Speaker 1: In case you're just recently joining us, or however long
Speaker 1: you've been a listener of the show, you may not
Speaker 1: realize that we have years and years of incredible episodes
Speaker 1: in our archive. We've had so many wonderful guests that
Speaker 1: we've decided to handpick one of our favorites that may
Speaker 1: be new to you, but if not, it's definitely worth
Speaker 1: another listen. We hope you'll enjoy this episode with Sharon Salzburg.
Speaker 1: You can learn how to start over. You can learn
Speaker 1: how to begin again, and that's the most important thing.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed throughout time. Great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have. Quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true. And yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think they us
Speaker 1: that hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's
Speaker 1: not just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious,
Speaker 1: consistent and creative effort to make a life worth living.
Speaker 1: This podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving
Speaker 1: in the right direction, how they feed their good wolf.
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest today is Sharon Salzburg,
Speaker 1: one of the world's best known Buddhist teachers and a
Speaker 1: leader in meditation retreats worldwide since nineteen seventy four. She
Speaker 1: teaches both intensive awareness practice papasta or insight meditation, and
Speaker 1: the profound cultivation of loving, kindness and compassion. She is
Speaker 1: a co founder of the Insight Meditation Society in Bar, Massachusetts,
Speaker 1: and the Bar Center for Buddhist Studies. Sharon's latest book
Speaker 1: is Real Happiness at Work Meditations or Accomplishment, Achievement and Peace.
Speaker 1: Hi Sharon, Welcome to the show. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1: I'm very happy to have you on. I have read
Speaker 1: your books for a number of years now and and
Speaker 1: visited the Meditation center that you were a co founder of,
Speaker 1: so this is exciting for me to get you on. Um.
Speaker 1: We'll start the show like we always do, with the parable.
Speaker 1: There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he
Speaker 1: thinks about it for a second. Then he looks up
Speaker 1: at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life and in the work
Speaker 1: that you do. I think I have a somewhat unusual
Speaker 1: take on it, as well as maybe a more common
Speaker 1: source of stress, length and inspiration from it. The unusual
Speaker 1: take is the so called bad wolf, you know, where um,
Speaker 1: rather than feeling hatred or disdain or kind of incredible
Speaker 1: dislike for that aspect those qualities, learning a kind of
Speaker 1: compassionate awareness, so that that wolf may not be overpowering,
Speaker 1: it may not take over, but it can sort of
Speaker 1: a company one in a gentle way throughout one's journey,
Speaker 1: you know. So there's that part, which I think is
Speaker 1: is somewhat more unusual. The the more usual one which
Speaker 1: does give me a source of inspiration and strength is
Speaker 1: the concept of choice. You know that so many forces
Speaker 1: may arise in our minds, and so many different kinds
Speaker 1: of conditioning and habit and so on. But we really
Speaker 1: do have a choice, and we have a tremendous amount
Speaker 1: of power because of how we might relate to those
Speaker 1: different forces. Some we we do want to nourish and
Speaker 1: nurture and strengthen than others we want to more gently
Speaker 1: let go of and and not have them be so strong.
Speaker 1: So you have written a lot of books about a
Speaker 1: lot of things and given countless talks really across the
Speaker 1: spectrum of Buddhist ideas, But one of the things you're
Speaker 1: probably most known for is the idea of loving kindness.
Speaker 1: Can you just share briefly what that means to you? Now?
Speaker 1: You've been talking about and writing about it for a
Speaker 1: long time, So what does it mean to you now
Speaker 1: after all these years. That's an interesting question. My first
Speaker 1: book was called Loving Kindness, and it came out twenty
Speaker 1: years ago, and I'm working on a book now called
Speaker 1: Real Love. So it's almost like that very question is
Speaker 1: is permeating my day. Um. I think of loving kindness
Speaker 1: most profoundly is a sense of connection, And I think
Speaker 1: about all the ways we are connected in that I
Speaker 1: or we experience connection in life, which you know, isn't
Speaker 1: necessarily something mystical or spiritual, but just through it economic
Speaker 1: understanding or environmental understanding, or are the ways we see
Speaker 1: our lives really have something to do with one another.
Speaker 1: And uh, I try every day to with that sense,
Speaker 1: see how I act with people one on one or collectively.
Speaker 1: How much attention am I paying? How much am I recognizing? Yeah,
Speaker 1: we we do have something to do with one another.
Speaker 1: And because my work is so centered around loving kindness,
Speaker 1: a lot of what I try to emphasize is loving
Speaker 1: kindness is not a weakness. It doesn't make us silly,
Speaker 1: it doesn't make us give in to things, but it's
Speaker 1: its own kind of strength to to recognize connection and
Speaker 1: to respond from that place. Now, loving kindness is often,
Speaker 1: you know, it's it's used synonymously with compassion often, and um,
Speaker 1: you know, there's there's been teachers in the Buddhist school
Speaker 1: who have referred to something called idiot compassion. Help me
Speaker 1: understand the difference between loving kindness and idiot compassion. Okay, Well, first,
Speaker 1: there's actually a distinction between loving kindness and compassion, although
Speaker 1: they're very close and they certainly support one another. Um,
Speaker 1: loving kindness is that fundamental sense of connectedness with ourselves
Speaker 1: and with others ultimately with all beings. And it's often
Speaker 1: based on the recognition that everybody actually wants to be happy.
Speaker 1: We make incredible mistakes because of the force of ignorance,
Speaker 1: like we forget where happiness is to be found er,
Speaker 1: we can't figure it out to begin with. But everybody
Speaker 1: actually wants to be happy. That we all share this
Speaker 1: UM And compassion is considered the trembling or the quivering
Speaker 1: of the heart in response to seeing pain or suffering.
Speaker 1: So it's a movement of the heart, and it's a
Speaker 1: movement toward to see if we can be of help.
Speaker 1: And that's based not so much on seeing everybody wants
Speaker 1: to be happy, but on recognizing our universal vulnerability. How
Speaker 1: everybody is vulnerable to change, to loss. We don't all
Speaker 1: share the same measure of grief or unhappiness, that's clear,
Speaker 1: but everybody is vulnerable. So compassion is not like a
Speaker 1: top down experience. UM. It's an equalizing experience. And so
Speaker 1: compassion has a kind of tenderness around the sense of
Speaker 1: seeing suffering or the possibility of suffering. And that's one
Speaker 1: of the distinctions between loving kindness and compassion. UH somebody
Speaker 1: once said, compassion is love, that experience is suffering, that
Speaker 1: opens to suffering. Idiot compassion was a phrase of Trump
Speaker 1: or impechase um st Betan Lama really talking about when
Speaker 1: compassion is not accompanied by wisdom. And I think one
Speaker 1: of the things to understand with loving, kindness or compassion
Speaker 1: is that they're not meant to define what action will
Speaker 1: take to something some provocation or or some situation. They're
Speaker 1: talking about the heart space that we're coming from, the
Speaker 1: motivation or the intentions. So you might be coming from
Speaker 1: a genuinely compassionate place, and your discernment, your understanding, your
Speaker 1: best guess of the most skillful way to act in
Speaker 1: that context in that moment's really fierce, really strong. Saying no,
Speaker 1: having a boundary doesn't mean you're not coming from a
Speaker 1: compassionate place. It just means that's what wisdom is, is
Speaker 1: telling you to to act, you know, with And so
Speaker 1: the idea of idiot compassion is more like you think
Speaker 1: you always have to say yes, and you have to
Speaker 1: be kind of you know, squashy, and you have to
Speaker 1: just give in all the time or give them all
Speaker 1: your money or whatever it might be. That idea that
Speaker 1: everybody wants to be happy and that everybody suffers was
Speaker 1: one of those teachings that I think changed me on
Speaker 1: a pretty profound level when I really got it, and
Speaker 1: I go back to it all the time, as you know,
Speaker 1: just looking at people and going well underneath, if you
Speaker 1: if you strip everything else away, that's the fundamental truth
Speaker 1: of all of us, and we can all relate with that,
Speaker 1: and it's it's a really powerful teaching. Yeah, I think
Speaker 1: it is very powerful. It's very it's very interesting just
Speaker 1: to use it. You know, you're in a meeting or
Speaker 1: something and you look around the table, you look at
Speaker 1: the people in the room and you think, well, you
Speaker 1: want to be happy too, and you want to be
Speaker 1: happy too, and you know what does that change? What
Speaker 1: does that do? Yep? It certainly helps us, uh not
Speaker 1: not feel so isolated or different. I'm going to read
Speaker 1: a couple of lines from one of your writings that
Speaker 1: we talk on this show a lot about changing habits
Speaker 1: and you know, the voices in our head, the things
Speaker 1: that we say to ourselves over and over, and I
Speaker 1: just found this a really moving things. So I'll just
Speaker 1: read it to you and then maybe you can elaborate
Speaker 1: upon it. It is never too late to turn on
Speaker 1: the light. Your ability to break an unhealthy habit or
Speaker 1: and off an old tape doesn't depend on how long
Speaker 1: it has been running. A shift in perspective doesn't depend
Speaker 1: on how long you've held onto the old view. When
Speaker 1: you flip the switch in that attict, it doesn't matter
Speaker 1: whether it's been dark for ten minutes, ten years, or
Speaker 1: ten decades. The light still illuminates the room and banishes
Speaker 1: the murkiness, letting you see the things you couldn't see before.
Speaker 1: It is never too late to take a moment to look. Wow.
Speaker 1: I said that that's great. Yeah, it's just I love
Speaker 1: that idea of it doesn't matter how long it's been happening,
Speaker 1: it's always worth trying to make a change. I think
Speaker 1: it's really true. And one of the things I've loved
Speaker 1: about meditation practice is how sometimes the really big life
Speaker 1: lessons manifest in meditation and these itty bitty little packages. So,
Speaker 1: for example, in meditation practice, if you're practicing in a
Speaker 1: way where say you're trying to arrest your attention on
Speaker 1: a certain object, like the feeling of the breath, it's
Speaker 1: usually not nine thousand breaths before your mind wanders. It's
Speaker 1: usually like to write and then you're just gone, your
Speaker 1: way gone, and then comes this magic moment when you realize, oh,
Speaker 1: I haven't really been with the breath. And that's considered
Speaker 1: the crucial moment because that's the moment we have the
Speaker 1: chance to first of all, forgive ourselves gently, let go
Speaker 1: and come back to start over. It's a sense of renewal,
Speaker 1: it's a sense of resilience, and you have to do
Speaker 1: it billion times. You just do it over and over
Speaker 1: and over again. And I think that's one of the
Speaker 1: most important things we ever do in meditation practice, because
Speaker 1: that's the kind of thing we take right into our life.
Speaker 1: You know, you have an aspiration, you blow it, you
Speaker 1: have to start over, you have to begin again. Um
Speaker 1: something happens and you fall down and you have to
Speaker 1: pick yourself up. You have to begin again. I think
Speaker 1: the way I say it now in life is that
Speaker 1: I don't really believe anything in life is a straight shot.
Speaker 1: You know, we're always having to start over and start
Speaker 1: over and start over. So in some ways meditation practice
Speaker 1: something for me and for many people I've witnessed, really
Speaker 1: it forms the training ground for that ability. And that's
Speaker 1: why it's never too late. Um. Coming back is coming back.
Speaker 1: It doesn't matter if you've been gone for an hour
Speaker 1: or or ten weeks. You know you're back. Yep. I
Speaker 1: think that's so powerful and we One of the things
Speaker 1: I notice in a lot of people that I work
Speaker 1: within and myself is is this sort of all or
Speaker 1: nothing mindset. When we make a mistake, it's like you
Speaker 1: just oh, screw it, right, I you know, I blew,
Speaker 1: you know I messed up, and you just drop everything
Speaker 1: and walk away, versus recognizing that's just part of the path.
Speaker 1: It's going to happen, it's normal, and you know, just
Speaker 1: keep keep moving forward, which I think I think that's
Speaker 1: the essential lesson. UM. And it's interesting I think even
Speaker 1: the way we frame things like in language, because and
Speaker 1: I too do it. But you know, I hear people
Speaker 1: say they ask questions like, um, how can I keep
Speaker 1: this level of mindfulness or how can I maintain this
Speaker 1: kind of concentration after the retreat? And I always say,
Speaker 1: it's not going to happen, you know, don't. I don't
Speaker 1: even think that way. It's not going to happen. But
Speaker 1: you can learn how to start over, you can learn
Speaker 1: how to begin again. And that's the most important thing
Speaker 1: you talk about, the idea that and it's it's the
Speaker 1: it's the basic Buddhist concept that our our minds are
Speaker 1: naturally radiant, but that we have I've heard you refer
Speaker 1: to them as visitors who come and sort of obscure
Speaker 1: that view, and you talk about how A it's really
Speaker 1: natural that those visitors come and and be not fighting
Speaker 1: them so much. Can you talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: what those visitors that obscure our mind are in A
Speaker 1: in A your your thoughts on the best way to
Speaker 1: handle them. Is a beautiful quotation from the Buddha. I've
Speaker 1: always liked where he said, the mind is naturally radiant
Speaker 1: and pure, the mind is shining. It's because of visiting
Speaker 1: forces that we suffer. Um. I just loved it because
Speaker 1: as soon as I heard it, I have this image
Speaker 1: of myself sitting happily at home, minding my own business,
Speaker 1: and then there's a knock at the door. So I
Speaker 1: get up and I opened the door, and there's greed, hatred, jealousy, Um,
Speaker 1: all those kinds of visitors that, uh, we are so
Speaker 1: tempted first of all to fling open the door and
Speaker 1: say welcome home. It's all yours, like forgetting who actually
Speaker 1: lives here, or as I've certainly seen many times, were
Speaker 1: attempted to shut the door desperately in their face, trying
Speaker 1: to pretend we never heard the knock, only to find
Speaker 1: that the visitor then comes in through the window or
Speaker 1: down through the chimney, or somehow makes its presence known.
Speaker 1: So I've often thought of that skill of what happens
Speaker 1: just as we opened the door and we see something
Speaker 1: like greed or fear, or rage or hostility jealousy they're visiting.
Speaker 1: Can we remember who actually lives here, and remember who
Speaker 1: we are in effect, in a deeper way, stay centered recognized.
Speaker 1: This is what I meant about the so called bad wolf.
Speaker 1: You know, not freak out and not be afraid of
Speaker 1: the visitor, and not hate them, but realize, I'm not
Speaker 1: gonna let you take over. You know you can, you
Speaker 1: can just go and their whole schools of Buddhist methodology,
Speaker 1: which to vastly oversimplify it, would basically say, invite the
Speaker 1: visitor in for meal, just be an eye on them
Speaker 1: so they don't take over. But you don't have to
Speaker 1: be so afraid. And I was once teaching actually here
Speaker 1: the Insite Meditation Society, and I said that someone in
Speaker 1: the room didn't like that, so I said, I have
Speaker 1: about invite them in for a cup of tea. And
Speaker 1: I didn't like that either, and they said, how about
Speaker 1: a cup of tea to go? So I said, that's okay.
Speaker 1: Have you just give him a cup of tea to go.
Speaker 1: The idea is that our own resistance and resentment and
Speaker 1: fear actually makes that visitors stronger, and it's better to
Speaker 1: have a calmer, more balanced, compassionate relationship. Right that saying
Speaker 1: you know what you resist persists, you know, seems to
Speaker 1: really be true. You talk about an essential question to
Speaker 1: ask ourselves, and this is not one that I have
Speaker 1: done a whole lot. So I find it really um
Speaker 1: intriguing to think about. But the question is what do
Speaker 1: I really need right now, in this moment to be happy.
Speaker 1: I know you were going to say that, then you started.
Speaker 1: I thought, what is that essential question? Um? Yes, I
Speaker 1: used that question a lot, and I find it very profound,
Speaker 1: partly because I think we have so many kind of
Speaker 1: manufactured desires. In a way, we're told by society or
Speaker 1: other people or the culture that we need certain things
Speaker 1: in order to be happy, and we don't necessarily question that,
Speaker 1: And so much of our life can be in the
Speaker 1: pursuit of those very things. You know. We need a
Speaker 1: certain level of fame, we need a certain kind of stature,
Speaker 1: we need success as packaged in a certain way. We
Speaker 1: need this many objects. And I just had to move
Speaker 1: a physical move from one apartment which I sometimes sublit,
Speaker 1: an apartment in New York City even though I live
Speaker 1: in Massachusetts, and I had to leave it to them,
Speaker 1: and everything had to leave. So I was just opt
Speaker 1: and I made all those determinations, like I'm gonna give
Speaker 1: away half those books. You know, it's ridiculous, And but
Speaker 1: we're taught, you know, you need this much accumulation, you
Speaker 1: need these many things, and then you'll be perfectly happy.
Speaker 1: And it takes, first of all, kind of courage and
Speaker 1: great strength. And it's so liberating to step back from
Speaker 1: that and say, what do I really need in order
Speaker 1: to be happy? And uh, you know, and we take
Speaker 1: that to psychological and emotional realms, to like, you know,
Speaker 1: maybe we've been taught that vengeance is strength and endless
Speaker 1: competition is happiness. But let's take a look how happy
Speaker 1: doesn't make me? Actually, yeah, I love that idea, particularly
Speaker 1: two of you know, what do I need in this moment?
Speaker 1: Because if I stop and I think about life, that's
Speaker 1: such a grand thing, and it's easy to think, well,
Speaker 1: I could need that and that would be good. And
Speaker 1: but if I stop and go right now, right where
Speaker 1: I sit, what do I need to be happy? And
Speaker 1: I realized that in the moment, if I if I
Speaker 1: were you know, if I were to if the visitors
Speaker 1: weren't maybe so present, I would have everything I would need.
Speaker 1: It's right here, there's nothing. You know, the moment can
Speaker 1: be enough if we allow it. Well, the visitors may
Speaker 1: be present, but if they weren't so overpowering, you know
Speaker 1: that that's another way of finding that kind of happiness.
Speaker 1: There's a couple of questions that come up on this
Speaker 1: show over and over again that I asked because I'm
Speaker 1: particularly intrigued by them or I wrestle with them. One is,
Speaker 1: there's this idea of of dealing with emotions, and on
Speaker 1: one hand, there is sort of the idea of repressing
Speaker 1: the emotions, you know, pretending they're not they're ignoring them, um,
Speaker 1: you know, making them go away via alcohol whatever. And
Speaker 1: then on the far other extreme, is this idea of
Speaker 1: sort of indulging in them, wallowing in them. How do
Speaker 1: you find the middle ground between those two areas. I
Speaker 1: think that any training and mindfulness is precisely that. Actually,
Speaker 1: we sometimes calm mindfulness the place in the middle, and
Speaker 1: it's practice. We practice and practice and practice. And you know,
Speaker 1: craving for alcohol is a harder place to practice. We
Speaker 1: start with, you know, um, whatever is happening right now,
Speaker 1: and work towards the harder places as well. But um,
Speaker 1: that's the precise practice. Something comes up, we have the
Speaker 1: habit either diving into it, getting overwhelmed by it, especially
Speaker 1: having to guide our choices and our actions, or we
Speaker 1: hate it, we fear it, we can't stand it. And
Speaker 1: to find that place in the middle where we can say,
Speaker 1: there's a visitor. I remember who lives here, but something
Speaker 1: is visiting, or um, this is what's happening right now,
Speaker 1: this is just the truth of the present moment. Look
Speaker 1: at that. I can be aware of it. I don't
Speaker 1: have to dive into it. I don't have to fight it.
Speaker 1: Look at that. Um, that's almost like the definition of mindfulness.
Speaker 1: And you know, rather thing of mindfulness is as kind
Speaker 1: of magical quality that some people have and other people don't.
Speaker 1: I just see it as a training and that uh,
Speaker 1: you know, we just practice and practice and practice. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I think that's certainly the case that it is a training.
Speaker 1: Um My ability to do it has has gotten a
Speaker 1: lot better simply by by doing it. I mean I've
Speaker 1: been reading you know, mindfulness related things. You know, you
Speaker 1: wrote your first book twenty years ago. I probably started
Speaker 1: reading books like that about twenty years ago. And for
Speaker 1: years on and off, I had just had the most
Speaker 1: inconsistent meditation practice, you know, I'd meditate hard for a
Speaker 1: month and then not the rest of the year or
Speaker 1: and finally, over the last few years, I've just gotten
Speaker 1: to every day, I'm gonna sit down and do this
Speaker 1: for a little while. And it's amazing what that consistent
Speaker 1: day after day practice does. It's not you know, it's
Speaker 1: not anything. Um it's not like a miracle. It's not
Speaker 1: like I'm always happy. It's just that kind of like
Speaker 1: you said, I can I can see more clearly what's
Speaker 1: happening in my brain. I can go, oh, this is
Speaker 1: what this is, and this is what that is, and
Speaker 1: and it doesn't make um. You know, I think one
Speaker 1: of the things that I thought was if I became
Speaker 1: mindful or meditated, I wouldn't feel bad once I recognize like, oh,
Speaker 1: I'm sad that I would no longer be said, And
Speaker 1: that's not really the case. It's just that, like I
Speaker 1: like what you said, I'm better able to think about
Speaker 1: what my reaction my behavior is around those things. I
Speaker 1: think that's totally true, and it's so um. First of all,
Speaker 1: I think it's great that you've been practiced consistently, truly,
Speaker 1: because it's also not easy, you know, um, But I
Speaker 1: think it's the most important thing and also makes it
Speaker 1: the most inclusive thing, you know, because it's not up
Speaker 1: to you know, to succeed or to make progress in meditation.
Speaker 1: Doesn't mean you have to be a certain kind of
Speaker 1: person or have a certain kind of life, a certain
Speaker 1: sort of situation. It means you have to do the practice,
Speaker 1: and anybody who practices can develop those strengths, and it's
Speaker 1: within everyone's capacity to do that, and so um. Even
Speaker 1: though it can be incredibly hard to find the time,
Speaker 1: which is so ironic because we're not talking about eight
Speaker 1: hours a day, you know, you're talking like ten or
Speaker 1: twenty minutes a day, it can be very hard to
Speaker 1: find the time, or you might feel like you're too busy,
Speaker 1: there's too much else to do, or even some nice
Speaker 1: people say I felt selfish taking the time for myself.
Speaker 1: It's it's really an incredibly important thing to do. So
Speaker 1: if I'm just having casual conversation and I sort of
Speaker 1: explained some of the concept of Buddhism and the for
Speaker 1: noble truths, one of the things that comes up a
Speaker 1: lot is this idea of well, am I just supposed
Speaker 1: to not want anything? Then? You know, if we say that,
Speaker 1: you know that it's this it's this craving that is
Speaker 1: at the root of our suffering. Um, people are am
Speaker 1: I just not supposed to want anything? And and even myself,
Speaker 1: I look at the world and it looks to me
Speaker 1: like this idea of growing and striving and changing is fundamental.
Speaker 1: It seems like it's built into the fabric of the
Speaker 1: world of nature. And so how do you Um? I
Speaker 1: always say to people, Well, I'm sure a good Buddhist
Speaker 1: teacher could tell you why that's not exactly what it
Speaker 1: means better than I can. So now I'm going to
Speaker 1: ask you to tell me why that's not true. Uh, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're right. It's all. Part of it is a confusion
Speaker 1: of language. You know, there are lots of words in
Speaker 1: Polly or Sanskrit that are very precise and maybe not
Speaker 1: so much in English. So the question of wanting or
Speaker 1: desire is I mean, that's a word that is used
Speaker 1: to translate lots of different words in Sanskrit or Polly.
Speaker 1: Polly is the language of the original Buddhist text, and
Speaker 1: so um, a lot would depend on one's motivation. You
Speaker 1: could want and aspire and have tremendous intensity around something
Speaker 1: really positive, and you can want and aspire and a
Speaker 1: tremendous intensity about something that will really damage you or
Speaker 1: really harm others, and so um, the in intensity is
Speaker 1: itself kind of neutral. It depends on what's accompanying it,
Speaker 1: you know. So like, uh, I'm actually looking at that
Speaker 1: beautiful painting behind your shoulders since we can see each
Speaker 1: other on Skype, and uh, you know, I could do
Speaker 1: a riff on. I really want that. Wow, that's kind
Speaker 1: of incredible. Wow, I have to have that. And you know,
Speaker 1: there's not really room in my apartment in New York
Speaker 1: City or my house in Massachusetts, So maybe I need
Speaker 1: a new apartment in New York City. And you know,
Speaker 1: maybe I need a bigger apartment in New York City
Speaker 1: with more wall space I can hang more things, but
Speaker 1: that would be kind of expense. It doesn't matter, right,
Speaker 1: So that's the kind of wanting we get into because
Speaker 1: we're not thinking about what we might have to compromise
Speaker 1: in order to get what we want, or who we
Speaker 1: might hurt, or what we might be giving up to
Speaker 1: get what we want. But we can't think about that,
Speaker 1: you know. And that doesn't mean you never buy the painting.
Speaker 1: It means that you do it in a climate of wisdom. Yeah.
Speaker 1: And I think the other thing that I've realized is
Speaker 1: I used to think that all striving an ambition came
Speaker 1: out of um, a place of deep dissatisfaction. And I
Speaker 1: think that I've found that striving and ambition and all
Speaker 1: that can come out of a place of the joy
Speaker 1: of creating, of making, of changing, not out of the
Speaker 1: I hate where I'm at place. I think that's very true.
Speaker 1: And uh, as you started speaking, the word creation came
Speaker 1: into my mind, creativity and and uh, you know, so
Speaker 1: I would completely agree with you. I think that there
Speaker 1: is that creative impulse and even compassion, you know, And
Speaker 1: in many translations. It's described as compassionate energy. It's a
Speaker 1: manifesting energy. So you know, compassion doesn't mean you sit
Speaker 1: around and feel bad. It means you go to ward
Speaker 1: to see if you can be of help. And that
Speaker 1: doesn't mean you can go into in order to burn up,
Speaker 1: you know, or um crash. But you go toward. It's
Speaker 1: it's got to manifestation of creativity to it. If it
Speaker 1: just meant sitting around feeling bad, then you're not helping anybody,
Speaker 1: including yourself. One of your recent books was written with
Speaker 1: Robert Thurman. It was called Love Your Enemies, How to
Speaker 1: Break the Anger habit and be a whole lot happier.
Speaker 1: And in that book, you guys define four types of enemies.
Speaker 1: I was wondering if you could walk us through those.
Speaker 1: Sure that the structure of that book came actually from Bob,
Speaker 1: who's a Tibetan Buddhist scholar, So it's a system modeled
Speaker 1: within Tibetan Buddhism. The first kind of enemy is the
Speaker 1: outer enemy, which is the clear conventional enemy, someone's try
Speaker 1: to hurt you, or um feels like a threat to
Speaker 1: you or those you love. UM. The inner enemy is
Speaker 1: our own rage, our anger, our own fear. UM. The
Speaker 1: way is that we get overcome and that that doesn't
Speaker 1: mean the appearance of those states, right, those are just visitors.
Speaker 1: But when we get overcome by, we get defined by
Speaker 1: They become chronic states. They affect our choices, they really
Speaker 1: define our lives. That's the problem. That becomes like an
Speaker 1: enemy because we've we've given over a lot of our
Speaker 1: life's energy to this one particular way of reacting. UM.
Speaker 1: So that's like the inner enemy. The secret enemy within
Speaker 1: that formulation is the construct of a separate self that
Speaker 1: we live under the idea that we're independent rather than interdependent,
Speaker 1: that we should be in control of things, that there's
Speaker 1: something permanent um, and I'm yielding within us, that we
Speaker 1: can count on. UM. That's an enemy because it's all untrue.
Speaker 1: And so once we're living at variance to what's actually true,
Speaker 1: we suffer. That's what makes something an enemy. It produces suffering.
Speaker 1: And then, as Bob described it, the most secret enemy,
Speaker 1: because that's a Tibetan system, it's the outer, the inner,
Speaker 1: the secret, the most secret. The most secret enemy is
Speaker 1: a kind of self loathing where we don't understand the
Speaker 1: actual capacity were said to have for change, for wisdom,
Speaker 1: for love, for growth, and um. So, of course that
Speaker 1: capacity isn't always realized, and it may be covered over,
Speaker 1: it may be hidden and maybe hard to find, it,
Speaker 1: maybe hard to trust. But it said, it's always always there,
Speaker 1: no matter what we may go through, it's always there.
Speaker 1: And so when we don't appreciate that, then that's also
Speaker 1: a kind of enemy. And you guys say that regardless
Speaker 1: of what type of enemy it is. The method to
Speaker 1: overcome those is, you know, follows a similar format. Can
Speaker 1: you walk us through briefly what you know, what is
Speaker 1: the right way to deal with those those enemies? Well,
Speaker 1: I would I would take us back to you know,
Speaker 1: sitting happily at home and you hear the knock at
Speaker 1: the door, like a visitor has appeared. So there are
Speaker 1: a couple of things in the Buddhist statement that are
Speaker 1: really remarkable. The mind is naturally radiant and pure, the
Speaker 1: mind is shining. It's because of visiting forces that we suffer.
Speaker 1: First of all, a remarkable thing is the appreciation that
Speaker 1: these forces are just visiting. They come and go, they
Speaker 1: may visit a lot, but they're still just visiting. They're
Speaker 1: not who we essentially are. And so we see something
Speaker 1: at play and we remember, I don't have to fall
Speaker 1: into this, and I also don't have to fight it.
Speaker 1: I can find that middle way, that that way of
Speaker 1: awareness to be with it, to recognize it, not get
Speaker 1: lost in it, not hate it, and then I'm free
Speaker 1: even as it's going on. The other remarkable thing in
Speaker 1: that statement is that the Buddhist said it's because of
Speaker 1: visiting forces that we suffer. He didn't say it's because
Speaker 1: of visiting forces that we're horrible people, or we're terrible
Speaker 1: or worthless or anything like that. He said it's because
Speaker 1: of visiting forces that we suffer. That means compassion is
Speaker 1: always relevant, it's always appropriate, including compassion for ourselves. Wonderful.
Speaker 1: So one of the things that you you talk a
Speaker 1: lot about the idea of setting intentions. You say, each
Speaker 1: decision we make, each action we take, is borne out
Speaker 1: of an intention and that we and then you've kind
Speaker 1: of all of that with we learn and grow and
Speaker 1: or transformed not so much by what we do but
Speaker 1: why and how we do it. And I've just sort
Speaker 1: of started to be a little bit more exposed to
Speaker 1: this idea of intentions. Can you elaborate on that It's
Speaker 1: kind of a subtle and crucial part of mindfulness training
Speaker 1: where uh, you just turn some of your attention to
Speaker 1: where you're coming from, what's motivating you, what you want?
Speaker 1: I say sometimes, like if I'm teaching in a company business,
Speaker 1: I say, you know, before you go into a major
Speaker 1: meeting or you have a big phone call, just ask yourself,
Speaker 1: what is it I want to see the most come
Speaker 1: from this encounter. Do I want to be seen as right?
Speaker 1: Do I want to be helpful? Do I want to
Speaker 1: be harmful? Do I want a resolution? It's just one
Speaker 1: way of beginning to see that, Oh, there's there's a
Speaker 1: motivating element here that's going to contour everything I say
Speaker 1: and everything I refrain from saying. And we continually practice
Speaker 1: that way, like where am I coming from? What is
Speaker 1: it I want? Um? Because from the Buddhist point of view,
Speaker 1: the motivation behind an action is a crucial part of
Speaker 1: the action. We don't think that weighs so much in
Speaker 1: the West, but um, if you just look at something
Speaker 1: like generosity, for example, we know we can be generous
Speaker 1: from a whole variety of different motives, and Buddhism would
Speaker 1: say that it's a different action depending on what's motivating it?
Speaker 1: Like I might give you a book. I might give
Speaker 1: you a book out of my tremendous pile of books,
Speaker 1: um because I like you, or maybe I'm giving it
Speaker 1: too because I don't like you. And I think right
Speaker 1: in that first paragraph, isn be something that's going to
Speaker 1: upset you? Or maybe I can't bear the fact I
Speaker 1: have so many books and I've just got to give
Speaker 1: away it's kind of random. Or you know, maybe I
Speaker 1: just give a big lecture on generosity and all these
Speaker 1: people are looking at me, and I want to be
Speaker 1: thought of as a generous person. Or I see you
Speaker 1: have that painting and I want the painting, and I
Speaker 1: think we'll maybe thank you in the book you give
Speaker 1: me the painting. You know, the physical act of my
Speaker 1: hand reaching down, picking up an object and moving it
Speaker 1: forward is identical, but the heart space that it's coming
Speaker 1: from could be a million different things. And and that
Speaker 1: really figures from the point of view Budhist psychology, that
Speaker 1: really figures in our assessment of the action. Yeah, and
Speaker 1: I really like that idea of just trying to be
Speaker 1: more intentional about like you said, what is it that
Speaker 1: I want out of this encounter? This moment this day.
Speaker 1: You know, it's sometimes it's well, I don't even do
Speaker 1: a good enough job on on a broad scale, but
Speaker 1: I've just found it as I've gotten that idea lately
Speaker 1: is sort of going okay, well, what sort of what
Speaker 1: sort of attention do I want to bring to the
Speaker 1: world today? And yeah, it's great. You share an analogy
Speaker 1: that I don't quite remember where you heard it from,
Speaker 1: but I thought it was very um entertaining and insightful,
Speaker 1: which was, watch your thoughts like a very elderly person
Speaker 1: watching little kids play at the park. Yeah, that's a
Speaker 1: that's actually a meditation instruction from Tibetan Buddhism uh which
Speaker 1: I usually use, actually not even um so exclusively is
Speaker 1: a meditation instruction. I use it as a description of
Speaker 1: the combination of balance and compassion that I think we're
Speaker 1: looking for an action. So let's say you're a really
Speaker 1: elderly person and you're sitting in a park, you're watching
Speaker 1: children play. You know, you've lived a life. That's what
Speaker 1: being elderly implies in this example. You've lived a life.
Speaker 1: You've probably had to let go of a lot of things,
Speaker 1: You've earned some wisdom through life, and there you are.
Speaker 1: You're watching these children play and you see this little
Speaker 1: kid completely freaking out because they've broken a shovel. So
Speaker 1: you're not at all cold and me. You don't go
Speaker 1: over them and say, hey kid, it's just a shovel.
Speaker 1: You know, wait till you have a real problem. You're kind,
Speaker 1: you're tender, you're present, you're caring, but you also don't
Speaker 1: fold and on the ground sobbing, because you know what
Speaker 1: shovels break, that's a part of life. You have perspective,
Speaker 1: you have spaciousness, you have wisdom. So I talked about
Speaker 1: that combination of spaciousness and kindness as certainly I as
Speaker 1: a person, as an individual. If I were seeking help
Speaker 1: from somebody and I told them my very sad story,
Speaker 1: I wouldn't want them to say, hey, it's just a shovel.
Speaker 1: But I also would not want them to fall down
Speaker 1: on the ground sobbing that I'd really freak out. Um,
Speaker 1: I want that that sense of caring and tenderness and kindness,
Speaker 1: and also spaciousness and some glimpse of something beyond the
Speaker 1: immediate situation I find myself in. And so UM, I
Speaker 1: think that in general is what we want as human
Speaker 1: beings when we seek help, and I think it's something
Speaker 1: I think that's something we can also remember we can
Speaker 1: offer as we offer help. You know, people really don't
Speaker 1: get served by our falling down on the ground and
Speaker 1: freaking out. Um, you know, but it's not coldness, it's
Speaker 1: not icen, it's it's a real caring, but with perspective exactly. So,
Speaker 1: I think i'd like to end with uh, one of
Speaker 1: your statements again and ask you just to to go
Speaker 1: into a little bit more detail about it. But it
Speaker 1: says that the difference between misery and happiness depends on
Speaker 1: what we do with our attention. I think that's true.
Speaker 1: Um we uh, you know, for example, something may arise
Speaker 1: in our minds, something uncomfortable, something distressing, one of those
Speaker 1: unpleasant visitors, and we may add so much shame and
Speaker 1: so much distress and feeling. I should have been able
Speaker 1: to stop it. We've been meditating for more than forty years,
Speaker 1: for God's sake. Wise it's still there that we've taken
Speaker 1: an uncomfortable situation and made it a million times worse.
Speaker 1: I'm all alone, I'm isolated, the only one who's ever
Speaker 1: felt it. It's a million times worse. Whereas we can
Speaker 1: also have that uncomfortable thing arise, whatever it is, that
Speaker 1: distressing visitor, and we can envelop ourselves with a sense
Speaker 1: of presence and balance and kindness. Um, remember we're not
Speaker 1: all alone. That this is a part of the human condition.
Speaker 1: We can have compassion for ourselves as well as for others,
Speaker 1: and it's a whole other world even though that same
Speaker 1: thing is arising, and so to a beautiful and wonderful
Speaker 1: and lovely things that arise, we can be so distracted
Speaker 1: we can hardly take them in or we can really
Speaker 1: honor that. Look at that, you know, that's the wolf
Speaker 1: to feed that. That's a capacity I have, And so
Speaker 1: everything really depends on what we do with our attention. Well,
Speaker 1: I think that is a great place to wrap up
Speaker 1: this episode. Charon, thank you so much for taking the
Speaker 1: time to talk with us, for all the writing and
Speaker 1: work that you do, and and uh it's a pleasure
Speaker 1: to have you. Thank you so much. All right, take care,
Speaker 1: bye bye bye. You can learn more about Sharon Salzburg
Speaker 1: and this podcast at one you feed dot net slash Sharon,
Speaker 1: and that's the name Sharon, not like hey, you sharing
Speaker 1: this pizza with me or doing I need to go
Speaker 1: get my own