1 00:00:11,880 --> 00:00:14,800 Speaker 1: Good morning, peeps, and welcome to okay f Daily with 2 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:18,599 Speaker 1: Meet Your Girl Danielle Moody, recording not so live from 3 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:22,599 Speaker 1: the Podstream studios here in Times Square. Folks. I'm really 4 00:00:22,600 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: excited to bring on today's guest because for the longest 5 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: time I have been thinking about my relationship to work 6 00:00:31,360 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: as my work has shifted and evolved over the past 7 00:00:34,120 --> 00:00:38,480 Speaker 1: couple of years. And author and sociologist Aaron Seck, who 8 00:00:38,479 --> 00:00:42,159 Speaker 1: wrote the book The Trouble with Passion, How searching for 9 00:00:42,240 --> 00:00:48,440 Speaker 1: fulfillment at work fosters inequality, brings up some really interesting questions. 10 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:51,720 Speaker 1: For the longest time, we've always been taught or told right, 11 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,240 Speaker 1: love what you do, and then it won't feel like work. 12 00:00:55,440 --> 00:01:00,720 Speaker 1: Follow your passion right to do all of these grand things. One, 13 00:01:01,040 --> 00:01:04,200 Speaker 1: I think we need to acknowledge the place of privilege 14 00:01:04,240 --> 00:01:07,280 Speaker 1: that those sentiments come from, because there are plenty of 15 00:01:07,280 --> 00:01:10,679 Speaker 1: people who work in service oriented industries where there is 16 00:01:10,720 --> 00:01:13,960 Speaker 1: anything but passion or joy. Right, it is a means 17 00:01:14,000 --> 00:01:16,240 Speaker 1: to an end and an opportunity for them to put 18 00:01:16,280 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: food on their table, pay their bills, you know, and 19 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 1: simply adult. But for those of us who are in 20 00:01:23,959 --> 00:01:29,120 Speaker 1: more white collar professional spaces, I think that the past 21 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:33,280 Speaker 1: year plus has offered us an opportunity to really think 22 00:01:33,319 --> 00:01:36,200 Speaker 1: about how it is that we work and what we 23 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:39,880 Speaker 1: want our relationship to work to be. A couple of 24 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:44,720 Speaker 1: years ago, I decided after I had been working in 25 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:48,440 Speaker 1: policy in Washington, d C. For many years, and then 26 00:01:48,520 --> 00:01:53,440 Speaker 1: had transitioned into doing more media work, then transitioned out 27 00:01:53,440 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: of both of those things, and then wanted to make 28 00:01:56,160 --> 00:01:59,560 Speaker 1: a move from Washington, DC to New York. I was 29 00:01:59,600 --> 00:02:04,320 Speaker 1: working at a very well known PR and communications firm, 30 00:02:05,320 --> 00:02:11,280 Speaker 1: and my relationship to work changed dramatically. I was working 31 00:02:11,600 --> 00:02:18,079 Speaker 1: roughly on average, sixty to eighty hours a week. My 32 00:02:18,240 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: phone was attached to my hip. It went off all 33 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:27,160 Speaker 1: the time, anytime, morning, noon, or night, holidays. It didn't 34 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:31,520 Speaker 1: matter because part of my work was PR, the other 35 00:02:31,680 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: part was crisis PR right, and so you just need 36 00:02:34,760 --> 00:02:37,640 Speaker 1: to be on all the time and the client is 37 00:02:37,760 --> 00:02:43,560 Speaker 1: always right. That was the sentiment my relationship to work, 38 00:02:43,720 --> 00:02:48,560 Speaker 1: where I had always oriented myself with organizations and spaces 39 00:02:48,560 --> 00:02:53,000 Speaker 1: where I had and felt shared mission and value, and 40 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:55,960 Speaker 1: I was just exhausted. On top of which I was 41 00:02:56,040 --> 00:02:59,480 Speaker 1: making an obscene commute because I had just moved back 42 00:02:59,480 --> 00:03:02,359 Speaker 1: to New York and I didn't have a place of 43 00:03:02,360 --> 00:03:04,240 Speaker 1: my own yet, and so I was staying with my 44 00:03:04,280 --> 00:03:07,760 Speaker 1: family on Long Island. I was making an obscene commute 45 00:03:07,760 --> 00:03:10,040 Speaker 1: into the city every day. It was a three hour 46 00:03:10,600 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 1: round trip commute, every single day, five days a week. 47 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,560 Speaker 1: Everything was weighing on me. The job was weighing on me, 48 00:03:19,600 --> 00:03:22,120 Speaker 1: the commute was weighing on me, and it showed. It 49 00:03:22,240 --> 00:03:26,160 Speaker 1: showed up because everything for me, when it pertains to stress, 50 00:03:26,560 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 1: manifests itself Physically. I was starting to look really ashy, 51 00:03:31,400 --> 00:03:34,760 Speaker 1: lose color, I was gaining tons of weight. I just 52 00:03:34,960 --> 00:03:39,800 Speaker 1: felt like shit, and so I made a really tough decision, 53 00:03:40,000 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: And it was a similar decision that I had made 54 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:46,600 Speaker 1: a couple of years prior. There are moments in my 55 00:03:46,640 --> 00:03:52,119 Speaker 1: life where either tragedy or just burnout requires me to 56 00:03:52,200 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: make adjustments and realign myself. When I had left a 57 00:03:57,720 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: nonprofit back in DC, I left in the midst of tragedy. 58 00:04:02,640 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: One of my closest friends had died in a motorcycle 59 00:04:07,000 --> 00:04:11,240 Speaker 1: accident outside of the country, and it had me wondering 60 00:04:11,360 --> 00:04:14,040 Speaker 1: what the fuck I was doing with my life. If 61 00:04:14,080 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 1: everything can be up in smoke and gone in an instant, 62 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,200 Speaker 1: then what does it mean to really live, and I 63 00:04:22,279 --> 00:04:25,840 Speaker 1: recognized that at that time I was working at an 64 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:30,080 Speaker 1: organization that was doing really great work, working on environmental education, 65 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:33,240 Speaker 1: working on saving the planet and the environment, but it 66 00:04:33,320 --> 00:04:35,760 Speaker 1: wasn't my passion and it didn't feel like my purpose. 67 00:04:36,240 --> 00:04:38,800 Speaker 1: I was getting promoted and I was good at what 68 00:04:38,839 --> 00:04:41,320 Speaker 1: I was doing, but I didn't love it. And for me, 69 00:04:41,520 --> 00:04:44,920 Speaker 1: loving what I'd do was more important than anything else, 70 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,480 Speaker 1: And in the moment of tragedy and loss, it had 71 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:52,000 Speaker 1: me reassess what I was doing and how I wanted 72 00:04:52,520 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: my time. Whatever time I did have left to be 73 00:04:55,680 --> 00:04:59,360 Speaker 1: of service, but what kind of service? So I left 74 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:04,520 Speaker 1: my job and I replaced my energy, realigned my energy 75 00:05:04,760 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: into building out my first podcast and my first media platform. 76 00:05:10,600 --> 00:05:16,719 Speaker 1: That was in the early twenty tens. Then fast forward 77 00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:21,000 Speaker 1: to a couple of years later when I would enter 78 00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:25,520 Speaker 1: into a completely different industry working in PR. Because everything 79 00:05:25,560 --> 00:05:29,279 Speaker 1: in media at that point I had learned. I taught myself, 80 00:05:30,320 --> 00:05:34,720 Speaker 1: but the hours were ridiculous. My body, my mind, my 81 00:05:34,839 --> 00:05:38,479 Speaker 1: spirit just could not keep pace. So after a couple 82 00:05:38,480 --> 00:05:41,559 Speaker 1: of years, I decided to pull the plug and thought 83 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: that I wanted to go and work at a startup. 84 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:45,760 Speaker 1: But after a couple of months there, I realized that 85 00:05:45,800 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: this wasn't a good fit either. So I did the 86 00:05:48,279 --> 00:05:51,320 Speaker 1: ultimate thing. I took a risk and a bet on myself, 87 00:05:51,680 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: and I said, I'm going to take a handful of 88 00:05:53,480 --> 00:05:56,000 Speaker 1: clients that I have, I'm going to take the media 89 00:05:56,080 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: work that I do, and I'm going to create. Essentially, 90 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:01,120 Speaker 1: if I were in college, they would call it an 91 00:06:01,120 --> 00:06:05,720 Speaker 1: independent study. I created my own path, design my own 92 00:06:05,760 --> 00:06:09,599 Speaker 1: work and how I wanted to work and the things 93 00:06:09,680 --> 00:06:12,599 Speaker 1: that allow me to do what it is that I 94 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 1: do is one All of you who are so supportive, 95 00:06:16,880 --> 00:06:20,640 Speaker 1: both financially and emotionally and spiritually with your you know, 96 00:06:20,800 --> 00:06:23,520 Speaker 1: keep going and keep pushing and keep speaking out sis. 97 00:06:23,600 --> 00:06:27,360 Speaker 1: I can't tell you how much your comments and your 98 00:06:27,400 --> 00:06:31,160 Speaker 1: thumbs up and your likes and your shares really do 99 00:06:31,279 --> 00:06:35,000 Speaker 1: bolster me, particularly when our political climate gets me down. 100 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,040 Speaker 1: But I say all that to say that I decided 101 00:06:39,080 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 1: to design my life around how I wanted to feel 102 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: and how I wanted to be of service. And again 103 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: understanding that that's a privilege, I knew that if I 104 00:06:49,440 --> 00:06:52,720 Speaker 1: wanted to take this risk on myself, and God forbid 105 00:06:52,720 --> 00:06:55,280 Speaker 1: I failed, I wasn't going to be out on the street. 106 00:06:55,640 --> 00:06:58,280 Speaker 1: I didn't have kids, you know, so I don't have 107 00:06:58,600 --> 00:07:01,160 Speaker 1: to worry about mouth to feed other than my own. 108 00:07:01,600 --> 00:07:04,240 Speaker 1: And you know, I know that I have family and 109 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 1: friends that act as emotional support and if I needed 110 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,920 Speaker 1: to lean on them in another way could also float 111 00:07:12,000 --> 00:07:17,080 Speaker 1: me as well. Again understanding those points of privilege. But 112 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:19,640 Speaker 1: the reality is is that we do have the ability 113 00:07:19,720 --> 00:07:22,280 Speaker 1: to design the kind of lives that we want. And 114 00:07:22,320 --> 00:07:25,720 Speaker 1: I think that the questions and the tools that Erin 115 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 1: provides in her book really allow us to kind of 116 00:07:29,280 --> 00:07:33,720 Speaker 1: think about how do I want to feel right? Knowing 117 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:38,200 Speaker 1: that we all, unless you're some type of heiress, will 118 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,640 Speaker 1: need to work, right, but what is our relationship to 119 00:07:41,680 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 1: work and how do we create a relationship that is healthy. 120 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,360 Speaker 1: One of the questions that you will hear me ask 121 00:07:47,440 --> 00:07:52,200 Speaker 1: Aaron is about, you know, whether or not we're asking 122 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: or expecting too much of work? Right? Well, we know 123 00:07:55,360 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: that work expects too much of us, But because we 124 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,320 Speaker 1: are there for forty fifty sixty and plus hours a week, 125 00:08:02,960 --> 00:08:05,840 Speaker 1: are we looking at work in the way that if 126 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,840 Speaker 1: we had more time or could reorient our time, we 127 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,200 Speaker 1: would be able to put towards hobbies. Does work or 128 00:08:13,240 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: should work be a passion project, when in fact, we 129 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:20,600 Speaker 1: should never be pouring all of ourselves into one thing, 130 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:24,040 Speaker 1: one person, or one space or place. And so what 131 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:29,680 Speaker 1: does it look like to diversify, right, what is meaningful 132 00:08:29,840 --> 00:08:34,000 Speaker 1: to us and where we find that meaning? Aaron will 133 00:08:34,080 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: unpack this in our conversation, which I hope that you 134 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:43,480 Speaker 1: guys enjoy, because it really was incredibly illuminating. You know. 135 00:08:43,960 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: I can remember in high school one hundred moons ago 136 00:08:49,240 --> 00:08:52,280 Speaker 1: going in to sit down with my guidance counselor. I 137 00:08:52,280 --> 00:08:55,600 Speaker 1: think it was approaching. I was in eleventh grade, right, 138 00:08:55,679 --> 00:08:59,680 Speaker 1: so you're starting to really think about college and where 139 00:08:59,679 --> 00:09:01,640 Speaker 1: you want to go and what you want to do. 140 00:09:01,679 --> 00:09:04,840 Speaker 1: And it's so crazy to me now as an adult, 141 00:09:05,320 --> 00:09:10,480 Speaker 1: thinking that we expect people at sixteen and seventeen years 142 00:09:10,480 --> 00:09:14,240 Speaker 1: old to put a stake in the ground and decide, Yeah, 143 00:09:14,240 --> 00:09:16,440 Speaker 1: for the next four years, I'm going to concentrate on 144 00:09:16,480 --> 00:09:17,920 Speaker 1: this thing, and then I'm going to go get this 145 00:09:18,040 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: job and I'm going to live this life. And we 146 00:09:20,559 --> 00:09:22,880 Speaker 1: expect people to be able to make that decision at 147 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:25,720 Speaker 1: sixteen and seventeen years old, but then don't allow people 148 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:29,200 Speaker 1: to drink until twenty one. It's very odd, what we like, 149 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:33,240 Speaker 1: the pressures and the expectations that we have, and what 150 00:09:33,280 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 1: we're socialized to believe is normal. And then in hindsight 151 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:39,360 Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, that's a terrible idea because for me, 152 00:09:40,200 --> 00:09:42,439 Speaker 1: I would have if I could go back in time, 153 00:09:43,320 --> 00:09:46,120 Speaker 1: I would have wanted to take a gap year. I 154 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:48,720 Speaker 1: believe in a gap year, I would have taken the 155 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,439 Speaker 1: year between high school and going to college and go 156 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:57,079 Speaker 1: and volunteer, do AmeriCorps, do Peace Corps, do something that 157 00:09:57,120 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: allowed me to actually see and experience the world and 158 00:10:00,480 --> 00:10:04,200 Speaker 1: feel and understand what I wanted my role to be 159 00:10:04,200 --> 00:10:07,959 Speaker 1: before I would then dive into anybody's studies. I also think, 160 00:10:08,440 --> 00:10:12,440 Speaker 1: you know, regardless of what kind of student that you are, 161 00:10:13,600 --> 00:10:17,640 Speaker 1: those twelve years, right, those you know from K through 162 00:10:17,679 --> 00:10:22,680 Speaker 1: twelve or isn't aggressive time of learning and growing and 163 00:10:22,800 --> 00:10:28,600 Speaker 1: experiencing life. And so really you should take a break, 164 00:10:29,080 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: right so that when you were showing up on campus 165 00:10:33,000 --> 00:10:37,400 Speaker 1: or at your vocational you know place that you are 166 00:10:37,480 --> 00:10:41,320 Speaker 1: ready and prepared and refreshed to be able to align 167 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 1: yourself and really like have an open mind and are 168 00:10:45,640 --> 00:10:49,360 Speaker 1: ready to grow and experience. Because I'll tell you that 169 00:10:49,640 --> 00:10:53,600 Speaker 1: I remember walking into my Guidance Counselor's office. I took 170 00:10:53,679 --> 00:10:57,280 Speaker 1: some type of test that was going to tell me 171 00:10:57,600 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: what kind of career that I should have, and if 172 00:11:01,040 --> 00:11:04,240 Speaker 1: funny enough, I believe God, I wish I had saved 173 00:11:04,240 --> 00:11:07,280 Speaker 1: that paper because that would be like wild to see. 174 00:11:07,679 --> 00:11:10,120 Speaker 1: But I want to say that some of the things 175 00:11:10,160 --> 00:11:15,880 Speaker 1: that were like pushed out after this test were journalists 176 00:11:16,400 --> 00:11:18,880 Speaker 1: I want to say was one of them. Lawyer was 177 00:11:18,920 --> 00:11:24,319 Speaker 1: another one. Something anything that had to do with like research, investigation, 178 00:11:24,520 --> 00:11:28,040 Speaker 1: asking lots of questions were the things. And you know, 179 00:11:28,160 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 1: if you know me, and obviously you do because you 180 00:11:30,240 --> 00:11:32,880 Speaker 1: listen to OKAYEF, you know that I pretty much kind 181 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:35,040 Speaker 1: of hit the nail on the head, but not without 182 00:11:35,080 --> 00:11:38,120 Speaker 1: a lot of, you know, trial and error along the way. 183 00:11:39,240 --> 00:11:41,920 Speaker 1: But I think that it's really interesting that instead of 184 00:11:43,200 --> 00:11:47,640 Speaker 1: asking young people what do you want to do, we 185 00:11:47,679 --> 00:11:50,680 Speaker 1: should start asking them how do you want to feel? 186 00:11:51,480 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: So that you can then learn to create a life 187 00:11:54,480 --> 00:12:00,920 Speaker 1: and a work life balance around that. Right. And I 188 00:12:00,960 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: think that these next generations are understanding their relationship to themselves, 189 00:12:08,440 --> 00:12:11,960 Speaker 1: their identities, and the kind of alignment that they want. 190 00:12:12,080 --> 00:12:16,959 Speaker 1: And I think, honestly it's from watching their parents and 191 00:12:17,040 --> 00:12:21,480 Speaker 1: their grandparents work out of alignment and work in a 192 00:12:21,520 --> 00:12:24,240 Speaker 1: way that it's just like, well, this is just the grind, 193 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:26,880 Speaker 1: this is the hustle, this is what you do, and 194 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:31,559 Speaker 1: recognizing that they are pausing their happiness for forty hours 195 00:12:31,600 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 1: a week right in and hoping that the weekend or 196 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:38,600 Speaker 1: that day and a half that we get is going 197 00:12:38,640 --> 00:12:41,240 Speaker 1: to be enough to fill all of the other gaps. 198 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: So this is a really exciting conversation that I have 199 00:12:45,000 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 1: with sociologists Aaron Seck and tell me in the comment 200 00:12:48,600 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 1: sections what you guys think about your relation to work. 201 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,079 Speaker 1: Has it changed, you know, during the great pause that 202 00:12:56,120 --> 00:12:59,640 Speaker 1: many of us had in twenty twenty. Did you leave 203 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: a job? J did you start a new job? Are 204 00:13:02,559 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 1: you in between spaces? Are you going into a totally 205 00:13:06,040 --> 00:13:09,400 Speaker 1: new industry? Let us know in the comment section below, 206 00:13:09,440 --> 00:13:11,440 Speaker 1: because I think it's in the conversation at least I 207 00:13:11,480 --> 00:13:14,080 Speaker 1: know that I've been having with my friends and family, 208 00:13:14,080 --> 00:13:16,480 Speaker 1: and I'm certain that you all are having it with yours. 209 00:13:16,520 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: So coming up next is my conversation with sociologist and 210 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:27,280 Speaker 1: author Aron sek Folks. I am very excited to welcome 211 00:13:27,320 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: to woka F for the first time, sociologist Aron Seck, 212 00:13:31,520 --> 00:13:34,959 Speaker 1: who is the author of The Trouble with Passion, how 213 00:13:35,040 --> 00:13:40,760 Speaker 1: searching for fulfillment at work fosters inequality er I feel 214 00:13:40,840 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: like I have been telling people and providing people with 215 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: the wrong advice after reading your book. The thing that 216 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: we've always been told that if you love what you do, 217 00:13:54,160 --> 00:13:57,400 Speaker 1: it won't feel like work, that if you just go 218 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 1: after your passion, then you know, all will be Well, 219 00:14:01,640 --> 00:14:05,679 Speaker 1: what are we getting wrong about this? Well, first of all, 220 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:10,200 Speaker 1: it's a natural response to the complexity of the labor market. Right. 221 00:14:10,200 --> 00:14:12,920 Speaker 1: We see the labor market out there. We know that 222 00:14:12,960 --> 00:14:16,240 Speaker 1: people are working not forty hours a week, but fifty 223 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:18,679 Speaker 1: or sixty or seventy hours a week, and so the 224 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: idea of saying, well, I might as well love when 225 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:23,600 Speaker 1: I do if that's going to be the labor force 226 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:26,800 Speaker 1: I'm going into, seems like a pretty rational response. So 227 00:14:27,560 --> 00:14:33,400 Speaker 1: what we're getting wrong is the recognition that passion seeking 228 00:14:33,560 --> 00:14:38,720 Speaker 1: is based in privilege. So it's based in having safety 229 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,160 Speaker 1: nets and springboards that can be able to support people 230 00:14:43,600 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: to be able to manage the kind of precarity of 231 00:14:46,320 --> 00:14:50,080 Speaker 1: searching out jobs that they might be passionate about, or 232 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:53,800 Speaker 1: changing up what they're doing in their career to find 233 00:14:53,880 --> 00:14:56,200 Speaker 1: a brand new field where they don't have a whole 234 00:14:56,240 --> 00:14:59,120 Speaker 1: lot of experience and kind of retool having the social 235 00:14:59,200 --> 00:15:03,440 Speaker 1: networks to get those kinds of connections. Ultimately, the sense 236 00:15:03,520 --> 00:15:07,560 Speaker 1: that we tell people that they can do whatever they 237 00:15:07,640 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: like as long as they're passionate about it and work 238 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:14,040 Speaker 1: hard enough is precisely in line with the idea of 239 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:19,240 Speaker 1: the meritocratic ideology, which we know doesn't exactly describe the 240 00:15:19,280 --> 00:15:21,760 Speaker 1: way that the labor market is structured. You know, it's 241 00:15:21,800 --> 00:15:25,640 Speaker 1: funny because right now, you know, we keep seeing articles, right, 242 00:15:25,680 --> 00:15:27,640 Speaker 1: and I'm sure that you are paying attention to all 243 00:15:27,680 --> 00:15:30,960 Speaker 1: of them. There is a mass what do they call it? 244 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:32,880 Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal I think did an article and 245 00:15:32,920 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 1: they called it the mass resignation, right, that over eleven 246 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:41,280 Speaker 1: million people have left the workforce. And you know, we 247 00:15:41,360 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: keep talking about our listening in mainstream media and on 248 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:47,840 Speaker 1: cable news about there being a labor shortage, and my 249 00:15:47,960 --> 00:15:50,800 Speaker 1: response to that is that there isn't actually a labor shortage. 250 00:15:50,840 --> 00:15:54,000 Speaker 1: There's a shortage of good quality jobs. There's a shortage 251 00:15:54,040 --> 00:15:57,520 Speaker 1: of jobs that you know, allow for people to be 252 00:15:57,560 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 1: able to not only put food on their table, but 253 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:02,120 Speaker 1: by medicine at the same time, provide them with the 254 00:16:02,160 --> 00:16:06,600 Speaker 1: health benefits that they need, the childcare credits that they need, 255 00:16:06,640 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: and so on and so forth. And so why do 256 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: you think that, you know, aside from the things that 257 00:16:12,880 --> 00:16:16,680 Speaker 1: I listed, when you see those headlines about, you know, 258 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: the work industry right now and the fact that across 259 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:25,440 Speaker 1: industries there are thousands of people on strike right why 260 00:16:25,520 --> 00:16:27,360 Speaker 1: do you think that that is happening? And was it 261 00:16:27,400 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: a shock to you? It's not a shock to me. 262 00:16:30,960 --> 00:16:36,080 Speaker 1: And I think in part the quote unquote labor shortage 263 00:16:36,160 --> 00:16:40,760 Speaker 1: or the great resignation is in part due to all 264 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:45,200 Speaker 1: of a sudden there is a competition of employers for workers, 265 00:16:45,280 --> 00:16:48,920 Speaker 1: and so they're put in competition and having to elevate 266 00:16:49,280 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: things like pay and benefits in a way that they 267 00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,240 Speaker 1: weren't pressured to before. So part of it is structural, 268 00:16:54,480 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 1: but there's also this huge cultural part of it. So 269 00:16:57,720 --> 00:17:00,000 Speaker 1: what I talk about in the book is the way 270 00:17:00,200 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: that understanding our experiences with the labor market is not 271 00:17:05,040 --> 00:17:09,000 Speaker 1: just an economic consideration. It's also a moral one. It's 272 00:17:09,040 --> 00:17:12,720 Speaker 1: also an existential one. The labor force, regardless of where 273 00:17:12,760 --> 00:17:16,240 Speaker 1: we are in it is a site of meaning making 274 00:17:16,680 --> 00:17:19,520 Speaker 1: in our lives that can be fantastic or can be 275 00:17:19,640 --> 00:17:23,760 Speaker 1: drudgerous and full of dread. And so what happens with 276 00:17:23,800 --> 00:17:28,080 Speaker 1: the great resignation is for especially the college educated folks 277 00:17:28,080 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: that sort of have a potential ability to step back 278 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:35,040 Speaker 1: and say, what do I want from my work? What 279 00:17:35,119 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 1: does being a worker mean to me? These questions about 280 00:17:40,320 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: wanting to find meaning fulfillment and work come to be 281 00:17:43,720 --> 00:17:45,760 Speaker 1: front and center. And in fact, some of the research 282 00:17:45,800 --> 00:17:48,720 Speaker 1: I did that is beyond this Trouble with Passion book 283 00:17:48,760 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 1: with my graduate student Sophia Hiltner, we actually looked at 284 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: workers during a pandemic, so this is October twenty twenty, 285 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:03,880 Speaker 1: and we surveyed college educated workers and compared the commitments 286 00:18:04,040 --> 00:18:07,800 Speaker 1: to different labor market priorities of people who had kept 287 00:18:07,840 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 1: their jobs the same over the course of the pandemic 288 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,399 Speaker 1: and people who had lost a job or refurloughed. And 289 00:18:14,440 --> 00:18:16,479 Speaker 1: we found that people who had lost a job and 290 00:18:16,480 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 1: referlowed were more invested in seeking passion than people who 291 00:18:21,680 --> 00:18:24,600 Speaker 1: had kept a stable job. And that is in part 292 00:18:24,720 --> 00:18:31,280 Speaker 1: related to the kinds of existential instability insecurity that comes 293 00:18:31,320 --> 00:18:36,240 Speaker 1: with this context of a global pandemic, alongside the kind 294 00:18:36,280 --> 00:18:41,440 Speaker 1: of immediate experience of losing or potentially losing one's one 295 00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:44,800 Speaker 1: sense of economic stability. And so it's not just necessarily 296 00:18:44,800 --> 00:18:48,280 Speaker 1: people looking for the highest income or the most stability, 297 00:18:48,560 --> 00:18:51,760 Speaker 1: but rather how kind how can I align my work 298 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:54,680 Speaker 1: with who I want to be or what I want 299 00:18:55,640 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: so to look like it? Is it now? Right? And 300 00:19:00,800 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 1: is this? Are we privileged in this sense? Right? That 301 00:19:04,800 --> 00:19:07,560 Speaker 1: we are in a space where I mean, for me 302 00:19:07,760 --> 00:19:11,280 Speaker 1: and and i'll and I'll say this for me, the 303 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,119 Speaker 1: height of the pandemic provided an opportunity for me to 304 00:19:15,280 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: take a pause, right when when we were in quarantine 305 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,760 Speaker 1: and when you know, the world slowed down, it provided 306 00:19:22,760 --> 00:19:26,080 Speaker 1: an opportunity for me to have a pause and really 307 00:19:26,119 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: think about what is the kind of content that I'm 308 00:19:28,680 --> 00:19:30,760 Speaker 1: putting out into the world. How is it that I 309 00:19:30,800 --> 00:19:33,800 Speaker 1: want to be aligned with my work? Um? How is 310 00:19:33,800 --> 00:19:36,960 Speaker 1: it that I want to show up? And I found 311 00:19:37,000 --> 00:19:41,640 Speaker 1: I understood in that moment that that indeed was a privilege, right, 312 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:43,879 Speaker 1: It was a deep privilege to be able to do that. 313 00:19:43,920 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 1: I was not an essential worker, right, So I understand 314 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: it from that vantage point. But is it also you know, 315 00:19:52,000 --> 00:19:56,080 Speaker 1: are we looking for passion or are we looking for 316 00:19:56,160 --> 00:20:00,439 Speaker 1: alignment and is there a difference between those those two things? 317 00:20:01,160 --> 00:20:04,480 Speaker 1: Great question. So I would say we are looking for 318 00:20:05,840 --> 00:20:09,520 Speaker 1: alignment in our paid work in a way that's really risky. 319 00:20:10,040 --> 00:20:16,760 Speaker 1: So there's the risk of financial ruin potentially if someone 320 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:19,600 Speaker 1: follows their passion and don't doesn't have the privilege or 321 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:23,600 Speaker 1: of some form of savings or other things they can 322 00:20:23,640 --> 00:20:27,879 Speaker 1: rely upon. But it's also an existential risk in a 323 00:20:27,920 --> 00:20:30,480 Speaker 1: lot of ways to try and align our work with 324 00:20:30,520 --> 00:20:32,679 Speaker 1: our sense of self. And the reason I say that 325 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:37,000 Speaker 1: is because even if you're in a job that you 326 00:20:37,080 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: find deeply fulfilling and meaningful, it's very likely that the 327 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:44,320 Speaker 1: people that you're working for, the organization that you're working with, 328 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:48,439 Speaker 1: is benefiting far more from the passion based labor that 329 00:20:48,480 --> 00:20:51,439 Speaker 1: you are providing to them than you are getting paid for. 330 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:53,760 Speaker 1: One of the things I find in the book is 331 00:20:53,840 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: through an experiment, an experiment that employers really light job 332 00:21:00,760 --> 00:21:04,120 Speaker 1: applicants who express passion for their work, and it's not 333 00:21:04,200 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: just that they like them because they think that they'll 334 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,760 Speaker 1: be fun colleagues or you know, bring a good vibe 335 00:21:09,800 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 1: to the community, but that they'll be able to get 336 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: more labor out of them without an increase in pay. 337 00:21:16,760 --> 00:21:24,160 Speaker 1: So right, so there's a knowing exploitation of passion. And 338 00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:28,000 Speaker 1: so if we hand ourselves over hand our meaning making 339 00:21:28,119 --> 00:21:32,840 Speaker 1: over to the labor market, something that is so precarious 340 00:21:32,880 --> 00:21:36,920 Speaker 1: and unstable and certainly is not designed to support our 341 00:21:37,000 --> 00:21:40,560 Speaker 1: meaning making goals, that puts us at risk our deep 342 00:21:40,600 --> 00:21:44,480 Speaker 1: sense of self. And so it's so interesting because this 343 00:21:44,560 --> 00:21:49,080 Speaker 1: moment where people are taking stock of their work, the 344 00:21:49,200 --> 00:21:53,680 Speaker 1: content of their work exactly as you described, in this moment, 345 00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: if they find a misalignment in that, there's one solution 346 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,200 Speaker 1: that let me fire the work, let me find something 347 00:22:02,320 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 1: about work that I like more. Another thing is, let 348 00:22:05,080 --> 00:22:07,639 Speaker 1: me find meaning outside of work. Let me let me 349 00:22:07,800 --> 00:22:10,440 Speaker 1: shrink the space of work in my life and expand 350 00:22:10,520 --> 00:22:12,560 Speaker 1: the space of work outside of my life so I 351 00:22:12,600 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 1: can find that meaning fulfillment that's missing in my life 352 00:22:16,280 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: outside of my paid employment. You know, it's it's so 353 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:24,239 Speaker 1: interesting because it's like, do we work so much that 354 00:22:24,320 --> 00:22:26,720 Speaker 1: we have a lack of hobbies that we're looking for 355 00:22:26,800 --> 00:22:30,840 Speaker 1: everything to be in this one space and place right, Like, 356 00:22:31,240 --> 00:22:35,680 Speaker 1: you know, if you are putting in on average, forty 357 00:22:35,800 --> 00:22:39,400 Speaker 1: plus hours a week at a job, it's and then 358 00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,960 Speaker 1: you sleep and then you eat, and if you care 359 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: for kids or an elderly parent or what have you, 360 00:22:45,800 --> 00:22:49,400 Speaker 1: like that's your time, right Like, that's that's your life 361 00:22:49,440 --> 00:22:52,120 Speaker 1: in a nutshell. And so it's like are we putting 362 00:22:52,480 --> 00:22:57,160 Speaker 1: are we as workers placing too much value in what 363 00:22:57,240 --> 00:22:59,600 Speaker 1: it is that we're doing because we're looking forward to 364 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: fill all of the other avenues of our life that 365 00:23:03,359 --> 00:23:07,560 Speaker 1: we may have gaps. Yeah, absolutely, And I think it's 366 00:23:07,560 --> 00:23:12,320 Speaker 1: really tricky because the labor force is not set up 367 00:23:12,359 --> 00:23:15,200 Speaker 1: to help us get out of that trap either. So 368 00:23:16,359 --> 00:23:20,199 Speaker 1: the difficulty, So the reason that that that passion seeking 369 00:23:20,280 --> 00:23:23,919 Speaker 1: is so risky financially is because we don't have the 370 00:23:24,040 --> 00:23:29,119 Speaker 1: same social safety nets and protections as other post industrialized nations. 371 00:23:29,280 --> 00:23:31,840 Speaker 1: So if one says, you know what, I just want 372 00:23:31,840 --> 00:23:35,639 Speaker 1: to work part time so that I can invest in 373 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:39,000 Speaker 1: myself and invest in my own meaning making, there's very 374 00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,160 Speaker 1: little support for someone who is in that kind of position, 375 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,680 Speaker 1: or who might be in some kind of precarious work 376 00:23:45,760 --> 00:23:49,800 Speaker 1: and loses their job or is furloughed to some respect. 377 00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,639 Speaker 1: So the riskiness involved is part of the kind of 378 00:23:52,680 --> 00:23:56,320 Speaker 1: structure of the American labor force, but it's also tied 379 00:23:56,400 --> 00:24:00,439 Speaker 1: into culturally what we think of as as being a 380 00:24:00,480 --> 00:24:05,679 Speaker 1: good worker. So it is very unusual for somebody who says, 381 00:24:06,040 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: I'm going to come in and I'm going to do 382 00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 1: my work and I'm going to leave after him where 383 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: my forty hours are done. I'm gonna put my effort in, 384 00:24:11,800 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: but then I'm going to leave and not have a 385 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:18,240 Speaker 1: sense of personal dedication to that work to be coded 386 00:24:18,280 --> 00:24:21,600 Speaker 1: as a good worker. The idea of an ideal worker 387 00:24:21,680 --> 00:24:25,200 Speaker 1: in the United States is, and has been for over 388 00:24:25,280 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: half a century, the sense of you are devoted to 389 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:31,439 Speaker 1: the work that you do, and so breaking from that 390 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:36,439 Speaker 1: not only risks potential sanctions from one's employer, but people 391 00:24:36,640 --> 00:24:41,199 Speaker 1: thinking that one is not morally aligned with expectations of 392 00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:44,760 Speaker 1: being a worker, especially for professional workers. Why do we 393 00:24:44,840 --> 00:24:47,199 Speaker 1: think that this is the case? Now? What is it 394 00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:52,560 Speaker 1: about these younger generations that is shifting how we are 395 00:24:52,640 --> 00:24:56,320 Speaker 1: thinking and looking at work right like? What what? What 396 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: is what is it about our society right now and 397 00:25:00,280 --> 00:25:03,600 Speaker 1: the people that it is producing that we are that 398 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:06,919 Speaker 1: we are in this moment. So I think it's a 399 00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: confluence of two historical processes. One is a cultural process. 400 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:18,639 Speaker 1: One is related to the ex huge explosion of the 401 00:25:18,680 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 1: expectation for self expression and an identity formation sense about 402 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 1: the late nineteen eighties early nineteen nineties, right, everything that 403 00:25:27,520 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 1: we have in our lives we expect to be connected 404 00:25:30,960 --> 00:25:33,200 Speaker 1: to a sense of self expression. One of my favorite 405 00:25:33,200 --> 00:25:39,160 Speaker 1: favorite examples is the little the Firefox web browser has 406 00:25:39,160 --> 00:25:41,639 Speaker 1: at the very top of it. You can change the 407 00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,920 Speaker 1: skin on it to be something that aligns with something 408 00:25:44,960 --> 00:25:47,840 Speaker 1: that's self expressive to you, whether that's like a color 409 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: or a sports team, or you know, a particular form 410 00:25:51,880 --> 00:25:55,720 Speaker 1: of architecture or something. So there's this giant expectation, this 411 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:59,240 Speaker 1: ubiquitous expectation that everything in our life we should be 412 00:25:59,359 --> 00:26:02,439 Speaker 1: able to do self expressively, and so our work is 413 00:26:02,520 --> 00:26:06,120 Speaker 1: certainly no exception to that. But then alongside of that 414 00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:11,000 Speaker 1: is this huge shift in precarity in a labor market 415 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:15,040 Speaker 1: since the nineteen seventies, So even for those who have 416 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:18,040 Speaker 1: a college degree, the expectation that you can get a 417 00:26:18,119 --> 00:26:21,960 Speaker 1: job in a company and that company will sort of 418 00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,040 Speaker 1: take care of you as long as you do your 419 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,160 Speaker 1: work and put your time in just doesn't exist anymore. 420 00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:31,800 Speaker 1: And so one solution to that kind of procurity might 421 00:26:31,840 --> 00:26:36,520 Speaker 1: have been a big growth, a big swell in collective 422 00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:41,159 Speaker 1: action of pushing back on expectations for overwork, pushing back 423 00:26:41,240 --> 00:26:44,359 Speaker 1: on the kind of precarity that exists in a labor force. 424 00:26:44,720 --> 00:26:47,320 Speaker 1: But what has happened instead, the kind of general reaction, 425 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,080 Speaker 1: in part because of the lack of structural support for 426 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:55,760 Speaker 1: kind of collective solutions, is people saying, well, if I 427 00:26:55,800 --> 00:27:00,760 Speaker 1: need to work sixty seventy eight hours a week, and 428 00:26:59,720 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 1: I and that's my path as a college educated worker, 429 00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,879 Speaker 1: I might as well do something that I like, I 430 00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:09,879 Speaker 1: might as well have it align with my sense of self. 431 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,560 Speaker 1: And so part of it is the lack of other 432 00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: alternatives for individual workers to seem to see ways out 433 00:27:19,240 --> 00:27:25,240 Speaker 1: of the issue of precurity and overwork. You know, is 434 00:27:25,359 --> 00:27:28,760 Speaker 1: there a way too? Like how how does this? How 435 00:27:28,760 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: does this connect to our understanding of burnout? And also 436 00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:36,160 Speaker 1: it's burnout a privileged term as well. Like again, like 437 00:27:36,200 --> 00:27:39,679 Speaker 1: I asked these questions because I realized that, you know, 438 00:27:40,520 --> 00:27:44,919 Speaker 1: I have only ever work, only ever had white collar 439 00:27:44,960 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: work experiences, right, like outside of being a teenager and 440 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:52,040 Speaker 1: working in a grocery store when I was a teenager, 441 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: and that was really for fun, right, that was not 442 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:56,199 Speaker 1: to put food on the table. It was to like 443 00:27:56,359 --> 00:27:59,679 Speaker 1: buy what my parents wouldn't buy me right, um, and 444 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,199 Speaker 1: and wasn't like you were forced to work. It was 445 00:28:02,240 --> 00:28:04,439 Speaker 1: just like I wanted to because I want this extra 446 00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:09,919 Speaker 1: thing outside of that. My entire career is in white 447 00:28:09,960 --> 00:28:14,639 Speaker 1: collar type of work. Is burnout? Right? And this word 448 00:28:14,680 --> 00:28:17,000 Speaker 1: that we use we see everywhere, we see memed, we 449 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,359 Speaker 1: see quoted, we see self care. Now you know as 450 00:28:20,440 --> 00:28:26,040 Speaker 1: as as prevalent as ever. Is that also one privilege? 451 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:29,639 Speaker 1: And then two? Is there a way to set up 452 00:28:29,680 --> 00:28:33,080 Speaker 1: your life where you don't have burnout? Or is burnout 453 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,200 Speaker 1: just a product of having to work? Right? And and 454 00:28:37,440 --> 00:28:39,719 Speaker 1: that like when you have to work and you have 455 00:28:39,800 --> 00:28:42,920 Speaker 1: to work a lot because you're adulting, and as much 456 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:45,440 Speaker 1: as you know, we may not like it, like that's 457 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:48,960 Speaker 1: part of life. It is burnout just a part of life? 458 00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,160 Speaker 1: Or is that the way in which we have been 459 00:28:51,800 --> 00:28:56,680 Speaker 1: socialized to understand work. That's a really great question. So 460 00:28:57,200 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: my sense is that burnout is a way is a 461 00:29:01,240 --> 00:29:06,000 Speaker 1: language that's been utilized to try and claw back some 462 00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:09,520 Speaker 1: pushback on the expectations of the labor market. But it 463 00:29:09,600 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 1: is a privileged term. Any time workers have the opportunity 464 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:20,040 Speaker 1: to think about adjusting the quality of their work, their 465 00:29:20,040 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 1: work circumstances the environment in which they work to find 466 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:27,640 Speaker 1: a better option for them. That in itself is a 467 00:29:27,680 --> 00:29:30,600 Speaker 1: privilege and usually something that's that's only reserved for those 468 00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,480 Speaker 1: with the college degree. Because of the kind of precarity 469 00:29:33,520 --> 00:29:37,200 Speaker 1: and the bifurcation of good jobs and bad jobs. In 470 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,600 Speaker 1: the United States, people with out of college degree, those 471 00:29:40,640 --> 00:29:44,080 Speaker 1: in the service sector blue collar work increasingly have more 472 00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:49,760 Speaker 1: precarious hours, less advantageous kind of work, more deskilled kind 473 00:29:49,800 --> 00:29:53,800 Speaker 1: of work, where even thinking about does this give me 474 00:29:53,880 --> 00:29:56,160 Speaker 1: burnout or not? Or is this something that aligns with 475 00:29:56,200 --> 00:30:00,440 Speaker 1: their passion or not is really outside of the realm 476 00:30:00,520 --> 00:30:03,560 Speaker 1: of what is often available to them structurally because of 477 00:30:03,600 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: how work is organized in the United States, and so 478 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,280 Speaker 1: with burnout is aligned the idea of passion seeking. It's 479 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:15,440 Speaker 1: sort of the contrast of one another. People often want 480 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,000 Speaker 1: to seek out their passion if they feel burnt out, 481 00:30:18,280 --> 00:30:22,479 Speaker 1: but burnout is attached to a sense of overwork in 482 00:30:22,520 --> 00:30:25,360 Speaker 1: a lot of ways. So one can seek passion because 483 00:30:25,360 --> 00:30:27,920 Speaker 1: they feel burnt out. One can seek passion because they 484 00:30:27,960 --> 00:30:30,120 Speaker 1: don't feel connected to the work that they do, but 485 00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:32,480 Speaker 1: burnout is often attached to the sense of I am 486 00:30:32,560 --> 00:30:36,760 Speaker 1: working more than I want to and it is bleeding 487 00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 1: over into other areas of my life, and that that 488 00:30:43,520 --> 00:30:48,400 Speaker 1: sentiment of work affecting our non work lives is something 489 00:30:48,440 --> 00:30:52,480 Speaker 1: that all work will have an impact on. It's sort 490 00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:56,640 Speaker 1: of that's the characteristic of labor, of giving our labor 491 00:30:56,680 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 1: over to somebody else in a capitalist economy, but the 492 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:08,360 Speaker 1: expectations that the labor force has of us are extreme 493 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:10,640 Speaker 1: in many ways. That leads the kind of burnout. So 494 00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 1: we can think about burnout on an individual level, what 495 00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,200 Speaker 1: we can think about the kinds of structural practices and 496 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:21,479 Speaker 1: processes that lead to this overwhelming amount of burnout that 497 00:31:21,520 --> 00:31:23,640 Speaker 1: I think we've seen grow over the last couple of 498 00:31:23,680 --> 00:31:28,080 Speaker 1: decades is a burnout unique to America because of the 499 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 1: way in which we overwork, the way in which we 500 00:31:32,040 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: have the least vacation time of any other industrialized nation. 501 00:31:37,920 --> 00:31:41,000 Speaker 1: You know the joke every summer always comes around where 502 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:43,360 Speaker 1: you know, if you send a if you send an 503 00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:47,080 Speaker 1: email to somebody in Europe between like July and September, 504 00:31:47,160 --> 00:31:50,360 Speaker 1: it's like I'm off for the next six weeks, you know, 505 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: wish you will like. And in the United States, US 506 00:31:54,400 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 1: even taking the two weeks standard vacation time and taking 507 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:01,960 Speaker 1: that as a block is seen as crazy. So I'm like, 508 00:32:02,240 --> 00:32:07,719 Speaker 1: is burnout something that is unique to America because of 509 00:32:07,800 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 1: how we're because of our culture and how we're socialized. 510 00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,800 Speaker 1: I don't think it's certainly not unique in terms of 511 00:32:14,840 --> 00:32:17,760 Speaker 1: the experience of right, there's many other countries where that, 512 00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: you know that happens. But I think it's unique in 513 00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:26,560 Speaker 1: the extent that particularly professional workers experience burnout because of 514 00:32:26,600 --> 00:32:32,480 Speaker 1: these intensive hours, compared to European nations, for example. But 515 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,320 Speaker 1: I think it's also unique in the utilization of burnout 516 00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,520 Speaker 1: as a concept to interpret people's experiences. And I think 517 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: in other places the same experience of the characteristics that 518 00:32:46,440 --> 00:32:49,880 Speaker 1: feeling burnt out may be more likely to be identified 519 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:54,920 Speaker 1: as exploitation, something that is structural, something that is not 520 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,440 Speaker 1: at the individual level. But in the United States, because 521 00:32:58,480 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: of neuroliberal norms about us being responsible for our own 522 00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:05,120 Speaker 1: lives and our own work, there's more likely that we 523 00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: interpret the experiences of our workplace as something that is 524 00:33:11,280 --> 00:33:13,640 Speaker 1: that is connected to us and call it burnout rather 525 00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:18,840 Speaker 1: than exploitation. So what is what should we be thinking 526 00:33:18,840 --> 00:33:21,959 Speaker 1: about when we think about work eron? Like, you know, 527 00:33:22,640 --> 00:33:28,160 Speaker 1: I know that for myself, I left traditional firms. I 528 00:33:28,360 --> 00:33:31,719 Speaker 1: you know, came from a policy background, a political background, 529 00:33:32,200 --> 00:33:35,920 Speaker 1: you know, left traditional nonprofits, left firm life in order 530 00:33:35,960 --> 00:33:38,720 Speaker 1: to work for myself. Why did I make that decision? 531 00:33:38,800 --> 00:33:41,479 Speaker 1: Because I wanted to own my own hours, and I 532 00:33:41,520 --> 00:33:44,560 Speaker 1: wanted to decide who and when and how I wanted 533 00:33:44,600 --> 00:33:48,520 Speaker 1: to work right And I understood that to be the 534 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: privilege of the experience that I've had, the degrees that 535 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,040 Speaker 1: I've had, and the ability to build a brand in 536 00:33:55,080 --> 00:33:58,040 Speaker 1: a certain way that has allowed me to, you know, 537 00:33:58,080 --> 00:34:03,520 Speaker 1: so far, continue to be success full. But how is 538 00:34:03,560 --> 00:34:06,960 Speaker 1: it everybody can't be an entrepreneur, nor does everybody want 539 00:34:07,000 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 1: to be an entrepreneur, right, because that is a different 540 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:12,120 Speaker 1: type of hustle and a whole different type of burnout, 541 00:34:12,239 --> 00:34:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, to be honest, But how should we be 542 00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 1: looking at work? How should we be looking at work's 543 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,600 Speaker 1: role in our life? Is it just that, you know, look, 544 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:25,000 Speaker 1: it's a means to an end, which I've heard a 545 00:34:25,120 --> 00:34:27,239 Speaker 1: number of my friends start to say now where I 546 00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,880 Speaker 1: never heard them say those things before, But again this time, 547 00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,600 Speaker 1: in this very you know, black mirror world that we're 548 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:37,680 Speaker 1: living in is having us think in different ways. So 549 00:34:37,840 --> 00:34:39,879 Speaker 1: is it a means to an end is that our 550 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,239 Speaker 1: passion project. Do we need more hobbies so that we 551 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:46,520 Speaker 1: create more of a balance. How should we be how 552 00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:50,280 Speaker 1: should our relationship with work be growing, and how should 553 00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: we be engaging moving forward? Sure, there are individual solutions, 554 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,320 Speaker 1: and I think there's collective solutions. So at the individual level, 555 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,000 Speaker 1: I think we need to see what ways we can 556 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,480 Speaker 1: shrink the footprint of work on our lives, regardless of 557 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:09,480 Speaker 1: if we're passionate about our work or not, just to 558 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:14,080 Speaker 1: allow ourselves to reclaim as much time as we can 559 00:35:14,280 --> 00:35:19,839 Speaker 1: outside of our paid employment with the intense pressures of overwork. 560 00:35:20,800 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: And for everyone, regardless of if they're in their passion 561 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:27,480 Speaker 1: or not, but especially people who are following their passion 562 00:35:27,560 --> 00:35:30,280 Speaker 1: or in their passion. As I talk about in the book, 563 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:34,880 Speaker 1: we should diversify our meaning making portfolios. By that, I 564 00:35:34,960 --> 00:35:41,120 Speaker 1: mean finding places outside of work to anchor our identity 565 00:35:41,239 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: and our sense of self, to protect that sense of 566 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:48,959 Speaker 1: self from the vagaries of the instability of the labor market. 567 00:35:49,040 --> 00:35:51,439 Speaker 1: And that's hard. If you work a lot. That's hard. 568 00:35:51,480 --> 00:35:57,640 Speaker 1: It's work to find space for that other meaning making 569 00:35:57,680 --> 00:36:00,800 Speaker 1: in our lives. It takes practice, it takes scheduling. We 570 00:36:01,600 --> 00:36:04,279 Speaker 1: have to think about it and do it very explicitly, 571 00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,520 Speaker 1: but then at more general at the kind of collective level, 572 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:12,080 Speaker 1: I think we have to really question how we talk 573 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,480 Speaker 1: to young adults about career decision making. So I was 574 00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,240 Speaker 1: a passion principle evangelist I told students for this research, 575 00:36:19,320 --> 00:36:22,520 Speaker 1: so like, oh, you're passion figure out the job stuff later, 576 00:36:22,880 --> 00:36:26,440 Speaker 1: And that's not the way that we should be approaching 577 00:36:26,520 --> 00:36:28,920 Speaker 1: career decision making. I think we have a much more 578 00:36:28,960 --> 00:36:33,359 Speaker 1: holistic way of talking to young adults about the role 579 00:36:33,400 --> 00:36:35,560 Speaker 1: of work in their lives, the kinds of goals that 580 00:36:35,640 --> 00:36:37,479 Speaker 1: they have, and if they say I want to spend 581 00:36:37,520 --> 00:36:39,600 Speaker 1: a lot of time with my family and I don't 582 00:36:39,600 --> 00:36:41,839 Speaker 1: want to be working a whole lot, how can we 583 00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:47,040 Speaker 1: help them think about engaging in work that furthers those goals. 584 00:36:47,080 --> 00:36:49,040 Speaker 1: And then we also want to think about the way 585 00:36:49,040 --> 00:36:55,080 Speaker 1: that we're communicating expectations to blue collar and service workers, 586 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,240 Speaker 1: people who are in jobs that may have very little 587 00:36:59,320 --> 00:37:02,279 Speaker 1: option for the expression of passion. I think there's a 588 00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: sentiment where there's more more and more of an expectation 589 00:37:05,680 --> 00:37:09,680 Speaker 1: of the performance of being passionate about one's job. For 590 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 1: baristas and hotel clerks and things. If you go and 591 00:37:14,040 --> 00:37:18,640 Speaker 1: you look at sort of plaquards for coffee shops and things, 592 00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:21,399 Speaker 1: they will often use the language of passion. And it's 593 00:37:21,440 --> 00:37:25,560 Speaker 1: an additional burden we place onto service workers if we 594 00:37:25,640 --> 00:37:29,319 Speaker 1: expect them to perform making a coffee for us as 595 00:37:29,400 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: though it was their passion, as well as being nice 596 00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:35,719 Speaker 1: and kind to us and performing the emotional labor that's 597 00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,000 Speaker 1: always been there. And then beyond that, we need to 598 00:37:39,040 --> 00:37:43,400 Speaker 1: really champion the kinds of legislation and kinds of changes 599 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: in our own workplaces that help reduce things like overwork, 600 00:37:48,200 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: that allow for more work life balance and give access 601 00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:57,360 Speaker 1: to a wider array of people to benefits and social 602 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:01,640 Speaker 1: safety nets, and things that can engagement in the labor 603 00:38:01,680 --> 00:38:06,759 Speaker 1: force less risky, less precurious in general. I have one 604 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,960 Speaker 1: one more question for you too, that came up as 605 00:38:10,000 --> 00:38:14,600 Speaker 1: you were answering the last question, which is, so should 606 00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:19,000 Speaker 1: we then be if I am a high school guidance 607 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:24,360 Speaker 1: counselor right and A and and you know my students 608 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:27,960 Speaker 1: are coming in and they're should I be tapping into 609 00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:32,640 Speaker 1: how they want to feel as opposed to what they 610 00:38:32,680 --> 00:38:36,319 Speaker 1: want to do? Because what I'm hearing from you and 611 00:38:36,360 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: what I what I think that the message of your 612 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:42,120 Speaker 1: book is is that it isn't just about the doing 613 00:38:42,239 --> 00:38:45,239 Speaker 1: of the thing or the being passionate about the doing 614 00:38:45,239 --> 00:38:47,560 Speaker 1: of the thing. It's about how do I want to 615 00:38:47,640 --> 00:38:51,160 Speaker 1: feel in my life? Right? Like it? Am? I? Right? 616 00:38:51,200 --> 00:38:56,000 Speaker 1: Should we be? Is it more about us tapping into 617 00:38:56,080 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: that which is very different than how we work in 618 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,280 Speaker 1: this country, and I think how we work in general. 619 00:39:02,520 --> 00:39:04,319 Speaker 1: You know, the joke was always work as a four 620 00:39:04,400 --> 00:39:07,279 Speaker 1: letter word, like all of these kinds of things, you know, 621 00:39:07,440 --> 00:39:10,320 Speaker 1: should we be tapping into the feeling and then building 622 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,919 Speaker 1: our work around that. I think it's a two part. 623 00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:18,879 Speaker 1: One is more pragmatic. One is trying to see how 624 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:21,720 Speaker 1: we can encourage them to have a wide variety of skills. 625 00:39:21,760 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: So if someone is really interested in anthropology, have them 626 00:39:25,600 --> 00:39:28,920 Speaker 1: get a computer science minor, for example, something that can 627 00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:33,280 Speaker 1: actually be give them more options on the labor market 628 00:39:33,360 --> 00:39:37,800 Speaker 1: to help the reduce the potential for procurity. But also 629 00:39:37,840 --> 00:39:41,000 Speaker 1: aligned with that sense of feeling, asking essentially what kind 630 00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:42,600 Speaker 1: of human do they want to be in the world, 631 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:47,360 Speaker 1: and allowing that to be one of the guiding principles 632 00:39:47,360 --> 00:39:51,040 Speaker 1: they take into account, and really making sure that we 633 00:39:51,080 --> 00:39:56,680 Speaker 1: are not moralizing passion as the most valuable way to 634 00:39:56,760 --> 00:40:00,000 Speaker 1: think about career decision making. When I interviewed career counsel 635 00:40:00,160 --> 00:40:02,640 Speaker 1: and coaches for the book, I was really struck by 636 00:40:02,920 --> 00:40:06,040 Speaker 1: how many of them were willing to tell the people 637 00:40:06,080 --> 00:40:10,640 Speaker 1: that they advise students and workers not to worry about money, 638 00:40:10,680 --> 00:40:13,200 Speaker 1: that they shouldn't care so much about money, that they 639 00:40:13,239 --> 00:40:16,200 Speaker 1: really should find work that aligns with their sense of 640 00:40:16,239 --> 00:40:18,399 Speaker 1: self and their sense of identity. And this is These 641 00:40:18,400 --> 00:40:23,880 Speaker 1: are the professions that are given permission to give us advice, 642 00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,399 Speaker 1: that we trust to give us advice, and if even 643 00:40:26,480 --> 00:40:30,080 Speaker 1: they are not able to move outside of the trap 644 00:40:30,160 --> 00:40:35,239 Speaker 1: of passion, I think it's more and more important that 645 00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:40,000 Speaker 1: we think about how to do that, folks. The book 646 00:40:40,239 --> 00:40:45,200 Speaker 1: is how the book is, I'm sorry, The Trouble with Passion, 647 00:40:45,560 --> 00:40:50,560 Speaker 1: How searching for fulfillment at work fosters inequality by sociologists 648 00:40:50,560 --> 00:40:53,399 Speaker 1: Aaron Sik Aaron, thank you so much. This was such 649 00:40:53,440 --> 00:40:56,759 Speaker 1: an illuminating conversation and one that I think that we 650 00:40:56,880 --> 00:41:00,800 Speaker 1: all are finding ourselves having right in you know, at 651 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:04,640 Speaker 1: our at our brunches, at our offices, you know, on zooms, 652 00:41:04,719 --> 00:41:07,520 Speaker 1: in the private chats and all of these spaces to 653 00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:09,520 Speaker 1: figure out what it is that we're all doing so 654 00:41:09,680 --> 00:41:12,360 Speaker 1: your book is more timely than ever. Thank you so 655 00:41:12,440 --> 00:41:15,080 Speaker 1: much for making the time to join Woke. F thank you. 656 00:41:21,920 --> 00:41:24,760 Speaker 1: That is it for me today. Folks on woke app 657 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:29,080 Speaker 1: as always, Power to the people and to all the people. Power, 658 00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,560 Speaker 1: get woke and stay woke as fuck.