1 00:00:06,760 --> 00:00:13,600 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace, who doesn't love Google? Is 2 00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:18,360 Speaker 1: this movie filling the Blank? Okay for kids? Or Guinea 3 00:00:18,400 --> 00:00:24,919 Speaker 1: Pig fleece Liners too by? It could be anything, but 4 00:00:25,000 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 1: what about how to commit the Perfect Murder? I mean 5 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,400 Speaker 1: you see, Grace, this is Crime Stories. Thank you for 6 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,000 Speaker 1: being with us. To add insult to injury, there is 7 00:00:36,080 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: now a claim that an Alaska mother, a gorgeous young 8 00:00:40,440 --> 00:00:46,239 Speaker 1: mom actually uh googled how to commit the perfect murder 9 00:00:46,720 --> 00:00:52,839 Speaker 1: before the death of her two little children. Just a coincidence. 10 00:00:53,040 --> 00:00:57,279 Speaker 1: Joining me right now, Jennifer Sakowski. Jennifer joining us from 11 00:00:57,280 --> 00:01:00,920 Speaker 1: crime online dot Com as an investigative reporter. Jennifer, let's 12 00:01:00,920 --> 00:01:03,080 Speaker 1: take it from the top. What can you tell me? 13 00:01:03,160 --> 00:01:06,280 Speaker 1: Who is Stephanie la Fountain? Yes, this is the story 14 00:01:06,280 --> 00:01:10,720 Speaker 1: of Stephanie La Fountain And as you said, she she's 15 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,640 Speaker 1: a gorgeous twenty three year old woman. She is from Fairbanks, Alaska, 16 00:01:15,959 --> 00:01:18,560 Speaker 1: which is the second most populated area in the state, 17 00:01:18,959 --> 00:01:23,480 Speaker 1: with Anchorage being the first. It's a beautiful city one 18 00:01:23,560 --> 00:01:26,800 Speaker 1: night that people would dream of living in. Christine Rivers 19 00:01:26,800 --> 00:01:30,399 Speaker 1: and Lakes, gorgeous Mountaine. Okay, Jennifer, hold on, the more 20 00:01:30,440 --> 00:01:34,240 Speaker 1: I look at her photo of this mom, Stephanie La Fountain. 21 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:40,360 Speaker 1: She looks like a sitcom character. And I never had 22 00:01:40,360 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: time to watch this, but I've said, has been watching 23 00:01:43,240 --> 00:01:48,280 Speaker 1: that seventies show that's she looks like. Yeah, she looks 24 00:01:48,320 --> 00:01:55,400 Speaker 1: like a sitcom actress. Perfect skin, yeah, long, beautiful chestnut brown. 25 00:01:55,440 --> 00:01:59,200 Speaker 1: Here looks like the ambre has gone on at the tips. 26 00:02:00,520 --> 00:02:04,040 Speaker 1: I don't get it. Why is this woman? What? Why 27 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:06,480 Speaker 1: is she looking up? How do you commit the perfect murder? 28 00:02:06,640 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: And then a coincidence which I'm sure Robin Ficker, a 29 00:02:10,160 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 1: defense attorney out of Maryland, and Ashley Wilcot, judge and 30 00:02:13,360 --> 00:02:16,400 Speaker 1: lawyer will one the way in on the coincidence that 31 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:19,800 Speaker 1: she googles how to commit the perfect murder and then 32 00:02:20,000 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: woods her two children end up dead. But again, Jennifer, 33 00:02:23,520 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: I've jumped ahead. Go ahead, I'm going to go back 34 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:30,960 Speaker 1: about three years ago. In September two thousand fifteen, according 35 00:02:30,960 --> 00:02:34,959 Speaker 1: to the far Banks Daily News, miner Stephanie's first daughter, 36 00:02:35,360 --> 00:02:38,480 Speaker 1: a four month old baby girl who died after being 37 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,920 Speaker 1: found not breathing. Stephanie had called authorities for help, saying 38 00:02:42,919 --> 00:02:46,520 Speaker 1: the baby wasn't breathing, and this innocent baby girl died 39 00:02:46,560 --> 00:02:51,160 Speaker 1: the same day. However, who wait, how long ago was this? So? 40 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:54,040 Speaker 1: This was in September of two thousand fifteen. Guys, you 41 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: are hearing the voice of Crime Online dot com investigative 42 00:02:57,200 --> 00:03:02,000 Speaker 1: reporter Jennifer at Sakowski. Also with me, high profile defense 43 00:03:02,080 --> 00:03:06,959 Speaker 1: lawyer out of the Maryland jurisdiction Robin Thicker, Ash Willcott, 44 00:03:07,440 --> 00:03:11,680 Speaker 1: judge lawyer, founder a child crime watch dot com, psychiatrist 45 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 1: and author Dr Carol Lieberman, and forensics expert Karen Smith. 46 00:03:18,760 --> 00:03:21,960 Speaker 1: Robin Ficker, before we go one step further, did you 47 00:03:22,000 --> 00:03:24,800 Speaker 1: hear this actually starts a couple of years ago? Why 48 00:03:25,000 --> 00:03:27,840 Speaker 1: is it, Robin Ficker? Let's just say this is your clients, 49 00:03:27,880 --> 00:03:32,040 Speaker 1: Stephanie La Fountain, and wherever she goes, children drop like flies. 50 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: What a coincidence, Robin, Well, I think we've discovered a 51 00:03:35,560 --> 00:03:38,840 Speaker 1: way here to solve the crimes in America. You simply 52 00:03:38,880 --> 00:03:43,720 Speaker 1: go and see who is a hit upon this particular 53 00:03:43,800 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 1: website how to commit a murder, and you just follow 54 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:50,440 Speaker 1: up on every one of those hits, and you solved 55 00:03:50,440 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: the murders in America. I think that people are are 56 00:03:54,840 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: going through the web. They're looking at various websites that 57 00:03:59,040 --> 00:04:02,839 Speaker 1: have something novel or weird, and they go on these 58 00:04:02,880 --> 00:04:06,840 Speaker 1: websites and look, and it's just a coincidence that anything happens. Later, 59 00:04:07,320 --> 00:04:11,200 Speaker 1: this was a true coincidence. Coincidences happened. That's how we 60 00:04:11,280 --> 00:04:14,200 Speaker 1: got the word coincidence. Okay, so it's a coincidence that 61 00:04:14,240 --> 00:04:17,440 Speaker 1: we got the word coincidence. I don't see it that 62 00:04:17,480 --> 00:04:21,039 Speaker 1: way that one mother is connected to not one, but 63 00:04:21,200 --> 00:04:24,360 Speaker 1: two deaths. But you know what, let's analyze. So you're 64 00:04:24,360 --> 00:04:27,559 Speaker 1: saying a couple of years ago, her four month old 65 00:04:28,000 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: baby girl just wasn't breathing, is that correct? That is correct, 66 00:04:33,440 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 1: and her death was not ruled a hormfide. At the time, 67 00:04:37,120 --> 00:04:41,799 Speaker 1: investigators truly believed and thought that this was an isolated tragedy. 68 00:04:42,000 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 1: Jennifer Sikowski in the very first baby that's found, Dad, 69 00:04:46,440 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: what was the cause of death? The cause from death 70 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:53,040 Speaker 1: for the four month old who again was Stefanie. Uh, Well, 71 00:04:53,400 --> 00:04:54,960 Speaker 1: I was gonna get into that later, but I can 72 00:04:54,960 --> 00:04:58,680 Speaker 1: tell you she was Jephanie's incidence from a prior relationship. 73 00:04:59,440 --> 00:05:04,880 Speaker 1: M she The baby girl's death was officially ruled as undetermined, 74 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:09,760 Speaker 1: but showed consistencies with a supplication death police set Okay, 75 00:05:09,760 --> 00:05:11,840 Speaker 1: hold on just a moment to Karen Smith, I, renowned 76 00:05:11,839 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: forensic sex part How can that be, uh that you 77 00:05:16,600 --> 00:05:21,560 Speaker 1: confuse a smothering death with natural causes? Well, when you 78 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:23,919 Speaker 1: have a smothering death, you know, a lot of times 79 00:05:24,640 --> 00:05:29,839 Speaker 1: it's very difficult to determine an actual cause of death 80 00:05:29,960 --> 00:05:33,720 Speaker 1: unless you have, you know, significant brain damage or some 81 00:05:33,800 --> 00:05:36,360 Speaker 1: other physical evidence that goes along with it. A lot 82 00:05:36,440 --> 00:05:39,479 Speaker 1: of times this may be ruled ASSIDS, which is a 83 00:05:39,520 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: sudden infant death syndrome that doesn't have a particular cause 84 00:05:44,320 --> 00:05:46,680 Speaker 1: of death. And that may be where they leaned because 85 00:05:46,720 --> 00:05:49,279 Speaker 1: it was one infant um you know, it may have 86 00:05:49,320 --> 00:05:52,080 Speaker 1: been just looked at as a tragic death. Then you 87 00:05:52,080 --> 00:05:55,000 Speaker 1: have the second one that happened that caused law enforcement 88 00:05:55,040 --> 00:05:57,640 Speaker 1: to go, wait a second, let's look at the first 89 00:05:57,640 --> 00:06:01,800 Speaker 1: one again. Okay, hold on just a moment to Actual Wilcott, judge, lawyer, 90 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,960 Speaker 1: founder child crime watch dot com. I disagree, because when 91 00:06:06,000 --> 00:06:12,960 Speaker 1: you have a suffocation, you almost always have hemorrhage or burst. 92 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:17,520 Speaker 1: Particularate those are the tiny, tiny blood vessels in the 93 00:06:17,600 --> 00:06:21,560 Speaker 1: eyeballs and the eyes. Sometimes you can't see the hemorrhage 94 00:06:21,640 --> 00:06:25,080 Speaker 1: ng or the bursting with the naked eye, but you 95 00:06:25,200 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 1: can see it with an appropriate autopsy that comes from 96 00:06:29,680 --> 00:06:34,200 Speaker 1: lack of oxygen, those um blood vessels burst. Actually, and 97 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:37,560 Speaker 1: it's really easy to see an autopsy that's not a 98 00:06:37,640 --> 00:06:41,880 Speaker 1: SIDS death. SIDS does not include lack of oxygen. The 99 00:06:42,160 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: baby's heart just stops and the child dies. Suffocation is 100 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:48,800 Speaker 1: an entirely different things. Oh, I completely agree with you, 101 00:06:48,880 --> 00:06:51,040 Speaker 1: and you are correct that in an autopsy there are 102 00:06:51,080 --> 00:06:54,200 Speaker 1: different elements that they can see to determine which one. 103 00:06:54,520 --> 00:06:57,320 Speaker 1: Here's what I see all too often working with child 104 00:06:57,360 --> 00:07:03,400 Speaker 1: fatality review. Frequently, unfortunately, investigations stall out, meaning they think 105 00:07:03,440 --> 00:07:08,320 Speaker 1: it looks like SIDS, looks like, well, this baby stopped breathing. 106 00:07:08,360 --> 00:07:11,480 Speaker 1: That happens, and they don't necessarily take it the step 107 00:07:11,520 --> 00:07:13,760 Speaker 1: further to say, wait, we still need to see what 108 00:07:13,800 --> 00:07:16,640 Speaker 1: the cause of death was. Perhaps it wasn't said, so 109 00:07:17,120 --> 00:07:20,880 Speaker 1: unfortunately nationwide that happens where the autopsy is not done, 110 00:07:21,200 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: there's a belief that the parents credible that this was 111 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:27,600 Speaker 1: a horrible, horrible tragedy, which does happen with SIDS, right, 112 00:07:27,640 --> 00:07:30,760 Speaker 1: it is a real thing, and then they don't investigate further. Now, 113 00:07:30,800 --> 00:07:32,240 Speaker 1: I don't know if that's what happened in this case 114 00:07:32,360 --> 00:07:33,760 Speaker 1: or not, but I see it all the time. Well, 115 00:07:34,240 --> 00:07:37,239 Speaker 1: another thing that you just mentioned, Ashley Wilcott is dead 116 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:41,280 Speaker 1: on to Dr Carroll Laberman's psychiatrist and author of Lions 117 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:45,960 Speaker 1: and Tigers and Terrorists. Oh my, Dr Carroll, when you 118 00:07:46,080 --> 00:07:48,880 Speaker 1: have a child and front to the naked eye, the 119 00:07:48,960 --> 00:07:51,720 Speaker 1: child looks like it just simply quit breathing, and you've 120 00:07:51,760 --> 00:07:56,080 Speaker 1: got a loving mother calling nine one one, you know 121 00:07:56,240 --> 00:07:58,800 Speaker 1: what's not to believe? I I assume they just didn't 122 00:07:58,800 --> 00:08:02,040 Speaker 1: perform the full on, all topsy doctor Carol, because the 123 00:08:02,080 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 1: mom seems so loving, incredible. Yes, that can be, uh 124 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:09,360 Speaker 1: be very effective on the mother's part, because you know, 125 00:08:09,440 --> 00:08:12,240 Speaker 1: the police or the people investigating don't want to add 126 00:08:12,280 --> 00:08:15,280 Speaker 1: more tragedy by by blaming the mother. You know, it 127 00:08:15,320 --> 00:08:18,160 Speaker 1: seems like, oh, how can I how can I complame 128 00:08:18,240 --> 00:08:21,000 Speaker 1: her when she's so uh, this is such a tragedy 129 00:08:21,120 --> 00:08:25,240 Speaker 1: for her. But it's so interesting that this mother, um, 130 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:28,680 Speaker 1: obviously she you know. The the similarity in both cases 131 00:08:28,720 --> 00:08:32,559 Speaker 1: besides the children, how the children died is that she 132 00:08:32,640 --> 00:08:36,240 Speaker 1: didn't have a man in the picture. Um. The first 133 00:08:36,280 --> 00:08:38,880 Speaker 1: one it was a prior relationship, she wasn't married him. 134 00:08:38,920 --> 00:08:42,040 Speaker 1: The second one, her husband was in the military, and 135 00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:44,400 Speaker 1: he was deployed at the time when the when the 136 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:47,080 Speaker 1: child died, and then they got divorced. So it seems 137 00:08:47,160 --> 00:08:49,760 Speaker 1: like she wanted to be rid of this responsibility of 138 00:08:49,760 --> 00:08:52,200 Speaker 1: a baby and to go on and meet another guy. 139 00:08:52,400 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: You know, I don't understand why another guy is so 140 00:08:55,360 --> 00:09:00,280 Speaker 1: often the issue. Um, take a listen to this. Who 141 00:09:00,360 --> 00:09:03,120 Speaker 1: we know is this is just an unmatchable tragedy. You know, 142 00:09:03,200 --> 00:09:05,959 Speaker 1: we have to do infants from two babies that were 143 00:09:06,040 --> 00:09:09,680 Speaker 1: killed by their mother. How do we how do we 144 00:09:09,679 --> 00:09:11,840 Speaker 1: even imagine that? How do we as a justice system, 145 00:09:11,880 --> 00:09:14,160 Speaker 1: how do we you know, how do we make this right? 146 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:17,000 Speaker 1: And unfortunately there's just nothing we can do to make 147 00:09:17,000 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: this right, to make it better. But we know that 148 00:09:19,800 --> 00:09:22,760 Speaker 1: we'll do what we can within the justice system to 149 00:09:22,920 --> 00:09:33,200 Speaker 1: provide some type of closure and some type of piece warning. 150 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:39,080 Speaker 1: Property protected by electric fence, sharks sited in water. There 151 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:40,800 Speaker 1: are a lot of warnings you don't want to miss 152 00:09:41,240 --> 00:09:44,880 Speaker 1: bridge out, especially when it comes to your identity and 153 00:09:44,920 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 1: the personal information on your devices. 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Does that 171 00:10:48,360 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: mean there never was an investigation when the first baby died? 172 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace this his crime stories. Thank you for 173 00:10:55,360 --> 00:10:58,480 Speaker 1: being with us with me. Karen Smith, Dr. Carol Lieberman, 174 00:10:58,840 --> 00:11:03,040 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcot, Robin Ficker, and Jennifer at Szikowski. To you, 175 00:11:03,280 --> 00:11:07,200 Speaker 1: Jennifer sounds like no one really looked into the first 176 00:11:07,480 --> 00:11:10,520 Speaker 1: death where the little baby, just a four month old 177 00:11:10,559 --> 00:11:14,600 Speaker 1: infant girl was found not breathing. That death was not 178 00:11:14,960 --> 00:11:19,640 Speaker 1: ruled a homicide. But then fast forward twenty four months, 179 00:11:19,760 --> 00:11:25,360 Speaker 1: another dead baby girl found in the care of mommy. 180 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,680 Speaker 1: What happened the second time around her? Right, so, about 181 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:34,319 Speaker 1: two years later, authorities received from Stephanie saying that her 182 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:39,720 Speaker 1: thirteen month old child, also an innocent baby girl, wasn't breathing. 183 00:11:40,040 --> 00:11:43,560 Speaker 1: Fast forward to last November, which is about two years 184 00:11:43,640 --> 00:11:48,240 Speaker 1: after her first baby died. One second authorities received nine 185 00:11:48,280 --> 00:11:51,920 Speaker 1: one one called from Stephanie saying that her thirteen month 186 00:11:51,960 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: old child, also an innocent baby girl, was not breathing. 187 00:11:57,200 --> 00:12:01,439 Speaker 1: In addition to daily she also called family members of 188 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,240 Speaker 1: her ex husbands, who, by the way, was not the 189 00:12:04,360 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 1: father of her first child, and neither men had been 190 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:12,559 Speaker 1: identified by police. According to online records. She divorced the 191 00:12:12,679 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 1: father of her second child in February, which is about 192 00:12:16,200 --> 00:12:20,520 Speaker 1: three months after the second baby died. Her ex husband 193 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: was in the military and he was away serving our 194 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:27,439 Speaker 1: country in Iraq. Police say that his family members arrived, 195 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:30,760 Speaker 1: so they must have had a good relationship with Stephanie. 196 00:12:30,840 --> 00:12:34,640 Speaker 1: Phil and they were performing CPR on the baby when 197 00:12:34,679 --> 00:12:39,640 Speaker 1: officially thrived. Unfortunately, though, this wasn't enough. And the toddler 198 00:12:40,679 --> 00:12:44,760 Speaker 1: who was performing CPR on the baby family, her ex 199 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: husband's family members, her ex husband who was deployed in 200 00:12:48,760 --> 00:12:53,920 Speaker 1: northern Iraq, his family members. Alright, okay, So unfortunately, like 201 00:12:54,000 --> 00:12:58,200 Speaker 1: I said, this wasn't enough. That this innocent toddler died 202 00:12:58,240 --> 00:13:01,680 Speaker 1: at a local hospital four days later. So of course, 203 00:13:01,880 --> 00:13:04,280 Speaker 1: you know, this is when the red flags went up 204 00:13:04,320 --> 00:13:08,439 Speaker 1: for detectives, because now they had two babies dead and 205 00:13:08,640 --> 00:13:11,719 Speaker 1: only about a two year time frame who appeared to 206 00:13:11,800 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 1: die in the scene manner. And when they began investigating 207 00:13:15,679 --> 00:13:19,199 Speaker 1: the toddler's death, the two thousand and fifteen case of 208 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: the infants depth was reopened. The investigation was kept on 209 00:13:23,960 --> 00:13:28,120 Speaker 1: the downlall until you know, just recently days ago, in 210 00:13:28,360 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: order not to hinder their work. And you know, well, wait, anute, 211 00:13:32,640 --> 00:13:36,679 Speaker 1: this is what I don't understand, Robin Ficker, a renowned 212 00:13:36,720 --> 00:13:40,199 Speaker 1: defense attorney, joining me out of the Maryland jurisdiction. What 213 00:13:40,360 --> 00:13:43,760 Speaker 1: I don't understand is that when the four month old 214 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:48,960 Speaker 1: baby girl died and two thousand fifteen reportedly found not breathing, 215 00:13:49,600 --> 00:13:54,040 Speaker 1: that baby's death was not rolled a homicide, but it was. 216 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:59,079 Speaker 1: Her cause of death was consistent with being smothered. I 217 00:13:59,440 --> 00:14:03,679 Speaker 1: don't under him because if they had accurately and appropriately 218 00:14:03,800 --> 00:14:08,440 Speaker 1: investigated that death, we wouldn't have a dead nineteen month 219 00:14:08,559 --> 00:14:13,359 Speaker 1: old baby girl, all right. So the failure to investigate 220 00:14:13,440 --> 00:14:19,080 Speaker 1: and prosecute the first infant murder in fanticide has led 221 00:14:19,160 --> 00:14:23,520 Speaker 1: to another dead child. And who knows what abuse the 222 00:14:23,640 --> 00:14:27,160 Speaker 1: child suffered in her short nineteen months at the hands 223 00:14:27,280 --> 00:14:32,200 Speaker 1: of mommy. So what happened, Robin Ficker? Well, mothers pay 224 00:14:32,320 --> 00:14:35,440 Speaker 1: us on the same genes, the same physical makeup to 225 00:14:35,600 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 1: their various children. Obviously the first child had a physical 226 00:14:39,920 --> 00:14:45,080 Speaker 1: defunt because the suddenly into death ingram, and the same 227 00:14:45,240 --> 00:14:48,160 Speaker 1: defect was in a and the children. You have to 228 00:14:48,280 --> 00:14:51,440 Speaker 1: give the presumption of innocence to mothers that nurture bear 229 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:54,480 Speaker 1: their children for nine months and then nurture that. They 230 00:14:54,600 --> 00:14:58,400 Speaker 1: don't kill children generally, but physical defects are passed on 231 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:03,200 Speaker 1: to too the mother's various children by the mother's the 232 00:15:03,320 --> 00:15:08,520 Speaker 1: same mother here, random children. They had the same genes 233 00:15:08,600 --> 00:15:13,080 Speaker 1: from the same mother, the same physical problems. Well, okay, 234 00:15:13,240 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 1: if you're telling me that the two dead babies inherited 235 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:22,080 Speaker 1: some type of defective gene from mommy. Why is it 236 00:15:22,240 --> 00:15:25,960 Speaker 1: asked you, Wilcott, Mommy is alive and well, okay, but 237 00:15:26,120 --> 00:15:28,760 Speaker 1: the babies are dead. I don't even know what gene 238 00:15:29,080 --> 00:15:32,480 Speaker 1: he could possibly be talking about. What the gene where 239 00:15:32,520 --> 00:15:35,480 Speaker 1: you end up your mom strangles your dad that gene? Okay, 240 00:15:35,560 --> 00:15:38,600 Speaker 1: So let's just discuss first of all, Yes, absolutely there 241 00:15:38,640 --> 00:15:42,360 Speaker 1: are genetic reasons. Unfortunately, the children do die. We know that. 242 00:15:42,720 --> 00:15:45,640 Speaker 1: In this particular case. There's why are you even be 243 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:50,680 Speaker 1: talking about a genetic problem? They were smothered exactly from 244 00:15:50,760 --> 00:15:53,240 Speaker 1: the That's my point in this case. Yes, it does 245 00:15:53,320 --> 00:15:56,760 Speaker 1: happen sometimes, but not in this case. There's no absolutely 246 00:15:56,840 --> 00:15:59,160 Speaker 1: no evidence at all, there was no genetic defect. She 247 00:15:59,280 --> 00:16:01,240 Speaker 1: has killed both to these children. And I have to 248 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: say this, Nancy. So I've seen cases again where it's 249 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:07,400 Speaker 1: a drughouse and a parent who's on drugs, clearly on drugs, 250 00:16:07,520 --> 00:16:11,360 Speaker 1: rolls over suffocates a baby and guess what, there's no investigation, 251 00:16:11,800 --> 00:16:13,920 Speaker 1: nothing is followed up with that, and they say, oh, 252 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 1: the baby just died. The baby just didn't die. These 253 00:16:17,120 --> 00:16:19,920 Speaker 1: two children just didn't die. The mother killed both of 254 00:16:20,000 --> 00:16:23,200 Speaker 1: these children, weigh in Dr Carol Laberman. Well, yes, there 255 00:16:23,240 --> 00:16:27,200 Speaker 1: are reports that show that there was no physical reason 256 00:16:27,280 --> 00:16:30,640 Speaker 1: the babies were healthy. Um, and so you know that 257 00:16:30,640 --> 00:16:34,640 Speaker 1: that doesn't that doesn't fly in this case. And you know, 258 00:16:34,720 --> 00:16:38,200 Speaker 1: it's interesting because the mother saw that it worked with 259 00:16:38,320 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: the first baby, she got away with it, and so 260 00:16:40,800 --> 00:16:42,880 Speaker 1: then when the same when she decided that the second 261 00:16:42,960 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: baby was too much of a burden for her too, 262 00:16:45,240 --> 00:16:47,360 Speaker 1: so she tried the same thing again. You mean they 263 00:16:47,400 --> 00:16:51,680 Speaker 1: were healthy up unto this point. Yes, yes, but there 264 00:16:51,720 --> 00:16:55,920 Speaker 1: was no typical reason. Yeah, you're absolutely right, there was 265 00:16:56,080 --> 00:17:00,280 Speaker 1: no physical reason. Um. This is what the Fairbanks Least 266 00:17:00,400 --> 00:17:04,960 Speaker 1: Chief Eric Jews said. Just take ten seconds and think 267 00:17:05,640 --> 00:17:09,680 Speaker 1: about a mother killing both her children over two years, 268 00:17:09,760 --> 00:17:13,720 Speaker 1: completely isolated events, and what that means and what what 269 00:17:13,960 --> 00:17:17,280 Speaker 1: happens sometimes in our community. Uh, and sometimes just the 270 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:21,960 Speaker 1: evil that exists that's out there. Just take ten seconds 271 00:17:22,440 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: and think about a mother killing both her children over 272 00:17:27,080 --> 00:17:33,240 Speaker 1: two years and completely isolated events. Okay, first baby killed 273 00:17:33,640 --> 00:17:37,240 Speaker 1: in two thousand fifteen, the second baby killed in the 274 00:17:37,359 --> 00:17:40,720 Speaker 1: last few months, he says, And what that means and 275 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,520 Speaker 1: what happens sometimes in our community, and think about that 276 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:53,920 Speaker 1: sometimes evil exists that is out there now. According to 277 00:17:53,960 --> 00:17:57,360 Speaker 1: Anchorage Daily News, Fountain call nine one one and two 278 00:17:57,400 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: thousand seventeen. The end of two thousand seventeen, the Fountain 279 00:18:01,119 --> 00:18:05,560 Speaker 1: called nine one one claiming her thirteen month old daughter 280 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:09,920 Speaker 1: wasn't breathing, called her husband's family. They rushed to the 281 00:18:10,000 --> 00:18:13,280 Speaker 1: home and started CPR. The child was rushed to the hospital, 282 00:18:13,440 --> 00:18:18,040 Speaker 1: air lifted to another hospital. She died four days later. 283 00:18:18,840 --> 00:18:22,919 Speaker 1: I wonder what abuse this child had endured in her 284 00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:26,920 Speaker 1: short life, because it's my experience to Ashley Wilcott, Atlanta 285 00:18:27,040 --> 00:18:30,200 Speaker 1: judge and lawyer and found her a child to crime 286 00:18:30,240 --> 00:18:35,440 Speaker 1: watch dot com, Ashley, you don't just suddenly graduate to murder, 287 00:18:36,000 --> 00:18:39,120 Speaker 1: you lead up to it. I guarantee you that these 288 00:18:39,240 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 1: children had been abused during their short lives before they 289 00:18:42,440 --> 00:18:45,040 Speaker 1: were murdered. Oh, I absolutely agree. And if you don't 290 00:18:45,119 --> 00:18:47,760 Speaker 1: want children, if a parent doesn't want children and is 291 00:18:47,760 --> 00:18:50,280 Speaker 1: going to plan the murder, they're going to hurt the children, 292 00:18:50,320 --> 00:18:53,080 Speaker 1: abuse the children, neglect the children all through the children's 293 00:18:53,119 --> 00:18:54,720 Speaker 1: life because they don't want him in the first place. 294 00:18:54,960 --> 00:18:57,480 Speaker 1: So I agree with you. This was not a first instance. 295 00:18:57,720 --> 00:18:59,720 Speaker 1: Who knows what these two children have gone through at 296 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:01,640 Speaker 1: the hand to the mother and suffer. Take a listen 297 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 1: to this. There's the work you see and there's the 298 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:06,560 Speaker 1: work you don't see. And this is a prime example 299 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:10,320 Speaker 1: of the work that you don't see. Our detectives have 300 00:19:10,400 --> 00:19:12,720 Speaker 1: been working this case. Averrey Thompson has been working this 301 00:19:12,840 --> 00:19:16,560 Speaker 1: case for nine months, thousands of hours, and we've estimated 302 00:19:16,640 --> 00:19:19,080 Speaker 1: that if we printed this report out, it would be 303 00:19:19,160 --> 00:19:21,640 Speaker 1: over a hundred thousand pages. That's the amount of work 304 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: that goes into a case like this, Then no one sees, 305 00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:28,760 Speaker 1: and then we don't talk about and so um, you know, 306 00:19:29,160 --> 00:19:33,680 Speaker 1: it is just incredible, and so the amount of work, 307 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:39,160 Speaker 1: the excellence of the investigation. The entire city of Fairbanks 308 00:19:39,240 --> 00:19:43,240 Speaker 1: just owes our detectives a big round of things. We've 309 00:19:43,359 --> 00:19:46,200 Speaker 1: estimated that if we printed this report out, it would 310 00:19:46,200 --> 00:19:48,440 Speaker 1: be over a hundred thousand pages. That's the amount of 311 00:19:48,480 --> 00:19:50,480 Speaker 1: work that goes into a case like this. Then no 312 00:19:50,560 --> 00:19:53,600 Speaker 1: one sees, and then we don't talk about. Two babies dead, 313 00:19:54,080 --> 00:19:57,760 Speaker 1: one four months one thirteen months old, both baby girls, 314 00:19:58,000 --> 00:20:01,800 Speaker 1: and quite the coincidence there, mother Stephanie la Fountain, always 315 00:20:01,840 --> 00:20:05,120 Speaker 1: seems to be hovering around when the babies are found dead. 316 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:08,080 Speaker 1: In fact, she's the one that raises the alarm, but 317 00:20:08,240 --> 00:20:13,320 Speaker 1: then comes the investigation. Cops only think to investigate when 318 00:20:13,359 --> 00:20:16,159 Speaker 1: there's a second dead body. I guess because it's a baby. 319 00:20:16,320 --> 00:20:19,639 Speaker 1: It it just doesn't matter. It just doesn't warrant a 320 00:20:19,720 --> 00:20:24,240 Speaker 1: homicide investigation, even though in the first death all the 321 00:20:24,359 --> 00:20:28,960 Speaker 1: signs were there in autopsy of suffocation death and that 322 00:20:29,119 --> 00:20:33,399 Speaker 1: meant nothing to anybody in that jurisdiction. But finally we 323 00:20:33,600 --> 00:20:38,840 Speaker 1: learn that police look at Mommy's computer and there they 324 00:20:39,000 --> 00:20:42,840 Speaker 1: find search terms like this quote how to commit the 325 00:20:42,920 --> 00:20:48,720 Speaker 1: perfect murder quote, ways to suffocate quote, ways to kill 326 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:54,560 Speaker 1: human with no proof quote best ways to suffocate. Quote 327 00:20:54,960 --> 00:20:59,040 Speaker 1: sixteen steps to kill someone and not get caught quote 328 00:20:59,440 --> 00:21:05,680 Speaker 1: Ken drew Owning show in an autopsy report, quote drowning 329 00:21:05,840 --> 00:21:12,800 Speaker 1: and forensics and quote suffocating and smothering. Now, if that 330 00:21:13,200 --> 00:21:18,600 Speaker 1: is not a smoking gun. To Karen Smith, forensics expert, 331 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: I don't know what is, Karen. How do authorities, police, 332 00:21:23,000 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: FBI go about searching your computer. Let's just say you 333 00:21:27,440 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 1: deleted it all. How do they find it? It's not deleted. Uh, 334 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,440 Speaker 1: they have data mining tools that can go in and 335 00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:37,560 Speaker 1: find the cash that everybody has on their computer. Frankly, 336 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:40,440 Speaker 1: you can delete everything, and law enforcement has ways of 337 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:42,719 Speaker 1: finding it. We can dig deep and pro deeply into 338 00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,480 Speaker 1: your computer and find exactly the search engines that you 339 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,639 Speaker 1: were using when you searched it, how you searched it, 340 00:21:48,760 --> 00:21:51,560 Speaker 1: and how deep you went into each each website. Uh. 341 00:21:51,720 --> 00:21:55,520 Speaker 1: It's really mind boggling to me hearing what you've said 342 00:21:55,680 --> 00:21:58,320 Speaker 1: at the first investigation of the four month old that 343 00:21:58,440 --> 00:22:00,639 Speaker 1: all the signs were there of suffocation and no law 344 00:22:00,760 --> 00:22:04,159 Speaker 1: enforcement followed up on that. That's mind boggling to me 345 00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:07,199 Speaker 1: because in my experience, if you have a dead infant 346 00:22:07,320 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: like that, you know you're going to do a full lautopsy. 347 00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,080 Speaker 1: You're going to do a full investigation. Now, it is 348 00:22:13,520 --> 00:22:15,680 Speaker 1: common for law enforcement to give the benefit of the 349 00:22:15,760 --> 00:22:18,399 Speaker 1: doubt to a grieving mother. That's not unusual. What is 350 00:22:18,480 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: unusual is if you have autopsy findings that come back 351 00:22:21,240 --> 00:22:25,119 Speaker 1: in contradiction to that you need to follow up. So 352 00:22:25,359 --> 00:22:28,600 Speaker 1: between that and the search engine I am just baffled 353 00:22:28,800 --> 00:22:32,720 Speaker 1: as to why the first infant's death wasn't looked into further. 354 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:35,480 Speaker 1: I want to go out now to Dr Carol Lieberman's 355 00:22:35,480 --> 00:22:39,920 Speaker 1: psychiatrist and author of Lions and Tigers and Terrorists. Oh my, 356 00:22:41,000 --> 00:22:45,920 Speaker 1: Dr Carol, clearly police not police, but the coroner was 357 00:22:46,040 --> 00:22:50,080 Speaker 1: not convinced, even though the signs indicated the first baby 358 00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,760 Speaker 1: died of lack of oxygen to the Brian, which is suffocation. 359 00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 1: If they had bothered to look at the eyeballs, they 360 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:01,560 Speaker 1: would have realized the child had been aivocated. It's I'm 361 00:23:01,640 --> 00:23:03,080 Speaker 1: just a j D. I'm not an m D, and 362 00:23:03,119 --> 00:23:06,400 Speaker 1: I can tell you that much. But here the smoking 363 00:23:06,440 --> 00:23:09,320 Speaker 1: gun in my mind is how mommy just imagine the 364 00:23:09,440 --> 00:23:13,000 Speaker 1: baby's in the next room asleep, and Mommy's hunched over Google. 365 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,480 Speaker 1: You know, I can just see the iPad glowing in 366 00:23:16,560 --> 00:23:20,879 Speaker 1: the dark, looking up best ways to suffocate, sixteen steps 367 00:23:20,920 --> 00:23:23,720 Speaker 1: to kill someone and not get caught. You know what, 368 00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:26,480 Speaker 1: Dr Carol, When I do something that I know is wrong, 369 00:23:26,520 --> 00:23:27,920 Speaker 1: I'm sure to do plenty that I don't even know 370 00:23:28,119 --> 00:23:31,480 Speaker 1: is wrong. Every day it makes me feel hot all over. 371 00:23:31,960 --> 00:23:35,240 Speaker 1: I feel hot. I wake up in the night feeling hot. 372 00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,399 Speaker 1: I mean, like really hot. It's like my skins on fire. 373 00:23:40,800 --> 00:23:43,480 Speaker 1: I don't feel like eating. I feel bad. I think 374 00:23:43,520 --> 00:23:47,920 Speaker 1: about it. What I did? You know how bad it 375 00:23:48,240 --> 00:23:53,080 Speaker 1: was that I don't I can't even imagine sitting there 376 00:23:53,520 --> 00:23:57,240 Speaker 1: in the dark hunched over my iPad looking up sixteen 377 00:23:57,280 --> 00:24:00,879 Speaker 1: steps to kill someone and not get caught. How do 378 00:24:00,960 --> 00:24:03,720 Speaker 1: you do that? Well, she obviously doesn't have the same 379 00:24:04,119 --> 00:24:06,760 Speaker 1: sense of ethics and what's right and wrong as you do. 380 00:24:07,000 --> 00:24:09,879 Speaker 1: But you know, she also must not watch a lot 381 00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:12,600 Speaker 1: of crime shows on TV, or even the news for 382 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:14,600 Speaker 1: that matter. I mean, you kind of have to be 383 00:24:14,680 --> 00:24:17,720 Speaker 1: under a rock to not realize that the police or 384 00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,760 Speaker 1: investigators can find what's on your computer. I mean, there 385 00:24:21,800 --> 00:24:24,440 Speaker 1: have been so many stories, so many cases where that 386 00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:27,679 Speaker 1: is what implicated the person who killed the other persons, 387 00:24:27,760 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: And she obviously didn't know that or didn't care about that. 388 00:24:31,760 --> 00:24:34,000 Speaker 1: She was just intent on somehow. She thought she just 389 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:36,359 Speaker 1: wasn't going to get caught because because she didn't get 390 00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:38,440 Speaker 1: caught the first time, so she felt like she was 391 00:24:38,520 --> 00:24:42,800 Speaker 1: home free with me. Jennifer Sakowski investigative journalists with crime 392 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: online dot Com, where you can't find this story as 393 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:49,120 Speaker 1: well as all other breaking crime and justice and use Jennifer. 394 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:54,800 Speaker 1: They had investigated the first baby's death, would they have 395 00:24:54,920 --> 00:24:58,480 Speaker 1: found the same Google searches for the first baby as well? 396 00:24:59,000 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: And I guess, going to your guest Karen, just curious, 397 00:25:04,080 --> 00:25:06,800 Speaker 1: would they be able to go that far back and 398 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 1: look at the Google searches from the first baby's death 399 00:25:11,040 --> 00:25:15,520 Speaker 1: in two thousand or is that far too long? Yes, 400 00:25:15,920 --> 00:25:20,360 Speaker 1: you can go back and mind the computer practically as 401 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:23,359 Speaker 1: far back as as long as you've had it. You 402 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 1: get the hard drive of the computer, you search the memory. 403 00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,560 Speaker 1: Uh so much is also stored in the cloud. But 404 00:25:31,720 --> 00:25:37,119 Speaker 1: long story short, I've stupidly given the answer to so 405 00:25:37,240 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: many people. If you want to get something off your computer, 406 00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:41,800 Speaker 1: you might as well just go put it in the 407 00:25:41,920 --> 00:25:45,600 Speaker 1: driveway and drive over it several times, or beat it 408 00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,760 Speaker 1: with a hammer or a shovel, because as long as 409 00:25:50,840 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 1: that hard drive exists, you can look back, really in perpetuity, 410 00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,320 Speaker 1: almost as long as you've had the computer, you can 411 00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:03,719 Speaker 1: go back and search. So I'm wondering did they searched 412 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:07,080 Speaker 1: in another issue. I'm glad you brought that up, Jennifer Sikowski, 413 00:26:07,720 --> 00:26:12,359 Speaker 1: Ashley Wilcott, did you know that the timing also is 414 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:16,560 Speaker 1: very critical because when they did that search and they 415 00:26:16,680 --> 00:26:21,840 Speaker 1: found um how to commit the perfect murder, ways to suffocate, 416 00:26:21,960 --> 00:26:25,960 Speaker 1: ways to kill human with no proof, the nine one 417 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:28,719 Speaker 1: one call was about an hour after some of these 418 00:26:28,760 --> 00:26:34,760 Speaker 1: Google searches, So clearly she was, in my mind doing 419 00:26:34,800 --> 00:26:37,800 Speaker 1: the search. Then she suffocated the baby based on what 420 00:26:37,960 --> 00:26:40,560 Speaker 1: she found, and then she called nine one one based 421 00:26:40,640 --> 00:26:43,520 Speaker 1: on the timing. I mean, and answer to Jennifer Skowski's question, 422 00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:45,840 Speaker 1: not only can you find the search, you can find 423 00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:48,919 Speaker 1: the time and the date of the search. And thank goodness, 424 00:26:48,960 --> 00:26:51,520 Speaker 1: because that's exactly what the prosecution is going to use, 425 00:26:51,560 --> 00:26:53,840 Speaker 1: as you well know, to prove that it was premeditated, 426 00:26:53,880 --> 00:26:56,240 Speaker 1: which it was in this case, so we can actually 427 00:26:56,320 --> 00:26:59,359 Speaker 1: get a conviction because the other piece of that, Nancy, 428 00:26:59,480 --> 00:27:02,679 Speaker 1: is that so important to remembers. I don't believe in coincidence. 429 00:27:02,720 --> 00:27:05,239 Speaker 1: I don't believe somebody's gonna google how to murder an 430 00:27:05,240 --> 00:27:08,119 Speaker 1: infant with no you know, no symptoms, or how to 431 00:27:08,200 --> 00:27:10,760 Speaker 1: get away with murder. I don't believe that people google 432 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,800 Speaker 1: that just because they have a weird sense of oh 433 00:27:12,920 --> 00:27:15,120 Speaker 1: I want to hear about this and kind of quirky. 434 00:27:15,359 --> 00:27:17,000 Speaker 1: I believe you only do that if you really have 435 00:27:17,119 --> 00:27:19,879 Speaker 1: an intent, So that goes to prove her intent and 436 00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:24,359 Speaker 1: pre premeditation of this murder. To you, Robin Ficker, I 437 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,520 Speaker 1: can't wait to hear this. Have you ever considered a 438 00:27:27,720 --> 00:27:32,000 Speaker 1: career as a fiction writer? I want to hear how 439 00:27:32,119 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: you explain for your client that she's looking up how 440 00:27:36,680 --> 00:27:39,719 Speaker 1: to commit the perfect murder, ways to suffocate, does drowning 441 00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:44,640 Speaker 1: showing an autopsy. And one hour later after these Google searches, 442 00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:47,000 Speaker 1: she calls nine one one and her baby's dad. He 443 00:27:47,359 --> 00:27:50,920 Speaker 1: was trying to figure out why her child was in 444 00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:54,480 Speaker 1: the state it was. And she's not a lawyer, she's 445 00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:58,840 Speaker 1: not as psychiatrist or an expert. She's just a late person. 446 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,919 Speaker 1: And she thought abe she could give some hints from 447 00:28:02,080 --> 00:28:05,320 Speaker 1: various websites. She didn't go on M D d M 448 00:28:06,000 --> 00:28:09,200 Speaker 1: on the web md, but she went on this particular site, 449 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:11,919 Speaker 1: figuring maybe she could get some hints as the wired 450 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:15,000 Speaker 1: child with in such a state. It's just going on 451 00:28:15,119 --> 00:28:18,160 Speaker 1: the internet, celebrating the internet as I do every day, 452 00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 1: going on site interesting sites. It doesn't mean that the 453 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,360 Speaker 1: necessarily is a connection between her actions and what you're 454 00:28:26,440 --> 00:28:29,440 Speaker 1: looking at all. She was maybe she was trying to 455 00:28:29,520 --> 00:28:33,679 Speaker 1: figure out what happened here. We have a family, of course, 456 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: of a baby that has suffered an obscurity, uh in 457 00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:40,800 Speaker 1: silence that no one knew. They were all alone in this, 458 00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: in this whole process, and no one, no one knew 459 00:28:44,920 --> 00:28:47,000 Speaker 1: about it and that and that's a tough situation to 460 00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:50,400 Speaker 1: be in. A young mother now accused of murdering two 461 00:28:50,960 --> 00:28:54,560 Speaker 1: infant girls, a four month old and then one year 462 00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 1: later a nineteen month old baby girl. Joining me Karen Smith. Dr. 463 00:28:59,720 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: Carroll Lieberman, UH, trial judge, lawyer and founder child Crime 464 00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:07,680 Speaker 1: watch dot Com. Ashley Wilcott, renowned defense attorney out of Maryland, 465 00:29:07,800 --> 00:29:12,680 Speaker 1: Robin Ficker, and Crime online dot Com investigator reporter Jennifer Sakowski. Jennifer, 466 00:29:13,200 --> 00:29:16,800 Speaker 1: where does it stand right now? Uh? Stephanie La Fountain 467 00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: now charged in the murders of two children. What are 468 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 1: the charges against her? So? Stephanie was arrested in charge 469 00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,360 Speaker 1: with one cone of first degree murder in two counts 470 00:29:28,480 --> 00:29:31,760 Speaker 1: of second degree murder. She's being held at the Fairbanks 471 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,360 Speaker 1: Correctional Center. She was reigned in courts with bail set 472 00:29:35,480 --> 00:29:38,560 Speaker 1: at two million dollars. We know that Stephanie La Fountain, 473 00:29:38,920 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 1: the mom in this case, will not ever faced the 474 00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:46,719 Speaker 1: death penalty, as Alaska abolished the death penalty. They've never 475 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,320 Speaker 1: had the death penalty, so that's not an issue. I'm curious, 476 00:29:50,440 --> 00:29:54,520 Speaker 1: Robin Ficker, if she is convicted in that jurisdiction. What 477 00:29:54,760 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: sentence do you think she's looking at. Well, if she's convicted, 478 00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,840 Speaker 1: she was looking at a law I'm sentenced unfortunately. I mean, 479 00:30:01,920 --> 00:30:05,840 Speaker 1: that's the reality of it. We we want to discourage 480 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:10,040 Speaker 1: people killing their children, and it's a sad thing. But 481 00:30:10,160 --> 00:30:14,600 Speaker 1: I don't think jury is going to convict here because, yes, 482 00:30:15,320 --> 00:30:19,479 Speaker 1: coincidence has happened some some mothers have children that are 483 00:30:19,520 --> 00:30:22,760 Speaker 1: born with six toes. There was a physical defect in 484 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:24,920 Speaker 1: this child, and I think we need to get a 485 00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:30,560 Speaker 1: an expert to really analyze these children. And you know, 486 00:30:30,640 --> 00:30:33,440 Speaker 1: another question, of course, I'm completely ignoring what Figure said 487 00:30:33,440 --> 00:30:35,640 Speaker 1: about a child with six toes. I don't know where 488 00:30:35,720 --> 00:30:38,120 Speaker 1: this comes from with thicker, but I guess figure, if 489 00:30:38,160 --> 00:30:40,600 Speaker 1: I were charged with double murder, i'd hire you, uh 490 00:30:40,720 --> 00:30:46,160 Speaker 1: to Dr Carol Lieberman. Another issue is that the men 491 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,840 Speaker 1: involved in this scenario. We know that on one occasion 492 00:30:50,280 --> 00:30:55,800 Speaker 1: she had just been divorced. Do mothers lash out on 493 00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:58,480 Speaker 1: the children when they're angry at the dad and what 494 00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,760 Speaker 1: is that phenomena? Well, um, you know, we sort of 495 00:31:01,880 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: don't know uh so much about the first father, just 496 00:31:05,280 --> 00:31:08,000 Speaker 1: that that was a prior relationship. But um, but with 497 00:31:08,120 --> 00:31:11,080 Speaker 1: the second one he was in, he was deployed, he 498 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:13,960 Speaker 1: was not there. They got divorced after. But you know, 499 00:31:14,160 --> 00:31:16,560 Speaker 1: a defense attorney will most likely try to say that 500 00:31:16,680 --> 00:31:19,960 Speaker 1: this was postpartum depression. That's going to be her defense. 501 00:31:20,040 --> 00:31:22,440 Speaker 1: I mean, if I was the expert witness called in, 502 00:31:22,640 --> 00:31:26,440 Speaker 1: I would try to find evidence of her having postpartum depression. 503 00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:28,800 Speaker 1: And that seems like that would be the most uh 504 00:31:29,160 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: likely or or the defense that would have the most 505 00:31:31,560 --> 00:31:34,240 Speaker 1: chance of being persuasive to the jury. I'm looking at 506 00:31:34,760 --> 00:31:38,200 Speaker 1: the actual police report and it says the autopsy results 507 00:31:38,200 --> 00:31:42,040 Speaker 1: in medical records for both children show they were entirely 508 00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:47,480 Speaker 1: healthy with no genetic abnormality. So there goes your theory, 509 00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:51,000 Speaker 1: Robin Ficker, that the mom passed down some genetic abnormality 510 00:31:51,360 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: and somehow you dragged in the theory of six toes. 511 00:31:54,680 --> 00:31:56,600 Speaker 1: Oh how I wish I were in court with you 512 00:31:56,760 --> 00:32:00,400 Speaker 1: right now. So, Robin Ficker, the autopsy reveals there are 513 00:32:00,440 --> 00:32:05,200 Speaker 1: no genetic abnormalities, no diseases, no injuries, that children are 514 00:32:05,320 --> 00:32:09,720 Speaker 1: quote entirely healthy. Well, I think that the person that 515 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 1: did that study probably had certain leanings towards convictions and 516 00:32:15,200 --> 00:32:19,160 Speaker 1: wasn't looking for abnormalities. As my expert. Would I would 517 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:24,200 Speaker 1: find someone who knew how to look for abnormalities, it 518 00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:29,280 Speaker 1: was experienced in finding abnormalities, and would find abnormalities which 519 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,240 Speaker 1: I would present to the juror. I was wondering what 520 00:32:31,360 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 1: your fallback was going to be. It's like in a 521 00:32:33,240 --> 00:32:36,840 Speaker 1: rape case. First of all, they perhaps says I didn't 522 00:32:36,880 --> 00:32:40,200 Speaker 1: do it. Then the part when confronted with DNA, says 523 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,040 Speaker 1: it was consensual. Then when it turns out that the 524 00:32:45,160 --> 00:32:49,480 Speaker 1: victim is bruised and has the defendants DNA under her fingernails, 525 00:32:50,480 --> 00:32:55,400 Speaker 1: it degenerates into she wanted rough sex and finally she 526 00:32:55,520 --> 00:32:57,760 Speaker 1: had on a short skirt and a low cut blouse 527 00:32:57,920 --> 00:33:00,760 Speaker 1: and she's on the birth control pill. That's how that goes. 528 00:33:00,840 --> 00:33:04,120 Speaker 1: That's the textbook and rape defense. Robin Ficker, He's just 529 00:33:04,280 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: taught me a lot actually about how this case would 530 00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:12,760 Speaker 1: be will be defended. You go from accident to genetic 531 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:18,880 Speaker 1: abnormality to the coroner did not look for genetic abnormalities, 532 00:33:19,800 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: and now it's too late. You know, I could see 533 00:33:23,040 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: how you would put a doubt, not a reasonable one, 534 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,760 Speaker 1: but a doubt in somebody's mind. Jennifer Zakowski crime Aline 535 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:34,680 Speaker 1: dot Com investigative reporter. Luckily the medical examiner in this 536 00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:39,040 Speaker 1: case the second time around did cover all the bases 537 00:33:39,080 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: and look for genetic mutations. He certainly did. And you 538 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: know I have se results in medical records for Bold 539 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:51,120 Speaker 1: babies showed that they were entirely healthy with no genetic abnormalities, 540 00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,800 Speaker 1: no diseases, and no injuries. Well, we've also got the 541 00:33:55,200 --> 00:33:59,360 Speaker 1: m O. Let me ask you about that. Dr Carol Lieberman, 542 00:33:59,880 --> 00:34:02,680 Speaker 1: is like history repeating itself. You know, there's a theory 543 00:34:02,760 --> 00:34:05,160 Speaker 1: that people do the same things over and over and over, 544 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:08,080 Speaker 1: and the only insane thing is thinking there'll be a 545 00:34:08,120 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: different outcome. We'll check this out, Dr Carol Lieberman, psychiatrist 546 00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:18,319 Speaker 1: and author. In both circumstances, she did exactly the same thing. 547 00:34:18,840 --> 00:34:21,080 Speaker 1: She waits till she's at home alone with a child, 548 00:34:21,800 --> 00:34:25,719 Speaker 1: then she calls to say the child isn't breathing, exactly 549 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,640 Speaker 1: the same words. Then she calls the family, Then she 550 00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: stands by while everyone rushes into the scene to try 551 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:36,640 Speaker 1: to do CPR. Is the very same, the exact same 552 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:41,279 Speaker 1: scenario over and over. Dr Carol, Yes, absolutely. And to 553 00:34:41,440 --> 00:34:43,839 Speaker 1: go to a point you were saying earlier, it could 554 00:34:44,120 --> 00:34:47,279 Speaker 1: still be uh that this was partly that she was 555 00:34:47,360 --> 00:34:50,600 Speaker 1: angry at these men maybe for not giving her enough attention, uh, 556 00:34:50,880 --> 00:34:52,920 Speaker 1: for not being there with her, for she felt might 557 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:55,040 Speaker 1: have felt abandoned and so on. You know, how do 558 00:34:55,080 --> 00:34:58,800 Speaker 1: you like that? Then where she calls the family of 559 00:34:58,960 --> 00:35:01,640 Speaker 1: her husband the second baby to come over and do 560 00:35:01,719 --> 00:35:05,960 Speaker 1: see people CPR. If you don't do CPR within six minutes, 561 00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:09,040 Speaker 1: that baby is brain did or a person is brain did. 562 00:35:09,440 --> 00:35:12,279 Speaker 1: So why would you wait until you call somebody? That 563 00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:14,920 Speaker 1: was she doing CPR in the meantime? You know what, 564 00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,799 Speaker 1: there's no indications she did anything to revive the child. 565 00:35:17,880 --> 00:35:20,680 Speaker 1: And what we are learning according to her LinkedIn page 566 00:35:21,239 --> 00:35:23,680 Speaker 1: is the Fountain had been working at the Delhi department 567 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:26,400 Speaker 1: in a local grocery store since about two thousand and eleven. 568 00:35:26,760 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: She had just divorced. According to court records, she has 569 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:34,200 Speaker 1: just these two children. We have no reason to believe 570 00:35:34,360 --> 00:35:37,280 Speaker 1: her exercisem of the soldier, the father of the thirteen 571 00:35:37,320 --> 00:35:41,919 Speaker 1: month old, had any knowledge of the crime. Now when 572 00:35:42,320 --> 00:35:47,120 Speaker 1: she appeared over close circuit TV, for she was just 573 00:35:47,440 --> 00:35:50,560 Speaker 1: arraigned in the last days, she was wearing an anti 574 00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:54,040 Speaker 1: suicide smock. I doubt pretty I'm looking at it right now, 575 00:35:54,080 --> 00:35:57,440 Speaker 1: I doubt pretty seriously that this woman is going to 576 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:01,480 Speaker 1: try and commit suicide. I mean, if she were that distraught, 577 00:36:01,520 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: why would she have killed the second baby? Dr Carol, 578 00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 1: This woman is going to kill herself. She killed these 579 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:13,080 Speaker 1: two babies for a lifestyle. She didn't want children anymore. 580 00:36:13,080 --> 00:36:18,160 Speaker 1: It's like top Mom times two. Um yeah, uh, it doesn't. 581 00:36:18,200 --> 00:36:20,880 Speaker 1: She does not seem to to be I mean, she 582 00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: seems like she's trying to get everybody's sympathy and attention, 583 00:36:23,600 --> 00:36:26,759 Speaker 1: just like she was all along. Hey, Dr Carol, is 584 00:36:26,840 --> 00:36:29,680 Speaker 1: this like Munchausen by proxy type thing and she just 585 00:36:29,719 --> 00:36:32,880 Speaker 1: went a bridge too far? Well no, because um, she 586 00:36:32,960 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: would have been. She would have had to have been 587 00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:37,080 Speaker 1: taking the babies to doctors in order for it to 588 00:36:37,120 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 1: be Munchausen by proxy. There didn't seem to be any 589 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:43,239 Speaker 1: evidence of that. She is now charged in the too 590 00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:49,840 Speaker 1: homicides of her infant daughters. We wait as justice unfolds. 591 00:36:50,719 --> 00:36:54,359 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off Goodbye friend