Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I am Aksha Drati. This week the
Speaker 1: ice cream wars. Ice Cream is my guilty pleasure, and
Speaker 1: I'm glad to report that today I get to talk
Speaker 1: about it on this climate podcast because there's currently an
Speaker 1: ice cream war that's raging and it involves Ben Cohen,
Speaker 1: the co founder of the ice cream brand Ben and Jerry's.
Speaker 2: Put simply, the very values led business structure that's made
Speaker 2: Ben and Jerry's into the brand it is today is
Speaker 2: precisely the thing that Magnum is in the process of destroying.
Speaker 1: The best introduction to Ben and Jerry's is their ice
Speaker 1: cream flavors Cherry, Garcia, fish food, cookie dough, half baked,
Speaker 1: and the list goes on for this episode, though the
Speaker 1: history of Benanjerry's is probably more relevant. The company was
Speaker 1: founded in nineteen seventy eight by Ben Cohen and Jerry
Speaker 1: Grainfield in the U S state of Vermont and quickly
Speaker 1: grew to be a nationwide brand known for its chunky
Speaker 1: ice cream and support for social causes refugees, LGBTQ, communities,
Speaker 1: and climate justice. Just a decade after the business was founded,
Speaker 1: Cohen and Greenfield were named U S Small Business Persons
Speaker 1: of the Year by President Ronald Reagan at a ceremony
Speaker 1: at the White House. Now fast forward to two thousand,
Speaker 1: the company gets bought by the global food giant Unilever,
Speaker 1: with a promise that Beningerry's can continue its social mission.
Speaker 1: As you'll hear in the interview, Unilever did support that
Speaker 1: social mission until twenty twenty one. That's when Benanjerry's decided
Speaker 1: to halt its distribution in the West Bank as an
Speaker 1: act of solidarity for the people of Palestine. An Unilever
Speaker 1: took steps that angered the founders Ben and Jerry. Before
Speaker 1: those issues could be resolved, in July twenty twenty five,
Speaker 1: Unilever spun its entire ice cream division out into the
Speaker 1: Magnum ice Cream Company, with Ben and Jerry's as one
Speaker 1: of its leading brands. The way Unilever acted since twenty
Speaker 1: twenty one has caused Ben and Jerry a lot of grief.
Speaker 1: Jerry quit the company last year, and Ben went on
Speaker 1: to start a campaign to spin out Ben and Jerry's
Speaker 1: as an independent company. Magnum says Ben and Jerry's is
Speaker 1: not for sale and that the brand is thriving under
Speaker 1: its ownership. Ben disagrees, so I sat down with Ben
Speaker 1: Cohen at the recent south By Southwest Festival in London
Speaker 1: to ask about the Free Benanjerry's campaign, why he thinks
Speaker 1: it is important for businesses to pursue social causes, and
Speaker 1: what the future of ice cream is on a warming planet.
Speaker 1: Listen to the end for a full response to Ben's
Speaker 1: comments from Ben and Jerry's, the brand, and from its
Speaker 1: owner Magnum. Also, if you'd like to watch a video
Speaker 1: version of this episode, you can do that on YouTube.
Speaker 1: We've put a link in the show notes. Ben, Welcome
Speaker 1: to zero.
Speaker 3: Hi, good to be here at zero. So over the.
Speaker 1: Years, Ben and Jerry's has stood for a number of
Speaker 1: progressive causes, including acting on climate change. And this is
Speaker 1: a climate podcast, so we will touch on climate issues.
Speaker 1: But let's just start with why you've got a company
Speaker 1: involved in social causes in the first place. Because most
Speaker 1: people will say that the role of a company, what
Speaker 1: it's set up for, is to provide returns to shareholders,
Speaker 1: not to work on social stuff.
Speaker 3: What we discovered is that it's possible to do both.
Speaker 2: This idea that companies can't be responsible, can't care about
Speaker 2: the community, can't work to repair problems economic.
Speaker 3: Or social justice or the environment. It's just false.
Speaker 2: Businesses are incredibly powerful. They're the most powerful force in
Speaker 2: our society. And if business isn't going to be paying
Speaker 2: attention to the problems, they are never going to get solved.
Speaker 1: Ben and Jerry's was created in Burlington, Vermont in nineteen
Speaker 1: seventy eight, and since the nineteen eighties you're really known
Speaker 1: for not just the ice cream, but all the social
Speaker 1: causes that you've supported over the years. Until two thousand,
Speaker 1: Ben and Jerry's was very much run by you and Jerry,
Speaker 1: but then it was bought by Unilever. Now, at the
Speaker 1: time Ben and Jerry's was a public company.
Speaker 3: Then uni Lever was.
Speaker 1: Trying to take over. You and Jerry did not have
Speaker 1: a controlling stake, so you couldn't stop the takeover from happening.
Speaker 1: It sort of happened against your wishes, is what you've said.
Speaker 3: That's correct.
Speaker 1: It happened because Ben and Jerry's was a public company.
Speaker 1: Do you regret taking Ben and Jerry's public in the
Speaker 1: first place.
Speaker 2: You know, I guess considering what happened, yeah, I do
Speaker 2: regret that we thought that we had legal controls in
Speaker 2: place that would have prevented that from happening, but apparently
Speaker 2: we didn't. I think there's there's other mechanisms that now exist,
Speaker 2: like B corporations and steward ownership models that would have
Speaker 2: prevented what happened, But yeah, I do regret.
Speaker 1: So despite selling the company to Unilever, at least until recently,
Speaker 1: Ben and Jerry's continued to push its social mission. And
Speaker 1: that was because of this unique place in which Ben
Speaker 1: and Jerry's ended up inside a giant corporation, but with
Speaker 1: this independent board of directors that you say has legal
Speaker 1: authority over the company's social mission in perpetuity. How exactly
Speaker 1: did you convince Unilever, a giant corporation to create the
Speaker 1: structure because you know, like I cover companies for my job,
Speaker 1: and I really cannot think of a company that would
Speaker 1: look at this structure and be okay with the liabilities
Speaker 1: that would come with it. How did you pull it off?
Speaker 2: Well, what happened was that Unilever and Neslei were the
Speaker 2: two global ice cream players. They were arch competitors, and
Speaker 2: Nesley bought Hagendas, so they had a super premium ice
Speaker 2: cream and Unilever didn't, So they really wanted to have one,
Speaker 2: and Ben and Jerry's was one, and so they wanted
Speaker 2: to acquire it. As you said, Jerry and I were
Speaker 2: very resistant to that, and we were resistant.
Speaker 3: Because we thought.
Speaker 2: That the values would you know, would disappear, that the
Speaker 2: social mission would you know, would essentially evaporate. And so
Speaker 2: Unilever kind of understood that and UH said, well, we
Speaker 2: can write the social mission into the contract, into the
Speaker 2: purchase and sales agreement. And when we tried to do that,
Speaker 2: we realized that you couldn't do that because the social
Speaker 2: mission needed to evolve and change.
Speaker 3: With the times.
Speaker 2: And so what was set up is that the structure
Speaker 2: that was purchased became a wholly owned independent subsidiary.
Speaker 3: So the way it was explained to.
Speaker 2: Me is that well before we had thousands of shareholders
Speaker 2: and now it would be just the same, except we'd
Speaker 2: only have one shareholder. But our concern was that Unilever
Speaker 2: didn't have the same social so if the owner doesn't,
Speaker 2: then you know, we figured it would go away and
Speaker 2: we couldn't write it in. And the solution was to
Speaker 2: form this independent board of directors for the holy owned
Speaker 2: subsidiary inside Unilever that has legal authority for the social
Speaker 2: mission and the quality of the ice cream, the use
Speaker 2: of the trademark and a few other things.
Speaker 1: But you did not have much of an ownership stake
Speaker 1: at the time. So what was your leverage to make
Speaker 1: Unilever to create the structure at all.
Speaker 2: Well, there were when you have a public company and
Speaker 2: another company makes an offer to buy it, then the
Speaker 2: company becomes what they call in play, and other companies
Speaker 2: can then make offers to buy it. And there were
Speaker 2: other companies making offers, and Unilever wanted to make the
Speaker 2: best want.
Speaker 3: So I think that's.
Speaker 2: Why they came up with this, why they agreed to
Speaker 2: this independence and board.
Speaker 1: So beyond the social mission in a way, resistance to
Speaker 1: large corporation is also something that has been part of
Speaker 1: Ben and Jerry's work. So talk me through the very
Speaker 1: first resistance campaign that you and Jerry ran against Pillsbury.
Speaker 1: What's the dough boy afraid of? What was that about?
Speaker 3: Sure?
Speaker 2: So, you know, in the early days, Ben and Jurry's
Speaker 2: was just starting to sell its ice cream over state
Speaker 2: lines beyond Vermont, right beyond Vermont, and so we sold
Speaker 2: into New Hampshire and Maine, and then we went into
Speaker 2: our first major market, which was Boston. When we went
Speaker 2: into Boston, what happened was that Pillsbury had purchased hoggand
Speaker 2: Us and both brands, hagened Us and Ben and Jury's
Speaker 2: were being distributed by the same distributors. They distributed about
Speaker 2: twenty different brands of ice cream. And the Pillsbury guys
Speaker 2: ca to our distributors and said, if you continue to
Speaker 2: sell Ben and Jerry's, we're not going to sell Yahagan
Speaker 2: Dos anymore. So, you know, and the distributors came to us,
Speaker 2: they said, hey, Ben Jerry, we really like you guys.
Speaker 2: It's really good ice cream. But you know, Haggen Dost
Speaker 2: has been around a long time. It's the biggest selling
Speaker 2: thing we have on our trucks. And I said, we
Speaker 2: can't have both, and so we're going.
Speaker 3: To have to drop your ice cream.
Speaker 2: And you know the problem was that we had just
Speaker 2: had an in state Vermont public stock offering, so we
Speaker 2: had sold shares in our company to our neighbors. One
Speaker 2: out of every hundred Vermont families had become an owner.
Speaker 3: Wow.
Speaker 2: So here was this existential threat to the company because
Speaker 2: if we couldn't sell to a distributor who was already
Speaker 2: carrying hogen dust. We really couldn't sell to any decent
Speaker 2: distributors all around the country because they were all carrying Hagendus.
Speaker 2: You know, we've realized that, you know, it's a restrain
Speaker 2: of trade under federal anti trust law. But uh, you know,
Speaker 2: we were this little company and Pillsbury was this huge
Speaker 2: company with a lot of lawyers that they could afford
Speaker 2: to spend a lot of money on and we didn't.
Speaker 2: So we figured what we would do is we would
Speaker 2: let the public know what's going on.
Speaker 3: And uh, you know, so we started the what's the
Speaker 3: Doughboy afraid of? Campaign?
Speaker 2: We had aerial banners flying over the sports stadiums in
Speaker 2: Boston saying what's the dough boy afraid of? And we
Speaker 2: had you know, bus signs on the sides of the
Speaker 2: buses that showed these two pudgy white hands coming out
Speaker 2: from behind the sign squeezing Ben and Jerry's saying, don't
Speaker 2: let Pillsbury's dollars strangle Ben and Jerry's ice cream.
Speaker 3: What's the dough boy afraid of?
Speaker 2: And you know, we were making a little headway and
Speaker 2: then we thought, you know, who really cares.
Speaker 3: If Ben and Jerry's goes down? The tubes said, well,
Speaker 3: it must be our customers.
Speaker 2: So we put an eight hundred number on our pine
Speaker 2: containers with a sticker, and you know, eight hundred numbers
Speaker 2: were new at the time, and you call it up
Speaker 2: and you get an answering machine with tape. They were
Speaker 2: new at the time too, and you know when you
Speaker 2: call it up, you know you got a recording from
Speaker 2: Jerry and myself telling the story of what was going
Speaker 2: on and asking people to leave their name and address
Speaker 2: for a dough boy kit and we would mail them
Speaker 2: what's the dough Boy afraid of bumper sticker for their
Speaker 2: car and a write in letter to the chairman of
Speaker 2: the board of Pillsbury and a chance to send in
Speaker 2: ten dollars and get a t shirt that said Ben
Speaker 2: and Jerry's Legal Defense Fund major contributor.
Speaker 3: So it worked. In the end, it did. The media
Speaker 3: started to pick it up.
Speaker 2: Well, what happened was because of that eight hundred number,
Speaker 2: we started getting several hundred calls a week, mostly between
Speaker 2: the hours of midnight and three am, which is when
Speaker 2: people are eating our ice cream, I guess us. And
Speaker 2: the media picked it up, and the Pillsbury dough Boy
Speaker 2: was getting such a black Eye that Pillsbury relented.
Speaker 1: And you've used this essentially customer love for the brand
Speaker 1: to try and get a lot of your social mission
Speaker 1: also heard and fought for now under Unilever, there was
Speaker 1: an interview of yours for the podcast How I Build
Speaker 1: This by Guy raz And twenty seventeen. Under Unilever, from
Speaker 1: until twenty seventeen, it seemed you and Jerry were quite
Speaker 1: happy with how Unilever had managed the company because it
Speaker 1: continued to support social causes like occupy Wall Street as
Speaker 1: a corporation going against other corporations, or you know, even
Speaker 1: the climate change ice cream that you'd put out. What
Speaker 1: changed because right now you're running a campaign against well
Speaker 1: Unilever a is part owner, but Magnum Corporation, which has
Speaker 1: spun out of Unilever. What changed between twenty seventeen and
Speaker 1: now that you don't think what Unilever or Magnum is
Speaker 1: doing is right.
Speaker 3: The major change that happened was in twenty twenty one when.
Speaker 2: Unilever and the independent Board of directors of Ben and
Speaker 2: Jerry's and the management of Ben and Jerry's, after a
Speaker 2: lot of study, all agreed that Ben and Jerry should
Speaker 2: stop selling in the occupied territories in the West Bank
Speaker 2: of Palestine, and so we announced that we were pulling out.
Speaker 2: And what I'm told is that the head of Israel
Speaker 2: called up the head of Unilever and said, if you don't.
Speaker 3: Get that ice cream back here, we're going to kick
Speaker 3: out all.
Speaker 2: The Unilever businesses from Israel. And they had quite a
Speaker 2: few there. So, you know, Unilever on its own sold
Speaker 2: off the rights to Ben and Jerry's too in Israeli
Speaker 2: and that was something that Unilever wasn't allowed to do.
Speaker 3: That that was the purview of this independent board of directors.
Speaker 1: So Unilever has since then gone even one step further.
Speaker 1: It's spun out its entire ice cream division, including the
Speaker 1: Ben and Jerry's brand, under Magnum correct now for Magnum.
Speaker 1: It is now a nine billion euro company and something
Speaker 1: like ten percent of fifteen percent of all its sales
Speaker 1: are down to the Ben and Jerry's brand. So it's
Speaker 1: very valuable as a brand to them. But Magnum has
Speaker 1: also made it clear to you that they are not
Speaker 1: selling the brand because it's so valuable. You are now
Speaker 1: running a campaign to try and free Ben and Jerry's
Speaker 1: from the Magnum brand. How is that campaign going? How
Speaker 1: will you succeed?
Speaker 2: I think the campaign is gathering more and more traction.
Speaker 2: You know, there's over one hundred and thirty thousand people
Speaker 2: that have signed petitions and letters to Magnum. Our supporters
Speaker 2: want to do more than that, so they've been kind
Speaker 2: of infiltrating the Magnum social media, you know, saying free
Speaker 2: Ben and Jerry's. And you know, that's been going so
Speaker 2: well that Magnum has changed their settings so if you
Speaker 2: tag Magnum, it doesn't show up on their social media anymore.
Speaker 2: So now you have to actually go to their page
Speaker 2: and comment. And in terms of media coverage, there's there's
Speaker 2: more and more attention being paid to it.
Speaker 1: After the break, I asked Ben Cohen whether people really
Speaker 1: buy Ben and Jerry's for its social impact because they
Speaker 1: just like the taste. If you're enjoying this episode and
Speaker 1: everything we do here at Zero, please take a couple
Speaker 1: of minutes to write us a review on Apple Podcasts, Spotify,
Speaker 1: or YouTube, where you can watch a full video of
Speaker 1: this conversation. Getting one hundred and thirty thousand signatures, you know,
Speaker 1: an important achievement, but the way I understand, if you're
Speaker 1: going to remove free the Ben and Jerry's brand from
Speaker 1: a giant corporation like Magdem, you're going to have to
Speaker 1: convince the shareholders who own the company to allow this
Speaker 1: kind of thing to happen, right, And so far I've
Speaker 1: only seen like one letter, it was dated May first
Speaker 1: this year, from a set of shareholders who own about
Speaker 1: one million euros worth of shares in the company, asking
Speaker 1: questions of Magnum what is it doing to respect the
Speaker 1: independent social mission of Ben and Jerry's. That's roughly point
Speaker 1: zero one percent of the company is total value, So
Speaker 1: you have a long way to go to convince shareholders.
Speaker 1: What are you doing to convince the people who own
Speaker 1: the company to let Ben and Jerry's be free?
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that the decision making body is actually
Speaker 2: their board of directors, and that's.
Speaker 3: Who we're trying to influence.
Speaker 2: And you know, we're making two major points from a
Speaker 2: fiduciary point of view. One is that they ended up
Speaker 2: charging their shareholders quite a bit of money for the
Speaker 2: Ben and Jerry's brand, and that by not allowing the
Speaker 2: brand to actualize its social mission, especially today when trump
Speaker 2: Ism is essentially the biggest attack on the values of
Speaker 2: Ben and Jerry since the company was founded, and Magnum
Speaker 2: has said, you cannot criticize Trump, you cannot do things
Speaker 2: that Trump doesn't you know, you can't criticize things that
Speaker 2: Trump likes. And you know that kind of makes Ben
Speaker 2: and Jury's pretty hypocritical, and I think it really damages
Speaker 2: the brand. And so put simply, the very values led business.
Speaker 3: Structure that's made Ben.
Speaker 2: And Jerry's into the brand it is today is precisely
Speaker 2: the thing that Magnum is in the process of destroying.
Speaker 1: But this is in a way, you're trying to convince
Speaker 1: the shareholders that the reputation of Ben and Jerry's, the
Speaker 1: thing that makes them sell Ben and Jerry's and earn
Speaker 1: so much money, is at stake. But Magnum doesn't think so,
Speaker 1: and sales of Ben and Jerry's continue to do well.
Speaker 1: So do you think people are really buying Ben and
Speaker 1: Jerry's for the social mission or they just like the
Speaker 1: ice cream?
Speaker 2: Well, I mean some people are just buying it because
Speaker 2: of the ice cream, and some people buy it because
Speaker 2: of the ice cream and the social mission. And you know,
Speaker 2: if you think about how traditional companies do advertising and marketing.
Speaker 2: I mean mostly it's about kind of making up, you know,
Speaker 2: funny stories or emotional stories to get people to like
Speaker 2: the brand.
Speaker 3: But it's a pretty ephemeral connection.
Speaker 2: And for Ben and Jerry's, the relationship that it has
Speaker 2: with its customers is based on shared values, which is a.
Speaker 3: Very very strong and deep connection.
Speaker 2: So I think that's what's at stake here, and you
Speaker 2: know it's the destruction is going to happen gradually. It's
Speaker 2: not going to happen overnight. People remember the things that
Speaker 2: it used to do.
Speaker 1: One thing you can do in making this business case
Speaker 1: is go to the shareholders, who are people who run
Speaker 1: other businesses. Right. I was looking at the top twenty
Speaker 1: shareholders in the Magnum corporation and you have the big names.
Speaker 1: You have black Rock, you have Vanguard, you have Goldman Sachs,
Speaker 1: you have Wellington Management, you even have the Norwegian Sovereign
Speaker 1: Wealth Fund in there. Have you tried to make a
Speaker 1: case to them that the social of Ben and Jerry's
Speaker 1: is what is providing them with the returns that they
Speaker 1: are gaining right now and that is under threat.
Speaker 2: We have not, but especially when you mentioned the Norwegian
Speaker 2: Sovereign Wealth Fund, My understanding is that they've got some
Speaker 2: social values.
Speaker 3: We should probably talk to them.
Speaker 1: Take a step back, and you've run a business that
Speaker 1: has had a social mission. There are not that many businesses.
Speaker 1: You talked a few about B corporations. They're growing in number,
Speaker 1: but really, if you think of a recognizable brand that
Speaker 1: continues to have a social mission and generate returns, Patagonia
Speaker 1: is the other name that comes to mind. What is
Speaker 1: holding back more companies from having social missions? Of working
Speaker 1: the way you have to show that the people who
Speaker 1: buy it with that care and then they come back
Speaker 1: to support the types of causes that you are fighting for.
Speaker 1: Why is it that more companies aren't doing it?
Speaker 2: I think that the traditional business man is that the
Speaker 2: purpose of a business is to maximize short term profits.
Speaker 3: And that's what they do. That's what they learned in
Speaker 3: business school.
Speaker 2: And uh, you know that the people that are running
Speaker 2: them don't understand that it's really possible to combine both things.
Speaker 2: It's easier to just hire an advertising agency and U
Speaker 2: and a PR agency too to make up stories that
Speaker 2: people like that make them feel.
Speaker 3: Good about it.
Speaker 2: You know, I think a lot of businesses, business people
Speaker 2: are concerned about taking a stand on something where not
Speaker 2: everybody is going to agree with it.
Speaker 3: What I've always said is that if.
Speaker 2: You're going to take a stand on something and everybody
Speaker 2: already agrees with it, you didn't need to take a
Speaker 2: stand on it to begin with. But the other thing
Speaker 2: to understand is that, you know, no business has one
Speaker 2: hundred percent market share. You don't have to appeal to everybody.
Speaker 2: You have to appeal to a few, you know, a
Speaker 2: percentage a lot. And I think by by having a
Speaker 2: social mission, by by having this relationship based on shared.
Speaker 3: Values, you do appeal to people a lot.
Speaker 1: Benejei's has been around for fifty years, You've seen this
Speaker 1: change in how business is done over those fifty years.
Speaker 1: Do you think this recent backlash against sort of environmental
Speaker 1: social governance factors the things that would make companies go
Speaker 1: towards having a social mission and building a company around
Speaker 1: not just profits, but also providing services that people want.
Speaker 1: Do you think that backlash is you know, a trend
Speaker 1: and that it will reverse at some point, or do
Speaker 1: you see that this is a real rupture from what
Speaker 1: was in the past that was helping more companies have
Speaker 1: a social machine.
Speaker 2: I think, uh, you know, companies that were just following
Speaker 2: the trends following maybe they thought it was fads following
Speaker 2: the following the market. You know, the market says black
Speaker 2: lives matter. Okay, we're going to say black lives matter.
Speaker 2: The market says diversity equity and inclusion matters. Okay, we're
Speaker 2: going to do diversity equity inclusion. And then you know,
Speaker 2: the President comes in to the White House and says
Speaker 2: diversity equity inclusion is bad, so they jettison diversity, equity
Speaker 2: and inclusion. The issue is that they were just kind
Speaker 2: of tacking these things on. It was not part of
Speaker 2: the mission of the company. It was not part of
Speaker 2: the purpose of the company. So they just thought, well,
Speaker 2: this is the latest trend.
Speaker 3: I'm going to do it. Now it's not the latest trend,
Speaker 3: I'm not going to do it.
Speaker 1: So one of the things that is core to Ben
Speaker 1: and Jerry's is relying on dairy. Yes, dairy as you
Speaker 1: know as a big contributor to climate change.
Speaker 3: You're talking about cow farts.
Speaker 1: Indeed, well a lot of the emissions are actually cowburbs
Speaker 1: rather than farts. But now the parts always make people laugh. Now,
Speaker 1: it is something that not just Ben and Jerry's, but
Speaker 1: other ice cream brands have to deal with. What is
Speaker 1: the way in which if a company is not just
Speaker 1: fighting for social causes but also has to act on them.
Speaker 1: You know, Ben and Jerry's has gone down the renewable
Speaker 1: energy path, but dairy isn't something that it's been able
Speaker 1: to address. What can be done for ice creams to
Speaker 1: cut their emissions to zero?
Speaker 2: Well, we have come out with non dairy quote unquote
Speaker 2: ice cream. It's other sorts of creams. I think we're
Speaker 2: using oats and you know, the product tastes great, and
Speaker 2: you know, if people buy more of that, we're going
Speaker 2: to make more.
Speaker 3: And less of the stuff with dairy.
Speaker 2: But you know the reality is that real milk and
Speaker 2: cream tastes really good and you don't need to use
Speaker 2: artificial ingredients, you don't need to use chemicals if you're
Speaker 2: using real milk and cream. I mean, it's you know,
Speaker 2: it's the same issue as say butter. I mean, I
Speaker 2: hope we're not saying that butter should not exist or
Speaker 2: that milk should not exist. You know, yes, I mean
Speaker 2: any business has a negative environmental impact, it has a footprint,
Speaker 2: and yeah, dairy is one of our footprints.
Speaker 1: And is it something that you've been able to do
Speaker 1: with Ben and Juria's. Where you educate the people in
Speaker 1: the choices that they are making. Can you help change
Speaker 1: the types of choices people are making as a company.
Speaker 2: Well, all Ben and Jerry's has done is provide an alternative,
Speaker 2: which is the non dairy frozen desserts that we make.
Speaker 3: We have not you know, gone out and said that
Speaker 3: milk and cream have a negative environmental impact. Should you.
Speaker 1: It's a good question, you know, I don't know when
Speaker 1: all these changes to the business were happening that weren't
Speaker 1: things that you liked. Did you ever consider starting a
Speaker 1: company that is I don't know, Jerry and Ben's and
Speaker 1: just coming up with your own counter brand to show
Speaker 1: what your brand used to really stand for?
Speaker 2: You know people have suggested that, but you know, starting
Speaker 2: a new company is a whole lot of work. And
Speaker 2: you know, Jerry and I were twenty six when we
Speaker 2: started Ben and Jerry's and had a you know, I
Speaker 2: had a lot more energy than we currently do. And
Speaker 2: starting a new company from scratches, you know, not not
Speaker 2: something that you know that I've thought of doing. I mean,
Speaker 2: I think that the important thing is is the power
Speaker 2: of Ben and Jerry's because it's gotten to be such
Speaker 2: a large company and it and its reputation is so good,
Speaker 2: and it's you know, well known in a large section
Speaker 2: of the world.
Speaker 3: You know, So.
Speaker 2: Starting one from scratch, trying to do that, it'll take
Speaker 2: you know, it took fifty years to build Ben and Jerry's.
Speaker 2: It would you know, it would probably take another fifty
Speaker 2: to do that.
Speaker 3: And the and the other.
Speaker 2: There's two other factors, which is the reason why I
Speaker 2: decided to put all my energy into freeing Ben and Jerry's.
Speaker 2: One is that Ben and Jerry's is one of the
Speaker 2: leaders of the social and responsible business movement. And if
Speaker 2: we lose that, if we newter Ben and Jerry's, it
Speaker 2: loses that leadership, and it's a real setback, I think.
Speaker 1: So in this process, you have this campaign, it's been
Speaker 1: running for some time now. You've also had a partner
Speaker 1: throughout this period in Jerry Greenfield, who you and Jerry
Speaker 1: have been friends for life and you continue to be
Speaker 1: friends now. But Jerry has quit in September twenty twenty five,
Speaker 1: he stopped being part of the resistance campaign. You continue,
Speaker 1: Why did Jerry quit?
Speaker 2: He resigned in protest, you know, Jerry is an amazing guy.
Speaker 2: He's my best friend, incredibly compassionate and kind and loving, smart,
Speaker 2: everything you'd want in a friend. But by his own admission,
Speaker 2: he's extremely conflict averse.
Speaker 3: And you know, I mean, I don't.
Speaker 2: Particularly like conflict myself, but I can take it and
Speaker 2: it you know, this is a conflict situation. It's kind
Speaker 2: of a battle, and it's not the kind of thing
Speaker 2: that Jerry could do.
Speaker 1: Thank you, Ben, you bet, and thank you for listening
Speaker 1: to zero. For a full video version of this conversation,
Speaker 1: search for it on YouTube or find a link in
Speaker 1: the show notes. We reached out to the Magnum company
Speaker 1: for comment. A spokesperson said, and I quote Ben and
Speaker 1: Jerry Rees is not for sale and is thriving as
Speaker 1: part of the Magnum ice Cream Company. Ben and Jerry's
Speaker 1: continues to advocate for a range of causes and is
Speaker 1: a bold voice for social justice. It has recently spoken
Speaker 1: out on ice, on the conflict in Iran, on freedom
Speaker 1: of speech, on migrant and refugee justice, in defense of
Speaker 1: democratic processes, and in support of No King's Day. In
Speaker 1: the US, the brand grew its sales three percent last
Speaker 1: year and gained market share in the US and Europe.
Speaker 1: As separate spokesperson for the brand, Ben and Jerry said,
Speaker 1: we are grateful to Ben Cohen and Jerry Greenfield for
Speaker 1: all they have done to inspire and build this company.
Speaker 1: Their vision and activism have shaped our mission for almost
Speaker 1: fifty years, and we continue to steward that mission forward.
Speaker 1: The company's program for dairy farm workers in Vermont, the Netherlands,
Speaker 1: Germany and the UK has worked for nearly two decades
Speaker 1: to advance climate smart farming practices, support farmer livelihoods, farm
Speaker 1: worker rights, promote strong animal welfare standards, and reduce the
Speaker 1: environmental impact of dairy production. End quote. If you enjoyed
Speaker 1: this episode, please take a moment to rate and review
Speaker 1: the show on Apple Podcasts, YouTube, and Spotify. This episode
Speaker 1: was produced by Oscar Boyd and Meghan Olson. Our theme
Speaker 1: music is composed by Wondering Special thanks to Charlotte Hughes Morgan,
Speaker 1: Kiiran Banerjee, Kalum Baker, Soamersadi, Nour Milan and Sharan chan
Speaker 1: i'm Akshadrati bak Sui