1 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:11,240 Speaker 1: Millionaire pedophile jeff Epstein. You may think for a moment 2 00:00:11,280 --> 00:00:15,080 Speaker 1: it's just some pervy millionaire up in New York City jailhouse. 3 00:00:16,360 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: That's not the end of the story. What matters is 4 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:23,599 Speaker 1: what really happened. If this is a fault in Ourn't 5 00:00:23,640 --> 00:00:27,880 Speaker 1: justice system, if anything surreptitious, the public and law enforcement 6 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: needs to note there are too many circumstantial facts, too 7 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:43,639 Speaker 1: many coinkie inks coincidences surrounding Epstein's death, crime stories with 8 00:00:43,720 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace, the theories that are out there. One of 9 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,560 Speaker 1: them is that it was another inmate who may have 10 00:00:49,640 --> 00:00:53,400 Speaker 1: killed Jeffrey Epstein. Come on, you don't believe that he 11 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 1: was found hanging in his cell. He had tried to 12 00:00:56,640 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 1: commit suicide before that. He was a very wealthy man 13 00:00:59,760 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: who was looking at a lifetime in prison. You know, 14 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,880 Speaker 1: sometimes the cigars gets a cigar. So Epstein's taken off 15 00:01:06,880 --> 00:01:10,759 Speaker 1: suicide watch the day before he kills himself. His roommate 16 00:01:11,040 --> 00:01:15,040 Speaker 1: is removed from the cell, the cameras on his tear 17 00:01:15,160 --> 00:01:19,480 Speaker 1: are not working, the guards fell asleep. It seems almost 18 00:01:19,520 --> 00:01:23,039 Speaker 1: impossible to think all of those things could happen in 19 00:01:23,080 --> 00:01:26,319 Speaker 1: that way. It does, and that's what makes this so shocking. 20 00:01:26,440 --> 00:01:29,000 Speaker 1: I mean, this is a failure on multiple levels. Do 21 00:01:29,040 --> 00:01:31,440 Speaker 1: you think there's any way that Jeffrey Epstein could have 22 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:36,000 Speaker 1: been murdered? Absolutely, unequivocally not. Okay, So what is the 23 00:01:36,000 --> 00:01:45,559 Speaker 1: truth If Epstein, the millionaire perv pedophile, was murdered, who, what, where? Why? When? 24 00:01:45,959 --> 00:01:49,280 Speaker 1: If he committed suicide, same questions. I mean, see, Grace, 25 00:01:49,440 --> 00:01:51,560 Speaker 1: this is crime stories. Thank you for being with us, 26 00:01:51,920 --> 00:01:54,000 Speaker 1: with me a man, We've all wanted to talk to. 27 00:01:54,640 --> 00:02:01,040 Speaker 1: Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, Mark Furnish, also with me, Emily Saul, 28 00:02:01,400 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: New York Post journalist Bruce Johnson, owner ESP Investigations, Master 29 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,320 Speaker 1: Sergeant Region one Crimes in Commander, Chicago Metro. Well, that 30 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,240 Speaker 1: says it all. There's no lack of business there. Justice 31 00:02:13,240 --> 00:02:16,560 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan right now, forensic expert, Professor Forensics, Jacksonville State 32 00:02:16,639 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 1: University and author of Blood Beneath My Feet, and doctor 33 00:02:21,440 --> 00:02:28,000 Speaker 1: Kendall Crown's deputy medical examiner out of Travis County. That's Austin. First, 34 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:30,679 Speaker 1: before we kick it off, I want you to hear this. 35 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,799 Speaker 1: The key reason doctor Bonden thinks Jeffrey Epstein's death might 36 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,400 Speaker 1: be a homicide is because of the unusual fractures he 37 00:02:38,440 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: saw in Epstein's neck. There were fractures of the left, 38 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:48,519 Speaker 1: the right thyroid cartilage, and the left hyoid bone. This 39 00:02:48,600 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: is an autopsy photo of Epstein's broken hyoid bone, a 40 00:02:52,639 --> 00:02:55,200 Speaker 1: U shaped bone that sits under the jaw. The part 41 00:02:55,200 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: of the tongue attaches to the thyroid cartilage sits at 42 00:02:58,720 --> 00:03:01,960 Speaker 1: the front of the neck. I have never seen three 43 00:03:02,040 --> 00:03:06,799 Speaker 1: fractures like this in a suicidal hanging. Sometimes there is 44 00:03:06,800 --> 00:03:09,800 Speaker 1: a fracture of the higher bone or a fracture of 45 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,519 Speaker 1: the thyroid cartilage, not three, very unusual to have two 46 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:19,280 Speaker 1: and not three. And going over over thousand jail hangings 47 00:03:19,360 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 1: suicides in the New York City State prisons of the 48 00:03:22,080 --> 00:03:26,200 Speaker 1: pist forty fifty years, no one had three fractures. You 49 00:03:26,280 --> 00:03:30,480 Speaker 1: were hearing our friends over at CBS sixty minutes, Sharon Alfonse, 50 00:03:31,440 --> 00:03:35,800 Speaker 1: Mark Furnish, Jeffrey Epstein, criminal defense lawyer. You know, I 51 00:03:35,800 --> 00:03:37,960 Speaker 1: really don't know where to start with you. Mark. First 52 00:03:38,000 --> 00:03:41,080 Speaker 1: of all, it's not about you, it's about him. I mean, 53 00:03:41,160 --> 00:03:43,680 Speaker 1: it's very hard for me not to just lay into 54 00:03:43,720 --> 00:03:46,920 Speaker 1: you because I do believe Epstein was This is certainly 55 00:03:46,960 --> 00:03:49,480 Speaker 1: putting perfume on the pig having sex with underaged girls. 56 00:03:49,480 --> 00:03:53,400 Speaker 1: That's called trime molestation. But what I'm focusing on right 57 00:03:53,440 --> 00:03:59,360 Speaker 1: now is the possibility that he was murdered behind bars. 58 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:04,040 Speaker 1: What are your observations, Well, like I said yesterday, nothing 59 00:04:04,080 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: about mister Epstein's prosecution or his death in federal custody 60 00:04:08,600 --> 00:04:13,960 Speaker 1: surprises me or could surprise me at this point. And 61 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:16,159 Speaker 1: I don't think that we're ever going to learn what 62 00:04:16,320 --> 00:04:18,400 Speaker 1: really happened in there because I don't think that there's 63 00:04:18,440 --> 00:04:22,960 Speaker 1: any real incentive to find out. And I think that wooa, whoa, whoa, whoa, 64 00:04:23,279 --> 00:04:26,800 Speaker 1: wait a, man it furnish. I mean, hold on, you 65 00:04:26,960 --> 00:04:29,520 Speaker 1: just said so many important things in those two couple 66 00:04:29,560 --> 00:04:32,120 Speaker 1: of sentences. Again, I'm like drinking out of the fire 67 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,720 Speaker 1: hydrants too much at once. Why do you believe there 68 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:37,799 Speaker 1: is no incentive, because I've got a lot of incentive 69 00:04:37,800 --> 00:04:40,599 Speaker 1: to find out the truth. Oh, I don't mean media. 70 00:04:40,680 --> 00:04:44,599 Speaker 1: I mean on the part of institutional incentives within our government. 71 00:04:44,600 --> 00:04:47,200 Speaker 1: Please not call me media. Please do not call me media. 72 00:04:47,480 --> 00:04:49,520 Speaker 1: That makes me feel really bad about my whole career 73 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:52,280 Speaker 1: or trying to seek injustice. Well, let's say let's say 74 00:04:52,360 --> 00:04:58,839 Speaker 1: independent outsiders better phrasiology thank you, But I don't think 75 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,160 Speaker 1: that there's much into intuitional incentives to dig into this 76 00:05:02,960 --> 00:05:07,720 Speaker 1: understandably sell from a political perspective. Why we're not all 77 00:05:07,760 --> 00:05:09,920 Speaker 1: on the inside, we're on the outside looking in. Why 78 00:05:09,960 --> 00:05:12,760 Speaker 1: do you say no incentive to find the truth. Because 79 00:05:12,800 --> 00:05:18,360 Speaker 1: when you have two low hanging fruit, easy suspects to 80 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:22,120 Speaker 1: make a seemingly easy case against, it's much easier to 81 00:05:22,200 --> 00:05:25,719 Speaker 1: take the path of least resistance, and getting a couple 82 00:05:25,760 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: of proverbial or literal Patsy's is much easier than digging 83 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: in and opening up the can of worms and letting 84 00:05:33,040 --> 00:05:36,240 Speaker 1: prying lives like your own. I really have a good 85 00:05:36,279 --> 00:05:38,800 Speaker 1: look at what went on there, and certainly the suspicious 86 00:05:38,839 --> 00:05:43,039 Speaker 1: circumstances surrounding this are just an overwhelming It's just an 87 00:05:43,160 --> 00:05:47,800 Speaker 1: overwhelming chain of apparent systemic failures. And at some point 88 00:05:47,920 --> 00:05:51,680 Speaker 1: you have to say, there's so much smoke here. Can 89 00:05:51,760 --> 00:05:54,520 Speaker 1: this all be just chalked up to coincidence? And that's 90 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:57,760 Speaker 1: strange credulity and common sense? Right, Okay, I'm trying to 91 00:05:57,839 --> 00:06:01,440 Speaker 1: soak in everything you say, um, and I'm in the 92 00:06:01,600 --> 00:06:04,760 Speaker 1: very very difficult position here of agreeing with a defense 93 00:06:04,760 --> 00:06:08,440 Speaker 1: attorney not only a defense attorney for the defense attorney 94 00:06:08,760 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: for I can't say this enough, millionaire pedophile Jeff Epstein, 95 00:06:12,920 --> 00:06:19,000 Speaker 1: hold on Mark Furnish, Emily Saul, I gotta get to Emily, right, Yeah, 96 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,160 Speaker 1: and it's let's just say you got to have a trial, 97 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,400 Speaker 1: and it's all the two and it's all the two 98 00:06:26,520 --> 00:06:29,599 Speaker 1: guards fault. You know, let's it's a little too simplest 99 00:06:29,640 --> 00:06:31,840 Speaker 1: that you gotta have a trial again. I'm going to 100 00:06:32,000 --> 00:06:35,479 Speaker 1: use your own I know, I know what you're talking about. 101 00:06:35,480 --> 00:06:39,520 Speaker 1: I'm gonna use your own rationale on you. There's so 102 00:06:39,680 --> 00:06:42,800 Speaker 1: much smoke I can't see in the room. There's too 103 00:06:43,200 --> 00:06:47,840 Speaker 1: many alleged victims of Epstein's what them They're all lying 104 00:06:48,000 --> 00:06:50,960 Speaker 1: and he and Gilan are the only ones telling the truth. 105 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: I don't believe that, just as I believe that there's two. 106 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:58,400 Speaker 1: There are too many circumstantial facts, too many Coinkie thinks 107 00:06:58,440 --> 00:07:03,440 Speaker 1: coincidences surround Epstein's death. I mean, it's just overwhelming to 108 00:07:03,480 --> 00:07:08,640 Speaker 1: Emily Saul, New York Post journalist Emily what Well, this 109 00:07:08,839 --> 00:07:11,600 Speaker 1: is a loaded question? What jumps out at you? Yes, 110 00:07:11,680 --> 00:07:14,480 Speaker 1: there is a loaded question. Um. I mean, the MCC 111 00:07:14,840 --> 00:07:18,640 Speaker 1: has never been known as a superb facility. Uh, sort 112 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:22,520 Speaker 1: of stepping back from from Jeffrey Epstein, you for for 113 00:07:22,720 --> 00:07:25,000 Speaker 1: years now, I mean since it opened in nineteen seventy 114 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,320 Speaker 1: five when it was originally supposed to be you know, 115 00:07:27,400 --> 00:07:32,760 Speaker 1: it's a new human humanitarian free trial facility. UM. I 116 00:07:32,840 --> 00:07:37,640 Speaker 1: mean people have inmates have been filing lawsuits and letters 117 00:07:37,760 --> 00:07:42,440 Speaker 1: for years talking about just how the systemic issues inside 118 00:07:42,440 --> 00:07:46,360 Speaker 1: the facility, be it mold, be it staffing. Um. It's 119 00:07:47,160 --> 00:07:51,040 Speaker 1: it is interesting. Emily. Can I ask you a question? 120 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:53,640 Speaker 1: What is your expertise? I mean, yeah, I know you're 121 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:57,480 Speaker 1: an expert because you're at the Post, But what do 122 00:07:57,560 --> 00:07:59,840 Speaker 1: you write about the most? What do I write about 123 00:07:59,880 --> 00:08:01,880 Speaker 1: the most? So I covered the Southern District of New 124 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,320 Speaker 1: York for the Post and in that capacity, the Manhattan 125 00:08:06,400 --> 00:08:09,000 Speaker 1: Federal Court for the Post. Okay, well, Emily, then you 126 00:08:09,160 --> 00:08:11,960 Speaker 1: are no stranger to a jailhouse. And I've just got 127 00:08:12,080 --> 00:08:15,640 Speaker 1: to tell you, I have never seen an inmate that 128 00:08:15,800 --> 00:08:20,360 Speaker 1: did not complain bitterly about the jail conditions. Ever. Ever, 129 00:08:20,760 --> 00:08:23,560 Speaker 1: I've never, ever once. Since Let's see, when did I 130 00:08:23,600 --> 00:08:25,679 Speaker 1: start in the business. I got out of law school 131 00:08:25,680 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: in eighty four. I started prosecuting in eighty seven. Since 132 00:08:30,640 --> 00:08:33,839 Speaker 1: nineteen eighty seven. I've never heard one mmate go this 133 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,240 Speaker 1: place is awesome, the food's great. I love my roomy. 134 00:08:38,640 --> 00:08:42,360 Speaker 1: That never happens Emily, So I'm not really convinced by 135 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:47,400 Speaker 1: everybody whining about you also keep okay, furnish, You're not 136 00:08:47,520 --> 00:08:50,439 Speaker 1: overpowering anybody in the courtroom. Let Emily speak. Go ahead, 137 00:08:50,679 --> 00:08:53,880 Speaker 1: go ahead, go ahead. We'll just say you have I 138 00:08:53,960 --> 00:08:56,079 Speaker 1: will just say you have outside you have you have 139 00:08:56,120 --> 00:08:59,320 Speaker 1: outside reports, you have outside investigations, you have outside monitors, 140 00:08:59,360 --> 00:09:02,920 Speaker 1: you have international who's come in and who's basically said, 141 00:09:03,360 --> 00:09:06,839 Speaker 1: there are major systemic issues at this facility. That just 142 00:09:07,720 --> 00:09:11,320 Speaker 1: pain using that as the backdrop, that's for me, that's 143 00:09:11,360 --> 00:09:13,640 Speaker 1: one of the reasons that it is possible to believe 144 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: that a number of systemic failures and human error led 145 00:09:17,080 --> 00:09:20,760 Speaker 1: to what happened. There doesn't excuse what happened. It just 146 00:09:20,960 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: for me sort of informs the idea that there is 147 00:09:24,960 --> 00:09:29,440 Speaker 1: a possibility that this was the result of a series 148 00:09:29,480 --> 00:09:32,240 Speaker 1: of human errors. This was not a well run facility. 149 00:09:32,320 --> 00:09:34,480 Speaker 1: This is a facility that is supposed to hold a 150 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,560 Speaker 1: little less than four hundred people and insteads hold seven hundred. 151 00:09:37,800 --> 00:09:40,120 Speaker 1: This is a facility where you have people who are 152 00:09:40,960 --> 00:09:44,280 Speaker 1: worked to the bone, who are working overtime. Michael Thomas, 153 00:09:44,720 --> 00:09:47,679 Speaker 1: one of the people who was charged with falsifying timesheets, 154 00:09:47,960 --> 00:09:50,840 Speaker 1: isn't even a corrections officer. He works there in another 155 00:09:50,880 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: capacity and he's filling in because there are not enough 156 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:58,360 Speaker 1: corrections officers to staff the facility. Emily, Emily, I hear you. 157 00:09:58,559 --> 00:10:03,080 Speaker 1: I hear you, and I agree with you. However, those 158 00:10:03,200 --> 00:10:07,839 Speaker 1: circumstances about overcrowding, I mean, there's a federal order on 159 00:10:09,240 --> 00:10:12,920 Speaker 1: many of the jail in prison facilities in our jurisdiction 160 00:10:13,800 --> 00:10:20,400 Speaker 1: about overcrowding, overcrowding and public servants being worked like mules. 161 00:10:20,720 --> 00:10:24,079 Speaker 1: I remember being there myself and having to work two 162 00:10:24,200 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: night jobs to just make a house and a car payment, 163 00:10:27,400 --> 00:10:30,439 Speaker 1: and just working like a dog as a public servant. 164 00:10:31,000 --> 00:10:35,840 Speaker 1: I get it, but there still is a problem. There's 165 00:10:35,840 --> 00:10:52,360 Speaker 1: still a problem. Crime stories with Nancy Grace. There was 166 00:10:52,480 --> 00:10:55,800 Speaker 1: a note in Jeffrey Epstein's cell. He wrote, the one 167 00:10:55,880 --> 00:10:58,640 Speaker 1: guard kept me in a lock shower stall for one hour. 168 00:10:59,360 --> 00:11:03,600 Speaker 1: Noel guard sent me burnt food, giant bugs crawling over 169 00:11:03,760 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 1: my hands. Now fun. Doctor Michael Bonden says, if anyone 170 00:11:08,080 --> 00:11:11,440 Speaker 1: thought Jeffrey Epstein was suicidal. They wouldn't have let him 171 00:11:11,480 --> 00:11:14,040 Speaker 1: have a ballpoint pen that could be used to harm 172 00:11:14,160 --> 00:11:17,199 Speaker 1: himself or someone else. The other thing we just noticed 173 00:11:17,240 --> 00:11:19,719 Speaker 1: looking at the photos, it appears he had some kind 174 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:24,640 Speaker 1: of sleep aptia machine. You can see a long electrical cordy. Yes, 175 00:11:25,000 --> 00:11:29,760 Speaker 1: there were other wires and chords present that it would 176 00:11:29,800 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 1: have been easy to use to hang oneself. Within a 177 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 1: few minutes, you're hearing our friends at sixteen minutes describing 178 00:11:36,880 --> 00:11:41,720 Speaker 1: what they observed in Epstein's cell with me Mark Fernus, Jeffrey, 179 00:11:41,760 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 1: Epstein's criminal defense lawyer, Emily Saw New York Post doctor 180 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:49,720 Speaker 1: Kendall Crown's Austin Joe Scott Morgan forensics expert, and Bruce 181 00:11:50,000 --> 00:11:56,200 Speaker 1: Johnson owner i SP investigations to Joseph Scott Morgan. Joe Scott, 182 00:11:56,720 --> 00:12:00,640 Speaker 1: so many issues stand out for you. Just attack the 183 00:12:00,720 --> 00:12:03,640 Speaker 1: first two of them, he told me about. Yeah, sure, Nancy, Uh, 184 00:12:03,960 --> 00:12:07,040 Speaker 1: you know, I'm looking. I'm looking over you know these 185 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,160 Speaker 1: images as I guess many of us have, you know, 186 00:12:10,240 --> 00:12:12,319 Speaker 1: over the past few weeks, and you know, as all 187 00:12:12,360 --> 00:12:14,920 Speaker 1: of this has kind of come down and and I'm 188 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:18,360 Speaker 1: amazed at you know, when you when you first take 189 00:12:18,400 --> 00:12:22,240 Speaker 1: a look at this, how deep these furrows are in 190 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:27,240 Speaker 1: Epstein's neck. The furrows are the narrow little areas where 191 00:12:27,320 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 1: you commonly see a ligature has been applied to a 192 00:12:31,240 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 1: specific area that has led to a strangulation or hanging. 193 00:12:36,920 --> 00:12:39,160 Speaker 1: In this this particular case, they're saying that it's a 194 00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:42,960 Speaker 1: ligature strangulation. This is a very narrow area. And what's 195 00:12:43,000 --> 00:12:46,800 Speaker 1: being applied or what's being implied here is that this 196 00:12:47,000 --> 00:12:50,520 Speaker 1: piece of broadcloth that was utilized, I guess he ripped 197 00:12:50,520 --> 00:12:52,200 Speaker 1: it up from a sheet or whatever the case might 198 00:12:52,240 --> 00:12:55,840 Speaker 1: be in fashion and news, it doesn't have the same 199 00:12:55,960 --> 00:13:00,800 Speaker 1: consistency as say an electrical cord or piece of rope 200 00:13:01,000 --> 00:13:03,719 Speaker 1: that could generate that kind of furrow. So for me, 201 00:13:04,120 --> 00:13:07,120 Speaker 1: you know, as you know, as a former Emmy investigator 202 00:13:07,200 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: or corner investigator in New Orleans, I look at this, 203 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:13,160 Speaker 1: having worked a lot of jailhouse desks, I look at 204 00:13:13,200 --> 00:13:15,520 Speaker 1: this and it really makes me scratch my head. And 205 00:13:15,600 --> 00:13:18,520 Speaker 1: of course we're coming to this after he has already 206 00:13:18,559 --> 00:13:21,760 Speaker 1: been removed from the cell, he's already been taken to 207 00:13:21,880 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 1: the hospital. So we're missing a lot of information here, 208 00:13:25,240 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 1: and that makes it particularly difficult. Stop right there. Let's 209 00:13:29,320 --> 00:13:33,520 Speaker 1: be specific. Doctor Kendall Crowns, Depumedical Examiner, Travis County, Austin. 210 00:13:33,880 --> 00:13:37,959 Speaker 1: Doctor Crowns, I'm gonna just put it in regular people 211 00:13:38,040 --> 00:13:41,520 Speaker 1: taught from what Joe Scott Morgan just said. The furrow, 212 00:13:41,960 --> 00:13:45,079 Speaker 1: the hanging I'm just gonna do hanging in air quoties 213 00:13:45,400 --> 00:13:48,920 Speaker 1: marks on Epstein's neck seem to have come from something 214 00:13:49,040 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 1: other than a wide piece of material. Now granted, when 215 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: you hang somebody with a wide piece of material, the 216 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: material will scrunch up, it won't remain widely applied on 217 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:07,880 Speaker 1: the net. But still, doctor Crowns, what Morgan is saying, 218 00:14:08,040 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: the deep, deep furrows in the neck appear to be 219 00:14:12,160 --> 00:14:15,679 Speaker 1: made more likely with a rope or a wire. What 220 00:14:15,840 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: do you say, Crowns. I think with a sheet you 221 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: can actually twist it up, which I've seen in other 222 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: hangings with sheets, and it can become quite tight the 223 00:14:25,680 --> 00:14:28,360 Speaker 1: more you twist it, so it can leave a fairly 224 00:14:28,440 --> 00:14:32,440 Speaker 1: deep furrow, especially if the individual is suspended or there 225 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: a lot of their weight is put on them. So 226 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 1: you can match up the furrow itself with the material, 227 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:41,480 Speaker 1: and you can find findings in the furrow that will 228 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:45,360 Speaker 1: match the material as well. I'm sure the medical examiners 229 00:14:45,400 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 1: photographed it that way. Well wait a minute, what do 230 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,160 Speaker 1: you mean. Are you saying that you believe there will 231 00:14:49,160 --> 00:14:52,040 Speaker 1: be sheet particles in the furrow that would match up 232 00:14:52,080 --> 00:14:55,120 Speaker 1: to the news the homemade news. Not necessarily the particles, 233 00:14:55,200 --> 00:14:57,760 Speaker 1: but the actual pattern of the sheet. If you'll see 234 00:14:57,800 --> 00:15:00,440 Speaker 1: the webbing of the sheet or the weaving pattern in 235 00:15:00,520 --> 00:15:02,680 Speaker 1: the sheet, you can see in the furrow itself. Hold 236 00:15:02,720 --> 00:15:06,560 Speaker 1: on just a moment to mark furnish. The piece of 237 00:15:06,680 --> 00:15:10,680 Speaker 1: material that we've been told created homemade noose did not 238 00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: have blood on it. According to Michael Boden, who is 239 00:15:13,840 --> 00:15:17,520 Speaker 1: a very well known medical examiner a friend of mine. 240 00:15:17,560 --> 00:15:19,920 Speaker 1: Of course I rarely agree with him, but on this 241 00:15:20,160 --> 00:15:24,000 Speaker 1: I find that very very significant. Is that true? Well, 242 00:15:24,000 --> 00:15:26,880 Speaker 1: I don't know. I don't have access to that information either. 243 00:15:27,280 --> 00:15:29,640 Speaker 1: All I can say is that I have immense respect 244 00:15:29,800 --> 00:15:33,480 Speaker 1: for doctor Boden and the folks on this panel who 245 00:15:34,120 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: have better expertise in that area than I do. Obviously 246 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:42,160 Speaker 1: are very well informed and know what they're talking about, 247 00:15:42,240 --> 00:15:45,760 Speaker 1: and are multiple theories, and a good expert can spin 248 00:15:45,840 --> 00:15:49,440 Speaker 1: out whatever they want out of the same information. So 249 00:15:49,800 --> 00:15:53,000 Speaker 1: I'll defer to what the doctors say for now, based 250 00:15:53,080 --> 00:15:55,680 Speaker 1: on the limited information that's been publicly release. Take a 251 00:15:55,680 --> 00:15:57,960 Speaker 1: listen to our friends at sixty minutes. Also, something that's 252 00:15:57,960 --> 00:16:01,880 Speaker 1: striking about the photos. The womb is down here. You'd 253 00:16:01,920 --> 00:16:05,080 Speaker 1: think if somebody hung themselves, the wound would be maybe 254 00:16:05,200 --> 00:16:10,000 Speaker 1: up here. Yes, most hangings, especially free hangings, the ligature 255 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:14,720 Speaker 1: slides up to beneath the jawbone, the mandible. Here it's 256 00:16:14,760 --> 00:16:17,200 Speaker 1: in the middle of the neck. Doctor Boden says a 257 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: wound straight across the neck is more common when a 258 00:16:20,440 --> 00:16:24,240 Speaker 1: victim is strangled by a wire cord. He and Epstein's 259 00:16:24,280 --> 00:16:26,760 Speaker 1: brother Mark met with a government and asked to see 260 00:16:26,800 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: any forensic testing and any video, but they say they 261 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:33,480 Speaker 1: were told the ongoing criminal case against the two guards 262 00:16:33,840 --> 00:16:37,960 Speaker 1: prevents the Justice Department from releasing any information, So the 263 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:41,040 Speaker 1: criminal charges are now basically a firewall for the family 264 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,560 Speaker 1: to get any information about it from the Justice Department. 265 00:16:43,800 --> 00:16:47,920 Speaker 1: The charges have also silenced the guards. The attorney for Guard, 266 00:16:48,040 --> 00:16:52,880 Speaker 1: Michael Thomas, says, five months after Epstein's death, Thomas has 267 00:16:52,960 --> 00:16:57,040 Speaker 1: still not spoken to investigators or revealed how he alone 268 00:16:57,160 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 1: found Epstein's body. Now that all so, it's curious to 269 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,760 Speaker 1: Emily Saul New York Post way in Emily. It's fascinating 270 00:17:04,920 --> 00:17:09,040 Speaker 1: that Thomas has not been questioned, especially because he was 271 00:17:09,160 --> 00:17:12,320 Speaker 1: one of the He was one of the MCC staffers 272 00:17:12,359 --> 00:17:16,760 Speaker 1: who responded to Epstein's first suicide attempt in July of 273 00:17:17,680 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: two nineteen. So the idea that he would not have 274 00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:24,040 Speaker 1: been questioned, even with his lawyer of prison, to me, 275 00:17:24,160 --> 00:17:26,399 Speaker 1: it is just as unfathomable. You'd think that would be 276 00:17:26,840 --> 00:17:30,640 Speaker 1: one of the very first things that had happened before 277 00:17:31,119 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: we even began to see the federal investigation into Thomas 278 00:17:34,640 --> 00:17:38,840 Speaker 1: and into Toba Noel. It just doesn't make sense to 279 00:17:38,960 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: me as an a lay person. Bruce Johnson, owner of 280 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,600 Speaker 1: ESP Investigations, the Master's Sergeant, Region one Crimes inc. Commander 281 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:49,760 Speaker 1: Chicago Metro Bruce Johnson, I mean, this is no way 282 00:17:49,880 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 1: to conduct an investigation. And I say that not as 283 00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:59,560 Speaker 1: you know, a media person, but having conducted literally thousands 284 00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: of investigations over the course of many years as both 285 00:18:04,080 --> 00:18:08,320 Speaker 1: a state felony prosecutor and a fed the fact that 286 00:18:08,720 --> 00:18:11,880 Speaker 1: this guy has not been questioned, Its just that's where 287 00:18:11,960 --> 00:18:15,400 Speaker 1: you start. They are the ones that find the body, 288 00:18:15,480 --> 00:18:17,639 Speaker 1: they are the ones that allow the body to be moved. 289 00:18:17,720 --> 00:18:20,160 Speaker 1: That was a crime scene. That was a huge departure 290 00:18:20,200 --> 00:18:24,160 Speaker 1: in protocol. He was already dead. That's either a homicide 291 00:18:24,240 --> 00:18:26,719 Speaker 1: or a suicide. There were no photos of the location 292 00:18:26,800 --> 00:18:29,680 Speaker 1: of his body. The scene was disturbed, what a mess. 293 00:18:29,760 --> 00:18:33,080 Speaker 1: And the guy hasn't even been in the question. Bruce 294 00:18:33,440 --> 00:18:36,719 Speaker 1: the first officer at the scene. This is the officer 295 00:18:36,840 --> 00:18:39,920 Speaker 1: that was alone and cut him down or did whatever 296 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:42,320 Speaker 1: he did. So that is going to be very important 297 00:18:42,359 --> 00:18:44,520 Speaker 1: to talk to this guy to see the position of 298 00:18:44,600 --> 00:18:47,000 Speaker 1: the body. That's going to help you with the ligature 299 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:50,159 Speaker 1: mark on the neck, which is going to be at 300 00:18:50,200 --> 00:18:52,560 Speaker 1: the autopsy, and then is also going to lead to 301 00:18:52,600 --> 00:18:55,080 Speaker 1: information about the crime scene. So we all want to know. 302 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:57,920 Speaker 1: You could have a hanging by a person on his 303 00:18:58,040 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 1: knees leaning forward. That's going to give us information as 304 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,040 Speaker 1: to where the ligature mark should be. We're looking at 305 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: the ligature. Market looks like it's straight across. If it's 306 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 1: a hanging from the thirty six inches of orange that's 307 00:19:11,920 --> 00:19:17,440 Speaker 1: on the bed. If it's that high, then you should 308 00:19:17,480 --> 00:19:21,560 Speaker 1: have a U shape. If he's leaning forward in parallel 309 00:19:21,640 --> 00:19:24,880 Speaker 1: with the mattress. If he's that low, then you may 310 00:19:24,960 --> 00:19:29,360 Speaker 1: have it coming across the neck. But that's very important 311 00:19:29,400 --> 00:19:32,119 Speaker 1: information to get from the officer at the scene and 312 00:19:32,240 --> 00:19:36,360 Speaker 1: for him not to be investigated yet as a supervisor 313 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:39,000 Speaker 1: on that day, I would ask him. I would say, 314 00:19:39,440 --> 00:19:41,520 Speaker 1: I need to know everything you did from beginning to 315 00:19:41,600 --> 00:19:49,480 Speaker 1: and before you go into a an officer interview for 316 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:52,000 Speaker 1: protocol with him to have an attorney in FLP or whatever. 317 00:19:52,119 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: As a supervisor, I could ask him, what were you doing, 318 00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 1: what did you do you know during this time period 319 00:19:59,280 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: and get that chain going, and for him not to 320 00:20:01,960 --> 00:20:19,840 Speaker 1: speak to anybody within five months is just ridiculous. Crime 321 00:20:19,960 --> 00:20:24,359 Speaker 1: Stories with Nancy Grace. The New York City Medical Examiner's 322 00:20:24,400 --> 00:20:28,080 Speaker 1: Office disputes Boden's theory, saying the fractures of the hyoid 323 00:20:28,119 --> 00:20:32,160 Speaker 1: bone and cartilage can be seen in suicides and homicides, 324 00:20:32,440 --> 00:20:36,000 Speaker 1: and they stand firmly behind their finding of suicide by hanging. 325 00:20:36,960 --> 00:20:39,879 Speaker 1: Then there's the two nooses. This was the one that 326 00:20:40,040 --> 00:20:43,360 Speaker 1: was sketched and included in the autopsy by the medical examiner, 327 00:20:43,680 --> 00:20:46,880 Speaker 1: presumably because they thought it was used in Epstein's death. 328 00:20:47,560 --> 00:20:50,440 Speaker 1: But doctor Boden says that noose and the wounds on 329 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Epstein's neck don't appear to match. What do you 330 00:20:54,080 --> 00:20:56,600 Speaker 1: see when you see these two things together. What I 331 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: see here is that this noose doesn't matter the ligature, 332 00:21:01,480 --> 00:21:05,040 Speaker 1: furrow mark. It's wider than this. To nick and eye, 333 00:21:05,080 --> 00:21:07,120 Speaker 1: it looks like there's some blood here, and it doesn't 334 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:09,040 Speaker 1: look like there's any blood on this news. That's right. 335 00:21:09,440 --> 00:21:12,720 Speaker 1: This looks like a clean noose that was never used 336 00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 1: to compress anybody's neck. You're hearing our friends at CBS 337 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: sixteen minutes describing inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell. That was Sharon 338 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:26,480 Speaker 1: Alfansi speaking more questions than answers today. Back to Emily Sault, 339 00:21:26,520 --> 00:21:30,520 Speaker 1: New York Posted journalists. The fact that the corrections officer 340 00:21:30,640 --> 00:21:34,600 Speaker 1: Michael Thomas that discovered Epstein and apparently cut down his body, 341 00:21:34,640 --> 00:21:37,600 Speaker 1: I mean, I assume that's what happened has not been questioned. 342 00:21:38,000 --> 00:21:40,399 Speaker 1: You've got a renown medical examiners saying the news had 343 00:21:40,480 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 1: no blood on it, when we can clearly see the 344 00:21:43,040 --> 00:21:46,760 Speaker 1: wound to his neck is bloody. Emily, why aren't they 345 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:51,080 Speaker 1: questioning the first officers on the scene, and what are 346 00:21:51,119 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: the answers about how protocol was clearly violated? I mean, 347 00:21:55,640 --> 00:21:58,800 Speaker 1: these are fantastic questions, and they're ones where answered, I 348 00:21:58,960 --> 00:22:02,680 Speaker 1: lean the Justice Department and the BOP have done absolutely 349 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,680 Speaker 1: everything they can to not publicly answer. What are you saying, 350 00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 1: the BOP or the Bureau of Prisons, which is a 351 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:11,960 Speaker 1: section of the Department of Justice, who is over seeing 352 00:22:11,960 --> 00:22:14,920 Speaker 1: the investigation. Yeah, they just have for every time we 353 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:17,119 Speaker 1: ask for a comment, every time we put in a 354 00:22:17,200 --> 00:22:20,760 Speaker 1: foil request for information, the same answer we're given continually 355 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:23,760 Speaker 1: is that the investigation is ongoing and therefore they can't talk. 356 00:22:24,040 --> 00:22:26,119 Speaker 1: I hate to steal from Alice in Wonderland, but it 357 00:22:26,160 --> 00:22:28,920 Speaker 1: seems to get curious or and curious or listen in 358 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:31,720 Speaker 1: the pictures of the cell, there are multiple news. Is 359 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:35,720 Speaker 1: the fact that the medical examiner sketched one news this news. 360 00:22:35,880 --> 00:22:40,239 Speaker 1: This is the news they think was responsible for killing Jeffreys. Yes, 361 00:22:40,359 --> 00:22:45,720 Speaker 1: this would be the ligature, the news that was involved 362 00:22:45,760 --> 00:22:48,880 Speaker 1: in causing the death. That's why it was sketched. One 363 00:22:48,920 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: of the things we have heard is that the guard 364 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:55,960 Speaker 1: that found Jeffrey Epstein cut him down, which you'd seem 365 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: to indicate somebody cutting down a news or something. If 366 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:02,200 Speaker 1: you look at the news that the medical examiner examine, 367 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 1: and you look very closely at the edges, it appears 368 00:23:05,440 --> 00:23:08,840 Speaker 1: perfectly hemmed. It doesn't look like anybody ever took scissors 369 00:23:08,880 --> 00:23:11,680 Speaker 1: to it, So there is some question is that the 370 00:23:11,800 --> 00:23:16,199 Speaker 1: right news. The difficulties with this story is because they 371 00:23:16,440 --> 00:23:19,919 Speaker 1: charge two guards, there is a firewall and you cannot 372 00:23:19,920 --> 00:23:22,720 Speaker 1: get information because you go to the Department of Justice, 373 00:23:22,840 --> 00:23:24,880 Speaker 1: you go to the FBI and say, hey, what's going 374 00:23:24,920 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 1: on here, and they said, there's an ongoing criminal investigation. 375 00:23:27,320 --> 00:23:31,000 Speaker 1: We can't tell you anything. To Mark Furnace, Jeffrey Epstein's 376 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,680 Speaker 1: criminal defense attorney. Is it true that Epstein's own brother 377 00:23:35,000 --> 00:23:37,119 Speaker 1: does not believe this was a suicide, but you can 378 00:23:37,200 --> 00:23:39,840 Speaker 1: see that by the hiring of doctor Bobben. I think 379 00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:41,639 Speaker 1: that the answer is they want to find out what 380 00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:45,119 Speaker 1: the truth is, and there's a lot of questions and 381 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,200 Speaker 1: suspicions around it, and even doctor Bobden, at this point, 382 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:51,920 Speaker 1: at least for public record, is not offering a definitive conclusion. 383 00:23:52,320 --> 00:23:54,800 Speaker 1: He's just saying that there are, to use your phrase 384 00:23:54,840 --> 00:23:58,320 Speaker 1: from earlier, a lot of curiosities in the evidence, and 385 00:23:58,440 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 1: in his view at this point, based on what he's examined, 386 00:24:01,320 --> 00:24:05,280 Speaker 1: it seems to point more strongly to homicide than suicide. 387 00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:08,840 Speaker 1: So I think he if I could speak for him, 388 00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:12,360 Speaker 1: is skeptical of the assertion that it was that mister 389 00:24:12,480 --> 00:24:15,760 Speaker 1: Epstein killed himself and wants to get to the bottom 390 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: of it and look. So I speak as a citizen 391 00:24:19,040 --> 00:24:21,359 Speaker 1: and as a criminal defense layer. I understand that there 392 00:24:21,440 --> 00:24:24,800 Speaker 1: is an ongoing criminal case, and I don't think firewall 393 00:24:25,320 --> 00:24:27,639 Speaker 1: is that's kind of a loaded question. You have to 394 00:24:28,280 --> 00:24:31,159 Speaker 1: give some semblance of protection to the defendant's rights. So 395 00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:33,280 Speaker 1: the government isn't going to just show their hand and 396 00:24:33,359 --> 00:24:36,080 Speaker 1: talk about what's going on behind the scenes. I say 397 00:24:36,160 --> 00:24:39,440 Speaker 1: that as a lawyer, but as a citizen, of course, 398 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: the public wants to know and find out what happened. 399 00:24:42,760 --> 00:24:45,200 Speaker 1: And if I had to predict how this plays out, 400 00:24:45,359 --> 00:24:47,920 Speaker 1: and I don't have any inside baseball, this is just 401 00:24:48,040 --> 00:24:50,679 Speaker 1: on a hunch. This case against the guards is never 402 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,200 Speaker 1: going to go to trial. At some point, there'll be 403 00:24:53,320 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: a disposition reached. I understand from the published reports that 404 00:24:57,000 --> 00:25:00,119 Speaker 1: they were trying to get these guards to cooperate in 405 00:25:00,200 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: the days after Epstein's passing. It didn't work out, and 406 00:25:03,680 --> 00:25:05,520 Speaker 1: this is why I had to guess will never be 407 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:10,760 Speaker 1: aired publicly, at least not against these guards. There'll be 408 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: a deal reached at some point and you're never going 409 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:15,840 Speaker 1: to get a public airing at the fact surrounding his death. Well, 410 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:21,159 Speaker 1: that's the way in so many unusual cases, they have 411 00:25:21,240 --> 00:25:23,720 Speaker 1: a cooling off period where the public singally forgets about 412 00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:26,040 Speaker 1: it and then there is a deal made and it 413 00:25:26,119 --> 00:25:28,359 Speaker 1: just goes away and that's the end of it, and 414 00:25:28,480 --> 00:25:30,919 Speaker 1: the truth never really comes out. To Emily saw New 415 00:25:31,000 --> 00:25:37,160 Speaker 1: York Post, what would be the incentive to murder Jeffrey Epstein? 416 00:25:38,359 --> 00:25:45,879 Speaker 1: Another loaded question. I mean, he as he's you know, 417 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:50,600 Speaker 1: he's been accused obviously of serial sex abuse going back 418 00:25:51,119 --> 00:25:57,159 Speaker 1: decades of hundreds of of young girls. And he was 419 00:25:57,280 --> 00:25:59,280 Speaker 1: known I mean, we have a little black book he 420 00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:03,680 Speaker 1: he was known to send lots of time with very 421 00:26:03,760 --> 00:26:06,440 Speaker 1: powerful people. As I mean, we've heard people put it. 422 00:26:06,520 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 1: He liked to collect the rich and famous, and so 423 00:26:11,400 --> 00:26:13,360 Speaker 1: I mean, if you want, if you care to subscribe 424 00:26:13,400 --> 00:26:17,480 Speaker 1: to conspiracy theories, at one of them would be that, 425 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:21,480 Speaker 1: you know, if someone was concerned that they would be implicated. 426 00:26:21,800 --> 00:26:24,119 Speaker 1: We have some very big names that appear to have 427 00:26:24,200 --> 00:26:27,479 Speaker 1: been very close to him. If someone was concerned about 428 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: potentially being charged themselves or what he knew, I mean, 429 00:26:32,160 --> 00:26:35,880 Speaker 1: that would certainly be a reason whether or not it's 430 00:26:35,920 --> 00:26:39,439 Speaker 1: feasible inside the MCC is a whole other story. Well, 431 00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,760 Speaker 1: the reality is to you, Bruce Johnson, you've investigated so 432 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:47,040 Speaker 1: many felonies when you look at motivation. Of course, his 433 00:26:47,119 --> 00:26:49,240 Speaker 1: state never has to prove motivation at a trial. But 434 00:26:50,560 --> 00:26:55,399 Speaker 1: we know for a fact, according to reliable sources that 435 00:26:55,560 --> 00:26:59,919 Speaker 1: have been inside Epstein's Manhattan home, that it was covered 436 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:03,879 Speaker 1: with video cameras, including in all of the bedrooms. We 437 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:11,120 Speaker 1: know that very wealthy and powerful individuals they're visiting Epstein 438 00:27:11,280 --> 00:27:17,320 Speaker 1: had sex with multiple women, potentially under age women. And 439 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:20,040 Speaker 1: obviously we're video Why else do you have a video camera, 440 00:27:20,600 --> 00:27:24,160 Speaker 1: every video nanny cam in our house videos twenty four 441 00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: to seven. I rarely look at it, but it's there. 442 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:32,320 Speaker 1: So those cameras are there for a reason, Bruce. So 443 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:34,520 Speaker 1: you want to tell me that nobody has an ex 444 00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:37,320 Speaker 1: to grind against Epstein with all those video cameras and 445 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: they're and they're having sex potentially with under age women. 446 00:27:41,119 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 1: There are hundreds of high profile people, including the president 447 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,680 Speaker 1: former president that had been a book President Clinton and 448 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,600 Speaker 1: Trump that had been associated with this guy and taking 449 00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:53,080 Speaker 1: trips to the island, and there are a lot of 450 00:27:53,119 --> 00:27:54,800 Speaker 1: people shaking in their boots. If this was going to 451 00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:56,560 Speaker 1: go to a trial they did not want to see. 452 00:27:56,560 --> 00:27:59,080 Speaker 1: If there's plenty of cause for people not to want 453 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,879 Speaker 1: to see this guy go to the investigation part. You 454 00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,000 Speaker 1: may not have video of these cells or video that 455 00:28:04,119 --> 00:28:06,680 Speaker 1: was lost. You got video of the guards. He doesn't 456 00:28:06,680 --> 00:28:08,879 Speaker 1: walk around with scissors in his pocket or on his 457 00:28:09,000 --> 00:28:11,760 Speaker 1: hip with his gun belt. Where did he get the scissors. 458 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:13,760 Speaker 1: He had to go get the scissors. He said he 459 00:28:13,880 --> 00:28:16,119 Speaker 1: was there alone. So I want to know information on that. 460 00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,399 Speaker 1: The crime scene. When you look at the cell, that 461 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:21,320 Speaker 1: looks like a holiday in hotel room upon checkout, there 462 00:28:21,400 --> 00:28:24,240 Speaker 1: are sheets and stuff all over the place, their accords 463 00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,080 Speaker 1: in there, it doesn't make sense that this guy's on 464 00:28:28,240 --> 00:28:30,600 Speaker 1: suicide watch every one of us. You look at those 465 00:28:30,760 --> 00:28:33,480 Speaker 1: you look at the cell, you open up the cell door, 466 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:35,680 Speaker 1: and you see that that looks like a hotel room, 467 00:28:35,680 --> 00:28:39,600 Speaker 1: their sheets in there. From five people, well, you're absolutely right, 468 00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:44,040 Speaker 1: the cell was a wreck. Let's star phrase at ABC 469 00:28:44,200 --> 00:28:47,240 Speaker 1: twenty five wp f B Terry Parker you can found 470 00:28:47,280 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 1: inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell after his death doesn't support the 471 00:28:51,040 --> 00:28:54,480 Speaker 1: conclusion that Epstein hung himself using a bedsheet. Does it 472 00:28:54,600 --> 00:29:00,760 Speaker 1: look stage to you, that's certainly one of the appearances 473 00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: it has yet staged suicide. Badden says it's hard to 474 00:29:04,120 --> 00:29:08,760 Speaker 1: tell how Epstein really died because jail's staff inexplicably moved 475 00:29:08,840 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: Epstein's body before the medical examiner arrived and could document 476 00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,560 Speaker 1: the evidence. It is highly unusual to remove a dead 477 00:29:16,640 --> 00:29:23,800 Speaker 1: body from a cell before it's fully investigated. Investigators found 478 00:29:23,880 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: numerous orange bed sheets on the floor, some tight and 479 00:29:26,480 --> 00:29:29,600 Speaker 1: complicated nooses, and part of one sheet attached to a 480 00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:32,960 Speaker 1: rung of the bottom metal bunk. Badden says the sheet 481 00:29:33,040 --> 00:29:35,240 Speaker 1: was too low to the floor to explain the broken 482 00:29:35,320 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: bone and cartilage at Epstein's neck, which had to come 483 00:29:38,280 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: from extreme force, not from just kneeling. Forward Crime Stories 484 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:59,040 Speaker 1: with Nancy Grace. He found inside Jeffrey Epstein's cell after 485 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:03,080 Speaker 1: his death doesn't support the conclusion that Epstein hung himself 486 00:30:03,200 --> 00:30:08,040 Speaker 1: using a bedsheet. Does it look stage to you? That's 487 00:30:08,120 --> 00:30:13,520 Speaker 1: certainly one of the appearances that has yet stage suicide. 488 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: Badden says it's hard to tell how Epstein really died 489 00:30:16,840 --> 00:30:21,840 Speaker 1: because jail's staff inexplicably moved Epstein's body before the medical 490 00:30:21,880 --> 00:30:25,760 Speaker 1: examiner arrived and could document the evidence. It is highly 491 00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:33,320 Speaker 1: unusual to move a dead body from a sel before 492 00:30:33,320 --> 00:30:37,680 Speaker 1: it's fully investigated. Investigators found numerous orange bedsheets on the floor, 493 00:30:37,880 --> 00:30:41,200 Speaker 1: some tight and complicated nooses, and part of one sheet 494 00:30:41,240 --> 00:30:44,640 Speaker 1: attached to a rung of the bottom metal bunk. Badden 495 00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: says the sheet was too low to the floor to 496 00:30:46,760 --> 00:30:50,320 Speaker 1: explain the broken bone and cartilage at Epstein's neck, which 497 00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 1: had to come from extreme force, not from just kneeling. 498 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:57,960 Speaker 1: Forward to Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, what about that, 499 00:30:58,200 --> 00:31:01,800 Speaker 1: now we all became well, many people became familiar with 500 00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:07,720 Speaker 1: that mode of suicide when comedian Robin Williams hung himself 501 00:31:08,440 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: apparently from a doorknob. So explain what you are hearing 502 00:31:14,520 --> 00:31:18,560 Speaker 1: and why if you think so, that's inconsistent with suicide. Yeah, 503 00:31:18,640 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 1: back to the Robin Williams case. As our colleague mentioned 504 00:31:21,400 --> 00:31:25,520 Speaker 1: just a moment ago, you're not required to be suspended 505 00:31:25,600 --> 00:31:27,560 Speaker 1: in the air in order to hang yourself. I'll go 506 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:31,840 Speaker 1: ahead and say that. And that suspension that has been 507 00:31:31,880 --> 00:31:35,040 Speaker 1: previously mentioned. This could be accomplished if you're on your knees. 508 00:31:35,320 --> 00:31:38,040 Speaker 1: But this is kind of a slow event, okay, where 509 00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: you're sinking into the noose. You can either lean forward, 510 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:44,440 Speaker 1: I guess, or you can sit on your backside on 511 00:31:44,560 --> 00:31:47,120 Speaker 1: the floor. But when you begin to look at the 512 00:31:47,240 --> 00:31:50,960 Speaker 1: height that we're talking about, that that rung where we 513 00:31:51,040 --> 00:31:55,240 Speaker 1: see the cloth wrapped around the rung, is that sufficient 514 00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:58,880 Speaker 1: to offer up the amount of force that it would 515 00:31:58,920 --> 00:32:03,480 Speaker 1: take Nancy not to create one fracture, but two fractures 516 00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:07,040 Speaker 1: in the thyroid cartilage as well as one of the 517 00:32:07,160 --> 00:32:10,480 Speaker 1: greater horns of the highoid, which is actually seated up 518 00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:13,640 Speaker 1: high in the neck. Now that's what Boden is talking 519 00:32:13,680 --> 00:32:19,800 Speaker 1: about here, this tremendous amount of force, it seems less 520 00:32:19,840 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 1: than plausible, I'll put it that way, that you could 521 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:27,120 Speaker 1: achieve this by simply squatting in one position. I have 522 00:32:27,280 --> 00:32:29,560 Speaker 1: to say. The morning that this happened, I did a 523 00:32:29,640 --> 00:32:35,520 Speaker 1: screen capture of them wheeling Epstein into the emergency room. 524 00:32:35,600 --> 00:32:38,320 Speaker 1: There was a brief shot of him and you had 525 00:32:38,360 --> 00:32:41,000 Speaker 1: the EMTs that were bringing him in. He had a 526 00:32:41,160 --> 00:32:44,800 Speaker 1: ligature around his neck at that moment in time. And 527 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:48,120 Speaker 1: I've reflected back on that a couple of times since 528 00:32:48,200 --> 00:32:51,040 Speaker 1: this has all come down. It had to be removed 529 00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,760 Speaker 1: Prior to that. I look at that jail cell. I'm 530 00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:56,600 Speaker 1: not going to go out and say that this thing 531 00:32:56,760 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: was staged. But I have to say, been in a 532 00:33:01,080 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: number of cells working suicides and other types of deaths 533 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:10,920 Speaker 1: in various correstional facilities. This place, this place actually verges 534 00:33:11,000 --> 00:33:15,440 Speaker 1: on squalid in appearance, and this is a federal Facility's 535 00:33:15,640 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: exactly what Emily saw. A New York Post is saying, 536 00:33:18,920 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: but how does that relate to the homicide slash suicide? Well, 537 00:33:22,120 --> 00:33:25,000 Speaker 1: I think that how it relates is that it gives 538 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,400 Speaker 1: you an idea that no one was paying attention to 539 00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 1: this guy. Nancy got it to doctor Kennel. Crowns agree 540 00:33:32,560 --> 00:33:36,680 Speaker 1: or disagree because of mister Epstein's age. What happens is 541 00:33:37,160 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: your high late bone, your thyroid cartilage has actually become 542 00:33:40,680 --> 00:33:43,560 Speaker 1: more fragile as you get older, once you get into 543 00:33:43,600 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: the sixties, late fifties, early sixties, these bones break a 544 00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:52,640 Speaker 1: lot more easier or easily. I'm sorry, So I think, yes, 545 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: he could have leaned into it and those bones could 546 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,480 Speaker 1: have broken. The other thing you have to think of, too, 547 00:33:57,720 --> 00:34:00,760 Speaker 1: is they did appear to try and debate him, because 548 00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,560 Speaker 1: there is information that there's abrasions about his mouth from innubation. 549 00:34:05,400 --> 00:34:09,760 Speaker 1: The EMPs as they're trying to manipulate his oral airway 550 00:34:09,920 --> 00:34:14,360 Speaker 1: could have also further exaggerated those structures. So because of 551 00:34:14,440 --> 00:34:18,000 Speaker 1: his age, because of the fact that they intubated him 552 00:34:18,160 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: or put an air tube in his mouth, but I've 553 00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:25,480 Speaker 1: never heard of intubation and causing fractures. Hold on, is 554 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,800 Speaker 1: that marker Bruce speaking Bruce Japan. What it looks like 555 00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: is if you look at the investigation portion right now, 556 00:34:32,239 --> 00:34:34,040 Speaker 1: what he said that the news was not on the 557 00:34:34,160 --> 00:34:36,439 Speaker 1: neck going to m he never should have been moved. 558 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:39,120 Speaker 1: That tells me that the investigation is going that, Hey, 559 00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:41,600 Speaker 1: we're trying to save a life. We just got here. 560 00:34:41,640 --> 00:34:43,279 Speaker 1: We've seen him in the cell, we cut him down, 561 00:34:43,320 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: we're rushing him to the emergency room. We're going to 562 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:47,799 Speaker 1: try and save him. They knew he was dead. They 563 00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:49,880 Speaker 1: didn't know he was dead for eight hours, but they 564 00:34:49,960 --> 00:34:52,520 Speaker 1: knew he had been dead. He's probably gold to the touch. 565 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:56,440 Speaker 1: Rigor mortis is probably already starting to set in right right. 566 00:34:56,560 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: We know, we know it was a huge breaking protocol 567 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:03,719 Speaker 1: to move the body, and I agree with you that 568 00:35:03,880 --> 00:35:06,320 Speaker 1: take a listen to this and in comparison to the 569 00:35:06,440 --> 00:35:10,839 Speaker 1: chaotic scene in the room, here's the dichotomy. He says, 570 00:35:11,040 --> 00:35:13,959 Speaker 1: it doesn't appear he jumped off the top bunk. There's 571 00:35:14,000 --> 00:35:16,319 Speaker 1: nothing disturbed in the top bunk of than a whole 572 00:35:16,360 --> 00:35:20,000 Speaker 1: bunch of personal items are up there. But if he 573 00:35:20,080 --> 00:35:23,760 Speaker 1: jumped off the bed, he would show injuries on the body. 574 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,280 Speaker 1: Batton says the thick sheet knodded into the noose Epstein 575 00:35:27,320 --> 00:35:30,640 Speaker 1: allegedly used doesn't match his injuries, which looked more like 576 00:35:30,800 --> 00:35:33,920 Speaker 1: they were made from a rope. Doesn't seem for the 577 00:35:33,960 --> 00:35:41,960 Speaker 1: photographs to match the compression mark on the neck. Plus, 578 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:45,440 Speaker 1: Batton says there was no transfer of blood or skin 579 00:35:45,600 --> 00:35:48,879 Speaker 1: to that news, although Epstein had a bloody wound under 580 00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:51,640 Speaker 1: his chin. I think we need more information to be 581 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 1: able to arrive at a conclusion as to whether what 582 00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:58,919 Speaker 1: the corse of death is and whether it's a suicide 583 00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:03,520 Speaker 1: or or not. Bruce Johnson undersp has an autopsy question 584 00:36:03,560 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 1: go ahead for the doctor. Every in custody death that 585 00:36:06,840 --> 00:36:09,600 Speaker 1: I have had, there's been no autopsy pitches that we've 586 00:36:09,600 --> 00:36:11,680 Speaker 1: seen of the organs on the table or any of that, 587 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,359 Speaker 1: and I understand that that's fine, but we do need 588 00:36:14,400 --> 00:36:18,479 Speaker 1: to know if they filate him, and what that means 589 00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:23,000 Speaker 1: is every muscle group is cut and observed for damage 590 00:36:23,040 --> 00:36:25,040 Speaker 1: to the tissues. Will we'd be able to find out 591 00:36:25,360 --> 00:36:28,520 Speaker 1: if he has been hilated in that manner his forearms 592 00:36:28,600 --> 00:36:31,399 Speaker 1: top and bottom? What about it, Doctor Kendall Crown's. Oh, yes, 593 00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:35,600 Speaker 1: any death in custody of this nature. A full body filet, 594 00:36:36,160 --> 00:36:39,120 Speaker 1: which means you're cutting the skin of the back and 595 00:36:39,280 --> 00:36:41,640 Speaker 1: pulling it us pulling it back to expose all the 596 00:36:41,719 --> 00:36:45,239 Speaker 1: muscle groups is standard as part of that autopsy, and 597 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,680 Speaker 1: it should be part of the autopsy protocol that they 598 00:36:47,800 --> 00:36:50,360 Speaker 1: mentioned that they filate the body to Emily saw New 599 00:36:50,400 --> 00:36:52,800 Speaker 1: York Post journalists. He's been on the case from the 600 00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:57,440 Speaker 1: get go and covers that region, including all crime and juice. Emily, 601 00:36:58,760 --> 00:37:00,600 Speaker 1: nobody seems to want to go. I don't know, Lamb, 602 00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,600 Speaker 1: but I'm just telling you there are too many problems 603 00:37:04,719 --> 00:37:11,040 Speaker 1: with this scenario. One coincidence, sure, maybe two, okay, but 604 00:37:11,200 --> 00:37:15,320 Speaker 1: when there are three, four, ten, fifteen coincidences, that's just 605 00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,120 Speaker 1: too much. I mean, I agree with you, it is. 606 00:37:19,800 --> 00:37:22,239 Speaker 1: It's mind boggling the number of things that seem to 607 00:37:22,320 --> 00:37:25,320 Speaker 1: have gone wrong here, and then to look at the 608 00:37:25,440 --> 00:37:29,880 Speaker 1: cell itself, which is you know, one of one of 609 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:32,279 Speaker 1: your guests described I believe it a holiday, and after 610 00:37:32,440 --> 00:37:36,640 Speaker 1: check out the idea that someone who was on suicide 611 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: watch briefly removed inexplicably would have so many bedsheets in 612 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,719 Speaker 1: their room, and then to view the photos of what 613 00:37:44,880 --> 00:37:49,279 Speaker 1: appear to be you have little knotted nooses everywhere. It 614 00:37:49,600 --> 00:37:51,839 Speaker 1: doesn't make sense you also have I mean, he would 615 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:57,000 Speaker 1: have to tear the bedsheets, and the ligatures themselves that 616 00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:01,520 Speaker 1: we've seen all appear to be perfectly cut. We also, 617 00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:04,279 Speaker 1: upon information and belief, they think he was dead for 618 00:38:04,400 --> 00:38:07,320 Speaker 1: maybe two hours before he was discovered around sticks thirty, 619 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:10,200 Speaker 1: which would mean that he was one would think, very 620 00:38:10,320 --> 00:38:13,520 Speaker 1: visibly dead. I'm also if I mean, if I could 621 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,040 Speaker 1: direct a question with a doctor from the autopsy photos 622 00:38:16,080 --> 00:38:18,960 Speaker 1: I've seen, it appears that he had blood pulled in 623 00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,600 Speaker 1: his back, which even if you are hanging yourself from 624 00:38:22,640 --> 00:38:25,399 Speaker 1: a squatting or sitting position, you'd think the blood would 625 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:29,560 Speaker 1: be directed downward as opposed to pooling in the back. 626 00:38:29,719 --> 00:38:33,360 Speaker 1: Would would two hours be enough time? Because for me 627 00:38:33,560 --> 00:38:39,120 Speaker 1: that that almost is the most confusing bit of this. Wow, 628 00:38:39,719 --> 00:38:44,640 Speaker 1: that's an excellent point. Joe Scott Morgan, Now try your best, Okay, 629 00:38:44,680 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: I'm gonna pit you against doctor Kendall Crowns, because you 630 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,240 Speaker 1: know I'm putting two dogs in the ring. Joe Scott Morgan, 631 00:38:50,640 --> 00:38:53,120 Speaker 1: do you think it's within your power to break down 632 00:38:53,160 --> 00:38:55,359 Speaker 1: what she said and answer in simple terms? I mean, 633 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:58,160 Speaker 1: can you do that? Because I doubt Crowns can't because 634 00:38:58,200 --> 00:39:01,040 Speaker 1: he is an m d. But throwing it to you first, 635 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,719 Speaker 1: give it a try. Yeah, the coloration or the postmormal 636 00:39:04,760 --> 00:39:08,600 Speaker 1: avidity that you see between the shoulder body. What did 637 00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:11,279 Speaker 1: I just say? I just said, dubby down and there 638 00:39:11,360 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 1: you go, last chance, Morgan. The blood that has settled, 639 00:39:21,480 --> 00:39:24,000 Speaker 1: it can be quite consistent with him laying in a 640 00:39:24,080 --> 00:39:29,640 Speaker 1: tray overnight. If they put him in a face up position, 641 00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:31,759 Speaker 1: say just on the gurney. If you just leave him 642 00:39:31,800 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: in the gurney in the emergency room for a period 643 00:39:34,640 --> 00:39:36,640 Speaker 1: of time, then put his body in the cooler, the 644 00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,640 Speaker 1: blood is still going to settle into that depended area. 645 00:39:40,280 --> 00:39:44,320 Speaker 1: What would what is really needs to happen is that 646 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,600 Speaker 1: we need to see how deep, how deep the lividity was, say, 647 00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,600 Speaker 1: for instance, on the back side of his legs, it'll 648 00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,279 Speaker 1: it'll have a different appearance to it and maybe his 649 00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:57,239 Speaker 1: lower legs. That people are saying that this is a 650 00:39:57,360 --> 00:40:00,400 Speaker 1: suspension hanging because blood will settle in those areas. But 651 00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,719 Speaker 1: it's easily explained that he would have discoloration in his 652 00:40:03,840 --> 00:40:07,240 Speaker 1: back from the blood pooling. Okay, I kind of understood 653 00:40:07,280 --> 00:40:09,440 Speaker 1: part of that, doctor Kennel Crowns, but remember I'm just 654 00:40:09,560 --> 00:40:13,520 Speaker 1: a JD. You're the MD, and Jess got Morgan. He 655 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 1: sounds like a computer spinning out a lot of confusing terms, 656 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,000 Speaker 1: Joe Scott, I guess that was your best attempt to 657 00:40:19,040 --> 00:40:22,560 Speaker 1: be a regular guy, Doctor Kennel Crowns. Place help us. 658 00:40:22,760 --> 00:40:26,200 Speaker 1: So the lividity or the blood pooling that occurs after 659 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:32,880 Speaker 1: your heart stops beating, it can take. It starts immediately. 660 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,440 Speaker 1: The blood pooling will start immediately. But the problem is 661 00:40:35,560 --> 00:40:38,920 Speaker 1: is it doesn't become fixed in place or stuck in 662 00:40:39,040 --> 00:40:43,719 Speaker 1: place for several hours. So if you're and it is 663 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,439 Speaker 1: pulled by gravitational forces. So if you're upright when you die, 664 00:40:47,760 --> 00:40:50,600 Speaker 1: like in a suspension hanging, it will pull around your 665 00:40:50,680 --> 00:40:53,200 Speaker 1: legs and things like that. But if you're put on 666 00:40:53,320 --> 00:40:57,359 Speaker 1: your back, it will pull along your back, so it'll 667 00:40:57,360 --> 00:41:00,799 Speaker 1: become fixed after about eight to twelve hours to two 668 00:41:00,840 --> 00:41:04,400 Speaker 1: to three days. It can vary depending on many circumstances. 669 00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:08,720 Speaker 1: So he's found and then taken down from his position, 670 00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,400 Speaker 1: put on his back on a gurney. So that's going 671 00:41:11,480 --> 00:41:14,680 Speaker 1: to alter how the lividity looks no matter what happened. 672 00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: So you can't really look at lividity in this and 673 00:41:17,280 --> 00:41:20,759 Speaker 1: get any idea of how his body. But wouldn't hit right? 674 00:41:20,880 --> 00:41:23,200 Speaker 1: Let me let me think this through. So I think 675 00:41:23,239 --> 00:41:27,800 Speaker 1: what Emily is saying is that the pulling of the 676 00:41:27,880 --> 00:41:30,640 Speaker 1: blood in his lower in the in his back and 677 00:41:30,719 --> 00:41:33,719 Speaker 1: his buttocks regions suggest he had been there for a 678 00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:37,040 Speaker 1: longer period of time. But doctor Kennel Crowns had just 679 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:40,120 Speaker 1: got Morganer saying that would have happened because he was 680 00:41:40,200 --> 00:41:42,600 Speaker 1: on a gurney for a period of time. Emily, did 681 00:41:42,640 --> 00:41:44,640 Speaker 1: I get that right? That would be one of my 682 00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: questions as a delay person. Was just that to me? Okay, 683 00:41:49,200 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: you know what? You know? There's so many problems and 684 00:41:55,880 --> 00:42:00,239 Speaker 1: so many issues. Last question to Mark Furnish, Epstein's criminal 685 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,799 Speaker 1: defense lawyer, and boy, you got your hands full. Even 686 00:42:02,920 --> 00:42:06,240 Speaker 1: now he's dead and he still won't go away. Mark Furnish, 687 00:42:06,840 --> 00:42:10,520 Speaker 1: who would have benefited? Yeah, who would have benefited the 688 00:42:10,719 --> 00:42:17,880 Speaker 1: most from this? Being called officially a suicide. Well, Mancy, 689 00:42:18,160 --> 00:42:20,279 Speaker 1: I've been listening to this and I've been thinking about it. 690 00:42:21,960 --> 00:42:25,800 Speaker 1: I'm not Quincy. I wasn't there that night. None of 691 00:42:25,920 --> 00:42:29,200 Speaker 1: us knows what's happening. We're all operating, operating on the 692 00:42:29,320 --> 00:42:33,200 Speaker 1: basis of incomplete information. But this is what I can 693 00:42:33,280 --> 00:42:37,040 Speaker 1: tell you. There's no doubt that this was a tough case, 694 00:42:37,160 --> 00:42:40,600 Speaker 1: because Epstein had already been convicted three times over in 695 00:42:40,680 --> 00:42:44,320 Speaker 1: the court of public opinion. But by the same token, 696 00:42:44,920 --> 00:42:49,600 Speaker 1: I assure you that we had very substantial legal and 697 00:42:49,800 --> 00:42:54,520 Speaker 1: factual defenses to the case, legally based in part on 698 00:42:54,719 --> 00:42:59,080 Speaker 1: the prior non prosecution agreement he had signed, and mister 699 00:42:59,160 --> 00:43:03,320 Speaker 1: Epstein was away of all of these things, and it seems, 700 00:43:03,960 --> 00:43:07,160 Speaker 1: just speaking for me personally, it seems very very implausible, 701 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:10,640 Speaker 1: given the state of the case and the fact that 702 00:43:10,760 --> 00:43:15,200 Speaker 1: we had substantial legal and factual defenses and a triable case, 703 00:43:15,640 --> 00:43:19,640 Speaker 1: it seems implausible to me personally that he would have 704 00:43:19,680 --> 00:43:23,360 Speaker 1: taken his own life, particularly at that particular moment, just 705 00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,400 Speaker 1: at the infancy of the case. Stranger things have certainly happened, 706 00:43:28,080 --> 00:43:32,799 Speaker 1: certainly not ruling anything out, but the media, they didn't 707 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:35,879 Speaker 1: have the whole story of the case as I said 708 00:43:35,880 --> 00:43:39,719 Speaker 1: it was a hard case, no question about that. But 709 00:43:39,880 --> 00:43:43,799 Speaker 1: a case where we were in the fight, we're never 710 00:43:43,920 --> 00:43:45,600 Speaker 1: going to have it. We're never going to have the 711 00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,800 Speaker 1: whole story. And frankly, we still don't have the whole story. 712 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,920 Speaker 1: Nobody wants to prosecutors and the government is keeping it 713 00:43:52,000 --> 00:43:55,399 Speaker 1: a secret, and I don't like that. We wait as 714 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:59,640 Speaker 1: just as unfals. Nancy Grace Crime Story, signing off, goodbye 715 00:43:59,719 --> 00:43:59,879 Speaker 1: fan