1 00:00:02,840 --> 00:00:05,640 Speaker 1: The oldest university of the United States is Harvard University. 2 00:00:05,680 --> 00:00:08,280 Speaker 1: It's also one of the most respected universities of the United States, 3 00:00:08,520 --> 00:00:11,200 Speaker 1: but recently there's been some challenges by the federal government 4 00:00:11,240 --> 00:00:14,000 Speaker 1: the way Harvard is operating. I had a chance recently 5 00:00:14,040 --> 00:00:16,880 Speaker 1: to sit down with Alan Garber, the president of Harvard University, 6 00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,320 Speaker 1: to talk about the challenge of the federal government now 7 00:00:19,360 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: faces and the challenges of American higher education. Harvard is 8 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:26,920 Speaker 1: the America's oldest university, founded in sixteen thirty six. It's 9 00:00:27,040 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: very famous university, maybe the most famous university in the world. 10 00:00:30,840 --> 00:00:34,159 Speaker 1: But recently it's been in the news because Harvard sued 11 00:00:34,240 --> 00:00:37,640 Speaker 1: the federal government, which was a very unusual thing for 12 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:40,720 Speaker 1: Harvard to do. Why did Harvard sue the federal government 13 00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:42,240 Speaker 1: and what's the status of that case. 14 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 2: I can only tell you a little bit about the 15 00:00:46,320 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 2: status of the case except what's publicly known, which is 16 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 2: that we received a favorable law of judgment in district court. 17 00:00:55,560 --> 00:00:59,720 Speaker 2: And I think you're referring to the lawsuit in which 18 00:01:00,120 --> 00:01:05,040 Speaker 2: we alleged First Amendment violations as well as procedural violations 19 00:01:05,080 --> 00:01:09,000 Speaker 2: by the federal government when they cut off our funding 20 00:01:10,319 --> 00:01:14,560 Speaker 2: and we sued because they cut off our funding. We 21 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,560 Speaker 2: should be very clear about that. It was done in 22 00:01:17,600 --> 00:01:23,319 Speaker 2: a precipitous manner without any real process. We really had 23 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:27,400 Speaker 2: no choice because we had hundreds of millions of dollars 24 00:01:27,840 --> 00:01:30,400 Speaker 2: at stake. And I want to point out one other thing. 25 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:35,320 Speaker 2: This was not in the form of gifts or subsidies. 26 00:01:35,640 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 2: It was payment for research that we were performing at 27 00:01:40,520 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 2: the behest of the federal government. We were fulfilling our 28 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:48,240 Speaker 2: obligations under the terms of the grants and contracts that 29 00:01:48,280 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 2: the federal government issued. 30 00:01:49,640 --> 00:01:51,600 Speaker 3: So how much money was frozen. 31 00:01:51,680 --> 00:01:53,720 Speaker 2: It's a little bit hard to be precise, but on 32 00:01:53,760 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 2: the order of six hundred million dollars. 33 00:01:55,720 --> 00:01:59,240 Speaker 1: Six hundred million was frozen. Some of that has now 34 00:01:59,320 --> 00:02:02,920 Speaker 1: come back to Harvard or yes, So to make up 35 00:02:02,960 --> 00:02:06,040 Speaker 1: the gap, is Harvard getting that money and giving it 36 00:02:06,080 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: to the people doing the research out of its own funds, 37 00:02:08,560 --> 00:02:10,799 Speaker 1: or you have special fundraising, or how do you make 38 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: up the gap. 39 00:02:11,639 --> 00:02:13,720 Speaker 2: There was a long period in which we did not 40 00:02:13,880 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 2: have the funding, and the Central University used its resources 41 00:02:20,360 --> 00:02:25,200 Speaker 2: to help the investigators continue at least some of their work, 42 00:02:25,400 --> 00:02:28,079 Speaker 2: not all of the work could be funded by the 43 00:02:28,200 --> 00:02:31,480 Speaker 2: university and the schools that are part of the university. 44 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:35,760 Speaker 2: What's important to recognize is that there was very critical 45 00:02:35,840 --> 00:02:38,640 Speaker 2: work that could not be stopped, but we could not 46 00:02:38,760 --> 00:02:41,760 Speaker 2: really afford to make up for all of the loss 47 00:02:41,800 --> 00:02:43,320 Speaker 2: money from the federal government. 48 00:02:43,400 --> 00:02:46,040 Speaker 1: Now people sometimes say, well, Harvard has an endowment that's 49 00:02:46,120 --> 00:02:48,480 Speaker 1: let's say, over fifty billion dollars, so you have plenty 50 00:02:48,480 --> 00:02:50,040 Speaker 1: of money. Why couldn't you just take some of that 51 00:02:50,080 --> 00:02:52,000 Speaker 1: fifty billion dollars in use it for the research. 52 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:55,880 Speaker 2: Well, of course, the endowment is a very important source 53 00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 2: of revenue. One thing that it is important to realize 54 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:06,080 Speaker 2: about the endowment is that it's heavily restricted. So, for example, 55 00:03:07,080 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 2: we have funds to pay for individual professorships, we have 56 00:03:11,960 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: funds that are dedicated to a particular research center. Funds 57 00:03:16,000 --> 00:03:18,760 Speaker 2: of that kind they cannot be used for other purposes. 58 00:03:19,320 --> 00:03:22,080 Speaker 2: So that's one restriction that makes it very hard to 59 00:03:22,120 --> 00:03:26,920 Speaker 2: treat this like some giant piggybank where we can take 60 00:03:26,919 --> 00:03:29,160 Speaker 2: out funds when we need them on a rainy day. 61 00:03:29,280 --> 00:03:33,320 Speaker 2: There is a second consideration as well, which is that 62 00:03:34,360 --> 00:03:37,400 Speaker 2: most of the terms under which people gave money for 63 00:03:37,440 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 2: the endowment include an obligation that this should be sustainable, 64 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:45,600 Speaker 2: and what that really means is that future generations should 65 00:03:45,680 --> 00:03:49,200 Speaker 2: have access to the same resources that we have today, 66 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:53,200 Speaker 2: so that limits how rapidly you can spend from the endowment. 67 00:03:53,400 --> 00:03:55,480 Speaker 1: There's an endowment tax that was put in under the 68 00:03:55,520 --> 00:03:59,760 Speaker 1: first Trump administration and it was increased in this current administration. 69 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 1: Do you see any real justification for that tax and 70 00:04:03,680 --> 00:04:06,480 Speaker 1: is it impacting Harvard adversely or other schools like Harvard 71 00:04:06,960 --> 00:04:08,080 Speaker 1: the endowment text. 72 00:04:08,720 --> 00:04:14,520 Speaker 2: Clearly, it's a substantial text, particularly for universities like Harvard 73 00:04:14,520 --> 00:04:19,600 Speaker 2: that are expected to be in the top tier. And 74 00:04:19,680 --> 00:04:24,680 Speaker 2: of course it's damaging because, for example, so much of 75 00:04:24,720 --> 00:04:28,200 Speaker 2: our financial aid, the scholarships that we give our students 76 00:04:28,240 --> 00:04:32,719 Speaker 2: are funded through the endowment, and it funds the research, 77 00:04:33,120 --> 00:04:37,159 Speaker 2: it funds all kinds of activities in the university. So yes, 78 00:04:37,200 --> 00:04:42,480 Speaker 2: it's quite damaging in terms of addressing the problems that 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:47,039 Speaker 2: we are accused of, and that I believe was part 80 00:04:47,080 --> 00:04:51,480 Speaker 2: of the rationale for passing the endowment text. The tax 81 00:04:51,560 --> 00:04:54,799 Speaker 2: is only going to make it harder to address these issues, 82 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:56,320 Speaker 2: not easier. 83 00:04:56,600 --> 00:04:59,120 Speaker 1: In the early days, Harvard and most universities and I say, 84 00:04:59,160 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: didn't get money from the federal government. After World War Two, 85 00:05:02,400 --> 00:05:06,080 Speaker 1: the federal government dramatically increased amount of money given to 86 00:05:06,720 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: universities for research. Do you think that was a good 87 00:05:09,320 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: thing for the US government to do that, and you 88 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:14,159 Speaker 1: think the universities became too dependent on the federal government, 89 00:05:14,320 --> 00:05:17,040 Speaker 1: or you think they benefited and it's really been good 90 00:05:17,040 --> 00:05:17,960 Speaker 1: for the country to do this. 91 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:22,360 Speaker 2: The period that you're referring to was really set into 92 00:05:22,440 --> 00:05:28,160 Speaker 2: motion by a report by Vineva Bush, who had written 93 00:05:28,160 --> 00:05:33,279 Speaker 2: a book called The Endless Frontier, and he argued that 94 00:05:33,640 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 2: it would be more efficient for the federal government to 95 00:05:37,400 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 2: support research by working with universities than pursuing more of 96 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:45,800 Speaker 2: a European style model where there would be independent research 97 00:05:45,920 --> 00:05:50,240 Speaker 2: institutes the federal government would pay for everything. That's what 98 00:05:50,400 --> 00:05:55,640 Speaker 2: set in motion what became a real boom in innovation 99 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,360 Speaker 2: in science and technology in the United States. I would 100 00:05:59,400 --> 00:06:02,880 Speaker 2: add that in addition to the funding that went to 101 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,920 Speaker 2: universities to conduct research, the country benefited from an influx 102 00:06:08,200 --> 00:06:11,520 Speaker 2: of immigrants who are some of the greatest scientists in 103 00:06:11,560 --> 00:06:16,120 Speaker 2: the world, largely in the post war period, and actually 104 00:06:16,200 --> 00:06:21,120 Speaker 2: during the war and just before the war, largely European scientists. 105 00:06:21,400 --> 00:06:26,040 Speaker 2: That combination made the US the world leader in science 106 00:06:26,080 --> 00:06:27,000 Speaker 2: and technology. 107 00:06:27,200 --> 00:06:29,200 Speaker 1: Well in the early part of the twentieth century. If 108 00:06:29,240 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 1: one were to say what were the greatest universities in 109 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:33,719 Speaker 1: the world, the United States might not have had the 110 00:06:33,760 --> 00:06:36,359 Speaker 1: top universities. Is that because the federal government has been 111 00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: supporting and also because the endowments have grown. 112 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 2: I would say it's solid the above. But I would 113 00:06:41,960 --> 00:06:47,039 Speaker 2: also say that we have had, over the past many 114 00:06:47,120 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 2: decades a relentless focus on attracting the best talent in 115 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 2: the entire world. It takes resources, but the resources not 116 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:01,359 Speaker 2: only financial. The resources are human resources. And we have 117 00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:07,680 Speaker 2: done an amazing job in attracting great talent from all 118 00:07:07,760 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 2: of the world. So that combination is what enabled the 119 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:13,120 Speaker 2: US to be so successful. 120 00:07:13,320 --> 00:07:19,120 Speaker 1: Harvard was sued for discriminating on admissions ultimately went to 121 00:07:19,160 --> 00:07:23,040 Speaker 1: the Supreme Court. Supreme Court ruled against Harvard. How has 122 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:26,680 Speaker 1: Harvard changed its admissions policies to conform with what the 123 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: Supreme Court now says as the law. 124 00:07:29,200 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 2: Well, we had announced in the first official communication upon 125 00:07:35,320 --> 00:07:38,040 Speaker 2: the release of the Supreme Court's decision that we would 126 00:07:38,240 --> 00:07:41,400 Speaker 2: adhere to the law, not change our values and principles, 127 00:07:41,440 --> 00:07:44,440 Speaker 2: but we would certainly adhere to the law. The specific 128 00:07:44,560 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: measures that we've taken have been many. We've made sure 129 00:07:48,720 --> 00:07:53,400 Speaker 2: that in the admissions process, nobody involved in making a 130 00:07:53,480 --> 00:07:57,240 Speaker 2: decision about admissions has access to the check the box 131 00:07:57,720 --> 00:08:02,440 Speaker 2: what's your race, what's your ethnicity, etc. So they don't 132 00:08:02,440 --> 00:08:05,520 Speaker 2: have access to that information. Of course, there's an interview 133 00:08:05,840 --> 00:08:09,560 Speaker 2: in an essay, aspects of identity will come out, but 134 00:08:09,720 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 2: we do not have We do not provide that information 135 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:19,559 Speaker 2: to the admissions officers where people identify, and I would 136 00:08:19,560 --> 00:08:22,080 Speaker 2: add that we train them to make sure that they 137 00:08:22,120 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 2: don't consider these characteristics that are prohibited from consideration in 138 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,840 Speaker 2: through the SFFA decision. 139 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:35,240 Speaker 1: You're talking about immigrants and how the major universities have 140 00:08:35,280 --> 00:08:37,240 Speaker 1: brought a lot of immigrants over and they were great 141 00:08:37,880 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: faculty members and researchers. What about getting foreign students today 142 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:46,559 Speaker 1: to American universities. Do you actually feel that foreign students 143 00:08:46,600 --> 00:08:49,160 Speaker 1: are now afraid to apply because of visa problems or 144 00:08:49,200 --> 00:08:50,719 Speaker 1: they think they won't get in because there's going to 145 00:08:50,760 --> 00:08:53,440 Speaker 1: be some discrimination against foreign students. How has the whole 146 00:08:53,559 --> 00:08:56,760 Speaker 1: concern and watching about foreign students and foreign faculty affected 147 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:57,560 Speaker 1: at Harvard. 148 00:08:57,679 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 2: For many programs, there is a lot of hesitancy about 149 00:09:03,280 --> 00:09:07,280 Speaker 2: initiate about attending college or attending graduate school in the 150 00:09:07,400 --> 00:09:11,760 Speaker 2: US because of uncertainty about visa status and whether that 151 00:09:11,800 --> 00:09:15,480 Speaker 2: could be taken away. At the same time, this year 152 00:09:15,840 --> 00:09:19,960 Speaker 2: we've had a lot of success and the students who 153 00:09:19,960 --> 00:09:24,640 Speaker 2: were actually admitted virtually from other countries, virtually all of 154 00:09:24,679 --> 00:09:28,080 Speaker 2: them have been able to attend. So it's too early 155 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,400 Speaker 2: to have a confident answer your question, but we are worried, 156 00:09:32,679 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 2: and I want to say one other thing. They aren't 157 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 2: strictly speaking students, but postdocts. That is, the postdoctoral fellows 158 00:09:39,600 --> 00:09:43,800 Speaker 2: who work in our labs, in the hospitals and in 159 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 2: other parts of the university. There is some evidence that 160 00:09:48,679 --> 00:09:51,839 Speaker 2: fewer of them are applying for jobs in the US. 161 00:09:52,080 --> 00:09:55,960 Speaker 1: The hostages have now come back in Israel, but it 162 00:09:56,000 --> 00:09:58,439 Speaker 1: was the events that led to the hostage being taken 163 00:09:58,480 --> 00:10:00,360 Speaker 1: and all the people who were killed on Over the 164 00:10:00,400 --> 00:10:04,880 Speaker 1: seventh that led to protests on campuses. Harvard and other 165 00:10:04,960 --> 00:10:09,600 Speaker 1: universities had encampments and other types of protests. What has 166 00:10:09,640 --> 00:10:13,240 Speaker 1: Harvard done since that time to address the concerns that 167 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: some people have that Harvard was not sufficiently dealing with 168 00:10:17,240 --> 00:10:20,960 Speaker 1: anti Semitism, or that Harvard's ability to let people protest 169 00:10:21,120 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 1: wasn't appropriate. 170 00:10:22,360 --> 00:10:23,960 Speaker 3: How have you changed things, if at all. 171 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:28,000 Speaker 2: We've done a lot to address these issues. And one 172 00:10:28,040 --> 00:10:32,319 Speaker 2: of the challenges we face from beginning concerning the protests 173 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:37,160 Speaker 2: is that people claimed that our rules were unclear what's 174 00:10:37,200 --> 00:10:40,839 Speaker 2: permissible in a protest, and so one of the first 175 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:44,359 Speaker 2: things we did is to develop a set of guidelines. 176 00:10:44,400 --> 00:10:49,760 Speaker 2: Basically that drew upon a document called the University Statement 177 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:53,640 Speaker 2: on Rights and Responsibilities, which is created in the early seventies. 178 00:10:54,240 --> 00:10:59,640 Speaker 2: That outlined how we protect protests but also enabled the 179 00:11:00,200 --> 00:11:02,960 Speaker 2: of our community to carry on their work without disruption. 180 00:11:03,240 --> 00:11:07,320 Speaker 2: So we provided some clarity there for anti Semitism and 181 00:11:07,400 --> 00:11:11,080 Speaker 2: also for the complaints that we heard about anti Muslim, 182 00:11:11,160 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 2: anti Arab, anti Palestinian incidents. I created two presidential task 183 00:11:17,679 --> 00:11:21,120 Speaker 2: forces to study the issues and make a set of recommendations. 184 00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:27,240 Speaker 2: Both of those task forces took their work very seriously. 185 00:11:27,280 --> 00:11:29,160 Speaker 2: It took a lot of time, but they gathered data, 186 00:11:29,240 --> 00:11:33,439 Speaker 2: they did hundreds upon hundreds of interviews, and then they 187 00:11:33,480 --> 00:11:36,800 Speaker 2: came up with a very lengthy set of recommendations, which 188 00:11:37,240 --> 00:11:41,880 Speaker 2: we have implemented. We're well on the way to implement those. 189 00:11:42,040 --> 00:11:45,320 Speaker 1: So you're the thirty first president of Harvard University. You 190 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:47,360 Speaker 1: were Harvard undergraduate. Did you ever think when you were 191 00:11:47,400 --> 00:11:50,640 Speaker 1: Harvard undergraduated you wind up as president university someday. 192 00:11:51,360 --> 00:11:53,640 Speaker 2: Well, back those days, we would have said, what are 193 00:11:53,679 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 2: you smoking. 194 00:11:56,400 --> 00:11:59,560 Speaker 1: Let's talk about your background for a moment. Where were 195 00:11:59,600 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: you born. 196 00:12:01,120 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 2: In Illinois, Western Illinois. 197 00:12:03,080 --> 00:12:06,600 Speaker 1: And your parents were they Harvard graduates? 198 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 2: Well, my father didn't go to college and my mother 199 00:12:10,720 --> 00:12:12,280 Speaker 2: went to the University of Wisconsin. 200 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,400 Speaker 1: So when you're growing up, did people say, Helen is 201 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:18,440 Speaker 1: really really smart, he should go to Harvard. Did you 202 00:12:18,480 --> 00:12:21,840 Speaker 1: always think you were really talented as an academic kid 203 00:12:21,880 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: in high school and you knew you were going to 204 00:12:23,440 --> 00:12:25,840 Speaker 1: get into Harvard. 205 00:12:26,080 --> 00:12:28,680 Speaker 2: If people said I was a really talented kid and 206 00:12:28,679 --> 00:12:31,920 Speaker 2: I should go to Harvard, they didn't say it to me. Okay, 207 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: I was a good student. 208 00:12:35,000 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 3: What class were you at Harvard? 209 00:12:37,720 --> 00:12:40,600 Speaker 2: Well, I entered with the class of nineteen seventy seven, 210 00:12:40,720 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 2: so I started in nineteen seventy three. 211 00:12:44,040 --> 00:12:46,080 Speaker 3: Were any prominent people in your class? 212 00:12:48,240 --> 00:12:50,559 Speaker 2: It may sound like I'm bragging. There are a lot 213 00:12:50,600 --> 00:12:53,040 Speaker 2: of alumni here in the audience, and I bet every 214 00:12:53,040 --> 00:12:55,200 Speaker 2: one of them is proud of their class. But here 215 00:12:55,480 --> 00:12:59,280 Speaker 2: let me brag about my classmates. The person whose face 216 00:12:59,480 --> 00:13:03,800 Speaker 2: was beneath mine in the freshman Facebook was Bill Gates? 217 00:13:04,559 --> 00:13:09,559 Speaker 3: What happened to him? He dropped out? Dropped out? 218 00:13:10,160 --> 00:13:12,120 Speaker 1: When he dropped out, you'd think you ever hear of 219 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:12,520 Speaker 1: him again? 220 00:13:13,080 --> 00:13:14,440 Speaker 3: Yeah, I'd say. 221 00:13:14,440 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 2: Some of us have heard from him. Steve Baumber, the 222 00:13:19,240 --> 00:13:23,360 Speaker 2: Chief Justice Supreme Court, John Roberts, a pretty good class 223 00:13:23,360 --> 00:13:26,760 Speaker 2: other university presidents. There's a lot of Moia names in. 224 00:13:27,360 --> 00:13:30,200 Speaker 1: So it normally takes four years to graduate from college. 225 00:13:30,559 --> 00:13:31,679 Speaker 1: How many years did it take you? 226 00:13:32,440 --> 00:13:32,840 Speaker 2: Three? 227 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 3: Three? 228 00:13:33,679 --> 00:13:36,319 Speaker 1: So you after three years, what do you decide you 229 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:37,760 Speaker 1: want to do? You go to graduate school? Do you 230 00:13:37,800 --> 00:13:40,240 Speaker 1: want to do something important like private equity, going to 231 00:13:40,320 --> 00:13:40,920 Speaker 1: business school? 232 00:13:41,040 --> 00:13:42,560 Speaker 3: Or you didn't want to do that? What did you 233 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:43,199 Speaker 3: want to do? Well? 234 00:13:43,240 --> 00:13:46,440 Speaker 2: I couldn't make up my mind. So I did. I 235 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:49,000 Speaker 2: did a PhD in economics and an MD. 236 00:13:50,080 --> 00:13:53,280 Speaker 1: PhD in economics and an MD. But the PhD economics 237 00:13:53,360 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 1: was at Harvard, the MD was at Stanford. So wasn't 238 00:13:56,800 --> 00:13:58,760 Speaker 1: that by coastal a little bit difficult? 239 00:13:58,800 --> 00:14:03,120 Speaker 2: I had a great experience studying economics at Harvard. I 240 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,599 Speaker 2: had done enough for the graduate courses at Harvard and 241 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: that I could shorten the time it took to get 242 00:14:10,240 --> 00:14:13,240 Speaker 2: a PhD. And what I learned in the applications process 243 00:14:13,880 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 2: is that other PhD programs would not recognize they would 244 00:14:18,080 --> 00:14:19,880 Speaker 2: not give me credit for the Harvard courses. 245 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:23,800 Speaker 1: So you got an MD from Stanford, a PhD from Harvard. 246 00:14:24,000 --> 00:14:26,280 Speaker 1: What led you back to Stanford? You taught at Stanford, 247 00:14:26,320 --> 00:14:26,760 Speaker 1: is that right? 248 00:14:27,080 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 3: Yes? 249 00:14:27,520 --> 00:14:28,600 Speaker 2: For twenty five years? 250 00:14:28,600 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: Twenty five years. So you're living in California. The weather 251 00:14:31,120 --> 00:14:34,560 Speaker 1: is very good, it's a beautiful campus. What propelled you 252 00:14:34,600 --> 00:14:37,120 Speaker 1: after twenty five years to come back to the East 253 00:14:37,200 --> 00:14:40,200 Speaker 1: Coast to be the provost at Harvard. 254 00:14:41,080 --> 00:14:43,320 Speaker 2: Well, I think a lot of people in this audience 255 00:14:43,440 --> 00:14:45,640 Speaker 2: know Drew Faust, and let me just tell you she's 256 00:14:45,680 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 2: a very persuasive person. And I was chair of the 257 00:14:51,560 --> 00:14:55,440 Speaker 2: committee to visit the Harvard Medical School and Harvard School 258 00:14:55,480 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 2: of Dental Medicine. That's how I met Drew, and it 259 00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:03,080 Speaker 2: brought me back here about once a year. And it 260 00:15:03,120 --> 00:15:08,600 Speaker 2: was through that that I met her and she asked 261 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:10,960 Speaker 2: me if i'd be interested in looking at the job 262 00:15:11,000 --> 00:15:14,920 Speaker 2: of provost when it opened up. My initial answer was no, 263 00:15:16,240 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 2: but somehow she got me to change. 264 00:15:17,920 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: Okay, so you came back as provost and Drew Faust 265 00:15:21,040 --> 00:15:24,720 Speaker 1: and then when Drew retired, Larry backhow became the president 266 00:15:24,720 --> 00:15:28,360 Speaker 1: of Harvard and you stayed as the provost, that's right. 267 00:15:28,440 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: And then when Claudine Gay became the president of Harvard, 268 00:15:31,400 --> 00:15:33,440 Speaker 1: you stayed as the provost. So how many years were 269 00:15:33,440 --> 00:15:34,880 Speaker 1: you the provost at Harvard? 270 00:15:35,400 --> 00:15:36,240 Speaker 2: Twelve and a half. 271 00:15:36,560 --> 00:15:39,080 Speaker 1: And for people that don't know what a provost is, 272 00:15:39,160 --> 00:15:41,239 Speaker 1: what actually do you do when you're a provost? 273 00:15:44,840 --> 00:15:47,600 Speaker 2: The provost is the number two officer of the university 274 00:15:47,720 --> 00:15:52,720 Speaker 2: and the chief academic officer at Harvard. It's a relatively 275 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:56,000 Speaker 2: new role. There was a provost briefly at the end 276 00:15:56,080 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 2: of World War Two because President Conant was in Washington, 277 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,640 Speaker 2: was kind of around the university, very temporary arrangement, but 278 00:16:03,680 --> 00:16:07,840 Speaker 2: it really started in modern times in nineteen ninety one. 279 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:13,400 Speaker 2: It's a job that expanded pretty much monotonically over time. 280 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 2: And when I took on the job, the provost was 281 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:20,680 Speaker 2: responsible for all of the inter faculty initiatives. The deans 282 00:16:20,760 --> 00:16:24,520 Speaker 2: reported to both the president and the provost, and the 283 00:16:24,560 --> 00:16:28,800 Speaker 2: provosts had a huge role in faculty appointments and promotion. 284 00:16:28,920 --> 00:16:32,440 Speaker 1: And Claudingay stepped down as president, you were put in 285 00:16:32,480 --> 00:16:34,760 Speaker 1: as the interim president of Harvard, and now you're the 286 00:16:34,760 --> 00:16:37,840 Speaker 1: president of Harvard. What's the pleasure of being the president 287 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:38,320 Speaker 1: of Harvard. 288 00:16:38,520 --> 00:16:42,240 Speaker 2: I was asked on January first to step in as 289 00:16:42,560 --> 00:16:47,200 Speaker 2: interim president on January second, and I knew that being 290 00:16:47,280 --> 00:16:50,600 Speaker 2: provost was a pretty demanding job pretty much twenty four 291 00:16:50,640 --> 00:16:53,680 Speaker 2: to seven and I was about to do two jobs. 292 00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:56,920 Speaker 2: There were twenty four to seven until I could put 293 00:16:56,960 --> 00:17:00,760 Speaker 2: a new provost in place. So there's just the sheer 294 00:17:00,840 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 2: volume of work was daunting. And then there's the fact 295 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:06,800 Speaker 2: that we were in a crisis that we were under 296 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,640 Speaker 2: at Tech. My answer in normal times would be, these 297 00:17:10,640 --> 00:17:13,360 Speaker 2: are the advantages of being president. This is what's annoying. 298 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:18,720 Speaker 2: What I learned by serving in this time is that 299 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,840 Speaker 2: serving in a time of crisis, I believe is far 300 00:17:22,920 --> 00:17:27,320 Speaker 2: more rewarding than serving in normal times. And it's rewarding 301 00:17:27,760 --> 00:17:30,119 Speaker 2: because you can really make a difference. There is no 302 00:17:30,240 --> 00:17:32,120 Speaker 2: time like the president to do the job. 303 00:17:32,240 --> 00:17:34,040 Speaker 1: In the early days of the country, there were a 304 00:17:34,080 --> 00:17:37,000 Speaker 1: few private universities. They were all private pretty much in 305 00:17:37,040 --> 00:17:39,920 Speaker 1: the early days. But in recent years Harvard has in 306 00:17:40,080 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: size and breadth and depth, really going way past the 307 00:17:43,960 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: other major universities that you could argue what enabled Harvard 308 00:17:47,320 --> 00:17:50,920 Speaker 1: to become such a big university relative that let's say Princeton, 309 00:17:51,119 --> 00:17:53,919 Speaker 1: which is a great university but not quite as broad 310 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:56,800 Speaker 1: as Harvard. What did Harvard do that enabled it to 311 00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,240 Speaker 1: grow to the point where when people say I want 312 00:17:59,280 --> 00:18:01,360 Speaker 1: my smart child to go somewhere, they say, I want 313 00:18:01,359 --> 00:18:02,560 Speaker 1: my child to be able to go to Harvard. 314 00:18:03,000 --> 00:18:08,080 Speaker 2: Well, David, I actually think that the top research universities 315 00:18:08,200 --> 00:18:13,080 Speaker 2: in the US are all incredibly accomplished, and I don't 316 00:18:13,119 --> 00:18:17,880 Speaker 2: feel as though Harvard is so far ahead of any 317 00:18:17,880 --> 00:18:22,200 Speaker 2: other institution. We're stronger in some areas in Princeton, and 318 00:18:22,440 --> 00:18:24,919 Speaker 2: maybe not as strong as others, But the fact is 319 00:18:25,320 --> 00:18:29,520 Speaker 2: we're a very different institution from Princeton because Princeton has 320 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:34,680 Speaker 2: PhD programs, but they did not invest heavily in professional schools, 321 00:18:34,720 --> 00:18:37,399 Speaker 2: so they're covering a different part of the waterfront. But 322 00:18:37,440 --> 00:18:42,680 Speaker 2: I would say that we've been fortunate in a number 323 00:18:42,720 --> 00:18:46,960 Speaker 2: of ways, including the generosity of our alumni and friends 324 00:18:47,040 --> 00:18:49,919 Speaker 2: has helped us. That's been true for the other pre 325 00:18:50,000 --> 00:18:51,920 Speaker 2: eminent research universities as well. 326 00:18:52,000 --> 00:18:56,480 Speaker 1: Many members of Congress think that Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Stanford, 327 00:18:56,560 --> 00:18:59,800 Speaker 1: other major universities that are well known are too liberal. 328 00:19:00,119 --> 00:19:02,480 Speaker 1: How does Harvard address that, and how do you get 329 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,320 Speaker 1: a faculty that has more people that are not quote liberal? 330 00:19:05,560 --> 00:19:07,320 Speaker 1: And is it really unrealistic to do that? 331 00:19:08,440 --> 00:19:12,719 Speaker 2: I think that the core issue is really a question 332 00:19:13,560 --> 00:19:19,240 Speaker 2: are our students exposed to the full range of serious 333 00:19:19,359 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 2: views about important issues. Could be in science, it could 334 00:19:24,040 --> 00:19:30,400 Speaker 2: be in my field of economics, could be in political science, 335 00:19:30,760 --> 00:19:35,640 Speaker 2: in all kinds of areas, and there's a risk if 336 00:19:35,640 --> 00:19:39,600 Speaker 2: the faculty lean all in one direction politically, that they 337 00:19:39,640 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: won't be capable of presenting views other than their owns, 338 00:19:42,800 --> 00:19:47,359 Speaker 2: and therefore our students won't be exposed. Oftentimes, my professors 339 00:19:47,400 --> 00:19:51,080 Speaker 2: would not reveal what their personal views were. Sometimes they did, 340 00:19:51,520 --> 00:19:54,800 Speaker 2: but it was never with the idea that you would 341 00:19:54,840 --> 00:19:59,280 Speaker 2: say only certain views are correct about this issue. That's 342 00:19:59,320 --> 00:20:02,359 Speaker 2: the problem we have to solve. I think that to 343 00:20:02,400 --> 00:20:04,840 Speaker 2: fully address this, we do need a wider range of 344 00:20:04,920 --> 00:20:09,280 Speaker 2: views on campus. It's not just about liberal conservative, it's 345 00:20:09,280 --> 00:20:12,840 Speaker 2: on all kinds of dimensions. We need a diversity of views, 346 00:20:13,240 --> 00:20:16,960 Speaker 2: we need many different views, and we need to create 347 00:20:17,000 --> 00:20:22,240 Speaker 2: an environment in which our students can speak freely because actually, 348 00:20:22,280 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 2: for students, I would say, the most pernicious issue about 349 00:20:27,320 --> 00:20:30,160 Speaker 2: this fear that there's that the faculty are all from 350 00:20:30,160 --> 00:20:33,160 Speaker 2: one part of the political spectrum. The fear is that 351 00:20:33,640 --> 00:20:36,800 Speaker 2: the students who disagree can't express those views or they 352 00:20:36,840 --> 00:20:40,440 Speaker 2: will be ostracized in some way. We have to overcome that, 353 00:20:40,520 --> 00:20:41,920 Speaker 2: and I think we're making progress. 354 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,640 Speaker 1: What percentage of students who come to Harvard College are 355 00:20:44,720 --> 00:20:46,600 Speaker 1: on some kind of scholarship I have, you know, the 356 00:20:46,600 --> 00:20:49,560 Speaker 1: assumption might be that they all are from wealthy families 357 00:20:49,640 --> 00:20:52,080 Speaker 1: or most of them. What percentage actually on some kind 358 00:20:52,119 --> 00:20:52,760 Speaker 1: of scholarship. 359 00:20:52,880 --> 00:20:56,680 Speaker 2: It's on the order of sixty percent receive financial aid. 360 00:20:56,680 --> 00:21:01,200 Speaker 2: And I would add that students from family pollies that 361 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:05,600 Speaker 2: earn less than two hundred thousand dollars a year can 362 00:21:05,680 --> 00:21:07,720 Speaker 2: attend Harvard College tuition free. 363 00:21:07,880 --> 00:21:11,320 Speaker 1: Speaking of tuition, many people criticize the high tuitions of 364 00:21:11,560 --> 00:21:15,119 Speaker 1: private universities, in particular, saying that they're all very, very high, 365 00:21:15,200 --> 00:21:17,800 Speaker 1: beyond the means of most middle class families. 366 00:21:18,000 --> 00:21:19,520 Speaker 3: Why is tuition so high? 367 00:21:19,680 --> 00:21:24,040 Speaker 2: The cost of providing an education at the kinds of 368 00:21:24,560 --> 00:21:27,800 Speaker 2: universities that you've mentioned have gone up and up over 369 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 2: time in real terms. For many of our universities, that is, 370 00:21:32,800 --> 00:21:38,040 Speaker 2: inflation adjusted terms, the tuition has gone down and I'm 371 00:21:38,080 --> 00:21:42,080 Speaker 2: talking about the nominal tuition for the students who don't 372 00:21:42,080 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 2: receive any financial aid. When you take an account financial aid, 373 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:46,600 Speaker 2: it's gone down. 374 00:21:46,680 --> 00:21:48,959 Speaker 1: But the cost of educating one of these students that 375 00:21:49,000 --> 00:21:50,080 Speaker 1: you educate, is it. 376 00:21:50,200 --> 00:21:51,439 Speaker 3: Higher than the actual tuition? 377 00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:56,560 Speaker 1: Yes, And you think the American universities today are in 378 00:21:56,920 --> 00:22:00,679 Speaker 1: danger of not becoming as important to the or the 379 00:22:00,720 --> 00:22:03,919 Speaker 1: world as they were ten twenty years ago because of 380 00:22:04,400 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: challenges to the universities. We still think the university are 381 00:22:07,200 --> 00:22:10,040 Speaker 1: so strong that they can overcome some of the current 382 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:11,480 Speaker 1: challenges and criticisms. 383 00:22:12,160 --> 00:22:15,920 Speaker 2: I am optimistic about that. But I think is extremely 384 00:22:16,000 --> 00:22:21,720 Speaker 2: important is for Harvard and our peer institutions, for particularly 385 00:22:21,760 --> 00:22:28,520 Speaker 2: other research universities, to re establish trust in our institutions 386 00:22:28,680 --> 00:22:33,639 Speaker 2: and our mission because what we've accomplished really would not 387 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:39,239 Speaker 2: have been possible without this incredibly successful partnership with the 388 00:22:39,240 --> 00:22:42,760 Speaker 2: federal government, which has driven the research enterprise. 389 00:22:43,040 --> 00:22:45,960 Speaker 1: As I said before, So one final question I want 390 00:22:45,960 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: to ask you is I have a seven year old 391 00:22:49,680 --> 00:22:53,919 Speaker 1: granddaughter and she's very smart, and I'm just wondering is 392 00:22:53,920 --> 00:22:57,520 Speaker 1: there an early, early, early decision process that Harvard has 393 00:22:57,880 --> 00:23:01,200 Speaker 1: or would you consider starting one. I mean, she's very talented, 394 00:23:01,440 --> 00:23:04,560 Speaker 1: So would you consider early early decision for people of 395 00:23:04,640 --> 00:23:05,359 Speaker 1: that age or not? 396 00:23:05,480 --> 00:23:08,440 Speaker 2: Well, David, I have to ask you, how's her pitching arm? 397 00:23:09,880 --> 00:23:12,120 Speaker 1: It's better than some of the pictures that I have. There, 398 00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 1: you go, maybe she could be on the athletic teams. 399 00:23:15,440 --> 00:23:16,840 Speaker 1: But if you had to do it all over again, 400 00:23:17,000 --> 00:23:18,520 Speaker 1: when they asked you to be the president of Harvard, 401 00:23:18,520 --> 00:23:20,480 Speaker 1: would you have said yes or no? 402 00:23:20,680 --> 00:23:23,240 Speaker 2: I would have said yes with less hesitation. 403 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:26,960 Speaker 1: Thanks for listening to hear more of my interviews. You 404 00:23:27,000 --> 00:23:31,080 Speaker 1: can subscribe and download my podcast on Spotify, Apple, or 405 00:23:31,119 --> 00:23:31,960 Speaker 1: wherever you listen.