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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff you Should Know, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Josh, and there's

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Speaker 2: Chuck and Jerry's here too, and this is Stuff you

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Speaker 2: should Know, a little overlooked historical figure edition.

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Speaker 3: Yes, yeah, boy, god, this guy. Could you could do

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Speaker 3: a ten parter on his life easily.

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Speaker 2: I mean, it's it's nuts. So we're talking about a

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Speaker 2: man named Eugene Francois Vidocq. He is known as the

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Speaker 2: father of criminology. Yeah, pretty much on the nose. That's

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Speaker 2: a really good title for him. Yeah, he's also an

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Speaker 2: inspiration for plenty of detective first early detective stories. He

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Speaker 2: was at one time as famous as Napoleon in France

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Speaker 2: and in Europe in general. He was in famous, incredibly wealthy,

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Speaker 2: and it was because he dedicated himself as a public

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Speaker 2: servant to the city of Paris to basically wipe out

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Speaker 2: crime as best he could at a time when Paris

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Speaker 2: was more overrun with crime than maybe it ever has

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Speaker 2: been in its history.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was. It was a time where the army

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Speaker 3: was very busy, I guess it is the best way

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Speaker 3: to say it, and like the army took up a

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Speaker 3: lot of the men who might normally be cops, and

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Speaker 3: they were preoccupied more with warring than with just taking

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Speaker 3: care of regular police work. And Vidok stepped up in

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Speaker 3: a big way, and like I said, like I had

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Speaker 3: to stop researching because I was like, we can't do

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Speaker 3: a twelve hour podcast on this guy.

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Speaker 2: Rightly, no, but you can definitely go down a rabbit

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Speaker 2: hole with him. And one of the reasons why is

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Speaker 2: because depending on the source you consult, he was either

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Speaker 2: a total scumbag, scoundrel or genuinely unjustly slandered. I leaned

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Speaker 2: toward the second one, or closer to the second one. Obviously,

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Speaker 2: no one's perfect, but I do think that the stuff

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Speaker 2: that is really questionable or makes him into a questionable

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Speaker 2: person or character, I think is remnants of his political

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Speaker 2: rivals smearing his name so well that it still is

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Speaker 2: around today.

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Speaker 3: Here's what I think is that he was, and as

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Speaker 3: you'll see, started off as a scoundrel and a criminal,

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Speaker 3: later changed his tune because I think it was beneficial

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Speaker 3: for him to not be in prison all the time,

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Speaker 3: and I think he tried to do the right thing,

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Speaker 3: but also like a little bit of that that scoundrel

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Speaker 3: lived within him, but he also had people that had

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Speaker 3: it out for him. I think he's a complex guy.

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Speaker 3: I don't think he did a one to eighty and

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Speaker 3: was like and now I am pure. I think he

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Speaker 3: I think he, you know, did what was best for

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Speaker 3: him usually, but also wanted to put criminals behind bars

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Speaker 3: and make a few bucks while he did it.

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Speaker 2: So I have a counterpoint to that, but I'll bring

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Speaker 2: it up when we get to that part. But we

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Speaker 2: should tell everybody. One of the reasons Vidock is famous

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Speaker 2: if you have heard of him, is because not only

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Speaker 2: was he the father of criminology, he started out as

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Speaker 2: a genuine bona fide criminal who was serving time in prison,

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Speaker 2: would escape prison, and then one day he basically switched

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Speaker 2: sides from an outsider's standpoint and became like the top

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Speaker 2: cop in all of France while he was.

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Speaker 3: Serving Yeah, a good way to stay out of jail.

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Speaker 2: For sure. Well let's start. Let's start with his early life, right,

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Speaker 2: because he was unquestionably a troublemaker, a hot head, and

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Speaker 2: just a handful. You could definitely say his parents actually

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Speaker 2: let him get arrested when they stole from him once.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean you would classify as a juvenile delinquent today,

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Speaker 3: But it wasn't because he was some you know, poor

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Speaker 3: kid from the poor streets who had to steal to survive.

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Speaker 3: His parents did pretty well, they had a successful bakery

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Speaker 3: and how do you pronounce that rs? I think so yeah,

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Speaker 3: A R R A S. And it seemed rather middle class.

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Speaker 3: But like you said, he he stole from his parents.

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Speaker 3: He was. He was a scoundrel. He pick pocketed. He

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Speaker 3: was from very early on seemed like he was a

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Speaker 3: bit of a ladies man and he would you know,

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Speaker 3: this was sort of his early life until he ran

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Speaker 3: away literally to join the circus, right like people actually

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Speaker 3: did that. And he did that for a few months

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Speaker 3: until he didn't like the work. Then he would eventually

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Speaker 3: work for a Punch and Judy street show, which is

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Speaker 3: if you guys are don't know who Punch and Judy were,

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Speaker 3: they were They were puppets.

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Speaker 2: Right, yes they were. Punch was a wife battering puppet

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Speaker 2: and Judy was the abused wife. They got into hysterical

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Speaker 2: right yeah, really violent fights all the time, but it

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Speaker 2: was puppets and kids thought it was hilarious. And he

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Speaker 2: worked for that show and he had to. I guess

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Speaker 2: he got fired in a way.

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Speaker 3: I think so. I think as a fifteen year old

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Speaker 3: he said some kind of a tryst with the wife

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Speaker 3: of the guy who was running the thing. Yes, so

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Speaker 3: that's not very specific. It says that they were embracing,

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Speaker 3: so who knows what that means.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, but it definitely goes to underscore a lot of

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Speaker 2: things about him. He was very much into the ladies.

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Speaker 2: He didn't mind if it was someone else's lady, if

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Speaker 2: you were someone else's lady. And he was willing to

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Speaker 2: put himself in great danger and at great personal risk

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Speaker 2: to satisfy his own wants, needs, desires.

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Speaker 3: That's a very nice way to say it.

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Speaker 2: So he moved back home, he went back to ras

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Speaker 2: or Us and his I don't know if we said

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Speaker 2: his dad was a baker and his parents were totally normal,

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Speaker 2: fine parents. But again they basically when he was caught

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Speaker 2: stealing from them when he was thirteen, they said, okay,

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Speaker 2: you're going to jail. When you moved back home after

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Speaker 2: the circus and the Punch and Judy show, he wasn't

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Speaker 2: even sixteen yet, and they said, all right, you're going

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Speaker 2: to join the army whether you like it or not.

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Speaker 2: They shipped him off to the army. Well he was fifteen,

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Speaker 2: that's how bad a kid he was.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he's drinking, getting fights and womanizing, and

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Speaker 3: you know, he's just one of those kids. They'd probably

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Speaker 3: just say today that he was I don't know, what

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Speaker 3: would you call it hot head? Yeah, teenage hothead. Yeah,

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Speaker 3: he'd like to steal things sometimes.

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Speaker 2: Right, and embrace other people's wives exactly. So he did

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Speaker 2: serve in the army. Apparently he was in battle a

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Speaker 2: few times because this was a post post French Revolution,

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Speaker 2: and I think he may have been in the army

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Speaker 2: when Napoleon first took power. At the very least, France

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Speaker 2: was on all sorts of advance. Like you said, it

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Speaker 2: had drained them their population of potential police people policemen,

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Speaker 2: and so he fought in a few battles. He definitely

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Speaker 2: saw some action and it was fine. But I think

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Speaker 2: probably the biggest takeaway was that he learned how to fence.

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Speaker 2: He became a very great fencer, and that served him

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Speaker 2: well because he was also known to get into duels

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Speaker 2: with people. And he actually had to desert the army

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Speaker 2: because he was coming up on charges because he challenged

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Speaker 2: a sergeant to a duel. The sergeant refused him, and

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Speaker 2: he smacked the sergeant around, and that is not something

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Speaker 2: you do in any army at any period of time.

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Speaker 2: And so he took off and was now a desert

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Speaker 2: ye from the army. And this is when his actual

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Speaker 2: criminal life really began. Everything else was petty, in temperate,

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing. This is like, Okay, I'm a

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Speaker 2: deserter from the army. I need to support myself somehow.

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Speaker 2: I guess I have to turn to a life of crime.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, he actually deserted a few times. I don't think

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Speaker 3: he was super popular among his peers there. Sure he

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Speaker 3: had a habit for just sort of not being there

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Speaker 3: all of a sudden when they called roll call. But eventually,

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Speaker 3: when he finally left for good, he joined up with

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Speaker 3: what was called the Rolling Army. You want to do

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Speaker 3: the French there, you're a French guy.

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Speaker 2: It was the Army Rulan.

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Speaker 3: Okay, the Army Rulant, which was everything I saw about

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Speaker 3: this was that it was a side army. I think

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Speaker 3: it was a couple of thousand men, and that they

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Speaker 3: they sort of just did what they wanted. They were

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Speaker 3: fake uniforms. They plundered the countryside they gave themselves fake orders,

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Speaker 3: and I'm not exactly sure what real army work they did.

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Speaker 3: I'm sure they did, right.

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Speaker 2: I don't think so, I think or was it all just.

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Speaker 3: A thing to like? I think they're under in pillage.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's what that's my take. I don't think they

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Speaker 2: were officially sanctioned at all.

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Speaker 3: Well, no, they weren't officially sanctioned, but I just I

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Speaker 3: figured they were. I thought that the real army might

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Speaker 3: have used them at times.

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Speaker 2: I don't know, I don't know enough about it. It's possible.

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Speaker 2: I mean, you got a couple thousand people with guns

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Speaker 2: ready to fight. Why not?

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Speaker 3: Yeah? Well, I know they worked fake uniforms. And he

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Speaker 3: made up a rank for himself and took a alias.

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Speaker 3: He was Lieutenant Rousseau, and eventually even made himself captain.

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Speaker 3: I don't know why I didn't start off as captain

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Speaker 3: as long as he's making things up.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he kind of sold himself short there, didn't he.

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Speaker 3: Well, he became captain eventually, so he ended up.

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Speaker 2: In Paris eventually after he left the army. Roulant and

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Speaker 2: this is around seventeen ninety five. The French Revolution had

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Speaker 2: been successful. But there's something to understand about it. Like,

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Speaker 2: one of the reasons Paris was so over him with

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Speaker 2: crime was not just that there was a lack of

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Speaker 2: potential candidates for the police. There was also like the

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Speaker 2: threat of revolution and regime change was constant during these decades.

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Speaker 2: It wasn't like the French Revolution happened and it was over.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a mess.

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Speaker 2: It was a mess. First Napoleon comes along is like, hey,

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Speaker 2: I'll take over from here. I'm now emperor. He he

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Speaker 2: ran France for a really long time, for a decade

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Speaker 2: or something like that. Then he was deposed and a

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Speaker 2: new king was installed, a new king was installed. After that,

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Speaker 2: that king was just deposed and a new citizen king

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Speaker 2: was put into place. And then around that time finally

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Speaker 2: our our protagonist dies. But like throughout all this time,

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Speaker 2: like there there's a lot of tension and conflict in

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Speaker 2: the country, and because everybody was preoccupied with that stuff,

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Speaker 2: crime was allowed to flourish. It was a really dangerous

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Speaker 2: lawless time. It particularly in Paris, because a lot of

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Speaker 2: people were also coming to Paris looking for opportunity and

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Speaker 2: that kind of thing, and so it was a just

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Speaker 2: to put that in your in your pipe and hold

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Speaker 2: it in your hat for later, because that's that's that's

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Speaker 2: this is the backdrop that he shows up in Paris against.

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Speaker 3: That's right. So he ends up in Paris during this

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Speaker 3: very tumultuous time. Great time to be a criminal in Paris. Sure,

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Speaker 3: you know very I don't know about easy to get

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Speaker 3: away with stuff, but you know, you could be a

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Speaker 3: pretty successful criminal at the time. And that's what he did.

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Speaker 3: It sort of threw his twenties and into his thirties.

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Speaker 3: He was in and out of prison, kind of off

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Speaker 3: and on because of various schemes. It was never like,

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Speaker 3: I'm not going to say it was victimless, but it

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Speaker 3: was never like violent crimes. It seems like he was

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Speaker 3: like a really good, really good forging documents and things

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Speaker 3: like that, and all of his schemes seemed to be

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Speaker 3: kind of like on the more intelligent side.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he was definitely intelligent, yes.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, So it's not like he was walking up and

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Speaker 3: bonking someone on the head and stealing their purse. He

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Speaker 3: graduated to more elaborate kind of you know, forgeries and

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Speaker 3: things like that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and he also he was a criminal with a heart.

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Speaker 2: He landed in this one prison. Oh what is it

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Speaker 2: called Bagno, I believe.

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Speaker 3: Oh was that where he the the bread.

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Speaker 2: Guy was, Yes, So so this is a really good

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Speaker 2: example of that. He Yeah, he was finally caught and

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Speaker 2: sentenced for I think just three months in prison, just

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Speaker 2: three months. But while there he was so moved by

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Speaker 2: a guy who had been given six years for stealing

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Speaker 2: grain to feed his family, who, by the way, the

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Speaker 2: bread guy, right, people are confused. So he was so

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Speaker 2: moved by that and thought that it was so unjust

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Speaker 2: that he'd been given six years. He forged documents that

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Speaker 2: that that he signed as like the head of I

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Speaker 2: think the prison or the police as saying like this

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Speaker 2: man is to be released, his his sentence has been commuted,

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Speaker 2: and the guy made it made made off like he

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Speaker 2: was released. And I think it took a few months

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Speaker 2: for the whole thing to finally be found out. But

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Speaker 2: I think the doc was in jail at the time

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Speaker 2: when they did find out, and they gave him eight

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Speaker 2: years for that for forging papers that released a man

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Speaker 2: who had been given six years for stealing grain.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so this time he went to a hard labor prison.

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Speaker 3: Like you said, it was called a I don't know

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Speaker 3: how it's pronounced. I think they started in Italy under

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Speaker 3: a different name, but B A G n O the

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Speaker 3: bag no, the bagno, like if you've ever seen the

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Speaker 3: movie I looked into these, the movie Papion. The island

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Speaker 3: prison they were on that was one, and I think

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Speaker 3: it was just like a very tough It was like

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Speaker 3: the toughest of the tough prisons, hard labor, usually in shackles,

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Speaker 3: very hard to escape from. Yet he did manage to

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Speaker 3: escape even from here, and I think he escaped as

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Speaker 3: a sailor and was caught and put back and then

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Speaker 3: escaped again posing as a nun. So as you will

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Speaker 3: see later, he was, in fact a master of disguise,

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Speaker 3: was very good at it, and if he was able

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Speaker 3: to pass himself off as a nun, clearly pretty good

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Speaker 3: at it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And it's really something that he escaped not just

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Speaker 2: once but twice from a galley prison. Because they were

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Speaker 2: originally before they moved them onto land, they were ships,

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Speaker 2: giant ships with tons of oars sticking out of them,

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Speaker 2: and you would be sentenced to hard labor rowing those

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Speaker 2: oars day in and day out. It was a really

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Speaker 2: rough place to spend eight years, and it would also

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Speaker 2: be a really difficult place to escape from, but he

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Speaker 2: did twice. So he started to get a reputation as

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Speaker 2: someone who no prison could hold in addition to being

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Speaker 2: a master of disguise. And when you start kind of

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Speaker 2: doing stuff like that, your name gets around and you

267
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Speaker 2: start to become a bit of a legend among not

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Speaker 2: just the criminals, but also like law enforcement as well.

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Speaker 2: So his star is starting to rise. And I think,

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Speaker 2: as we reached this point, Chuck, it's time for message break.

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Speaker 1: What do you think as we reached this point? I agree?

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Speaker 3: All right, So where we left off, Vidoc has escaped

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Speaker 3: prison a couple of times. He was a juvenile delinquent.

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Speaker 3: He was a delinquent into his twenties and into his thirties,

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Speaker 3: through his twenties and into his thirties, and then finally

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Speaker 3: ends up back in Paris. He was trying to get

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Speaker 3: pulled into the criminal underworld again because he was well known,

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Speaker 3: and he was kind of in a bad spot because

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Speaker 3: if he said no, he would get blackmailed by these

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Speaker 3: low lifes and threaten to turn him in because he

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Speaker 3: was a fugitive at this point still. So finally he

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Speaker 3: was like, all right, what am I doing with my life,

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Speaker 3: all this on the run stuff, on the lamb in

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Speaker 3: disguise as a nun. This is for the birds. In

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Speaker 3: eighteen oh nine, he said, I'm going to go to

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Speaker 3: the cops and I'm gonna say I would like to

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Speaker 3: turn myself in and make myself well, sort of turn

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Speaker 3: myself in. What he really wanted to do was turn

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Speaker 3: into a police informant and get out of jail. And

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Speaker 3: they said, hey, great idea, but you're gonna do that

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Speaker 3: for at least a little while in jail.

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Speaker 2: Right, that is, I mean that sounds like, oh that's cool.

293
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Speaker 2: That was an incredibly dangerous position to put himself in

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Speaker 2: for two straight years.

295
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Speaker 3: This still is.

296
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Speaker 2: He was an sure he was an informant, a volunteer

297
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Speaker 2: informant for the police, and he would he would inform

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Speaker 2: on anybody. And so I was saying earlier that I

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Speaker 2: would bring up a counterpoint to the idea that it

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Speaker 2: was just completely self serving from what I saw. Another

301
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Speaker 2: explanation is that he never actually thought of himself as

302
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Speaker 2: a criminal. He thought of himself as an outlaw by circumstance,

303
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Speaker 2: like he had made a lot of bad decisions. He

304
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Speaker 2: knew that and that had made him run a foul

305
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Speaker 2: of the law. But he wasn't a criminal, Like, that's

306
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Speaker 2: not how he wanted to support himself. He didn't have

307
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Speaker 2: the heart of a criminal, and so this was a

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00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:29,399
Speaker 2: way to basically say, I don't want to be a

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Speaker 2: criminal anymore. I don't want to be associated with these people.

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Speaker 2: I want to change sides, and this is how I'm

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Speaker 2: going to try to do it. Or another way to

312
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Speaker 2: look at it is that he was he was he

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Speaker 2: finally grew up essentially and realized like, okay, this is

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Speaker 2: this is not okay. I need to I need to

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Speaker 2: change things, and I've worked myself into such a deep hole.

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Speaker 2: This is the alternative to just going like, okay, I'm

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Speaker 2: going to become a criminal from now. Those were his choices.

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Speaker 2: That's how deep the Holy Doug was. And the thing is, Chuck,

319
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Speaker 2: no matter how you interpret whether it was a selfish act,

320
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Speaker 2: whether it was you know, you know, his destiny, whatever,

321
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Speaker 2: that shows a remarkable amount of initiative to do that.

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Speaker 2: Like he said, I'm not going to be a criminal.

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Speaker 2: I'm not going to turn a life crime. I'm going

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Speaker 2: to basically put myself in the hands of cops who

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Speaker 2: hate me and see if they will have me as

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Speaker 2: one of their own.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I think he probably grew up. I don't know that.

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Speaker 3: I buy that. If he had come from nothing, I

329
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Speaker 3: could buy that. But he came from a pretty good

330
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Speaker 3: He wasn't forced into committing crimes to survive.

331
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Speaker 2: No, But I think that's why he didn't see himself

332
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Speaker 2: as a criminal, because he had made choices or whatever.

333
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Speaker 2: He wasn't a criminal. He just didn't see himself like

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Speaker 2: that from what I saw.

335
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Speaker 3: So he made choices to commit crimes, but didn't see

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Speaker 3: himself as a criminal.

337
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Speaker 2: Yes, okay, yes, he made choices that were that were criminal,

338
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Speaker 2: but he wasn't making choices like to do crime. That

339
00:18:57,920 --> 00:19:00,959
Speaker 2: wasn't as his aim was for crime. He was just

340
00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,600
Speaker 2: making bad decisions that were criminal, and that made him

341
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Speaker 2: a criminal in the eyes of society. I'm not saying

342
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Speaker 2: like it was. It didn't make him a criminal. He

343
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Speaker 2: just didn't think of himself as a criminal. To him,

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Speaker 2: there was a differentiation between people who commit crimes and criminals.

345
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Speaker 2: He did not think very highly of criminals, like career criminals,

346
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Speaker 2: somebody who would slit your throat for your wallet or

347
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Speaker 2: something like that.

348
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Speaker 3: That Elvis was a drug addict, but Elvis was on pills,

349
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Speaker 3: and he looked down on real drug addicts that were

350
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Speaker 3: taking hard drugs like heroin.

351
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Speaker 2: It's funny you bring that up, because I think of

352
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Speaker 2: this same him turning over himself to the police to say, hey,

353
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Speaker 2: I want to inform for you as very similar to

354
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Speaker 2: Elvis showing up at the White House and volunteering to

355
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Speaker 2: be an undercovered narc agent for Nixon.

356
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Speaker 3: Oh, totally yeah. And I think they're both pretty hypocritical.

357
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Speaker 2: For sure. So for sure, Yeah, that's the thing. I

358
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:57,199
Speaker 2: don't want to give the impression that I'm just like

359
00:19:57,320 --> 00:20:00,760
Speaker 2: an apologist for Vidalk. I just think that there is

360
00:20:00,800 --> 00:20:04,119
Speaker 2: an alternative explanation, and one of them is that he

361
00:20:04,160 --> 00:20:06,399
Speaker 2: didn't see himself as a criminal even though he was

362
00:20:06,440 --> 00:20:08,520
Speaker 2: a criminal. Oh, I totally agree.

363
00:20:08,760 --> 00:20:11,840
Speaker 3: I totally believe that, like there are nothing but innocent

364
00:20:11,880 --> 00:20:14,760
Speaker 3: people in prison. If he asked them, okay, you know,

365
00:20:15,080 --> 00:20:18,720
Speaker 3: sure that was what's it called chawshank?

366
00:20:19,680 --> 00:20:21,240
Speaker 2: Oh? Is that who that was? Yeah?

367
00:20:21,280 --> 00:20:24,120
Speaker 3: I remember that great scene when they were at lunch

368
00:20:24,200 --> 00:20:26,200
Speaker 3: or whatever, when they were all saying like like, hey,

369
00:20:26,200 --> 00:20:27,760
Speaker 3: none of us did it, Like, no one in here

370
00:20:27,800 --> 00:20:29,239
Speaker 3: did any of the crimes that we're in here. For

371
00:20:30,080 --> 00:20:35,240
Speaker 3: it's pretty funny anyway. So he for two years worked

372
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Speaker 3: in that prison, like you said, just what he would

373
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Speaker 3: do was pass on information to his girlfriend, who would

374
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Speaker 3: get it to the police chief of Paris, and it

375
00:20:43,800 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 3: was going really well, apparently so well that at some

376
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Speaker 3: point he helped Napoleon's Empress Josephines catch the person who

377
00:20:53,800 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 3: stole her emerald necklace, and so he was on Napoleon's

378
00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:00,160
Speaker 3: radar at least for a moment. I'm not sure how

379
00:21:00,400 --> 00:21:04,400
Speaker 3: much Napoleon hung onto that, but it was a sort

380
00:21:04,400 --> 00:21:06,880
Speaker 3: of a feather in his cap as an informant for sure.

381
00:21:06,880 --> 00:21:09,640
Speaker 2: For sure. And that police chief was named Jean Henry

382
00:21:09,880 --> 00:21:13,080
Speaker 2: or Henri not with an eye but a why so

383
00:21:13,160 --> 00:21:16,959
Speaker 2: I'm not sure how it's pronounced exactly, but he was.

384
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:22,960
Speaker 2: He was finally smitten. After two years with Vidoc, he

385
00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:25,919
Speaker 2: was all in for this guy. So he said, Okay,

386
00:21:26,400 --> 00:21:30,400
Speaker 2: we're gonna let you out, but this is an unofficial release,

387
00:21:30,480 --> 00:21:33,280
Speaker 2: like you're actually not going to get pardoned or released

388
00:21:33,320 --> 00:21:37,160
Speaker 2: on paper, because we need you as a police informant.

389
00:21:37,200 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 2: What they used to call thief takers. They were kind

390
00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,400
Speaker 2: of like the predecessors to bounty hunters, where anybody could

391
00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:45,800
Speaker 2: go catch thieves and bring them in for money. He

392
00:21:46,000 --> 00:21:50,720
Speaker 2: was an undercover version of that, and that's new, brand new.

393
00:21:50,840 --> 00:21:53,760
Speaker 2: They did not have undercover police at the time. So

394
00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:58,600
Speaker 2: Vidoc has basically carved out a totally unique, peculiar place

395
00:21:58,640 --> 00:22:01,960
Speaker 2: for himself in the Paris Police. And it's largely because

396
00:22:02,800 --> 00:22:08,080
Speaker 2: Jean Henry believes in him and sees also the value

397
00:22:08,280 --> 00:22:12,960
Speaker 2: in him going back into the underworld and informing on them,

398
00:22:13,040 --> 00:22:16,160
Speaker 2: not just from jail, but like from the actual outside

399
00:22:16,520 --> 00:22:17,480
Speaker 2: crime world.

400
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Speaker 3: And John Henry also said stay away from my.

401
00:22:20,840 --> 00:22:24,160
Speaker 2: Wife exactly, I better not find you in bracing here.

402
00:22:25,720 --> 00:22:29,920
Speaker 3: So as a cis what you would call it today,

403
00:22:29,960 --> 00:22:33,480
Speaker 3: I guess he was doing his thing. He knew the

404
00:22:33,520 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 3: people very well, he knew his old haunts. He was

405
00:22:38,880 --> 00:22:43,560
Speaker 3: not unwilling to just hand over his friends and former

406
00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:48,720
Speaker 3: sort of cohorts in the thievery world in the underworld.

407
00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,240
Speaker 3: He would do that at a moment's notice. Dave Ruse

408
00:22:52,280 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 3: helped us out with this. He found one case where

409
00:22:54,640 --> 00:22:58,800
Speaker 3: he was actually in on a robbery, helped planet, helped

410
00:22:58,880 --> 00:23:02,359
Speaker 3: execute the robbery, and then when the cops come, he

411
00:23:02,400 --> 00:23:05,600
Speaker 3: pretended like he had been shot, so he could you know,

412
00:23:05,680 --> 00:23:06,600
Speaker 3: get out of the whole thing.

413
00:23:07,080 --> 00:23:10,159
Speaker 2: Well, no, so that the the the robbers who were

414
00:23:10,200 --> 00:23:12,480
Speaker 2: there wouldn't know that he was a police informant. They

415
00:23:12,520 --> 00:23:15,000
Speaker 2: would mean it was yeah. So and by the way,

416
00:23:15,040 --> 00:23:19,040
Speaker 2: that that that burglar, the robber Saint Germain, was a

417
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:23,320
Speaker 2: really wanted man. He was also a murderer and it

418
00:23:23,359 --> 00:23:28,000
Speaker 2: was actually a pretty interesting, I guess project that he

419
00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 2: undertook and got the guy. But and we didn't say. Also,

420
00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,200
Speaker 2: the reason he was able to go back into the

421
00:23:35,280 --> 00:23:39,760
Speaker 2: underworld again was because the police staged an escape, like

422
00:23:39,880 --> 00:23:42,240
Speaker 2: they allowed him to escape to make it look like

423
00:23:42,280 --> 00:23:44,560
Speaker 2: he'd broken out of prison, not that they'd released him,

424
00:23:44,600 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 2: so that he would seem like it was Vidalk who'd

425
00:23:47,520 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 2: broken out of prison again and now he was back

426
00:23:49,720 --> 00:23:50,879
Speaker 2: in the Paris underworld.

427
00:23:51,640 --> 00:23:54,959
Speaker 3: That's right. So this underworld at the time was it

428
00:23:55,000 --> 00:23:58,720
Speaker 3: was a Paris where they policed in a in a

429
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:02,639
Speaker 3: way that wasn't an They were confined to districts, and

430
00:24:02,760 --> 00:24:05,040
Speaker 3: if you were in a district, you couldn't go to

431
00:24:05,119 --> 00:24:08,920
Speaker 3: another district to investigate. You had to stick to your district.

432
00:24:09,880 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 3: The criminals at the time knew this. They were savvy

433
00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:15,639
Speaker 3: and so they would commit crimes not near where they lived,

434
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 3: which made it a lot easier to get away with stuff.

435
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:20,960
Speaker 3: And so Vedock comes in and says, hey, I was

436
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,600
Speaker 3: one of these guys. You guys are dumb and how

437
00:24:24,640 --> 00:24:27,040
Speaker 3: you're doing things, because all you have to do is

438
00:24:27,160 --> 00:24:29,199
Speaker 3: go on the other side of Paris to commit a

439
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,119
Speaker 3: crime and you're probably going to get away with it

440
00:24:31,160 --> 00:24:33,960
Speaker 3: unless you're caught red handed. And so what you guys

441
00:24:33,960 --> 00:24:37,760
Speaker 3: should do is continue to allow me to work undercover

442
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:39,840
Speaker 3: and know it's not something you've ever done, because you

443
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:43,280
Speaker 3: like to wear these ridiculous uniforms that identify you from

444
00:24:43,280 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 3: a mile away, and get rid of these districts and

445
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 3: allow cops to investigate wherever they need in order to

446
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:54,520
Speaker 3: solve a crime. And they said okay. In eighteen twelve

447
00:24:55,200 --> 00:24:59,159
Speaker 3: they made Vedock chief of the security brigade in French

448
00:24:59,200 --> 00:24:59,880
Speaker 3: it is the what.

449
00:25:00,400 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: Were god de la surtee fantastic?

450
00:25:04,880 --> 00:25:07,080
Speaker 3: And they said go hire some men, and he said,

451
00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:10,359
Speaker 3: all right, I'm going to go hire eight former criminals

452
00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:12,679
Speaker 3: x cons that I used to know. These are the

453
00:25:12,680 --> 00:25:14,960
Speaker 3: best of the worst. And it's sort of like the

454
00:25:15,000 --> 00:25:17,200
Speaker 3: dirty doesn't he's like, except that it was the dirty eight.

455
00:25:17,240 --> 00:25:19,919
Speaker 3: This is the dirty Ocho and they said, come with me,

456
00:25:20,119 --> 00:25:23,600
Speaker 3: and we're all going to be this undercover agent security brigade,

457
00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:25,200
Speaker 3: or we're going to clean up Paris.

458
00:25:25,280 --> 00:25:28,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, and I think that definitely undermines the idea that

459
00:25:28,080 --> 00:25:31,280
Speaker 2: he had no loyalty whatsoever to people he'd met as

460
00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:35,840
Speaker 2: a criminal in Paris. He just didn't have loyalty the

461
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 2: actual real criminals. He distinguished the difference between people who

462
00:25:40,080 --> 00:25:41,679
Speaker 2: commit crimes and actual criminals.

463
00:25:41,800 --> 00:25:44,399
Speaker 3: And so he accused of disloyalty.

464
00:25:44,520 --> 00:25:47,040
Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean we said earlier that he had no

465
00:25:47,240 --> 00:25:50,320
Speaker 2: loyalty whatsoever to the Paris criminal community.

466
00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:53,480
Speaker 3: Oh, I don't think so. I think he turned in

467
00:25:53,520 --> 00:25:56,200
Speaker 3: people he thought should be turned in, right, was loyal

468
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:56,800
Speaker 3: to his friends.

469
00:25:56,880 --> 00:25:59,520
Speaker 2: So these are the people that he picked. And yes,

470
00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:05,359
Speaker 2: it's very, very unorthodox. And I think if Paris hadn't

471
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:07,480
Speaker 2: been overrun with crime, he never would have been able

472
00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:11,880
Speaker 2: to put together a Paris wide undercover police force made

473
00:26:11,920 --> 00:26:14,679
Speaker 2: up of ex convicts. It even sounds nuts today in

474
00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,439
Speaker 2: twenty twenty three, I can't imagine what it sounded like

475
00:26:17,480 --> 00:26:22,840
Speaker 2: back in eighteen twelve. But his whole premise was, if

476
00:26:22,880 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 2: you send somebody who's a cop, give me a great

477
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 2: cop who could do undercover work. He'll get sniffed out

478
00:26:29,880 --> 00:26:33,479
Speaker 2: immediately and they will murder him. He will die. You

479
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:38,000
Speaker 2: can't have people who don't come from this do this

480
00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:42,359
Speaker 2: kind of work like That's it was very dangerous undercover work.

481
00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,000
Speaker 2: And so that's the main reason why he chose these

482
00:26:45,040 --> 00:26:47,520
Speaker 2: ex counts. But I also get the impression too, is

483
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:50,359
Speaker 2: that part of it was to just kind of demonstrate

484
00:26:50,440 --> 00:26:54,119
Speaker 2: his point that just because somebody had done time and

485
00:26:54,160 --> 00:26:56,600
Speaker 2: been convicted of a crime doesn't mean they could never

486
00:26:56,680 --> 00:26:57,520
Speaker 2: be trustworthy.

487
00:26:57,560 --> 00:27:01,439
Speaker 3: Again, I think he misspoke. I think snipped off the case, right.

488
00:27:01,560 --> 00:27:05,399
Speaker 2: That's right, I mean, and how could I missed that one? Uh?

489
00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 3: Do we break now or do we go for a

490
00:27:07,440 --> 00:27:08,119
Speaker 3: little bit longer?

491
00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 2: I think we should talk a little bit more about

492
00:27:10,520 --> 00:27:12,960
Speaker 2: the Security Brigade.

493
00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,159
Speaker 3: Okay, so started in eighteen twelve, Like you said, it

494
00:27:17,200 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 3: turned out to be a really big success. Napoleon just

495
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 3: a year later signed a decree that said the Security

496
00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:28,160
Speaker 3: Brigade is a state police force now and you can

497
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:30,600
Speaker 3: have his up to twenty eight men is what they

498
00:27:30,640 --> 00:27:35,399
Speaker 3: grew to. And I think through four or five years

499
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:38,560
Speaker 3: into it, they uh. And of course some of this

500
00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 3: stuff is we should say v duck would write a

501
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,280
Speaker 3: lot about his h and his memoirs and stuff. He

502
00:27:45,359 --> 00:27:47,920
Speaker 3: was not shy about tooting his own horn, let's say.

503
00:27:48,560 --> 00:27:50,440
Speaker 3: And he's one of those guys where like if you

504
00:27:50,480 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 3: read his memoir there, you know, some of it could

505
00:27:53,080 --> 00:27:55,119
Speaker 3: be boasting, some of it could be stretching the truth

506
00:27:55,119 --> 00:27:58,520
Speaker 3: a little, but we do know that they were super successful. Like,

507
00:27:58,640 --> 00:28:03,760
Speaker 3: no one is doubting that. But he touted fifteen murderers

508
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:06,960
Speaker 3: in just one year. Fifteen murders, three hundred and forty

509
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,879
Speaker 3: one thieves, thirty eight receivers of stolen goods, fourteen escaped convicts,

510
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:16,440
Speaker 3: forty three parole violations, forty six forgers, swindlers, con men,

511
00:28:16,840 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 3: two hundred and twenty nine vagabonds and suspicious types. So

512
00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:24,719
Speaker 3: they're they're kicking butt and taking names in Paris.

513
00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, and make a note of this for later and

514
00:28:28,000 --> 00:28:33,280
Speaker 2: put in your pipe in your hat that this this

515
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,800
Speaker 2: is a group of criminals who are showing up the

516
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 2: regular police. Yeah, and the regular police are not really

517
00:28:39,240 --> 00:28:41,640
Speaker 2: fans of being shown up in the public. Like the

518
00:28:41,680 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 2: public was reading all about this stuff, and.

519
00:28:44,280 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 3: Yeah, they're retting famous for it very much so.

520
00:28:46,920 --> 00:28:50,640
Speaker 2: And they were pulling in like the big whales while

521
00:28:50,720 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 2: the police were chasing down you know, pickpockets and stuff

522
00:28:55,040 --> 00:28:55,240
Speaker 2: like that.

523
00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:56,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, Oliver twists.

524
00:28:56,600 --> 00:29:01,760
Speaker 2: So there was a definite rivalry. Yeah he was a pickpocket, right, No,

525
00:29:02,000 --> 00:29:04,640
Speaker 2: I don't think so. Are you thinking of Annie? Annie

526
00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:05,200
Speaker 2: was a pick No.

527
00:29:07,200 --> 00:29:09,880
Speaker 3: I've already misspoken on Oliver Twist and Annie before, so

528
00:29:09,920 --> 00:29:11,960
Speaker 3: I'm not gonna do it again. Forget everything I said,

529
00:29:11,960 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 3: everybody right in.

530
00:29:13,320 --> 00:29:16,200
Speaker 2: So yeah, yeah, for sure we.

531
00:29:15,960 --> 00:29:18,280
Speaker 3: Know how to make the division symbol and a keyboard.

532
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:22,720
Speaker 2: Exactly, No, you do so he yuh? What was I saying, chuck?

533
00:29:23,960 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: Uh?

534
00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:26,480
Speaker 3: You were saying that he was landing the whales.

535
00:29:26,880 --> 00:29:29,920
Speaker 2: Yes, So there was a lot of rivalry and disdain

536
00:29:30,160 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 2: for the security brigade from the regular police. Just remember

537
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:36,560
Speaker 2: that they didn't like him.

538
00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 3: They did not, all right, So a few things, you know,

539
00:29:42,160 --> 00:29:45,560
Speaker 3: they found some great anecdotes from the security brigade. We

540
00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:48,400
Speaker 3: already know that he knew a lot about the crime

541
00:29:48,480 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 3: world and these criminals, and he was apparently there was

542
00:29:53,360 --> 00:29:55,760
Speaker 3: this one story where like he would know their methods,

543
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:57,840
Speaker 3: like specific people in their methods. And there was one

544
00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,600
Speaker 3: story about this robbery that they found where a thief

545
00:30:01,640 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 3: had cut around a lock and he was like, I

546
00:30:03,880 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 3: know who did that, Like, I know that work. That

547
00:30:06,160 --> 00:30:09,240
Speaker 3: is Foucard. And in the movie version, they said that

548
00:30:09,880 --> 00:30:13,640
Speaker 3: can't be a facade falsades in prison and someone steps

549
00:30:13,680 --> 00:30:16,880
Speaker 3: up and said facade escape from prison one week ago,

550
00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 3: and Beatog says, then it is him. That's awesome I scene.

551
00:30:21,840 --> 00:30:25,400
Speaker 2: I feel like the guy who stepped up to inform

552
00:30:25,440 --> 00:30:28,920
Speaker 2: everybody that he escaped from prison was agad or Spartacus

553
00:30:29,040 --> 00:30:29,960
Speaker 2: from the Bird Cage.

554
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:32,160
Speaker 3: I never saw that movie.

555
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 2: Really, I'm excited for you.

556
00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:37,680
Speaker 3: Chuck, you big hole.

557
00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:40,120
Speaker 2: You need to fill that hole, and you'll do it

558
00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,480
Speaker 2: over and over again. You'll keep filling that hole over

559
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:45,000
Speaker 2: and over again because it's such a great movie and

560
00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:48,520
Speaker 2: you can just watch it so many times. Uh.

561
00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:51,520
Speaker 3: And I also don't email about end scene. We've already

562
00:30:51,520 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 3: been over that before. It was just a joke.

563
00:30:52,800 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 2: I meant and scene and scene.

564
00:30:56,080 --> 00:30:58,800
Speaker 3: Uh what else? It was an envelope, a scrap of

565
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,880
Speaker 3: envelope with a half of address, and supposedly Vidoc was

566
00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:07,160
Speaker 3: able to make out the full address because he knew

567
00:31:07,160 --> 00:31:09,280
Speaker 3: about all the criminal hangouts, like this is where it

568
00:31:09,360 --> 00:31:09,640
Speaker 3: must be.

569
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:10,080
Speaker 2: M h.

570
00:31:10,400 --> 00:31:11,440
Speaker 3: That was that kind of hang.

571
00:31:11,440 --> 00:31:13,960
Speaker 2: I mean, that's just like who else is going to

572
00:31:14,000 --> 00:31:17,840
Speaker 2: be able to do that, nobuddy Vidoc. He also he

573
00:31:18,000 --> 00:31:21,080
Speaker 2: was not shy about, you know, going out guns blazing.

574
00:31:21,200 --> 00:31:22,960
Speaker 2: They got a tip that a stage coach was going

575
00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,040
Speaker 2: to get knocked over in the forest outside of Paris,

576
00:31:26,360 --> 00:31:29,760
Speaker 2: so they got on the stage coach undercover, and when

577
00:31:29,800 --> 00:31:32,600
Speaker 2: the bandits inevitably showed up and stopped the stage coach,

578
00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:35,760
Speaker 2: they got out and started just shooting, and it got

579
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:37,640
Speaker 2: root and tooting really fast.

580
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:41,000
Speaker 3: Now should we take a break.

581
00:31:41,120 --> 00:31:44,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think we've established that the security brigade was

582
00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:45,040
Speaker 2: pretty successful.

583
00:31:45,560 --> 00:31:48,480
Speaker 3: They were very successful. They're doing great work, and we'll

584
00:31:48,480 --> 00:31:52,760
Speaker 3: be right back to talk about his pioneering work in criminology.

585
00:31:52,840 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 2: Right for this, Chuck, I feel like in the movie version,

586
00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:28,280
Speaker 2: that would have been a montage that we just discussed.

587
00:32:29,520 --> 00:32:33,240
Speaker 3: I think dep Pardue it definitely was a montage. I

588
00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,040
Speaker 3: think depard who played him in a movie called v Doc.

589
00:32:36,160 --> 00:32:38,920
Speaker 3: But it wasn't like his life story. It was like

590
00:32:39,160 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 3: a lot of mistakes I think movies make. They're just like, hey,

591
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,840
Speaker 3: let's just talk about this one central crime and plot,

592
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:49,360
Speaker 3: and Vdoc is the guy on the case.

593
00:32:50,040 --> 00:32:52,920
Speaker 2: Okay, that makes sense. It sounds like they were trying

594
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:54,720
Speaker 2: to grow a franchise unsuccessfully.

595
00:32:55,360 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 3: Yeah, I guess he did that with the Charlotte Holmes movies.

596
00:32:57,440 --> 00:32:59,320
Speaker 3: I think I'd just like to see a movie about him,

597
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:00,440
Speaker 3: like his life.

598
00:33:00,520 --> 00:33:03,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, like, yeah, I mean, it rights itself.

599
00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:04,160
Speaker 3: It does.

600
00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 2: Even if you strip away like the legend stuff, it

601
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:11,280
Speaker 2: rights itself. He's just that fascinating. So yeah, we called

602
00:33:11,320 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 2: him the father of modern criminology, and not just us guys.

603
00:33:15,680 --> 00:33:19,200
Speaker 2: Everybody calls him that. And the reason why is because

604
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,960
Speaker 2: he was pioneering all sorts of techniques of criminology. They're

605
00:33:24,000 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 2: still used today.

606
00:33:25,280 --> 00:33:26,520
Speaker 3: It's amazing it is.

607
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:28,720
Speaker 2: On the one hand, you can be like this is

608
00:33:28,760 --> 00:33:31,800
Speaker 2: all low hanging fruit, like he's the first guy doing it,

609
00:33:31,840 --> 00:33:35,400
Speaker 2: but when you put it all together, it's it's like

610
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,600
Speaker 2: he was a sharp dude. And it also shows how

611
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 2: zeroed in and focused he was on fighting crime that

612
00:33:42,440 --> 00:33:43,240
Speaker 2: this is what he thought.

613
00:33:43,280 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 3: I think it was. I don't think it was low

614
00:33:44,840 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 3: hanging fruit. If like, no one else is doing this stuff, right,

615
00:33:48,280 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 3: I think that's a retrospective look like, I don't know.

616
00:33:52,560 --> 00:33:54,120
Speaker 3: I think if it was low hanging people would have

617
00:33:54,120 --> 00:33:54,480
Speaker 3: been doing it.

618
00:33:54,520 --> 00:33:58,240
Speaker 2: Okay, you don't. Let's take ballistics for example, He's credited

619
00:33:58,280 --> 00:34:02,120
Speaker 2: with doing the first ballistics comparison in the history of

620
00:34:03,320 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 2: law enforcement.

621
00:34:04,720 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: Yeah. So, eighteen twenty two, the body of Comtessa Isabelle

622
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 3: Darci was found shot to death. They arrest the husband.

623
00:34:15,280 --> 00:34:17,680
Speaker 3: Even back then, it's likely that the husband did it,

624
00:34:18,200 --> 00:34:20,400
Speaker 3: and they took his dueling pistol and it's like, this is,

625
00:34:20,520 --> 00:34:22,520
Speaker 3: you know, the murder weapon. And he was like, it

626
00:34:22,560 --> 00:34:25,520
Speaker 3: wasn't me. She had an Italian lover, and I guarantee

627
00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,479
Speaker 3: it was that guy. And Vidoc very simply was like, hey,

628
00:34:29,120 --> 00:34:31,920
Speaker 3: let's remove that bullet from the skull. They got the

629
00:34:31,920 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 3: bullet out and they were like, you can't put a

630
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:37,280
Speaker 3: bullet like that in a dueling pistol, and they tracked

631
00:34:37,280 --> 00:34:40,040
Speaker 3: down the Italian lover. He confessed. And I see why

632
00:34:40,080 --> 00:34:41,759
Speaker 3: he called low hanging fruit, because it seems like it

633
00:34:41,800 --> 00:34:43,879
Speaker 3: makes so much sense just to say, well, hey, let's

634
00:34:43,880 --> 00:34:46,080
Speaker 3: look at the bullet. But I don't know if no

635
00:34:46,120 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 3: one else is suggesting it.

636
00:34:47,600 --> 00:34:51,160
Speaker 2: No, no, for sure. And even if that had been

637
00:34:51,200 --> 00:34:55,680
Speaker 2: his only, you know, contribution, you know, you would be like, yeah,

638
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,520
Speaker 2: that's need or whatever. But I wouldn't call it remarkable.

639
00:34:58,560 --> 00:35:00,240
Speaker 2: It's the fact that he came up with so many,

640
00:35:00,000 --> 00:35:01,000
Speaker 2: many different things.

641
00:35:01,200 --> 00:35:01,640
Speaker 3: Yeah.

642
00:35:01,440 --> 00:35:03,040
Speaker 2: Yeah, And the only reason I call it low hanging

643
00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:05,239
Speaker 2: fruit is not to put him down, but because I

644
00:35:05,280 --> 00:35:10,840
Speaker 2: think that over time somebody would have had the same thought. Right, No,

645
00:35:10,920 --> 00:35:15,600
Speaker 2: one just had. But he was basically standing under the tree, spinning,

646
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:19,239
Speaker 2: grabbing all the fruit. That was one of the things

647
00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,760
Speaker 2: that makes him remarkable. He was a fruit cramper.

648
00:35:22,560 --> 00:35:24,200
Speaker 3: He was grabbing that falling fruit.

649
00:35:24,800 --> 00:35:25,680
Speaker 2: I got another one.

650
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:26,799
Speaker 3: Let's hear it.

651
00:35:26,880 --> 00:35:31,080
Speaker 2: Footprint analysis. Yeah, like, we would have no idea that

652
00:35:31,120 --> 00:35:34,400
Speaker 2: bigfoot exists if vid doc hadn't come along and figured

653
00:35:34,400 --> 00:35:37,680
Speaker 2: out that you can actually make a reverse a negative

654
00:35:37,840 --> 00:35:40,719
Speaker 2: of a footprint if you fill the footprint in with

655
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,160
Speaker 2: plaster plaster of Paris appropriately.

656
00:35:44,520 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, He's like, can I get plaster? And they're like,

657
00:35:46,200 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 3: this is Paris? What are kidding?

658
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:51,800
Speaker 2: It's everywhere. So he actually this was a lead heist.

659
00:35:51,960 --> 00:35:55,160
Speaker 2: Someone had stolen a bunch of lead and it turned

660
00:35:55,160 --> 00:35:57,680
Speaker 2: out to be a former police agent. But he he

661
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,359
Speaker 2: made a cast of the footprint compared to to the

662
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,600
Speaker 2: boot treads of other suspects and found one that matched.

663
00:36:03,640 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 2: And the guy was like, yes, that was me, the

664
00:36:05,520 --> 00:36:07,720
Speaker 2: DUC you found me out.

665
00:36:08,080 --> 00:36:11,160
Speaker 3: Amazing. He also early on and this one, to me

666
00:36:11,239 --> 00:36:14,520
Speaker 3: is really remarkable. He was like, all right, that footprint

667
00:36:14,520 --> 00:36:17,040
Speaker 3: thing worked, and he was like, fingerprints, that's got to

668
00:36:17,040 --> 00:36:19,560
Speaker 3: be a thing, Like look at these, look at this,

669
00:36:19,760 --> 00:36:22,000
Speaker 3: Look at your thumb everybody, and everyone looked at their

670
00:36:22,000 --> 00:36:27,400
Speaker 3: thumb and they all had you know, pastry cream on it,

671
00:36:28,000 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 3: and so they licked it off and then looked at

672
00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,839
Speaker 3: their thumb and they're like, oh wow. And he said,

673
00:36:32,840 --> 00:36:36,200
Speaker 3: we could probably use this too, but they just couldn't

674
00:36:36,200 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 3: find like a way to do it. They didn't have

675
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,600
Speaker 3: the technology yet. They couldn't find an ink that would

676
00:36:40,600 --> 00:36:44,760
Speaker 3: work and record the fingerprints properly. So that didn't happen.

677
00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:45,680
Speaker 3: But he had the idea.

678
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,120
Speaker 2: Yeah. He also so that ink in the forge proof

679
00:36:49,160 --> 00:36:51,120
Speaker 2: paper he came up with while he ran a paper

680
00:36:51,120 --> 00:36:54,840
Speaker 2: mill during one of his down periods between fighting crime.

681
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think that was later in life. Wasn't that

682
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:00,520
Speaker 3: like a retirement job or Am I wrong about that?

683
00:37:00,640 --> 00:37:04,319
Speaker 2: It was in between his reign as head of the

684
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:07,600
Speaker 2: Security Brigade and his next neck act.

685
00:37:08,280 --> 00:37:10,680
Speaker 3: We'll just leave it at that, Okay, I got you.

686
00:37:11,280 --> 00:37:11,879
Speaker 2: So what else?

687
00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:14,960
Speaker 3: The other thing he did was he was really good.

688
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 3: He had a great memory apparently, and was really good

689
00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:20,680
Speaker 3: at remembering like the people and the faces of the

690
00:37:20,680 --> 00:37:25,279
Speaker 3: people of the underworld and their names. And he was like,

691
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:27,560
Speaker 3: first thing he did was said, all of you cops

692
00:37:27,560 --> 00:37:29,720
Speaker 3: should get good at that too, because that really helps

693
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:33,120
Speaker 3: if you like go to the prisons and observe the

694
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 3: guys in the prison and the exercise yard and like

695
00:37:36,560 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 3: remember their faces, remember their names. And maybe we should

696
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:43,640
Speaker 3: start writing this stuff down and keeping track of criminals. Actually,

697
00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:45,759
Speaker 3: and they went to oil do we have never done

698
00:37:45,800 --> 00:37:48,440
Speaker 3: such a thing, and he said, we'll start doing it.

699
00:37:48,719 --> 00:37:52,160
Speaker 3: And that was the beginning of I mean, it was

700
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,000
Speaker 3: like a card catalog at the time, but that was

701
00:37:54,040 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 3: the beginning of what do you call it?

702
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:03,799
Speaker 2: The criminal database? Yeah, mental database, y profiling, sure, but

703
00:38:03,840 --> 00:38:06,200
Speaker 2: I mean it was everything like if you were a forger,

704
00:38:06,440 --> 00:38:09,359
Speaker 2: they would have a sample of your handwriting. Like it

705
00:38:09,400 --> 00:38:12,359
Speaker 2: was really detailed. I saw that it had I think

706
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:18,080
Speaker 2: thirty thousand crooks information but it covered millions of pages. Essentially. Yeah,

707
00:38:18,120 --> 00:38:20,759
Speaker 2: they were really like into it. And then another thing

708
00:38:20,880 --> 00:38:25,799
Speaker 2: he helped establish was essentially the criminal profiling from a

709
00:38:25,800 --> 00:38:32,560
Speaker 2: psychological standpoint. He wrote a treatise called lesva LUs Psychology

710
00:38:32,920 --> 00:38:33,640
Speaker 2: de lu.

711
00:38:33,640 --> 00:38:37,400
Speaker 3: Mouse a psychology Physiology.

712
00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 2: Okay, let me try that again. Lesv LUs Cologne physiology

713
00:38:43,440 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 2: delu mour a de lu langau longa longog. I think

714
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:52,400
Speaker 2: that's how you say language, but anyway, it means thieves.

715
00:38:52,719 --> 00:38:54,799
Speaker 2: And I added the colon. And he actually used a

716
00:38:54,920 --> 00:38:58,600
Speaker 2: comma an anatomy of their mores and their language. And

717
00:38:58,680 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 2: it was a study of like the mind of a thief,

718
00:39:01,520 --> 00:39:04,560
Speaker 2: and it was evidence based, like it was a scientific

719
00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,080
Speaker 2: paper that he wrote about the criminal mind. And I

720
00:39:09,080 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 2: think that actually undermines the idea that his memoirs were

721
00:39:12,480 --> 00:39:16,120
Speaker 2: like him just being over the top. I saw that

722
00:39:16,239 --> 00:39:19,520
Speaker 2: he had written a manuscript for his memoirs, handed it in.

723
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: Then after he handed it in, the publisher hired a

724
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,480
Speaker 2: ghostwriter to punch it, and that he wasn't super happy

725
00:39:25,480 --> 00:39:28,920
Speaker 2: about that when he found the final product when he

726
00:39:28,960 --> 00:39:29,520
Speaker 2: read the book.

727
00:39:30,000 --> 00:39:31,879
Speaker 3: So oh, he's in fact a humble man.

728
00:39:32,000 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 2: I don't know about that, but I don't he was

729
00:39:35,400 --> 00:39:37,840
Speaker 2: as boastful as he has a reputation for based on

730
00:39:37,920 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 2: his memoirs.

731
00:39:38,880 --> 00:39:42,440
Speaker 3: Okay, Like we mentioned, he was a master of disguise,

732
00:39:43,120 --> 00:39:47,880
Speaker 3: as were his men in his police force. And they

733
00:39:47,920 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 3: could do it all. They were like Monty Python. They

734
00:39:49,600 --> 00:39:51,680
Speaker 3: would dress up as, like we said, nuns and women

735
00:39:51,800 --> 00:39:56,520
Speaker 3: and old people, young people, thieves obviously, and it was

736
00:39:56,560 --> 00:39:59,720
Speaker 3: a time and it sounds a little nonsensical that thieves

737
00:39:59,719 --> 00:40:02,279
Speaker 3: would dress and speak in a certain way and wear

738
00:40:02,320 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 3: their hair in a certain way, but there's been times

739
00:40:05,040 --> 00:40:08,080
Speaker 3: in history when that was the case, like a if

740
00:40:08,080 --> 00:40:11,480
Speaker 3: you look at it, some of the old gangster British

741
00:40:11,480 --> 00:40:14,000
Speaker 3: gangsters of a time sort of did the same thing.

742
00:40:14,120 --> 00:40:16,840
Speaker 3: You carry yourself and I think today even and you

743
00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:20,000
Speaker 3: would call it profiling, but you know, there's there's certain

744
00:40:20,560 --> 00:40:23,400
Speaker 3: ways of dress to sort of be in the world

745
00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 3: where crimes are happening. There always has been.

746
00:40:25,520 --> 00:40:29,360
Speaker 2: You wear track suits, yeah.

747
00:40:28,600 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 3: Oh no, I'm wearing a tracksuit right now.

748
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:33,319
Speaker 2: Criminal, I would turn you the fire of a dock.

749
00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:36,520
Speaker 3: But they had their own style, so they would obviously

750
00:40:37,080 --> 00:40:40,359
Speaker 3: were very good at mimicking that style. And in the

751
00:40:40,440 --> 00:40:42,960
Speaker 3: memoirs and this you know, could have been a ghostwriter

752
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,640
Speaker 3: because it is very flourishy. Apparently he had a habit,

753
00:40:47,480 --> 00:40:52,560
Speaker 3: very cinematically of pulling off his mask or's costume at

754
00:40:52,600 --> 00:40:54,919
Speaker 3: the at the last moment and saying it is I

755
00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:58,440
Speaker 3: viduc as the shackles are being put on the criminal, yes,

756
00:40:59,120 --> 00:41:01,239
Speaker 3: or like Tom Cruise, any mission I possible movie.

757
00:41:01,280 --> 00:41:04,279
Speaker 2: It's right, so Chuck, I said. Everybody should remember that

758
00:41:04,360 --> 00:41:08,040
Speaker 2: he had lots of enemies in the real police, regular police,

759
00:41:08,560 --> 00:41:13,040
Speaker 2: and they they routinely accused him of illegal activity like

760
00:41:13,120 --> 00:41:17,960
Speaker 2: planning evidence, accepting bribes, and trapping people, kidnapping young women

761
00:41:18,040 --> 00:41:21,200
Speaker 2: to take them off to convents to become nuns at

762
00:41:21,200 --> 00:41:24,200
Speaker 2: their parents' behest. Yeah, I saw that all of the stuff.

763
00:41:24,239 --> 00:41:27,160
Speaker 2: These are accusations. None of these things were ever proven.

764
00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:30,000
Speaker 2: He was never even taken a court for most of them.

765
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:34,640
Speaker 2: There were two cases that solid his reputation that gave

766
00:41:34,680 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 2: the police the chance to really drag him through the mud.

767
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 2: One was that one of his agents was accused of

768
00:41:42,360 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 2: helping a group of robbers that he actually busted. That

769
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:48,680
Speaker 2: he had taken some money from them for bringing a

770
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,200
Speaker 2: key so they could break into a place easier. He

771
00:41:51,280 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 2: got two years. It's not clear that that actually did happen,

772
00:41:54,440 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 2: but the guy got two years anyway. And Vidoc had

773
00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:00,640
Speaker 2: so laid his reputation on the line that not only

774
00:42:00,680 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: he could be trusted, but his agents could be trusted too,

775
00:42:04,000 --> 00:42:07,320
Speaker 2: that he resigned. He was like, that's fine, I'll resign.

776
00:42:07,360 --> 00:42:09,600
Speaker 2: I'm clearly not meant for this any longer, Like my

777
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:11,799
Speaker 2: reputation has been tarnished, and I'm just going to go

778
00:42:11,840 --> 00:42:15,240
Speaker 2: off and start a paper mill. He was brought back

779
00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,040
Speaker 2: and he was the head for another year something like that,

780
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:21,359
Speaker 2: and then he said, you know what, forget this, I'm

781
00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,440
Speaker 2: going to go out and start my own detective agency,

782
00:42:24,680 --> 00:42:29,279
Speaker 2: the world's first detective agency, I think, almost twenty years

783
00:42:29,280 --> 00:42:31,040
Speaker 2: before the Pinkertons even started.

784
00:42:32,120 --> 00:42:34,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think part of the I think it was

785
00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:37,080
Speaker 3: twofold a is for the cops, like they definitely didn't

786
00:42:37,120 --> 00:42:40,319
Speaker 3: like that he was out shining them, and I think

787
00:42:40,360 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 3: they were always suspicious that he never left his criminal

788
00:42:43,960 --> 00:42:49,320
Speaker 3: pass behind because he lived beyond his means of his salary.

789
00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:52,120
Speaker 3: I saw, so I can't remember how much he made

790
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:54,839
Speaker 3: as a salary. I think it was like five thousand

791
00:42:56,800 --> 00:43:00,960
Speaker 3: francs at the time, and he lived as a man

792
00:43:01,000 --> 00:43:03,600
Speaker 3: who had much more money than that. So he had

793
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,640
Speaker 3: all kinds of side hustles. He was in real estate.

794
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 3: Think he helped run a tavern, and so he made

795
00:43:09,160 --> 00:43:11,440
Speaker 3: extra money doing other things. And I think they were

796
00:43:11,440 --> 00:43:16,799
Speaker 3: always suspicious that he was still dabbling in criminality. One

797
00:43:16,880 --> 00:43:20,120
Speaker 3: thing he did that was I thought fairly interesting, and

798
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,319
Speaker 3: I'm not sure how illegal it was. There was a

799
00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,480
Speaker 3: thing at the time where you could pay somebody to

800
00:43:27,520 --> 00:43:30,399
Speaker 3: take your place in the army. Basically, if you didn't

801
00:43:30,440 --> 00:43:32,279
Speaker 3: want to go to the army, you could offer up

802
00:43:32,320 --> 00:43:34,480
Speaker 3: a substitute. You could pay that substitute, and they were

803
00:43:34,480 --> 00:43:36,879
Speaker 3: glad to take the money to do that. And what

804
00:43:36,960 --> 00:43:40,480
Speaker 3: he would do was he would catch a criminal and say, hey,

805
00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:42,000
Speaker 3: you want to go to prison or you want to

806
00:43:42,040 --> 00:43:44,439
Speaker 3: go to the army. And if they said I'd rather

807
00:43:44,480 --> 00:43:46,960
Speaker 3: go the army, he would say, here's your substitute, Now

808
00:43:46,960 --> 00:43:50,320
Speaker 3: give me my money. So whether or not that's actually illegal,

809
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:56,560
Speaker 3: who knows. It's borderline. And I think stuff like that

810
00:43:56,600 --> 00:44:00,160
Speaker 3: sort of made the cops added to their ire I

811
00:44:00,160 --> 00:44:02,560
Speaker 3: think because he was making more money than they were.

812
00:44:02,640 --> 00:44:05,840
Speaker 2: So did that. That definitely happened. That was proven that

813
00:44:05,880 --> 00:44:08,160
Speaker 2: he did that. That wasn't just an accusation that like

814
00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:09,479
Speaker 2: turned into fact over time.

815
00:44:10,120 --> 00:44:12,400
Speaker 3: I'm not sure I read it in a book. Uh

816
00:44:13,920 --> 00:44:16,040
Speaker 3: you know, it wasn't like some internet articles show it

817
00:44:16,080 --> 00:44:17,319
Speaker 3: was from an actual book.

818
00:44:17,360 --> 00:44:19,759
Speaker 2: It was not on YouTube, No, it was.

819
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:20,520
Speaker 3: It wasn't a book.

820
00:44:20,640 --> 00:44:24,000
Speaker 2: Okay, So regardless of this, he has he's founded this

821
00:44:24,120 --> 00:44:27,840
Speaker 2: new this detective agency again the first detective agency in

822
00:44:27,880 --> 00:44:32,120
Speaker 2: the world. And he started out basically collaring white collar

823
00:44:32,160 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 2: criminals for large you know, corporate clients, people who swindled them,

824
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,040
Speaker 2: made off with money and bezzled that kind of stuff.

825
00:44:41,800 --> 00:44:44,920
Speaker 2: And there was one case in particular, uh, And this

826
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:49,040
Speaker 2: was after years years of this successful detective agency continuing

827
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:53,520
Speaker 2: to show up the security brigade that his successor's brother

828
00:44:54,000 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: ran a bank and when the bank got knocked over,

829
00:44:57,160 --> 00:45:01,120
Speaker 2: the brother came to the doc the head of the

830
00:45:01,160 --> 00:45:05,640
Speaker 2: security brigade who he was related to. So there was

831
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:08,279
Speaker 2: a case where a guy he had caught a guy

832
00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,360
Speaker 2: who had absconded with money. He brought him into the

833
00:45:11,400 --> 00:45:14,399
Speaker 2: office for questioning and got the guy, convinced the guy

834
00:45:14,440 --> 00:45:17,400
Speaker 2: to give up like twenty two hundred francs to just

835
00:45:17,480 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 2: begin repayment, put it in his account as he normally did,

836
00:45:22,120 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: to then hand over to the people who'd hired him

837
00:45:25,239 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 2: less than forty five percent they promised him for finding

838
00:45:27,840 --> 00:45:32,359
Speaker 2: right that happened, and a week later the cops show

839
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:36,720
Speaker 2: up and arrests him for false imprisonment, impersonating a police officer,

840
00:45:37,000 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 2: and taking bribes essentially. And this is where his reputation

841
00:45:42,120 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 2: really got tarnished.

842
00:45:44,840 --> 00:45:47,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was a by most accounts, it was a setup,

843
00:45:47,800 --> 00:45:49,080
Speaker 3: like a complete set right.

844
00:45:49,280 --> 00:45:53,319
Speaker 2: Like he they looked all over to find people who

845
00:45:53,360 --> 00:45:56,640
Speaker 2: would say in court that he was a crook. They

846
00:45:56,680 --> 00:46:01,600
Speaker 2: couldn't find anybody, even other criminals. They couldn't find anybody

847
00:46:01,640 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 2: except for this one guy, COMPI, who was the one

848
00:46:05,640 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 2: person who accused him. So he regardless is convicted given

849
00:46:12,239 --> 00:46:16,840
Speaker 2: I think like five or six years, and within apparently

850
00:46:16,920 --> 00:46:18,840
Speaker 2: weeks find he gets his case in front of the

851
00:46:18,880 --> 00:46:22,400
Speaker 2: appellate court, who took like less than a day to

852
00:46:22,520 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 2: throw the case out because he'd clearly been railroaded and

853
00:46:25,400 --> 00:46:28,520
Speaker 2: exonerated him. But his reputation had been so solid even

854
00:46:28,560 --> 00:46:32,479
Speaker 2: at the time, his star really fell and he looked

855
00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 2: around for somebody to sell the detective detective agency to.

856
00:46:36,560 --> 00:46:40,600
Speaker 2: Apparently there were plenty of buyers, but they were like fraudsters,

857
00:46:40,640 --> 00:46:43,279
Speaker 2: just looking to take advantage of people. So he just

858
00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:47,840
Speaker 2: closed the thing down instead. Amazing, And there's here's another example.

859
00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:50,919
Speaker 2: So you hear that he got ten months. He spent

860
00:46:50,960 --> 00:46:54,880
Speaker 2: ten months in jail for that crime, right impersonating a

861
00:46:54,880 --> 00:46:58,120
Speaker 2: police officer and all that he didn't he spent ten

862
00:46:58,160 --> 00:47:00,520
Speaker 2: months in between the time he was incused, in the

863
00:47:00,560 --> 00:47:04,160
Speaker 2: time he was finally brought to trial, and then after

864
00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:09,640
Speaker 2: that he was acquitted within weeks of being convicted. Does

865
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,360
Speaker 2: that make sense, Like that kind of detail like matters

866
00:47:12,680 --> 00:47:14,919
Speaker 2: hundreds of years on it does.

867
00:47:15,520 --> 00:47:18,359
Speaker 3: So the cherry on top of this story is that

868
00:47:18,800 --> 00:47:24,520
Speaker 3: Vidoc left behind a really interesting literary legacy, and not

869
00:47:24,560 --> 00:47:27,360
Speaker 3: only just the books he wrote. He wrote memoirs, like

870
00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:32,200
Speaker 3: we said, he wrote that that crime book, the science

871
00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:35,640
Speaker 3: book that was so great. But Victor Hugo, he had

872
00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 3: friends like this, Victor Hugo and Balzac one of my

873
00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,840
Speaker 3: favorite names. They use him as inspiration. If you read

874
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:46,920
Speaker 3: the book le Meserab or go see that Broadway show.

875
00:47:47,120 --> 00:47:49,799
Speaker 3: If you see that awesome movie and you cry every

876
00:47:49,800 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 3: time Anne Hathaway sings like I do.

877
00:47:52,400 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 2: It's amazing because she's good or bad at it?

878
00:47:55,280 --> 00:47:56,239
Speaker 3: Have you never seen it?

879
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:58,800
Speaker 2: No? I saw. Though it's stage play.

880
00:47:59,440 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 3: It's great for the music, Jesus great. They did something

881
00:48:02,400 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 3: different in that musical where they they didn't lip sync.

882
00:48:05,239 --> 00:48:08,960
Speaker 3: They actually recorded them singing in the moment on stage,

883
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 3: on the scene, and they had never done that before.

884
00:48:11,680 --> 00:48:15,920
Speaker 3: And so it's like palpable and real and boy it's good.

885
00:48:16,640 --> 00:48:20,080
Speaker 3: I loved it. So ley Miz though is the story

886
00:48:20,239 --> 00:48:24,560
Speaker 3: about a man who gets put in jail for stealing bread.

887
00:48:24,680 --> 00:48:29,319
Speaker 3: So that might sound familiar from Vdock's real life, but

888
00:48:30,200 --> 00:48:35,160
Speaker 3: apparently Hugo actually used both of the characters Jean Valjean

889
00:48:35,680 --> 00:48:41,400
Speaker 3: and who's the other guy? Javert as inspirations. You know,

890
00:48:41,440 --> 00:48:43,680
Speaker 3: he was the inspiration for both because he was both

891
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:49,880
Speaker 3: criminal and cought. Later on, not only that, but mentioned Baalzac.

892
00:48:50,840 --> 00:48:57,440
Speaker 3: He cited Vdoc specifically as inspiration for Valtrind his character. Then,

893
00:48:57,480 --> 00:48:59,120
Speaker 3: of course, once you see who the character is, it

894
00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:03,160
Speaker 3: makes a lot of sense. Escape convict and criminal mastermind

895
00:49:03,200 --> 00:49:07,680
Speaker 3: who repents and becomes a police officer, a minister police

896
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 3: in Italy. Yeah, not bad.

897
00:49:10,000 --> 00:49:15,520
Speaker 2: So what's widely believed to be the first modern detective

898
00:49:15,600 --> 00:49:18,239
Speaker 2: novel was The Murders in the Room Morgue by Edgar

899
00:49:18,239 --> 00:49:22,080
Speaker 2: Allan Poe, and there's an amateur French detective named Dupin

900
00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: and Poe said that he definitely based Dupinn on Vidoc.

901
00:49:29,719 --> 00:49:32,320
Speaker 2: One that's a little less clear, a little less direct,

902
00:49:32,360 --> 00:49:37,680
Speaker 2: is Sherlock Holmes. There's some traits between Sherlock Holmes and Vidoc,

903
00:49:37,800 --> 00:49:40,360
Speaker 2: like Masters of Disguise and like dealing with the criminal

904
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:44,760
Speaker 2: underworld for information and all that stuff. But Sherlock Holmes

905
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:49,160
Speaker 2: was based on a French detective that came before Monsieur Lecoq,

906
00:49:49,880 --> 00:49:54,759
Speaker 2: and Emil Gaborio, who wrote the books that Lecoq was

907
00:49:54,800 --> 00:50:01,000
Speaker 2: the protagonist of definitely modeled Lecoq on Vidoc. Lecoq was

908
00:50:01,800 --> 00:50:06,280
Speaker 2: based on Vidoc, and Sake. Sherlock Holmes was based on Lacock.

909
00:50:07,320 --> 00:50:11,759
Speaker 3: So I think by transitive property. Oh nice, is that it?

910
00:50:11,800 --> 00:50:12,200
Speaker 2: I hope?

911
00:50:12,239 --> 00:50:14,560
Speaker 3: So man mass.

912
00:50:15,920 --> 00:50:16,399
Speaker 2: So that's it.

913
00:50:17,680 --> 00:50:18,239
Speaker 3: What a guy?

914
00:50:18,480 --> 00:50:24,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, he definitely deserves a at least a decent movie.

915
00:50:24,480 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 2: If not, that's a franchise, you know what I mean.

916
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, in can't you find someone besides George de Pardieu?

917
00:50:30,640 --> 00:50:33,279
Speaker 3: I mean surely, I feel like he was just the

918
00:50:33,400 --> 00:50:36,439
Speaker 3: guy for so long. He's old now, and I think

919
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 3: he didn't get me too.

920
00:50:37,920 --> 00:50:40,920
Speaker 2: I don't know. I know that France kind of was like,

921
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:43,040
Speaker 2: you stink because he moved so we wouldn't have to

922
00:50:43,040 --> 00:50:46,239
Speaker 2: pay high taxes. Maybe that's that's the last thing I

923
00:50:46,280 --> 00:50:49,560
Speaker 2: heard of. Oh there's one other thing. There's a group

924
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:52,440
Speaker 2: called the Vidoc Society in Philadelphia, that's made up of

925
00:50:52,480 --> 00:50:56,279
Speaker 2: like criminologists and people in law enforcement who take cold

926
00:50:56,320 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 2: cases on pro bono during their monthly lunches and try

927
00:50:59,160 --> 00:51:01,840
Speaker 2: to inject new life into the cases.

928
00:51:02,640 --> 00:51:05,400
Speaker 3: You know, they love that name for sure. The v

929
00:51:05,520 --> 00:51:09,160
Speaker 3: DOC Society cool and they all come in in disguise

930
00:51:09,280 --> 00:51:12,960
Speaker 3: and then rip off their masks. I at lunch, it's

931
00:51:13,080 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 3: right every day.

932
00:51:15,560 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 2: Well, that's VIDOC for you. If you want to know

933
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:21,360
Speaker 2: more about them. There's a lot of interesting contradictory stuff

934
00:51:21,400 --> 00:51:24,919
Speaker 2: out there to read. And since I said contradictory, that means,

935
00:51:24,920 --> 00:51:26,520
Speaker 2: of course it's time for listener mail.

936
00:51:27,920 --> 00:51:30,280
Speaker 3: I'm going to call this my Way or the Skyway.

937
00:51:32,360 --> 00:51:33,919
Speaker 3: That has nothing to do with it. It's just about

938
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:37,360
Speaker 3: the Skyway disaster. We heard from a doctor. This is

939
00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,240
Speaker 3: a really good email. Hey, guys, just recently started listening

940
00:51:40,239 --> 00:51:43,480
Speaker 3: to the show. Found the episode of high regency Skywalk

941
00:51:43,560 --> 00:51:47,359
Speaker 3: disaster very interesting. I'm a physician and was in residency

942
00:51:47,840 --> 00:51:50,640
Speaker 3: at a hospital in Kansas City, not far from the

943
00:51:50,680 --> 00:51:53,279
Speaker 3: Crown Center at that time, and I was on call

944
00:51:53,360 --> 00:51:55,919
Speaker 3: that Friday night and was watching TV with a number

945
00:51:55,960 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 3: of other residents when I heard the news and we

946
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,879
Speaker 3: knew that we were in for a busy night. I'm

947
00:52:01,880 --> 00:52:03,960
Speaker 3: writing in basically to mention two things I thought you

948
00:52:04,040 --> 00:52:07,680
Speaker 3: might find interesting. Ironically, the Kansas City metro area had

949
00:52:07,719 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 3: planned for a mass disaster drill the next day. Of course,

950
00:52:12,120 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 3: the drill was canceled and instead the response to the

951
00:52:15,000 --> 00:52:19,080
Speaker 3: actual disaster was analyzed, resulting in significant changes for future

952
00:52:19,120 --> 00:52:23,600
Speaker 3: plans for a response to a mass disaster. Now that's incredible.

953
00:52:24,520 --> 00:52:27,120
Speaker 3: And this one. Both of my sons graduated from college

954
00:52:27,120 --> 00:52:30,680
Speaker 3: with engineering degrees a few years ago. They were taught

955
00:52:30,680 --> 00:52:33,600
Speaker 3: about the high disaster in their classes and there's still

956
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:36,160
Speaker 3: lessons to be learned from what happened even decades later.

957
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 3: And that is from doctor Paul M. Jost of Kansas City.

958
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:45,880
Speaker 2: Thanks a lot, doctor Jost. That was an amazing email. Like, geez,

959
00:52:46,080 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 2: it's some background right there.

960
00:52:48,520 --> 00:52:50,759
Speaker 3: Yeah, and hey, way to get on listener mail as

961
00:52:50,800 --> 00:52:52,439
Speaker 3: a new listener. That's well done.

962
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:55,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, just pat yourself on the back. Tick off your

963
00:52:55,360 --> 00:52:57,600
Speaker 2: lab coat so you have a little extra stretching room

964
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,080
Speaker 2: and pat yourself on the back.

965
00:52:59,600 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 3: That's right. And also, doc, I got this shoulder thing

966
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:02,640
Speaker 3: going on.

967
00:53:03,960 --> 00:53:04,280
Speaker 1: Sorry.

968
00:53:04,880 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 2: Well, if you want to be like doctor Jos and

969
00:53:06,719 --> 00:53:10,720
Speaker 2: send us some really r kane info about an episode

970
00:53:10,760 --> 00:53:12,840
Speaker 2: that we did. We love to hear that stuff. You

971
00:53:12,880 --> 00:53:15,320
Speaker 2: can send it to us, feed email, It's stuff podcast

972
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 2: at iHeartRadio dot com.

973
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 3: Stuff you Should Know is a production of iHeartRadio. For

974
00:53:23,320 --> 00:53:27,520
Speaker 3: more podcasts my heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

975
00:53:27,640 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 3: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.