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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: November fourth, two thousand and nine, Wednesday, Grand Rapids, Michigan,

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Speaker 2: Oh my God. At a seven to eleven store, four

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Speaker 2: bodies are found by police just a little before midnight.

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Speaker 2: Where was Jamie Loftus during this horrible crime? That is

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Speaker 2: the question we're going to answer today on this episode

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Speaker 2: Behind the Bastards. I'm Robert Happens.

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Speaker 3: I was in high school. I was in high school.

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Speaker 2: We didn't all watch Cereal and learn that high schoolers

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Speaker 2: can murder.

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Speaker 4: Jay think maybe that we should just clear the air

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Speaker 4: at the beginning of the episode. I don't want to,

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Speaker 4: you know, I feel like I owe the audience an explanation.

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Speaker 4: I've seen the allegations going around, many of them AI generated, saying.

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Speaker 2: Things like all of them AYI generated.

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Speaker 3: Quote.

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Speaker 4: According to an episode of the podcast The Finders, Jamie

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Speaker 4: Loftus is involved in murders in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

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Speaker 3: Unquote.

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Speaker 2: God has made it easier to be to be the

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Speaker 2: kind of piece of shit that I am, and for

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Speaker 2: that reason, I'm excited for the future.

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Speaker 4: How bad could it be? Hopefully I lived till part four. Look,

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Speaker 4: my alibi is in early two thousand and nine or

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Speaker 4: in November on November fourth, two thousand and nine. I

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Speaker 4: was coming off of the rousing success of my Sarah

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Speaker 4: Palin Halloween costume, so.

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Speaker 3: I could not have possibly been in Grand Rapids.

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Speaker 4: I was in Brockton, celebrating my hilarious costume. And I

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Speaker 4: have like when Obama got elected the first time, I

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Speaker 4: had just tried birth control for the first time because

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Speaker 4: I like aspirationally thought that I might have sex at

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Speaker 4: some point, and I threw up during the inaugeration.

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Speaker 3: It seems like a statement. It wasn't. I was just sick.

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Speaker 2: Well, we've all gotten a fun lesson, a fun lesson

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Speaker 2: about how AI works and how easy it is if

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Speaker 2: you have a successful podcast to convince the Internet that

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Speaker 2: your friend committed a series of murders.

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Speaker 4: The first result on Google is now jamieloftis Grand Rapids.

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Speaker 5: It works.

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Speaker 3: The episode came out five hours ago.

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Speaker 2: It was we are recording this the day it dropped,

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Speaker 2: and I'm.

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Speaker 3: A full on murderer already.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Okay, well, thank you so much. I have like you

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Speaker 3: can consult my alibis.

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Speaker 4: And and you know, I always had a feeling that

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Speaker 4: podcasting would ruin my life.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and this has given me an idea of

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Speaker 2: folks friends at home every week, just send me money,

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Speaker 2: and whoever sends me the most money can also send

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Speaker 2: in the name of a friend they want framed for murder,

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Speaker 2: and I'll do it. You know, there don't appear to

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Speaker 2: be consequent is for this, No, not yet.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I do kind of wish mine with grand rapids.

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Speaker 1: Mine is just a variety of my name multiple times.

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Speaker 1: With age, Sophie ray lichtman age.

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Speaker 6: I'm settling age because it's an awful lot of people

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Speaker 6: are trying to find out how old you are and

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Speaker 6: there's really no good reason they'd be doing that.

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Speaker 3: You all, I'm ageless.

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Speaker 2: Fuck you.

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Speaker 4: I love those uh, I love those ones that are

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Speaker 4: like I like the ones where they speculate about whether

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Speaker 4: you're married and how much money you have and how

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Speaker 4: tall you are, because it's always wrong, like fight her,

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Speaker 4: like Jamie has five million dollars, she's four foot ten

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Speaker 4: and still a virgin, and you're like, fuck yeah, I

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Speaker 4: wish brother, that'd be great.

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Speaker 2: Well, Jamie. Speaking of short virgins, I don't think there

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Speaker 2: are any short versions in this in this series, because,

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Speaker 2: as we discussed in our previous episodes, this guy had

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Speaker 2: a lot of sex, or at least wanted interviewers in

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Speaker 2: nineteen ninety six to believe that impossible to say which

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Speaker 2: the thing.

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Speaker 4: We wanted people to believe a lot of things in

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Speaker 4: nineteen ninety six.

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Speaker 3: This is on the less offensive end of it.

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Speaker 2: Unfortunately, I will say, someone on the subreddit claims that

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Speaker 2: their grandma said that, yeah, people got laid like crazy

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Speaker 2: during World War Two. So you know, there's my AI

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Speaker 2: grade level of research into whether or not it was

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Speaker 2: true that people were having wild ass sext or in

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Speaker 2: the world.

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Speaker 4: Sorry, someone on the reddit's grandma said that people fucked.

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Speaker 3: During World War Yeah.

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Speaker 2: They were commenting on the podcast and were like, well,

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Speaker 2: you know, based on what to what Marian said about

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Speaker 2: all the crazy World War two sex, my grandma said

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Speaker 2: the same thing. So that's you know, two data points.

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Speaker 2: We could print that in the New York Times now,

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Speaker 2: if I'm understanding journalists them correctly serious.

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Speaker 1: Somebody was like, grandma fucked, and then you were like, great.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, I mean I guess if they are a grandma,

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Speaker 4: like they fucked, right, yeah, you don't become a grandma,

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Speaker 4: but you can't become a grandma not fucking.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Well I guess you could adopt anyways.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, anyway, let's uh for Grandma. I would watch that

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Speaker 2: movie story. So yeah, we when we left off our tale,

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Speaker 2: the story had blown up in the media. There were

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Speaker 2: all sorts of people speculating that not only was the

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Speaker 2: cult a bunch of Satanists, but they were trafficking children

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Speaker 2: across the country. The police were kind of in love

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Speaker 2: with hearing their own voices on Connie Chung and other

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Speaker 2: major television shows. Everybody was having a good time except

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Speaker 2: for six children, two arrested male cult members, and the

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Speaker 2: mothers of those children who were having much less of

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Speaker 2: a good time. Right, So the police started carrying out

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Speaker 2: raids on finders' properties back up north. Because it involved

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Speaker 2: the customs or interstate commerce, the Customs department wound up

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Speaker 2: being the guys who actually like did a lot of

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Speaker 2: the busts and stuff. They're not really busts because they

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Speaker 2: didn't find any evidence of crimes, but they went into

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Speaker 2: the properties and ransacked them, took a bunch of shit

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Speaker 2: away in bags. Particularly, they found a ton of computers

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Speaker 2: and advanced electronic equipment. This was the eighties, so we're

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Speaker 2: talking like word processing machines and stuff. But they wrote

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Speaker 2: about it like it was the KGB's spying operation. I'm

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Speaker 2: covered because this was the first computer anyone had ever seen.

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Speaker 4: It's like it reminds me of I mean, this is

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Speaker 4: much later, but like when you go back and watch

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Speaker 4: the first Fast and the Furious movie and you realize

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Speaker 4: that the electronics they're trafficking are just DVD players and

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Speaker 4: you're just like, oh, okay, Yeah, people just didn't know

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Speaker 4: what a computer was at this time.

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Speaker 3: You would go to jail over DVD players.

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Speaker 2: They didn't know what wasn't wasn't impressive. Nowadays, you can't

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Speaker 2: throw away a def D player. They won't let you.

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Speaker 4: These days, the computer will accuse you of murdering someone

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Speaker 4: in Michigan.

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Speaker 2: For sure. Yeah, yeah, yeah, huge amounts of progress I

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Speaker 2: am imagining because this is the eighties, and when I

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Speaker 2: think about the wire, they're all still using typewriters, So

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Speaker 2: I'm imagining at this point the police are still like

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Speaker 2: using the Flintstones bird that chisels onto a rock tablet.

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Speaker 2: That's how all crimes get reported in the eighties. So yeah,

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Speaker 2: they make a big deal about the fact that they

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Speaker 2: find a bunch of advanced electronic equipment. Read word processors

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Speaker 2: and fax.

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Speaker 3: Machines very suspicious.

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Speaker 2: The only real piece of there's two pieces of like

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Speaker 2: scary information. One of them there's still no explanation. They

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Speaker 2: found cages on the farm and claimed that the cages

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Speaker 2: were for putting children in. I never heard that either

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Speaker 2: refuted or addressed. I never saw any evidence as to

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Speaker 2: why they thought that. So maybe someone locked a kid

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Speaker 2: up in a cage. But also it's only referenced once

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Speaker 2: in a police report, and as we're going to cover,

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Speaker 2: everything in the police report was pretty much wrong. So

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Speaker 2: one of the things stated is that a journal and

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Speaker 2: this comes from a journalist's article, but it's probably a

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Speaker 2: journalist who was talking to a police officer that there

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Speaker 2: were photos of naked children in a bag that he

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Speaker 2: saw through the plastic in a bag being carried out

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Speaker 2: by the police. Now that sounds pretty bad, except for

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Speaker 2: these people were never charged with child pornography. Authorities would

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Speaker 2: later clarify that none was found. The photos were just

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Speaker 2: normal pictures of little kids. I think one of two

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Speaker 2: things happened. Either a cop lied to a journalist common story,

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Speaker 2: or some parents had pictures of their kids where their

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Speaker 2: kids weren't like fully clothed like most parents wind up having,

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Speaker 2: you know, it has a shirt off at summer they're

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Speaker 2: running around or whatever, and that site was going on.

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Speaker 4: Right, there's like those strange cases of people big like

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Speaker 4: charged with child pornography for pictures of themselves as a

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Speaker 4: child and all that time. Yeah, I mean, I don't

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Speaker 4: want to, like, you know, it's so tricky talking about

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Speaker 4: any of these cases, and it should be, but it

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Speaker 4: is like, you know, if if the police record is

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Speaker 4: mostly wrong, it's also very a very scary precedent. If

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Speaker 4: there is something to that allegation and they just simply

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Speaker 4: stopped following up on it, like that's also really bad.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, it's like it's worth investing again. And it

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Speaker 2: seems like this is probably a case. My guess is

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Speaker 2: that somebody saw some like unclear because again you're looking

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Speaker 2: through a trash bag, Like a photo of a kid

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Speaker 2: without their shirt on was like, oh my god, is

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Speaker 2: that child porn And it's like, no, it was a

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Speaker 2: kid running around a sprinkler in the summertime or whatever,

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Speaker 2: Like a parent took a picture of their child having

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Speaker 2: fun in the summer. Right, That's my guess based on

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Speaker 2: the fact that no charges of child pornography were ever

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Speaker 2: filed and police I tend to file charges for that

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Speaker 2: sort of thing. Yeah, they really do.

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Speaker 4: Uh, they really do. And I know and and their

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Speaker 4: track record is so bad. Have you ever told you

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Speaker 4: about the computer game I had to play in middle

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Speaker 4: school where you have to save a child your age

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Speaker 4: from being sex trafficked in southern California?

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Speaker 2: What it is?

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Speaker 3: The way it like pops into my mind.

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Speaker 4: It was it was called Missing, and it was like

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Speaker 4: I played it in like computer class. I will send

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Speaker 4: you the video. It was like this, you know, like uh,

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Speaker 4: like Choose your Own Adventure. That's very dark game where

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Speaker 4: a kid meets a guy on a message board and

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Speaker 4: is like sex trafficked and then it's like complicit in crimes.

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Speaker 3: Wait, I'm saying I'm putting it in the chat right now.

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Speaker 3: It's really bizarre.

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Speaker 4: And the the uh, the acting from the kids. Zach,

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Speaker 4: He's like, Hey, I'm Zach. I live in Toronto, my

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Speaker 4: parents got divorce recently, and I'm spending a lot of

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Speaker 4: time on my computer. And then anyways, he gets he

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Speaker 4: gets missing, and then you have to work with the

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Speaker 4: cops to find Zach and get him away from his

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Speaker 4: on his his online friendship with the villain whose name

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Speaker 4: is Phantasma.

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Speaker 2: Now, Jamie, yes, that doesn't sound like a thing you

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Speaker 2: should be able to do.

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Speaker 3: What play that game when you're twelve?

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Speaker 2: Make children play that game, Jamie, that doesn't sound okay

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Speaker 2: at all?

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Speaker 3: So bad? I agree with you. I don't know why,

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Speaker 3: but it was like.

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Speaker 4: There, it was like a three part computer class where

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Speaker 4: it's like you play a math game for twenty minutes,

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Speaker 4: you play a reading comprehension game for twenty minutes, and

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Speaker 4: then you try to save Zach's life for twenty minutes,

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Speaker 4: and then you have to go to the next class.

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Speaker 2: Well, at least the game has its priorities or something.

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Speaker 2: I know you see. This really shows the difference in

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Speaker 2: how dystopian things were when I was a kid and

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Speaker 2: when you were a kid. Because when I was that age,

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Speaker 2: we simply watched the Voyage of the Mimi, which starred

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Speaker 2: very very young child Ben Affleck and a huge jug

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Speaker 2: of peanut butter on a boat. That's an accurate description

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Speaker 2: of voyage of the meme. A lot of naked men

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Speaker 2: cuddling together, but not in a sex way. It was

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Speaker 2: a good show.

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Speaker 3: I'm thrilled to report I have not seen it.

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Speaker 2: Oh great stuff. A lot of people online are psyched

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Speaker 2: that I brought up the voyage of the meme. But God,

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Speaker 2: speaking of voyages, these children are on a voyage into

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Speaker 2: state custody because the police have apparently wrongly made claims

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Speaker 2: that they found cages and child pornography. One of the

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Speaker 2: journalists who reported on the bust of the farm quoted

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Speaker 2: customs officers Scott Hunt in an article he wrote. He

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Speaker 2: quoted Hunt as saying, it is our belief that these

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Speaker 2: kids were not kidnapped, but that their parents gave them

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Speaker 2: away because one of the rights of the Satanic organization

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Speaker 2: is that you give up your rights to your children,

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Speaker 2: and the leaders of this organization can do what they

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Speaker 2: want with your children. Now, this not based on anything, Jamie.

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Speaker 2: No one had told Hunt this. He had not found

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Speaker 2: evidence of this anywhere. This had not been claimed by anyone.

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Speaker 1: Uh.

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Speaker 2: This is just stuff that Hunt believed based on like

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Speaker 2: Oprah's shows about the Satanic panic that he'd watched. That's

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Speaker 2: why I don't know where his info comes from. But

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Speaker 2: no one told it to him because none of this

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Speaker 2: was real, and the finders never claimed to be a

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Speaker 2: Satanic organization.

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Speaker 4: It is truly stunning to me how many like just

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Speaker 4: misinformation crusades were either like low key begun by or

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Speaker 4: really perpetuated by an episode of Oprah.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't know where else this would have come from.

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Speaker 2: It's possible maybe that random anonymous parent who called the

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Speaker 2: cops made this claim, but like, no one who had

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Speaker 2: any knowledge of the group made this claim. None of

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Speaker 2: the kids made this claim, like, this is just something

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Speaker 2: this cop set told a reporter that helped ignite a

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Speaker 2: moral panic, which is great, it's really good.

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Speaker 4: And the reporter, what just didn't fact check it? They're like,

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Speaker 4: this sounds no.

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Speaker 2: Why would you fast check a cop? You just print

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Speaker 2: whatever they say.

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Speaker 3: It's true. It is their paper after all.

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Speaker 2: Now, there was a small amount of physical evidence, by

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Speaker 2: which I mean one rate of a finder's own home

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Speaker 2: turned out a drawing of a pentagram, So that's clear

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Speaker 2: evidence of And to be honest, I haven't seen this drawing.

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Speaker 2: I wouldn't be surprised if somebody drew a star of

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Speaker 2: David and one of the cops was like pentagram the devil.

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Speaker 2: Really no way to know. Given the quality of the

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Speaker 2: police work going on here. There was also a bunch

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Speaker 2: of flat stones in a backyard and something that is

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Speaker 2: described as a tombstone that may not have been. The

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Speaker 2: police called this a ritual space. Former residents of the

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Speaker 2: cold House were like, this was our garden. You know,

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Speaker 2: we had like stones, like a walking path in the garden. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I don't know, maybe it was a tombstone. I know

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Speaker 2: of at least two friends who have tombstones, like, you know,

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Speaker 2: fake ones in their garden.

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Speaker 3: Like I was about to.

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Speaker 4: Talk, I was about to talk shit, and then I realized,

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Speaker 4: I'm like, I literally have one within like arms lands exactly. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: I have a fake tombstone within arms reach. Yeah, it

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Speaker 4: is a normal thing to embarrassing.

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Speaker 2: That's a small amount of evidence to find in order

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Speaker 2: to say they were trading their children for sex. Like,

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Speaker 2: that's not a lot to base that claim from.

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Speaker 1: Right.

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Speaker 4: It's so fucking infuriating hearing how poorly these investigations are done.

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Speaker 2: Like it's yeah, okay, oh no, it is like blistering

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Speaker 2: incompetence going on here, and it's about to get incompetent

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Speaker 2: or which is.

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Speaker 3: Not a word oops, all incompetence.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. What makes this especially fucked up is that the

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Speaker 2: mothers of these kids tried as soon as they find

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Speaker 2: out what's happened, right, because you know, the guys who

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Speaker 2: get arrested get a call, they call the cold and

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00:16:00,440 --> 00:16:04,080
Speaker 2: like Mary and Petty's secretary has to start calling, getting

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Speaker 2: off all the moms who were like in different parts

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Speaker 2: of the country or city, like playing various games that

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Speaker 2: he's ordered them to play, and be like, hey, your

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Speaker 2: kids are in custody and we're suspected of trafficking them

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Speaker 2: to Mexico. Sorry about that.

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Speaker 3: Just checking in, Yeah, just checking in. Fuck.

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Speaker 2: So obviously, being moms, they immediately call the police, right

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Speaker 2: and to try to be like, hey, yeah, you know

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Speaker 2: these guys, our kids were with them with our permission.

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Speaker 2: Nothing's going on here. Please give us our children back.

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Speaker 2: But you know, Scott Hunt, that customs officer I quoted

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Speaker 2: from earlier making those claims about Satanism, was really fucking incompetent.

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Speaker 2: Scott Hunt skunt as well. No, okay, so no, let's

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Speaker 2: go with that.

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Speaker 3: I'm with you with you.

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Speaker 2: So, because of the media circus around the case, they're

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Speaker 2: not able to get through the phone lines to talk

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Speaker 2: to him. And I'm going to quote from John Cohen's

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Speaker 2: article describing what happened when the parents try to call

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Speaker 2: the police, and this reads like every parent's nightmare. When

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Speaker 2: the mothers called Scott Hunt at the Tallahassee Police Department

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Speaker 2: on Monday evening, they couldn't get through. Carolyn's on the

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Speaker 2: phone saying she's Beebe's mother, and she's met by snorts

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Speaker 2: and giggles, recalls Erico. That's one of the other mothers.

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Speaker 2: She's the two hundredth caller claiming these beautiful children. They

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Speaker 2: finally spoke to Tallahassee police, but Hunt still told the

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Speaker 2: media they had yet to hear from the mothers. I'll

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Speaker 2: never forgive him from that, says Erico. So, first off,

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Speaker 2: the cops laughed when the mothers called in it first

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Speaker 2: because so many people were calling in falsely claiming to

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Speaker 2: be the parents of those kids. And then when they

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Speaker 2: finally did talk to the police, Hunt just didn't report

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Speaker 2: that to the media. He just continued saying their parents

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Speaker 2: haven't gotten in touch, because I guess that was made

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Speaker 2: a better story for him to get on. Connie chung

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Speaker 2: with like, I don't know why he would lie about that,

340
00:17:51,080 --> 00:17:55,359
Speaker 2: but he did. So that's cool, m M, good stuff.

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Speaker 2: OK Now, it's not just the cops and the press. Here,

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Speaker 2: Petty is also to blame for a lot of this.

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Speaker 2: He reacted to the whole very serious situation with more

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Speaker 2: amusement than concern. Again, everything is kind of a game

345
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Speaker 2: to this guy, and that's how he treats the fact

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Speaker 2: that all of these women's children are now in custody.

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Speaker 4: Right, Yeah, it is kind of I mean, I guess

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Speaker 4: it is very in keeping with a cult like figure

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Speaker 4: to take things equally unseeriously, no matter how far are

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Speaker 4: they escalate. Yeah, just same exact energy brought when there's

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Speaker 4: children in danger.

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Speaker 2: And so you know, he gets on the phone with

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Speaker 2: all the mothers and he's like, well, this is another game.

354
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Speaker 2: In this game, the FBI is the game caller, and

355
00:18:36,760 --> 00:18:38,320
Speaker 2: you know, we just have to kind of play the

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Speaker 2: game they want to play. Now. The moms are like,

357
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Speaker 2: our kids are in custody in Tallahassee. We are all

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Speaker 2: flying to Tallahassee. And he is like, no, no, you

359
00:18:46,600 --> 00:18:49,719
Speaker 2: live in d C. You should stay in DC. So

360
00:18:49,760 --> 00:18:53,119
Speaker 2: he orders them not to go get their kids in Florida,

361
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Speaker 2: which pisses a lot of them off. This is actually

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Speaker 2: going to start a schism within the cult.

363
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Speaker 4: Yeah, no, shit, okay, so, but they're they're not so

364
00:19:01,000 --> 00:19:03,400
Speaker 4: far gone that they like.

365
00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,000
Speaker 2: They don't seem to be gone at all. That's the

366
00:19:08,000 --> 00:19:10,800
Speaker 2: saying okay again. One of the hard things to tell

367
00:19:10,800 --> 00:19:12,880
Speaker 2: about this is like the degree to which people are

368
00:19:12,920 --> 00:19:16,520
Speaker 2: like brainwashed or whatever. We'll talk with Araco some, but

369
00:19:16,680 --> 00:19:20,199
Speaker 2: like the attitude generally seems to be this was like

370
00:19:20,280 --> 00:19:23,000
Speaker 2: a fun game. I was playing, Like this whole cult

371
00:19:23,040 --> 00:19:24,639
Speaker 2: was like a fun thing to do with my friends

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Speaker 2: until they fucked with my kids and then it stopped

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Speaker 2: being fun. Like but they I'm just going to tell

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Speaker 2: the story. It's it's odd the way this pace is out. Okay, yeah, because.

375
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Speaker 3: This sounds like they're having fairly rational responses.

376
00:19:39,160 --> 00:19:42,879
Speaker 2: Yes, yes, again, this is not whatever else we can

377
00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:46,560
Speaker 2: say about this cult. It's not kind of exercising the

378
00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,120
Speaker 2: same degree of like mental control over at least most

379
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:52,480
Speaker 2: of its members as a lot of other cults we cover.

380
00:19:53,320 --> 00:19:55,040
Speaker 2: I don't know where you want to like lash that

381
00:19:55,119 --> 00:19:59,600
Speaker 2: out morally, but it is it is interesting. Yeah, speaking

382
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 2: of interesting, Jamie, Yep, Yeah, listen to this podcast. Ads.

383
00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:17,640
Speaker 2: Oh okay, yeah, and we're back. We're back.

384
00:20:17,680 --> 00:20:21,080
Speaker 4: I hope that they advertised that computer game I've tried

385
00:20:21,119 --> 00:20:22,360
Speaker 4: to buy it online.

386
00:20:22,800 --> 00:20:25,520
Speaker 3: I tried to buy it online. This is horrible.

387
00:20:25,560 --> 00:20:27,399
Speaker 4: I tried to buy it online last year because I

388
00:20:27,440 --> 00:20:29,920
Speaker 4: was just like, I need to remember.

389
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Speaker 3: How fucked up this?

390
00:20:31,280 --> 00:20:33,520
Speaker 4: Because it was so scary, and I remember there were

391
00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:36,040
Speaker 4: kids in class that were like, can we spend more

392
00:20:36,080 --> 00:20:39,359
Speaker 4: time on the Zach game? It just feels more urgent

393
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:43,880
Speaker 4: than math. And I couldn't find it. I got sent

394
00:20:44,040 --> 00:20:47,840
Speaker 4: a different game, a different mid Auts computer game about

395
00:20:47,920 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 4: child abduction, so there was more than one.

396
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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I you know, if you know me, you

397
00:20:54,040 --> 00:20:57,360
Speaker 2: know I love a good child. I don't know where

398
00:20:57,400 --> 00:20:58,960
Speaker 2: to continue this, Jamie.

399
00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:00,679
Speaker 3: All right, well just get back to the I just,

400
00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:01,160
Speaker 3: you know.

401
00:21:01,320 --> 00:21:05,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, let's get back to the podcast. Not talking about

402
00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:08,160
Speaker 2: Oh my god, Grand Rapids Michigan.

403
00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 3: No, I already told you where I was. Yeah, I've

404
00:21:11,680 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 3: been advised to not say more at this time.

405
00:21:14,280 --> 00:21:16,760
Speaker 2: I do, Sophie. Do you think we could make money

406
00:21:16,800 --> 00:21:20,520
Speaker 2: if instead of selling ads, we kind of like blackmail

407
00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:25,720
Speaker 2: advertisers with not associating their brand with famous killing sprees,

408
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,800
Speaker 2: using our audience as sort of like a weapon against them.

409
00:21:29,960 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 2: Is that a good idea for making money?

410
00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:34,920
Speaker 1: No, it's a good idea for ending this podcast and

411
00:21:35,240 --> 00:21:38,120
Speaker 1: all of our people losing their health for shirts and home.

412
00:21:38,280 --> 00:21:41,119
Speaker 2: Well, you and I'll hash that out behind the scenes,

413
00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:43,520
Speaker 2: but I feel like we can make some money do it.

414
00:21:42,840 --> 00:21:46,520
Speaker 3: I just vetoed it. I trust Sophie.

415
00:21:46,600 --> 00:21:49,400
Speaker 2: I mean, we didn't get sued over the blue apron thing.

416
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:50,840
Speaker 2: I think that means we're bulletproof.

417
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,639
Speaker 3: Sophie, we agreed to never discuss that.

418
00:21:54,320 --> 00:21:57,960
Speaker 2: Let's test it. Bulletproof coffee is still a product. I think,

419
00:21:58,160 --> 00:22:00,439
Speaker 2: why don't you see if you can associate them with

420
00:22:00,520 --> 00:22:03,520
Speaker 2: the Green River strangler. You know, let's just try it out, everybody.

421
00:22:03,600 --> 00:22:06,359
Speaker 2: Let's just try it out. What Sophie, I have gone

422
00:22:06,440 --> 00:22:07,320
Speaker 2: mad with power?

423
00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:11,120
Speaker 3: Yeah, coffee is still around.

424
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:13,800
Speaker 2: It is still around. Well, that's embarrassing.

425
00:22:13,920 --> 00:22:17,720
Speaker 1: People really liked that shit for like so many years,

426
00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:19,800
Speaker 1: and I was like, I had it.

427
00:22:19,800 --> 00:22:24,679
Speaker 2: Once and there's too much butter in that coffee. Yeah

428
00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:26,760
Speaker 2: I don't need that much butter in my coffee.

429
00:22:26,960 --> 00:22:29,760
Speaker 3: I just saw the Folders Incest commercial for the first

430
00:22:29,760 --> 00:22:31,280
Speaker 3: time a couple You seen it.

431
00:22:31,400 --> 00:22:33,440
Speaker 2: Oh, that is the best part of waking.

432
00:22:33,200 --> 00:22:38,560
Speaker 4: Up is your brother coming home from his creepy mission

433
00:22:38,560 --> 00:22:40,440
Speaker 4: trip so you can give him a big old kiss

434
00:22:40,480 --> 00:22:40,880
Speaker 4: on the lob.

435
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:44,000
Speaker 2: I love that he has just been in like Ethiopia

436
00:22:44,080 --> 00:22:46,760
Speaker 2: or somewhere and he's like, finally real coffee.

437
00:22:47,080 --> 00:22:49,120
Speaker 3: I know, bro, you were so many.

438
00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:51,880
Speaker 2: You were where coffee comes from? What is wrong with you?

439
00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:56,520
Speaker 4: There's so many errors made and there oh oh it

440
00:22:56,600 --> 00:22:57,240
Speaker 4: is what.

441
00:22:57,280 --> 00:23:01,960
Speaker 2: A text that brother inter make immediately after the ad

442
00:23:02,000 --> 00:23:09,000
Speaker 2: cuts off. Anyway, speaking first, speaking of mistakes, Petty makes

443
00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:11,600
Speaker 2: a series of mistakes here because not only does he

444
00:23:11,640 --> 00:23:14,280
Speaker 2: tell these moms don't go get your kids come to DC,

445
00:23:14,800 --> 00:23:19,240
Speaker 2: he orders his followers and particularly his like goofy male followers,

446
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:22,560
Speaker 2: who are all again playing a game, to respond to

447
00:23:22,600 --> 00:23:24,600
Speaker 2: the court case against them in a way that's like

448
00:23:25,040 --> 00:23:28,440
Speaker 2: it's designed, number one, not to be an efficient response,

449
00:23:28,480 --> 00:23:30,520
Speaker 2: and number two, it's designed to kind of fuck with

450
00:23:30,560 --> 00:23:34,040
Speaker 2: people's heads because he seems to find that funny. Like

451
00:23:34,400 --> 00:23:36,679
Speaker 2: I don't know exactly what his purpose here, but he

452
00:23:36,760 --> 00:23:39,800
Speaker 2: is not taking steps that you would take to try

453
00:23:39,800 --> 00:23:42,080
Speaker 2: and get your kids released as quickly as possible.

454
00:23:42,119 --> 00:23:44,800
Speaker 3: That's another question I have, Like what is he getting

455
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:45,600
Speaker 3: out of this?

456
00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:50,080
Speaker 2: I think he enjoys muddying the waters. He likes being

457
00:23:50,119 --> 00:23:52,159
Speaker 2: a prankster. He comes out of you know, we did

458
00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:54,480
Speaker 2: our episodes in the Illuminati last year, and we talked

459
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:58,199
Speaker 2: about the Discordians, right, these guys, one of whom was

460
00:23:58,240 --> 00:24:01,879
Speaker 2: really closely tied to the fucking Kennedy assassination. Who's like

461
00:24:01,960 --> 00:24:04,679
Speaker 2: reaction to being closely tied to a conspiracy was to

462
00:24:04,680 --> 00:24:07,159
Speaker 2: just make more conspiracies to like fuck with people.

463
00:24:07,440 --> 00:24:10,520
Speaker 3: I don't like this, Heath Ledger joker approach.

464
00:24:10,760 --> 00:24:15,080
Speaker 2: This is not I think it's fine. Potentially, if it's like, yeah,

465
00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:18,440
Speaker 2: I am being investigated by the government for killing the president,

466
00:24:18,480 --> 00:24:20,920
Speaker 2: maybe I'm going to like fuck around a little bit.

467
00:24:20,960 --> 00:24:23,240
Speaker 2: You're the one on the line. But when you're making

468
00:24:23,320 --> 00:24:26,320
Speaker 2: when you're like potentially endangering the ability of parents to

469
00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: get back their children, I think you're doing something bad.

470
00:24:29,080 --> 00:24:32,840
Speaker 3: You know, yeah, yeah, wow. And that's a really hot take.

471
00:24:32,880 --> 00:24:34,199
Speaker 3: But I think you were brave to say it.

472
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:35,800
Speaker 2: Thank you, Jamie, Thank you.

473
00:24:37,280 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 7: So.

474
00:24:37,640 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 2: One of the lawyers who's going to be representing the

475
00:24:39,840 --> 00:24:43,240
Speaker 2: Finders later tells John Cohen, the journalists that several members

476
00:24:43,240 --> 00:24:45,840
Speaker 2: of the group were after he was like retained to

477
00:24:46,280 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 2: represent them in this case, A bunch of Finders members

478
00:24:49,760 --> 00:24:52,440
Speaker 2: are sent over to like help him make the case

479
00:24:52,480 --> 00:24:55,280
Speaker 2: to defend them, and this is how he describes them.

480
00:24:55,680 --> 00:24:59,040
Speaker 2: They all had handlebar mustaches and dressed alike. I sent

481
00:24:59,119 --> 00:25:01,399
Speaker 2: them to the FSU library to get me books for

482
00:25:01,440 --> 00:25:03,919
Speaker 2: the case to explain their philosophy. They came back with

483
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:08,560
Speaker 2: books on psychology, India, American Indians, Samoan tribes, Chinese philosophy.

484
00:25:09,960 --> 00:25:11,479
Speaker 3: What are you talking about?

485
00:25:12,359 --> 00:25:17,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there, it's nonsense. I'm going to continue that

486
00:25:17,440 --> 00:25:21,360
Speaker 2: quote from Cohen's article. Right before the hearing, Walalborski, that's

487
00:25:21,400 --> 00:25:23,479
Speaker 2: the lawyer learned that the Finders men she had been

488
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:26,400
Speaker 2: working with had left town and were replaced by Steve Usden,

489
00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:29,320
Speaker 2: who is another member of the cult. She also got

490
00:25:29,320 --> 00:25:31,520
Speaker 2: the news that Petty had put a gag order on

491
00:25:31,600 --> 00:25:33,359
Speaker 2: the other two men who had come there, and that

492
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,960
Speaker 2: she was going to be fired. I said, okay, the

493
00:25:36,000 --> 00:25:38,720
Speaker 2: First Amendment issues haven't even been argued, and they stand

494
00:25:38,760 --> 00:25:42,119
Speaker 2: up and fired me. In court, Steve Ustin delivered a

495
00:25:42,119 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 2: proclamation from Petty. Our interests in the state's interests are

496
00:25:45,160 --> 00:25:47,879
Speaker 2: the same, he said, so we don't need counsel. Some

497
00:25:47,920 --> 00:25:50,720
Speaker 2: people practice law twenty or thirty years and never get fired.

498
00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 2: On television, Wilborski jokes, so, wow, that is not taking

499
00:25:56,560 --> 00:26:01,040
Speaker 2: the case. Firing your lawyer the day of then announcing

500
00:26:01,040 --> 00:26:04,760
Speaker 2: you're representing yourself, sending these weird mustache guys in costume

501
00:26:04,880 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 2: to do research. None of that is like taking it

502
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:09,320
Speaker 2: very seriously.

503
00:26:09,680 --> 00:26:12,719
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's treating it like you live in a B movie,

504
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:14,240
Speaker 4: Like that's absurd.

505
00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:18,919
Speaker 2: Yeah. So one of the moms calls Petty, and this

506
00:26:19,000 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 2: is how Paula Eriko, who's one of the other mothers,

507
00:26:21,600 --> 00:26:25,800
Speaker 2: describes this mother Livingstone, calling Petty, she begs him to

508
00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:28,960
Speaker 2: tell her what to do. He said, fire your attorney.

509
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:30,760
Speaker 2: If you called him and begged him and he told

510
00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 2: you to do it, you can't say no. She was

511
00:26:32,800 --> 00:26:34,840
Speaker 2: in agony. She really loves her son and she knew

512
00:26:34,880 --> 00:26:36,879
Speaker 2: what would happened the way I knew what would happen

513
00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:38,720
Speaker 2: if I fired my attorney. It wouldn't be in the

514
00:26:38,720 --> 00:26:41,159
Speaker 2: best interest of her children. So like, these women are

515
00:26:41,200 --> 00:26:44,479
Speaker 2: calling and crying, like begging him to not make them

516
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:47,400
Speaker 2: fire their attorneys, and he's being like, lay off your attorney.

517
00:26:47,680 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 2: And this is what causes a split, because some of

518
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 2: these women fire their representation and like go with Petty,

519
00:26:53,280 --> 00:26:55,400
Speaker 2: and some of them are like, no, fuck you, I'm

520
00:26:55,400 --> 00:26:58,280
Speaker 2: gonna do whatever. I think we'll get my kid back. Fastest.

521
00:26:58,520 --> 00:26:58,800
Speaker 3: Right.

522
00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is again just like interesting that they're that

523
00:27:03,920 --> 00:27:06,919
Speaker 4: he doesn't have so title hold that it's it's not

524
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,760
Speaker 4: one of those stories where parents will actively not act

525
00:27:09,760 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 4: in the best interests of their child because yeah, he

526
00:27:13,640 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 4: says so.

527
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 2: Okay, yes some of them do, when some of them don't.

528
00:27:17,240 --> 00:27:17,560
Speaker 3: Okay.

529
00:27:17,720 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 2: Anyway, that's obviously this chaos. The fact that lawyers are

530
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:24,040
Speaker 2: getting hired and fired and like there's they're they're putting

531
00:27:24,119 --> 00:27:27,560
Speaker 2: in statements into court based on like Buddhist philosophy and shit.

532
00:27:27,880 --> 00:27:30,679
Speaker 2: That is part of where some of the disinformation comes from,

533
00:27:30,800 --> 00:27:33,080
Speaker 2: a lot of it also comes from, as we noted earlier.

534
00:27:33,560 --> 00:27:36,920
Speaker 2: Once this story blows up, hundreds of random American dip

535
00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:40,080
Speaker 2: shits conspiracy theories, people who again watch the same Oprah

536
00:27:40,119 --> 00:27:44,119
Speaker 2: special as that customs agent guy and grew paranoid about it.

537
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 2: They start clogging the police phone lines with their own

538
00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,960
Speaker 2: theories about satanic pedophiles. One of the Scott Hunt, the

539
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,520
Speaker 2: customs officer says, I had seventy five reporters waiting skunt

540
00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,640
Speaker 2: I had seventy five reporters waiting for me in the lobby.

541
00:27:58,720 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 2: We logged four hundred and fifty ten phone calls to

542
00:28:00,760 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 2: me in two days. They were bringing in overtime people

543
00:28:03,359 --> 00:28:07,679
Speaker 2: to help take messages, and yeah, these are like just

544
00:28:08,240 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 2: a lot of this is just pure nonsense. They've got

545
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:14,000
Speaker 2: all these different organizations, the National Center for Exploited Children,

546
00:28:14,320 --> 00:28:17,640
Speaker 2: Children's Clearing House, the National Child's Safety Council, the National

547
00:28:17,680 --> 00:28:21,560
Speaker 2: Association of Missing Children, all like canvassing on this case,

548
00:28:21,640 --> 00:28:25,280
Speaker 2: trying to find information about these kids and their parents,

549
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:28,240
Speaker 2: even though the parents have contacted the police, and generating

550
00:28:28,280 --> 00:28:31,600
Speaker 2: this like huge amount of like false info. And also,

551
00:28:31,640 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 2: because this is America, somebody calls in a bomb threat

552
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:36,520
Speaker 2: on the safe house where the police are holding the kids.

553
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: May have been a cult member. We don't really know.

554
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:45,320
Speaker 2: It's just chaos right now, right. Yeah, So everything beyond

555
00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,800
Speaker 2: the initial busybody claims who said that they were Satanists

556
00:28:49,840 --> 00:28:52,040
Speaker 2: because she thought that would get a response, and the

557
00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,800
Speaker 2: human services investigator who claimed that there was proof of

558
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:59,280
Speaker 2: sexual abuse. Everything else that's like claimed in the initial

559
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:02,400
Speaker 2: days after the case breaks about like abuse and ritual

560
00:29:02,440 --> 00:29:06,000
Speaker 2: altars and cages and stuff. All of that info comes

561
00:29:06,000 --> 00:29:10,600
Speaker 2: from one guy Ramone Martinez, a junior custom service agent.

562
00:29:10,760 --> 00:29:14,680
Speaker 2: So we have one the initial claim of satanism comes

563
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:16,600
Speaker 2: from a mom who had never met any of these

564
00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:19,000
Speaker 2: guys and was just trying to get someone to do

565
00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 2: something because she was worried about the kids. The neighbor, right,

566
00:29:22,080 --> 00:29:24,800
Speaker 2: this is the neighbor. The claim that humans that children

567
00:29:24,840 --> 00:29:29,400
Speaker 2: were molested comes from a human services investigator who misheard

568
00:29:29,600 --> 00:29:31,960
Speaker 2: or lied about what a doctor said when a doctor

569
00:29:32,040 --> 00:29:33,600
Speaker 2: was like, there's a couple of things we should check

570
00:29:33,680 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 2: up on. Might be evidence of abuse, might not be

571
00:29:36,240 --> 00:29:38,760
Speaker 2: everything else. The claim that like kids were locked in cages,

572
00:29:38,800 --> 00:29:41,720
Speaker 2: that there's pictures of naked children, that there's ritual altars,

573
00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:44,680
Speaker 2: and children are being traded. All of that, the source

574
00:29:44,760 --> 00:29:49,080
Speaker 2: comes from a police report by Customs Service Agent Ramone Martinez.

575
00:29:49,560 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 2: Now that sounds pretty serious because that's a federal agent

576
00:29:53,920 --> 00:29:59,760
Speaker 2: making some really really horrifying claims. However, other federal agents

577
00:29:59,800 --> 00:30:02,040
Speaker 2: get to weigh in on this too, And here's how

578
00:30:02,080 --> 00:30:06,719
Speaker 2: a later FBI report summarizes Ramon's claims. United States Customs

579
00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:09,959
Speaker 2: Service Agent Blank they're talking about Martinez claims to have

580
00:30:10,000 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 2: observed a substantial amount of computer equipment and documents purportedly

581
00:30:13,120 --> 00:30:17,760
Speaker 2: containing instructions for obtaining children for unspecified purposes. The instructions

582
00:30:17,760 --> 00:30:21,240
Speaker 2: allegedly included the impregnation of female members of the community,

583
00:30:21,440 --> 00:30:26,120
Speaker 2: purchasing children, trading children, and kidnapping them. So that is

584
00:30:26,720 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 2: like how they summarize his claims. But there's no evidence.

585
00:30:30,160 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 2: They're like, we don't write.

586
00:30:31,520 --> 00:30:34,440
Speaker 3: I'm like, where is this coming from. You do have

587
00:30:34,600 --> 00:30:35,680
Speaker 3: to prove.

588
00:30:35,600 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 2: Something, Yes, you have to show and that's what the

589
00:30:37,920 --> 00:30:41,280
Speaker 2: FBI says. They're like, well, we asked him what this

590
00:30:41,440 --> 00:30:43,920
Speaker 2: is based on, and he didn't have anything other than

591
00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,760
Speaker 2: the police report he wrote, Like, he's claiming that he

592
00:30:46,840 --> 00:30:49,960
Speaker 2: found documents about how to trade in traffic children and

593
00:30:50,000 --> 00:30:53,600
Speaker 2: none of these are ever seen by anyone else. Okay,

594
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:58,560
Speaker 2: So when it comes to the conspiracy theories about the finders,

595
00:30:59,000 --> 00:31:02,080
Speaker 2: every conspiratory or you'll take you find takes this guy

596
00:31:02,480 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 2: very seriously. Now, the FBI comes to the conclusion that, like,

597
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: there's no evidence for any of this. The physical evidence

598
00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 2: that he claims he saw that was recovered from the

599
00:31:11,720 --> 00:31:14,680
Speaker 2: farm and from the house does not match the descriptions

600
00:31:14,680 --> 00:31:15,719
Speaker 2: in his police report.

601
00:31:15,960 --> 00:31:19,840
Speaker 4: I hate when the FBI is the most reasonable party present.

602
00:31:20,120 --> 00:31:23,080
Speaker 3: That's like, that's a sign that you're on a dark path.

603
00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:26,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, And like what they do find, there's some weird

604
00:31:27,040 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: essays and on stuff on child rearing that they find,

605
00:31:30,280 --> 00:31:32,760
Speaker 2: which is part of like they're these like because again

606
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:36,280
Speaker 2: this is like an experimental cult, like they're experimenting with

607
00:31:36,400 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 2: like all these different ways, like is it better to

608
00:31:38,680 --> 00:31:40,760
Speaker 2: raise children if you raise them communally, you don't send

609
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,680
Speaker 2: them to school, and like that's kind of weird. It's

610
00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,320
Speaker 2: not maybe not great to experiment on your kids, we

611
00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 2: could say, but it's not a child trafficking guide, right,

612
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:52,320
Speaker 2: So he is he sees these weird essays on like

613
00:31:52,440 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 2: new age family rearing, and he just kind of says, ah,

614
00:31:55,880 --> 00:31:59,200
Speaker 2: these are these are guides to sex trafficking children, and

615
00:31:59,240 --> 00:32:01,960
Speaker 2: it's you know, there's it's like pamphlets on how petty

616
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:05,840
Speaker 2: thinks pregnancy should be handled. And again it's very new agy.

617
00:32:05,880 --> 00:32:07,680
Speaker 2: You know what if we take these vitamins and do

618
00:32:07,720 --> 00:32:10,480
Speaker 2: a natural birth instead of a birth this way, it's

619
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 2: like the kind of life hack shit that you find

620
00:32:12,840 --> 00:32:16,720
Speaker 2: all over the internet now, But it's not instructions for

621
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 2: ritual sex abuse of children.

622
00:32:18,960 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: Well, if that's the bar, then terrific.

623
00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:28,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. So the wingnut interpretation of Martinez's claims is well

624
00:32:28,640 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 2: represented from an article I found on an incredibly credible

625
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:36,840
Speaker 2: website Gnostic Warrior Quote. Martinez wrote that he was unable

626
00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:39,480
Speaker 2: to review the evidence after multiple attempts, and said that

627
00:32:39,480 --> 00:32:42,520
Speaker 2: he was eventually told by a confidential, unnamed informant within

628
00:32:42,560 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 2: the DC Police the investigation into the finders has become

629
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 2: an internal CIA matter. No further will be available and

630
00:32:49,240 --> 00:32:53,640
Speaker 2: no further action will be taken, So that's good. US

631
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:57,080
Speaker 2: Customs Officer, Martinez wrote on April second, nineteen eighty seven,

632
00:32:57,160 --> 00:33:00,760
Speaker 2: I arrived at MPD at approximately nine am. Detective Bradley

633
00:33:00,800 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: was not available. I spoke to a third party who

634
00:33:02,920 --> 00:33:04,400
Speaker 2: was willing to discuss the case with me on a

635
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 2: strictly off the record basis. I was advised that all

636
00:33:07,280 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: the passport data had been turned over to the State

637
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,600
Speaker 2: Department for their investigation. The State Department in turn advised

638
00:33:12,640 --> 00:33:14,800
Speaker 2: the MPD that all travel and use of the passports

639
00:33:14,800 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 2: by the holders of the passports was within the law

640
00:33:17,080 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 2: and no action would be taken. This included travel to Moscow,

641
00:33:20,320 --> 00:33:23,040
Speaker 2: North Korea, and North Vietnam from the late nineteen fifties

642
00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:26,000
Speaker 2: to the mid nineteen seventies. The individual further advised me

643
00:33:26,040 --> 00:33:29,280
Speaker 2: of circumstances which indicated that the investigation into the activity

644
00:33:29,320 --> 00:33:32,040
Speaker 2: of the finders had become a CIA internal matter. The

645
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:35,040
Speaker 2: MPD report has been classified secret and was not available

646
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 2: for review.

647
00:33:38,480 --> 00:33:40,240
Speaker 3: This is such a clusterfuck.

648
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,920
Speaker 2: It is it is, And what he's talking about there,

649
00:33:42,920 --> 00:33:45,200
Speaker 2: this is like passport. That's as far as I can tell,

650
00:33:45,240 --> 00:33:48,320
Speaker 2: that's Petty's passport. So one of the things will we

651
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,320
Speaker 2: get back into, like oh, maybe there is some conspiracy here.

652
00:33:51,800 --> 00:33:54,160
Speaker 2: From the fifties to the seventies, Petty is visiting the

653
00:33:54,160 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 2: Soviet Union, North Korea, and North Vietnam, which is like

654
00:33:58,320 --> 00:34:03,160
Speaker 2: a difficult time to visit those countries as an American citizen, right, yes, yes,

655
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,600
Speaker 2: And so the CIA becomes aware of him as a

656
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 2: result of that, And it's unclear are they aware of

657
00:34:10,239 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 2: him because he was traveling to those countries at their behest?

658
00:34:13,640 --> 00:34:15,520
Speaker 2: Did they become aware of him because they saw an

659
00:34:15,560 --> 00:34:17,799
Speaker 2: American traveling to those countries and wanted to know what

660
00:34:17,840 --> 00:34:20,759
Speaker 2: the fuck was going on, like why was he going there?

661
00:34:20,800 --> 00:34:23,759
Speaker 2: And knowing Petty, it's entirely possible he was just curious.

662
00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:25,759
Speaker 2: But this is some of the shit that gives the

663
00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:28,719
Speaker 2: conspiracy legs because you get these like he seems to

664
00:34:28,800 --> 00:34:31,200
Speaker 2: have been traveling to some really weird fucked up places

665
00:34:31,400 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 2: that got him on the government radar. And this guy

666
00:34:34,400 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: Ramon Martinez, this customs agent who is himself a conspiracy theorist,

667
00:34:38,239 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: finds this out as he's starting to suspect that this

668
00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:44,160
Speaker 2: is a big child molestation conspiracy, and it seems it

669
00:34:44,239 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 2: like deepens his suspicions, right right, So yeah, that's cool now.

670
00:34:51,800 --> 00:34:55,400
Speaker 4: It's I mean, it is just like stunning, how many

671
00:34:55,440 --> 00:34:58,799
Speaker 4: like every time a new party is introduced into this

672
00:34:58,880 --> 00:35:01,280
Speaker 4: investigation it gets worse.

673
00:35:02,440 --> 00:35:06,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and it's you know. He Martinez also claims, quote,

674
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,080
Speaker 2: I was advised that the FBI had withdrawn from the

675
00:35:09,080 --> 00:35:12,320
Speaker 2: investigation several weeks prior, and that the FBI Foreign counter

676
00:35:12,360 --> 00:35:15,680
Speaker 2: Intelligence Division had directed MPD not to advise the FBI

677
00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,840
Speaker 2: Washington Field office of anything that transpired. Now that we

678
00:35:19,920 --> 00:35:23,880
Speaker 2: can say, the FBI says is untrue. Right. The FBI

679
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:26,239
Speaker 2: claims that is not why we did not withdraw from

680
00:35:26,239 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 2: the investigation. We did not direct MPD not to advise

681
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,759
Speaker 2: the Washington Field office of anything that happened. None of

682
00:35:32,760 --> 00:35:35,880
Speaker 2: that is true. Their reports state quite bluntly that nothing

683
00:35:35,960 --> 00:35:39,319
Speaker 2: Martinez said was verified, right, that he was just kind

684
00:35:39,320 --> 00:35:41,839
Speaker 2: of full of shit, like definitely full of shit. And

685
00:35:41,880 --> 00:35:44,480
Speaker 2: in the FBI language they say he was full of

686
00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:48,560
Speaker 2: fucking shit. And the FBI basically says, we don't see

687
00:35:48,560 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 2: any evidence of a legal activity whatsoever. Maybe some questionable

688
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:57,839
Speaker 2: parenting tactics, but nothing beyond that. Washington, DC police come

689
00:35:57,880 --> 00:36:00,640
Speaker 2: to the same conclusion. And as a spoiler, no member

690
00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 2: of the Finders is ever convicted of a crime.

691
00:36:03,280 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 4: However, Oh, I genuinely, Robert, I let you tell me

692
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:08,640
Speaker 4: these stories.

693
00:36:08,680 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 3: I don't. I don't look it up in the interceding week.

694
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,240
Speaker 2: Yeah, no one, no one, no, because there's no evidence

695
00:36:15,280 --> 00:36:19,919
Speaker 2: that any of them broke any loss. Now, okay, there's

696
00:36:20,000 --> 00:36:22,520
Speaker 2: actually there are some suggestions that like they may have

697
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 2: done some arson and harassing of former members.

698
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:28,759
Speaker 3: Thought the arson. We haven't talked about the arson today.

699
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:30,880
Speaker 2: No one knows anything about it, like the police just

700
00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:32,799
Speaker 2: kind of I don't think it ever got reported. It

701
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:35,160
Speaker 2: just got told to the police after the fact when

702
00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:37,440
Speaker 2: they started interviewing former members who were like, yeah, and

703
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 2: somebody's house burned down after they left. Maybe that was related.

704
00:36:40,719 --> 00:36:43,600
Speaker 2: Maybe it was the fact that they made beds out

705
00:36:43,600 --> 00:36:48,160
Speaker 2: of petroleum in the eighties. I don't know. Impossible to

706
00:36:48,239 --> 00:36:50,960
Speaker 2: say was this was this a cult attack or was

707
00:36:51,000 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 2: this someone sleeping with a cigarette in their mouth?

708
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:58,080
Speaker 3: And yeah, and sometimes it is both.

709
00:36:58,600 --> 00:37:02,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, which is why I recommend always sleep with

710
00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 2: a lit cigarette in your mouth. People. You know it's true.

711
00:37:05,320 --> 00:37:08,040
Speaker 2: It's good. That's the best kind of fire alarm because

712
00:37:08,080 --> 00:37:11,080
Speaker 2: you'll feel it if the fire starts real fast.

713
00:37:13,040 --> 00:37:16,520
Speaker 4: I miss a good old arson insurance scam that happened

714
00:37:16,520 --> 00:37:18,799
Speaker 4: in my neighborhood when I was growing up, and it

715
00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,920
Speaker 4: was like a regionally specific one. They're like, oh, she

716
00:37:22,120 --> 00:37:24,320
Speaker 4: had a Yankee candle on her bed.

717
00:37:25,160 --> 00:37:27,759
Speaker 3: Oh why, I know. You know when you have the

718
00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:29,799
Speaker 3: Yankee candle on your bed and then.

719
00:37:29,719 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 2: The house burns down for sure.

720
00:37:32,200 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 3: And then you have a new, better house across town.

721
00:37:34,520 --> 00:37:35,680
Speaker 3: I hate when that happened.

722
00:37:35,760 --> 00:37:39,719
Speaker 2: My last name comes from an arson scam. Do tell well, Yeah,

723
00:37:39,760 --> 00:37:42,520
Speaker 2: when my family first came here, my great grandpa, like

724
00:37:42,560 --> 00:37:44,640
Speaker 2: the first member of our family to come from Italy

725
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:49,200
Speaker 2: in like the twenties, either was involved with the mob

726
00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,520
Speaker 2: or was running an insurance scam that the mob wasn't

727
00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 2: cut in on, and so they rolled on him to

728
00:37:57,040 --> 00:37:59,640
Speaker 2: the cops. It's unclear which, but he was like burning

729
00:37:59,680 --> 00:38:02,600
Speaker 2: down barber shops first his own and then other people's

730
00:38:02,600 --> 00:38:05,960
Speaker 2: for the insurance money. And he got arrested and his

731
00:38:06,040 --> 00:38:08,920
Speaker 2: wife was so ashamed that she moved the family across

732
00:38:08,960 --> 00:38:11,759
Speaker 2: the country and changed our last name, which is why

733
00:38:11,760 --> 00:38:14,680
Speaker 2: people on the suburb that were like, his last name's Welsh,

734
00:38:14,680 --> 00:38:16,879
Speaker 2: but he claims to be Italian. That's because my real

735
00:38:16,960 --> 00:38:21,520
Speaker 2: last name is not my legal last name. That, yeah,

736
00:38:21,680 --> 00:38:26,279
Speaker 2: is incredible. Good stuff. Isn't that fun? Good family? Yeah,

737
00:38:26,360 --> 00:38:28,279
Speaker 2: we love to see it. You know what else we

738
00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:29,320
Speaker 2: love to see, Jamie?

739
00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:31,000
Speaker 3: What do we love to see?

740
00:38:31,320 --> 00:38:33,600
Speaker 2: We love to see the products and services that support

741
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:34,400
Speaker 2: this podcast.

742
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:36,440
Speaker 3: Oh ain't that the truth?

743
00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:42,880
Speaker 6: Ah?

744
00:38:42,880 --> 00:38:47,239
Speaker 2: And we are back. So the good news Jamie is

745
00:38:47,280 --> 00:38:50,439
Speaker 2: that our friend the Gnostic Warrior was right about one thing,

746
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,360
Speaker 2: which is that the CIA were definitely involved with the Finders.

747
00:38:54,600 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 3: Wow.

748
00:38:55,320 --> 00:38:58,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, this is again where we take it. There's so

749
00:38:58,840 --> 00:39:01,560
Speaker 2: many turns in this, like they are for sure in

750
00:39:01,680 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: play to some extent. It is just really unclear do

751
00:39:05,600 --> 00:39:05,880
Speaker 2: we know?

752
00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:08,080
Speaker 3: Yeah? It was like do we know to what extent?

753
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,720
Speaker 3: At which point? Like where?

754
00:39:10,239 --> 00:39:12,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, anything I'm going to verify. I'm going to start

755
00:39:12,800 --> 00:39:15,120
Speaker 2: with like what we can verify, right, what we know

756
00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:19,359
Speaker 2: were actual connections to Petty and the Finders with the CIA. Right.

757
00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: The biggest and most obvious one of them is that

758
00:39:21,800 --> 00:39:24,840
Speaker 2: his wife works for the CIA. Right. I think I

759
00:39:24,960 --> 00:39:27,800
Speaker 2: called her an agent earlier. She's not like a literal

760
00:39:27,800 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 2: field agent as far as I can tell. But I

761
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:31,439
Speaker 2: also don't know what her job was. I just don't

762
00:39:31,480 --> 00:39:34,160
Speaker 2: think they had female agents during the time when she

763
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,560
Speaker 2: was in the CIA. But she works in the CIA

764
00:39:36,680 --> 00:39:40,239
Speaker 2: for a while. That is definitely the case. And when

765
00:39:40,239 --> 00:39:44,319
Speaker 2: the FBI does their first investigation into the Finders while

766
00:39:44,360 --> 00:39:47,080
Speaker 2: the court case is still active, they see Martinez claiming that,

767
00:39:47,200 --> 00:39:50,880
Speaker 2: like the CIA is involved and like that was trying

768
00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:53,480
Speaker 2: to stop the investigation. So the FBI reaches out to

769
00:39:53,520 --> 00:39:57,480
Speaker 2: the CIA, right, because they're both federal agencies, you know,

770
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:58,480
Speaker 2: that's the prey normal thing.

771
00:39:58,560 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 3: Federal agencies. They're and you know, like fuck with the

772
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:05,320
Speaker 3: world and kill people and yeah, they're well.

773
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 2: And they also crucially they hate each other. The FBI

774
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:10,760
Speaker 2: and the CIA do not get along because they're always

775
00:40:10,800 --> 00:40:15,680
Speaker 2: fighting for money. Right, So the FBI is like, yeah,

776
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:18,280
Speaker 2: maybe the CIA is involved with this guy his wife

777
00:40:18,360 --> 00:40:20,279
Speaker 2: was in. We should reach out and see if the

778
00:40:20,320 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: CIA is doing some fucked ub shit. This is not

779
00:40:23,000 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 2: all that long after they have a big fight over

780
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: a bunch of MK ultra stuff, because it leads to

781
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:32,719
Speaker 2: like the CIA fucking with FBI investigations. So the FBI like, hey,

782
00:40:32,840 --> 00:40:36,719
Speaker 2: is this shit you and the CIA does not say no,

783
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,399
Speaker 2: I'm going to read you first. First, I'm gonna start

784
00:40:39,400 --> 00:40:42,320
Speaker 2: with the first reference to the CIA and the FBI's records.

785
00:40:42,560 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 2: This is from a section summarizing different law enforcement investigations

786
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:50,240
Speaker 2: into the cult. So like Maryland police, you know, DC police, FBI,

787
00:40:50,280 --> 00:40:54,759
Speaker 2: they're like summarizing each of the investigations. Central Intelligence Agency investigation.

788
00:40:55,120 --> 00:40:57,920
Speaker 2: Although the CIA claims their only involvement was that and

789
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,800
Speaker 2: then several words are blanked out was a former employee

790
00:41:00,800 --> 00:41:03,319
Speaker 2: of the agency, so it's clearly their only involvement was

791
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:06,440
Speaker 2: that Marion's wife was a former employee. They stated that

792
00:41:06,480 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: they were monitoring the investigation from the beginning, and then

793
00:41:09,080 --> 00:41:12,000
Speaker 2: another sentences blanked out, so we don't get much there.

794
00:41:12,400 --> 00:41:16,640
Speaker 2: But the FBI files also disclose a DC Metropolitan Police

795
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,680
Speaker 2: report which reads this way, At approximately fifteen thirty hours,

796
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:25,840
Speaker 2: Detective Blank spoke with Special Agent Blank, referencing any contact

797
00:41:25,840 --> 00:41:28,200
Speaker 2: the members of the Finders may have had with the agency.

798
00:41:28,280 --> 00:41:31,440
Speaker 2: Special Agent Blank guarded but Frank and his responses. He

799
00:41:31,560 --> 00:41:35,239
Speaker 2: confirmed that Blank Isabelle now deceased, was an employee of

800
00:41:35,280 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: the agency from nineteen fifty until you know that that's

801
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,799
Speaker 2: Marion's wife. When as far investigation was treading on anybody's

802
00:41:41,840 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: toes out there, he replied sort of. He acknowledged that

803
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:49,000
Speaker 2: they have someone working on the case since it first

804
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:51,640
Speaker 2: broke in the news media. He also stated that the

805
00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:54,319
Speaker 2: agency is aware that during the period of nineteen sixty

806
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 2: nine to nineteen seventy one, Blank traveled to Moscow, North Korea,

807
00:41:57,800 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 2: and North Vietnam. So what what comes out here is

808
00:42:01,400 --> 00:42:04,160
Speaker 2: this detective says, are we treading on your toes by

809
00:42:04,160 --> 00:42:07,200
Speaker 2: investigating this cult? And the CIA says sort of, And

810
00:42:07,239 --> 00:42:10,560
Speaker 2: then they clarify that they have assigned an agent to

811
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,640
Speaker 2: the case when the story broke, And that's backed up

812
00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,000
Speaker 2: by the fact that the FBI summarizes a CIA investigation

813
00:42:17,200 --> 00:42:20,200
Speaker 2: into the Finders, Right. So all the CIA is saying

814
00:42:20,239 --> 00:42:22,319
Speaker 2: there is that like, you're kind of treading on our

815
00:42:22,320 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 2: toes because we know that we're being accused of being

816
00:42:24,480 --> 00:42:27,359
Speaker 2: involved and we're looking into it. However, you can also

817
00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:31,239
Speaker 2: see how the CIA responding sort of to a detective

818
00:42:31,280 --> 00:42:34,839
Speaker 2: asking is this your guys would lead to a lot

819
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,239
Speaker 2: of conspiracies that doesn't look good.

820
00:42:37,280 --> 00:42:42,280
Speaker 4: And it's also just like, uh, the CIA, I honestly

821
00:42:42,360 --> 00:42:45,200
Speaker 4: kind of appreciate their candor there because they're just like, yeah,

822
00:42:45,239 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 4: we've done so many fucked up things in the interceding years.

823
00:42:48,280 --> 00:42:49,680
Speaker 2: We're going to have to check the books.

824
00:42:49,719 --> 00:42:53,520
Speaker 3: We're actually like it's probably, but like we just want

825
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:54,120
Speaker 3: to be sure.

826
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. It's like it's like when I wake up after

827
00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:58,840
Speaker 2: a blackout and someone's like, did you piss on the

828
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: side of my car? And I'm like, I don't know,

829
00:43:00,760 --> 00:43:03,359
Speaker 2: let me let me consult my notes on last night.

830
00:43:03,880 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 7: That's entirely possible based on historical record, it's likely I did,

831
00:43:09,920 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 7: but I want to do my confirm yeahah, take a

832
00:43:14,680 --> 00:43:16,680
Speaker 7: piss strip to it, see if it's real.

833
00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:19,480
Speaker 2: And this also it's interesting to me too that this

834
00:43:19,560 --> 00:43:22,479
Speaker 2: detective says that the CIA told him like this guy,

835
00:43:22,760 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 2: Mary and Petty traveled out of the country to a

836
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:28,359
Speaker 2: bunch of communist states from sixty nine to seventy one.

837
00:43:28,600 --> 00:43:30,440
Speaker 2: It's interesting that they would just say that during a

838
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:33,600
Speaker 2: phone call. So that's weird. You get why all of

839
00:43:33,640 --> 00:43:36,200
Speaker 2: that causes people to be like, something, what the fuck

840
00:43:36,280 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 2: was going on here? I'm kind of like, what the

841
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:39,520
Speaker 2: fuck was going on here?

842
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:39,719
Speaker 4: Right?

843
00:43:39,800 --> 00:43:41,000
Speaker 2: That's suspicious as hell.

844
00:43:41,239 --> 00:43:42,280
Speaker 3: It's deeply weird.

845
00:43:42,760 --> 00:43:45,560
Speaker 2: Now that said, everyone who knew Petty during this time

846
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 2: was like, yeah, he would. He loved pretending to be

847
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: a spy and making other people pretend to be a spy.

848
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,239
Speaker 2: He may have been traveling like North Korea just to

849
00:43:53,320 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 2: pretend to be a spy. He may have been LARPing. Right,

850
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,600
Speaker 2: anything is possible, Almost anything is possible. Now. The second

851
00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,120
Speaker 2: half of that police report makes it clear that the

852
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:07,840
Speaker 2: detective in the case also did not take the CIA's

853
00:44:07,880 --> 00:44:10,640
Speaker 2: answers at face value, which is very rational when you're

854
00:44:10,640 --> 00:44:14,279
Speaker 2: dealing with the CIA quote. As a practical matter, what

855
00:44:14,400 --> 00:44:17,440
Speaker 2: is not being said is as important as what Special

856
00:44:17,440 --> 00:44:20,640
Speaker 2: Agent Blank has said. Special Agent Blank acknowledge that we

857
00:44:20,680 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 2: are treading on their toes and that they have had

858
00:44:22,320 --> 00:44:24,800
Speaker 2: someone working on the case since February fifth, when it broke.

859
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:27,600
Speaker 2: They apparently have a vested interest in Blank and or

860
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:30,040
Speaker 2: the group. I think that's Petty right, and or the group.

861
00:44:30,320 --> 00:44:33,000
Speaker 2: They have not contacted any of the investigating agencies where

862
00:44:33,040 --> 00:44:34,919
Speaker 2: they have been working on the case. They are also

863
00:44:35,000 --> 00:44:37,760
Speaker 2: aware that Blank traveled to prohibited countries during a period

864
00:44:37,800 --> 00:44:40,960
Speaker 2: of hostilities that could only have been arranged by them. Finally,

865
00:44:40,960 --> 00:44:43,919
Speaker 2: he stated that, and then there's like two sentences blanked out.

866
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,439
Speaker 2: This could explain a lot about this group's funding, which

867
00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:48,560
Speaker 2: we have been unable to document at this point. So

868
00:44:48,600 --> 00:44:50,800
Speaker 2: does that mean the CIA was sending these guys money,

869
00:44:50,840 --> 00:44:52,680
Speaker 2: because that's what it seems like from the police reports,

870
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:54,320
Speaker 2: but anything could be in those sentences.

871
00:44:55,280 --> 00:45:01,920
Speaker 4: It really it's a crimes medlive by some of the

872
00:45:02,000 --> 00:45:04,200
Speaker 4: least reliable narrators on the planet.

873
00:45:04,680 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 2: Now, and again it's really unclear did the CIA say

874
00:45:08,800 --> 00:45:11,960
Speaker 2: something or did he just interpret this as them saying

875
00:45:12,000 --> 00:45:14,760
Speaker 2: something that could be determined as them funding it, because

876
00:45:14,800 --> 00:45:17,319
Speaker 2: like we know that a bunch of people who had

877
00:45:17,360 --> 00:45:20,520
Speaker 2: money joined the Finders and gave them their money, and

878
00:45:20,560 --> 00:45:23,840
Speaker 2: we know they operated several profitable businesses, so it's you

879
00:45:23,840 --> 00:45:26,480
Speaker 2: don't have to have like what they're doing does not

880
00:45:26,520 --> 00:45:28,960
Speaker 2: require so much money that you have to have like

881
00:45:29,120 --> 00:45:33,279
Speaker 2: government backing to explain it. But this report does kind

882
00:45:33,280 --> 00:45:35,080
Speaker 2: of make it seem like, well, yeah, maybe the fucking

883
00:45:35,120 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 2: CIA puts some money in there. And it also like

884
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,960
Speaker 2: he's saying you can only travel this. Detective says Petty

885
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:45,280
Speaker 2: could only have traveled to these prohibited countries during wartime

886
00:45:45,719 --> 00:45:48,640
Speaker 2: if the CIA had arranged it. That's not entirely true.

887
00:45:48,680 --> 00:45:52,280
Speaker 2: There's other cases of Americans traveling to these countries during

888
00:45:52,280 --> 00:45:56,319
Speaker 2: the Cold War. But maybe the CIA told him that.

889
00:45:56,840 --> 00:45:59,719
Speaker 4: So I don't know, well, And it's like his proximity

890
00:45:59,760 --> 00:46:03,799
Speaker 4: to the CIA really, uh, like the CIA and the

891
00:46:03,920 --> 00:46:05,280
Speaker 4: LARPing are.

892
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,160
Speaker 3: In constant conflict with each other. Yeah, I don't know

893
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:08,799
Speaker 3: what to think.

894
00:46:08,880 --> 00:46:12,800
Speaker 2: There is zero evidence that this is a satanic conspiracy.

895
00:46:12,920 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 4: Now, definitely, That's the one thing I can say for sure.

896
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,440
Speaker 2: There's a decent amount of evidence that something shady with

897
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,239
Speaker 2: the CIA and the Finder's coat was going on, right,

898
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,600
Speaker 2: It's just really unclear the extent that that took and

899
00:46:25,640 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 2: what we're we we have more to say on the matter.

900
00:46:28,080 --> 00:46:30,360
Speaker 4: Okay, because I'm also curious because I know that you

901
00:46:30,360 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 4: you characterized his relationship with his wife as like it

902
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,360
Speaker 4: grew as strange pretty quickly once the finger stuff started

903
00:46:36,360 --> 00:46:36,799
Speaker 4: taking off.

904
00:46:36,840 --> 00:46:39,640
Speaker 3: But it's like, what do we even know that that's true?

905
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,960
Speaker 2: You know, like it's just there's and here's the thing,

906
00:46:42,320 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: this is where we.

907
00:46:43,760 --> 00:46:45,279
Speaker 3: Sound like we'd spreading conspiracies.

908
00:46:45,280 --> 00:46:48,520
Speaker 2: Okay, it's entirely possible he was connected to the CIA

909
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:50,760
Speaker 2: and that it had nothing to do with his wife's

910
00:46:50,760 --> 00:46:54,400
Speaker 2: connection to the CIA. What Yeah, Yeah, that's that's what

911
00:46:54,400 --> 00:46:58,319
Speaker 2: we're getting into because it's it's it's just peculiar. Right.

912
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,879
Speaker 2: So the author Mark Reebling, who wrote a book about

913
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:06,360
Speaker 2: the conflict between the FBI and the CIA, has described

914
00:47:06,440 --> 00:47:09,719
Speaker 2: in that book basically like these two agencies have a

915
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: series of escalating conflicts. A lot of it starts with

916
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:17,240
Speaker 2: mk Ultra. So a lot of this stuff actually reaches

917
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:19,839
Speaker 2: kind of like a new height of conspiracism a few

918
00:47:19,920 --> 00:47:21,920
Speaker 2: years after the case drops. And we're going to have

919
00:47:21,960 --> 00:47:24,840
Speaker 2: to jump ahead here before we go back to nineteen

920
00:47:24,840 --> 00:47:26,640
Speaker 2: eighty eight to talk about how this shakes out, because

921
00:47:26,640 --> 00:47:29,200
Speaker 2: it's about stuff that's happening in the eighties but doesn't

922
00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,839
Speaker 2: get found out until later. Just before Christmas nineteen ninety three,

923
00:47:33,360 --> 00:47:36,719
Speaker 2: a report comes out that the CIA had had the

924
00:47:36,920 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 2: FBI cover up to some extent, it's connections with the Finders,

925
00:47:41,719 --> 00:47:44,160
Speaker 2: and that connection was that the CIA had hired the

926
00:47:44,200 --> 00:47:47,640
Speaker 2: Finders for computer training. Right, And I'm for a more

927
00:47:47,640 --> 00:47:49,680
Speaker 2: detailed summary of what happened. I'm going to read an

928
00:47:49,680 --> 00:47:54,000
Speaker 2: excerpt from an AP News article here. Okay, the CIA

929
00:47:54,160 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 2: sent some employees to a company called Future Enterprises, Inc.

930
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,760
Speaker 2: For computer training in the nineteen eighties, but the spokesman

931
00:47:59,800 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 2: said the CIA did not know about any connections between

932
00:48:02,360 --> 00:48:04,680
Speaker 2: the company and the Finders, and added that the company

933
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:07,279
Speaker 2: was in no sense a CIA front or ever owned

934
00:48:07,360 --> 00:48:11,520
Speaker 2: or operated by anyone for the CIA. Joseph Marinach, vice

935
00:48:11,560 --> 00:48:14,480
Speaker 2: president of Future Enterprises, says the company has trained CIA

936
00:48:14,520 --> 00:48:17,360
Speaker 2: employees and computer use and continues to do so, but

937
00:48:17,440 --> 00:48:20,200
Speaker 2: that it has never been afront for anyone. Marinich said.

938
00:48:20,200 --> 00:48:24,799
Speaker 2: One Finder's member, former IRS employee Robert Garder Terrell, worked

939
00:48:24,800 --> 00:48:27,440
Speaker 2: for the company before he was let go in February

940
00:48:27,520 --> 00:48:31,399
Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven. So what's going on there is you've

941
00:48:31,440 --> 00:48:34,839
Speaker 2: got this company that trains people in computer use, and

942
00:48:35,800 --> 00:48:39,160
Speaker 2: right before the Finders all get busted and this case starts,

943
00:48:39,520 --> 00:48:43,040
Speaker 2: the CIA hires them to train CIA agents. And the

944
00:48:43,080 --> 00:48:45,840
Speaker 2: member of the Finders that is training those CIA agents

945
00:48:46,160 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 2: is former IRS employee Robert Terrell, Who's the guy who

946
00:48:49,440 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 2: writes the biography of Mary and Petty. That's the major

947
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:58,520
Speaker 2: source for the first part of this episode, So that's fun. Yeah,

948
00:48:58,760 --> 00:49:02,880
Speaker 2: huh yeah, lot of stuff like this. Now we know

949
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:05,719
Speaker 2: the Finders had a lot of coders and computer technicians.

950
00:49:05,719 --> 00:49:07,840
Speaker 2: A lot of smart nerds are in this cult and

951
00:49:07,920 --> 00:49:11,360
Speaker 2: also in this period of time, the CIA probably doesn't

952
00:49:11,360 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 2: have a ton of people inside the agency who are

953
00:49:13,960 --> 00:49:16,560
Speaker 2: great with computers. It's not weird that they would be

954
00:49:16,640 --> 00:49:20,959
Speaker 2: hiring out for that because computers are very new. That said,

955
00:49:21,120 --> 00:49:24,040
Speaker 2: it's also totally within the dealings of the CIA to

956
00:49:24,160 --> 00:49:27,360
Speaker 2: like operate companies and shit and use that as a

957
00:49:27,400 --> 00:49:30,400
Speaker 2: way to like send money places without having it be open.

958
00:49:30,600 --> 00:49:32,799
Speaker 2: You know, it's like a thing they do over and

959
00:49:32,840 --> 00:49:35,480
Speaker 2: over again. That said, it would be weird to do

960
00:49:35,520 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 2: that and then hire that company to train CIA agents,

961
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:42,320
Speaker 2: which would seem to like increase the level of suspicion

962
00:49:42,440 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 2: towards the CIA. Yeah, yeah, I don't know why you

963
00:49:46,600 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 2: do that.

964
00:49:48,000 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 4: I also don't know why you'd do that. I'm also

965
00:49:50,200 --> 00:49:52,160
Speaker 4: stuck on computer training.

966
00:49:52,600 --> 00:49:55,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's like excel basically, like you can't

967
00:49:55,719 --> 00:49:59,160
Speaker 2: do a lot like computers back, like how I taught.

968
00:49:58,800 --> 00:50:03,520
Speaker 4: The old employee at the Comptroller's office how to like surely,

969
00:50:03,560 --> 00:50:07,240
Speaker 4: I just don't I'm stuck this is this is giving

970
00:50:07,280 --> 00:50:11,920
Speaker 4: me conspiracy brand because you're surely there is someone who

971
00:50:11,960 --> 00:50:15,440
Speaker 4: could train you on computers comparably to the finders that

972
00:50:15,520 --> 00:50:17,279
Speaker 4: aren't the finders.

973
00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:19,319
Speaker 2: Like, I don't know. But also what this makes me think,

974
00:50:19,360 --> 00:50:22,719
Speaker 2: So Terrell is a former IRS agent and a big

975
00:50:22,760 --> 00:50:27,120
Speaker 2: thing the CIA might want computer training in is like forensics.

976
00:50:27,200 --> 00:50:30,200
Speaker 2: Right if you're investigating, say this is the Cold War, Right,

977
00:50:30,239 --> 00:50:32,600
Speaker 2: you're investigating a company that you think is a front

978
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:37,000
Speaker 2: for the Russian government there has received funds from Russian intelligence, Right, Sure,

979
00:50:37,320 --> 00:50:40,439
Speaker 2: well that would be something you might need someone who

980
00:50:40,480 --> 00:50:44,279
Speaker 2: is a forensic analyst of like computer records to look through.

981
00:50:44,320 --> 00:50:47,560
Speaker 2: And Tarrell, as a former IRS agent who knows computers,

982
00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,239
Speaker 2: might be able to train them in doing that, right, Like,

983
00:50:50,320 --> 00:50:52,120
Speaker 2: I can see that being just that. I can see

984
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,400
Speaker 2: him just being involved because he has this knowledge based

985
00:50:55,440 --> 00:50:58,360
Speaker 2: on his background, and the CIA is interesting in getting

986
00:50:58,360 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 2: their employees trained on it. It's also possible, like a

987
00:51:01,920 --> 00:51:04,239
Speaker 2: number of things are possible here, right, it could be

988
00:51:04,239 --> 00:51:07,040
Speaker 2: a coincidence like that he was working for this company

989
00:51:07,120 --> 00:51:09,720
Speaker 2: and the CIA contracted with them because there just wasn't

990
00:51:09,760 --> 00:51:12,640
Speaker 2: a lot of computer training in the DC area at

991
00:51:12,640 --> 00:51:16,480
Speaker 2: that point in time. It's also possible that one way

992
00:51:16,560 --> 00:51:19,279
Speaker 2: or another, Petty found out that the CIA was using

993
00:51:19,320 --> 00:51:22,120
Speaker 2: this company to train their agents, and that Petty sent

994
00:51:22,280 --> 00:51:25,160
Speaker 2: Arrell to work at future enterprises as part of a

995
00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 2: game because he wanted to know what kind of shit

996
00:51:27,080 --> 00:51:29,920
Speaker 2: the CIA was being trained in. Right. That is also

997
00:51:30,040 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 2: in character with the group.

998
00:51:31,760 --> 00:51:32,000
Speaker 3: Right.

999
00:51:32,480 --> 00:51:35,520
Speaker 2: It's also possible that the CIA was aware of this

1000
00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:37,920
Speaker 2: and sent agents to get this training because they knew

1001
00:51:37,960 --> 00:51:41,239
Speaker 2: a Finder's member was in the company. Right, Like, all

1002
00:51:41,320 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: three of those things could be the case. It's really

1003
00:51:44,480 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 2: and all three of those things are in character with

1004
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,920
Speaker 2: the players involved in this, right, and all of.

1005
00:51:49,840 --> 00:51:54,080
Speaker 4: The characters in this In this sort of saga, you

1006
00:51:54,360 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 4: historically cannot trust.

1007
00:51:56,280 --> 00:52:01,160
Speaker 2: No, everyone is alive and be honest. Beyond being a liar,

1008
00:52:01,440 --> 00:52:05,879
Speaker 2: Petty likes spreading disinformation to make people believe untrue things

1009
00:52:05,920 --> 00:52:09,280
Speaker 2: about his cult because he's a prankster and also likes

1010
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:12,520
Speaker 2: sewing doubt. And the CIA does the same thing because

1011
00:52:12,520 --> 00:52:16,120
Speaker 2: they're the CIA. So we really very hard to know

1012
00:52:16,239 --> 00:52:17,879
Speaker 2: what has actually happened here.

1013
00:52:18,160 --> 00:52:22,479
Speaker 4: Yeah, the FBI CIA rivalry, I mean, it makes total sense.

1014
00:52:22,480 --> 00:52:25,200
Speaker 4: And it's also just like you know, like Red Sox

1015
00:52:25,280 --> 00:52:27,920
Speaker 4: Yankees for people that want to fucking destroy the world.

1016
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 3: It's so depressing.

1017
00:52:29,040 --> 00:52:31,720
Speaker 2: Yeah, it is. And obviously the CIA are the Yankees.

1018
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 2: I think we can all agree on that.

1019
00:52:34,719 --> 00:52:38,399
Speaker 3: I don't know. I guess I don't. I don't want

1020
00:52:38,440 --> 00:52:41,719
Speaker 3: to choose. I don't want to choose. I resent having

1021
00:52:41,760 --> 00:52:42,280
Speaker 3: to choose.

1022
00:52:42,800 --> 00:52:45,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, on what grounds is the CIA the Yanks

1023
00:52:45,760 --> 00:52:46,360
Speaker 2: East Coaster?

1024
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:49,600
Speaker 3: Okay? On what grounds?

1025
00:52:49,920 --> 00:52:52,680
Speaker 2: I feel like the Yankees also over through the government

1026
00:52:52,719 --> 00:52:53,440
Speaker 2: of Guatemala.

1027
00:52:53,960 --> 00:52:57,400
Speaker 4: Oh okay, well when you put it like that, yeah, okay,

1028
00:52:57,440 --> 00:52:58,640
Speaker 4: no further questions.

1029
00:52:59,000 --> 00:53:02,440
Speaker 2: So the other possibility as to what's happening here is

1030
00:53:02,440 --> 00:53:04,960
Speaker 2: that everything that was going on, because like, the thing

1031
00:53:05,000 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 2: that didn't make sense to me is all right, if

1032
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:10,239
Speaker 2: the CIA is running this computer training company, why would

1033
00:53:10,280 --> 00:53:13,160
Speaker 2: they have it train their CIA agents and establish a

1034
00:53:13,160 --> 00:53:16,839
Speaker 2: paper trail between them? That seems dumb. But what if

1035
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,400
Speaker 2: the whole training thing is a cover for the agency

1036
00:53:20,440 --> 00:53:23,520
Speaker 2: to communicate with or otherwise use the Finders, Right? What

1037
00:53:23,600 --> 00:53:26,480
Speaker 2: if this was a way of them by establishing this

1038
00:53:26,560 --> 00:53:29,320
Speaker 2: relationship of getting money, funneling money to the Finders for

1039
00:53:29,400 --> 00:53:32,239
Speaker 2: whatever they had them doing, right, or to like, Yeah,

1040
00:53:32,280 --> 00:53:36,200
Speaker 2: I don't know, it's possible. A theory I find particularly

1041
00:53:36,280 --> 00:53:39,759
Speaker 2: compelling is posited to John Cohen by Daniel Brandt. And

1042
00:53:39,880 --> 00:53:44,200
Speaker 2: Daniel Brandt is an independent left wing intelligence analyst who

1043
00:53:44,239 --> 00:53:47,640
Speaker 2: marketed in this period of time a database of intelligence

1044
00:53:47,680 --> 00:53:50,920
Speaker 2: citations called spy Base, starting in the nineteen eighties. So

1045
00:53:50,920 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 2: this is like, if you're a progressive, like, I'm trying

1046
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 2: to keep track of all of the different like weird

1047
00:53:56,000 --> 00:53:58,160
Speaker 2: spy shit going on, so you can be aware of

1048
00:53:58,200 --> 00:54:03,400
Speaker 2: the different threats to like your political organization or whatever. Right, gotcha.

1049
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,959
Speaker 2: Brandt met members of the Finders starting in nineteen eighty

1050
00:54:06,960 --> 00:54:10,040
Speaker 2: four and claimed, quote, they approached me because they saw

1051
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,439
Speaker 2: I was doing this database. I had posted a note

1052
00:54:12,480 --> 00:54:16,120
Speaker 2: about it in an extremely obscure journal called Reset. So

1053
00:54:16,200 --> 00:54:19,040
Speaker 2: two Finders members reach out to Brandt when they see this,

1054
00:54:19,160 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 2: and they're like, hey, we work with something called the

1055
00:54:21,480 --> 00:54:24,840
Speaker 2: Information Bank, and we'll give you some software we've developed

1056
00:54:24,840 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 2: in exchange for some of your files. And so he

1057
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:28,920
Speaker 2: has a little relationship with these guys. He gives them

1058
00:54:28,920 --> 00:54:31,759
Speaker 2: some software, they give them some files. He says they're

1059
00:54:31,840 --> 00:54:34,520
Speaker 2: well informed on counterspying, they seem to know a lot

1060
00:54:34,600 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 2: about intelligence, but he also claims that they're like he

1061
00:54:37,640 --> 00:54:40,480
Speaker 2: kind of breaks ties with them because they keep pushing

1062
00:54:40,520 --> 00:54:43,319
Speaker 2: him for information, and he talks to some friends at

1063
00:54:43,360 --> 00:54:45,839
Speaker 2: the same time that members of the Finders reach out

1064
00:54:45,840 --> 00:54:49,680
Speaker 2: to and they have even more unsettling experiences. He eventually

1065
00:54:49,719 --> 00:54:52,920
Speaker 2: files a three page memo that he publishes to different

1066
00:54:52,960 --> 00:54:56,680
Speaker 2: progressive groups around DC to warn them about the Finders.

1067
00:54:57,160 --> 00:54:58,920
Speaker 2: And I'm going to read a summary of this from

1068
00:54:59,000 --> 00:55:02,839
Speaker 2: John Cohen's article Quote Data November tenth, nineteen eighty six.

1069
00:55:02,920 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 2: The memo is is headed a summary of what is

1070
00:55:05,520 --> 00:55:08,560
Speaker 2: known about some very strange people who use computers and

1071
00:55:08,640 --> 00:55:10,879
Speaker 2: seek out progressives so that they can ask a lot

1072
00:55:10,880 --> 00:55:14,520
Speaker 2: of suspicious questions. In addition to information Bank, Brandt wrote,

1073
00:55:14,640 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 2: members said that they were from Global Press Review, Hong

1074
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:21,240
Speaker 2: Kong Business Today and the Seekers. Members also approached Lou Wolfe,

1075
00:55:21,239 --> 00:55:24,640
Speaker 2: co editor of Covert Action Information Bulletin, and he helped

1076
00:55:24,640 --> 00:55:28,160
Speaker 2: Brant check them out. There are several characteristics that lend

1077
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:31,160
Speaker 2: themselves to the interpretation that this is an information gathering

1078
00:55:31,200 --> 00:55:33,200
Speaker 2: front for a cult of some sort. Brant wrote in

1079
00:55:33,239 --> 00:55:35,799
Speaker 2: his summary, noting that members may not be told the

1080
00:55:35,800 --> 00:55:39,200
Speaker 2: purpose behind their missions. The guys of computer consulting is

1081
00:55:39,239 --> 00:55:41,920
Speaker 2: an ideal method of spying on the left. He concluded,

1082
00:55:42,160 --> 00:55:44,520
Speaker 2: it would take about twenty seconds to copy an entire

1083
00:55:44,560 --> 00:55:47,359
Speaker 2: mailing list from a hard drive to a floppy And

1084
00:55:48,440 --> 00:55:52,640
Speaker 2: that's really possible. And that's really possible because, as we'll say,

1085
00:55:52,719 --> 00:55:56,680
Speaker 2: the CIA did exactly that with different groups. Like this

1086
00:55:56,840 --> 00:55:58,759
Speaker 2: is not coming out of nowhere. These guys are not

1087
00:55:58,800 --> 00:56:01,480
Speaker 2: conspiracy theoristying. We know the CIA was doing this with

1088
00:56:01,560 --> 00:56:04,399
Speaker 2: other groups. They may have been doing it with the Finders, right.

1089
00:56:04,760 --> 00:56:09,319
Speaker 2: So given this info, I can see two equally plausible possibilities. One,

1090
00:56:09,880 --> 00:56:13,560
Speaker 2: this cult which recruited from left wing and New age

1091
00:56:13,600 --> 00:56:17,160
Speaker 2: type people. Right, they may have been spying on progressive

1092
00:56:17,480 --> 00:56:19,799
Speaker 2: groups and trying to get access to mailing lists for

1093
00:56:19,840 --> 00:56:23,000
Speaker 2: progressive groups just to recruit people, right, not because of

1094
00:56:23,000 --> 00:56:25,400
Speaker 2: a CIA thing, but because that was the kind of

1095
00:56:25,480 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 2: person they thought would join their crew. And the cults

1096
00:56:27,719 --> 00:56:32,399
Speaker 2: are always recruiting, right, That's one possibility. They also may

1097
00:56:32,440 --> 00:56:35,719
Speaker 2: have been contacted or even paid by the CIA to

1098
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:39,319
Speaker 2: spy on progressive groups, right, And it may have been

1099
00:56:39,800 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: a bit of both. Right, we can get members this way,

1100
00:56:42,520 --> 00:56:44,640
Speaker 2: and the CIA will pay us. We can get information

1101
00:56:44,680 --> 00:56:47,799
Speaker 2: from the CIA if we do this, right. There is

1102
00:56:48,080 --> 00:56:50,960
Speaker 2: some suggestion that early in the cult's history because they're

1103
00:56:51,000 --> 00:56:53,560
Speaker 2: doing all these spying games, Petty sending them around the

1104
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:57,759
Speaker 2: world to infiltrate companies and get information. There's information that

1105
00:56:57,880 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 2: suggests Petty would reach out to the when he would

1106
00:57:01,080 --> 00:57:04,319
Speaker 2: get info, to try to trade info with them, right,

1107
00:57:04,440 --> 00:57:06,920
Speaker 2: to be like, hey, I found this out. If you

1108
00:57:07,000 --> 00:57:10,320
Speaker 2: find out anything else, you let me know, right, which

1109
00:57:11,160 --> 00:57:13,600
Speaker 2: would both be a connection with the CIA and also

1110
00:57:13,640 --> 00:57:15,759
Speaker 2: mean the CIA was like, well, he was just kind

1111
00:57:15,760 --> 00:57:18,320
Speaker 2: of hassling us, like we weren't contract. He just kept

1112
00:57:18,320 --> 00:57:19,280
Speaker 2: reaching out with shit.

1113
00:57:19,800 --> 00:57:24,720
Speaker 4: I mean, that would that would help resolve the issue

1114
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,000
Speaker 4: we've been having the whole time, which is like him,

1115
00:57:28,160 --> 00:57:31,960
Speaker 4: you know, sort of characterizing this this cult atmosphere as

1116
00:57:32,040 --> 00:57:35,440
Speaker 4: like a Mary prankster joker thing. It's like, if there it,

1117
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 4: I understand why this has lent itself to so many conspiracies.

1118
00:57:40,360 --> 00:57:42,000
Speaker 3: It's like you're just like.

1119
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:46,520
Speaker 4: Why, like, and that is a thread as to why

1120
00:57:47,120 --> 00:57:52,320
Speaker 4: that you know, there's Yeah, because I'm so continually baffled

1121
00:57:52,320 --> 00:57:55,600
Speaker 4: by the ostensible lack of clear purpose. But that I mean,

1122
00:57:55,600 --> 00:57:58,040
Speaker 4: but if you're telling people they're LARPing and they are

1123
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:02,600
Speaker 4: actually accomplishing something for you, yeah, that's not nothing. I

1124
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,040
Speaker 4: also just I just hearing a couple of the sentences

1125
00:58:05,080 --> 00:58:10,040
Speaker 4: you were saying, I miss when talking about computers, would

1126
00:58:10,160 --> 00:58:12,160
Speaker 4: like there was this horny energy.

1127
00:58:11,880 --> 00:58:13,480
Speaker 3: About it, hard drive to a floppy.

1128
00:58:13,560 --> 00:58:16,360
Speaker 4: You're not getting you know, you're not getting words like

1129
00:58:16,400 --> 00:58:18,320
Speaker 4: that anymore in the computer world.

1130
00:58:18,480 --> 00:58:21,640
Speaker 2: It's illegal to use words like that in the computer world, Jamie,

1131
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:23,960
Speaker 2: the woke left will cancel you.

1132
00:58:24,280 --> 00:58:26,040
Speaker 3: It's considered a thought crime.

1133
00:58:26,200 --> 00:58:30,160
Speaker 4: I think it's really telling that I am. I've allegedly

1134
00:58:30,200 --> 00:58:32,360
Speaker 4: done a lot of shit in Grand Rapids, Michigan.

1135
00:58:32,520 --> 00:58:34,520
Speaker 3: But what I'm going to get taken down for is

1136
00:58:34,560 --> 00:58:35,920
Speaker 3: saying hard drive to a floppy.

1137
00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:38,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, that's what That's what you're going to

1138
00:58:38,960 --> 00:58:41,720
Speaker 2: get canceled for by the AI, that is spreading the

1139
00:58:42,120 --> 00:58:46,720
Speaker 2: lies against you. So the other thing I want to

1140
00:58:46,760 --> 00:58:48,360
Speaker 2: add before we end for the day is that like

1141
00:58:49,080 --> 00:58:53,080
Speaker 2: the possibility that there's a connection to the CIA, which

1142
00:58:53,120 --> 00:58:56,400
Speaker 2: is that Petty kept trying to feed them information and

1143
00:58:56,920 --> 00:59:00,880
Speaker 2: maybe they at some point were like, hey, hey, why

1144
00:59:00,880 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: don't you, you know, do this for us or that

1145
00:59:03,280 --> 00:59:05,080
Speaker 2: for us, Like, let's see if we can use this guy.

1146
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:08,360
Speaker 2: He come up with something interesting that's really consistent with

1147
00:59:08,400 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 2: how he liked to behave. And we know this because

1148
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 2: of what he did to John Cohen, that journalist who

1149
00:59:13,840 --> 00:59:17,400
Speaker 2: interviewed him in nineteen ninety six. I want to quote

1150
00:59:17,400 --> 00:59:19,800
Speaker 2: a bit from that article because where this this is

1151
00:59:19,840 --> 00:59:22,480
Speaker 2: one of the better sources we have on Petty and

1152
00:59:22,520 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 2: his cult, particularly like in the late stage of the cult.

1153
00:59:25,600 --> 00:59:28,680
Speaker 2: And what happens is Cohen travels to Culpepper, Virginia, you know,

1154
00:59:28,760 --> 00:59:31,840
Speaker 2: well after the case blows up and like goes away

1155
00:59:32,480 --> 00:59:36,160
Speaker 2: and he interviews Petty and during their conversation, this is

1156
00:59:36,320 --> 00:59:39,720
Speaker 2: this happens, and this is Petty talking anyway that we

1157
00:59:39,720 --> 00:59:42,800
Speaker 2: can throw you any leads? He asks, be thinking about

1158
00:59:42,800 --> 00:59:44,880
Speaker 2: what leads you could throw us if you come across

1159
00:59:44,920 --> 00:59:47,440
Speaker 2: anything we'd be interested in. I can't think of a

1160
00:59:47,480 --> 00:59:50,440
Speaker 2: single lead that Petty might be interested in. He and Burns,

1161
00:59:50,440 --> 00:59:53,440
Speaker 2: who's his other cult member, both lean forward awaiting my response.

1162
00:59:53,760 --> 00:59:56,120
Speaker 2: No one says a word, and the silence is deafening.

1163
00:59:57,080 --> 01:00:00,640
Speaker 2: So like this journalist comes to interview them, and they're like, Hey,

1164
01:00:00,920 --> 01:00:02,680
Speaker 2: we could really use a journalist. What if we have

1165
01:00:02,720 --> 01:00:04,880
Speaker 2: a partnership. You throw us any leads you get, We'll

1166
01:00:04,880 --> 01:00:06,720
Speaker 2: throw you leads for stories. We get all sorts of

1167
01:00:06,800 --> 01:00:10,080
Speaker 2: leads for stories. We're always looking into stuff, right, And

1168
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:14,240
Speaker 2: I could see Petty's relationship with the CIA starting at

1169
01:00:14,320 --> 01:00:16,760
Speaker 2: least with that, with him reaching out to the CIA

1170
01:00:16,840 --> 01:00:18,880
Speaker 2: and being like, I got this lead on this company

1171
01:00:18,880 --> 01:00:21,400
Speaker 2: in Japan, or I got this lead on this communist

1172
01:00:21,480 --> 01:00:24,840
Speaker 2: organ this progressive organization in the US. Here's some info.

1173
01:00:25,240 --> 01:00:27,920
Speaker 2: If you get any leads, here's what I'm interested, and

1174
01:00:27,960 --> 01:00:29,840
Speaker 2: you throw them my way, right, And I could see

1175
01:00:29,840 --> 01:00:32,880
Speaker 2: the CIA being like, well, let's humor this guy and

1176
01:00:32,920 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 2: give him some bullshit because we're the CIA, and you

1177
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:37,760
Speaker 2: know there's no cost in us trying to see what

1178
01:00:37,800 --> 01:00:41,160
Speaker 2: we might get. I could see that being the texture

1179
01:00:41,240 --> 01:00:49,480
Speaker 2: of the relationship they have too. Anyway, Wellamie, yes this

1180
01:00:49,480 --> 01:00:50,680
Speaker 2: this is but not today.

1181
01:00:52,160 --> 01:00:58,880
Speaker 5: I yeah, this does feel like a perfectly infuriating case

1182
01:00:58,920 --> 01:01:04,560
Speaker 5: study at just like baffling questions and systemic failure at

1183
01:01:04,680 --> 01:01:07,080
Speaker 5: virtually every level to the point where you cannot trust

1184
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,720
Speaker 5: what anyone says, and so at that point you might

1185
01:01:09,760 --> 01:01:11,000
Speaker 5: as well just make shit up.

1186
01:01:11,320 --> 01:01:15,560
Speaker 3: And that's conspiracy culture. Wow. I also realized one more thing,

1187
01:01:15,600 --> 01:01:16,720
Speaker 3: Can I tell you one more thing?

1188
01:01:16,960 --> 01:01:17,280
Speaker 2: Sure?

1189
01:01:18,200 --> 01:01:21,320
Speaker 4: I realized that the Red Sox are the FBI, because

1190
01:01:21,360 --> 01:01:23,800
Speaker 4: they also killed MLK.

1191
01:01:24,560 --> 01:01:30,040
Speaker 2: Oh wait the Red Sox did Wow, Jamie Loftus. You know,

1192
01:01:30,560 --> 01:01:33,240
Speaker 2: google the Red Sox assassination.

1193
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:36,280
Speaker 3: Don't google anything anymore, see what it comes up.

1194
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:37,160
Speaker 2: See what comes up.

1195
01:01:37,320 --> 01:01:40,600
Speaker 3: Don't google any looking anymore.

1196
01:01:41,360 --> 01:01:44,080
Speaker 2: There's a lot to these episodes. We have more CIA

1197
01:01:44,160 --> 01:01:47,120
Speaker 2: talk when we come back, we have the the resolution

1198
01:01:47,320 --> 01:01:50,280
Speaker 2: of the cult case, and we have what happens after

1199
01:01:50,680 --> 01:01:54,720
Speaker 2: the child trafficking case goes away. So all of that

1200
01:01:54,760 --> 01:01:58,000
Speaker 2: and more Jamie in part for the conclusion of the

1201
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:01,280
Speaker 2: epic saga of the Finders. But first off, doing this

1202
01:02:01,320 --> 01:02:04,560
Speaker 2: to me, Yeah, let's conclude the epic saga of Jamie

1203
01:02:04,600 --> 01:02:08,280
Speaker 2: Loftus on this podcast by giving your pluggables.

1204
01:02:08,400 --> 01:02:10,400
Speaker 3: Oh, I'm going to just plug away.

1205
01:02:10,800 --> 01:02:14,680
Speaker 4: You should follow me on Twitter and Instagram.

1206
01:02:14,880 --> 01:02:19,800
Speaker 3: Still against all lots, I am still there. You can

1207
01:02:19,960 --> 01:02:21,919
Speaker 3: what else can you do? You buy my book Raw Dog,

1208
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:23,640
Speaker 3: which is about hot dogs.

1209
01:02:24,120 --> 01:02:27,560
Speaker 4: You can listen to a showing producing called Media and Housed,

1210
01:02:28,280 --> 01:02:33,040
Speaker 4: which is hosted by and made for the unhoused community.

1211
01:02:33,720 --> 01:02:39,480
Speaker 4: And you can listen to my new show called I

1212
01:02:39,480 --> 01:02:43,000
Speaker 4: don't know. The title is in transit at this time.

1213
01:02:43,040 --> 01:02:45,680
Speaker 4: It's currently called fifteen Minutes and it's going to be

1214
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:47,959
Speaker 4: a new weekly show on cool Zone Media.

1215
01:02:48,080 --> 01:02:48,800
Speaker 3: Ever heard of It?

1216
01:02:49,480 --> 01:02:52,920
Speaker 4: About every week we look at one of the Internet's

1217
01:02:53,360 --> 01:02:56,840
Speaker 4: main characters, Yeah.

1218
01:02:57,120 --> 01:02:58,480
Speaker 3: Past, present, and future.

1219
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:00,800
Speaker 4: I'm going to try to estabt see if I could

1220
01:03:00,880 --> 01:03:03,400
Speaker 4: establish my own main character, just install someone.

1221
01:03:03,960 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you know who else could be a main character?

1222
01:03:07,120 --> 01:03:11,000
Speaker 2: Mary and Petty. He kind of was early main character

1223
01:03:11,120 --> 01:03:12,200
Speaker 2: on the early Internet.

1224
01:03:13,000 --> 01:03:17,040
Speaker 4: It's it's true on the on the floppy, it's.

1225
01:03:17,840 --> 01:03:18,000
Speaker 2: Uh.

1226
01:03:18,680 --> 01:03:21,400
Speaker 3: The further you go back in Internet history, you're like, wow, it.

1227
01:03:22,400 --> 01:03:25,080
Speaker 3: I feel like we characterize it as were we ever

1228
01:03:25,160 --> 01:03:27,600
Speaker 3: so young? But it's like, no, we're always pretty bad,

1229
01:03:27,800 --> 01:03:31,160
Speaker 3: but we just didn't didn't realize it.

1230
01:03:31,880 --> 01:03:32,320
Speaker 2: Yeah.

1231
01:03:32,560 --> 01:03:34,400
Speaker 3: Oh well, so.

1232
01:03:36,200 --> 01:03:40,400
Speaker 2: Those are my plug you know, go to help. I

1233
01:03:40,480 --> 01:03:40,800
Speaker 2: love you.

1234
01:03:44,760 --> 01:03:47,680
Speaker 1: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1235
01:03:47,800 --> 01:03:50,400
Speaker 1: For more from cool zone Media, visit our website cool

1236
01:03:50,520 --> 01:03:54,439
Speaker 1: zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1237
01:03:54,560 --> 01:03:56,880
Speaker 1: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts.