1 00:00:02,600 --> 00:00:04,120 Speaker 1: Before we start, I want to let you know that 2 00:00:04,160 --> 00:00:07,640 Speaker 1: in this episode we discuss the topic of sexual abuse. Listener, 3 00:00:07,640 --> 00:00:08,760 Speaker 1: discretion is advised. 4 00:00:21,200 --> 00:00:25,759 Speaker 2: I really wanted that life that Jesus had of really 5 00:00:25,840 --> 00:00:30,200 Speaker 2: living poverty, chastity, obedience, service. 6 00:00:30,440 --> 00:00:37,680 Speaker 3: Velut vows of poverty chastity obedience, and the missionaries of 7 00:00:37,800 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 3: charity have a fourth vowl, wholehearted and free service to 8 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 3: the poorest of the poor. 9 00:00:47,280 --> 00:00:51,960 Speaker 2: Mother Teresa was very concerned about the vow of chastity, 10 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:56,640 Speaker 2: almost to the point of paranoia. You're never supposed to 11 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:02,440 Speaker 2: get too close to one sister. You were married to 12 00:01:02,480 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 2: the crucified Christ. There was so much fear around anything 13 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:08,280 Speaker 2: connected with human connection. 14 00:01:08,720 --> 00:01:12,840 Speaker 3: How mistress of Earth, how heavenly queen, how virgin of virgins, 15 00:01:12,880 --> 00:01:14,120 Speaker 3: all chaste and serene. 16 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:18,600 Speaker 2: You know, there are some very decent sisters here, and 17 00:01:18,840 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 2: you're the best. There were regulations against what was termed 18 00:01:23,120 --> 00:01:29,080 Speaker 2: particular friendship, and I didn't really catch the subtext at 19 00:01:29,120 --> 00:01:31,080 Speaker 2: the time. She says, you want to get to know 20 00:01:31,240 --> 00:01:38,120 Speaker 2: me better, and she's asking about my family. You're going 21 00:01:38,200 --> 00:01:43,360 Speaker 2: to give up intimate relationships by a vow of chastity, Yesterdy, 22 00:01:46,160 --> 00:01:49,400 Speaker 2: you must not have any particular friendships. 23 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:57,400 Speaker 1: For Coco Punch and iHeartRadio. This is the Turning America 24 00:01:57,480 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 1: Lands Part five particular friendship. 25 00:02:16,320 --> 00:02:18,639 Speaker 4: So I've just gotten into camp. 26 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:24,120 Speaker 5: And I'm heading to I'm not really sure where, because 27 00:02:25,080 --> 00:02:28,200 Speaker 5: I've spoken to a couple of the sisters on the 28 00:02:28,280 --> 00:02:33,800 Speaker 5: phone and they have the ridiculously vague about where I 29 00:02:33,800 --> 00:02:34,560 Speaker 5: could find them. 30 00:02:36,000 --> 00:02:38,800 Speaker 1: Chelby such Dave as a reporter in western India. We 31 00:02:38,919 --> 00:02:40,440 Speaker 1: hired her to find a woman who used to be 32 00:02:40,440 --> 00:02:42,560 Speaker 1: a missionary of charity and is still a sister, but 33 00:02:42,600 --> 00:02:45,919 Speaker 1: with a different organization. This woman were trying to find. 34 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:48,240 Speaker 1: I called the house where she lived several times before 35 00:02:48,280 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: I got her on the phone, but once I started 36 00:02:50,560 --> 00:02:54,560 Speaker 1: to explain why I was calling, she quickly ended the conversation. Now, 37 00:02:54,600 --> 00:02:56,320 Speaker 1: the other sisters in her group don't want to tell 38 00:02:56,360 --> 00:02:58,400 Speaker 1: us anything, even where they're located. 39 00:02:58,880 --> 00:03:00,800 Speaker 4: They won't tell me where I can reach up. They 40 00:03:00,840 --> 00:03:03,160 Speaker 4: won't tell me where I can find her or when. 41 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,520 Speaker 4: They won't give me the address of their residents and 42 00:03:07,880 --> 00:03:08,959 Speaker 4: where their order works. 43 00:03:08,960 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: Out of the woman Chavi's trying to find is Niobi, 44 00:03:13,800 --> 00:03:16,880 Speaker 1: the bold nun transferred to Mary Johnson's convent in Rome. 45 00:03:17,760 --> 00:03:19,760 Speaker 1: The nun who told Mary I love you. 46 00:03:20,600 --> 00:03:24,119 Speaker 4: I've got two envelopes with me. There are two versions 47 00:03:24,880 --> 00:03:25,480 Speaker 4: of the letter. 48 00:03:26,480 --> 00:03:29,120 Speaker 1: She has two drafts of a letter for Niobi in 49 00:03:29,160 --> 00:03:32,080 Speaker 1: case Chavy can't actually talk to her. One of them's 50 00:03:32,120 --> 00:03:34,520 Speaker 1: intentionally vague if we have to hand it to someone 51 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,120 Speaker 1: other than Niobi who might read it. 52 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:44,080 Speaker 4: The second letter is more explicit in the allegations and 53 00:03:44,160 --> 00:03:48,440 Speaker 4: that I have put in an envelope that's a strictly 54 00:03:48,480 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 4: confidential letter. 55 00:03:56,840 --> 00:03:59,880 Speaker 1: This woman were trying to reach Niobi. She first entered 56 00:03:59,880 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: Mery Johnson's life in nineteen eighty seven. 57 00:04:02,480 --> 00:04:06,760 Speaker 2: She walked in with his presence that was so unlike 58 00:04:07,200 --> 00:04:09,880 Speaker 2: what most of the missionaries of charity had, and so 59 00:04:09,920 --> 00:04:10,840 Speaker 2: she caught my attention. 60 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,560 Speaker 1: Mary was twenty nine years old, Niobi was thirty nine. 61 00:04:15,040 --> 00:04:18,240 Speaker 1: Niobi's not her real name, by the way. At this point, 62 00:04:18,279 --> 00:04:21,080 Speaker 1: Mary had been with the EMCs for a decade, and 63 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:23,640 Speaker 1: for all those years, she'd been doing everything she could 64 00:04:23,640 --> 00:04:26,760 Speaker 1: to center her life on love. Love was the point. 65 00:04:26,880 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: It's why she joined the MCS in the first place. 66 00:04:29,520 --> 00:04:31,800 Speaker 1: It's what she believed people needed most. 67 00:04:32,000 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 2: And I think maybe because I had felt excluded in 68 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 2: many of the different places I was and while my 69 00:04:38,200 --> 00:04:40,960 Speaker 2: family was a very loving family. When I was growing up, 70 00:04:41,080 --> 00:04:43,080 Speaker 2: there wasn't a lot of like I love you. There 71 00:04:43,160 --> 00:04:46,240 Speaker 2: was doing things together, there was doing things for each other. 72 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,960 Speaker 2: I had that kind of like whole, a little bit 73 00:04:51,200 --> 00:04:54,120 Speaker 2: like many many people do. I think, you know, we 74 00:04:54,160 --> 00:04:56,880 Speaker 2: all longed to be loved, to be appreciated, to be seen, 75 00:04:58,000 --> 00:04:59,760 Speaker 2: and not just for the things that we can do, 76 00:04:59,800 --> 00:05:00,760 Speaker 2: but for who we are. 77 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,360 Speaker 1: Then one day, while Mary hung her clothes to dry, 78 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:09,800 Speaker 1: Naobi whispered in her ear, sister, Donata, I love you. 79 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:14,160 Speaker 1: The clothespin fell for Mary's hand. 80 00:05:15,160 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 2: Does she mean like I love you the way I'm 81 00:05:18,400 --> 00:05:22,159 Speaker 2: supposed to love all the sisters Jesus said, love one 82 00:05:22,240 --> 00:05:24,880 Speaker 2: another as I have loved you. No, I don't think 83 00:05:24,920 --> 00:05:27,520 Speaker 2: that's what she means. She's looking at me with this 84 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:31,359 Speaker 2: big smile in her eyes. She's waiting for an answer. 85 00:05:31,520 --> 00:05:35,760 Speaker 2: She's what she do I And she picks up the 86 00:05:35,800 --> 00:05:38,560 Speaker 2: clothespin that I dropped, and her arm brushes my arm, 87 00:05:38,600 --> 00:05:41,200 Speaker 2: and I feel like this electric shock kind of thing 88 00:05:41,279 --> 00:05:46,919 Speaker 2: going through me. And she goes away, and I'm looking 89 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:50,160 Speaker 2: all day long at the big blue sky and listening 90 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:53,159 Speaker 2: to the sounds of the birds, and everything feels. 91 00:05:52,920 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: Like No, so you were happy. 92 00:05:57,160 --> 00:05:58,040 Speaker 4: I was happy. 93 00:05:58,200 --> 00:06:03,080 Speaker 2: I was confused. I was happy. I was But you know, 94 00:06:03,320 --> 00:06:06,360 Speaker 2: what do you do the first time somebody says I 95 00:06:06,440 --> 00:06:11,719 Speaker 2: love you in a way that sounds romantic and meaningful 96 00:06:11,760 --> 00:06:17,719 Speaker 2: and personal. Hell, that felt good. 97 00:06:21,920 --> 00:06:25,520 Speaker 1: One afternoon, the sisters were drinking tea, and Iobi slyly 98 00:06:25,600 --> 00:06:28,440 Speaker 1: leaned over and told a joke in Mary's ear. When 99 00:06:28,440 --> 00:06:30,720 Speaker 1: they all stood up to pray, the Superior gave Mary 100 00:06:30,800 --> 00:06:34,520 Speaker 1: a weird look. Now the Superior wasn't just any mc 101 00:06:35,200 --> 00:06:38,279 Speaker 1: Her name was Sister Joseph Michael. She was highly ranked 102 00:06:38,279 --> 00:06:41,640 Speaker 1: in the order and pretty tight with Mother Teresa. In fact, 103 00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:45,200 Speaker 1: Mother Teresa reportedly saw Sister Joseph Michael as a possible 104 00:06:45,240 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: replacement for her one day. Now, Mary started to worry. 105 00:06:50,000 --> 00:06:54,960 Speaker 1: Had the Superior seen something between her and Iobi. Later 106 00:06:55,040 --> 00:06:58,080 Speaker 1: that afternoon, Sister Joseph Michael called Mary to her office. 107 00:06:58,920 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: She told her to close the door and started pacing. Finally, 108 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:08,400 Speaker 1: Sister Joseph Michael spoke slowly and tentatively. She said she 109 00:07:08,480 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: had a special job for Mary. Revised the constitutions, the 110 00:07:14,400 --> 00:07:18,040 Speaker 1: mission and guidelines of the Missionaries of Charity, Mother Teresa's 111 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:19,600 Speaker 1: path to holiness. 112 00:07:19,600 --> 00:07:24,640 Speaker 2: And I was so totally floored, because we are always 113 00:07:24,640 --> 00:07:27,960 Speaker 2: told that the constitutions are the voice of God. Mother 114 00:07:28,040 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 2: Teresa had written the constitutions that the story goes on 115 00:07:31,440 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 2: her knees by candlelight, after all the other sisters had 116 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:35,520 Speaker 2: gone to sleep. 117 00:07:35,880 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: Mary's job was to update the constitutions to reflect current 118 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:42,400 Speaker 1: canon law. Canon law is basically the Catholic Church's internal 119 00:07:42,480 --> 00:07:46,200 Speaker 1: legal system. When a new code of canon law is issued, 120 00:07:46,600 --> 00:07:49,320 Speaker 1: Catholic orders review and update their own sets of guidelines. 121 00:07:50,080 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 1: Mary was updating the MC guidelines after Pope John Paul 122 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: the Second made revisions in the nineteen eighties. These canon 123 00:07:55,760 --> 00:07:59,000 Speaker 1: law updates don't happen very often. Pope Francis just released 124 00:07:59,080 --> 00:08:01,920 Speaker 1: new canon Law Revision twenty twenty one, and those were 125 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: the first in nearly four decades. Every day Mary wheeled 126 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,640 Speaker 1: a portable typewriter out into the garden and worked her 127 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:11,600 Speaker 1: way through the constitutions. A new word here, a new 128 00:08:11,600 --> 00:08:15,400 Speaker 1: paragraph there. She couldn't make big changes, but editing changed her. 129 00:08:16,280 --> 00:08:19,160 Speaker 1: Maybe this rule book was as human as it was divine. 130 00:08:19,240 --> 00:08:21,800 Speaker 1: If Mary could change the wording of the rules, maybe 131 00:08:21,800 --> 00:08:25,000 Speaker 1: she could tweak them in her own life too. This 132 00:08:25,160 --> 00:08:29,560 Speaker 1: was the backdrop of Mary's relationship with Niobe. While Mary typed, 133 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: Niobi would peek her head into the garden and say, 134 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:35,400 Speaker 1: have a good day. Sometimes she winked. 135 00:08:36,160 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 2: And when I was with Niobi, I finally felt myself 136 00:08:41,559 --> 00:08:47,200 Speaker 2: as lovable and loved. This kind of thing I was 137 00:08:47,240 --> 00:08:49,360 Speaker 2: trying to do for everybody else all the time, to 138 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 2: make them feel seen. This was the center of what 139 00:08:52,240 --> 00:08:55,560 Speaker 2: I was supposed to be doing, and for the first 140 00:08:55,600 --> 00:08:57,679 Speaker 2: time I was feeling it for myself. 141 00:08:59,440 --> 00:09:02,439 Speaker 1: In the week's followed, Mary talked to God about her predicament. 142 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,920 Speaker 1: She also thanked God because Naobi felt like a gift. 143 00:09:06,480 --> 00:09:10,920 Speaker 2: How can this not be from God? If it's making 144 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 2: me feel how God wants us to feel. God wants 145 00:09:14,679 --> 00:09:17,240 Speaker 2: us to feel loved, How could that not be from God. 146 00:09:19,320 --> 00:09:22,680 Speaker 1: As time passed, Naobi got older, she dropped the sister 147 00:09:22,960 --> 00:09:24,679 Speaker 1: and just started calling Mary Donata. 148 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: She's not saying, sister, donat to the way we were 149 00:09:27,240 --> 00:09:29,960 Speaker 2: always supposed to do, so just dropping that sister was 150 00:09:30,000 --> 00:09:30,960 Speaker 2: so intimate. 151 00:09:31,440 --> 00:09:33,920 Speaker 1: She'd brush past Mary in the hall, touch her foot 152 00:09:33,960 --> 00:09:38,680 Speaker 1: under the table. This made Mary nervous, really nervous. There 153 00:09:38,720 --> 00:09:42,120 Speaker 1: was no privacy in the convent. Everyone knew everyone's business. 154 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,600 Speaker 1: But Naobi didn't stop, and Mary didn't stop her. 155 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:48,760 Speaker 2: We would bow down and touch our heads to the 156 00:09:48,800 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 2: floor of the chapel. It was a tradition that was 157 00:09:52,440 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 2: adopted from India, and it was really bad because sometimes 158 00:09:58,160 --> 00:10:01,840 Speaker 2: she would get right behind me and she would grab 159 00:10:01,920 --> 00:10:05,840 Speaker 2: hold of my feet when she'd bow down, and again, 160 00:10:05,920 --> 00:10:08,000 Speaker 2: it felt kind of delicious, and at the same time, 161 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:11,480 Speaker 2: if anybody saw that, that would be a horrible It 162 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:17,400 Speaker 2: could be awful because I had been having this crisis 163 00:10:17,440 --> 00:10:20,120 Speaker 2: of conscience because even though her love felt so good 164 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:21,960 Speaker 2: and it felt so much like God, and part of 165 00:10:22,000 --> 00:10:24,559 Speaker 2: me believed it was a gift from God, another part 166 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:26,719 Speaker 2: of me knew it was wrong and that I shouldn't 167 00:10:27,240 --> 00:10:29,800 Speaker 2: be having any sort of special relationship with her sister. 168 00:10:29,960 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 2: What we were sharing was dangerous and against my vows, 169 00:10:34,120 --> 00:10:36,800 Speaker 2: and I had actually determined that I was going to 170 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:37,640 Speaker 2: tell her that. 171 00:10:42,840 --> 00:10:45,920 Speaker 1: But she didn't have the chance. Sister Niobi came with 172 00:10:45,960 --> 00:10:50,560 Speaker 1: her own news. Niobi had been instructed not to tell anyone, 173 00:10:50,720 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: but she was being transferred that same day. She had 174 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:55,600 Speaker 1: a new assignment in Napoli. 175 00:10:58,920 --> 00:10:59,360 Speaker 5: I was so. 176 00:10:59,400 --> 00:11:02,560 Speaker 2: Relieved because I had been It kind of like solved 177 00:11:02,600 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: my problem, even though I knew I was going to 178 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,880 Speaker 2: miss her, and all of these different things whirling through 179 00:11:08,920 --> 00:11:11,640 Speaker 2: my head at once. And she comes close to me 180 00:11:11,679 --> 00:11:15,440 Speaker 2: and she says, never forget our secret, never forget that 181 00:11:15,520 --> 00:11:19,160 Speaker 2: I love you, And I told her I love you too, 182 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,080 Speaker 2: the last words I said to her before she left. 183 00:11:29,040 --> 00:11:32,839 Speaker 1: Mary finished updating the constitutions, but now she creped something. 184 00:11:32,880 --> 00:11:36,959 Speaker 1: Those rules didn't allow something small, even just a hand 185 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:37,360 Speaker 1: on her. 186 00:11:37,320 --> 00:11:40,400 Speaker 2: Arm, you know, even like the sign of peace at mass, 187 00:11:40,400 --> 00:11:43,360 Speaker 2: where people would normally shake hands, we do that kind 188 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,600 Speaker 2: of nama stay sort of thing where you join your 189 00:11:45,600 --> 00:11:47,720 Speaker 2: hands in front of your chest and bow to each other. 190 00:11:48,640 --> 00:11:52,280 Speaker 2: So really nothing, nothing as far as touch goes. 191 00:11:53,720 --> 00:11:55,640 Speaker 1: One day, a van from Napoli showed up at the 192 00:11:55,640 --> 00:11:58,480 Speaker 1: convent with supplies, and when Mary went to greet it, 193 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:02,760 Speaker 1: Naobi was there unpacking the boxes. Mary was thrilled. She 194 00:12:02,840 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 1: asked Naobi to come inside with her. 195 00:12:04,640 --> 00:12:06,920 Speaker 2: And I said, you know, I've been thinking about something 196 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: and I want to ask you something, and she says sure, 197 00:12:10,000 --> 00:12:13,440 Speaker 2: ask I said, will you hold me? She says hold you? 198 00:12:13,600 --> 00:12:16,440 Speaker 2: I said, yeah, just put your arms around me for 199 00:12:16,480 --> 00:12:19,199 Speaker 2: a minute, and she kind of looks at the windows 200 00:12:19,240 --> 00:12:21,839 Speaker 2: and I maneuver us into a place where nobody will 201 00:12:21,840 --> 00:12:25,120 Speaker 2: see us and close a couple blinds. And then she 202 00:12:25,160 --> 00:12:28,360 Speaker 2: puts her arms around me, and it feels so good. 203 00:12:29,200 --> 00:12:32,760 Speaker 2: And she leans over and she kisses the top of 204 00:12:32,800 --> 00:12:42,280 Speaker 2: my sorry covered head. I could hear her heart beating, 205 00:12:42,360 --> 00:12:46,319 Speaker 2: I could feel her arms around me. It is like 206 00:12:47,360 --> 00:12:51,480 Speaker 2: everything inside me is melting. She held me just a 207 00:12:51,520 --> 00:12:55,120 Speaker 2: second more and then she went away. 208 00:12:58,160 --> 00:13:04,720 Speaker 1: Naobi got back in the van and left. It would 209 00:13:04,760 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 1: be three years before Mary saw her again. 210 00:13:26,679 --> 00:13:29,280 Speaker 6: So, like most of you, I used to be a nun, 211 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,400 Speaker 6: very relatable. That's very relatable and stand up comedy to 212 00:13:35,400 --> 00:13:36,839 Speaker 6: get up and start to talk about how you used 213 00:13:36,840 --> 00:13:38,959 Speaker 6: to be a nun And I used to be ann 214 00:13:38,960 --> 00:13:40,160 Speaker 6: with the outfit and everything. 215 00:13:40,880 --> 00:13:42,880 Speaker 1: Kelly Dunham followed her calling all the way from the 216 00:13:42,920 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 1: missionaries of charity to the stage. 217 00:13:45,160 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 6: So the first question is, oh like the sound of music. No, 218 00:13:50,440 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 6: there were less children in matching outfits and less Nazis 219 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:53,840 Speaker 6: in my story. 220 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: Kelly lives in Brooklyn. She lasted about two years as 221 00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: a sister with the MCS. To use her words, she 222 00:14:00,920 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: flunked out. She had the hardest time with the valve 223 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:06,800 Speaker 1: of chastity, not the sex part. That wasn't it. It 224 00:14:06,880 --> 00:14:08,800 Speaker 1: was the way the emces took the vow so far, 225 00:14:09,360 --> 00:14:13,600 Speaker 1: avoiding all friendship. Initially, the Order sounded like a fantasy 226 00:14:14,200 --> 00:14:18,559 Speaker 1: women working together toward a common goal of caring for others. Instead, 227 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,640 Speaker 1: Kelly says she would be asked to leave her humanity behind, 228 00:14:22,480 --> 00:14:24,280 Speaker 1: but it definitely makes for good material. 229 00:14:24,880 --> 00:14:27,280 Speaker 6: One time we got up in the morning and Sister 230 00:14:27,360 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 6: Melager told us that if we really loved Jesus, we 231 00:14:31,960 --> 00:14:35,520 Speaker 6: would mortify ourselves by going to the bathroom only once 232 00:14:35,520 --> 00:14:41,160 Speaker 6: a day. Now I thought she was kidding, so I 233 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:43,880 Speaker 6: laughed and said, okay, just call me Sister Mary bladder infection. 234 00:14:50,040 --> 00:14:53,400 Speaker 6: She didn't think that was funny. 235 00:14:53,600 --> 00:14:56,840 Speaker 1: Kelly joined the Order for idealistic reasons, but when she 236 00:14:56,840 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: looks back, she knows she was a little different from 237 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,160 Speaker 1: the stereotypical MC. First off, she didn't grow up Catholic. 238 00:15:02,360 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 1: She was raised as an evangelical Christian. 239 00:15:04,680 --> 00:15:06,760 Speaker 6: I'm also, you know, like a very queer person. Even 240 00:15:06,760 --> 00:15:08,200 Speaker 6: though I did not know it then, I just knew 241 00:15:08,240 --> 00:15:09,440 Speaker 6: I didn't fit in very well. 242 00:15:10,040 --> 00:15:12,160 Speaker 1: She first got involved with the Missionaries of Charity in 243 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:16,520 Speaker 1: nineteen ninety as a volunteer in Haiti. Most aid organizations 244 00:15:16,560 --> 00:15:19,440 Speaker 1: in Haiti frustrated her. They didn't seem to give Haitian 245 00:15:19,480 --> 00:15:22,840 Speaker 1: people a voice. But as she saw the MCEs listened 246 00:15:22,880 --> 00:15:25,520 Speaker 1: to what locals had to say. She loved how the 247 00:15:25,560 --> 00:15:28,480 Speaker 1: Sisters looked in their sories, how they worked so hard, 248 00:15:28,800 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: how strong they were. 249 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 6: By that spring, I was in love not with like 250 00:15:32,560 --> 00:15:34,480 Speaker 6: one sister, but like with all of them. 251 00:15:35,640 --> 00:15:38,320 Speaker 1: Before she could join the MCS, she had to convert 252 00:15:38,320 --> 00:15:39,120 Speaker 1: to Catholicism. 253 00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 6: As it turns out, they kind of insist on that thing. 254 00:15:43,560 --> 00:15:46,400 Speaker 1: While Kelly was becoming a Catholic, she volunteered with the 255 00:15:46,400 --> 00:15:49,600 Speaker 1: Sisters in Miami, and eventually she got wored. The MCS 256 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:52,600 Speaker 1: had accepted her she would start her training in New York. 257 00:15:53,360 --> 00:15:55,440 Speaker 1: So the Sisters in Miami had her over for Tea 258 00:15:55,520 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: to say goodbye. 259 00:15:56,720 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 6: And they made me this card. You know. I opened 260 00:15:59,560 --> 00:16:01,480 Speaker 6: it up and it was like, welcome to your beautiful 261 00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,960 Speaker 6: vocation and it said something like you know, your love 262 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:08,200 Speaker 6: of Christ must destroy you completely. And then it had 263 00:16:08,240 --> 00:16:11,240 Speaker 6: like little pictures, little like red drops off the words, 264 00:16:11,240 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 6: and they're like, oh, it's the blood of Jesus, Like wow, 265 00:16:13,680 --> 00:16:14,840 Speaker 6: this is so gruesome. 266 00:16:15,360 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 1: Your love of Christ must destroy you completely. One of 267 00:16:19,040 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 1: the professed Sisters pulled Kelly aside. 268 00:16:21,440 --> 00:16:25,280 Speaker 6: She said, if at some point you feel like they're 269 00:16:25,320 --> 00:16:28,200 Speaker 6: really breaking your head, then you just leave, just run, 270 00:16:28,280 --> 00:16:28,760 Speaker 6: and just go. 271 00:16:31,160 --> 00:16:33,720 Speaker 1: There's one story from the convent that really sticks out 272 00:16:33,720 --> 00:16:36,640 Speaker 1: to Kelly. It's on her mistress told over and over 273 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:40,840 Speaker 1: again as this inspirational tale. A superior walks into a 274 00:16:40,920 --> 00:16:44,240 Speaker 1: chapel of praying sisters and instead of saying anything, she 275 00:16:44,280 --> 00:16:46,240 Speaker 1: writes a message on a chalkboard. 276 00:16:46,240 --> 00:16:49,960 Speaker 6: Please pray for the father of sister Mary whoever, he's 277 00:16:50,080 --> 00:16:52,240 Speaker 6: very ill. And then that's how she found out that 278 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,960 Speaker 6: her father was sick. And then fifteen minutes later, the 279 00:16:57,200 --> 00:17:00,600 Speaker 6: superior came in wipe that off the black board and wrote, 280 00:17:00,760 --> 00:17:03,320 Speaker 6: please pray for the father of sister whoever. 281 00:17:04,000 --> 00:17:04,320 Speaker 2: Rip. 282 00:17:05,560 --> 00:17:07,360 Speaker 6: So that's how she found out how her father. 283 00:17:07,280 --> 00:17:11,440 Speaker 1: Died, and the superior didn't say anything else the end. 284 00:17:11,840 --> 00:17:16,040 Speaker 6: That's the story that just seems needlessly cruel. And she 285 00:17:16,119 --> 00:17:19,120 Speaker 6: said that sister just really trusted Jesus and really trusted 286 00:17:19,119 --> 00:17:22,760 Speaker 6: her superior that much like those are the stories you 287 00:17:22,880 --> 00:17:27,440 Speaker 6: hear when somebody wants to tell you an inspirational story. 288 00:17:27,680 --> 00:17:30,879 Speaker 6: You know that's a wacko for a inspirational story. 289 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:35,200 Speaker 1: And another story from her mistress. A sister finds out 290 00:17:35,200 --> 00:17:37,800 Speaker 1: her entire family was killed in the Rwandan Civil War. 291 00:17:39,119 --> 00:17:41,879 Speaker 1: After a few tears, she never mentions it again. 292 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,360 Speaker 6: And that has held out this kind of the gold standard, 293 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:46,679 Speaker 6: that she trusted Jesus so much that she never had 294 00:17:46,720 --> 00:17:49,800 Speaker 6: an emotional expression about it after that. But I think 295 00:17:49,840 --> 00:17:52,680 Speaker 6: the mission is a charity. Like your feelings were just 296 00:17:52,680 --> 00:17:55,360 Speaker 6: supposed to be irrelevant and we're not giving you information. 297 00:17:55,440 --> 00:17:57,320 Speaker 6: There were just things that you pray to get rid of. 298 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 6: But people have feelings, and the feeling is actually our information, 299 00:18:02,119 --> 00:18:08,240 Speaker 6: and it's just so not compatible with the way humans are. 300 00:18:09,640 --> 00:18:12,560 Speaker 7: I'm really good with kids. It's one of my strengths. 301 00:18:13,080 --> 00:18:16,040 Speaker 1: This is Mary Anderson, not to be confused with Mary Johnson. 302 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:19,000 Speaker 1: There are a lot of Mary's in this story. Like 303 00:18:19,040 --> 00:18:21,280 Speaker 1: the other Mary, this one worked with kids as part 304 00:18:21,280 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 1: of her service. 305 00:18:21,880 --> 00:18:24,760 Speaker 7: Work, and I love them and I connect it with them, 306 00:18:24,800 --> 00:18:25,920 Speaker 7: and I would play with them. 307 00:18:26,480 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 1: And she skipped with them, and I was. 308 00:18:28,720 --> 00:18:31,920 Speaker 7: Told that that was wrong. I wasn't conducting myself as 309 00:18:31,960 --> 00:18:35,800 Speaker 7: a proper nun. And surely Marry the Mother of God 310 00:18:35,920 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 7: never skipped, And I remember thinking that's rubbish, like skipping 311 00:18:41,880 --> 00:18:45,080 Speaker 7: is joyful and why should I be, you know, having 312 00:18:45,160 --> 00:18:49,080 Speaker 7: to do penance like kidding ourselves or kneeling on hard 313 00:18:49,119 --> 00:18:53,679 Speaker 7: floors or you know, because I was skipping and I 314 00:18:53,840 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 7: was just so torn up by those things, and yet 315 00:18:58,000 --> 00:19:01,320 Speaker 7: to be constantly told that, well, you have to not 316 00:19:01,640 --> 00:19:04,720 Speaker 7: trust what you think and field you have to think 317 00:19:04,760 --> 00:19:07,800 Speaker 7: the way we do and what you think is wrong 318 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,040 Speaker 7: and you know, and so I was getting the message 319 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:15,400 Speaker 7: over and over you cannot trust what you think. Your 320 00:19:15,520 --> 00:19:18,840 Speaker 7: thoughts are not very good because they're not right, you know. 321 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:25,960 Speaker 1: Not every former MC sister sees detachment as a bad thing. 322 00:19:26,560 --> 00:19:28,720 Speaker 1: Joan Worster says, it's incredibly valuable. 323 00:19:29,119 --> 00:19:32,040 Speaker 8: I think I got a great relationship with God through 324 00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,800 Speaker 8: all of this. Even though there was some suffering involved, 325 00:19:35,359 --> 00:19:39,080 Speaker 8: I feel like it was the best experience of my life. 326 00:19:39,600 --> 00:19:43,600 Speaker 8: The main thing was not having anything. That was tremendous 327 00:19:43,600 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 8: for me because I have no attachment to anything at 328 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:49,960 Speaker 8: this point in my life. It taught me so much 329 00:19:50,520 --> 00:19:56,800 Speaker 8: for detachment, even from objects, from objects, from people. I 330 00:19:56,840 --> 00:19:58,840 Speaker 8: always say this to people, and I think it's hard 331 00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:02,560 Speaker 8: for people to understand this. I say, I love people, 332 00:20:02,960 --> 00:20:05,200 Speaker 8: I love my husband, i love my children, but I'm 333 00:20:05,240 --> 00:20:10,680 Speaker 8: not attached. My life journey is my attachment to God totally. 334 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:15,639 Speaker 8: So while I appreciate and love, I'm just not attached, 335 00:20:16,840 --> 00:20:17,280 Speaker 8: if that. 336 00:20:17,200 --> 00:20:21,200 Speaker 1: Makes sense, I think. So that's such an interesting concept 337 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:26,280 Speaker 1: for me, and I think I'm probably pretty attached. 338 00:20:26,560 --> 00:20:29,199 Speaker 8: But I can love. The thing about love for me 339 00:20:29,359 --> 00:20:32,879 Speaker 8: is I can love so much more because I'm not attached. 340 00:20:33,280 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 8: If I have my husband for as long as I 341 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,200 Speaker 8: have him, if he were to die, my life would 342 00:20:39,200 --> 00:20:42,119 Speaker 8: not change. It would change in what I would have 343 00:20:42,160 --> 00:20:45,399 Speaker 8: to deal with, you know, depression or sadness, but it 344 00:20:45,440 --> 00:20:48,639 Speaker 8: wouldn't change my love for him, you know what I'm saying. So, 345 00:20:48,640 --> 00:20:51,119 Speaker 8: so that way, it's kind of like a for me, 346 00:20:51,200 --> 00:20:54,120 Speaker 8: it's a release of life, but I get to live 347 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:55,600 Speaker 8: the life. 348 00:20:55,760 --> 00:21:01,320 Speaker 1: It sounds peaceful, it is. Any former sisters we spoke 349 00:21:01,359 --> 00:21:05,560 Speaker 1: to think this forced detachment is crippling. They say it's 350 00:21:05,560 --> 00:21:08,200 Speaker 1: a contradiction to be asked to love and help others 351 00:21:08,680 --> 00:21:12,080 Speaker 1: and also remain emotionally distant. They struggled with this rule 352 00:21:12,119 --> 00:21:15,960 Speaker 1: against friendship or what's called particular friendship. 353 00:21:16,080 --> 00:21:18,960 Speaker 6: Which is like kind of the euphemism for like none 354 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,760 Speaker 6: on non action. But even when people had kind of 355 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 6: platonic friendships, they'd often send people away because they just 356 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,160 Speaker 6: didn't want people to be connected to each other. 357 00:21:27,720 --> 00:21:31,760 Speaker 1: Kelly says MC's weren't just worried about particular friendships. Appearance 358 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: and demeanor were also scrutinized. 359 00:21:33,800 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 6: They have a lot of talk about like how our 360 00:21:36,119 --> 00:21:38,080 Speaker 6: lady was very feminine. 361 00:21:37,520 --> 00:21:37,720 Speaker 2: You know. 362 00:21:38,040 --> 00:21:40,200 Speaker 6: They say, like, oh, our lady, she was a real lady, 363 00:21:40,400 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 6: you know whatever. 364 00:21:41,720 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: As sisters in Kelly's training class progressed to the next level, 365 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:46,680 Speaker 1: Kelly says she was held back. 366 00:21:47,600 --> 00:21:50,040 Speaker 6: The specific problem that they said that I had was 367 00:21:50,080 --> 00:21:53,440 Speaker 6: that I had too much self esteem and insufficient docility. 368 00:21:53,920 --> 00:21:56,479 Speaker 6: Even when I managed to say the right things, they 369 00:21:56,480 --> 00:21:59,200 Speaker 6: would say that my body language was like I walked 370 00:21:59,240 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 6: like my shoulders were angry as how they said it, which, 371 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:03,879 Speaker 6: you know, I think that could mean a lot of 372 00:22:03,920 --> 00:22:07,159 Speaker 6: things too, What do you mean by that? Like I 373 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:09,639 Speaker 6: remember one time she lent me her prayer book and 374 00:22:09,680 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 6: it had a little list of the things she was 375 00:22:11,320 --> 00:22:13,840 Speaker 6: praying about, and one of them was me, And she 376 00:22:13,880 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 6: said that I was scary, and I was like, nobody 377 00:22:16,480 --> 00:22:18,480 Speaker 6: in my life has ever called me scary, But I 378 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:20,880 Speaker 6: think that there was something about me that was maybe 379 00:22:20,920 --> 00:22:23,439 Speaker 6: threatening to her. Maybe it was about sexuality. I don't know. 380 00:22:26,680 --> 00:22:29,120 Speaker 1: All Kelly knew for sure was that she was stressed, 381 00:22:30,080 --> 00:22:32,520 Speaker 1: so stressed that she says she got her period for 382 00:22:32,640 --> 00:22:34,240 Speaker 1: four months straight. 383 00:22:34,280 --> 00:22:36,199 Speaker 6: Which I think was my body's way of being like 384 00:22:36,280 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 6: get out, get out, you know. And we used like 385 00:22:39,320 --> 00:22:43,040 Speaker 6: non disposable menstrual stuff, right like really, they just handed 386 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:45,679 Speaker 6: us diapers, you know, like the cloth diapers that we 387 00:22:45,720 --> 00:22:47,480 Speaker 6: folded up and then we had to wash them by hand. 388 00:22:47,880 --> 00:22:51,439 Speaker 6: And so one day we were cleaning the women's shelter 389 00:22:51,640 --> 00:22:55,680 Speaker 6: in Harlem and there was a tampon sitting on top 390 00:22:55,720 --> 00:22:57,600 Speaker 6: of one of the dressers and I was like, I'm 391 00:22:57,600 --> 00:22:59,639 Speaker 6: gonna borrow that, and then I put it in my 392 00:22:59,680 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 6: pocket and then I was walking away. I was like, 393 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 6: I'm not gonna borrow and I'm not giving it back. 394 00:23:03,840 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 6: And that was kind of the moment where I was like, 395 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,960 Speaker 6: you know, this is not making me a better person, 396 00:23:09,800 --> 00:23:12,159 Speaker 6: Like I don't know who I am. Maybe you know, 397 00:23:12,280 --> 00:23:13,879 Speaker 6: but I know who I don't want to be, and 398 00:23:13,920 --> 00:23:16,640 Speaker 6: that's a person who steals a tampon from a homeless woman. 399 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:19,720 Speaker 6: And I don't think I've ever been as stressed as 400 00:23:19,760 --> 00:23:21,040 Speaker 6: I was in that situation. 401 00:23:22,960 --> 00:23:25,359 Speaker 1: She had to walk away. Kelly turned in her. 402 00:23:25,400 --> 00:23:29,359 Speaker 6: Sorry, it's sad because I did see sisters, even sisters 403 00:23:29,359 --> 00:23:31,600 Speaker 6: who seemed like they were pretty happy with the life, 404 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:36,159 Speaker 6: just being destroyed by this constant need of mistresses and 405 00:23:36,200 --> 00:23:39,040 Speaker 6: superiors to destroy the bonds between people. 406 00:23:53,240 --> 00:23:56,560 Speaker 2: The advance of human liberty can only strengthen the cause 407 00:23:56,720 --> 00:24:01,320 Speaker 2: of world peace. There is one sign the Soviets can 408 00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: make that would be unmistakable. 409 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,840 Speaker 1: In the late nineteen eighties, big changes were underway. The 410 00:24:06,840 --> 00:24:11,160 Speaker 1: world was spinning, the Soviet Union was reforming. President Ronald 411 00:24:11,240 --> 00:24:13,359 Speaker 1: Reagan gave a speech in front of the Berlin Wall. 412 00:24:14,280 --> 00:24:18,119 Speaker 2: Mister Gerbashow teared down this wall. 413 00:24:21,560 --> 00:24:25,000 Speaker 1: Meanwhile, the missionaries of Charity expanded into the Eastern Bloc. 414 00:24:25,359 --> 00:24:28,520 Speaker 1: They opened a mission in Moscow, something unthinkable a few 415 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,919 Speaker 1: years before. Mary Johnson wanted to explore places she'd never been, 416 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 1: to be part of the mission out in the world. 417 00:24:36,960 --> 00:24:41,080 Speaker 2: I wanted adventures. I wanted to go places and see things. 418 00:24:41,119 --> 00:24:44,680 Speaker 2: And the constraints that had been placed on me had 419 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,520 Speaker 2: perhaps been done so in a loving manner, but they 420 00:24:47,520 --> 00:24:48,920 Speaker 2: were constraints. Nonetheless. 421 00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,760 Speaker 1: She lived mostly in Rome. She studied theology, She did 422 00:24:52,760 --> 00:24:56,680 Speaker 1: some clerical work. She sometimes visited a prison or helped 423 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,119 Speaker 1: it at home for expecting mothers. Ninety, she moved up 424 00:25:01,160 --> 00:25:04,600 Speaker 1: the ladder again. Mary became a mistress for nuns nearing 425 00:25:04,600 --> 00:25:08,199 Speaker 1: their final vows, the vows for life. But when she 426 00:25:08,200 --> 00:25:10,000 Speaker 1: saw who was on the list of sisters she'd be 427 00:25:10,040 --> 00:25:13,840 Speaker 1: responsible for, her heart stopped. Niobi. 428 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,520 Speaker 2: Never forget our secret, Never forget that I love you. 429 00:25:19,760 --> 00:25:22,800 Speaker 1: Mary hadn't seen Niobi for three years. Now they'd be 430 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,760 Speaker 1: living under the same roof again, only this time Mary 431 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:26,720 Speaker 1: would be her mistress. 432 00:25:27,160 --> 00:25:30,920 Speaker 2: That was something I had never envisioned, never imagined that 433 00:25:31,200 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 2: Niobe would be someone I would be responsible for. And 434 00:25:34,440 --> 00:25:37,560 Speaker 2: I knew that I was just going to have to 435 00:25:37,760 --> 00:25:40,560 Speaker 2: really make it very very clear to her that our 436 00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:46,480 Speaker 2: relationship could not continue as it had. Okay, this is 437 00:25:46,520 --> 00:25:50,480 Speaker 2: getting a little intense. RACA, I'm gonna go and come 438 00:25:50,520 --> 00:25:59,880 Speaker 2: back in like a minute. Sounds good, Okay. 439 00:26:00,440 --> 00:26:02,840 Speaker 1: Mary had told me before that our interviews affected her 440 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:06,479 Speaker 1: more than she expected. Old nightmares returned, nightmares about her 441 00:26:06,480 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: time as an MC, the kind of nightmares where you 442 00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:11,919 Speaker 1: feel trapped. We actually took a break from interviews for 443 00:26:11,960 --> 00:26:13,879 Speaker 1: a few months, and I thought, maybe we need to 444 00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:14,920 Speaker 1: end this interview early. 445 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:28,520 Speaker 9: Okay, here we go, let's see I did sleep much 446 00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:29,120 Speaker 9: last night. 447 00:26:32,000 --> 00:26:32,720 Speaker 1: How are you doing? 448 00:26:33,359 --> 00:26:48,080 Speaker 2: Oh, it comes in waves. It's kind of intense. It's okay, okay. 449 00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:53,800 Speaker 2: So when Iobi actually arrived at Zenship, she was pretty 450 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,920 Speaker 2: good in the beginning, you know, she kind of sat 451 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,200 Speaker 2: near me at the table a few times, but when 452 00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:01,520 Speaker 2: a new sister came, that was kind of normal, so 453 00:27:01,720 --> 00:27:04,720 Speaker 2: not a big deal. But then one day we're having 454 00:27:04,840 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: rule class and she always looked very intently at me 455 00:27:07,880 --> 00:27:12,399 Speaker 2: when I was teaching about the rules, especially, and she 456 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,800 Speaker 2: followed me into the office and she shut the door 457 00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:21,040 Speaker 2: behind herself, and she says, what a great rule class. 458 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:24,760 Speaker 2: And I tell her, it's good to know that you're 459 00:27:24,760 --> 00:27:28,680 Speaker 2: getting something out of the class, and thanks for the encouragement. 460 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:31,919 Speaker 2: And she says, well, yes, you're a natural. And I 461 00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:34,840 Speaker 2: just want to give you a big hug. And she 462 00:27:34,880 --> 00:27:38,000 Speaker 2: wrapped her arms around me, which had been exactly what 463 00:27:38,160 --> 00:27:42,679 Speaker 2: I wanted a few years before that, but not then, 464 00:27:43,280 --> 00:27:48,000 Speaker 2: because now I was in charge of her preparation for 465 00:27:48,040 --> 00:27:51,240 Speaker 2: her vows, and so I said, no, no, I don't 466 00:27:51,280 --> 00:27:54,160 Speaker 2: think we should be doing this. I appreciate the gesture, 467 00:27:54,240 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 2: but you know, no hug. And she held me and 468 00:27:59,320 --> 00:28:03,000 Speaker 2: I just had my arms down at my sides, trying 469 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:04,760 Speaker 2: to give her the message this is not all right. 470 00:28:04,880 --> 00:28:07,040 Speaker 2: And then I told her with words, you know, we 471 00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:11,040 Speaker 2: just really we can't do this anymore. I am you Attertion, mistress, 472 00:28:11,119 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 2: you are attertion. We are going to keep all the rules. 473 00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:18,760 Speaker 2: We can't do this anymore. I told her, sister Niobe, 474 00:28:18,960 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 2: we can't do this, and she says, all right, all right, 475 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:25,520 Speaker 2: I can bear anything, but I can't bear you calling 476 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:30,640 Speaker 2: me sister, and she left and I thought, well, she's 477 00:28:30,680 --> 00:28:32,120 Speaker 2: going to have to get used to it, because I'm 478 00:28:32,119 --> 00:28:34,760 Speaker 2: calling her sister Niobe from here on out. We have 479 00:28:34,840 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 2: to make this boundary. 480 00:28:42,920 --> 00:28:47,440 Speaker 1: That night, Mary hit herself harder with the discipline, and 481 00:28:47,520 --> 00:28:50,280 Speaker 1: in the morning she pulled the spike Jain's extra tight 482 00:28:50,400 --> 00:29:16,120 Speaker 1: around her waist. Mary had never been in a relationship before, 483 00:29:16,560 --> 00:29:19,960 Speaker 1: and navigating boundaries is never easy, especially the first time, 484 00:29:20,400 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: especially for a nun. Her firm response to Niobe seemed 485 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,560 Speaker 1: to work for a few days. Sister and Niobi gave 486 00:29:26,600 --> 00:29:29,920 Speaker 1: her space, but not for long, she says. One time, 487 00:29:30,000 --> 00:29:32,360 Speaker 1: Niobi shoved her into the office and held her against 488 00:29:32,400 --> 00:29:36,160 Speaker 1: the wall, pressing on her chest. Another time, she followed 489 00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: Mary into the dormitory and tried to untie her bodice. 490 00:29:39,720 --> 00:29:44,880 Speaker 1: Mary kicked her in the shin to make her stop, and. 491 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:49,640 Speaker 2: It started to feel very manipulative. It started to feel 492 00:29:49,760 --> 00:29:52,520 Speaker 2: very abusive. Even though I didn't have the word for 493 00:29:52,560 --> 00:29:55,200 Speaker 2: it at the time, I just knew it wasn't right. 494 00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:57,320 Speaker 2: I just knew it wasn't love, and I knew that 495 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:02,880 Speaker 2: she wasn't stopping. It just became totally out of control. 496 00:30:04,520 --> 00:30:06,520 Speaker 1: By now, Mary felt like she was pouring all her 497 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:09,800 Speaker 1: energy into keeping sister Naobi at bay, and she had 498 00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: twenty seven other sisters to manage. She needed to take 499 00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:13,560 Speaker 1: care of all of them. 500 00:30:14,120 --> 00:30:16,680 Speaker 2: And at the same time, this part of me that 501 00:30:16,760 --> 00:30:19,520 Speaker 2: wanted to be loved, but this didn't feel like love, 502 00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:22,560 Speaker 2: and it was. It was awful. It was so confusing, 503 00:30:22,640 --> 00:30:23,400 Speaker 2: it was horrible. 504 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:26,520 Speaker 1: How would you characterize it now, you said abusive? Do 505 00:30:26,560 --> 00:30:29,000 Speaker 1: you feel like she was assaulting you? 506 00:30:29,920 --> 00:30:32,920 Speaker 2: I do feel it's abusive. I do feel it's an assault. 507 00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,560 Speaker 2: But clearly I was not giving consent. I made that 508 00:30:36,640 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 2: really clear, over and over and over and over again, 509 00:30:39,560 --> 00:30:45,200 Speaker 2: and she just wasn't hearing any of it. Finally to 510 00:30:45,240 --> 00:30:50,760 Speaker 2: the point where she kind of wore me down. 511 00:30:52,600 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 5: Jellous sanctist. 512 00:30:58,920 --> 00:31:00,440 Speaker 10: Right according for the up. 513 00:31:00,800 --> 00:31:01,240 Speaker 2: And I have. 514 00:31:03,680 --> 00:31:05,240 Speaker 4: Reached my best to me sure. 515 00:31:06,440 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: At first, Chavey thinks she's found the soup kitchen where 516 00:31:08,760 --> 00:31:13,240 Speaker 1: Niobi works. Turns out she hasn't. She's in a residential neighborhood, 517 00:31:13,360 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: clearly not the right spot, so she starts asking around, Well, I'm. 518 00:31:19,240 --> 00:31:20,840 Speaker 4: Looking for the soup kitchen. 519 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:23,920 Speaker 2: Oh, the soup kitchen. 520 00:31:24,000 --> 00:31:25,560 Speaker 4: I was told that this is the address. 521 00:31:28,120 --> 00:31:30,480 Speaker 1: Here's why we're going to such links to deliver this letter. 522 00:31:31,400 --> 00:31:33,760 Speaker 1: These are Mary's memories as she expressed them to us. 523 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: With intimate personal experiences like this, especially in an insular 524 00:31:37,640 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: religious community, it's hard to substantiate all the details. I'm 525 00:31:41,960 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 1: also aware of the power dynamic between Mary and Niobi. 526 00:31:45,040 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: Mary became Niobe's mistress. Mary was in charge, and right 527 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,680 Speaker 1: now we only have her version of events. So I 528 00:31:51,720 --> 00:31:54,320 Speaker 1: want to reach Niobe. When I spoke with her on 529 00:31:54,360 --> 00:31:56,640 Speaker 1: the phone, she ended the conversation before I could explain 530 00:31:56,760 --> 00:31:59,280 Speaker 1: everything about the story. I want to get her as 531 00:31:59,320 --> 00:32:01,880 Speaker 1: much information as possible to give her a chance to 532 00:32:01,920 --> 00:32:02,880 Speaker 1: share her experience. 533 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 10: The municipal office is on my right or. 534 00:32:07,480 --> 00:32:12,000 Speaker 1: Yes, please, thankfully. Chavvy randomly meets someone in the wrong neighborhood. 535 00:32:12,000 --> 00:32:12,880 Speaker 1: Who knows where to go? 536 00:32:13,240 --> 00:32:15,920 Speaker 10: And she said, to ask anybody where are the mothers 537 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:16,920 Speaker 10: giving free food? 538 00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:18,640 Speaker 4: And they will tell you. 539 00:32:19,400 --> 00:32:20,280 Speaker 2: So off I go. 540 00:32:25,720 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 9: How are you. 541 00:32:27,880 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 8: So you're here every day on Sunday. 542 00:32:32,400 --> 00:32:34,200 Speaker 1: Eventually Chavvy finds the soup kitchen. 543 00:32:34,560 --> 00:32:37,280 Speaker 5: So I have a letter for her. 544 00:32:37,320 --> 00:32:39,800 Speaker 10: We will give her, but you know, they've asked me 545 00:32:39,840 --> 00:32:40,959 Speaker 10: to make sure she gets it. 546 00:32:41,320 --> 00:32:43,719 Speaker 8: Yeah, sure, we will give sure. 547 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:45,800 Speaker 7: No, I don't. 548 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,040 Speaker 10: It's not that I don't trust you, of course, but 549 00:32:49,760 --> 00:32:54,080 Speaker 10: I mean they've asked me to make sure that her 550 00:32:54,160 --> 00:32:57,640 Speaker 10: name is Erica and they are in America. 551 00:32:58,800 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 1: Chevy speaks with the sister for quite a while. She 552 00:33:01,520 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: asks if she can speak with Niobi directly. 553 00:33:03,960 --> 00:33:09,360 Speaker 4: She said she doesn't want to talk to anybody. 554 00:33:09,400 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: Finally, Chavvy hands over the letter. 555 00:33:11,560 --> 00:33:13,840 Speaker 10: But nobody else will read this letter because it's personal. 556 00:33:14,160 --> 00:33:17,360 Speaker 4: No, no, make our phone number. 557 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 10: Yeah, we just need confirmation. 558 00:33:19,520 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 4: And she has received it, and whatever she chooses to 559 00:33:22,240 --> 00:33:29,720 Speaker 4: do is up to walk. Thank you God, thank you bye, 560 00:33:30,120 --> 00:33:32,440 Speaker 4: thank you bye. 561 00:33:33,280 --> 00:33:35,600 Speaker 1: That's the last we've heard. We don't know for sure 562 00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: whether Niobi was given the letter. We haven't heard from her. 563 00:33:42,040 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: As Mary tells the story, she was worn down, exhausted 564 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:49,640 Speaker 1: by the secret, and they relentless back and forth Naobe's pressure. 565 00:33:50,480 --> 00:33:54,680 Speaker 1: She wanted it to stop. And then Mary says, Naobi 566 00:33:54,720 --> 00:33:57,960 Speaker 1: approached her with a proposition, just one night together. 567 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 2: She was going on and on about how she wanted 568 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 2: just one night to make me feel really good, and 569 00:34:06,200 --> 00:34:10,799 Speaker 2: she promised that she would stop after that night. I 570 00:34:10,880 --> 00:34:14,280 Speaker 2: wanted that more than anything. I wanted her to stop. 571 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 2: I wanted her to stop. 572 00:34:18,360 --> 00:34:19,719 Speaker 1: So what ended up happening. 573 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:22,800 Speaker 2: I went to her one night and I said, okay, 574 00:34:22,920 --> 00:34:23,600 Speaker 2: this is the night. 575 00:34:24,680 --> 00:34:27,160 Speaker 1: After the sisters went to bed, Mary left her cot 576 00:34:27,239 --> 00:34:30,680 Speaker 1: and crept to where Naobi slept. She touched Niobe's shoulder 577 00:34:30,800 --> 00:34:35,680 Speaker 1: and whispered, tonight. I wanted tonight. She went upstairs and 578 00:34:35,719 --> 00:34:38,480 Speaker 1: waited in a small room that wasn't being used. Then 579 00:34:38,520 --> 00:34:43,640 Speaker 1: sister Niobi arrived. They lay on the bed, Niobi on 580 00:34:43,719 --> 00:34:47,280 Speaker 1: top of Mary, face to face. Her weight was comforting, 581 00:34:48,160 --> 00:34:51,520 Speaker 1: so were Niobe's lips on Mary's forehead, then her cheeks 582 00:34:51,920 --> 00:34:55,480 Speaker 1: and her lips. I love you, Niobi whispered to Mary. 583 00:34:56,200 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 1: I want you, I. 584 00:34:57,440 --> 00:35:01,520 Speaker 2: Need you, and she may me feel things I had 585 00:35:01,560 --> 00:35:08,880 Speaker 2: never felt before. She it was my first experience of 586 00:35:09,560 --> 00:35:16,439 Speaker 2: that sort of sexual relationship. And it did feel really good, 587 00:35:16,600 --> 00:35:23,319 Speaker 2: of course it did. It was like, if this is 588 00:35:24,120 --> 00:35:27,080 Speaker 2: a human love, how much bigger must God's love be? 589 00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:30,600 Speaker 2: But the biggest thought I was having was okay, so 590 00:35:30,680 --> 00:35:31,680 Speaker 2: now it's going to be over. 591 00:35:33,400 --> 00:35:35,719 Speaker 1: But it wasn't over, Mary says, and I will be 592 00:35:35,760 --> 00:35:38,839 Speaker 1: ignored their agreement. She didn't staff, not at all. 593 00:35:39,360 --> 00:35:42,040 Speaker 2: She wanted more, and she's like, you must want more 594 00:35:42,040 --> 00:35:44,239 Speaker 2: to of course you want more, And of course part 595 00:35:44,280 --> 00:35:46,280 Speaker 2: of me did want more, but part of me didn't. 596 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:52,279 Speaker 2: And just again this whole confusion, because what happens when 597 00:35:52,440 --> 00:35:56,640 Speaker 2: a human being who hasn't felt loved, who has very 598 00:35:56,680 --> 00:36:00,640 Speaker 2: little idea of her sexuality, suddenly starts to discover those things. 599 00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:03,640 Speaker 2: Of Course you want to know more, you want to 600 00:36:03,800 --> 00:36:07,320 Speaker 2: understand what this is all about. But at the same time, 601 00:36:08,640 --> 00:36:11,640 Speaker 2: the same human being who's beginning to discover these new 602 00:36:11,719 --> 00:36:16,320 Speaker 2: facets of life has vows which say those are sinful 603 00:36:16,480 --> 00:36:19,840 Speaker 2: and you've given that up. And that's okay for other people, 604 00:36:19,840 --> 00:36:22,760 Speaker 2: but it's not okay for you. You are a nun. 605 00:36:22,800 --> 00:36:24,120 Speaker 2: Come on now, wake up. 606 00:36:28,160 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 1: Mary says. She didn't know what to do. Niobe wouldn't 607 00:36:30,960 --> 00:36:33,440 Speaker 1: leave her alone. Now she couldn't go to the superior 608 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,040 Speaker 1: because she'd have to admit she broke her rows. She 609 00:36:36,080 --> 00:36:41,120 Speaker 1: didn't see it way out. One day, her superior approached her. 610 00:36:41,640 --> 00:36:43,560 Speaker 1: She told Mary she needed to share a story and 611 00:36:43,640 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: confidence it had happened at a general chapter meeting, the 612 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,080 Speaker 1: meeting for mc leadership. Mary Superior said that the sisters 613 00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,440 Speaker 1: were all discussing the matters of the day, and at 614 00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:55,560 Speaker 1: one point one of them read an anonymous letter aloud. 615 00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:59,160 Speaker 2: The sister who wrote this letter claimed that there was 616 00:36:59,200 --> 00:37:08,480 Speaker 2: another sister who had forced herself on her, followed her around, 617 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 2: had touched her in ways she didn't want to be touched, 618 00:37:10,920 --> 00:37:12,000 Speaker 2: wouldn't listen to know. 619 00:37:13,000 --> 00:37:15,080 Speaker 1: Immediately, Mary thought of her own experience. 620 00:37:15,880 --> 00:37:20,080 Speaker 2: She said that this sister had done this from the 621 00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 2: time she was a novice before she took her first vows, 622 00:37:22,880 --> 00:37:26,120 Speaker 2: that she found sisters in the Novisiat who were more 623 00:37:26,160 --> 00:37:29,120 Speaker 2: senior than her, and she was doing similar things. 624 00:37:30,000 --> 00:37:32,920 Speaker 1: Finally, the Superior revealed that the letter was about Niobe. 625 00:37:33,600 --> 00:37:36,120 Speaker 1: She thought since Mary was Niobe's mistress, she should know. 626 00:37:36,920 --> 00:37:41,800 Speaker 2: And after this letter was read, Mother stood up. 627 00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: And Mother Teresa was more angry than the Superior had 628 00:37:44,920 --> 00:37:48,279 Speaker 1: ever seen her. Mary assumed she was angry at Niobe. 629 00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:51,640 Speaker 2: Oh no, no, Mother wasn't upset that the sister was 630 00:37:51,760 --> 00:37:55,719 Speaker 2: behaving this way. Mother was upset that anyone had written it, 631 00:37:55,880 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 2: and then even that it had been read out loud 632 00:37:59,280 --> 00:38:04,239 Speaker 2: at the chapter. What mattered to Mother was that someone's 633 00:38:04,280 --> 00:38:10,120 Speaker 2: reputation had been destroyed, and that was kind of devastating 634 00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:10,400 Speaker 2: to me. 635 00:38:13,960 --> 00:38:18,239 Speaker 1: Mary was angry, She thought, no wonder, Niobi, he's getting transferred. 636 00:38:18,760 --> 00:38:20,640 Speaker 1: No wonder. Sister told us not to ask about the 637 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:24,040 Speaker 1: trouble Niobi had at her last convent. And when Mary 638 00:38:24,120 --> 00:38:27,480 Speaker 1: learned who else Naobi targeted, she realized the sisters resembled her, 639 00:38:28,160 --> 00:38:30,600 Speaker 1: joined at a young age, not likely to have had 640 00:38:30,640 --> 00:38:34,080 Speaker 1: sexual experiences, more senior in the congregation, so if they 641 00:38:34,080 --> 00:38:36,560 Speaker 1: were found out, Naobi wouldn't be blamed. 642 00:38:37,520 --> 00:38:40,880 Speaker 2: And sure enough, Mother said, it can't be this sister's fault, 643 00:38:40,960 --> 00:38:44,080 Speaker 2: because the sister who is more senior, she is the 644 00:38:44,120 --> 00:38:47,160 Speaker 2: one who should have the responsibility. She should know better, 645 00:38:47,200 --> 00:38:48,880 Speaker 2: she should say no. And then, of course, if a 646 00:38:48,920 --> 00:38:51,799 Speaker 2: senior sister says no, the junior sister will always obey that. 647 00:38:52,239 --> 00:38:54,680 Speaker 2: And of course Naobe wasn't like that at all. And 648 00:38:54,760 --> 00:38:57,920 Speaker 2: though Niobe was my junior, and at that point was 649 00:38:57,960 --> 00:39:01,239 Speaker 2: even under me. She he was ten years older than 650 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 2: I was and far more experienced in so many ways. 651 00:39:06,080 --> 00:39:08,239 Speaker 1: The more Mary thought about it, the more upset she got. 652 00:39:08,800 --> 00:39:11,359 Speaker 1: Why had no one stopped her? How could superiors look 653 00:39:11,400 --> 00:39:13,880 Speaker 1: the other way? How could Naobi have been allowed to 654 00:39:13,880 --> 00:39:16,440 Speaker 1: take her first vows? Was it anyone watching? 655 00:39:17,160 --> 00:39:19,880 Speaker 2: I think there was definitely a trend in the missionaries 656 00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 2: of charity, and actually in the Catholic Church as a whole, 657 00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:28,640 Speaker 2: of not paying attention to problems, denying problems, not wanting 658 00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:31,520 Speaker 2: to see that they're there, wanting to blame them on 659 00:39:31,560 --> 00:39:34,919 Speaker 2: an individual's weakness, and therefore saying, well, we're all weak, 660 00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:39,359 Speaker 2: and so let's be forgiving. Let's be merciful. And of 661 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,920 Speaker 2: course mercy and love and forgiveness are the things that 662 00:39:44,080 --> 00:39:47,720 Speaker 2: can change people. Love is one of the most powerful things. 663 00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:50,400 Speaker 2: So yes, we should love. But at the same time, 664 00:39:51,400 --> 00:39:56,440 Speaker 2: there is a responsibility when you admit someone into a community, 665 00:39:57,480 --> 00:40:00,960 Speaker 2: and the responsibility is not just to that person, but 666 00:40:01,040 --> 00:40:03,160 Speaker 2: you have to look at how that person is affecting 667 00:40:03,239 --> 00:40:10,080 Speaker 2: the entire community. 668 00:40:11,000 --> 00:40:13,759 Speaker 1: What Mary did next was risky, but she says she 669 00:40:13,800 --> 00:40:17,160 Speaker 1: had to stop Niobe from harming anyone else. She wrote 670 00:40:17,200 --> 00:40:20,840 Speaker 1: to Mother Teresa and put her vocation on the line. 671 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:24,920 Speaker 1: She told her they'd broken the vow of chastity, that 672 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:31,000 Speaker 1: she firmly believed Niobe shouldn't take her final vows. After 673 00:40:31,040 --> 00:40:33,960 Speaker 1: Mary sent the letter, a sister flew from Germany to 674 00:40:34,080 --> 00:40:36,799 Speaker 1: Rome for the sole purpose of talking to Mary. It 675 00:40:36,840 --> 00:40:38,919 Speaker 1: was one of the most influential sisters in the order, 676 00:40:39,120 --> 00:40:42,359 Speaker 1: known for being strict. She sat at Mother Teresa's desk 677 00:40:42,520 --> 00:40:46,280 Speaker 1: and scolded Mary for breaking her vows, for not setting 678 00:40:46,320 --> 00:40:50,200 Speaker 1: a good example. Mary agreed to every point. She said 679 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: she was sorry, sister. The other responded, I'm sure God 680 00:40:54,120 --> 00:41:00,120 Speaker 1: forgives you. Jesus forgave even Mary Magdalene. In the end, 681 00:41:00,880 --> 00:41:06,320 Speaker 1: nothing changed. Mary kept her position, Naobi took her vows. 682 00:41:07,120 --> 00:41:16,560 Speaker 1: Mary never felt so powerless. After a few months, Mary 683 00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:20,040 Speaker 1: couldn't take the pressure of the convent anymore. When a 684 00:41:20,080 --> 00:41:22,080 Speaker 1: sister in our house needed to go to the hospital, 685 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:26,080 Speaker 1: Mary volunteered to take her. She realized this was her chance. 686 00:41:27,239 --> 00:41:29,600 Speaker 2: This little plan was forming in the back of my head. 687 00:41:35,160 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: The two of them got into a car with a 688 00:41:36,840 --> 00:41:40,439 Speaker 1: driver and they drove toward the coast where the hospital was. 689 00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,720 Speaker 2: And there were palm trees, and there was the sky 690 00:41:44,920 --> 00:41:47,360 Speaker 2: and you could see the water off in the distance, 691 00:41:47,480 --> 00:41:50,799 Speaker 2: and it was like a breath of freedom. It was 692 00:41:51,000 --> 00:41:56,120 Speaker 2: like a way to breathe again. And I just wanted 693 00:41:56,120 --> 00:42:00,000 Speaker 2: more and more of that air, that freedom, that life, 694 00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:00,919 Speaker 2: that light. 695 00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:07,239 Speaker 1: When the sister went in for her appointment, Mary sat 696 00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:10,640 Speaker 1: in the waiting room and reviewed her plan. She knew 697 00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:13,640 Speaker 1: the facility, She tried to remember where the Lost and 698 00:42:13,640 --> 00:42:16,879 Speaker 1: Found was. That's where she'd find normal clothes. She would 699 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:19,080 Speaker 1: change out of her sorry then make her way to 700 00:42:19,080 --> 00:42:22,520 Speaker 1: one of the empty beach houses nearby. She would escape. 701 00:42:23,200 --> 00:42:25,560 Speaker 2: I thought, this is my chance. I'd just have to 702 00:42:25,640 --> 00:42:26,080 Speaker 2: take it. 703 00:42:28,080 --> 00:42:31,520 Speaker 1: But just then the doctor and sister reappeared. The checkup 704 00:42:31,600 --> 00:42:49,520 Speaker 1: was already over. Soon Mary was in the car heading 705 00:42:49,560 --> 00:42:57,960 Speaker 1: back to the convent. After that day, she often gazed 706 00:42:57,960 --> 00:43:01,120 Speaker 1: out the convent window. She stared at the back corner 707 00:43:01,160 --> 00:43:05,160 Speaker 1: of the garden. She imagined digging a hole, crawling in 708 00:43:05,760 --> 00:43:12,840 Speaker 1: and covering herself with dirt. She wrote in her notebook, Trapped, Trapped, Trapped. 709 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:52,600 Speaker 1: The turning is written by Aileen lance Lester and me. 710 00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:55,920 Speaker 1: Our producers are Allen lance Lester and Emily Foreman. Our 711 00:43:56,000 --> 00:43:59,560 Speaker 1: editor is Rob Rosenthal. Andrea Asoige is our digital producer 712 00:44:00,000 --> 00:44:03,799 Speaker 1: in fact checking by Andrea Lopez Cruzado. Special thanks to 713 00:44:03,880 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 1: Chavi Setch, Dave, Amy Gaines, Sarah Olander, Maraud Frishkoff, Katherine Joyce, 714 00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,920 Speaker 1: Bethan Macaluso, Travis Dunlap, and consulting producer Mary Johnson. Her 715 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:17,720 Speaker 1: memoir Unquenchable Thirst provided inspiration for this series. Our executive 716 00:44:17,760 --> 00:44:20,840 Speaker 1: producers are Jessica Alpert and John Parati from Rococo Punch 717 00:44:21,120 --> 00:44:24,440 Speaker 1: and Katrina Norville from iHeartRadio. Our theme music is by 718 00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,400 Speaker 1: Matt Reid. For photos and more details on the series, 719 00:44:27,440 --> 00:44:30,759 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Rococo Punch. You can reach 720 00:44:30,800 --> 00:44:34,800 Speaker 1: out via email to the Turning at Rococo punch dot com. 721 00:44:35,040 --> 00:45:24,080 Speaker 1: I'm Erica Lance. Thanks for listening.