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Speaker 1: I'm Kate Winkler Dawson.

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Speaker 2: I'm a journalist who's spent the last twenty five years

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Speaker 2: writing about true crime.

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Speaker 3: And I'm Paul Hols, a retired cold case investigator who's

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Speaker 3: worked some of America's most complicated cases and solve them.

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Speaker 2: Each week, I present Paul with one of history's most

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Speaker 2: compelling true crimes.

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Speaker 3: And I weigh in using modern forensic techniques to bring

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Speaker 3: new insights to old mysteries.

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Speaker 2: Together, using our individual expertise, we're examining historical true crime

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Speaker 2: cases through a twenty first century lens.

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Speaker 4: Some are solved and some are cold, very cold.

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Speaker 1: This is buried Bones.

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Speaker 4: Hey, Kate, how's it going.

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Speaker 1: It's going well. How's it going with you?

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Speaker 4: I'm doing very good. What's going on in your world today?

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Speaker 2: Well, I was at the doctor's office, of course, you know,

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Speaker 2: for an annual exam, which everybody should get. And right

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Speaker 2: before the exam, she said, just don't want to have

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Speaker 2: a little bit of a fangirl moment. I heard you

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Speaker 2: on KUT, which is our radio station here in Austin.

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Speaker 1: One of them.

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Speaker 2: She said, I heard you on KUT, and I heard

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Speaker 2: you talking about this new book, you know, and your

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Speaker 2: shows and all of this stuff, and I just wanted

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Speaker 2: to tell you.

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Speaker 1: That I really like the work that you do.

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Speaker 2: And I started laughing, and I thought this might not

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Speaker 2: be the time when I'm wearing a gown that's opening

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Speaker 2: to the front.

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Speaker 4: Yes, yes, you.

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Speaker 2: Must get recognized in strange situations.

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Speaker 4: Also, well, you know, it's interesting.

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Speaker 3: It's been occasional for me out here, like in Colorado Springs,

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Speaker 3: I have been recognized. I think the first time I

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Speaker 3: was ever recognized out here, I was literally in my

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Speaker 3: barber's chair. I had the whole old gown on, and

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Speaker 3: of course I'm just looking straight in the mirror with

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Speaker 3: my barber behind me, and this woman comes up and

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Speaker 3: stands and is staring at me through the mirror, and

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Speaker 3: I was like looking at her, and then all of

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Speaker 3: a sudden, she goes, are you Paul Holes And yeah

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Speaker 3: I am.

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Speaker 4: She was like, oh, you know, and wanted to take

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Speaker 4: a picture and everything else.

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Speaker 3: So she actually has a picture of me with my

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Speaker 3: hair half cut, with the barber gownisle.

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Speaker 4: You know.

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Speaker 3: But the but the interesting thing is, you know, I've

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Speaker 3: done a fair amount of TV work, but I've actually

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Speaker 3: been recognized just by the voice, you know, from podcast

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Speaker 3: you know.

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Speaker 4: These listeners are so in tune to voices.

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Speaker 3: I've gotten into an Uber you know how the Uber

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Speaker 3: driver will ask just to confirm your name. So the

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Speaker 3: Uber driver, who is a woman, you know, she says,

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Speaker 3: are you Paul. I was like, yeah, I'm Paul, And

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Speaker 3: she goes, are you Paul holes And I was.

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Speaker 4: Like yeah, And I was like it was your voice,

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Speaker 4: you know. I listened to you, you know.

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Speaker 3: And and I was just blown away by that.

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Speaker 1: That's good thing. That means they like your voice. I'll

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Speaker 1: tell you.

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Speaker 2: One of the highlights of my career was working on

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Speaker 2: a documentary in San Francisco. And I love San Francisco

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Speaker 2: and I love going back there, and I like going

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Speaker 2: back there also in stories because I think it's such

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Speaker 2: an electric time period. My book American Sherlock was set

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Speaker 2: in nineteen twenties in the Bay Area. And this is

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Speaker 2: where we're going to be today.

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Speaker 4: Sounds like you're going to take me to my home

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Speaker 4: base in the Bay Area.

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Speaker 2: Yep, nineteen twenty San Francisco. Let's go ahead and set

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Speaker 2: the scene. So I'm going to keep the victim here

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Speaker 2: a mystery just for a little bit. This story consists

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Speaker 2: solely of two people, a married couple, man and a woman.

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Speaker 2: And as I said before, we are in nineteen twenties

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Speaker 2: San Francisco. So two people in the same apartment. One

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Speaker 2: ends up dead and the other one is arrested claiming

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Speaker 2: that the first person took their own life, okay, and

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Speaker 2: of course the police feel differently. So this is that

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Speaker 2: classic case is it suicide or is it murder? And

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Speaker 2: oftentimes it's the nuances of the forensics and the evidence

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Speaker 2: and reenactments that can shine light on a case like this.

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Speaker 2: And how do you really figure out when there are

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Speaker 2: two very distinct possibilities. Is there a case that comes

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Speaker 2: to mind for you that was like that, that sort

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Speaker 2: of difficult thing to untangle.

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Speaker 3: You know, there's been multiple suicide or murder cases that

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Speaker 3: I've had some roll in over the decades, and you know,

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Speaker 3: some are very clear cut once you know, start digging

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Speaker 3: into the details, and some they remain fuzzy. There's one

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Speaker 3: case that I do remember, and this was a case

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Speaker 3: in which a boyfriend called in nine one one said

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Speaker 3: his girlfriend had shot herself and was upstairs, and he

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Speaker 3: had gone upstairs and then called nine one one, and

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Speaker 3: then evaluating the case whether or not she could physically

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Speaker 3: shoot herself, wasn't the question. And that often and times,

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Speaker 3: you know, is what people think is could they have

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Speaker 3: pulled the trigger, you know, holding the gun the way

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Speaker 3: that they were shot or not. And most of the

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Speaker 3: time that is not going to differentiate suicide or homicide.

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Speaker 3: But in this particular case, you know, paramedics responded right away,

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Speaker 3: they transported her body. But when I'm looking at the

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Speaker 3: crime scene, there was a huge blood pool. But the

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Speaker 3: blood pool had congealed prior to her body being moved.

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Speaker 3: And this takes a long time. We're talking an hour

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Speaker 3: two hours for it to congeal. And now the boyfriend

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Speaker 3: is saying, I heard a gunshot.

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Speaker 4: I went upstairs. I called nine to one one right away,

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Speaker 4: and I'm.

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Speaker 3: Going no way, his timeline's off, his timelines off. The

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Speaker 3: blood told the tale, and unfortunately, in that case, that

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Speaker 3: was not enough and there wasn't any other information for

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Speaker 3: the DA to say, yes, I'm going to file charges.

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Speaker 4: So I truly believe that this man got away with murder.

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Speaker 2: You know, I have to listen to all of our episodes.

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Speaker 2: I mean, don't have to. I love listening to all

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Speaker 2: of our episodes, but for quality control, Alexis, the producer

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Speaker 2: asks me to listen to all of the episodes, and

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Speaker 2: I was just listening to an episode yesterday in which

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Speaker 2: you say, there are so many cases in your head

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Speaker 2: where you know who did it and you just can't

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Speaker 2: prove it. And you must have been talking about this

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Speaker 2: type of case also, where you just in your bones

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Speaker 2: know what happened, but you can't get it over the

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Speaker 2: finish line with a DA. So that must be incredibly frustrating,

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Speaker 2: especially a young woman who's dead and you just can

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Speaker 2: feel that the boyfriend was the one who did it.

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Speaker 3: Right well, and this is just part of it in

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Speaker 3: many ways, the checks and balances of our justice system.

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Speaker 3: You know, whether you're a forensic scientist and you find

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Speaker 3: evidence that you think is compelling, you know that points

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Speaker 3: towards involvement of let's say, a suspect in the crime,

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Speaker 3: or you're an investigator who has developed circumstantial evidence and

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Speaker 3: maybe even physical evidence forensic testing. You think you have

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Speaker 3: developed a compelling case, but then you have the DA

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Speaker 3: who has to evaluate the case and be convinced that

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Speaker 3: they can get to twelve members of the public to unanimously.

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Speaker 2: How do you say that unanimously I say, you know

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Speaker 2: what you said the other day. You said anonymity the

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Speaker 2: other day perfectly, and I thought, bastard, I can't ever

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Speaker 2: say that word.

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Speaker 1: I ad all over one of my books.

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Speaker 2: So when I was reading the audiobook, I said, I

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Speaker 2: will never write anonymity ever again.

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Speaker 3: Well, obviously, unanimously is a word that I struggle with.

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Speaker 1: But you did it. That was good.

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Speaker 4: I know that was just I would just threw it

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Speaker 4: out there, and it worked.

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Speaker 3: But when people are evaluating let's say, a conviction, if

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Speaker 3: everybody is working, let's say, with the right intent, because

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Speaker 3: we know there have been false convictions, but if everybody

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Speaker 3: is doing the right thing and making the right decisions

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Speaker 3: to go for the truth, you know there is some

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Speaker 3: weight to put on a final conviction. Doesn't mean it's

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Speaker 3: always correct, but you know, that's where it's like, Okay,

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Speaker 3: there are these checks and balances. If everybody is doing

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Speaker 3: their job and is seeking the truth.

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Speaker 1: Well, and I think that's a good point.

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Speaker 2: So seeking the truth is very complicated in this story,

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Speaker 2: so we'll see if you come to the same conclusion

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Speaker 2: that the jury did in this case. Let me tell

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Speaker 2: you about one of our two potential victims. The woman's

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Speaker 2: name is Grace Cheney and she was born in February

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Speaker 2: of eighteen ninety three in Oakland.

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Speaker 1: But then she goes to San Francisco as a young adult.

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Speaker 2: She becomes a figure model for local artists, a prominent

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Speaker 2: figure in the bohemian life of San Francisco. And we

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Speaker 2: don't know a lot about her young adulthood. We do

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Speaker 2: know that she was married two or three times according

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Speaker 2: to the media.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So if I could just interrupt briefly, you know,

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Speaker 3: as I say, victimology's huge, and you've mentioned bohemian, and

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Speaker 3: for me, when I hear the term bohemian, I think

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Speaker 3: queen and Bohemian rhapsody. I really don't know what a

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Speaker 3: bohemian lifestyle is.

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Speaker 2: It's not hippie, but I just think it's very sort

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Speaker 2: of spiritually connected, I would say, just a contrast to

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Speaker 2: conventional people. And in the nineteen twenties, we are not

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Speaker 2: hitting the Roaring twenties. Yet when this happens in the

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Speaker 2: Roaring twenties, you have flappers, you have women really embracing

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Speaker 2: sexuality and a lot more open mindedness.

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Speaker 1: So this is a little bit of a precursor to that.

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Speaker 2: Okay, So she is someone who has been married several times,

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Speaker 2: which makes her, in my mind, framed as someone who

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Speaker 2: falls in love with being in love. But I don't

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Speaker 2: think that's really the case. Once we get into her history.

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Speaker 2: When she's sixteen, she marries a lumberclerk named William Christie

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Speaker 2: and they divorced after just two years in nineteen eleven.

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Speaker 2: Because this first marriage is very abusive, very violent, and

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Speaker 2: the thing that drew the line for Grace was when

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Speaker 2: William threw a large rock through a window at a

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Speaker 2: piano company in San Francisco where she was working as

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Speaker 2: a secretary, and he was threatening to kill her.

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Speaker 1: The glass shattered everywhere.

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Speaker 2: She became very scared, and she wanted him arrested and said,

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Speaker 2: you know, if he's not restrained, he's going to kill me.

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Speaker 1: I just know it. So she divorced him.

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Speaker 2: So she already at a young age at eighteen, she's

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Speaker 2: divorced from this man, and William Christy is not a

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Speaker 2: predominant part of the story, but it's important to give

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Speaker 2: us context on the kind of man that she had

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Speaker 2: once been married to.

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Speaker 3: Well, it also speaks to whatever crime you know you're

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Speaker 3: going to be bringing up in terms of who's the

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Speaker 3: victim and who's the suspect. It speaks to a life

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Speaker 3: experience that she has had. And from my perspective, is

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Speaker 3: this a learning point for her or is she drawn

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Speaker 3: to this type of relationship?

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Speaker 2: Right, So, once she's divorced from this man William, she

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Speaker 2: goes and she dates and she continues this career as

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Speaker 2: a model, And about ten years after that divorce, when

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Speaker 2: she's twenty eight, she marries a man named Harry Brady

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Speaker 2: on Christmas Eve in nineteen twenty one. He is younger

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Speaker 2: than she is by about seven years, so he's twenty

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Speaker 2: one and she's twenty eight. He was born in Mexico,

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Speaker 2: and he was described as a musician and a songwriter,

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Speaker 2: kind of a man about town. Seems like they probably

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Speaker 2: matched each other's energies, very social, kind of free spirited,

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Speaker 2: somebody who's artistic. Sounds like a good person just on

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Speaker 2: the outside, like they would be compatible together because they

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Speaker 2: were both connected in some ways to the Bay Area's

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Speaker 2: artist community. So we're talking at least about a relationship

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Speaker 2: that has potential to be a positive influence in Grace's life.

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Speaker 3: Okay, so now we get to a point to where

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Speaker 3: they're living together.

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Speaker 2: They are, they're married, they live together. The only complaint

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Speaker 2: that Grace has, just to friends in general, is that

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Speaker 2: she felt like the marriage to Harry was rushed by

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Speaker 2: his mother. He was very close to his mother, and

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Speaker 2: it sounds like she was dying and had some very

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Speaker 2: severe health problems and she wanted to see her son

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Speaker 2: married before she died. It sounds like Grace just thought

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Speaker 2: this is a little too fast. But Harry seems like

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Speaker 2: a good guy on the outside.

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Speaker 3: So Grace actually is a decision maker and getting married

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Speaker 3: as well, and she decided she's weighing the pros and

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Speaker 3: cons and decides, well, the pros outweigh the cons.

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Speaker 4: It's one of the cons being this is.

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Speaker 3: Rushed, yep, but you know, it looks like it could

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Speaker 3: work out, and so let's go for it.

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Speaker 4: But it sounds like when she's talking to her friends,

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Speaker 4: she's having regrets.

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Speaker 2: She seems to be having a few regrets, and this

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Speaker 2: all comes to a head. It seems just one year

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Speaker 2: into their marriage. So they were married on Christmas Eve,

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Speaker 2: nineteen twenty one. The incident happens December second of nineteen

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Speaker 2: twenty two, so this is just a few weeks. Shy

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Speaker 2: of their one year wedding anniversary. He's twenty two, she's

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Speaker 2: twenty nine. Now let's talk about the victim. We know

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Speaker 2: statistically it would be the woman who ends up dying

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Speaker 2: if there's any kind of a domestic dispute. Is that right?

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Speaker 3: Well, in my experience, for sure, when there are incidents

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Speaker 3: of domestic violence, the women often end up being the victim.

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Speaker 3: Now I've seen cases though, where the man is the.

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Speaker 1: Victim, and that's the case here.

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Speaker 2: Oh okay, So there's the apartment I mentioned in San Francisco.

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Speaker 2: Harry and Grace are the only two people who live there,

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Speaker 2: and on December second, nineteen twenty two, Harry dies of

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Speaker 2: a gunshot wound to the head. There's actually two wounds,

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Speaker 2: and that becomes very important, which is why I need you.

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Speaker 2: Otherwise I could solve this case on my own. You know,

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Speaker 2: I hate ballistics.

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Speaker 1: Just kidding. I could never solve this case on my own.

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Speaker 1: This is a case that's.

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Speaker 2: Complicated and one that I know comes up throughout history.

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Speaker 2: So when the police are called, Grace calls the police.

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Speaker 2: When she finds Harry, she says, laying on their couch.

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Speaker 2: When the police come, he's unconscious. She is the only

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Speaker 2: other person in the house. And she immediately says to

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Speaker 2: the police he died by suicide. And they say, of course,

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Speaker 2: tell us what happened, and she says, she was in

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Speaker 2: the kitchen she heard two loud bangs.

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Speaker 1: She immediately rushed to where Harry was. He was on

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Speaker 1: the couch in the living room.

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Speaker 2: As I said, he was wounded and despondent, and she's

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Speaker 2: trying everything she could think of, she says, to help

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Speaker 2: him to no avail, and so she contacts the police.

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Speaker 2: The police are immediately suspicious. They think that Grace is

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Speaker 2: guilt and they arrest her the same night. So something

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Speaker 2: does not fly with them about Grace's story.

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Speaker 1: Just from this little.

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Speaker 2: Bit of information, maybe you have like a beat cop

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Speaker 2: who is calling into you and saying, Paul, this is

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Speaker 2: the only thing I know about this case. Is there

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Speaker 2: any little detail that I've told you that stands out

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Speaker 2: to you?

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Speaker 4: Well? The two shots?

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Speaker 3: Okay, this is where today if there is a suspected suicide,

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Speaker 3: but there's multiple gunshots that have been fired let's say,

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Speaker 3: to the head, then that would be eyeballed. Now, it

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Speaker 3: is not impossible for somebody to have fired into their

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Speaker 3: head several times. You know, it all depends on does

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Speaker 3: the first bullet penetrate the skull, what brain structures are hit?

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Speaker 3: Is there a malfunctioning firearm, you know, does that come

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Speaker 3: into play. There's a lot of factors that need to

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Speaker 3: be evaluated to determine whether or not two shots could

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Speaker 3: have been fired by the victim in a suicide. However,

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Speaker 3: having responded out to suicides with gunshot wounds to the head,

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Speaker 3: I have not personally had a case involving two shots

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Speaker 3: to the head.

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Speaker 2: Well, let me tell you about this case and the

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Speaker 2: results from the autopsy. And then there are experts, as

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00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,360
Speaker 2: you can imagine, on both sides, because Grace is in

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Speaker 2: trouble and Grace will end up on trial, and there

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Speaker 2: are experts on both sides who have very different opinions.

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Speaker 2: So it's good to hear that you yourself have not

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Speaker 2: responded to a case where there were multiple shots from

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Speaker 2: somebody who had taken their own life, but at the

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Speaker 2: same time that it is possible and we know it'll

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Speaker 2: be possible. There are some details that are very interesting.

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Speaker 2: I think you'll think this is a fascinating case. Let's

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Speaker 2: start with the gun. Thirty eight caliber bullets fired from

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Speaker 2: a revolver. He has hit in three different places. Now,

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Speaker 2: I don't want you to think necessarily as Paul holds

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Speaker 2: a forensic investigator and come to a conclusion immediately, which

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Speaker 2: I know you won't until you have more information. But

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Speaker 2: the experts bring up some good points on both sides.

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Speaker 2: He's hit three different places. One bullet is sent through

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Speaker 2: his right hand onto his right temple, and the second

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Speaker 2: shot fires directly into his right temple. So there's two shots,

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Speaker 2: but it hits three different places, the hand, you know,

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Speaker 2: then the temple, and then another kind of straight into

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Speaker 2: the temple.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, you know.

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Speaker 3: And shooting cases, this is a very typical scenario where

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Speaker 3: bullets enter and exit limbs and then re enter the body,

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Speaker 3: whether it be the torso, the head, et cetera. So

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Speaker 3: that is very typical something that is expected in shootings.

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Speaker 3: But now I need to know a lot more about

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Speaker 3: what they saw, what they found as they're evaluating these

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Speaker 3: gunshot wounds and the associated evidence.

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Speaker 2: We'll talk about the evidence because she's going on trial

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00:17:51,520 --> 00:17:55,440
Speaker 2: very soon. Let's talk about what the police think could

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Speaker 2: be a motive. And boy, it is slimpickens for the police.

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00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:02,520
Speaker 2: So they find photograph of a guy named George Sterlin,

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Speaker 2: the poet is what he's called, which is another bohemian

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00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:08,840
Speaker 2: figure in the Bay area, and they find it in

340
00:18:08,920 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 2: the Barti home. And they also discover a letter data

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00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:16,280
Speaker 2: just a few weeks before the murderer. We're calling it

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00:18:16,320 --> 00:18:20,959
Speaker 2: a murder written by Missus Barratti, who was you know, Grace.

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Speaker 2: They also find a letter from a different person and

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Speaker 2: it was written to Grace from this guy named Van

345
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Speaker 2: who asks Grace to drop him a line in Stockton

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Speaker 2: when she's there next, which is about eighty five miles

347
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Speaker 2: away from San Francisco. And so the police, I think,

348
00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:43,320
Speaker 2: are saying that she was having an affair, possibly with

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Speaker 2: both of these men or either of these two men,

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Speaker 2: based on one of them having a photograph in the

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Speaker 2: house and the other one of this to me very

352
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Speaker 2: non sexual letter, just saying hey, look me up when.

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Speaker 1: You get well, you get to Stockton.

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Speaker 2: But maybe that line is different from the nineteen twenties

355
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Speaker 2: than it is now. It just seems really like thin

356
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Speaker 2: motive to me.

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Speaker 3: Right, you know, I think they're doing the right thing

358
00:19:06,320 --> 00:19:09,920
Speaker 3: in terms of okay, there appear to be other individuals

359
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,360
Speaker 3: in her social circles, but this is where gumshoe investigation

360
00:19:14,560 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 3: has to kick in. Now it's going out talking to

361
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:21,040
Speaker 3: these men, talking to her friends, you know, trying to

362
00:19:21,240 --> 00:19:25,840
Speaker 3: establish is she involved in an affair? Is she talking

363
00:19:25,880 --> 00:19:29,800
Speaker 3: about her relationship to Harry in a negative way. It

364
00:19:29,840 --> 00:19:31,840
Speaker 3: has to be more than just communication. You have to

365
00:19:31,880 --> 00:19:36,880
Speaker 3: start putting substance to these relationships to draw a conclusion. Well,

366
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:41,360
Speaker 3: here's a potential motive. But just because somebody has what

367
00:19:41,560 --> 00:19:45,400
Speaker 3: oftentimes could be motive for a crime, doesn't mean they

368
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Speaker 3: act on that motive exactly.

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00:19:47,920 --> 00:19:51,200
Speaker 2: We also as investigators have a problem because it's hard

370
00:19:51,320 --> 00:19:54,679
Speaker 2: to discover a motive for murder in this case. I

371
00:19:54,760 --> 00:19:58,160
Speaker 2: think they talk to family and friends, who on both

372
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Speaker 2: sides say they.

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Speaker 1: Seem to have a goo marriage. Gray says this too.

374
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Speaker 2: There were no incidents of violence or hostility in their marriage.

375
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Speaker 2: She said Harry was a great guy, his friends, everybody

376
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Speaker 2: said they seem.

377
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Speaker 1: To be a good couple. They follow up with the

378
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Speaker 1: two men.

379
00:20:13,920 --> 00:20:16,760
Speaker 2: No affair that anybody is willing to admit to, and

380
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Speaker 2: none of the friends think she's had an affair or

381
00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,359
Speaker 2: Harry's had an affair. So this seems like a nice

382
00:20:22,600 --> 00:20:25,199
Speaker 2: couple just from the onset, which is a problem for

383
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Speaker 2: investigators because they cannot come up with a motive once

384
00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:34,040
Speaker 2: they've really looked into the personal backgrounds of these two people.

385
00:20:34,440 --> 00:20:38,120
Speaker 2: For murder, suicide's a different matter, but for murder, they

386
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,920
Speaker 2: seem to have a hard time finding a motive. Does

387
00:20:40,920 --> 00:20:44,040
Speaker 2: that matter because can't just an argument for no reason

388
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Speaker 2: break out and that's the reason why it happens. Does

389
00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:49,720
Speaker 2: there have to be some sort of a bigger background

390
00:20:49,720 --> 00:20:50,560
Speaker 2: event happening.

391
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Speaker 3: No, And that's a misconception that is often exaggerated, if

392
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Speaker 3: you will, within the media, if you're watching TV shows

393
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Speaker 3: or movies.

394
00:20:59,119 --> 00:21:01,560
Speaker 4: Is that you know, law enforcement is the.

395
00:21:01,640 --> 00:21:04,160
Speaker 3: God to find motive and the reality is is there

396
00:21:04,440 --> 00:21:07,720
Speaker 3: there are many cases in which you never figure out

397
00:21:08,040 --> 00:21:11,639
Speaker 3: what the motive would be, but you have the evidence

398
00:21:11,840 --> 00:21:15,880
Speaker 3: to prove that this person is responsible for the violence.

399
00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,640
Speaker 3: You know. So here they're looking at it from Grace's

400
00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:23,639
Speaker 3: the suspect, and you know what is her motive and

401
00:21:24,000 --> 00:21:27,959
Speaker 3: oftentimes you know, love triangles or affairs, et cetera, our

402
00:21:28,080 --> 00:21:31,040
Speaker 3: motive in order for somebody to commit a homicide to

403
00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 3: improve their life and move on from a relationship. But

404
00:21:34,600 --> 00:21:37,520
Speaker 3: now we also have Grace, I mean, she initially calls

405
00:21:37,560 --> 00:21:39,199
Speaker 3: us in as a suicide, and so we have to

406
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:43,720
Speaker 3: evaluate Harry and his life and is there anything going

407
00:21:43,840 --> 00:21:48,560
Speaker 3: on within his life that would be predictive of somebody

408
00:21:48,600 --> 00:21:53,120
Speaker 3: who's willing to kill themselves. And sometimes retrospectively, we call

409
00:21:53,200 --> 00:21:56,720
Speaker 3: these like psychological autopsies where you bring in the.

410
00:21:56,680 --> 00:21:58,320
Speaker 4: Psychologists, a psychiatrist.

411
00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:00,440
Speaker 3: In this day and age, you know, you can bring

412
00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:05,280
Speaker 3: in profilers and then you compile all the information about

413
00:22:05,320 --> 00:22:08,600
Speaker 3: the victimology of the person and is there anything to

414
00:22:08,760 --> 00:22:12,679
Speaker 3: indicate that stands out that this is somebody who is

415
00:22:12,720 --> 00:22:16,000
Speaker 3: deciding that their life is no longer worth living. And

416
00:22:16,040 --> 00:22:18,560
Speaker 3: so that's going to be my focus, you know, listening

417
00:22:18,600 --> 00:22:21,640
Speaker 3: to this is okay, what did they do to indicate

418
00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:25,040
Speaker 3: whether or not there is something that Harry decided I

419
00:22:25,200 --> 00:22:28,159
Speaker 3: just want out of this life. But fundamentally, and I

420
00:22:28,200 --> 00:22:30,440
Speaker 3: know you told me to just set aside being the

421
00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,479
Speaker 3: forensic investigator, you know, and it's kind of hard for

422
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:35,120
Speaker 3: me to just kind of be listening to the story

423
00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,679
Speaker 3: eating popcorn. I'm always asking the question is that you know,

424
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:42,760
Speaker 3: you still have to the crime scene, the autopsy, the

425
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:47,680
Speaker 3: physical evidence, all of this still has to provide information

426
00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:50,200
Speaker 3: as to whether or not this is this is homicide

427
00:22:50,280 --> 00:22:53,159
Speaker 3: or suicide. Is there anything that can differentiate it, you know,

428
00:22:53,240 --> 00:22:55,320
Speaker 3: and that's where you know, the two shots, the shot

429
00:22:55,359 --> 00:22:58,000
Speaker 3: through the right hand to the right temple. Right now,

430
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:00,840
Speaker 3: I'm going, okay, I've got some concerns the assessment of

431
00:23:00,840 --> 00:23:02,800
Speaker 3: this being a suicide. But I also want to know

432
00:23:03,160 --> 00:23:06,359
Speaker 3: is there a predilection on Harry's part and his past

433
00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:08,560
Speaker 3: indicate that he might be willing to take his life?

434
00:23:08,840 --> 00:23:26,560
Speaker 2: Yes, very much so, so let's talk about that. There

435
00:23:26,600 --> 00:23:28,959
Speaker 2: is a much stronger motive for Harry to take his

436
00:23:29,000 --> 00:23:31,880
Speaker 2: own life than for Grace. It sounds like she has

437
00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:36,159
Speaker 2: said and his friends have confirmed that he has a

438
00:23:36,280 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: history of depression and that he was in a very

439
00:23:39,920 --> 00:23:43,840
Speaker 2: emotionally fraught place when he died. She said that the

440
00:23:43,880 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 2: death of his mother was absolutely devastating, and this happened

441
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:49,840
Speaker 2: less than a year earlier. Remember this is the mother who,

442
00:23:49,920 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 2: it sounds like, rush them to get married because she

443
00:23:52,359 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 2: wanted to see her son happy. She might have been

444
00:23:54,320 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 2: worried about him. He had made some bad investments. He's

445
00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:00,199
Speaker 2: sort of an arty guy. It doesn't sound like he

446
00:24:00,440 --> 00:24:04,480
Speaker 2: had a particularly steady job, but he lost around twenty

447
00:24:04,640 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 2: seven hundred dollars in a bad investment, which is fifty

448
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:10,240
Speaker 2: thousand dollars today, and they're in an apartment. They don't

449
00:24:10,280 --> 00:24:13,720
Speaker 2: own property, so fifty thousand dollars is an awful lot

450
00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:17,600
Speaker 2: for them, I imagine. Also, his own father died by

451
00:24:17,640 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 2: suicide early in Harry's life. Also, also, the building's janitor,

452
00:24:24,040 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 2: who was the last person aside from Grace to see him,

453
00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:31,800
Speaker 2: had just stopped by that night to collect their household garbage.

454
00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:34,479
Speaker 2: And when he was there, he said, we have a

455
00:24:34,480 --> 00:24:38,719
Speaker 2: new landlord and they're raising your rent, and Harry really

456
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,200
Speaker 2: got upset. The janitor confirmed this. Grace said it took

457
00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:45,080
Speaker 2: a while to calm him down with soothing words. The

458
00:24:45,119 --> 00:24:46,800
Speaker 2: next thing she knows, he's dead.

459
00:24:47,080 --> 00:24:47,800
Speaker 1: So that's a lot.

460
00:24:48,200 --> 00:24:53,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a fair amount there to indicate that suicide

461
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:54,919
Speaker 4: is a possibility with Harry.

462
00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:57,480
Speaker 3: It's not like, you know, if the investigators are going

463
00:24:57,560 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 3: out at talking to family and friends and they're going

464
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,239
Speaker 3: he was full of life and was looking forward to,

465
00:25:03,440 --> 00:25:06,320
Speaker 3: you know, doing this activity tomorrow or his birthday, or

466
00:25:06,680 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 3: you know, the typical things that you know, family and

467
00:25:09,119 --> 00:25:12,240
Speaker 3: friends will say when somebody has killed themselves and they're shocked.

468
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 4: However, most certainly it sounds like Grace is very well aware.

469
00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:20,520
Speaker 3: Of many of these aspects of Harry and could have

470
00:25:20,760 --> 00:25:25,720
Speaker 3: capitalized on these characteristics and try to stage this homicide

471
00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,960
Speaker 3: into a suicide based on his past.

472
00:25:28,720 --> 00:25:33,439
Speaker 2: But why he has zero money, Paul, he has no money.

473
00:25:33,520 --> 00:25:36,240
Speaker 2: It doesn't sound like he's having an affair. He doesn't

474
00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:39,959
Speaker 2: sound violent. What would be her motive? And people are

475
00:25:39,960 --> 00:25:42,879
Speaker 2: saying they look like a happy couple aside from Harry,

476
00:25:43,000 --> 00:25:44,600
Speaker 2: you know, having bounts of depression.

477
00:25:45,119 --> 00:25:49,960
Speaker 3: Well, you know, even though investigators have dug into Grace's life,

478
00:25:50,080 --> 00:25:55,280
Speaker 3: you know, you can never uncover everybody's secrets, and those

479
00:25:55,320 --> 00:26:00,479
Speaker 3: secrets may have manifested themselves in actual physical actions. But

480
00:26:00,600 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 3: there's also secrets people have that they want to act out.

481
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:07,600
Speaker 3: Let's say, maybe there's somebody that she has an interest

482
00:26:07,640 --> 00:26:10,360
Speaker 3: in and would love to be able to pursue a relationship,

483
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:15,240
Speaker 3: but there's no outwardly act to be able to substantiate that.

484
00:26:15,320 --> 00:26:19,960
Speaker 3: She's just feeling that people kill to improve their lives sometimes,

485
00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:23,720
Speaker 3: and this may be a situation to where Grace is going.

486
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:26,320
Speaker 3: It's not working with Harry. I'd rather have a different

487
00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:28,720
Speaker 3: person in my life, or I'd rather have more freedom

488
00:26:28,720 --> 00:26:31,080
Speaker 3: in my life. You would think we'll just walk away.

489
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:33,840
Speaker 3: That is, if you're at that point, you just walk away.

490
00:26:34,440 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 3: But some people will kill in order to just kind

491
00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:39,240
Speaker 3: of be able to move on. And so that's one

492
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:42,080
Speaker 3: of those things that Okay, is Grace one of those persons.

493
00:26:42,119 --> 00:26:44,200
Speaker 3: Did she just decide I want to improve my life

494
00:26:44,240 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: and Harry's done?

495
00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:48,360
Speaker 2: But I mean, let's just admit playing the devil's advocate

496
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,919
Speaker 2: in the grand scheme of motives, Grace doesn't seem to

497
00:26:51,960 --> 00:26:54,240
Speaker 2: have as much of a motive as other people we've

498
00:26:54,280 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 2: talked about over the course of this, you know, twenty

499
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:58,840
Speaker 2: odd episodes of this show.

500
00:26:58,880 --> 00:27:01,160
Speaker 1: To me, I understand what you're saying.

501
00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,080
Speaker 2: It sounds like she could have been better off without

502
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 2: him for a couple of different reasons.

503
00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: And you're right.

504
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:08,439
Speaker 2: She might have just become frustrated with him having a

505
00:27:08,480 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 2: complete meltdown over this rent issue, and some altercation happened

506
00:27:13,520 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 2: that we don't know about. And so I'm also going

507
00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:18,080
Speaker 2: to keep an open mind, especially once we get to

508
00:27:18,119 --> 00:27:20,640
Speaker 2: the ballistics. Let me tell you exactly what she told

509
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,200
Speaker 2: police on the exact timeline, and then you can tell

510
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,720
Speaker 2: me if this gives you any more information. She's been

511
00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:29,240
Speaker 2: consistent from the time she tells police what happened all

512
00:27:29,280 --> 00:27:32,479
Speaker 2: the way through trial, because she ends up testifying on

513
00:27:32,520 --> 00:27:35,320
Speaker 2: her own behalf. So this is what she says. Here's

514
00:27:35,320 --> 00:27:37,760
Speaker 2: the outline of what happened. So it's December second in

515
00:27:37,760 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 2: San Francisco. She gets home from work around five point

516
00:27:40,760 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 2: thirty and Harry gets home about six, and they decide

517
00:27:43,840 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 2: to go Hut to dinner. She points out she paid

518
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,320
Speaker 2: for it because Harriet has no money because of this

519
00:27:48,400 --> 00:27:49,160
Speaker 2: bad investment.

520
00:27:49,480 --> 00:27:51,840
Speaker 1: They go home and he lays down on the couch.

521
00:27:52,000 --> 00:27:55,200
Speaker 2: He just wants to be quiet and not doing anything else.

522
00:27:55,720 --> 00:27:59,360
Speaker 2: He was supposed to play at a local hotel he's

523
00:27:59,400 --> 00:28:02,400
Speaker 2: a musician at eight thirty that night, and in let's

524
00:28:02,440 --> 00:28:04,400
Speaker 2: say two hours, he's supposed to get up and leave

525
00:28:04,440 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 2: and go to this gig. He says, can you get

526
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:10,080
Speaker 2: me an outfit? She goes, and this sounds typical for her.

527
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:12,280
Speaker 2: She goes and picks out an outfit to wear to

528
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:17,160
Speaker 2: this gig, and she put his revolver on with the outfit,

529
00:28:17,320 --> 00:28:19,320
Speaker 2: like by the outfit. So she lays out the outfit

530
00:28:19,359 --> 00:28:20,720
Speaker 2: next to him on the couch and she puts a

531
00:28:20,800 --> 00:28:24,720
Speaker 2: revolver on the outfit which he always took with him

532
00:28:24,720 --> 00:28:27,720
Speaker 2: to these late night sets because it was dangerous and

533
00:28:27,760 --> 00:28:28,919
Speaker 2: so this was very normal.

534
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:30,280
Speaker 1: No one was surprised by this.

535
00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,879
Speaker 2: He carried a gun, she gave it to him, and

536
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:37,320
Speaker 2: he's laying on the couch. The janitor comes by, he

537
00:28:37,359 --> 00:28:40,320
Speaker 2: gives him this bad news. Harry is very upset. Grace

538
00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,960
Speaker 2: calms him down, and she finally got him to a

539
00:28:44,000 --> 00:28:46,080
Speaker 2: place where he can just lie back on the couch

540
00:28:46,120 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 2: and everything's okay, she says. She goes into the kitchen

541
00:28:49,000 --> 00:28:52,440
Speaker 2: to do the chores and she hears a sound that

542
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:56,400
Speaker 2: to her sounded like an automobile backfire. She runs into

543
00:28:56,440 --> 00:28:59,200
Speaker 2: the room where Harry was and she says that he

544
00:28:59,360 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 2: is having convulsions with blood on his face. She runs

545
00:29:03,680 --> 00:29:06,200
Speaker 2: down the apartment building's office and tells the manager to

546
00:29:06,200 --> 00:29:07,719
Speaker 2: call a doctor and call the police.

547
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 1: Okay, what do you think of that? Is that all

548
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 1: tally to you?

549
00:29:11,200 --> 00:29:14,640
Speaker 3: Well, so, at least in that statement, she's only hearing

550
00:29:14,720 --> 00:29:15,880
Speaker 3: a single.

551
00:29:15,760 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: Shot, that's what she says, But I mean, you're going

552
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:20,440
Speaker 1: through trauma. What would you think?

553
00:29:20,880 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 4: A gunshot in a small apartment is very very loud.

554
00:29:23,800 --> 00:29:26,920
Speaker 4: Two gunshots in a small apartment would be very easy

555
00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:30,440
Speaker 4: to perceive. And this is this is a revolver, trigger pool,

556
00:29:30,640 --> 00:29:33,640
Speaker 4: rotate the cylinder to put the next live round underneath

557
00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:35,760
Speaker 4: trigger pool. You know, depends on the you know, the

558
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 4: make and model the revolver, but generally they would be

559
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:42,680
Speaker 4: perceived as two different shots. I'm a little bit skeptical

560
00:29:42,760 --> 00:29:45,800
Speaker 4: that she's saying a single shot. I'm also skeptical about her.

561
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:47,920
Speaker 3: You know, she is interacting with the weapon that was

562
00:29:47,960 --> 00:29:51,479
Speaker 3: actually used right before it's used. Maybe she's telling the truth,

563
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 3: but that's something that's standing out to me. Additionally, it's

564
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 3: the financial situation, and this is something you brought up

565
00:29:59,560 --> 00:30:02,280
Speaker 3: a little bit earlier in terms of, you know, they

566
00:30:02,280 --> 00:30:04,840
Speaker 3: go out to eat, but she pays because he doesn't

567
00:30:04,840 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 3: have any money yet they're married, he's got a bunch

568
00:30:07,840 --> 00:30:11,920
Speaker 3: of debt. He's now being told the rent is going up. Well,

569
00:30:12,160 --> 00:30:16,440
Speaker 3: the debt and the cost of rent is also her problem.

570
00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:20,240
Speaker 3: And so now it's is there a financial motive for

571
00:30:20,320 --> 00:30:24,360
Speaker 3: her to eliminate him? You know, of course, life insurance

572
00:30:24,400 --> 00:30:28,120
Speaker 3: policy being you know, one thing, but suicide may negate

573
00:30:28,240 --> 00:30:32,240
Speaker 3: that life insurance policy. The other aspect, though, is she

574
00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:37,480
Speaker 3: seeing that if she continues staying with him, is her lifestyle,

575
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:41,120
Speaker 3: her bohemian lifestyle going to be negatively impacted because they

576
00:30:41,120 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: can no longer afford to do what she wants to

577
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:45,240
Speaker 3: be able to do.

578
00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,640
Speaker 2: So I will point out two things, just as a

579
00:30:48,720 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 2: lay person in this situation. Number One, Grace seems pretty

580
00:30:52,480 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: good at divorce. She's been married a couple of times

581
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:57,720
Speaker 2: and divorced a couple of times. She doesn't seem like

582
00:30:57,760 --> 00:31:01,400
Speaker 2: somebody who feels like there is some sort of social

583
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:05,440
Speaker 2: stigma with being divorced. So to me, that feels a

584
00:31:05,480 --> 00:31:07,960
Speaker 2: little important. I know what you're saying, But at the

585
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:10,600
Speaker 2: same time, you know it's not unprecedented for her to

586
00:31:10,680 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 2: leave a man behind.

587
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,160
Speaker 4: I think that's a good point.

588
00:31:13,200 --> 00:31:16,120
Speaker 2: And number two, it did not occur to me until

589
00:31:16,160 --> 00:31:18,960
Speaker 2: I was listening to you talk about this the single shot.

590
00:31:19,680 --> 00:31:23,280
Speaker 2: I don't know enough about nineteen twenties cars to say

591
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:28,360
Speaker 2: this definitively, but I bet you anything that a backfire

592
00:31:28,560 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 2: is multiple sounds on a nineteen twenties car, not just

593
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 2: one sound like what we're used to. I mean, it's

594
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:36,120
Speaker 2: a big there's one hundred year difference between engines.

595
00:31:36,160 --> 00:31:38,600
Speaker 3: What do you think back in the days when when

596
00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 3: you'd hear backfires more frequently, You know, back in the seventies,

597
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,720
Speaker 3: and yeah, for sure, you could have a single backfire.

598
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 3: You could have multiple backfires as the car is pulled away,

599
00:31:50,080 --> 00:31:52,640
Speaker 3: So you know there is you know, if she's just

600
00:31:53,240 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 3: running together the audio sounds and dismissing it as a

601
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:00,640
Speaker 3: single backfire, but it was actually multiple rapports.

602
00:32:01,040 --> 00:32:02,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, I could see that for sure.

603
00:32:02,920 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 2: Okay, so we're now down to could Harry Baratti physically

604
00:32:08,880 --> 00:32:10,080
Speaker 2: shoot himself twice?

605
00:32:10,360 --> 00:32:11,960
Speaker 1: Does that on your understanding?

606
00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: Really, what it drills down to is what did the

607
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,280
Speaker 2: experts say about what are the chances that this man

608
00:32:17,320 --> 00:32:20,479
Speaker 2: would have shot himself twice versus grace?

609
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,520
Speaker 3: That, in part is what I'm evaluating, But I'm also

610
00:32:26,000 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 3: wanting to evaluate the firearms discharge evidence, the trajectory of

611
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:36,440
Speaker 3: the bullets, how his hand, his right hand could be

612
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:41,720
Speaker 3: an intermediary target in between a shot from his must

613
00:32:41,720 --> 00:32:45,400
Speaker 3: have been his left hand into his right temple, which is.

614
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,440
Speaker 4: A very very awkward position to be in.

615
00:32:48,840 --> 00:32:53,600
Speaker 3: Does his right hand demonstrate firearms discharge evidence on the

616
00:32:53,640 --> 00:32:56,360
Speaker 3: back of it, or does it demonstrate it on the

617
00:32:56,440 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: palm as if he's in a defensive posture. There's some

618
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,320
Speaker 3: as of complexity that if I'm assessing this case if

619
00:33:03,360 --> 00:33:06,280
Speaker 3: I were the crime scene investigator, I would be looking

620
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:10,320
Speaker 3: for all of this type of evidence at the scene

621
00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 3: as well as consulting with the pathologist in terms of Okay,

622
00:33:15,800 --> 00:33:20,200
Speaker 3: these two bullets, what did each bullet strike? How is

623
00:33:20,240 --> 00:33:25,000
Speaker 3: that going to impact the victim's ability to remain conscious,

624
00:33:25,120 --> 00:33:28,680
Speaker 3: to remain having motor skills in order to be able

625
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,240
Speaker 3: to operate the firearm a second time?

626
00:33:31,520 --> 00:33:33,160
Speaker 1: What do you want to start with.

627
00:33:33,320 --> 00:33:36,560
Speaker 2: There's a debate on the velocity of the bullet, and

628
00:33:36,600 --> 00:33:40,440
Speaker 2: then there's also information about the powder marks. Those are

629
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,680
Speaker 2: kind of the two really big, I think, really big

630
00:33:42,720 --> 00:33:45,440
Speaker 2: debates here. So which one do you prefer to hear first?

631
00:33:45,760 --> 00:33:48,840
Speaker 4: Well, first, I know you gave me a very general

632
00:33:49,240 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 4: statement as to he was struck three times, but could

633
00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 4: you be more specific about where he is struck with

634
00:33:55,440 --> 00:33:56,040
Speaker 4: the bullets?

635
00:33:56,480 --> 00:33:58,920
Speaker 2: Okay, so the positioning of the gun it is, let's

636
00:33:58,960 --> 00:34:02,480
Speaker 2: talk about that. There's a doctor who gets on the

637
00:34:02,520 --> 00:34:07,000
Speaker 2: stand for the state. He specializes in nervous and mental diseases,

638
00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:11,000
Speaker 2: and he tells the court that he believes the second

639
00:34:11,080 --> 00:34:14,680
Speaker 2: bullet could not have been fired by Harry. So this

640
00:34:14,719 --> 00:34:19,839
Speaker 2: is for the prosecutor because the first bullet, which penetrated

641
00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,600
Speaker 2: the bone near the right ear. Remained in the bone

642
00:34:23,880 --> 00:34:30,800
Speaker 2: would have produced instant unconsciousness and would have destroyed nerve coordination.

643
00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:34,200
Speaker 2: So he was completely disabled after that first shot that

644
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:38,360
Speaker 2: went through his hand into the bone near his right ear.

645
00:34:38,719 --> 00:34:41,319
Speaker 3: The first concern that I have is how is he

646
00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 3: sequencing the shots? How is he determining the first shot

647
00:34:44,360 --> 00:34:45,319
Speaker 3: versus the second shot?

648
00:34:45,520 --> 00:34:45,759
Speaker 4: Right?

649
00:34:45,840 --> 00:34:48,279
Speaker 3: Whether or not you have that information, I don't know,

650
00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 3: But this is where Okay, so you have a bullet

651
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:56,080
Speaker 3: that's entering by his right ear and then embeds in

652
00:34:56,160 --> 00:34:59,120
Speaker 3: the bone, probably on the opposite side of the skull.

653
00:34:59,160 --> 00:35:03,640
Speaker 3: It's penetrating through very significant aspects of the brain that

654
00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:08,120
Speaker 3: is required for just general consciousness as well as the

655
00:35:08,160 --> 00:35:11,440
Speaker 3: ability to interact with the environment and censory all this

656
00:35:11,480 --> 00:35:16,560
Speaker 3: stuff versus this other bullet. Is this a superficial wound.

657
00:35:16,719 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 3: Does it go into let's say, maybe just passes through

658
00:35:20,640 --> 00:35:22,360
Speaker 3: just a very small portion of the brain.

659
00:35:22,520 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 4: Does it even hit the brain?

660
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:23,960
Speaker 3: You know?

661
00:35:24,000 --> 00:35:25,120
Speaker 4: That's what I want to know.

662
00:35:25,360 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 3: And if that's the case, that I would say, well,

663
00:35:27,680 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 3: there's a chance that that was the actual first shot.

664
00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:33,480
Speaker 4: And then the second shot was the one that was effective.

665
00:35:33,760 --> 00:35:36,279
Speaker 2: I think everybody believes the first shot was the one

666
00:35:36,280 --> 00:35:38,520
Speaker 2: that went through the hand, because it sounds like the

667
00:35:38,560 --> 00:35:41,359
Speaker 2: second shot they believe was the kill shot, the shot

668
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:43,080
Speaker 2: that killed them in the temple.

669
00:35:43,280 --> 00:35:45,760
Speaker 3: Well, but this is the prosecutor's theory, and the reason

670
00:35:45,760 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 3: they're saying the one that passes through the hand is

671
00:35:48,040 --> 00:35:50,160
Speaker 3: the first shot is because he is aware that he's

672
00:35:50,160 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 3: about to be shot and he's assuming a defensive posture.

673
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:53,040
Speaker 2: Right.

674
00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 3: You know, my role in this type of case is is, Okay,

675
00:35:56,600 --> 00:35:59,280
Speaker 3: that's what the prosecutor believes, then he got the defense.

676
00:35:59,320 --> 00:36:00,959
Speaker 4: But what is the evident actually say?

677
00:36:01,040 --> 00:36:02,919
Speaker 3: What can I conclude from the evidence so I could

678
00:36:02,960 --> 00:36:05,920
Speaker 3: guide you know that the try or a fact.

679
00:36:05,640 --> 00:36:08,240
Speaker 4: In terms of this is what the evidence actually says.

680
00:36:08,760 --> 00:36:12,280
Speaker 2: Let's try to talk about the gunpowder because maybe that'll help. Okay,

681
00:36:12,320 --> 00:36:15,600
Speaker 2: So the prosecution and the defense experts contradict each other

682
00:36:15,640 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 2: about the meaning of the powder marks that were left

683
00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:18,880
Speaker 2: on Harry's temple.

684
00:36:18,920 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 1: So there are powder marks left.

685
00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 2: We don't have images or the marks or the descriptions,

686
00:36:23,080 --> 00:36:26,080
Speaker 2: but we know that the experts for the DA is

687
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:29,040
Speaker 2: saying that the shooter was standing at a certain distance

688
00:36:29,680 --> 00:36:34,080
Speaker 2: from Harry's head, and of course the defense determines that

689
00:36:34,120 --> 00:36:36,799
Speaker 2: the powder burns were actually from the muzzle of a

690
00:36:36,840 --> 00:36:40,759
Speaker 2: firearm that was held by Harry himself. And there's a

691
00:36:40,800 --> 00:36:44,080
Speaker 2: ballistics expert who says that he's conducted his own experiments

692
00:36:44,360 --> 00:36:46,880
Speaker 2: and he said decided the spread of powder marks on

693
00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:50,720
Speaker 2: a target was greater at two inches than at eight inches.

694
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,080
Speaker 2: So the powder marks, to this defense expert, look to

695
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 2: be one that represents a gun that's much closer to

696
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,120
Speaker 2: Harry's temple than the prosecution is saying the powder marks

697
00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,000
Speaker 2: would represent from somebody standing further away.

698
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:04,920
Speaker 1: Does that sound right?

699
00:37:05,280 --> 00:37:10,200
Speaker 3: Well, what they're doing is a firearms distance determination, and

700
00:37:10,560 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 3: we frequently would do these types of tests. And the

701
00:37:15,120 --> 00:37:17,960
Speaker 3: way that this test is conducted is with the actual

702
00:37:18,040 --> 00:37:21,840
Speaker 3: gun and with the same type of ammunition used. The

703
00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:27,640
Speaker 3: firearms examiner has targets, typically fabric targets that are on cardboard,

704
00:37:27,840 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 3: and then will fire the gun at set distances, let's say,

705
00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 3: from twenty four inches to eighteen inches to twelve inches,

706
00:37:35,719 --> 00:37:40,359
Speaker 3: and the powder and the gases that are discharged when

707
00:37:40,680 --> 00:37:44,480
Speaker 3: the firearm is used as you get closer, you know,

708
00:37:44,840 --> 00:37:48,319
Speaker 3: think about this firearm's discharge like a sneeze. If you

709
00:37:48,360 --> 00:37:51,799
Speaker 3: hold your hand out twenty four inches away and you sneeze,

710
00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 3: you might get, you know, a drop litter two on

711
00:37:53,800 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 3: your hand. But as your hand gets closer to your

712
00:37:57,160 --> 00:37:59,319
Speaker 3: mouth and your nose, you get a point to where

713
00:37:59,320 --> 00:38:01,640
Speaker 3: it becomes much more concentrated. You get a lot more

714
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:05,280
Speaker 3: stuff being deposited on your hand. Well, that's in general

715
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,080
Speaker 3: the way that firearms discharge works, and so the closer

716
00:38:09,160 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 3: the gun is to the target, generally more of the

717
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:17,560
Speaker 3: unburnt and partially burnt gunpowder particles in addition to the

718
00:38:17,600 --> 00:38:21,280
Speaker 3: gases are being deposited on the target, and they become

719
00:38:21,360 --> 00:38:24,680
Speaker 3: much more concentrated up until you get to a point

720
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,439
Speaker 3: where you're at near contact or contact where the gun

721
00:38:27,520 --> 00:38:30,879
Speaker 3: is being pressed into the target, and then now all

722
00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,560
Speaker 3: of the firearms discharge is going into the wound itself.

723
00:38:35,239 --> 00:38:38,600
Speaker 3: Most of the time with suicides, it's contact or near

724
00:38:38,719 --> 00:38:44,040
Speaker 3: contact shots versus a shot from twelve inches away or

725
00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 3: obviously much further.

726
00:38:45,400 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 4: Becomes almost impossible to do.

727
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:53,040
Speaker 3: So that defense expert saying that the powder particles are

728
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:58,439
Speaker 3: becoming more diffuse the closer the gun gets. That might

729
00:38:58,560 --> 00:39:01,680
Speaker 3: be a characteristic of that particular making model a gun

730
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:07,200
Speaker 3: and ammunition, but that also is an unusual occurrence relative

731
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,600
Speaker 3: to how most guns behave in terms of how the

732
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:14,800
Speaker 3: powder particles, they will become much more concentrated.

733
00:39:14,200 --> 00:39:16,920
Speaker 4: The closer the muzzle of the gun gets to the target.

734
00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:18,279
Speaker 1: So what does that all say?

735
00:39:20,400 --> 00:39:23,800
Speaker 3: Well, well, right now, this is part of the problem

736
00:39:24,000 --> 00:39:26,440
Speaker 3: you know, that I would have, is that you have

737
00:39:26,600 --> 00:39:30,560
Speaker 3: on the stand competing experts. Right, they're each giving opinions

738
00:39:30,760 --> 00:39:34,560
Speaker 3: the distance determination. All that's doing is putting the gun

739
00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:38,440
Speaker 3: close to Harry's head. Yeah, I mean the right hand

740
00:39:38,480 --> 00:39:42,560
Speaker 3: for me is absolutely critical in this case. How is

741
00:39:42,640 --> 00:39:46,759
Speaker 3: Harry's hand an intermediate target on the right side of

742
00:39:46,800 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 3: his head, his right hand on the right side of

743
00:39:48,800 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 3: his head, and he's shooting himself in the right side

744
00:39:51,320 --> 00:39:52,880
Speaker 3: of the head. He has to be doing it with

745
00:39:52,920 --> 00:39:55,279
Speaker 3: his left hand. Why is he doing that? That is

746
00:39:55,560 --> 00:39:59,080
Speaker 3: highly unusual. I'm not saying it's impossible, but I need

747
00:39:59,120 --> 00:40:01,840
Speaker 3: to see that in order to say, okay, there's a

748
00:40:01,880 --> 00:40:03,520
Speaker 3: possibility he did to do this.

749
00:40:04,080 --> 00:40:05,520
Speaker 4: But it really is a.

750
00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:09,520
Speaker 3: Red flag from Harry having committed suicide with what I

751
00:40:09,640 --> 00:40:11,960
Speaker 3: understand is going on at this point in time.

752
00:40:12,400 --> 00:40:15,720
Speaker 2: Does it make a difference to you that Harry Barty

753
00:40:16,080 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 2: was left handed?

754
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:23,000
Speaker 3: Well, it makes a difference in that typically they're shooting

755
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,360
Speaker 3: themselves in the temple, they do use their strong hand

756
00:40:26,640 --> 00:40:28,839
Speaker 3: most of the time, not all the time. And when

757
00:40:28,880 --> 00:40:31,880
Speaker 3: they use their strong hand, they shoot themselves on the

758
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,279
Speaker 3: same side of their body, on the same side of

759
00:40:35,320 --> 00:40:38,040
Speaker 3: their head. With their strong hand, there's no reason to

760
00:40:38,120 --> 00:40:41,320
Speaker 3: try to wrap the gun around to the other side.

761
00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:43,800
Speaker 4: That is highly unusual.

762
00:40:43,960 --> 00:40:46,880
Speaker 3: I think that's why the investigators, when they're looking at

763
00:40:46,960 --> 00:40:50,759
Speaker 3: this case very quickly, are going, this isn't suicide, this

764
00:40:50,840 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 3: is homicide.

765
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:55,760
Speaker 2: One of the big debates with this case was whether

766
00:40:55,920 --> 00:41:00,839
Speaker 2: the hand would actually slow a bullet down enough that

767
00:41:01,080 --> 00:41:03,239
Speaker 2: where he is hit, which they're saying is by the

768
00:41:03,320 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: right ear in the head, by the right ear, if

769
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:09,359
Speaker 2: the bullet would be slowed down enough in order to

770
00:41:09,920 --> 00:41:13,640
Speaker 2: stop this instant unconsciousness that they're referring to, and then

771
00:41:13,680 --> 00:41:16,960
Speaker 2: he could get a second shot in because the defense

772
00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 2: said that he could have put his hand up during

773
00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,720
Speaker 2: that first shot. If we're believing the sequence, everybody agrees

774
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:25,400
Speaker 2: that this is the sequence. I know we don't, but

775
00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:28,680
Speaker 2: everybody agrees the sequence. Both sides say first shot went

776
00:41:28,719 --> 00:41:30,520
Speaker 2: through the hand. The second shot was the shot that

777
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:31,480
Speaker 2: ultimately killed him.

778
00:41:31,480 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: In the Temple.

779
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,360
Speaker 2: The defense is saying that when he tried to shoot

780
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,759
Speaker 2: himself the first time, his hand might have flinched, and

781
00:41:39,800 --> 00:41:41,920
Speaker 2: that's how he ended up with a bullet in his hand,

782
00:41:42,120 --> 00:41:46,080
Speaker 2: not a defensive stance at all. And then that bullet

783
00:41:46,320 --> 00:41:49,200
Speaker 2: was slowed down enough so that he wasn't going immediately

784
00:41:49,239 --> 00:41:51,160
Speaker 2: unconscious and he could do the second shot.

785
00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:52,960
Speaker 1: So that's where the defense stands.

786
00:41:53,480 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, well, you know, and the firearms discharge evidence on

787
00:41:55,920 --> 00:41:58,399
Speaker 3: his hand is also critical because his hand is going

788
00:41:58,400 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 3: to be closer to the gun than his head and

789
00:42:01,520 --> 00:42:05,080
Speaker 3: is an intermediate target. It's going to shadow that particular

790
00:42:05,160 --> 00:42:07,759
Speaker 3: shot in terms of you're not going to see as

791
00:42:07,840 --> 00:42:12,920
Speaker 3: much if any gunpowder or gases being deposited around his ear.

792
00:42:13,680 --> 00:42:15,560
Speaker 3: It's all going to be on his hand, now, is

793
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:17,279
Speaker 3: it on the palm of his hand? Is on the

794
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:17,960
Speaker 3: back side.

795
00:42:17,800 --> 00:42:20,920
Speaker 1: Of his hand, backside, as far as I know, backside?

796
00:42:21,000 --> 00:42:21,400
Speaker 4: Okay.

797
00:42:21,680 --> 00:42:24,040
Speaker 3: Did they do a distance determination and did they render

798
00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:26,600
Speaker 3: an opinion as to how far the muzzle was from

799
00:42:26,640 --> 00:42:28,400
Speaker 3: the backside of his head for that shot?

800
00:42:28,880 --> 00:42:31,480
Speaker 2: No, there was some What they were saying was velocity

801
00:42:31,680 --> 00:42:35,680
Speaker 2: determination of the velocity of the bullets, which one expert

802
00:42:35,719 --> 00:42:39,000
Speaker 2: said was a seven percent reduction of speed of the bullet.

803
00:42:39,080 --> 00:42:41,160
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how you would get seven percent reduction

804
00:42:41,239 --> 00:42:42,880
Speaker 2: of speed through the bullet through the hand.

805
00:42:43,320 --> 00:42:44,239
Speaker 1: But that again is.

806
00:42:44,200 --> 00:42:48,120
Speaker 2: The state saying, yeah, it's impossible. If he had shot himself,

807
00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:50,880
Speaker 2: he would have never been able to been awake enough.

808
00:42:50,640 --> 00:42:51,720
Speaker 1: To do a second shot.

809
00:42:52,040 --> 00:42:56,200
Speaker 3: Under these circumstances. I could care less about the velocity

810
00:42:56,239 --> 00:42:58,560
Speaker 3: of the bullet. It's going to be you know, what

811
00:42:58,600 --> 00:43:01,640
Speaker 3: did the pathologist find, because even if the bullet is

812
00:43:01,680 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 3: slowed down, you know, you got muzzle velocity of this

813
00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:06,640
Speaker 3: bullet coming out at the end of the barrel, and

814
00:43:06,800 --> 00:43:09,160
Speaker 3: then let's say it does pass through his hand, but

815
00:43:09,239 --> 00:43:12,759
Speaker 3: if it's still penetrating through his skull and going through

816
00:43:12,800 --> 00:43:15,960
Speaker 3: his brain, and even though it's at a slower velocity

817
00:43:15,960 --> 00:43:19,880
Speaker 3: than muzzle velocity, his brain is still being fatally injured.

818
00:43:20,320 --> 00:43:23,239
Speaker 3: Doesn't matter how fast the bullet's going, those structures are

819
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:27,080
Speaker 3: still being damaged. And with thirty eights, you know, there

820
00:43:27,239 --> 00:43:32,239
Speaker 3: is different wounding characteristics from lower velocity rounds than high

821
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 3: velocity rounds. But this is typically when you start getting

822
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:40,280
Speaker 3: into fifteen hundred, two thousand feet per second like rifle rounds,

823
00:43:40,360 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 3: where now you have high velocity, high energy being put

824
00:43:43,600 --> 00:43:46,560
Speaker 3: through the organ, and you get this huge are what's

825
00:43:46,600 --> 00:43:50,680
Speaker 3: called temporary cavitation. If the tissue is an expanding type tissue,

826
00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 3: that bullet passes through so fast that that tissue moves

827
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:58,000
Speaker 3: out of the way, and that can disrupt a greater

828
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:02,440
Speaker 3: amount of tissue from that high velocity than just the

829
00:44:02,440 --> 00:44:05,640
Speaker 3: wound path itself, So it can be more damaging. But

830
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:09,400
Speaker 3: when you're starting to talk about a bullet passing through

831
00:44:09,840 --> 00:44:14,719
Speaker 3: fundamental structures of the brain, necessary for low emotion, necessary

832
00:44:14,719 --> 00:44:19,160
Speaker 3: for consciousness, necessary to stain sustain life, it doesn't matter

833
00:44:19,200 --> 00:44:20,600
Speaker 3: how fast the bullet's going.

834
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:21,200
Speaker 1: I agree.

835
00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:23,440
Speaker 2: So when we're putting all this together, based on the

836
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:27,799
Speaker 2: information that we have, we have an unhappy man, potentially

837
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:30,520
Speaker 2: an unhappy wife, even though there are people who say

838
00:44:30,560 --> 00:44:32,400
Speaker 2: they seem to have a really good marriage. And the

839
00:44:32,520 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 2: janitor says that everything was fine before he left, but

840
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 2: when he told Harry the information, Harry broke down.

841
00:44:39,880 --> 00:44:40,920
Speaker 1: Grace comforted him.

842
00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:44,120
Speaker 2: Everything seemed okay when he left, so there was no

843
00:44:44,200 --> 00:44:47,920
Speaker 2: reason for the janitor to believe anything occurred after he

844
00:44:47,960 --> 00:44:51,879
Speaker 2: closed the door. But what happened in the inconsistency with

845
00:44:52,040 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 2: what order the shots happened, and how this left handed

846
00:44:55,440 --> 00:44:58,000
Speaker 2: man did just not put a gun to his left temple.

847
00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:00,239
Speaker 2: And I know we talk about this, and I don't

848
00:45:00,280 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: know where you stand on this, but how much does

849
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 2: common sense play into evidence? Because to me, if this

850
00:45:05,640 --> 00:45:07,400
Speaker 2: is someone who is going to take his own life,

851
00:45:07,440 --> 00:45:10,439
Speaker 2: wouldn't he make it easy on himself. It doesn't line

852
00:45:10,480 --> 00:45:12,880
Speaker 2: up to me that a left handed person would do

853
00:45:13,040 --> 00:45:15,600
Speaker 2: anything other than the easiest thing.

854
00:45:15,440 --> 00:45:15,920
Speaker 1: With a gun.

855
00:45:16,600 --> 00:45:19,920
Speaker 3: Right well, this being a suicide with a left handed

856
00:45:19,920 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 3: person shooting himself in the right side of his head

857
00:45:23,400 --> 00:45:27,960
Speaker 3: through his right hand. I do believe the investigators back

858
00:45:28,400 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 3: in the nineteen twenties on this case, we're using common sense.

859
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:34,759
Speaker 4: They're going, no, that's not how this works. You know,

860
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:36,360
Speaker 4: that is very unusual.

861
00:45:36,640 --> 00:45:40,960
Speaker 3: And this is more in line with grace coming up

862
00:45:41,000 --> 00:45:43,200
Speaker 3: with the gun. We don't know where his hand. His

863
00:45:43,320 --> 00:45:46,480
Speaker 3: right hand is out in space. Is he just laying

864
00:45:46,560 --> 00:45:48,920
Speaker 3: there and holding his head and the bullet passes through

865
00:45:49,320 --> 00:45:52,040
Speaker 3: his hand and immediately into a skull or is it

866
00:45:52,080 --> 00:45:54,680
Speaker 3: more of a defensive posture. But if that is the

867
00:45:54,719 --> 00:45:58,040
Speaker 3: first shot and he's incapacitated, and then the second shot

868
00:45:58,120 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 3: is a coup de gras shot to his right temple.

869
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:04,560
Speaker 4: You know, that is more in line with a.

870
00:46:04,560 --> 00:46:07,880
Speaker 3: Homicide in terms of the types that the type of wounding,

871
00:46:07,880 --> 00:46:11,879
Speaker 3: the type of physical evidence than in suicide. So much

872
00:46:11,920 --> 00:46:15,480
Speaker 3: so you know, for me, with the information that you've presented,

873
00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,359
Speaker 3: I agree with the original investigators right now, this is

874
00:46:19,520 --> 00:46:21,280
Speaker 3: this is smacking of homicide.

875
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:23,680
Speaker 4: And Grace is the only one in the house.

876
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:25,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, we don't know.

877
00:46:25,120 --> 00:46:28,120
Speaker 4: Exactly why she would kill Harry, but it looks like

878
00:46:28,160 --> 00:46:28,600
Speaker 4: she did.

879
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:29,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, and you don't have to.

880
00:46:29,760 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 2: I mean, I have a DA friend of mine who says, well,

881
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:33,120
Speaker 2: jury's always want a motive.

882
00:46:33,520 --> 00:46:34,640
Speaker 1: You can't always give it to him.

883
00:46:35,000 --> 00:46:36,760
Speaker 2: And you know, they want to be told a story

884
00:46:36,920 --> 00:46:38,880
Speaker 2: with an ending, and they want to understand why.

885
00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:41,200
Speaker 1: It's just like anybody who listens to Drew crime. We

886
00:46:41,239 --> 00:46:43,080
Speaker 1: want to know why these things happen.

887
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 4: Yeah, no, no, that's that is true.

888
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:48,680
Speaker 3: You know, that's just part of when a DA is

889
00:46:48,680 --> 00:46:52,319
Speaker 3: evaluating the case. They of course would love to be

890
00:46:52,400 --> 00:46:56,080
Speaker 3: able to show strong motive, you know, just it's and

891
00:46:56,400 --> 00:46:58,000
Speaker 3: to be able to put that in front of the jury.

892
00:46:58,440 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 3: But if the evidence is overwhelming and you have no motive,

893
00:47:02,560 --> 00:47:04,520
Speaker 3: then the DA can still move forward and convince a

894
00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:05,840
Speaker 3: jury well.

895
00:47:05,680 --> 00:47:08,239
Speaker 2: This didn't work in this case. The DA could not

896
00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:11,040
Speaker 2: convince the jury. They were out for about an hour.

897
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:14,160
Speaker 2: Grace had taken the stand and had been composed as

898
00:47:14,400 --> 00:47:15,640
Speaker 2: one might expect.

899
00:47:15,400 --> 00:47:17,280
Speaker 1: And she just said, I don't understand why it happened.

900
00:47:17,280 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 2: I couldn't understand why he would ever do this, And

901
00:47:20,400 --> 00:47:24,200
Speaker 2: they were confused by the ballistics evidence and these dueling

902
00:47:24,239 --> 00:47:26,520
Speaker 2: we talk about all the time, dueling experts, who do

903
00:47:26,560 --> 00:47:30,520
Speaker 2: we believe men and white coats. And they acquitted her.

904
00:47:30,920 --> 00:47:33,840
Speaker 2: She walks out and sort of vanishes. It looks like

905
00:47:33,880 --> 00:47:36,640
Speaker 2: she got remarried and she died in nineteen fifty nine,

906
00:47:37,239 --> 00:47:39,799
Speaker 2: which is thirty five years after she was acquitted. But

907
00:47:39,960 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 2: they're just was not for the jury and not enough

908
00:47:42,840 --> 00:47:43,800
Speaker 2: convincing evidence.

909
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, you know, and I can see where a jury

910
00:47:47,320 --> 00:47:52,320
Speaker 3: could be confused. And in some ways she's a sympathetic

911
00:47:52,560 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 3: persona and I can imagine, especially back in the nineteen twenties,

912
00:47:56,880 --> 00:47:59,440
Speaker 3: you know, the idea of a woman committing this type

913
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:03,400
Speaker 3: of crime was probably foreign to most people. Even today.

914
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,360
Speaker 3: You know, that's usually it's a surprise where you go, oh, really,

915
00:48:07,560 --> 00:48:11,439
Speaker 3: you know, my suspect is a woman, But it does happen. Yeah,

916
00:48:11,480 --> 00:48:14,320
Speaker 3: women are very capable of committing this type of crime,

917
00:48:14,360 --> 00:48:17,160
Speaker 3: and sometimes you don't know why they commit this kind

918
00:48:17,200 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 3: of crime.

919
00:48:17,800 --> 00:48:19,760
Speaker 2: And one more thing I thought that was really interesting

920
00:48:19,840 --> 00:48:22,200
Speaker 2: is remember Grace was a big part of the artist

921
00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 2: community in San Francisco. She decides on behalf of the defense,

922
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:31,240
Speaker 2: of course, to some of her friends who are artists,

923
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:35,960
Speaker 2: to mock up images showing every possible variety of posture

924
00:48:35,960 --> 00:48:38,680
Speaker 2: in which a man might take his own life, and

925
00:48:39,000 --> 00:48:43,200
Speaker 2: the judge lets it in, and all the jury sees

926
00:48:43,280 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 2: these illustrations of the various ways that Harry could have

927
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,320
Speaker 2: taken his own life. And you know, she is described

928
00:48:49,360 --> 00:48:54,680
Speaker 2: as this mysterious, emotionless beautiful woman in this courtroom, but

929
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 2: it sounds like that actually might have influenced the jury

930
00:48:58,640 --> 00:49:02,120
Speaker 2: these sketches. So I feel like the same way you did,

931
00:49:02,160 --> 00:49:04,320
Speaker 2: which is why at the beginning of this episode I said,

932
00:49:04,680 --> 00:49:06,480
Speaker 2: I think there are people who did it, there wasn't

933
00:49:06,600 --> 00:49:09,200
Speaker 2: enough to prove it, and it just does not to

934
00:49:09,320 --> 00:49:13,759
Speaker 2: me make much sense the way that the defense had

935
00:49:13,800 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 2: positioned this at all.

936
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:18,560
Speaker 3: Now, and I agree with that assessment. You know, at

937
00:49:18,680 --> 00:49:22,879
Speaker 3: least the verbal description of how Harry was shot is

938
00:49:23,160 --> 00:49:26,399
Speaker 3: very much more in line with what I would see

939
00:49:26,440 --> 00:49:29,719
Speaker 3: and expect from a homicide than from suicide.

940
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 2: Yep, well, boy, what a case, Grace Brody, someone else

941
00:49:34,000 --> 00:49:36,600
Speaker 2: we think might have gotten away with murder. We encounter

942
00:49:36,680 --> 00:49:39,560
Speaker 2: a lot of those on buried bones, and I think

943
00:49:39,640 --> 00:49:43,520
Speaker 2: that even though the end result is not satisfying.

944
00:49:42,880 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 1: The journey that you and I take is usually.

945
00:49:45,640 --> 00:49:48,719
Speaker 2: A very satisfying one because we learn more and more

946
00:49:48,840 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 2: about human behavior and about criminals and how they get

947
00:49:52,320 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 2: away with things, and.

948
00:49:53,520 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: All of that.

949
00:49:54,320 --> 00:49:57,400
Speaker 2: I think helps people who listen to this show understand

950
00:49:57,719 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 2: later on in life why these things happen reverberate through history, no,

951
00:50:01,880 --> 00:50:02,279
Speaker 2: for sure.

952
00:50:02,320 --> 00:50:07,319
Speaker 3: But also this is part of building an encyclopedia of

953
00:50:07,480 --> 00:50:08,719
Speaker 3: knowledge of cases.

954
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:09,480
Speaker 4: You know.

955
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,080
Speaker 3: That's what I did during the course of my career,

956
00:50:12,480 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 3: so you know, every single case I went out on

957
00:50:16,280 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 3: I learned from and that after thirty years allows me

958
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 3: to be able to maybe assess a case with a

959
00:50:23,000 --> 00:50:26,480
Speaker 3: level of expertise better than a layperson or somebody that

960
00:50:26,600 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 3: is just starting out in their career.

961
00:50:28,440 --> 00:50:28,720
Speaker 1: Yep.

962
00:50:31,360 --> 00:50:33,440
Speaker 2: Well, next week we'll have another case for you to

963
00:50:33,640 --> 00:50:34,759
Speaker 2: assess expertly.

964
00:50:34,880 --> 00:50:37,720
Speaker 4: Polholes, I will give it my best shot.

965
00:50:38,719 --> 00:50:46,880
Speaker 2: Good thanks, This has been an exactly right production.

966
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 3: For our sources and show notes go to exactly Rightmedia

967
00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,680
Speaker 3: dot com slash Buried Bones Sources.

968
00:50:52,920 --> 00:50:55,279
Speaker 1: Our senior producer is Alexis Emirosi.

969
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:58,400
Speaker 3: Research by Maren mcclashan and Kate Winkler Dawson.

970
00:50:58,600 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 1: Our mixing engineer is Ryo Baum.

971
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,440
Speaker 4: Our theme song is by Tom Bryfogel.

972
00:51:03,680 --> 00:51:05,720
Speaker 1: Our artwork is by Vanessa Lilac.

973
00:51:05,960 --> 00:51:10,120
Speaker 3: Executive produced by Karen Kilgarriff, Georgia hard Stark, and Danielle Kramer.

974
00:51:10,360 --> 00:51:13,759
Speaker 2: You can follow Buried Bones on Instagram and Facebook at

975
00:51:13,840 --> 00:51:15,000
Speaker 2: Baried Bones Pod.

976
00:51:15,440 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 3: Kate's most recent book, All That Is Wicked, a Gilded

977
00:51:18,040 --> 00:51:20,040
Speaker 3: Age story of murder and the race to decode the

978
00:51:20,040 --> 00:51:22,239
Speaker 3: criminal mind, is available now, and

979
00:51:22,400 --> 00:51:26,680
Speaker 2: Paul's best selling memoir Unmasked, My life Solving America's Cold

980
00:51:26,719 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: Cases is also available now