1 00:00:05,160 --> 00:00:08,600 Speaker 1: Welcome back to Carol Marca Wich Show on iHeartRadio. My 2 00:00:08,680 --> 00:00:11,800 Speaker 1: guest today is Jeffrey Tunger. Jeffrey is president of the 3 00:00:11,800 --> 00:00:15,120 Speaker 1: Brownstone Institute and the author of the new book Spirits 4 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:15,840 Speaker 1: of America. 5 00:00:16,120 --> 00:00:17,560 Speaker 2: So nice to have you on, Jeffrey. 6 00:00:17,840 --> 00:00:19,840 Speaker 3: It's nice for you to have me on. Thank you. 7 00:00:20,720 --> 00:00:23,280 Speaker 1: Well. I got to know your work during COVID and 8 00:00:23,520 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: I associate you pretty closely with healthcare policy and that 9 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,000 Speaker 1: kind of thing. But Spirits of America isn't a book 10 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:32,840 Speaker 1: about healthcare policy, is that right? 11 00:00:33,640 --> 00:00:37,319 Speaker 3: That's right. I went in a completely different direction. I'm 12 00:00:37,320 --> 00:00:41,159 Speaker 3: at like twenty books now. Yeah, and all my of 13 00:00:41,200 --> 00:00:43,040 Speaker 3: the books, I don't care about any of them. Actually, 14 00:00:43,040 --> 00:00:46,000 Speaker 3: they're all kind of silly and retrospect. I mean, some 15 00:00:46,080 --> 00:00:48,599 Speaker 3: of them are flat out wrong, some of very interesting, 16 00:00:48,840 --> 00:00:51,559 Speaker 3: some are yeah, yeah, I mean, but some are just, 17 00:00:51,680 --> 00:00:55,320 Speaker 3: you know, just wrong. I was a techno utopian, for example. 18 00:00:55,480 --> 00:00:57,800 Speaker 3: I mean, I'll just admit it. I fell for the 19 00:00:57,840 --> 00:01:00,960 Speaker 3: whole bit. You know, in the early two thousand oh 20 00:01:01,120 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 3: we're going to get digital media's and emancipate us all 21 00:01:04,120 --> 00:01:07,640 Speaker 3: from the physical world, and then you know, all humanity 22 00:01:07,680 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 3: will be free. 23 00:01:09,560 --> 00:01:10,560 Speaker 2: No, that didn't happen. 24 00:01:11,520 --> 00:01:14,199 Speaker 3: It work out the way I expect it. I yeah, 25 00:01:14,240 --> 00:01:17,319 Speaker 3: I feel a lot of humility for having been terribly 26 00:01:17,360 --> 00:01:20,640 Speaker 3: wrong on that. There's two books in particular that are terrible. 27 00:01:20,680 --> 00:01:23,080 Speaker 3: One is called It's a Jetson World. I mean that's 28 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:25,600 Speaker 3: a better of the two. It's a Jetsons World is 29 00:01:25,640 --> 00:01:30,080 Speaker 3: a decent book. For example, I think I was a 30 00:01:30,120 --> 00:01:33,639 Speaker 3: little more sober when I wrote that, like if. 31 00:01:33,480 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: You watched it, and more drunken for the other one. 32 00:01:37,080 --> 00:01:41,640 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean literally sober. But if you watch the 33 00:01:41,840 --> 00:01:44,240 Speaker 3: show the Jetsons, one of the things that's interesting about 34 00:01:44,319 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 3: is they have a lot of cool new gizmos and tools, 35 00:01:47,800 --> 00:01:50,400 Speaker 3: but it's still a bourgeois family and they still face 36 00:01:50,440 --> 00:01:52,760 Speaker 3: all the normal problems of human life. And that was 37 00:01:52,800 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 3: the theme of that book. So gap good check. My 38 00:01:56,360 --> 00:01:59,120 Speaker 3: next book was the crazy one. It's called A Beautiful Anarchy. 39 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:02,400 Speaker 3: That's when I went chapter by chapter celebrating every social 40 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:08,040 Speaker 3: media platform, you know, every new watchdoodle out there. And 41 00:02:08,240 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: I had this sort of whiggish view as my dog 42 00:02:11,240 --> 00:02:14,360 Speaker 3: bothering the curtains there of my apology, I had this 43 00:02:14,440 --> 00:02:16,680 Speaker 3: whiggish view of humanity that you know, we had just 44 00:02:17,000 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 3: settled onto a new course of progress that was going 45 00:02:21,360 --> 00:02:24,480 Speaker 3: to be infinite, and we're going to improve everything and 46 00:02:24,520 --> 00:02:26,680 Speaker 3: get rid of all the barriers and problems of the 47 00:02:26,720 --> 00:02:31,800 Speaker 3: past through technological means. And this is an inevitable trajectory upwards, 48 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:37,040 Speaker 3: you know, to the light and the very view that that, 49 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:39,639 Speaker 3: you know, against which my mentor warned me, who is 50 00:02:39,720 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 3: Murray Rothbarty said, you know, they believe this nonsense in 51 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:44,880 Speaker 3: the eighteen eighties and eighteen nineties, right, and that didn't 52 00:02:44,919 --> 00:02:48,919 Speaker 3: prepare them for the catastrophe of the Great War. They 53 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,600 Speaker 3: just forgot about, you know, basic principles of human nature 54 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:52,320 Speaker 3: and that sort of thing. 55 00:02:53,480 --> 00:02:55,560 Speaker 2: Well, do you think that's what happened here. 56 00:02:55,440 --> 00:02:59,080 Speaker 3: Too, Well, it certainly happened to me, you know. I 57 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:03,360 Speaker 3: mean I just I didn't I don't know. Something. There 58 00:03:03,440 --> 00:03:05,800 Speaker 3: was a there was a period where there was like 59 00:03:05,880 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 3: a delusional sort of attachment to the glories of digital 60 00:03:10,120 --> 00:03:13,600 Speaker 3: life and how it's can fix everything, and it took 61 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 3: lockdowns to break break me of that and reality. Yeah. 62 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:20,080 Speaker 2: Yeah, what was it about lockdowns that broke that? 63 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: Well, I think it was when I saw my friends 64 00:03:28,040 --> 00:03:31,200 Speaker 3: of mine who are sort of ideological, but I guess 65 00:03:31,240 --> 00:03:34,320 Speaker 3: allies used to say, well, hey, if it weren't for 66 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 3: laptops and digital media and cell phones and all the 67 00:03:38,280 --> 00:03:39,960 Speaker 3: rest of this kind of stuff, we would not have 68 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:45,160 Speaker 3: been able to have the capacity to stay home stay 69 00:03:45,160 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 3: safe from the virus. And I thought, yeah, that's that's 70 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:51,400 Speaker 3: a weird thing to say. 71 00:03:52,080 --> 00:03:55,200 Speaker 1: Well, but to be fair, right, like I you know, 72 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: I was super anti lockdowns with you pretty early on. 73 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,160 Speaker 1: But you know, in March twenty twenty, I wrote a 74 00:04:02,160 --> 00:04:05,960 Speaker 1: column celebrating screens. Also, it kept us connected in a 75 00:04:06,040 --> 00:04:07,840 Speaker 1: crazy time where we wait, wait. 76 00:04:07,760 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 2: We didn't know what was going to happen. Look. 77 00:04:10,440 --> 00:04:13,640 Speaker 1: By by early April, I'm like, you know, this all 78 00:04:13,680 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: needs to end. And I wouldn't go to people's zoom 79 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: birthday parties and I didn't. 80 00:04:18,800 --> 00:04:19,760 Speaker 2: Do any of that. 81 00:04:20,839 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: But we did have a moment where we couldn't be together. Foolishly, yes, 82 00:04:26,800 --> 00:04:29,000 Speaker 1: but and we were kept together with screens. 83 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:29,920 Speaker 2: Why is that so bad? 84 00:04:30,320 --> 00:04:33,640 Speaker 3: I grant you everything you just said, but what I 85 00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 3: don't like is the idea that we would abuse this 86 00:04:36,040 --> 00:04:39,080 Speaker 3: technology and safety. Now we can dismantle society because we 87 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 3: enable it. The other thing that troubled me very much 88 00:04:43,960 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 3: was the way in which these digital companies participated with 89 00:04:48,320 --> 00:04:53,440 Speaker 3: the lockdown elites to lock everybody down to drive people 90 00:04:53,440 --> 00:04:56,200 Speaker 3: to the online schooling platforms. So there's no question this 91 00:04:56,240 --> 00:04:58,280 Speaker 3: is true. I mean, like one of the major propagandas 92 00:04:58,279 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 3: for lockdowns was the owner of an line teaching platform, 93 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 3: so that was early on, and so you know, there's 94 00:05:07,120 --> 00:05:10,160 Speaker 3: that problem. The other thing is something that was very 95 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 3: revealing about this period is for me intellectually speaking, was 96 00:05:14,520 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 3: the way in which it revealed huge class differences in 97 00:05:18,320 --> 00:05:20,680 Speaker 3: people's experiences. I mean, there were the. 98 00:05:20,680 --> 00:05:23,800 Speaker 2: Laptop class, and there was the pajama class. 99 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:26,960 Speaker 3: Yeah. Yeah, and that was like what a third of 100 00:05:26,960 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 3: the country or something like that. Then you had the 101 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:31,560 Speaker 3: other two thirds. I had to continue to treat the 102 00:05:31,600 --> 00:05:35,640 Speaker 3: sick and grow the vegetables and slaughter the cows and 103 00:05:36,360 --> 00:05:40,200 Speaker 3: could drive them to the grocery stores and then deliver them. Yeah, 104 00:05:40,880 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 3: deliver them, my god. And it was really there was 105 00:05:44,040 --> 00:05:48,279 Speaker 3: moments in there. And by the way, my intellectual tradition 106 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:52,360 Speaker 3: kind of forbid me for thinking about class stratificational class 107 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:55,719 Speaker 3: differences or class antagonism or class conflict. It's like I 108 00:05:55,720 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 3: always thought that that was sort of Marxist, but I watched, 109 00:06:00,040 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 3: you know, I would read the New York Times and 110 00:06:01,800 --> 00:06:05,600 Speaker 3: they would say, well, putting in your zip could find 111 00:06:05,600 --> 00:06:08,760 Speaker 3: out what you should do. And then you put in 112 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:11,720 Speaker 3: your zip code and said, oh, clearly you need to 113 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:16,240 Speaker 3: stay home and get your groceries delivered to you by 114 00:06:16,320 --> 00:06:19,280 Speaker 3: whom I mean, by whom I mean not readers of 115 00:06:19,320 --> 00:06:23,240 Speaker 3: the New York Times, clearly, and this blindness that I 116 00:06:23,320 --> 00:06:27,839 Speaker 3: saw among the media elite towards the way regular people 117 00:06:28,360 --> 00:06:31,120 Speaker 3: were experiencing life. The other thing that was strange to 118 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:34,160 Speaker 3: me was this division of essential and unessential, which was 119 00:06:34,200 --> 00:06:37,760 Speaker 3: a complicated division that came from the Department of Film 120 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 3: and Security. But the people who were not essential were 121 00:06:42,800 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 3: things like, okay, the people who give you your Manny's and petties, 122 00:06:48,320 --> 00:06:54,720 Speaker 3: or preachers or artists playing you know, or bartenders. I mean, 123 00:06:55,120 --> 00:06:58,520 Speaker 3: this was the people that were just sort of thrown out. 124 00:06:58,640 --> 00:07:02,039 Speaker 3: They were just like, get you know, we don't need you. 125 00:07:02,160 --> 00:07:04,680 Speaker 3: We've got a pandemic, we don't care what happens to you. 126 00:07:04,960 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 3: Oh you're sad, here's some money. I mean that literally happened. 127 00:07:09,120 --> 00:07:12,600 Speaker 3: And there was this weird blindness of the entire period 128 00:07:12,680 --> 00:07:18,200 Speaker 3: towards this extreme class antagonisms that had developed, and people 129 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:20,600 Speaker 3: used to say this to me. I remember I was 130 00:07:20,880 --> 00:07:24,120 Speaker 3: very good friends with the chef once who was serving 131 00:07:24,400 --> 00:07:28,720 Speaker 3: a thing that I was doing, and he just said, offhanded, 132 00:07:28,760 --> 00:07:31,120 Speaker 3: he goes, well, this, this whole this whole thing is 133 00:07:31,120 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 3: not a big deal for you because you want those 134 00:07:32,720 --> 00:07:37,440 Speaker 3: people who works on the computer, right, And I was 135 00:07:37,480 --> 00:07:39,920 Speaker 3: shocked when he said that. I thought, you know, you 136 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:45,560 Speaker 3: really do think of me and you as having completely 137 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:47,720 Speaker 3: different life experiences. And I was trying to connect with 138 00:07:47,800 --> 00:07:50,360 Speaker 3: him like, oh, yeah, how is that, you know, but 139 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,160 Speaker 3: he wasn't having it, and I realized I needed to 140 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:58,640 Speaker 3: upgrade my sense of things right. So yeah, So Carol, 141 00:07:58,760 --> 00:08:02,400 Speaker 3: So what happened to me with this latest book? As 142 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:06,760 Speaker 3: I went back and read some earlier works on American 143 00:08:06,840 --> 00:08:11,000 Speaker 3: history trying to understand exactly how we got here, not 144 00:08:11,720 --> 00:08:15,800 Speaker 3: to the digital age, but everything that preceded it, the 145 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:22,360 Speaker 3: eighteenth century, nineteenth century history, and wrote a short reflection 146 00:08:23,080 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 3: on all these virtues, you know, with its work or 147 00:08:25,400 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: frugality or at time management, and and just going through 148 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:36,040 Speaker 3: this discipline of sort of rethinking the practicalities of life 149 00:08:36,040 --> 00:08:38,800 Speaker 3: at their fundamental level revealed some things to me that 150 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 3: I had never seen before, and I just couldn't wait 151 00:08:43,559 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 3: to convey them to other people. The article the book 152 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 3: has written in very simple language on purpose. I don't 153 00:08:51,160 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 3: reference Schumper and smaller and smaller you know, whatever you 154 00:08:56,840 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 3: know or Chopenauer like, there's nothing like that in here. 155 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:02,720 Speaker 2: Was the biggest revelation to you. 156 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:06,560 Speaker 3: My biggest revelation is the way in which our culture 157 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:12,360 Speaker 3: has instructed us to kind of regret anything that is 158 00:09:12,559 --> 00:09:17,800 Speaker 3: tedious or problematic or troubling or routine. Uh, and that's 159 00:09:18,080 --> 00:09:22,520 Speaker 3: kind of everything, you know. So, and they do this 160 00:09:22,600 --> 00:09:27,120 Speaker 3: to sell us products, ever better products. What is routine? 161 00:09:27,160 --> 00:09:30,440 Speaker 3: What is tedious? What is broken that you have to 162 00:09:30,440 --> 00:09:32,480 Speaker 3: fix in your life? Those are all the things we 163 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:36,480 Speaker 3: don't We're we're strange people. We've come to regret them. 164 00:09:36,480 --> 00:09:40,080 Speaker 3: We think that that our whole object of life is 165 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,920 Speaker 3: to save time from the thing we're doing so that 166 00:09:42,960 --> 00:09:44,960 Speaker 3: we can go on to do somebody else that we 167 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: also regret, and try to speed up so that we 168 00:09:47,440 --> 00:09:50,320 Speaker 3: can go on to the next thing which we also regret. Like, 169 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,440 Speaker 3: you can't live this way. And I wrote a chapter 170 00:09:53,520 --> 00:09:57,840 Speaker 3: on here that I think it was originally called the 171 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 3: Spirit of is called be like a Farmer, but I 172 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:05,000 Speaker 3: think I changed to chapter title to the Spirit of Forbearance. 173 00:10:05,800 --> 00:10:08,040 Speaker 3: And it was a reflection on a time when I 174 00:10:08,080 --> 00:10:10,440 Speaker 3: was about twenty years old. A good friend of mine 175 00:10:10,480 --> 00:10:14,760 Speaker 3: took me to his farm and I just had me 176 00:10:14,840 --> 00:10:17,880 Speaker 3: go through it one day of daily routines with the 177 00:10:17,920 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 3: farmer and his family. And the thing that struck me 178 00:10:21,760 --> 00:10:27,120 Speaker 3: most about that experience was the absence of frustration on 179 00:10:27,200 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 3: the part of everyone for everything. 180 00:10:30,240 --> 00:10:32,080 Speaker 1: If the fence, you weren't trying to move on to 181 00:10:32,120 --> 00:10:34,520 Speaker 1: the next thing, because you were focused on what you're. 182 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,360 Speaker 3: Doing, dedicated to their work, and saw their mission in 183 00:10:38,440 --> 00:10:43,360 Speaker 3: life as fixing things. Like they didn't get angry when 184 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:46,319 Speaker 3: the glass would fall from the from the cabinet to 185 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:48,199 Speaker 3: the floor. They would just simply go, oh, well, now 186 00:10:48,280 --> 00:10:51,080 Speaker 3: there's something I have to clean up. Or when they 187 00:10:51,120 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 3: go out to the fence and see the fences broken 188 00:10:53,200 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: because the cow hit it, right, you fix the fence. 189 00:10:58,320 --> 00:11:00,520 Speaker 3: And if the nail doesn't if the wood doesn't fit, 190 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:02,040 Speaker 3: then you cut a new piece of wood. If the 191 00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:04,720 Speaker 3: wood cutting machine is broken because it needs a new screw, 192 00:11:04,840 --> 00:11:06,800 Speaker 3: then you try to figure out. And this is what 193 00:11:06,840 --> 00:11:12,080 Speaker 3: you do. You do You do it without without harry, 194 00:11:12,400 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 3: without without frustration, without anger. You just come to fall 195 00:11:18,800 --> 00:11:23,920 Speaker 3: in love with the routine and discipline of improving the 196 00:11:23,920 --> 00:11:26,719 Speaker 3: world a little bit and every way you possibly can. 197 00:11:27,080 --> 00:11:30,440 Speaker 3: And I realized this is completely different outlook from our 198 00:11:30,720 --> 00:11:34,600 Speaker 3: dopamine obsessed culture, where we, you know, our whole lives 199 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:37,640 Speaker 3: consist of just scrolling and looking for the next hit, 200 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:42,760 Speaker 3: the next sort of news, narcotic or whatever await. This 201 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:46,000 Speaker 3: is very bad for us spiritually, and it causes us 202 00:11:46,000 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 3: not to grow our own lives and our own communities 203 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:51,800 Speaker 3: and our and our society. And so this is what 204 00:11:52,840 --> 00:11:56,000 Speaker 3: this shocked me, Carol. This was so shocking when I 205 00:11:56,040 --> 00:12:01,480 Speaker 3: realized this that it changed everything about my day. You're 206 00:12:01,480 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 3: pretty much instantly. 207 00:12:03,600 --> 00:12:06,280 Speaker 2: So you got off line, you drop. 208 00:12:06,120 --> 00:12:10,280 Speaker 3: The X that's going too far. My point is that 209 00:12:10,320 --> 00:12:12,600 Speaker 3: I got up in the morning and I like to 210 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,079 Speaker 3: do floor exercises, but I usually rested them, like oh 211 00:12:15,080 --> 00:12:17,840 Speaker 3: it's a stupid as waste. Yeah. Well now I kind 212 00:12:17,840 --> 00:12:19,880 Speaker 3: of like embraced it and said, Okay, this is what 213 00:12:19,960 --> 00:12:21,920 Speaker 3: I'm going to do, and now it's time to make 214 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:23,920 Speaker 3: up the bed. I'm going to do a really good 215 00:12:23,960 --> 00:12:25,440 Speaker 3: job and I'm not going to regret. I'm not going 216 00:12:25,440 --> 00:12:26,920 Speaker 3: to rush it and go. I can't wait to get 217 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,439 Speaker 3: to the things they say no, I'm going to embrace 218 00:12:29,559 --> 00:12:32,280 Speaker 3: what the moment, be aware of what's around me, and 219 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:36,400 Speaker 3: be very precise. Maybe I hope this doesn't sound dumb 220 00:12:36,400 --> 00:12:40,280 Speaker 3: to you. Or when you make breakfast, Yeah, everybody loves 221 00:12:40,320 --> 00:12:42,320 Speaker 3: eating their breakfast. They don't like cleaning up. Okay, so 222 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:44,559 Speaker 3: now you have to like cleaning as much as you 223 00:12:44,720 --> 00:12:47,960 Speaker 3: like eating. Now you spend time in the kitchen, make 224 00:12:48,000 --> 00:12:51,880 Speaker 3: sure the kitchen is absolutely immaculate, and you're done and 225 00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:57,880 Speaker 3: closed after breakfast, and so then you start to love 226 00:12:58,040 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 3: every moment of life. It's not us slowing down. It's 227 00:13:02,160 --> 00:13:06,000 Speaker 3: a matter of adopting a new attitude towards the normal 228 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:11,079 Speaker 3: pacing of life. And the weird thing is, after doing 229 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:17,360 Speaker 3: this for one day, I found myself happier. Maybe maybe 230 00:13:17,360 --> 00:13:21,280 Speaker 3: that sounds extreme, but I think before then I had 231 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 3: culturated myself maybe just absorbed it from around me to 232 00:13:25,400 --> 00:13:28,760 Speaker 3: kind of regret everything that I was doing because it 233 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:30,439 Speaker 3: was taking time away from the next thing I was 234 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:32,240 Speaker 3: supposed to be doing, you know what I mean? 235 00:13:32,600 --> 00:13:36,439 Speaker 2: And this is for just a simpler existence. Is this 236 00:13:36,559 --> 00:13:37,040 Speaker 2: part of it? 237 00:13:37,400 --> 00:13:41,360 Speaker 3: Or was longing? I was longing to fall in love 238 00:13:41,480 --> 00:13:46,679 Speaker 3: again with with with routine, with what I actually do 239 00:13:47,400 --> 00:13:53,320 Speaker 3: you know, to find happiness and satisfaction out of small achievements. 240 00:13:53,520 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 3: Like people don't think of cleaning the bathroom as and achievement, 241 00:13:57,600 --> 00:14:02,640 Speaker 3: but it is a great thing. You should take a 242 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 3: great pride in it, or walking the all grow any 243 00:14:05,760 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: kind of boring thing you have to do. I mean, 244 00:14:08,480 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 3: think about it, Carol, how much in our life consists 245 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 3: of doing things that you don't like doing that. That's 246 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,520 Speaker 3: not a good way to go. What if you just 247 00:14:18,840 --> 00:14:23,320 Speaker 3: changed and you just said, Okay, now I'm gonna I'm 248 00:14:23,320 --> 00:14:26,600 Speaker 3: going to express gratitude for the opportunity to be given 249 00:14:26,640 --> 00:14:29,960 Speaker 3: these hands, given this energy, given this time to do 250 00:14:30,040 --> 00:14:31,080 Speaker 3: what needs to be done. 251 00:14:31,640 --> 00:14:33,880 Speaker 2: And Pirds of America comes from this. 252 00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,960 Speaker 3: Yes, the entire book is written around this theme. Right, 253 00:14:38,120 --> 00:14:42,080 Speaker 3: So it's engaging with this is this book is like 254 00:14:42,120 --> 00:14:46,720 Speaker 3: a reversal of my book called Beautiful Anarchy. It's a 255 00:14:46,800 --> 00:14:51,720 Speaker 3: celebration of the physical you know, of of of nature, 256 00:14:52,560 --> 00:14:59,560 Speaker 3: of of of of bakers, of butchers, of loving this 257 00:15:00,040 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 3: small achievements in life, having a greater appreciation for the 258 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:08,760 Speaker 3: world around you, all these things. It's yeah, so in 259 00:15:08,800 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 3: that way, it is a reversal. Now you asked specifically, 260 00:15:11,360 --> 00:15:13,560 Speaker 3: do I spend last time on digitally, Well, my job 261 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 3: is it's online. That's sort of thing. But I have 262 00:15:17,040 --> 00:15:20,320 Speaker 3: to tell you I'm getting more disciplined about it, so 263 00:15:20,360 --> 00:15:22,520 Speaker 3: that you know, when the evening time comes and the 264 00:15:22,560 --> 00:15:25,840 Speaker 3: cocktail hits, you know, you just don't spend the rest 265 00:15:25,880 --> 00:15:29,720 Speaker 3: of the night going like this, scroll scroll, what what 266 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,960 Speaker 3: is this? What are you actually learning? But on the 267 00:15:31,960 --> 00:15:34,000 Speaker 3: other hand, if you shut down and pick up that 268 00:15:34,080 --> 00:15:37,560 Speaker 3: book that you've been minding to read for years but 269 00:15:37,760 --> 00:15:41,520 Speaker 3: never have started on page one, and I tell you 270 00:15:41,640 --> 00:15:46,360 Speaker 3: the intellectual experience of that we shut down everything and 271 00:15:46,560 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 3: just have words in your hand and a book, there's 272 00:15:49,400 --> 00:15:52,880 Speaker 3: something magical that it burns into your brain in a 273 00:15:52,920 --> 00:15:56,720 Speaker 3: way that all the posts on XT just fly by. 274 00:15:57,360 --> 00:16:01,280 Speaker 3: It's a different experience that you merge from that experience, 275 00:16:02,320 --> 00:16:06,400 Speaker 3: more insightful, more aera diite, more scrupulous as a thinker, 276 00:16:06,720 --> 00:16:11,400 Speaker 3: a better observer. You develop and cultivate these virtues that 277 00:16:11,440 --> 00:16:14,080 Speaker 3: I talked about in the book, these habits, these more as, 278 00:16:14,160 --> 00:16:19,160 Speaker 3: these the routines that built American life. And so that 279 00:16:19,160 --> 00:16:21,320 Speaker 3: that was the intuition that led me to write the book. 280 00:16:21,880 --> 00:16:25,160 Speaker 3: I have to tell you my other books I published, 281 00:16:25,160 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 3: I didn't care what anybody thought. It's like a screw 282 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:30,800 Speaker 3: you is my book, this one. I find myself deeply 283 00:16:30,920 --> 00:16:33,000 Speaker 3: interested in what people's. 284 00:16:32,600 --> 00:16:37,040 Speaker 2: Experiences with reviews. 285 00:16:37,320 --> 00:16:41,080 Speaker 3: I want I want to hear what people read into 286 00:16:41,120 --> 00:16:44,280 Speaker 3: the book, because this was the most I would say 287 00:16:45,360 --> 00:16:51,320 Speaker 3: honest book. I dug really deeply to tell every everything 288 00:16:51,400 --> 00:16:54,480 Speaker 3: I knew about what I believe to be true in 289 00:16:54,520 --> 00:16:57,440 Speaker 3: a lot of what I've learned over the lockdown period 290 00:16:57,440 --> 00:17:01,520 Speaker 3: and what's followed. So it's it's it's very sincere, and 291 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:05,160 Speaker 3: I took away. There's no footnotes. There's not even index. 292 00:17:06,840 --> 00:17:10,080 Speaker 3: That was a decision I made too, which is unbelievable. 293 00:17:10,520 --> 00:17:13,240 Speaker 3: I would have done that, but no index, no footnotes, 294 00:17:13,640 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 3: no fancy pants references to all the philosopher's economists, nothing 295 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:26,760 Speaker 3: like that. It's gritty, it's tactles, it's I hope it's 296 00:17:26,800 --> 00:17:29,480 Speaker 3: real life. I honestly think, Carol, and I'm not sure. 297 00:17:29,640 --> 00:17:32,480 Speaker 3: Maybe I forecasting broadcasting now from my own experience for 298 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:35,360 Speaker 3: the rest of the world, but I think that the culture, 299 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,840 Speaker 3: our world today and our culture many most people I 300 00:17:37,880 --> 00:17:43,199 Speaker 3: know have a problem dealing with real life. There's you know, 301 00:17:43,560 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 3: I mean, just like normal life things. 302 00:17:46,000 --> 00:17:47,520 Speaker 2: Absolutely I don't like it. 303 00:17:47,600 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: More coming up with Jeffrey Tucker. But first, can you 304 00:17:50,840 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 4: believe since nineteen thirteen, the dollar has lost ninety six 305 00:17:54,920 --> 00:17:58,160 Speaker 4: percent of its purchasing power and it's still losing value, 306 00:17:58,400 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 4: down ten point eight percent this year. To ask yourself, 307 00:18:02,640 --> 00:18:06,000 Speaker 4: what are you doing to protect your wealth today? Many 308 00:18:06,040 --> 00:18:09,480 Speaker 4: people are turning to gold and silver for protection. This 309 00:18:09,600 --> 00:18:13,399 Speaker 4: year alone, they've risen an impressive twenty nine percent and 310 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:17,520 Speaker 4: since nineteen thirteen, up more than six thousand percent. Cheap 311 00:18:17,560 --> 00:18:21,480 Speaker 4: investment officer from Morgan Stanley just recommended that all investors 312 00:18:21,560 --> 00:18:25,439 Speaker 4: should replace a forty percent portfolio allocation to bonds to 313 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:29,360 Speaker 4: be split in half the twenty percent being allocated to gold. 314 00:18:29,640 --> 00:18:31,479 Speaker 4: This is a big deal for a bank to do this. 315 00:18:31,760 --> 00:18:35,520 Speaker 4: It's unprecedented. He says. Gold has been a better hedge 316 00:18:35,560 --> 00:18:39,080 Speaker 4: against inflation than bonds. Something big is happening in the 317 00:18:39,200 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 4: entire precious metal sector. Got gold? 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More Coming 333 00:19:38,920 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 4: up with Jeffrey Tucker after thists. 334 00:19:44,320 --> 00:19:46,360 Speaker 1: You didn't read my three questions in advance, so you're 335 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:47,480 Speaker 1: going to get to be surprised. 336 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,240 Speaker 2: But one of the things is that people write in for. 337 00:19:51,200 --> 00:19:54,119 Speaker 1: Kind of advice sometimes, and some of the major things 338 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 1: that people write about, I mean, the number one thing 339 00:19:56,280 --> 00:19:58,960 Speaker 1: people write about is how to make friends, either for 340 00:19:59,040 --> 00:20:02,479 Speaker 1: themselves or for the kids, or for their grown kids, 341 00:20:02,720 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: or for their spouse. I'm talking, this is the top 342 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 1: subject that I get written about, and I think that 343 00:20:10,680 --> 00:20:12,480 Speaker 1: that is it's a crisis. 344 00:20:12,560 --> 00:20:15,080 Speaker 2: People live their lives entirely online. 345 00:20:15,320 --> 00:20:17,760 Speaker 1: They don't know how to connect in person, and what 346 00:20:17,800 --> 00:20:19,640 Speaker 1: you're saying is absolutely right. 347 00:20:21,200 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 3: You know, I worried when I saw maybe a decade 348 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:30,200 Speaker 3: ago that participation in church communities or yeah, that was 349 00:20:31,760 --> 00:20:37,280 Speaker 3: was going down. My first thought was what happens now? 350 00:20:38,520 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 3: So now you have your family, if you have one, 351 00:20:41,560 --> 00:20:46,080 Speaker 3: and now you have your job, but there's no there's 352 00:20:46,080 --> 00:20:49,120 Speaker 3: no other place they can go. But what do these 353 00:20:49,160 --> 00:20:52,119 Speaker 3: look like? Okay, you can talk about civic associations and 354 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:59,199 Speaker 3: that seemed to hey, but Lockdown's kind of shattered a 355 00:20:59,200 --> 00:21:00,800 Speaker 3: lot of those. I mean, it broke up a lot 356 00:21:00,840 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 3: of garage bands, it broke up the bridge clubs, people moved, 357 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:09,720 Speaker 3: and so you left this sort of isolated person living 358 00:21:10,200 --> 00:21:13,159 Speaker 3: in a you know, in a digital world. 359 00:21:13,520 --> 00:21:15,240 Speaker 2: I'll never forgive them for what they did. 360 00:21:15,320 --> 00:21:18,080 Speaker 1: I you know, whenever I get to talking with somebody 361 00:21:18,080 --> 00:21:21,920 Speaker 1: who was also you know, anti lockdowns and really cared 362 00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,880 Speaker 1: about that, we always get right into it. My other 363 00:21:25,000 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: show with Mary Catherine Ham normally, you know, we have 364 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:31,840 Speaker 1: a segment called Still Mad bro where we often talk about, 365 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,240 Speaker 1: you know, how all the things that went wrong during 366 00:21:35,280 --> 00:21:37,520 Speaker 1: that time, all the things that were caused to go wrong, 367 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: and yeah, it's hard to recover from. 368 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:45,840 Speaker 3: Yeah. The other thing, Carols, I wrote two very fiery anger. 369 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,119 Speaker 2: You write a lot of books. 370 00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:51,040 Speaker 3: I wrote two books about the lockdowns, one in October 371 00:21:51,080 --> 00:21:54,920 Speaker 3: of twenty twenty and then one about two years later. 372 00:21:55,400 --> 00:21:58,680 Speaker 3: One's called Liberty or Lockdown. The other one is called 373 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:04,600 Speaker 3: Life After Lockdown. And those books are they're heated there earning, 374 00:22:04,640 --> 00:22:08,520 Speaker 3: they're angry, They're just furious. And a lot of science, 375 00:22:08,560 --> 00:22:10,719 Speaker 3: a lot of detail, a lot of you know, health stuff, 376 00:22:10,760 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 3: a lot of virology, immunology, epidemiology, a lot a lot 377 00:22:14,920 --> 00:22:18,200 Speaker 3: everything I know about the subject, and economics and politics 378 00:22:18,280 --> 00:22:22,159 Speaker 3: are all crammed in their class analysis everything. But you know, 379 00:22:22,240 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 3: you just can't be angry forever. So I my reason 380 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 3: for writing, yeah, I know, it's me. My reason for 381 00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,440 Speaker 3: writing The Spirits of America was trying to figure out, Okay, 382 00:22:35,080 --> 00:22:37,520 Speaker 3: if it's not just all anger and hate all the time, 383 00:22:38,440 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 3: what is it we can fall in love with? And 384 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:42,520 Speaker 3: what I discover is that we can fall in love 385 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 3: with the normal course of life. Like the routines that 386 00:22:46,200 --> 00:22:49,359 Speaker 3: advertising in our culture, everything deprecates and says you shoulgret 387 00:22:49,480 --> 00:22:51,560 Speaker 3: Maybe we shouldn't regret it. Maybe we should just be 388 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:53,360 Speaker 3: revel in it and be happy with it. 389 00:22:54,000 --> 00:22:56,719 Speaker 2: I love that. What do you worry about? 390 00:22:57,440 --> 00:23:00,840 Speaker 3: Let's see a bigger small like in my own life. 391 00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 1: For it could be any anything that you that comes 392 00:23:04,160 --> 00:23:04,600 Speaker 1: to mind. 393 00:23:06,920 --> 00:23:08,959 Speaker 3: Okay, the first thing that comes to mind right now 394 00:23:09,080 --> 00:23:11,800 Speaker 3: is the thing I worry about a lot is is 395 00:23:11,840 --> 00:23:14,720 Speaker 3: whether the dramatic changes we're seeing in the world today 396 00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 3: are are sustainable. I think as Americans we are very fortunate, 397 00:23:21,200 --> 00:23:24,720 Speaker 3: like we've entered on a on a better path. Uh, 398 00:23:24,840 --> 00:23:28,000 Speaker 3: the censorship has died down. There's a kind of a 399 00:23:28,040 --> 00:23:31,760 Speaker 3: normalcy that's that's dawning. We're seeing the reduction and the 400 00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:36,080 Speaker 3: decline of media power, and the elites are no longer 401 00:23:36,160 --> 00:23:39,640 Speaker 3: dictating scripting the public mind in the way they were 402 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,879 Speaker 3: just a few years ago. And and and the bureaucrats 403 00:23:42,920 --> 00:23:44,760 Speaker 3: that did the lockdown, so you know, they all seem 404 00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:49,000 Speaker 3: to be running away. These the censors are are fleeing. 405 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 3: And this is all good. But I worry that it's 406 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 3: that something will break it and it won't be sustainable 407 00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,679 Speaker 3: and will bounce back to the This is my I 408 00:23:58,680 --> 00:24:00,840 Speaker 3: think my number one biggest there and in fact is 409 00:24:00,880 --> 00:24:04,479 Speaker 3: Brownstone Instant. We our main job is to rescue people 410 00:24:04,600 --> 00:24:09,720 Speaker 3: out of professional displacement, like intellectuals in particular. That's really 411 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:11,760 Speaker 3: what we are founded to do, and that's what we 412 00:24:12,280 --> 00:24:16,040 Speaker 3: continue to do. But I'm I'm right now preparing for 413 00:24:16,280 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 3: a possibility to some of the very very brave people 414 00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:25,640 Speaker 3: who are who are all over the federal bureocracies now, 415 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:30,480 Speaker 3: like HHS and FDA and NIH and so on, so 416 00:24:31,119 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 3: you know, if something should happen politically or otherwise that 417 00:24:35,720 --> 00:24:42,040 Speaker 3: would break their positions were displaced and professionally, I need 418 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:44,080 Speaker 3: to be in a position to sort of absorb this 419 00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:47,960 Speaker 3: and go into a kind of a sanctuary situation. Again, 420 00:24:48,800 --> 00:24:51,040 Speaker 3: this is my number one biggest concern, and this is 421 00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,920 Speaker 3: what I'm trying to prepare for right now with Brownstow 422 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,280 Speaker 3: is just in case we have to take you. 423 00:24:57,200 --> 00:24:59,520 Speaker 2: You have to worry about that, absolutely have to. 424 00:24:59,520 --> 00:25:04,560 Speaker 3: Take an eight twelve fifteen people. There aren't enough think 425 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:10,600 Speaker 3: tanky refuges places where these people can go. So they're 426 00:25:10,640 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 3: taking grave risks with their careers. They're doing what they're 427 00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 3: doing right now, and I hope it works. What I 428 00:25:18,600 --> 00:25:21,240 Speaker 3: want right now is for what's happening in the US 429 00:25:21,359 --> 00:25:24,480 Speaker 3: to be a kind of beacon to the world, you know, 430 00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:28,080 Speaker 3: a light under the world there can be life after lockdown, 431 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,760 Speaker 3: we can restore our societies, we can get back our health, 432 00:25:30,800 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 3: we can get back our clarity. 433 00:25:32,080 --> 00:25:33,720 Speaker 2: We're in a very optimistic moment. 434 00:25:34,000 --> 00:25:36,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, the US our freedom. So I just want, like 435 00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 3: all the other countries in the world, to do this. 436 00:25:38,920 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 3: And when I look at the world right now, I 437 00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,200 Speaker 3: see that there's many places of the world that are 438 00:25:44,280 --> 00:25:49,320 Speaker 3: teetering between the two. You know, You've got tremendous political 439 00:25:49,400 --> 00:25:53,560 Speaker 3: upheaval right now in Europe and in the UKA. And 440 00:25:53,680 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 3: are they going to go the way of the US 441 00:25:56,080 --> 00:25:59,120 Speaker 3: or is the US going to be squeezed out and 442 00:25:59,240 --> 00:26:03,119 Speaker 3: be drawn back into the CCP style regime that we 443 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:04,280 Speaker 3: just left? 444 00:26:04,520 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 2: You know, yeah, I could really go either way. 445 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:10,920 Speaker 1: When you look back at your life, what advice would 446 00:26:10,960 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: you give your sixteen year old self having to do 447 00:26:13,359 --> 00:26:16,119 Speaker 1: this all over again? What is sixteen year old Jeffrey 448 00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,920 Speaker 1: you need to know other than definitely don't lock down. 449 00:26:20,000 --> 00:26:24,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, I'm not sure that I would have taken 450 00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,119 Speaker 3: the advice. In fact, I think my father gave me 451 00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,800 Speaker 3: a lot of advice that I ignored. 452 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:36,760 Speaker 1: That's every kid, right, But this is you giving yourself advice. 453 00:26:37,119 --> 00:26:39,399 Speaker 3: What would you tell me? I think I would have 454 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:43,040 Speaker 3: would have prepared myself for two things. One is to 455 00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 3: take more risks and be prepared to experience more pain 456 00:26:46,800 --> 00:26:49,359 Speaker 3: than you could ever even imagine. 457 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:50,840 Speaker 2: Really, what kind of pain? 458 00:26:51,320 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 3: What's do disappointment, trail terror, grave of shock that things 459 00:27:00,240 --> 00:27:03,560 Speaker 3: aren't going to go the way you plan them. This 460 00:27:03,680 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 3: is I've experienced this again and again and again in 461 00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 3: my life, and on an increasingly intense basis, Like the 462 00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:14,159 Speaker 3: more risks that take, the more pain I've suffered. But 463 00:27:14,280 --> 00:27:16,560 Speaker 3: then also, you know, on the other side of that 464 00:27:16,680 --> 00:27:21,000 Speaker 3: has been I was a great achievement, knock on would 465 00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,800 Speaker 3: but I think great stuff, but only and it's only 466 00:27:25,880 --> 00:27:28,640 Speaker 3: come after this dark night of the soul, which has 467 00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:34,720 Speaker 3: happened repeatedly in my life. And I don't think I 468 00:27:34,800 --> 00:27:38,240 Speaker 3: was prepared for that. At a young age, when just 469 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:41,440 Speaker 3: starting thinking about a career, thinking about what my life 470 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:46,000 Speaker 3: is like, I was just this happy, naive guy. You 471 00:27:46,040 --> 00:27:49,720 Speaker 3: know it's saying, and you know, I whistled by way 472 00:27:49,880 --> 00:27:54,520 Speaker 3: through everything life is just a happy adventure. And nobody 473 00:27:54,560 --> 00:27:57,360 Speaker 3: told me that if life is good to be an adventure, 474 00:27:57,359 --> 00:27:59,720 Speaker 3: and it should be, there will also be a lot 475 00:27:59,760 --> 00:28:05,399 Speaker 3: of disappointment and pain and difficulty and disorientation. And you 476 00:28:05,440 --> 00:28:10,399 Speaker 3: will make a lot of really bad decisions, and you 477 00:28:10,440 --> 00:28:12,600 Speaker 3: will be wrong a lot of the time. 478 00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,400 Speaker 2: I love that you own that so much. 479 00:28:15,520 --> 00:28:17,399 Speaker 1: I love that you say, like all these two books 480 00:28:17,400 --> 00:28:20,960 Speaker 1: are we're wrong and I made mistakes, and I really 481 00:28:21,040 --> 00:28:24,080 Speaker 1: don't feel like I hear that very often in our 482 00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,800 Speaker 1: public world and our public life, where people admit to 483 00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:28,680 Speaker 1: errors like that. 484 00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,159 Speaker 3: Well, you know, part of the problem, Carol, in the 485 00:28:31,400 --> 00:28:36,439 Speaker 3: in the in this in this intellectual space, we like 486 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:41,720 Speaker 3: to think of as as whole lives, you know, as 487 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:45,200 Speaker 3: one unit with one message. Like we think, what did 488 00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 3: John Locke believe? What did Sigmund Freud believe? Yes, I've 489 00:28:49,600 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 3: seen that, yeah, Uh, tell me about the thoughts of 490 00:28:54,760 --> 00:28:56,600 Speaker 3: Saint Thomas whatever the thing? 491 00:28:57,000 --> 00:28:57,280 Speaker 2: Right? 492 00:28:57,440 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 3: What is Schopenhauer? And and we clump their whole lives 493 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,960 Speaker 3: into this one homogeneous bucket and say this is what 494 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:09,760 Speaker 3: he believed. But the truth is that intellectual life is 495 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:14,959 Speaker 3: always learning. It's iterative. That means you're wrong sometimes, you're 496 00:29:15,040 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 3: right sometimes and you're wrong again, you make a misjudgment, 497 00:29:19,440 --> 00:29:24,120 Speaker 3: you reverse yourself. That's like it's impossible to separate a 498 00:29:24,160 --> 00:29:29,760 Speaker 3: body of ideas from biography, right, Yeah, people change, Yeah, 499 00:29:29,800 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 3: And so I think part of the reluctance of people 500 00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 3: like me, influencers or intellectuals or journalists whatever, to admit 501 00:29:37,720 --> 00:29:40,280 Speaker 3: error is for fear that people won't be able to 502 00:29:40,280 --> 00:29:43,240 Speaker 3: make sense of their lives. Like you just have to 503 00:29:43,280 --> 00:29:46,600 Speaker 3: have one tag on your head, you know, right, this 504 00:29:46,640 --> 00:29:50,560 Speaker 3: is my lifetime message. Well, I finally had to give 505 00:29:50,640 --> 00:29:53,959 Speaker 3: up on that because I you know what it is. 506 00:29:54,040 --> 00:29:58,360 Speaker 3: I think it traces to my own desperate desire for sincerity. 507 00:29:58,880 --> 00:30:02,000 Speaker 3: And I'm not a I'm not some paragon of truth, 508 00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:05,240 Speaker 3: but I want to believe that I strive to say 509 00:30:05,320 --> 00:30:06,200 Speaker 3: true things. 510 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,680 Speaker 1: Is best and telling the truth is messy. It's not 511 00:30:09,760 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: such an organized easy thing to do. We're going to 512 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:14,720 Speaker 1: take a quick break and be right back on the 513 00:30:14,800 --> 00:30:21,280 Speaker 1: Carol Marcowitch Show. Well you're super interesting, Jeffrey. I've loved 514 00:30:21,280 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 1: this conversation. I really think your work is amazing and 515 00:30:24,920 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 1: I'm so glad you came on. Leave us here with 516 00:30:28,760 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: your best tip for my listeners on how they can 517 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:32,640 Speaker 1: improve their lives. 518 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:34,560 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, I'm going to go back to what I 519 00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:40,320 Speaker 3: said earlier. Start right now. Whatever you're doing next that 520 00:30:40,400 --> 00:30:44,240 Speaker 3: you normally regret and hate because it's something because it's 521 00:30:44,240 --> 00:30:45,600 Speaker 3: getting in the way of the next thing you want 522 00:30:45,640 --> 00:30:48,680 Speaker 3: to do, figure out a way to love that thing, 523 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:53,800 Speaker 3: to appreciate the opportunity to do it, Be grateful that 524 00:30:53,880 --> 00:30:57,560 Speaker 3: you have the energy, the thought, the mentality, the capacity 525 00:30:58,240 --> 00:31:03,040 Speaker 3: to make a difference, and however small a way it is, 526 00:31:03,160 --> 00:31:07,800 Speaker 3: and do it with diligence, persistence and love. That will 527 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:10,880 Speaker 3: start making your life happier instantly. 528 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,000 Speaker 1: All right, I'm going to go clean the kitchen and 529 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:16,840 Speaker 1: have a really positive outlook about that. He's Jeffrey Tucker. 530 00:31:17,000 --> 00:31:19,200 Speaker 1: Check out his new book, Spirits of America. 531 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 2: Check him out. 532 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,960 Speaker 1: He is the president of Brownstone Institute. Follow him on 533 00:31:23,120 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 1: x He's really fantastic. Thank you so much, Jeffrey. 534 00:31:26,160 --> 00:31:27,120 Speaker 3: It's my pleasure. Thank you. 535 00:31:27,160 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: Goo