WEBVTT - #261 Jason Flom with Clay Chabot 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:04.440 The Innocence Network is a loose affiliation of independent innocence organizations, 0:00:04.440 --> 0:00:07.440 and each year, members of these organizations, as well as 0:00:07.480 --> 0:00:10.680 the hundreds of exanneries who they've helped free, gather for 0:00:10.760 --> 0:00:15.280 the Innocence Network Conference, and it's a beautiful thing. For 0:00:15.400 --> 0:00:18.279 one weekend. The ex hoonarees can all count on the 0:00:18.320 --> 0:00:21.640 fact that there are other people around who share their experience, 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.320 and our team was honored to join them for their 0:00:25.320 --> 0:00:28.800 twenty twenty two gathering in Arizona. We recorded a number 0:00:28.800 --> 0:00:31.400 of interviews and the damage that these stories due to 0:00:31.440 --> 0:00:34.920 your faith in humanity is only then restored by the 0:00:34.960 --> 0:00:41.480 amazing people telling those stories. Clay Shabeau and his friend 0:00:41.520 --> 0:00:44.440 Doug Graham were bikers who dealt some drugs in Garland, Texas. 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:48.720 Clay's brother in law, Jerry Papps, was a customer with 0:00:48.800 --> 0:00:51.520 a newborn son. Clay was beginning to leave that life 0:00:51.560 --> 0:00:55.720 behind when on April nineteenth, nineteen eighty six, Doug Graham's 0:00:55.760 --> 0:00:58.319 common law wife was found in her home having been 0:00:58.360 --> 0:01:02.480 sexually assaulted and shot down when Paps returned a gun 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:05.000 that he'd taken from his sister. He told her husband 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.360 Clay about how he was at Doug's that morning to 0:01:07.360 --> 0:01:11.919 buy drugs, heard gunshots and fled. Witnesses had seen PAP's 0:01:12.000 --> 0:01:15.760 card there, and he was later found wearing bloody clothing. However, 0:01:15.959 --> 0:01:19.120 even with all of this evidence pointing towards PAPS, he 0:01:19.200 --> 0:01:22.440 was able to redirect detectives towards his rough looking brother 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:26.800 in law, Clay Chabau. A rape kit was performed, but 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:29.399 in nineteen eighty six, the DNA testing that would one 0:01:29.480 --> 0:01:33.960 day exclude Clay was not available. Curiously, no blood type 0:01:34.000 --> 0:01:37.600 evidence was presented. Instead of simply using the evidence that 0:01:37.640 --> 0:01:41.520 implicated PAPS, detectives decided that they needed a statement from Clay. 0:01:42.200 --> 0:01:45.319 When Clay refused to testify to something that he didn't know, 0:01:45.760 --> 0:01:49.760 detectives chose to ignore all evidence and the inconsistent statements 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:54.440 from PAPS to focus their efforts squarely on Clay, using 0:01:54.560 --> 0:01:58.080 PAPS as their star witness and the implicit bias against bikers. 0:01:58.240 --> 0:02:01.560 Clay Chabeau was sentenced to life and prison. It took 0:02:01.600 --> 0:02:05.800 the evolution of DNA testing, the post conviction statutes allowing it, 0:02:06.040 --> 0:02:09.240 and the dedicated team at the Innosis project to finally 0:02:09.320 --> 0:02:11.919 prove what seemed to be evident to the prosecutor at 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:31.120 Clay's original trial. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to 0:02:31.160 --> 0:02:36.280 Wrongful Conviction today's episode. How can I say this? If 0:02:36.320 --> 0:02:40.399 I was going to teach a third grade class how 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:43.560 to solve a crime, I might present them with the 0:02:43.800 --> 0:02:48.960 evidence that was available and abundant in this case, and 0:02:48.960 --> 0:02:51.480 they would solve this case. I would say within an 0:02:51.480 --> 0:02:55.359 hour at the most. I mean, this one came with instructions, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:02:59.520 and yet the authorities managed to not only lock up 0:02:59.520 --> 0:03:03.920 an NCMA, but let the obvious suspect remain free. And 0:03:03.960 --> 0:03:07.440 of course I'm talking about the case of Clay Shabou. Clay, 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:10.520 I'm sorry for everything you went through. So thank you 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.359 for being here today. Thank you for having me and 0:03:13.639 --> 0:03:16.800 with Clay one of his attorneys, Jason Craig from the 0:03:16.800 --> 0:03:19.080 Innocence Project in New York. Jason, I think this is 0:03:19.120 --> 0:03:21.120 your first time on the show, but hopefully not the last. 0:03:21.240 --> 0:03:21.560 It is. 0:03:21.639 --> 0:03:23.600 I'm happy to be here and so thanks for having me. 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:25.959 All right, So, Clay, you were born a couple of 0:03:26.040 --> 0:03:29.680 years before I was, and grew up in Texas, no Ohio, Ohio. 0:03:29.760 --> 0:03:31.560 So tell us about that. What was your childhood like? 0:03:31.800 --> 0:03:33.320 My father was a truck driver mother. 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:37.440 You know, home care had a lot of kids, and 0:03:37.680 --> 0:03:39.400 my parents boke up when I was eight years old. 0:03:40.400 --> 0:03:42.360 I got shuttled for one family members to the other 0:03:42.440 --> 0:03:44.960 for about seven years or so till I was about fifteen, 0:03:45.960 --> 0:03:47.920 and decided to just take off my own so I 0:03:47.960 --> 0:03:51.400 started cross country, hitchecking across country. Wound up in California 0:03:51.440 --> 0:03:54.600 for a few years, got married that lasted about a year, 0:03:55.120 --> 0:03:57.680 got divorced, went back to Ohio, and decided to join 0:03:57.720 --> 0:03:58.280 the military. 0:03:58.600 --> 0:04:01.120 In nineteen eighty one. I was on an aircraft carrier. 0:04:01.640 --> 0:04:03.440 There was a large ship with a five thousand guys 0:04:03.440 --> 0:04:05.680 and we all could find a small spaces and under authority. 0:04:05.760 --> 0:04:08.880 So I think it gave me the strength and the fortitude. 0:04:08.400 --> 0:04:11.640 To endure whatever went through later in life. Wow served 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:12.480 about three three. 0:04:12.400 --> 0:04:13.520 And a half years of the military and I got 0:04:13.600 --> 0:04:15.720 run over by hit and run drug driver on my motorcycle. 0:04:16.040 --> 0:04:17.920 So I got discharged and went back to Ohio. 0:04:18.360 --> 0:04:20.719 And we're here at the INNOCENTCE Network conference. I'm so 0:04:20.800 --> 0:04:23.680 happy to be recording live and in person again. And 0:04:24.240 --> 0:04:27.000 you can't see Clay, but I can. And the way 0:04:27.040 --> 0:04:31.520 he dresses today, he looks like being a corporate boardroom somewhere. 0:04:31.600 --> 0:04:33.520 But you were a tough guy back then, right, And 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:37.120 no judgment here. You were involved in some let's just say, 0:04:37.120 --> 0:04:39.039 extra legal activities. 0:04:38.520 --> 0:04:41.880 Right absolutely where I was raised in Ohio, you know, impoverished. 0:04:42.040 --> 0:04:45.159 There's actually the Hell's Angels club to house, so a 0:04:45.200 --> 0:04:48.680 lot of people there indulging mind altering drugs. We can't 0:04:48.680 --> 0:04:51.159 afford to go to bail for skiing trips, so we 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:52.400 take ours locally. 0:04:53.200 --> 0:04:56.880 Internally, yes, I understand. And by the way, like I said, 0:04:56.920 --> 0:04:58.240 no judgment here. I mean when I was a kid, 0:04:58.279 --> 0:05:00.800 we probably could compare our old photos because I had 0:05:00.880 --> 0:05:03.159 so much hair I couldn't even see. I looked like 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:05.760 cousin it. And I used to smoke weed from sun 0:05:05.880 --> 0:05:09.040 up to sundown, and I was involved in some stuff 0:05:09.040 --> 0:05:11.200 I definitely shouldn't have been involved in it. So anyway, 0:05:12.120 --> 0:05:16.000 so you were into motorcycles, the Hell's Angels, drugs, You 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.799 did some dealing, and you moved to Texas at some point. 0:05:19.000 --> 0:05:21.800 You got married, had a son, Harley, a few months 0:05:21.800 --> 0:05:24.080 before all this happened, and he's here with us today. 0:05:24.120 --> 0:05:26.599 And Harley's uncle, your brother in law, Jerry Paps. He 0:05:26.720 --> 0:05:29.640 lived nearby with his wife and he used to come 0:05:29.680 --> 0:05:32.720 to you and a friend of yours, Doug Graham, for drugs. Now, 0:05:32.800 --> 0:05:35.480 from what I understand, Paps was into speed and coke 0:05:35.600 --> 0:05:37.840 and was led to believe that Doug had cut a 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:40.679 batch of whatever he was taking with too much baking 0:05:40.720 --> 0:05:43.920 soda or some other substance, even though it was you, 0:05:44.000 --> 0:05:46.560 Clay who did the cutting, and Doug was aware of this, 0:05:47.080 --> 0:05:51.039 And that leads us up to April nineteen, nineteen eighty six, Garland, Texas. 0:05:51.680 --> 0:05:55.599 Unbeknownst to Clay Paths had taken a gun from his sister, 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:59.520 Clay's wife, and later that day, Doug Graham's common law wife, 0:05:59.520 --> 0:06:03.000 who was twenty eight years old, her body was found 0:06:03.080 --> 0:06:05.839 in their home. And this is just awful, so brace yourself. 0:06:05.839 --> 0:06:09.640 But she had been tied, gagged, shot three times, and 0:06:09.960 --> 0:06:13.400 she had been raped. A rape kit was performed, but 0:06:13.560 --> 0:06:18.400 that evidence, unfortunately wasn't useful, or perhaps the blood type 0:06:18.440 --> 0:06:21.680 evidence wasn't useful to the state, because you got to 0:06:21.720 --> 0:06:23.840 imagine if it was, they would have brought it up. 0:06:24.000 --> 0:06:27.360 But we don't know either way. And however, the biological 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.719 evidence didn't become useful to Clay and really all of 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.800 us until DNA testing became available. Many years later. And 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.360 I want to turn to Jason here, because this really 0:06:35.520 --> 0:06:37.440 was a horrific crime. 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:41.520 Yeah, no, that's absolutely true, and that did get attention immediately, 0:06:41.720 --> 0:06:44.160 even on the local news. And it just so happened 0:06:44.160 --> 0:06:46.440 to be someone who Clay knew of. 0:06:46.640 --> 0:06:50.719 The victim's husband. They weren't really legally married. Doug Graham 0:06:50.920 --> 0:06:53.200 was really one of my best friends, and I mean 0:06:53.240 --> 0:06:55.840 we associated on Christmas, we played cards, we hung out 0:06:55.839 --> 0:06:57.280 together for several years. 0:06:57.120 --> 0:07:00.680 And so that was the initial nexus that even started 0:07:01.240 --> 0:07:04.000 any interest in Clay for any reason. 0:07:04.200 --> 0:07:07.159 There was no physical evidence connecting Clay to the crime. 0:07:07.640 --> 0:07:10.640 That wasn't the case for his brother in law. 0:07:10.680 --> 0:07:14.120 That's absolutely right when you said in the introduction that 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:18.000 most elementary school children could have solved this case within 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:21.600 a few hours and actually identified the actual perpetrator. 0:07:21.640 --> 0:07:22.040 You're right. 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.600 The police they had one individual, Gerald Papps, who was 0:07:25.640 --> 0:07:28.920 telling a series of different stories over and over again. 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.040 A person who had been found with blood on his 0:07:31.120 --> 0:07:34.400 shirt within hours of this homicide. A person who had 0:07:34.440 --> 0:07:38.040 proceeds from the victim's home, person who had pawned some 0:07:38.200 --> 0:07:40.520 items that were taken there, whose car had been at 0:07:40.520 --> 0:07:43.520 the victim's home earlier. In that day. None of this 0:07:43.600 --> 0:07:48.360 information was dependent on anyone else's statement. This was actual 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:52.200 physical evidence linking him to the crime. What the detectives 0:07:52.440 --> 0:07:56.680 also had was someone else, Clay, who was actually helping, 0:07:57.080 --> 0:07:59.840 who actually reached out and said there might be some 0:08:00.680 --> 0:08:02.960 to what had just happened when his brother in law 0:08:03.000 --> 0:08:05.160 had shown back up to return this gun. 0:08:05.640 --> 0:08:08.440 Correct, they came to my house, asked me a few questions, 0:08:08.480 --> 0:08:11.120 and I told him all about how my brother in 0:08:11.240 --> 0:08:14.360 law had taken the gun from his sister's purse prior 0:08:14.400 --> 0:08:15.800 to this. And he was standing at the door and 0:08:15.840 --> 0:08:17.440 I said, come on in. He said no, no, I got 0:08:17.440 --> 0:08:19.120 to go, I said, And he handed me the gun 0:08:19.760 --> 0:08:22.200 and I said, what are you doing with this? He said, well, 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.560 I ported this morning for Sandy's purse. I looked and 0:08:24.600 --> 0:08:26.520 I said, where's the clip? He said, oh yeah, and 0:08:26.560 --> 0:08:28.400 he hand me the clip and I noticed the clip 0:08:28.440 --> 0:08:30.000 was empty. I said, were it's the bullet? 0:08:30.080 --> 0:08:30.280 He said. 0:08:30.320 --> 0:08:31.800 I threw him out. I said, what are you talking about? 0:08:31.840 --> 0:08:34.120 Him in here? So he came in and he tells 0:08:34.160 --> 0:08:35.960 me the story. He claimed he was supposed to meet 0:08:36.120 --> 0:08:38.440 the victim's husband, Doug Graham, but he said he got 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:40.240 over there and before he could even get out of 0:08:40.240 --> 0:08:42.680 his car and go in, he saw two men pull 0:08:42.760 --> 0:08:45.600 up in a car and they went inside and he 0:08:45.600 --> 0:08:48.280 heard gunshots. So he got scared and left. So he 0:08:48.320 --> 0:08:50.520 came back to my house and he returned this gun. 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:53.880 He left my house, and I'm thinking that I didn't 0:08:53.880 --> 0:08:56.040 know anybody had been hurt at the time, so thinking, 0:08:56.040 --> 0:08:58.000 you know, he's just been up all night on speeding. 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:01.160 So I didn't pay much attention to it. And later 0:09:01.200 --> 0:09:04.000 that afternoon, I was supposed to meet Doug for another 0:09:04.200 --> 0:09:05.800 deal we're going to do, but and I wasn't even 0:09:05.800 --> 0:09:09.160 paying attention to the TV. It's almost like it played 0:09:10.000 --> 0:09:11.680 and then I heard it and I had to replay 0:09:11.679 --> 0:09:13.480 it in my mind to say, what did they just say? 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:16.400 And my wife, she knew the victims, and she said 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:17.920 that's her. 0:09:18.440 --> 0:09:21.680 I said, what And for some reason in your mind, 0:09:21.840 --> 0:09:24.239 you didn't leap to that conclusion. 0:09:24.679 --> 0:09:29.000 I just couldn't believe that he could do something like that. 0:09:29.160 --> 0:09:30.880 It'd be like somebody trying to tell you your brother 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.319 or your mother or something, which cape I mean, I 0:09:33.400 --> 0:09:34.960 knew the guy for several years. I'd been married to 0:09:35.000 --> 0:09:38.160 his sister for several years, and I just couldn't conceive it. 0:09:38.200 --> 0:09:40.760 That's just so far out of my realm and world 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:42.880 of you know. Like I said, I've never really heard 0:09:42.880 --> 0:09:45.200 anybody about myself through my own abuse of things. 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:47.000 So I believed his story. 0:09:47.280 --> 0:09:49.080 I believed that he was there, saw a couple people, 0:09:49.080 --> 0:09:50.959 and I really wanted him to just try to lead 0:09:51.000 --> 0:09:54.319 them to help solve the situation itself. I got to 0:09:54.320 --> 0:09:56.160 tell you, I pondered over it. I didn't call Doug 0:09:56.280 --> 0:09:58.200 until like the next day, because I tried to reach 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:00.360 Doug that night because I was supposed to meet and 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:04.559 somebody strange answered his house phone, and I thought, oh, 0:10:04.600 --> 0:10:06.000 I don't know who that is. I said, well, who 0:10:06.040 --> 0:10:07.040 are you trying to get ahold of? What do you 0:10:07.040 --> 0:10:09.600 want for it? So I hung up? So I said, man, 0:10:09.640 --> 0:10:11.880 something's really gone wrong over there. So I went back 0:10:11.920 --> 0:10:14.439 down to Jerry's house and I said, Jerry, I'm going 0:10:14.480 --> 0:10:15.400 to drive over to Dougs. 0:10:15.840 --> 0:10:16.520 You want to go with me? 0:10:16.559 --> 0:10:17.880 He said, oh, no, no, no, man, I don't want 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.120 to go anywhere near the place. And then I started 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:21.840 getting little more larry and worried. And now I'm in 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:24.280 a situation note where you know, if I do do this, 0:10:24.920 --> 0:10:27.000 I got to live with this sister, you know, And 0:10:27.080 --> 0:10:29.760 how do you live with your wife when you reported 0:10:29.800 --> 0:10:30.559 her brother. 0:10:30.600 --> 0:10:31.160 For something like that. 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:33.120 I mean, just the conflict in that my head and 0:10:33.160 --> 0:10:35.600 heart was. I thought to myself, you know what, if 0:10:35.600 --> 0:10:38.920 this was my sister, my wife, I'd want somebody help me. 0:10:39.720 --> 0:10:41.280 And the next day is when I decided to call 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:43.480 Doug and tell him how I think I had information. 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:00.520 He had just been born, he was five months old, 0:11:01.120 --> 0:11:04.200 and I was trying to knock off the stupid stuff, 0:11:04.280 --> 0:11:07.439 straighten myself up, because he was finally something more important to. 0:11:07.360 --> 0:11:10.640 Me and for our listeners. Clays Son Harley's here with 0:11:10.760 --> 0:11:13.480 us now. He's about twice the size of his father, 0:11:14.880 --> 0:11:16.600 and he's now thirty six years old. 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.280 And I just turned you know, like twenty five, you know, 0:11:19.360 --> 0:11:21.280 and they say the prefront, the cortex and mails doesn't 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:24.160 develop until twenty five when you start having huge consequences. 0:11:24.200 --> 0:11:25.439 And so I think it was just a matter of you. 0:11:25.360 --> 0:11:27.960 Know, age, and plus like I said, him being born, 0:11:27.960 --> 0:11:29.439 and it was my friend. 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:30.640 And so I wanted to do the right thing. 0:11:31.000 --> 0:11:33.920 But we see too often people like you who come 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.360 forward trying to help and wanted to be you know, 0:11:37.559 --> 0:11:42.440 good citizens and believed in the system as you did, 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:45.959 and it ends up putting them in the crosshairs. 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.840 Let me say this, in fairness of things, I kind 0:11:48.840 --> 0:11:51.439 of created this whole scenario in a way for myself. 0:11:52.960 --> 0:11:54.800 Jerry wanted more drugs. I didn't want get him to him. 0:11:54.880 --> 0:11:56.280 I told him he should call my friend Doug. I 0:11:56.320 --> 0:11:57.719 just wanted him to get out of my house and leave, 0:11:58.520 --> 0:12:00.560 So that's what led him to go over to Doug's house. 0:12:00.760 --> 0:12:03.400 Later though, Jerry would tell a story about how the 0:12:03.480 --> 0:12:08.040 drugs I had had had gotten from Doug earlier were inadequate. Well, 0:12:08.160 --> 0:12:11.160 quite frankly, it was my own doing. I had put 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:13.840 too much cut on the drugs. So there was no 0:12:13.920 --> 0:12:16.760 animosity between me and Doug because Doug didn't do anything wrong. 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:20.200 But I had told Jerry that just to get him 0:12:20.200 --> 0:12:21.800 out of my house. I said, Man, this does' still good. 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:25.400 You wanted this, So in fairness man, I sort of 0:12:25.440 --> 0:12:28.560 set the stage that led the police to believe that 0:12:28.640 --> 0:12:31.320 I had a reason that I was angry with Doug 0:12:31.360 --> 0:12:34.160 over it, but they didn't really look at the smaller facts, 0:12:34.160 --> 0:12:36.439 like Doug knew that wasn't true. Doug knew that I 0:12:36.440 --> 0:12:38.440 was supposed to meet him again that night to do 0:12:38.520 --> 0:12:40.760 another deal. I mean, so when they left my house 0:12:40.840 --> 0:12:42.600 that afternoon, they asked her if they could have the gun. 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:43.679 They asked if I had any more of the same 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.640 kind of bullets, and I happily rented and given to him. 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.160 They left, and within a few hours my brother in 0:12:49.240 --> 0:12:50.920 law's wife came to the house screening about how the 0:12:50.920 --> 0:12:53.800 police had showed up arrested him. And as I understood it, 0:12:53.840 --> 0:12:56.000 by then, they had already had a witness that positive 0:12:56.000 --> 0:12:58.720 identified his cart to see the crime. They called him 0:12:58.720 --> 0:13:01.360 with blood on his clothes, on tickets for stolen merchandise 0:13:01.440 --> 0:13:03.760 and maybe some stole merchandise. So I don't know, you know, 0:13:03.880 --> 0:13:05.400 like I said, it was clean cut. I was a 0:13:05.480 --> 0:13:07.439 rough looking guy, and so he gave him the story. 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:09.079 But I had borrowed his car, and then he didn't 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:10.800 go there, and they allowed him to just change his 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:13.560 story every time his facts proved wrong. They just let 0:13:13.640 --> 0:13:16.120 him change his story because they didn't see why Jerry 0:13:16.160 --> 0:13:18.320 would do something like that. You know, they were looking 0:13:18.360 --> 0:13:21.000 for the motive. And I'll tell you this, the detectives 0:13:21.000 --> 0:13:23.360 simply didn't want to believe that I had handed them 0:13:23.559 --> 0:13:26.280 the solution to this case on a silver platter. They 0:13:26.280 --> 0:13:28.800 were like, no word, detectives. There's gotta be more to this. 0:13:29.080 --> 0:13:30.840 It's got to be more complicated, you know, something for 0:13:30.920 --> 0:13:33.560 us to unravel and figure. I just don't think they 0:13:33.600 --> 0:13:35.760 could accept the fact that this would have been so 0:13:35.760 --> 0:13:38.360 simple had they just looked at the evidence as it stood. 0:13:38.840 --> 0:13:40.200 So they came back and arrested me. 0:13:40.559 --> 0:13:43.920 So you're arrested, taking to jail. Were you in jail 0:13:43.960 --> 0:13:45.480 awaiting trial? Didn't bail out? 0:13:46.040 --> 0:13:46.160 No? 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:48.040 Well, they had me on a I think a quarter 0:13:48.080 --> 0:13:50.600 main and how long did you think about eight months? 0:13:50.720 --> 0:13:53.120 Eventually just rolled out to where they came to me 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:55.800 and they said, look, we don't think you're actually there, 0:13:56.360 --> 0:13:59.680 but we need somebody to testify. If you'll testify against 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:00.760 your brother, will let you go. 0:14:01.520 --> 0:14:05.400 This was a situation where the state felt they needed 0:14:05.480 --> 0:14:08.880 a confession, someone who could turn into a witness who 0:14:08.920 --> 0:14:13.600 was actually there and one person had information because there 0:14:13.640 --> 0:14:16.680 was only one person there, Gerald Pepps, and Clay was 0:14:16.760 --> 0:14:19.640 not there, was not involved, and so he had no 0:14:19.720 --> 0:14:23.120 ability to offer what the state wanted, what the state 0:14:23.160 --> 0:14:24.840 felt they needed to prove a case. 0:14:25.200 --> 0:14:27.840 I believed in the just system, who hardly I just 0:14:27.840 --> 0:14:29.040 come out of the military. I'd never been in a 0:14:29.040 --> 0:14:32.520 re Serich trouble with any kind off and so I said, listen, 0:14:32.560 --> 0:14:34.040 I can't do that. You want me to lie to 0:14:34.040 --> 0:14:35.600 possibly send this guy to death row for something I 0:14:35.640 --> 0:14:36.440 don't know he did or not. 0:14:37.400 --> 0:14:38.000 It was okay. 0:14:38.200 --> 0:14:40.600 Well, they went to Jerry, my brother in law, and 0:14:40.600 --> 0:14:43.440 said same thing, and she got the standpoint of the 0:14:43.440 --> 0:14:45.760 figure said yeah, we're both there. He pulled the trigger. 0:14:46.520 --> 0:14:48.120 They let him go, and they gave me a life sentence. 0:14:48.560 --> 0:14:50.600 So he gave the state what they needed and he 0:14:50.680 --> 0:14:53.320 got a benefit and immediate benefit that lasted for him 0:14:53.520 --> 0:14:54.480 a couple decades. 0:14:54.680 --> 0:14:59.320 Yeah. I mean, there's that saying a body for a body, right, 0:14:59.480 --> 0:15:02.320 and we know that sadly, in too many cases, the 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:05.800 authorities are happy to just get somebody, close the case 0:15:05.840 --> 0:15:08.560 and move on. And then the idea that in this 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:12.000 case they had every reason to know, they may even 0:15:12.120 --> 0:15:18.560 have known that the guy who was weaving these bizarre tales. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.800 I mean, nobody could possibly believe that, but they did, 0:15:22.200 --> 0:15:23.120 or at least the jury did. 0:15:23.320 --> 0:15:26.040 There's a very telling note that we uncovered in the 0:15:26.040 --> 0:15:29.920 prosecutor's file years later when we're looking into the case, 0:15:30.520 --> 0:15:35.680 acknowledging that pass he was found within ours bloody T shirt. 0:15:35.840 --> 0:15:38.360 And the quote is you know something like this is 0:15:38.400 --> 0:15:41.120 a problem for us. Well, yeah, it's a big problem 0:15:41.160 --> 0:15:44.240 for us. You literally had the person who was connected 0:15:44.240 --> 0:15:47.280 to the crime physically with physical evidence. Who is your 0:15:47.280 --> 0:15:50.720 star witness. That's a huge problem for the state. And 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:53.520 we can never know exactly what was in the prosecutor's 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:56.160 mind when she wrote that note, but the context clues 0:15:56.200 --> 0:15:59.280 are fairly clear she understood that the person that they 0:15:59.320 --> 0:16:02.680 were relying on to solve this homicide was someone who 0:16:02.720 --> 0:16:06.320 was actually involved in the homicide. And of course now 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:09.160 we know that with certainty based on the DNA testing 0:16:09.160 --> 0:16:11.240 that was done years later, but even at the time 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:16.240 of trial, the contemporaneous notes that the prosecutor had recognized 0:16:16.680 --> 0:16:20.120 that they had a problem because perhaps their star witness 0:16:20.320 --> 0:16:22.000 was the person who was found with blood. And of 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:24.280 course this is the person who initially said he had 0:16:24.320 --> 0:16:26.600 nothing to do with the crime at all, wasn't even there, 0:16:26.880 --> 0:16:30.000 and then puts himself there. Eventually it changes the story 0:16:30.040 --> 0:16:32.160 that way, and then changes the story a little bit more, 0:16:32.240 --> 0:16:34.080 puts himself there and then changes the story a little 0:16:34.080 --> 0:16:36.080 bit more, and all a sudden, he's now inside the house, 0:16:36.600 --> 0:16:39.360 but never willing to say what we now know he 0:16:39.400 --> 0:16:40.120 actually did. 0:16:40.280 --> 0:16:41.720 One of the things that really stuck out to me 0:16:41.800 --> 0:16:43.920 when I was reading about the trial was the idea that, 0:16:44.120 --> 0:16:46.240 and I think this should be a red flag in 0:16:46.440 --> 0:16:51.360 every case, is when Jerry said that you forced him 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:54.400 at gunpoint to tie up the victim. That's not a 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:57.960 thing that happens except maybe in some weird TV show 0:16:58.040 --> 0:16:58.480 or movie. 0:16:58.560 --> 0:17:00.880 Right, supposed to be your criminal partner? Yeah, and you're 0:17:01.000 --> 0:17:01.840 pointing to God at him. 0:17:01.880 --> 0:17:04.000 Now, did I put a gun in and making carre 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:05.600 of the TV out to Jason? 0:17:05.800 --> 0:17:08.960 Unless there was something else presented, I don't even understand 0:17:09.040 --> 0:17:10.639 how a Jerry could get this one wrong. 0:17:10.760 --> 0:17:13.400 So what did they hear? They have a witness who 0:17:13.400 --> 0:17:17.480 claims to have been there during the entire crime, who 0:17:17.520 --> 0:17:19.800 is now backed by the state, called by the state, 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:23.640 who's walking them through what we now know is and 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.639 what Clay obviously knew then was a fictitious story about 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:29.520 what happened. And they're hearing it blow by blow from 0:17:29.560 --> 0:17:33.520 this witness as the state solicits information from him, and 0:17:33.560 --> 0:17:37.080 then the state calls other witnesses to vouch for Jerry, 0:17:37.400 --> 0:17:40.600 to present Jerry as this person who was overwhelmed by 0:17:40.640 --> 0:17:45.080 the ringleader. Who's the defendant there, Clay, but Jerry, of course, 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:48.399 in the state's eyes, was this person who wasn't a 0:17:48.480 --> 0:17:51.879 violent person, hadn't done other bad things, didn't look like 0:17:51.960 --> 0:17:53.040 Clay looked at the time. 0:17:53.400 --> 0:17:56.399 So what they presented was me as a criminal in general, 0:17:56.800 --> 0:18:00.160 wrote Harley Davison's carried John's did drugs? Looked like Charles Manson. 0:18:00.080 --> 0:18:03.600 And so, Clay, what was the evidence that was presented 0:18:04.200 --> 0:18:05.720 in your defense at the trial? 0:18:06.160 --> 0:18:09.000 Unfortunately? I mean my defense was, Look, I was at 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:11.720 home sleeping. I mean, how do you approve that? So 0:18:11.800 --> 0:18:14.399 the only person that was able to testify in my 0:18:14.480 --> 0:18:17.960 behalf was my wife, which was the sister of the 0:18:17.960 --> 0:18:21.280 witness against me, And so they just claimed she was 0:18:21.320 --> 0:18:24.560 a liar to protect me, not considering that, how do 0:18:24.600 --> 0:18:26.800 you think she could get up there and say, you know, look, 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:29.359 he didn't do it, in directly implicating her own brother. 0:18:29.720 --> 0:18:32.680 I think the failure is that the prosecutor, they knew 0:18:32.680 --> 0:18:35.000 the limitations of what they knew. They didn't need DNA 0:18:35.080 --> 0:18:37.399 testing in nineteen eighty six to know the limitations of 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.359 their case. They wrote about it in their notes and 0:18:40.400 --> 0:18:42.840 They should have been the ones who check the beyond 0:18:42.840 --> 0:18:46.040 a reasonable doubt standard before they put someone's life at stake. 0:18:46.359 --> 0:18:49.200 The jury goes out, how long did they deliverate Clay. 0:18:50.119 --> 0:18:52.320 I didn't have time to smoke a cigarette before they 0:18:52.320 --> 0:18:53.280 send the jury is back? 0:18:53.680 --> 0:18:58.240 Wow, so as minutes. Yeah, if you could take us 0:18:58.280 --> 0:18:59.360 back to that moment. 0:19:00.080 --> 0:19:02.119 I just went into a sort of shock state because 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:05.000 they really didn't impact me or hit me until they 0:19:05.040 --> 0:19:09.280 immediately conducted the penalty phase. And my wife at the time, 0:19:09.440 --> 0:19:13.280 Harley's mother, had got up and went to the bathroom 0:19:13.760 --> 0:19:15.560 and they ran a penalty's face so fast. By the 0:19:15.560 --> 0:19:17.800