared. I 873 00:54:13,760 --> 00:54:16,200 Speaker 1: think as of three days ago, according to the BBC, 874 00:54:16,800 --> 00:54:23,200 Speaker 1: there are five hundred and fifty five claimants that in 875 00:54:23,280 --> 00:54:27,239 Speaker 1: December agreed to they m the Post Office agreed to 876 00:54:27,280 --> 00:54:30,640 Speaker 1: settle with them. So there will be a lot of 877 00:54:30,680 --> 00:54:34,440 Speaker 1: money going back to these individuals. I think, oh wow, 878 00:54:34,480 --> 00:54:38,400 Speaker 1: it's fifty eight million pounds in damage. That's what the 879 00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:42,200 Speaker 1: Post Office has agreed to pay overall overall. Yes, and 880 00:54:42,239 --> 00:54:45,360 Speaker 1: the claimants individually are going to receive around twelve million 881 00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:49,160 Speaker 1: pounds of that and that's five and fifty five individuals. 882 00:54:49,160 --> 00:54:52,880 Speaker 1: So you do the math there. Um. You know, it 883 00:54:52,920 --> 00:54:56,400 Speaker 1: doesn't mean those people get the parts of their lives 884 00:54:56,400 --> 00:55:00,640 Speaker 1: back that were irreparably damaged from the time that they 885 00:55:00,680 --> 00:55:04,440 Speaker 1: spent as you know, someone charged with a major crime 886 00:55:04,560 --> 00:55:08,040 Speaker 1: like like theft in that way, basically theft from the government, 887 00:55:08,680 --> 00:55:13,600 Speaker 1: which is doesn't look good on a on an application um. 888 00:55:13,640 --> 00:55:16,920 Speaker 1: And there are further cases that are being looked at 889 00:55:17,000 --> 00:55:21,960 Speaker 1: outside of those people. There's something that's so hilarious to 890 00:55:21,960 --> 00:55:25,440 Speaker 1: me about this. It's funny amidst the very tragic thing 891 00:55:25,480 --> 00:55:29,000 Speaker 1: because as you said, Matt, these folks will never get 892 00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:31,880 Speaker 1: that time back and you can't really put a price 893 00:55:31,960 --> 00:55:35,239 Speaker 1: on it. But the thing that's funny to me is 894 00:55:35,280 --> 00:55:39,160 Speaker 1: that you know, at some point there was somebody tracking 895 00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:43,239 Speaker 1: down these cases who believed there was a nationwide cabal 896 00:55:43,920 --> 00:55:49,880 Speaker 1: of of evil postmass subpostmasters who were scheming on the 897 00:55:49,920 --> 00:55:56,000 Speaker 1: government and a really weird, easily discernible way. And so this, 898 00:55:56,320 --> 00:56:00,080 Speaker 1: I would say, this damage to their reputations, damage to 899 00:56:00,200 --> 00:56:04,799 Speaker 1: these individuals reputations isn't just one of like painting them 900 00:56:04,840 --> 00:56:10,960 Speaker 1: as uh, financial criminals. It's painting them as very incompetent criminals, 901 00:56:11,160 --> 00:56:15,160 Speaker 1: when in fact, it turns out that the Japanese company, 902 00:56:15,200 --> 00:56:17,920 Speaker 1: which was one of the world's most admired companies, have 903 00:56:17,960 --> 00:56:20,919 Speaker 1: won an award for it. Uh, it was actually their 904 00:56:20,920 --> 00:56:24,279 Speaker 1: incompetence all at long. So glad to see justice, serve 905 00:56:24,360 --> 00:56:29,200 Speaker 1: Glad they're getting better, better settlement terms than TikTok claimants. 906 00:56:29,200 --> 00:56:34,320 Speaker 1: But it's it's still a it's still an unfortunate situation 907 00:56:34,520 --> 00:56:37,160 Speaker 1: all around. And look, people who work at the post 908 00:56:37,200 --> 00:56:42,040 Speaker 1: office works so insanely hard. You get a lot of 909 00:56:42,040 --> 00:56:45,319 Speaker 1: bad press about them in the US because for a 910 00:56:45,480 --> 00:56:49,239 Speaker 1: very long time, aspects of this country's political structure, I've 911 00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:53,120 Speaker 1: been trying to render the post office, have been trying 912 00:56:53,120 --> 00:56:55,160 Speaker 1: to cripple it and render it extinct for a number 913 00:56:55,200 --> 00:56:59,719 Speaker 1: of reasons. But don't believe the anti post propaganda, you 914 00:56:59,719 --> 00:57:02,399 Speaker 1: know what I mean, be diceier post office person next 915 00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:06,120 Speaker 1: time you see it. Yeah, totally, yes, yes, And I'm 916 00:57:06,120 --> 00:57:08,200 Speaker 1: gonna leave you with this. This is something that the 917 00:57:08,239 --> 00:57:12,280 Speaker 1: BBC ended their article with. Uh, it's just the fact 918 00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:16,280 Speaker 1: that all of these people's lives were affected because of 919 00:57:16,360 --> 00:57:20,040 Speaker 1: faulty software, or at least it appears that that is so. 920 00:57:20,320 --> 00:57:23,600 Speaker 1: And the Post Office is settling four millions and millions 921 00:57:23,600 --> 00:57:28,280 Speaker 1: of pounds with that as as the fact. Essentially, Matt 922 00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,480 Speaker 1: really quickly did I miss what happened to the money? 923 00:57:30,560 --> 00:57:32,640 Speaker 1: Did they? Did it ever come back? Was it ever? 924 00:57:32,880 --> 00:57:34,680 Speaker 1: Was it never really gone in the first place, it 925 00:57:34,760 --> 00:57:37,600 Speaker 1: was just a calculating error. Or was there never actually 926 00:57:37,600 --> 00:57:41,440 Speaker 1: any money that was was disappeared? Oh? Yeah, as a 927 00:57:41,440 --> 00:57:44,040 Speaker 1: as we were talking about earlier, it was it was 928 00:57:44,120 --> 00:57:49,360 Speaker 1: money that disappeared off of the books, but individuals were 929 00:57:49,560 --> 00:57:52,800 Speaker 1: still paid money. It just never made it to the 930 00:57:52,800 --> 00:57:55,640 Speaker 1: post office. So there was missing money. I remember that. 931 00:57:55,680 --> 00:57:57,200 Speaker 1: I just wanted to make sure that was super clear. 932 00:57:57,280 --> 00:58:01,880 Speaker 1: So now they're on the hook for real money. Yes, yes, 933 00:58:02,240 --> 00:58:04,520 Speaker 1: and and it's because of this Horizon software at least 934 00:58:04,560 --> 00:58:08,920 Speaker 1: that's what's being alleged. That's what's being settled right now. Um. 935 00:58:08,960 --> 00:58:11,000 Speaker 1: And that's why there are a lot of other cases. 936 00:58:11,080 --> 00:58:14,680 Speaker 1: There's there's this thing happening right now in the high 937 00:58:14,720 --> 00:58:19,520 Speaker 1: courts in in the UK where there are twenty four 938 00:58:19,680 --> 00:58:26,920 Speaker 1: twenty five hundred other individuals. Yeah, two thousand, four hundred 939 00:58:27,000 --> 00:58:31,640 Speaker 1: people are more than that who are attempting to really 940 00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:35,920 Speaker 1: settle another claim here, and the Post Office set up. 941 00:58:35,960 --> 00:58:38,200 Speaker 1: I guess a fund or you know, a certain amount 942 00:58:38,280 --> 00:58:41,560 Speaker 1: of money to then pay out some of those claims. 943 00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:44,360 Speaker 1: But they are worried they're gonna need a lot more, 944 00:58:44,400 --> 00:58:47,480 Speaker 1: so they're gonna see seek help from the government itself. 945 00:58:47,640 --> 00:58:50,680 Speaker 1: Have you seen anything about the Post Office potentially suing 946 00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:54,479 Speaker 1: the software company. I have not seen that right now 947 00:58:54,560 --> 00:58:58,640 Speaker 1: because as of right now in the court, in the 948 00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:02,920 Speaker 1: actual courts, the Post Office is not like there's no 949 00:59:03,000 --> 00:59:05,680 Speaker 1: individual who made a decision about the software in the 950 00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:09,200 Speaker 1: Post Office who's being held to account. There's no individual 951 00:59:09,360 --> 00:59:11,800 Speaker 1: or a group of people at Fujitsu who developed the 952 00:59:11,840 --> 00:59:15,680 Speaker 1: software being held to account. So I don't know no 953 00:59:15,800 --> 00:59:18,640 Speaker 1: news right now. I was looking to this too because 954 00:59:18,680 --> 00:59:22,520 Speaker 1: I think this this news captured all of our attention. Also, 955 00:59:22,560 --> 00:59:26,320 Speaker 1: I wanted to give a shout out to conspiracy realist Jake, 956 00:59:26,560 --> 00:59:29,000 Speaker 1: who was the first person to write to us about this. 957 00:59:29,120 --> 00:59:31,120 Speaker 1: In a happy accident, Jake, we were reading a lot 958 00:59:31,160 --> 00:59:34,560 Speaker 1: of the same things. Uh. Post Office Chief executive Nick 959 00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:37,720 Speaker 1: Reid is actually one of the main voices who is 960 00:59:37,800 --> 00:59:41,640 Speaker 1: calling on for compensation, which is I think speaks really 961 00:59:41,680 --> 00:59:44,760 Speaker 1: highly to his character. But my other question is this 962 00:59:44,880 --> 00:59:46,960 Speaker 1: is something we we definitely need to put in the 963 00:59:47,040 --> 00:59:50,480 Speaker 1: show here, guys, Uh, what is going to replace Horizon? 964 00:59:50,760 --> 00:59:53,680 Speaker 1: So far they've said they'll get to a cloud based 965 00:59:53,800 --> 00:59:57,520 Speaker 1: service of some sort at this point. But right now, 966 00:59:57,800 --> 00:59:59,880 Speaker 1: as far as I know, correct me if I'm off her, 967 01:00:00,000 --> 01:00:03,120 Speaker 1: as far as the day to day life of the 968 01:00:03,160 --> 01:00:07,720 Speaker 1: subpostmasters who have not yet gone down for post fraud, Uh, 969 01:00:07,760 --> 01:00:12,320 Speaker 1: they're still using Horizon, which means two things. To mean first, 970 01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,960 Speaker 1: it means there could be other false reports of crime 971 01:00:15,200 --> 01:00:20,000 Speaker 1: and then secondly, if there is some villainous evil sub 972 01:00:20,040 --> 01:00:24,040 Speaker 1: postmaster subpostmistress out there, although they don't care for the 973 01:00:24,080 --> 01:00:26,840 Speaker 1: gendering of the words there, if there is someone who 974 01:00:26,920 --> 01:00:30,880 Speaker 1: is nefarious and unethical in this situation, now's the time, 975 01:00:31,240 --> 01:00:33,560 Speaker 1: right like, now is kind of the time to go. 976 01:00:33,800 --> 01:00:39,040 Speaker 1: You'll get away with it. Don't do it, it's time 977 01:00:39,080 --> 01:00:45,960 Speaker 1: to do it, don't do it? All right? Well, I 978 01:00:46,000 --> 01:00:48,640 Speaker 1: think we may have to revisit this again in the 979 01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:50,640 Speaker 1: future just to give an update, but for right now, 980 01:00:50,800 --> 01:00:54,160 Speaker 1: that is what's happening in the news in the UK 981 01:00:54,320 --> 01:01:01,080 Speaker 1: with the Postmaster Subpostmaster General's UK heavy episode today. Uh. Hey, 982 01:01:01,120 --> 01:01:04,560 Speaker 1: thank you so much for yeah, Jake, for learning us 983 01:01:04,560 --> 01:01:08,240 Speaker 1: to that. But honestly, I this was me, Yeah, just 984 01:01:08,360 --> 01:01:10,200 Speaker 1: reading a bunch of stories, trying to figure out what 985 01:01:10,200 --> 01:01:12,400 Speaker 1: to talk about today. So but thank you for learning me. 986 01:01:12,720 --> 01:01:15,280 Speaker 1: Maybe I thought about it subconsciously while I was looking 987 01:01:15,320 --> 01:01:17,360 Speaker 1: at the news today. I all think, so the same 988 01:01:17,360 --> 01:01:20,960 Speaker 1: thing happened happened to me because I I love getting 989 01:01:21,080 --> 01:01:23,920 Speaker 1: this kind of correspondence. So, Jake, I want you to 990 01:01:24,000 --> 01:01:28,040 Speaker 1: know when I opened that email, I muttered, God damn 991 01:01:28,080 --> 01:01:31,240 Speaker 1: it to myself in the happiest way, because it meant 992 01:01:31,360 --> 01:01:33,600 Speaker 1: that all of us throughout the same page of Matt. 993 01:01:33,680 --> 01:01:36,320 Speaker 1: I think this is something that was on all three 994 01:01:36,360 --> 01:01:38,640 Speaker 1: of our minds because this is one of those stories 995 01:01:38,680 --> 01:01:41,160 Speaker 1: we each wanted to examine. Noel, you would said the 996 01:01:41,200 --> 01:01:43,600 Speaker 1: same thing earlier. Oh, I was just uh, I was 997 01:01:43,640 --> 01:01:47,440 Speaker 1: actually researching this for my listener Male episode. It was 998 01:01:47,480 --> 01:01:50,360 Speaker 1: definitely definite parallel thinking. And then I went to our 999 01:01:50,440 --> 01:01:53,400 Speaker 1: document spreadsheet that we shared and I saw it. I 1000 01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:56,320 Speaker 1: also uttered a goddamn it. It wasn't quite as good 1001 01:01:56,400 --> 01:01:58,840 Speaker 1: natured as yours, Ben, but I'm glad we got it 1002 01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:01,560 Speaker 1: out there just the same aim. And Uh, I was, 1003 01:02:01,960 --> 01:02:04,960 Speaker 1: you know, prepared to discuss it. So very very very 1004 01:02:05,000 --> 01:02:08,080 Speaker 1: interesting story and one to follow for sure, well sorry, 1005 01:02:08,200 --> 01:02:10,400 Speaker 1: not sorry. If you want to be like Jake who 1006 01:02:10,480 --> 01:02:12,400 Speaker 1: wrote to us, you can do the same. You can 1007 01:02:12,440 --> 01:02:16,360 Speaker 1: find us all over the place on social media. On 1008 01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:20,240 Speaker 1: Facebook and Twitter we are conspiracy stuff, and on Instagram 1009 01:02:20,280 --> 01:02:24,680 Speaker 1: we are conspiracy stuff. Show on YouTube we are conspiracy stuff. 1010 01:02:24,880 --> 01:02:27,640 Speaker 1: Whoa look at that. You can see all the videos 1011 01:02:27,680 --> 01:02:29,600 Speaker 1: that we did way back in the day, all the 1012 01:02:29,640 --> 01:02:34,000 Speaker 1: way up until this week. Check it out. I can subscribe, 1013 01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:36,360 Speaker 1: I guess, or turn on notifications. I don't know how 1014 01:02:36,400 --> 01:02:38,360 Speaker 1: it works. Now you can. You can watch our videos. 1015 01:02:38,360 --> 01:02:40,120 Speaker 1: If you're pointing at the bottom of the screen right 1016 01:02:40,120 --> 01:02:42,640 Speaker 1: now and you say that, Matt. Sure. If you are 1017 01:02:42,760 --> 01:02:45,200 Speaker 1: not someone who likes the sip on the SuDS of 1018 01:02:45,240 --> 01:02:48,280 Speaker 1: social meads, never have worry. You can always call us 1019 01:02:48,320 --> 01:02:52,160 Speaker 1: directly at our phone line. We are one eight three 1020 01:02:52,280 --> 01:02:55,720 Speaker 1: three st d w y t K three minutes. Those 1021 01:02:55,760 --> 01:02:58,960 Speaker 1: minutes are yours. You'll hear a brief message and then 1022 01:02:59,400 --> 01:03:01,360 Speaker 1: just pop in. Let us know what's on your mind. 1023 01:03:01,480 --> 01:03:05,440 Speaker 1: Would love to hear what you think of the post 1024 01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:09,840 Speaker 1: office shenanigans, what your opinion of privacy online and TikTok are, 1025 01:03:10,120 --> 01:03:13,800 Speaker 1: and of course your experiences with things that may or 1026 01:03:13,840 --> 01:03:16,960 Speaker 1: may not be considered cults. Uh. If that three minutes 1027 01:03:17,000 --> 01:03:20,480 Speaker 1: doesn't work, have no fear. Please do not edit yourself, 1028 01:03:20,920 --> 01:03:24,360 Speaker 1: Please tell us the whole story. Don't admit anything. Give 1029 01:03:24,400 --> 01:03:26,840 Speaker 1: yourself a cool nickname too, we always love those, and 1030 01:03:26,880 --> 01:03:29,240 Speaker 1: send us a good old fashioned email where we are 1031 01:03:29,520 --> 01:03:51,120 Speaker 1: conspiracy at iHeart radio dot com. Stuff they don't want 1032 01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:53,480 Speaker 1: you to know is a production of I heart Radio. 1033 01:03:53,840 --> 01:03:56,080 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 1034 01:03:56,160 --> 01:03:59,040 Speaker 1: heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to 1035 01:03:59,080 --> 01:03:59,880 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.