1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:02,759 Speaker 1: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. 2 00:00:03,840 --> 00:00:08,200 Speaker 2: This episode contains discussion of suicide. Listener discretion is advised. 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:16,439 Speaker 3: On January eighth, twenty fourteen, my sister walked the Benagamin 4 00:00:16,520 --> 00:00:18,200 Speaker 3: Franklin Bridge. 5 00:00:18,800 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 1: My sister disappeared. 6 00:00:21,120 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 3: How why I never viewed the security photographs myself. 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:32,320 Speaker 1: I didn't ask to is it really her? Are we sure? 8 00:00:33,120 --> 00:00:36,279 Speaker 3: Perhaps it was easier not to know, not to have 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,720 Speaker 3: the definitive proof of having seen it myself. 10 00:00:40,280 --> 00:00:42,040 Speaker 1: The image of my head is thus one of my 11 00:00:42,080 --> 00:00:50,960 Speaker 1: own creation. A girl walking keiate, walking poof gone. 12 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:55,640 Speaker 2: That's Kylie Letty, a twenty five year old graduate student 13 00:00:55,760 --> 00:00:59,040 Speaker 2: in social work and public policy and author of the 14 00:00:59,080 --> 00:01:04,680 Speaker 2: memoir The Other Kylie's is a story about sisterhood, grief, 15 00:01:05,319 --> 00:01:08,080 Speaker 2: and the way what we don't know, perhaps what we 16 00:01:08,160 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 2: might never know, has the power to shape us. It's 17 00:01:11,800 --> 00:01:29,720 Speaker 2: also a story of great love, strength, tenacity, and meaning making. 18 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:36,319 Speaker 2: I'm Danny Shapiro, and this is family Secrets. The secrets 19 00:01:36,360 --> 00:01:39,200 Speaker 2: that are kept from us, the secrets we keep from others, 20 00:01:39,760 --> 00:01:42,080 Speaker 2: and the secrets we keep from ourselves. 21 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:49,080 Speaker 1: Me and my sister we were six years apart. 22 00:01:49,840 --> 00:01:51,559 Speaker 3: You grew up a little bit in Connecticut, a little 23 00:01:51,600 --> 00:01:54,440 Speaker 3: bit in Virginia, but mostly talked about our years. And 24 00:01:54,480 --> 00:01:59,400 Speaker 3: we were living in Marblehead, Massachusetts, which is a small coastal. 25 00:01:59,040 --> 00:02:04,160 Speaker 1: Town, very idyllic, and it was a beautiful place by 26 00:02:04,200 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 1: the beach. We had it good. We were so loved. 27 00:02:08,680 --> 00:02:11,400 Speaker 3: My parents took such good care of us. We were 28 00:02:12,200 --> 00:02:15,600 Speaker 3: kind of best friends. We would spend our days at 29 00:02:15,600 --> 00:02:19,480 Speaker 3: the beach picking out seashells. I mean, it was really 30 00:02:19,639 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 3: it was really wonderful. And then when I was around seven, 31 00:02:25,560 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: we moved to Philadelphia, first for a year in the 32 00:02:29,200 --> 00:02:32,760 Speaker 3: city and then to the suburbs near Villanova University, and 33 00:02:32,880 --> 00:02:33,320 Speaker 3: that was in Key. 34 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: It was kind of entering her teenage years. 35 00:02:36,120 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 2: What precipitated the move from Marblehead to Philly. 36 00:02:40,880 --> 00:02:42,640 Speaker 1: My dad's job caused us to move. 37 00:02:42,880 --> 00:02:45,120 Speaker 3: He was working in tech of time, so it was 38 00:02:45,160 --> 00:02:48,320 Speaker 3: a lot of just you know, constant fluctuations, a lot 39 00:02:48,320 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 3: of moving around companies. 40 00:02:50,240 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 2: And so this was in this sort of you know 41 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:54,240 Speaker 2: tech boom, right. 42 00:02:54,520 --> 00:02:56,400 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, the dot com bubble. 43 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:01,320 Speaker 3: I was around seven, it was like two thousand and 44 00:03:01,400 --> 00:03:03,120 Speaker 3: four or five, So. 45 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,120 Speaker 2: You were going into the first grade when you moved 46 00:03:05,120 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: to Philly, and Kate was going into seventh. 47 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:10,919 Speaker 1: Yes, exactly. 48 00:03:12,040 --> 00:03:15,959 Speaker 3: I think that having my sister be five years my senior, 49 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:19,200 Speaker 3: I think it was just having like a second mom, 50 00:03:19,680 --> 00:03:21,120 Speaker 3: Like she really took care of me. 51 00:03:21,800 --> 00:03:24,079 Speaker 1: She prayed for me to be born. 52 00:03:24,240 --> 00:03:26,440 Speaker 3: She was always asking for little sister, and she had 53 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,320 Speaker 3: all these dolls she was dressing up. She was obsessed 54 00:03:29,320 --> 00:03:32,960 Speaker 3: with twins and Mary Kate, Ashley Olsen, and she just 55 00:03:33,000 --> 00:03:34,720 Speaker 3: really wanted to take care of me like that. 56 00:03:35,160 --> 00:03:36,280 Speaker 1: Now I idolized her. 57 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:40,240 Speaker 3: To me, she was just she was so courageous and 58 00:03:40,320 --> 00:03:45,120 Speaker 3: bold and adventurous, and she really challenged me. 59 00:03:45,280 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: She loved me. I didn't speak for a while when 60 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:52,240 Speaker 1: I was little. I was just so quiet. 61 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:55,320 Speaker 3: My grandparents keep talking and joking about how when I 62 00:03:55,360 --> 00:03:57,160 Speaker 3: was little, I would just stare everybody. 63 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:00,040 Speaker 1: My mom keeps saying, it's because. 64 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 3: I had so much to watch. There's always a show 65 00:04:01,640 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 3: going off. My sister, she was a performer. She was 66 00:04:04,160 --> 00:04:08,160 Speaker 3: just like ball of energy, so much light, so funny, 67 00:04:08,520 --> 00:04:12,200 Speaker 3: and I just was always entertained by her. 68 00:04:13,200 --> 00:04:14,880 Speaker 1: Growing up. My mom and my sister and. 69 00:04:14,920 --> 00:04:18,880 Speaker 3: I were super close, and my dad was really great too. 70 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:23,000 Speaker 3: You know, he's working a lot, so that was less 71 00:04:23,000 --> 00:04:26,080 Speaker 3: of an impression in my mind than my mom in 72 00:04:26,080 --> 00:04:30,960 Speaker 3: that sense, She's been the perfect mix between being your 73 00:04:30,960 --> 00:04:34,120 Speaker 3: friend and being your parent. Always, since I was little, 74 00:04:34,760 --> 00:04:37,600 Speaker 3: I've always felt like I could tell everything. My parents 75 00:04:37,920 --> 00:04:42,120 Speaker 3: were really conscientious about trying to give us everything that 76 00:04:42,200 --> 00:04:46,080 Speaker 3: they may not have had. They were just trying their best. 77 00:04:48,160 --> 00:04:52,040 Speaker 2: So when you look back now, or you know, for 78 00:04:52,160 --> 00:04:56,039 Speaker 2: these last years, as I think we just we do 79 00:04:56,120 --> 00:05:01,000 Speaker 2: as human beings, when something goes awry, we look for 80 00:05:01,080 --> 00:05:06,000 Speaker 2: the moment when we could have It's a fantasy, I think, 81 00:05:06,040 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: but you know, the moment where we could have stopped it, 82 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:10,240 Speaker 2: or it could have gone differently, or we could have 83 00:05:10,279 --> 00:05:14,080 Speaker 2: seen it as it was happening and sort of altered 84 00:05:14,120 --> 00:05:17,640 Speaker 2: its course. And you know, one of the things that 85 00:05:17,680 --> 00:05:22,600 Speaker 2: I think is so powerful about your story is throughout it, you, Kylie, 86 00:05:22,640 --> 00:05:26,200 Speaker 2: the adult, are looking for the sort of cracks and 87 00:05:26,240 --> 00:05:33,680 Speaker 2: fissures and the place where this exuberant, beautiful, dynamic older sister, 88 00:05:34,279 --> 00:05:37,960 Speaker 2: where the signs were, where she was exhibiting the beginnings 89 00:05:38,080 --> 00:05:42,920 Speaker 2: of maybe something being more than that, more complicated than that. 90 00:05:43,440 --> 00:05:47,960 Speaker 2: What would you say for you is the first memory 91 00:05:48,040 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 2: or the first moment as you look back on it 92 00:05:50,080 --> 00:05:54,200 Speaker 2: now of what that might have been, and also what 93 00:05:54,279 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 2: did it feel like at the time, So. 94 00:05:56,839 --> 00:06:00,480 Speaker 3: I would say that until we really moved to Phidelphia, 95 00:06:00,480 --> 00:06:04,080 Speaker 3: I don't remember anything being that awry. I think that 96 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:07,200 Speaker 3: my mom has talked about how my sister was in 97 00:06:07,240 --> 00:06:10,840 Speaker 3: trouble sometimes at school when she's younger, you know, just 98 00:06:10,960 --> 00:06:13,559 Speaker 3: getting into arguments other kids, or getting into little petty 99 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:15,880 Speaker 3: fights here and there. But she just had a really 100 00:06:15,920 --> 00:06:19,600 Speaker 3: bold personality, and I think at that time that seemed 101 00:06:19,640 --> 00:06:22,359 Speaker 3: like not a problem, maybe even a good thing that 102 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:26,560 Speaker 3: she could advocate for herself. And she was also really smart, 103 00:06:26,960 --> 00:06:28,839 Speaker 3: so she could get away with things. 104 00:06:29,440 --> 00:06:31,560 Speaker 1: But when we moved to Philadelphia. 105 00:06:31,120 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 3: She was thirteen and I was turning seven, and that's 106 00:06:35,120 --> 00:06:39,640 Speaker 3: when we started seeing a little more kind of concerning signs. Again, 107 00:06:40,040 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 3: it's just so hard to tell when you know what's 108 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:43,960 Speaker 3: normal it's not normal. 109 00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:46,680 Speaker 1: So it was it was more like skipping schools. 110 00:06:46,720 --> 00:06:50,200 Speaker 3: There was more partying, some mood swings, but a lot 111 00:06:50,240 --> 00:06:52,960 Speaker 3: of it was still typical teenage stuff. And I think 112 00:06:53,000 --> 00:06:57,560 Speaker 3: it's just it's so difficult to distinguish between what's going 113 00:06:57,560 --> 00:07:00,360 Speaker 3: on actually and where's a lie. 114 00:07:00,560 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: I know my mom has said before maybe if I. 115 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:05,920 Speaker 3: Was born first, if I was the first kid, they 116 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:08,599 Speaker 3: could have seen that some of this stuff wasn't normal. 117 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: At that point, they had nothing to compare it to either, 118 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,360 Speaker 1: so it all seemed fine, but still just a little 119 00:07:14,360 --> 00:07:15,800 Speaker 1: more concerning. Starting around them. 120 00:07:17,440 --> 00:07:21,600 Speaker 3: My sister, she had a lot of superstitions and signs 121 00:07:21,600 --> 00:07:26,560 Speaker 3: she believed in, and different little rituals she would kind 122 00:07:26,600 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 3: of include me in, and one of them was wishing 123 00:07:29,080 --> 00:07:33,800 Speaker 3: on eleven eleven and my whole life at eleven eleven 124 00:07:33,840 --> 00:07:36,000 Speaker 3: PM at eleven eleven. 125 00:07:35,680 --> 00:07:39,160 Speaker 1: AM, we would make a wish together. And when I 126 00:07:39,240 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: was seven, I remember the first time. 127 00:07:41,520 --> 00:07:43,760 Speaker 3: I had a wish that was that I wish my 128 00:07:43,800 --> 00:07:46,640 Speaker 3: sister gets better. And I think it's because I was 129 00:07:46,640 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 3: picking up on the fact that she was getting into 130 00:07:49,520 --> 00:07:53,720 Speaker 3: travel at school more and my parents were more concerned and. 131 00:07:53,520 --> 00:07:55,400 Speaker 1: That something was going on here, and I just want 132 00:07:55,480 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: my sister back and making sure she was okay. 133 00:07:58,240 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 3: And because I had this pattern of superstition and ritual established, 134 00:08:04,320 --> 00:08:07,679 Speaker 3: I ever since then kind of kept that wish the same. 135 00:08:08,480 --> 00:08:11,400 Speaker 3: So I'd always every eleven eleven, every birthday, every time 136 00:08:11,440 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 3: I had a wishbone or anything else, I would always 137 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,760 Speaker 3: ask for that one thing. So I think on some 138 00:08:16,880 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 3: level I was just picking up on what was going 139 00:08:19,200 --> 00:08:23,480 Speaker 3: on without actually being consciously or cognitively aware of it exactly. 140 00:08:29,040 --> 00:08:32,880 Speaker 2: In Kylie's memoir, she writes, my sister was the kind 141 00:08:32,920 --> 00:08:36,079 Speaker 2: of girl people write books about. I was the kind 142 00:08:36,080 --> 00:08:39,240 Speaker 2: of girl who read such books, who listened to such 143 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,880 Speaker 2: songs and wondered how a spark in one person could 144 00:08:42,960 --> 00:08:46,480 Speaker 2: like a flame in so many others. Suffice it to say, 145 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:51,120 Speaker 2: Kylie idolizes her big sister Kate, even when Kate gets 146 00:08:51,120 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 2: in trouble, even when Kate gets angry and violent. 147 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,880 Speaker 3: I think I was in third grade and friends sleeping over, 148 00:09:01,720 --> 00:09:03,320 Speaker 3: and my mom and my sister were going to fight, 149 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:05,880 Speaker 3: and I have no idea what the fight was instigated about. 150 00:09:05,920 --> 00:09:08,040 Speaker 1: I can't remember. I think maybe something to do with 151 00:09:08,080 --> 00:09:08,800 Speaker 1: her cell phone. 152 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,280 Speaker 3: My mom was taking it away because she got in 153 00:09:11,320 --> 00:09:14,960 Speaker 3: trouble or something along those lines. But it had escalated 154 00:09:15,200 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 3: into violence, with my sister hitting my mom and then 155 00:09:20,000 --> 00:09:23,000 Speaker 3: her having to actually go to the hospital because she 156 00:09:23,440 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 3: it was like her cheekbll and that got hurt. And 157 00:09:26,880 --> 00:09:29,560 Speaker 3: that was for me, as a little kid, the first 158 00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 3: time I remember having to shield somebody else from what 159 00:09:32,880 --> 00:09:36,440 Speaker 3: was going on and trying to keep my friend away 160 00:09:36,440 --> 00:09:39,120 Speaker 3: from it and have her not see what was going on, 161 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:40,480 Speaker 3: so she did you to go home and talk to 162 00:09:40,480 --> 00:09:43,120 Speaker 3: her parents and didn't become a bigger thing. And that 163 00:09:43,240 --> 00:09:45,560 Speaker 3: was really the last time I had friends sleep over 164 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:49,040 Speaker 3: because it was just it was too difficult to know 165 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 3: when my sister's temperament was going to get out of 166 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:54,600 Speaker 3: control and when these kind of angry outbursts and mood 167 00:09:54,600 --> 00:09:58,760 Speaker 3: swings would happen. From then on, it was easier to 168 00:09:58,840 --> 00:10:01,920 Speaker 3: keep everything secret and not thought that was going on 169 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:03,800 Speaker 3: and make sure that no one else got hurt too. 170 00:10:04,520 --> 00:10:05,880 Speaker 1: That was a big thing for my mom as well. 171 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:09,440 Speaker 1: I was just trying to protect Kate and also protect 172 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:11,760 Speaker 1: other people from Kate. Unfortunately. 173 00:10:13,200 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 2: So around that time, you actually come up with an 174 00:10:15,559 --> 00:10:19,080 Speaker 2: ingenious cover story for why you can't have sleepovers. 175 00:10:19,840 --> 00:10:24,040 Speaker 3: Yes, so I started telling people in my house was 176 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 3: haunted or it was a very childish probably thing to 177 00:10:27,559 --> 00:10:30,880 Speaker 3: start saying, but there was a very old home with 178 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,840 Speaker 3: you know those rickety floorboards and all those spooky things 179 00:10:33,840 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 3: that happened with old homes. That was a way for 180 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:38,240 Speaker 3: me to say that I didn't want to have a 181 00:10:38,240 --> 00:10:40,040 Speaker 3: sleepover at my house, Like why don't we go to 182 00:10:40,080 --> 00:10:42,920 Speaker 3: your house instead? Or after school don't we go to 183 00:10:42,960 --> 00:10:45,600 Speaker 3: your house to watch this movie or watch this show 184 00:10:45,679 --> 00:10:46,720 Speaker 3: and not mine. 185 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,040 Speaker 2: Yeah, and in some ways it occurred to me, I 186 00:10:49,080 --> 00:10:51,240 Speaker 2: mean in a way your house was haunted. I mean, 187 00:10:51,280 --> 00:10:54,719 Speaker 2: whether in a supernatural way or you know, haunted by 188 00:10:54,800 --> 00:11:01,880 Speaker 2: what was happening inside of it. Yeah, exactly, within this 189 00:11:02,000 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 2: haunted house, there are also pockets of joy. When things 190 00:11:05,800 --> 00:11:09,200 Speaker 2: are good, they're very, very good, and when they're bad, 191 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:13,800 Speaker 2: they're terrible. But the good moments contain real happiness that Kylie, 192 00:11:14,120 --> 00:11:17,040 Speaker 2: Kate and their mom share and also a kind of 193 00:11:17,160 --> 00:11:19,840 Speaker 2: playful magic that together they create. 194 00:11:21,360 --> 00:11:25,760 Speaker 3: I'm thinking it was December. I think I was around twelve, 195 00:11:26,679 --> 00:11:28,319 Speaker 3: and I'm not sure who had the idea first. 196 00:11:28,360 --> 00:11:30,560 Speaker 1: It is probably my sister. It was something she would 197 00:11:30,559 --> 00:11:31,000 Speaker 1: come up with. 198 00:11:31,520 --> 00:11:35,000 Speaker 3: But my mom, my sister and I had this, you know, 199 00:11:35,160 --> 00:11:38,040 Speaker 3: kind of ridiculous idea that we'd go around town and 200 00:11:38,280 --> 00:11:41,600 Speaker 3: put these little red dot stickers on the deer crossing 201 00:11:41,640 --> 00:11:44,400 Speaker 3: signs or neighborhood and make it into Rudolph Red Nose. 202 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:46,760 Speaker 1: Image. So we would. 203 00:11:47,200 --> 00:11:50,000 Speaker 3: We bought these little red dots at Staples and then 204 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:52,040 Speaker 3: we ran around town in the middle of the night. 205 00:11:52,240 --> 00:11:55,080 Speaker 3: I think it was probably like not that late realistically, 206 00:11:55,520 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 3: because I was. 207 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:57,440 Speaker 1: Little, I thought it was really late. 208 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:00,400 Speaker 3: And I remember like my sister had a lift me 209 00:12:00,440 --> 00:12:02,840 Speaker 3: on her shoulders so I could stick the sticker on there, 210 00:12:02,920 --> 00:12:06,400 Speaker 3: and we were just cracking up the entire time, trying 211 00:12:06,440 --> 00:12:08,520 Speaker 3: not to peer pants because we were laughing so hard. 212 00:12:09,240 --> 00:12:12,920 Speaker 3: And I remember that just being this another example of 213 00:12:12,960 --> 00:12:15,560 Speaker 3: even though things were bad at all these times, we 214 00:12:15,600 --> 00:12:16,800 Speaker 3: also were having fun together. 215 00:12:16,840 --> 00:12:17,760 Speaker 1: We were still family. 216 00:12:18,240 --> 00:12:22,000 Speaker 3: My sister kind of brought this like adventurous spirit out 217 00:12:22,000 --> 00:12:24,480 Speaker 3: in all of us that made us all laugh and 218 00:12:25,120 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 3: do something different than we normally would have done. 219 00:12:30,600 --> 00:12:34,440 Speaker 2: Underscoring these fun adventures, there is the prevailing sense of 220 00:12:34,480 --> 00:12:38,840 Speaker 2: something being wrong. Kylie internalizes this feeling and begins to 221 00:12:38,880 --> 00:12:43,760 Speaker 2: develop anxiety, particularly anxiety about her health and body. She 222 00:12:43,840 --> 00:12:47,360 Speaker 2: scrolls through web md, looking up all sorts of symptoms 223 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,680 Speaker 2: and treatments anything she can find. Without quite knowing what's wrong. 224 00:12:52,120 --> 00:12:56,040 Speaker 2: She thinks, whatever it is must live inside her. 225 00:12:57,000 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 3: I think a victoria that was trying to get control. 226 00:13:00,200 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 3: And also because you couldn't find on that was happening 227 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:04,520 Speaker 3: with my sister, it was like, what can I control 228 00:13:04,520 --> 00:13:06,920 Speaker 3: in this element? What's something that there are these like 229 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 3: insidious forces that are happening, are changing my sister? 230 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:11,920 Speaker 1: Am I going to change too? Is meaning bad going 231 00:13:11,880 --> 00:13:12,600 Speaker 1: to happened to me too? 232 00:13:12,600 --> 00:13:15,280 Speaker 3: And you're kind of on this like hyper vigilance of 233 00:13:15,320 --> 00:13:18,360 Speaker 3: always waiting for the next shoot to drop. And I 234 00:13:18,400 --> 00:13:20,000 Speaker 3: also think a big part of it was that I 235 00:13:20,120 --> 00:13:23,840 Speaker 3: was under so much stress, you know, watching these episodes 236 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,079 Speaker 3: of my sister, and that stress. 237 00:13:25,800 --> 00:13:28,080 Speaker 1: Does sometimes cause strange things. 238 00:13:28,040 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 3: Up in the body, Like I had school and lip 239 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,160 Speaker 3: nodes and I thought I had maybe cancers. My lymph 240 00:13:32,200 --> 00:13:34,440 Speaker 3: nodes were stolen my under my armpits or in my neck, 241 00:13:34,480 --> 00:13:37,400 Speaker 3: And it was probably because I was just really stressed out, 242 00:13:37,600 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 3: and you know that whole mind body connection that was 243 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:42,160 Speaker 3: we were dealing with a Kate, we were also dealing with, 244 00:13:42,280 --> 00:13:45,400 Speaker 3: you know, with ourselves trying to feel the stress. I 245 00:13:45,440 --> 00:13:48,800 Speaker 3: also remember thinking at one point, like, you know, everyone 246 00:13:48,840 --> 00:13:51,280 Speaker 3: has some kind of family secret they're hiding, like we're not. 247 00:13:51,320 --> 00:13:52,840 Speaker 1: We're all just not talking about something. 248 00:13:53,679 --> 00:13:55,680 Speaker 3: You know, other families are going through something similar and 249 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:57,920 Speaker 3: they were not saying either, So why shouldn't say anything? 250 00:13:59,080 --> 00:14:02,679 Speaker 2: And did you and your mom ever talked about it 251 00:14:02,760 --> 00:14:04,920 Speaker 2: at that time or was it not until later? 252 00:14:06,320 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 3: I think my mom and I did talk about that time. 253 00:14:08,520 --> 00:14:11,439 Speaker 3: I'm being very aware that something was off. 254 00:14:11,559 --> 00:14:12,680 Speaker 1: I was worried about. 255 00:14:12,440 --> 00:14:15,079 Speaker 3: Her, but I don't think I knew how I should 256 00:14:15,080 --> 00:14:17,319 Speaker 3: be worried yet, I think. And we didn't have a 257 00:14:17,320 --> 00:14:20,480 Speaker 3: diagnosis really for years, and there are things tossed around, 258 00:14:20,480 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 3: and we tried therapists. 259 00:14:21,560 --> 00:14:23,360 Speaker 1: So I knew that my sister, like you. 260 00:14:23,560 --> 00:14:25,480 Speaker 3: Was struggling with something, but it was just it was 261 00:14:25,520 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 3: so inconcrete at that point, and it was also just 262 00:14:28,200 --> 00:14:30,560 Speaker 3: growing pains, like just being a teenager. You never know 263 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:32,960 Speaker 3: if someone's going to grow out of something, and this 264 00:14:33,120 --> 00:14:36,920 Speaker 3: is just a phase, or it's hormonal or environmental, or 265 00:14:37,680 --> 00:14:40,480 Speaker 3: induced by drugs or alcohol use or the partying, Like 266 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,320 Speaker 3: you just have no idea what's actually happening. 267 00:14:48,760 --> 00:15:03,680 Speaker 2: We'll be right back around this time, Kate also begins 268 00:15:03,680 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: to have a series of accidents which result in head injuries. 269 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:10,560 Speaker 2: She has her first concussion at a high school party 270 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:14,400 Speaker 2: where she falls and hits her head. One night. Soon after, 271 00:15:14,920 --> 00:15:16,960 Speaker 2: she tries to sneak out of her bedroom window to 272 00:15:16,960 --> 00:15:19,400 Speaker 2: meet up with friends and she falls and hits her 273 00:15:19,400 --> 00:15:24,800 Speaker 2: head again. These falls are worrisome but not dire. Then, 274 00:15:25,280 --> 00:15:28,080 Speaker 2: when she's a freshman in college, it does become dire. 275 00:15:28,680 --> 00:15:32,040 Speaker 2: She hurts her head once more, and this time she 276 00:15:32,080 --> 00:15:35,920 Speaker 2: suffers a serious brain injury. She's put into an induced 277 00:15:35,960 --> 00:15:40,480 Speaker 2: coma for a number of days. Kylie is beside herself 278 00:15:40,520 --> 00:15:45,080 Speaker 2: with worry. Her anxiety spikes. She begins to literally see 279 00:15:45,120 --> 00:15:50,280 Speaker 2: red all around her. We use that expression seeing red, 280 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:56,200 Speaker 2: but you who, I think, all through your life saw 281 00:15:57,000 --> 00:16:00,320 Speaker 2: different periods of time and color in a certain way. 282 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:05,720 Speaker 2: You know, Marblehead was blue and Philadelphia was green. Now 283 00:16:06,160 --> 00:16:11,200 Speaker 2: you're seeing red, and Kate is very changed, and your 284 00:16:11,200 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 2: mother is like desperately searching for reasons for what this 285 00:16:17,720 --> 00:16:20,840 Speaker 2: behavior could possibly be. Is it because of the traumatic 286 00:16:20,880 --> 00:16:24,720 Speaker 2: brain injury? Is it because of lyme disease? Is it 287 00:16:24,720 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 2: because of the series of head injuries? Is it because 288 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:32,360 Speaker 2: of a condition that she had of polycystic ovarian syndrome. 289 00:16:32,920 --> 00:16:37,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, after the head injury, my sister's behavior just worsened dramatically. 290 00:16:37,520 --> 00:16:40,560 Speaker 3: And I think I was around like thirteen or fourteen, 291 00:16:41,200 --> 00:16:43,520 Speaker 3: and I remember my sister had like an episode I 292 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:45,320 Speaker 3: don't remember what again. 293 00:16:45,520 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: You know actually inspired it because these fits were just 294 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,200 Speaker 1: kind of senseless. They would would get triggered. 295 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:53,880 Speaker 3: By something we couldn't see or hear, something that was 296 00:16:53,880 --> 00:16:56,360 Speaker 3: going on inside her own head, so it's hardly low Kay, 297 00:16:56,400 --> 00:16:57,400 Speaker 3: exactly what happened. 298 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,720 Speaker 1: So I remember being in my family is like entrance 299 00:17:01,760 --> 00:17:06,360 Speaker 1: way of our house, and just being so overwhelmed, so. 300 00:17:06,400 --> 00:17:09,600 Speaker 3: Upset and honestly so angry that I saw red actually 301 00:17:09,640 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 3: and I had to sit down because I was going 302 00:17:11,040 --> 00:17:13,760 Speaker 3: to faint, and it really scared me because I didn't 303 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:15,920 Speaker 3: know that was out something actually happened. That was just 304 00:17:16,000 --> 00:17:19,119 Speaker 3: like a literary phrase people used, but you know, I 305 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,480 Speaker 3: really did physically see read that moment. And I think 306 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:26,320 Speaker 3: also like part of it too, was that I was twelve, thirteen, fourteen, 307 00:17:26,320 --> 00:17:28,440 Speaker 3: when all this is really escalating, and those are the 308 00:17:28,520 --> 00:17:31,200 Speaker 3: years when you're starting to develop your own sense of self, 309 00:17:31,800 --> 00:17:35,520 Speaker 3: and my sister's sense of self was deteriorating. So there 310 00:17:35,560 --> 00:17:37,320 Speaker 3: was this element where I was kind of starting to, 311 00:17:38,000 --> 00:17:40,000 Speaker 3: you know, voice my opinion more. 312 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,600 Speaker 1: Or challenge her more, and that wasn't helping anything either. 313 00:17:46,320 --> 00:17:49,480 Speaker 2: When Kate is at her worst, she's aggressive, hurling insults 314 00:17:49,480 --> 00:17:52,800 Speaker 2: at Kylie, and when Kate is her best, she's writing 315 00:17:52,840 --> 00:17:56,400 Speaker 2: notes to Kylie love letters to her little sister. Both 316 00:17:56,560 --> 00:18:02,920 Speaker 2: versions of Kate exist simultaneouslys are particularly insidious, though because 317 00:18:02,960 --> 00:18:05,320 Speaker 2: these happened during the years when Kylie's coming into her 318 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:09,320 Speaker 2: own forming her identity. When Kate tells Kylie that she's 319 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:12,919 Speaker 2: ugly or stupid, she's saying things that can't help but 320 00:18:13,040 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 2: embed themselves into Kylie's sense of self. 321 00:18:16,960 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: It was so hard when she could be really cruel, 322 00:18:19,240 --> 00:18:22,360 Speaker 3: and she also was really intuitive, kind of about what 323 00:18:22,400 --> 00:18:26,000 Speaker 3: you were most insecure about, so she could sense what 324 00:18:26,080 --> 00:18:28,679 Speaker 3: you were struggling with and she could use that against you. 325 00:18:28,840 --> 00:18:31,959 Speaker 3: She was still very spar in that sense, and it 326 00:18:32,000 --> 00:18:33,840 Speaker 3: was really hurtful, and I think those are the moments 327 00:18:33,880 --> 00:18:36,040 Speaker 3: where I just feel so grateful that I had my 328 00:18:36,119 --> 00:18:40,000 Speaker 3: mom and I had parents that were supportive, because you know, 329 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,760 Speaker 3: if I didn't have somebody who was reinforcing my self 330 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:45,120 Speaker 3: esteem and trying to make sure I was okay, those 331 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:47,440 Speaker 3: kind of insults when you were so young constantly that 332 00:18:47,800 --> 00:18:52,480 Speaker 3: verbal abuse can just deteriorate somebody. And it's still something 333 00:18:52,520 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 3: that I'm like trying to unlearn. There's still insecurities I 334 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:59,760 Speaker 3: have that definitely derive from those times. I think also 335 00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:02,800 Speaker 3: with my illness, and somebody can shift so easily and 336 00:19:02,920 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 3: one second she can be telling me I'm the best 337 00:19:05,600 --> 00:19:08,000 Speaker 3: sister in the world and writing these notes saying that 338 00:19:08,040 --> 00:19:10,119 Speaker 3: I'm so beautiful and she loves me more than anybody 339 00:19:10,160 --> 00:19:12,359 Speaker 3: else in the world and all these things. In the 340 00:19:12,400 --> 00:19:15,480 Speaker 3: next second, she's yelling at me, saying that I'm hideous 341 00:19:15,600 --> 00:19:18,640 Speaker 3: and that I'm stupid and no one likes me. And 342 00:19:18,720 --> 00:19:21,159 Speaker 3: you know, it's so hard to try in your brain 343 00:19:21,400 --> 00:19:23,200 Speaker 3: to combine. 344 00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,240 Speaker 1: Those two people. And I wish fact that. 345 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,920 Speaker 3: I had been able to differentiate more just between this 346 00:19:30,000 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 3: is the illness talking, you know, my sister is unwell, 347 00:19:32,560 --> 00:19:36,280 Speaker 3: and then also loving who she is otherwise, and because 348 00:19:36,320 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: I think it's just it's really hard to love somebody 349 00:19:38,600 --> 00:19:44,120 Speaker 3: when they're suffering or also inflicting suffering onto you. I 350 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 3: was around fourteen when we started kind of getting a 351 00:19:47,520 --> 00:19:51,199 Speaker 3: clearer diagnosis about schizophrenia, and I remember being, you know, 352 00:19:51,240 --> 00:19:53,720 Speaker 3: an early preteen and googling the term because I had 353 00:19:53,760 --> 00:19:54,679 Speaker 3: no idea how to spell it. 354 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:59,320 Speaker 1: Even to me, it sounded like some mysterious illness. You know, 355 00:19:59,359 --> 00:20:00,719 Speaker 1: I had to educate surrounded. 356 00:20:01,080 --> 00:20:02,720 Speaker 3: I don't think i'd really learned about it in school 357 00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:07,560 Speaker 3: at that point, so there was a big learning process 358 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,399 Speaker 3: around understanding what mental illness is and what's going on 359 00:20:10,480 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 3: here and back then too. I mean it wasn't that 360 00:20:13,119 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 3: long ago, but still we have way more resources now 361 00:20:15,800 --> 00:20:16,920 Speaker 3: than I think we did back then. 362 00:20:18,560 --> 00:20:22,680 Speaker 2: And was it a really a diagnosis that was arrived 363 00:20:22,680 --> 00:20:27,040 Speaker 2: at by ruling out every other avenue. 364 00:20:27,680 --> 00:20:30,360 Speaker 3: It's a diagnosis I remember we got after the head injury, 365 00:20:30,960 --> 00:20:33,679 Speaker 3: but it wasn't it still shifted, you know, I think 366 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:35,960 Speaker 3: different we didn't to so many doctors. He tried, My 367 00:20:36,000 --> 00:20:39,440 Speaker 3: mom just tried like every single thing possible, and different 368 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:42,959 Speaker 3: doctors would say different things. Some would say, this is bipolar, 369 00:20:43,480 --> 00:20:45,320 Speaker 3: this is schizophrenia, this is actually. 370 00:20:45,000 --> 00:20:46,120 Speaker 1: Bipolar disorder too. 371 00:20:46,240 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 3: I mean there were so many I think borderline was 372 00:20:49,600 --> 00:20:51,399 Speaker 3: thrown around there at one point. Like there's just so 373 00:20:51,440 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 3: many terms that it was always shifting that we still 374 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,600 Speaker 3: never had a clear picture in retrospect. To me, because 375 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:01,480 Speaker 3: I just recently I studied psychology and I just got 376 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,480 Speaker 3: my graduate degree as a clinical therapist. So with all 377 00:21:05,600 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 3: that extra education, I think I can say that it 378 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:12,040 Speaker 3: was probably schizophrenia. But there is a lot of overlap here, 379 00:21:12,560 --> 00:21:14,919 Speaker 3: and I just know she was having like active hallucinations 380 00:21:15,160 --> 00:21:17,760 Speaker 3: and that to me is like probably the most primary 381 00:21:17,840 --> 00:21:19,440 Speaker 3: symptom that was the most concerning. 382 00:21:20,640 --> 00:21:22,479 Speaker 2: One of the things that you write about is it 383 00:21:22,560 --> 00:21:25,320 Speaker 2: wasn't my story to tell, and I was thinking about 384 00:21:25,359 --> 00:21:28,600 Speaker 2: the burden or I'm wondering, I guess whether it felt 385 00:21:28,640 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 2: like a burden to beholding that secret at that age, 386 00:21:36,160 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 2: you know, and your friends had no idea what was 387 00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 2: going on, you know, within the walls of your home. 388 00:21:44,080 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, I think holding that secret it would 389 00:21:46,760 --> 00:21:49,480 Speaker 3: think it was important at the time because I did 390 00:21:49,520 --> 00:21:52,680 Speaker 3: feel a need to protect my sister's privacy and we 391 00:21:52,680 --> 00:21:54,400 Speaker 3: were in the same school district and we. 392 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:56,840 Speaker 1: Had, you know, similar friends. 393 00:21:57,280 --> 00:22:00,520 Speaker 3: My friend's older sister was friends with her with somebody, 394 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,280 Speaker 3: and it was just really important to me that, you know, 395 00:22:03,320 --> 00:22:07,600 Speaker 3: we can't handle Kate dealing with more stress, so we 396 00:22:07,680 --> 00:22:11,520 Speaker 3: have to keep this insulart and protect her. And for 397 00:22:11,640 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 3: me growing up, I think not having a lot of 398 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:15,200 Speaker 3: confidence and not being able. 399 00:22:15,080 --> 00:22:16,960 Speaker 1: To talk to about people about what was actually going 400 00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:19,280 Speaker 1: on just made me feel more isolated. 401 00:22:19,760 --> 00:22:22,520 Speaker 3: And I remember when I first looked up what the 402 00:22:22,520 --> 00:22:26,320 Speaker 3: word schizophrenia and ment the etymology of it actually is. 403 00:22:26,760 --> 00:22:29,200 Speaker 3: You know, schizo is is split and then frendia, which 404 00:22:29,240 --> 00:22:32,879 Speaker 3: is mind. It's like a split self. And I remember thinking, like, 405 00:22:33,000 --> 00:22:35,040 Speaker 3: you know, I'm kind of a split self right now, 406 00:22:35,600 --> 00:22:38,719 Speaker 3: I'm going to school and I'm trying my best and 407 00:22:38,760 --> 00:22:40,680 Speaker 3: you know, taking all the ap classes i can. I'm 408 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:43,280 Speaker 3: a pretty type a person, and I'm trying to be 409 00:22:43,359 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 3: fun and happy and be a normal kid. And then 410 00:22:45,440 --> 00:22:47,439 Speaker 3: I'm going home and I'm dealing with this really intense 411 00:22:47,480 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 3: stuff that I'm not able to talk about. And I 412 00:22:50,880 --> 00:22:52,960 Speaker 3: think a lot of people experience that, And that's the 413 00:22:53,000 --> 00:22:55,399 Speaker 3: whole part about a secret that can just kind of 414 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,600 Speaker 3: kill you as we're all keeping these secrets in different ways, 415 00:22:58,800 --> 00:23:01,040 Speaker 3: and then no one's talking about it, and that isolation 416 00:23:01,400 --> 00:23:07,040 Speaker 3: just breathes more loneliness. It was pretty soon af the 417 00:23:07,040 --> 00:23:09,800 Speaker 3: head injury that things escalated. I think it was like 418 00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,639 Speaker 3: a month after the head injury that she went to 419 00:23:12,720 --> 00:23:16,879 Speaker 3: the dean's office of her university at Drexel and accused 420 00:23:16,880 --> 00:23:20,000 Speaker 3: the dean of like thinking bad thoughts or something really 421 00:23:20,000 --> 00:23:22,640 Speaker 3: wild like that, and she got get out of school 422 00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 3: and then she her roommates were fighting with her, and 423 00:23:24,680 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 3: like it just happened really fast, and I don't think 424 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,680 Speaker 3: we've realized it when it was happening, just how quickly 425 00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 3: things are a spiraling after the head injury, until you 426 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 3: can look at it and you really write down and 427 00:23:34,280 --> 00:23:36,359 Speaker 3: you see that it's like, Okay, no, that was a 428 00:23:36,400 --> 00:23:37,080 Speaker 3: breaking point. 429 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:48,760 Speaker 2: We'll be back in a moment with more family secrets. 430 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:53,720 Speaker 2: After this breaking point, Cake comes home for some time, 431 00:23:54,160 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: and then she ends up living in her own apartment. 432 00:23:56,840 --> 00:24:00,160 Speaker 2: She's pingponging between a couple of different ways of living 433 00:24:00,200 --> 00:24:04,679 Speaker 2: on the level of her stability. She's also growing increasingly paranoid. 434 00:24:05,400 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 2: She's sure that people are staring at her or following her. 435 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 2: She hears voices to complicate matters. Often people are looking 436 00:24:14,040 --> 00:24:18,040 Speaker 2: at her or approaching her, but not with malintent. Kate 437 00:24:18,160 --> 00:24:21,040 Speaker 2: is a beautiful young woman who sometimes stands out in 438 00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:24,240 Speaker 2: a crowd, but through the lens of her mental illness, 439 00:24:24,720 --> 00:24:27,800 Speaker 2: these admirers are spies who were out to get her. 440 00:24:28,520 --> 00:24:32,080 Speaker 2: As her paranoia increases, her stability plummets. 441 00:24:34,040 --> 00:24:38,439 Speaker 3: It was January eighth, twenty fourteen, and I was turning 442 00:24:38,480 --> 00:24:43,119 Speaker 3: seventeen three days on the eleventh, so I remember that 443 00:24:43,160 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 3: time period. 444 00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:45,720 Speaker 1: Like Kate had been in out of group homes at 445 00:24:45,760 --> 00:24:46,200 Speaker 1: that point. 446 00:24:46,359 --> 00:24:50,560 Speaker 3: She had tried rehab centeries for her drinking problem as well. 447 00:24:50,600 --> 00:24:54,040 Speaker 3: I mean, we've been trying different treatments, and she was 448 00:24:54,040 --> 00:24:57,040 Speaker 3: living in an apartment by herself pretty close to her house. 449 00:24:56,840 --> 00:24:58,639 Speaker 1: And she'd recently been at home. 450 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:01,240 Speaker 3: She'd still say night sometimes because we were like a 451 00:25:01,240 --> 00:25:04,840 Speaker 3: five minute drive away. But that night in particular, I 452 00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,000 Speaker 3: remember that I was really stressed out because I had 453 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 3: an exam the next day, and I think retroactively again 454 00:25:12,000 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 3: looking at you know. 455 00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:15,360 Speaker 1: How much we try to control these things when things 456 00:25:15,440 --> 00:25:16,600 Speaker 1: aren't in our control. 457 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:18,880 Speaker 3: For me, that was grades, and I was pretty type 458 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,080 Speaker 3: A about getting all a's, and. 459 00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:22,719 Speaker 1: You know, having exam the next day was a really 460 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:23,280 Speaker 1: big deal to me. 461 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,600 Speaker 3: And my sister called my mom and she was upset 462 00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:28,679 Speaker 3: and she wanted to go to CBS. She wanted to 463 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 3: pick up some stuff, and my mom didn't want her 464 00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:34,120 Speaker 3: walking because it was pretty cold out, so she drove 465 00:25:34,160 --> 00:25:35,480 Speaker 3: by and she picked her up, and I went to 466 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:38,399 Speaker 3: CVS together and they got some advil something like that. 467 00:25:38,480 --> 00:25:41,680 Speaker 3: It wasn't a lot of stuff, and then my mom 468 00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 3: drove her home and she talks about us realizing that 469 00:25:45,600 --> 00:25:49,200 Speaker 3: moment that something was wrong. She could sense that Kate 470 00:25:49,320 --> 00:25:52,440 Speaker 3: wasn't normal, which again at this point, like we were 471 00:25:52,560 --> 00:25:56,000 Speaker 3: dealing with somebody who's aren't a lot of moodswings, but 472 00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:58,280 Speaker 3: that's something that was really wrong. That night, she just 473 00:25:58,280 --> 00:26:03,400 Speaker 3: seemed really depressed, despondent, and really quiet, which wasn't typical 474 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:06,320 Speaker 3: of her. And she was in the car with her 475 00:26:06,320 --> 00:26:07,920 Speaker 3: and I call my mom and I was like, can. 476 00:26:07,840 --> 00:26:08,320 Speaker 1: You come home? 477 00:26:08,359 --> 00:26:10,680 Speaker 3: Like, I'm home alone, I'm scared, the dogs are barking, 478 00:26:11,480 --> 00:26:14,440 Speaker 3: you know, really stressed out. So my mom dropped Kate 479 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:16,840 Speaker 3: off and everything was fine, and then she came home 480 00:26:17,000 --> 00:26:17,520 Speaker 3: to be with me. 481 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:25,800 Speaker 2: After Kate and Kylie's mom comes home, everything changes. Kate 482 00:26:25,880 --> 00:26:30,240 Speaker 2: goes missing, she disappears. The family is sick with worry 483 00:26:30,280 --> 00:26:33,320 Speaker 2: and uncertainty, and Kylie is wrought with guilt. 484 00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:37,880 Speaker 1: Because my birthday was in three days from that date. 485 00:26:38,080 --> 00:26:40,920 Speaker 3: I was planning a birthday party and it's the dinner 486 00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:43,200 Speaker 3: with some friends and I didn't invite my sister and 487 00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,920 Speaker 3: I was lying to her about it because I didn't 488 00:26:44,920 --> 00:26:47,480 Speaker 3: want upset her. And I remember I carried like that 489 00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,159 Speaker 3: guilt around with me as well, which is like a 490 00:26:49,240 --> 00:26:53,240 Speaker 3: much smaller guilt. But then that night, because I was 491 00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 3: the one who called my mom and because I pulled 492 00:26:55,880 --> 00:26:58,399 Speaker 3: her away, maybe she, you know, would have talked to 493 00:26:58,400 --> 00:27:00,840 Speaker 3: my sister more. Maybe she would have realized, who knows, 494 00:27:00,840 --> 00:27:01,880 Speaker 3: it would happened. 495 00:27:03,800 --> 00:27:07,320 Speaker 2: As time passes, the family still does not hear from Kate. 496 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:10,520 Speaker 2: Kylie and her mom go to Kate's apartment to try 497 00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:13,800 Speaker 2: to unravel the mystery of where she's gone. When they 498 00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 2: log into her computer, they find a chilling, heartbreaking series 499 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 2: of Google searches what happens when we die? Kate had 500 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:26,959 Speaker 2: searched how to kill yourself. She searched the word death 501 00:27:27,520 --> 00:27:30,680 Speaker 2: she searched. This is when Kylie and her mom begin 502 00:27:30,720 --> 00:27:34,040 Speaker 2: to understand what's happened. Soon they learned that Kate took 503 00:27:34,080 --> 00:27:37,119 Speaker 2: a taxi to the foot of the Benjamin Franklin Bridge 504 00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:41,520 Speaker 2: that night. Soon they find security footage showing that she 505 00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:45,000 Speaker 2: walked up to the high point and then she's gone. 506 00:27:45,960 --> 00:27:47,159 Speaker 2: They assume she's jumped. 507 00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,080 Speaker 1: I did feel all this guilt, and I think it 508 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: took me a lot to come to inclusion that. You know, 509 00:27:56,280 --> 00:27:57,800 Speaker 1: with suicide, everyone. 510 00:27:57,440 --> 00:28:00,760 Speaker 3: Feels guilt, and you can torture yourself looking for all 511 00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,200 Speaker 3: the things you did wrong, and not just that night, 512 00:28:03,240 --> 00:28:04,960 Speaker 3: but all the things before that night, and all the 513 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:07,399 Speaker 3: things you should have said that you didn't say, and 514 00:28:07,440 --> 00:28:11,879 Speaker 3: there's just so much regret there. I think it really 515 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,919 Speaker 3: tortured me for most of my life. 516 00:28:16,760 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 2: But Kylie yearns to find a way through this torture. 517 00:28:19,880 --> 00:28:22,959 Speaker 2: She will never stop grieving the mysterious loss of her sister, 518 00:28:23,600 --> 00:28:26,240 Speaker 2: but she will start healing, and she will do this 519 00:28:26,320 --> 00:28:29,399 Speaker 2: the way we all do, by attempting to make meaning 520 00:28:29,600 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 2: out of what has happened. There are many ways of 521 00:28:32,600 --> 00:28:36,480 Speaker 2: making meaning, of course, but in Kylie's case, she begins 522 00:28:36,480 --> 00:28:36,920 Speaker 2: to write. 523 00:28:39,760 --> 00:28:42,200 Speaker 3: I was going to be a writer, and before as 524 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:44,720 Speaker 3: long as I wish my sister gets better, I would wish, 525 00:28:45,000 --> 00:28:46,520 Speaker 3: I hope my dreams come true. And for me that 526 00:28:46,560 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 3: I has always been writing since I was like six seven. 527 00:28:49,080 --> 00:28:50,640 Speaker 3: I've always wanted to write a book. It's kind of 528 00:28:50,640 --> 00:28:52,040 Speaker 3: my biggest dream in my life. 529 00:28:52,560 --> 00:28:56,400 Speaker 1: And I remember a certain point when Kate gets really sick, 530 00:28:56,840 --> 00:28:59,280 Speaker 1: that I just dropped that from my wishes. 531 00:28:59,520 --> 00:29:01,720 Speaker 3: I wrote the wishes and all my prayers, and I 532 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:03,640 Speaker 3: would just say, like just can't get better, Like I 533 00:29:03,640 --> 00:29:05,160 Speaker 3: can't focus anything else besides. 534 00:29:04,920 --> 00:29:07,320 Speaker 1: Cap getting better. And I went to college. 535 00:29:07,480 --> 00:29:11,479 Speaker 3: I studied psychology and English, a double major, but I 536 00:29:11,520 --> 00:29:14,600 Speaker 3: was really focusing on psychology, and I really I was 537 00:29:14,640 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 3: taking jobs mental health field. I was volunteering and group 538 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 3: homes with women who had schizophrenia and homeless shelters and 539 00:29:21,920 --> 00:29:24,320 Speaker 3: doing all this research in the field because I think 540 00:29:24,360 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 3: I had this guilt and I still do that. You know, 541 00:29:26,680 --> 00:29:29,720 Speaker 3: my sister, we didn't save her, and like, how can 542 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 3: I help somebody else, or how can I make this count? 543 00:29:32,200 --> 00:29:33,760 Speaker 3: And for me, the writing just kind of fell to 544 00:29:33,760 --> 00:29:36,880 Speaker 3: the side. I did it myself. I never really submitted anything. 545 00:29:37,000 --> 00:29:38,040 Speaker 3: I wasn't pursuing it. 546 00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:39,240 Speaker 1: I was really going to. 547 00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,680 Speaker 3: Go and get my PhD in psychology and become a clinician, 548 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 3: and then maybe someday I would write a book about 549 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:45,719 Speaker 3: psychology or something. 550 00:29:46,200 --> 00:29:48,040 Speaker 1: But I wasn't really writing at that point that much. 551 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,920 Speaker 3: But I had taken a class creative nonfiction and my 552 00:29:52,040 --> 00:29:54,200 Speaker 3: teacher mentioned that there was a New York Times Modern 553 00:29:54,280 --> 00:29:56,000 Speaker 3: Love College essay contest. 554 00:29:56,240 --> 00:29:58,920 Speaker 1: And I had an earlier paper for that. 555 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,520 Speaker 3: Class that she liked, and she thought maybe I should 556 00:30:01,600 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 3: tune a little bit and then send it in. Also, 557 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,239 Speaker 3: at that point, every time I tried to write, you know, 558 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 3: these things were just coming up. 559 00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:09,320 Speaker 1: I couldn't not write about it. 560 00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 3: I was just like, in some form or other, I 561 00:30:12,080 --> 00:30:14,920 Speaker 3: would always want to talk about grief or mental illness, 562 00:30:15,080 --> 00:30:17,800 Speaker 3: or being a sister or being a sibling, and so 563 00:30:17,840 --> 00:30:20,320 Speaker 3: I'd written about my sister, and the essay was about 564 00:30:20,560 --> 00:30:25,160 Speaker 3: kind of how grieving has changed digital age, in the 565 00:30:25,200 --> 00:30:28,360 Speaker 3: sense that we now have Facebook active and Instagram active, 566 00:30:28,960 --> 00:30:31,160 Speaker 3: and all these pages we didn't have before to look at, 567 00:30:31,240 --> 00:30:33,200 Speaker 3: and you can still text somebody, you can still call 568 00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:36,280 Speaker 3: them and maybe even hear a voice message. It becomes 569 00:30:36,680 --> 00:30:39,480 Speaker 3: harder to accept that this person's gone when you're getting 570 00:30:39,480 --> 00:30:42,200 Speaker 3: a Facebook and notification saying that the birthday is coming up. 571 00:30:42,640 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 3: And for me, with somebody who disappeared without having that 572 00:30:45,760 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 3: we had evidence obviously, but not having you know, final proof, 573 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 3: not having a body, not having an autopsy, it was 574 00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:54,040 Speaker 3: just this big mystery my mind that I still had 575 00:30:54,080 --> 00:30:57,720 Speaker 3: this hope that, you know, maybe something else happened, maybe 576 00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:00,120 Speaker 3: my sister did get picked up by a car the 577 00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:02,320 Speaker 3: bridge instead of jumping, and she actually is living a 578 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,479 Speaker 3: whole other life and she's okay. 579 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:06,479 Speaker 1: And I was still this feeling. 580 00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,560 Speaker 3: So as part of my coping mechanism, I would text 581 00:31:09,600 --> 00:31:13,040 Speaker 3: her phone sometimes and I would or message her on Facebook, 582 00:31:13,040 --> 00:31:14,680 Speaker 3: and I would tell her about things that were going on, 583 00:31:15,280 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 3: because to me, I think it made it feel less 584 00:31:17,680 --> 00:31:20,040 Speaker 3: real if I could keep her updated, like if she 585 00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:22,520 Speaker 3: knew what was happening in the world and in my life. 586 00:31:22,600 --> 00:31:24,960 Speaker 3: It wasn't like she was really gone, and there was 587 00:31:24,960 --> 00:31:28,040 Speaker 3: this like you know, magical thinking, this cognage distortion in 588 00:31:28,080 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 3: my head that was saying, you know, it's gonna be 589 00:31:30,480 --> 00:31:33,040 Speaker 3: harder for her to come back if she has all 590 00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:36,560 Speaker 3: these memorials or like if she doesn't know what's happening. 591 00:31:36,600 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: So I would like try to keep her going. Even 592 00:31:38,440 --> 00:31:40,320 Speaker 1: though I knew, I think logically, like you know, we 593 00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:42,520 Speaker 1: knew what happened, there was still that kind of shred 594 00:31:42,560 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 1: of hope for me. 595 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:47,800 Speaker 3: So the essay I wrote was about that experience, and 596 00:31:48,640 --> 00:31:51,200 Speaker 3: I submitted it. It was like, really the second piece of 597 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 3: writing I'd ever really submitted in my life or anything. 598 00:31:55,400 --> 00:31:57,960 Speaker 3: And I remember being in my dorm room and I 599 00:31:58,000 --> 00:32:01,400 Speaker 3: was a senior in college and I just said a 600 00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,440 Speaker 3: prayer to my sister and I just said, if you 601 00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 3: don't want this out. 602 00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:08,120 Speaker 1: There, you know, if you're up there, if you can 603 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:09,360 Speaker 1: hear me, then. 604 00:32:09,360 --> 00:32:12,240 Speaker 3: Just don't have this get published. Their odds are getting 605 00:32:12,240 --> 00:32:14,920 Speaker 3: published were so low. There were like two thousand submissions 606 00:32:14,960 --> 00:32:16,480 Speaker 3: and one winner, and I was like, it's not going 607 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 3: to happen anyway, but like, just in case, cage, just like, 608 00:32:19,720 --> 00:32:21,800 Speaker 3: tell me now and I'll never write about you again. 609 00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:24,360 Speaker 3: I'll drop this and I'll let you be in peace. 610 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 3: I'll protect your privacy. Still in my head, I still 611 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:28,959 Speaker 3: had this like privacy to protect, and I still had 612 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,360 Speaker 3: this secret I was keeping, which is this image of 613 00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:34,560 Speaker 3: my sister who was this big personality, and I was 614 00:32:34,600 --> 00:32:37,760 Speaker 3: still trying to, you know, keep the hurt in people's 615 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,040 Speaker 3: minds that way, not exposed what was actually happening. 616 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,600 Speaker 1: So I said this prayer and then I ended up 617 00:32:43,640 --> 00:32:44,560 Speaker 1: winning the contest. 618 00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:47,160 Speaker 3: I found out when I was visiting my grandparents for 619 00:32:47,320 --> 00:32:49,760 Speaker 3: Easter in Naples, and. 620 00:32:49,880 --> 00:32:51,920 Speaker 1: It was the week of my sister's birthday. 621 00:32:52,680 --> 00:32:55,720 Speaker 3: So to me, that was like this big sign that 622 00:32:55,840 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 3: was like kind of go for it. And I think 623 00:32:58,640 --> 00:33:01,240 Speaker 3: that for me opened up only the world of writing again, 624 00:33:01,280 --> 00:33:04,600 Speaker 3: but also this feeling of connection with my sister that 625 00:33:04,800 --> 00:33:07,440 Speaker 3: I do still feel like we're doing things together, if 626 00:33:07,480 --> 00:33:10,360 Speaker 3: that makes sense. Maybe that's a logical, but I still 627 00:33:10,360 --> 00:33:12,959 Speaker 3: feel this really short connection and a lot of that 628 00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,760 Speaker 3: guilt was not alleviated but lessened by feeling like she 629 00:33:17,880 --> 00:33:20,800 Speaker 3: wanted me to honor her in some way. At the time, 630 00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 3: it felt like such a singular chaotic story, and we 631 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:25,440 Speaker 3: were so alone in it, and then you look outside 632 00:33:25,440 --> 00:33:27,360 Speaker 3: and you're like, wow, people are actually struggling with this. 633 00:33:27,480 --> 00:33:30,120 Speaker 1: Everyone's talking about it, and I think now being able 634 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:30,840 Speaker 1: to talk about. 635 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:33,160 Speaker 3: It was big for me because I don't have to 636 00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 3: protect my sister anymore, you know, like she's gone. My 637 00:33:36,200 --> 00:33:38,600 Speaker 3: mom and I came to that conclusion together that all 638 00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,120 Speaker 3: we have on each other and we don't have to 639 00:33:40,160 --> 00:33:42,880 Speaker 3: be protect each other anymore. So really it's about trying 640 00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:44,760 Speaker 3: to help people who can't talk now, who are so 641 00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,040 Speaker 3: actively having somebody struggle, who can't handle that burden, who 642 00:33:48,080 --> 00:33:49,680 Speaker 3: need somebody who can go out there and say like, 643 00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:51,800 Speaker 3: this is what was happening, and this is what it's 644 00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,120 Speaker 3: like to struggle with somebody who's dealing with these things 645 00:33:54,200 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 3: and how hard it is. 646 00:34:00,040 --> 00:34:04,440 Speaker 2: Ley's book begins with the following epigraph, All I can 647 00:34:04,520 --> 00:34:07,600 Speaker 2: hope is that it helps even just a single person, 648 00:34:08,200 --> 00:34:12,760 Speaker 2: even just for a moment. By the life path Kylie 649 00:34:12,800 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 2: has chosen for herself, both as a clinician someone who 650 00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,640 Speaker 2: studies mental illness, and having written this book, she is 651 00:34:19,719 --> 00:34:23,120 Speaker 2: creating hope and beauty out of the sorrow and chaos 652 00:34:23,400 --> 00:34:27,319 Speaker 2: of her sister's life. It doesn't erase the sorrow or 653 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:33,480 Speaker 2: the chaos, but it does help. Here's Kylie reading one 654 00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 2: last passage from the Perfect Other. 655 00:34:39,080 --> 00:34:41,320 Speaker 3: My sister is in the way I dress, the colors 656 00:34:41,320 --> 00:34:44,160 Speaker 3: I choose, how I am challenged to be a more original, 657 00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:47,480 Speaker 3: true reversion of myself. She is the moments when I 658 00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:51,080 Speaker 3: say yes to an adventure instead of no. I feel her, 659 00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:53,520 Speaker 3: when that song is playing in the car and everyone 660 00:34:53,560 --> 00:34:56,000 Speaker 3: is singing along and I'm reminded of what it is 661 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,400 Speaker 3: to be alive, Or when the fog girls in turning 662 00:34:59,480 --> 00:35:02,920 Speaker 3: this tree into skinny silhouettes, and the sun hangs low 663 00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,560 Speaker 3: in a red summer sky. I see her in what 664 00:35:06,640 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 3: is beautiful or interesting or sad, which is to say 665 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 3: that I see her in everything. She is nowhere tangible, 666 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:18,680 Speaker 3: which is to say that she is everywhere. We keep 667 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:22,520 Speaker 3: and keep and keep. We remember and remember and remember. 668 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:26,719 Speaker 3: We collect heart shaped shells and signs, and old notebooks 669 00:35:26,719 --> 00:35:31,120 Speaker 3: and recollections. We hold on memorize the lines of her tan, 670 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 3: slender hands, and the sound of her laugh, engraving ourselves 671 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:36,560 Speaker 3: to the smallest. 672 00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:38,120 Speaker 1: Details lest we ever forget. 673 00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:43,320 Speaker 3: We try to make amends, reason with ghosts, explain ourselves 674 00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,799 Speaker 3: to the wind, and then there comes a time we 675 00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:47,600 Speaker 3: must let go. 676 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,440 Speaker 2: Family Secrets is a production of iHeartRadio. Molly z Acre 677 00:36:06,600 --> 00:36:09,880 Speaker 2: is the story editor and Dylan Fagan is the executive producer. 678 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:13,120 Speaker 2: If you have a family secret you'd like to share, 679 00:36:13,520 --> 00:36:15,960 Speaker 2: please leave us a voicemail and your story could appear 680 00:36:15,960 --> 00:36:19,399 Speaker 2: on an upcoming episode. Our number is one eight eight 681 00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:23,600 Speaker 2: eight Secret zero. That's the number zero. You can also 682 00:36:23,680 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 2: find me on Instagram at Danny Ryder. And if you'd 683 00:36:28,560 --> 00:36:31,040 Speaker 2: like to know more about the story that inspired this podcast, 684 00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:33,319 Speaker 2: check out my memoir Inheritance. 685 00:36:53,040 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 3: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 686 00:36:57,360 --> 00:36:59,400 Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.