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Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey there, welcome back.

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Speaker 1: It's The Book of Joe, the most interesting baseball podcast

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Speaker 1: on the planet with Me, Tom Berducci and Joe Madden. Joe,

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Speaker 1: I know you are a voracious reader. Are you looking

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Speaker 1: for a book recommendation these days?

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Speaker 3: Yes? Do you have them for me?

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Speaker 2: I do? Well, let me put it to you this way.

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Speaker 1: Would you like to read a book about John Glenn,

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Speaker 1: American hero?

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Speaker 3: I would actually had to do a book report on

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Speaker 3: a book, not a book report, a report on him

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Speaker 3: after you went into space because I had gotten into

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Speaker 3: some trouble that day at our Lady of Grace School,

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Speaker 3: so that was my punishment. Do I report on John Glenn?

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Speaker 1: How about a book on the great Ted Williams, the

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Speaker 1: last guy to hit four hundred in the big leagues

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Speaker 1: and also an American War hero?

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Speaker 3: Right? I mean I never got to meet mister Williams.

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Speaker 3: I know everybody that worked with him, but never did.

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Speaker 3: And yes, Chuck.

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Speaker 1: Check Okay, So what if I combined both of them

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Speaker 1: and I gave you a book about John Glenn and

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Speaker 1: Ted Williams. Well, it's actually happened, and I didn't do it.

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Speaker 1: Adam Lazareth has wrote a terrific book called The Wingmen,

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Speaker 1: and the subtitle tells you all you need to know

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Speaker 1: about the connection. Here the unlikely, unusual, unbreakable friendship between

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Speaker 1: John Glenn and Ted Williams. Fascinating stuff. The author has

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Speaker 1: joined us, Adam Lazarus. Welcome to the Book of Joe podcast.

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Speaker 2: How are you?

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Speaker 4: I'm good. Thank you very much for having me.

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Speaker 1: Let me start with this, because you know much has

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Speaker 1: been written about both of these American heroes. What for

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Speaker 1: you was the genesis to say the connection between the

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Speaker 1: two of these guys is worth a book?

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Speaker 5: Well, I think the one element of the both their

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Speaker 5: lives that I didn't know very much about was their

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Speaker 5: service in the United States military and particularly in the

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Speaker 5: Korean War. Like you said, a lot has been written

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Speaker 5: about both men. But for Ted Williams, it's mostly focused

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Speaker 5: on his baseball career and everything that he achieved hitting

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Speaker 5: four hundred, like you said. And for John Glenn, it's

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Speaker 5: certainly going to space in nineteen sixty two, being the

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Speaker 5: first American to orbit the Earth. Those are probably the

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Speaker 5: highlights of their careers or their lives. But this element

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Speaker 5: about their service together. But even separately in the Korean

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Speaker 5: War as combat fighter pilots for five months nineteen fifty three.

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Speaker 5: Was really fascinating to me. It's what piqued my interest

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Speaker 5: learning more about their service, their service together, just their

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Speaker 5: lives over there. Ted Williams being pulled out of the

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Speaker 5: middle of his Major League baseball career to serve in

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Speaker 5: a war, which is something that would never happen today.

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Speaker 5: But then later on their friendship kind of ebbed and flowed,

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Speaker 5: but particularly late on and Ted Williams toward the end

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Speaker 5: of his life, he and John Glenn were very close.

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Speaker 5: When Ted Williams is really dying, one of the people

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Speaker 5: he was most in touch with in connection with, was

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Speaker 5: John Glenn, And I thought that was really fascinating that

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Speaker 5: all those years after their service together, after everything they

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Speaker 5: had achieved in their lives, the sort of came back

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Speaker 5: into each other's lives. And I thought it was a

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Speaker 5: great story about friendship and how friendships start, how they continue,

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Speaker 5: how they go through ups and downs. But the whole

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Speaker 5: breadth of the story is what interested me.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, we're going to get to the end of life friendship,

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Speaker 1: because that, to me is one of the most touching

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Speaker 1: parts of the book between John Glenn and Ted Williams,

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Speaker 1: and let's face it, Ted was known as an ornerary

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Speaker 1: son of a gun, and to see and read about

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Speaker 1: that softer side of him with John Glenn, it's really

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Speaker 1: touching right down to their last.

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Speaker 2: Days, at least for Ted Williams. But let's go to

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Speaker 2: the beginning, Adam.

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Speaker 1: From what I understand, they I'm sure I knew of

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Speaker 1: one another, but got to know each other in Korea

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Speaker 1: nineteen fifty two, and as you mentioned, Ted Williams is playing,

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Speaker 1: you know, he's on the Hall of Fame track, one

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Speaker 1: of the great hitters in baseball at that point, and

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Speaker 1: he's a reservist with the Marine Corps. He gets called

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Speaker 1: up and is dropped into I guess it wasn't technically

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Speaker 1: called the Korean War then, but by every measure it

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Speaker 1: was a war. So tell me how Williams and Glenn

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Speaker 1: actually happened, not just to be there at the same time,

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Speaker 1: but to be calm as you right wingmen.

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Speaker 5: Well, it was just by happenstance that they ended up

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Speaker 5: at the same base. They were both shipped to the

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Speaker 5: same area in South Korea, and in February nineteen fifty three,

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Speaker 5: Ted Williams arrived on February third, nineteen fifty three, and

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Speaker 5: John Glenn arrived six days later. It was a small

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Speaker 5: base within a small squadron, so it's just by coincidence

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Speaker 5: that they arrived. Ted Williams, as you mentioned, was a reservist.

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Speaker 5: He did not have very much experience flying jets. He

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Speaker 5: had almost no experience coming into the war. He was

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Speaker 5: recalled in early nineteen fifty two and he learned to

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Speaker 5: fly jets for a couple months before getting shipped off

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Speaker 5: to Korea, but he hadn't really flown a plane since

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Speaker 5: World War Two. He was stationed in Pensacola during World

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Speaker 5: War Two, became a military a Navy flight instructor, but

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Speaker 5: didn't serve abroad. So when he gets recalled in nineteen

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Speaker 5: fifty two, he has a lot of catching up to do.

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Speaker 5: And these reservists were because they had less experience. A

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Speaker 5: lot of them were either younger guys who were new

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Speaker 5: to the Navy or the Marine Corps, or they were

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Speaker 5: reservists like Ted Williams who hadn't flown in many years.

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Speaker 5: They were often assigned to the more experienced career or

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Speaker 5: regular Marines, which John Glenn was John Glenn served for

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Speaker 5: three years in the Navy during World War Two. Was

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Speaker 5: a very accomplished fighter pilot, a real hero one I

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Speaker 5: think six Distinguished Flying Crosses during World War Two, so

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Speaker 5: he had much more experience he was even after the war.

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Speaker 5: He was served overseas in China and Guam. He was

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Speaker 5: a very experienced pilot. So they often paired the more

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Speaker 5: experienced guy like John Glenn with the much more inexperienced

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Speaker 5: reserves Ted Williams. And it turns out that they weren't

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Speaker 5: always paired together, but John Glenn actually liked flying with

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Speaker 5: Ted Williams.

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Speaker 4: One of the reasons why was a lot of.

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Speaker 5: The younger guys didn't like to fly with John Glenn

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Speaker 5: because he was very risky in the area, took a

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Speaker 5: lot of chances. He was, as he said years later,

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Speaker 5: he was sort of trying to win the war all

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Speaker 5: by himself, and Ted Williams was his friends Johnny Pesky

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Speaker 5: and Dom Demagio said this about a years that Ted

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Speaker 5: Williams liked to find an expert in whatever field they

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Speaker 5: were in, and he always liked to pick their brain,

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Speaker 5: even if it wasn't about baseball, it was about fishing

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Speaker 5: or in this case flying an airplane. And so once

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Speaker 5: he learned that John Glenn was really probably the best

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Speaker 5: pilot there over on their squadron at the base in Korea,

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Speaker 5: he sort of liked to pick his brain and talk

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Speaker 5: flying with him. He liked to learn from the best,

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Speaker 5: So after a while that was sort of how they

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Speaker 5: got paired up. Unfortunately, John Glenn was also the operations officer,

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Speaker 5: which within this squadron, so he got to assign his

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Speaker 5: own wingman, which is the person who flies on your

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Speaker 5: wing and sort of follows follows you through the missions

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Speaker 5: and does repeats all your maneuvers. So that's how they

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Speaker 5: became wingmen, and that's how their friendship got started. They

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Speaker 5: had some very harrowing experiences. One mission, John Glenn thought

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Speaker 5: Ted Williams had got him court martialed. Another mission, Ted

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Speaker 5: Williams plane crash landed and it was John Glenn who

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Speaker 5: helped guide him back safely to base. So it was

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Speaker 5: a very interesting way for their friendship to start from

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Speaker 5: a baptism by fire.

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Speaker 3: I'm just listening because the reasons why Ted Williams would

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Speaker 3: be drawn towards John Glenn obviously like as you describe,

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Speaker 3: but those that weren't drawn to fly with John Glenn

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Speaker 3: the fact that maybe he was a little bit reckless.

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Speaker 3: But was he intimidating to these people too? I mean, don't.

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Speaker 3: I don't see Ted Williams as being intimidated by John Glenny.

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Speaker 3: And like you said, he was more attracted to the

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Speaker 3: best and wanted to learn from the best. Was there

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Speaker 3: an intimidating factor to John Glenn at all? Was it

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Speaker 3: just the fact that he was more reckless.

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Speaker 5: I think it was because he was very eager to

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Speaker 5: make with You know, they would with their job and

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Speaker 5: their squadron was to cross across thirtieth parallel go into

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Speaker 5: communists North Korea. They had an area where they were

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Speaker 5: supposed to drop bombs or rockets or shoot up enemy

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Speaker 5: troops on the ground and get back to base. Their

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Speaker 5: planes didn't carry enough fuel to to you know, fly

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Speaker 5: around in circles and do a bunch of stuff out there.

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Speaker 5: They would their their nickname of their squadron was the

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Speaker 5: Bomb and Go Group, So they would just drop their

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Speaker 5: bombs and get back to base. And John Glenn felt

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Speaker 5: it was his duty to do his missions of job,

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Speaker 5: dropping bombs, dropping rockets and then come back, circle around

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Speaker 5: and survey the area, see if there was somewhere he missed,

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Speaker 5: see if there was somewhere else he could take out.

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Speaker 5: And that wasn't really responsibilities of the squadron, especially a

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Speaker 5: leader like John Glenn, but he felt compelled to do

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Speaker 5: all he could. It was sort of an obligation. He

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Speaker 5: was sent to the war very late. He felt he

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Speaker 5: should have been sent a lot earlier. He really wanted

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Speaker 5: to serve his country because he had such great training

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Speaker 5: and such great natural skill. So he would go take

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Speaker 5: these extra chances and go take second and third runs

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Speaker 5: along the same target when most of the other guys wouldn't,

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Speaker 5: and the younger guys would say. I actually talked to

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Speaker 5: one of these younger guys who's still alive. He is

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Speaker 5: in his late nineties. He said nobody wanted to fly

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Speaker 5: with John Glenn because he did this. He would go,

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Speaker 5: he said, he'd drop their bombs and then come around

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Speaker 5: and root around in the trash cans, is how he

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Speaker 5: put it. And that was very dangerous, especially for like

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Speaker 5: either a guy who was, you know, selling insurance six

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Speaker 5: months earlier back in the States, or was a twenty

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Speaker 5: three year old who had.

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Speaker 4: Just gotten out of college.

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Speaker 5: So these guys didn't like to take chances in the air,

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Speaker 5: especially when they were, you know, already didn't really want

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Speaker 5: to be serving. So I think it was less about

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Speaker 5: being intimidated by John Glenn. They certainly knew he was

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Speaker 5: a very accomplished pilot, and then some of them had

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Speaker 5: trained under him at one of the Navy air stations

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Speaker 5: in Corpus Christi, Texas. But I think it was his

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Speaker 5: recklessness in the air that really turned off a lot

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Speaker 5: of people. But yeah, I don't think Ted Williams. Ted

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Speaker 5: Williams was probably never intimidated by anybody in his entire life,

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Speaker 5: so I don't think he was intimidated by that. But again,

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Speaker 5: he liked to be around exceptional people, and I think

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Speaker 5: that's one of the things that drew him to John Glenn,

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Speaker 5: you know, during the Korean War and in all the

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Speaker 5: years after that.

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Speaker 3: I mean, that's such an incredible thought. I mean, it's

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Speaker 3: one thing to take chances in a baseball game, whether

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Speaker 3: it's as a manager, as a left fielder, as whatever.

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Speaker 3: It's another thing to take chances like that with your

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Speaker 3: life and the life of others. I mean, I don't

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Speaker 3: even it's just hard to fathom how a human arrives

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Speaker 3: at that point where he's able to to really face

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Speaker 3: death like John I mean a lot, not just John Glenn,

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Speaker 3: but other people, pilots. I mean, I've always had so

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Speaker 3: much respect for pilots that flying the danger like these

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Speaker 3: guys do. But the mindset of somebody like that is

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Speaker 3: it's just it's incomprehensible.

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Speaker 5: It helps explain how he was willing about ten years

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Speaker 5: later to sit in a tiny little space capsule with

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Speaker 5: two massive rockets underneath him and launch himself into orbit

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Speaker 5: when the same rockets had blown up several times in

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Speaker 5: training exercises. And it explains all the bravery and courage

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Speaker 5: that John Glenn had. You know, you saw it as

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Speaker 5: early as his Marine Corps Flight Fighter pilot training gaze.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: I'm still blown away by the fact that Ted Williams

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Speaker 1: had not flown a plane in seven years, was playing

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Speaker 1: Major League Baseball, and you know, gets called up as

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Speaker 1: a reservist and gets probably limited training on the Panther jet,

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Speaker 1: and all of a sudden he's flying combat missions. I

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Speaker 1: think he flew thirty seven combat missions, and probably half

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Speaker 1: of those with John Glenn in the middle of danger.

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Speaker 1: It's just amazing how quickly things change and you're in

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Speaker 1: literally harm's way with life and death on the line. Adam,

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Speaker 1: I want you to go back, and you mentioned this

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Speaker 1: a couple of stories I want you to tell. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned the possible court martial. I understand it was one

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Speaker 1: of their bombing missions where they were dropping ordinances. They

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Speaker 1: had one left to get rid of and Ted had

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Speaker 1: to dump his and wasn't sure exactly where he was

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Speaker 1: dumping it, and I think John was worried that he

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Speaker 1: was dumping on Allied troops. Yeah, and it wasn't until

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Speaker 1: they got back that it was actually enemy troops.

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Speaker 5: Correct with the best description I heard. Ted Williams and

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Speaker 5: John Glenn too, both told this story many times. Ted

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Speaker 5: Williams told it at an event in Boston one year,

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Speaker 5: and that was sort of the best version of the

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Speaker 5: story I got with all the details. Was they had

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Speaker 5: to drop They weren't supposed to bring back these rockets

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Speaker 5: that they had, or these bombs that they had to base.

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Speaker 5: You weren't supposed to bring anything back. Ted Williams used

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Speaker 5: to say that their their goal when they came back

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Speaker 5: to base was to have nothing it just even if

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Speaker 5: it weren't dropping them on enemies. Theyre supposed to just

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Speaker 5: dump them wherever because they had had a lot of

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Speaker 5: accidents with them and that was what they were instructed

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Speaker 5: to do. So after one successful mission, they both had

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Speaker 5: a couple rockets and a couple bombs left, so John

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Speaker 5: Glenn let them.

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Speaker 4: It was just the two of them. That's what's really

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Speaker 4: interesting about this story. Most of these.

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Speaker 5: Missions were, you know, eight, twelve, fifteen guys. On this

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Speaker 5: one mission, it was just Ted Williams and John Glenn,

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Speaker 5: and John Glenn guided him over to a certain area

264
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Speaker 5: and he dropped what he had left and blew up,

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Speaker 5: and Ted Williams did the same, and he screwed up.

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Speaker 5: He didn't press the master arming switch and so the

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Speaker 5: bombs didn't go off, so he say, figured I'll just

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Speaker 5: circle around and do it again. And when he circled around,

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Speaker 5: he kind of got tangled up and ended up pointing

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Speaker 5: at the opposite direction, which, according to John Glenn's map

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Speaker 5: that he had in his cockpit, looked like a shelter

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Speaker 5: of Allied troops. And John Glenn went berserk, and I

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Speaker 5: can't imagine what he said to him over the radio,

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Speaker 5: but they immediately got back to base and they ran

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Speaker 5: to the operations office, which had the map on the wall,

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Speaker 5: and apparently the the lines had been redrawn recently, and

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Speaker 5: so the area that they bombed was actually enemy troops

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Speaker 5: and not Allied troops. But it was really their first

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Speaker 5: mission together. I don't know how well they knew each

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Speaker 5: other before that, so thought I always thought it was

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Speaker 5: a great way for their friendship to start, because John Glenn,

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Speaker 5: who was normally very reserved and cool and calm under pressure,

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Speaker 5: was chewing Williams out and his face was sweating and

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Speaker 5: he was pale and irate. That's the way Ted Williams

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Speaker 5: described it. And Ted Williams, who everybody knows was very

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Speaker 5: emotional and high strung, was actually very calm about it,

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Speaker 5: because he said years later, he's like, I knew we

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Speaker 5: were I was shooting at the right area.

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Speaker 4: Wasn't that big a deal.

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Speaker 5: But it was a nice sort of role reversal for

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Speaker 5: me to see, especially since Ted Williams. If anybody has

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Speaker 5: any images of meeting Ted Williams, you knew that he

293
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Speaker 5: was very rarely quiet and reserved and confident in what

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Speaker 5: he was saying.

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Speaker 1: Amazing, well, I can't get enough of the stories. The

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Speaker 1: stories are amazing but I do want you to go

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Speaker 1: into one more. And that was the time they were

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Speaker 1: flying back to base and Ted's panther is on fire,

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Speaker 1: he's getting hit by enemy fire, and tell us about

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Speaker 1: how John Glenn helped them get back to base safely.

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Speaker 3: Well.

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Speaker 5: Ted Williams had to at least two really dangerous moments

303
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Speaker 5: when he was serving in the Korean War. One he

304
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Speaker 5: crash landed where he absolutely was lucky to be alive.

305
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Speaker 5: This was in February. This was actually just his second mission.

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Speaker 5: John Glenn wasn't on this mission, but he had bad luck.

307
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Speaker 5: His plane got shot. He didn't want to eject for

308
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Speaker 5: a variety of reasons, one of which he thought he

309
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Speaker 5: would end up breaking his legs and never play baseball again.

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Speaker 4: Another reason was because he was.

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Speaker 1: So tall, right, I mean, it's hard for a guy

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Speaker 1: he's six foot three to eject from a fighter jet.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, he was tall for normal pilots. That one of

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Speaker 5: the ground crew people years later said they had to

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Speaker 5: stand on his shoulders to press him down into the

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Speaker 5: cockpit because he was just too tall for a cockpit.

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Speaker 4: So he had this.

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Speaker 5: Terrible crash in February, and then about two months later

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Speaker 5: he's flying on a mission with John Glenn and his

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Speaker 5: plane gets hit. It turned out his plane was hit

321
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Speaker 5: by a rock, which is really interesting. It wasn't enemy

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Speaker 5: shells or bomb rockets are from the ground thing. A

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Speaker 5: rock had pierced his tip tank on his carrying his

324
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Speaker 5: fuel on his panther, and it led to a fire

325
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Speaker 5: and could have easily blown up the whole plane. But

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Speaker 5: John Glenn helped, pulled up alongside to him, gave him

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Speaker 5: a hand, signals, showed him where to which way to go.

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Speaker 5: What they did in this situation was they would fly

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Speaker 5: as high as possible so that in case they did

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Speaker 5: run out of fuel, since his fuel tank had a

331
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Speaker 5: hole in it, they would get as high as possible

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Speaker 5: so in case they ran out of fuel they could

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Speaker 5: sort of just glide what they call dead stick back

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Speaker 5: to base. And John Glenn was on his wing and

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Speaker 5: telling him, you know, I imagine he was encouraging him and

336
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Speaker 5: telling him to stay calm and telling him which angle

337
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Speaker 5: to go at. And sure enough the plane landed safely

338
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Speaker 5: and Ted Williams was fine, and they found the next

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Speaker 5: The next day they presented him his fellow pilots presented

340
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Speaker 5: him with the rock. They found it inside the tip tank.

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Speaker 5: They put a little bow on it and they gave

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Speaker 5: it to him and said, this is another another thing

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Speaker 5: that nearly brought you down. So they they had some

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Speaker 5: some good missions, some good tails together.

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Speaker 2: Yeah that's better than an MVP trophy.

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Speaker 1: And too that by John glenn signaling signaling to Ted

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Speaker 1: to fly higher, that the air is thinner and there's

348
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Speaker 1: less oxygen to feed the fire.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, that's one other reason they would do that was

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Speaker 5: the thinner air would keep it from from the flames expanding. Yeah,

351
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Speaker 5: that was that happened quite often in these missions. There

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Speaker 5: weren't that many casualties in Ted Williams and John Glenns squadron,

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Speaker 5: especially because these missions were not the you know the

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Speaker 5: famous movie scene dog fights where two planes are shooting

355
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Speaker 5: at each other. Their missions were usually just going across

356
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Speaker 5: the border, dropping bombs and going home. But they did

357
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Speaker 5: have people shooting at them from the ground with anti

358
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Speaker 5: aircraft our cannons and people with small arms fire because

359
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Speaker 5: they got very low to the ground. They got sometimes

360
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Speaker 5: one hundred and fifty two hundred feet off the ground,

361
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Speaker 5: and so somebody could shoot at them with a rifle

362
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Speaker 5: and that was one some people actually think after Ted

363
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Speaker 5: Williams first plane crash that it was actually small arms

364
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Speaker 5: fire that had brought him down, that had put a

365
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Speaker 5: hole in his aircraft. So these were very dangerous missions.

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Speaker 5: They didn't have, as I said, they didn't have a

367
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Speaker 5: lot of casualties, but they did get shot planes did

368
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Speaker 5: get shot up and come back flaming and without a

369
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Speaker 5: lot of their equipment. So they were dangerous missions every

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Speaker 5: time they suited up in the morning.

371
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Speaker 1: Joe, it sounds like top gun, but is real stuff,

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Speaker 1: life and death.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, that's why I'm listening so intently. I

374
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Speaker 3: don't have so much respect for anybody that served in

375
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Speaker 3: the military. Then you serve in actual combat in the military.

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Speaker 3: You know. My pop was a ground guy during World

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Speaker 3: War Two in Germany. So were my uncles, and it's

378
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Speaker 3: something I never participated in. I was at that juncture

379
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Speaker 3: when I was at Lafayette with there there was a number,

380
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Speaker 3: a lottery number attached to your name regarding being called

381
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Speaker 3: to the service and not My number was very high,

382
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Speaker 3: and at that time was very grateful. As you move

383
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Speaker 3: farther along as you got older, as I got older,

384
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Speaker 3: It's one of the one of the regrets that I've

385
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Speaker 3: had is the fact that I never served. I you know,

386
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Speaker 3: you see what's going on in the world today, even

387
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Speaker 3: even when you look at the Israeli troops right now,

388
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Speaker 3: a lot of the people serving with Israel right now,

389
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Speaker 3: these folks, some of these kids came to the United States,

390
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Speaker 3: quit school and went back to serving the military in Israel.

391
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Speaker 3: And I got so much respect for that. And this

392
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Speaker 3: is part of our culture that I don't think is

393
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Speaker 3: obviously adhere to nearly as much. I mean, at that

394
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Speaker 3: time was a World War, and in the Korean conflict

395
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Speaker 3: after that, and it made youngsters like Ted Williams or

396
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Speaker 3: and he was in a youngster youngster, but nevertheless I

397
00:18:33,398 --> 00:18:35,478
Speaker 3: think he felt more compelled to join and fight for

398
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Speaker 3: I don't think that under the circumstance, and hope we

399
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Speaker 3: never get to it again where the magnitude of the

400
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Speaker 3: war doesn't make Just like in Ukraine right now, there's

401
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Speaker 3: sixty year old men and women are volunteering to go

402
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Speaker 3: back into the service there to fight for their soil,

403
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Speaker 3: for their land, And there's a difference I think with

404
00:18:52,678 --> 00:18:55,158
Speaker 3: all of that. So I'm a'm convoluted right now. My

405
00:18:55,198 --> 00:18:58,998
Speaker 3: point is I really respect what these people have done

406
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Speaker 3: in the past and the future. And I'm even going

407
00:19:01,518 --> 00:19:03,398
Speaker 3: to say this, I'd love to see and I think

408
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Speaker 3: a lot of different ways if we had conscription brought back,

409
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Speaker 3: the draft was brought back, I really believe that would

410
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Speaker 3: help solve some of society's issues by you know, so

411
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Speaker 3: many youngsters, young men primarily its young men, some young

412
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Speaker 3: male problem. Get these young males some kind of direction,

413
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Speaker 3: whether militarily speaking, whether it's I'm not saying the fight

414
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Speaker 3: necessarily just to be part of a military disci will

415
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Speaker 3: wake up in the morning, work out, learn a craft, whatever,

416
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Speaker 3: as opposed to hanging out like like a lot of

417
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Speaker 3: the kids are doing in a lot of the inner cities.

418
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Speaker 3: There's there's so much that could be positively done. I

419
00:19:40,678 --> 00:19:44,558
Speaker 3: think through utilizing the military service in a way that

420
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Speaker 3: not only helps obviously defend your country, but there's other

421
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Speaker 3: ways that can help to raise better young men.

422
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Speaker 4: Yeah, you raised a good point that about it.

423
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Speaker 5: It was obviously a different time, but World War Two,

424
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Speaker 5: everybody enlisted after Pearl Harbord, John Glenn went out and

425
00:20:03,398 --> 00:20:06,838
Speaker 5: enlisted twice actually because he enlisted in the Army Air

426
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Speaker 5: Corps and they didn't call him back after two weeks,

427
00:20:08,718 --> 00:20:11,798
Speaker 5: so he drove up to a Navy recruitment station and

428
00:20:11,878 --> 00:20:13,878
Speaker 5: listed in the Navy, and that's how he ended up

429
00:20:13,918 --> 00:20:16,438
Speaker 5: becoming a marine. Ted Williams was a little bit different.

430
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Speaker 5: Ted Williams was in the middle of his base Boker.

431
00:20:18,558 --> 00:20:21,278
Speaker 5: He had hit four h six in nineteen forty one.

432
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Speaker 5: Obviously he won the Triple Crown the next year. He

433
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Speaker 5: did not want to really serve. He enlisted sort of

434
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Speaker 5: out of pressure and was sent to serve in the

435
00:20:29,918 --> 00:20:32,118
Speaker 5: Navy during World War Two, and the same thing happened

436
00:20:32,158 --> 00:20:34,638
Speaker 5: with Korea. He did not want to serve. He went

437
00:20:34,718 --> 00:20:36,278
Speaker 5: out of his way to get out of it. Actually,

438
00:20:36,278 --> 00:20:38,118
Speaker 5: a good portion of the early part of my book

439
00:20:38,438 --> 00:20:40,918
Speaker 5: is detailing how he eventually essentially went out of his

440
00:20:40,958 --> 00:20:45,438
Speaker 5: way to have lawyers and then powerful politicians sort of

441
00:20:45,478 --> 00:20:47,758
Speaker 5: get his deferments so he didn't have to go. So

442
00:20:47,758 --> 00:20:50,398
Speaker 5: it didn't really reflect great on him. But I will

443
00:20:50,438 --> 00:20:52,998
Speaker 5: say is, and this is something John Glenn echoed years later,

444
00:20:53,478 --> 00:20:55,878
Speaker 5: was after he realized he was going and he was

445
00:20:55,878 --> 00:20:57,198
Speaker 5: going to be there and he was going to serve,

446
00:20:57,638 --> 00:21:00,278
Speaker 5: he gave us all. He did everything he could. He

447
00:21:00,358 --> 00:21:02,838
Speaker 5: knew he had a responsibility not just to his squadron

448
00:21:02,878 --> 00:21:04,998
Speaker 5: and to the Marines and the military. But there he

449
00:21:05,038 --> 00:21:07,198
Speaker 5: was setting an example for the other people, especially the

450
00:21:07,238 --> 00:21:09,438
Speaker 5: young people who were being sent over to the Korean War.

451
00:21:10,478 --> 00:21:13,318
Speaker 5: So while Ted Williams was something of a reluctant marine

452
00:21:13,398 --> 00:21:16,718
Speaker 5: or a reluctant war hero, I think he deserves credit for,

453
00:21:17,158 --> 00:21:19,878
Speaker 5: you know, stepping in when he was asked. He actually

454
00:21:19,878 --> 00:21:22,278
Speaker 5: said years later, I could have gotten a safe desk job.

455
00:21:22,318 --> 00:21:24,718
Speaker 5: There were plenty of safe desk jobs. But if he

456
00:21:24,798 --> 00:21:26,318
Speaker 5: was going to be if he was going to be

457
00:21:26,398 --> 00:21:29,118
Speaker 5: forced to serve and miss time playing baseball, he wanted

458
00:21:29,158 --> 00:21:32,598
Speaker 5: to do something worthwhile, like flying a jet into enemy

459
00:21:32,678 --> 00:21:36,478
Speaker 5: territory and dropping bombs. So, and in the flip side

460
00:21:36,518 --> 00:21:38,958
Speaker 5: of that is John Glenn. John Glenn was probably one

461
00:21:38,998 --> 00:21:41,318
Speaker 5: of the greatest public servants in the history of our

462
00:21:41,358 --> 00:21:45,198
Speaker 5: country for his entire life, from the time he enlisted

463
00:21:45,238 --> 00:21:47,278
Speaker 5: in the Navy in nineteen forty two to the day

464
00:21:47,278 --> 00:21:50,438
Speaker 5: he died in twenty sixteen. So I think those guys,

465
00:21:50,478 --> 00:21:52,198
Speaker 5: while it was a different generation and it was a

466
00:21:52,198 --> 00:21:55,078
Speaker 5: different era in America, they are a great example of

467
00:21:55,118 --> 00:21:56,918
Speaker 5: people who were giving back to their country.

468
00:21:57,278 --> 00:22:02,278
Speaker 1: The book is Wingman, The Unlikely Unusual unbreakable friendship between

469
00:22:02,358 --> 00:22:05,118
Speaker 1: John Glenn and Ted william our guests is the author

470
00:22:05,278 --> 00:22:07,478
Speaker 1: Adam Lazarus. We're gonna take a quick break when we

471
00:22:07,518 --> 00:22:10,718
Speaker 1: get back. Hey, it's one thing to be thrown together

472
00:22:11,158 --> 00:22:14,958
Speaker 1: because of battle. It's another thing to have the friendship

473
00:22:15,078 --> 00:22:30,838
Speaker 1: really take off in peacetime. We'll discuss that next. Welcome

474
00:22:30,878 --> 00:22:33,758
Speaker 1: back to the book Joe Podcast. Our guest Adam Lazarus

475
00:22:33,758 --> 00:22:37,398
Speaker 1: has written Wingman about John Glenn and Ted Williams their friendship.

476
00:22:37,958 --> 00:22:41,758
Speaker 1: Ted Williams was discharged from Marines on July twenty eighth,

477
00:22:41,998 --> 00:22:46,518
Speaker 1: nineteen fifty three, comes comes back to the major leagues

478
00:22:46,918 --> 00:22:50,398
Speaker 1: after serving in Korea, and oh, by the way, hits

479
00:22:50,518 --> 00:22:53,598
Speaker 1: four oh seven in thirty seven games for the rest

480
00:22:53,598 --> 00:22:54,158
Speaker 1: of the season.

481
00:22:54,278 --> 00:22:55,318
Speaker 2: Just amazing hitter.

482
00:22:56,238 --> 00:23:01,598
Speaker 1: But Adam, the friendship, as unlikely as it is, becomes

483
00:23:01,638 --> 00:23:04,878
Speaker 1: a lasting one when you think about They had very

484
00:23:05,118 --> 00:23:09,158
Speaker 1: very little in common when you think about their backgrounds.

485
00:23:09,318 --> 00:23:11,838
Speaker 1: Ted Williams, of course growing up in San Diego, basically

486
00:23:11,918 --> 00:23:15,678
Speaker 1: an atheist. His mom was working for the Salvation Army.

487
00:23:15,718 --> 00:23:18,558
Speaker 1: His dad was an alcoholic, wasn't around. Ted Williams comes

488
00:23:18,558 --> 00:23:22,958
Speaker 1: from this stern, very tight knit Presbyterian family in Ohio

489
00:23:23,598 --> 00:23:26,598
Speaker 1: politically on opposite ends of the spectrum as much as

490
00:23:26,598 --> 00:23:32,078
Speaker 1: you can. How did this friendship survive and actually thrive

491
00:23:32,678 --> 00:23:35,798
Speaker 1: among the differences between the two of these men.

492
00:23:36,238 --> 00:23:38,438
Speaker 4: Certainly their service together is something. You know.

493
00:23:38,638 --> 00:23:41,118
Speaker 5: We all hear tales and I know about my grandfather

494
00:23:41,118 --> 00:23:43,678
Speaker 5: who served in the Navy during World War Two. Some

495
00:23:43,718 --> 00:23:45,758
Speaker 5: of his closest friends lad in life were guys he

496
00:23:45,798 --> 00:23:48,598
Speaker 5: had served with. There is that whole idea of band

497
00:23:48,638 --> 00:23:52,238
Speaker 5: of brothers or however you want to explain it. John

498
00:23:52,278 --> 00:23:54,558
Speaker 5: Glenn even said, you know, when you fly into combat

499
00:23:54,598 --> 00:23:56,518
Speaker 5: with someone like you did with Ted Williams, there's a

500
00:23:56,558 --> 00:23:59,118
Speaker 5: bond you can't even describe. And I think there's something

501
00:23:59,158 --> 00:24:01,718
Speaker 5: to that. I'm sure that only goes so far. They're

502
00:24:01,998 --> 00:24:04,358
Speaker 5: probably guys who served together who couldn't stand each other.

503
00:24:04,998 --> 00:24:07,558
Speaker 5: But I think one of the things that I learned

504
00:24:07,558 --> 00:24:11,198
Speaker 5: about John Glenn and Ted Williams relationship was best explained

505
00:24:11,198 --> 00:24:13,478
Speaker 5: to me by John Glenn's son. His son David told

506
00:24:13,518 --> 00:24:16,198
Speaker 5: me he pointed out all those exact things, that they

507
00:24:16,198 --> 00:24:18,358
Speaker 5: were complete polar ends of the spectrum when it came

508
00:24:18,398 --> 00:24:23,238
Speaker 5: to everything, politics, life, ethics, everything. You know. John Glenn

509
00:24:23,438 --> 00:24:25,318
Speaker 5: was married to the same woman for seventy three years,

510
00:24:25,358 --> 00:24:27,318
Speaker 5: loved his children. There were the most important people in

511
00:24:27,318 --> 00:24:30,398
Speaker 5: his life. Ted Williams's three ex wives had very difficult

512
00:24:30,438 --> 00:24:34,238
Speaker 5: relationships with his children. Todd Ted Williams swore every fifth

513
00:24:34,278 --> 00:24:36,598
Speaker 5: word was a four letter word. John Glenn was very

514
00:24:36,678 --> 00:24:40,278
Speaker 5: quiet and reserved. But John Glenn's son told me that

515
00:24:40,358 --> 00:24:41,998
Speaker 5: I think that was one of the reasons why they

516
00:24:41,998 --> 00:24:43,998
Speaker 5: were friends was because they were so different that they

517
00:24:44,078 --> 00:24:47,038
Speaker 5: learned a lot about people and a lot about their

518
00:24:47,038 --> 00:24:50,478
Speaker 5: community and who they were learned by seeing someone totally

519
00:24:50,478 --> 00:24:53,278
Speaker 5: different than them. I have a letter that John Glenn

520
00:24:53,358 --> 00:24:56,438
Speaker 5: wrote home to his family during the Korean War where

521
00:24:56,438 --> 00:24:58,638
Speaker 5: he's describing a mission that he flew with Ted Williams,

522
00:24:59,438 --> 00:25:02,358
Speaker 5: and he just says something very simple. He says, what

523
00:25:02,398 --> 00:25:04,918
Speaker 5: a character. And to me, it really opened it up

524
00:25:05,038 --> 00:25:07,918
Speaker 5: how to understand their friendship was John Glenn never met

525
00:25:07,958 --> 00:25:11,558
Speaker 5: someone like Ted Williams. Maybe all the people he encountered

526
00:25:11,558 --> 00:25:14,038
Speaker 5: his entire life. He lived to be ninety five, Ted

527
00:25:14,078 --> 00:25:16,798
Speaker 5: Williams was probably the most unique person he ever met,

528
00:25:16,838 --> 00:25:23,678
Speaker 5: the singular human being with personality deficiencies and humor and way.

529
00:25:23,558 --> 00:25:24,478
Speaker 4: He carried himself.

530
00:25:24,678 --> 00:25:26,598
Speaker 5: I think it was really appealing to John Glenn to

531
00:25:26,598 --> 00:25:28,798
Speaker 5: meet this kind of guy, and the flip side was

532
00:25:29,238 --> 00:25:31,958
Speaker 5: that Ted Williams probably didn't meet many people like John Glenn,

533
00:25:31,958 --> 00:25:34,318
Speaker 5: and I think he learned a lot about the culture

534
00:25:34,358 --> 00:25:38,678
Speaker 5: of the Marine Corps and this astronaut mentality public servants,

535
00:25:38,918 --> 00:25:41,678
Speaker 5: someone who served in the Senate for four terms, so

536
00:25:41,718 --> 00:25:43,758
Speaker 5: I think they both learned a lot from each other.

537
00:25:43,798 --> 00:25:46,518
Speaker 5: The other thing that really I came to understand with

538
00:25:46,558 --> 00:25:50,198
Speaker 5: how their friendship not only maintained but developed and grew

539
00:25:50,238 --> 00:25:53,918
Speaker 5: over time was that they just had an undying respect

540
00:25:53,918 --> 00:25:57,438
Speaker 5: for one another. Ted Williams talked about seeing John Glenn

541
00:25:57,438 --> 00:25:59,718
Speaker 5: in the cockpit during the Korean War. He called him

542
00:25:59,758 --> 00:26:02,038
Speaker 5: cool as a cucumber. And I think, especially since Ted

543
00:26:02,078 --> 00:26:05,318
Speaker 5: Williams was not exactly a great fighter pilot during the

544
00:26:05,358 --> 00:26:08,638
Speaker 5: Korean War, he was just so impressed and wowed by

545
00:26:08,638 --> 00:26:10,958
Speaker 5: what John Glenn was able to do in the as

546
00:26:10,998 --> 00:26:13,158
Speaker 5: Alot as a fighter pilot and then years later as

547
00:26:13,158 --> 00:26:16,278
Speaker 5: a NASA astronaut, that he just had so much respect

548
00:26:16,278 --> 00:26:18,758
Speaker 5: for him many many years later, particularly when John Glenn

549
00:26:18,758 --> 00:26:21,398
Speaker 5: goes back to space at age seventy seven in nineteen

550
00:26:21,478 --> 00:26:23,718
Speaker 5: ninety eight. Ted Williams is one of the people who

551
00:26:23,718 --> 00:26:27,478
Speaker 5: attends the launch. He continually talks about how that's my hero,

552
00:26:27,598 --> 00:26:30,638
Speaker 5: that's my idol. So to Ted Williams, John Glenn was

553
00:26:30,718 --> 00:26:32,918
Speaker 5: his idol, which I thought is really remarkable, and this

554
00:26:33,158 --> 00:26:36,118
Speaker 5: sort of helped explain this friendship. As for John Glenn,

555
00:26:36,158 --> 00:26:39,798
Speaker 5: he often said, you know, Ted Williams was a great pilot.

556
00:26:39,838 --> 00:26:42,318
Speaker 5: He was someone, you know, the best wingman I ever had.

557
00:26:42,358 --> 00:26:44,278
Speaker 5: I think he was kind of exaggerating when he said that,

558
00:26:44,638 --> 00:26:47,598
Speaker 5: but he talked about giving up his baseball career for

559
00:26:47,638 --> 00:26:49,958
Speaker 5: all those years to serve in the military, particularly during

560
00:26:49,998 --> 00:26:53,158
Speaker 5: the Korean War, and he was very impressed that he

561
00:26:52,878 --> 00:26:54,958
Speaker 5: never he says he never heard him complain. He never

562
00:26:54,998 --> 00:26:56,998
Speaker 5: heard him say I should be at home, you know,

563
00:26:57,038 --> 00:26:59,478
Speaker 5: playing baseball with one hundred thousand dollars a year contract.

564
00:26:59,678 --> 00:27:02,838
Speaker 5: I shouldn't be eating these k rations or these terrible

565
00:27:02,838 --> 00:27:05,478
Speaker 5: foods and you know, served in the mess hall. He

566
00:27:05,518 --> 00:27:08,078
Speaker 5: should have been dining out on stakes in downtown Boston

567
00:27:08,158 --> 00:27:11,038
Speaker 5: or whatever. And I think that was one of the

568
00:27:11,038 --> 00:27:13,038
Speaker 5: things that John Gunn really respected about him was that

569
00:27:13,038 --> 00:27:15,318
Speaker 5: he never complained about being called back into the Marine

570
00:27:15,358 --> 00:27:18,438
Speaker 5: Corps and having dismissed basically two years of his prime

571
00:27:18,478 --> 00:27:21,678
Speaker 5: baseball career, So that was something for me that always

572
00:27:21,798 --> 00:27:25,278
Speaker 5: helped me understand why they had this mutual relationship.

573
00:27:25,838 --> 00:27:26,798
Speaker 2: Joe, it's interesting.

574
00:27:27,038 --> 00:27:29,598
Speaker 1: I want to run this by you because it reminds

575
00:27:29,638 --> 00:27:33,838
Speaker 1: me this friendship that Adam is so eloquently describing. I've

576
00:27:33,878 --> 00:27:37,158
Speaker 1: seen a little bit among players where there are major

577
00:27:37,238 --> 00:27:39,278
Speaker 1: league players are the best in the world, but within

578
00:27:39,358 --> 00:27:43,118
Speaker 1: that group is a subgroup of the truly elite, and

579
00:27:43,118 --> 00:27:48,358
Speaker 1: it's almost as if they share a bond and unspoken language.

580
00:27:48,358 --> 00:27:50,238
Speaker 1: You don't talking about like an Otani and a Mike

581
00:27:50,318 --> 00:27:54,558
Speaker 1: Trout together. And I think that John Glenn and Ted

582
00:27:54,598 --> 00:28:00,198
Speaker 1: Williams probably saw in one another this extreme level of excellence,

583
00:28:00,198 --> 00:28:04,798
Speaker 1: this rarity of elitism, if you will, and skill and approach.

584
00:28:05,798 --> 00:28:08,478
Speaker 1: I'm not sure, Joe, if you've seen that among baseball players,

585
00:28:08,518 --> 00:28:12,438
Speaker 1: that there is a connection there despite whatever cultural societal

586
00:28:12,478 --> 00:28:15,078
Speaker 1: differences there may be, But somethings share that I think

587
00:28:15,118 --> 00:28:17,238
Speaker 1: both recognize as something special.

588
00:28:17,638 --> 00:28:20,958
Speaker 3: Well, there's somebody that they can share their experiences with

589
00:28:21,038 --> 00:28:25,838
Speaker 3: that understands I mean, not everybody understands somebody that performs

590
00:28:25,958 --> 00:28:30,318
Speaker 3: or orbits on that particular level. That's where it's different.

591
00:28:30,438 --> 00:28:34,838
Speaker 3: So that when you talk about Glenn and Williams stands

592
00:28:34,838 --> 00:28:38,718
Speaker 3: out to me is that they never met anybody like

593
00:28:39,678 --> 00:28:42,238
Speaker 3: each other before, so it was they did in the

594
00:28:42,278 --> 00:28:44,838
Speaker 3: sense that they were perfectionists. Probably they were. They were

595
00:28:44,878 --> 00:28:46,878
Speaker 3: they were the best at what they did, whether it

596
00:28:46,918 --> 00:28:51,238
Speaker 3: was baseball or as a as a fighter pilot that

597
00:28:51,318 --> 00:28:54,238
Speaker 3: Glenn was, but there there was a mutual respect just

598
00:28:54,358 --> 00:28:58,718
Speaker 3: based on their abilities and both although you've said it

599
00:28:58,758 --> 00:29:01,718
Speaker 3: earlier that Glenn wasn't necessarily attracted to the baseball thing

600
00:29:01,798 --> 00:29:04,998
Speaker 3: with with Williams, but he had to be attracted to

601
00:29:05,038 --> 00:29:07,438
Speaker 3: like you're saying, is sense of duty, is discipline, is

602
00:29:07,518 --> 00:29:10,838
Speaker 3: competitive nature, everything that you'd probably want still in a

603
00:29:10,878 --> 00:29:14,398
Speaker 3: fighter pilot that he recognized in him, And of course

604
00:29:14,598 --> 00:29:17,838
Speaker 3: I think I can identify with this. Williams loved the

605
00:29:17,878 --> 00:29:20,718
Speaker 3: fact that he didn't care. Glenn didn't care that he

606
00:29:20,718 --> 00:29:23,038
Speaker 3: was a baseball guy, that he hit four hundred, that

607
00:29:23,118 --> 00:29:24,558
Speaker 3: he was All Star, that he's one of the best

608
00:29:24,558 --> 00:29:26,918
Speaker 3: players used you know Teddy ball game, that he's the

609
00:29:26,918 --> 00:29:29,318
Speaker 3: best hiterver. He didn't give a crap about that, and

610
00:29:29,358 --> 00:29:32,918
Speaker 3: that really resonated for Williams too, the fact that somebody

611
00:29:32,958 --> 00:29:35,918
Speaker 3: did dig him and respected him for just him being him.

612
00:29:36,318 --> 00:29:40,598
Speaker 3: As opposed to this magnificent baseball player. So when you're

613
00:29:40,598 --> 00:29:44,238
Speaker 3: talking about with baseball players specifically, like Tommy brought up,

614
00:29:44,718 --> 00:29:48,118
Speaker 3: there's a level. I mean, some guys just they just again,

615
00:29:48,158 --> 00:29:51,598
Speaker 3: they orbit on a different level. And maybe it takes

616
00:29:52,238 --> 00:29:56,598
Speaker 3: Trout to understand, which shows up to her vice versa. However,

617
00:29:57,478 --> 00:30:01,318
Speaker 3: maybe this might be contradictory. But also there's this desire

618
00:30:02,198 --> 00:30:05,278
Speaker 3: from the superstar guy to really hang out with somebody

619
00:30:05,278 --> 00:30:07,798
Speaker 3: that's not at all like you need humor, you need

620
00:30:07,838 --> 00:30:10,078
Speaker 3: somebody that you need the floil. You need somebody that

621
00:30:10,518 --> 00:30:13,998
Speaker 3: deflates the balloon a little bit, that helps you relax

622
00:30:14,078 --> 00:30:17,358
Speaker 3: a bit. Againess, it takes all time. But the thing

623
00:30:17,398 --> 00:30:19,238
Speaker 3: that really stood out as you're explaining all this to

624
00:30:19,318 --> 00:30:22,558
Speaker 3: me was the attraction was based on the fact that

625
00:30:22,598 --> 00:30:25,718
Speaker 3: Williams never met anybody like Glenn before, and Glenn never

626
00:30:25,758 --> 00:30:28,118
Speaker 3: met anybody like Williams before. That's what I'm hearing.

627
00:30:28,478 --> 00:30:31,038
Speaker 5: Yeah, you're and you're also right, tom you touched on

628
00:30:31,078 --> 00:30:35,118
Speaker 5: something else and this helps explain their friendship. In the

629
00:30:35,158 --> 00:30:38,718
Speaker 5: later years. John Glenn was not an international celebrity and

630
00:30:39,078 --> 00:30:42,278
Speaker 5: icon for Americana during the Korean War. It wasn't until

631
00:30:42,318 --> 00:30:44,798
Speaker 5: he went to Space in nineteen sixty two, ten years

632
00:30:44,838 --> 00:30:48,358
Speaker 5: later that he is meeting with President Kennedy frequently. You know,

633
00:30:48,398 --> 00:30:50,358
Speaker 5: everybody wants to shake his hand. He's on the cover

634
00:30:50,438 --> 00:30:54,398
Speaker 5: of Time magazine, Life Magazine, on TV. Every newspaper had

635
00:30:54,478 --> 00:30:57,478
Speaker 5: him on the cover after he returned from space. Ted

636
00:30:57,478 --> 00:30:59,398
Speaker 5: Williams was on the cover of Life magazine at age

637
00:30:59,438 --> 00:31:02,278
Speaker 5: twenty three in nineteen forty one. So he was a

638
00:31:02,958 --> 00:31:06,398
Speaker 5: national celebrity from nineteen thirty nine to the day he

639
00:31:06,438 --> 00:31:08,678
Speaker 5: died in two thousand and two. John Glenn would became

640
00:31:08,678 --> 00:31:11,358
Speaker 5: a national celebrity a little bit later, but for the

641
00:31:11,398 --> 00:31:14,678
Speaker 5: second half of their lives, they both kind of understood

642
00:31:14,718 --> 00:31:17,158
Speaker 5: what it was like to not be able to walk

643
00:31:17,198 --> 00:31:19,598
Speaker 5: down the street without fifty people coming at you wanting

644
00:31:19,598 --> 00:31:22,158
Speaker 5: your autograph or to take a picture or whatever. And

645
00:31:22,238 --> 00:31:24,238
Speaker 5: I think that touches on what you were saying about

646
00:31:25,238 --> 00:31:28,958
Speaker 5: two superstars, even in a culture of Major League Baseball,

647
00:31:29,238 --> 00:31:33,198
Speaker 5: having something to connect over that is dealing with celebrity idea.

648
00:31:33,318 --> 00:31:33,478
Speaker 4: Right.

649
00:31:34,238 --> 00:31:36,318
Speaker 5: Ted Williams, I don't think dealt with celebrity very well,

650
00:31:36,358 --> 00:31:38,958
Speaker 5: whereas John Glenn dealt with it very well. But I

651
00:31:38,998 --> 00:31:41,318
Speaker 5: think they learned from each other and that was something

652
00:31:41,318 --> 00:31:44,238
Speaker 5: else they shared in common was this idea of being

653
00:31:44,238 --> 00:31:47,398
Speaker 5: a household name and all the responsibilities that went with that.

654
00:31:47,798 --> 00:31:47,998
Speaker 1: Yeah.

655
00:31:47,998 --> 00:31:49,118
Speaker 2: I love the one story.

656
00:31:49,158 --> 00:31:52,838
Speaker 1: It's nineteen fifty seven and John Glenn it becomes the

657
00:31:52,838 --> 00:31:57,958
Speaker 1: first person first supersonic transcontinental flight across the US and

658
00:31:57,998 --> 00:31:59,998
Speaker 1: Ted Williams is playing a game in Kansas City. He

659
00:32:00,078 --> 00:32:01,838
Speaker 1: goes off to the Western Union off Its to send

660
00:32:01,878 --> 00:32:06,438
Speaker 1: a telegram to John Glenn his congratulations on record. I'm

661
00:32:06,478 --> 00:32:09,598
Speaker 1: a big shot now telling everyone I flew with you

662
00:32:09,638 --> 00:32:11,558
Speaker 1: in Korea, Ted Williams.

663
00:32:11,758 --> 00:32:14,318
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's one of my favorite stories in the book.

664
00:32:14,318 --> 00:32:16,958
Speaker 4: I actually have a copy of the telegram, which is interesting.

665
00:32:17,038 --> 00:32:20,398
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's great for him to For Ted Williams is

666
00:32:20,478 --> 00:32:22,798
Speaker 5: at the time, other than maybe Mickey Mantle, the biggest

667
00:32:22,838 --> 00:32:25,398
Speaker 5: athlete in America. It's telling people that he knew John

668
00:32:25,398 --> 00:32:27,478
Speaker 5: Glenns and now he's a big shot. Yeah, that's really

669
00:32:27,598 --> 00:32:28,678
Speaker 5: that is a great story.

670
00:32:28,918 --> 00:32:32,238
Speaker 1: But Adam getting getting back to the politics of it.

671
00:32:32,318 --> 00:32:35,038
Speaker 1: Of course, you know Williams he loved Herbert Hoover.

672
00:32:35,198 --> 00:32:36,198
Speaker 2: He was a Nixon guy.

673
00:32:37,158 --> 00:32:40,838
Speaker 1: John Glenn is running for the presidential nomination at nineteen

674
00:32:40,878 --> 00:32:44,038
Speaker 1: eighty four and Ted Williams doesn't support his buddy.

675
00:32:44,438 --> 00:32:48,238
Speaker 5: Yeah, that's it's you know, I've talked a lot about

676
00:32:48,238 --> 00:32:50,038
Speaker 5: this book since it came out. Someone said to me

677
00:32:51,038 --> 00:32:54,198
Speaker 5: that that's a good sign of how committed Ted Williams was.

678
00:32:54,158 --> 00:32:55,958
Speaker 4: To his politics and his beliefs.

679
00:32:56,318 --> 00:32:59,118
Speaker 5: And he wouldn't even step across the party line to

680
00:32:59,158 --> 00:33:01,238
Speaker 5: help out his friend. But yeah, that's sort of an

681
00:33:01,238 --> 00:33:04,198
Speaker 5: interesting point in their friendship. Ted Williams was, you know,

682
00:33:04,478 --> 00:33:06,598
Speaker 5: very good friends with Nixon. Nixon used to visit him

683
00:33:06,598 --> 00:33:09,078
Speaker 5: in the locker room at RFK Stadium when he managed

684
00:33:09,118 --> 00:33:12,478
Speaker 5: the Senators. He was frequent guests at the White House.

685
00:33:12,678 --> 00:33:15,478
Speaker 5: Nixon would call him from Camp David to talk to him,

686
00:33:16,238 --> 00:33:18,798
Speaker 5: and he was a big supporter of Republicans for as

687
00:33:18,798 --> 00:33:21,118
Speaker 5: far back as he could remember. John Glenn runs for

688
00:33:21,158 --> 00:33:23,238
Speaker 5: president as a Democrat in nineteen eighty four, and his

689
00:33:23,318 --> 00:33:25,598
Speaker 5: campaign does not get off to a very good start,

690
00:33:25,638 --> 00:33:28,598
Speaker 5: and someone after a while floats the idea of we're

691
00:33:28,598 --> 00:33:30,638
Speaker 5: going up to Massachusetts. Why don't you asked Ted Williams

692
00:33:30,678 --> 00:33:34,278
Speaker 5: to endorse you, and they ran it by Ted Williams

693
00:33:34,278 --> 00:33:37,438
Speaker 5: and he said he wouldn't do it, and he said here.

694
00:33:37,518 --> 00:33:39,278
Speaker 5: A couple of years later, he was interviewed by Bob

695
00:33:39,358 --> 00:33:44,238
Speaker 5: Costas for one of Costas's radio shows, and he basically

696
00:33:44,318 --> 00:33:46,958
Speaker 5: said he came as close to saying he wished he

697
00:33:47,038 --> 00:33:49,398
Speaker 5: had voted for him. He wished he had supported him,

698
00:33:49,798 --> 00:33:51,398
Speaker 5: but he couldn't do it because he was a Republican.

699
00:33:51,398 --> 00:33:53,798
Speaker 5: That was something he often said. If Todd Ted Williams

700
00:33:53,838 --> 00:33:56,678
Speaker 5: was talking about his friendship with John Glenn, he would say,

701
00:33:56,918 --> 00:33:59,598
Speaker 5: I thought the world of him. He's my great hero.

702
00:33:59,758 --> 00:34:01,878
Speaker 5: He's the greatest person I ever met. It's just too

703
00:34:01,918 --> 00:34:05,558
Speaker 5: bad he was a Democrat. So it was always it

704
00:34:05,598 --> 00:34:07,798
Speaker 5: was there was that one line with Ted, with Ted

705
00:34:07,838 --> 00:34:10,318
Speaker 5: Williams and has never crossed. I interviewed a very good

706
00:34:10,318 --> 00:34:12,358
Speaker 5: friend to Ted Williams who knew him in the later years.

707
00:34:13,358 --> 00:34:16,318
Speaker 5: Huge baseball fan, he was a major general in the

708
00:34:16,318 --> 00:34:16,998
Speaker 5: Marine Corps.

709
00:34:17,398 --> 00:34:18,358
Speaker 4: He said that Ted.

710
00:34:18,198 --> 00:34:19,918
Speaker 5: Always had this way of no matter who he was

711
00:34:19,918 --> 00:34:22,878
Speaker 5: talking about, no matter how much he loved someone or

712
00:34:22,878 --> 00:34:26,238
Speaker 5: respected someone, there was always one caveat, And for John

713
00:34:26,238 --> 00:34:28,438
Speaker 5: Glenn it was that the caveat was he was a Democrat.

714
00:34:28,758 --> 00:34:31,398
Speaker 5: I don't know why that was. I guess it was.

715
00:34:31,558 --> 00:34:33,998
Speaker 5: It was something that made Ted feel better about himself.

716
00:34:34,318 --> 00:34:37,238
Speaker 5: But yeah, it's it's an interesting story that he couldn't,

717
00:34:37,278 --> 00:34:39,758
Speaker 5: he couldn't bring himself to support John Glenn and in

718
00:34:39,798 --> 00:34:42,358
Speaker 5: his race for the presidency. But John Glenn got over

719
00:34:42,398 --> 00:34:43,998
Speaker 5: it and their friendship continued on.

720
00:34:44,238 --> 00:34:46,318
Speaker 3: Because briefly, I love the fact that he didn't like

721
00:34:46,318 --> 00:34:48,918
Speaker 3: his politics, but he liked him and he continued to

722
00:34:48,918 --> 00:34:50,598
Speaker 3: do so. I mean I left to see a lot

723
00:34:50,638 --> 00:34:51,758
Speaker 3: more of that happening today.

724
00:34:52,238 --> 00:34:55,198
Speaker 5: Yeah, That's that's something that I've I've been you know,

725
00:34:55,238 --> 00:34:57,318
Speaker 5: I've talked a lot about during the course of my

726
00:34:57,398 --> 00:35:01,358
Speaker 5: book tour, is that they set their politics didn't get

727
00:35:01,358 --> 00:35:03,798
Speaker 5: in the way of their friendship. And today that's probably

728
00:35:04,038 --> 00:35:08,358
Speaker 5: much harder for something to happen than it was twenty

729
00:35:08,438 --> 00:35:09,878
Speaker 5: years ago. I don't know how John Glenn and Ted

730
00:35:09,918 --> 00:35:13,838
Speaker 5: Williams would have gotten along given their politics in today's climate,

731
00:35:13,958 --> 00:35:17,518
Speaker 5: but it is a good example for probably people today

732
00:35:17,958 --> 00:35:20,438
Speaker 5: that don't let you being a Republican and then being

733
00:35:20,478 --> 00:35:24,078
Speaker 5: a Democrat or whatever ruin a friendship that's forty years

734
00:35:24,078 --> 00:35:25,158
Speaker 5: old or fifty years old.

735
00:35:25,238 --> 00:35:27,118
Speaker 3: Well, these people could think for themselves. So if they

736
00:35:27,158 --> 00:35:29,398
Speaker 3: could think for themselves, they're able to They're able to

737
00:35:29,438 --> 00:35:32,758
Speaker 3: differentiate between politics and what they thought about their friend

738
00:35:32,838 --> 00:35:34,798
Speaker 3: I absolutely believe that one hundred percent.

739
00:35:35,238 --> 00:35:38,078
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's my if you will, for lack of a

740
00:35:38,078 --> 00:35:41,678
Speaker 1: better word, biggest lesson takeaway from the book. We've talked

741
00:35:41,678 --> 00:35:45,678
Speaker 1: a lot about their differences, and especially these days political differences.

742
00:35:46,238 --> 00:35:48,518
Speaker 1: Nobody wants to reach across the aisle, even to say hello,

743
00:35:48,838 --> 00:35:51,758
Speaker 1: and to have something that went beyond just a casual acquaintance.

744
00:35:51,758 --> 00:35:55,878
Speaker 1: It's acquaintance to a strong friendship. Is it's a testament

745
00:35:56,478 --> 00:35:59,158
Speaker 1: to the integrity of these guys, and you described that

746
00:35:59,238 --> 00:36:01,198
Speaker 1: so well. I want to then go to end of

747
00:36:01,278 --> 00:36:05,438
Speaker 1: life for Ted williams Adam In two thousand and one, he.

748
00:36:05,318 --> 00:36:07,078
Speaker 2: Was recovering from an open heart surgery.

749
00:36:08,278 --> 00:36:11,198
Speaker 1: He actually only had another year to live, and from

750
00:36:11,238 --> 00:36:13,558
Speaker 1: what I understand, you know, he couldn't speak for about

751
00:36:13,718 --> 00:36:16,918
Speaker 1: two months coming out of that surgery, a lot of complications,

752
00:36:17,078 --> 00:36:20,558
Speaker 1: and when he did begin to speak again, he asked

753
00:36:20,758 --> 00:36:23,158
Speaker 1: for John Glenn. He wanted to know how John Glenn

754
00:36:23,198 --> 00:36:26,078
Speaker 1: was doing. That's that says a lot right there.

755
00:36:26,278 --> 00:36:28,278
Speaker 5: Yeah, there's that. That's one of those stories that I

756
00:36:28,358 --> 00:36:31,558
Speaker 5: uncovered that he couldn't talk. He had a trake in

757
00:36:31,558 --> 00:36:34,398
Speaker 5: his throat for a long time, and his friends were

758
00:36:34,398 --> 00:36:37,078
Speaker 5: all calling him, and John Glenn would call frequently and

759
00:36:37,118 --> 00:36:40,678
Speaker 5: one day John Glenn called and his Ted Williams son

760
00:36:40,718 --> 00:36:44,558
Speaker 5: answered and he couldn't talk. But then John, his Ted's son,

761
00:36:44,598 --> 00:36:46,038
Speaker 5: came in and said, oh, that was John Glenn on

762
00:36:46,078 --> 00:36:48,158
Speaker 5: the phone. And the first thing Ted Williams said was, oh,

763
00:36:48,278 --> 00:36:49,958
Speaker 5: how he is he? And that was the first thing

764
00:36:49,998 --> 00:36:52,558
Speaker 5: he had said in months. So that was sort of

765
00:36:52,918 --> 00:36:55,838
Speaker 5: a nice heartfelt moment in their relationship. And that was

766
00:36:56,118 --> 00:36:58,878
Speaker 5: another you know, when Ted was recovering from that, he

767
00:36:58,918 --> 00:37:02,758
Speaker 5: had like a twelve hour heart surgery, John Glenn visited

768
00:37:02,798 --> 00:37:04,798
Speaker 5: him in the hospital. He's visit him at his home

769
00:37:04,838 --> 00:37:09,558
Speaker 5: in Florida. It was something. I think there was something too,

770
00:37:09,718 --> 00:37:11,878
Speaker 5: not just the fact that they were friends and that

771
00:37:11,918 --> 00:37:15,118
Speaker 5: they had served together in the war. You know they

772
00:37:15,158 --> 00:37:17,358
Speaker 5: were in Ted was eighty three, John Glenn, I think

773
00:37:17,438 --> 00:37:19,598
Speaker 5: was seventy nine. Around this time, I think they had

774
00:37:19,638 --> 00:37:21,718
Speaker 5: this feeling of you know, they had made it, they

775
00:37:21,718 --> 00:37:24,878
Speaker 5: had survived, forget the war, they survived life in a way.

776
00:37:25,558 --> 00:37:27,598
Speaker 5: And when you get to be that age, I would

777
00:37:27,598 --> 00:37:29,558
Speaker 5: imagine you look around and see where all your friends are,

778
00:37:29,918 --> 00:37:31,798
Speaker 5: and a lot of them are probably gone. And for

779
00:37:31,918 --> 00:37:34,598
Speaker 5: Ted Williams, his friend John Glenn was still there and

780
00:37:34,678 --> 00:37:36,598
Speaker 5: John Glenn, his friend Ted Williams was still there and

781
00:37:36,638 --> 00:37:38,638
Speaker 5: it was something that they wanted to keep going. It

782
00:37:38,718 --> 00:37:40,638
Speaker 5: kept their friendship going meant a lot to them, and

783
00:37:40,918 --> 00:37:42,478
Speaker 5: I think that's one of the reasons you see John

784
00:37:42,518 --> 00:37:45,878
Speaker 5: Glenn visiting Ted Williams so frequently, Ted Williams calling John

785
00:37:45,918 --> 00:37:48,558
Speaker 5: Glenn to talk to him. It's a great story about

786
00:37:48,598 --> 00:37:50,678
Speaker 5: how long lasting some friendships can be.

787
00:37:51,078 --> 00:37:52,638
Speaker 2: Well, it's an incredible read.

788
00:37:52,958 --> 00:37:56,318
Speaker 1: I definitely can recommend it to anyone as a gift,

789
00:37:56,398 --> 00:38:00,678
Speaker 1: especially but just to buy for yourself. It's wing Men,

790
00:38:01,118 --> 00:38:05,878
Speaker 1: the unlikely, unusual, unbreakable friendship between John Glenn and Ted Williams,

791
00:38:06,038 --> 00:38:09,758
Speaker 1: two of the most really iconic American heroes and I

792
00:38:09,798 --> 00:38:13,598
Speaker 1: don't use that word lightly at all from the twentieth century,

793
00:38:13,878 --> 00:38:17,198
Speaker 1: and really about not just their own lives, but the

794
00:38:17,238 --> 00:38:20,038
Speaker 1: intersection and the friendship, especially between the two of those.

795
00:38:20,518 --> 00:38:22,118
Speaker 3: It was just one more question before you go, just

796
00:38:22,198 --> 00:38:24,478
Speaker 3: this is off the cuff. Is there any mentioned of

797
00:38:24,518 --> 00:38:27,678
Speaker 3: Bob Kennedy Senior in this book at all? Executive manager, etc.

798
00:38:28,038 --> 00:38:28,918
Speaker 4: The baseball part.

799
00:38:29,078 --> 00:38:30,198
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

800
00:38:30,318 --> 00:38:31,118
Speaker 4: Yeah.

801
00:38:31,278 --> 00:38:34,238
Speaker 5: Bob Kennedy was recalled to the Marine Corps at the

802
00:38:34,278 --> 00:38:37,958
Speaker 5: same time as Ted Williams, right. He was went through

803
00:38:37,998 --> 00:38:41,358
Speaker 5: a lot of the retraining that was required of Ted

804
00:38:41,358 --> 00:38:44,838
Speaker 5: Williams to go to serve in Korea, but he had

805
00:38:44,918 --> 00:38:47,958
Speaker 5: like six dependants at the time, so before he was

806
00:38:48,038 --> 00:38:52,158
Speaker 5: sent to duty, he was relieved of service and sent

807
00:38:52,278 --> 00:38:55,318
Speaker 5: back home. But he did retraining with Ted Williams. I

808
00:38:55,318 --> 00:38:59,198
Speaker 5: think he flew some practice missions over. It was probably

809
00:38:59,238 --> 00:39:01,678
Speaker 5: at Cherry Point in North Carolina. They were good friends

810
00:39:01,678 --> 00:39:04,078
Speaker 5: and they spent some time together, So yeah, he was.

811
00:39:04,158 --> 00:39:08,038
Speaker 5: There were very few people active ballplayers recalled in Korea,

812
00:39:08,478 --> 00:39:11,318
Speaker 5: but that was one of them. Jerry Coleman was another

813
00:39:11,358 --> 00:39:16,158
Speaker 5: who played obviously the Yankees and the Padres. Announcer Lloyd Merriman,

814
00:39:16,198 --> 00:39:19,758
Speaker 5: who was a tremendous college football player who ended up

815
00:39:19,758 --> 00:39:22,678
Speaker 5: playing for the Reds for a few years, also served

816
00:39:22,678 --> 00:39:24,998
Speaker 5: in Korea, actually in the squadron next door to Ted

817
00:39:25,038 --> 00:39:27,398
Speaker 5: Williams and John Glenn so he's mentioned in the book.

818
00:39:28,118 --> 00:39:30,718
Speaker 5: So yeah, there were a few guys. Bob Kennedy was

819
00:39:30,758 --> 00:39:32,798
Speaker 5: one of them, and he's mentioned in the book briefly.

820
00:39:32,958 --> 00:39:35,638
Speaker 5: I actually spoke about the book at Cooperstown in May

821
00:39:36,238 --> 00:39:40,158
Speaker 5: at their annual Baseball Book Symposium, and I gave a presentation.

822
00:39:40,398 --> 00:39:42,638
Speaker 5: It was partly on this book in Ted Williams, but

823
00:39:42,878 --> 00:39:45,478
Speaker 5: I did a little presentation on all four of those guys,

824
00:39:45,678 --> 00:39:46,958
Speaker 5: and Bob Kennedy was one of them.

825
00:39:47,038 --> 00:39:50,598
Speaker 3: Mister Kennedy was running the Giants minor league system when

826
00:39:50,638 --> 00:39:52,918
Speaker 3: I began with the Angels, and I remember sitting next

827
00:39:52,958 --> 00:39:55,118
Speaker 3: to him at Genaudry Park and he was telling me

828
00:39:55,158 --> 00:39:57,038
Speaker 3: about him and Ted. He was telling me about all

829
00:39:57,078 --> 00:40:00,478
Speaker 3: that stuff is I knew Terry and his other son too.

830
00:40:00,558 --> 00:40:02,678
Speaker 3: And the big thing about mister Kennedy back there, he

831
00:40:02,718 --> 00:40:05,278
Speaker 3: hated the fact that there's too many strikeouts going on.

832
00:40:05,718 --> 00:40:08,318
Speaker 3: His big movement that year with the minor league system

833
00:40:08,438 --> 00:40:10,798
Speaker 3: was to cut down a number of strikeouts. And he

834
00:40:10,878 --> 00:40:12,878
Speaker 3: convinced me so much that I developed my b hack

835
00:40:12,958 --> 00:40:17,078
Speaker 3: that Tommy's very much aware of. Anyway, mister Kennedy was

836
00:40:17,118 --> 00:40:19,278
Speaker 3: he was another larger than life dude man. I mean,

837
00:40:19,318 --> 00:40:21,038
Speaker 3: he he had a lot of He had a lot

838
00:40:21,078 --> 00:40:24,678
Speaker 3: of jack back then in baseball, and when you're around

839
00:40:24,678 --> 00:40:27,478
Speaker 3: mister Kennedy, you knew you were around a dude man,

840
00:40:27,558 --> 00:40:29,998
Speaker 3: and say, well, I always had a lot of respect

841
00:40:29,998 --> 00:40:31,638
Speaker 3: for him, and I just wanted to bring that up

842
00:40:31,638 --> 00:40:34,678
Speaker 3: because he had talked about Ted Offfen to me whenever

843
00:40:34,678 --> 00:40:36,918
Speaker 3: I sat with him talking about what was going on

844
00:40:36,998 --> 00:40:37,758
Speaker 3: the field that day.

845
00:40:38,238 --> 00:40:40,078
Speaker 2: Adam, you'd done a great job with this book.

846
00:40:40,118 --> 00:40:43,638
Speaker 1: It's a fascinating read, well researched, well written.

847
00:40:43,718 --> 00:40:44,598
Speaker 2: Congratulations.

848
00:40:44,638 --> 00:40:46,638
Speaker 1: I wish you all the best of luck, and we

849
00:40:46,758 --> 00:40:48,718
Speaker 1: certainly have enjoyed you. Stop and buy the Book of

850
00:40:48,798 --> 00:40:49,518
Speaker 1: Joe podcast.

851
00:40:49,918 --> 00:40:51,798
Speaker 4: Thank you so much for having me. I really appreciate it.

852
00:40:51,998 --> 00:40:53,958
Speaker 1: We're going to wrap it up with some closing thoughts

853
00:40:54,398 --> 00:41:09,638
Speaker 1: right after this, Joe. I really enjoyed that conversation, and

854
00:41:09,718 --> 00:41:11,558
Speaker 1: I think you just get a little bit of an

855
00:41:11,558 --> 00:41:15,118
Speaker 1: insight of how much is in the book, and again,

856
00:41:15,478 --> 00:41:16,918
Speaker 1: the details of it.

857
00:41:16,918 --> 00:41:19,118
Speaker 2: It is like reading the script of Top Gun.

858
00:41:19,198 --> 00:41:23,198
Speaker 1: The details, especially these missions that John Gled and Ted

859
00:41:23,238 --> 00:41:25,918
Speaker 1: Williams ran, are just amazing the way he brings it

860
00:41:25,958 --> 00:41:26,318
Speaker 1: to life.

861
00:41:26,478 --> 00:41:27,838
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed the conversation.

862
00:41:28,518 --> 00:41:32,518
Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's just it's just tumbling to hear what

863
00:41:32,558 --> 00:41:36,198
Speaker 3: these men did. And again I mentioned it during the podcast,

864
00:41:37,238 --> 00:41:39,518
Speaker 3: for those that did serve and for those of us

865
00:41:39,558 --> 00:41:42,958
Speaker 3: that did not. I mean, I'm very in a sense jealous.

866
00:41:42,998 --> 00:41:46,078
Speaker 3: I really what they did and how they did it,

867
00:41:46,118 --> 00:41:50,358
Speaker 3: and how they set an example for so many other people.

868
00:41:50,438 --> 00:41:54,238
Speaker 3: I think is spectacular. So yeah, I'm gonna have to

869
00:41:54,238 --> 00:41:56,318
Speaker 3: pick this up. I need to get more background with that.

870
00:41:56,398 --> 00:41:58,398
Speaker 3: I need to hear more of the stories. But that's

871
00:41:58,478 --> 00:42:03,198
Speaker 3: immediately what I My impression is here humbled by the

872
00:42:03,238 --> 00:42:05,918
Speaker 3: fact that these guys did for all of us back

873
00:42:05,918 --> 00:42:07,878
Speaker 3: in the nineteen fifties and before.

874
00:42:08,598 --> 00:42:10,238
Speaker 2: That's a great word to describe that.

875
00:42:10,278 --> 00:42:12,598
Speaker 1: Hey, Joe, I've got a question for you about managing

876
00:42:12,638 --> 00:42:16,358
Speaker 1: in Ted Williams, because obviously Ted Williams, you know, his

877
00:42:16,478 --> 00:42:18,358
Speaker 1: goal was to walk down the street and people would

878
00:42:18,398 --> 00:42:21,238
Speaker 1: say that's the greatest hitter who ever lived, and he

879
00:42:21,358 --> 00:42:24,038
Speaker 1: may be. I mean, he's certainly in the conversation, right,

880
00:42:24,118 --> 00:42:27,238
Speaker 1: so a huge success there as a manager.

881
00:42:27,398 --> 00:42:28,878
Speaker 2: Kind of a mixed bag now.

882
00:42:29,278 --> 00:42:31,518
Speaker 1: I think he's actually a little bit underrated in his

883
00:42:31,598 --> 00:42:33,958
Speaker 1: time as a manager. But it was set about Ted Williams,

884
00:42:33,998 --> 00:42:36,398
Speaker 1: and it's set about a lot of great players who

885
00:42:36,518 --> 00:42:39,638
Speaker 1: become managers or in other sports, coaches that they have

886
00:42:39,678 --> 00:42:43,318
Speaker 1: a hard time relating to the everyday player, that they

887
00:42:43,358 --> 00:42:46,238
Speaker 1: can't play the game at the same level. I'm not

888
00:42:46,278 --> 00:42:49,118
Speaker 1: sure if you ever came across people who worked with

889
00:42:49,158 --> 00:42:51,958
Speaker 1: Ted Williams or remembered him as a manager, but I

890
00:42:51,998 --> 00:42:54,438
Speaker 1: do you buy into this theory that it's harder for

891
00:42:54,518 --> 00:42:57,118
Speaker 1: the elite player to.

892
00:42:57,158 --> 00:42:59,238
Speaker 2: Become a successful manager.

893
00:42:59,558 --> 00:43:02,318
Speaker 3: Well, I mean I did running the people that played

894
00:43:02,318 --> 00:43:05,358
Speaker 3: for Ted and a coach to work with him when

895
00:43:05,438 --> 00:43:07,158
Speaker 3: Joe Coleman was one of them, and Joe kind of

896
00:43:07,518 --> 00:43:10,038
Speaker 3: related that story to me if he loved them, he

897
00:43:10,078 --> 00:43:12,358
Speaker 3: thought he was great. He had so many great little insights,

898
00:43:12,358 --> 00:43:15,318
Speaker 3: but it's hard for anybody else to live up to

899
00:43:15,358 --> 00:43:18,878
Speaker 3: the standards that he created for himself as a player.

900
00:43:19,478 --> 00:43:23,038
Speaker 3: So that was that was not only Junior. Some other

901
00:43:23,078 --> 00:43:25,798
Speaker 3: guys told me the same thing about working for him,

902
00:43:25,798 --> 00:43:29,478
Speaker 3: and beyond that on a personal level, when you sometimes

903
00:43:29,518 --> 00:43:31,878
Speaker 3: when you work with coaches that were such good players,

904
00:43:33,318 --> 00:43:35,878
Speaker 3: they're not as good at coaches as they were players. Again,

905
00:43:37,158 --> 00:43:39,198
Speaker 3: I think a lot of times when a lot of

906
00:43:39,238 --> 00:43:41,798
Speaker 3: times a really great player, there's things that were indigenous

907
00:43:41,878 --> 00:43:44,798
Speaker 3: or unique to himself, things that just his body worked

908
00:43:44,838 --> 00:43:47,518
Speaker 3: in a certain way, and that's how we did it.

909
00:43:48,118 --> 00:43:50,318
Speaker 3: And when he came down to actually breaking him out

910
00:43:50,358 --> 00:43:53,278
Speaker 3: teaching it to somebody more pedestrian, they're unable to do

911
00:43:53,318 --> 00:43:55,118
Speaker 3: that because I only try to tell them the way

912
00:43:55,158 --> 00:43:57,518
Speaker 3: that they did it, and they don't have that ability

913
00:43:57,558 --> 00:44:00,398
Speaker 3: to say it. In other words, to me, the true

914
00:44:00,478 --> 00:44:03,078
Speaker 3: essence of coaching is the ability to say the same

915
00:44:03,078 --> 00:44:05,798
Speaker 3: thing to two or three four different guys in other words,

916
00:44:06,278 --> 00:44:08,278
Speaker 3: whatever those set of words are that makes sense to

917
00:44:08,278 --> 00:44:11,078
Speaker 3: Tom or to me, or to Vans or whomever, or

918
00:44:11,198 --> 00:44:14,918
Speaker 3: today Adam. I mean, it's so important. I don't know

919
00:44:14,998 --> 00:44:18,078
Speaker 3: that people focus on that enough. I was my big

920
00:44:18,118 --> 00:44:21,038
Speaker 3: thing as a young coach. I wanted to make my

921
00:44:21,678 --> 00:44:24,598
Speaker 3: staff understand that, be prepared to say the same thing,

922
00:44:24,638 --> 00:44:26,918
Speaker 3: in other words, to make sure that you do resonate

923
00:44:26,958 --> 00:44:31,278
Speaker 3: with everybody. They're really great players, to me, are not

924
00:44:31,318 --> 00:44:33,278
Speaker 3: necessarily able to do that because they never had it.

925
00:44:33,318 --> 00:44:35,358
Speaker 3: They never had to break it down for themselves. They

926
00:44:35,398 --> 00:44:37,798
Speaker 3: just did it, which is beautiful. That's the way to live, man,

927
00:44:37,838 --> 00:44:40,998
Speaker 3: when you're able to just being consciously competent. Here it is,

928
00:44:41,318 --> 00:44:43,718
Speaker 3: here's the pitch. I'm seeing the ball. I hit the

929
00:44:43,758 --> 00:44:46,118
Speaker 3: ball pitcher, I see the catcher's mitt. I throw it

930
00:44:46,198 --> 00:44:49,638
Speaker 3: right through the catcher's chest. You have this unconsciously competent moment.

931
00:44:49,718 --> 00:44:52,678
Speaker 3: We just do things because it's the moment. And that's

932
00:44:52,718 --> 00:44:56,638
Speaker 3: what these guys do. And that's the beauty of being great,

933
00:44:57,158 --> 00:45:00,278
Speaker 3: and that's the you know, but that's the beauty of

934
00:45:00,318 --> 00:45:02,118
Speaker 3: not being so great in the sense that you become

935
00:45:02,118 --> 00:45:03,918
Speaker 3: a better teacher because you have no other choice.

936
00:45:03,958 --> 00:45:07,718
Speaker 1: Yeah, those are all great points, Joe, because I think

937
00:45:07,798 --> 00:45:09,758
Speaker 1: the key and success and you did it so well

938
00:45:09,758 --> 00:45:14,558
Speaker 1: as a manager is connecting with people, all kinds of people,

939
00:45:14,678 --> 00:45:17,838
Speaker 1: no matter their skill level, their personality, their backgrounds.

940
00:45:18,598 --> 00:45:21,278
Speaker 2: You have to find different ways to reach people.

941
00:45:21,438 --> 00:45:24,518
Speaker 1: And I remember Joe Torre telling me years ago that

942
00:45:24,678 --> 00:45:27,678
Speaker 1: sometimes when a player finally the light goes on and

943
00:45:27,718 --> 00:45:30,358
Speaker 1: he turns the corner, it's not because that coaching staff

944
00:45:30,398 --> 00:45:33,478
Speaker 1: happened to tell him something he never heard before. It's

945
00:45:33,518 --> 00:45:36,558
Speaker 1: that maybe they presented it in a way that connected

946
00:45:36,678 --> 00:45:40,118
Speaker 1: with that individual. And I think for some with Ted Williams,

947
00:45:40,158 --> 00:45:43,118
Speaker 1: based on what I've read and heard from some other people,

948
00:45:43,598 --> 00:45:47,118
Speaker 1: he did some things that were extremely impressive as a manager.

949
00:45:47,198 --> 00:45:50,518
Speaker 1: For instance, he completely changed the career of Frank Coward

950
00:45:50,558 --> 00:45:53,118
Speaker 1: as a hitter. He just turned him into a home

951
00:45:53,198 --> 00:45:56,478
Speaker 1: run champion and All Star when he was not that

952
00:45:56,598 --> 00:45:58,718
Speaker 1: kind of player before Ted got his hands on him.

953
00:45:58,718 --> 00:46:02,758
Speaker 1: Someone like Mike Epstein turned him into a much better player.

954
00:46:02,798 --> 00:46:04,918
Speaker 1: But I'm not sure that Ted Williams, first of all,

955
00:46:05,358 --> 00:46:08,158
Speaker 1: uh managed up well in terms.

956
00:46:07,958 --> 00:46:09,718
Speaker 2: Of the owners that he dealt with.

957
00:46:10,398 --> 00:46:12,958
Speaker 1: He's not the kind of guy who's gonna take advice,

958
00:46:13,038 --> 00:46:17,118
Speaker 1: I don't think. And I'm not sure how he could

959
00:46:17,118 --> 00:46:20,918
Speaker 1: relate to pictures. I mean, Ted Williams lived to hit.

960
00:46:21,118 --> 00:46:22,878
Speaker 1: I'm not sure he lived to play defense, or to

961
00:46:22,918 --> 00:46:27,478
Speaker 1: read a bases or to appease fans. His life was

962
00:46:27,518 --> 00:46:29,078
Speaker 1: to be the best hitter in the world, and he

963
00:46:29,118 --> 00:46:30,998
Speaker 1: poured every ounce of energy into that.

964
00:46:31,958 --> 00:46:34,278
Speaker 2: So I'm not sure that he was relatable to pictures.

965
00:46:34,318 --> 00:46:37,038
Speaker 1: And you know how a big part of managing is

966
00:46:37,478 --> 00:46:40,918
Speaker 1: the pitching side of it, so you know, you know

967
00:46:40,998 --> 00:46:43,838
Speaker 1: better than anybody, Joe. It sort of takes a renaissance

968
00:46:43,918 --> 00:46:47,798
Speaker 1: person to to really be successful as a manager. And

969
00:46:47,838 --> 00:46:50,558
Speaker 1: Ted was so great at hitting, you know, I'm not

970
00:46:50,598 --> 00:46:54,278
Speaker 1: sure those other managerial skills were in his wheelhouse.

971
00:46:54,678 --> 00:46:57,078
Speaker 3: Yeah they were. They were just pretty much specialist in

972
00:46:57,118 --> 00:47:00,438
Speaker 3: one area. They didn't really have that. I've often talked

973
00:47:00,438 --> 00:47:03,078
Speaker 3: about the liberal liberal arts component. They didn't have to.

974
00:47:03,638 --> 00:47:05,358
Speaker 3: I mean, you hit that good, you don't have to.

975
00:47:05,558 --> 00:47:07,878
Speaker 3: You're that good of a hitter. When you get a

976
00:47:07,918 --> 00:47:09,558
Speaker 3: guy that's that good of a hitter, I think of

977
00:47:09,598 --> 00:47:11,358
Speaker 3: Aaron judge right out of the shoot. I'm thinking about

978
00:47:11,398 --> 00:47:13,838
Speaker 3: Showy too. But when you got a really good hitter

979
00:47:13,918 --> 00:47:17,198
Speaker 3: that's also a good everything else, good base, when a

980
00:47:17,278 --> 00:47:19,998
Speaker 3: good out for the good thrower, you know, just as

981
00:47:19,998 --> 00:47:22,438
Speaker 3: the greatestinct for the game makes good decisions for the

982
00:47:22,478 --> 00:47:25,958
Speaker 3: right base, all these different things, then you really got something.

983
00:47:25,998 --> 00:47:28,758
Speaker 3: But there's a lot of times that there has been

984
00:47:28,798 --> 00:47:30,838
Speaker 3: that moment because a good hitter is going to get paid.

985
00:47:30,838 --> 00:47:33,038
Speaker 3: A good hitter, a team's going to find a place

986
00:47:33,078 --> 00:47:35,758
Speaker 3: to play a good hitter. You've seen people at second base.

987
00:47:35,798 --> 00:47:38,238
Speaker 3: I've had second base a second basement dan Ugla a

988
00:47:38,278 --> 00:47:40,158
Speaker 3: couple of years ago as an example with the Brads,

989
00:47:40,158 --> 00:47:42,998
Speaker 3: You're going to find a place to play somebody that's

990
00:47:42,998 --> 00:47:46,558
Speaker 3: got that kind of hitting ability and power independent of

991
00:47:46,598 --> 00:47:50,598
Speaker 3: the rest of his game. So, yeah, that's it happens

992
00:47:50,638 --> 00:47:53,558
Speaker 3: with managers. He became a manager just based on who

993
00:47:53,598 --> 00:47:56,358
Speaker 3: he had meant and then maybe he did have the

994
00:47:56,398 --> 00:47:58,318
Speaker 3: ability to help a couple of guys. Maybe what he

995
00:47:58,398 --> 00:48:01,758
Speaker 3: said resonated to Frank as an example of Epstein as

996
00:48:01,798 --> 00:48:06,638
Speaker 3: an example, But it doesn't necessarily touch everybody because there's

997
00:48:06,678 --> 00:48:08,998
Speaker 3: only one way. And listen, I'm not going to point

998
00:48:09,038 --> 00:48:10,918
Speaker 3: anybody out. But I've been around other guys that id

999
00:48:10,918 --> 00:48:13,878
Speaker 3: just one method of teaching. Like I said, they said

1000
00:48:13,918 --> 00:48:17,118
Speaker 3: it one way and I'm listening to And the last

1001
00:48:17,118 --> 00:48:20,078
Speaker 3: point that resonated for me as a young hitter in

1002
00:48:20,118 --> 00:48:23,998
Speaker 3: the minor leagues. I mean, I my most stupid. He said,

1003
00:48:24,038 --> 00:48:27,358
Speaker 3: tell me, get your backside longer, longer. And I went,

1004
00:48:27,518 --> 00:48:30,398
Speaker 3: and the hell is he talking about? Get your backside?

1005
00:48:30,438 --> 00:48:32,438
Speaker 3: I didn't know what he meant for like two years.

1006
00:48:32,478 --> 00:48:34,158
Speaker 3: I had him for two years and finally figured out

1007
00:48:34,158 --> 00:48:36,918
Speaker 3: what he's talking about. How to rotate return on the

1008
00:48:36,958 --> 00:48:38,718
Speaker 3: ball of my back foot, you know, all that kind

1009
00:48:38,758 --> 00:48:41,598
Speaker 3: of stuff. But it was like his his his way

1010
00:48:41,638 --> 00:48:43,518
Speaker 3: of saying it was get your backside longer. I had

1011
00:48:43,518 --> 00:48:46,158
Speaker 3: no idea what he was talking about, which meant I

1012
00:48:46,158 --> 00:48:48,318
Speaker 3: did not get it for a couple of years. And

1013
00:48:48,318 --> 00:48:51,318
Speaker 3: then finally the light bulb goes on and then ah,

1014
00:48:51,558 --> 00:48:54,518
Speaker 3: that's what he meant. That's what happens. That's what happens.

1015
00:48:54,558 --> 00:48:57,278
Speaker 3: You have these the light bulb moments. That's what he meant.

1016
00:48:57,438 --> 00:49:00,038
Speaker 3: All of a sudden it makes sense. And that's last

1017
00:49:00,038 --> 00:49:04,078
Speaker 3: point again, redundancy. That's that's the essence of coaching is

1018
00:49:04,118 --> 00:49:05,438
Speaker 3: to be be redundant.

1019
00:49:05,438 --> 00:49:06,478
Speaker 2: Well, greatness.

1020
00:49:06,678 --> 00:49:10,358
Speaker 1: You know that word is used probably too much, but

1021
00:49:10,598 --> 00:49:12,958
Speaker 1: I think this case of these two men, it certainly

1022
00:49:12,998 --> 00:49:16,598
Speaker 1: does apply. And one last thing for me, Joe, and

1023
00:49:16,638 --> 00:49:19,878
Speaker 1: I'll go back to a column that Ted Williams actually

1024
00:49:19,918 --> 00:49:22,438
Speaker 1: wrote for the Boston Globe back in nineteen sixty two.

1025
00:49:22,598 --> 00:49:24,358
Speaker 1: I mean Ted didn't do that a lot in terms

1026
00:49:24,398 --> 00:49:26,598
Speaker 1: of putting his name on something. He did do a

1027
00:49:26,638 --> 00:49:28,758
Speaker 1: lot of interviews. I'm talking about a written piece he

1028
00:49:28,798 --> 00:49:30,478
Speaker 1: wrote for the Globe. And he did it when the

1029
00:49:30,518 --> 00:49:33,678
Speaker 1: Globe asked him to write something about his friend John Glenn,

1030
00:49:33,718 --> 00:49:37,038
Speaker 1: because Glenn had just finished orbiting the Earth, the first

1031
00:49:37,038 --> 00:49:40,318
Speaker 1: manner to orbit around the Earth on the friendship seven.

1032
00:49:40,678 --> 00:49:44,198
Speaker 1: And here is what Williams wrote. And again it goes

1033
00:49:44,238 --> 00:49:47,638
Speaker 1: back to these guys being thrown together essentially by happenstance

1034
00:49:47,718 --> 00:49:50,718
Speaker 1: in Korea, and the connection instantly made. What did they

1035
00:49:50,718 --> 00:49:54,278
Speaker 1: have in common? Here's what Ted Williams wrote. Glenn was

1036
00:49:54,318 --> 00:49:58,198
Speaker 1: a man destined for something great. It was an intuitive

1037
00:49:58,318 --> 00:50:03,398
Speaker 1: feeling I had. John always had exceptional self control and

1038
00:50:03,558 --> 00:50:06,598
Speaker 1: was one one of the calmest men I have ever met,

1039
00:50:06,998 --> 00:50:09,398
Speaker 1: no matter how perilous the situation.

1040
00:50:10,438 --> 00:50:12,958
Speaker 3: Well, I mean that says it on I would almost

1041
00:50:13,358 --> 00:50:16,758
Speaker 3: bet or believe that Williams kind of either felt that

1042
00:50:16,798 --> 00:50:18,798
Speaker 3: way about himself or wanted to be more like that.

1043
00:50:18,958 --> 00:50:20,878
Speaker 3: I mean that's and then he saw him in an

1044
00:50:21,038 --> 00:50:24,918
Speaker 3: absolute gosh, I mean, you know, life and dead situation.

1045
00:50:25,038 --> 00:50:27,278
Speaker 3: I mean that they're not talking about like being nervous

1046
00:50:27,318 --> 00:50:30,718
Speaker 3: about giving a speech before the assembly. This is like

1047
00:50:30,918 --> 00:50:33,878
Speaker 3: dropping bombs on an enemy territory. Then they used the

1048
00:50:33,878 --> 00:50:37,238
Speaker 3: word calm in that moment just speaks to his focus,

1049
00:50:37,398 --> 00:50:40,358
Speaker 3: his ability to see things, sell things down, all the

1050
00:50:40,398 --> 00:50:43,438
Speaker 3: different things a great hitter wants to be or is.

1051
00:50:43,918 --> 00:50:47,278
Speaker 3: So I'm certain that he saw a lot in John

1052
00:50:47,318 --> 00:50:49,478
Speaker 3: Glenn that he wanted to believe was that he could

1053
00:50:49,518 --> 00:50:52,598
Speaker 3: recognize within himself. And that's what that article sounds like

1054
00:50:52,638 --> 00:50:52,838
Speaker 3: to me.

1055
00:50:53,238 --> 00:50:56,918
Speaker 1: Well, this has been a lot of fun, Joe and boy,

1056
00:50:56,958 --> 00:50:58,838
Speaker 1: I don't know how you do it, but you usually

1057
00:50:58,878 --> 00:51:02,278
Speaker 1: always have a great capper to our talks here, and

1058
00:51:03,118 --> 00:51:04,638
Speaker 1: but I can't wait to see what we've got for

1059
00:51:04,718 --> 00:51:07,278
Speaker 1: this one after we just went through John Glenn and

1060
00:51:07,358 --> 00:51:08,158
Speaker 1: Ted Williams.

1061
00:51:08,518 --> 00:51:12,358
Speaker 3: Well, well, I did go with mister Glenn. I mean,

1062
00:51:12,958 --> 00:51:14,718
Speaker 3: of course, knowing the book, and I thought it was

1063
00:51:14,758 --> 00:51:18,038
Speaker 3: appropriate to include him, and it's it almost is like,

1064
00:51:18,118 --> 00:51:21,838
Speaker 3: you know, it's when you talk about people that rotat

1065
00:51:21,878 --> 00:51:24,638
Speaker 3: in that great world, a world of greatness. I mean,

1066
00:51:25,118 --> 00:51:27,398
Speaker 3: he said, we are fulfilled and we are involved with

1067
00:51:27,438 --> 00:51:30,558
Speaker 3: something bigger than ourselves. And I mean I thought about

1068
00:51:30,558 --> 00:51:32,558
Speaker 3: show hey, like we're talking about a baseball since he

1069
00:51:32,638 --> 00:51:35,438
Speaker 3: was kind of saying that the other day regarding what

1070
00:51:35,478 --> 00:51:38,078
Speaker 3: he did in regards to his signing, and John Glenn

1071
00:51:38,118 --> 00:51:42,558
Speaker 3: did it in a more worldly sense during during a

1072
00:51:42,598 --> 00:51:45,558
Speaker 3: war he was he he did everything that he did

1073
00:51:46,398 --> 00:51:48,518
Speaker 3: to be involved in something bigger than he was, and

1074
00:51:48,558 --> 00:51:51,318
Speaker 3: he thought sense of duty, a call to duty, this

1075
00:51:51,438 --> 00:51:53,158
Speaker 3: is important. I got to get this done. If I

1076
00:51:53,158 --> 00:51:55,518
Speaker 3: don't do this, nobody else will. He had probably had

1077
00:51:55,558 --> 00:51:58,718
Speaker 3: all these different thoughts when he led into the battle,

1078
00:51:58,758 --> 00:52:01,838
Speaker 3: and then the fact that he circled back to make sure,

1079
00:52:02,438 --> 00:52:04,558
Speaker 3: my god, don't you start high telling at that point,

1080
00:52:04,558 --> 00:52:06,118
Speaker 3: I don't even want to go back where I've just been.

1081
00:52:07,838 --> 00:52:11,238
Speaker 3: So that's we're fulfilled. We're fulfilled when we are involved

1082
00:52:11,238 --> 00:52:14,198
Speaker 3: with something bigger than ourselves. And then I wanted to

1083
00:52:14,318 --> 00:52:17,478
Speaker 3: conclude it with this just based on something that I

1084
00:52:17,518 --> 00:52:19,918
Speaker 3: heard Adam say in another interview. We talked about things

1085
00:52:19,958 --> 00:52:21,718
Speaker 3: are different back then. We hear that all the time.

1086
00:52:22,918 --> 00:52:24,998
Speaker 3: Everything we talked about You and I talked about it,

1087
00:52:25,078 --> 00:52:27,318
Speaker 3: talk about it in baseball, talk about it a lot.

1088
00:52:27,358 --> 00:52:30,478
Speaker 3: And I had a teacher in high school, mister Julie Franzosa,

1089
00:52:31,078 --> 00:52:33,958
Speaker 3: and Julie was he was kind of funny dude. He said,

1090
00:52:33,998 --> 00:52:36,198
Speaker 3: at third base and sitting on the corner of third

1091
00:52:36,238 --> 00:52:39,038
Speaker 3: base and my uncle Carly and David my mom were working.

1092
00:52:40,478 --> 00:52:42,718
Speaker 3: Julie was hit there one day. I guess he said

1093
00:52:42,718 --> 00:52:45,078
Speaker 3: something to the effect that mister Lemanatti told me about it.

1094
00:52:45,078 --> 00:52:47,198
Speaker 3: But things are better when they were worse.

1095
00:52:48,198 --> 00:52:50,478
Speaker 2: That's a yogism, right.

1096
00:52:50,518 --> 00:52:53,518
Speaker 3: I carry that with me and I passed along to

1097
00:52:53,518 --> 00:52:56,638
Speaker 3: to the right person who might appreciate it. But you know,

1098
00:52:57,638 --> 00:52:59,558
Speaker 3: you talk about what's going on now, and you talk

1099
00:52:59,598 --> 00:53:03,678
Speaker 3: about what had happened, and to a certain extent, maybe

1100
00:53:03,678 --> 00:53:05,678
Speaker 3: things were better when they were worse. I know, listen

1101
00:53:05,758 --> 00:53:07,638
Speaker 3: tech wise, and there's a lot of parts about our

1102
00:53:07,678 --> 00:53:11,838
Speaker 3: standard of living that are better and our whether it's

1103
00:53:11,878 --> 00:53:13,478
Speaker 3: just right down to the fact that I could do this,

1104
00:53:13,718 --> 00:53:16,758
Speaker 3: We could do this. Zoomer and an Ipata watched a

1105
00:53:16,758 --> 00:53:19,878
Speaker 3: really nice color TV last night. I can fly whatever

1106
00:53:19,878 --> 00:53:21,438
Speaker 3: I want to fly, but there's so many things we

1107
00:53:21,438 --> 00:53:23,918
Speaker 3: could do that are more convenient. But when it just

1108
00:53:23,958 --> 00:53:27,518
Speaker 3: comes to interacting with one another instability. Maybe things were

1109
00:53:27,518 --> 00:53:30,718
Speaker 3: better when they were worse. I don't know, but that's

1110
00:53:30,718 --> 00:53:33,118
Speaker 3: something from Julie Franzosi, so I thought it kind of

1111
00:53:33,638 --> 00:53:36,198
Speaker 3: fit into the genre of what we're talking about right now,

1112
00:53:36,638 --> 00:53:39,758
Speaker 3: historically some great figures, and I just wanted to throw

1113
00:53:39,798 --> 00:53:40,478
Speaker 3: that out there too.

1114
00:53:40,678 --> 00:53:43,998
Speaker 1: Hey, Joe, no offense to Julie Franzoso, but I have

1115
00:53:44,078 --> 00:53:46,398
Speaker 1: to have you go back to that quote from John Glenn.

1116
00:53:46,718 --> 00:53:50,358
Speaker 2: I love that so much that I want to hear

1117
00:53:50,398 --> 00:53:50,798
Speaker 2: it again.

1118
00:53:50,998 --> 00:53:54,118
Speaker 3: We are more fulfilled when we're involved with something bigger

1119
00:53:54,158 --> 00:53:55,838
Speaker 3: than ourselves, John Glenn.

1120
00:53:55,958 --> 00:53:56,438
Speaker 2: I mean that.

1121
00:53:57,078 --> 00:53:59,198
Speaker 1: I mean nothing true or has been spoken. I think,

1122
00:53:59,318 --> 00:54:03,118
Speaker 1: especially in today's age, Joe, where you've seen it, and

1123
00:54:03,198 --> 00:54:05,558
Speaker 1: not just with play but people in general. There's so

1124
00:54:05,718 --> 00:54:09,638
Speaker 1: much inward looking going on, you know, for lack of

1125
00:54:09,638 --> 00:54:12,438
Speaker 1: a better phrases they use in social media and navel gazing,

1126
00:54:12,798 --> 00:54:15,558
Speaker 1: where it's about you while you're looking in on yourself

1127
00:54:15,598 --> 00:54:19,078
Speaker 1: and you make your world very singular. No, that's not

1128
00:54:19,318 --> 00:54:22,918
Speaker 1: where satisfaction and gratitude comes from.

1129
00:54:22,958 --> 00:54:25,798
Speaker 2: It is truly a part of being something bigger.

1130
00:54:25,838 --> 00:54:28,238
Speaker 1: And I don't know about you, but you know, mostly

1131
00:54:28,278 --> 00:54:32,078
Speaker 1: growing up playing team sports, that's first nature to me

1132
00:54:32,558 --> 00:54:36,918
Speaker 1: to think about team. So it's not for a lot

1133
00:54:36,958 --> 00:54:39,078
Speaker 1: of people. I get that, I understand that, but it's

1134
00:54:39,118 --> 00:54:42,718
Speaker 1: a reminder that we should never take for granted that

1135
00:54:42,758 --> 00:54:45,158
Speaker 1: people think that it's a truism, because it is a

1136
00:54:45,158 --> 00:54:46,998
Speaker 1: truism and a lot of people do need to hear it,

1137
00:54:47,078 --> 00:54:50,238
Speaker 1: especially in today's world, that to be part of something

1138
00:54:50,278 --> 00:54:54,438
Speaker 1: bigger outside of yourself, that's where the true rewards are.

1139
00:54:54,478 --> 00:54:57,358
Speaker 3: Talking about team, you're talking about family, You're talking about

1140
00:54:57,438 --> 00:54:59,638
Speaker 3: all those different things. I think again, when I hear

1141
00:54:59,638 --> 00:55:01,678
Speaker 3: the word branding, I just like I cringe when I

1142
00:55:01,718 --> 00:55:04,158
Speaker 3: hear that, and even even to the point now I

1143
00:55:04,158 --> 00:55:05,958
Speaker 3: mean just I don't want to go from tangent, but

1144
00:55:05,998 --> 00:55:09,278
Speaker 3: like even like we've talked about this, for instance, travel

1145
00:55:09,318 --> 00:55:12,678
Speaker 3: teams as an example, and I used to play for

1146
00:55:13,198 --> 00:55:17,878
Speaker 3: the Hazelton area, Hazelton All Stars, the Mountaineers. I mean,

1147
00:55:17,918 --> 00:55:19,798
Speaker 3: you played for the area that you come from and

1148
00:55:19,798 --> 00:55:22,398
Speaker 3: the people that live in that area. To almost become

1149
00:55:22,438 --> 00:55:25,078
Speaker 3: a carpetbagger or a mercenary at an early age to

1150
00:55:25,078 --> 00:55:28,478
Speaker 3: pay money to go play somewhere else. There's the loyalties

1151
00:55:28,518 --> 00:55:32,638
Speaker 3: never built. You just don't arrive at that point where

1152
00:55:32,758 --> 00:55:35,958
Speaker 3: it means something to have that city name on the

1153
00:55:35,958 --> 00:55:37,638
Speaker 3: front of your shirt and you go out through it

1154
00:55:37,638 --> 00:55:39,118
Speaker 3: a bunch of guys that you grew up with and

1155
00:55:39,158 --> 00:55:41,518
Speaker 3: you beat a bunch of guys from another town. I

1156
00:55:41,518 --> 00:55:43,638
Speaker 3: mean that to me was the ultimate. I mean, we

1157
00:55:43,678 --> 00:55:46,198
Speaker 3: win the World Series, of course, and that's awesome, But

1158
00:55:46,718 --> 00:55:48,718
Speaker 3: I could go back to when the Molly mcguires we

1159
00:55:48,838 --> 00:55:51,758
Speaker 3: win our championship up in Swuersville for the Tennis League

1160
00:55:51,798 --> 00:55:54,398
Speaker 3: All Stars shoot. That might have been nineteen sixty seven

1161
00:55:54,478 --> 00:55:56,598
Speaker 3: or six. What a big moment. I mean, those are

1162
00:55:56,638 --> 00:55:59,718
Speaker 3: things that resonate to me and all the other dudes

1163
00:55:59,718 --> 00:56:01,358
Speaker 3: that live in this area that are run into that

1164
00:56:01,398 --> 00:56:04,078
Speaker 3: we grew up with together. We're missing that stuff. We're

1165
00:56:04,078 --> 00:56:06,758
Speaker 3: missing that we need to promote that more. But I

1166
00:56:07,118 --> 00:56:08,838
Speaker 3: listened to Genies out of the Bottle. I don't know

1167
00:56:08,878 --> 00:56:12,318
Speaker 3: that that could ever get placed back into that kind

1168
00:56:12,358 --> 00:56:12,918
Speaker 3: of routine.

1169
00:56:12,998 --> 00:56:15,118
Speaker 1: Yeah, and listen, playing for the name on the back

1170
00:56:15,158 --> 00:56:17,718
Speaker 1: of the jersey, there's nothing wrong with that either, because

1171
00:56:17,718 --> 00:56:20,798
Speaker 1: that name is not just your name, that is your

1172
00:56:20,958 --> 00:56:21,758
Speaker 1: family name.

1173
00:56:22,238 --> 00:56:25,838
Speaker 3: Agreed and listen. I'm very proud to where my name

1174
00:56:25,918 --> 00:56:28,118
Speaker 3: on the back of my jersey. And one of the

1175
00:56:28,118 --> 00:56:30,318
Speaker 3: big things for me to get to the big leagues

1176
00:56:30,478 --> 00:56:33,398
Speaker 3: was that my dad would be able to yes, say

1177
00:56:33,598 --> 00:56:36,318
Speaker 3: Yankee Stadium. I think I thought Yankee Stadium exactly, and

1178
00:56:37,478 --> 00:56:39,078
Speaker 3: then he'd be standing behind the dug out and I

1179
00:56:39,078 --> 00:56:40,918
Speaker 3: would walk out of the dugout with my name on

1180
00:56:40,958 --> 00:56:43,838
Speaker 3: the back of my shirt. Away thought that'd be a great.

1181
00:56:43,598 --> 00:56:47,238
Speaker 2: Moment, very cool. Hey, this was a very cool episode.

1182
00:56:47,398 --> 00:56:50,158
Speaker 1: We'll have to do something like this again because again,

1183
00:56:50,278 --> 00:56:53,998
Speaker 1: I'm recommended highly if you're a fan of baseball, the

1184
00:56:54,038 --> 00:56:58,238
Speaker 1: space race, American history, what makes great people tick, all

1185
00:56:58,278 --> 00:56:58,998
Speaker 1: of that stuff.

1186
00:56:59,198 --> 00:57:01,198
Speaker 2: You've got it in the Wingman. A lot of fun. Joe,

1187
00:57:01,238 --> 00:57:02,318
Speaker 2: thanks again, well.

1188
00:57:02,198 --> 00:57:03,918
Speaker 3: Don Tommy, thank you.

1189
00:57:09,478 --> 00:57:12,718
Speaker 1: The Book of Joe podcast is a production of iHeartRadio.

1190
00:57:12,918 --> 00:57:17,918
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts,

1191
00:57:18,038 --> 00:57:19,798
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts.