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Speaker 1: On the Bechdel Cast, the questions ask if movies have

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Speaker 1: women and them, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands?

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Speaker 1: Or do they have individualism?

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Speaker 2: It's the patriarchy, zeph and best start changing with the

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Speaker 2: Bechdel Cast.

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Speaker 3: Hey, Jamie, Hey Caitlyn, can you smuggle half a million

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Speaker 3: dollars out of Cobbo for me? I need the money

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Speaker 3: to get a haircut because my hair and beard are

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Speaker 3: really strange.

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Speaker 1: Classic Caitlin. Yes, of course, and I will. I promise

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Speaker 1: to be like everyone in this movie, really bad at it.

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Speaker 3: Thank you so much. Cool, cool, cool, yeah ough.

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Speaker 1: An iconic introduction. Welcome to the Bechdel Cast. My name

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Speaker 1: is Jamie Loftis.

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Speaker 3: My name is Caitlyn Deronte, and this is our show

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Speaker 3: where we examine movies through an intersectional feminist lens, using

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Speaker 3: the Bechdel Test simply as a jumping off point to

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Speaker 3: initiate a larger conversation.

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Speaker 1: We sure do. But what is the Bechdel Test? Well

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Speaker 1: we'll tell you. Yeah. So, if you've been listening to

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Speaker 1: this show for a long time, you very likely know

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Speaker 1: what it is. It is a media metric created by

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Speaker 1: queer cartoonist Alison Bechdel. Originally in her comic dys To

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Speaker 1: Watch Out For in the eighties. It was a one

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Speaker 1: off joke just sort of pointing out how infrequently women

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Speaker 1: talked to each other in blockbuster movies. But it has

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Speaker 1: since been sort of taken on by culture at large

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Speaker 1: to talk about how infrequently women talk in movies. So

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Speaker 1: there's a lot of different versions of this test. The

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Speaker 1: one we use on this show is as follows. We

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Speaker 1: require that there be two people of a marginalized gender

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Speaker 1: with names who speak to each other about something other

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Speaker 1: than a man for two lines of die or more preferably,

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Speaker 1: it should be a meaningful exchange of dialogue. Which we

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Speaker 1: made that change Win Caitlyn like a couple of years ago,

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Speaker 1: because there were so many movies that it was like, well,

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Speaker 1: someone talks to a waitress at one point, and the

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Speaker 1: waitress is wearing a name tag, so it's feminist, and

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Speaker 1: you're just like, well, okay, we have to make some adjustments.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: Anyways, that's the version we use.

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Speaker 3: Indeed, and today's movie is a long time request. Yes,

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Speaker 3: it's Jackie Brown, the nineteen ninety seven movie written and

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Speaker 3: directed by Quentin Tarantino.

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Speaker 1: Someone who I don't think has ever experienced a scandal before.

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Speaker 1: I think a no famously scandalous director.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Also the production company Miramax.

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Speaker 1: I don't think I've ever heard a bad word about this,

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Speaker 1: So really, I don't think that we'll have really much

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Speaker 1: talk about. It will be a really quick episode, yea, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.

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Speaker 5: No.

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Speaker 3: So we're doing Jackie Brown. We have an amazing guest

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Speaker 3: with us who is a comedian, author of the book

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Speaker 3: sex Bomb, and host of the BBC podcast No Country

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Speaker 3: for Young Women. It's Saudia Asthmat.

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Speaker 5: Hello, welcome, Welcome, Thank you for having me.

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Speaker 3: Hello, thank you for being here and for bringing us

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Speaker 3: this movie.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So, you sent us a number of options of movies

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Speaker 1: you'd like to cover on the show, and this was

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Speaker 1: on the list. So we're curious. What is your history

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Speaker 1: with the movie, Jackie Brown? And I guess sort of

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Speaker 1: like with Tarantino movies overall, because I feel like it's

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Speaker 1: hard to talk about one Tarantino movie without accidentally talking

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Speaker 1: about all of them truly.

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Speaker 4: So you know what I'm not gonna lie.

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Speaker 5: I was going through my watch the Robert de Naro

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Speaker 5: movie Zone or Era.

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Speaker 4: At that point in time, so I was just I.

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Speaker 5: Really liked him, and I heard a lot about Jackie Brown,

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Speaker 5: but not in terms of in any detail, like it

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Speaker 5: would be thrown around, like I didn't know if it

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Speaker 5: was a real movie about like a Jackie Brown was

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Speaker 5: a real person, or like it's just a name that

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Speaker 5: seems to crop up now and then. So it felt

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Speaker 5: like it was part of pop culture and I just

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Speaker 5: hadn't come across it. And also I don't know actually

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Speaker 5: if I was trying to. I don't know if I

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Speaker 5: was on my watching Robert de Niro or watching Sam

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Speaker 5: Jackson zone, but I don't know what that's not a zone,

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Speaker 5: but like in terms of my routine, if you like, so,

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Speaker 5: I love both of them. And then I just watched

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Speaker 5: I didn't know it was directed by Tarantino at the time,

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Speaker 5: and I was blown away because it's not even about

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Speaker 5: Robert de Niro or Sam Jackson, even though they're really great.

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Speaker 4: It's about like Pam Grier's character, and.

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Speaker 5: It really felt like a portrayal of a woman who

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Speaker 5: is from a minority in a way that I'd never

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Speaker 5: seen before that I felt like, obviously I've never had

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Speaker 5: to smuggle money, right, but like that I could really

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Speaker 5: relate to.

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Speaker 4: In terms of the decisions that she had to make.

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Speaker 4: So it was like breathless and I love this movie.

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Speaker 5: And talking about Tarantino, so, I mean, he's made some

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Speaker 5: of the best movies ever, Like Pulp Fiction is clearly like, ah,

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Speaker 5: it's so good. I didn't really like Reservoir I'm not

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Speaker 5: going to go through all of his movies, by the

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Speaker 5: way and.

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Speaker 4: Just tell you why. I thought. That's not very ring.

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Speaker 4: That's not fair, is it.

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Speaker 5: But there's a few that come to my like Django.

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Speaker 4: I think that's how you say it, Jango one change change.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, I really enjoyed it, although I didn't really like

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Speaker 5: and Glorious Bastards and I didn't really like Reservoir Dogs.

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Speaker 5: I think I was gonna say, and so obviously he's

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Speaker 5: a genius, but I think we all know that being

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Speaker 5: a genius doesn't come without its pitfalls.

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Speaker 4: And I think you might know a few of them

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Speaker 4: more than me. But yeah, I mean I don't know

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Speaker 4: like he yeah, as you alluded to, he was.

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Speaker 5: I think obviously he knew about Weinstein, but you know,

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Speaker 5: so many actors probably did, and maybe it didn't occur

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Speaker 5: to them to open their mouths even though everyone listens

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Speaker 5: to them.

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Speaker 4: But anyway, so I really like his movies and I

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Speaker 4: don't know him personally.

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Speaker 3: Hey me either, Yeah, Jamie, what's your relationship with the

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Speaker 3: Tarantino Expanded Universe slash Jackie Brown specifically.

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Speaker 1: Let's see. I Yeah, I feel like we've covered pulp

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Speaker 1: fiction and kill Bill on the show before.

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Speaker 3: I mean, we still need to redo our kill Bill episode.

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Speaker 3: I know, I thought that was a raised from existence.

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Speaker 1: Yes, so we did at one point. It was our

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Speaker 1: first episode ever and we didn't know what we were

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Speaker 1: talking about. So we'll REDI that at some point. But

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think, like a lot of people, I'm

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Speaker 1: very kind of hit and miss on Tarantino. Like obviously,

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Speaker 1: he's very technically talented, and you know, I'm never gonna

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Speaker 1: judge someone for enjoying his work. Kill Bill is still

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Speaker 1: one of my favorite movies ever, for all of its flaws. So,

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Speaker 1: I mean, yes, as far as Tarantino goes, I it

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Speaker 1: feels like almost an impossible discussion to have. Creatively, he's

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Speaker 1: hit or missed for me, He's made stuff that I

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Speaker 1: really love. I think that it's I don't know. His

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Speaker 1: history on race is very talked about and occurred yes,

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Speaker 1: it's I don't know. He's such a complicated person to

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Speaker 1: talk about because he's written women characters in particular that

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Speaker 1: I have a lot of love for and had influence

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Speaker 1: on me. But at the same time, you have the

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Speaker 1: kill Bill example, when during the Me Too movement, it

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Speaker 1: came out that Uma Thurman was extremely injured on the

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Speaker 1: set of Kill Bill, and Tarantino did nothing to help her,

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Speaker 1: And so it's and.

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Speaker 3: He was the reason why, Like he yeah, he pushed,

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Speaker 3: he instructed her to drive like basically do a very

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Speaker 3: unsafe stunt, and then she got badly injured because of it.

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Speaker 1: And I think, you know, sometimes even the things I

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Speaker 1: enjoy about him creatively doesn't come through in his personal

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Speaker 1: life or personal record whatsoever. Anyways, Jackie Brown, I had

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Speaker 1: seen it once before. I remember one liking it too,

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Speaker 1: being like it's so long. I still feel that way now, Yeah, Caitlin,

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Speaker 1: what's your history with Jackie Brown?

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Speaker 3: I had never seen it before. This was I think

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Speaker 3: the one Tarantino movie that I had yet to watch.

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Speaker 3: It's been on my list for a long time, but

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Speaker 3: I just didn't get around to it until I had

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Speaker 3: an excuse to do so for this podcast and I'm

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Speaker 3: glad I finally watched it. I quite enjoyed it. I

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Speaker 3: would rank it toward the top of my list of

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Speaker 3: Tarantino movies because I think so too. Yeah, same with

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Speaker 3: everyone else. I mean, he is a bit hit or miss.

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Speaker 4: For me.

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Speaker 3: I generally like most of his movies, but Hateful Eight,

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Speaker 3: for example, I couldn't stand it. I did not like

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Speaker 3: Once upon a Time in Hollywood at all. Other ones

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Speaker 3: I like a bit more kill Bill is similarly my

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Speaker 3: favorite of his. But yeah, Jackie Brown, I think it's

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Speaker 3: an interesting departure to some degree from his other work,

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Speaker 3: and I found it just like refreshing and fun to watch,

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Speaker 3: and I really like the characters and performances, and there's

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Speaker 3: just a lot of interesting things going on that we

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Speaker 3: will discuss.

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Speaker 1: But I definitely agree. I think it's like one of

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Speaker 1: my especially because I think the last time I watched it,

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Speaker 1: I was in college or something, and I mean I

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Speaker 1: liked it the first time. I liked it even better

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Speaker 1: this time because I feel like I just know more

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Speaker 1: about the actors and had more interest in the context,

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Speaker 1: and the context of this movie is really fascinating. So

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Speaker 1: there's so much to.

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Speaker 3: Talk about, for sure. Shall I do the recap and

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Speaker 3: we'll go from there.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it, and Sadia feels free to jump in

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Speaker 1: at any point.

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Speaker 4: Thank you.

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Speaker 3: Okay, Well, again, this is a long movie, although it's

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Speaker 3: not even long by today's standards. Every movie that comes

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Speaker 3: out is three hours long, and it's like, only Titanic

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Speaker 3: should be that long anyway.

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Speaker 4: I mean, Titanic shouldn't have been that long either.

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Speaker 5: Really, come on, Oh don't sorry, I didn't realize that.

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Speaker 4: I want to you.

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Speaker 3: I don't disagree. I could do an edit of Titanic

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Speaker 3: that is two and a half hours, which would cut

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Speaker 3: forty five minutes out of the runtime.

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Speaker 1: So no way, no way, no way.

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Speaker 5: I think only Mob movies should be three hours long

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Speaker 5: because the Mob ones.

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Speaker 4: I love them. I don't know why everybody's gonna die

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Speaker 4: and lose the money. I know that, but I.

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Speaker 1: Just like Barbie was an hour fifty two and I

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Speaker 1: celebrated that both times. I was like, wow, I didn't

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Speaker 1: even know it was legal to make a movie under

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Speaker 1: two hours anymore.

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Speaker 3: Yeay, anyway, okay, So here it is the recap for

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Speaker 3: Jackie Brown. We briefly meet a flight attendant for Cabo

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Speaker 3: Air named Jackie Brown. Played by Pam Greer.

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Speaker 1: I felt very film bro proud of myself during the

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Speaker 1: opening shot where I was like, hey, this is the

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Speaker 1: chef from a graduate and it is this, I was like, Wow,

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Speaker 1: this is normally something that a guy would yell at.

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Speaker 3: Me, but now you're the one yelling.

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Speaker 1: I am the yelling at No. One.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. So then we cut to Ordell played by Samuel L. Jackson,

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Speaker 3: who is an arms dealer talking about guns to Lewis

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Speaker 3: played by Robert de Niro. Ordell has a girlfriend, Melanie,

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Speaker 3: who we meet played by Bridget Fonda, who he does

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Speaker 3: not treat very well. FYI, and we also learned that

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Speaker 3: Ordell has half a million dollars in cash stashed in

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Speaker 3: Then Ordell gets a call from his pal Beaumont, who

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Speaker 3: needs to be bailed out of jail. So Ordell and

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Speaker 3: Lewis go to a bail bondsman named Max Cherry played

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Speaker 3: by Robert Forster. Ordell pays for Beaumont to be bailed

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Speaker 3: out of jail, and then he pays Beaumont a visit

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Speaker 3: he's played by Chris Tucker, and then Ordell shoots and

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Speaker 3: kills Beaumont because Ordell figured that Beaumont would rat him

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Speaker 3: out to avoid a long jail sentence. Then we cut

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Speaker 3: back to Jackie Brown at Lax after one of her

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Speaker 3: flight attendant shifts and two cops approach her, Mark and

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Speaker 3: Ray played by Michael Bowen and Michael Keaton, and they

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Speaker 3: want to look in Jackie Brown's bag where they find

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Speaker 3: fifty thousand dollars in cash and they know that she's

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Speaker 3: smuggling it and they want to know who and Cabo

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Speaker 3: gave it to her and who in the US she's

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Speaker 3: giving it too, but she refuses to talk. But then

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Speaker 3: they find a little baggie of cocaine with the cash,

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Speaker 3: so then she is arrested and thrown in jail for

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Speaker 3: possession with the intent to distribute, which is a bogus

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Speaker 3: thing which they comment on, but anyway, she's arrested and

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Speaker 3: thrown in jail and her bail is set at ten

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Speaker 3: thousand dollars. So Ordell goes back to the bail bondsman,

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Speaker 3: Max Cherry, wanting to transfer the ten thousand dollars bond

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Speaker 3: that he paid for Beaumont and transfer it over to

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Speaker 3: Jackie Brown. So Max goes and bails Jackie out of jail,

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Speaker 3: and he sees her and he's like Hubba hubba a wooga, who's's.

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Speaker 1: That in love? Att first cites her.

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Speaker 3: And then he takes her for a drink to discuss

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Speaker 3: her options, like kind of what she should do moving forward,

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Speaker 3: and then he drops her off at home. Ordell then

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Speaker 3: goes to Jackie's house, and it seems like he plans

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Speaker 3: to kill Jackie for the same reason he killed Beaumont.

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Speaker 3: He doesn't want anyone ratting him out, but she assures

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Speaker 3: him that she didn't tell the cops anything. But she

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Speaker 3: also realizes that his intentions might be malicious and that

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Speaker 3: he might be trying to kill her, so she pulls

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Speaker 3: a gun on him that she stole from Max Cherry,

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Speaker 3: and then she negotiates a deal with Ordell so that

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Speaker 3: he won't be put away in prison and where she

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Speaker 3: will be set up financially if she does have to

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Speaker 3: go to jail. The next morning, Max Cherry comes over

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Speaker 3: to Jackie Brown's house to get his gun back, and

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Speaker 3: she invites him in for coffee, and they're listening to

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Speaker 3: and music and they're kind of vibing, and she tells

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Speaker 3: him that she does not actually intend to cooperate with

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Speaker 3: Ordell and that she's going to try to make a

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Speaker 3: deal with the cops because she's fearful for her future,

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Speaker 3: her financial security. Things like that.

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Speaker 1: I will say Jackie throughout this movie, she's I mean,

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Speaker 1: we'll talk about what an incredible character she is, But

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Speaker 1: I just kept thinking about how many times if I

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Speaker 1: were Jackie that I would have forgotten something that I

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Speaker 1: told someone. I was like, wow, I'm not smart enough

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Speaker 1: to play the four D game of chess that she's playing.

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Speaker 1: Because sometimes I'm like wait what and I'm like, oh, right,

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Speaker 1: she's a genius, Like.

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Speaker 3: Like is she keeping a diary? Like I don't know

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Speaker 3: how she got drug?

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Speaker 5: And even just caring about you know, having that portrayal

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Speaker 5: of someone caring about their like financial freedom, their finances,

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Speaker 5: their future. That's like something I never saw before either, really,

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Speaker 5: you know.

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Speaker 4: So that's like she's a smart like she's yeah, she's

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Speaker 4: very admirable.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, she's so cool and just like even objectively and

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Speaker 1: like her memory and ability to like juggle five thousand

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Speaker 1: things at once is incredible. She's such a cool character

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Speaker 1: for sure.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, so kind of out sorry do you ever lie, Jamie?

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Speaker 4: Because I am bad at lying.

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Speaker 5: So I think that's why I would have got shot, like,

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Speaker 5: you know, I would have got shut.

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Speaker 1: I definitely like I feel like outside of like small

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Speaker 1: like like little white lie kind of things, and even

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Speaker 1: sometimes I lose track of those, and then I'd be like,

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Speaker 1: oh wait, I told that weird lie trying to impress

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Speaker 1: someone once and now I've accidentally told them myself. Anyways,

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Speaker 1: I couldn't do what she did. I would be dead

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Speaker 1: in the first twenty minutes.

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Speaker 3: So same, Yeah, I couldn't keep anything straight. Yeah, Okay.

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Speaker 3: Then we see Jackie meeting with those cops, Mark and

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Speaker 3: Ray telling them about her dealings with Ordell, and then

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00:17:00,440 --> 00:17:02,960
Speaker 3: she meets with Ordell again and makes him think that

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Speaker 3: she's working with the cops as a cover and that

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Speaker 3: she is still loyal to him, and they make a

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Speaker 3: plan where they will need two women to be and

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Speaker 3: they specify women. They're like, it needs to be women

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Speaker 3: to be kind of like intermediaries between Jackie and Ordell

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Speaker 3: as far as like handing off the money to trick

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Speaker 3: the cops into following the wrong woman during these couple

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Speaker 3: different handoffs that they will be doing in order for

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Speaker 3: Jackie to get this half million dollars from Cabo to

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Speaker 3: Ordell in Los Angeles, where the story takes place, by

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Speaker 3: the way, ever heard of it? Ever heard of it?

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Speaker 3: Then Ordell leaves this meeting with Jackie, but then he

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Speaker 3: sees Max run into Jackie and they're chatting, and He's like,

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Speaker 3: what the fuck? Like, do they know each other? What's

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Speaker 3: going on here? So now he's suspicious.

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Speaker 4: He's so insecure, isn't he?

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Speaker 5: Like?

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Speaker 1: Ah truly and it is always his downfall. Same with

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Speaker 1: the de Niro character too.

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Speaker 3: Oh yeah for sure, yep. I can't wait to talk

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Speaker 3: about male fragility with these characters.

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Speaker 1: My feet at top.

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Speaker 3: Okay, So everyone goes through with this trial run of

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Speaker 3: Jackie handing off ten thousand dollars to a woman named Shiranda.

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Speaker 3: She's one of Ordell's many girlfriends, and this is happening

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Speaker 3: at a mall food court, and then Shiranda will then

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Speaker 3: hand it off the cash to Ordell.

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Speaker 1: I wrote not to brag, but I wrote a story

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Speaker 1: about mall food courts earlier this year, and there are

334
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Speaker 1: so many iconic movie scenes that happen in mall food courts.

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Speaker 1: I think the Jackie Brown scene is way up there.

336
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Speaker 1: It was tied for me internally eighth grade. I was

337
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Speaker 1: gonna say eighth grade, impactful mall food court seemed to.

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Speaker 3: Me personally, they're some good ones. Yeah, fast times at

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Speaker 3: Ridgemont High. I feel like has.

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Speaker 1: And clueless has one. I love them all. I love

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Speaker 1: a food court. I love drama at set location.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: Same, Okay, So this handoff happens and the cops are

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Speaker 3: there watching. Max is also there, and it seems like

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Speaker 3: Max and Jackie are becoming somewhat of an item. He

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Speaker 3: also notices another woman, Simone, who is involved in this handoff,

347
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Speaker 3: who the cops are not aware of, so she's like

348
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Speaker 3: the second woman who's there to be tricksy basically. Then

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Speaker 3: Jackie goes to see Ordell and they hash out the

350
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Speaker 3: second handoff of the half million dollars. So this time

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Speaker 3: Jackie will hand off the money in a fitting room

352
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Speaker 3: at a department store at the same mall. Now the

353
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Speaker 3: exact plan with all of these like changes in the

354
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Speaker 3: amounds are sunny. Yeah, I got confused because now Simone

355
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Speaker 3: is not involved, but Ordell's girlfriend Melanie.

356
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Speaker 1: Is well because Simone didn't Simone get ten thousand dollars

357
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Speaker 1: during the trial run And then she's like, I'm od

358
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Speaker 1: of hearing and we were like good girl smoney.

359
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Speaker 3: Yes, but it's unclear like who knows what or I

360
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Speaker 3: forget like which information. It's just like it's all a

361
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Speaker 3: bit confusing.

362
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Speaker 5: It becomes so much about who you can trust at

363
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Speaker 5: this point because there's no logic, sensors gone out.

364
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Speaker 4: Of the windows.

365
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Speaker 5: So yeah, it is about like you've got instinct, then

366
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Speaker 5: who's going to let you down?

367
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Speaker 4: Or can you afford to risk everything on? You know?

368
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Speaker 5: This weird situation. But it was so strange because I've

369
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Speaker 5: never had smuggle. I have to keep saying that, but

370
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Speaker 5: we believe, you know, like please believe you guys. But

371
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Speaker 5: actually we could all do the We're three women, we

372
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Speaker 5: could do the test one. No, I'm just saying that, true. Yeah,

373
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Speaker 5: it is, so it's weird how real this all felt,

374
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Speaker 5: even though the stakes were so high and not very

375
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Speaker 5: day to day.

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Speaker 4: Yeah.

377
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Speaker 3: Absolutely, Yeah, it feels very grounded, especially for a Tarantino movie.

378
00:21:24,840 --> 00:21:30,600
Speaker 3: It's I would probably his most grounded one. Yeah. Anyway, Also,

379
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Speaker 3: while all of this is happening, it seems like Jackie

380
00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:39,399
Speaker 3: intends to only hand off fifty thousand dollars of the

381
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Speaker 3: money to whoever's going to get it to Ordell, and

382
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Speaker 3: that she's going to run off with the rest, and

383
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Speaker 3: she's kind of co conspiring with Max about this plan.

384
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Speaker 3: Then it's time for the big exchange, so Jackie heads

385
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Speaker 3: to the mall, as does Max, as does Lewis and Melanie,

386
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Speaker 3: and Jackie hands off the fifty thousand dollars to Melanie

387
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Speaker 3: in the dressing room, and then Jackie leaves the remaining

388
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Speaker 3: half million dollars in the dressing room on purpose, and

389
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Speaker 3: then she rushes out of the store and calls for Ray,

390
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Speaker 3: the Michael Keaton cop, and she tells him that Melanie

391
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Speaker 3: burst into the dressing room and took all of the

392
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Speaker 3: money and ran out, so she's spinning this web of lies.

393
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Speaker 1: Yarns. Yeah.

394
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Speaker 3: Then we flash back to this exchange from Melanie and

395
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Speaker 3: Lewis's point of view. Louis is on edge. He's being

396
00:22:41,560 --> 00:22:45,959
Speaker 3: aggressive and awful, and then after the handoff, he keeps

397
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Speaker 3: getting lost in the department store and then in the

398
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Speaker 3: parking lot, and Melanie keeps taunting him about it, and

399
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Speaker 3: he blows a gasket and shoots and kills Melanie in

400
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Speaker 3: the parking lot.

401
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Speaker 1: Which I forgot about and did not see coming and

402
00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: was quite shocked.

403
00:23:03,040 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 3: It happens really abruptly, yeah.

404
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:07,520
Speaker 1: Yeah.

405
00:23:07,600 --> 00:23:10,920
Speaker 3: Then we get the exchange from Max's point of view

406
00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 3: where he watches Jackie come out of the dressing room,

407
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 3: and then he goes in and retrieves the bag with

408
00:23:18,359 --> 00:23:21,320
Speaker 3: the half million dollars in cash, and he leaves the

409
00:23:21,359 --> 00:23:28,479
Speaker 3: mall cut two Louis picking up Ordell, and Lewis is like,

410
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Speaker 3: by the way, I shot Melanie, and Ordell is not

411
00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,600
Speaker 3: mad about it, but he is mad when he looks

412
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Speaker 3: in the bag and discovers that only forty thousand dollars

413
00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,280
Speaker 3: is in there, not the full half million, and he

414
00:23:47,400 --> 00:23:50,560
Speaker 3: suspects that it was Jackie Brown who stole it. And

415
00:23:50,560 --> 00:23:52,440
Speaker 3: then Lewis is like, oh, wait a minute, I did

416
00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,760
Speaker 3: see Max Cherry in the department store, but I didn't

417
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Speaker 3: even think anything of it. But it is by yeah,

418
00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:03,840
Speaker 3: and Ordella is like, well, you're bad at your job,

419
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,040
Speaker 3: and then he shoots and kills Lewis.

420
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Speaker 1: Yeah.

421
00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:09,840
Speaker 3: Which It's funny to see a Robert de Niro character

422
00:24:09,960 --> 00:24:13,080
Speaker 3: being bad at crime, because in most of his other

423
00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,920
Speaker 3: movies he's pretty good at crime.

424
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Speaker 1: I really enjoyed, Like, I mean, obviously his character is horrible,

425
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:25,159
Speaker 1: but I feel like it's, Yeah, it's really rare to

426
00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:28,320
Speaker 1: see him in like a very like I don't know,

427
00:24:29,359 --> 00:24:33,359
Speaker 1: like Lewis is a diption outside of being like he yeah,

428
00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: he's like a total dufeist like he. I don't know.

429
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Speaker 1: I think I just associate de Niro characters with like

430
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: hyper competence that I'm like, Wow, he's really not gonna

431
00:24:42,720 --> 00:24:45,040
Speaker 1: get He's not He's got nothing to hide. He's just

432
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Speaker 1: not good at this.

433
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Speaker 3: There's a scene I think he might be really high

434
00:24:48,960 --> 00:24:51,040
Speaker 3: and that's why he's acting this way. But he's like

435
00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:54,840
Speaker 3: spacing out after he has called Simone to try to

436
00:24:54,880 --> 00:24:57,840
Speaker 3: figure out where she is, and he's like trying to

437
00:24:57,920 --> 00:25:01,240
Speaker 3: hang up the phone and he keeps spending it around

438
00:25:01,280 --> 00:25:04,000
Speaker 3: because he can't figure out how to hang up this

439
00:25:04,119 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 3: landline and it's just it's great. Uh Anyway, So Ordell

440
00:25:10,359 --> 00:25:13,760
Speaker 3: shoots and kills Lewis for being bad at his job,

441
00:25:13,840 --> 00:25:19,280
Speaker 3: and then he hides out at Sharonda's place. Then we

442
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,639
Speaker 3: cut to Ray questioning Jackie Brown, and he's just like,

443
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:27,360
Speaker 3: what the hell happened? Because of what Jackie told him,

444
00:25:27,560 --> 00:25:30,200
Speaker 3: he thinks that, you know, she tried to hand off

445
00:25:30,240 --> 00:25:34,040
Speaker 3: this fifty thousand dollars to Melanie and that Melanie ran

446
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:37,119
Speaker 3: off with it and that's why Melanie got shot, and

447
00:25:37,200 --> 00:25:40,439
Speaker 3: he has no idea about this half million dollars that

448
00:25:40,600 --> 00:25:45,600
Speaker 3: Max has. But Ray feels that he now has enough

449
00:25:45,680 --> 00:25:50,080
Speaker 3: evidence to convict Ordell because he's been after Ordell this

450
00:25:50,160 --> 00:25:53,119
Speaker 3: whole time. But before the cops can get to Ordell,

451
00:25:53,920 --> 00:25:57,880
Speaker 3: Ordell and Max have a conversation where Ordell is like, Okay,

452
00:25:58,080 --> 00:26:02,000
Speaker 3: I know you helped Jackie steal money, so she needs

453
00:26:02,080 --> 00:26:04,160
Speaker 3: to give it back or I'm going to kill her.

454
00:26:04,640 --> 00:26:08,199
Speaker 3: And so Max tells Ordell that Jackie does want to

455
00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 3: give the money back. So they head to Max's office

456
00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 3: where Jackie and the money are and Ordell comes into

457
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:23,080
Speaker 3: the office, but it's a setup and the cops are there,

458
00:26:23,400 --> 00:26:28,680
Speaker 3: and Ray jumps out and shoots Ordell. Then we cut

459
00:26:28,680 --> 00:26:33,399
Speaker 3: to three days later. Jackie has the half million dollars

460
00:26:33,760 --> 00:26:38,520
Speaker 3: that only Max knows about of the people who are

461
00:26:38,560 --> 00:26:41,960
Speaker 3: still alive at least, and she's given some of it

462
00:26:42,200 --> 00:26:45,320
Speaker 3: to Max for helping, and then she says goodbye to Max.

463
00:26:46,080 --> 00:26:49,159
Speaker 3: They kiss, she tells him she's headed to Spain.

464
00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:52,399
Speaker 1: Kiss it's it's fine.

465
00:26:52,680 --> 00:26:53,919
Speaker 3: Really, I was like, uh.

466
00:26:54,480 --> 00:26:56,480
Speaker 1: I thought it was a good kiss. I don't know,

467
00:26:56,800 --> 00:26:59,920
Speaker 1: maybe it was just early sure.

468
00:27:00,800 --> 00:27:03,320
Speaker 3: But she tells him she's heading to Spain, and then

469
00:27:03,320 --> 00:27:08,960
Speaker 3: the movie ends with her driving off. So that's the movie.

470
00:27:09,040 --> 00:27:11,760
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

471
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:20,639
Speaker 3: to discuss and we're back.

472
00:27:21,200 --> 00:27:26,480
Speaker 1: Yes, where shall we start, Well, let's do some context

473
00:27:26,680 --> 00:27:30,520
Speaker 1: corner and then yeah, go from there. Excellent.

474
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:38,440
Speaker 3: Okay, So basically prior to this movie, Tarantino had directed

475
00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:42,919
Speaker 3: Reservoir Dogs and Pulp Fiction, and he had you know,

476
00:27:43,160 --> 00:27:47,440
Speaker 3: written and starred in a few other movies before this,

477
00:27:47,680 --> 00:27:50,359
Speaker 3: and all of that has had cemented him as this

478
00:27:50,440 --> 00:27:54,919
Speaker 3: kind of like Indie Darling director that also had box

479
00:27:54,960 --> 00:27:59,520
Speaker 3: office appeal, who also had this very distinct style. So

480
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:01,879
Speaker 3: he's on his way to being this like, you know,

481
00:28:02,200 --> 00:28:04,680
Speaker 3: a tour status.

482
00:28:04,240 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: And also I feel like something that also carries through

483
00:28:07,000 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: and Jackie Brown is like he was already gaining this

484
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,080
Speaker 1: reputation as someone who is able to like revive an

485
00:28:13,119 --> 00:28:16,560
Speaker 1: actor's career, because I feel like John Travolta's career was

486
00:28:16,600 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: really sort of kickstarted again by Pulp Fiction. I feel

487
00:28:20,119 --> 00:28:24,160
Speaker 1: like Pam Greer's career here and Max Cherry, who I

488
00:28:24,200 --> 00:28:25,359
Speaker 1: had not heard of.

489
00:28:25,280 --> 00:28:30,200
Speaker 3: This actor Robert Forster, Yeah, he was bigger in I

490
00:28:30,240 --> 00:28:33,240
Speaker 3: think the late sixties and seventies, but by the time

491
00:28:33,960 --> 00:28:36,679
Speaker 3: this movie was being cast, he didn't even have like

492
00:28:36,720 --> 00:28:40,200
Speaker 3: an agent or a manager, like his career was basically over.

493
00:28:40,840 --> 00:28:43,760
Speaker 1: And then we got nominated for a goddamn Oscar. I

494
00:28:43,760 --> 00:28:45,960
Speaker 1: think that Pam Greer should have been also nominated for

495
00:28:46,280 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: Oscar like but anyways, yes, yeah.

496
00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:55,000
Speaker 3: So anyway, Tarantino acquired the rights to three Elmore Leonard

497
00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:57,760
Speaker 3: novels because he wanted to make at least one of

498
00:28:57,800 --> 00:29:01,600
Speaker 3: them into a movie. He wasn't sure which one. One

499
00:29:01,600 --> 00:29:05,440
Speaker 3: of these novels is called rum Punch, which is the

500
00:29:05,440 --> 00:29:09,200
Speaker 3: one that Tarantino decided to adapt, and it was his

501
00:29:09,240 --> 00:29:13,280
Speaker 3: first time adapting anything. And so the significant thing here

502
00:29:13,440 --> 00:29:17,160
Speaker 3: is that in the book rum Punch, the main character,

503
00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:22,600
Speaker 3: Jackie Burke, is a white woman, and Tarantino rewrote the

504
00:29:22,720 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 3: character as a black woman, Jackie Brown, with Pam Grier

505
00:29:27,240 --> 00:29:32,160
Speaker 3: in mine specifically yea, yeah exactly, so like Jackie Brown's

506
00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:37,040
Speaker 3: last name is a nod to her character in Foxy Brown,

507
00:29:37,960 --> 00:29:43,360
Speaker 3: which is a famous nineteen seventies blacksploitation film. Now, as

508
00:29:43,400 --> 00:29:46,800
Speaker 3: far as why Tarantino made this change, I couldn't find

509
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,240
Speaker 3: anything super explicit or specific, but it just seems like

510
00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:55,560
Speaker 3: he wanted to pay homage to blacksplotation film and pay

511
00:29:55,600 --> 00:30:00,440
Speaker 3: homage to Pam Greer and her career as an actor

512
00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:05,000
Speaker 3: in these nineteen seventies blax quotation films such as Foxy

513
00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,120
Speaker 3: Brown and Coffee Right.

514
00:30:07,160 --> 00:30:09,200
Speaker 1: I was reading that there was a bunch of because

515
00:30:09,200 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 1: I have not seen either of those movies, but I

516
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 1: guess that there's a bunch of references to them. Yes,

517
00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,320
Speaker 1: within Jackie Brown. I was Yeah, for what I was

518
00:30:16,360 --> 00:30:19,160
Speaker 1: able to gather, it just it seems like what you're saying,

519
00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:23,320
Speaker 1: and that he just wanted to meet Pam Greer really bad.

520
00:30:23,440 --> 00:30:28,080
Speaker 1: Clay question Mark, Yeah, I was. I mean, especially with

521
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:33,120
Speaker 1: conversations about Tarantino, and because the Uma Thorntman story kind

522
00:30:33,160 --> 00:30:36,280
Speaker 1: of haunts me so much because I have so much

523
00:30:36,320 --> 00:30:39,320
Speaker 1: love for kill Bill and what happened to her on

524
00:30:39,360 --> 00:30:41,040
Speaker 1: the side of that movie was so terrible. I was like,

525
00:30:41,080 --> 00:30:44,560
Speaker 1: how did Pam Greer feel about working with this man?

526
00:30:45,440 --> 00:30:49,920
Speaker 1: It turns out pretty good, which is great. I'm I

527
00:30:49,960 --> 00:30:54,160
Speaker 1: am glad that Pamger had a good experience, But yeah,

528
00:30:54,280 --> 00:30:55,880
Speaker 1: it sounds like he just sort of sought her out

529
00:30:55,920 --> 00:30:57,520
Speaker 1: and was like, Hey, I wrote this for you. Do

530
00:30:57,560 --> 00:31:01,600
Speaker 1: you want to be super fame miss again and she

531
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:01,920
Speaker 1: was like.

532
00:31:01,920 --> 00:31:05,280
Speaker 3: Yes, yes, although she did not realize that the part

533
00:31:05,400 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 3: was written for her, because when Tarantino sent her the script,

534
00:31:09,240 --> 00:31:12,080
Speaker 3: she didn't take it very seriously because she thought he

535
00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:14,800
Speaker 3: was sending it to her because she was being considered

536
00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:19,160
Speaker 3: for the much smaller role of Melanie. And so she's

537
00:31:19,280 --> 00:31:23,840
Speaker 3: just like whatever. And then when Tarantino called her, he's like, no,

538
00:31:24,160 --> 00:31:28,440
Speaker 3: I want you as Jackie Brown, and she's like, oh

539
00:31:28,520 --> 00:31:34,720
Speaker 3: yeah tight. So, like we said, this movie revitalized her

540
00:31:34,920 --> 00:31:39,760
Speaker 3: career because she had come to fame in the seventies

541
00:31:40,040 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: with these various bl exploitation films, and then her career

542
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:47,680
Speaker 3: kind of tapered off after that, and.

543
00:31:47,600 --> 00:31:52,360
Speaker 1: She she turned forty, which is not allowed, not.

544
00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,960
Speaker 3: Allowed if you're a woman. That is sort of the

545
00:31:57,000 --> 00:32:02,240
Speaker 3: context that we are working with that I feel like

546
00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:11,840
Speaker 3: could transition into a conversation about Tarantino's handling of race. Yeah,

547
00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 3: because as we said, he makes choices and he's he's

548
00:32:17,920 --> 00:32:20,960
Speaker 3: got a checkered history when it comes to treatment of

549
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:25,200
Speaker 3: race in his movies, where, for example, you know, he

550
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 3: cast himself in pulp fiction as a character who very

551
00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:31,080
Speaker 3: casually throws around.

552
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:31,400
Speaker 1: The n word.

553
00:32:32,080 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 3: Yeah, he's also, you know, one of the few white

554
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:39,560
Speaker 3: directors of that time who was even willing to address

555
00:32:39,680 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 3: race in his movies at all and willing to cast

556
00:32:44,880 --> 00:32:47,720
Speaker 3: I would say, more actors of color in his movies

557
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 3: than most other big name auteur white guy directors of

558
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 3: that time. Again not saying that he handles race well

559
00:32:56,600 --> 00:32:59,600
Speaker 3: every time he does it. But there are interesting things

560
00:32:59,640 --> 00:33:03,000
Speaker 3: happen in this movie, one of the main ones being

561
00:33:03,000 --> 00:33:06,560
Speaker 3: the thing we mentioned of him specifically rewriting, because this

562
00:33:06,640 --> 00:33:12,200
Speaker 3: almost never happens, where oftentimes, in a book a character

563
00:33:12,440 --> 00:33:14,880
Speaker 3: will be a person of color, and then when a

564
00:33:14,960 --> 00:33:18,120
Speaker 3: director gets their hands on it, they adapt it and

565
00:33:18,160 --> 00:33:22,520
Speaker 3: whitewash it and now the character is suddenly white. It

566
00:33:22,680 --> 00:33:27,200
Speaker 3: very rarely happens in the reverse. And I mean him

567
00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:31,840
Speaker 3: wanting to pay homage to black exploitation films, is I

568
00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:32,160
Speaker 3: don't know.

569
00:33:32,160 --> 00:33:32,800
Speaker 1: I mean, do you.

570
00:33:32,760 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 4: Explain black exploitation to me? Please? Is that?

571
00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 5: Like?

572
00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:37,640
Speaker 4: What genre is that? Or you don't have to if

573
00:33:37,640 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 4: you don't.

574
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:43,280
Speaker 3: So it's basically so it's a genre, a subgenre most

575
00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:47,840
Speaker 3: popular in the nineteen seventies, where a lot of black

576
00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:53,040
Speaker 3: filmmakers and the casts were predominantly black. So it was

577
00:33:53,120 --> 00:33:57,680
Speaker 3: like a very black run and black lead group of movies.

578
00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: But they're called black splotation of because they are relying

579
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:06,440
Speaker 3: on different stereotypes a lot of times, like the characters

580
00:34:06,440 --> 00:34:10,160
Speaker 3: were like pimps or drug dealers or gun runners, things

581
00:34:10,200 --> 00:34:10,480
Speaker 3: like that.

582
00:34:11,320 --> 00:34:14,719
Speaker 5: So it's what the name suggested it to be exploiting

583
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:16,520
Speaker 5: the black dive in a way.

584
00:34:17,120 --> 00:34:20,279
Speaker 1: Yeah, although it does feel worth mentioning that the two

585
00:34:20,360 --> 00:34:23,479
Speaker 1: black exploitation movies that Pamger is most famous for were

586
00:34:23,600 --> 00:34:26,680
Speaker 1: written and directed by white director Jack Hill.

587
00:34:27,640 --> 00:34:27,879
Speaker 4: True.

588
00:34:27,960 --> 00:34:31,080
Speaker 3: Yeah, so there are sort of like variations within the genre.

589
00:34:31,600 --> 00:34:33,640
Speaker 3: You know, not all of them are necessarily relying on

590
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:38,239
Speaker 3: stereotypes things like that. But Tarantino wanting to pay homage

591
00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:42,480
Speaker 3: to those films is I don't know, I don't know

592
00:34:42,480 --> 00:34:45,680
Speaker 3: how to feel about it necessarily one way or another.

593
00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:49,320
Speaker 3: And then another thing he does is he has various

594
00:34:49,400 --> 00:34:57,000
Speaker 3: characters comment on race throughout the film. Mostly it's Samuel L. Jackson.

595
00:34:57,719 --> 00:35:00,920
Speaker 3: Another thing to note here is that Tarantino originally wrote

596
00:35:00,960 --> 00:35:06,160
Speaker 3: the part of Ordell for himself. Tarantino was planning for

597
00:35:06,200 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 3: a long time to play Ordell, so.

598
00:35:08,800 --> 00:35:12,799
Speaker 1: Glad he stopped acting in so stressful watching him act

599
00:35:13,080 --> 00:35:13,960
Speaker 1: it really is.

600
00:35:14,960 --> 00:35:19,360
Speaker 3: So after a long time he decided to you know,

601
00:35:19,440 --> 00:35:24,240
Speaker 3: relinquish the part and cast Samuel L. Jackson in the role,

602
00:35:24,520 --> 00:35:27,680
Speaker 3: which I'm again glad he did. I'd much rather watch

603
00:35:27,880 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 3: Samuel L. Jackson on screen than Tarantino. But that lends

604
00:35:34,560 --> 00:35:38,440
Speaker 3: itself to Ordell making different comments about how like when

605
00:35:38,440 --> 00:35:42,080
Speaker 3: he's in Max Cherry's office and Max wants to know, well,

606
00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:44,440
Speaker 3: if you already have ten thousand dollars, why can't you

607
00:35:44,600 --> 00:35:46,640
Speaker 3: just you know, why do you need a bond? Why

608
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:49,960
Speaker 3: can't you take that money and bail out Beaumont? And

609
00:35:50,680 --> 00:35:53,120
Speaker 3: Ordell is like a black man showing up with ten

610
00:35:53,160 --> 00:35:55,359
Speaker 3: thousand dollars in cash. They're gonna want to know how

611
00:35:55,400 --> 00:35:57,759
Speaker 3: I got it. They'll want to keep a chunk of it,

612
00:35:57,800 --> 00:36:00,960
Speaker 3: claiming that there's like court costs all this stuff. So

613
00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:04,480
Speaker 3: he's saying, yeah, that they're gonna make racist assumptions about him,

614
00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:08,360
Speaker 3: and you know, nothing will work out in his favor. Similarly,

615
00:36:08,920 --> 00:36:13,359
Speaker 3: he's talking about when he wants Jackie Brown bailed out,

616
00:36:13,560 --> 00:36:17,319
Speaker 3: and he's commenting on the charge that she has been

617
00:36:17,640 --> 00:36:20,439
Speaker 3: charged with that she you know, was caught with less

618
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:25,120
Speaker 3: than two ounces of cocaine but charged with intent to distribute,

619
00:36:25,400 --> 00:36:27,520
Speaker 3: and he says, you know, a movie star gets caught

620
00:36:27,560 --> 00:36:31,160
Speaker 3: with that same amount, they'd get charged with just possession,

621
00:36:31,320 --> 00:36:34,759
Speaker 3: which is a far less severe crime. But because it's

622
00:36:34,800 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 3: a black woman, she's charged with this bogus, far more

623
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,080
Speaker 3: severe crime.

624
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:45,239
Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, it's again like I don't know, I'm

625
00:36:45,280 --> 00:36:48,960
Speaker 1: like not trying to hand it to Tarantina too much

626
00:36:49,560 --> 00:36:52,920
Speaker 1: because it feels weird too. But yeah, like you were

627
00:36:52,960 --> 00:36:56,239
Speaker 1: saying earlier, Caitlin, it's like this is more commentary you

628
00:36:56,239 --> 00:36:59,680
Speaker 1: would get from a movie by a white director than

629
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,280
Speaker 1: than most directors at this time, and just more commentary

630
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:07,319
Speaker 1: on race in a big movie. In general, beau Vivie

631
00:37:07,440 --> 00:37:08,400
Speaker 1: is super successful.

632
00:37:09,360 --> 00:37:09,640
Speaker 4: Yeah.

633
00:37:10,239 --> 00:37:13,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, So, I mean, I guess my point is like

634
00:37:13,719 --> 00:37:20,480
Speaker 3: I wasn't necessarily expecting to see that in this movie

635
00:37:20,640 --> 00:37:24,239
Speaker 3: because again I didn't really I knew very little about

636
00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,400
Speaker 3: it going in, just that it was a Tarantino movie.

637
00:37:27,440 --> 00:37:27,920
Speaker 1: And again he.

638
00:37:30,360 --> 00:37:34,400
Speaker 3: Based on his treatment of race and him throwing around

639
00:37:34,480 --> 00:37:37,560
Speaker 3: the N word very casually a few years before in

640
00:37:37,600 --> 00:37:42,200
Speaker 3: pulp fiction, but then him turning around and adapting this

641
00:37:42,320 --> 00:37:46,960
Speaker 3: character to specifically include a black woman as the protagonist

642
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,400
Speaker 3: of his movie and framing her in a way that

643
00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,480
Speaker 3: in my opinion, makes her really awesome and like a

644
00:37:54,480 --> 00:38:00,240
Speaker 3: really complex character. And that plus like including other commentary

645
00:38:00,280 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 3: about race. Nothing too extensive in this movie, but again

646
00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:09,160
Speaker 3: it's more than you'd expect from a white director in

647
00:38:09,520 --> 00:38:12,479
Speaker 3: the nineties, which you know, the bar is very low,

648
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 3: and that doesn't necessarily, you know, mean that he should

649
00:38:16,000 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 3: get all these prizes and recognition. But I don't know,

650
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 3: it's complicated.

651
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:26,560
Speaker 1: It's interesting, which like there's I mean, we can link

652
00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:28,560
Speaker 1: this in the description of the episode two because yeah,

653
00:38:28,600 --> 00:38:31,799
Speaker 1: that topic alone there has been so much written about. Yeah,

654
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,840
Speaker 1: it like comes up every time he releases a movie,

655
00:38:35,600 --> 00:38:39,160
Speaker 1: usually because he has once again written it into the movie, right,

656
00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:41,960
Speaker 1: and I know that he is. He and Spike Lee

657
00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: have had this sort of long standing back and forth

658
00:38:45,640 --> 00:38:48,799
Speaker 1: about how Spike Lee feels like Spike Lee has a

659
00:38:49,120 --> 00:38:52,360
Speaker 1: sort of storied history of being like, this is fucking

660
00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 1: weird that you do this this much like knock it off. Yeah,

661
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:57,600
Speaker 1: we can link that in the description because it is

662
00:38:57,680 --> 00:39:01,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I think, very relevant. And also there's it

663
00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:06,240
Speaker 1: like infinite there is like twenty plus years of debate

664
00:39:07,560 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: about his use of the N word in movies, which

665
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:15,000
Speaker 1: is absolutely wild and this movie was another example of

666
00:39:15,040 --> 00:39:17,960
Speaker 1: like there was a wave of discourse like that in

667
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:21,279
Speaker 1: nineteen ninety seven. So for longer than some of our

668
00:39:21,320 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 1: listeners have been alive, this conversation has been going on.

669
00:39:25,120 --> 00:39:28,839
Speaker 5: For the listeners who haven't heard like his rationale if

670
00:39:28,840 --> 00:39:32,160
Speaker 5: you want to call it rationale, Like does he explain?

671
00:39:32,239 --> 00:39:35,000
Speaker 4: He does he ever own why he says it?

672
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:39,759
Speaker 1: So he's commented on it many times. I don't know.

673
00:39:39,800 --> 00:39:44,040
Speaker 1: I mean, I guess everyone react the way react, so

674
00:39:44,239 --> 00:39:46,640
Speaker 1: he sort of in twenty fifteen, I think he had

675
00:39:46,640 --> 00:39:49,040
Speaker 1: his all time worst response to it. When The Hateful

676
00:39:49,080 --> 00:39:51,960
Speaker 1: Eight came out. He did an interview with Brett Easton Ellis,

677
00:39:52,000 --> 00:39:57,640
Speaker 1: which I feel like doesn't help and address this controversy again,

678
00:39:58,320 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 1: saying quote, if you sit through the criticism, you see

679
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:04,759
Speaker 1: it's pretty evenly divided between pros and cons. But when

680
00:40:04,800 --> 00:40:07,720
Speaker 1: black critics came out with savage think pieces about Django,

681
00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:11,239
Speaker 1: Django unchained, I couldn't have cared less. If people don't

682
00:40:11,280 --> 00:40:12,880
Speaker 1: like my movies, they don't like my movies, and if

683
00:40:12,880 --> 00:40:15,760
Speaker 1: they don't get it, it doesn't matter. The bad taste

684
00:40:15,760 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: that was left in my mouth had to do with this.

685
00:40:17,600 --> 00:40:19,239
Speaker 1: It's been a long time since the subject of a

686
00:40:19,280 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 1: writer's skin was mentioned as often as mine. You wouldn't

687
00:40:22,920 --> 00:40:24,719
Speaker 1: think the color of a writer's skin should have any

688
00:40:24,719 --> 00:40:27,359
Speaker 1: effect on the words themselves. In a lot of the

689
00:40:27,360 --> 00:40:30,040
Speaker 1: more ugly pieces, my motives were really brought to bear

690
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: in the most negative way. It's like I'm some super

691
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 1: villain coming up with this stuff unquote, which seems like

692
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:38,000
Speaker 1: playing the victim to a pretty absurd extent.

693
00:40:38,960 --> 00:40:41,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, I really don't understand, who don't.

694
00:40:42,280 --> 00:40:45,240
Speaker 5: This sounds like a very like a lot of words,

695
00:40:45,360 --> 00:40:48,400
Speaker 5: but I didn't get any thread in what.

696
00:40:49,520 --> 00:40:50,399
Speaker 4: Yeah, I don't even get.

697
00:40:50,400 --> 00:40:55,759
Speaker 1: It's those sharp sentences that it's so bizarre too, because

698
00:40:55,760 --> 00:40:59,040
Speaker 1: I mean that reaction. It's I again, like this movie,

699
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:04,240
Speaker 1: I think like Addresses, Like there's a scene between Ordell

700
00:41:04,520 --> 00:41:09,000
Speaker 1: and Max where Max essentially is like, are you appealing

701
00:41:09,040 --> 00:41:12,279
Speaker 1: to my white guilt to get me to do this?

702
00:41:12,360 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 1: And it's like, for I don't know, for a writer,

703
00:41:14,800 --> 00:41:18,600
Speaker 1: that is like trying to interact with those concepts and

704
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:22,399
Speaker 1: these conversations to also say that in such a clueless way,

705
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:28,560
Speaker 1: it's just like, yeah, baffling. Anyways, So we'll link more,

706
00:41:29,280 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: but yeah.

707
00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:32,759
Speaker 3: Let's take a quick break and then we'll come back

708
00:41:33,080 --> 00:41:43,000
Speaker 3: to discuss further and we're back.

709
00:41:43,320 --> 00:41:44,640
Speaker 1: Let's talk about Jackie Brown.

710
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,200
Speaker 3: Yeah, let's do it. Sadia, you had mentioned that you

711
00:41:48,520 --> 00:41:52,640
Speaker 3: related to this character in meaningful ways, so I'm interested

712
00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:55,600
Speaker 3: to hear your thoughts on that.

713
00:41:56,880 --> 00:42:01,360
Speaker 5: I'm just totally blown away by the character and this movie.

714
00:42:01,120 --> 00:42:01,719
Speaker 4: Is about her.

715
00:42:02,000 --> 00:42:04,640
Speaker 5: This is such a strong movie given that the cast,

716
00:42:05,080 --> 00:42:08,360
Speaker 5: the other cast is quite a list past, but she

717
00:42:08,520 --> 00:42:09,759
Speaker 5: just overshadows the.

718
00:42:09,719 --> 00:42:13,479
Speaker 4: Whole film, Like the whole deal is, like you can't

719
00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 4: start watching her.

720
00:42:15,440 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 6: She's sassy, she's real, she's vulnerable, she's flawed, she's a survivor,

721
00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:25,000
Speaker 6: and she's all of those things most of the time,

722
00:42:25,200 --> 00:42:28,960
Speaker 6: and we're we're really with her, and like, you know,

723
00:42:29,000 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 6: it's hard what she's going through, and I don't know, it's.

724
00:42:31,960 --> 00:42:33,919
Speaker 5: Like I don't know, I just I fell in love

725
00:42:33,960 --> 00:42:36,000
Speaker 5: with her so so much. And I think it's also

726
00:42:36,160 --> 00:42:38,120
Speaker 5: like for me when I watched it, it was just

727
00:42:38,160 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 5: like a reminder, like I did get this kind of

728
00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:43,160
Speaker 5: moment where it's like, what I've never seen.

729
00:42:43,000 --> 00:42:43,920
Speaker 4: Anybody like her.

730
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:47,360
Speaker 5: So that added to the impact that she had is

731
00:42:47,400 --> 00:42:49,799
Speaker 5: that this is a figure that we really need to

732
00:42:49,880 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 5: watch and this is a character a person like her

733
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:56,160
Speaker 5: that I love to watch, and I could have continued

734
00:42:56,200 --> 00:42:57,560
Speaker 5: to watch her go to Spain.

735
00:42:57,760 --> 00:42:59,040
Speaker 4: And you know, it wasn't.

736
00:42:58,840 --> 00:43:03,080
Speaker 5: Even about relationship, which is really rare, like I think

737
00:43:03,719 --> 00:43:05,800
Speaker 5: or women is often you know, you want them to

738
00:43:05,920 --> 00:43:08,719
Speaker 5: kind of have a partner or that's a big part

739
00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:11,280
Speaker 5: of the story, if not the story. But this wasn't

740
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:15,040
Speaker 5: about those. That was so secondary and so for her

741
00:43:15,080 --> 00:43:18,320
Speaker 5: to own everything in those in that kind of context,

742
00:43:18,480 --> 00:43:20,640
Speaker 5: for me, it was like I've never seen it before.

743
00:43:21,080 --> 00:43:23,440
Speaker 5: I couldn't start watching it. I wanted her to have

744
00:43:23,480 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 5: all the money. I wanted her to win and I

745
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:27,880
Speaker 5: don't know how, but it was just like it was

746
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:30,920
Speaker 5: really cool, and it just felt she was very honest,

747
00:43:32,120 --> 00:43:34,760
Speaker 5: she'd been through a lot. And yeah, just to repeat,

748
00:43:35,280 --> 00:43:37,080
Speaker 5: I hate repeating myself, but it's just like I think

749
00:43:37,120 --> 00:43:40,000
Speaker 5: it's because there's such an absence of women like her

750
00:43:40,080 --> 00:43:43,440
Speaker 5: on screen that it really like touched me quite a lot.

751
00:43:43,960 --> 00:43:47,160
Speaker 3: Right, I mean, because it's rare to have a movie

752
00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:51,240
Speaker 3: of this genre, you know, like a crime thriller, noir

753
00:43:51,480 --> 00:43:55,520
Speaker 3: type movie that center is a woman as the protagonist

754
00:43:55,680 --> 00:43:58,719
Speaker 3: who we are rooting for, the one where she's like

755
00:43:58,920 --> 00:44:01,719
Speaker 3: the smartest person in the room, in any room she's in,

756
00:44:01,880 --> 00:44:05,359
Speaker 3: she's doing a lot of the planning. She's playing all

757
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:09,479
Speaker 3: of these people like she's she's the one. She comes

758
00:44:09,480 --> 00:44:09,960
Speaker 3: out on top.

759
00:44:10,040 --> 00:44:14,160
Speaker 2: She's not hyper sexualized, which yeah, and you can't be

760
00:44:14,239 --> 00:44:16,120
Speaker 2: bad at her, like even though she's got all of

761
00:44:16,160 --> 00:44:18,239
Speaker 2: the strings, like you know how sometimes you hate like

762
00:44:18,280 --> 00:44:20,680
Speaker 2: the villain in Bond or whatever, Like we're so with her,

763
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:23,399
Speaker 2: even though we're annoyed because we don't know what's going

764
00:44:23,440 --> 00:44:25,200
Speaker 2: on or whatever, we're feeling for her and it's like

765
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:27,080
Speaker 2: we're really going through it as the audience.

766
00:44:27,120 --> 00:44:30,919
Speaker 5: But like she's Yeah, she doesn't really do a lot wrong.

767
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,600
Speaker 5: There's no victim blaming. It's like this sometimes, you know,

768
00:44:33,680 --> 00:44:37,680
Speaker 5: if there's you know, women in crime, it's like we

769
00:44:37,680 --> 00:44:39,680
Speaker 5: we have only like a one D relationship with them

770
00:44:39,719 --> 00:44:42,279
Speaker 5: or something like that. But even though she's a little

771
00:44:42,280 --> 00:44:44,359
Speaker 5: bit flawed, like we're still with her.

772
00:44:44,520 --> 00:44:45,800
Speaker 4: There's no blame here.

773
00:44:45,920 --> 00:44:50,360
Speaker 5: There's really complex and it's kind of just enjoyable to

774
00:44:50,400 --> 00:44:51,880
Speaker 5: see this that you can't start watching.

775
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,440
Speaker 3: Yeah, and yeah, like you were saying, Jamie, she's the

776
00:44:55,480 --> 00:44:59,239
Speaker 3: way that a lot of women in her position as

777
00:44:59,239 --> 00:45:04,120
Speaker 3: a female character in a crime thriller movie, that character

778
00:45:04,160 --> 00:45:06,920
Speaker 3: would be hyper sexualized and or she would be framed

779
00:45:06,960 --> 00:45:10,440
Speaker 3: as like the fem fetal, but that is never how

780
00:45:11,080 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 3: she's represented, and especially for her to be centered as

781
00:45:16,080 --> 00:45:20,960
Speaker 3: the protagonist in a movie like this, especially as a

782
00:45:21,000 --> 00:45:23,600
Speaker 3: black woman, and especially as a black woman who is

783
00:45:24,120 --> 00:45:27,759
Speaker 3: older than thirty or thirty five, Like, these are very

784
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:29,400
Speaker 3: rare things to see.

785
00:45:29,760 --> 00:45:32,520
Speaker 1: And this is I forget when we talked about this, Caitlin,

786
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:35,160
Speaker 1: But I feel like it's like Pam gre the actor

787
00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:39,840
Speaker 1: is over forty when this is filmed. But we also

788
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,960
Speaker 1: I feel like often see actors who are older, but

789
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,839
Speaker 1: they're still playing like a thirty seven year old, and

790
00:45:46,920 --> 00:45:49,560
Speaker 1: in this movie it is stated she is forty four

791
00:45:49,640 --> 00:45:53,040
Speaker 1: years old. And also like does I don't know, like

792
00:45:53,120 --> 00:45:56,040
Speaker 1: also the character matches that because I do think that

793
00:45:56,080 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 1: there is, like even now, like a pressure to eternally

794
00:46:00,320 --> 00:46:03,360
Speaker 1: seem like you are in your late thirties early forties,

795
00:46:03,400 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: even if you're an actor into your fifties and sixties.

796
00:46:07,400 --> 00:46:10,240
Speaker 3: The Sandra Bullock effect, Yeah.

797
00:46:09,680 --> 00:46:13,480
Speaker 1: Totally, and I and it's like has nothing to do

798
00:46:13,960 --> 00:46:17,080
Speaker 1: with the actors. It's all the whatever cultural pressure to

799
00:46:17,160 --> 00:46:21,320
Speaker 1: look at a certain age long after that makes human sense.

800
00:46:22,200 --> 00:46:25,400
Speaker 1: But I liked that like, Yeah, like Jackie Brown is,

801
00:46:27,040 --> 00:46:30,840
Speaker 1: I don't know, I liked how this movie approached age

802
00:46:31,160 --> 00:46:34,759
Speaker 1: as a theme, And I didn't even realize until those

803
00:46:34,840 --> 00:46:37,759
Speaker 1: conversations were had between a few different characters, because I think,

804
00:46:38,000 --> 00:46:41,680
Speaker 1: I mean, Jackie obviously talks about it most explicitly when

805
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:47,000
Speaker 1: she talks about aging with Max and also points out

806
00:46:47,040 --> 00:46:51,520
Speaker 1: how aging for her is framed differently than the way

807
00:46:51,520 --> 00:46:53,440
Speaker 1: it is for him. And I thought that scene was

808
00:46:53,480 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 1: like really great and like beautifully done between them. And

809
00:46:57,719 --> 00:47:01,560
Speaker 1: you also see the freaky DeNiro care talk about aging too,

810
00:47:01,560 --> 00:47:04,879
Speaker 1: because now he can't smoke weed at he are like,

811
00:47:05,800 --> 00:47:08,880
Speaker 1: but it's like everyone like most characters. I don't know

812
00:47:08,960 --> 00:47:11,440
Speaker 1: as much for Ordell, but for like most characters, we

813
00:47:11,480 --> 00:47:16,160
Speaker 1: get to know interact with the idea of aging in

814
00:47:16,200 --> 00:47:19,200
Speaker 1: a way that felt I don't know, like I guess,

815
00:47:19,239 --> 00:47:23,920
Speaker 1: more thoughtful than I was expecting it to. Yeah, And

816
00:47:24,000 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: I think it's like also rare to see you know,

817
00:47:27,040 --> 00:47:31,279
Speaker 1: Pam Career and oh what's the what's Max Cherry's name? Again?

818
00:47:31,360 --> 00:47:35,319
Speaker 1: God damn it? Oh, Robert Forster, Robert Forster to see

819
00:47:35,360 --> 00:47:39,120
Speaker 1: actually like age well, like whatever, I mean, I don't

820
00:47:39,160 --> 00:47:41,360
Speaker 1: want to get into age gap discourse today, but like

821
00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:46,520
Speaker 1: age appropriate older couple as the leading romantic story is

822
00:47:46,920 --> 00:47:52,080
Speaker 1: again just like doesn't really happen even now still and

823
00:47:52,200 --> 00:47:54,319
Speaker 1: I just thought it was I don't know. I liked

824
00:47:54,360 --> 00:47:58,000
Speaker 1: how each character sort of got to explore what that

825
00:47:58,200 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 1: meant to them, And I think that's seen like between

826
00:48:01,360 --> 00:48:05,759
Speaker 1: Jackie and Max illustrates her motivation on why she's doing

827
00:48:05,800 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 1: what she's doing so beautifully and so empathetically and like

828
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:14,040
Speaker 1: you can't watch that scene and not want her to

829
00:48:14,320 --> 00:48:17,560
Speaker 1: get every cent as well.

830
00:48:18,000 --> 00:48:20,000
Speaker 5: Just on the same point as you, Jamie, is that

831
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,759
Speaker 5: I'm not objectifying her. I don't know that sounds really weird,

832
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 5: but in terms of like I'm not fixated with her

833
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,280
Speaker 5: appearance as beautiful as she is, Like that doesn't really

834
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 5: like it's not my central focal point. Like I think

835
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 5: I only realized at the end when that, like you

836
00:48:34,440 --> 00:48:36,640
Speaker 5: said that that kiss happened, that I'm like, she's a

837
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,719
Speaker 5: sexy lady, but like you, I'm seeing her as a

838
00:48:39,800 --> 00:48:42,799
Speaker 5: human and outrounded person. I'm not just like checking her

839
00:48:42,840 --> 00:48:45,520
Speaker 5: out like the whole time, or it's not that she's

840
00:48:45,600 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 5: a Yeah, I think you already made that point about

841
00:48:47,320 --> 00:48:49,359
Speaker 5: her not being sexualized.

842
00:48:50,040 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: Yes, which is like really cool. I don't know, Like

843
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,000
Speaker 1: I again, I just like didn't expect it because Tarantino's

844
00:48:56,200 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: super hidden miss on how he sexualizes his female characters

845
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:03,800
Speaker 1: as well. And you know, there's a bajillion studies about

846
00:49:03,840 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 1: how women of color in general are more likely to

847
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:12,400
Speaker 1: be sexualized in movies that anyone is making, especially in

848
00:49:12,840 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 1: the West, And so I don't know, I just like

849
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,799
Speaker 1: I loved the scene where like Max falls in love

850
00:49:17,800 --> 00:49:21,480
Speaker 1: with Jackie at first sight and she's just walking like.

851
00:49:21,480 --> 00:49:25,960
Speaker 3: She's having spent several days maybe in jail, and she's

852
00:49:26,080 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 3: like disheveled, and she wants to go to like a

853
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,560
Speaker 3: dark bar so that no one can see her because

854
00:49:31,600 --> 00:49:33,680
Speaker 3: she's like, I look like I just got out of jail.

855
00:49:33,680 --> 00:49:36,040
Speaker 3: But he's just like, that's the most beautiful woman I've

856
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:36,759
Speaker 3: ever seen, and.

857
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:37,400
Speaker 1: He's not wrong.

858
00:49:37,520 --> 00:49:40,799
Speaker 3: Like Pam Greer has such a presence on screen, like

859
00:49:41,120 --> 00:49:44,280
Speaker 3: she has just a face that you want to stare

860
00:49:44,360 --> 00:49:46,880
Speaker 3: at for hours and hours and hours, Like it's just

861
00:49:46,880 --> 00:49:50,800
Speaker 3: she's just so magnetic and every man who she encounters

862
00:49:50,840 --> 00:49:54,000
Speaker 3: basically falls in love with her because Max sees her

863
00:49:54,280 --> 00:49:57,360
Speaker 3: it's love at first sight. There are various allusions to

864
00:49:58,080 --> 00:50:01,640
Speaker 3: Ray the Michael Keaton cop liking her, having a crush

865
00:50:01,640 --> 00:50:03,640
Speaker 3: on her. He like takes her out to dinner several

866
00:50:03,680 --> 00:50:07,960
Speaker 3: times to like discuss the case, but like it doesn't

867
00:50:07,960 --> 00:50:09,920
Speaker 3: need to be over dinner, but he's just like, I

868
00:50:10,160 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 3: love I just want to look at her. The bartender.

869
00:50:12,719 --> 00:50:14,839
Speaker 3: It's like a brief, like two second scene, but like

870
00:50:15,320 --> 00:50:21,280
Speaker 3: the bartender at the cockatoo, Inn is like, hey baby.

871
00:50:21,120 --> 00:50:24,880
Speaker 5: But the characters like her can be made. Why why

872
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,480
Speaker 5: aren't they made since then? Or obviously not before? Fine,

873
00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,719
Speaker 5: but like since then, how come it's proven that this

874
00:50:32,800 --> 00:50:37,399
Speaker 5: is a realistic portrayal of a character? Like it's very rare,

875
00:50:37,480 --> 00:50:38,799
Speaker 5: isn't it?

876
00:50:38,560 --> 00:50:40,960
Speaker 1: It does still feel I mean, it's like, yeah, I

877
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:45,400
Speaker 1: feel like there's far fewer examples since Jackie Brown then

878
00:50:45,440 --> 00:50:48,080
Speaker 1: there should be. And I don't know, like I think

879
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,440
Speaker 1: this is probably all Pam Greer, but it feels so

880
00:50:51,040 --> 00:50:55,000
Speaker 1: cool and rare to have a character who is sexy

881
00:50:55,080 --> 00:51:00,239
Speaker 1: but not sexualized, Like I don't I don't know. I mean,

882
00:51:00,400 --> 00:51:02,160
Speaker 1: I think it just has to deal with like her

883
00:51:02,360 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 1: persona and what a good like an amazing actor and

884
00:51:05,600 --> 00:51:08,440
Speaker 1: what an amazing performance this is. But like she's so

885
00:51:09,680 --> 00:51:15,040
Speaker 1: naturally like magnetic and sexy and cool that it's like,

886
00:51:15,680 --> 00:51:18,040
Speaker 1: I don't know, like it feels like this movie just

887
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,480
Speaker 1: lets Pam Greer do her work and perform and just

888
00:51:22,520 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 1: like you have no trouble believing that anyone would fall

889
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: in love.

890
00:51:26,239 --> 00:51:29,160
Speaker 5: With her, And it's so like freeing because I'm not

891
00:51:29,239 --> 00:51:32,800
Speaker 5: focused on her being sexualized. I'm seeing so many different

892
00:51:32,840 --> 00:51:36,719
Speaker 5: aspects of her that I wouldn't if she was being sexualized.

893
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:40,280
Speaker 5: So I'm not saying that there's no room for sexualized characters,

894
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,719
Speaker 5: but I think because it's just always the case that, like,

895
00:51:44,160 --> 00:51:47,920
Speaker 5: because I'm so unpreoccupied with her, like those kind of

896
00:51:48,000 --> 00:51:51,120
Speaker 5: aspects of her, I'm allowed to just let go and

897
00:51:51,160 --> 00:51:54,000
Speaker 5: be in the story and follow her and not just

898
00:51:54,080 --> 00:51:56,759
Speaker 5: parts of her, like I don't. Yeah, it's not focunistic

899
00:51:57,040 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 5: at all. It's just like you're with the character, you're

900
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:02,319
Speaker 5: not we've had because of her looks or because of

901
00:52:02,600 --> 00:52:04,080
Speaker 5: superficial things.

902
00:52:03,880 --> 00:52:06,680
Speaker 1: Right, totally, Yeah, you just need her. I wanted to

903
00:52:07,040 --> 00:52:09,600
Speaker 1: point out one more of the age things because I

904
00:52:09,640 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: just I don't know, I'm like, wow, age is never

905
00:52:11,520 --> 00:52:14,640
Speaker 1: discussed in movies, but the Cops at one point in

906
00:52:15,120 --> 00:52:18,880
Speaker 1: the first scene that Jackie has with the two cops

907
00:52:18,920 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: where they're going through her bag and she's holding her ground.

908
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:26,960
Speaker 1: She's not putting up with like not taking the bait

909
00:52:27,000 --> 00:52:29,440
Speaker 1: after bait after bait that they're throwing at her. And

910
00:52:29,480 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 1: one of those pieces of bait is related to both

911
00:52:32,640 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: her age, race, and class, I think, all in the

912
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:39,000
Speaker 1: same sentence where one of the characters says something akin

913
00:52:39,040 --> 00:52:40,960
Speaker 1: to like, if I was a forty four year old

914
00:52:41,000 --> 00:52:43,080
Speaker 1: black woman with a shitty job, I don't think I

915
00:52:43,080 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: would have another year to throw away, So you better

916
00:52:45,320 --> 00:52:48,440
Speaker 1: cooperate with us. Yeah, And I don't know. It's just

917
00:52:48,480 --> 00:52:51,759
Speaker 1: like such a vile thing to say to her, and

918
00:52:51,800 --> 00:52:55,400
Speaker 1: she just like does I mean, obviously doesn't fall for it.

919
00:52:55,440 --> 00:52:58,880
Speaker 1: She doesn't fall for anyone's bullshit, but it was you know.

920
00:52:59,160 --> 00:53:03,280
Speaker 1: I think that like that line sticks with her because

921
00:53:03,280 --> 00:53:06,000
Speaker 1: it comes up in a roundabout way later in that

922
00:53:06,040 --> 00:53:10,400
Speaker 1: conversation with Max, and her takeaway is like that's the

923
00:53:10,440 --> 00:53:12,759
Speaker 1: reason she's not going to cooperate with the cops. Is

924
00:53:12,800 --> 00:53:18,240
Speaker 1: like she's going to get her fucking eat prey love story,

925
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 1: and like there's totally there's Jackie Brown, two very different vibes. Almost, Well,

926
00:53:27,040 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: that's the thing.

927
00:53:27,560 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 3: Like her motivation is the intersection of her age, her race,

928
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:38,560
Speaker 3: and her class because she and her status as someone

929
00:53:38,600 --> 00:53:43,440
Speaker 3: who has been incarcerated because she has a prior conviction

930
00:53:43,920 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 3: and where she served. I don't know if she served

931
00:53:46,280 --> 00:53:48,520
Speaker 3: jail time, but she was on probation for a while,

932
00:53:48,560 --> 00:53:53,440
Speaker 3: because it's referenced that she was formerly married and her husband,

933
00:53:53,440 --> 00:53:58,120
Speaker 3: who was a pilot, got caught for smuggling drugs I

934
00:53:58,120 --> 00:54:01,480
Speaker 3: think or something and she was his accomplice. So she

935
00:54:02,320 --> 00:54:07,120
Speaker 3: got apprehended by the law to some degree, and it

936
00:54:07,239 --> 00:54:10,000
Speaker 3: made it so that she couldn't get work with the

937
00:54:10,040 --> 00:54:12,640
Speaker 3: major airlines, which is why she's working for Cabo Air,

938
00:54:13,239 --> 00:54:15,440
Speaker 3: which I don't know if that's a real airline or not,

939
00:54:15,560 --> 00:54:19,759
Speaker 3: but in the movie, it's widely known that it's like

940
00:54:19,840 --> 00:54:22,719
Speaker 3: the shittiest airline to work for, and it's you know,

941
00:54:22,800 --> 00:54:25,719
Speaker 3: referenced that she only makes sixteen thousand dollars a year,

942
00:54:26,320 --> 00:54:29,520
Speaker 3: and so she's looking out for herself and she knows

943
00:54:29,520 --> 00:54:33,560
Speaker 3: that like as a black woman in her mid forties

944
00:54:33,840 --> 00:54:37,879
Speaker 3: with a prior arrest or, like you know, something on

945
00:54:37,920 --> 00:54:42,200
Speaker 3: her record, the cards are very much stacked against her,

946
00:54:42,360 --> 00:54:46,080
Speaker 3: and she needs to do whatever it takes to look

947
00:54:46,120 --> 00:54:50,839
Speaker 3: out for herself. And that's why she's like, I'm going

948
00:54:50,920 --> 00:54:54,760
Speaker 3: to steal this half a million dollars from this shitty

949
00:54:54,920 --> 00:55:01,240
Speaker 3: arms dealer who's like bad hit everything, and we're rooting

950
00:55:01,280 --> 00:55:02,359
Speaker 3: for her because of it.

951
00:55:02,480 --> 00:55:03,320
Speaker 4: Did you guys?

952
00:55:03,360 --> 00:55:06,080
Speaker 5: Sorry, we talked about this very briefly at the beginning,

953
00:55:06,480 --> 00:55:09,120
Speaker 5: but did you learn anything about yourselves when you watch

954
00:55:09,200 --> 00:55:11,359
Speaker 5: this that did you think you would do the same

955
00:55:11,400 --> 00:55:14,759
Speaker 5: as her? Or what was your anxiety that was like,

956
00:55:14,800 --> 00:55:16,880
Speaker 5: oh my god, I couldn't do that, Like, what did

957
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 5: you learn about your pelf?

958
00:55:18,160 --> 00:55:21,760
Speaker 3: I would be so afraid of getting murdered by someone

959
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:24,960
Speaker 3: that I and I'm such a rule follower that.

960
00:55:24,920 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 4: I'd be like, okay, so not for you.

961
00:55:27,320 --> 00:55:28,200
Speaker 3: I'm such a baby.

962
00:55:29,000 --> 00:55:30,880
Speaker 4: It was hard. It was hard to decide.

963
00:55:31,360 --> 00:55:35,040
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was also, I mean, I think you mentioned

964
00:55:35,080 --> 00:55:36,719
Speaker 1: it earlier. I was like, I don't know if I

965
00:55:36,719 --> 00:55:41,000
Speaker 1: could keep my facts straight sufficiently morally. I have no

966
00:55:41,080 --> 00:55:45,680
Speaker 1: scruples about what Jackie is doing. And if I were

967
00:55:45,800 --> 00:55:48,680
Speaker 1: in a similar position, I you know, if I thought

968
00:55:48,719 --> 00:55:51,400
Speaker 1: I could pull it off, Yeah, maybe I would try,

969
00:55:51,560 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: but I don't know. I was like, I would need

970
00:55:54,560 --> 00:55:59,200
Speaker 1: someone that I trust to be like wait, what lie?

971
00:55:59,280 --> 00:56:03,000
Speaker 1: Did I tell again? Like I would need someone.

972
00:56:02,840 --> 00:56:05,479
Speaker 3: Well, she trusts Max, and I want to just chat

973
00:56:05,520 --> 00:56:08,319
Speaker 3: about that relationship a little bit more because, like as

974
00:56:08,320 --> 00:56:12,360
Speaker 3: you said, Saudia, it is that relationship is like almost

975
00:56:13,040 --> 00:56:15,839
Speaker 3: it's like barely even a subplot in this movie. It's

976
00:56:15,920 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 3: just sort of there. It's not really taking up any

977
00:56:19,600 --> 00:56:24,160
Speaker 3: space there. You know, he likes her from the get go.

978
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:29,800
Speaker 3: She's not like exploiting him or using him necessarily because

979
00:56:29,840 --> 00:56:32,040
Speaker 3: she never tries to be like I love you and

980
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:33,839
Speaker 3: that's why you have to do this for me. She's

981
00:56:33,960 --> 00:56:36,400
Speaker 3: just like I'm trying to do this thing. Can you

982
00:56:36,440 --> 00:56:38,879
Speaker 3: help me? And he's like, well, I love you so yes.

983
00:56:40,719 --> 00:56:43,439
Speaker 3: And I was like, hm, I wonder if they're gonna

984
00:56:43,480 --> 00:56:47,280
Speaker 3: like stick them together at the end, and she does

985
00:56:47,360 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 3: like kind of halfheartedly invite him to go to Spain

986
00:56:50,120 --> 00:56:54,200
Speaker 3: with her. He declines, I'm not surprised that this movie

987
00:56:54,200 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 3: didn't do it, because like that's not a Tarantino thing

988
00:56:57,280 --> 00:57:01,480
Speaker 3: to do. He usually doesn't go for those cliche Hollywood endings.

989
00:57:02,200 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: But I think, I mean, I was surprised at how

990
00:57:05,600 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 1: like I think it again, like for me connected to

991
00:57:07,880 --> 00:57:12,080
Speaker 1: the sexy but not sexualized thing where I don't know,

992
00:57:12,120 --> 00:57:14,800
Speaker 1: I mean trying to think of a clear cut example.

993
00:57:14,880 --> 00:57:20,040
Speaker 1: But again just with like women over forty in movies,

994
00:57:20,080 --> 00:57:24,200
Speaker 1: I flick it is the older you get as an actor,

995
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,040
Speaker 1: if you're a woman or anyone of a marginalized gender,

996
00:57:27,120 --> 00:57:28,840
Speaker 1: the less likely it is that you are going to

997
00:57:29,480 --> 00:57:33,720
Speaker 1: be shown as romantically viable for sure. And I like

998
00:57:33,800 --> 00:57:36,360
Speaker 1: that she kind of gets her little like I don't know.

999
00:57:36,440 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 1: This relationship is like very much a side quest of

1000
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:42,320
Speaker 1: the movie. It is there. It helps move the plot

1001
00:57:42,320 --> 00:57:45,360
Speaker 1: along a little bit, but it's like she I kind

1002
00:57:45,360 --> 00:57:49,000
Speaker 1: of liked where they left it, where it was like, yeah,

1003
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,880
Speaker 1: they didn't force the relationship and that like I don't know.

1004
00:57:53,040 --> 00:57:55,520
Speaker 1: I mean, obviously he'll be hung up on her until

1005
00:57:55,520 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: he dies, but that's kind of his prefer She's got

1006
00:57:59,200 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 1: to move on. And I love that the movie gives us,

1007
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,400
Speaker 1: you know, those like book endings of Jackie by herself,

1008
00:58:05,480 --> 00:58:08,360
Speaker 1: like moving through the world, and this time she's like

1009
00:58:08,800 --> 00:58:12,080
Speaker 1: driving with intention. She's not being ushered along by this

1010
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: moving whatever at the airport, like I don't know, she's

1011
00:58:15,680 --> 00:58:19,880
Speaker 1: It's wow. It feels very like and my life was

1012
00:58:20,080 --> 00:58:23,000
Speaker 1: the prize at the end of the movie, and you're like,

1013
00:58:23,200 --> 00:58:25,080
Speaker 1: I'm in control. It's cool.

1014
00:58:25,480 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 3: This is from a Variety piece from a few years

1015
00:58:30,040 --> 00:58:34,240
Speaker 3: ago entitled Jackie Brown at twenty, meaning the movie is

1016
00:58:34,280 --> 00:58:37,120
Speaker 3: twenty years old, Jackie Brown at twenty. Pam Greer has

1017
00:58:37,520 --> 00:58:43,040
Speaker 3: a better idea for an ending, and so Pam Greer's

1018
00:58:43,120 --> 00:58:46,840
Speaker 3: pitch for an alternate ending for this movie is this quote.

1019
00:58:47,840 --> 00:58:51,080
Speaker 3: In my ending, we have a nice kiss, a second kiss,

1020
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,440
Speaker 3: and embrace, and he lets all the phone calls go

1021
00:58:54,520 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 3: to voicemail. He'll take care of them later. He turns

1022
00:58:57,600 --> 00:59:01,320
Speaker 3: out the lights, takes the keys, with me kids in

1023
00:59:01,320 --> 00:59:03,840
Speaker 3: the car, I drive off, and all of a sudden

1024
00:59:04,040 --> 00:59:07,840
Speaker 3: he becomes this chatterbox and annoying. I go around the block,

1025
00:59:08,040 --> 00:59:10,000
Speaker 3: drop him off, and peel out of there.

1026
00:59:10,640 --> 00:59:12,520
Speaker 1: Oh my god, that's great.

1027
00:59:13,720 --> 00:59:17,800
Speaker 4: I like that because I think what made their you

1028
00:59:17,840 --> 00:59:18,360
Speaker 4: can't call.

1029
00:59:18,200 --> 00:59:22,200
Speaker 5: It relationship, but their connection interesting was the whole kind

1030
00:59:22,200 --> 00:59:25,720
Speaker 5: of danger of this kind of smuggling deal type of thing.

1031
00:59:25,840 --> 00:59:30,040
Speaker 5: And so if that's the sexy thing and that's kind

1032
00:59:30,080 --> 00:59:33,640
Speaker 5: of resolved itself, then yeah, maybe like the reality, I

1033
00:59:33,640 --> 00:59:38,280
Speaker 5: think basically it's a bittersweet, but it's probably more correct

1034
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 5: that they don't end up together because daily life just

1035
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:41,800
Speaker 5: isn't going to be.

1036
00:59:41,760 --> 00:59:45,400
Speaker 1: For Jackie right, Yeah, I think he's too much of

1037
00:59:45,440 --> 00:59:47,840
Speaker 1: a square for her, and it seems like he kind

1038
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:50,680
Speaker 1: of I kind of appreciated that he seemed to have

1039
00:59:50,720 --> 00:59:53,200
Speaker 1: the self knowledge to understand that, and that's part of

1040
00:59:53,240 --> 00:59:56,600
Speaker 1: why he's like, I can't I can't go on a vacation.

1041
00:59:57,080 --> 00:59:58,160
Speaker 1: I'm too boring.

1042
00:59:58,440 --> 00:59:59,840
Speaker 4: Oh, Jamie is going in.

1043
01:00:01,280 --> 01:00:04,200
Speaker 1: Well, I really know, I really liked Max, Like I

1044
01:00:04,240 --> 01:00:07,360
Speaker 1: thought that like he was a I don't know, I

1045
01:00:07,360 --> 01:00:11,440
Speaker 1: think it's kind of Yeah, there's a lot about this,

1046
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:13,880
Speaker 1: especially for a Tarantino movie that surprised me, where I

1047
01:00:13,880 --> 01:00:17,720
Speaker 1: feel like you don't get a lot of like gentle men,

1048
01:00:17,800 --> 01:00:22,120
Speaker 1: not not gentlemen, but like gentle men in Tarantino movies.

1049
01:00:22,440 --> 01:00:25,520
Speaker 1: But Max Cherry is, you know, a pretty gentle man,

1050
01:00:25,920 --> 01:00:30,560
Speaker 1: and I appreciated him. And I also was like, would

1051
01:00:30,560 --> 01:00:32,160
Speaker 1: I want to go on a European vacation with him?

1052
01:00:32,200 --> 01:00:36,680
Speaker 1: Probably not. I feel like Jackie's on to I truly

1053
01:00:36,720 --> 01:00:41,600
Speaker 1: am like, what is the like? Yeah? And I also,

1054
01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,240
Speaker 1: I don't know, I think I'm just a sucker for

1055
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:47,440
Speaker 1: like relationship subplots that are like we like had this

1056
01:00:47,560 --> 01:00:51,760
Speaker 1: really weird, interesting moment in our lives that we shared together,

1057
01:00:51,840 --> 01:00:54,240
Speaker 1: and then we moved on. I always kind of appreciate

1058
01:00:54,760 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 1: that kind of story, and it seems like they'll both,

1059
01:00:57,880 --> 01:01:02,240
Speaker 1: you know, remember each other fondly. And also I kind

1060
01:01:02,280 --> 01:01:04,720
Speaker 1: of liked that they're like, well, I didn't like this,

1061
01:01:04,840 --> 01:01:07,800
Speaker 1: but it was like Max was so like, I don't know,

1062
01:01:07,880 --> 01:01:10,160
Speaker 1: I think inspired by meeting Jackie that he's like, I'm

1063
01:01:10,160 --> 01:01:12,480
Speaker 1: getting out of the bail bond game and then he

1064
01:01:12,800 --> 01:01:15,439
Speaker 1: does not, which just felt very true to life, true

1065
01:01:15,800 --> 01:01:20,080
Speaker 1: like I'm always like I'm I'm done with whoever whatever,

1066
01:01:20,400 --> 01:01:23,240
Speaker 1: and then you know, two seconds later you're like, well, no,

1067
01:01:23,360 --> 01:01:25,880
Speaker 1: I actually have to pay rent this month, so I

1068
01:01:25,880 --> 01:01:26,720
Speaker 1: guess I'm not done.

1069
01:01:27,320 --> 01:01:27,480
Speaker 4: Uh.

1070
01:01:29,840 --> 01:01:34,960
Speaker 3: Can we talk about the other women in the movie?

1071
01:01:35,360 --> 01:01:40,480
Speaker 3: Who oh boy? Are all girlfriends of Ordell?

1072
01:01:41,600 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, Tarantino used up all his respect

1073
01:01:44,880 --> 01:01:47,560
Speaker 1: for women on Jackie's character, and he had none despair

1074
01:01:47,720 --> 01:01:48,760
Speaker 1: for anybody else.

1075
01:01:49,000 --> 01:01:49,680
Speaker 3: This is true.

1076
01:01:49,840 --> 01:01:50,080
Speaker 4: Yes.

1077
01:01:51,280 --> 01:01:56,360
Speaker 3: The character with the most screened time of those girlfriends

1078
01:01:56,360 --> 01:02:01,800
Speaker 3: of Ordell is Melanie, played by Bridget Fon. So we

1079
01:02:01,920 --> 01:02:06,720
Speaker 3: learn very early on that Ordell mistreats Melanie. He expects

1080
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:11,280
Speaker 3: her to wait on him hand and foot. There's a

1081
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:16,960
Speaker 3: scene where they're watching feminist masterpiece Chicks who love guns.

1082
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:22,440
Speaker 1: I thought that was like funny satire for yeah.

1083
01:02:22,680 --> 01:02:27,280
Speaker 3: Also noteworthy in that scene is Ordell is like talking

1084
01:02:27,400 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 3: to Lewis about all of his gun knowledge, and he's

1085
01:02:30,720 --> 01:02:34,600
Speaker 3: saying that his customers want particular guns because certain movies

1086
01:02:34,640 --> 01:02:37,560
Speaker 3: made them look cool, even if the guns themselves are

1087
01:02:37,640 --> 01:02:40,640
Speaker 3: not very good quality. But he's like, well, they want

1088
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,680
Speaker 3: the cool guns from the cool movies. And so he's

1089
01:02:43,760 --> 01:02:50,240
Speaker 3: just commenting on how influential media is. Anyway, So Melanie

1090
01:02:50,280 --> 01:02:53,960
Speaker 3: is mistreated if she tries to, you know, challenge Ordell,

1091
01:02:54,320 --> 01:02:57,400
Speaker 3: he threatens her with violence. She spends most of the

1092
01:02:57,440 --> 01:03:02,320
Speaker 3: movie shit talking or Dell to Lewis, saying like he

1093
01:03:02,400 --> 01:03:06,960
Speaker 3: doesn't actually know anything. He's like he thinks he's Johnny

1094
01:03:07,000 --> 01:03:10,320
Speaker 3: Gunn or something, but he doesn't know shit. She also

1095
01:03:10,400 --> 01:03:15,160
Speaker 3: later shit talks Lewis to his face, saying like, oh, no,

1096
01:03:15,280 --> 01:03:18,360
Speaker 3: wonder you got arrested and like went to jail. You're

1097
01:03:18,480 --> 01:03:22,919
Speaker 3: really bad at this, uh, and then he retaliates by

1098
01:03:23,080 --> 01:03:25,720
Speaker 3: shooting her, which we'll get to in a second.

1099
01:03:25,800 --> 01:03:28,400
Speaker 1: But when you when you explain it like that, it's

1100
01:03:28,400 --> 01:03:31,480
Speaker 1: sort it's interesting. I don't know, maybe there's nothing to this,

1101
01:03:31,640 --> 01:03:35,720
Speaker 1: but like it seems like Melanie is this sort of

1102
01:03:35,840 --> 01:03:40,560
Speaker 1: like behavioral inverse of Jackie in a lot of ways,

1103
01:03:40,600 --> 01:03:43,880
Speaker 1: where like Jackie knows that she is mostly surrounded by

1104
01:03:44,080 --> 01:03:49,880
Speaker 1: incompetent men, but generally has enough patience to play it

1105
01:03:49,920 --> 01:03:54,960
Speaker 1: to her advantage. Yeah, where Melanie does not have that patience. True,

1106
01:03:55,080 --> 01:03:58,400
Speaker 1: And I like, I don't know, I'm not trying to

1107
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:01,200
Speaker 1: like I I'm I'm so curious of like what you're

1108
01:04:01,240 --> 01:04:04,520
Speaker 1: supposed to think about her death. I didn't know what

1109
01:04:04,600 --> 01:04:08,160
Speaker 1: to take because I feel like there's a way that

1110
01:04:08,240 --> 01:04:12,000
Speaker 1: it's just like aid an act of cruelty and like

1111
01:04:12,240 --> 01:04:16,040
Speaker 1: some sort of comment on like masculinity about the DeNiro character.

1112
01:04:16,240 --> 01:04:17,880
Speaker 1: But I also think there's a viewing of it that

1113
01:04:17,960 --> 01:04:20,200
Speaker 1: it's like, well, she brought it upon herself.

1114
01:04:21,360 --> 01:04:24,680
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's but I don't know that's the thing. Like

1115
01:04:25,000 --> 01:04:29,920
Speaker 3: she so she gets she later gets roped into this

1116
01:04:30,040 --> 01:04:33,840
Speaker 3: like hand off sting thing and she becomes an integral

1117
01:04:33,960 --> 01:04:37,040
Speaker 3: part of the plan. But then she almost immediately is

1118
01:04:37,560 --> 01:04:39,840
Speaker 3: shot and killed in a way that, like we said,

1119
01:04:39,920 --> 01:04:43,240
Speaker 3: we do not see coming at all. And it got

1120
01:04:43,280 --> 01:04:46,240
Speaker 3: me thinking about the other characters who are killed in

1121
01:04:46,240 --> 01:04:49,400
Speaker 3: the movie and why they are killed. Because the people

1122
01:04:49,400 --> 01:04:54,360
Speaker 3: who are killed are Beaumont, Lewis, Ordell, and Melanie, not

1123
01:04:54,680 --> 01:04:58,280
Speaker 3: in that order exactly, but Beaumont and Lewis are killed

1124
01:04:58,400 --> 01:05:04,040
Speaker 3: by Ordell because they do something foolish. They're a liability

1125
01:05:04,080 --> 01:05:08,000
Speaker 3: to Ordell. Basically, they're screwing up his operation, and so

1126
01:05:08,400 --> 01:05:14,880
Speaker 3: he kills them to protect himself and eliminate these liabilities.

1127
01:05:15,720 --> 01:05:18,840
Speaker 3: Ordell is killed because he's the bad guy who has

1128
01:05:18,920 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 3: to be taken down. He is also him getting killed

1129
01:05:24,200 --> 01:05:26,960
Speaker 3: to me felt like the movie punishing him for his

1130
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:31,880
Speaker 3: bad behavior. He's cruel to women, he's he's going to

1131
01:05:31,960 --> 01:05:34,800
Speaker 3: kill the character that we're rooting for, Jackie Brown, so

1132
01:05:35,560 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 3: he has to die, and that's the narrative punishing him.

1133
01:05:39,920 --> 01:05:47,880
Speaker 3: But then Melanie is killed, like because she challenged Lewis's

1134
01:05:47,920 --> 01:05:52,360
Speaker 3: fragile ego, and it's just like I don't know how

1135
01:05:52,360 --> 01:05:55,600
Speaker 3: to interpret it exactly like you were saying, Jamie.

1136
01:05:55,720 --> 01:05:56,120
Speaker 1: I don't know.

1137
01:05:56,160 --> 01:05:58,840
Speaker 3: And then Ordell is like, when Lewis is like, yeah,

1138
01:05:59,760 --> 01:06:05,480
Speaker 3: I did shoot Melanie and she's basically dead, Ordell is

1139
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:08,720
Speaker 3: like you couldn't talk to her, you couldn't just hit her.

1140
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:11,720
Speaker 3: And then Lewis is like, well, I don't know, I

1141
01:06:11,800 --> 01:06:14,800
Speaker 3: just shot her, and so Ordell is like, well, if

1142
01:06:14,800 --> 01:06:16,760
Speaker 3: you had to do it, you had to do it.

1143
01:06:16,920 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 1: And which which says to me just like based on

1144
01:06:20,520 --> 01:06:22,800
Speaker 1: I don't know, Like it's hard to put on nineteen

1145
01:06:22,880 --> 01:06:26,800
Speaker 1: ninety seven goggles for like watching this, but it feels

1146
01:06:26,840 --> 01:06:30,600
Speaker 1: like in that scene with Sam Jackson and de Niro

1147
01:06:30,840 --> 01:06:34,480
Speaker 1: that like it's kind of played as a joke right

1148
01:06:34,520 --> 01:06:37,800
Speaker 1: after it happens, because that's like such a Tarantino scene

1149
01:06:37,920 --> 01:06:40,400
Speaker 1: of like Sam Jackson in a car talking about a

1150
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 1: recent murder, and it's like some of the most iconic

1151
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:46,320
Speaker 1: scenes that he's written. I don't know. This is not

1152
01:06:46,400 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 1: one of them, obviously, but I don't know. I felt

1153
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:52,840
Speaker 1: like her, I don't understand why in a movie where

1154
01:06:52,880 --> 01:06:56,480
Speaker 1: I feel like I did understand most of why things

1155
01:06:56,480 --> 01:07:00,480
Speaker 1: were happening, that felt casual and random in Seid, And

1156
01:07:00,480 --> 01:07:02,760
Speaker 1: maybe that's what it was supposed to be. I don't

1157
01:07:02,880 --> 01:07:05,600
Speaker 1: I don't really know. And I also, towards the end

1158
01:07:05,760 --> 01:07:10,760
Speaker 1: of Melanie's character arc, was not sure what she was

1159
01:07:10,800 --> 01:07:13,080
Speaker 1: trying to do either, because it's like she had we

1160
01:07:13,160 --> 01:07:16,840
Speaker 1: know that her motive is that Ordele treats her poorly

1161
01:07:17,040 --> 01:07:20,960
Speaker 1: and she wants to fuck him over in some way,

1162
01:07:21,360 --> 01:07:25,240
Speaker 1: and that's why she's leveraging this new I don't know,

1163
01:07:25,640 --> 01:07:33,400
Speaker 1: like awkward, weed smoking hang situation with Lewis to her advantage.

1164
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:37,920
Speaker 1: I don't understand really why, Like, but on the day

1165
01:07:38,200 --> 01:07:44,320
Speaker 1: of their plan, like she is running behind, Like there's

1166
01:07:44,520 --> 01:07:47,520
Speaker 1: I just like didn't understand what we were supposed to

1167
01:07:47,520 --> 01:07:52,120
Speaker 1: take away from her behavior like that was very unsettled,

1168
01:07:52,120 --> 01:07:53,960
Speaker 1: and I think just was made to some extent to

1169
01:07:53,960 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 1: make her seem like incompetent and kind of just like

1170
01:07:57,520 --> 01:08:02,880
Speaker 1: a bimbo in the bad way, not in the coup way.

1171
01:08:04,000 --> 01:08:07,840
Speaker 3: Well, there are a lot of male directors who do

1172
01:08:07,920 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 3: this where they're like, yeah, there are certain types of

1173
01:08:11,440 --> 01:08:15,040
Speaker 3: women who do deserve respect, but if you're this type

1174
01:08:15,080 --> 01:08:18,599
Speaker 3: of woman, you do not deserve respect. And I think

1175
01:08:18,680 --> 01:08:24,400
Speaker 3: Tarantino views someone like the Melanie character as the type

1176
01:08:24,439 --> 01:08:28,679
Speaker 3: of woman who does not deserve respect, and therefore she's

1177
01:08:29,479 --> 01:08:34,760
Speaker 3: gonna make choices that ultimately get her killed, and the

1178
01:08:34,840 --> 01:08:38,839
Speaker 3: movie is gonna basically sort of blame her for getting killed,

1179
01:08:38,840 --> 01:08:42,000
Speaker 3: and it's like, well, she was asking for it basically

1180
01:08:42,360 --> 01:08:45,200
Speaker 3: because of the way she is. That's at least my

1181
01:08:45,760 --> 01:08:49,240
Speaker 3: interpretation of it. I think you could read it differently,

1182
01:08:49,320 --> 01:08:51,599
Speaker 3: but that's how I sort of feel.

1183
01:08:51,880 --> 01:08:54,360
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm I'm on bored with that. It's just bizarre

1184
01:08:54,360 --> 01:08:57,040
Speaker 1: because it's like this, she feels more in line with

1185
01:08:57,120 --> 01:09:01,400
Speaker 1: like a more stereotypical Quentin Tarantina character wedged inside of

1186
01:09:01,439 --> 01:09:04,439
Speaker 1: this movie that pushes against a lot of what you

1187
01:09:04,479 --> 01:09:08,400
Speaker 1: would consider to be stereotypical Quentin Tarantino characters. And I

1188
01:09:08,400 --> 01:09:10,760
Speaker 1: also just like Bridget Fonda, and I wish that she

1189
01:09:11,000 --> 01:09:14,679
Speaker 1: got a better ending. I like that at least at

1190
01:09:14,760 --> 01:09:17,519
Speaker 1: least before she dies. You do get like this moment

1191
01:09:18,040 --> 01:09:22,240
Speaker 1: between her and Jackie, even though it doesn't pass the

1192
01:09:22,280 --> 01:09:24,599
Speaker 1: fact with us and they don't even ever really meet,

1193
01:09:24,640 --> 01:09:29,120
Speaker 1: like face to face really because anytime that Jackie is entering,

1194
01:09:29,760 --> 01:09:31,719
Speaker 1: I think the one time that they might have a conversation,

1195
01:09:31,840 --> 01:09:37,839
Speaker 1: Melanie is leaving as Jackie arrives. But Jackie does try

1196
01:09:37,880 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 1: to like give her extra like she gives her like

1197
01:09:41,360 --> 01:09:43,800
Speaker 1: the cherry on top, because what did Ordella ever do

1198
01:09:43,920 --> 01:09:47,839
Speaker 1: for either of us? Yeah, I liked that little moment

1199
01:09:47,960 --> 01:09:53,519
Speaker 1: of solidarity even though she's got like forty five minutes

1200
01:09:53,600 --> 01:09:58,439
Speaker 1: left to live for reasons unclear to me, Yeah, I liked.

1201
01:09:58,479 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 1: I mean the other two we hear about two other characters.

1202
01:10:03,920 --> 01:10:06,320
Speaker 1: They're both girlfriends of Wordel.

1203
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:08,360
Speaker 3: I think Simone and Shiranda.

1204
01:10:08,520 --> 01:10:12,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, yes, I don't know. The way that Ordel talks

1205
01:10:12,200 --> 01:10:15,920
Speaker 1: about women is just horrible. Does not have a good

1206
01:10:15,920 --> 01:10:19,960
Speaker 1: thing to say about anybody. I think he's talking about

1207
01:10:20,000 --> 01:10:23,200
Speaker 1: Shiranda when he says that he basically prayed on her

1208
01:10:23,560 --> 01:10:28,439
Speaker 1: dream of moving to Hollywood. Yeah, and is keeping her

1209
01:10:28,960 --> 01:10:33,479
Speaker 1: captive to some extent as his girlfriend talks about her

1210
01:10:33,520 --> 01:10:35,519
Speaker 1: like she is not smart at all. But I believe

1211
01:10:35,560 --> 01:10:37,040
Speaker 1: she is also the one that takes the money and

1212
01:10:37,080 --> 01:10:37,680
Speaker 1: fucks him over.

1213
01:10:38,280 --> 01:10:41,360
Speaker 3: Right, No, that's Simone. Oh, good for Simone. So Simone

1214
01:10:41,640 --> 01:10:47,040
Speaker 3: is right. So Simone is the middle aged woman who

1215
01:10:47,600 --> 01:10:50,439
Speaker 3: who we meet when she's like doing a little dance

1216
01:10:50,760 --> 01:10:54,439
Speaker 3: for Lewis in this like blue sequin dress. She's the

1217
01:10:54,720 --> 01:10:58,080
Speaker 3: kind of secret person who's there for the trial run

1218
01:10:58,360 --> 01:11:01,439
Speaker 3: of that like first money and Off, and then she

1219
01:11:01,479 --> 01:11:04,519
Speaker 3: skips town with ten thousand dollars and they never hear

1220
01:11:04,560 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 3: from her again, good for her. Shironda is the younger woman.

1221
01:11:09,960 --> 01:11:16,040
Speaker 3: She's only nineteen. Meanwhile, Sam Jackson, like his character's in

1222
01:11:16,080 --> 01:11:20,240
Speaker 3: his forties, late forties, presumably, like you said, he talks

1223
01:11:20,240 --> 01:11:23,719
Speaker 3: about her very disrespectfully calls her like a country bumpkin

1224
01:11:23,920 --> 01:11:28,360
Speaker 3: kind of thing, and then later she does that handoff

1225
01:11:28,520 --> 01:11:33,400
Speaker 3: and she interacts very briefly with Jackie, and that's kind

1226
01:11:33,400 --> 01:11:36,240
Speaker 3: of all we see of the food at the food court.

1227
01:11:36,360 --> 01:11:41,040
Speaker 3: She eats some of her meal, and then later she's

1228
01:11:41,120 --> 01:11:44,960
Speaker 3: in the room when Ordell and Max are talking, and

1229
01:11:45,560 --> 01:11:49,599
Speaker 3: it's implied that she's like so stoned out of her mind.

1230
01:11:49,880 --> 01:11:54,680
Speaker 3: I'm guessing on Heroin that she's like basically incapacitated and

1231
01:11:54,720 --> 01:11:59,640
Speaker 3: she doesn't even like speak or does like barely conscious

1232
01:11:59,720 --> 01:12:03,360
Speaker 3: in that scene. So those other two women of like

1233
01:12:03,760 --> 01:12:08,599
Speaker 3: Simone and Shiranda, they are important to the story for

1234
01:12:08,720 --> 01:12:12,400
Speaker 3: like the different sting operations that go down, but they

1235
01:12:12,400 --> 01:12:14,800
Speaker 3: get very little screen time, They get very little characterization.

1236
01:12:15,360 --> 01:12:18,719
Speaker 3: The characters nor the movie seem to respect them very much,

1237
01:12:19,479 --> 01:12:21,840
Speaker 3: and then they're you know, in a couple scenes and

1238
01:12:21,880 --> 01:12:24,800
Speaker 3: then gone, so there isn't really even much to talk

1239
01:12:24,840 --> 01:12:25,639
Speaker 3: about with them.

1240
01:12:26,120 --> 01:12:29,479
Speaker 1: I really do like picture Quinn Garantino in his house

1241
01:12:29,520 --> 01:12:33,720
Speaker 1: with like a vial full of respect for women characters,

1242
01:12:33,840 --> 01:12:35,840
Speaker 1: and he's like, I don't know, I'm fresh out.

1243
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:37,479
Speaker 3: I used it all up on that one.

1244
01:12:37,560 --> 01:12:42,280
Speaker 1: It's gonna have to phone it in. Yeah, which sucks

1245
01:12:42,280 --> 01:12:44,120
Speaker 1: because again, I feel like we've been talking about this

1246
01:12:44,280 --> 01:12:46,840
Speaker 1: for as long as the show has existed. I think

1247
01:12:46,880 --> 01:12:48,640
Speaker 1: the first time we may have talked about it was

1248
01:12:48,680 --> 01:12:52,759
Speaker 1: in the original Star Wars a New Hope episode where

1249
01:12:52,760 --> 01:12:57,920
Speaker 1: it's like movies that have one amazing woman character and

1250
01:12:57,960 --> 01:13:00,920
Speaker 1: then no one for them to really talk to other

1251
01:13:01,000 --> 01:13:03,439
Speaker 1: than men for the whole movie. Yeah, which this movie

1252
01:13:03,479 --> 01:13:06,599
Speaker 1: is not completely an example of, but for the most part,

1253
01:13:06,680 --> 01:13:09,800
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, it's not perfect, but what

1254
01:13:09,840 --> 01:13:11,760
Speaker 1: movie is. I just love Jackie Brown so much that

1255
01:13:11,840 --> 01:13:16,040
Speaker 1: I want to forget this movie for certain things. But also,

1256
01:13:16,640 --> 01:13:21,040
Speaker 1: you know, I'm team Bridget Fonda. She's very talented, she's

1257
01:13:21,040 --> 01:13:24,400
Speaker 1: married to Danny Elfman, whoa is that fun.

1258
01:13:24,520 --> 01:13:29,800
Speaker 3: She's also a NEPO person because she's Henry Fonda's granddaughter,

1259
01:13:30,360 --> 01:13:35,240
Speaker 3: Peter Fonda's daughter. The whole Fonda family is just I mean,

1260
01:13:35,240 --> 01:13:38,080
Speaker 3: I like them, Jane Fonda's she's Jane Fonda's niece.

1261
01:13:39,600 --> 01:13:42,799
Speaker 1: This is I'm pro Fonda. I'm not made of stone.

1262
01:13:44,760 --> 01:13:47,520
Speaker 3: Does anyone have anything else they'd like to discuss?

1263
01:13:48,560 --> 01:13:48,800
Speaker 1: Uh?

1264
01:13:48,920 --> 01:13:48,960
Speaker 7: Not?

1265
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:51,280
Speaker 1: That was uh, that's battle I had.

1266
01:13:51,479 --> 01:13:55,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, Well, we were kind of alluding to this There

1267
01:13:55,640 --> 01:13:59,320
Speaker 3: are a couple interactions between women, but as far as

1268
01:13:59,360 --> 01:14:02,679
Speaker 3: this movie passed seeing the Bechdel test, I do think

1269
01:14:02,800 --> 01:14:07,200
Speaker 3: that an exchange between Jackie and Sharonda, Yes at the

1270
01:14:07,200 --> 01:14:09,320
Speaker 3: mall court does pass.

1271
01:14:09,640 --> 01:14:11,880
Speaker 1: It does, yeah, because they are and I would say

1272
01:14:11,880 --> 01:14:16,639
Speaker 1: that that's their meeting. Is definitely very meaningful. Even though

1273
01:14:16,640 --> 01:14:20,280
Speaker 1: it doesn't have a ton of plot relevance, it feels

1274
01:14:20,479 --> 01:14:22,559
Speaker 1: I was really happy that the movie at least took

1275
01:14:22,600 --> 01:14:27,519
Speaker 1: a second to introduce them to each other. They're mostly

1276
01:14:27,520 --> 01:14:31,480
Speaker 1: talking about food at the mall, but yeah, there's subtext.

1277
01:14:31,560 --> 01:14:34,960
Speaker 1: I think it counts true. But I think that that

1278
01:14:35,160 --> 01:14:40,120
Speaker 1: is the only time that we get because the other

1279
01:14:40,160 --> 01:14:46,280
Speaker 1: exchanges are very brief. Between Pamguer and Bridget Fonda, there's

1280
01:14:46,280 --> 01:14:49,559
Speaker 1: a moment of solidarity, but it's over a mutual being

1281
01:14:49,640 --> 01:14:52,360
Speaker 1: fucked over by Ordell, so that that doesn't pass.

1282
01:14:52,439 --> 01:14:55,320
Speaker 3: But maybe when Melanie is like, you look really good

1283
01:14:55,320 --> 01:14:58,960
Speaker 3: in that suit and Jackie's like thanks.

1284
01:14:58,560 --> 01:15:03,559
Speaker 1: Oh that's true. Okay, feminist masterpiece. I take back everything.

1285
01:15:03,560 --> 01:15:08,479
Speaker 3: I can take it all back, but onto the real

1286
01:15:08,840 --> 01:15:15,040
Speaker 3: end all be all of movie rating systems, the Nipple scale, Yes,

1287
01:15:15,240 --> 01:15:18,639
Speaker 3: where we rate the movie on a scale of zero

1288
01:15:18,680 --> 01:15:23,360
Speaker 3: to five Nipples based on examining the movie through an

1289
01:15:23,439 --> 01:15:28,840
Speaker 3: intersectional feminist lens. So this one, oh, this is a

1290
01:15:28,840 --> 01:15:33,360
Speaker 3: tricky one. You know, you have such an incredible character

1291
01:15:33,520 --> 01:15:38,680
Speaker 3: in Jackie Brown. Again, she's the smartest person in the room.

1292
01:15:39,000 --> 01:15:44,240
Speaker 3: You know, she's a realistically flawed character. She's you know,

1293
01:15:44,320 --> 01:15:49,639
Speaker 3: she's highly motivated. What is motivating her are interesting relatable

1294
01:15:49,680 --> 01:15:53,920
Speaker 3: things as far as like, again the intersection of her age, race,

1295
01:15:54,080 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 3: and class.

1296
01:15:55,240 --> 01:15:59,200
Speaker 5: And I like that she's not like beholden to anybody

1297
01:15:59,360 --> 01:16:01,320
Speaker 5: like those flaws are hers.

1298
01:16:01,439 --> 01:16:03,439
Speaker 4: It's not like there's a whole I.

1299
01:16:03,360 --> 01:16:06,519
Speaker 5: Mean, there's probably a big backstory, but it's not kind

1300
01:16:06,560 --> 01:16:09,880
Speaker 5: of alluded to, and so there's no like you feel

1301
01:16:09,920 --> 01:16:12,360
Speaker 5: for her, but it's not like a pity feel.

1302
01:16:12,120 --> 01:16:13,280
Speaker 3: For her for sure.

1303
01:16:13,520 --> 01:16:13,720
Speaker 4: Yeah.

1304
01:16:13,840 --> 01:16:18,559
Speaker 3: Yeah, she's highly empathetic as a character, and I'm rooting

1305
01:16:18,600 --> 01:16:21,720
Speaker 3: for her every step of the way. And you know,

1306
01:16:21,760 --> 01:16:25,000
Speaker 3: the Pam Greer performance is incredible, and there's just so

1307
01:16:25,080 --> 01:16:28,719
Speaker 3: much to love and admire about the Jackie Brown character.

1308
01:16:29,400 --> 01:16:33,800
Speaker 3: But as we said, Tarantino seems to have used up

1309
01:16:33,840 --> 01:16:36,920
Speaker 3: all of his respect for women on that one character,

1310
01:16:37,720 --> 01:16:42,160
Speaker 3: and then the rest of the female characters are not

1311
01:16:42,880 --> 01:16:49,639
Speaker 3: offered that same level of respect or characterization, and yeah,

1312
01:16:49,640 --> 01:16:50,400
Speaker 3: I don't know, there's just.

1313
01:16:50,439 --> 01:16:53,120
Speaker 1: Melanie could have just disappeared, Yeah, like she could have

1314
01:16:53,479 --> 01:16:54,880
Speaker 1: like like we didn't need to.

1315
01:16:54,920 --> 01:16:57,920
Speaker 3: Gotten away from Lewis.

1316
01:16:57,479 --> 01:17:00,640
Speaker 4: In some respect, I think the treatment of the.

1317
01:17:02,120 --> 01:17:04,599
Speaker 5: Smaller roles of the women it says a lot about

1318
01:17:04,640 --> 01:17:07,080
Speaker 5: the guys as well, and I feel like it's also

1319
01:17:07,120 --> 01:17:09,240
Speaker 5: about the world that's been created.

1320
01:17:09,280 --> 01:17:12,520
Speaker 4: They're not very I don't know what the word I mean, upmarket.

1321
01:17:12,080 --> 01:17:13,880
Speaker 5: Is probably a bad choice of word, but it's like

1322
01:17:14,479 --> 01:17:17,559
Speaker 5: I still hold them accountable to an extent. Does that

1323
01:17:17,560 --> 01:17:19,240
Speaker 5: make sense what I'm saying, Like in terms of the

1324
01:17:19,240 --> 01:17:25,920
Speaker 5: male characters, their sloppiness towards the women, it's about them

1325
01:17:26,080 --> 01:17:26,559
Speaker 5: as well.

1326
01:17:27,040 --> 01:17:30,000
Speaker 3: I do think the movie is commenting on their like

1327
01:17:31,080 --> 01:17:33,280
Speaker 3: fragile male egos and.

1328
01:17:33,840 --> 01:17:36,559
Speaker 5: They're in a funk, right, These guys are in a funk.

1329
01:17:37,040 --> 01:17:39,680
Speaker 5: As you kind of said earlier about Robert de Niro's character, like.

1330
01:17:39,640 --> 01:17:41,240
Speaker 4: He's basically a loser.

1331
01:17:41,640 --> 01:17:44,880
Speaker 5: So yeah, I think it's like it's not like the

1332
01:17:44,880 --> 01:17:46,839
Speaker 5: best portrayal of women, or it's not a good portrayal

1333
01:17:46,880 --> 01:17:50,759
Speaker 5: of women. However, I think they're also accountable in terms

1334
01:17:50,760 --> 01:17:53,280
Speaker 5: of they're not great portrayals of men.

1335
01:17:53,200 --> 01:17:59,840
Speaker 3: Either, right, I mean Tarantino does not have respect. I

1336
01:18:00,080 --> 01:18:02,040
Speaker 3: don't know, I don't know how he feels about like

1337
01:18:02,280 --> 01:18:06,040
Speaker 3: ordell Or, but I mean he seems to think Max

1338
01:18:06,560 --> 01:18:10,439
Speaker 3: Cherry is a pretty nice guy. Yeah, and I can't

1339
01:18:10,560 --> 01:18:12,439
Speaker 3: argue with him. I was like, I was like, I

1340
01:18:13,320 --> 01:18:16,400
Speaker 3: like Max, but also like we didn't oh, we didn't

1341
01:18:16,400 --> 01:18:21,240
Speaker 3: even talk about like Jackie Brown colluding with the cops

1342
01:18:21,320 --> 01:18:24,200
Speaker 3: and like her cooperation with the police and you know,

1343
01:18:25,560 --> 01:18:27,640
Speaker 3: but also maybe you just have to chalk it up

1344
01:18:27,640 --> 01:18:30,800
Speaker 3: to again, she's gonna do whatever it takes, because she

1345
01:18:30,840 --> 01:18:34,040
Speaker 3: also plays the cops like she's not like there to

1346
01:18:34,120 --> 01:18:37,160
Speaker 3: be like, no, you guys are awesome and I'm definitely

1347
01:18:37,240 --> 01:18:39,360
Speaker 3: helping you with one hundred percent integrity.

1348
01:18:39,680 --> 01:18:43,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I wouldn't say that this movie is procused pro coright, No,

1349
01:18:43,800 --> 01:18:46,880
Speaker 1: it seems like she she makes it very like I

1350
01:18:46,880 --> 01:18:49,360
Speaker 1: think that, like especially in that scene where it's hurt,

1351
01:18:49,400 --> 01:18:53,520
Speaker 1: She's like, I'm going to do whatever is necessary to

1352
01:18:53,560 --> 01:18:56,600
Speaker 1: survive in a way where I can be happy. Like

1353
01:18:57,240 --> 01:19:02,400
Speaker 1: justifies how she games everything in every single role, right

1354
01:19:02,479 --> 01:19:05,519
Speaker 1: and where like woaho, hell Yeah. But then like I

1355
01:19:05,520 --> 01:19:08,840
Speaker 1: think more it's pro cop to make Michael Keaton a

1356
01:19:08,880 --> 01:19:12,000
Speaker 1: cop because I think he's really hot. Well, I know,

1357
01:19:12,800 --> 01:19:18,000
Speaker 1: someone is so sexy. That's sort of my thing. Casting

1358
01:19:18,040 --> 01:19:20,559
Speaker 1: someone as young Michael Keaton does it for me, right.

1359
01:19:20,640 --> 01:19:23,559
Speaker 3: Casting someone as likable as Michael Keaton as a cop

1360
01:19:23,680 --> 01:19:27,600
Speaker 3: character is a little too pro cop for my for

1361
01:19:27,680 --> 01:19:31,080
Speaker 3: my taste, but even so, yeah, it's It's just it's

1362
01:19:31,160 --> 01:19:33,960
Speaker 3: Jackie Brown again being the smartest person in the room,

1363
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:36,840
Speaker 3: being able to keep track of everything that she's said

1364
01:19:36,880 --> 01:19:41,840
Speaker 3: to everyone, anticipating things that will probably like she knows

1365
01:19:41,880 --> 01:19:45,840
Speaker 3: all about Murphy's Law, like whatever can go wrong will,

1366
01:19:46,000 --> 01:19:50,800
Speaker 3: She's like anticipating things. I also like the contrast between Beaumont,

1367
01:19:51,000 --> 01:19:54,880
Speaker 3: who willingly gets in the trunk of a car for

1368
01:19:55,000 --> 01:19:59,639
Speaker 3: like basically no reason. He's like the reason that Ordell

1369
01:19:59,760 --> 01:20:02,200
Speaker 3: is like, yeah, because I need you to spring out

1370
01:20:02,280 --> 01:20:04,920
Speaker 3: and surprise these people. I'm selling the guns too. It's

1371
01:20:05,000 --> 01:20:09,680
Speaker 3: just like the flimsiest thing ever. Bowman's just like, well, okay.

1372
01:20:09,320 --> 01:20:12,439
Speaker 1: It's horrible, and how the horrible thing is When that

1373
01:20:12,479 --> 01:20:18,720
Speaker 1: scene happened, I believed him. I was like, wow, I

1374
01:20:18,760 --> 01:20:21,200
Speaker 1: really would not make it five minutes into this movie.

1375
01:20:21,240 --> 01:20:23,760
Speaker 1: I would have been like, yeah, I guess I owe

1376
01:20:23,760 --> 01:20:24,400
Speaker 1: you as sure.

1377
01:20:24,640 --> 01:20:27,879
Speaker 3: You get into the trunk of a car, no problem.

1378
01:20:28,760 --> 01:20:32,559
Speaker 3: But when as soon as you know, Max tells Jackie

1379
01:20:32,600 --> 01:20:37,160
Speaker 3: about like, oh yeah, Beaumont got killed a few days ago.

1380
01:20:38,040 --> 01:20:41,120
Speaker 3: Jackie's like, oh, well, that was obviously Ordell, and obviously

1381
01:20:41,200 --> 01:20:43,120
Speaker 3: he's going to try to kill me too, So I

1382
01:20:43,240 --> 01:20:45,639
Speaker 3: need to prepare. Like she's just so good at being

1383
01:20:45,720 --> 01:20:49,320
Speaker 3: hyper aware of the situation and all the nuances and

1384
01:20:49,400 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 3: like anticipating anything that might happen, and she's incredible. So

1385
01:20:55,920 --> 01:20:57,880
Speaker 3: with all of this in mind, I think I'll give

1386
01:20:57,920 --> 01:20:58,439
Speaker 3: the movie.

1387
01:20:59,400 --> 01:21:00,040
Speaker 1: I'm kind of.

1388
01:21:00,120 --> 01:21:03,880
Speaker 3: Tempted to give it like three nipples because there are

1389
01:21:03,920 --> 01:21:06,439
Speaker 3: some maybe even three and a half.

1390
01:21:06,560 --> 01:21:10,160
Speaker 1: I don't know, Wow, I was even gonna go for it.

1391
01:21:10,200 --> 01:21:11,200
Speaker 1: Is that too scary?

1392
01:21:11,320 --> 01:21:12,120
Speaker 3: That's not scary?

1393
01:21:12,280 --> 01:21:13,320
Speaker 1: Is that too scary?

1394
01:21:13,360 --> 01:21:16,360
Speaker 3: All right, I'll go three and at half because at

1395
01:21:16,400 --> 01:21:18,800
Speaker 3: the end of the day, it is still Quentin Tarantino

1396
01:21:19,160 --> 01:21:22,439
Speaker 3: writing the N word into his script one hundred times. Yeah,

1397
01:21:22,479 --> 01:21:25,080
Speaker 3: So three and a half nipples, and I'm going to

1398
01:21:25,120 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 3: distribute them between Pam Greer, the actors who played Shiranda

1399
01:21:31,040 --> 01:21:36,439
Speaker 3: and Simone, and Sam Jackson, who I just love and

1400
01:21:36,680 --> 01:21:39,720
Speaker 3: he's the greatest, so much so that I'm on a

1401
01:21:39,840 --> 01:21:41,240
Speaker 3: first name basis with him.

1402
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:45,880
Speaker 1: Hey Sam, Wow, yeah yeah.

1403
01:21:45,960 --> 01:21:46,120
Speaker 4: Four.

1404
01:21:46,280 --> 01:21:49,160
Speaker 1: For some reason, four doesn't sit right with my with

1405
01:21:49,240 --> 01:21:51,559
Speaker 1: my spirit, So I'll go, I'll go three point seven. Five.

1406
01:21:51,640 --> 01:21:55,160
Speaker 1: Let's get let's get into some real decimones. Get number freaky.

1407
01:21:55,960 --> 01:21:59,639
Speaker 1: Jackie Brown is such an awesome character. I feel like it. Yeah,

1408
01:21:59,720 --> 01:22:03,080
Speaker 1: there's just so many elements of like, I mean, we

1409
01:22:03,320 --> 01:22:06,680
Speaker 1: have talked about it, but centering a black woman in

1410
01:22:06,720 --> 01:22:11,000
Speaker 1: her forties in a like huge movie was really rare then,

1411
01:22:11,240 --> 01:22:14,519
Speaker 1: is really rare now. And also that like she's sexy,

1412
01:22:14,600 --> 01:22:17,599
Speaker 1: but she's not like I don't know, the camera doesn't

1413
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:19,920
Speaker 1: like make a meal of her in a creepy way

1414
01:22:19,960 --> 01:22:23,640
Speaker 1: at any point. She's really smart, she's really motivated, but

1415
01:22:23,880 --> 01:22:27,799
Speaker 1: not in a way that it's like becomes like weird

1416
01:22:27,960 --> 01:22:32,040
Speaker 1: Mary Sue kind of behavior. Like the steaks are very real,

1417
01:22:32,200 --> 01:22:34,240
Speaker 1: and like she's I don't know, she's just like the

1418
01:22:34,240 --> 01:22:39,280
Speaker 1: coolest fucking character, and I wish that she had again,

1419
01:22:39,400 --> 01:22:43,320
Speaker 1: just like women in her life to talk to. I

1420
01:22:43,320 --> 01:22:45,800
Speaker 1: always think it's fascinating when you find these characters who

1421
01:22:45,800 --> 01:22:48,599
Speaker 1: are like these amazing women that you're like, how does

1422
01:22:48,760 --> 01:22:55,000
Speaker 1: Jackie Brown not have five? Hundred friends like, she is

1423
01:22:55,120 --> 01:22:59,519
Speaker 1: so cool and so loved by everyone she encounters that

1424
01:22:59,560 --> 01:23:02,719
Speaker 1: you would think if the movie allowed her to encounter

1425
01:23:02,880 --> 01:23:06,160
Speaker 1: more women, they too would love her. And I just

1426
01:23:07,000 --> 01:23:09,360
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, we don't really get into

1427
01:23:10,160 --> 01:23:13,800
Speaker 1: Jackie Brown's or anyone in this movie's you know, backstory

1428
01:23:13,840 --> 01:23:16,240
Speaker 1: in a meaningful way, which didn't bother me, But I

1429
01:23:16,320 --> 01:23:19,080
Speaker 1: just I don't know. It would have been cool to

1430
01:23:19,160 --> 01:23:23,960
Speaker 1: see what a true, like deep friendship would have seemed

1431
01:23:24,040 --> 01:23:28,479
Speaker 1: like for her. But whatever it's she is incredible. I

1432
01:23:28,520 --> 01:23:33,719
Speaker 1: think Melanie and Simone and Ronda were all done different

1433
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:41,360
Speaker 1: types and degrees of disservice, but Jackie She's untouchable. And

1434
01:23:41,439 --> 01:23:45,000
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna give it three point seven five. I'm

1435
01:23:45,000 --> 01:23:48,160
Speaker 1: giving them all to Pam Greer because it's her movie. Baby.

1436
01:23:48,880 --> 01:23:51,559
Speaker 3: I feel like you could have written out as much

1437
01:23:51,600 --> 01:23:53,280
Speaker 3: as I like Robert de Niro as an actor, I

1438
01:23:53,280 --> 01:23:54,680
Speaker 3: feel like you could have written him out of the

1439
01:23:54,680 --> 01:23:58,240
Speaker 3: movie and then given Jackie Brown a friend instead of

1440
01:23:58,280 --> 01:24:03,080
Speaker 3: giving Ordell a friend. That's my controversial This.

1441
01:24:03,000 --> 01:24:05,320
Speaker 1: Doesn't This doesn't resolve the problem, but it would been

1442
01:24:05,400 --> 01:24:08,439
Speaker 1: kind of fun if Rubbertcenio is Jackie Brown's best friend.

1443
01:24:10,479 --> 01:24:13,840
Speaker 3: Anyway, Sardio, how about you? What say you?

1444
01:24:14,560 --> 01:24:19,240
Speaker 5: This is so hard because it's my choice, but I think, yeah,

1445
01:24:19,680 --> 01:24:21,719
Speaker 5: I was going to go for four, but maybe three

1446
01:24:21,760 --> 01:24:24,200
Speaker 5: point nine, but that's just weird, so probably let me

1447
01:24:24,240 --> 01:24:24,760
Speaker 5: go for four.

1448
01:24:25,000 --> 01:24:27,120
Speaker 1: Okay, oh yeah, because it.

1449
01:24:27,160 --> 01:24:31,719
Speaker 7: Definitely did make me see things in a really refreshing way,

1450
01:24:32,000 --> 01:24:35,360
Speaker 7: even though like we've definitely commented and I've taken on

1451
01:24:35,400 --> 01:24:41,760
Speaker 7: board the notes about the side characters, which isn't great from.

1452
01:24:41,479 --> 01:24:43,880
Speaker 5: Like obviously when we're kind of in the industry, so

1453
01:24:43,920 --> 01:24:46,320
Speaker 5: we know that all characters should be rounded, but like

1454
01:24:46,600 --> 01:24:49,559
Speaker 5: that's not what he's gone for really, so, but she

1455
01:24:49,760 --> 01:24:53,960
Speaker 5: is totally eclipsed everything, and I think given that I

1456
01:24:54,040 --> 01:24:58,120
Speaker 5: really don't see women black women so real and so

1457
01:24:58,600 --> 01:25:02,880
Speaker 5: kind of winners and inspiring survivors all of those things,

1458
01:25:02,920 --> 01:25:04,520
Speaker 5: it's like yeah, before.

1459
01:25:04,680 --> 01:25:06,639
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, hell yeah.

1460
01:25:06,840 --> 01:25:09,519
Speaker 3: Well, Sadia, thank you so much for joining us for

1461
01:25:09,600 --> 01:25:16,160
Speaker 3: this discussion. Tell us where people can follow you online,

1462
01:25:16,520 --> 01:25:19,000
Speaker 3: tell us about your book, or plug anything you want

1463
01:25:19,040 --> 01:25:19,439
Speaker 3: to plug.

1464
01:25:19,880 --> 01:25:20,839
Speaker 4: Thank you, ladies.

1465
01:25:20,920 --> 01:25:23,439
Speaker 5: It's been so much fun and like, yeah, you made

1466
01:25:23,439 --> 01:25:25,680
Speaker 5: me love this movie again and so much more. I

1467
01:25:25,680 --> 01:25:28,160
Speaker 5: don't know why I don't watch this like more often,

1468
01:25:28,720 --> 01:25:31,800
Speaker 5: so My book is called Texom. You can't see it

1469
01:25:31,800 --> 01:25:33,360
Speaker 5: because I've learned my zoom.

1470
01:25:34,080 --> 01:25:36,559
Speaker 4: Oh. Anyway, my book is my memoir.

1471
01:25:36,680 --> 01:25:40,840
Speaker 5: It's about kind of dating as a Muslim woman, which

1472
01:25:40,880 --> 01:25:43,360
Speaker 5: you never get to hear about in a nuanced way.

1473
01:25:43,800 --> 01:25:45,400
Speaker 5: I guess, well you ever get to hear about is

1474
01:25:45,439 --> 01:25:49,160
Speaker 5: Muslim women being repressed. So I'm really excited it's coming

1475
01:25:49,200 --> 01:25:52,479
Speaker 5: out in America. I'm confused because I was told that

1476
01:25:52,720 --> 01:25:54,640
Speaker 5: it's coming out on the twenty ninth of August, but

1477
01:25:54,760 --> 01:25:57,720
Speaker 5: my friend in America said they can already order it now,

1478
01:25:57,880 --> 01:26:00,640
Speaker 5: so if you do want to support you can. You

1479
01:26:00,680 --> 01:26:04,080
Speaker 5: can get your good, older independent bookstore to order it,

1480
01:26:04,200 --> 01:26:08,320
Speaker 5: or you can get it from Amazon or anywhere basically. So,

1481
01:26:08,360 --> 01:26:11,880
Speaker 5: I really enjoyed writing that and hopefully I can write

1482
01:26:11,880 --> 01:26:14,760
Speaker 5: another one. You can find me on Instagram mostly at

1483
01:26:14,840 --> 01:26:18,080
Speaker 5: Sadia underscore asthmats with an at the end. And I

1484
01:26:18,120 --> 01:26:21,360
Speaker 5: also have a website which is Sadia asthmat dot com

1485
01:26:21,400 --> 01:26:23,240
Speaker 5: and it has a free guide if you want to

1486
01:26:23,280 --> 01:26:25,760
Speaker 5: sign up to my mailing list. It's ten things You've

1487
01:26:25,760 --> 01:26:27,880
Speaker 5: always wanted to ask about my head scarf but we're

1488
01:26:27,920 --> 01:26:28,800
Speaker 5: too afraid to ask.

1489
01:26:29,000 --> 01:26:30,800
Speaker 4: So you can download it for free.

1490
01:26:30,880 --> 01:26:33,120
Speaker 5: And it's a little list that I made and that's

1491
01:26:33,160 --> 01:26:34,080
Speaker 5: my plugs.

1492
01:26:34,120 --> 01:26:35,800
Speaker 3: Amazing. Thank you again.

1493
01:26:35,840 --> 01:26:38,240
Speaker 4: And I'm coming to America. Sorry, oh my god, of

1494
01:26:38,280 --> 01:26:38,880
Speaker 4: another movie.

1495
01:26:38,880 --> 01:26:42,040
Speaker 5: I'm coming to New York September and October twenty twenty three.

1496
01:26:42,040 --> 01:26:45,439
Speaker 4: So I'm really excited. So hell yeah, my first ever

1497
01:26:45,560 --> 01:26:49,040
Speaker 4: time in America and I can't wait. I'm so excited.

1498
01:26:49,320 --> 01:26:52,920
Speaker 5: Well, I'm away from the melt More food courts because

1499
01:26:53,080 --> 01:26:54,680
Speaker 5: I hear there's a lot of there's a lot of

1500
01:26:54,720 --> 01:26:56,759
Speaker 5: trouble that goes down there, so I wrote.

1501
01:26:56,560 --> 01:26:57,840
Speaker 1: So dangerous it goes down.

1502
01:26:57,880 --> 01:27:02,840
Speaker 3: Yeah, We'll enjoy your travels, and thanks again for coming

1503
01:27:02,880 --> 01:27:03,439
Speaker 3: on the show.

1504
01:27:03,800 --> 01:27:05,000
Speaker 1: Thank you so much.

1505
01:27:05,400 --> 01:27:10,439
Speaker 3: You can follow us on social media at Bechdel Cast

1506
01:27:11,040 --> 01:27:16,479
Speaker 3: and subscribe to our Matreon at patreon dot com slash

1507
01:27:16,479 --> 01:27:19,720
Speaker 3: Bechdel Cast, where you will get two bonus episodes every

1508
01:27:19,760 --> 01:27:24,880
Speaker 3: single month, always centering a super fun, awesome genius theme.

1509
01:27:25,840 --> 01:27:29,880
Speaker 3: And you'll also get access to our back catalog of many,

1510
01:27:29,920 --> 01:27:33,960
Speaker 3: many episodes, all for five dollars a month.

1511
01:27:33,960 --> 01:27:35,559
Speaker 4: I imagine.

1512
01:27:34,720 --> 01:27:43,920
Speaker 1: And you can also get our our merchover at teapublic

1513
01:27:43,960 --> 01:27:47,639
Speaker 1: dot com slash the Bechdel Cast for all of your

1514
01:27:48,240 --> 01:27:54,920
Speaker 1: merchandizing needs. And on that note, let's get into the

1515
01:27:55,040 --> 01:27:59,880
Speaker 1: car of our recently dead guy we knew and Dry.

1516
01:28:00,080 --> 01:28:02,880
Speaker 1: I have to the airport and go eat prey love

1517
01:28:02,920 --> 01:28:03,720
Speaker 1: in Madrid.

1518
01:28:05,680 --> 01:28:06,960
Speaker 3: Bye bye bye