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Speaker 1: The Innocence Network is a loose affiliation of independent innocence organizations,

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Speaker 1: and each year, members of these organizations, as well as

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Speaker 1: the hundreds of exanneries who they've helped free, gather for

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Speaker 1: the Innocence Network Conference, and it's a beautiful thing. For

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Speaker 1: one weekend. The ex hoonarees can all count on the

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Speaker 1: fact that there are other people around who share their experience,

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Speaker 1: and our team was honored to join them for their

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Speaker 1: twenty twenty two gathering in Arizona. We recorded a number

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Speaker 1: of interviews and the damage that these stories due to

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Speaker 1: your faith in humanity is only then restored by the

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Speaker 1: amazing people telling those stories. Clay Shabeau and his friend

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Speaker 1: Doug Graham were bikers who dealt some drugs in Garland, Texas.

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Speaker 1: Clay's brother in law, Jerry Papps, was a customer with

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Speaker 1: a newborn son. Clay was beginning to leave that life

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Speaker 1: behind when on April nineteenth, nineteen eighty six, Doug Graham's

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Speaker 1: common law wife was found in her home having been

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Speaker 1: sexually assaulted and shot down when Paps returned a gun

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Speaker 1: that he'd taken from his sister. He told her husband

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Speaker 1: Clay about how he was at Doug's that morning to

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Speaker 1: buy drugs, heard gunshots and fled. Witnesses had seen PAP's

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Speaker 1: card there, and he was later found wearing bloody clothing. However,

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Speaker 1: even with all of this evidence pointing towards PAPS, he

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Speaker 1: was able to redirect detectives towards his rough looking brother

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Speaker 1: in law, Clay Chabau. A rape kit was performed, but

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Speaker 1: in nineteen eighty six, the DNA testing that would one

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Speaker 1: day exclude Clay was not available. Curiously, no blood type

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Speaker 1: evidence was presented. Instead of simply using the evidence that

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Speaker 1: implicated PAPS, detectives decided that they needed a statement from Clay.

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Speaker 1: When Clay refused to testify to something that he didn't know,

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Speaker 1: detectives chose to ignore all evidence and the inconsistent statements

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Speaker 1: from PAPS to focus their efforts squarely on Clay, using

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Speaker 1: PAPS as their star witness and the implicit bias against bikers.

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Speaker 1: Clay Chabeau was sentenced to life and prison. It took

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Speaker 1: the evolution of DNA testing, the post conviction statutes allowing it,

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Speaker 1: and the dedicated team at the Innosis project to finally

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Speaker 1: prove what seemed to be evident to the prosecutor at

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Speaker 1: Clay's original trial. This is wrongful conviction. Welcome back to

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Speaker 1: Wrongful Conviction today's episode. How can I say this? If

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Speaker 1: I was going to teach a third grade class how

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Speaker 1: to solve a crime, I might present them with the

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Speaker 1: evidence that was available and abundant in this case, and

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Speaker 1: they would solve this case. I would say within an

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Speaker 1: hour at the most. I mean, this one came with instructions,

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Speaker 1: and yet the authorities managed to not only lock up

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Speaker 1: an NCMA, but let the obvious suspect remain free. And

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Speaker 1: of course I'm talking about the case of Clay Shabou. Clay,

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Speaker 1: I'm sorry for everything you went through. So thank you

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Speaker 1: for being here today. Thank you for having me and

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Speaker 1: with Clay one of his attorneys, Jason Craig from the

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Speaker 1: Innocence Project in New York. Jason, I think this is

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Speaker 1: your first time on the show, but hopefully not the last.

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Speaker 1: It is.

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Speaker 2: I'm happy to be here and so thanks for having me.

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Speaker 1: All right, So, Clay, you were born a couple of

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Speaker 1: years before I was, and grew up in Texas, no Ohio, Ohio.

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Speaker 1: So tell us about that. What was your childhood like?

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Speaker 3: My father was a truck driver mother.

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Speaker 4: You know, home care had a lot of kids, and

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Speaker 4: my parents boke up when I was eight years old.

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Speaker 4: I got shuttled for one family members to the other

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Speaker 4: for about seven years or so till I was about fifteen,

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Speaker 4: and decided to just take off my own so I

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Speaker 4: started cross country, hitchecking across country. Wound up in California

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Speaker 4: for a few years, got married that lasted about a year,

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Speaker 4: got divorced, went back to Ohio, and decided to join

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Speaker 4: the military.

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Speaker 3: In nineteen eighty one. I was on an aircraft carrier.

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Speaker 4: There was a large ship with a five thousand guys

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Speaker 4: and we all could find a small spaces and under authority.

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Speaker 4: So I think it gave me the strength and the fortitude.

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Speaker 3: To endure whatever went through later in life. Wow served

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Speaker 3: about three three.

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Speaker 4: And a half years of the military and I got

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Speaker 4: run over by hit and run drug driver on my motorcycle.

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Speaker 4: So I got discharged and went back to Ohio.

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Speaker 1: And we're here at the INNOCENTCE Network conference. I'm so

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Speaker 1: happy to be recording live and in person again. And

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Speaker 1: you can't see Clay, but I can. And the way

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Speaker 1: he dresses today, he looks like being a corporate boardroom somewhere.

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Speaker 1: But you were a tough guy back then, right, And

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Speaker 1: no judgment here. You were involved in some let's just say,

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Speaker 1: extra legal activities.

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Speaker 4: Right absolutely where I was raised in Ohio, you know, impoverished.

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Speaker 4: There's actually the Hell's Angels club to house, so a

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Speaker 4: lot of people there indulging mind altering drugs. We can't

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Speaker 4: afford to go to bail for skiing trips, so we

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Speaker 4: take ours locally.

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Speaker 1: Internally, yes, I understand. And by the way, like I said,

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Speaker 1: no judgment here. I mean when I was a kid,

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Speaker 1: we probably could compare our old photos because I had

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Speaker 1: so much hair I couldn't even see. I looked like

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Speaker 1: cousin it. And I used to smoke weed from sun

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Speaker 1: up to sundown, and I was involved in some stuff

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Speaker 1: I definitely shouldn't have been involved in it. So anyway,

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Speaker 1: so you were into motorcycles, the Hell's Angels, drugs, You

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Speaker 1: did some dealing, and you moved to Texas at some point.

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Speaker 1: You got married, had a son, Harley, a few months

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Speaker 1: before all this happened, and he's here with us today.

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Speaker 1: And Harley's uncle, your brother in law, Jerry Paps. He

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Speaker 1: lived nearby with his wife and he used to come

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Speaker 1: to you and a friend of yours, Doug Graham, for drugs. Now,

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Speaker 1: from what I understand, Paps was into speed and coke

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Speaker 1: and was led to believe that Doug had cut a

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Speaker 1: batch of whatever he was taking with too much baking

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Speaker 1: soda or some other substance, even though it was you,

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Speaker 1: Clay who did the cutting, and Doug was aware of this,

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Speaker 1: And that leads us up to April nineteen, nineteen eighty six, Garland, Texas.

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Speaker 1: Unbeknownst to Clay Paths had taken a gun from his sister,

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Speaker 1: Clay's wife, and later that day, Doug Graham's common law wife,

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Speaker 1: who was twenty eight years old, her body was found

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Speaker 1: in their home. And this is just awful, so brace yourself.

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Speaker 1: But she had been tied, gagged, shot three times, and

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Speaker 1: she had been raped. A rape kit was performed, but

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Speaker 1: that evidence, unfortunately wasn't useful, or perhaps the blood type

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Speaker 1: evidence wasn't useful to the state, because you got to

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Speaker 1: imagine if it was, they would have brought it up.

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Speaker 1: But we don't know either way. And however, the biological

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Speaker 1: evidence didn't become useful to Clay and really all of

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Speaker 1: us until DNA testing became available. Many years later. And

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Speaker 1: I want to turn to Jason here, because this really

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Speaker 1: was a horrific crime.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that's absolutely true, and that did get attention immediately,

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Speaker 2: even on the local news. And it just so happened

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Speaker 2: to be someone who Clay knew of.

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Speaker 4: The victim's husband. They weren't really legally married. Doug Graham

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Speaker 4: was really one of my best friends, and I mean

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Speaker 4: we associated on Christmas, we played cards, we hung out

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Speaker 4: together for several years.

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Speaker 2: And so that was the initial nexus that even started

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Speaker 2: any interest in Clay for any reason.

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Speaker 1: There was no physical evidence connecting Clay to the crime.

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Speaker 1: That wasn't the case for his brother in law.

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Speaker 2: That's absolutely right when you said in the introduction that

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Speaker 2: most elementary school children could have solved this case within

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Speaker 2: a few hours and actually identified the actual perpetrator.

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Speaker 1: You're right.

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Speaker 2: The police they had one individual, Gerald Papps, who was

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Speaker 2: telling a series of different stories over and over again.

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Speaker 2: A person who had been found with blood on his

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Speaker 2: shirt within hours of this homicide. A person who had

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Speaker 2: proceeds from the victim's home, person who had pawned some

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Speaker 2: items that were taken there, whose car had been at

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Speaker 2: the victim's home earlier. In that day. None of this

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Speaker 2: information was dependent on anyone else's statement. This was actual

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Speaker 2: physical evidence linking him to the crime. What the detectives

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Speaker 2: also had was someone else, Clay, who was actually helping,

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Speaker 2: who actually reached out and said there might be some

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Speaker 2: to what had just happened when his brother in law

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Speaker 2: had shown back up to return this gun.

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Speaker 4: Correct, they came to my house, asked me a few questions,

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Speaker 4: and I told him all about how my brother in

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Speaker 4: law had taken the gun from his sister's purse prior

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Speaker 4: to this. And he was standing at the door and

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Speaker 4: I said, come on in. He said no, no, I got

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Speaker 4: to go, I said, And he handed me the gun

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Speaker 4: and I said, what are you doing with this? He said, well,

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Speaker 4: I ported this morning for Sandy's purse. I looked and

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Speaker 4: I said, where's the clip? He said, oh yeah, and

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Speaker 4: he hand me the clip and I noticed the clip

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Speaker 4: was empty. I said, were it's the bullet?

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Speaker 3: He said.

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Speaker 4: I threw him out. I said, what are you talking about?

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Speaker 4: Him in here? So he came in and he tells

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Speaker 4: me the story. He claimed he was supposed to meet

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Speaker 4: the victim's husband, Doug Graham, but he said he got

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Speaker 4: over there and before he could even get out of

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Speaker 4: his car and go in, he saw two men pull

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Speaker 4: up in a car and they went inside and he

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Speaker 4: heard gunshots. So he got scared and left. So he

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Speaker 4: came back to my house and he returned this gun.

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Speaker 4: He left my house, and I'm thinking that I didn't

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Speaker 4: know anybody had been hurt at the time, so thinking,

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Speaker 4: you know, he's just been up all night on speeding.

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Speaker 4: So I didn't pay much attention to it. And later

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Speaker 4: that afternoon, I was supposed to meet Doug for another

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Speaker 4: deal we're going to do, but and I wasn't even

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Speaker 4: paying attention to the TV. It's almost like it played

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Speaker 4: and then I heard it and I had to replay

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Speaker 4: it in my mind to say, what did they just say?

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Speaker 4: And my wife, she knew the victims, and she said

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Speaker 4: that's her.

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Speaker 1: I said, what And for some reason in your mind,

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Speaker 1: you didn't leap to that conclusion.

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Speaker 4: I just couldn't believe that he could do something like that.

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Speaker 4: It'd be like somebody trying to tell you your brother

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Speaker 4: or your mother or something, which cape I mean, I

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Speaker 4: knew the guy for several years. I'd been married to

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Speaker 4: his sister for several years, and I just couldn't conceive it.

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Speaker 4: That's just so far out of my realm and world

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Speaker 4: of you know. Like I said, I've never really heard

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Speaker 4: anybody about myself through my own abuse of things.

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Speaker 3: So I believed his story.

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Speaker 4: I believed that he was there, saw a couple people,

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Speaker 4: and I really wanted him to just try to lead

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Speaker 4: them to help solve the situation itself. I got to

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Speaker 4: tell you, I pondered over it. I didn't call Doug

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Speaker 4: until like the next day, because I tried to reach

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Speaker 4: Doug that night because I was supposed to meet and

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Speaker 4: somebody strange answered his house phone, and I thought, oh,

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Speaker 4: I don't know who that is. I said, well, who

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Speaker 4: are you trying to get ahold of? What do you

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Speaker 4: want for it? So I hung up? So I said, man,

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Speaker 4: something's really gone wrong over there. So I went back

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Speaker 4: down to Jerry's house and I said, Jerry, I'm going

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Speaker 4: to drive over to Dougs.

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Speaker 3: You want to go with me?

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Speaker 4: He said, oh, no, no, no, man, I don't want

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Speaker 4: to go anywhere near the place. And then I started

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Speaker 4: getting little more larry and worried. And now I'm in

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Speaker 4: a situation note where you know, if I do do this,

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Speaker 4: I got to live with this sister, you know, And

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Speaker 4: how do you live with your wife when you reported

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Speaker 4: her brother.

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Speaker 3: For something like that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, just the conflict in that my head and

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Speaker 4: heart was. I thought to myself, you know what, if

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Speaker 4: this was my sister, my wife, I'd want somebody help me.

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Speaker 4: And the next day is when I decided to call

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Speaker 4: Doug and tell him how I think I had information.

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Speaker 4: He had just been born, he was five months old,

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Speaker 4: and I was trying to knock off the stupid stuff,

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Speaker 4: straighten myself up, because he was finally something more important to.

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Speaker 1: Me and for our listeners. Clays Son Harley's here with

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Speaker 1: us now. He's about twice the size of his father,

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Speaker 1: and he's now thirty six years old.

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Speaker 4: And I just turned you know, like twenty five, you know,

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Speaker 4: and they say the prefront, the cortex and mails doesn't

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Speaker 4: develop until twenty five when you start having huge consequences.

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Speaker 3: And so I think it was just a matter of you.

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Speaker 4: Know, age, and plus like I said, him being born,

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Speaker 4: and it was my friend.

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Speaker 3: And so I wanted to do the right thing.

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Speaker 1: But we see too often people like you who come

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Speaker 1: forward trying to help and wanted to be you know,

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Speaker 1: good citizens and believed in the system as you did,

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Speaker 1: and it ends up putting them in the crosshairs.

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Speaker 4: Let me say this, in fairness of things, I kind

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Speaker 4: of created this whole scenario in a way for myself.

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Speaker 4: Jerry wanted more drugs. I didn't want get him to him.

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Speaker 4: I told him he should call my friend Doug. I

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Speaker 4: just wanted him to get out of my house and leave,

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Speaker 4: So that's what led him to go over to Doug's house.

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Speaker 4: Later though, Jerry would tell a story about how the

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Speaker 4: drugs I had had had gotten from Doug earlier were inadequate. Well,

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Speaker 4: quite frankly, it was my own doing. I had put

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Speaker 4: too much cut on the drugs. So there was no

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Speaker 4: animosity between me and Doug because Doug didn't do anything wrong.

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Speaker 4: But I had told Jerry that just to get him

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Speaker 4: out of my house. I said, Man, this does' still good.

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Speaker 4: You wanted this, So in fairness man, I sort of

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Speaker 4: set the stage that led the police to believe that

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Speaker 4: I had a reason that I was angry with Doug

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Speaker 4: over it, but they didn't really look at the smaller facts,

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Speaker 4: like Doug knew that wasn't true. Doug knew that I

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Speaker 4: was supposed to meet him again that night to do

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Speaker 4: another deal. I mean, so when they left my house

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Speaker 4: that afternoon, they asked her if they could have the gun.

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Speaker 4: They asked if I had any more of the same

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Speaker 4: kind of bullets, and I happily rented and given to him.

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Speaker 4: They left, and within a few hours my brother in

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Speaker 4: law's wife came to the house screening about how the

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Speaker 4: police had showed up arrested him. And as I understood it,

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Speaker 4: by then, they had already had a witness that positive

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Speaker 4: identified his cart to see the crime. They called him

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Speaker 4: with blood on his clothes, on tickets for stolen merchandise

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Speaker 4: and maybe some stole merchandise. So I don't know, you know,

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Speaker 4: like I said, it was clean cut. I was a

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Speaker 4: rough looking guy, and so he gave him the story.

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Speaker 4: But I had borrowed his car, and then he didn't

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Speaker 4: go there, and they allowed him to just change his

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Speaker 4: story every time his facts proved wrong. They just let

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Speaker 4: him change his story because they didn't see why Jerry

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Speaker 4: would do something like that. You know, they were looking

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Speaker 4: for the motive. And I'll tell you this, the detectives

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Speaker 4: simply didn't want to believe that I had handed them

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Speaker 4: the solution to this case on a silver platter. They

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Speaker 4: were like, no word, detectives. There's gotta be more to this.

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Speaker 4: It's got to be more complicated, you know, something for

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Speaker 4: us to unravel and figure. I just don't think they

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Speaker 4: could accept the fact that this would have been so

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Speaker 4: simple had they just looked at the evidence as it stood.

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Speaker 3: So they came back and arrested me.

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Speaker 1: So you're arrested, taking to jail. Were you in jail

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Speaker 1: awaiting trial? Didn't bail out?

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Speaker 3: No?

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Speaker 4: Well, they had me on a I think a quarter

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Speaker 4: main and how long did you think about eight months?

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Speaker 4: Eventually just rolled out to where they came to me

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Speaker 4: and they said, look, we don't think you're actually there,

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Speaker 4: but we need somebody to testify. If you'll testify against

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Speaker 4: your brother, will let you go.

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Speaker 2: This was a situation where the state felt they needed

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Speaker 2: a confession, someone who could turn into a witness who

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Speaker 2: was actually there and one person had information because there

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Speaker 2: was only one person there, Gerald Pepps, and Clay was

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Speaker 2: not there, was not involved, and so he had no

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Speaker 2: ability to offer what the state wanted, what the state

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Speaker 2: felt they needed to prove a case.

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Speaker 4: I believed in the just system, who hardly I just

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Speaker 4: come out of the military. I'd never been in a

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Speaker 4: re Serich trouble with any kind off and so I said, listen,

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Speaker 4: I can't do that. You want me to lie to

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Speaker 4: possibly send this guy to death row for something I

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Speaker 4: don't know he did or not.

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Speaker 3: It was okay.

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Speaker 4: Well, they went to Jerry, my brother in law, and

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Speaker 4: said same thing, and she got the standpoint of the

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Speaker 4: figure said yeah, we're both there. He pulled the trigger.

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Speaker 4: They let him go, and they gave me a life sentence.

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Speaker 2: So he gave the state what they needed and he

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Speaker 2: got a benefit and immediate benefit that lasted for him

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Speaker 2: a couple decades.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, there's that saying a body for a body, right,

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Speaker 1: and we know that sadly, in too many cases, the

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Speaker 1: authorities are happy to just get somebody, close the case

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Speaker 1: and move on. And then the idea that in this

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Speaker 1: case they had every reason to know, they may even

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Speaker 1: have known that the guy who was weaving these bizarre tales.

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Speaker 1: I mean, nobody could possibly believe that, but they did,

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Speaker 1: or at least the jury did.

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Speaker 2: There's a very telling note that we uncovered in the

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Speaker 2: prosecutor's file years later when we're looking into the case,

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Speaker 2: acknowledging that pass he was found within ours bloody T shirt.

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Speaker 2: And the quote is you know something like this is

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Speaker 2: a problem for us. Well, yeah, it's a big problem

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Speaker 2: for us. You literally had the person who was connected

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Speaker 2: to the crime physically with physical evidence. Who is your

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Speaker 2: star witness. That's a huge problem for the state. And

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Speaker 2: we can never know exactly what was in the prosecutor's

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Speaker 2: mind when she wrote that note, but the context clues

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Speaker 2: are fairly clear she understood that the person that they

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Speaker 2: were relying on to solve this homicide was someone who

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Speaker 2: was actually involved in the homicide. And of course now

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Speaker 2: we know that with certainty based on the DNA testing

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Speaker 2: that was done years later, but even at the time

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Speaker 2: of trial, the contemporaneous notes that the prosecutor had recognized

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Speaker 2: that they had a problem because perhaps their star witness

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Speaker 2: was the person who was found with blood. And of

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Speaker 2: course this is the person who initially said he had

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Speaker 2: nothing to do with the crime at all, wasn't even there,

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Speaker 2: and then puts himself there. Eventually it changes the story

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Speaker 2: that way, and then changes the story a little bit more,

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Speaker 2: puts himself there and then changes the story a little

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Speaker 2: bit more, and all a sudden, he's now inside the house,

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Speaker 2: but never willing to say what we now know he

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Speaker 2: actually did.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that really stuck out to me

348
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Speaker 1: when I was reading about the trial was the idea that,

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Speaker 1: and I think this should be a red flag in

350
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Speaker 1: every case, is when Jerry said that you forced him

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Speaker 1: at gunpoint to tie up the victim. That's not a

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Speaker 1: thing that happens except maybe in some weird TV show

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Speaker 1: or movie.

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Speaker 3: Right, supposed to be your criminal partner? Yeah, and you're

355
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Speaker 3: pointing to God at him.

356
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Speaker 4: Now, did I put a gun in and making carre

357
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Speaker 4: of the TV out to Jason?

358
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Speaker 1: Unless there was something else presented, I don't even understand

359
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Speaker 1: how a Jerry could get this one wrong.

360
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Speaker 2: So what did they hear? They have a witness who

361
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Speaker 2: claims to have been there during the entire crime, who

362
00:17:17,520 --> 00:17:19,800
Speaker 2: is now backed by the state, called by the state,

363
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Speaker 2: who's walking them through what we now know is and

364
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,639
Speaker 2: what Clay obviously knew then was a fictitious story about

365
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Speaker 2: what happened. And they're hearing it blow by blow from

366
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Speaker 2: this witness as the state solicits information from him, and

367
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:37,080
Speaker 2: then the state calls other witnesses to vouch for Jerry,

368
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Speaker 2: to present Jerry as this person who was overwhelmed by

369
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Speaker 2: the ringleader. Who's the defendant there, Clay, but Jerry, of course,

370
00:17:45,359 --> 00:17:48,399
Speaker 2: in the state's eyes, was this person who wasn't a

371
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Speaker 2: violent person, hadn't done other bad things, didn't look like

372
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Speaker 2: Clay looked at the time.

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Speaker 4: So what they presented was me as a criminal in general,

374
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Speaker 4: wrote Harley Davison's carried John's did drugs? Looked like Charles Manson.

375
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Speaker 1: And so, Clay, what was the evidence that was presented

376
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Speaker 1: in your defense at the trial?

377
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Speaker 4: Unfortunately? I mean my defense was, Look, I was at

378
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Speaker 4: home sleeping. I mean, how do you approve that? So

379
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Speaker 4: the only person that was able to testify in my

380
00:18:14,480 --> 00:18:17,960
Speaker 4: behalf was my wife, which was the sister of the

381
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Speaker 4: witness against me, And so they just claimed she was

382
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Speaker 4: a liar to protect me, not considering that, how do

383
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Speaker 4: you think she could get up there and say, you know, look,

384
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Speaker 4: he didn't do it, in directly implicating her own brother.

385
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Speaker 2: I think the failure is that the prosecutor, they knew

386
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Speaker 2: the limitations of what they knew. They didn't need DNA

387
00:18:35,080 --> 00:18:37,399
Speaker 2: testing in nineteen eighty six to know the limitations of

388
00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:40,359
Speaker 2: their case. They wrote about it in their notes and

389
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Speaker 2: They should have been the ones who check the beyond

390
00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,040
Speaker 2: a reasonable doubt standard before they put someone's life at stake.

391
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Speaker 1: The jury goes out, how long did they deliverate Clay.

392
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Speaker 4: I didn't have time to smoke a cigarette before they

393
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Speaker 4: send the jury is back?

394
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Speaker 1: Wow, so as minutes. Yeah, if you could take us

395
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Speaker 1: back to that moment.

396
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Speaker 4: I just went into a sort of shock state because

397
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Speaker 4: they really didn't impact me or hit me until they

398
00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:09,280
Speaker 4: immediately conducted the penalty phase. And my wife at the time,

399
00:19:09,440 --> 00:19:13,280
Speaker 4: Harley's mother, had got up and went to the bathroom

400
00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:15,560
Speaker 4: and they ran a penalty's face so fast. By the

401
00:19:15,560 --> 00:19:17,800
Speaker 4: time she came back from the bathroom, they were already

402
00:19:17,840 --> 00:19:18,720
Speaker 4: an ounce of life.

403
00:19:19,640 --> 00:19:19,800
Speaker 3: You know.

404
00:19:19,960 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 4: As soon as they do that, they should stand up

405
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:23,360
Speaker 4: and I drag you the back, and I remember asking

406
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Speaker 4: if they would put me in a private cell because

407
00:19:25,000 --> 00:19:26,480
Speaker 4: I didn't want to be in with the crowd of

408
00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:30,159
Speaker 4: you know, other people being transport around, and I just

409
00:19:30,359 --> 00:19:33,280
Speaker 4: wanted to scream and tear and I did. In my mind,

410
00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:50,800
Speaker 4: prison is ninety percent boreder punctuated by ten percent cheer

411
00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,159
Speaker 4: stark terror. You just after the over the years, you

412
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Speaker 4: adapt you have to. When I went in Texas Francis.

413
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Speaker 4: It was a run by what they call the building

414
00:19:59,720 --> 00:20:02,360
Speaker 4: ten or system. Inmates were running it. There was only

415
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,200
Speaker 4: a handful of guards through three thousand inmates. The inmates

416
00:20:06,200 --> 00:20:10,200
Speaker 4: were empowered with authority weapons to maintain the for the system.

417
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Speaker 3: It was brutal, absolutely brutal.

418
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Speaker 4: You know, it's odd even though he was run by

419
00:20:15,160 --> 00:20:18,480
Speaker 4: prisoners and it's brutal if you followed the rules with them,

420
00:20:18,760 --> 00:20:20,840
Speaker 4: there was a lot more internal freedom and it was

421
00:20:20,880 --> 00:20:23,920
Speaker 4: more of a physical thing. In fact, it wasn't until

422
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:28,040
Speaker 4: some years to follow that a large lawsuit Federal brought

423
00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:30,600
Speaker 4: in special masters and they brought the guards in and

424
00:20:30,720 --> 00:20:34,159
Speaker 4: they took the building tenders out. Became more of a

425
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:38,240
Speaker 4: mental pressure. But I had to say again, because I

426
00:20:38,240 --> 00:20:40,600
Speaker 4: was a little older, I think, and I had gone

427
00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,560
Speaker 4: through the military, and I used my head the gang

428
00:20:43,560 --> 00:20:45,399
Speaker 4: members and things. I taught him how to do things

429
00:20:45,400 --> 00:20:48,600
Speaker 4: that they weren't doing that made it profitable for them.

430
00:20:48,920 --> 00:20:54,080
Speaker 4: So I became an asset, and so they would say

431
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,199
Speaker 4: leave him alone. So I tried to stay, you know,

432
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Speaker 4: just actively involved with either education or something to keep

433
00:21:00,600 --> 00:21:03,760
Speaker 4: my mind off of, you know, the day to day mundane.

434
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Speaker 1: And was there a lowest and the highest point for

435
00:21:06,200 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 1: you while you were in there.

436
00:21:07,440 --> 00:21:09,280
Speaker 4: I had a number of them, the one in the

437
00:21:09,359 --> 00:21:12,040
Speaker 4: first when I pother died, and at those points I

438
00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:20,280
Speaker 4: considered suicide, but that's not in my dnay. I even

439
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:22,600
Speaker 4: had it all figured out several ways to do it.

440
00:21:23,560 --> 00:21:26,119
Speaker 4: But quite frankly, I knew this. I see my mind

441
00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:29,119
Speaker 4: strip away everything else. My mind knew it didn't do

442
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:34,119
Speaker 4: what it was being punished for, and it just needed

443
00:21:34,119 --> 00:21:36,800
Speaker 4: to know it had a way out if it had

444
00:21:36,800 --> 00:21:39,520
Speaker 4: to at all last resort. So once I had that

445
00:21:39,600 --> 00:21:42,920
Speaker 4: option of suicide, knowing that I do have the option

446
00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,600
Speaker 4: to get out of this if I have to, it

447
00:21:44,600 --> 00:21:48,000
Speaker 4: gave me the strength to go on. Finally, when you know,

448
00:21:48,080 --> 00:21:49,840
Speaker 4: after the years and years of Dallas telling me that

449
00:21:49,840 --> 00:21:51,720
Speaker 4: they'd lost the evidence, I knew they had to be

450
00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:53,240
Speaker 4: a lie, and I fought it for ten twelve years

451
00:21:53,280 --> 00:21:55,680
Speaker 4: and finally found it. And then the high point would

452
00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,399
Speaker 4: have been on a little step was when Texas finally

453
00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:01,080
Speaker 4: passed a law whatever that said, you know, if you

454
00:22:01,119 --> 00:22:04,119
Speaker 4: want to apply for DNA testing. That gave me some hope.

455
00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:07,520
Speaker 4: But this would have been when DNA testing proved that

456
00:22:07,720 --> 00:22:11,560
Speaker 4: Jerry paps Semens recovered from the rape kit, his DNA

457
00:22:11,680 --> 00:22:15,200
Speaker 4: was on her hands, DNA the fingernails, and then I

458
00:22:15,280 --> 00:22:16,959
Speaker 4: knew that, you know, we probably had a pretty good

459
00:22:16,960 --> 00:22:18,359
Speaker 4: shot of at least, you know.

460
00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:20,639
Speaker 3: Convincing them that they had it wrong and might want

461
00:22:20,680 --> 00:22:21,159
Speaker 3: to look at it.

462
00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:26,679
Speaker 2: Again, identifying perhaps DNA and the extremely probative items of evidence.

463
00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:30,560
Speaker 2: As Clay recounted, it was the key that turned the story.

464
00:22:30,640 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: And at that point in time, I think Clay's perception

465
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:36,399
Speaker 2: is as accurate. Even the people who were absolutely convinced

466
00:22:36,720 --> 00:22:38,760
Speaker 2: that the prosecutor might have been on the right path

467
00:22:38,800 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 2: from the get go, even those individuals had to start

468
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,040
Speaker 2: opening their eyes and wonder, now, what was going on.

469
00:22:44,840 --> 00:22:48,840
Speaker 1: While this case came with instructions from the very beginning,

470
00:22:49,160 --> 00:22:55,280
Speaker 1: now twenty years later or so, it came with scientific certainty.

471
00:22:55,600 --> 00:22:58,199
Speaker 1: The actual perpetrator was identified.

472
00:22:57,720 --> 00:22:59,959
Speaker 2: The state located him. He had gone back to Ohio

473
00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:04,000
Speaker 2: by that point in time, and eventually was arrested for

474
00:23:04,040 --> 00:23:06,919
Speaker 2: the crime. Now this is the state's star witness, but

475
00:23:07,000 --> 00:23:09,560
Speaker 2: they did, with the DNA evidence testing that was done,

476
00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:14,840
Speaker 2: identify him and ultimately convict him. After Clay's conviction was overturned.

477
00:23:14,440 --> 00:23:16,680
Speaker 1: Jason, I think most people in the audience are probably

478
00:23:16,680 --> 00:23:23,720
Speaker 1: thinking now, well, amen, right, finally justice, exoneration, compensation, and

479
00:23:23,760 --> 00:23:24,800
Speaker 1: in this case.

480
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,159
Speaker 2: That's not the story of Clay's case right now. So tragically,

481
00:23:28,280 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 2: after the DNA evidence identified Paps, the state decided to

482
00:23:32,800 --> 00:23:37,320
Speaker 2: re prosecute Clay. They knew that they had been lied to,

483
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,080
Speaker 2: that they allowed someone to lie to the jury, they

484
00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 2: knew the actual perpetrator who had been convicted. They decided

485
00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,320
Speaker 2: to re prosecute Clay, and it gets worse. By that

486
00:23:48,359 --> 00:23:52,480
Speaker 2: important time. Clay was fortunate that some of the physical

487
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:56,640
Speaker 2: evidence was retained the evidence that identified Paps, but much

488
00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,320
Speaker 2: of the physical evidence had been lost by that point

489
00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,560
Speaker 2: in time. So the state's plan was to just run

490
00:24:02,600 --> 00:24:06,720
Speaker 2: it back now recognizing that the person who they had

491
00:24:07,320 --> 00:24:09,280
Speaker 2: put all their faith in the first time was the

492
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 2: actual perpetrator, but unwilling to recognize that the case had

493
00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:18,320
Speaker 2: no legs to stand on against Clay, and Clay was

494
00:24:18,359 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 2: forced to contemplate going to trial again without even the

495
00:24:21,840 --> 00:24:25,000
Speaker 2: ability to examine and retest some of the other evidence

496
00:24:25,000 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 2: that the state at this point had lost. So, for example,

497
00:24:28,119 --> 00:24:31,720
Speaker 2: the purported murder weapon we mentioned earlier, Jerry Papps, when

498
00:24:31,720 --> 00:24:34,959
Speaker 2: he was arrested, had a bloody T shirt that had

499
00:24:35,000 --> 00:24:38,720
Speaker 2: been lost. We couldn't demonstrate that even perhaps fourth or

500
00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,199
Speaker 2: fifth or eighth version of events wasn't accurate had we

501
00:24:42,280 --> 00:24:45,879
Speaker 2: been able to identify the victim's blood on his T shirt,

502
00:24:45,920 --> 00:24:48,280
Speaker 2: for example. And I have to say I was actually

503
00:24:48,280 --> 00:24:51,080
Speaker 2: hopeful that we would be able to convince the judge

504
00:24:51,080 --> 00:24:54,040
Speaker 2: once we knew we couldn't convince the prosecutor to just

505
00:24:54,080 --> 00:24:56,760
Speaker 2: dismiss it against Clay, because the misconduct in this case

506
00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:00,679
Speaker 2: was so deep. We tried from all angles, both negotiating

507
00:25:00,680 --> 00:25:03,240
Speaker 2: with the prosecutor, we tried with the judge, and we

508
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:08,240
Speaker 2: weren't successful. And ultimately that left Clay once again in

509
00:25:08,280 --> 00:25:10,760
Speaker 2: the moment where he's posed with a question that he

510
00:25:10,800 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 2: should have never had to face. What to do when

511
00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:16,359
Speaker 2: the prosecutor comes to him. Now, you can walk out

512
00:25:16,840 --> 00:25:20,640
Speaker 2: time served, but on one condition, you have to plead guilty.

513
00:25:21,160 --> 00:25:23,520
Speaker 1: It's hard to figure out what master they're serving at

514
00:25:23,520 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 1: this point in time, too. Right, they have the guy.

515
00:25:25,880 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: The guys they got him the right guy. Now finally

516
00:25:29,359 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 1: he got the right guy. Even though you guys did

517
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,400
Speaker 1: everything you possibly could to fuck this up as bad

518
00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:36,720
Speaker 1: as you possibly could. Now the right guy's in prison.

519
00:25:36,640 --> 00:25:40,160
Speaker 2: And that was extremely frustrating, and so, as Clay mentioned,

520
00:25:40,440 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 2: you know, he had been failed by the system before

521
00:25:42,520 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: he had seen that happen. He'd seen what jurors did

522
00:25:46,600 --> 00:25:49,760
Speaker 2: very quickly at the original trial. And I don't fault

523
00:25:49,760 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 2: Clay for a second for making the decision that allowed

524
00:25:53,320 --> 00:25:55,119
Speaker 2: him to walk out and be with us today.

525
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: And as I mentioned earlier, Clay's son, Harley is here

526
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 1: with us right now, so we wanted to give him

527
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:05,159
Speaker 1: a chance to talk about his memories and what the

528
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:08,480
Speaker 1: day his father was freed, what that time was like

529
00:26:08,520 --> 00:26:08,880
Speaker 1: for him.

530
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 5: I don't know how to explain happiness and anger at

531
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,160
Speaker 5: the same time. His brother is the one that brought

532
00:26:16,200 --> 00:26:18,399
Speaker 5: him home, and I remember, I remember it. It was

533
00:26:18,440 --> 00:26:22,000
Speaker 5: a silver Dodge ram that turned a corner. I remember

534
00:26:22,000 --> 00:26:24,399
Speaker 5: saying it in the front yard. I was so excited

535
00:26:24,400 --> 00:26:27,240
Speaker 5: to do some home jumping on it down, obviously crying

536
00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 5: as soon as you got out of the truck. Happy, happy,

537
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,240
Speaker 5: and mad. I don't know how to explain it, happy

538
00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:35,480
Speaker 5: and mad at the same time. You know, I hugged

539
00:26:35,520 --> 00:26:38,320
Speaker 5: him and told him I love him, and then I

540
00:26:38,400 --> 00:26:41,280
Speaker 5: have to share because him taking that guilty plea was

541
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 5: partly my decision. He had called me when they offered

542
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:48,840
Speaker 5: him that, and he said, what do I do?

543
00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 3: Man? He said, I can.

544
00:26:51,320 --> 00:26:53,760
Speaker 5: I can come home now, but I'm gonna they're gonna

545
00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:55,000
Speaker 5: leave it on my record and they're gonna call.

546
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:56,720
Speaker 4: Me a murder or.

547
00:26:57,240 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 5: I can fight this, and I didn't do this hardly.

548
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:01,359
Speaker 5: I know I didn't do it, So I know I

549
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 5: can fight him. I could probably get some money on us.

550
00:27:04,080 --> 00:27:06,479
Speaker 5: You know, well we'll both be fighting. You know, everybody

551
00:27:06,520 --> 00:27:10,720
Speaker 5: will be fighting. Yeah, I said that, Who fucking cares

552
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:12,560
Speaker 5: if they call you a murderer?

553
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,639
Speaker 3: Are you? He said, no, Harley, it's grew it.

554
00:27:16,720 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: Man.

555
00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 5: He already gave him twenty three years. They're gonna look

556
00:27:20,680 --> 00:27:23,679
Speaker 5: for every reason they can't. I love the gamble. I

557
00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 5: already gave you twenty three years for nothing. Odds are

558
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,480
Speaker 5: clearly not in my favor. I'll go home. That affected

559
00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:31,919
Speaker 5: me for twenty three years. That affected all of his family,

560
00:27:32,240 --> 00:27:34,600
Speaker 5: my mother or asking her mom. You know, she stayed

561
00:27:34,640 --> 00:27:36,800
Speaker 5: married to him til I was about nineteen. She was

562
00:27:36,880 --> 00:27:39,040
Speaker 5: in a pretty brutal place as well. You know, it's

563
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:41,000
Speaker 5: your brother and your husband. She never called him the

564
00:27:41,040 --> 00:27:44,680
Speaker 5: dad guilty and she never defended Jerry, So it makes

565
00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:46,840
Speaker 5: me feel like she knew more, but she was just

566
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:49,639
Speaker 5: in a hard place. And it always kind of barked

567
00:27:49,640 --> 00:27:52,280
Speaker 5: me because Jerry was around her family. I almost feel

568
00:27:52,280 --> 00:27:53,840
Speaker 5: like a bad human for saying it sometimes, and I'm

569
00:27:53,880 --> 00:27:56,880
Speaker 5: glad that everything happened and happened, you know, he passed

570
00:27:56,920 --> 00:28:00,520
Speaker 5: away in prison, which is perfect in my mind. I

571
00:28:00,560 --> 00:28:02,520
Speaker 5: think I'm allowed to feel that way. But it ripped

572
00:28:02,560 --> 00:28:05,960
Speaker 5: our paint apart. But we can do this to humans

573
00:28:06,200 --> 00:28:08,679
Speaker 5: and throw them in prison and it there not be

574
00:28:08,720 --> 00:28:11,240
Speaker 5: a lot of recourse, you know, the prosecutor. I actually

575
00:28:11,280 --> 00:28:13,600
Speaker 5: learned some of the day that I didn't know this

576
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:15,719
Speaker 5: could be a problem for us. You were aware of that,

577
00:28:15,760 --> 00:28:19,840
Speaker 5: even you destroy a life. Oh well, sorry, well no,

578
00:28:19,920 --> 00:28:21,879
Speaker 5: you owe me more than that. I don't want money.

579
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:24,480
Speaker 5: You go to prison, now, you know that's what you

580
00:28:24,480 --> 00:28:26,399
Speaker 5: should too. How many other people did you do this to?

581
00:28:26,800 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 5: Was this the only one you got caught in? And

582
00:28:30,640 --> 00:28:36,639
Speaker 5: that's just one, one time era, one prosecutor in one city.

583
00:28:36,960 --> 00:28:38,960
Speaker 5: How often does this happen all over the United States,

584
00:28:39,000 --> 00:28:41,280
Speaker 5: over the world. This is the first time since conference

585
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 5: that I've been to I was shocked by how many

586
00:28:44,840 --> 00:28:47,760
Speaker 5: ANX reeves there are. I thought it was only a couple,

587
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,680
Speaker 5: you know, or like ten or fifteen, which is still

588
00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 5: that's still too many. You know, if this was an airline,

589
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:57,960
Speaker 5: statistically speaking, if this was an airline they had planes crashing,

590
00:28:58,360 --> 00:29:01,000
Speaker 5: they would shut it down and fix it immediately. There'd

591
00:29:01,040 --> 00:29:06,480
Speaker 5: be outrage everywhere. Something has to change, This has got

592
00:29:06,520 --> 00:29:07,200
Speaker 5: to be fixed.

593
00:29:09,120 --> 00:29:12,560
Speaker 1: I also want to point out that these people who

594
00:29:12,560 --> 00:29:17,280
Speaker 1: were making these decisions to reprosecute, or at least we're

595
00:29:17,280 --> 00:29:20,560
Speaker 1: threatening to reprosecute the Clay. We're more than happy to

596
00:29:20,600 --> 00:29:24,880
Speaker 1: spend countless more tax dollars on a ridiculous sham trial,

597
00:29:24,920 --> 00:29:28,640
Speaker 1: a second ridiculous sham trial, but we're somehow so protective

598
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,160
Speaker 1: of the idea that we wouldn't want to use those

599
00:29:31,200 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: same tax dollars to compensate this man.

600
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 4: It's a little more complicated for one reason, and that's

601
00:29:36,480 --> 00:29:38,080
Speaker 4: something we've kind of missed over in that it's my

602
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,400
Speaker 4: original prosecutor. See, as you've known, they have various laws

603
00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 4: for set amounts of compensation when someone's determined wrongfully convicted,

604
00:29:45,920 --> 00:29:48,760
Speaker 4: and you can't prosecute a prosecutor if they're just doing

605
00:29:48,960 --> 00:29:52,120
Speaker 4: their job within the limits of the law. But if

606
00:29:52,160 --> 00:29:55,800
Speaker 4: they violate the law, you can take that out and

607
00:29:55,840 --> 00:29:58,400
Speaker 4: sue for untold amounts. And that's what we proved. My

608
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 4: original prosecutor broke the law by withholding evidence that presenting

609
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:05,080
Speaker 4: testimony that she knew was false. So we had special earrings,

610
00:30:05,160 --> 00:30:08,080
Speaker 4: went to the bar. She was found guilty, but I

611
00:30:08,160 --> 00:30:10,800
Speaker 4: can't hand the bar protect themselves and they they have

612
00:30:10,840 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 4: her punishment, but it was considered what they call a

613
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:15,240
Speaker 4: private sense or something that they wouldn't tell.

614
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:16,200
Speaker 3: Us what they did to her.

615
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,680
Speaker 4: She still remained a current DA in another county at

616
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:20,200
Speaker 4: that time.

617
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:23,400
Speaker 1: Listen whether or not they want to put it in

618
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:27,160
Speaker 1: a legal document. I don't think there's any sane or

619
00:30:27,280 --> 00:30:31,080
Speaker 1: rational person that believes you had anything to do with

620
00:30:31,200 --> 00:30:36,200
Speaker 1: this crime. The good news is you're here. You're never

621
00:30:36,240 --> 00:30:40,520
Speaker 1: going back, and I'm glad that we're here to put

622
00:30:40,560 --> 00:30:43,200
Speaker 1: a sort of a stamp on it and tell this

623
00:30:43,320 --> 00:30:47,600
Speaker 1: story in the way that you've told it today. Okay,

624
00:30:47,680 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: and now we have a tradition it's called closing arguments.

625
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,600
Speaker 1: First of all, I think both of you again, Jason

626
00:30:54,640 --> 00:30:58,840
Speaker 1: Craig from the Innocence Project, Clay Chabeau, Dona Ree for

627
00:30:58,960 --> 00:31:02,680
Speaker 1: being here and sharing your story. And then I'm going

628
00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:06,000
Speaker 1: to turn off my microphone, kick back in my chair,

629
00:31:06,600 --> 00:31:09,760
Speaker 1: and turn it over to you guys for any final

630
00:31:10,040 --> 00:31:12,040
Speaker 1: thoughts you want to share with me and our audience.

631
00:31:12,320 --> 00:31:15,080
Speaker 1: As is also traditional, Jason, We're going to let you

632
00:31:15,600 --> 00:31:18,680
Speaker 1: go first and then have the man himself take us out.

633
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:21,160
Speaker 2: Excellent, Jason, thank you, and thank you for your team

634
00:31:21,240 --> 00:31:24,480
Speaker 2: for doing the podcast. I think it's super important to

635
00:31:24,560 --> 00:31:27,240
Speaker 2: share these stories, So I guess i'd just say this

636
00:31:27,480 --> 00:31:30,240
Speaker 2: when I see Clay, or particularly when I'm here at

637
00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:33,480
Speaker 2: these annual conferences and see hundreds of people who have

638
00:31:34,120 --> 00:31:38,960
Speaker 2: overcome similar challenges, I'm reminded by some of the people

639
00:31:38,960 --> 00:31:41,600
Speaker 2: who didn't have the same strength to get to the end,

640
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,880
Speaker 2: or didn't have the same time because their life just

641
00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:47,920
Speaker 2: ended in prison or gave up. Had Clay not had

642
00:31:47,920 --> 00:31:50,600
Speaker 2: the fortitude to keep fighting, to write the next letter,

643
00:31:51,000 --> 00:31:54,200
Speaker 2: to just say no, I'm not going to stop right now,

644
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 2: so Clay, just like everyone who's here at this conference,

645
00:32:00,200 --> 00:32:02,440
Speaker 2: they're the strongest people.

646
00:32:03,960 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: Who we know.

647
00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:08,959
Speaker 2: If Clay couldn't keep going, if Clay couldn't figure out

648
00:32:09,000 --> 00:32:11,800
Speaker 2: how to live the next day in prison, just like

649
00:32:11,840 --> 00:32:14,360
Speaker 2: everyone who's here at the conference now, had they not

650
00:32:14,520 --> 00:32:17,080
Speaker 2: had the fortitude to keep going, we wouldn't know their story,

651
00:32:17,120 --> 00:32:19,200
Speaker 2: we wouldn't be able to tell their story. And so

652
00:32:19,320 --> 00:32:21,400
Speaker 2: I guess the closing thought that I wanted to see is,

653
00:32:21,440 --> 00:32:23,920
Speaker 2: you know, when I see Clay sitting here, I see

654
00:32:23,960 --> 00:32:26,880
Speaker 2: the hundreds or thousands of additional people who some of

655
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:28,800
Speaker 2: us know them very well because we worked on their

656
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:30,920
Speaker 2: cases and we could never get them to the innocent

657
00:32:31,080 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: finish line. They still are in prison or tragically they

658
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:35,760
Speaker 2: died in prison.

659
00:32:36,000 --> 00:32:37,080
Speaker 3: And I think that.

660
00:32:37,280 --> 00:32:44,440
Speaker 2: Seeing Clay here everyone else here is absolutely wonderful and energizing,

661
00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:48,040
Speaker 2: and it's a reminder of the additional work we can

662
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,719
Speaker 2: do and some of the work that we can't do

663
00:32:50,760 --> 00:32:53,760
Speaker 2: because those cases will never be identified. We'll just never

664
00:32:53,840 --> 00:32:58,520
Speaker 2: know about thousands of people who have the same tragedy,

665
00:32:58,720 --> 00:32:59,920
Speaker 2: but we won't know their names.

666
00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:01,520
Speaker 3: Mine would be.

667
00:33:03,920 --> 00:33:07,560
Speaker 4: For the public society people to wake up and recognize that,

668
00:33:07,640 --> 00:33:09,680
Speaker 4: you know, they have the power to assess the evidence

669
00:33:09,720 --> 00:33:11,840
Speaker 4: as it's presented to them, not just accept what the

670
00:33:11,920 --> 00:33:15,360
Speaker 4: prosecutors tell them. And just keep this in mind because

671
00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:17,680
Speaker 4: these things, at least they're coming more to like because

672
00:33:17,680 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 4: of scientific DNA evidence has made it conclusive, fully proven,

673
00:33:20,840 --> 00:33:23,440
Speaker 4: But just remember this, it could be your brother, your sister,

674
00:33:23,520 --> 00:33:26,320
Speaker 4: your mother, your father. That's on that stand next time

675
00:33:26,360 --> 00:33:28,360
Speaker 4: being accused. You know, if you think you just walk

676
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,040
Speaker 4: in there and you want to go home, you don't

677
00:33:30,080 --> 00:33:33,400
Speaker 4: really want to delve into it, just remember, let's could

678
00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:34,040
Speaker 4: be you next time.

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Speaker 1: Thank you for listening to Wrongful Conviction. I'd like to

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00:33:43,720 --> 00:33:47,440
Speaker 1: thank our production team Connor Hall, Jeff Cliburn, and Kevin Wardis,

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00:33:47,560 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: with research by Lyla Robinson. The music in this production

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Speaker 1: was supplied by three time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph.

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Speaker 1: Be sure to follow us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction,

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Speaker 1: on Facebook at Wrongful Conviction podcast, and on Twitter at

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Speaker 1: wrong Conviction, as well as at Lava for Good. On

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Speaker 1: all three platforms, you can also follow me on both

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00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: TikTok and Instagram at It's Jason flam Ravel. Conviction is

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00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:15,000
Speaker 1: the production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with

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Speaker 1: Signal Company Number one