WEBVTT - Mental Health: Surviving Grief 0:00:14.956 --> 0:00:23.836 Pushkin hey Slight change listeners. It's Maya. We'll be back 0:00:23.876 --> 0:00:27.116 with a new season on June fifth, but before then, 0:00:27.356 --> 0:00:29.836 I wanted to share some of my favorite conversations with 0:00:29.916 --> 0:00:34.476 scientists about mental health. Since May is Mental Health Awareness Month, 0:00:35.316 --> 0:00:39.116 I hope you enjoy this conversation with grief therapist Julia Samuel. 0:00:39.796 --> 0:00:42.636 It's full of wisdom. I still think about, like how 0:00:42.636 --> 0:00:45.356 it's important to grieve the loss of identity that often 0:00:45.356 --> 0:00:49.116 accompanies major life changes. I'd love to hear your thoughts 0:00:49.116 --> 0:00:52.276 on this episode. You can find me on Instagram at 0:00:52.356 --> 0:00:53.476 doctor Maya Shunker. 0:01:05.316 --> 0:01:09.796 When you kind of in trauma, everything it's like your 0:01:09.836 --> 0:01:12.876 body is on far and you're drowning at the same time, 0:01:13.436 --> 0:01:18.476 so that everything is heywhaw. But by having small, bite sized, 0:01:19.236 --> 0:01:24.196 very manageable structures and rituals, they just bring you down 0:01:24.316 --> 0:01:27.236 a little bit to that sense of safety, and feeling 0:01:27.316 --> 0:01:30.316 safe in your body and your mind and in your 0:01:30.436 --> 0:01:34.876 home gives you a kind of robustness to deal with 0:01:34.956 --> 0:01:39.316 the onslaught of the feelings of your trauma and the loss. 0:01:40.516 --> 0:01:43.276 Julia Samuel has worked for thirty years as a grief 0:01:43.276 --> 0:01:46.156 counselor in the UK and as an expert on trauma 0:01:46.196 --> 0:01:49.676 and loss. She's also the author of two best selling books, 0:01:49.836 --> 0:01:54.036 Grief Works and This Too Shall Pass. Julia has counseled 0:01:54.076 --> 0:01:57.356 thousands of people through their grief and has identified strategies 0:01:57.356 --> 0:01:59.516 that can help all of us navigate the loss of 0:01:59.556 --> 0:02:00.116 a loved one. 0:02:01.196 --> 0:02:05.116 You know, people say time is a great healer, and 0:02:06.756 --> 0:02:11.396 the pain of grief does change over time, but if 0:02:11.436 --> 0:02:16.316 we aren't active in the process of grieving, it doesn't 0:02:16.436 --> 0:02:21.116 change so much. It just gets shut down. So the 0:02:21.516 --> 0:02:24.556 things you do to block your pain are, in the 0:02:24.676 --> 0:02:27.396 end the things that harm you over time. 0:02:29.236 --> 0:02:35.996 On today's episode, Lessons from a Grief Therapist, I'm Maya Shunker, 0:02:36.156 --> 0:02:38.396 and this is a slight change of plans, a show 0:02:38.436 --> 0:02:40.556 about who we are and who we become in the 0:02:40.556 --> 0:02:49.076 face of a big change. You know, Julia, you refer 0:02:49.116 --> 0:02:53.916 to death as the great last taboo that we resist. 0:02:54.676 --> 0:02:57.956 We resist using the word death. We prefer euphemisms like 0:02:58.556 --> 0:03:02.076 loss and passed away. And we can be so scared 0:03:02.116 --> 0:03:05.676 of death that sometimes we engage in magical thinking right 0:03:05.756 --> 0:03:08.636 where we believe that maybe if we don't talk about it, 0:03:08.636 --> 0:03:12.436 it won't have to us. And so, given this very 0:03:13.076 --> 0:03:18.396 natural desire to resist talking or thinking about death. I'm 0:03:18.436 --> 0:03:22.596 curious to know what led you initially to run directly 0:03:22.636 --> 0:03:26.036 into the fire, directly into that emotional fire, and become 0:03:26.116 --> 0:03:27.076 a grief therapist. 0:03:28.716 --> 0:03:31.636 I mean, I don't think I recognized what I was doing. 0:03:31.716 --> 0:03:34.236 I think like most of us probably don't realize until 0:03:34.356 --> 0:03:36.996 after the fact and you look back and you go, oh, 0:03:37.116 --> 0:03:40.756 that's what it was. You know. My parents are brought 0:03:40.836 --> 0:03:43.836 up by parents who had survived the worst kind of 0:03:43.876 --> 0:03:47.356 war in history, where everybody was grieving someone they loved, 0:03:47.556 --> 0:03:52.476 a father, a son, a brother, a husband, and they 0:03:52.556 --> 0:03:59.356 had no choices but to get on and multiply, and 0:03:59.836 --> 0:04:02.316 no one was able to kind of take on anyone 0:04:02.316 --> 0:04:05.276 else's grief. And then they had to do the same 0:04:05.716 --> 0:04:08.196 after the Second World War. But both of my parents 0:04:08.236 --> 0:04:12.316 had very signific, vocant and traumatic bereavement. So my mum, 0:04:13.036 --> 0:04:16.276 by the time she was twenty five, her father, her mother, 0:04:17.036 --> 0:04:19.516 her sister, and her brother had all died, so she 0:04:19.676 --> 0:04:24.116 was an orphan. And my father, his father, and his 0:04:24.236 --> 0:04:26.676 brother had also died by the time he was a 0:04:26.716 --> 0:04:33.036 young man, so they had experienced really devastating death and 0:04:33.676 --> 0:04:37.596 they literally never talked about it. It was like everything 0:04:38.916 --> 0:04:44.316 that was painful and difficult, wasn't talked about and wasn't voiced, 0:04:44.716 --> 0:04:49.116 and everything that really didn't matter and was inconsequential was 0:04:49.156 --> 0:04:52.036 what we talked about. And I as a child, I 0:04:52.076 --> 0:04:54.116 was one of five children, five of us born in 0:04:54.156 --> 0:04:56.556 four years because I'm a twin and I have twin sisters, 0:04:57.956 --> 0:05:00.636 and so I was quite quiet and un observer, and 0:05:00.716 --> 0:05:04.596 I was always trying to work out what was going on, 0:05:05.716 --> 0:05:08.476 and I could never really quite make sense of what 0:05:08.676 --> 0:05:13.836 was going on. And so I think unconsciously that led me, 0:05:14.916 --> 0:05:16.436 you know. And I was still quite young in my 0:05:16.556 --> 0:05:20.436 late twenties to go into the area of bereavement. But 0:05:20.516 --> 0:05:24.756 it wasn't because I knew it was because of my childhood. 0:05:25.116 --> 0:05:27.756 It was just because what I was drawn to and 0:05:27.836 --> 0:05:32.316 somehow fascinated by. But as I've had like thirty years 0:05:32.316 --> 0:05:36.476 of therapy since I kind of that doesn't take much 0:05:36.516 --> 0:05:38.836 to put the pieces of the jigsaw together. 0:05:39.916 --> 0:05:43.476 You mentioned that growing up, no one spoke about it, 0:05:43.516 --> 0:05:47.836 no one spoke about any of the deaths. And why 0:05:47.836 --> 0:05:49.956 do you think we don't like talking about our feelings. 0:05:50.076 --> 0:05:53.076 I mean, it just it feels so tragic and unfortunate 0:05:53.196 --> 0:05:56.236 that we resist doing the very thing that can help 0:05:56.316 --> 0:05:58.116 us in the face of a death. 0:05:59.116 --> 0:06:01.036 I think that's a really good question. The sort of 0:06:01.076 --> 0:06:05.196 paradox of by allowing us to feel the aspects of 0:06:05.236 --> 0:06:08.556 ourselves that we most kind of fear, we do in 0:06:08.636 --> 0:06:09.556 the end heal. 0:06:09.796 --> 0:06:10.036 And I. 0:06:11.516 --> 0:06:14.636 Think a lot of it is probably to do with 0:06:15.716 --> 0:06:20.756 control and shame that somehow maybe you'd know the reasons 0:06:20.796 --> 0:06:26.476 to do with evolutionary drives that in order to kind 0:06:26.516 --> 0:06:30.236 of be out in the world and you know, thrive, 0:06:30.756 --> 0:06:35.796 we have to show that we're strong and that we 0:06:36.836 --> 0:06:42.236 can fend for ourselves and that we're not vulnerable. But also, 0:06:42.396 --> 0:06:46.636 I mean, I think from the control perspective, it's that 0:06:46.876 --> 0:06:51.236 what we feel is invisible. You know, most of grief 0:06:51.596 --> 0:06:55.996 and emotions. You know, you can read some things on 0:06:56.076 --> 0:07:00.836 someone's face, but they're all underground. So it's messy, it's chaotic, 0:07:02.036 --> 0:07:05.716 and I think a lot of people when they talk 0:07:05.756 --> 0:07:08.316 to me about grieving, they want to sort of maricondo 0:07:08.436 --> 0:07:15.276 their feelings into kind of tidy sock draws, color coordinated 0:07:15.556 --> 0:07:18.396 because you feel so powerless when you're grieving, that this 0:07:18.476 --> 0:07:22.596 thing has happened to you and blown you off your center. 0:07:23.356 --> 0:07:26.916 I think if you can kind of control your feelings, 0:07:26.956 --> 0:07:29.556 then you feel like I can okay, I can survive this. 0:07:29.676 --> 0:07:34.316 But when feelings hit you completely out of the blue, 0:07:34.476 --> 0:07:39.156 then you feel in some way threatened, so you automatically 0:07:39.196 --> 0:07:43.796 put on shields of defense. Of busyness. I think is 0:07:43.836 --> 0:07:49.516 the most common, actually getting super busy, scrolling, running, because 0:07:49.556 --> 0:07:52.916 then you feel like I'm in control, I've got this. 0:07:53.396 --> 0:07:56.076 Is it correct for me to say then, that as 0:07:56.076 --> 0:07:59.276 we're going about our normal lives, we experience the illusion 0:07:59.276 --> 0:08:02.716 anyway that we are managing and controlling our feelings, and 0:08:02.756 --> 0:08:05.956 then when something like a profound loss happens, a death 0:08:05.996 --> 0:08:09.796 of someone who is so important to us, that illusion 0:08:09.836 --> 0:08:15.276 evaporates because suddenly we're confronted with the enormity of the feelings. 0:08:15.276 --> 0:08:19.676 And as you mentioned, they're messy and complicated and confusing 0:08:19.956 --> 0:08:23.796 and overwhelming, and I guess we're taken by storm. And 0:08:23.836 --> 0:08:26.076 that might be why we don't want to engage. We 0:08:26.076 --> 0:08:27.996 don't want to take the lid off, because if we 0:08:28.036 --> 0:08:30.556 see what's underneath there, it's just it all feels too 0:08:31.036 --> 0:08:33.396 intimidating and overwhelming. Is that right? 0:08:33.956 --> 0:08:36.916 I think that's absolutely right. And there's this sort of 0:08:37.796 --> 0:08:41.356 blissful ignorance that when something terrible hasn't happened to us, 0:08:41.756 --> 0:08:46.476 that we have control, that good things happen to good people, 0:08:47.476 --> 0:08:50.916 that life has a kind of order that your parents 0:08:50.956 --> 0:08:53.636 die first and you know you'll go next, and then 0:08:53.676 --> 0:08:59.036 your children, and then having a devastating experience throws that 0:08:59.276 --> 0:09:03.556 order completely off kilter. And also you have the feelings 0:09:03.596 --> 0:09:06.556 that you do not want to have. You become a 0:09:06.676 --> 0:09:10.156 version of yourself that you don't want to meet, where 0:09:10.196 --> 0:09:13.396 you feel furious for seeing someone talk to their father 0:09:13.516 --> 0:09:17.596 because your father's died, or they can't bear to see 0:09:17.916 --> 0:09:20.876 other people or people laughing, which then you feel like 0:09:20.916 --> 0:09:25.636 you're this joyless kind of ogre and you want to 0:09:25.636 --> 0:09:28.636 be the old you that what light was in there 0:09:28.756 --> 0:09:33.356 laughing with them. And that's what you're confronted with is 0:09:33.796 --> 0:09:37.396 lots of aspects of yourself which when you're not suffering, 0:09:38.156 --> 0:09:39.076 kind of go quiet. 0:09:39.556 --> 0:09:45.396 Yeah, our most natural instinct is humans, is to avoid suffering. 0:09:45.876 --> 0:09:48.876 But you do say that contrary to all of our instincts, 0:09:49.556 --> 0:09:52.636 we have to allow ourselves to feel the pain in 0:09:52.756 --> 0:09:55.916 order to make progress. Right, Your mantra is pain is 0:09:55.956 --> 0:09:59.876 the agent of change. And to start, I'd love to 0:09:59.916 --> 0:10:01.556 know what's led you to that. 0:10:01.556 --> 0:10:09.476 Conclusion, emotions are transmitters of information, so that they are 0:10:10.276 --> 0:10:14.716 informing us that something is up, and that our emotions 0:10:14.796 --> 0:10:18.636 and our cognitions are reciprocal feeds, so that when we 0:10:18.756 --> 0:10:21.956 have an experience of a feeling, it connects with our 0:10:21.996 --> 0:10:26.556 thinking and we're saying to ourselves, I feel frightened, I 0:10:26.596 --> 0:10:30.396 feel scared, I feel distressed. And then in the process 0:10:30.436 --> 0:10:34.156 of that thinking, you then think, what's happened? Why am 0:10:34.196 --> 0:10:38.636 I distressed? And you begin to develop a narrative that 0:10:38.796 --> 0:10:42.716 is telling you the reason you're distress. And as you 0:10:42.836 --> 0:10:46.716 do that, and as you express the feeling and say 0:10:46.796 --> 0:10:52.196 the words, incrementally you adjust a little bit more to 0:10:52.316 --> 0:10:55.836 this new reality that you didn't want and you didn't choose, 0:10:56.716 --> 0:10:59.956 because your first response, or most people's first response to 0:11:00.036 --> 0:11:05.596 grief is shock and numbness, and that it's surreal and 0:11:05.916 --> 0:11:10.036 we can only feel the pain of it in very 0:11:10.156 --> 0:11:14.716 tiny increments. If we felt it all at once in 0:11:14.756 --> 0:11:18.236 that moment, I think it would kind of blow our 0:11:18.316 --> 0:11:24.436 kind of brain circuits. And so the pain is slowly 0:11:25.876 --> 0:11:29.556 forcing you to face this new reality, and as you 0:11:29.636 --> 0:11:34.876 face it, you adapt, and as you adapt, it gives 0:11:34.876 --> 0:11:39.436 space to kind of think about well, who am I now? 0:11:39.516 --> 0:11:41.396 And how am I going to live now? And what 0:11:41.436 --> 0:11:44.716 does this mean now? And what do I need? And 0:11:44.756 --> 0:11:47.196 so then you can get your needs met. If you 0:11:47.316 --> 0:11:50.956 shut all that down like my parents did, you function, 0:11:52.116 --> 0:11:57.036 but your capacity to feel gets foreshortened so that you 0:11:57.076 --> 0:11:59.156 wouldn't know what you were feeling, so you couldn't get 0:11:59.196 --> 0:12:02.156 your needs met. So you may feel distressed, but then 0:12:02.196 --> 0:12:07.676 you would use behaviors or other kind of mechanisms to 0:12:07.796 --> 0:12:08.556 self medicate. 0:12:10.316 --> 0:12:14.076 Yeah. No, I think it's so helpful to think about 0:12:14.076 --> 0:12:17.676 it in terms of processing, because when we think about it, 0:12:17.676 --> 0:12:20.196 it's just, at least for me on a personal level, 0:12:20.356 --> 0:12:22.756 like Julia's prescription to me is to marinate in the pain. 0:12:22.836 --> 0:12:26.596 I'm like, Okay, basically, you are prescribing hell on earth 0:12:26.676 --> 0:12:28.956 to me. I don't want to do that, right but 0:12:29.156 --> 0:12:30.756 for whatever reason, and I don't know if I'm the 0:12:30.796 --> 0:12:32.836 only one who finds comfort in this When I see 0:12:32.876 --> 0:12:37.156 it as a dynamic process where my mind is engaged 0:12:37.276 --> 0:12:41.396 and I am in communication with my feelings, that feels 0:12:41.476 --> 0:12:45.996 more manageable for me. So I'm feeling terror, I'm feeling panic, 0:12:46.076 --> 0:12:50.796 I'm feeling distress. But there's a conversation happening where I'm 0:12:50.996 --> 0:12:53.716 picking apart some of these emotions and trying to unpack them, 0:12:54.076 --> 0:12:56.956 and then in the process maybe they lose some of 0:12:56.996 --> 0:12:58.396 their power over me. You know. 0:12:59.396 --> 0:13:01.836 I mean that is right. But the piece that you 0:13:01.956 --> 0:13:07.676 haven't added, which I hope I say with equal force, 0:13:08.636 --> 0:13:12.076 is that it's the love and connection to others that 0:13:12.356 --> 0:13:17.076 enables us to survive when we feel the pain. I 0:13:17.156 --> 0:13:21.036 really profoundly believe we can't do this alone and that 0:13:21.356 --> 0:13:24.116 when love dies, it's the love of others we need most. 0:13:25.116 --> 0:13:31.316 So that you need find ways of both supporting yourself personally. 0:13:31.396 --> 0:13:35.876 And you know, one of the kind of cruel paradoxes 0:13:35.916 --> 0:13:39.716 of grief is that often people turn against themselves and 0:13:39.836 --> 0:13:41.876 have you know what I call a shitty committee where 0:13:41.876 --> 0:13:45.476 they're attacking themselves. I'm an idiot, I'm a fool, all 0:13:45.516 --> 0:13:48.876 that guilt of if only, what if? Why didn't I 0:13:50.876 --> 0:13:54.516 And often don't seek support because there's this sense of 0:13:54.556 --> 0:13:58.956 shame that I can't ask for help. But you need 0:13:59.316 --> 0:14:02.036 both to be compassionate to yourself and to get the 0:14:02.076 --> 0:14:07.996 support of other people so that that processing isn't chilly 0:14:08.076 --> 0:14:12.956 and isolating and but is connected and that you can 0:14:13.036 --> 0:14:15.876 feel the warmth and the heart of another person with you. 0:14:18.316 --> 0:14:21.436 For the person who's listening who says, okay, Julie, I 0:14:21.476 --> 0:14:24.676 totally understand that I need love to heal, but I 0:14:24.756 --> 0:14:28.556 currently don't have those resources in my life. Where can 0:14:28.596 --> 0:14:30.636 they begin? I mean, is there are there ways to 0:14:30.756 --> 0:14:34.476 find that compassion in love? I mean, we do live 0:14:34.476 --> 0:14:37.076 in a digital world where maybe it's possible to forge 0:14:37.076 --> 0:14:38.796 connections that you might not have been able to. But 0:14:38.836 --> 0:14:40.756 I just I want to give hope to the person 0:14:40.796 --> 0:14:43.036 who says, okay. You know, the privileged among us might 0:14:43.116 --> 0:14:46.636 have lots of love in our support networks, but I don't. 0:14:48.036 --> 0:14:50.716 So I think the first place to turn is to yourself, 0:14:50.836 --> 0:14:54.716 is to be self compassionate. And then you know, there 0:14:54.756 --> 0:14:58.996 really are groups, a lot of support groups for people 0:14:58.996 --> 0:15:01.996 that are grieving, and it's often the groups around the 0:15:02.756 --> 0:15:05.596 relationship with the person that died, so you know, partners 0:15:05.596 --> 0:15:08.636 that have died, or parents that have died, or children 0:15:08.676 --> 0:15:11.716 that have died, so that you can find, you know, 0:15:11.756 --> 0:15:13.756 this club that nobody wants to be a member of, 0:15:13.876 --> 0:15:16.916 but you can join. And I think if you don't 0:15:16.956 --> 0:15:18.876 want to do it through grief, you can do it 0:15:19.796 --> 0:15:27.756 through volunteering or pastimes, you know, joining organizations, gardening clubs. 0:15:27.956 --> 0:15:30.316 Are you interested in art? Are you interested in music? 0:15:30.356 --> 0:15:33.476 Are you interested in nature? Do you like cycling? And 0:15:33.516 --> 0:15:37.156 so I think for someone who's grieving, what's difficult is 0:15:37.276 --> 0:15:40.636 taking themselves that one step out of their comfort zone 0:15:41.356 --> 0:15:44.716 to kind of say I need more help than I'm 0:15:44.716 --> 0:15:48.396 getting myself, because you can get into this incredibly negative 0:15:48.436 --> 0:15:52.196 cycle that nobody cares, nobody loves me, and nothing's going 0:15:52.276 --> 0:15:55.916 to make any difference. And the more you say that 0:15:56.036 --> 0:15:59.516 to yourself, the harder it is to take that first 0:15:59.556 --> 0:16:03.876 step and find a network that would meet you. But 0:16:03.996 --> 0:16:09.476 anyone listening, I would say, please just small for what 0:16:09.676 --> 0:16:13.516 you know, do small things. Don't set yourself to bigger task. 0:16:14.476 --> 0:16:18.356 Send the first email, do the first Google search, and 0:16:18.396 --> 0:16:20.476 then every day do a little step. You don't have 0:16:20.516 --> 0:16:22.636 to be in the group, like find out think about 0:16:22.676 --> 0:16:24.876 what you're interested in that can be your task day. 0:16:25.916 --> 0:16:28.116 Do a Google about what there is locally that can 0:16:28.156 --> 0:16:30.756 be a task another day. You know, so that you 0:16:30.836 --> 0:16:34.516 do incremental steps towards finding support for yourself. 0:16:35.716 --> 0:16:39.876 I love what you say about loneliness because the vag Morphy, 0:16:39.996 --> 0:16:43.196 who is the Surgeon General, he was going on a 0:16:43.196 --> 0:16:46.636 medical expedition, initially to different parts of the country, trying 0:16:46.676 --> 0:16:52.116 to understand these different health conditions like addiction and ABSI 0:16:52.236 --> 0:16:57.036 obesity exactly and ultimately found that loneliness was at its root. 0:16:57.636 --> 0:17:01.196 So I love the recommendations that you make around how 0:17:01.236 --> 0:17:03.356 any of us can try try and seek that out. 0:17:04.756 --> 0:17:08.236 I know the way that we grieve can be very idiosyncratic, 0:17:08.396 --> 0:17:13.956 based on so many factors, like our psychological wiring, our circumstances, 0:17:13.996 --> 0:17:16.716 what have you. But I know you have identified at 0:17:16.796 --> 0:17:19.956 least some common patterns across the people that you've worked with, 0:17:20.596 --> 0:17:23.276 especially in the aftermath of loss. Like I was just 0:17:23.756 --> 0:17:25.636 I was talking with a friend of mine, Quinn, who 0:17:26.196 --> 0:17:30.196 lost her nineteen year old sister, and I remember at 0:17:30.236 --> 0:17:34.716 the memorial service, she was saying, a part of me 0:17:34.756 --> 0:17:39.996 feels she's still coming home. You know, my rational brain 0:17:40.036 --> 0:17:44.156 fully registers that she's gone. But how could it be. 0:17:44.356 --> 0:17:47.596 How could it be that Dixie, who had the most 0:17:48.076 --> 0:17:50.876 promising future one can imagine, is gone, Like her brain 0:17:50.956 --> 0:17:56.116 wasn't able to make that connection. And so yeah, I 0:17:56.116 --> 0:17:59.036 would just love for you to unpack these two distinct 0:17:59.076 --> 0:18:02.116 frames of mind. And I like that you talk about 0:18:02.116 --> 0:18:03.636 it in terms of movement between the two. 0:18:05.116 --> 0:18:11.756 The adjustment to like your friend's sister dying suddenly and 0:18:12.076 --> 0:18:15.156 at nineteen, which is you know, a death out of time, 0:18:16.356 --> 0:18:20.956 that kind of out of the clear blue sky shock. 0:18:22.156 --> 0:18:25.076 The process of accommodation learning to live with it is 0:18:25.116 --> 0:18:28.276 a movement between facing the reality and feeling the pain 0:18:28.356 --> 0:18:31.556 where her head knew it but her heart didn't feel it. 0:18:32.716 --> 0:18:37.476 The pain kind of allows some connection between the two 0:18:37.476 --> 0:18:39.276 where the head and the heart are feeling it at 0:18:39.276 --> 0:18:43.036 the same time, like, ah, you know, I'm buying a 0:18:43.356 --> 0:18:46.436 set of yogurts for four and we're used to be 0:18:46.476 --> 0:18:49.396 four people are now we're only three. And in that 0:18:49.596 --> 0:18:54.476 moment you know it. And then in that moment, as 0:18:54.516 --> 0:18:57.556 you know, you kind of adjust and accommodate, and then 0:18:57.596 --> 0:19:02.556 it frees you to have a little breather and be restorative, 0:19:02.636 --> 0:19:07.316 like go home, make some supper, do something that soothes 0:19:07.356 --> 0:19:11.596 you that is intentionally calming, And it's the movement between 0:19:11.636 --> 0:19:15.556 the two. Allowing yourself to have times to remember to 0:19:15.596 --> 0:19:18.916 be sad, to talk to a friend, to grieve, and 0:19:18.996 --> 0:19:21.676 time to give yourself a break from grief, to give 0:19:21.716 --> 0:19:26.796 yourself permission to have moments of joy or moments of 0:19:26.876 --> 0:19:31.756 calm or kind of feel within yourself a sort of 0:19:31.796 --> 0:19:35.916 sense of peace that it isn't so raw. I think 0:19:36.876 --> 0:19:39.556 we can choose times that we focus on our loss, 0:19:39.556 --> 0:19:44.396 through having a memory box or different ways that we 0:19:44.476 --> 0:19:46.756 can decide to kind of focus on them, because I 0:19:46.756 --> 0:19:50.636 think one of the aspects that is also not kind 0:19:50.636 --> 0:19:55.756 of recognized is there's a dual process of facing the 0:19:55.796 --> 0:20:00.956 reality that this person is no longer physically present, but 0:20:01.076 --> 0:20:03.996 what we feel for them, our love for them, never dies. 0:20:04.476 --> 0:20:09.316 The love continues, and so it isn't about forgetting and 0:20:09.356 --> 0:20:15.956 moving on, It's about remembering and connecting. 0:20:17.556 --> 0:20:19.716 When we're back from the break, Julia will give us 0:20:19.756 --> 0:20:32.036 advice on how to process our grief. Julia Samuel has 0:20:32.076 --> 0:20:34.756 been a grief therapist for more than thirty years, much 0:20:34.796 --> 0:20:37.596 of that time working with the UK's National Health Service 0:20:37.836 --> 0:20:42.396 or NHS. Through her experiences, Julia has identified some things 0:20:42.436 --> 0:20:44.796 we can do to help us through the grieving process. 0:20:45.356 --> 0:20:48.076 She calls them pillars of strength, and we did a 0:20:48.076 --> 0:20:50.276 deep dive on a few of them in our conversation. 0:20:51.356 --> 0:20:55.156 So I came up with the pillars not as a 0:20:55.236 --> 0:21:00.196 kind of ten rules, but from a perspective of when 0:21:00.236 --> 0:21:04.556 we're in the throes of this tumultuous experience. When we 0:21:04.676 --> 0:21:08.276 feel like we have this hole in the center of 0:21:08.316 --> 0:21:14.636 our being. We need attitudes, ways of being, and behaviors 0:21:15.276 --> 0:21:17.596 that can hold us up when we feel kind of 0:21:17.676 --> 0:21:19.996 tipped and off kilter. 0:21:21.436 --> 0:21:22.956 And survival kit. 0:21:23.076 --> 0:21:24.236 It's your survival kit. 0:21:24.476 --> 0:21:25.996 Yeah. 0:21:26.076 --> 0:21:32.076 And I think the thing that helps people a lot 0:21:32.436 --> 0:21:35.236 is the relationship to the person that's died. So I've 0:21:35.316 --> 0:21:40.356 often people will once I talk to them about, you know, 0:21:41.036 --> 0:21:44.756 grieving and feeling the pain of their death, but also 0:21:44.756 --> 0:21:50.276 in continuing the relationship. People are amazingly creative in what 0:21:50.516 --> 0:21:54.236 they do. So one person her husband died and she 0:21:54.356 --> 0:22:01.276 got his pajamas and made them into a patchwork quilt 0:22:01.916 --> 0:22:05.156 that she put on their children's beds, so that they 0:22:05.236 --> 0:22:08.436 had all these little squares of their dad on their beds, 0:22:08.436 --> 0:22:10.876 so when they went sleep when they really missed him, 0:22:11.236 --> 0:22:15.156 they had some of their dad. And someone else had 0:22:15.396 --> 0:22:18.956 a son that died in a terrible car crash, and 0:22:18.996 --> 0:22:23.236 they didn't want other people to see their mementoes. But 0:22:23.436 --> 0:22:26.156 in their main kind of sitting room where they lived 0:22:26.156 --> 0:22:29.396 all the time, they had a trunk and inside the 0:22:29.476 --> 0:22:34.516 trunk was his trainers were his some of his school books, 0:22:34.956 --> 0:22:37.956 the wristband that he had when he died, a lot 0:22:37.996 --> 0:22:39.956 of his things that and some of them sort of 0:22:40.316 --> 0:22:43.876 still felt to them like they smelt of him, and 0:22:43.996 --> 0:22:47.956 so that he was there other people couldn't see, and 0:22:47.996 --> 0:22:50.596 when they wanted, they could open the trunk and she 0:22:50.676 --> 0:22:54.156 could put his T shirt, you know, into her nose 0:22:54.236 --> 0:22:59.356 and feel connected to him, and that would meet an 0:22:59.356 --> 0:23:03.076 expression of needing to love him, because it's that people 0:23:03.236 --> 0:23:08.116 miss the hugs, the telling them I love you, and 0:23:08.196 --> 0:23:11.716 they feel like they've failed, and so having something concrete 0:23:11.796 --> 0:23:17.196 that you can go to really helps. I think one 0:23:17.196 --> 0:23:21.596 of the other pillars that really helps is moving your body, 0:23:21.636 --> 0:23:24.596 you know, taking exercise, getting your heart rate up, because 0:23:25.116 --> 0:23:29.476 it reduces the cortisol. It brings your whole mind body 0:23:29.796 --> 0:23:34.356 connection down to kind of first gear where then you 0:23:34.396 --> 0:23:39.236 can get support, You can think more clearly, you can 0:23:39.356 --> 0:23:41.756 choose to do things that are kind of kind to 0:23:41.796 --> 0:23:46.036 you rather than out of desperation and fear. So I 0:23:46.036 --> 0:23:47.956 mean I say to people, one of the first things 0:23:47.996 --> 0:23:50.316 I say to any clients I said it this week 0:23:51.156 --> 0:23:55.276 is get outside, you know, even if it's going for 0:23:55.276 --> 0:23:57.876 a walk around the block, you know, on a pavement 0:23:57.996 --> 0:24:02.476 with tons of noise and cars ten minutes outside. You 0:24:02.516 --> 0:24:06.356 will always feel better if you can go into nature, 0:24:06.356 --> 0:24:09.076 if you can go into a park, that is even better. 0:24:09.796 --> 0:24:12.636 Because what you want is to choose things that help 0:24:12.796 --> 0:24:17.996 calibrate your over alert system, to help, you know, bring 0:24:17.996 --> 0:24:22.676 your system down, because then you then you can connect 0:24:22.716 --> 0:24:24.716 with other people and connect with yourself in a way 0:24:24.756 --> 0:24:28.116 that you can't and you're kind of really stressed, really 0:24:28.316 --> 0:24:29.236 kind of full of fear. 0:24:29.796 --> 0:24:32.356 One thing I read in your book about our relationship 0:24:32.356 --> 0:24:35.276 with ourselves that I just had never really thought about 0:24:35.636 --> 0:24:39.276 was the way in which the death of someone that 0:24:39.316 --> 0:24:43.276 we love can affect our self structure, our self identity, 0:24:45.116 --> 0:24:47.636 the way it can affect our self esteem and our 0:24:47.636 --> 0:24:52.276 confidence because of our inability to in those moments feel 0:24:52.276 --> 0:24:56.476 like we can fully be ourselves. And I resonated with 0:24:56.476 --> 0:24:58.996 that so much. I mean, as you know, and many 0:24:59.036 --> 0:25:01.796 of my listeners know because I shared this story on 0:25:01.836 --> 0:25:06.276 the show. You know, my husband Jimmy, and I lost 0:25:06.516 --> 0:25:12.916 identical twin girls to a miscarriage bias, and I don't 0:25:12.916 --> 0:25:16.556 think at the time I appreciated the loss of identity, 0:25:17.116 --> 0:25:18.916 and I think learning about that from you is really 0:25:18.916 --> 0:25:21.916 helpful to me, which is again it was a short 0:25:21.956 --> 0:25:24.196 lived period where I felt like I was a mom, 0:25:24.636 --> 0:25:29.076 or as you guys would say, a mom. And you know, 0:25:29.156 --> 0:25:32.076 from that first blue line on the pregnancy test, suddenly 0:25:32.636 --> 0:25:35.676 I feel like I'm a mother. And so when the 0:25:35.756 --> 0:25:41.076 loss happens, you're grieving, certainly the loss of that pregnancy, 0:25:41.116 --> 0:25:43.596 but you're also grieving the loss of an identity that 0:25:43.636 --> 0:25:44.956 you were aspiring to have. 0:25:47.156 --> 0:25:50.716 And when you saw that blue line, you pictured yourself 0:25:50.996 --> 0:25:53.876 as a mom holding a baby who would be a 0:25:53.956 --> 0:25:56.836 parent for the rest of her life. So you kind 0:25:56.836 --> 0:26:03.356 of grieving the dream as a mom, and that's incredibly painful. 0:26:03.516 --> 0:26:07.436 Yes, are there any other pillars of strength you'd like 0:26:07.476 --> 0:26:07.956 to share? 0:26:11.076 --> 0:26:14.956 I think the other ones that are really helpful are 0:26:16.196 --> 0:26:23.356 to do with limits, so that our capacity to manage 0:26:23.356 --> 0:26:26.996 ourselves to engage in the world of what we can do. 0:26:28.076 --> 0:26:34.156 Our boundaries change when am I grieving, and people often 0:26:34.476 --> 0:26:37.636