1 00:00:14,956 --> 00:00:23,836 Speaker 1: Pushkin hey Slight change listeners. It's Maya. We'll be back 2 00:00:23,876 --> 00:00:27,116 Speaker 1: with a new season on June fifth, but before then, 3 00:00:27,356 --> 00:00:29,836 Speaker 1: I wanted to share some of my favorite conversations with 4 00:00:29,916 --> 00:00:34,476 Speaker 1: scientists about mental health. Since May is Mental Health Awareness Month, 5 00:00:35,316 --> 00:00:39,116 Speaker 1: I hope you enjoy this conversation with grief therapist Julia Samuel. 6 00:00:39,796 --> 00:00:42,636 Speaker 1: It's full of wisdom. I still think about, like how 7 00:00:42,636 --> 00:00:45,356 Speaker 1: it's important to grieve the loss of identity that often 8 00:00:45,356 --> 00:00:49,116 Speaker 1: accompanies major life changes. I'd love to hear your thoughts 9 00:00:49,116 --> 00:00:52,276 Speaker 1: on this episode. You can find me on Instagram at 10 00:00:52,356 --> 00:00:53,476 Speaker 1: doctor Maya Shunker. 11 00:01:05,316 --> 00:01:09,796 Speaker 2: When you kind of in trauma, everything it's like your 12 00:01:09,836 --> 00:01:12,876 Speaker 2: body is on far and you're drowning at the same time, 13 00:01:13,436 --> 00:01:18,476 Speaker 2: so that everything is heywhaw. But by having small, bite sized, 14 00:01:19,236 --> 00:01:24,196 Speaker 2: very manageable structures and rituals, they just bring you down 15 00:01:24,316 --> 00:01:27,236 Speaker 2: a little bit to that sense of safety, and feeling 16 00:01:27,316 --> 00:01:30,316 Speaker 2: safe in your body and your mind and in your 17 00:01:30,436 --> 00:01:34,876 Speaker 2: home gives you a kind of robustness to deal with 18 00:01:34,956 --> 00:01:39,316 Speaker 2: the onslaught of the feelings of your trauma and the loss. 19 00:01:40,516 --> 00:01:43,276 Speaker 1: Julia Samuel has worked for thirty years as a grief 20 00:01:43,276 --> 00:01:46,156 Speaker 1: counselor in the UK and as an expert on trauma 21 00:01:46,196 --> 00:01:49,676 Speaker 1: and loss. She's also the author of two best selling books, 22 00:01:49,836 --> 00:01:54,036 Speaker 1: Grief Works and This Too Shall Pass. Julia has counseled 23 00:01:54,076 --> 00:01:57,356 Speaker 1: thousands of people through their grief and has identified strategies 24 00:01:57,356 --> 00:01:59,516 Speaker 1: that can help all of us navigate the loss of 25 00:01:59,556 --> 00:02:00,116 Speaker 1: a loved one. 26 00:02:01,196 --> 00:02:05,116 Speaker 2: You know, people say time is a great healer, and 27 00:02:06,756 --> 00:02:11,396 Speaker 2: the pain of grief does change over time, but if 28 00:02:11,436 --> 00:02:16,316 Speaker 2: we aren't active in the process of grieving, it doesn't 29 00:02:16,436 --> 00:02:21,116 Speaker 2: change so much. It just gets shut down. So the 30 00:02:21,516 --> 00:02:24,556 Speaker 2: things you do to block your pain are, in the 31 00:02:24,676 --> 00:02:27,396 Speaker 2: end the things that harm you over time. 32 00:02:29,236 --> 00:02:35,996 Speaker 1: On today's episode, Lessons from a Grief Therapist, I'm Maya Shunker, 33 00:02:36,156 --> 00:02:38,396 Speaker 1: and this is a slight change of plans, a show 34 00:02:38,436 --> 00:02:40,556 Speaker 1: about who we are and who we become in the 35 00:02:40,556 --> 00:02:49,076 Speaker 1: face of a big change. You know, Julia, you refer 36 00:02:49,116 --> 00:02:53,916 Speaker 1: to death as the great last taboo that we resist. 37 00:02:54,676 --> 00:02:57,956 Speaker 1: We resist using the word death. We prefer euphemisms like 38 00:02:58,556 --> 00:03:02,076 Speaker 1: loss and passed away. And we can be so scared 39 00:03:02,116 --> 00:03:05,676 Speaker 1: of death that sometimes we engage in magical thinking right 40 00:03:05,756 --> 00:03:08,636 Speaker 1: where we believe that maybe if we don't talk about it, 41 00:03:08,636 --> 00:03:12,436 Speaker 1: it won't have to us. And so, given this very 42 00:03:13,076 --> 00:03:18,396 Speaker 1: natural desire to resist talking or thinking about death. I'm 43 00:03:18,436 --> 00:03:22,596 Speaker 1: curious to know what led you initially to run directly 44 00:03:22,636 --> 00:03:26,036 Speaker 1: into the fire, directly into that emotional fire, and become 45 00:03:26,116 --> 00:03:27,076 Speaker 1: a grief therapist. 46 00:03:28,716 --> 00:03:31,636 Speaker 2: I mean, I don't think I recognized what I was doing. 47 00:03:31,716 --> 00:03:34,236 Speaker 2: I think like most of us probably don't realize until 48 00:03:34,356 --> 00:03:36,996 Speaker 2: after the fact and you look back and you go, oh, 49 00:03:37,116 --> 00:03:40,756 Speaker 2: that's what it was. You know. My parents are brought 50 00:03:40,836 --> 00:03:43,836 Speaker 2: up by parents who had survived the worst kind of 51 00:03:43,876 --> 00:03:47,356 Speaker 2: war in history, where everybody was grieving someone they loved, 52 00:03:47,556 --> 00:03:52,476 Speaker 2: a father, a son, a brother, a husband, and they 53 00:03:52,556 --> 00:03:59,356 Speaker 2: had no choices but to get on and multiply, and 54 00:03:59,836 --> 00:04:02,316 Speaker 2: no one was able to kind of take on anyone 55 00:04:02,316 --> 00:04:05,276 Speaker 2: else's grief. And then they had to do the same 56 00:04:05,716 --> 00:04:08,196 Speaker 2: after the Second World War. But both of my parents 57 00:04:08,236 --> 00:04:12,316 Speaker 2: had very signific, vocant and traumatic bereavement. So my mum, 58 00:04:13,036 --> 00:04:16,276 Speaker 2: by the time she was twenty five, her father, her mother, 59 00:04:17,036 --> 00:04:19,516 Speaker 2: her sister, and her brother had all died, so she 60 00:04:19,676 --> 00:04:24,116 Speaker 2: was an orphan. And my father, his father, and his 61 00:04:24,236 --> 00:04:26,676 Speaker 2: brother had also died by the time he was a 62 00:04:26,716 --> 00:04:33,036 Speaker 2: young man, so they had experienced really devastating death and 63 00:04:33,676 --> 00:04:37,596 Speaker 2: they literally never talked about it. It was like everything 64 00:04:38,916 --> 00:04:44,316 Speaker 2: that was painful and difficult, wasn't talked about and wasn't voiced, 65 00:04:44,716 --> 00:04:49,116 Speaker 2: and everything that really didn't matter and was inconsequential was 66 00:04:49,156 --> 00:04:52,036 Speaker 2: what we talked about. And I as a child, I 67 00:04:52,076 --> 00:04:54,116 Speaker 2: was one of five children, five of us born in 68 00:04:54,156 --> 00:04:56,556 Speaker 2: four years because I'm a twin and I have twin sisters, 69 00:04:57,956 --> 00:05:00,636 Speaker 2: and so I was quite quiet and un observer, and 70 00:05:00,716 --> 00:05:04,596 Speaker 2: I was always trying to work out what was going on, 71 00:05:05,716 --> 00:05:08,476 Speaker 2: and I could never really quite make sense of what 72 00:05:08,676 --> 00:05:13,836 Speaker 2: was going on. And so I think unconsciously that led me, 73 00:05:14,916 --> 00:05:16,436 Speaker 2: you know. And I was still quite young in my 74 00:05:16,556 --> 00:05:20,436 Speaker 2: late twenties to go into the area of bereavement. But 75 00:05:20,516 --> 00:05:24,756 Speaker 2: it wasn't because I knew it was because of my childhood. 76 00:05:25,116 --> 00:05:27,756 Speaker 2: It was just because what I was drawn to and 77 00:05:27,836 --> 00:05:32,316 Speaker 2: somehow fascinated by. But as I've had like thirty years 78 00:05:32,316 --> 00:05:36,476 Speaker 2: of therapy since I kind of that doesn't take much 79 00:05:36,516 --> 00:05:38,836 Speaker 2: to put the pieces of the jigsaw together. 80 00:05:39,916 --> 00:05:43,476 Speaker 1: You mentioned that growing up, no one spoke about it, 81 00:05:43,516 --> 00:05:47,836 Speaker 1: no one spoke about any of the deaths. And why 82 00:05:47,836 --> 00:05:49,956 Speaker 1: do you think we don't like talking about our feelings. 83 00:05:50,076 --> 00:05:53,076 Speaker 1: I mean, it just it feels so tragic and unfortunate 84 00:05:53,196 --> 00:05:56,236 Speaker 1: that we resist doing the very thing that can help 85 00:05:56,316 --> 00:05:58,116 Speaker 1: us in the face of a death. 86 00:05:59,116 --> 00:06:01,036 Speaker 2: I think that's a really good question. The sort of 87 00:06:01,076 --> 00:06:05,196 Speaker 2: paradox of by allowing us to feel the aspects of 88 00:06:05,236 --> 00:06:08,556 Speaker 2: ourselves that we most kind of fear, we do in 89 00:06:08,636 --> 00:06:09,556 Speaker 2: the end heal. 90 00:06:09,796 --> 00:06:10,036 Speaker 1: And I. 91 00:06:11,516 --> 00:06:14,636 Speaker 2: Think a lot of it is probably to do with 92 00:06:15,716 --> 00:06:20,756 Speaker 2: control and shame that somehow maybe you'd know the reasons 93 00:06:20,796 --> 00:06:26,476 Speaker 2: to do with evolutionary drives that in order to kind 94 00:06:26,516 --> 00:06:30,236 Speaker 2: of be out in the world and you know, thrive, 95 00:06:30,756 --> 00:06:35,796 Speaker 2: we have to show that we're strong and that we 96 00:06:36,836 --> 00:06:42,236 Speaker 2: can fend for ourselves and that we're not vulnerable. But also, 97 00:06:42,396 --> 00:06:46,636 Speaker 2: I mean, I think from the control perspective, it's that 98 00:06:46,876 --> 00:06:51,236 Speaker 2: what we feel is invisible. You know, most of grief 99 00:06:51,596 --> 00:06:55,996 Speaker 2: and emotions. You know, you can read some things on 100 00:06:56,076 --> 00:07:00,836 Speaker 2: someone's face, but they're all underground. So it's messy, it's chaotic, 101 00:07:02,036 --> 00:07:05,716 Speaker 2: and I think a lot of people when they talk 102 00:07:05,756 --> 00:07:08,316 Speaker 2: to me about grieving, they want to sort of maricondo 103 00:07:08,436 --> 00:07:15,276 Speaker 2: their feelings into kind of tidy sock draws, color coordinated 104 00:07:15,556 --> 00:07:18,396 Speaker 2: because you feel so powerless when you're grieving, that this 105 00:07:18,476 --> 00:07:22,596 Speaker 2: thing has happened to you and blown you off your center. 106 00:07:23,356 --> 00:07:26,916 Speaker 2: I think if you can kind of control your feelings, 107 00:07:26,956 --> 00:07:29,556 Speaker 2: then you feel like I can okay, I can survive this. 108 00:07:29,676 --> 00:07:34,316 Speaker 2: But when feelings hit you completely out of the blue, 109 00:07:34,476 --> 00:07:39,156 Speaker 2: then you feel in some way threatened, so you automatically 110 00:07:39,196 --> 00:07:43,796 Speaker 2: put on shields of defense. Of busyness. I think is 111 00:07:43,836 --> 00:07:49,516 Speaker 2: the most common, actually getting super busy, scrolling, running, because 112 00:07:49,556 --> 00:07:52,916 Speaker 2: then you feel like I'm in control, I've got this. 113 00:07:53,396 --> 00:07:56,076 Speaker 1: Is it correct for me to say then, that as 114 00:07:56,076 --> 00:07:59,276 Speaker 1: we're going about our normal lives, we experience the illusion 115 00:07:59,276 --> 00:08:02,716 Speaker 1: anyway that we are managing and controlling our feelings, and 116 00:08:02,756 --> 00:08:05,956 Speaker 1: then when something like a profound loss happens, a death 117 00:08:05,996 --> 00:08:09,796 Speaker 1: of someone who is so important to us, that illusion 118 00:08:09,836 --> 00:08:15,276 Speaker 1: evaporates because suddenly we're confronted with the enormity of the feelings. 119 00:08:15,276 --> 00:08:19,676 Speaker 1: And as you mentioned, they're messy and complicated and confusing 120 00:08:19,956 --> 00:08:23,796 Speaker 1: and overwhelming, and I guess we're taken by storm. And 121 00:08:23,836 --> 00:08:26,076 Speaker 1: that might be why we don't want to engage. We 122 00:08:26,076 --> 00:08:27,996 Speaker 1: don't want to take the lid off, because if we 123 00:08:28,036 --> 00:08:30,556 Speaker 1: see what's underneath there, it's just it all feels too 124 00:08:31,036 --> 00:08:33,396 Speaker 1: intimidating and overwhelming. Is that right? 125 00:08:33,956 --> 00:08:36,916 Speaker 2: I think that's absolutely right. And there's this sort of 126 00:08:37,796 --> 00:08:41,356 Speaker 2: blissful ignorance that when something terrible hasn't happened to us, 127 00:08:41,756 --> 00:08:46,476 Speaker 2: that we have control, that good things happen to good people, 128 00:08:47,476 --> 00:08:50,916 Speaker 2: that life has a kind of order that your parents 129 00:08:50,956 --> 00:08:53,636 Speaker 2: die first and you know you'll go next, and then 130 00:08:53,676 --> 00:08:59,036 Speaker 2: your children, and then having a devastating experience throws that 131 00:08:59,276 --> 00:09:03,556 Speaker 2: order completely off kilter. And also you have the feelings 132 00:09:03,596 --> 00:09:06,556 Speaker 2: that you do not want to have. You become a 133 00:09:06,676 --> 00:09:10,156 Speaker 2: version of yourself that you don't want to meet, where 134 00:09:10,196 --> 00:09:13,396 Speaker 2: you feel furious for seeing someone talk to their father 135 00:09:13,516 --> 00:09:17,596 Speaker 2: because your father's died, or they can't bear to see 136 00:09:17,916 --> 00:09:20,876 Speaker 2: other people or people laughing, which then you feel like 137 00:09:20,916 --> 00:09:25,636 Speaker 2: you're this joyless kind of ogre and you want to 138 00:09:25,636 --> 00:09:28,636 Speaker 2: be the old you that what light was in there 139 00:09:28,756 --> 00:09:33,356 Speaker 2: laughing with them. And that's what you're confronted with is 140 00:09:33,796 --> 00:09:37,396 Speaker 2: lots of aspects of yourself which when you're not suffering, 141 00:09:38,156 --> 00:09:39,076 Speaker 2: kind of go quiet. 142 00:09:39,556 --> 00:09:45,396 Speaker 1: Yeah, our most natural instinct is humans, is to avoid suffering. 143 00:09:45,876 --> 00:09:48,876 Speaker 1: But you do say that contrary to all of our instincts, 144 00:09:49,556 --> 00:09:52,636 Speaker 1: we have to allow ourselves to feel the pain in 145 00:09:52,756 --> 00:09:55,916 Speaker 1: order to make progress. Right, Your mantra is pain is 146 00:09:55,956 --> 00:09:59,876 Speaker 1: the agent of change. And to start, I'd love to 147 00:09:59,916 --> 00:10:01,556 Speaker 1: know what's led you to that. 148 00:10:01,556 --> 00:10:09,476 Speaker 2: Conclusion, emotions are transmitters of information, so that they are 149 00:10:10,276 --> 00:10:14,716 Speaker 2: informing us that something is up, and that our emotions 150 00:10:14,796 --> 00:10:18,636 Speaker 2: and our cognitions are reciprocal feeds, so that when we 151 00:10:18,756 --> 00:10:21,956 Speaker 2: have an experience of a feeling, it connects with our 152 00:10:21,996 --> 00:10:26,556 Speaker 2: thinking and we're saying to ourselves, I feel frightened, I 153 00:10:26,596 --> 00:10:30,396 Speaker 2: feel scared, I feel distressed. And then in the process 154 00:10:30,436 --> 00:10:34,156 Speaker 2: of that thinking, you then think, what's happened? Why am 155 00:10:34,196 --> 00:10:38,636 Speaker 2: I distressed? And you begin to develop a narrative that 156 00:10:38,796 --> 00:10:42,716 Speaker 2: is telling you the reason you're distress. And as you 157 00:10:42,836 --> 00:10:46,716 Speaker 2: do that, and as you express the feeling and say 158 00:10:46,796 --> 00:10:52,196 Speaker 2: the words, incrementally you adjust a little bit more to 159 00:10:52,316 --> 00:10:55,836 Speaker 2: this new reality that you didn't want and you didn't choose, 160 00:10:56,716 --> 00:10:59,956 Speaker 2: because your first response, or most people's first response to 161 00:11:00,036 --> 00:11:05,596 Speaker 2: grief is shock and numbness, and that it's surreal and 162 00:11:05,916 --> 00:11:10,036 Speaker 2: we can only feel the pain of it in very 163 00:11:10,156 --> 00:11:14,716 Speaker 2: tiny increments. If we felt it all at once in 164 00:11:14,756 --> 00:11:18,236 Speaker 2: that moment, I think it would kind of blow our 165 00:11:18,316 --> 00:11:24,436 Speaker 2: kind of brain circuits. And so the pain is slowly 166 00:11:25,876 --> 00:11:29,556 Speaker 2: forcing you to face this new reality, and as you 167 00:11:29,636 --> 00:11:34,876 Speaker 2: face it, you adapt, and as you adapt, it gives 168 00:11:34,876 --> 00:11:39,436 Speaker 2: space to kind of think about well, who am I now? 169 00:11:39,516 --> 00:11:41,396 Speaker 2: And how am I going to live now? And what 170 00:11:41,436 --> 00:11:44,716 Speaker 2: does this mean now? And what do I need? And 171 00:11:44,756 --> 00:11:47,196 Speaker 2: so then you can get your needs met. If you 172 00:11:47,316 --> 00:11:50,956 Speaker 2: shut all that down like my parents did, you function, 173 00:11:52,116 --> 00:11:57,036 Speaker 2: but your capacity to feel gets foreshortened so that you 174 00:11:57,076 --> 00:11:59,156 Speaker 2: wouldn't know what you were feeling, so you couldn't get 175 00:11:59,196 --> 00:12:02,156 Speaker 2: your needs met. So you may feel distressed, but then 176 00:12:02,196 --> 00:12:07,676 Speaker 2: you would use behaviors or other kind of mechanisms to 177 00:12:07,796 --> 00:12:08,556 Speaker 2: self medicate. 178 00:12:10,316 --> 00:12:14,076 Speaker 1: Yeah. No, I think it's so helpful to think about 179 00:12:14,076 --> 00:12:17,676 Speaker 1: it in terms of processing, because when we think about it, 180 00:12:17,676 --> 00:12:20,196 Speaker 1: it's just, at least for me on a personal level, 181 00:12:20,356 --> 00:12:22,756 Speaker 1: like Julia's prescription to me is to marinate in the pain. 182 00:12:22,836 --> 00:12:26,596 Speaker 1: I'm like, Okay, basically, you are prescribing hell on earth 183 00:12:26,676 --> 00:12:28,956 Speaker 1: to me. I don't want to do that, right but 184 00:12:29,156 --> 00:12:30,756 Speaker 1: for whatever reason, and I don't know if I'm the 185 00:12:30,796 --> 00:12:32,836 Speaker 1: only one who finds comfort in this When I see 186 00:12:32,876 --> 00:12:37,156 Speaker 1: it as a dynamic process where my mind is engaged 187 00:12:37,276 --> 00:12:41,396 Speaker 1: and I am in communication with my feelings, that feels 188 00:12:41,476 --> 00:12:45,996 Speaker 1: more manageable for me. So I'm feeling terror, I'm feeling panic, 189 00:12:46,076 --> 00:12:50,796 Speaker 1: I'm feeling distress. But there's a conversation happening where I'm 190 00:12:50,996 --> 00:12:53,716 Speaker 1: picking apart some of these emotions and trying to unpack them, 191 00:12:54,076 --> 00:12:56,956 Speaker 1: and then in the process maybe they lose some of 192 00:12:56,996 --> 00:12:58,396 Speaker 1: their power over me. You know. 193 00:12:59,396 --> 00:13:01,836 Speaker 2: I mean that is right. But the piece that you 194 00:13:01,956 --> 00:13:07,676 Speaker 2: haven't added, which I hope I say with equal force, 195 00:13:08,636 --> 00:13:12,076 Speaker 2: is that it's the love and connection to others that 196 00:13:12,356 --> 00:13:17,076 Speaker 2: enables us to survive when we feel the pain. I 197 00:13:17,156 --> 00:13:21,036 Speaker 2: really profoundly believe we can't do this alone and that 198 00:13:21,356 --> 00:13:24,116 Speaker 2: when love dies, it's the love of others we need most. 199 00:13:25,116 --> 00:13:31,316 Speaker 2: So that you need find ways of both supporting yourself personally. 200 00:13:31,396 --> 00:13:35,876 Speaker 2: And you know, one of the kind of cruel paradoxes 201 00:13:35,916 --> 00:13:39,716 Speaker 2: of grief is that often people turn against themselves and 202 00:13:39,836 --> 00:13:41,876 Speaker 2: have you know what I call a shitty committee where 203 00:13:41,876 --> 00:13:45,476 Speaker 2: they're attacking themselves. I'm an idiot, I'm a fool, all 204 00:13:45,516 --> 00:13:48,876 Speaker 2: that guilt of if only, what if? Why didn't I 205 00:13:50,876 --> 00:13:54,516 Speaker 2: And often don't seek support because there's this sense of 206 00:13:54,556 --> 00:13:58,956 Speaker 2: shame that I can't ask for help. But you need 207 00:13:59,316 --> 00:14:02,036 Speaker 2: both to be compassionate to yourself and to get the 208 00:14:02,076 --> 00:14:07,996 Speaker 2: support of other people so that that processing isn't chilly 209 00:14:08,076 --> 00:14:12,956 Speaker 2: and isolating and but is connected and that you can 210 00:14:13,036 --> 00:14:15,876 Speaker 2: feel the warmth and the heart of another person with you. 211 00:14:18,316 --> 00:14:21,436 Speaker 1: For the person who's listening who says, okay, Julie, I 212 00:14:21,476 --> 00:14:24,676 Speaker 1: totally understand that I need love to heal, but I 213 00:14:24,756 --> 00:14:28,556 Speaker 1: currently don't have those resources in my life. Where can 214 00:14:28,596 --> 00:14:30,636 Speaker 1: they begin? I mean, is there are there ways to 215 00:14:30,756 --> 00:14:34,476 Speaker 1: find that compassion in love? I mean, we do live 216 00:14:34,476 --> 00:14:37,076 Speaker 1: in a digital world where maybe it's possible to forge 217 00:14:37,076 --> 00:14:38,796 Speaker 1: connections that you might not have been able to. But 218 00:14:38,836 --> 00:14:40,756 Speaker 1: I just I want to give hope to the person 219 00:14:40,796 --> 00:14:43,036 Speaker 1: who says, okay. You know, the privileged among us might 220 00:14:43,116 --> 00:14:46,636 Speaker 1: have lots of love in our support networks, but I don't. 221 00:14:48,036 --> 00:14:50,716 Speaker 2: So I think the first place to turn is to yourself, 222 00:14:50,836 --> 00:14:54,716 Speaker 2: is to be self compassionate. And then you know, there 223 00:14:54,756 --> 00:14:58,996 Speaker 2: really are groups, a lot of support groups for people 224 00:14:58,996 --> 00:15:01,996 Speaker 2: that are grieving, and it's often the groups around the 225 00:15:02,756 --> 00:15:05,596 Speaker 2: relationship with the person that died, so you know, partners 226 00:15:05,596 --> 00:15:08,636 Speaker 2: that have died, or parents that have died, or children 227 00:15:08,676 --> 00:15:11,716 Speaker 2: that have died, so that you can find, you know, 228 00:15:11,756 --> 00:15:13,756 Speaker 2: this club that nobody wants to be a member of, 229 00:15:13,876 --> 00:15:16,916 Speaker 2: but you can join. And I think if you don't 230 00:15:16,956 --> 00:15:18,876 Speaker 2: want to do it through grief, you can do it 231 00:15:19,796 --> 00:15:27,756 Speaker 2: through volunteering or pastimes, you know, joining organizations, gardening clubs. 232 00:15:27,956 --> 00:15:30,316 Speaker 2: Are you interested in art? Are you interested in music? 233 00:15:30,356 --> 00:15:33,476 Speaker 2: Are you interested in nature? Do you like cycling? And 234 00:15:33,516 --> 00:15:37,156 Speaker 2: so I think for someone who's grieving, what's difficult is 235 00:15:37,276 --> 00:15:40,636 Speaker 2: taking themselves that one step out of their comfort zone 236 00:15:41,356 --> 00:15:44,716 Speaker 2: to kind of say I need more help than I'm 237 00:15:44,716 --> 00:15:48,396 Speaker 2: getting myself, because you can get into this incredibly negative 238 00:15:48,436 --> 00:15:52,196 Speaker 2: cycle that nobody cares, nobody loves me, and nothing's going 239 00:15:52,276 --> 00:15:55,916 Speaker 2: to make any difference. And the more you say that 240 00:15:56,036 --> 00:15:59,516 Speaker 2: to yourself, the harder it is to take that first 241 00:15:59,556 --> 00:16:03,876 Speaker 2: step and find a network that would meet you. But 242 00:16:03,996 --> 00:16:09,476 Speaker 2: anyone listening, I would say, please just small for what 243 00:16:09,676 --> 00:16:13,516 Speaker 2: you know, do small things. Don't set yourself to bigger task. 244 00:16:14,476 --> 00:16:18,356 Speaker 2: Send the first email, do the first Google search, and 245 00:16:18,396 --> 00:16:20,476 Speaker 2: then every day do a little step. You don't have 246 00:16:20,516 --> 00:16:22,636 Speaker 2: to be in the group, like find out think about 247 00:16:22,676 --> 00:16:24,876 Speaker 2: what you're interested in that can be your task day. 248 00:16:25,916 --> 00:16:28,116 Speaker 2: Do a Google about what there is locally that can 249 00:16:28,156 --> 00:16:30,756 Speaker 2: be a task another day. You know, so that you 250 00:16:30,836 --> 00:16:34,516 Speaker 2: do incremental steps towards finding support for yourself. 251 00:16:35,716 --> 00:16:39,876 Speaker 1: I love what you say about loneliness because the vag Morphy, 252 00:16:39,996 --> 00:16:43,196 Speaker 1: who is the Surgeon General, he was going on a 253 00:16:43,196 --> 00:16:46,636 Speaker 1: medical expedition, initially to different parts of the country, trying 254 00:16:46,676 --> 00:16:52,116 Speaker 1: to understand these different health conditions like addiction and ABSI 255 00:16:52,236 --> 00:16:57,036 Speaker 1: obesity exactly and ultimately found that loneliness was at its root. 256 00:16:57,636 --> 00:17:01,196 Speaker 1: So I love the recommendations that you make around how 257 00:17:01,236 --> 00:17:03,356 Speaker 1: any of us can try try and seek that out. 258 00:17:04,756 --> 00:17:08,236 Speaker 1: I know the way that we grieve can be very idiosyncratic, 259 00:17:08,396 --> 00:17:13,956 Speaker 1: based on so many factors, like our psychological wiring, our circumstances, 260 00:17:13,996 --> 00:17:16,716 Speaker 1: what have you. But I know you have identified at 261 00:17:16,796 --> 00:17:19,956 Speaker 1: least some common patterns across the people that you've worked with, 262 00:17:20,596 --> 00:17:23,276 Speaker 1: especially in the aftermath of loss. Like I was just 263 00:17:23,756 --> 00:17:25,636 Speaker 1: I was talking with a friend of mine, Quinn, who 264 00:17:26,196 --> 00:17:30,196 Speaker 1: lost her nineteen year old sister, and I remember at 265 00:17:30,236 --> 00:17:34,716 Speaker 1: the memorial service, she was saying, a part of me 266 00:17:34,756 --> 00:17:39,996 Speaker 1: feels she's still coming home. You know, my rational brain 267 00:17:40,036 --> 00:17:44,156 Speaker 1: fully registers that she's gone. But how could it be. 268 00:17:44,356 --> 00:17:47,596 Speaker 1: How could it be that Dixie, who had the most 269 00:17:48,076 --> 00:17:50,876 Speaker 1: promising future one can imagine, is gone, Like her brain 270 00:17:50,956 --> 00:17:56,116 Speaker 1: wasn't able to make that connection. And so yeah, I 271 00:17:56,116 --> 00:17:59,036 Speaker 1: would just love for you to unpack these two distinct 272 00:17:59,076 --> 00:18:02,116 Speaker 1: frames of mind. And I like that you talk about 273 00:18:02,116 --> 00:18:03,636 Speaker 1: it in terms of movement between the two. 274 00:18:05,116 --> 00:18:11,756 Speaker 2: The adjustment to like your friend's sister dying suddenly and 275 00:18:12,076 --> 00:18:15,156 Speaker 2: at nineteen, which is you know, a death out of time, 276 00:18:16,356 --> 00:18:20,956 Speaker 2: that kind of out of the clear blue sky shock. 277 00:18:22,156 --> 00:18:25,076 Speaker 2: The process of accommodation learning to live with it is 278 00:18:25,116 --> 00:18:28,276 Speaker 2: a movement between facing the reality and feeling the pain 279 00:18:28,356 --> 00:18:31,556 Speaker 2: where her head knew it but her heart didn't feel it. 280 00:18:32,716 --> 00:18:37,476 Speaker 2: The pain kind of allows some connection between the two 281 00:18:37,476 --> 00:18:39,276 Speaker 2: where the head and the heart are feeling it at 282 00:18:39,276 --> 00:18:43,036 Speaker 2: the same time, like, ah, you know, I'm buying a 283 00:18:43,356 --> 00:18:46,436 Speaker 2: set of yogurts for four and we're used to be 284 00:18:46,476 --> 00:18:49,396 Speaker 2: four people are now we're only three. And in that 285 00:18:49,596 --> 00:18:54,476 Speaker 2: moment you know it. And then in that moment, as 286 00:18:54,516 --> 00:18:57,556 Speaker 2: you know, you kind of adjust and accommodate, and then 287 00:18:57,596 --> 00:19:02,556 Speaker 2: it frees you to have a little breather and be restorative, 288 00:19:02,636 --> 00:19:07,316 Speaker 2: like go home, make some supper, do something that soothes 289 00:19:07,356 --> 00:19:11,596 Speaker 2: you that is intentionally calming, And it's the movement between 290 00:19:11,636 --> 00:19:15,556 Speaker 2: the two. Allowing yourself to have times to remember to 291 00:19:15,596 --> 00:19:18,916 Speaker 2: be sad, to talk to a friend, to grieve, and 292 00:19:18,996 --> 00:19:21,676 Speaker 2: time to give yourself a break from grief, to give 293 00:19:21,716 --> 00:19:26,796 Speaker 2: yourself permission to have moments of joy or moments of 294 00:19:26,876 --> 00:19:31,756 Speaker 2: calm or kind of feel within yourself a sort of 295 00:19:31,796 --> 00:19:35,916 Speaker 2: sense of peace that it isn't so raw. I think 296 00:19:36,876 --> 00:19:39,556 Speaker 2: we can choose times that we focus on our loss, 297 00:19:39,556 --> 00:19:44,396 Speaker 2: through having a memory box or different ways that we 298 00:19:44,476 --> 00:19:46,756 Speaker 2: can decide to kind of focus on them, because I 299 00:19:46,756 --> 00:19:50,636 Speaker 2: think one of the aspects that is also not kind 300 00:19:50,636 --> 00:19:55,756 Speaker 2: of recognized is there's a dual process of facing the 301 00:19:55,796 --> 00:20:00,956 Speaker 2: reality that this person is no longer physically present, but 302 00:20:01,076 --> 00:20:03,996 Speaker 2: what we feel for them, our love for them, never dies. 303 00:20:04,476 --> 00:20:09,316 Speaker 2: The love continues, and so it isn't about forgetting and 304 00:20:09,356 --> 00:20:15,956 Speaker 2: moving on, It's about remembering and connecting. 305 00:20:17,556 --> 00:20:19,716 Speaker 1: When we're back from the break, Julia will give us 306 00:20:19,756 --> 00:20:32,036 Speaker 1: advice on how to process our grief. Julia Samuel has 307 00:20:32,076 --> 00:20:34,756 Speaker 1: been a grief therapist for more than thirty years, much 308 00:20:34,796 --> 00:20:37,596 Speaker 1: of that time working with the UK's National Health Service 309 00:20:37,836 --> 00:20:42,396 Speaker 1: or NHS. Through her experiences, Julia has identified some things 310 00:20:42,436 --> 00:20:44,796 Speaker 1: we can do to help us through the grieving process. 311 00:20:45,356 --> 00:20:48,076 Speaker 1: She calls them pillars of strength, and we did a 312 00:20:48,076 --> 00:20:50,276 Speaker 1: deep dive on a few of them in our conversation. 313 00:20:51,356 --> 00:20:55,156 Speaker 2: So I came up with the pillars not as a 314 00:20:55,236 --> 00:21:00,196 Speaker 2: kind of ten rules, but from a perspective of when 315 00:21:00,236 --> 00:21:04,556 Speaker 2: we're in the throes of this tumultuous experience. When we 316 00:21:04,676 --> 00:21:08,276 Speaker 2: feel like we have this hole in the center of 317 00:21:08,316 --> 00:21:14,636 Speaker 2: our being. We need attitudes, ways of being, and behaviors 318 00:21:15,276 --> 00:21:17,596 Speaker 2: that can hold us up when we feel kind of 319 00:21:17,676 --> 00:21:19,996 Speaker 2: tipped and off kilter. 320 00:21:21,436 --> 00:21:22,956 Speaker 1: And survival kit. 321 00:21:23,076 --> 00:21:24,236 Speaker 2: It's your survival kit. 322 00:21:24,476 --> 00:21:25,996 Speaker 1: Yeah. 323 00:21:26,076 --> 00:21:32,076 Speaker 2: And I think the thing that helps people a lot 324 00:21:32,436 --> 00:21:35,236 Speaker 2: is the relationship to the person that's died. So I've 325 00:21:35,316 --> 00:21:40,356 Speaker 2: often people will once I talk to them about, you know, 326 00:21:41,036 --> 00:21:44,756 Speaker 2: grieving and feeling the pain of their death, but also 327 00:21:44,756 --> 00:21:50,276 Speaker 2: in continuing the relationship. People are amazingly creative in what 328 00:21:50,516 --> 00:21:54,236 Speaker 2: they do. So one person her husband died and she 329 00:21:54,356 --> 00:22:01,276 Speaker 2: got his pajamas and made them into a patchwork quilt 330 00:22:01,916 --> 00:22:05,156 Speaker 2: that she put on their children's beds, so that they 331 00:22:05,236 --> 00:22:08,436 Speaker 2: had all these little squares of their dad on their beds, 332 00:22:08,436 --> 00:22:10,876 Speaker 2: so when they went sleep when they really missed him, 333 00:22:11,236 --> 00:22:15,156 Speaker 2: they had some of their dad. And someone else had 334 00:22:15,396 --> 00:22:18,956 Speaker 2: a son that died in a terrible car crash, and 335 00:22:18,996 --> 00:22:23,236 Speaker 2: they didn't want other people to see their mementoes. But 336 00:22:23,436 --> 00:22:26,156 Speaker 2: in their main kind of sitting room where they lived 337 00:22:26,156 --> 00:22:29,396 Speaker 2: all the time, they had a trunk and inside the 338 00:22:29,476 --> 00:22:34,516 Speaker 2: trunk was his trainers were his some of his school books, 339 00:22:34,956 --> 00:22:37,956 Speaker 2: the wristband that he had when he died, a lot 340 00:22:37,996 --> 00:22:39,956 Speaker 2: of his things that and some of them sort of 341 00:22:40,316 --> 00:22:43,876 Speaker 2: still felt to them like they smelt of him, and 342 00:22:43,996 --> 00:22:47,956 Speaker 2: so that he was there other people couldn't see, and 343 00:22:47,996 --> 00:22:50,596 Speaker 2: when they wanted, they could open the trunk and she 344 00:22:50,676 --> 00:22:54,156 Speaker 2: could put his T shirt, you know, into her nose 345 00:22:54,236 --> 00:22:59,356 Speaker 2: and feel connected to him, and that would meet an 346 00:22:59,356 --> 00:23:03,076 Speaker 2: expression of needing to love him, because it's that people 347 00:23:03,236 --> 00:23:08,116 Speaker 2: miss the hugs, the telling them I love you, and 348 00:23:08,196 --> 00:23:11,716 Speaker 2: they feel like they've failed, and so having something concrete 349 00:23:11,796 --> 00:23:17,196 Speaker 2: that you can go to really helps. I think one 350 00:23:17,196 --> 00:23:21,596 Speaker 2: of the other pillars that really helps is moving your body, 351 00:23:21,636 --> 00:23:24,596 Speaker 2: you know, taking exercise, getting your heart rate up, because 352 00:23:25,116 --> 00:23:29,476 Speaker 2: it reduces the cortisol. It brings your whole mind body 353 00:23:29,796 --> 00:23:34,356 Speaker 2: connection down to kind of first gear where then you 354 00:23:34,396 --> 00:23:39,236 Speaker 2: can get support, You can think more clearly, you can 355 00:23:39,356 --> 00:23:41,756 Speaker 2: choose to do things that are kind of kind to 356 00:23:41,796 --> 00:23:46,036 Speaker 2: you rather than out of desperation and fear. So I 357 00:23:46,036 --> 00:23:47,956 Speaker 2: mean I say to people, one of the first things 358 00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:50,316 Speaker 2: I say to any clients I said it this week 359 00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:55,276 Speaker 2: is get outside, you know, even if it's going for 360 00:23:55,276 --> 00:23:57,876 Speaker 2: a walk around the block, you know, on a pavement 361 00:23:57,996 --> 00:24:02,476 Speaker 2: with tons of noise and cars ten minutes outside. You 362 00:24:02,516 --> 00:24:06,356 Speaker 2: will always feel better if you can go into nature, 363 00:24:06,356 --> 00:24:09,076 Speaker 2: if you can go into a park, that is even better. 364 00:24:09,796 --> 00:24:12,636 Speaker 2: Because what you want is to choose things that help 365 00:24:12,796 --> 00:24:17,996 Speaker 2: calibrate your over alert system, to help, you know, bring 366 00:24:17,996 --> 00:24:22,676 Speaker 2: your system down, because then you then you can connect 367 00:24:22,716 --> 00:24:24,716 Speaker 2: with other people and connect with yourself in a way 368 00:24:24,756 --> 00:24:28,116 Speaker 2: that you can't and you're kind of really stressed, really 369 00:24:28,316 --> 00:24:29,236 Speaker 2: kind of full of fear. 370 00:24:29,796 --> 00:24:32,356 Speaker 1: One thing I read in your book about our relationship 371 00:24:32,356 --> 00:24:35,276 Speaker 1: with ourselves that I just had never really thought about 372 00:24:35,636 --> 00:24:39,276 Speaker 1: was the way in which the death of someone that 373 00:24:39,316 --> 00:24:43,276 Speaker 1: we love can affect our self structure, our self identity, 374 00:24:45,116 --> 00:24:47,636 Speaker 1: the way it can affect our self esteem and our 375 00:24:47,636 --> 00:24:52,276 Speaker 1: confidence because of our inability to in those moments feel 376 00:24:52,276 --> 00:24:56,476 Speaker 1: like we can fully be ourselves. And I resonated with 377 00:24:56,476 --> 00:24:58,996 Speaker 1: that so much. I mean, as you know, and many 378 00:24:59,036 --> 00:25:01,796 Speaker 1: of my listeners know because I shared this story on 379 00:25:01,836 --> 00:25:06,276 Speaker 1: the show. You know, my husband Jimmy, and I lost 380 00:25:06,516 --> 00:25:12,916 Speaker 1: identical twin girls to a miscarriage bias, and I don't 381 00:25:12,916 --> 00:25:16,556 Speaker 1: think at the time I appreciated the loss of identity, 382 00:25:17,116 --> 00:25:18,916 Speaker 1: and I think learning about that from you is really 383 00:25:18,916 --> 00:25:21,916 Speaker 1: helpful to me, which is again it was a short 384 00:25:21,956 --> 00:25:24,196 Speaker 1: lived period where I felt like I was a mom, 385 00:25:24,636 --> 00:25:29,076 Speaker 1: or as you guys would say, a mom. And you know, 386 00:25:29,156 --> 00:25:32,076 Speaker 1: from that first blue line on the pregnancy test, suddenly 387 00:25:32,636 --> 00:25:35,676 Speaker 1: I feel like I'm a mother. And so when the 388 00:25:35,756 --> 00:25:41,076 Speaker 1: loss happens, you're grieving, certainly the loss of that pregnancy, 389 00:25:41,116 --> 00:25:43,596 Speaker 1: but you're also grieving the loss of an identity that 390 00:25:43,636 --> 00:25:44,956 Speaker 1: you were aspiring to have. 391 00:25:47,156 --> 00:25:50,716 Speaker 2: And when you saw that blue line, you pictured yourself 392 00:25:50,996 --> 00:25:53,876 Speaker 2: as a mom holding a baby who would be a 393 00:25:53,956 --> 00:25:56,836 Speaker 2: parent for the rest of her life. So you kind 394 00:25:56,836 --> 00:26:03,356 Speaker 2: of grieving the dream as a mom, and that's incredibly painful. 395 00:26:03,516 --> 00:26:07,436 Speaker 1: Yes, are there any other pillars of strength you'd like 396 00:26:07,476 --> 00:26:07,956 Speaker 1: to share? 397 00:26:11,076 --> 00:26:14,956 Speaker 2: I think the other ones that are really helpful are 398 00:26:16,196 --> 00:26:23,356 Speaker 2: to do with limits, so that our capacity to manage 399 00:26:23,356 --> 00:26:26,996 Speaker 2: ourselves to engage in the world of what we can do. 400 00:26:28,076 --> 00:26:34,156 Speaker 2: Our boundaries change when am I grieving, and people often 401 00:26:34,476 --> 00:26:37,636 Speaker 2: push us to come and do something or want us 402 00:26:37,636 --> 00:26:40,596 Speaker 2: to be okay because they want us to kind of 403 00:26:40,836 --> 00:26:47,236 Speaker 2: be okay, and so kind of recognizing how important your 404 00:26:47,276 --> 00:26:50,916 Speaker 2: boundaries are when you're so out of control, and that 405 00:26:51,036 --> 00:26:54,276 Speaker 2: having a good no means that when you say yes, 406 00:26:54,356 --> 00:26:56,636 Speaker 2: it's a really good yes, and that can be very 407 00:26:56,676 --> 00:27:00,956 Speaker 2: positive and confident building. So it's not saying no to 408 00:27:00,996 --> 00:27:04,396 Speaker 2: the world, but really assessing of, well, how much energy 409 00:27:04,396 --> 00:27:07,876 Speaker 2: do I have? Will this be? Can I cope with this? 410 00:27:08,556 --> 00:27:10,436 Speaker 2: Do I dare go out of my comfort zone? Maybe 411 00:27:10,436 --> 00:27:12,036 Speaker 2: it's good a little bit, you know, all of those 412 00:27:12,076 --> 00:27:17,116 Speaker 2: things and deciding rather than kind of pushing through, which 413 00:27:17,116 --> 00:27:18,556 Speaker 2: I think people often want to do. 414 00:27:19,876 --> 00:27:22,476 Speaker 1: I think one that I one of the pillars that 415 00:27:22,516 --> 00:27:28,076 Speaker 1: I have relied on during what's been just incredibly hard 416 00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:32,116 Speaker 1: period of time for the entire world has been I 417 00:27:32,116 --> 00:27:34,636 Speaker 1: think you would catch this under your structure pillar. But 418 00:27:35,476 --> 00:27:39,516 Speaker 1: having extremely small rituals in my day to day life 419 00:27:39,596 --> 00:27:43,276 Speaker 1: that without fail I try and do and for me, look, 420 00:27:43,316 --> 00:27:45,076 Speaker 1: I know you're a tea lover, Julius, so you're going 421 00:27:45,156 --> 00:27:47,796 Speaker 1: to find resonance in this one. But it is making 422 00:27:47,836 --> 00:27:52,036 Speaker 1: myself a cup of Indian style tea. So I get 423 00:27:52,036 --> 00:27:57,116 Speaker 1: out the fresh ginger CARDIVM boil milk. All you Indian 424 00:27:57,116 --> 00:27:59,676 Speaker 1: people out there know what I'm talking about. It's the 425 00:27:59,676 --> 00:28:04,516 Speaker 1: most delightful, wonderful part of my day. And every morning 426 00:28:04,956 --> 00:28:08,996 Speaker 1: I start off with at least two cups, and you know, 427 00:28:10,396 --> 00:28:13,876 Speaker 1: I sometimes do it begrudgingly because when there is trauma 428 00:28:13,956 --> 00:28:18,876 Speaker 1: and grief, it doesn't feel like it fits. It feels 429 00:28:18,956 --> 00:28:22,476 Speaker 1: jarring to have that kind of indulgence against the backdrop 430 00:28:22,556 --> 00:28:27,756 Speaker 1: of pain. But just the mere fact I'm engaging in 431 00:28:27,996 --> 00:28:31,996 Speaker 1: what I would call a normal behavior is therapeutic in 432 00:28:31,996 --> 00:28:34,316 Speaker 1: its own way. It signals to the subconscious part of 433 00:28:34,316 --> 00:28:37,436 Speaker 1: my brain that there are some parts of life that 434 00:28:37,476 --> 00:28:38,196 Speaker 1: are still okay. 435 00:28:39,876 --> 00:28:44,556 Speaker 2: I think that's so beautiful. And in some ways it's 436 00:28:44,596 --> 00:28:47,556 Speaker 2: simple but complex what you're saying, in the sense that 437 00:28:48,996 --> 00:28:51,996 Speaker 2: kind of that's a structure that is really a ritual, 438 00:28:52,436 --> 00:28:56,116 Speaker 2: isn't it. That is a self soothing, calming, safe place, 439 00:28:56,236 --> 00:28:59,036 Speaker 2: ritual that takes you back to your roots and your family, 440 00:28:59,876 --> 00:29:01,996 Speaker 2: you know, to all that you understand and where you 441 00:29:02,036 --> 00:29:06,116 Speaker 2: feel safe. And as you say, when you're kind of 442 00:29:06,676 --> 00:29:10,156 Speaker 2: in trauma, everything is like your body is on far 443 00:29:10,356 --> 00:29:13,876 Speaker 2: and you're drowning at the same time, so that everything 444 00:29:13,996 --> 00:29:19,796 Speaker 2: is heywhire. But by having small, bite sized, very manageable 445 00:29:19,996 --> 00:29:24,316 Speaker 2: structures and rituals again, they just bring you down a 446 00:29:24,356 --> 00:29:27,556 Speaker 2: little bit to that sense of safety, and feeling safe 447 00:29:27,596 --> 00:29:30,676 Speaker 2: in your body and your mind and in your home 448 00:29:31,516 --> 00:29:34,996 Speaker 2: gives you a kind of robustness to deal with the 449 00:29:35,036 --> 00:29:39,236 Speaker 2: onslaught of the feelings of your trauma and the loss. 450 00:29:39,316 --> 00:29:43,476 Speaker 1: Yeah, so we've talked a bit about how we can 451 00:29:43,516 --> 00:29:47,836 Speaker 1: help ourselves in the throes of grief, and I'm wondering 452 00:29:47,916 --> 00:29:50,516 Speaker 1: what we should keep in mind when a person we 453 00:29:50,556 --> 00:29:53,396 Speaker 1: love has lost someone and we're so eager to help, 454 00:29:53,516 --> 00:29:56,956 Speaker 1: and naturally the answers don't feel clear to us. 455 00:30:00,276 --> 00:30:02,516 Speaker 2: I mean, what did you need from others? 456 00:30:04,116 --> 00:30:08,796 Speaker 1: It's a great question. I think what I needed from 457 00:30:08,836 --> 00:30:15,276 Speaker 1: people was helping me understand what I needed. I didn't 458 00:30:15,316 --> 00:30:18,876 Speaker 1: know what I needed, and I was so perplexed and 459 00:30:18,876 --> 00:30:21,916 Speaker 1: I was so confused. I remember texting my brother because 460 00:30:21,956 --> 00:30:24,116 Speaker 1: he was like, I don't know what you need right now, 461 00:30:24,156 --> 00:30:25,676 Speaker 1: and I want to be there for you and I 462 00:30:25,676 --> 00:30:27,516 Speaker 1: want to support you. And I said, I don't know 463 00:30:27,596 --> 00:30:29,836 Speaker 1: what I need right now, and I'm sorry that I 464 00:30:29,876 --> 00:30:32,916 Speaker 1: don't have that clarity. And I'm not trying to be 465 00:30:32,956 --> 00:30:36,036 Speaker 1: flip or anything. I just I don't know. And I 466 00:30:36,036 --> 00:30:39,436 Speaker 1: think actually calling upon the people you love to help 467 00:30:39,476 --> 00:30:43,156 Speaker 1: you figure that out, to actually bring them in on 468 00:30:43,196 --> 00:30:47,036 Speaker 1: the journey with you, to test things out, and almost 469 00:30:47,116 --> 00:30:49,676 Speaker 1: view it as an experimental process that you're in together. 470 00:30:49,916 --> 00:30:54,956 Speaker 1: I think that's maybe what's helpful to me in these moments. 471 00:30:56,316 --> 00:31:00,636 Speaker 2: I mean, that sounds so rare and so unique that 472 00:31:00,716 --> 00:31:04,636 Speaker 2: you had open and trust in communication like Kim saying 473 00:31:05,276 --> 00:31:08,756 Speaker 2: I don't know what you need. I just want you 474 00:31:08,796 --> 00:31:10,556 Speaker 2: to know that I love you and that I'm here, 475 00:31:11,276 --> 00:31:13,756 Speaker 2: and that you were able to say back, I really 476 00:31:13,796 --> 00:31:16,756 Speaker 2: don't know what I need either, that you were completely 477 00:31:16,756 --> 00:31:23,156 Speaker 2: transparent with each other. Often in families, people say I'm fine, 478 00:31:23,236 --> 00:31:25,436 Speaker 2: how are you? 479 00:31:25,436 --> 00:31:25,676 Speaker 1: You know? 480 00:31:25,836 --> 00:31:30,876 Speaker 2: It becomes and the walls of protection, which are meant 481 00:31:30,876 --> 00:31:35,036 Speaker 2: to protect the other person from suffering, are often walls 482 00:31:35,076 --> 00:31:39,636 Speaker 2: that creates gaps of connection where people then suffer in 483 00:31:39,676 --> 00:31:41,076 Speaker 2: isolation and more. 484 00:31:42,396 --> 00:31:46,516 Speaker 1: I'm just remembering too, that one breakthrough I had with 485 00:31:46,556 --> 00:31:51,556 Speaker 1: my brother was telling him in part why I was 486 00:31:51,596 --> 00:31:54,916 Speaker 1: pushing him away, and that was because I was jealous 487 00:31:54,916 --> 00:31:58,876 Speaker 1: of him. He has three beautiful daughters, my nieces, who 488 00:31:58,916 --> 00:32:02,316 Speaker 1: I love more than anything, and in that moment, I 489 00:32:02,396 --> 00:32:05,516 Speaker 1: resented that that wasn't my life. I resented that he 490 00:32:05,596 --> 00:32:08,116 Speaker 1: hadn't gone through this path like all things you hate 491 00:32:08,236 --> 00:32:11,596 Speaker 1: admitting but are just true. And I felt like easy 492 00:32:11,636 --> 00:32:13,756 Speaker 1: for you to say, easy for you to say with 493 00:32:13,836 --> 00:32:16,836 Speaker 1: your perfect family, that's the instinct and of course that's 494 00:32:16,916 --> 00:32:20,436 Speaker 1: such a disservice to his life too, which is of 495 00:32:20,476 --> 00:32:24,116 Speaker 1: course not you know, no one's life is the picture 496 00:32:24,156 --> 00:32:26,076 Speaker 1: perfect thing. But in that moment, I think I was. 497 00:32:26,756 --> 00:32:30,636 Speaker 1: I was filled with that kind of frustration and resentment, 498 00:32:30,756 --> 00:32:37,076 Speaker 1: and just telling him, admitting to that was it helped 499 00:32:37,076 --> 00:32:40,076 Speaker 1: to bridge an important gap that I was feeling. So 500 00:32:40,116 --> 00:32:41,996 Speaker 1: I don't know if that helps anyone listening that, Like, 501 00:32:42,036 --> 00:32:43,116 Speaker 1: sometimes just. 502 00:32:43,116 --> 00:32:44,316 Speaker 2: Admit to it. 503 00:32:44,556 --> 00:32:48,236 Speaker 1: Yeah, to say it to the person, it's okay, you know. 504 00:32:48,836 --> 00:32:52,116 Speaker 2: But it actually takes insight to know that it was 505 00:32:52,156 --> 00:32:55,396 Speaker 2: the jealousy of him with his three daughters that was 506 00:32:55,436 --> 00:32:58,836 Speaker 2: blocking you, because sometimes it's hard to kind of recognize 507 00:32:59,236 --> 00:33:02,636 Speaker 2: you with your perfect exactly. 508 00:33:03,076 --> 00:33:05,156 Speaker 1: And like, why was it that my child free friends 509 00:33:05,156 --> 00:33:07,636 Speaker 1: were able to bring me more comfort in those days? 510 00:33:07,796 --> 00:33:07,956 Speaker 2: Well? 511 00:33:08,036 --> 00:33:11,316 Speaker 1: Duh, right? Why was I not pushing them away? Why 512 00:33:11,396 --> 00:33:13,116 Speaker 1: was I more willing to want to talk to them? 513 00:33:13,356 --> 00:33:13,556 Speaker 1: You know? 514 00:33:13,796 --> 00:33:17,996 Speaker 2: Yes, but you have a lot of self knowledge, and 515 00:33:18,156 --> 00:33:24,076 Speaker 2: naming what's difficult often bridges the gap, doesn't it. Yeah, No, 516 00:33:24,116 --> 00:33:29,516 Speaker 2: I doubt justifying it, not explaining it, just saying and he'll. 517 00:33:29,156 --> 00:33:34,676 Speaker 1: Get that, yeah, yeah he did. You know, Julia, you 518 00:33:35,436 --> 00:33:39,716 Speaker 1: spent thirty years in this space, and you've had the 519 00:33:39,796 --> 00:33:43,236 Speaker 1: rare experience of counseling so many people through the worst 520 00:33:43,276 --> 00:33:46,996 Speaker 1: moments of their lives. I'm sure your patients have taught 521 00:33:47,036 --> 00:33:49,756 Speaker 1: you countless lessons. You say as much in your book, 522 00:33:50,196 --> 00:33:53,796 Speaker 1: But I'm wondering if there was any particular patient or 523 00:33:53,836 --> 00:33:58,916 Speaker 1: story that changed you in a significant way, you. 524 00:33:58,876 --> 00:34:03,636 Speaker 2: Know, working in the NHS where children died, you know, 525 00:34:03,716 --> 00:34:07,076 Speaker 2: completely out of the blue or with a terrible diagnosis, 526 00:34:07,396 --> 00:34:12,316 Speaker 2: or all the different ways it's done. Two things. One 527 00:34:12,396 --> 00:34:15,476 Speaker 2: is I have more fear for my own children and 528 00:34:15,516 --> 00:34:17,636 Speaker 2: grandchildren because I really know in a way that I 529 00:34:17,676 --> 00:34:21,156 Speaker 2: can't not know that they can die. So when they 530 00:34:21,156 --> 00:34:23,036 Speaker 2: have a headache, I think they have a brain humor, 531 00:34:23,076 --> 00:34:26,756 Speaker 2: when they're late, I think they've been run over. It 532 00:34:26,916 --> 00:34:31,356 Speaker 2: drives them nuts. My son now when he says call me, 533 00:34:31,396 --> 00:34:33,396 Speaker 2: he always puts brackets, not bad news. 534 00:34:35,956 --> 00:34:36,956 Speaker 1: That's so sweet. 535 00:34:41,076 --> 00:34:46,756 Speaker 2: At the other end of that is just enormous or 536 00:34:47,036 --> 00:34:50,396 Speaker 2: at the preciousness of life and what people like you 537 00:34:51,596 --> 00:34:55,276 Speaker 2: can survive and still live and love again and dare 538 00:34:55,316 --> 00:35:02,956 Speaker 2: to and the extraordinariness of human beings and the people 539 00:35:02,996 --> 00:35:05,196 Speaker 2: I've worked with, and you know, just knowing you and 540 00:35:05,236 --> 00:35:09,076 Speaker 2: seeing you that we can do that, and that feels 541 00:35:09,276 --> 00:35:18,436 Speaker 2: so extraordinary, and so I feel very grateful every day 542 00:35:18,436 --> 00:35:23,236 Speaker 2: that I'm live. So, you know, every night I don't 543 00:35:23,276 --> 00:35:25,476 Speaker 2: really believe in God per se, but I thank God 544 00:35:25,596 --> 00:35:27,476 Speaker 2: and I say all my children's names, I say my 545 00:35:27,556 --> 00:35:31,516 Speaker 2: husband's name and my grandchildren's names that they're alive. And 546 00:35:31,836 --> 00:35:33,916 Speaker 2: that gratitude really works for me. 547 00:35:36,476 --> 00:35:39,836 Speaker 1: What's your advice to us when it comes to what 548 00:35:39,876 --> 00:35:44,596 Speaker 1: we should do more of in life to manage our 549 00:35:44,636 --> 00:35:49,196 Speaker 1: grief better when it does happen, when it inevitably happens. 550 00:35:49,716 --> 00:35:54,956 Speaker 2: I think important conversations with the people that you love 551 00:35:55,196 --> 00:35:58,516 Speaker 2: about death and dying, your own and theirs can really 552 00:35:58,556 --> 00:36:02,956 Speaker 2: help you when it happens, because you have some recognition 553 00:36:03,396 --> 00:36:07,436 Speaker 2: that we're all mortal, and I think that is very supportive. 554 00:36:09,196 --> 00:36:15,076 Speaker 2: And I think the big thing is to really learn 555 00:36:15,156 --> 00:36:18,436 Speaker 2: to kind of support ourselves with you know, we don't 556 00:36:18,436 --> 00:36:21,916 Speaker 2: always have to face grief from death to have difficult things, 557 00:36:21,956 --> 00:36:27,596 Speaker 2: but by finding our own toolkit within ourselves of how 558 00:36:27,636 --> 00:36:33,116 Speaker 2: we manage difficulty and that we can then access that 559 00:36:33,516 --> 00:36:38,796 Speaker 2: when the difficulty gets worse, will really help us. Don't 560 00:36:38,836 --> 00:36:41,196 Speaker 2: go close your eyes. Bad things aren't going to happen 561 00:36:41,276 --> 00:36:42,756 Speaker 2: to me, bad things aren't going to happen to me, 562 00:36:42,796 --> 00:36:46,156 Speaker 2: because then when it happens, you are really left with 563 00:36:46,996 --> 00:36:50,596 Speaker 2: so little inside yourself that can support you. So develop 564 00:36:51,196 --> 00:36:55,716 Speaker 2: good support systems, both as much as possible with your 565 00:36:55,756 --> 00:36:58,916 Speaker 2: friendships and your family, but also internally. 566 00:36:59,516 --> 00:37:03,636 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, all right. I'll end on a beautiful quote 567 00:37:03,636 --> 00:37:07,116 Speaker 1: of yours, which you've already alluded to, that you say, 568 00:37:07,476 --> 00:37:09,956 Speaker 1: when there is death, love is the only way forward. 569 00:37:11,556 --> 00:37:13,236 Speaker 1: Do you mind just sharing what that means to you 570 00:37:13,396 --> 00:37:14,436 Speaker 1: on a personal level. 571 00:37:15,716 --> 00:37:18,156 Speaker 2: I think in the end, the anything that really matters 572 00:37:18,236 --> 00:37:21,636 Speaker 2: is love. When we look back at our lives, it's 573 00:37:22,636 --> 00:37:24,956 Speaker 2: the love we've felt for others and that they felt 574 00:37:24,996 --> 00:37:31,116 Speaker 2: for us that gives us meaning. And that's that's the 575 00:37:31,156 --> 00:37:32,116 Speaker 2: thing that matters most. 576 00:37:51,116 --> 00:37:53,836 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is created, written, and executive 577 00:37:53,836 --> 00:37:57,436 Speaker 1: produced by me Maya Schunker. The Slight Change family includes 578 00:37:57,476 --> 00:38:01,236 Speaker 1: Tyler Green, our senior producer, Emily Rosstek, our producer and 579 00:38:01,316 --> 00:38:05,196 Speaker 1: fact checker, Jen Guera, our senior editor, Ben Holliday, our 580 00:38:05,276 --> 00:38:09,756 Speaker 1: sound engineer, and Neil LaBelle, our executive producer. Louis Scara 581 00:38:09,836 --> 00:38:12,836 Speaker 1: wrote our theme song, and Ginger Smith helped arrange the vocals. 582 00:38:13,516 --> 00:38:16,436 Speaker 1: A Slight Change of Plans is a production of Pushkin Industries, 583 00:38:16,636 --> 00:38:20,796 Speaker 1: so big thanks to everyone there, including Nicole Morano, Maggie Taylor, 584 00:38:21,036 --> 00:38:25,156 Speaker 1: Eric Sandler, Heather Fame and Carly mcgliori, and of course 585 00:38:25,356 --> 00:38:28,676 Speaker 1: a very special thanks to Jimmy Lee. You can follow 586 00:38:28,716 --> 00:38:31,836 Speaker 1: a slight change of Plans on Instagram at doctor Maiah Schunker. 587 00:38:32,756 --> 00:38:33,596 Speaker 1: See you next week.