WEBVTT - The 11:11 Wish 0:00:00.200 --> 0:00:02.759 Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 0:00:03.840 --> 0:00:08.200 This episode contains discussion of suicide. Listener discretion is advised. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:16.439 On January eighth, twenty fourteen, my sister walked the Benagamin 0:00:16.520 --> 0:00:18.200 Franklin Bridge. 0:00:18.800 --> 0:00:19.880 My sister disappeared. 0:00:21.120 --> 0:00:26.920 How why I never viewed the security photographs myself. 0:00:28.000 --> 0:00:32.320 I didn't ask to is it really her? Are we sure? 0:00:33.120 --> 0:00:36.279 Perhaps it was easier not to know, not to have 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:38.720 the definitive proof of having seen it myself. 0:00:40.280 --> 0:00:42.040 The image of my head is thus one of my 0:00:42.080 --> 0:00:50.960 own creation. A girl walking keiate, walking poof gone. 0:00:52.280 --> 0:00:55.640 That's Kylie Letty, a twenty five year old graduate student 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:59.040 in social work and public policy and author of the 0:00:59.080 --> 0:01:04.680 memoir The Other Kylie's is a story about sisterhood, grief, 0:01:05.319 --> 0:01:08.080 and the way what we don't know, perhaps what we 0:01:08.160 --> 0:01:11.760 might never know, has the power to shape us. It's 0:01:11.800 --> 0:01:29.720 also a story of great love, strength, tenacity, and meaning making. 0:01:32.280 --> 0:01:36.319 I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family Secrets. The secrets 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:39.200 that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:42.080 and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 0:01:46.600 --> 0:01:49.080 Me and my sister we were six years apart. 0:01:49.840 --> 0:01:51.559 You grew up a little bit in Connecticut, a little 0:01:51.600 --> 0:01:54.440 bit in Virginia, but mostly talked about our years. And 0:01:54.480 --> 0:01:59.400 we were living in Marblehead, Massachusetts, which is a small coastal. 0:01:59.040 --> 0:02:04.160 Town, very idyllic, and it was a beautiful place by 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:08.520 the beach. We had it good. We were so loved. 0:02:08.680 --> 0:02:11.400 My parents took such good care of us. We were 0:02:12.200 --> 0:02:15.600 kind of best friends. We would spend our days at 0:02:15.600 --> 0:02:19.480 the beach picking out seashells. I mean, it was really 0:02:19.639 --> 0:02:25.200 it was really wonderful. And then when I was around seven, 0:02:25.560 --> 0:02:29.160 we moved to Philadelphia, first for a year in the 0:02:29.200 --> 0:02:32.760 city and then to the suburbs near Villanova University, and 0:02:32.880 --> 0:02:33.320 that was in Key. 0:02:33.400 --> 0:02:35.520 It was kind of entering her teenage years. 0:02:36.120 --> 0:02:40.400 What precipitated the move from Marblehead to Philly. 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:42.640 My dad's job caused us to move. 0:02:42.880 --> 0:02:45.120 He was working in tech of time, so it was 0:02:45.160 --> 0:02:48.320 a lot of just you know, constant fluctuations, a lot 0:02:48.320 --> 0:02:50.040 of moving around companies. 0:02:50.240 --> 0:02:53.040 And so this was in this sort of you know 0:02:53.120 --> 0:02:54.240 tech boom, right. 0:02:54.520 --> 0:02:56.400 Yeah, exactly, the dot com bubble. 0:02:57.160 --> 0:03:01.320 I was around seven, it was like two thousand and 0:03:01.400 --> 0:03:03.120 four or five, So. 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:05.120 You were going into the first grade when you moved 0:03:05.120 --> 0:03:11.080 to Philly, and Kate was going into seventh. 0:03:10.160 --> 0:03:10.919 Yes, exactly. 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.959 I think that having my sister be five years my senior, 0:03:16.240 --> 0:03:19.200 I think it was just having like a second mom, 0:03:19.680 --> 0:03:21.120 Like she really took care of me. 0:03:21.800 --> 0:03:24.079 She prayed for me to be born. 0:03:24.240 --> 0:03:26.440 She was always asking for little sister, and she had 0:03:26.440 --> 0:03:29.320 all these dolls she was dressing up. She was obsessed 0:03:29.320 --> 0:03:32.960 with twins and Mary Kate, Ashley Olsen, and she just 0:03:33.000 --> 0:03:34.720 really wanted to take care of me like that. 0:03:35.160 --> 0:03:36.280 Now I idolized her. 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:40.240 To me, she was just she was so courageous and 0:03:40.320 --> 0:03:45.120 bold and adventurous, and she really challenged me. 0:03:45.280 --> 0:03:47.920 She loved me. I didn't speak for a while when 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:52.240 I was little. I was just so quiet. 0:03:52.800 --> 0:03:55.320 My grandparents keep talking and joking about how when I 0:03:55.360 --> 0:03:57.160 was little, I would just stare everybody. 0:03:58.360 --> 0:04:00.040 My mom keeps saying, it's because. 0:04:00.080 --> 0:04:01.640 I had so much to watch. There's always a show 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:04.040 going off. My sister, she was a performer. She was 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:08.160 just like ball of energy, so much light, so funny, 0:04:08.520 --> 0:04:12.200 and I just was always entertained by her. 0:04:13.200 --> 0:04:14.880 Growing up. My mom and my sister and. 0:04:14.920 --> 0:04:18.880 I were super close, and my dad was really great too. 0:04:19.200 --> 0:04:23.000 You know, he's working a lot, so that was less 0:04:23.000 --> 0:04:26.080 of an impression in my mind than my mom in 0:04:26.080 --> 0:04:30.960 that sense, She's been the perfect mix between being your 0:04:30.960 --> 0:04:34.120 friend and being your parent. Always, since I was little, 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:37.600 I've always felt like I could tell everything. My parents 0:04:37.920 --> 0:04:42.120 were really conscientious about trying to give us everything that 0:04:42.200 --> 0:04:46.080 they may not have had. They were just trying their best. 0:04:48.160 --> 0:04:52.040 So when you look back now, or you know, for 0:04:52.160 --> 0:04:56.039 these last years, as I think we just we do 0:04:56.120 --> 0:05:01.000 as human beings, when something goes awry, we look for 0:05:01.080 --> 0:05:06.000 the moment when we could have It's a fantasy, I think, 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:08.440 but you know, the moment where we could have stopped it, 0:05:08.560 --> 0:05:10.240 or it could have gone differently, or we could have 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:14.080 seen it as it was happening and sort of altered 0:05:14.120 --> 0:05:17.640 its course. And you know, one of the things that 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:22.600 I think is so powerful about your story is throughout it, you, Kylie, 0:05:22.640 --> 0:05:26.200 the adult, are looking for the sort of cracks and 0:05:26.240 --> 0:05:33.680 fissures and the place where this exuberant, beautiful, dynamic older sister, 0:05:34.279 --> 0:05:37.960 where the signs were, where she was exhibiting the beginnings 0:05:38.080 --> 0:05:42.920 of maybe something being more than that, more complicated than that. 0:05:43.440 --> 0:05:47.960 What would you say for you is the first memory 0:05:48.040 --> 0:05:49.960 or the first moment as you look back on it 0:05:50.080 --> 0:05:54.200 now of what that might have been, and also what 0:05:54.279 --> 0:05:56.800 did it feel like at the time, So. 0:05:56.839 --> 0:06:00.480 I would say that until we really moved to Phidelphia, 0:06:00.480 --> 0:06:04.080 I don't remember anything being that awry. I think that 0:06:04.760 --> 0:06:07.200 my mom has talked about how my sister was in 0:06:07.240 --> 0:06:10.840 trouble sometimes at school when she's younger, you know, just 0:06:10.960 --> 0:06:13.559 getting into arguments other kids, or getting into little petty 0:06:13.600 --> 0:06:15.880 fights here and there. But she just had a really 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:19.600 bold personality, and I think at that time that seemed 0:06:19.640 --> 0:06:22.359 like not a problem, maybe even a good thing that 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.560 she could advocate for herself. And she was also really smart, 0:06:26.960 --> 0:06:28.839 so she could get away with things. 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:31.560 But when we moved to Philadelphia. 0:06:31.120 --> 0:06:35.080 She was thirteen and I was turning seven, and that's 0:06:35.120 --> 0:06:39.640 when we started seeing a little more kind of concerning signs. Again, 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.839 it's just so hard to tell when you know what's 0:06:42.880 --> 0:06:43.960 normal it's not normal. 0:06:44.680 --> 0:06:46.680 So it was it was more like skipping schools. 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:50.200 There was more partying, some mood swings, but a lot 0:06:50.240 --> 0:06:52.960 of it was still typical teenage stuff. And I think 0:06:53.000 --> 0:06:57.560 it's just it's so difficult to distinguish between what's going 0:06:57.560 --> 0:07:00.360 on actually and where's a lie. 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:03.560 I know my mom has said before maybe if I. 0:07:03.600 --> 0:07:05.920 Was born first, if I was the first kid, they 0:07:05.960 --> 0:07:08.599 could have seen that some of this stuff wasn't normal. 0:07:08.839 --> 0:07:10.760 At that point, they had nothing to compare it to either, 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:14.360 so it all seemed fine, but still just a little 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:15.800 more concerning. Starting around them. 0:07:17.440 --> 0:07:21.600 My sister, she had a lot of superstitions and signs 0:07:21.600 --> 0:07:26.560 she believed in, and different little rituals she would kind 0:07:26.600 --> 0:07:29.080 of include me in, and one of them was wishing 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:33.800 on eleven eleven and my whole life at eleven eleven 0:07:33.840 --> 0:07:36.000 PM at eleven eleven. 0:07:35.680 --> 0:07:39.160 AM, we would make a wish together. And when I 0:07:39.240 --> 0:07:41.720 was seven, I remember the first time. 0:07:41.520 --> 0:07:43.760 I had a wish that was that I wish my 0:07:43.800 --> 0:07:46.640 sister gets better. And I think it's because I was 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.520 picking up on the fact that she was getting into 0:07:49.520 --> 0:07:53.720 travel at school more and my parents were more concerned and. 0:07:53.520 --> 0:07:55.400 That something was going on here, and I just want 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:57.440 my sister back and making sure she was okay. 0:07:58.240 --> 0:08:03.440 And because I had this pattern of superstition and ritual established, 0:08:04.320 --> 0:08:07.679 I ever since then kind of kept that wish the same. 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.400 So I'd always every eleven eleven, every birthday, every time 0:08:11.440 --> 0:08:14.040 I had a wishbone or anything else, I would always 0:08:14.120 --> 0:08:16.760 ask for that one thing. So I think on some 0:08:16.880 --> 0:08:19.160 level I was just picking up on what was going 0:08:19.200 --> 0:08:23.480 on without actually being consciously or cognitively aware of it exactly. 0:08:29.040 --> 0:08:32.880 In Kylie's memoir, she writes, my sister was the kind 0:08:32.920 --> 0:08:36.079 of girl people write books about. I was the kind 0:08:36.080 --> 0:08:39.240 of girl who read such books, who listened to such 0:08:39.280 --> 0:08:42.880 songs and wondered how a spark in one person could 0:08:42.960 --> 0:08:46.480 like a flame in so many others. Suffice it to say, 0:08:47.040 --> 0:08:51.120 Kylie idolizes her big sister Kate, even when Kate gets 0:08:51.120 --> 0:08:55.079 in trouble, even when Kate gets angry and violent. 0:08:57.480 --> 0:09:00.880 I think I was in third grade and friends sleeping over, 0:09:01.720 --> 0:09:03.320 and my mom and my sister were going to fight, 0:09:03.360 --> 0:09:05.880 and I have no idea what the fight was instigated about. 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:08.040 I can't remember. I think maybe something to do with 0:09:08.080 --> 0:09:08.800 her cell phone. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:11.280 My mom was taking it away because she got in 0:09:11.320 --> 0:09:14.960 trouble or something along those lines. But it had escalated 0:09:15.200 --> 0:09:19.960 into violence, with my sister hitting my mom and then 0:09:20.000 --> 0:09:23.000 her having to actually go to the hospital because she 0:09:23.440 --> 0:09:26.400 it was like her cheekbll and that got hurt. And 0:09:26.880 --> 0:09:29.560 that was for me, as a little kid, the first 0:09:29.600 --> 0:09:32.800 time I remember having to shield somebody else from what 0:09:32.880 --> 0:09:36.440 was going on and trying to keep my friend away 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.120 from it and have her not see what was going on, 0:09:39.240 --> 0:09:40.480 so she did you to go home and talk to 0:09:40.480 --> 0:09:43.120 her parents and didn't become a bigger thing. And that 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.560 was really the last time I had friends sleep over 0:09:46.400 --> 0:09:49.040 because it was just it was too difficult to know 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:52.400 when my sister's temperament was going to get out of 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:54.600 control and when these kind of angry outbursts and mood 0:09:54.600 --> 0:09:58.760 swings would happen. From then on, it was easier to 0:09:58.840 --> 0:10:01.920 keep everything secret and not thought that was going on 0:10:02.160 --> 0:10:03.800 and make sure that no one else got hurt too. 0:10:04.520 --> 0:10:05.880 That was a big thing for my mom as well. 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.440 I was just trying to protect Kate and also protect 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:11.760 other people from Kate. Unfortunately. 0:10:13.200 --> 0:10:15.400 So around that time, you actually come up with an 0:10:15.559 --> 0:10:19.080 ingenious cover story for why you can't have sleepovers. 0:10:19.840 --> 0:10:24.040 Yes, so I started telling people in my house was 0:10:24.080 --> 0:10:27.440 haunted or it was a very childish probably thing to 0:10:27.559 --> 0:10:30.880 start saying, but there was a very old home with 0:10:30.960 --> 0:10:33.840 you know those rickety floorboards and all those spooky things 0:10:33.840 --> 0:10:36.880 that happened with old homes. That was a way for 0:10:36.920 --> 0:10:38.240 me to say that I didn't want to have a 0:10:38.240 --> 0:10:40.040 sleepover at my house, Like why don't we go to 0:10:40.080 --> 0:10:42.920 your house instead? Or after school don't we go to 0:10:42.960 --> 0:10:45.600 your house to watch this movie or watch this show 0:10:45.679 --> 0:10:46.720 and not mine. 0:10:47.360 --> 0:10:49.040 Yeah, and in some ways it occurred to me, I 0:10:49.080 --> 0:10:51.240 mean in a way your house was haunted. I mean, 0:10:51.280 --> 0:10:54.719 whether in a supernatural way or you know, haunted by 0:10:54.800 --> 0:11:01.880 what was happening inside of it. Yeah, exactly, within this 0:11:02.000 --> 0:11:05.720 haunted house, there are also pockets of joy. When things 0:11:05.800 --> 0:11:09.200 are good, they're very, very good, and when they're bad, 0:11:09.440 --> 0:11:13.800 they're terrible. But the good moments contain real happiness that Kylie, 0:11:14.120 --> 0:11:17.040 Kate and their mom share and also a kind of 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:19.840 playful magic that together they create. 0:11:21.360 --> 0:11:25.760 I'm thinking it was December. I think I was around twelve, 0:11:26.679 --> 0:11:28.319 and I'm not sure who had the idea first. 0:11:28.360 --> 0:11:30.560 It is probably my sister. It was something she would 0:11:30.559 --> 0:11:31.000 come up with. 0:11:31.520 --> 0:11:35.000 But my mom, my sister and I had this, you know, 0:11:35.160 --> 0:11:38.040 kind of ridiculous idea that we'd go around town and 0:11:38.280 --> 0:11:41.600 put these little red dot stickers on the deer crossing 0:11:41.640 --> 0:11:44.400 signs or neighborhood and make it into Rudolph Red Nose. 0:11:45.679 --> 0:11:46.760 Image. So we would. 0:11:47.200 --> 0:11:50.000 We bought these little red dots at Staples and then 0:11:50.120 --> 0:11:52.040 we ran around town in the middle of the night. 0:11:52.240 --> 0:11:55.080 I think it was probably like not that late realistically, 0:11:55.520 --> 0:11:56.120 because I was. 0:11:56.120 --> 0:11:57.440 Little, I thought it was really late. 0:11:58.400 --> 0:12:00.400 And I remember like my sister had a lift me 0:12:00.440 --> 0:12:02.840 on her shoulders so I could stick the sticker on there, 0:12:02.920 --> 0:12:06.400 and we were just cracking up the entire time, trying 0:12:06.440 --> 0:12:08.520 not to peer pants because we were laughing so hard. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:12.920 And I remember that just being this another example of 0:12:12.960 --> 0:12:15.560 even though things were bad at all these times, we 0:12:15.600 --> 0:12:16.800 also were having fun together. 0:12:16.840 --> 0:12:17.760 We were still family. 0:12:18.240 --> 0:12:22.000 My sister kind of brought this like adventurous spirit out 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.480 in all of us that made us all laugh and 0:12:25.120 --> 0:12:27.240 do something different than we normally would have done. 0:12:30.600 --> 0:12:34.440 Underscoring these fun adventures, there is the prevailing sense of 0:12:34.480 --> 0:12:38.840 something being wrong. Kylie internalizes this feeling and begins to 0:12:38.880 --> 0:12:43.760 develop anxiety, particularly anxiety about her health and body. She 0:12:43.840 --> 0:12:47.360 scrolls through web md, looking up all sorts of symptoms 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.680 and treatments anything she can find. Without quite knowing what's wrong. 0:12:52.120 --> 0:12:56.040 She thinks, whatever it is must live inside her. 0:12:57.000 --> 0:13:00.000 I think a victoria that was trying to get control. 0:13:00.200 --> 0:13:02.120 And also because you couldn't find on that was happening 0:13:02.120 --> 0:13:04.520 with my sister, it was like, what can I control 0:13:04.520 --> 0:13:06.920 in this element? What's something that there are these like 0:13:06.960 --> 0:13:09.800 insidious forces that are happening, are changing my sister? 0:13:10.200 --> 0:13:11.920 Am I going to change too? Is meaning bad going 0:13:11.880 --> 0:13:12.600 to happened to me too? 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:15.280 And you're kind of on this like hyper vigilance of 0:13:15.320 --> 0:13:18.360 always waiting for the next shoot to drop. And I 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.000 also think a big part of it was that I 0:13:20.120 --> 0:13:23.840 was under so much stress, you know, watching these episodes 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.079 of my sister, and that stress. 0:13:25.800 --> 0:13:28.080 Does sometimes cause strange things. 0:13:28.040 --> 0:13:29.520 Up in the body, Like I had school and lip 0:13:29.640 --> 0:13:32.160 nodes and I thought I had maybe cancers. My lymph 0:13:32.200 --> 0:13:34.440 nodes were stolen my under my armpits or in my neck, 0:13:34.480 --> 0:13:37.400 And it was probably because I was just really stressed out, 0:13:37.600 --> 0:13:39.880 and you know that whole mind body connection that was 0:13:40.280 --> 0:13:42.160 we were dealing with a Kate, we were also dealing with, 0:13:42.280 --> 0:13:45.400 you know, with ourselves trying to feel the stress. I 0:13:45.440 --> 0:13:48.800 also remember thinking at one point, like, you know, everyone 0:13:48.840 --> 0:13:51.280 has some kind of family secret they're hiding, like we're not. 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:52.840 We're all just not talking about something. 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:55.680 You know, other families are going through something similar and 0:13:55.800 --> 0:13:57.920 they were not saying either, So why shouldn't say anything? 0:13:59.080 --> 0:14:02.679 And did you and your mom ever talked about it 0:14:02.760 --> 0:14:04.920 at that time or was it not until later? 0:14:06.320 --> 0:14:08.240 I think my mom and I did talk about that time. 0:14:08.520 --> 0:14:11.439 I'm being very aware that something was off. 0:14:11.559 --> 0:14:12.680 I was worried about. 0:14:12.440 --> 0:14:15.079 Her, but I don't think I knew how I should 0:14:15.080 --> 0:14:17.319 be worried yet, I think. And we didn't have a 0:14:17.320 --> 0:14:20.480 diagnosis really for years, and there are things tossed around, 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:21.560 and we tried therapists. 0:14:21.560 --> 0:14:23.360 So I knew that my sister, like you. 0:14:23.560 --> 0:14:25.480 Was struggling with something, but it was just it was 0:14:25.520 --> 0:14:28.160 so inconcrete at that point, and it was also just 0:14:28.200 --> 0:14:30.560 growing pains, like just being a teenager. You never know 0:14:30.960 --> 0:14:32.960 if someone's going to grow out of something, and this 0:14:33.120 --> 0:14:36.920 is just a phase, or it's hormonal or environmental, or 0:14:37.680 --> 0:14:40.480 induced by drugs or alcohol use or the partying, Like 0:14:40.520 --> 0:14:42.320 you just have no idea what's actually happening. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:15:03.680 We'll be right back around this time, Kate also begins 0:15:03.680 --> 0:15:07.120 to have a series of accidents which result in head injuries. 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.560 She has her first concussion at a high school party 0:15:10.880 --> 0:15:14.400 where she falls and hits her head. One night. Soon after, 0:15:14.920 --> 0:15:16.960 she tries to sneak out of her bedroom window to 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.400 meet up with friends and she falls and hits her 0:15:19.400 --> 0:15:24.800 head again. These falls are worrisome but not dire. Then, 0:15:25.280 --> 0:15:28.080 when she's a freshman in college, it does become dire. 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:32.040 She hurts her head once more, and this time she 0:15:32.080 --> 0:15:35.920 suffers a serious brain injury. She's put into an induced 0:15:35.960 --> 0:15:40.480 coma for a number of days. Kylie is beside herself 0:15:40.520 --> 0:15:45.080 with worry. Her anxiety spikes. She begins to literally see 0:15:45.120 --> 0:15:50.280 red all around her. We use that expression seeing red, 0:15:50.760 --> 0:15:56.200 but you who, I think, all through your life saw 0:15:57.000 --> 0:16:00.320 different periods of time and color in a certain way. 0:16:00.400 --> 0:16:05.720 You know, Marblehead was blue and Philadelphia was green. Now 0:16:06.160 --> 0:16:11.200 you're seeing red, and Kate is very changed, and your 0:16:11.200 --> 0:16:17.600 mother is like desperately searching for reasons for what this 0:16:17.720 --> 0:16:20.840 behavior could possibly be. Is it because of the traumatic 0:16:20.880 --> 0:16:24.720 brain injury? Is it because of lyme disease? Is it 0:16:24.720 --> 0:16:27.600 because of the series of head injuries? Is it because 0:16:27.640 --> 0:16:32.360 of a condition that she had of polycystic ovarian syndrome. 0:16:32.920 --> 0:16:37.360 Yeah, after the head injury, my sister's behavior just worsened dramatically. 0:16:37.520 --> 0:16:40.560 And I think I was around like thirteen or fourteen, 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.520 and I remember my sister had like an episode I 0:16:43.520 --> 0:16:45.320 don't remember what again. 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:49.920 You know actually inspired it because these fits were just 0:16:50.000 --> 0:16:52.200 kind of senseless. They would would get triggered. 0:16:51.880 --> 0:16:53.880 By something we couldn't see or hear, something that was 0:16:53.880 --> 0:16:56.360 going on inside her own head, so it's hardly low Kay, 0:16:56.400 --> 0:16:57.400 exactly what happened. 0:16:58.040 --> 0:17:01.720 So I remember being in my family is like entrance 0:17:01.760 --> 0:17:06.360 way of our house, and just being so overwhelmed, so. 0:17:06.400 --> 0:17:09.600 Upset and honestly so angry that I saw red actually 0:17:09.640 --> 0:17:11.040 and I had to sit down because I was going 0:17:11.040 --> 0:17:13.760 to faint, and it really scared me because I didn't 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:15.920 know that was out something actually happened. That was just 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:19.119 like a literary phrase people used, but you know, I 0:17:19.200 --> 0:17:22.480 really did physically see read that moment. And I think 0:17:22.520 --> 0:17:26.320 also like part of it too, was that I was twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 0:17:26.320 --> 0:17:28.440 when all this is really escalating, and those are the 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:31.200 years when you're starting to develop your own sense of self, 0:17:31.800 --> 0:17:35.520 and my sister's sense of self was deteriorating. So there 0:17:35.560 --> 0:17:37.320 was this element where I was kind of starting to, 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.000 you know, voice my opinion more. 0:17:40.080 --> 0:17:43.600 Or challenge her more, and that wasn't helping anything either. 0:17:46.320 --> 0:17:49.480 When Kate is at her worst, she's aggressive, hurling insults 0:17:49.480 --> 0:17:52.800 at Kylie, and when Kate is her best, she's writing 0:17:52.840 --> 0:17:56.400 notes to Kylie love letters to her little sister. Both 0:17:56.560 --> 0:18:02.920 versions of Kate exist simultaneouslys are particularly insidious, though because 0:18:02.960 --> 0:18:05.320 these happened during the years when Kylie's coming into her 0:18:05.359 --> 0:18:09.320 own forming her identity. When Kate tells Kylie that she's 0:18:09.440 --> 0:18:12.919 ugly or stupid, she's saying things that can't help but 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:15.320 embed themselves into Kylie's sense of self. 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:19.040 It was so hard when she could be really cruel, 0:18:19.240 --> 0:18:22.360 and she also was really intuitive, kind of about what 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:26.000 you were most insecure about, so she could sense what 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.679 you were struggling with and she could use that against you. 0:18:28.840 --> 0:18:31.959 She was still very spar in that sense, and it 0:18:32.000 --> 0:18:33.840 was really hurtful, and I think those are the moments 0:18:33.880 --> 0:18:36.040 where I just feel so grateful that I had my 0:18:36.119 --> 0:18:40.000 mom and I had parents that were supportive, because you know, 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:42.760 if I didn't have somebody who was reinforcing my self 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:45.120 esteem and trying to make sure I was okay, those 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:47.440 kind of insults when you were so young constantly that 0:18:47.800 --> 0:18:52.480 verbal abuse can just deteriorate somebody. And it's still something 0:18:52.520 --> 0:18:55.720 that I'm like trying to unlearn. There's still insecurities I 0:18:55.720 --> 0:18:59.760 have that definitely derive from those times. I think also 0:18:59.800 --> 0:19:02.800 with my illness, and somebody can shift so easily and 0:19:02.920 --> 0:19:05.600 one second she can be telling me I'm the best 0:19:05.600 --> 0:19:08.000 sister in the world and writing these notes saying that 0:19:08.040 --> 0:19:10.119 I'm so beautiful and she loves me more than anybody 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.359 else in the world and all these things. In the 0:19:12.400 --> 0:19:15.480 next second, she's yelling at me, saying that I'm hideous 0:19:15.600 --> 0:19:18.640 and that I'm stupid and no one likes me. And 0:19:18.720 --> 0:19:21.159 you know, it's so hard to try in your brain 0:19:21.400 --> 0:19:23.200 to combine. 0:19:22.840 --> 0:19:26.240 Those two people. And I wish fact that. 0:19:26.240 --> 0:19:29.920 I had been able to differentiate more just between this 0:19:30.000 --> 0:19:32.280 is the illness talking, you know, my sister is unwell, 0:19:32.560 --> 0:19:36.280 and then also loving who she is otherwise, and because 0:19:36.320 --> 0:19:38.600 I think it's just it's really hard to love somebody 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:44.120 when they're suffering or also inflicting suffering onto you. I 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:47.359 was around fourteen when we started kind of getting a 0:19:47.520 --> 0:19:51.199 clearer diagnosis about schizophrenia, and I remember being, you know, 0:19:51.240 --> 0:19:53.720 an early preteen and googling the term because I had 0:19:53.760 --> 0:19:54.679 no idea how to spell it. 0:19:54.720 --> 0:19:59.320 Even to me, it sounded like some mysterious illness. You know, 0:19:59.359 --> 0:20:00.719 I had to educate surrounded. 0:20:01.080 --> 0:20:02.720 I don't think i'd really learned about it in school 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:07.560 at that point, so there was a big learning process 0:20:07.600 --> 0:20:10.399 around understanding what mental illness is and what's going on 0:20:10.480 --> 0:20:13.040 here and back then too. I mean it wasn't that 0:20:13.119 --> 0:20:15.760 long ago, but still we have way more resources now 0:20:15.800 --> 0:20:16.920 than I think we did back then. 0:20:18.560 --> 0:20:22.680 And was it a really a diagnosis that was arrived 0:20:22.680 --> 0:20:27.040 at by ruling out every other avenue. 0:20:27.680 --> 0:20:30.360 It's a diagnosis I remember we got after the head injury, 0:20:30.960 --> 0:20:33.679 but it wasn't it still shifted, you know, I think 0:20:33.720 --> 0:20:35.960 different we didn't to so many doctors. He tried, My 0:20:36.000 --> 0:20:39.440 mom just tried like every single thing possible, and different 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:42.959 doctors would say different things. Some would say, this is bipolar, 0:20:43.480 --> 0:20:45.320 this is schizophrenia, this is actually. 0:20:45.000 --> 0:20:46.120 Bipolar disorder too. 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.560 I mean there were so many I think borderline was 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:51.399 thrown around there at one point. Like there's just so 0:20:51.440 --> 0:20:54.119 many terms that it was always shifting that we still 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:58.600 never had a clear picture in retrospect. To me, because 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.480 I just recently I studied psychology and I just got 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.480 my graduate degree as a clinical therapist. So with all 0:21:05.600 --> 0:21:09.040 that extra education, I think I can say that it 0:21:09.119 --> 0:21:12.040 was probably schizophrenia. But there is a lot of overlap here, 0:21:12.560 --> 0:21:14.919 and I just know she was having like active hallucinations 0:21:15.160 --> 0:21:17.760 and that to me is like probably the most primary 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:19.440 symptom that was the most concerning. 0:21:20.640 --> 0:21:22.479 One of the things that you write about is it 0:21:22.560 --> 0:21:25.320 wasn't my story to tell, and I was thinking about 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.600 the burden or I'm wondering, I guess whether it felt 0:21:28.640 --> 0:21:36.000 like a burden to beholding that secret at that age, 0:21:36.160 --> 0:21:39.480 you know, and your friends had no idea what was 0:21:39.600 --> 0:21:43.000 going on, you know, within the walls of your home. 0:21:44.080 --> 0:21:46.760 Yeah, you know, I think holding that secret it would 0:21:46.760 --> 0:21:49.480 think it was important at the time because I did 0:21:49.520 --> 0:21:52.680 feel a need to protect my sister's privacy and we 0:21:52.680 --> 0:21:54.400 were in the same school district and we. 0:21:54.400 --> 0:21:56.840 Had, you know, similar friends. 0:21:57.280 --> 0:22:00.520 My friend's older sister was friends with her with somebody, 0:22:01.320 --> 0:22:03.280 and it was just really important to me that, you know, 0:22:03.320 --> 0:22:07.600 we can't handle Kate dealing with more stress, so we 0:22:07.680 --> 0:22:11.520 have to keep this insulart and protect her. And for 0:22:11.640 --> 0:22:13.840 me growing up, I think not having a lot of 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:15.200 confidence and not being able. 0:22:15.080 --> 0:22:16.960 To talk to about people about what was actually going 0:22:16.960 --> 0:22:19.280 on just made me feel more isolated. 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:22.520