1 00:00:01,240 --> 00:00:06,040 Speaker 1: Welcome to Zero. I'm Akshatrati. This week, red state, blue state, 2 00:00:06,320 --> 00:00:22,720 Speaker 1: green state. Policy can make or break climate solutions, and 3 00:00:22,920 --> 00:00:25,200 Speaker 1: most of the time when you hear the word policy, 4 00:00:25,560 --> 00:00:29,280 Speaker 1: it refers to rules set out by national governments, but 5 00:00:29,480 --> 00:00:32,800 Speaker 1: what local and regional governments do can sometimes make a 6 00:00:32,880 --> 00:00:37,159 Speaker 1: bigger difference, especially in large countries like the US, India, 7 00:00:37,200 --> 00:00:41,040 Speaker 1: and China. Today, we're going to explore how climate policy 8 00:00:41,080 --> 00:00:43,360 Speaker 1: is playing out across the US with the help of 9 00:00:43,440 --> 00:00:48,720 Speaker 1: three governors from three very different states, Washington, New Mexico, 10 00:00:48,920 --> 00:00:52,640 Speaker 1: and Indiana. The politics of each of these states shows 11 00:00:52,680 --> 00:00:55,959 Speaker 1: the breadth of climate debate across the US. Two states, 12 00:00:56,120 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 1: New Mexico and Washington, are led by Democrats and the other, Indiana, 13 00:01:01,000 --> 00:01:04,320 Speaker 1: by a Republican. One is a major oil and gas producer, 14 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,120 Speaker 1: while another is the country's largest maker of steel. One 15 00:01:08,200 --> 00:01:11,959 Speaker 1: has a governor who ran unsuccessfully for president, but whose 16 00:01:12,000 --> 00:01:16,560 Speaker 1: ideas ended up becoming national climate policy. Anyway, the governor 17 00:01:16,640 --> 00:01:19,080 Speaker 1: is the highest elected official in a state, and what 18 00:01:19,160 --> 00:01:23,400 Speaker 1: they do now can supercharge national climate action or hinder it. 19 00:01:23,880 --> 00:01:27,039 Speaker 1: Take the Inflation Reduction Act. You've heard us talk about 20 00:01:27,080 --> 00:01:30,320 Speaker 1: it one hundred times already on zero. Although this is 21 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:33,520 Speaker 1: a federal bill, individual states will determine a lot of 22 00:01:33,560 --> 00:01:36,840 Speaker 1: how that money gets spent. Estimates say that the law 23 00:01:36,840 --> 00:01:39,800 Speaker 1: could move some three hundred and seventy billion dollars into 24 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:42,840 Speaker 1: climate tech over the coming decade, but it could be 25 00:01:42,880 --> 00:01:46,080 Speaker 1: a lot more, hundreds of billions of dollars more, if 26 00:01:46,120 --> 00:01:49,920 Speaker 1: state governments embrace the bill. This week, we find out 27 00:01:50,000 --> 00:01:54,560 Speaker 1: how different governors work on climate policy while navigating fractious politics, 28 00:01:54,960 --> 00:01:57,160 Speaker 1: how each walks a different line when it comes to 29 00:01:57,160 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: climate action, and why Republicans can also love solar. 30 00:02:13,000 --> 00:02:15,760 Speaker 2: I'm Jay Insley, and I'm running for president because I'm 31 00:02:15,800 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 2: the only candidate who will make defeating climate change our 32 00:02:19,480 --> 00:02:21,720 Speaker 2: nation's number one priority. 33 00:02:21,480 --> 00:02:24,560 Speaker 1: For a decade. Jay Insley has been the governor of Washington. 34 00:02:24,919 --> 00:02:27,280 Speaker 1: He ran to be his party's candidate for president for 35 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:29,920 Speaker 1: the twenty twenty election. With a focus on climate. 36 00:02:30,080 --> 00:02:33,600 Speaker 2: We have an opportunity to transform our economy. Run on 37 00:02:33,600 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 2: one clean energy there will bring millions there. 38 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:40,040 Speaker 1: Although in the end he was unsuccessful, his campaign outlined 39 00:02:40,080 --> 00:02:43,640 Speaker 1: many policies that later became part of the Inflation Reduction Act. 40 00:02:44,400 --> 00:02:48,359 Speaker 1: His state, Washington, is in the Northwest and votes deeply democratic. 41 00:02:49,000 --> 00:02:51,519 Speaker 1: Its largest city is Seattle, and it has given birth 42 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:55,240 Speaker 1: to giants like Amazon and Starbucks. My sister lives there 43 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:57,240 Speaker 1: and I've had the pleasure to visit a few times, 44 00:02:57,520 --> 00:03:00,480 Speaker 1: and because we love biodiversity on zero two, its state 45 00:03:00,520 --> 00:03:04,320 Speaker 1: bird is the American goldfinch. But despite its glorious looking 46 00:03:04,360 --> 00:03:08,280 Speaker 1: bird and all of Insley's climate cred Washington's omissions haven't 47 00:03:08,320 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: fallen all that much, and in some areas during his 48 00:03:11,600 --> 00:03:14,800 Speaker 1: governorship they have actually gone up, something I wanted to 49 00:03:14,840 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: ask about when I met him at COP twenty seven 50 00:03:17,400 --> 00:03:24,040 Speaker 1: last year. Welcome to the show, Governor, Thank you, thanks 51 00:03:24,080 --> 00:03:28,079 Speaker 1: for having me. Let's start by talking about your impact 52 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: on US policy. You're the governor for the state of Washington, 53 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:36,440 Speaker 1: but you ran for a presidential campaign which had climate 54 00:03:36,680 --> 00:03:41,400 Speaker 1: as a major pillar. It didn't succeed, but there has 55 00:03:41,520 --> 00:03:44,160 Speaker 1: been a lot that came from your campaign that has 56 00:03:44,200 --> 00:03:48,040 Speaker 1: resulted in US climate policy. What of your highlights, meen. 57 00:03:48,400 --> 00:03:52,280 Speaker 2: Well, my campaign for the presidency did not succeed. I 58 00:03:52,320 --> 00:03:55,280 Speaker 2: am not in the White House, but quite a number 59 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 2: of my policies are and I am thrilled by this. 60 00:03:58,480 --> 00:04:01,800 Speaker 2: But I think actually maybe the bigger impact I've had 61 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,120 Speaker 2: on federal policy came after the campaign because a group 62 00:04:06,160 --> 00:04:08,840 Speaker 2: of my colleagues who worked on my campaign founded a 63 00:04:08,840 --> 00:04:11,880 Speaker 2: group called Evergreen Action that has become one of the 64 00:04:11,880 --> 00:04:16,440 Speaker 2: most successful advocates for really ambitious climate policies. I also 65 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,800 Speaker 2: think that the success we've had in Washington State with 66 00:04:19,800 --> 00:04:23,320 Speaker 2: our policies that have demonstrated that if you follow the 67 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:26,720 Speaker 2: ambition of building a new clean energy economy, you'll have 68 00:04:26,760 --> 00:04:29,960 Speaker 2: the most rapid economic growth in the country and you 69 00:04:30,040 --> 00:04:34,040 Speaker 2: will dramatically reduce your carbon emissions. But we have to 70 00:04:34,120 --> 00:04:37,160 Speaker 2: understand that this is only half of the efforts. We're 71 00:04:37,160 --> 00:04:40,279 Speaker 2: really halfway there with this federal bill, and that means 72 00:04:40,360 --> 00:04:43,479 Speaker 2: that states need to carry the ball across the goal line, 73 00:04:44,080 --> 00:04:46,920 Speaker 2: and we're doing that in our state and we're going 74 00:04:46,960 --> 00:04:47,600 Speaker 2: to talk about that. 75 00:04:47,720 --> 00:04:51,360 Speaker 1: Yes, we had Leah Stokes on the podcast earlier and 76 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:55,240 Speaker 1: she was part of Evergreen Action and then help write 77 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:59,040 Speaker 1: portions of the Inflation Reduction Act. You mentioned specific policies 78 00:04:59,400 --> 00:05:02,480 Speaker 1: that you worked on are now federal policies. Do you 79 00:05:02,520 --> 00:05:03,440 Speaker 1: want to give examples? 80 00:05:03,560 --> 00:05:07,080 Speaker 2: Well, the first off, the scale of the investment is huge, 81 00:05:07,080 --> 00:05:09,520 Speaker 2: and that's number one. I think the scale itself is 82 00:05:09,880 --> 00:05:12,240 Speaker 2: quite dramatics, like the Great Pyramid of Jobs you know, 83 00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,720 Speaker 2: it's big, and so that's number one. I think it's 84 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:18,840 Speaker 2: well targeted. I think the tax credits are well targeted. 85 00:05:19,279 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 2: I think they have really got the interest of the 86 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,320 Speaker 2: business community. In fact, even in Europe. We were in 87 00:05:24,360 --> 00:05:27,200 Speaker 2: Europe and a clean energy tour last month and I 88 00:05:27,240 --> 00:05:31,200 Speaker 2: was impressed with the number of business leaders who want 89 00:05:31,240 --> 00:05:33,839 Speaker 2: to really get to the United States to take advantage 90 00:05:33,839 --> 00:05:35,560 Speaker 2: of those tax credits. So I think they're going to 91 00:05:35,600 --> 00:05:39,080 Speaker 2: be effective. I think that it has been very comprehensive, 92 00:05:39,160 --> 00:05:43,800 Speaker 2: so which used multiple investment strategies in the discretionary part 93 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:46,760 Speaker 2: of the budget to actually help vast swaths of the 94 00:05:46,760 --> 00:05:50,880 Speaker 2: economy move forward with direct grants the kind of thing 95 00:05:50,920 --> 00:05:53,880 Speaker 2: that we've had. We have two companies, for instance, State 96 00:05:53,880 --> 00:05:57,080 Speaker 2: of Washington that have developed a new silicon and own 97 00:05:57,400 --> 00:06:01,080 Speaker 2: battery that can extend battery capacity by two twenty percent, 98 00:06:02,080 --> 00:06:07,000 Speaker 2: which could have huge implications for electrifying our transportation fleet. 99 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,360 Speaker 2: They've each received one hundred million dollars as part of 100 00:06:10,600 --> 00:06:12,760 Speaker 2: just one part of their portfolio that now will be 101 00:06:12,800 --> 00:06:17,120 Speaker 2: manufacturing new types of batteries and Moses Lake, Washington, which 102 00:06:17,160 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: is a semi rural part of our state of Washington. 103 00:06:19,760 --> 00:06:21,880 Speaker 2: So that's the kind of thing that's going to happen 104 00:06:21,960 --> 00:06:25,440 Speaker 2: in multiple industries, and I think that it's right on 105 00:06:25,480 --> 00:06:28,880 Speaker 2: the beam. Now. The things it did not accomplish that 106 00:06:28,920 --> 00:06:32,040 Speaker 2: our states are are a price on carbon with our 107 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:35,600 Speaker 2: capital invest program, a low carbon fuel standard, We've made 108 00:06:35,720 --> 00:06:39,240 Speaker 2: major advances in our building efficiencies. Those things are not 109 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 2: in the bill, but the states can do those things independently, 110 00:06:42,520 --> 00:06:46,039 Speaker 2: which we are, and so it's a tremendous start. But 111 00:06:46,080 --> 00:06:48,120 Speaker 2: I want to reiterate the states have to carry it 112 00:06:48,120 --> 00:06:49,080 Speaker 2: across the goal line. 113 00:06:49,240 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: Currently, if you add up all the policies in the 114 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:54,880 Speaker 1: Inflation Reduction Act, they take you to about forty percent 115 00:06:54,920 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: reduction relative to two thousand and five, which is lower 116 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:01,400 Speaker 1: than fifty percent in production, which is a target that 117 00:07:01,480 --> 00:07:04,000 Speaker 1: they have to hit by twenty thirty. Now you're saying 118 00:07:04,040 --> 00:07:05,480 Speaker 1: you can help them meet that gap. 119 00:07:05,560 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 2: We certainly can, should and are, And I'm not the 120 00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 2: only state. We started think called the US Climate Alliance, 121 00:07:11,880 --> 00:07:14,240 Speaker 2: which now has twenty three states that are all committed 122 00:07:14,280 --> 00:07:17,920 Speaker 2: to meeting these goals in one fashion or another, and 123 00:07:18,000 --> 00:07:21,040 Speaker 2: the scale of our efforts are significant. In fact, back 124 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:23,600 Speaker 2: of the envelope, think you know, as to the other day, 125 00:07:23,640 --> 00:07:26,160 Speaker 2: the scale of our investments on a per capita basis 126 00:07:26,200 --> 00:07:29,440 Speaker 2: really match the federal bill on what we're doing. So 127 00:07:29,600 --> 00:07:33,960 Speaker 2: it is a significant improvement both as the direct investments 128 00:07:34,000 --> 00:07:37,080 Speaker 2: that we're making and the regulatory action that we're taking 129 00:07:37,120 --> 00:07:39,360 Speaker 2: that goes beyond what the federal government is doing. 130 00:07:39,440 --> 00:07:42,200 Speaker 1: Actually, the California bill, which is fifty four billion dollars, 131 00:07:42,360 --> 00:07:45,280 Speaker 1: is more than the per capita spend on inflation election. 132 00:07:45,720 --> 00:07:48,240 Speaker 2: I'm trying to be humble. I actually think we probably 133 00:07:48,240 --> 00:07:51,120 Speaker 2: are more too, but I'm always conservative on because we're 134 00:07:51,160 --> 00:07:53,920 Speaker 2: such a humble state. We're not only the best, most beautiful, 135 00:07:54,000 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: most economically productive state, but we're the most humble state 136 00:07:57,240 --> 00:07:58,360 Speaker 2: in the United States. 137 00:07:58,680 --> 00:08:02,160 Speaker 1: Well, talking a few perhaps it's important that I bring 138 00:08:02,280 --> 00:08:04,560 Speaker 1: up the fact that even though you've been governed since 139 00:08:04,600 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: twenty thirteen, emissions haven't fallen all that much in Washington State. 140 00:08:09,040 --> 00:08:13,680 Speaker 1: If anything, transport emissions, which is almost half of Washington emissions, 141 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: have gone up, Industry and buildings have gone up. I know, 142 00:08:18,840 --> 00:08:22,120 Speaker 1: there's the Climate Change Commitment Act that you passed in 143 00:08:22,160 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: twenty twenty one, there's the cap and invest program that's 144 00:08:26,040 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: going to be coming into play from January first, But 145 00:08:29,120 --> 00:08:31,000 Speaker 1: emissions have not declined. 146 00:08:31,200 --> 00:08:33,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, so they have declined as a unit of GDP 147 00:08:34,240 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 2: something like I think it's almost by forty percent. So 148 00:08:36,920 --> 00:08:42,120 Speaker 2: as a unit of GDP, we have declined our emissions dramatically. 149 00:08:42,160 --> 00:08:44,360 Speaker 2: But we've had a million people moving to the state 150 00:08:44,360 --> 00:08:48,120 Speaker 2: of Washington, and so we're getting all the brilliant innovators 151 00:08:48,160 --> 00:08:52,000 Speaker 2: coming into our biotech and aerospace and everything else. So 152 00:08:52,040 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 2: we've got additional people. That's fundamentally one of our challenges, 153 00:08:55,800 --> 00:08:59,240 Speaker 2: and the things that we have embraced are new. I 154 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,960 Speaker 2: had a republic and legislature for the first several years 155 00:09:02,000 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 2: of my governorship, which would not surprise you to know, 156 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,840 Speaker 2: blocked almost all of our advances. So we've really been 157 00:09:09,840 --> 00:09:12,960 Speaker 2: able to make policy changes only in the last three 158 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:16,360 Speaker 2: or four years during my term. Those are now kicking in. 159 00:09:16,760 --> 00:09:19,680 Speaker 2: Given example, in February, we will have our first auction 160 00:09:20,040 --> 00:09:23,920 Speaker 2: of our Capital invest Bill. That'll kick in our building 161 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:29,080 Speaker 2: commitments to require heat pumps so you no longer have 162 00:09:29,160 --> 00:09:31,680 Speaker 2: to have fossil fuel in your home or business. We 163 00:09:31,720 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 2: will be the first state to embrace that, and that 164 00:09:34,600 --> 00:09:37,280 Speaker 2: kicks in next year in twenty twenty three. But that 165 00:09:37,320 --> 00:09:39,440 Speaker 2: won't have an impact on our emissions for a couple 166 00:09:39,480 --> 00:09:43,319 Speaker 2: of years, right, So we're early in the game. Action 167 00:09:43,480 --> 00:09:47,320 Speaker 2: has taken place, and it has having a dramatic impact 168 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:50,960 Speaker 2: on reducing our per capita emissions now gross level of 169 00:09:50,960 --> 00:09:54,199 Speaker 2: our emissions. When will they really start to go down soon? 170 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:58,240 Speaker 2: I hope now that these policies are being implemented now. 171 00:09:58,400 --> 00:10:02,720 Speaker 1: One of the things that clean energy, especially distributed nature 172 00:10:02,840 --> 00:10:06,920 Speaker 1: of clean energy allows far is to change the political 173 00:10:06,920 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: economy because many of the places which will benefit from 174 00:10:11,559 --> 00:10:15,000 Speaker 1: the clean energy revolution are going to be rural areas. 175 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:18,800 Speaker 1: And tends to be that rural areas are republican across 176 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:22,240 Speaker 1: the US, but certainly true in Washington. Have you seen 177 00:10:22,280 --> 00:10:26,520 Speaker 1: that happen already? Is the political economy changing to Republican 178 00:10:26,720 --> 00:10:30,640 Speaker 1: voting people see this as a part of the solution 179 00:10:30,840 --> 00:10:34,560 Speaker 1: that is benefiting them? And are they coming on the 180 00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:38,000 Speaker 1: side of acting on climate because the divide in the 181 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,280 Speaker 1: US matters to the world. 182 00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:42,440 Speaker 2: To some degree, but not nearly as rapidly as I 183 00:10:42,440 --> 00:10:45,440 Speaker 2: would like. I just gave a congratulatory call to a 184 00:10:45,600 --> 00:10:48,880 Speaker 2: state senator who took a seat that used to be 185 00:10:48,920 --> 00:10:51,880 Speaker 2: held by one of the number one climate deniers in 186 00:10:51,920 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 2: my state legislature. Another center just west of me where 187 00:10:55,600 --> 00:10:58,400 Speaker 2: I live on Bamberge Island, same situation took a seat 188 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:02,559 Speaker 2: away from climate denier. So we have defeated quite a 189 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:04,920 Speaker 2: number of climate deniers in my state. And I think 190 00:11:04,960 --> 00:11:08,720 Speaker 2: that is a function of two things. One, people now 191 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,920 Speaker 2: being confronted on a daily basis with the catastrophes. We 192 00:11:13,960 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 2: are breathing smoke again this summer from the forest fires, 193 00:11:17,760 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 2: so that are literally kids can go out to play 194 00:11:20,360 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 2: a few days during the year. We have the unhealthiest 195 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:25,040 Speaker 2: here and I love my state, but the truth is 196 00:11:25,080 --> 00:11:28,679 Speaker 2: we had the most unhealthy air a couple days in 197 00:11:28,760 --> 00:11:33,040 Speaker 2: an entire world that includes Mumbai, and we're just into 198 00:11:33,080 --> 00:11:36,240 Speaker 2: it because our forests are so fragile because of aridity 199 00:11:36,280 --> 00:11:38,720 Speaker 2: and temperature and some of the management we're doing management 200 00:11:38,840 --> 00:11:41,079 Speaker 2: or forest to try to reduce that, but these are 201 00:11:41,120 --> 00:11:43,880 Speaker 2: just huge risks. So people now are experiencing this first 202 00:11:43,960 --> 00:11:47,920 Speaker 2: cand It's no longer an abstraction or a hypothetical argument, 203 00:11:48,000 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 2: so that has changed people's perception. They are demanding action. 204 00:11:51,880 --> 00:11:55,400 Speaker 1: The first time nature of wildfire smoke is certainly a problem. 205 00:11:55,600 --> 00:11:58,800 Speaker 1: My sister survived COVID and did not get it because 206 00:11:58,840 --> 00:12:03,120 Speaker 1: of vaccines and taking care. But the smoke from the 207 00:12:03,120 --> 00:12:06,200 Speaker 1: fires this time around got her and she was sick 208 00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:06,720 Speaker 1: for a week. 209 00:12:06,960 --> 00:12:07,640 Speaker 2: Sorry to that. 210 00:12:07,800 --> 00:12:11,640 Speaker 1: And so this is increasing the wildfire risk, especially the 211 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: numbers in the size of those fires is growing. There 212 00:12:15,640 --> 00:12:20,200 Speaker 1: are emissions generated from having wildfires grown the size that 213 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:24,600 Speaker 1: they grow, and we're not talking small numbers here. The 214 00:12:24,920 --> 00:12:29,560 Speaker 1: EPA in Washington, the Environmental Protection Agency, points out that 215 00:12:30,240 --> 00:12:34,880 Speaker 1: there have been years when emissions have been fifteen seventeen 216 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:38,680 Speaker 1: million tons, which is almost fifteen to seventeen percent of 217 00:12:39,480 --> 00:12:44,440 Speaker 1: Washington State's fossil fuel emissions. What can be done about 218 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,160 Speaker 1: tackling Well, well. 219 00:12:46,040 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: There are some things we can do in the short term, 220 00:12:48,559 --> 00:12:51,840 Speaker 2: when is active management of our forest to try to 221 00:12:51,840 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 2: remove some of the fuel load in these very dense 222 00:12:54,720 --> 00:12:58,920 Speaker 2: forests that have become diseased in part because of their density. 223 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:03,199 Speaker 2: That has happened because we've done some fire suppression. These 224 00:13:03,240 --> 00:13:05,720 Speaker 2: fires used to go through and thin the forests and 225 00:13:06,000 --> 00:13:10,439 Speaker 2: low intensity fires. Now we have suppressed the fires for 226 00:13:10,480 --> 00:13:13,880 Speaker 2: a century and that has resulted in higher density of 227 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:18,000 Speaker 2: fiber in our forests, which puts additional stresses on them 228 00:13:18,320 --> 00:13:20,280 Speaker 2: of disease. And then on top of that we have 229 00:13:20,360 --> 00:13:24,319 Speaker 2: climate change, which is the ultimate stressor so we can 230 00:13:24,400 --> 00:13:26,719 Speaker 2: do and we are doing active management. We've increased our 231 00:13:26,720 --> 00:13:28,800 Speaker 2: investment to do that, but it's very expensive. We have 232 00:13:28,840 --> 00:13:31,880 Speaker 2: to hire people to go out and remove the slag 233 00:13:31,960 --> 00:13:35,160 Speaker 2: and some of the underbrushing, and there are risk involved 234 00:13:35,200 --> 00:13:37,600 Speaker 2: with prescribes burns as we know, so it is both 235 00:13:37,679 --> 00:13:41,079 Speaker 2: inexpensive and some risk associated. But we are doing that. 236 00:13:41,600 --> 00:13:44,640 Speaker 2: We've increased our commitment in the last five or six 237 00:13:44,720 --> 00:13:48,400 Speaker 2: years fairly dramatically. But the scale of this is so enormous, 238 00:13:48,679 --> 00:13:51,920 Speaker 2: with the hundreds of thousands of acres, that you can't 239 00:13:51,920 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: solve this problem just with this management. We have to 240 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:57,439 Speaker 2: go to the heart of the problem, which is carbon emissions, 241 00:13:57,720 --> 00:13:59,720 Speaker 2: and the whole world has to work on this, and 242 00:13:59,720 --> 00:14:02,160 Speaker 2: the whole world has to help save my forest. And 243 00:14:02,200 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: that's the nature of this challenge humanity faces is I 244 00:14:05,840 --> 00:14:08,240 Speaker 2: can't solve it as one governor or one state or 245 00:14:08,240 --> 00:14:10,520 Speaker 2: even one nation. This has to be a global effort. 246 00:14:10,559 --> 00:14:13,319 Speaker 1: Now, so far, you have attracted people coming to your 247 00:14:13,360 --> 00:14:16,320 Speaker 1: state because their jobs being created for them. You said 248 00:14:16,320 --> 00:14:20,400 Speaker 1: a million people have come. But as climate impacts get worse, 249 00:14:20,800 --> 00:14:23,680 Speaker 1: you're a northern state, you're going to be cooler place 250 00:14:23,760 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: to be living. Do you expect climate migration to happen. 251 00:14:27,400 --> 00:14:31,320 Speaker 1: Do you expect refugees affected by climate impacts to arrive 252 00:14:31,400 --> 00:14:32,320 Speaker 1: in Washington State? 253 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 2: To some degree, that's already happening. Actually, I think there'll 254 00:14:37,120 --> 00:14:42,560 Speaker 2: be much more potentially difficult issues we have to deal 255 00:14:42,640 --> 00:14:46,600 Speaker 2: with from Central America, because we have thousands, tens of 256 00:14:46,640 --> 00:14:50,400 Speaker 2: thousands of climate refugees from Central America right now seeking 257 00:14:50,440 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 2: refuge in the United States, and that's only going to 258 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:56,600 Speaker 2: increase fairly dramatically. You look at the Horn of Africa 259 00:14:57,040 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 2: and the migrant demands right now from the Horn of 260 00:15:00,080 --> 00:15:03,960 Speaker 2: Africa is just beginning. And I do believe the northern 261 00:15:03,960 --> 00:15:07,080 Speaker 2: developing worlds, how we are going to act in a 262 00:15:07,160 --> 00:15:11,160 Speaker 2: humanitarian way that's consistent with stability in our own communities, 263 00:15:11,280 --> 00:15:12,960 Speaker 2: it's going to be one of the great challenges next 264 00:15:12,960 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 2: several decades. 265 00:15:14,080 --> 00:15:17,440 Speaker 1: And what about internal migration from places like California. 266 00:15:17,760 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 2: I mean, that's already happening. I have people, you know, 267 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,359 Speaker 2: who are my neighbors who move to California who got 268 00:15:22,480 --> 00:15:25,400 Speaker 2: tired of the smoke already, and they've been hit a 269 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,160 Speaker 2: little harder, and they've obviously got water issues and temperature 270 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 2: issues a little more, you know, But as long as 271 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 2: they'll abide by the rules and be good pickleball competitors, 272 00:15:36,360 --> 00:15:37,360 Speaker 2: They're welcome to come. 273 00:15:38,960 --> 00:15:40,680 Speaker 1: Governor. Thank you for coming on the show. 274 00:15:40,720 --> 00:15:41,160 Speaker 2: Thank you. 275 00:15:48,440 --> 00:15:50,720 Speaker 1: If you want to hear more about how James Lee's 276 00:15:50,720 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 1: campaign led to the Inflation Reduction Act. Go back and 277 00:15:53,640 --> 00:15:56,320 Speaker 1: listen to our episode with Lea Stokes from last year. 278 00:15:56,760 --> 00:15:59,280 Speaker 1: She was part of drafting the bill and also worked 279 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,720 Speaker 1: in Insley's camp. We put a link in the show 280 00:16:01,760 --> 00:16:05,280 Speaker 1: notes after the break. Not all states have the luxury 281 00:16:05,320 --> 00:16:08,240 Speaker 1: of strong support for climate action. The governors of New 282 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:20,920 Speaker 1: Mexico and Indiana explain how they walk the line. J 283 00:16:21,120 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: Insley leads a state whose politics is dominated by the 284 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:27,760 Speaker 1: Democrats and whose economy is not reliant on fossil fuels. 285 00:16:28,160 --> 00:16:30,920 Speaker 1: The same cannot be said of my next guest. She's 286 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: also a Democratic governor, but operates in a very different context. 287 00:16:34,840 --> 00:16:38,120 Speaker 3: I'm mister Luhan Grisham, New Mexico's forty ninth in employment 288 00:16:38,160 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 3: and fiftieth for schools. We got to bus through some 289 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:41,960 Speaker 3: walls to make changes. 290 00:16:44,320 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: Michelle Luhan Grisham is the governor of New Mexico, a 291 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,080 Speaker 1: state where oil and gas production is the largest industry. 292 00:16:51,640 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: Taxes and fees from fossil fuel production accounted for forty 293 00:16:54,800 --> 00:16:58,480 Speaker 1: two percent of the state spending last year. She's trying 294 00:16:58,480 --> 00:17:01,240 Speaker 1: to clean things up with the oil and gas industry. 295 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: Her administration has set strict rules to reduce methane emissions. 296 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:08,239 Speaker 1: For example, New Mexico neighbors the state of Texas and 297 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:11,679 Speaker 1: sits on the US Mexico border. It leans Democrat, but 298 00:17:11,880 --> 00:17:14,520 Speaker 1: was a swing state as recently as two thousand and eight. 299 00:17:15,040 --> 00:17:17,720 Speaker 1: It's state bird is the greater road runner, you know, 300 00:17:17,800 --> 00:17:23,520 Speaker 1: the one may governor. Welcome to the show. 301 00:17:23,680 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 3: Thank you for having me. 302 00:17:25,040 --> 00:17:27,840 Speaker 1: It is interesting to have the second largest oil and 303 00:17:27,880 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: gas producing state in the United States with a governor 304 00:17:31,240 --> 00:17:34,760 Speaker 1: that's very aligned with climate agenda, is aligned with the 305 00:17:34,800 --> 00:17:39,000 Speaker 1: Democratic agenda in terms of messaging and making the other 306 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:41,160 Speaker 1: side work with you. What are the ways in which 307 00:17:41,160 --> 00:17:42,399 Speaker 1: you succeeded. 308 00:17:42,640 --> 00:17:47,680 Speaker 3: Well, interestingly enough, the policymakers who were elected that are 309 00:17:47,920 --> 00:17:51,120 Speaker 3: from a different party. So Republicans in my state did 310 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 3: not in large part support our Energy Transition Act and 311 00:17:54,680 --> 00:17:58,600 Speaker 3: didn't in large part or at all support our methane 312 00:17:58,760 --> 00:18:02,919 Speaker 3: and ozone rule. And it doesn't make any sense because 313 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,480 Speaker 3: the industries from which they have representation largely in their 314 00:18:08,560 --> 00:18:12,000 Speaker 3: areas that they've been elected from. All want this, so 315 00:18:12,040 --> 00:18:15,520 Speaker 3: it doesn't align itself at all, which means it's part 316 00:18:15,520 --> 00:18:19,600 Speaker 3: of a national messaging against climate change and against doing 317 00:18:19,640 --> 00:18:23,520 Speaker 3: anything that would be perceived as interfering with oil and gas. 318 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:27,160 Speaker 3: So on the one side, we cannot allow the fossil 319 00:18:27,200 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 3: fuel industry to continue to pollute in the ways in 320 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,600 Speaker 3: which they are, because we will destroy the planet. We're 321 00:18:34,600 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 3: well on our way to doing that. It was, in fact, 322 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:40,880 Speaker 3: the oil and gas industry that really pushed even some 323 00:18:40,960 --> 00:18:44,600 Speaker 3: more conservative Democrats in our legislature to be all on 324 00:18:44,720 --> 00:18:47,840 Speaker 3: board for our regulatory structure that now the federal government 325 00:18:48,160 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 3: has undertaken so that every state will be doing aggressive 326 00:18:52,800 --> 00:18:56,160 Speaker 3: methane emission standards and ozone standards as well. 327 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:58,919 Speaker 1: President Joe Biden has been calling for more oil and 328 00:18:58,960 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 1: gas production to be able to bring prices down. A 329 00:19:01,960 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 1: lot of the oil and gas production in New Mexico 330 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,399 Speaker 1: is on federal land, but federal land permitting has been slow. 331 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:11,959 Speaker 1: What are you doing to deal with that bottleneck and 332 00:19:12,160 --> 00:19:13,800 Speaker 1: help President Biden's agenda. 333 00:19:13,920 --> 00:19:16,719 Speaker 3: We've actually made the argument in our state with the 334 00:19:16,840 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 3: industry that we have thousands of permits that have not 335 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:24,520 Speaker 3: been effectuated. And while that process has been slowed, and 336 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:28,360 Speaker 3: initially there was a moratorium, that's been in large part lifted. 337 00:19:28,840 --> 00:19:31,800 Speaker 3: And we think the federal government took New Mexico's advices, 338 00:19:31,840 --> 00:19:35,359 Speaker 3: which is you're better telling them to have the cleanest 339 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:38,600 Speaker 3: oil and gas made by setting and they did the 340 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:41,920 Speaker 3: methane standards is one example, but doing a whole lot 341 00:19:42,000 --> 00:19:46,240 Speaker 3: more in cleaning up and incentivizing making them be accountable, 342 00:19:46,560 --> 00:19:50,240 Speaker 3: but also for example, capping abandon well so that you 343 00:19:50,280 --> 00:19:53,359 Speaker 3: get in all of the above approach. I think that 344 00:19:53,600 --> 00:19:56,600 Speaker 3: naysayers have said it's been too slow to deal with 345 00:19:56,680 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 3: economic security around the world and that we should not 346 00:20:00,160 --> 00:20:04,040 Speaker 3: be addressing that with any foreign countries when the United 347 00:20:04,080 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 3: States can produce more oil and gas. But under this administration, 348 00:20:09,240 --> 00:20:12,600 Speaker 3: for the first time, the US is now producing as 349 00:20:12,680 --> 00:20:15,760 Speaker 3: a country the largest amount of oil and gas. And 350 00:20:15,840 --> 00:20:18,719 Speaker 3: there's been no president whether you agree that fossil fuels 351 00:20:18,720 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 3: ought that ought to be occurring or not, He's the 352 00:20:22,000 --> 00:20:27,119 Speaker 3: first President Biden to create that energy security for the 353 00:20:27,240 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 3: United States. So I feel incredibly optimistic that these all 354 00:20:33,200 --> 00:20:39,320 Speaker 3: the above approaches with serious accountability measures and with a 355 00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:46,040 Speaker 3: parallel to faster innovation, faster investment, and faster generation of 356 00:20:46,119 --> 00:20:51,160 Speaker 3: renewable energy tackles the climate crisis. It brings new economic sectors, 357 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:54,720 Speaker 3: job skills, and it means that you don't have to 358 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:58,439 Speaker 3: be reliant on fossil fuels, which is the only path 359 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:03,280 Speaker 3: forward for any of us. And he's accomplished all three. 360 00:21:03,200 --> 00:21:06,280 Speaker 1: But it does not square with what is a clear 361 00:21:06,800 --> 00:21:10,639 Speaker 1: message from the International Energy Agency but also from the 362 00:21:10,680 --> 00:21:14,359 Speaker 1: Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change that no new fossil fuel 363 00:21:14,400 --> 00:21:17,600 Speaker 1: project should be brought online. That is not what is happening. 364 00:21:18,200 --> 00:21:19,800 Speaker 1: So how do you square. 365 00:21:20,080 --> 00:21:22,480 Speaker 3: Well, you have to have energy in order to actually 366 00:21:22,520 --> 00:21:27,960 Speaker 3: to even produce cleaner energy, So it squares, and that 367 00:21:28,200 --> 00:21:30,320 Speaker 3: you have to deal with both. In the notion that 368 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:34,160 Speaker 3: we can pardon this analogy, but you can flip a switch, 369 00:21:34,920 --> 00:21:38,840 Speaker 3: we have proven you can't. We don't have the grid 370 00:21:38,920 --> 00:21:41,600 Speaker 3: monetization to do that. There's no country that's got the 371 00:21:41,640 --> 00:21:44,720 Speaker 3: regulatory structure, including ours, to do that. We have no 372 00:21:44,800 --> 00:21:47,199 Speaker 3: way to export or store it in the ways that 373 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,160 Speaker 3: we need to. Now we are closing in on both 374 00:21:50,160 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 3: innovations and strategies that get you there, But in the meantime, 375 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,399 Speaker 3: we have to keep people cool and warm, and we 376 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,920 Speaker 3: have to make sure that we have power. I mean, 377 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:06,879 Speaker 3: I just think about just the power generation in a 378 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:12,840 Speaker 3: number of our clean sectors, including our We've got folks 379 00:22:12,880 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 3: like Facebook who are using data cooling strategies that are 380 00:22:17,760 --> 00:22:22,119 Speaker 3: energy efficient but nonetheless require energy. And while we have 381 00:22:22,200 --> 00:22:27,000 Speaker 3: their solar field online. Finally, if we weren't using other strategies, 382 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:29,360 Speaker 3: you'd have to say no to the entire industry during 383 00:22:29,400 --> 00:22:30,040 Speaker 3: your transition. 384 00:22:30,320 --> 00:22:33,199 Speaker 1: And as the second largestil and gas producing state in 385 00:22:33,440 --> 00:22:36,320 Speaker 1: the US, one of the quickest ways in which you 386 00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:40,399 Speaker 1: can address emissions is cutting down methane emissions. You have 387 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:43,840 Speaker 1: methane rules in place, but what are you doing about flaring? 388 00:22:43,920 --> 00:22:45,840 Speaker 1: What are you doing about so they're. 389 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,240 Speaker 3: Not allowed to do You can't do flaring right unless 390 00:22:48,240 --> 00:22:52,679 Speaker 3: it's for emergency. So that's already in our legislation. What 391 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:55,800 Speaker 3: we are going to do that enhances compliance because that's 392 00:22:55,800 --> 00:22:57,359 Speaker 3: really the question, Now what are you doing? 393 00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:59,679 Speaker 1: What is the compliance of those holding them? 394 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:02,800 Speaker 3: So the state is But in addition to that, while 395 00:23:02,840 --> 00:23:05,920 Speaker 3: they do a lot of self reporting clear to US 396 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 3: now and I think clear to the federal government. So 397 00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 3: another economic sector boom, you're going to need independent auditors. 398 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:15,000 Speaker 3: And while most of us, including New Mexico, currently are 399 00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,000 Speaker 3: doing independent audits that are largely focused on reports that 400 00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:24,000 Speaker 3: don't square with us or the lack of reporting. I 401 00:23:24,000 --> 00:23:28,480 Speaker 3: think you want that plus randomized third party independent audits, 402 00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 3: and then they need to be publicized so that people 403 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:32,399 Speaker 3: know about them. So we'll have a dashboard. 404 00:23:32,640 --> 00:23:35,000 Speaker 1: You tell me legislate for that or does that come back? 405 00:23:35,080 --> 00:23:37,280 Speaker 3: We don't have to legislate for that. No, we already 406 00:23:37,320 --> 00:23:39,280 Speaker 3: require that there's some sort of an audit, so we 407 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:40,400 Speaker 3: can already just do that. 408 00:23:40,600 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 1: Now I would set an example for your neighboring state, 409 00:23:43,160 --> 00:23:46,440 Speaker 1: Texas that seriously under reports it's methane emissions. 410 00:23:46,480 --> 00:23:49,920 Speaker 3: I would argue that everyone is under reporting methane emissions. 411 00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:52,119 Speaker 3: And now I'm going to be a little bit defensive 412 00:23:52,160 --> 00:23:55,520 Speaker 3: of that environment in and of itself, which is, if 413 00:23:55,520 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 3: you weren't asked to evaluate it, and it's invisible, and 414 00:23:59,720 --> 00:24:03,040 Speaker 3: you were sending out people with a basic heat and 415 00:24:03,119 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 3: infrared detector, and you're trying to cover thousands and thousands 416 00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:10,600 Speaker 3: of square miles just in the western part of the country, 417 00:24:11,040 --> 00:24:15,159 Speaker 3: you would never be able to evaluate it all. You 418 00:24:15,160 --> 00:24:18,639 Speaker 3: would never get very far. So in this environment, flying 419 00:24:19,240 --> 00:24:22,800 Speaker 3: using satellite imagery. Doing gis mapping, doing all the kinds 420 00:24:22,840 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 3: of things and not being focused just on individual manpower, 421 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:30,640 Speaker 3: and using randomized audits to square that information with what's 422 00:24:30,680 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 3: being reported, and publicizing that where people are paying attention, 423 00:24:34,920 --> 00:24:37,560 Speaker 3: like on a dashboard or allowing people to sign up 424 00:24:37,600 --> 00:24:40,600 Speaker 3: with a phone app so that they can measure and monitor, 425 00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:43,359 Speaker 3: I think will achieve incredible outcomes. 426 00:24:43,560 --> 00:24:46,400 Speaker 1: Last question, We're going into a COP which is going 427 00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:48,919 Speaker 1: to be run by an oil and gas giant, the 428 00:24:49,080 --> 00:24:53,280 Speaker 1: United Arab Emirates. Your economy is not quite as dependent 429 00:24:53,359 --> 00:24:56,080 Speaker 1: on oil and gas as the United Arab Emirates is. 430 00:24:56,640 --> 00:24:59,679 Speaker 1: But what are the examples that you have set that 431 00:24:59,760 --> 00:25:02,760 Speaker 1: others their major or the gas producing states. 432 00:25:02,880 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 3: Right, Well, I've just mentioned several of them. I think 433 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:09,719 Speaker 3: that by the time we are at the next COP, 434 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:13,120 Speaker 3: we'll be able to talk about not only capping abandoned 435 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,479 Speaker 3: wells and how quickly we can get that done, and 436 00:25:15,480 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 3: how we can identify with those then reduction and emissions 437 00:25:19,520 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 3: look like as a result of capping successfully. We can 438 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,679 Speaker 3: talk about our dashboards and sort of ask folks at 439 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:29,600 Speaker 3: the next COP to commit to doing the very same 440 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:33,760 Speaker 3: in every oil and gas producing nation in the world. 441 00:25:34,280 --> 00:25:37,879 Speaker 3: And you have tangible information that you can show and 442 00:25:37,920 --> 00:25:42,720 Speaker 3: strategies that you can identify in building coalitions and support 443 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 3: for doing the right work. If you don't have those tangibles, 444 00:25:46,119 --> 00:25:49,120 Speaker 3: it's hard to tell someone that your accolades are enough 445 00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:51,199 Speaker 3: to get them to change their minds you about what 446 00:25:51,240 --> 00:25:51,760 Speaker 3: they're doing. 447 00:25:51,960 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: You have not mentioned their favorite solution, carbon capture. 448 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:58,919 Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, we are again all of the above, 449 00:25:59,160 --> 00:26:02,280 Speaker 3: and I think that you'll see some states really robustly 450 00:26:02,359 --> 00:26:05,560 Speaker 3: do carbon capture and try to demonstrate that that is 451 00:26:05,600 --> 00:26:09,360 Speaker 3: an effective tool or not. I'm more interested in all 452 00:26:09,440 --> 00:26:13,000 Speaker 3: those tools in a toolbox and then identify for which states, 453 00:26:13,080 --> 00:26:17,240 Speaker 3: which industries, which areas are the most effective. We're still 454 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 3: working really hard to make sure that our oil and 455 00:26:19,320 --> 00:26:25,120 Speaker 3: gas companies meet their mission standards and divest and reinvest 456 00:26:25,160 --> 00:26:29,040 Speaker 3: in renewable energy, and that structure and standard in our 457 00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,440 Speaker 3: state still is paramount. And it reminds me a little 458 00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:35,399 Speaker 3: bit of sort of clean coal that lots of folks 459 00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:39,359 Speaker 3: identified that. In my view, this and I think the 460 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,800 Speaker 3: science is pretty clear doesn't really work, but I think 461 00:26:42,840 --> 00:26:45,560 Speaker 3: it still it depends. It's going to depend. 462 00:26:45,840 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 1: Thank you for coming on the show. Thank you. We've 463 00:26:50,280 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: heard from two Democratic governors, both in very different situations, 464 00:26:54,000 --> 00:26:56,679 Speaker 1: but both with the clear support of their party to 465 00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: take action on climate change. Now for someone different. 466 00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,120 Speaker 4: We are one Indiana, and we are one Indiana for all, 467 00:27:04,440 --> 00:27:06,840 Speaker 4: and it just makes you proud to be a Hoosier. 468 00:27:08,840 --> 00:27:12,320 Speaker 1: Governor. Eric Holcombe of Indiana is a Republican walking a 469 00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:15,520 Speaker 1: tightrope when it comes to the politics of climate change. 470 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,960 Speaker 1: He's careful not to speak openly in favor of climate action, 471 00:27:19,400 --> 00:27:22,280 Speaker 1: but was a rare Republican to attend COP twenty seven 472 00:27:22,400 --> 00:27:25,400 Speaker 1: in Egypt last year, drawing the ire of his own 473 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:30,320 Speaker 1: party by doing so. Indiana is a Midwestern farming state 474 00:27:30,520 --> 00:27:33,720 Speaker 1: that is also a major coal producer and the US's 475 00:27:34,040 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 1: largest producer of steel. Its state bird is the Northern Cardinal, 476 00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:42,920 Speaker 1: which is as red as the state's politics. Very Indiana's 477 00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:45,920 Speaker 1: story is indicative of how things are going in the US. 478 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:49,880 Speaker 1: Even though the Republican Party opposes the Inflation Reduction Act 479 00:27:49,920 --> 00:27:53,879 Speaker 1: in principle, states led by Republicans are benefiting from the 480 00:27:53,960 --> 00:27:59,200 Speaker 1: money it provides, and under Wolcombe, Indiana is transforming rapidly. 481 00:28:00,080 --> 00:28:02,920 Speaker 1: Argist soular farm in the US is currently being built there. 482 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:06,400 Speaker 1: Roughly the same size as Manhattan and for a price 483 00:28:06,440 --> 00:28:10,440 Speaker 1: tag of one point five billion dollars. So what's driving 484 00:28:10,520 --> 00:28:16,640 Speaker 1: the change? Governor, Welcome to the show. 485 00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:17,600 Speaker 5: Great to be with you. 486 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:21,040 Speaker 1: Six years ago you applauded Trump's decision for the US 487 00:28:21,080 --> 00:28:23,760 Speaker 1: to pull out of the Paris Agreement, but you've since 488 00:28:24,040 --> 00:28:27,080 Speaker 1: done a one eighty. Attending a COP meeting in Egypt 489 00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:28,639 Speaker 1: last year. What changed? 490 00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 5: I wouldn't call it a one eighty. 491 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:36,800 Speaker 4: I would say I'm taking a very realistic, reasonable, rational approach, 492 00:28:37,240 --> 00:28:43,080 Speaker 4: market driven, applauding and celebrating innovation that is getting us 493 00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:47,800 Speaker 4: to a better place, and we'll continue to do that. 494 00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:53,440 Speaker 4: And attending COP twenty seven, I was refreshed, quite frankly 495 00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:58,320 Speaker 4: by all the innovation that is occurring, whether it be 496 00:28:58,360 --> 00:28:59,520 Speaker 4: in the. 497 00:28:59,480 --> 00:29:02,000 Speaker 5: Construction space, utility space. 498 00:29:02,680 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 4: Manufacturing space, agricultural space, finance space, all these different pieces 499 00:29:08,880 --> 00:29:16,920 Speaker 4: to the puzzle that are required if we're to have affordable, reliable, 500 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:21,479 Speaker 4: sustainable and clean energy sources. And the last thing I 501 00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:25,280 Speaker 4: want to see happen in the state of Indiana and 502 00:29:25,440 --> 00:29:29,360 Speaker 4: to the cause, quite frankly, is to be tethered to 503 00:29:30,120 --> 00:29:35,440 Speaker 4: some benchmark that is not getting us further along the 504 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 4: innovation that will be required, and you don't need to 505 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:42,640 Speaker 4: look very far around the world to see whether it's 506 00:29:42,720 --> 00:29:46,440 Speaker 4: rolling blackouts or countries that have reverted back because of 507 00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:50,800 Speaker 4: quite frankly nothing that they had to do with, could 508 00:29:50,840 --> 00:29:55,520 Speaker 4: be Russia invading another sovereign country and the chaos that 509 00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 4: that's brought about in Europe specifically. 510 00:29:58,080 --> 00:30:00,280 Speaker 1: There is no walking away from the fact though, that 511 00:30:00,480 --> 00:30:03,600 Speaker 1: the COP meeting is a climate conference, and climate change 512 00:30:03,680 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: tends to be the topic of discussion. Of course, what 513 00:30:06,760 --> 00:30:10,120 Speaker 1: we do to address it is the reason COP meetings happen. 514 00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,080 Speaker 1: And so when you go and attend as a Republican leader, 515 00:30:14,200 --> 00:30:16,840 Speaker 1: you are criticized by your own party, by people in 516 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:19,920 Speaker 1: the Republican base. How do you win over a base 517 00:30:19,960 --> 00:30:22,600 Speaker 1: that is skeptical of climate change and then gather this 518 00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,720 Speaker 1: kind of support you need for the action you'd like 519 00:30:25,760 --> 00:30:26,200 Speaker 1: to see? 520 00:30:26,280 --> 00:30:29,960 Speaker 4: Well, I you know, first of all, usually the folks 521 00:30:29,960 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 4: that are critical or unaware of my itinerary, or they 522 00:30:34,120 --> 00:30:37,200 Speaker 4: just don't care what it is. Maybe they're just trying 523 00:30:37,240 --> 00:30:40,560 Speaker 4: to score cheap political points. But be that as it may. 524 00:30:40,680 --> 00:30:44,160 Speaker 4: I am in this business and I've got thick skin. 525 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,560 Speaker 4: And then I would remind folks who are supportive or 526 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 4: critical that if they choose to deny the marketplace or 527 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 4: ignore it, they won't be the ones. 528 00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 5: That had the last say. 529 00:30:56,640 --> 00:31:01,000 Speaker 4: So the marketplace typically does. And for us to be 530 00:31:01,200 --> 00:31:12,160 Speaker 4: included in the conversations regarding all the different sources of supply, hydrogen, nuclear, solar, win, 531 00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:15,680 Speaker 4: you name it, that's a good thing for a state 532 00:31:15,800 --> 00:31:19,440 Speaker 4: like Indiana that is known around the world as a 533 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 4: manufacturing intensive state. We're in America. We're the number one 534 00:31:23,360 --> 00:31:27,960 Speaker 4: per capita manufacturing state in the country. Five autooems in 535 00:31:28,000 --> 00:31:31,880 Speaker 4: the state of Indiana, Stalantis, General Motors, Toyota, subar Ruhnda. 536 00:31:32,880 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 5: I'm proud of that fact. 537 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:38,800 Speaker 4: And so we need to be prepared for what's next always, 538 00:31:39,280 --> 00:31:41,320 Speaker 4: and for a state like Indiana, I don't want to 539 00:31:41,360 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 4: be caught watching the paint dry, and I'm not going 540 00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,760 Speaker 4: to be and so that requires me to not just 541 00:31:46,880 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 4: show up, but to contribute to the We're not just willing, 542 00:31:53,280 --> 00:31:58,280 Speaker 4: but we're ready to embrace change. And so yeah, I'm 543 00:31:58,280 --> 00:32:05,120 Speaker 4: going to show up when especially invited to an arena 544 00:32:05,280 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 4: that has so many thought leaders and action leaders, and 545 00:32:10,320 --> 00:32:11,560 Speaker 4: so I was happy to be included. 546 00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:14,720 Speaker 1: The state of Indiana has been known for its coal mining, 547 00:32:14,880 --> 00:32:16,960 Speaker 1: which began all the way back in the eighteen hundreds 548 00:32:17,080 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: and is still one of the top coal producing states 549 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:23,600 Speaker 1: in the US. You also have cobon intensive industries like 550 00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,640 Speaker 1: the steel industry, which does consume a lot of coal. 551 00:32:27,040 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 1: Your power currently comes mostly from coal and gas, more 552 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:35,800 Speaker 1: than eighty percent of it. But in twenty seventeen, Indiana 553 00:32:36,080 --> 00:32:41,200 Speaker 1: was twenty fifth state in expected solar deployment. Last year 554 00:32:41,360 --> 00:32:45,360 Speaker 1: it was fourth. So clearly your pipeline of solar is 555 00:32:45,400 --> 00:32:48,640 Speaker 1: growing and growing very rapidly. What's driving this boom? 556 00:32:48,720 --> 00:32:51,240 Speaker 4: Well, now, I don't think it's anything profound about it. 557 00:32:51,560 --> 00:32:54,240 Speaker 4: I think it's a number a few factors. I guess 558 00:32:54,280 --> 00:32:57,600 Speaker 4: I'd say one is, and forgive me, but this is 559 00:32:57,640 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 4: going to sound very simplistic to you, But one is. 560 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:02,320 Speaker 5: But we're just a good place to grow. 561 00:33:03,160 --> 00:33:09,760 Speaker 4: Our tax and our reasonable irrational regulatory regime is structured 562 00:33:10,400 --> 00:33:14,080 Speaker 4: so that you can't be irresponsible, but you can grow. 563 00:33:14,640 --> 00:33:18,520 Speaker 4: We can cultivate the sun here like we do a 564 00:33:18,560 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 4: soybeans a field for soybeans or corn. You can do 565 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:24,560 Speaker 4: that with the sun or wind, by the way, but 566 00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,000 Speaker 4: it's got to make dollars and cents, and that's why 567 00:33:27,040 --> 00:33:30,240 Speaker 4: you're seeing a state like Indiana really punch way above 568 00:33:30,280 --> 00:33:33,040 Speaker 4: its weight class. I mean, we're you mentioned those rankings 569 00:33:33,080 --> 00:33:36,160 Speaker 4: where we are for and that's up against some states 570 00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 4: that are significantly larger, you know, in terms of scale 571 00:33:40,200 --> 00:33:44,400 Speaker 4: and opportunity geographically speaking, on scale and so one, it's 572 00:33:44,440 --> 00:33:46,600 Speaker 4: that we're a good place to grow. Two, I would 573 00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,840 Speaker 4: say we're just blessed with I mean, we're still eighty 574 00:33:48,920 --> 00:33:52,160 Speaker 4: three eighty four percent farm or forest terrain. 575 00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:53,080 Speaker 5: You know. 576 00:33:53,200 --> 00:33:55,760 Speaker 4: Again, we're a small state relatively speaking, but we have 577 00:33:55,800 --> 00:34:01,040 Speaker 4: a lot of land which is required, and it's so exciting. 578 00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:05,800 Speaker 4: You mentioned solar we have under construction now. Dorale Energy 579 00:34:06,000 --> 00:34:09,200 Speaker 4: is building the largest solar farm in America right now, 580 00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:16,120 Speaker 4: thirteen thousand acres. And where credits do our rural community 581 00:34:16,160 --> 00:34:18,240 Speaker 4: is that terrain that I was talking about. Our rural 582 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:25,040 Speaker 4: communities are embracing technology and they're embracing the future, which 583 00:34:25,080 --> 00:34:28,279 Speaker 4: is oftentimes a big hurdle to get over. 584 00:34:28,719 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: Indiana is also the largest steel producer in the US, 585 00:34:32,040 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 1: and making steel requires lots of energy, which is mostly 586 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,000 Speaker 1: coming from coal that releases a lot of carbon dioxide. 587 00:34:39,160 --> 00:34:42,600 Speaker 1: What are you doing to reduce the steel industry's emissions 588 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,440 Speaker 1: while adopting new technologies and keeping jobs. 589 00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 4: Well, we are doing a number of things, but what 590 00:34:49,800 --> 00:34:52,040 Speaker 4: is most important, what the theme that I would like 591 00:34:52,080 --> 00:34:58,520 Speaker 4: to best convey is we are supporting those companies, as 592 00:34:58,520 --> 00:35:00,719 Speaker 4: I said in the very beginning, produce a lot of 593 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:04,680 Speaker 4: the steel because there's a lot of demand for steel, 594 00:35:05,480 --> 00:35:10,120 Speaker 4: and this steel is being shipped globally. So I always 595 00:35:10,120 --> 00:35:14,440 Speaker 4: start with you're welcome, you're getting steel at a good price, 596 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 4: and you're right. We're the number one steel manufacturing state 597 00:35:19,200 --> 00:35:22,399 Speaker 4: in America. Twenty eight percent of the steel last year 598 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:25,120 Speaker 4: was made in one state, Indiana. 599 00:35:25,160 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 5: So there's that now. 600 00:35:26,960 --> 00:35:33,160 Speaker 4: Having said that, the companies in Indiana that are making 601 00:35:33,360 --> 00:35:40,680 Speaker 4: steel are investing hundreds of millions of dollars to become 602 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:45,560 Speaker 4: cleaner and they measure that. And so what I wanted 603 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:47,919 Speaker 4: to do and will continue to do over the course 604 00:35:47,960 --> 00:35:49,920 Speaker 4: of the next couple of years. By the way, I 605 00:35:49,960 --> 00:35:53,720 Speaker 4: talked to some of these folks in charm Egypt, Charomut 606 00:35:53,760 --> 00:35:59,319 Speaker 4: Ship and I want to support those plans as they transition. 607 00:36:00,160 --> 00:36:01,200 Speaker 5: And that comes in a lot of. 608 00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:05,600 Speaker 4: Different ways from the state, but it's working in harmony 609 00:36:05,719 --> 00:36:10,440 Speaker 4: or in unison, not fighting their new way of doing business. 610 00:36:10,560 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 1: The Inflation Reduction Act, which passed last year is going 611 00:36:13,680 --> 00:36:17,919 Speaker 1: to supercharge much of the clean energy investments that you're 612 00:36:17,960 --> 00:36:20,400 Speaker 1: talking about. A lot of Republican states are going to 613 00:36:20,400 --> 00:36:25,200 Speaker 1: get money from this federal part that was approved. Now 614 00:36:25,200 --> 00:36:28,200 Speaker 1: that the Republicans are in charge of the House, what 615 00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:30,680 Speaker 1: do you think they're going to do to supur investment 616 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:32,839 Speaker 1: in innovation and clean tech? 617 00:36:33,160 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 4: Well, I hope, I hope and all convey to Art 618 00:36:36,480 --> 00:36:42,120 Speaker 4: delegation to continue to support not just a marketplace in 619 00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:46,800 Speaker 4: a general sense, but to support the Indiana ecosystem, which 620 00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:51,000 Speaker 4: is only going to grow as much as its power 621 00:36:51,160 --> 00:36:54,400 Speaker 4: to do so. And I will show them the facts 622 00:36:54,680 --> 00:37:00,440 Speaker 4: as I've been verbally sharing with you about how are 623 00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 4: different sources and where are companies whether it be Cleveland 624 00:37:06,960 --> 00:37:11,719 Speaker 4: Cliffs or US Steel, or BP an Inland oil refinery, 625 00:37:12,160 --> 00:37:16,760 Speaker 4: or a Lanco animal health company or you name it commins. 626 00:37:17,120 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 4: These are big companies and small but big companies who 627 00:37:21,200 --> 00:37:26,000 Speaker 4: are making again billions of dollars of investment that support 628 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 4: the small businesses in our stake. Now, separate of that, 629 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,919 Speaker 4: I again have to be honest, and I'm a little 630 00:37:34,960 --> 00:37:38,680 Speaker 4: bit skeptical or dubious when it was titled the Inflation 631 00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 4: Reduction Act because again, I. 632 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:43,920 Speaker 5: Just want to look at the facts. I want to 633 00:37:43,960 --> 00:37:46,839 Speaker 5: look at the correlation. What's the ROI. 634 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 4: Compared to inflation and the rate and how is it 635 00:37:51,320 --> 00:37:55,160 Speaker 4: driving it down? Now, I'm going to continue to govern 636 00:37:55,280 --> 00:37:58,280 Speaker 4: the way I have. So you know, our congressional delegation 637 00:37:58,360 --> 00:38:02,040 Speaker 4: shouldn't they wouldn't be surprised by that. But they've all 638 00:38:02,160 --> 00:38:06,200 Speaker 4: got I mentioned five auto ems and Commons and other 639 00:38:06,320 --> 00:38:11,040 Speaker 4: you know, steel Dynamics in Fort Wayne and Pasco down 640 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:15,160 Speaker 4: in Jeffersonville. So there's something very close to home that 641 00:38:15,360 --> 00:38:20,560 Speaker 4: is making major major investments into their future viability. 642 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:21,680 Speaker 5: We need to support that. 643 00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: Two thirds of Hoosiers support the effort to reach net 644 00:38:26,239 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: zero emissions and are willing to pay to accomplish that goal. 645 00:38:31,200 --> 00:38:33,719 Speaker 1: Would you set a net zero target for Indiana? 646 00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:39,960 Speaker 4: I set a goal to continue to work with the 647 00:38:40,040 --> 00:38:45,160 Speaker 4: community that is growing our economic not just engine but 648 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:51,280 Speaker 4: opportunity here. And I'm dealing with issues right now this 649 00:38:51,360 --> 00:38:54,600 Speaker 4: morning that have to do with the cost of living. 650 00:38:54,640 --> 00:38:58,000 Speaker 4: We're a very relatively low cost of compared to other 651 00:38:58,040 --> 00:39:02,200 Speaker 4: states in the country, cast of living place on planet Earth. 652 00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:07,680 Speaker 4: And yet today, as you mentioned one, it's very easy to. 653 00:39:07,680 --> 00:39:09,319 Speaker 5: Say, hey, I'll pay for it. 654 00:39:09,960 --> 00:39:11,440 Speaker 4: But I got to tell you, I got a long 655 00:39:11,640 --> 00:39:15,480 Speaker 4: line at my door that says I need my utility 656 00:39:15,560 --> 00:39:18,799 Speaker 4: rates lowerd that's a pull too, by the way, And 657 00:39:19,280 --> 00:39:22,319 Speaker 4: or I need my higher education reduced, or I need 658 00:39:22,320 --> 00:39:24,319 Speaker 4: my tech property taxes reduced, and we. 659 00:39:24,360 --> 00:39:25,680 Speaker 5: Got low property taxes. 660 00:39:26,239 --> 00:39:29,120 Speaker 4: It's one thing to say you're for and I don't 661 00:39:29,120 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 4: disagree with that. I'm sure in theory or rhetorically speaking, 662 00:39:34,680 --> 00:39:37,120 Speaker 4: I'd like to pay less too, But you got to 663 00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:41,640 Speaker 4: pay for what it costs. And there are major steps 664 00:39:41,640 --> 00:39:44,719 Speaker 4: that we can take in terms of efficiency, and some 665 00:39:44,840 --> 00:39:47,680 Speaker 4: of that comes through federal dollars as well for homeowners 666 00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:52,400 Speaker 4: where they can apply for grant funding to become a 667 00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 4: more efficient household in terms of energy consumption and use. 668 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,640 Speaker 1: So do you think not having a Nazero goal or 669 00:39:59,840 --> 00:40:04,160 Speaker 1: no having a requirement to reach a certain percentage of 670 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:09,080 Speaker 1: renewables percentage of solar or wind in the state's legislature 671 00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:13,680 Speaker 1: as a target will stop you from reaching your full 672 00:40:13,719 --> 00:40:16,520 Speaker 1: potential on clean energy? 673 00:40:16,280 --> 00:40:20,319 Speaker 4: Very fair question and one that I would say if 674 00:40:20,360 --> 00:40:25,200 Speaker 4: the facts showed me that, I would have concern. 675 00:40:25,600 --> 00:40:27,000 Speaker 5: But they're the opposite. 676 00:40:27,160 --> 00:40:33,640 Speaker 4: What we're seeing are the very cars or windmill blades 677 00:40:33,920 --> 00:40:39,080 Speaker 4: or panels that are required to be manufactured. Not just 678 00:40:39,160 --> 00:40:42,080 Speaker 4: keeping our lights on, but it's keeping the supply chain. 679 00:40:42,080 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 4: And we need a lot more of it. 680 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:43,919 Speaker 5: By the way. 681 00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 4: That's the other side of this equation is everything we're doing, 682 00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,280 Speaker 4: we need a lot more if we're going to continue 683 00:40:49,280 --> 00:40:52,560 Speaker 4: to make gain and it's got to be produced, made somewhere. 684 00:40:52,719 --> 00:40:53,560 Speaker 5: I want to make it. 685 00:40:53,880 --> 00:40:57,560 Speaker 4: And so that's why I'm happy to share the facts. 686 00:40:57,600 --> 00:41:00,279 Speaker 4: That you can write a law, sign up it in 687 00:41:01,320 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 4: to law, and that may make you feel good, But 688 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,920 Speaker 4: what makes me feel good is looking at the numbers 689 00:41:07,960 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 4: and looking at air quality and water quality and soil quality, 690 00:41:11,640 --> 00:41:15,400 Speaker 4: and measuring everything and sharing it and if it's not good, 691 00:41:15,920 --> 00:41:16,480 Speaker 4: just own. 692 00:41:16,360 --> 00:41:17,560 Speaker 5: Up to it and deal with it. 693 00:41:17,680 --> 00:41:20,600 Speaker 1: If you were to paint a picture, given you don't 694 00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: have a target set in law, what do you think 695 00:41:24,200 --> 00:41:29,160 Speaker 1: Indiana's economy green economy would look like in ten years 696 00:41:29,400 --> 00:41:30,560 Speaker 1: or twenty years time. 697 00:41:30,840 --> 00:41:35,160 Speaker 4: Will continue to make progress at the speed or pace 698 00:41:36,320 --> 00:41:39,520 Speaker 4: that we are now at the minimum, and again I'll 699 00:41:39,560 --> 00:41:42,359 Speaker 4: be working with our congressional delegation and make sure they 700 00:41:43,200 --> 00:41:47,319 Speaker 4: are fully up to speed on all the steps that 701 00:41:47,360 --> 00:41:49,560 Speaker 4: we're taking in terms of a hydrogen hub. Now there's 702 00:41:49,600 --> 00:41:51,360 Speaker 4: more steps to go, for sure, but I want to 703 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:55,200 Speaker 4: make sure that our delegation knows that we're pursuing this 704 00:41:56,040 --> 00:42:00,960 Speaker 4: and are hell bent on adding this a sore more 705 00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,200 Speaker 4: so as a source to our portfolio. 706 00:42:03,400 --> 00:42:04,640 Speaker 5: And so the. 707 00:42:05,040 --> 00:42:09,040 Speaker 4: Interesting thing is that the economy and the jobs, the 708 00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,360 Speaker 4: ecosystem of the future, the very jobs that we're going after, 709 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:17,160 Speaker 4: embrace this as well and are committed to it as well. 710 00:42:18,200 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 4: If you ignore the future of mobility is just one example, 711 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 4: or the role of more semiconductors in our automobiles, etc. 712 00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:28,920 Speaker 5: Et cetera, et cetera, then you're going to be left behind. 713 00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:30,600 Speaker 5: And we are not going to be left behind. 714 00:42:31,800 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 1: Thank you for taking the time, Governor. 715 00:42:33,800 --> 00:42:35,640 Speaker 5: Great to be with you and looking forward to it. 716 00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,879 Speaker 1: Climate action doesn't fit neatly into one political box, and 717 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: climate change, especially in the US, is still being politicized. 718 00:42:54,960 --> 00:42:59,000 Speaker 1: That politicization is now being extended to other domains beyond climate, 719 00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:04,000 Speaker 1: including ESG investing, which takes into consideration environmental, social, and 720 00:43:04,000 --> 00:43:07,080 Speaker 1: governance factors. For more on that, listen to a recent 721 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,880 Speaker 1: episode of our sister podcast, Crash Course, where ESG reporter 722 00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:14,560 Speaker 1: Sigel Kishen speaks about how conservatives in the us are 723 00:43:14,600 --> 00:43:17,960 Speaker 1: tackling this thorny issue. That episode is linked in the 724 00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:21,319 Speaker 1: show notes, along with other stories tied to the conversations 725 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:24,759 Speaker 1: we had today, and also a full transcript of this episode. 726 00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:28,400 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to Zero. If you enjoyed this week's episode, 727 00:43:28,520 --> 00:43:30,239 Speaker 1: please share it with a friend or send it to 728 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:33,520 Speaker 1: someone who recently moves states. Get in touch at zero 729 00:43:33,560 --> 00:43:36,720 Speaker 1: port at Bloomberg dot net. You can treat me at Akshatrati. 730 00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:40,960 Speaker 1: Zero's producer is Oscar Boyd and senior producer is Christine driscoll. 731 00:43:41,800 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: Our theme music is by Wonderly Special Thanks this week 732 00:43:45,080 --> 00:43:49,080 Speaker 1: to Brian Eckhaus, Aaron Clark, Jender Luis and Kira Bindram. 733 00:43:49,440 --> 00:43:55,880 Speaker 1: I'm Akshatrati back next week.