WEBVTT - Ice cream fight: Can companies have a social conscience in 2026? 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.440 Welcome to Zero. I am Aksha Drati. This week the 0:00:04.519 --> 0:00:21.759 ice cream wars. Ice Cream is my guilty pleasure, and 0:00:21.800 --> 0:00:24.200 I'm glad to report that today I get to talk 0:00:24.239 --> 0:00:28.320 about it on this climate podcast because there's currently an 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:31.640 ice cream war that's raging and it involves Ben Cohen, 0:00:31.920 --> 0:00:34.960 the co founder of the ice cream brand Ben and Jerry's. 0:00:35.240 --> 0:00:39.640 Put simply, the very values led business structure that's made 0:00:39.720 --> 0:00:43.960 Ben and Jerry's into the brand it is today is 0:00:44.080 --> 0:00:47.520 precisely the thing that Magnum is in the process of destroying. 0:00:48.240 --> 0:00:50.960 The best introduction to Ben and Jerry's is their ice 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:56.360 cream flavors Cherry, Garcia, fish food, cookie dough, half baked, 0:00:56.520 --> 0:01:00.520 and the list goes on for this episode, though the 0:01:00.560 --> 0:01:04.480 history of Benanjerry's is probably more relevant. The company was 0:01:04.520 --> 0:01:07.200 founded in nineteen seventy eight by Ben Cohen and Jerry 0:01:07.240 --> 0:01:10.400 Grainfield in the U S state of Vermont and quickly 0:01:10.640 --> 0:01:13.559 grew to be a nationwide brand known for its chunky 0:01:13.600 --> 0:01:18.920 ice cream and support for social causes refugees, LGBTQ, communities, 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:24.400 and climate justice. Just a decade after the business was founded, 0:01:24.560 --> 0:01:28.319 Cohen and Greenfield were named U S Small Business Persons 0:01:28.319 --> 0:01:31.400 of the Year by President Ronald Reagan at a ceremony 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:35.520 at the White House. Now fast forward to two thousand, 0:01:35.840 --> 0:01:39.360 the company gets bought by the global food giant Unilever, 0:01:39.880 --> 0:01:43.760 with a promise that Beningerry's can continue its social mission. 0:01:44.959 --> 0:01:48.480 As you'll hear in the interview, Unilever did support that 0:01:48.560 --> 0:01:53.680 social mission until twenty twenty one. That's when Benanjerry's decided 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.640 to halt its distribution in the West Bank as an 0:01:56.680 --> 0:02:00.640 act of solidarity for the people of Palestine. An Unilever 0:02:01.040 --> 0:02:05.760 took steps that angered the founders Ben and Jerry. Before 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:08.560 those issues could be resolved, in July twenty twenty five, 0:02:09.040 --> 0:02:13.320 Unilever spun its entire ice cream division out into the 0:02:13.360 --> 0:02:16.760 Magnum ice Cream Company, with Ben and Jerry's as one 0:02:16.840 --> 0:02:21.720 of its leading brands. The way Unilever acted since twenty 0:02:21.760 --> 0:02:24.799 twenty one has caused Ben and Jerry a lot of grief. 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:28.360 Jerry quit the company last year, and Ben went on 0:02:28.440 --> 0:02:31.560 to start a campaign to spin out Ben and Jerry's 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:36.040 as an independent company. Magnum says Ben and Jerry's is 0:02:36.080 --> 0:02:39.080 not for sale and that the brand is thriving under 0:02:39.120 --> 0:02:43.200 its ownership. Ben disagrees, so I sat down with Ben 0:02:43.240 --> 0:02:46.680 Cohen at the recent south By Southwest Festival in London 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:50.680 to ask about the Free Benanjerry's campaign, why he thinks 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.440 it is important for businesses to pursue social causes, and 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:57.400 what the future of ice cream is on a warming planet. 0:02:58.240 --> 0:03:00.720 Listen to the end for a full response to Ben's 0:03:00.720 --> 0:03:04.119 comments from Ben and Jerry's, the brand, and from its 0:03:04.160 --> 0:03:07.800 owner Magnum. Also, if you'd like to watch a video 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:10.440 version of this episode, you can do that on YouTube. 0:03:10.720 --> 0:03:19.519 We've put a link in the show notes. Ben, Welcome 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:19.960 to zero. 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:22.799 Hi, good to be here at zero. So over the. 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:26.040 Years, Ben and Jerry's has stood for a number of 0:03:26.160 --> 0:03:31.120 progressive causes, including acting on climate change. And this is 0:03:31.160 --> 0:03:34.519 a climate podcast, so we will touch on climate issues. 0:03:34.880 --> 0:03:38.080 But let's just start with why you've got a company 0:03:38.520 --> 0:03:43.040 involved in social causes in the first place. Because most 0:03:43.040 --> 0:03:46.040 people will say that the role of a company, what 0:03:46.080 --> 0:03:49.720 it's set up for, is to provide returns to shareholders, 0:03:49.880 --> 0:03:51.600 not to work on social stuff. 0:03:51.960 --> 0:03:54.600 What we discovered is that it's possible to do both. 0:03:56.080 --> 0:04:01.120 This idea that companies can't be responsible, can't care about 0:04:01.120 --> 0:04:07.240 the community, can't work to repair problems economic. 0:04:06.880 --> 0:04:10.600 Or social justice or the environment. It's just false. 0:04:11.480 --> 0:04:16.440 Businesses are incredibly powerful. They're the most powerful force in 0:04:16.480 --> 0:04:19.279 our society. And if business isn't going to be paying 0:04:19.320 --> 0:04:22.760 attention to the problems, they are never going to get solved. 0:04:23.400 --> 0:04:27.160 Ben and Jerry's was created in Burlington, Vermont in nineteen 0:04:27.200 --> 0:04:31.440 seventy eight, and since the nineteen eighties you're really known 0:04:31.640 --> 0:04:33.480 for not just the ice cream, but all the social 0:04:33.480 --> 0:04:37.000 causes that you've supported over the years. Until two thousand, 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:41.320 Ben and Jerry's was very much run by you and Jerry, 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:45.520 but then it was bought by Unilever. Now, at the 0:04:45.640 --> 0:04:48.080 time Ben and Jerry's was a public company. 0:04:48.240 --> 0:04:49.480 Then uni Lever was. 0:04:49.440 --> 0:04:52.880 Trying to take over. You and Jerry did not have 0:04:52.920 --> 0:04:56.039 a controlling stake, so you couldn't stop the takeover from happening. 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.400 It sort of happened against your wishes, is what you've said. 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:00.000 That's correct. 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:03.080 It happened because Ben and Jerry's was a public company. 0:05:03.120 --> 0:05:05.760 Do you regret taking Ben and Jerry's public in the 0:05:05.760 --> 0:05:06.680 first place. 0:05:08.360 --> 0:05:13.160 You know, I guess considering what happened, yeah, I do 0:05:13.279 --> 0:05:17.960 regret that we thought that we had legal controls in 0:05:18.000 --> 0:05:21.200 place that would have prevented that from happening, but apparently 0:05:21.200 --> 0:05:25.960 we didn't. I think there's there's other mechanisms that now exist, 0:05:27.040 --> 0:05:33.240 like B corporations and steward ownership models that would have 0:05:33.320 --> 0:05:36.600 prevented what happened, But yeah, I do regret. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:41.719 So despite selling the company to Unilever, at least until recently, 0:05:42.600 --> 0:05:46.360 Ben and Jerry's continued to push its social mission. And 0:05:46.400 --> 0:05:50.200 that was because of this unique place in which Ben 0:05:50.240 --> 0:05:54.680 and Jerry's ended up inside a giant corporation, but with 0:05:54.800 --> 0:05:59.360 this independent board of directors that you say has legal 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:05.160 authority over the company's social mission in perpetuity. How exactly 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:10.560 did you convince Unilever, a giant corporation to create the 0:06:10.560 --> 0:06:14.320 structure because you know, like I cover companies for my job, 0:06:14.560 --> 0:06:17.320 and I really cannot think of a company that would 0:06:18.080 --> 0:06:21.760 look at this structure and be okay with the liabilities 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:24.520 that would come with it. How did you pull it off? 0:06:24.920 --> 0:06:29.279 Well, what happened was that Unilever and Neslei were the 0:06:29.360 --> 0:06:33.440 two global ice cream players. They were arch competitors, and 0:06:34.320 --> 0:06:38.360 Nesley bought Hagendas, so they had a super premium ice 0:06:38.440 --> 0:06:43.720 cream and Unilever didn't, So they really wanted to have one, 0:06:43.880 --> 0:06:48.040 and Ben and Jerry's was one, and so they wanted 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:52.240 to acquire it. As you said, Jerry and I were 0:06:52.360 --> 0:06:56.599 very resistant to that, and we were resistant. 0:06:56.080 --> 0:06:58.600 Because we thought. 0:06:58.400 --> 0:07:01.880 That the values would you know, would disappear, that the 0:07:01.920 --> 0:07:07.560 social mission would you know, would essentially evaporate. And so 0:07:08.040 --> 0:07:14.840 Unilever kind of understood that and UH said, well, we 0:07:14.880 --> 0:07:18.559 can write the social mission into the contract, into the 0:07:18.600 --> 0:07:22.760 purchase and sales agreement. And when we tried to do that, 0:07:22.920 --> 0:07:27.640 we realized that you couldn't do that because the social 0:07:27.680 --> 0:07:30.600 mission needed to evolve and change. 0:07:30.320 --> 0:07:31.160 With the times. 0:07:32.080 --> 0:07:36.720 And so what was set up is that the structure 0:07:36.800 --> 0:07:42.800 that was purchased became a wholly owned independent subsidiary. 0:07:43.040 --> 0:07:44.800 So the way it was explained to. 0:07:44.800 --> 0:07:48.840 Me is that well before we had thousands of shareholders 0:07:49.560 --> 0:07:53.280 and now it would be just the same, except we'd 0:07:53.280 --> 0:07:58.560 only have one shareholder. But our concern was that Unilever 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.800 didn't have the same social so if the owner doesn't, 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:04.360 then you know, we figured it would go away and 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:07.880 we couldn't write it in. And the solution was to 0:08:08.880 --> 0:08:14.320 form this independent board of directors for the holy owned 0:08:14.320 --> 0:08:19.920 subsidiary inside Unilever that has legal authority for the social 0:08:20.000 --> 0:08:22.960 mission and the quality of the ice cream, the use 0:08:23.000 --> 0:08:25.000 of the trademark and a few other things. 0:08:25.120 --> 0:08:27.200 But you did not have much of an ownership stake 0:08:27.240 --> 0:08:29.680 at the time. So what was your leverage to make 0:08:29.920 --> 0:08:33.000 Unilever to create the structure at all. 0:08:33.600 --> 0:08:37.000 Well, there were when you have a public company and 0:08:37.120 --> 0:08:40.360 another company makes an offer to buy it, then the 0:08:40.400 --> 0:08:44.920 company becomes what they call in play, and other companies 0:08:45.000 --> 0:08:48.600 can then make offers to buy it. And there were 0:08:48.800 --> 0:08:53.600 other companies making offers, and Unilever wanted to make the 0:08:53.640 --> 0:08:54.640 best want. 0:08:55.000 --> 0:08:56.520 So I think that's. 0:08:56.320 --> 0:08:59.120 Why they came up with this, why they agreed to 0:08:59.200 --> 0:09:00.640 this independence and board. 0:09:00.880 --> 0:09:04.960 So beyond the social mission in a way, resistance to 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:08.200 large corporation is also something that has been part of 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:12.280 Ben and Jerry's work. So talk me through the very 0:09:12.400 --> 0:09:16.960 first resistance campaign that you and Jerry ran against Pillsbury. 0:09:17.920 --> 0:09:20.640 What's the dough boy afraid of? What was that about? 0:09:21.080 --> 0:09:21.440 Sure? 0:09:22.760 --> 0:09:26.400 So, you know, in the early days, Ben and Jurry's 0:09:26.520 --> 0:09:30.160 was just starting to sell its ice cream over state 0:09:30.280 --> 0:09:34.520 lines beyond Vermont, right beyond Vermont, and so we sold 0:09:34.600 --> 0:09:38.760 into New Hampshire and Maine, and then we went into 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:42.400 our first major market, which was Boston. When we went 0:09:42.440 --> 0:09:47.600 into Boston, what happened was that Pillsbury had purchased hoggand 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:52.600 Us and both brands, hagened Us and Ben and Jury's 0:09:52.640 --> 0:09:56.640 were being distributed by the same distributors. They distributed about 0:09:56.679 --> 0:09:59.800 twenty different brands of ice cream. And the Pillsbury guys 0:09:59.840 --> 0:10:02.360 ca to our distributors and said, if you continue to 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:04.640 sell Ben and Jerry's, we're not going to sell Yahagan 0:10:04.679 --> 0:10:09.199 Dos anymore. So, you know, and the distributors came to us, 0:10:09.280 --> 0:10:13.079 they said, hey, Ben Jerry, we really like you guys. 0:10:13.120 --> 0:10:15.839 It's really good ice cream. But you know, Haggen Dost 0:10:15.880 --> 0:10:18.280 has been around a long time. It's the biggest selling 0:10:18.320 --> 0:10:21.400 thing we have on our trucks. And I said, we 0:10:21.520 --> 0:10:23.280 can't have both, and so we're going. 0:10:23.240 --> 0:10:25.920 To have to drop your ice cream. 0:10:25.920 --> 0:10:29.440 And you know the problem was that we had just 0:10:29.640 --> 0:10:33.040 had an in state Vermont public stock offering, so we 0:10:33.120 --> 0:10:37.000 had sold shares in our company to our neighbors. One 0:10:37.040 --> 0:10:40.080 out of every hundred Vermont families had become an owner. 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:40.480 Wow. 0:10:40.720 --> 0:10:45.280 So here was this existential threat to the company because 0:10:46.160 --> 0:10:49.160 if we couldn't sell to a distributor who was already 0:10:49.160 --> 0:10:52.240 carrying hogen dust. We really couldn't sell to any decent 0:10:52.280 --> 0:10:56.319 distributors all around the country because they were all carrying Hagendus. 0:10:57.000 --> 0:10:59.720 You know, we've realized that, you know, it's a restrain 0:10:59.760 --> 0:11:04.200 of trade under federal anti trust law. But uh, you know, 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:08.480 we were this little company and Pillsbury was this huge 0:11:08.520 --> 0:11:11.120 company with a lot of lawyers that they could afford 0:11:11.200 --> 0:11:13.200 to spend a lot of money on and we didn't. 0:11:13.960 --> 0:11:18.920 So we figured what we would do is we would 0:11:19.120 --> 0:11:20.719 let the public know what's going on. 0:11:21.440 --> 0:11:24.680 And uh, you know, so we started the what's the 0:11:24.679 --> 0:11:26.160 Doughboy afraid of? Campaign? 0:11:26.280 --> 0:11:31.160 We had aerial banners flying over the sports stadiums in 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.680 Boston saying what's the dough boy afraid of? And we 0:11:33.840 --> 0:11:37.760 had you know, bus signs on the sides of the 0:11:37.800 --> 0:11:41.439 buses that showed these two pudgy white hands coming out 0:11:41.440 --> 0:11:45.920 from behind the sign squeezing Ben and Jerry's saying, don't 0:11:46.000 --> 0:11:49.160 let Pillsbury's dollars strangle Ben and Jerry's ice cream. 0:11:49.200 --> 0:11:50.480 What's the dough boy afraid of? 0:11:51.400 --> 0:11:53.600 And you know, we were making a little headway and 0:11:53.679 --> 0:11:57.360 then we thought, you know, who really cares. 0:11:57.120 --> 0:12:01.160 If Ben and Jerry's goes down? The tubes said, well, 0:12:01.160 --> 0:12:02.640 it must be our customers. 0:12:03.040 --> 0:12:06.880 So we put an eight hundred number on our pine 0:12:06.920 --> 0:12:11.160 containers with a sticker, and you know, eight hundred numbers 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.720 were new at the time, and you call it up 0:12:14.720 --> 0:12:17.520 and you get an answering machine with tape. They were 0:12:17.559 --> 0:12:21.000 new at the time too, and you know when you 0:12:21.040 --> 0:12:23.040 call it up, you know you got a recording from 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:25.520 Jerry and myself telling the story of what was going 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.000 on and asking people to leave their name and address 0:12:28.120 --> 0:12:30.960 for a dough boy kit and we would mail them 0:12:31.280 --> 0:12:33.559 what's the dough Boy afraid of bumper sticker for their 0:12:33.640 --> 0:12:35.880 car and a write in letter to the chairman of 0:12:35.920 --> 0:12:38.840 the board of Pillsbury and a chance to send in 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:40.959 ten dollars and get a t shirt that said Ben 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:44.319 and Jerry's Legal Defense Fund major contributor. 0:12:44.640 --> 0:12:47.520 So it worked. In the end, it did. The media 0:12:47.559 --> 0:12:48.400 started to pick it up. 0:12:48.440 --> 0:12:51.079 Well, what happened was because of that eight hundred number, 0:12:51.679 --> 0:12:55.680 we started getting several hundred calls a week, mostly between 0:12:55.679 --> 0:12:58.200 the hours of midnight and three am, which is when 0:12:58.320 --> 0:13:01.120 people are eating our ice cream, I guess us. And 0:13:01.520 --> 0:13:04.920 the media picked it up, and the Pillsbury dough Boy 0:13:05.000 --> 0:13:08.080 was getting such a black Eye that Pillsbury relented. 0:13:07.800 --> 0:13:13.520 And you've used this essentially customer love for the brand 0:13:13.559 --> 0:13:16.560 to try and get a lot of your social mission 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:20.160 also heard and fought for now under Unilever, there was 0:13:20.200 --> 0:13:23.440 an interview of yours for the podcast How I Build 0:13:23.520 --> 0:13:27.240 This by Guy raz And twenty seventeen. Under Unilever, from 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:31.200 until twenty seventeen, it seemed you and Jerry were quite 0:13:31.240 --> 0:13:36.040 happy with how Unilever had managed the company because it 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:39.920 continued to support social causes like occupy Wall Street as 0:13:39.920 --> 0:13:44.319 a corporation going against other corporations, or you know, even 0:13:44.800 --> 0:13:48.280 the climate change ice cream that you'd put out. What 0:13:48.520 --> 0:13:52.160 changed because right now you're running a campaign against well 0:13:52.320 --> 0:13:54.760 Unilever a is part owner, but Magnum Corporation, which has 0:13:54.800 --> 0:13:58.880 spun out of Unilever. What changed between twenty seventeen and 0:13:58.960 --> 0:14:02.520 now that you don't think what Unilever or Magnum is 0:14:02.559 --> 0:14:03.120 doing is right. 0:14:04.679 --> 0:14:09.359 The major change that happened was in twenty twenty one when. 0:14:10.760 --> 0:14:14.080 Unilever and the independent Board of directors of Ben and 0:14:14.160 --> 0:14:17.400 Jerry's and the management of Ben and Jerry's, after a 0:14:17.440 --> 0:14:21.120 lot of study, all agreed that Ben and Jerry should 0:14:21.200 --> 0:14:25.360 stop selling in the occupied territories in the West Bank 0:14:25.800 --> 0:14:31.480 of Palestine, and so we announced that we were pulling out. 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:34.720 And what I'm told is that the head of Israel 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.080 called up the head of Unilever and said, if you don't. 0:14:37.840 --> 0:14:40.160 Get that ice cream back here, we're going to kick 0:14:40.200 --> 0:14:40.680 out all. 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.720 The Unilever businesses from Israel. And they had quite a 0:14:43.760 --> 0:14:48.520 few there. So, you know, Unilever on its own sold 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:51.000 off the rights to Ben and Jerry's too in Israeli 0:14:51.400 --> 0:14:55.280 and that was something that Unilever wasn't allowed to do. 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:59.720 That that was the purview of this independent board of directors. 0:15:00.280 --> 0:15:04.320 So Unilever has since then gone even one step further. 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:08.120 It's spun out its entire ice cream division, including the 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:12.160 Ben and Jerry's brand, under Magnum correct now for Magnum. 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.000 It is now a nine billion euro company and something 0:15:16.040 --> 0:15:18.680 like ten percent of fifteen percent of all its sales 0:15:18.720 --> 0:15:21.440 are down to the Ben and Jerry's brand. So it's 0:15:21.520 --> 0:15:25.720 very valuable as a brand to them. But Magnum has 0:15:25.720 --> 0:15:29.400 also made it clear to you that they are not 0:15:29.560 --> 0:15:32.400 selling the brand because it's so valuable. You are now 0:15:32.480 --> 0:15:35.040 running a campaign to try and free Ben and Jerry's 0:15:35.080 --> 0:15:39.000 from the Magnum brand. How is that campaign going? How 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:39.880 will you succeed? 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.080 I think the campaign is gathering more and more traction. 0:15:45.880 --> 0:15:48.440 You know, there's over one hundred and thirty thousand people 0:15:48.560 --> 0:15:54.200 that have signed petitions and letters to Magnum. Our supporters 0:15:54.280 --> 0:15:58.200 want to do more than that, so they've been kind 0:15:58.200 --> 0:16:02.680 of infiltrating the Magnum social media, you know, saying free 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:05.200 Ben and Jerry's. And you know, that's been going so 0:16:05.400 --> 0:16:08.600 well that Magnum has changed their settings so if you 0:16:08.720 --> 0:16:12.760 tag Magnum, it doesn't show up on their social media anymore. 0:16:12.840 --> 0:16:15.120 So now you have to actually go to their page 0:16:15.200 --> 0:16:19.320 and comment. And in terms of media coverage, there's there's 0:16:19.360 --> 0:16:21.520 more and more attention being paid to it. 0:16:26.680 --> 0:16:30.280 After the break, I asked Ben Cohen whether people really 0:16:30.320 --> 0:16:33.600 buy Ben and Jerry's for its social impact because they 0:16:33.640 --> 0:16:37.000 just like the taste. If you're enjoying this episode and 0:16:37.080 --> 0:16:39.600 everything we do here at Zero, please take a couple 0:16:39.600 --> 0:16:42.560 of minutes to write us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:45.760 or YouTube, where you can watch a full video of 0:16:45.840 --> 0:17:08.280 this conversation. Getting one hundred and thirty thousand signatures, you know, 0:17:09.200 --> 0:17:12.480 an important achievement, but the way I understand, if you're 0:17:12.480 --> 0:17:16.600 going to remove free the Ben and Jerry's brand from 0:17:16.640 --> 0:17:19.720 a giant corporation like Magdem, you're going to have to 0:17:19.720 --> 0:17:23.800 convince the shareholders who own the company to allow this 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.280 kind of thing to happen, right, And so far I've 0:17:27.280 --> 0:17:30.240 only seen like one letter, it was dated May first 0:17:30.480 --> 0:17:33.720 this year, from a set of shareholders who own about 0:17:33.760 --> 0:17:37.520 one million euros worth of shares in the company, asking 0:17:37.600 --> 0:17:40.240 questions of Magnum what is it doing to respect the 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:44.640 independent social mission of Ben and Jerry's. That's roughly point 0:17:44.760 --> 0:17:48.320 zero one percent of the company is total value, So 0:17:48.359 --> 0:17:50.800 you have a long way to go to convince shareholders. 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.440 What are you doing to convince the people who own 0:17:53.480 --> 0:17:56.200 the company to let Ben and Jerry's be free? 0:17:56.440 --> 0:18:00.480 Yeah, I think that the decision making body is actually 0:18:00.520 --> 0:18:03.720 their board of directors, and that's. 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:06.119 Who we're trying to influence. 0:18:06.600 --> 0:18:10.720 And you know, we're making two major points from a 0:18:10.760 --> 0:18:14.760 fiduciary point of view. One is that they ended up 0:18:14.880 --> 0:18:18.280 charging their shareholders quite a bit of money for the 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:23.120 Ben and Jerry's brand, and that by not allowing the 0:18:23.119 --> 0:18:30.040 brand to actualize its social mission, especially today when trump 0:18:30.240 --> 0:18:34.800 Ism is essentially the biggest attack on the values of 0:18:34.800 --> 0:18:39.520 Ben and Jerry since the company was founded, and Magnum 0:18:39.560 --> 0:18:45.560 has said, you cannot criticize Trump, you cannot do things 0:18:45.680 --> 0:18:48.800 that Trump doesn't you know, you can't criticize things that 0:18:48.840 --> 0:18:54.160 Trump likes. And you know that kind of makes Ben 0:18:54.200 --> 0:18:58.800 and Jury's pretty hypocritical, and I think it really damages 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:04.920 the brand. And so put simply, the very values led business. 0:19:04.600 --> 0:19:06.160 Structure that's made Ben. 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:10.840 And Jerry's into the brand it is today is precisely 0:19:10.880 --> 0:19:13.560 the thing that Magnum is in the process of destroying. 0:19:13.840 --> 0:19:16.120 But this is in a way, you're trying to convince 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:19.240 the shareholders that the reputation of Ben and Jerry's, the 0:19:19.280 --> 0:19:22.680 thing that makes them sell Ben and Jerry's and earn 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:27.480 so much money, is at stake. But Magnum doesn't think so, 0:19:28.160 --> 0:19:30.879 and sales of Ben and Jerry's continue to do well. 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:33.359 So do you think people are really buying Ben and 0:19:33.400 --> 0:19:36.720 Jerry's for the social mission or they just like the 0:19:36.760 --> 0:19:37.320 ice cream? 0:19:37.480 --> 0:19:40.480 Well, I mean some people are just buying it because 0:19:40.520 --> 0:19:43.159 of the ice cream, and some people buy it because 0:19:43.200 --> 0:19:46.600 of the ice cream and the social mission. And you know, 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:51.880 if you think about how traditional companies do advertising and marketing. 0:19:52.200 --> 0:19:56.200 I mean mostly it's about kind of making up, you know, 0:19:56.400 --> 0:20:01.240 funny stories or emotional stories to get people to like 0:20:01.320 --> 0:20:02.160 the brand. 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:06.440 But it's a pretty ephemeral connection. 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:12.440 And for Ben and Jerry's, the relationship that it has 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:17.280 with its customers is based on shared values, which is a. 0:20:17.359 --> 0:20:20.320 Very very strong and deep connection. 0:20:21.320 --> 0:20:25.840 So I think that's what's at stake here, and you 0:20:25.880 --> 0:20:30.280 know it's the destruction is going to happen gradually. It's 0:20:30.320 --> 0:20:34.680 not going to happen overnight. People remember the things that 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:35.520 it used to do. 0:20:36.040 --> 0:20:38.320 One thing you can do in making this business case 0:20:38.400 --> 0:20:41.720 is go to the shareholders, who are people who run 0:20:41.800 --> 0:20:44.480 other businesses. Right. I was looking at the top twenty 0:20:44.520 --> 0:20:48.800 shareholders in the Magnum corporation and you have the big names. 0:20:48.840 --> 0:20:51.639 You have black Rock, you have Vanguard, you have Goldman Sachs, 0:20:51.680 --> 0:20:54.800 you have Wellington Management, you even have the Norwegian Sovereign 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:57.439 Wealth Fund in there. Have you tried to make a 0:20:57.480 --> 0:21:01.000 case to them that the social of Ben and Jerry's 0:21:01.000 --> 0:21:03.479 is what is providing them with the returns that they 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:05.639 are gaining right now and that is under threat. 0:21:06.000 --> 0:21:10.159 We have not, but especially when you mentioned the Norwegian 0:21:10.320 --> 0:21:13.760 Sovereign Wealth Fund, My understanding is that they've got some 0:21:13.920 --> 0:21:14.920 social values. 0:21:15.280 --> 0:21:17.640 We should probably talk to them. 0:21:18.119 --> 0:21:20.919 Take a step back, and you've run a business that 0:21:21.040 --> 0:21:25.119 has had a social mission. There are not that many businesses. 0:21:25.280 --> 0:21:28.359 You talked a few about B corporations. They're growing in number, 0:21:28.720 --> 0:21:31.640 but really, if you think of a recognizable brand that 0:21:31.920 --> 0:21:36.040 continues to have a social mission and generate returns, Patagonia 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:39.479 is the other name that comes to mind. What is 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:44.520 holding back more companies from having social missions? Of working 0:21:44.800 --> 0:21:47.440 the way you have to show that the people who 0:21:47.440 --> 0:21:50.240 buy it with that care and then they come back 0:21:50.440 --> 0:21:53.960 to support the types of causes that you are fighting for. 0:21:54.520 --> 0:21:56.600 Why is it that more companies aren't doing it? 0:21:57.480 --> 0:22:01.719 I think that the traditional business man is that the 0:22:01.760 --> 0:22:05.800 purpose of a business is to maximize short term profits. 0:22:05.960 --> 0:22:09.119 And that's what they do. That's what they learned in 0:22:09.160 --> 0:22:09.919 business school. 0:22:10.359 --> 0:22:15.200 And uh, you know that the people that are running 0:22:15.240 --> 0:22:20.439 them don't understand that it's really possible to combine both things. 0:22:21.560 --> 0:22:26.359 It's easier to just hire an advertising agency and U 0:22:26.600 --> 0:22:30.359 and a PR agency too to make up stories that 0:22:30.440 --> 0:22:33.200 people like that make them feel. 0:22:32.920 --> 0:22:33.640 Good about it. 0:22:34.320 --> 0:22:37.679 You know, I think a lot of businesses, business people 0:22:38.000 --> 0:22:43.960 are concerned about taking a stand on something where not 0:22:44.119 --> 0:22:45.760 everybody is going to agree with it. 0:22:46.440 --> 0:22:48.680 What I've always said is that if. 0:22:48.600 --> 0:22:51.000 You're going to take a stand on something and everybody 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:53.560 already agrees with it, you didn't need to take a 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.400 stand on it to begin with. But the other thing 0:22:56.480 --> 0:23:00.359 to understand is that, you know, no business has one 0:23:00.400 --> 0:23:05.000 hundred percent market share. You don't have to appeal to everybody. 0:23:05.600 --> 0:23:08.639 You have to appeal to a few, you know, a 0:23:08.680 --> 0:23:14.119 percentage a lot. And I think by by having a 0:23:14.200 --> 0:23:18.960 social mission, by by having this relationship based on shared. 0:23:18.720 --> 0:23:23.400 Values, you do appeal to people a lot. 0:23:24.000 --> 0:23:26.480 Benejei's has been around for fifty years, You've seen this 0:23:27.040 --> 0:23:30.399 change in how business is done over those fifty years. 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:35.440 Do you think this recent backlash against sort of environmental 0:23:35.480 --> 0:23:39.080 social governance factors the things that would make companies go 0:23:39.200 --> 0:23:43.680 towards having a social mission and building a company around 0:23:43.960 --> 0:23:47.240 not just profits, but also providing services that people want. 0:23:48.080 --> 0:23:51.479 Do you think that backlash is you know, a trend 0:23:51.480 --> 0:23:53.560 and that it will reverse at some point, or do 0:23:53.640 --> 0:23:58.560 you see that this is a real rupture from what 0:23:58.840 --> 0:24:02.439 was in the past that was helping more companies have 0:24:02.520 --> 0:24:03.480 a social machine. 0:24:03.560 --> 0:24:08.240 I think, uh, you know, companies that were just following 0:24:09.160 --> 0:24:13.600 the trends following maybe they thought it was fads following 0:24:13.680 --> 0:24:17.800 the following the market. You know, the market says black 0:24:17.840 --> 0:24:20.560 lives matter. Okay, we're going to say black lives matter. 0:24:20.680 --> 0:24:26.160 The market says diversity equity and inclusion matters. Okay, we're 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:30.199 going to do diversity equity inclusion. And then you know, 0:24:30.440 --> 0:24:33.320 the President comes in to the White House and says 0:24:33.400 --> 0:24:38.280 diversity equity inclusion is bad, so they jettison diversity, equity 0:24:38.480 --> 0:24:43.600 and inclusion. The issue is that they were just kind 0:24:43.600 --> 0:24:46.439 of tacking these things on. It was not part of 0:24:46.480 --> 0:24:49.800 the mission of the company. It was not part of 0:24:49.840 --> 0:24:54.280 the purpose of the company. So they just thought, well, 0:24:54.359 --> 0:24:55.440 this is the latest trend. 0:24:55.480 --> 0:24:57.600 I'm going to do it. Now it's not the latest trend, 0:24:57.600 --> 0:24:58.479