WEBVTT - S1: Ep 5 - Particular Friendship 0:00:02.600 --> 0:00:04.120 Before we start, I want to let you know that 0:00:04.160 --> 0:00:07.640 in this episode we discuss the topic of sexual abuse. Listener, 0:00:07.640 --> 0:00:08.760 discretion is advised. 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:25.759 I really wanted that life that Jesus had of really 0:00:25.840 --> 0:00:30.200 living poverty, chastity, obedience, service. 0:00:30.440 --> 0:00:37.680 Velut vows of poverty chastity obedience, and the missionaries of 0:00:37.800 --> 0:00:42.800 charity have a fourth vowl, wholehearted and free service to 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:44.040 the poorest of the poor. 0:00:47.280 --> 0:00:51.960 Mother Teresa was very concerned about the vow of chastity, 0:00:52.600 --> 0:00:56.640 almost to the point of paranoia. You're never supposed to 0:00:56.640 --> 0:01:02.440 get too close to one sister. You were married to 0:01:02.480 --> 0:01:06.520 the crucified Christ. There was so much fear around anything 0:01:06.600 --> 0:01:08.280 connected with human connection. 0:01:08.720 --> 0:01:12.840 How mistress of Earth, how heavenly queen, how virgin of virgins, 0:01:12.880 --> 0:01:14.120 all chaste and serene. 0:01:16.319 --> 0:01:18.600 You know, there are some very decent sisters here, and 0:01:18.840 --> 0:01:23.000 you're the best. There were regulations against what was termed 0:01:23.120 --> 0:01:29.080 particular friendship, and I didn't really catch the subtext at 0:01:29.120 --> 0:01:31.080 the time. She says, you want to get to know 0:01:31.240 --> 0:01:38.120 me better, and she's asking about my family. You're going 0:01:38.200 --> 0:01:43.360 to give up intimate relationships by a vow of chastity, Yesterdy, 0:01:46.160 --> 0:01:49.400 you must not have any particular friendships. 0:01:53.760 --> 0:01:57.400 For Coco Punch and iHeartRadio. This is the Turning America 0:01:57.480 --> 0:02:01.680 Lands Part five particular friendship. 0:02:16.320 --> 0:02:18.639 So I've just gotten into camp. 0:02:20.720 --> 0:02:24.120 And I'm heading to I'm not really sure where, because 0:02:25.080 --> 0:02:28.200 I've spoken to a couple of the sisters on the 0:02:28.280 --> 0:02:33.800 phone and they have the ridiculously vague about where I 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:34.560 could find them. 0:02:36.000 --> 0:02:38.800 Chelby such Dave as a reporter in western India. We 0:02:38.919 --> 0:02:40.440 hired her to find a woman who used to be 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:42.560 a missionary of charity and is still a sister, but 0:02:42.600 --> 0:02:45.919 with a different organization. This woman were trying to find. 0:02:46.080 --> 0:02:48.240 I called the house where she lived several times before 0:02:48.280 --> 0:02:50.560 I got her on the phone, but once I started 0:02:50.560 --> 0:02:54.560 to explain why I was calling, she quickly ended the conversation. Now, 0:02:54.600 --> 0:02:56.320 the other sisters in her group don't want to tell 0:02:56.360 --> 0:02:58.400 us anything, even where they're located. 0:02:58.880 --> 0:03:00.800 They won't tell me where I can reach up. They 0:03:00.840 --> 0:03:03.160 won't tell me where I can find her or when. 0:03:03.880 --> 0:03:07.520 They won't give me the address of their residents and 0:03:07.880 --> 0:03:08.959 where their order works. 0:03:08.960 --> 0:03:13.000 Out of the woman Chavi's trying to find is Niobi, 0:03:13.800 --> 0:03:16.880 the bold nun transferred to Mary Johnson's convent in Rome. 0:03:17.760 --> 0:03:19.760 The nun who told Mary I love you. 0:03:20.600 --> 0:03:24.119 I've got two envelopes with me. There are two versions 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:25.480 of the letter. 0:03:26.480 --> 0:03:29.120 She has two drafts of a letter for Niobi in 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:32.080 case Chavy can't actually talk to her. One of them's 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:34.520 intentionally vague if we have to hand it to someone 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.120 other than Niobi who might read it. 0:03:36.600 --> 0:03:44.080 The second letter is more explicit in the allegations and 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:48.440 that I have put in an envelope that's a strictly 0:03:48.480 --> 0:03:49.520 confidential letter. 0:03:56.840 --> 0:03:59.880 This woman were trying to reach Niobi. She first entered 0:03:59.880 --> 0:04:01.920 Mery Johnson's life in nineteen eighty seven. 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:06.760 She walked in with his presence that was so unlike 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:09.880 what most of the missionaries of charity had, and so 0:04:09.920 --> 0:04:10.840 she caught my attention. 0:04:11.640 --> 0:04:14.560 Mary was twenty nine years old, Niobi was thirty nine. 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:18.240 Niobi's not her real name, by the way. At this point, 0:04:18.279 --> 0:04:21.080 Mary had been with the EMCs for a decade, and 0:04:21.200 --> 0:04:23.640 for all those years, she'd been doing everything she could 0:04:23.640 --> 0:04:26.760 to center her life on love. Love was the point. 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:28.880 It's why she joined the MCS in the first place. 0:04:29.520 --> 0:04:31.800 It's what she believed people needed most. 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:35.080 And I think maybe because I had felt excluded in 0:04:35.120 --> 0:04:38.120 many of the different places I was and while my 0:04:38.200 --> 0:04:40.960 family was a very loving family. When I was growing up, 0:04:41.080 --> 0:04:43.080 there wasn't a lot of like I love you. There 0:04:43.160 --> 0:04:46.240 was doing things together, there was doing things for each other. 0:04:47.400 --> 0:04:50.960 I had that kind of like whole, a little bit 0:04:51.200 --> 0:04:54.120 like many many people do. I think, you know, we 0:04:54.160 --> 0:04:56.880 all longed to be loved, to be appreciated, to be seen, 0:04:58.000 --> 0:04:59.760 and not just for the things that we can do, 0:04:59.800 --> 0:05:00.760 but for who we are. 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:05.360 Then one day, while Mary hung her clothes to dry, 0:05:05.920 --> 0:05:09.800 Naobi whispered in her ear, sister, Donata, I love you. 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:14.160 The clothespin fell for Mary's hand. 0:05:15.160 --> 0:05:18.400 Does she mean like I love you the way I'm 0:05:18.400 --> 0:05:22.159 supposed to love all the sisters Jesus said, love one 0:05:22.240 --> 0:05:24.880 another as I have loved you. No, I don't think 0:05:24.920 --> 0:05:27.520 that's what she means. She's looking at me with this 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:31.359 big smile in her eyes. She's waiting for an answer. 0:05:31.520 --> 0:05:35.760 She's what she do I And she picks up the 0:05:35.800 --> 0:05:38.560 clothespin that I dropped, and her arm brushes my arm, 0:05:38.600 --> 0:05:41.200 and I feel like this electric shock kind of thing 0:05:41.279 --> 0:05:46.919 going through me. And she goes away, and I'm looking 0:05:47.200 --> 0:05:50.160 all day long at the big blue sky and listening 0:05:50.200 --> 0:05:53.159 to the sounds of the birds, and everything feels. 0:05:52.920 --> 0:05:56.719 Like No, so you were happy. 0:05:57.160 --> 0:05:58.040 I was happy. 0:05:58.200 --> 0:06:03.080 I was confused. I was happy. I was But you know, 0:06:03.320 --> 0:06:06.360 what do you do the first time somebody says I 0:06:06.440 --> 0:06:11.719 love you in a way that sounds romantic and meaningful 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:17.719 and personal. Hell, that felt good. 0:06:21.920 --> 0:06:25.520 One afternoon, the sisters were drinking tea, and Iobi slyly 0:06:25.600 --> 0:06:28.440 leaned over and told a joke in Mary's ear. When 0:06:28.440 --> 0:06:30.720 they all stood up to pray, the Superior gave Mary 0:06:30.800 --> 0:06:34.520 a weird look. Now the Superior wasn't just any mc 0:06:35.200 --> 0:06:38.279 Her name was Sister Joseph Michael. She was highly ranked 0:06:38.279 --> 0:06:41.640 in the order and pretty tight with Mother Teresa. In fact, 0:06:41.760 --> 0:06:45.200 Mother Teresa reportedly saw Sister Joseph Michael as a possible 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:49.480 replacement for her one day. Now, Mary started to worry. 0:06:50.000 --> 0:06:54.960 Had the Superior seen something between her and Iobi. Later 0:06:55.040 --> 0:06:58.080 that afternoon, Sister Joseph Michael called Mary to her office. 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:04.400 She told her to close the door and started pacing. Finally, 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:08.400 Sister Joseph Michael spoke slowly and tentatively. She said she 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:14.400 had a special job for Mary. Revised the constitutions, the 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:18.040 mission and guidelines of the Missionaries of Charity, Mother Teresa's 0:07:18.040 --> 0:07:19.600 path to holiness. 0:07:19.600 --> 0:07:24.640 And I was so totally floored, because we are always 0:07:24.640 --> 0:07:27.960 told that the constitutions are the voice of God. Mother 0:07:28.040 --> 0:07:31.400 Teresa had written the constitutions that the story goes on 0:07:31.440 --> 0:07:34.640 her knees by candlelight, after all the other sisters had 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:35.520 gone to sleep. 0:07:35.880 --> 0:07:38.880 Mary's job was to update the constitutions to reflect current 0:07:38.920 --> 0:07:42.400 canon law. Canon law is basically the Catholic Church's internal 0:07:42.480 --> 0:07:46.200 legal system. When a new code of canon law is issued, 0:07:46.600 --> 0:07:49.320 Catholic orders review and update their own sets of guidelines. 0:07:50.080 --> 0:07:52.640 Mary was updating the MC guidelines after Pope John Paul 0:07:52.640 --> 0:07:55.720 the Second made revisions in the nineteen eighties. These canon 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:59.000 law updates don't happen very often. Pope Francis just released 0:07:59.080 --> 0:08:01.920 new canon Law Revision twenty twenty one, and those were 0:08:01.960 --> 0:08:06.240 the first in nearly four decades. Every day Mary wheeled 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:08.640 a portable typewriter out into the garden and worked her 0:08:08.640 --> 0:08:11.600 way through the constitutions. A new word here, a new 0:08:11.600 --> 0:08:15.400 paragraph there. She couldn't make big changes, but editing changed her. 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:19.160 Maybe this rule book was as human as it was divine. 0:08:19.240 --> 0:08:21.800 If Mary could change the wording of the rules, maybe 0:08:21.800 --> 0:08:25.000 she could tweak them in her own life too. This 0:08:25.160 --> 0:08:29.560 was the backdrop of Mary's relationship with Niobe. While Mary typed, 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:32.400 Niobi would peek her head into the garden and say, 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:35.400 have a good day. Sometimes she winked. 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:41.120 And when I was with Niobi, I finally felt myself 0:08:41.559 --> 0:08:47.200 as lovable and loved. This kind of thing I was 0:08:47.240 --> 0:08:49.360 trying to do for everybody else all the time, to 0:08:49.400 --> 0:08:52.160 make them feel seen. This was the center of what 0:08:52.240 --> 0:08:55.560 I was supposed to be doing, and for the first 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:57.679 time I was feeling it for myself. 0:08:59.440 --> 0:09:02.439 In the week's followed, Mary talked to God about her predicament. 0:09:03.200 --> 0:09:05.920 She also thanked God because Naobi felt like a gift. 0:09:06.480 --> 0:09:10.920 How can this not be from God? If it's making 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:14.640 me feel how God wants us to feel. God wants 0:09:14.679 --> 0:09:17.240 us to feel loved, How could that not be from God. 0:09:19.320 --> 0:09:22.680 As time passed, Naobi got older, she dropped the sister 0:09:22.960 --> 0:09:24.679 and just started calling Mary Donata. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.240 She's not saying, sister, donat to the way we were 0:09:27.240 --> 0:09:29.960 always supposed to do, so just dropping that sister was 0:09:30.000 --> 0:09:30.960 so intimate. 0:09:31.440 --> 0:09:33.920 She'd brush past Mary in the hall, touch her foot 0:09:33.960 --> 0:09:38.680 under the table. This made Mary nervous, really nervous. There 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:42.120 was no privacy in the convent. Everyone knew everyone's business. 0:09:42.679 --> 0:09:45.600 But Naobi didn't stop, and Mary didn't stop her. 0:09:46.080 --> 0:09:48.760 We would bow down and touch our heads to the 0:09:48.800 --> 0:09:52.400 floor of the chapel. It was a tradition that was 0:09:52.440 --> 0:09:58.000 adopted from India, and it was really bad because sometimes 0:09:58.160 --> 0:10:01.840 she would get right behind me and she would grab 0:10:01.920 --> 0:10:05.840 hold of my feet when she'd bow down, and again, 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:08.000 it felt kind of delicious, and at the same time, 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:11.480 if anybody saw that, that would be a horrible It 0:10:11.520 --> 0:10:17.400 could be awful because I had been having this crisis 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.120 of conscience because even though her love felt so good 0:10:20.120 --> 0:10:21.960 and it felt so much like God, and part of 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.559 me believed it was a gift from God, another part 0:10:24.559 --> 0:10:26.719 of me knew it was wrong and that I shouldn't 0:10:27.240 --> 0:10:29.800 be having any sort of special relationship with her sister. 0:10:29.960 --> 0:10:33.400 What we were sharing was dangerous and against my vows, 0:10:34.120 --> 0:10:36.800 and I had actually determined that I was going to 0:10:36.880 --> 0:10:37.640 tell her that. 0:10:42.840 --> 0:10:45.920 But she didn't have the chance. Sister Niobi came with 0:10:45.960 --> 0:10:50.560 her own news. Niobi had been instructed not to tell anyone, 0:10:50.720 --> 0:10:54.280 but she was being transferred that same day. She had 0:10:54.280 --> 0:10:55.600 a new assignment in Napoli. 0:10:58.920 --> 0:10:59.360 I was so. 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:02.560 Relieved because I had been It kind of like solved 0:11:02.600 --> 0:11:05.160 my problem, even though I knew I was going to 0:11:05.240 --> 0:11:08.880 miss her, and all of these different things whirling through 0:11:08.920 --> 0:11:11.640 my head at once. And she comes close to me 0:11:11.679 --> 0:11:15.440 and she says, never forget our secret, never forget that 0:11:15.520 --> 0:11:19.160 I love you, And I told her I love you too, 0:11:20.440 --> 0:11:24.080 the last words I said to her before she left. 0:11:29.040 --> 0:11:32.839 Mary finished updating the constitutions, but now she creped something. 0:11:32.880 --> 0:11:36.959 Those rules didn't allow something small, even just a hand 0:11:37.000 --> 0:11:37.360 on her. 0:11:37.320 --> 0:11:40.400 Arm, you know, even like the sign of peace at mass, 0:11:40.400 --> 0:11:43.360 where people would normally shake hands, we do that kind 0:11:43.440 --> 0:11:45.600 of nama stay sort of thing where you join your 0:11:45.600 --> 0:11:47.720 hands in front of your chest and bow to each other. 0:11:48.640 --> 0:11:52.280 So really nothing, nothing as far as touch goes. 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:55.640 One day, a van from Napoli showed up at the 0:11:55.640 --> 0:11:58.480 convent with supplies, and when Mary went to greet it, 0:11:58.679 --> 0:12:02.760 Naobi was there unpacking the boxes. Mary was thrilled. She 0:12:02.840 --> 0:12:04.600 asked Naobi to come inside with her. 0:12:04.640 --> 0:12:06.920 And I said, you know, I've been thinking about something 0:12:07.000 --> 0:12:09.800 and I want to ask you something, and she says sure, 0:12:10.000 --> 0:12:13.440 ask I said, will you hold me? She says hold you? 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:16.440 I said, yeah, just put your arms around me for 0:12:16.480 --> 0:12:19.199 a minute, and she kind of looks at the windows 0:12:19.240 --> 0:12:21.839 and I maneuver us into a place where nobody will 0:12:21.840 --> 0:12:25.120 see us and close a couple blinds. And then she 0:12:25.160 --> 0:12:28.360 puts her arms around me, and it feels so good. 0:12:29.200 --> 0:12:32.760 And she leans over and she kisses the top of 0:12:32.800 --> 0:12:42.280 my sorry covered head. I could hear her heart beating, 0:12:42.360 --> 0:12:46.319 I could feel her arms around me. It is like 0:12:47.360 --> 0:12:51.480 everything inside me is melting. She held me just a 0:12:51.520 --> 0:12:55.120 second more and then she went away. 0:12:58.160 --> 0:13:04.720 Naobi got back in the van and left. It would 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.760 be three years before Mary saw her again. 0:13:26.679 --> 0:13:29.280 So, like most of you, I used to be a nun, 0:13:32.920 --> 0:13:35.400 very relatable. That's very relatable and stand up comedy to 0:13:35.400 --> 0:13:36.839 get up and start to talk about how you used 0:13:36.840 --> 0:13:38.959 to be a nun And I used to be ann 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:40.160 with the outfit and everything. 0:13:40.880 --> 0:13:42.880 Kelly Dunham followed her calling all the way from the 0:13:42.920 --> 0:13:44.680 missionaries of charity to the stage. 0:13:45.160 --> 0:13:50.240 So the first question is, oh like the sound of music. No, 0:13:50.440 --> 0:13:53.080 there were less children in matching outfits and less Nazis 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:53.840 in my story. 0:13:54.760 --> 0:13:57.960 Kelly lives in Brooklyn. She lasted about two years as 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:00.840 a sister with the MCS. To use her words, she 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.679 flunked out. She had the hardest time with the valve 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:06.800 of chastity, not the sex part. That wasn't it. It 0:14:06.880 --> 0:14:08.800 was the way the emces took the vow so far, 0:14:09.360 --> 0:14:13.600 avoiding all friendship. Initially, the Order sounded like a fantasy 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:18.559 women working together toward a common goal of caring for others. Instead, 0:14:18.720 --> 0:14:21.640 Kelly says she would be asked to leave her humanity behind, 0:14:22.480 --> 0:14:24.280 but it definitely makes for good material. 0:14:24.880 --> 0:14:27.280 One time we got up in the morning and Sister 0:14:27.360 --> 0:14:31.920 Melager told us that if we really loved Jesus, we 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:35.520 would mortify ourselves by going to the bathroom only once 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:41.160 a day. Now I thought she was kidding, so I 0:14:41.240 --> 0:14:43.880 laughed and said, okay, just call me Sister Mary bladder infection. 0:14:50.040 --> 0:14:53.400 She didn't think that was funny. 0:14:53.600 --> 0:14:56.840 Kelly joined the Order for idealistic reasons, but when she 0:14:56.840 --> 0:14:58.800 looks back, she knows she was a little different from 0:14:58.800 --> 0:15:02.160 the stereotypical MC. First off, she didn't grow up Catholic. 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:04.200 She was raised as an evangelical Christian. 0:15:04.680 --> 0:15:06.760 I'm also, you know, like a very queer person. Even 0:15:06.760 --> 0:15:08.200 though I did not know it then, I just knew 0:15:08.240 --> 0:15:09.440 I didn't fit in very well. 0:15:10.040 --> 0:15:12.160 She first got involved with the Missionaries of Charity in 0:15:12.240 --> 0:15:16.520 nineteen ninety as a volunteer in Haiti. Most aid organizations 0:15:16.560 --> 0:15:19.440 in Haiti frustrated her. They didn't seem to give Haitian 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:22.840 people a voice. But as she saw the MCEs listened 0:15:22.880 --> 0:15:25.520 to what locals had to say. She loved how the 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.480 Sisters looked in their sories, how they worked so hard, 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:29.680 how strong they were. 0:15:30.080 --> 0:15:32.280 By that spring, I was in love not with like 0:15:32.560 --> 0:15:34.480 one sister, but like with all of them. 0:15:35.640 --> 0:15:38.320 Before she could join the MCS, she had to convert 0:15:38.320 --> 0:15:39.120 to Catholicism. 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.600 As it turns out, they kind of insist on that thing. 0:15:43.560 --> 0:15:46.400 While Kelly was becoming a Catholic, she volunteered with the 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.600 Sisters in Miami, and eventually she got wored. The MCS 0:15:49.640 --> 0:15:52.600 had accepted her she would start her training in New York. 0:15:53.360 --> 0:15:55.440 So the Sisters in Miami had her over for Tea 0:15:55.520 --> 0:15:56.880 to say goodbye. 0:15:56.720 --> 0:15:59.560 And they made me this card. You know. I opened 0:15:59.560 --> 0:16:01.480 it up and it was like, welcome to your beautiful 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:04.960 vocation and it said something like you know, your love 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:08.200 of Christ must destroy you completely. And then it had 0:16:08.240 --> 0:16:11.240 like little pictures, little like red drops off the words, 0:16:11.240 --> 0:16:13.600 and they're like, oh, it's the blood of Jesus, Like wow, 0:16:13.680 --> 0:16:14.840 this is so gruesome. 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:19.000 Your love of Christ must destroy you completely. One of 0:16:19.040 --> 0:16:20.880 the professed Sisters pulled Kelly aside. 0:16:21.440 --> 0:16:25.280 She said, if at some point you feel like they're 0:16:25.320 --> 0:16:28.200 really breaking your head, then you just leave, just run, 0:16:28.280 --> 0:16:28.760 and just go. 0:16:31.160 --> 0:16:33.720 There's one story from the convent that really sticks out 0:16:33.720 --> 0:16:36.640 to Kelly. It's on her mistress told over and over 0:16:36.720 --> 0:16:40.840 again as this inspirational tale. A superior walks into a 0:16:40.920 --> 0:16:44.240 chapel of praying sisters and instead of saying anything, she 0:16:44.280 --> 0:16:46.240 writes a message on a chalkboard. 0:16:46.240 --> 0:16:49.960 Please pray for the father of sister Mary whoever, he's 0:16:50.080 --> 0:16:52.240 very ill. And then that's how she found out that 0:16:52.240 --> 0:16:55.960 her father was sick. And then fifteen minutes later, the 0:16:57.200 --> 0:17:00.600 superior came in wipe that off the black board and wrote, 0:17:00.760 --> 0:17:03.320 please pray for the father of sister whoever. 0:17:04.000 --> 0:17:04.320 Rip. 0:17:05.560 --> 0:17:07.360 So that's how she found out how her father. 0:17:07.280 --> 0:17:11.440 Died, and the superior didn't say anything else the end. 0:17:11.840 --> 0:17:16.040 That's the story that just seems needlessly cruel. And she 0:17:16.119 --> 0:17:19.120 said that sister just really trusted Jesus and really trusted 0:17:19.119 --> 0:17:22.760 her superior that much like those are the stories you 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:27.440 hear when somebody wants to tell you an inspirational story. 0:17:27.680 --> 0:17:30.879 You know that's a wacko for a inspirational story. 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:35.200 And another story from her mistress. A sister finds out 0:17:35.200 --> 0:17:37.800 her entire family was killed in the Rwandan Civil War. 0:17:39.119 --> 0:17:41.879 After a few tears, she never mentions it again. 0:17:42.040 --> 0:17:44.360 And that has held out this kind of the gold standard, 0:17:44.400 --> 0:17:46.679 that she trusted Jesus so much that she never had 0:17:46.720 --> 0:17:49.800 an emotional expression about it after that. But I think 0:17:49.840 --> 0:17:52.680 the mission is a charity. Like your feelings were just 0:17:52.680 --> 0:17:55.360 supposed to be irrelevant and we're not giving you information. 0:17:55.440 --> 0:17:57.320 There were just things that you pray to get rid of. 0:17:58.240 --> 0:18:01.280 But people have feelings, and the feeling is actually our information, 0:18:02.119 --> 0:18:08.240 and it's just so not compatible with the way humans are. 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:12.560 I'm really good with kids. It's one of my strengths. 0:18:13.080 --> 0:18:16.040 This is Mary Anderson, not to be confused with Mary Johnson. 0:18:16.359 --> 0:18:19.000 There are a lot of Mary's in this story. Like 0:18:19.040 --> 0:18:21.280 the other Mary, this one worked with kids as part 0:18:21.280 --> 0:18:22.200 of her service. 0:18:21.880 --> 0:18:24.760 Work, and I love them and I connect it with them, 0:18:24.800 --> 0:18:25.920 and I would play with them. 0:18:26.480 --> 0:18:28.720 And she skipped with them, and I was. 0:18:28.720 --> 0:18:31.920 Told that that was wrong. I wasn't conducting myself as 0:18:31.960 --> 0:18:35.800 a proper nun. And surely Marry the Mother of God 0:18:35.920 --> 0:18:41.680 never skipped, And I remember thinking that's rubbish, like skipping 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:45.080 is joyful and why should I be, you know, having 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:49.080 to do penance like kidding ourselves or kneeling on hard 0:18:49.119 --> 0:18:53.679 floors or you know, because I was skipping and I 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:57.480 was just so torn up by those things, and yet 0:18:58.000 --> 0:19:01.320 to be constantly told that, well, you have to not 0:19:01.640 --> 0:19:04.720 trust what you think and field you have to think 0:19:04.760 --> 0:19:07.800 the way we do and what you think is wrong 0:19:07.960 --> 0:19:11.040 and you know, and so I was getting the message 0:19:11.160 --> 0:19:15.400 over and over you cannot trust what you think. Your 0:19:15.520 --> 0:19:18.840 thoughts are not very good because they're not right, you know. 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.960 Not every former MC sister sees detachment as a bad thing. 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.720 Joan Worster says, it's incredibly valuable. 0:19:29.119 --> 0:19:32.040 I think I got a great relationship with God through 0:19:32.080 --> 0:19:34.800 all of this. Even though there was some suffering involved, 0:19:35.359 --> 0:19:39.080 I feel like it was the best experience of my life. 0:19:39.600 --> 0:19:43.600 The main thing was not having anything. That was tremendous 0:19:43.600 --> 0:19:47.840 for me because I have no attachment to anything at 0:19:47.840 --> 0:19:49.960 this point in my life. It taught me so much 0:19:50.520 --> 0:19:56.800 for detachment, even from objects, from objects, from people. I 0:19:56.840 --> 0:19:58.840 always say this to people, and I think it's hard 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:02.560 for people to understand this. I say, I love people, 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:05.200 I love my husband, i love my children, but I'm 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:10.680 not attached. My life journey is my attachment to God totally. 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:15.639 So while I appreciate and love, I'm just not attached, 0:20:16.840 --> 0:20:17.280 if that. 0:20:17.200 --> 0:20:21.200 Makes sense, I think. So that's such an interesting concept 0:20:21.240 --> 0:20:26.280 for me, and I think I'm probably pretty attached. 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.199 But I can love. The thing about love for me 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:32.879 is I can love so much more because I'm not attached. 0:20:33.280 --> 0:20:35.840 If I have my husband for as long as I 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:39.200 have him, if he were to die, my life would 0:20:39.200 --> 0:20:42.119 not change. It would change in what I would have 0:20:42.160 --> 0:20:45.399 to deal with, you know, depression or sadness, but it 0:20:45.440 --> 0:20:48.639 wouldn't change my love for him, you know what I'm saying. So, 0:20:48.640 --> 0:20:51.119 so that way, it's kind of like a for me, 0:20:51.200 --> 0:20:54.120 it's a release of life, but I get to live 0:20:54.160 --> 0:20:55.600 the life. 0:20:55.760 --> 0:21:01.320 It sounds peaceful, it is. Any former sisters we spoke 0:21:01.359 --> 0:21:05.560 to think this forced detachment is crippling. They say it's 0:21:05.560 --> 0:21:08.200 a contradiction to be asked to love and help others 0:21:08.680 --> 0:21:12.080 and also remain emotionally distant. They struggled with this rule 0:21:12.119 --> 0:21:15.960 against friendship or what's called particular friendship. 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:18.960 Which is like kind of the euphemism for like none 0:21:18.960 --> 0:21:21.760 on non action. But even when people had kind of 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.240 platonic friendships, they'd often send people away because they just 0:21:25.240 --> 0:21:27.160 didn't want people to be connected to each other. 0:21:27.720 --> 0:21:31.760 Kelly says MC's weren't just worried about particular friendships. Appearance 0:21:31.760 --> 0:21:33.560 and demeanor were also scrutinized. 0:21:33.800 --> 0:21:36.000 They have a lot of talk about like how our 0:21:36.119 --> 0:21:38.080 lady was very feminine. 0:21:37.520 --> 0:21:37.720 You know. 0:21:38.040 --> 0:21:40.200 They say, like, oh, our lady, she was a real lady, 0:21:40.400 --> 0:21:41.080 you know whatever. 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:44.800 As sisters in Kelly's training class progressed to the next level, 0:21:45.240 --> 0:21:46.680 Kelly says she was held back. 0:21:47.600 --> 0:21:50.040 The specific problem that they said that I had was 0:21:50.080 --> 0:21:53.440 that I had too much self esteem and insufficient docility. 0:21:53.920 --> 0:21:56.479 Even when I managed to say the right things, they 0:21:56.480 --> 0:21:59.200 would say that my body language was like I walked 0:21:59.240 --> 0:22:02.639 like my shoulders were angry as how they said it, which, 0:22:02.680 --> 0:22:03.879 you know, I think that could mean a lot of 0:22:03.920 --> 0:22:07.159 things too, What do you mean by that? Like I 0:22:07.200 --> 0:22:09.639 remember one time she lent me her prayer book and 0:22:09.680 --> 0:22:11.320 it had a little list of the things she was 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.840 praying about, and one of them was me, And she 0:22:13.880 --> 0:22:16.480 said that I was scary, and I was like, nobody 0:22:16.480 --> 0:22:18.480 in my life has ever called me scary, But I 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:20.880 think that there was something about me that was maybe 0:22:20.920 --> 0:22:23.439 threatening to her. Maybe it was about sexuality. I don't know. 0:22:26.680 --> 0:22:29.120 All Kelly knew for sure was that she was stressed, 0:22:30.080 --> 0:22:32.520 so stressed that she says she got her period for 0:22:32.640 --> 0:22:34.240 four months straight. 0:22:34.280 --> 0:22:36.199 Which I think was my body's way of being like 0:22:36.280 --> 0:22:39.159 get out, get out, you know. And we used like 0:22:39.320 --> 0:22:43.040 non disposable menstrual stuff, right like really, they just handed 0:22:43.119 --> 0:22:45.679 us diapers, you know, like the cloth diapers that we 0:22:45.720 --> 0:22:47.480 folded up and then we had to wash them by hand. 0:22:47.880 --> 0:22:51.439 And so one day we were cleaning the women's shelter 0:22:51.640 --> 0:22:55.680 in Harlem and there was a tampon sitting on top 0:22:55.720 --> 0:22:57.600 of one of the dressers and I was like, I'm 0:22:57.600 --> 0:22:59.639 gonna borrow that, and then I put it in my 0:22:59.680 --> 0:23:01.320 pocket and then I was walking away. I was like, 0:23:01.440 --> 0:23:03.280 I'm not gonna borrow and I'm not giving it back. 0:23:03.840 --> 0:23:05.720 And that was kind of the moment where I was like, 0:23:05.760 --> 0:23:08.960 you know, this is not making me a better person, 0:23:09.800 --> 0:23:12.159 Like I don't know who I am. Maybe you know, 0:23:12.280 --> 0:23:13.879 but I know who I don't want to be, and 0:23:13.920 --> 0:23:16.640 that's a person who steals a tampon from a homeless woman. 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:19.720 And I don't think I've ever been as stressed as 0:23:19.760 --> 0:23:21.040 I was in that situation. 0:23:22.960 --> 0:23:25.359