WEBVTT - The Ship of Theseus 0:00:03.040 --> 0:00:05.840 Welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind from how Stuff 0:00:05.840 --> 0:00:14.600 Works dot com. Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 0:00:14.720 --> 0:00:17.520 My name is Robert lamp and I'm Joe McCormick and Robert. 0:00:17.720 --> 0:00:19.599 I know you're not a big fan of air travel, 0:00:19.840 --> 0:00:21.759 so I've got a I've got a question for you, 0:00:21.960 --> 0:00:25.040 all right, if you wanted to go to, say, somewhere 0:00:25.079 --> 0:00:26.360 on the other side of the world, you wanted to 0:00:26.400 --> 0:00:28.640 go to China or go to somewhere in Europe or something, 0:00:29.440 --> 0:00:32.440 and you still hate air travel as much as you did, 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.480 and I offered you the chance to go there instantly 0:00:35.760 --> 0:00:40.040 via a real life teleportation machine that would scan your 0:00:40.040 --> 0:00:42.400 body and figure out where all the atoms are and 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:45.240 then rebuild you in a teleporter pod on the other 0:00:45.280 --> 0:00:47.320 side of the globe wherever you wanted to go, and 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:50.159 you could be there instantly. Would you do it? Oh? 0:00:50.200 --> 0:00:52.720 This is a fun one, right, because what happens to 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:54.920 my my old body is it just destroyed and it's 0:00:54.960 --> 0:00:59.440 just incinerated on the spot. Well, incinerated has such negative vibes. 0:00:59.480 --> 0:01:03.080 I mean, it's not incinerated, it is turned into its 0:01:03.120 --> 0:01:07.119 atomic constituents, all right, And then I can't just keep 0:01:07.120 --> 0:01:09.880 both though I can't double sleeve and have have have 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:12.080 one of me here in the States and the end 0:01:12.120 --> 0:01:14.920 the other me is is in Asia somewhere. I don't know. 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.319 That seems like it would lead to bad sci fi 0:01:17.360 --> 0:01:19.760 action movie scenarios where one of you must eliminate the 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.920 other on the commands of the moon King. Well, you know, 0:01:23.000 --> 0:01:26.920 it's it's tempting still just to to cut out all 0:01:26.959 --> 0:01:29.759 of that air travel, because air travel can be taxing, 0:01:29.800 --> 0:01:33.880 it can be exhausting, um and yet at the same time, 0:01:34.080 --> 0:01:37.520 by virtue of being taxing and exhausting, I'm never quite 0:01:37.560 --> 0:01:41.000 the same person when I reached the other end of 0:01:41.080 --> 0:01:43.639 that flight, especially if it's a long flight, right, because 0:01:44.200 --> 0:01:47.800 I may enter into the flight being a little anxious, 0:01:47.880 --> 0:01:52.000 but maybe on some level like looking looking forward to 0:01:52.040 --> 0:01:54.400 that you know, long period in which I can just 0:01:54.440 --> 0:01:56.760 listen to music and read. And then on the other 0:01:56.840 --> 0:02:00.720 side then I am I'm potentially tired. I'm actually you know, 0:02:00.800 --> 0:02:05.360 blust out from you know Xanix and Steve Roach albums, um, 0:02:05.400 --> 0:02:08.600 you know, three hours plus. But I'm not quite the 0:02:08.639 --> 0:02:11.080 same person, right, I'm I've changed a little bit, so 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.040 I might as well be this teleported other self that 0:02:14.200 --> 0:02:16.799 is Uh, that is a diversion from who I am now. 0:02:17.120 --> 0:02:18.320 I don't know, when you get to the end of 0:02:18.360 --> 0:02:20.880 a flight, even if it's been unpleasant, do you really 0:02:20.919 --> 0:02:25.120 have the sensation that you have died. Uh? It depends 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:29.120 I guess how much turbulence I have to endure. I mean, 0:02:29.160 --> 0:02:31.800 that's always the question about the teleporter machine, right, I 0:02:31.800 --> 0:02:34.320 mean it's the question that everybody had to start wondering 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:37.240 about Star Trek. I guess. I guess there was probably 0:02:37.280 --> 0:02:41.080 a blissful period early in Star Trek history where nobody 0:02:41.120 --> 0:02:44.720 wondered if the teleporter machines killed you, But pretty soon 0:02:44.760 --> 0:02:47.520 people had to catch on, Right, is it just is 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.720 it just killing you and then making a copy of 0:02:50.760 --> 0:02:54.200 you somewhere else that will continue with your behaviors, but 0:02:54.320 --> 0:02:57.160 your life ends when you step in. Yeah. And it's 0:02:57.200 --> 0:02:59.640 just everyone's gotten to the point where they're cool with it. 0:02:59.680 --> 0:03:01.600 They just don't think about it. They just step into 0:03:01.639 --> 0:03:05.520 the teleporter and let's suite annihilation wash over them. I'm 0:03:05.520 --> 0:03:07.600 just I'm ready to die and make a copy of 0:03:07.639 --> 0:03:10.000 me somewhere. I don't know, it doesn't seem like people 0:03:10.000 --> 0:03:11.720 would be like that. I mean, most of the time 0:03:11.760 --> 0:03:16.680 people have the sensation that their experiences are continuous and 0:03:16.720 --> 0:03:20.040 they want it to continue to be continuous. I guess 0:03:20.040 --> 0:03:23.079 in track, as long as there's not an afterlife, you're good, right, 0:03:23.360 --> 0:03:25.880 So just never know, it's just blind leap of faith, right. 0:03:25.919 --> 0:03:27.680 And of course, I mean we have, as we've talked 0:03:27.720 --> 0:03:29.760 about on the show before, we have no idea how 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.679 the say the baton of consciousness is handed off from 0:03:33.720 --> 0:03:37.000 past self to present self, to future self and from 0:03:37.000 --> 0:03:39.520 one moment to the next. I mean, maybe maybe it's 0:03:39.560 --> 0:03:42.000 the case that every time you go under general anesthesia, 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:44.680 you die, and then a different person wakes up with 0:03:44.720 --> 0:03:46.960 all of your thoughts and memories. Maybe you are the 0:03:47.000 --> 0:03:49.720 copy that woke up after the last time you went 0:03:49.800 --> 0:03:52.520 under anesthesia. Maybe that happens every time you fall asleep. 0:03:52.560 --> 0:03:54.720 You'd really have no way to know. Yeah, that that 0:03:54.840 --> 0:03:58.640 is certainly a point when the curtain drops and who 0:03:59.000 --> 0:04:01.320 knows exactly what's going on with the set, right, or 0:04:01.320 --> 0:04:02.880 at least what's going on with the set is is 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:06.680 very much an area of interest to UH, to scientists 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:09.920 who study consciousness. Now here's another question for you, Joe, 0:04:10.480 --> 0:04:12.680 what if you were able to get ahold of a 0:04:12.760 --> 0:04:16.599 time machine? I'm not talking some sort of realistic uh, 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.159 you know, time machine like we've talked about discussing, you know, 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:23.640 black holes and whatnot. I'm talking to a causality wrecking 0:04:23.720 --> 0:04:29.120 Hollywood time machine, travel to the past machine, time cop 0:04:29.200 --> 0:04:32.000 travel to the past machine. That is rough. So if 0:04:32.080 --> 0:04:34.360 if I were to go back in time and meet 0:04:35.240 --> 0:04:38.760 a younger me, is that younger me really me? Is 0:04:38.800 --> 0:04:42.039 this to means? Because the younger means not physically identical 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.080 to me, It's mind and personality isn't identical to me. 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:47.479 So if if a Jean Claude van Damme were to 0:04:47.560 --> 0:04:51.039 spin kick me into my past self, would I even 0:04:51.080 --> 0:04:53.680 melt into a screaming pilot Jelley? Well, no, I don't 0:04:53.720 --> 0:04:55.640 think so, because I don't think travel into the past 0:04:55.720 --> 0:04:57.919 is possible. But even if it were possible, I assume 0:04:58.080 --> 0:04:59.919 that if you went into the past, you would just 0:05:00.160 --> 0:05:04.200 be like another person, like an identical twin, And identical 0:05:04.240 --> 0:05:06.599 twins don't melt each other into jelly when they collide, 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:08.760 at least at least as far as I know. I 0:05:08.800 --> 0:05:12.039 don't know, we've never seen it happen. Now, we have 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.600 a lot of wonderful of science fiction to utilize when 0:05:14.640 --> 0:05:18.440 we we tackle these these questions of identity and self 0:05:18.480 --> 0:05:22.120 and change. But they haven't always been around in the 0:05:22.160 --> 0:05:25.760 old days. You had to do depend on listen more 0:05:25.760 --> 0:05:31.080 traditional stories, uh myths for your your thought experiments. And 0:05:31.120 --> 0:05:34.000 in fact, one of the oldest thought experiments is that 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:36.480 we had that we have is uh is very much 0:05:36.520 --> 0:05:40.240 in this vein the ship of theseus, the ship of theseus. Right, 0:05:40.279 --> 0:05:43.240 So this is one of the most classic paradoxes in 0:05:43.279 --> 0:05:45.599 the history of philosophy. And it also goes to a 0:05:45.680 --> 0:05:48.120 thing that I think for some reason, it seems the 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:52.440 Greeks were particularly interested in, which was the nature and 0:05:52.560 --> 0:05:56.120 identity of things? I mean, of course, the nature and 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.960 identity of things is always a topic for philosophers to investigate, 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:04.160 but the ancient Greek philosophers seemed really concerned with what 0:06:04.400 --> 0:06:07.960 made a thing itself? What were the properties or the 0:06:08.120 --> 0:06:11.600 essences of a thing that gave it its identity? How 0:06:11.640 --> 0:06:14.560 did you know that you were really Robert? How did 0:06:14.600 --> 0:06:17.240 you Robert know that you earned that you had the 0:06:17.279 --> 0:06:21.560 merit of being called Robert? Why why wasn't something else Robert? 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:24.640 And so they had these ideas of essences and forms 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:28.080 and all this stuff is deeply concerned with what makes 0:06:28.120 --> 0:06:31.240 something itself and when you can call it what it is. 0:06:32.320 --> 0:06:34.480 You know, this makes up an interesting side question here. 0:06:34.480 --> 0:06:37.080 Do you think of yourself as Joe. That's a good question, 0:06:37.120 --> 0:06:39.160 and there are actually a couple of ways to answer it. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.640 I mean, I would say in when I step back 0:06:42.839 --> 0:06:45.240 and think of myself, I do. I guess I think 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:47.560 of myself as Joe as a self. You know, there's 0:06:47.600 --> 0:06:50.560 some there's some soul Joe out there that is the 0:06:50.600 --> 0:06:52.520 core of who I think I am and my main 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:55.240 qualities and all that. And of course you're not always 0:06:55.279 --> 0:06:57.480 the best judge of yourself, so other people could probably 0:06:57.520 --> 0:07:01.080 describe that person better than I could. But but there's 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:03.680 there's another sense of how you think of yourself in 0:07:03.720 --> 0:07:05.880 which I don't think I think of myself as Joe. 0:07:06.000 --> 0:07:09.720 Moment to moment. I think of myself as the most 0:07:09.840 --> 0:07:15.360 recent contents of my consciousness. So I'm just a moment 0:07:15.400 --> 0:07:17.880 to moment, I'm not Joe. Moment to moment, I am 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.720 whatever I'm thinking about. That's a good way of putting it. Well. 0:07:21.720 --> 0:07:24.720 When I try and answer the question myself, I think, well, 0:07:24.720 --> 0:07:26.360 I'm not I don't only think of myself as Robert. 0:07:26.360 --> 0:07:29.040 I think of myself kind of as the me. You know, 0:07:29.200 --> 0:07:32.600 I'm just I'm just this I in in a given 0:07:32.640 --> 0:07:36.320 scenario unless I am like you're you're saying essentially becoming 0:07:36.360 --> 0:07:38.720 the thoughts that I am having. And then I'm even 0:07:38.760 --> 0:07:41.560 further away from this when I when I'm forced to 0:07:41.560 --> 0:07:44.640 think of myself as Robert, it is because, uh, the 0:07:44.720 --> 0:07:48.080 external world is is making me do it, because that 0:07:48.200 --> 0:07:50.080 is what they call me, and that is what I 0:07:50.120 --> 0:07:52.640 continue to be called because I just, I guess, don't 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.560 feel passionately enough about it to change it. Well, one 0:07:55.600 --> 0:07:57.640 of the reasons we wanted to talk about the idea 0:07:57.640 --> 0:08:00.240 of identity in the ship of Theseus is that the 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:03.520 external world is increasingly going to be forcing us to 0:08:03.560 --> 0:08:07.320 think about questions like this because of new technological capabilities 0:08:07.320 --> 0:08:10.520 that are coming online. So this is yet another conversation 0:08:10.560 --> 0:08:12.520 that we're having, sort of in the wake of of 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.440 a conversation you saw in New York this year at 0:08:14.440 --> 0:08:17.160 the World Science Festival. But this is a great topic 0:08:17.240 --> 0:08:19.680 that's worth exploring from the bottom up. So I say 0:08:19.680 --> 0:08:22.080 we go all the way back to theseus and then 0:08:22.200 --> 0:08:26.120 work our way to the technological and scientific questions. All Right, well, 0:08:26.200 --> 0:08:29.400 let's start with Theseus. Then, who was a gimme? Theseus? 0:08:29.480 --> 0:08:32.520 He's essentially the flash Gordon of Greek mythology. You know, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:36.120 he's always the most important, but the least interesting character 0:08:36.240 --> 0:08:40.040 in a given story. That's my initial response anyway. But 0:08:40.120 --> 0:08:43.880 he also went into the maze and fought the minotaur, right, yeah, 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:46.440 not only thought the minotaur, but but what is he 0:08:46.520 --> 0:08:49.959 is the slayer of the minotaur, solver of the the 0:08:50.480 --> 0:08:54.280 Maniuan maze as well. Solver that's the corporate speak idea, right, 0:08:54.320 --> 0:08:56.960 you know, he didn't slay the minotar. He solved that problem. 0:08:57.600 --> 0:09:01.120 He was able to execute on on strategy, yes, but 0:09:01.120 --> 0:09:03.199 then he also escaped from the maze right by by 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.400 virtue of string if I remember. Oh that's right. Yeah, 0:09:06.559 --> 0:09:08.439 that's a good part, because it's one thing to kill 0:09:08.480 --> 0:09:10.559 the minotar. I mean, that's pretty impressive in and on itself, 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.040 But you still have to find your way out of 0:09:12.080 --> 0:09:15.640 the Manoan maze. How many minimally counterintuitive elements does the 0:09:15.679 --> 0:09:17.800 story of Theseus and the Minotaur have? Well, we have 0:09:17.840 --> 0:09:20.320 the minotaur for starters. Is that it is that the 0:09:20.320 --> 0:09:24.720 only part well the maze I suppose I suppose there 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:26.720 could be a real maze or is there something magic 0:09:26.720 --> 0:09:29.640 about the maze? Well, that's kind of the if I'm 0:09:29.760 --> 0:09:34.480 remembering correctly from past episode on on mazes and labyrinths. Um. 0:09:34.559 --> 0:09:36.520 One of the things about the maze is that depends 0:09:36.520 --> 0:09:38.800 on depends on which telling you're looking at. If you 0:09:38.800 --> 0:09:41.760 go back far enough, it's less of a maze. It 0:09:42.080 --> 0:09:45.120 could be something else, something less extravagant. But as the 0:09:45.240 --> 0:09:50.840 tradition builds, the maze becomes this this fabulous, fabulous dungeons 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:56.720 and dragons dungeon scenario, you know, which I love. But 0:09:56.720 --> 0:09:58.320 but I guess that's always something to keep in mind 0:09:58.360 --> 0:10:01.240 with with these tales, is it's not it fits in 0:10:01.240 --> 0:10:05.200 with what we're talking about here today. Mythological story is 0:10:05.240 --> 0:10:08.040 not this one thing that has been passed on. It 0:10:08.160 --> 0:10:09.920 is a thing that is built upon, a thing that 0:10:10.040 --> 0:10:12.840 changes over time. Ah well, well that brings us to 0:10:12.920 --> 0:10:15.760 the central concept, right the ship of Theseus, so to 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:19.000 quote from Plutarch in his his Lives, he wrote you 0:10:19.080 --> 0:10:23.200 about the lives of illustrious men, And so Plutarch wrote, quote, 0:10:23.600 --> 0:10:27.160 the ship wherein Theseus and the youth of Athens returned, 0:10:27.160 --> 0:10:31.000 had thirty oars and was preserved by the Athenians down 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.560 even to the time of Demetrius. Hilarious, for they took 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.920 away the old planks as they decayed, putting in new 0:10:38.040 --> 0:10:41.680 and stronger timber in their place, insomuch that this ship 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:45.559 became a standing example among the philosophers for the logical 0:10:45.640 --> 0:10:49.439 questions of things that grow, one side holding that the 0:10:49.480 --> 0:10:52.720 ship remained the same, and the other contending that it 0:10:52.760 --> 0:10:56.560 was not the same. So there's your classic dilemma on 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.800 the ship of Theseus. They have a ship. The ship, 0:10:59.840 --> 0:11:03.000 of course, like all ships, rots and falls away over time, 0:11:03.040 --> 0:11:05.160 so you've got to replace parts of it. Now, if 0:11:05.200 --> 0:11:09.520 you maintain this ship for so long that you've eventually 0:11:09.600 --> 0:11:13.880 replaced every original board in the ship and no original 0:11:13.920 --> 0:11:17.280 parts remain, is it the same ship? Is it still 0:11:17.280 --> 0:11:21.040 the ship of Theseus? Or has it become something else? Yeah, 0:11:21.520 --> 0:11:24.240 the hokey version of this is the or the hokey 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:27.959 variant is is Grandfather's Acts, which, imagine a number of 0:11:28.280 --> 0:11:30.559 our listeners have heard as well, Why is this hokey? 0:11:30.920 --> 0:11:32.920 It's just it's like it only has two parts to it, 0:11:33.000 --> 0:11:35.559 Like there's so the Grandfather's Acts is the idea. Hey, 0:11:35.559 --> 0:11:39.360 here's Grandfather's acts. But the handle rotted away, we had 0:11:39.360 --> 0:11:41.360 to replace that, and then also the blade brokes we 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:44.320 had to replace that. Both parts of this two part 0:11:44.400 --> 0:11:49.360 tool have been replaced. How can it possibly be grandfather's acts? Well, actually, 0:11:49.360 --> 0:11:51.840 don't think that's a hokey example, because I think that 0:11:51.960 --> 0:11:55.679 kind of thing really comes through when when you think about, say, uh, 0:11:56.240 --> 0:11:59.480 artifacts in a museum, A lot of historical artifacts in 0:11:59.520 --> 0:12:02.040 a museum them are not going to be exactly the 0:12:02.120 --> 0:12:06.679 same material constituents as when the artifact was first forged, 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:10.080 or especially a lot of like things that are not 0:12:10.160 --> 0:12:12.600 so much an artifact you can pick up in your hand, 0:12:12.640 --> 0:12:16.040 but like buildings and installations, a lot of these things 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.520 have been restored long ago in history. So you might 0:12:19.559 --> 0:12:22.560 see a thing in a museum that at some point 0:12:22.720 --> 0:12:26.280 somebody replaced parts of long ago. So are you seeing 0:12:26.320 --> 0:12:29.880 the real original thing? Yeah? You know, this makes me 0:12:29.920 --> 0:12:32.800 think of the Parthenon, which of course is in ruins 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:35.040 and has been in ruins for a little while. Now 0:12:35.120 --> 0:12:37.800 should we rebuild it exactly? But if you rebuild it, 0:12:37.920 --> 0:12:40.440 then yes, you make it look like the thing that 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.400 once was. But then, like you think, the thing that 0:12:43.440 --> 0:12:47.079 wants to think, and then you have to choose which 0:12:47.120 --> 0:12:49.560 era you want to recreate. You know, there's certain eras 0:12:49.559 --> 0:12:53.840 that they're certainly not talking about recreating. But but then, yeah, 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:56.480 once you've restored it, then you also lose the the 0:12:56.720 --> 0:12:59.600 iconic ruins that exist today that that in that in 0:12:59.640 --> 0:13:02.120 a way are a more I guess you could say, 0:13:02.240 --> 0:13:06.280 honest reminder of what was there before. Well, in a 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.360 way also, the ruins are part of what the Parthenon is. 0:13:09.800 --> 0:13:12.319 I mean, the Parthenon is a thing that exists over time. 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:15.120 And if you take away the ruins, you have in 0:13:15.160 --> 0:13:18.360 a way destroyed the Parthenon, even if you take them 0:13:18.400 --> 0:13:20.720 away to rebuild it. I think of that. It makes 0:13:20.760 --> 0:13:23.640 me think of the Colossi of Memnon that we discussed, 0:13:23.840 --> 0:13:26.520 which to remind everybody, these were These were a pair 0:13:26.640 --> 0:13:30.280 of of ancient coloss i. One of them fell over 0:13:30.360 --> 0:13:33.640 in ancient times. But then what's also restored poorly in 0:13:33.720 --> 0:13:36.640 ancient times? Uh so what do you do? Do you 0:13:36.679 --> 0:13:38.800 get up you decide one day that you're just gonna 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.040 restore them both to how they may have once looked? 0:13:42.400 --> 0:13:44.280 Do you restore them both to the ruins? I mean 0:13:44.280 --> 0:13:46.600 they are these are all a part of the essentially 0:13:46.640 --> 0:13:49.400 the life cycle of these statues over time. Yeah, so 0:13:49.440 --> 0:13:52.080 this question is actually meaningful. If you want people to 0:13:52.120 --> 0:13:56.080 be able to experience history, what is the thing that 0:13:56.240 --> 0:13:59.520 gives them the most authentic experience of history? Is it 0:13:59.640 --> 0:14:02.520 the de Haid version as it stands or is it 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:04.920 a restored version? And the same thing is true of 0:14:04.960 --> 0:14:06.960 the ship. If you want people to be able to 0:14:07.120 --> 0:14:09.720 see the Ship of Theseus because it has this great 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:13.360 historical significance, do you replace the rotting parts or do 0:14:13.400 --> 0:14:15.600 you just let it rot? And if you just let 0:14:15.640 --> 0:14:18.760 it rot, does it eventually disappear? Of course it does. 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:20.680 I think that's one of the reasons I like the 0:14:20.680 --> 0:14:24.720 Ship of Theseus more than I care for a grandfather's acts, 0:14:25.280 --> 0:14:27.840 because it's more gradual. There's so many more parts involved. 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:31.400 There's more of a question of at what point, uh, 0:14:31.440 --> 0:14:34.480 you know, is it more new than old? At which 0:14:34.520 --> 0:14:37.480 point in this gradual process does it does it lose 0:14:37.480 --> 0:14:39.520 its identity? Yeah, I see what you're saying. It's sort 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:44.160 of incorporates the paradox of the heap into the question 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:46.640 of whether a thing that is replaced in the same 0:14:46.680 --> 0:14:50.480 way as the original thing. Because you're you're you're asking 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.280 is there a transition point. At what point is you know, 0:14:53.320 --> 0:14:56.040 if fifty percent of the mass of the ship has 0:14:56.040 --> 0:14:58.680 been replaced, now, is it no longer the ship of Theseus? 0:14:58.680 --> 0:15:00.800 Like it's a dollar bill, you know, do you have 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.880 more than half of it to have it be worth 0:15:02.880 --> 0:15:05.960 a dollar? Yeah? Like this this comes up some more 0:15:05.960 --> 0:15:08.360 scenario comes up when we start thinking about species and 0:15:08.440 --> 0:15:12.280 does speciation. At what point does this cease to be 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:16.160 one species and truly become a different species. Well, this 0:15:16.280 --> 0:15:19.480 just highlights the idea, the fact that species is sort 0:15:19.520 --> 0:15:23.320 of an artificial distinction. I mean, it has some utility 0:15:23.360 --> 0:15:26.360 for biologists, but it's a species, not a thing you 0:15:26.400 --> 0:15:30.040 find in nature. It's just sort of a useful concept, 0:15:30.360 --> 0:15:34.040 a useful concept to describe something that is an ongoing process, 0:15:34.680 --> 0:15:37.280 which you know, ultimately, one of the questions we're asking 0:15:37.280 --> 0:15:39.160 here today is to what extent can the same be 0:15:39.200 --> 0:15:41.920 said about identity? Now, of course, lots of philosophers have 0:15:42.000 --> 0:15:44.160 explored the idea of the ship of Theseus. You know, 0:15:44.360 --> 0:15:47.400 philosophers get real worked up about whether something is what 0:15:47.520 --> 0:15:51.800 it is. So Plato's Cradlest Dialogue in some ways deals 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:55.480 with this concept. Um and Thomas Hobbes dealt with it too, right, 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.160 that's right. English philosopher Thomas Hobbes, who have fifteen eighty 0:15:59.240 --> 0:16:03.640 eight through sixty nine. He added another and in my opinion, 0:16:03.800 --> 0:16:07.120 very fun level of complexity to this thought experiment. He said, 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.040 what if you not only gradually replaced all of the 0:16:09.080 --> 0:16:11.200 parts of the Ship of Theseus, but what if you 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:14.120 also took all of those old parts and use them 0:16:14.120 --> 0:16:18.520 to assemble an identical boat. So you took the rotting timber, 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.280 you replaced that with goodwood, and then you took the 0:16:21.360 --> 0:16:24.280 rotting timber and made a new boat out of it. Right, 0:16:24.440 --> 0:16:27.120 And at this point, which is the real ship? Now 0:16:27.680 --> 0:16:31.120 one is remodeled, the other is reassembled. They're both the 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.560 same same ship, and yet clearly they are not the 0:16:33.600 --> 0:16:36.840 same ship. That is a good variation. I've also heard 0:16:36.840 --> 0:16:39.720 a variation of this where you like gradually steal some 0:16:39.800 --> 0:16:42.760 sort of masterpiece a piece at a time, and replace it. 0:16:43.200 --> 0:16:45.840 So if you were just wanted to steal, to say, 0:16:45.880 --> 0:16:49.120 the Ship of Theseus from a museum, and he sold 0:16:49.120 --> 0:16:51.400 it piece by piece, you know, swapping out for a 0:16:51.400 --> 0:16:55.440 counterfeit piece, then do you ultimately do what do you have? 0:16:55.560 --> 0:16:58.760 Did you actually steal the whole ship or in replace 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:01.160 it with a counterfeit or is that still the ship 0:17:01.160 --> 0:17:03.800 in there? I just got an awesome idea for yet 0:17:03.800 --> 0:17:07.040 another remake of the Thomas Crown affair. They steal the 0:17:07.080 --> 0:17:10.360 painting one centimeter at a time with razor blades. Yeah. Now, 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:12.320 and and you know another detail that's often thrown in 0:17:12.359 --> 0:17:15.960 as did theseus ever actually stand foot on this ship? 0:17:16.880 --> 0:17:19.480 That ends up playing into the identity of it. But 0:17:19.520 --> 0:17:22.399 back to Thomas Hobbs, so yeah, he's he's saying, you 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:23.840 know what, have you took the old pieces and you 0:17:23.920 --> 0:17:27.480 just reconstructed the ship? But if you you could take 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.840 that principle and extend it to other scenarios, less less 0:17:30.840 --> 0:17:33.720 contrived ones. Yeah, yeah, I mean he he ends up 0:17:33.720 --> 0:17:35.800 pondering this a bit more too. He says, wouldn't this 0:17:36.000 --> 0:17:38.600 also mean that nothing can be the same? A man 0:17:38.840 --> 0:17:41.280 standing would not be the same as he was when 0:17:41.280 --> 0:17:43.720 he was sitting. Water in a vessel would be another 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:45.639 example of this. It's in the vessel and then you 0:17:45.680 --> 0:17:48.359 pour it out. I mean, clearly it's the same water 0:17:48.840 --> 0:17:52.240 or is it the same water? Based on on this question, 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:56.720 he says, uh quote. Wherefore, the beginnings of individualization is 0:17:56.760 --> 0:17:59.639 not always to be taken either from matter alone or 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.440 from form alone. And all this gets down to is 0:18:03.520 --> 0:18:07.160 this idea of identity over time as opposed to identity 0:18:07.160 --> 0:18:10.440 in a single moment, you know, whatever a single moment is. 0:18:11.080 --> 0:18:13.600 And there's a lot of philosophical thought on this topic, 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.040 more than we can possibly summarize in this episode. Well, yeah, 0:18:17.240 --> 0:18:19.800 but I do think it's worth exploring the idea of 0:18:19.800 --> 0:18:24.840 thinking about um, maybe there, maybe what these paradoxes are doing, 0:18:24.960 --> 0:18:28.119 like the ship of theseus and Grandfather's acts and the 0:18:28.160 --> 0:18:32.600 water in a vessel is highlighting some fundamental flaw in 0:18:32.600 --> 0:18:36.679 our metaphysics. It's showing you hate you're generating paradox is 0:18:36.720 --> 0:18:40.359 because there's something wrong with the way you categorize things 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.280 in the world. It's the same way you might know 0:18:42.359 --> 0:18:45.120 there's something wrong with your physics theory, if it's requiring 0:18:45.119 --> 0:18:48.359 you to divide by zero or something. You know, something 0:18:48.400 --> 0:18:50.800 went wrong somewhere along here. Well, it really feels more 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.919 and more like it's a situation where our metaphysics is 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:58.439 largely about figuring out real time events, Like, you know, 0:18:58.880 --> 0:19:02.040 the soldier is unning at me, what should I do 0:19:02.200 --> 0:19:05.399 to avoid him? Uh? But then we we end up 0:19:05.400 --> 0:19:09.040 extrapolating that via mental time travel and memory. But we're 0:19:09.080 --> 0:19:11.200 taking it into the future. We're taking it into the past, 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.000 and we're considering knees and hiss and situations that are 0:19:15.000 --> 0:19:17.399 not identical to the present. That's a great point. But 0:19:17.720 --> 0:19:19.360 more than that, what would it mean for a thing 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:22.120 to be identical to the present? I mean, is there 0:19:22.160 --> 0:19:25.840 such a thing as an identical moment to the president 0:19:26.000 --> 0:19:28.760 or the identity of a thing? Even so, I want 0:19:28.760 --> 0:19:31.159 to talk about a cool article I saw. This was 0:19:31.160 --> 0:19:35.400 published in Aon magazine in November seventeen by kelso Vaira, 0:19:35.840 --> 0:19:38.760 and it's called which is more fundamental processes or Things? 0:19:38.800 --> 0:19:41.600 And it's just a quick, nice little explainer on the 0:19:41.640 --> 0:19:46.280 difference between what's known as substance metaphysics and process metaphysics. 0:19:46.640 --> 0:19:49.399 Now metaphysics, of course, it's just our attempt to understand 0:19:49.560 --> 0:19:52.800 the most basic level of reality or existence. It's the 0:19:52.840 --> 0:19:56.919 set of principles that's underneath physics. So physics, for example, 0:19:57.000 --> 0:19:58.479 might be able to tell to you that a thing 0:19:58.600 --> 0:20:01.200 is a certain mass and a certain velocity and so forth. 0:20:01.480 --> 0:20:04.160 Metaphysics might ask what does it mean for a thing 0:20:04.200 --> 0:20:06.800 to exist? Or what does it mean to have a 0:20:06.840 --> 0:20:11.680 property like mass or velocity. What are properties? And so, 0:20:11.760 --> 0:20:15.919 to quote from Vyera's article, quote, Western metaphysics tends to 0:20:15.960 --> 0:20:19.919 rely on the paradigm of substances. We often see the 0:20:19.920 --> 0:20:23.880 world as a world of things, composed of atomic molecules, 0:20:24.000 --> 0:20:29.440 natural kinds, galaxies. Objects are the paradigmatic mode of existence, 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:33.480 the basic building blocks of the universe. What exists exists 0:20:33.520 --> 0:20:36.600 as an object. That is to say, things are of 0:20:36.640 --> 0:20:40.440 a certain kind, They have some specific qualities and well 0:20:40.480 --> 0:20:44.520 defined spatial and temporal limits. And so you might use 0:20:44.560 --> 0:20:48.440 the example of like a cat, your cat, Robert, Now, 0:20:48.480 --> 0:20:51.040 your cat has existed for a certain amount of time. 0:20:51.160 --> 0:20:54.320 It has certain features that you can list that describe 0:20:54.320 --> 0:20:56.520 it physically, the color of its fur, the color of 0:20:56.560 --> 0:20:59.080 its eyes. I don't know how much it likes to 0:20:59.160 --> 0:21:01.480