00:00:00 Speaker 1: Quest Left Show is a production of iHeart Radio, Ladies and gentlemen. 00:00:19 Speaker 2: Welcome to a q OLS short, not exactly in all the way Full Epp of Quest Left Supreme. We know my penchant for talking, so I'll say it's just short and then next thing you know, it's four hours later and uh we're still talking. First of all, thank you for all the feedback that we've gotten on the shows in the past year. And there's a particular episode ThunderCats. 00:00:45 Speaker 1: Yo. 00:00:45 Speaker 2: Man, I'm still falling down the anime rabbit hole. By the way, I'm here joined by the one that only opened my ego, So say a load to the people of Mike. 00:00:54 Speaker 3: Hey. 00:00:55 Speaker 2: All right, So basically we were speaking of ThunderCats, Shane his MF Doom Cheam, and you know he praised Hans Solo for designing his jewelry, and yes he misspoke about the creator of the MF Doom mask and uh, Dante Ross and classic Dante Ross. 00:01:20 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 00:01:21 Speaker 2: I felt like I was bringing a home of bad report cards and I was like, wait, what did I do? 00:01:24 Speaker 4: What did I do? 00:01:25 Speaker 2: Yeah, but you know, Dante Ross and others to pointed out, and you know, I'm big on correcting history and speaking of history, So of course I immediately wanted to perhaps do a correction episode. And of course there was no mause or harmon foul in our misinformation. 00:01:46 Speaker 1: And you know, we're living in a time where a. 00:01:47 Speaker 2: Lot of misinformation gets passed on and no one ever corrects it. So yes, even us at the Quest Left Show are big enough to say, hey, are bad. 00:01:56 Speaker 1: We want to make it right. So as a result, we want to bring. 00:01:59 Speaker 2: The actual creator of the do Mask and hopefully in this little mini episode, really really get proper context on an item that we've talked about and heard about for years. First of all, Kiels, good sir, welcome to this short How are you today? 00:02:17 Speaker 4: Thank you man, It's an honor to be here. I'm man, I'm blessed to be alive. I'm grateful. You know what I mean. 00:02:25 Speaker 1: Thank you, thank you, Thank. 00:02:26 Speaker 4: You guys as well as well. 00:02:27 Speaker 1: Absolutely we are. So where should we start, Mike. 00:02:31 Speaker 3: I mean so I think we should start where you just sort of set the table. Thundercap misattributed the creation of the mask, and it's such an iconic design, recognizable everywhere, and as much as you know you remember, I would love to just hear about how that all came together to begin with. 00:02:54 Speaker 4: So first of all, let me just start by saying, yeah, I worked on the Mask, both the early version and the later Gladiator version that most people know. But bigger than that doing was my brother Man. I loved that Cat. I did his first album cover as MF Doom, which is called Operation Doomsday. I designed his logo I did. The next one we did was recreate kmd's Black Bastard. We did the all the special herbs, basically anything on Metal Face Records. And I'm talking about MF Grim's down Fall of v bleas the Monster Island Czars rot Dan's first album. All of that I was blessed to be a part of. And Doom stayed in my house. I later stayed at his crib in Atlanta, and when he was overseas, he knew my daughter, I know his kids. You know what I mean. That's family. So I don't want to argue with anyone about who did what or you know what I mean. There's no real status in that. Yeah, because I'm doing new things. I'm currently and I still work with Jasmine, Doom's widow and the estate, and you know, like we just did this and then the next one. Yes, you know what I'm saying. So these were things that Doom and I planned while he was still here in the physical. We talked about certain color ways and he okay, okay, we're gonna do the blue and orange, and we're gonna do the black and silver, and we're gonna keep it like you know what I mean. And then we had alternative so we discussed rollout for albums and merch and things that are still in the works. So it's bigger than just the mask. But yes, I had a hand in conceiving of his first mask because he knew that he wanted to like a graffiti writer, and he came from a graffiti background and mentality. He wanted to keep a level of anonymity, so you recognize the artwork, you're a fan, but you I don't know the personality behind it. At the time, when Barbito was putting together the album and Bob had never done artwork before. He always had white label, Fondulum was just singles in a white sleep. This was a new thing, a special thing. Around that time, the WU had come out and ghost Face was seen wearing a white stocking mask. A Cantyhope, you know, like you would rob a banquet, and Doom was like, Yo, that's fly. I need something like. 00:05:34 Speaker 3: That because in Doom's early appearances at like New yurekn he covered his face similarly with a stocking correct. 00:05:41 Speaker 4: Yeah, sometimes he wore a bandana, like you know Jesse James robbing a train. Sometimes he wore a stocking mask. But we were actively working to develop something unique to Doom and his persona that would allow him because he liked to go to the bar and sit there and and be a regular dude. And then when he jumped on stage, all of a sudden, people are cheering and they know the lyrics. But he's sitting next to you the whole night and nobody bothers. Now. I don't know if that's because he achieved some level of fame and notoriety as a little kid with KMD, and he had a taste of what that's like, but you know, fame without fortune. I grew up seeing a lot of my hip hop heroes riding on a subway train with me. Right, somebody assumes you're a star. They may be jealous, they might want to try you. They think you have money or jewelry that you don't even have, and now you have to fight every day or people, you know, even as a graffiti writer. And I'm not a famous dude. I'm relatively like under the radar. I don't have a Wikipedia page or anything. I walk down the street and people call me out by my name that I don't know. They're like, yo, I follow you on instan Gram and I'm like, okay, well, what's your name? State your name? You know what I mean, Like, let's start with that. Introduce yourself. It's awkward. So I understand Doom's desire to just be able to create, produce music without being a public figure the target. Yeah, and he's still to this day people want to deify him and speculate on you know, try. I get questions all the time, and I'm just like, yo, man, he was a regular dude. That's my man. Like, you know, he was about feeding his family and all the things that you know, when we deify somebody, we almost separate ourselves. You know what Doom did, You can do? You know what quest love does you And I'm talking to the kids watching out there, mhmm. You can create your own universe and artwork and do all these amazing things and still be a regular guy. 00:08:03 Speaker 1: Man. 00:08:03 Speaker 4: You know, I grew up in hip hop, and a lot of the cats that I knew and worked with, whether through graffiti, m seeing, dancing, they went on to start them. 00:08:16 Speaker 1: Right. 00:08:17 Speaker 4: So I went to high School of Music and Art request I believe he went to a similar school. 00:08:23 Speaker 1: In Philly, Yes, Philly, right. 00:08:25 Speaker 4: So it's a public school, it's poor kids, it's kids from middle class backgrounds, kids from the project, but everyone had a talent and a creativity. 00:08:34 Speaker 1: Was this in New York City, Harlem? 00:08:36 Speaker 4: Yeah, one hundred and thirty seventh at Convent Avenue. 00:08:39 Speaker 1: Oh so it wasn't. 00:08:40 Speaker 2: I wasn't then impression that Laguardio was the only performing arts school in New York. 00:08:45 Speaker 1: There was one in Harlem as well. 00:08:46 Speaker 4: It was originally two sister schools, one called Performing Arts, about which the movie and television show Fame was made with more about stage and dancing, all those kind of things. And then the sister school, which was up on City College campus, was called Music and Art, and we had a fine arts program, and we had an instrumental and vocal music program. So ard Wright went there. The drummer Mackie from the Crow Mags was their scheme. You know, the Kango Crew. My brothers, Dana, Dane, like Rick, they were in class with me. We used to battle every day in the lunch they went there. Damn the fresh three mcs f r s. They were just ones to have records out of that school. Okay, you know a jazz musician's famous old manner of creatives were there. 00:09:39 Speaker 1: I never knew that. 00:09:41 Speaker 4: Bernard Wright went to my high school. What rest in peace. Yeah, he was a little older than me. He was vacating when I was coming in as a freshman because I got there in nineteen eighty eighty to eighty one, Planning got murdered. Okay, So mc searched talks about seeing me battling the Kango Crew at the lunch table and it inspiring him to believe that he could do this thing. Before he was empcy search. He didn't have a name. He was just Michael Baron and okay, he always bigs me up for inspiring him. So I want people to understand that whatever Doom did, he's a regular cat and you can do that too. Don't don't disqualify yourself because in the era I came from we were all just creating. We didn't have social media, we didn't have institutions behind us, money back in corporate nothing. We just made art for art's sake. 00:10:45 Speaker 2: How many versions of that mask were like as far as the evolution of it were there four different stages of that mask or so. 00:10:54 Speaker 4: The first mask which you see in the first three music videos which were shot might buy a cat name Adam Baala Lowe okay, and he went on to be a big documentary filmmaker. You can check him out. I know you're a documentary okay yourself. So he was at NYU film student at the time. I don't know where Doom met him, but you know, Doom had a way of attracting talent and getting cats on board. So they did these first three music videos for free question Mark with featuring Curious, which we shot in in Sunset Park in Brooklyn. That mask was cheap plastic, like one of these halloween things you had when you were a kid, with a rubber band in the back. And I spray painted it with rustolium aluminum spray paint, and I drew the details with a marker and I cut it with a razor blade to the right shape. That one did not last. In fact, at that video shoot in Sunset Part after they cut, he set it on the bench next to him. Everyone was drinking Jack Daniels, right, someone, I'm not gonna mention the name sat on the mask and the things it split across the nose and eyebrow. So Doom brought it back to me to my studio which is in Sunset Park, Brooklyn, and he wanted me to try and repair it, and we began discussing. He was like, yo, I need something solid man. 00:12:31 Speaker 3: Sorry to interrupt that there is a new design. You know, the perception of it was that that one was more directly informed by Doctor Doom. The Doctor Doom mass from Marvel. Is that is that correct? 00:12:45 Speaker 4: Yeah, that was my inspiration. I drew little rivets on it and certain shading. You know. Jack Kirby had a way of very simply illustrating metal and mechanical thing that you know, people still try to get to this day. And it resonated with graffiti riders because it was thick black outlines and it was something you could do with spray paint, you understand. So yeah, there was a lot of that in there on Marvel, Disney please do not come from me. We created own. This was a unique construction. Okay, it's Mikey Mouse, it ain't Mickey got you. So after that one split, we got the idea that you know, we were running around Lower Manhattan. Barbito used to live on fourteenth Street and the shop was on ninth Street, and we shot my favorite Ladies video on Second Avenue. It was all the East Village we were running around. You know, they were the first show's doom ever did. Were at Brownies and the Pyramid, these little l e s alphabet city punk rock clubs. Right. They had a lot of antique stores over there, and curio shops and shops that sold you know. There was an entire place on Houseton where it comes to a triangle near first that was an outdoor you know, it was covered like a tent and they had everything, signs from the subway and basically whatever you could want. So I said, maybe we can find a suit of armor. Somebody's got an actual medieval suit of armor and we could use that that as the basis. While we were running around, we didn't find anything suitable. We passed a place called Forbidden Planet, which is a huge comic book store on Broadway, like twelve or thirteenth when you're going uptown towards Union Square. They got the whole block with a wrap around window. Me and Doom were both comic book heads, you know what I mean, since kids, and a movie had just come out with Russell Crowe called Gladiator, and we had never seen the film. We didn't know anything about it. We didn't know who Russell Crowe was, but we saw the mask. It was like a souvenir of a gladiator helmet which had a big fin on the top and spikes sticking out that metal. You know. It was a full full helmet, and it was wouldn't stand in the window, and I was like, yo, that. So we bagged that up and I took the face plate off, which was hinged right here so it could swing like a motorcycle helmet, you know what I mean, and discarded the rest and we just worked with that metal face plate. And I took it to a cat I knew who did sculpture and had some welding tools, and we made certain modifications so that he could wear it comfortably. And it had the inside of a construction worker's helmet. There's like a fitted plastic you know, like in the back of a fitted cap adjustable, there's this webbing that your construction helmet sits on it, so it doesn't actually sit on your head. It floats, right. So we just took that webing and we put two school holes and we have fixed the first version of the metal mask to that, and Doom rocked with that for a long time. And it also served as a weapon. You could hold it, you know when we start going to bigger venues sobs and bb Kings which is no longer raven They used to metal detect you. They used to search you to get in. 00:16:29 Speaker 1: I was going to ask about airports, but good. 00:16:32 Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly. So he had a case made for the mask and he could listen, I'm performing this is part of my boom boom boom. They would let him in. But if you held that thing by the back of the straps and you caught somebody with it, it not only weighed about seven pounds, it was stainless steel and those two tusks were sharp, right, So I've seen dudes try to jump on stage and Doom catch him with that and boom. It's a rap. So it served many purposes, And there were days when and I don't want to snitch doom. It is no longer here, so he's immune to prosecution. You know. He was a creative dude, but he wasn't soft by any means. Okay, that's a lot of people think nerd rap or something. No, a nerd is a sucker. You can be well read, you can be into many many aspects of culture and history and religion and sciences and mathematics and still not be soft. Okay. So there were times when we had to sneak weapons into the club, and he made a case with a phone. You know, if you purchased the gun, what it would come in a hard case as a microphone is carried that way or an instrument. It has a foam cut out for the mask. So the weapons went under the mask so we could get through the metal detector and say, hey man, it's just it's my costume. Understanding there'd be a little twenty five automatic inside of BB King's Okay. So yeah, the mass served many purposes. What happened it became totally corroded and rusted. 00:18:10 Speaker 3: The second version did it became the metal? 00:18:13 Speaker 4: Yeah, So first he got it re chrome and he purchased a couple more so he had backup versions. He put a ruby right here at the third eye. He also added on the interior a whole lot of different minerals and uh, crystals and things which which held certain power to him. Okay, okay, and herbs and he was very into you know, esoteric sciences and natural you know. Yeah, so he told me the mask was uncomfortable the rock for hours. So he puts some copper in there, and copper has a a healing property. I don't know a lot about these things. Wow, So yeah, he made he made a lot of modifications, as a gold plated one. Okay, there was the silver version which he got re chromed and added a ruby. So there've probably been at least four versions of the metal mask, which was based on Gladiator. It was okay mask, but the original mask I still have the We attempted to repair it, but it's it's broken. But that's that's the first dum Masking to me, was a superior visual. Maybe it wasn't as thirty, but it is amazing, you know what I mean. So the funny thing now, they just made a reboot of Gladiator, the movie they made A part two and all the younger kids who don't remember were like, yo, he's wearing a. 00:20:09 Speaker 1: Doom right now. 00:20:12 Speaker 4: Stole that mask from MF Doom. And I'm thinking, like jay Z said he could make a Yankee hat more famous than a Yankee cab, right, Yeah, we made that mask more popular than a big fucking budget Hollywood studio film with stars, and nobody remembers that bullshit. 00:20:30 Speaker 2: Well alog culture, man, it's the absolute like genius marketing device. It's so weird because when I first started going to Fat Beats and they were trying to give me, They're like, no, man, zebha VX has a new character out and this was and I was like, why would he? Like I came from the school of like, you know, a big giant kmdfen and was wondering, like, why is this shrouded in mystery? 00:20:58 Speaker 1: Like show us your face and whatnot? I do have to ask. 00:21:02 Speaker 2: So I believe I was witnessed once to a Doom show that wasn't a Doom show. Air quotes the specs on that look so unique and specific as a one off art piece, Howard Katz getting and I'm talking about the occasional Doom impostures that were out there. 00:21:26 Speaker 4: So what I know is that Doom had legal issues that didn't allow him to travel. 00:21:31 Speaker 1: The travel I get it. 00:21:33 Speaker 4: Okay, he had his man who was this basically his same physical stature, right. 00:21:41 Speaker 5: Gotcha, and taught him how to Millie Vanilli this shit so that he could appear with the mask on and get that money. 00:21:52 Speaker 2: Because that's almost that's almost as legendary as within him just being M F. 00:21:58 Speaker 4: Doom. 00:21:58 Speaker 1: But also, you know, right, but. 00:22:01 Speaker 4: We've all gone to shows where half the Wu Tang didn't show up, or you know, Lauren Hill was seven hours late. So he just found a way to circumvent that. If the powers that be didn't want to let him into the country, he'd send this man and still get that paycheck and two shows on the same night, and the fans are happy. 00:22:29 Speaker 2: I was at a couple of and we was not happy. 00:22:34 Speaker 3: But I do so I certainly understand, though, I certainly. 00:22:37 Speaker 4: When I was a kid. When I was a kid, I used to go to the Latin Quarters and cats had singles out and you never knew what they look like, right video, right, So other dudes would show up it's your money and promote themselves as being you and I've seen it. 00:22:59 Speaker 2: Yeah, I just did a day Last solo episode in which Macio shares a story about dealing with the fake, the fake and the fake BDP. 00:23:14 Speaker 1: So no, I know that can happen. 00:23:16 Speaker 4: My man at the time, and we're talking eighty six. My running partner, he was from Brooklyn, but he was cool. Keith's cousin right. His name was Roman Geo, so he had a lot of game and he got us into Club Free, didn't I wasn't even aware he had told Mike Goldberg, who owned the Latin Quarters, that I was Mike D from the Beastie Boys, so that we could get in free. I didn't even know he had done this. Now in eighty six, the Beastis have the biggest record on the planet, you understand. You know this is why I'm so protective today of my IP because I come from a time when we didn't have any podcasts, videos, books, There. 00:24:03 Speaker 3: Were no no way to tell y'all story. Really, there were. 00:24:06 Speaker 4: No institutions teaching hip hop. We had to police ourselves. I'm very grateful for all all the people that jumped into comments and it's like, nah, that was Keio because your name was all you had, right, especially as a graffiti writer. So we could parody Marvel comics or the Kung Fu flicks or even real life historical figure. You could claim to be Frank Nitti or Al Capone, but you couldn't say you were rock him, right, you understand. So in graffiti we would take Mickey Mouse and redraw him and give him a blunt and a baseball hat or whatever, a gold chain, and that was fly. We could bite off of the Disney Corporation or comedy lettering from the Serial box or comic or Ajax, right, but I could and copy lettering from Dondie. Somebody would call me out on it. They say, yo, you bit that? Now that seems to go out the window. There's actually two rock Kims. Now there's two No, Yes, there's a rock Kim who is a reggaetone performer. 00:25:20 Speaker 1: Oh google, Yeah. 00:25:22 Speaker 4: There's two Nazas. There's Little Nas and Big Nas. They're both making fucking records at the same time. In my day, that would have gone to blows and possibly you know, even worse. You would fight to defend your name. Yeah, So when somebody comes on and says they created the mask, I immediately go to a place of ego and pride that I is instilled in me from a kid we battle, you know what I mean. 00:25:55 Speaker 3: That's perfectly understandable. 00:25:56 Speaker 4: Too, But I'm trying to be a little more humble and adult about life these days. 00:26:02 Speaker 2: We just wanted to give your flowers, man, and you know, definitely correct history and let our let our listeners out there. 00:26:08 Speaker 4: Know because AI is a dangerous thing now. It just skims whatever the is on the internet. So if I google who made the doom Mask, They're gonna find your podcast and it'll say Hancholo created the doom Mask. 00:26:23 Speaker 2: Right, I'm like, Okay, I doubt that's gonna happen now because the right way we got dealt. 00:26:31 Speaker 4: But listen, people don't understand how we grew up. Fat Joe has a podcast now and all I see is people calling a cap and he no way you did these things right now. I happen to know Fat Joe was. You know, they stuck up my man, Him and Brim jumped out the van with a Soto shotgun and took their spray paint. This is one Joe had records out. He was dudes for spray paint. So when he tells the story. I believe him. I know now there's no beef anymore. I love Tad's crew by OBG Terror Squad. Those are my people, But back then they were dangerous motherfuckers. 00:27:12 Speaker 1: Bro. 00:27:13 Speaker 4: But when I go to tell my own life story, it sounds crazy that we could leave the house with thirty five cents, hop the Turnstown steal spray, paint, rack up some forty ounces, rub somebody for their weed coming out of the weed spot on myrtle app and then wind up the end of the night at the World or the Tunnel, partying with Grace Jones and Madonald And that was all in one day. I battled, you know, I tell people will Yo, I battle Big Daddy Kane in Albi Square Mall while Biz was doing the beat Box before he had records, and they go, yeah, right, sure you did. 00:27:52 Speaker 1: I believe you. 00:27:53 Speaker 4: And I battled Napoleon it fucking water because we didn't have a camera the film everything. 00:28:01 Speaker 3: I did want to ask you one more question. I know you mentioned for Doom as a person as an artist, the importance of the mask is him being able to sort of separate his identity as a regular person versus who he is on stage. But also think of this, right, Like I started listening to Doom when I was seventeen. I got a seventeen year old son now, and the only artist that I rock with he rock with is Doom, you know what I'm saying. So in a sense, my grandson, my grandson is five and loves Doming. 00:28:30 Speaker 4: I didn't put him on and so he found out. 00:28:34 Speaker 3: Doom is one of those few artists that is bigger than life, and I do feel like the mask is an important part of that. So I'm curious, what do you think is the importance of the mask to Doom's legacy. 00:28:47 Speaker 4: You have to understand the current popular climate at that time was a lot of pretty boys and really slick, high budget videos, dude stancing with their shirt off and Doom to him it was like, oh, that's not what this is about. It's about wreck, right, how nice you are, how nasty you are with the skills. So there were dudes who looked a certain way who maybe weren't as skillful. You know the story of Martha wash the big woman who sang right. Because she was a large sized woman, they put models to lip sync for her in the video, so that was happening in hip hop. It became more about your appearance than your skills. And again, Doom is old enough, even though he was far younger than I. He remembers an era when you didn't know what you'd hear the record, you didn't know what cats looked like. It didn't happen. So he wanted to be judged on his creative skills, not what he looked like. But honestly, and he says it himself, he wasn't a Tom Cruise looking dude. He was not a movie star handsome kind of cat, and he made no bones about that. Girls loved him. He was charming. He had a way to talk to females that blew my mind. But you know, he says it. A rather ugly brother would flows this gorgeous so that he told you why he wears a mask. People want to make it something it isn't. It's real simple, you know what I mean. It's about the creativity, about being allowed to be creative, because you got to remember, the image on his KMD album cover is the excuse that they used to cancel him and his younger brother Rest in Peace of Robin because of what it looked like. Without ever listening to that, so he wanted to take that out. Yo, I might be a black dude, the Spanish dude, I might be Chinese under this mask. I don't fucking matter. 00:30:56 Speaker 3: I'm so glad we was able to have you in hear from you directly, to hear these stories. I mean, you know what I'm saying, like do It means a lot to me, It means a lot to us, And it's dope to meet you having contributed such an iconic piece of like hip hop art to the world that I feel like is gonna outlive all of us. 00:31:17 Speaker 4: May I shout out. What I'm working on right now is before we rap. Absolutely So we're doing the Team one documentary right now. Stay tuned for that. We're nice, Starlene and Redman is in there. Everybody, everybody is. 00:31:33 Speaker 1: In of course. The show is a production of iHeart Radio.