Speaker 1: Wind Down with Jana Kramer and I'm Heeart Radio Podcast.
Speaker 2: Hi guys, Hi, Hello Janet, Hello Catherine.
Speaker 3: Hi.
Speaker 4: We had so much fun last week. So many people
Speaker 4: were laughing saying they were like dying in their car.
Speaker 2: It was fun. Oh remember what happened last week by accident?
Speaker 4: We were she found something on my text message.
Speaker 2: That was fun.
Speaker 5: Was my husband's response, Oh yeah, so listen to this.
Speaker 4: So we go out. We had a double date last night.
Speaker 4: It was Ian Catherine and her husband Nick, and so
Speaker 4: Nick goes, I just need to bring something up at
Speaker 4: the dinner table. He goes, I feel very left out
Speaker 4: that I'm the only one that's not seen Ian's penis.
Speaker 1: He had no idea until he listened. He saw like
Speaker 1: my little teaser on my thing and he was like,
Speaker 1: wait what. So he went listened. He came home, He's like,
Speaker 1: so you saw Ian's thing.
Speaker 2: I was like, yeah, did you say packer? Yeah? He
Speaker 2: said packer. I don't know if we can use that word. Yeah.
Speaker 4: That was so that's that's been like a running joke.
Speaker 4: And so at dinner last night, you know, I was
Speaker 4: like we were all laughing about it. Nick felt very
Speaker 4: left out.
Speaker 2: It was like when it's brought up like at the
Speaker 2: dinner table.
Speaker 1: I was like, I can't look at him, Like you
Speaker 1: can't look at Ian when we're talking about it.
Speaker 2: You know, it's very uncomfortable. Can't get that angle out
Speaker 2: of your head.
Speaker 3: No is he is? He in fine with it. He
Speaker 3: thinks it's all fun and games.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: I mean he's like he thinks.
Speaker 3: I love a confident guy.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: He goes when I was like a podcasting to get
Speaker 4: today and he goes, have fun. You know, like what
Speaker 4: he says something like go go laugh or have fun,
Speaker 4: Like he doesn't mind that we kind of crack jokes
Speaker 4: or good because it's like he knows it's all in fun.
Speaker 4: And he you know, he said, it's it's nice to
Speaker 4: hear you laugh. Like sometimes he's downstairs when I'm recording,
Speaker 4: so he's like, it's really sweet to hear you laugh.
Speaker 2: When we laughed that hard, you know, did he texts
Speaker 2: that day? Yeah? He was like, here are a lot
Speaker 2: of laughing up there.
Speaker 4: I was like, oh, well, if you only knew what
Speaker 4: was going on.
Speaker 2: Yeah.
Speaker 4: We were talking last night though about grocery store flowers.
Speaker 2: Oh this is there's a transition.
Speaker 4: We were talking about last night because Iann, he's so sweet,
Speaker 4: but like there was just they were just laying on
Speaker 4: the counter and I'm like, how do I know they're
Speaker 4: for me? Like I don't know, like his mom was
Speaker 4: in town and like you know, and so, and he's.
Speaker 2: Like who would they be for? Like who else would
Speaker 2: they be for?
Speaker 4: And I'm like, well, I don't know, Like you know,
Speaker 4: I'm not going to like make up that they're for me,
Speaker 4: like you didn't come walking in being like here, babe,
Speaker 4: I got you flowers. He's like, well, like, but I
Speaker 4: got them for you and they're on the table. I'm like, well,
Speaker 4: how do I know they're like my mine? And then
Speaker 4: you know, and then we kind of started going in
Speaker 4: the topic of grocery store flowers.
Speaker 2: Yeah, oh, I've gotten lots of grocery store flowers.
Speaker 4: And I do like them to come and be like, like,
Speaker 4: you know, so Ian He then takes the so he
Speaker 4: did it again with an orchid. There was an orchid
Speaker 4: sitting there in the in the It was just really
Speaker 4: cute and I was just like, O babe, what are
Speaker 4: these and he goes, oh, yeah, I got you flowers
Speaker 4: and I was like, oh, okay.
Speaker 2: Things.
Speaker 4: I was like I was like I just didn't know
Speaker 4: there were for me. And that's when he goes into
Speaker 4: the whole like, well, how do you like? Of course
Speaker 4: they're for you, like this is your house and they're flowers,
Speaker 4: and I was like, I don't know, And so then
Speaker 4: he takes them and he walks and he goes, honey,
Speaker 4: I'm home and I've brought you beautiful flowers from from
Speaker 4: the store.
Speaker 2: Here are these new beginning orchids for you. And I'm like, okay,
Speaker 2: and just tossing them on the calendar.
Speaker 3: There might be somewhere in.
Speaker 4: Between, yeah, like just so like, I don't know, I like,
Speaker 4: am I crazy for thinking that? I will just say,
Speaker 4: any effort is amazing, So like any that's why I think,
Speaker 4: like them just cutting him from a garden or go like,
Speaker 4: I think any flowers are great. Having said that, I
Speaker 4: still eventually, you know, will maybe once a year have
Speaker 4: the nice like.
Speaker 5: Well, I think grocery store flowers seems like an afterthought.
Speaker 5: You're at the grocery store and you get flowers. But
Speaker 5: at the in their defense, they said, no, like you
Speaker 5: should see that I'm thinking about you. I'm at the
Speaker 5: grocery store and I got you flowers.
Speaker 4: See that's how I see it. I don't see this.
Speaker 4: See I don't see this after I think, because like,
Speaker 4: why would you go to this grocer store to get
Speaker 4: grocery store flowers unless you remark that because you needed
Speaker 4: in that early.
Speaker 2: It's exactly bought.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so it's like that makes sense to me, But
Speaker 4: like they're not. They're going to the grocery store to
Speaker 4: get hummus and carrots and mistakes.
Speaker 5: So it seems like an after No, that's.
Speaker 4: Sweet that they're then been like, oh and now I'm
Speaker 4: going to get something for my wife, like to make
Speaker 4: her smile.
Speaker 5: Well that's what they're were saying. But I feel like
Speaker 5: we weren't agreeing with that.
Speaker 2: Yeah you thought it's just me?
Speaker 4: Yeah, well we I agree to disagree. Well, pivoting to
Speaker 4: a different conversation, We've got a really cool guest coming on.
Speaker 2: He's an author. He has a book called Love.
Speaker 4: Unfug on Amazon today. But I'm super excited to hear
Speaker 4: his story. And yeah, it's about getting your relationship crap together.
Speaker 4: Love his patient. Love is blind until it's not. So yeah,
Speaker 4: I'm super excited to get out give it up. I'm
Speaker 4: super excited to get him on. So let's take a
Speaker 4: break and then let's meet Garry. I can't hear you.
Speaker 3: Hello? Is that a fake English accent?
Speaker 4: I have the worst accents ever, and I apologize. It's
Speaker 4: absolutely terrible, and.
Speaker 3: That's good.
Speaker 4: But I love your accent. My goodness, gracious, I've been
Speaker 4: working on a long time, been working on it a
Speaker 4: long time, Like I just like, God, do you hate
Speaker 4: it when people do what.
Speaker 2: I just did? Yeah, that's tough.
Speaker 4: Love love it because wait, where are you from? Originally,
Speaker 4: let's go scott Okay. So I went to a friend's
Speaker 4: wedding in port Patrick.
Speaker 3: All right, okay, and we say it in.
Speaker 4: This we flew into Glasgow, right, actually say it like
Speaker 4: like Glasgow.
Speaker 3: So it's like glass Jill, let's go. I actually gave
Speaker 3: you the whole thing to you should be practicing now Glasgow.
Speaker 2: Let's go Glasgow.
Speaker 4: I I didn't get a chance to go to Glasgow,
Speaker 4: but I I want to go back because I tell
Speaker 4: you what that was. I mean, you know this because
Speaker 4: you're from there. But that is the most beautiful country
Speaker 4: I have ever been to.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it's pretty stunning, and Glasgow is a great.
Speaker 4: For Yeah, I mean it's like stunning. But okay, I
Speaker 4: want to I want to get into you know, your
Speaker 4: You're very big obviously in the self help motivational You've
Speaker 4: got your book out called love On, where like, what
Speaker 4: was your journey with relationships to get to writing those books?
Speaker 3: Oh, So it was kind of like the other way
Speaker 3: for me. So a lot of people get into the
Speaker 3: personal development work from sorting something out in the life.
Speaker 3: Actually the other way. I I was kind of like
Speaker 3: a student of the method of like philosophy, and so
Speaker 3: I got into it that way, like trying to understand
Speaker 3: what was going on and then using that in my life,
Speaker 3: like seeing how the philosophy actually works. So the book
Speaker 3: is less based on my experience, even though there's little
Speaker 3: bits of that in there. It's more like it's more
Speaker 3: like this kind of I feel like like a pathway
Speaker 3: for people, like a philosophical pathway, which I use in
Speaker 3: my life. I use it daily, you know, And there's
Speaker 3: nothing in that book that's not real. For me, It's
Speaker 3: all real. I use it. I thought that way, I
Speaker 3: live that way, and I'm not only say oh, that's
Speaker 3: the key to having a great relationship, but it certainly
Speaker 3: makes mine a lot more workable. Let's put it that way.
Speaker 4: So what is the thing that you and your wife
Speaker 4: do that you think is kind of like the key?
Speaker 4: I mean, I know you said there isn't a key,
Speaker 4: but what is like a few things that like makes
Speaker 4: y'all's relationship work.
Speaker 3: I don't expect talk to be any way other than
Speaker 3: the way she is and vice versa, Like, who the
Speaker 3: hell am I tell her the way she should be?
Speaker 3: But she's our own person, So I don't. I have
Speaker 3: no expectation of my wife. She doesn't. Just as long
Speaker 3: as she's kind of around, that's good. You know, I don't.
Speaker 3: If she's in a pessy mood or something, that's fine.
Speaker 2: It's like that's her mood. Don't don't you know take
Speaker 2: that on?
Speaker 3: You know, like and I don't even do that with
Speaker 3: my children. But after a lot of space for my
Speaker 3: wife to be yourself and and and authentically just be yourself,
Speaker 3: like she doesn't have to be anyway with me, And
Speaker 3: you know that's the same with her, like she doesn't.
Speaker 3: There's no like you need to be this way so
Speaker 3: that I can be this way. You need to be
Speaker 3: that way so that I can be that way. We
Speaker 3: don't have that dynamic. I'm not saying you haven't had
Speaker 3: that dynamic, but we don't have that dynamic any longer,
Speaker 3: and that's a big part of it. It's letting go
Speaker 3: of how people are supposed to be and actually loving
Speaker 3: the person they are.
Speaker 4: What do you think is like the biggest mistake that
Speaker 4: couples make.
Speaker 3: That it's supposed to be fifty to fifty?
Speaker 4: Okay, explain that.
Speaker 3: That's an illusion. It's just how so well, if you
Speaker 3: just think of a notion, right, think it like philosophically,
Speaker 3: how that would set up? Right? Just think of like
Speaker 3: two people fifty to fifty. Mostly the way human beings
Speaker 3: work is I'm basically going to just sit and observe
Speaker 3: you and make sure you're doing your fifty. So that's
Speaker 3: where I'm complaining. So that's when we start talking about
Speaker 3: my needs aren't being met, which is a whole other thing,
Speaker 3: by the way, because whatever needs you have as a
Speaker 3: human being are often stuff you haven't reconciled for yourself
Speaker 3: from your own past that maybe you need to do
Speaker 3: a little bit of work on, which is okay. It's
Speaker 3: not like those things aren't real. They're real, but it
Speaker 3: just makes it really challenging when you make that your
Speaker 3: partner's problem, like something they've got in now, you know,
Speaker 3: it's not that it can't work with it, through it,
Speaker 3: or support you with it or anything like that. Of
Speaker 3: course they can't. But when they have to start, you know,
Speaker 3: like twisting their arms through the back of the leg
Speaker 3: and stuff to try and you know, meet you where
Speaker 3: you are, you're just going to constantly. I mean, that's
Speaker 3: going to be the place where you're going to your
Speaker 3: your relationship's going to live and die. So to be
Speaker 3: in a relationship requires you to kind of be introspective
Speaker 3: a lot of the time, which is sometimes challenging because
Speaker 3: we live in a dynamic of blind you know, so
Speaker 3: we live in this or you did and then I didn't.
Speaker 3: And like I said, it's not like I'm walking about
Speaker 3: on air. I've had that relationship that was terrible. It
Speaker 3: was horrible and it didn't work. It just didn't work.
Speaker 3: It was unworkable. It was constantly or you need to no, no, no,
Speaker 3: I did, and then you need to. So we just
Speaker 3: end up in this. Your relationship becomes more of a
Speaker 3: judgment and observation than actually, what is it that makes
Speaker 3: this thing work or could make it work or make
Speaker 3: it work? Great for you.
Speaker 5: It's good. I like that.
Speaker 4: So then what do you need to do?
Speaker 3: Then? Yeah, it's really at the beginning, it's kind of confronting,
Speaker 3: you know, it's in fact, it's very confronting because you
Speaker 3: start to see all the things you have been doing
Speaker 3: that make it not work. It's hard to see yourself
Speaker 3: in the dynamic of a partnership because their eyes are
Speaker 3: on you and your eyes are on them. It's really
Speaker 3: hard to see yourself. You're too busy defending yourself, you know,
Speaker 3: and your little bit of territory, you know, and and again,
Speaker 3: you know, like that's why a lot of the kind
Speaker 3: of advice and stuff that's out there about it is
Speaker 3: organized around that. So it's all about tips and tricks
Speaker 3: on how to make this kind of territory thing work.
Speaker 3: And it's never I mean, I believe anyway, Like all
Speaker 3: the good transformational work you do, all the kind of
Speaker 3: work you do on yourself as a human being, they're
Speaker 3: really good. Stuff is really hard, Like it's not easy,
Speaker 3: you know, it's just not. But it's so worthwhile. It
Speaker 3: opens up so many pathways for you, so many realizations,
Speaker 3: so many like oh my gosh, because you know, whether
Speaker 3: we like it or not. It's human beings. When each
Speaker 3: of us is around life has a certain flavor. You know,
Speaker 3: we're not a blank canvas where something right and we'll
Speaker 3: be much something. And it would be a little naive
Speaker 3: to think that that's something isn't playing out in your
Speaker 3: relationship in a negative way. M hm.
Speaker 5: So you basically then are just focusing on yourself.
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you have to. You have to. You have to,
Speaker 3: like if you at least to get your get your
Speaker 3: kind of feet on the ground, like you know, to
Speaker 3: get yourself set about what this thing's about. There's no
Speaker 3: guarantee you that that will make your relationship work. And
Speaker 3: I actually talk about that in this book, to actually
Speaker 3: talk about how to split up right, which seems like
Speaker 3: the antithesis of every relationship book but not mine. But
Speaker 3: I wanted people to really understand, like you have to
Speaker 3: get your feet set about you, who you are, what
Speaker 3: you're about, how you'll undermine, how you'll how you'll sabotage
Speaker 3: what's good and and then like starting company turns with
Speaker 3: if you think of our relationship right, like there's it's
Speaker 3: kind of like a spoking and unspoken agreement between two people, right,
Speaker 3: So there's things that when we're in a relationship, we
Speaker 3: don't necessarily have to talk about that, but we both
Speaker 3: know that that's a now right. There's things like that, right,
Speaker 3: and then there's things that we've talked about. But what
Speaker 3: we never do is is deal with the agreement that
Speaker 3: we're going to have to make with ourselves because we
Speaker 3: know what we do right. We know like, oh yeah,
Speaker 3: this is the thing that I'll get and that won't
Speaker 3: go well, and we try and overcome it. So in
Speaker 3: the book, I talk you through like there's a point
Speaker 3: where you have to get to the agreement with yourself,
Speaker 3: and when you're there, you're actually grounded and able to
Speaker 3: make an agreement with somebody else. You're actually in a
Speaker 3: spot where you can say, you know, I can actually
Speaker 3: I can do this right. It's not like oh God,
Speaker 3: all things out. It's really about can I get yourself
Speaker 3: settled down? And it's not pollyannish like those bets in
Speaker 3: the book, But I just say, if your relationship fundamentally
Speaker 3: doesn't work and you need to face that truth, you
Speaker 3: stop pretending and come to terms with that.
Speaker 4: So that's something that I was going to bring up
Speaker 4: to you because I have a lot of I got
Speaker 4: divorced last year. Yeah, and you know, I have a
Speaker 4: lot of people reach out to me saying like when
Speaker 4: did you know enough was enough? And it's like, yeah,
Speaker 4: I went through seven years of just back and forth
Speaker 4: hell and trauma and abuse and you know, affairs, and
Speaker 4: it's like it's so hard because when you hear someone
Speaker 4: saying that they're going to change and they're gonna be
Speaker 4: a different version, it's it's hard to not be like, well, shoot,
Speaker 4: I don't want the next person to get the change
Speaker 4: version that I've like waited for. And then like after
Speaker 4: so many times, it's like it's so hard to leave.
Speaker 4: But I feel like when you do leave, like that
Speaker 4: is when you truly start to notice like oh wow,
Speaker 4: like that wasn't normal or now I've you know, I
Speaker 4: feel lighter here, Like you don't realize how much like
Speaker 4: weight the relationship is like holding on you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, you'll get a lot of relief for sure, Right,
Speaker 3: But if you just use your example there, which is
Speaker 3: a bant example because that's exactly what people cited themselves,
Speaker 3: you have to get through this process of convincing yourself
Speaker 3: and then there's a point in that when you realize
Speaker 3: that's convincing. It's just bs, right, but that's not true.
Speaker 3: Just about relationships. This is what people do in life, right,
Speaker 3: We tolerate, we put up with because we feel as
Speaker 3: if we can.
Speaker 4: Overcome it, yeah, or we can change it, you know,
Speaker 4: we're capable of changing someone's choices and behaviors.
Speaker 3: There's definitely a part of that. But if you look
Speaker 3: in the background of the white people work, if you can,
Speaker 3: I get, you would think, well, this is I'm in
Speaker 3: something right now that's terrible for me, right, like this
Speaker 3: is terrible. What you're really more afraid of is the
Speaker 3: alternative long Ye, it's like that, right, like whatever that is,
Speaker 3: which is a fundamental fear for people. It's a fear
Speaker 3: of the uncertain, right of the unknown, because you're exposed
Speaker 3: and you're vulnerable and you can loose. You know, people
Speaker 3: hate that experience. So by and large, people will stay
Speaker 3: in situations that fundamentally do not work for them for
Speaker 3: a little more than the knowledge that at least they
Speaker 3: know it, and they'll grind that up like sometimes like
Speaker 3: in complete messity, right, in complete mesity, and you have
Speaker 3: to get like the kind of internal noise that one
Speaker 3: has about that and yet in it it's a lot
Speaker 3: of convincing, it's a lot of yeah button, it's a
Speaker 3: lot of you know, well you have to really you know.
Speaker 3: So it gets complex, and that internal noise, it gets complex,
Speaker 3: it gets layered. It takes a while before you're kind
Speaker 3: of like, whoa wait a minute here, now this is
Speaker 3: not good for me. This is and you know, tell
Speaker 3: a lot of what I do with people is provide them,
Speaker 3: but they cannot work and they kind of think and
Speaker 3: that lets them if that's the kind of situation that
Speaker 3: I they'll get to that realization. Quicker certainly, queer.
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's that's so hard. But you're so right.
Speaker 4: Like I remember, you know, when my friends are all
Speaker 4: like okay, Janna, like enough is enough. The alternative is like, well,
Speaker 4: I don't want anyone around my kids, and you know,
Speaker 4: I don't want to have to split holidays and I
Speaker 4: don't want to be alone, and no one's gonna who's
Speaker 4: who's who the heck's going to want to be with me.
Speaker 4: I've got two kids, I'm divorced, Like you know, there's
Speaker 4: all this like I don't want to be alone forever,
Speaker 4: and I think those fears are and I'm like, I
Speaker 4: don't want to date, I don't want to like And
Speaker 4: mostly it was, you know, ninety percent of it. When
Speaker 4: I'd say eighty, it was like, you know, no, no,
Speaker 4: ninety like not being with my kids, you know, and
Speaker 4: just like someone else being around them, and like that
Speaker 4: alternative sucked. But I mean, you're right, it's like you
Speaker 4: just have to realize. And I don't know, do you
Speaker 4: do you like the quote when when people say like
Speaker 4: they're showing you who they are, so believe them or now.
Speaker 3: I think I think we're all. Look, here's what relationships do,
Speaker 3: whether we like it or not. This is what's so
Speaker 3: when when you get two people together, whatever's on resolved
Speaker 3: from their own past is going to come up. It's
Speaker 3: coming up, and you can't. It's like trying to keep
Speaker 3: a beach ball under the under the water. You can't, right,
Speaker 3: So whatever you haven't resolved for yourself. I talk about
Speaker 3: this in the book. Most relationships start out as a
Speaker 3: solution is something for the people involved. So it's a
Speaker 3: solution is something and and and the vast majority of
Speaker 3: the time it's some personal item with themselves that they've
Speaker 3: never quite been able to resolve. That they see this
Speaker 3: other person and it seems to fit. It's like, oh
Speaker 3: my gosh, that's why we talk about the one because
Speaker 3: of something about it. Then that takes care of this
Speaker 3: whatever this is currently missing. Once you get relationship, you
Speaker 3: realize that it's not filled at all. That thing isn't
Speaker 3: taken care of If I it's still there, but it's
Speaker 3: now going to play out between two people. You know,
Speaker 3: whether we like it or not. You know, we're we're
Speaker 3: very much driven by what's in the background of our
Speaker 3: mind's not what's in the foreground. That's why determination couldn't
Speaker 3: see you through that like it couldn't because quote unquote
Speaker 3: the truth will out right and it's an unresolved truth.
Speaker 3: In relationships, people will do really really really three things,
Speaker 3: but just really three things. They'll do them from my perspective,
Speaker 3: and then the work that I deal it would be
Speaker 3: really easy just for me to go, well, that makes
Speaker 3: you a terrible person, and no, I tend to look
Speaker 3: at like, wow, how come you ended up there? Like
Speaker 3: what the heck happened that you landed on that spot.
Speaker 3: And that's how you see life, and that's how you
Speaker 3: treat people, and that's how you interact with others, and
Speaker 3: that's how you handle things like love and trust and
Speaker 3: you know, and integrity and loyalty and like whoa, you know,
Speaker 3: I'm fascinated by that because we're not we're not fully
Speaker 3: conscious of how we end up where we're at. We
Speaker 3: just know we're there. And that's not to you let
Speaker 3: anybody off the hulk or make excuses for people. It's
Speaker 3: not about that at all. Fact, you know you're going
Speaker 3: to have to deal with yourself and deal with the
Speaker 3: consequences of not only who you are but who you've been.
Speaker 3: But at the same time, you know it's it's it's
Speaker 3: definitely a fascinating thing when when you actually track back
Speaker 3: in your own life and see how the heck because
Speaker 3: with no clear with no clear direction or our head
Speaker 3: like I'm just going to be this kind of person
Speaker 3: and that kind of person, we just kind of weaver
Speaker 3: way through it. And a lot of our work is
Speaker 3: doing that with people, is having you fundamentally profoundly connected
Speaker 3: to your own machinery in a way that that actually
Speaker 3: resonates with you and gives you the powerty and make
Speaker 3: different choices in your own wife.
Speaker 4: What like now, Okay, so now that I'm in I'm
Speaker 4: in a new relationship. Now do you do you ever
Speaker 4: tell anyone like these are certain red flags to look
Speaker 4: out for in a new relationship.
Speaker 3: Now that's that's a red flag.
Speaker 5: Asking about a red flag because it's about you or
Speaker 5: not the other one.
Speaker 2: That's what you're saying.
Speaker 5: You have to think about yourself, talk about yourself.
Speaker 3: That's a red flag. And I'll tell you, I'll tell
Speaker 3: you a big problem you'll have. You won't have to
Speaker 3: tell you this, but thank god we're talking. This is
Speaker 3: what an awful lot of people do. They use the
Speaker 3: last thing is some can attempt for the next thing.
Speaker 3: So whatever the last thing was, it gets to live
Speaker 3: on here and it gets to live on Like you,
Speaker 3: you'd always find an evidence. And this is part of
Speaker 3: the work you do with yourself. Like am I getting
Speaker 3: a clear look at this? Or is this some can
Speaker 3: I call it in from the past? That's at play here.
Speaker 3: What what you'll rastle with at the beginning is something
Speaker 3: called trust right. And again in the book what as
Speaker 3: what is trust right? What is it? And when you
Speaker 3: trust somebody, what are you looking at? What are you
Speaker 3: lying on? And when they ask you to trust them,
Speaker 3: what are they relying on? Which is not the same
Speaker 3: they're lying on something else. So if I say to you,
Speaker 3: trust me, I'm saying that to you, and I've got
Speaker 3: a certain gauge for what that is and isn't. If
Speaker 3: you're somebody who's listening to that, you're playing a different
Speaker 3: set of rules when it comes to trucks than I am,
Speaker 3: even though we are talking about the same thing. So
Speaker 3: that's why you get in complete with the past is
Speaker 3: so important for all human beings. When I say getting complete,
Speaker 3: just getting settled with and how you can tell you're
Speaker 3: settled with something as the zero emotional attachment to it,
Speaker 3: like nothing right, and you can get there right, it's
Speaker 3: not rocket science. You can get there. It's a process
Speaker 3: of acceptance and letting go of judgment and you know,
Speaker 3: kind of getting somebody's humanity without necessarily it's not again,
Speaker 3: it's never about letting them off the hook. It's never
Speaker 3: about in fact, they had nothing to do with the
Speaker 3: dynamic of blind it's a it's somebody who's interested in
Speaker 3: having something be complete in such a way that you
Speaker 3: can move on. Now your new relationship should be all
Speaker 3: about what you're creating.
Speaker 4: Well, you see that's where I'm like, We're like, because
Speaker 4: you brought up a good word like sabotage, because I
Speaker 4: have tried in the beginning to sabotage it just because
Speaker 4: I'm like, yeah, I just got a relationship where I
Speaker 4: couldn't trust a man, or like of course, I'm like,
Speaker 4: of course this new man's gonna cheat and lie and
Speaker 4: be you know gas you know, gaslight and have mean
Speaker 4: words like of course, Like it's all sweet now the
Speaker 4: honeymoon phase. I'm like, you're gonna end up just doing
Speaker 4: the same thing. And he's like you can't. He's like,
Speaker 4: I'm not your ex, and I'm like, well I don't
Speaker 4: know that, right, and then I just sabotage it. And
Speaker 4: then he's like stop trying to push me away.
Speaker 3: Right, So when you so, I'll use again. It's a
Speaker 3: really common thing, right, So it's more human than you
Speaker 3: would think, right, It's not necessarily you. It's more like,
Speaker 3: this is what human beings do. But if you look
Speaker 3: at like the things that you say, right, of course
Speaker 3: you're going to do this, and of course you want
Speaker 3: to do that. Of course you want to do this,
Speaker 3: and then you're going to do like this because like
Speaker 3: everybody else and dead that that and that moment when
Speaker 3: you're saying those things, what way would you say you are?
Speaker 3: You're being what bitchy? Yeah?
Speaker 4: Okay, go ahead, And I'm protecting myself, like I think think,
Speaker 4: I'm like I'm justification.
Speaker 3: You got to watch that. You can't no, you can't
Speaker 3: go here.
Speaker 4: Well I don't think I'm like deserving of it too.
Speaker 4: So it's like because of my past historical Well yeah.
Speaker 3: It's like psychological. It's very psychological. You'll end up in
Speaker 3: a tunnel. You just got to look in that moment
Speaker 3: you're being cynical, okay, right now, and this relationship with
Speaker 3: this person, and that moment you're being cynical. So now
Speaker 3: you're going to get the results called cynical.
Speaker 4: I got a Google syncal because like I know the word,
Speaker 4: but I don't actually know what it means.
Speaker 3: Right, It's kind of like it's kind of like this
Speaker 3: messive and like you no matter what somebody does or said.
Speaker 3: So I was like, yeah, but you don't you know
Speaker 3: seconds and it's a fundamental state for all of us,
Speaker 3: of the various things. But in that moment, when you're
Speaker 3: being that way to your partner, you're now being cynical, right,
Speaker 3: even though you would profess to say I love you
Speaker 3: right now, I'm being cynical. So I'm bringing sentences of
Speaker 3: the table, which again, okay, that's fine as long as
Speaker 3: you know that's what you're bringing to the table. See
Speaker 3: what you were going to say was here's why I'm cynical.
Speaker 3: That'll actually make no difference in the quality of your relationship.
Speaker 3: Understanding that you're being cynical will make a difference in
Speaker 3: the quality of your relationship. Now, you might have concerns,
Speaker 3: you might have worries, you might have things on your mind,
Speaker 3: you might have fears, and it would be entirely appropriate
Speaker 3: for if they're there for you, if your partner's open
Speaker 3: to you having that kind of conversation in that moment,
Speaker 3: that you would be able to vocalize those but more like,
Speaker 3: here's what's rattling around in my cage, rather than yeah,
Speaker 3: but you you understand the difference, like I'm getting like,
Speaker 3: this is what I wrestle with as a human being, right,
Speaker 3: like I'm being And it's important that you understand what
Speaker 3: you're wrestling. It's importantly you know, like you know, yeah,
Speaker 3: wrestle with that, Like that's a thing for me. Now
Speaker 3: I'm going to offer you something for you personally are
Speaker 3: you are you owing for me to give you a please?
Speaker 4: And all any and all?
Speaker 3: All right, all right, there's some unresolved thing that you
Speaker 3: are but being loved and lovable from being a kid. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And I don't know who it was, but you had
Speaker 3: that can experience like you're just not loved or known
Speaker 3: they're appreciated something like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, for sure.
Speaker 3: That's a bit manifesting over and over and over and
Speaker 3: so manifest in the ways and the people you choose
Speaker 3: to share your life with and that in some ways,
Speaker 3: but in in other ways. If someone shows up in
Speaker 3: your life who's not that way, you'll diminish their love
Speaker 3: for you, m because they can't coexist with what you
Speaker 3: fundamentally believe to be true. Does that make sense?
Speaker 4: It does? Yeah. Right.
Speaker 3: I don't want to sound like I'm some kind of
Speaker 3: freaking psyde kick or something, because I'm not. But I
Speaker 3: do want you to know like we are very much
Speaker 3: driven by what's in the background of our thoughts, not
Speaker 3: but what's in the for not by a logic. There's
Speaker 3: like a there's like the logic, you would say, and
Speaker 3: then there's the logic that drives here. Right, So as
Speaker 3: uncomfortable as it as to hear. Any relationship you've been
Speaker 3: in has been no accident, right, It's been something you've
Speaker 3: been Whether you're conscious of us or not, doesn't matter.
Speaker 3: It's something you've been a vilable for, even though you
Speaker 3: might not want it. Yeah, you're a vilable for it.
Speaker 3: So I would invite you to try on that the
Speaker 3: work that if I were you, that i'd be interested
Speaker 3: in dealing would be like get into the heart of
Speaker 3: that experience yourself not being loved mm, because that that's
Speaker 3: what will cause more damage than anything. In fact, I
Speaker 3: would assert has caused the most damage with you.
Speaker 2: Oh for sure.
Speaker 4: I mean that's one thousand percent. I mean even to
Speaker 4: this day, like you know you love no. I mean
Speaker 4: it's so true because even to this day, it's like
Speaker 4: I'm still trying to get the love from my ex
Speaker 4: husband who hates me, you know, and.
Speaker 2: I'm like, well, why do you hate me?
Speaker 4: You're the one that ruined us. Like I'm still trying
Speaker 4: to get love from people that you know, But it
Speaker 4: all comes back to my father because he left and
Speaker 4: I was in love, you know, like the little girl,
Speaker 4: and like I know, I know all that, but I
Speaker 4: can't don't.
Speaker 3: Now you don't, No, you don't.
Speaker 4: But I know it, but I don't believe that, like
Speaker 4: I am love.
Speaker 2: So it's like when you laugh.
Speaker 3: When he laughed, right and your dad laugh Yeah, all right,
Speaker 3: you're ready. I'm like rocky now, all right, so so
Speaker 3: put your freaking seat belts. So I'm all right. So
Speaker 3: how old were you when you left?
Speaker 4: Well, he started to be absent when I was five,
Speaker 4: but he officially left the family when I was thirteen.
Speaker 3: All right. And then between the ages of five and
Speaker 3: thirteen would he come and go.
Speaker 4: Yeah, I just felt like he was always angry and
Speaker 4: I would want to like have that like dad dad,
Speaker 4: but like he never answered me back, and so it
Speaker 4: just felt like a because he wasn't really like and
Speaker 4: now we have a great relationship, but I just he
Speaker 4: wasn't present, and I just he was always very angry,
Speaker 4: and I.
Speaker 2: Was scared of him.
Speaker 3: What did you make that mean?
Speaker 4: Oh, that I'm not a good girl, that I'm not
Speaker 4: worth it, I'm not lovable, I'm.
Speaker 3: Not too You got to sit with me a minute,
Speaker 3: You got to think for a set.
Speaker 4: Uh huh.
Speaker 2: It's too flippant, too flippant.
Speaker 3: So I need you to be with me for a moment,
Speaker 3: could just be with i'ment. I want you to kind
Speaker 3: of put yourself back then, like just less your thoughts
Speaker 3: go back to some of those incidents, because some of
Speaker 3: them are more wives than others, Like I remember the
Speaker 3: time when right, You've got a couple of those in mind, right, Yeah,
Speaker 3: why you have those in mind, by the way, because
Speaker 3: they were pederl So you have a memory of that moment,
Speaker 3: but you also have all the emotional attachment to that
Speaker 3: moment and it's still here. So if I talk to
Speaker 3: you about that moment you start to share with me
Speaker 3: that moment, all of those experiences will be right. You
Speaker 3: feel like you're there right as it falls out of
Speaker 3: your mind. Yeah, so I want you to kind of
Speaker 3: recollect one of those moments. You don't even have to
Speaker 3: tell me, Okay, that's when you recollect the moment. It
Speaker 3: can be in the presence at the moment, like that
Speaker 3: moment that you demand Burner when he and you and
Speaker 3: the earliest one you can remember, just the first one
Speaker 3: like yeah, I was probably blah blah blah, and we
Speaker 3: were sitting or standing or you know, where were you
Speaker 3: and what do you demember about? What was going on
Speaker 3: around here, and he said that, and you had said
Speaker 3: blah blah blah. And in that moment, what did you
Speaker 3: say to yourself?
Speaker 4: I'm not safe?
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, good job, which still rattles around in your case.
Speaker 3: That's why you're so independent, hm mm hmmmm mmm mm hmmm,
Speaker 3: fearfully and dependent. You're not easy to love. Now, you're
Speaker 3: hard to love because yourself robust sofa you know, so
Speaker 3: if you're a challenge for somebody to love, and yet
Speaker 3: your fundamental complaint is I'm not loved. I'm not safe,
Speaker 3: I'm not loved. Do you know how I knew that
Speaker 3: was the words that you said, I'm not saying Do
Speaker 3: you know why I knew that was it? Because it's
Speaker 3: not sophisticated, simple, That's what a kid would say to themselves.
Speaker 3: Now you see how like right now you're your child.
Speaker 3: You get that you're doing great. You're doing great. Letter
Speaker 3: all up, Let letter that shut up. It's good. This
Speaker 3: is good stuff for you.
Speaker 4: Oh, I just I just hate it because I don't
Speaker 4: want it to ruin, Like I don't want to not
Speaker 4: be lovable, because that's all I want is love.
Speaker 3: That's all the independence, that's all the independence. Talking right now,
Speaker 3: let it just let it be, don't wrestle with it,
Speaker 3: just let it be. Just let it be. Let it
Speaker 3: be itself. You don't have to make that be any
Speaker 3: other way than the way that it adds mhm. See.
Speaker 3: The wrestling with something like that is actually what keeps
Speaker 3: in existence. So if I keep wrestling with it, I'm
Speaker 3: not enough. I'm living a life if I'm not enough.
Speaker 3: If I let it be itself, if I give it
Speaker 3: a little better room for itself, I'm not defined by it.
Speaker 3: So that this is the sort of work that you
Speaker 3: need to do. You need to, You need to You
Speaker 3: need to kind of do that work to can appeal
Speaker 3: back some layers and deal with your own sentence. See
Speaker 3: that's why my relationship book it's not about can get
Speaker 3: along with somebody else, that's part of it. But it's like,
Speaker 3: who is in this relationship? Well, and your relationship is
Speaker 3: I'm not safe, so back the off. That's who's in
Speaker 3: your relationship? Yeah right, And it's being in your relationship
Speaker 3: and it's pushed people away who said they dead love
Speaker 3: your right, So then that's out and what and then
Speaker 3: and then but again it's funny, this is the kind
Speaker 3: of cycle of I don't listen. My second book book
Speaker 3: was called why is not That? That was my favorite.
Speaker 3: It was called stop doing that and up break down,
Speaker 3: Like what your self sabotaged is really all about what
Speaker 3: it actually is doing and why it does what it does.
Speaker 3: And unless you fully understand that, you'll just live a
Speaker 3: life of being run by it. It'll run you and
Speaker 3: you get so focused on your circumstances that you won't
Speaker 3: see what's running it. So if you think, like if
Speaker 3: my internal mechanism, so part of mine is I'm not
Speaker 3: smart enough? Mhm, right, that's part of my internal mechanism.
Speaker 3: I'm a New York Times bestselling author and my internal
Speaker 3: mechanism is I'm not smart enough. So I had to
Speaker 3: really recognize what was a play in my life before
Speaker 3: I could ever even write a book. But that never
Speaker 3: goes away. It comes up, That shows up, and it
Speaker 3: starts to can influence my decisions and my thoughts if
Speaker 3: I don't take responsibility for it, because it'll it's again
Speaker 3: something from when I was a kid that I learned
Speaker 3: that I would now have to overcome to make it
Speaker 3: in this life. You get why it's there. It's more
Speaker 3: survival than they'd like to imagine. Yeah, but the background noise,
Speaker 3: it's not you, it's automatically what's there with you. Why
Speaker 3: you got moved by that is because you started to see,
Speaker 3: really see what that life has actually been like for you,
Speaker 3: the life of that noise. And that's what you have
Speaker 3: to start really understanding, like what you're sentencing yourself. It's
Speaker 3: not about finding the right person, it's about finally coming
Speaker 3: to terms whether one you've become. M hm, I as
Speaker 3: certains human beings can love anybody. I've got T shirts
Speaker 3: that I love, like authentically, I love it like I
Speaker 3: you know, I do, like I get objects, you know,
Speaker 3: like guitars, and you know, like I love that thing
Speaker 3: I do. And of course I love my wife and
Speaker 3: I love my children dearly. But at the same time,
Speaker 3: it was a struggle for me growing up was being
Speaker 3: able to say it, like I couldn't get a in
Speaker 3: math ins. I to reinvent myself in my forties to
Speaker 3: become a loving man, because if I looked at who
Speaker 3: had been like if you look in your relationship, you're
Speaker 3: being cynical, right, and you're being cynical a lot more
Speaker 3: than you think you are. And in those moments where
Speaker 3: you catch yourself being cynically, You're like, hold on, man,
Speaker 3: this is I want this to be a loving right now,
Speaker 3: I said i'd be loving, and I'm going to do
Speaker 3: I'm going to deal with this in a loving way,
Speaker 3: not a cynical way. You're already interrupting those patterns. You're
Speaker 3: already changing your pathway. And for me, when I when
Speaker 3: I when I really started to be taking myself home
Speaker 3: like that, it was expressing my love to people, taking
Speaker 3: the time look them in the eye and say I
Speaker 3: love you. And it was weird at the beginning, you know,
Speaker 3: it was weird as I felt as if somebody had
Speaker 3: taken over my body. No, it's gonna I know.
Speaker 2: It makes me practice hugs because I don't.
Speaker 3: Right, No, that's fine. To break down some of your
Speaker 3: default what and not going to feel the philosophy ontology,
Speaker 3: It kind of breaks down some of your default ways
Speaker 3: of being and acting, so you're actively breaking them down.
Speaker 3: Therapists call it cognitive behavioral therapy, but it's been around
Speaker 3: for about two thousand years. Anyway, Stoic stomics were doing it,
Speaker 3: but but behaving in ways that are more consistent with
Speaker 3: who you would say you are and the absence of
Speaker 3: the feelings for sure. So it it's doing in the
Speaker 3: absence of feeling. So some things I might feel cynical,
Speaker 3: but I catch myself like, oh, I'm doing that's thing
Speaker 3: that I get, and I'm about to make this relationship
Speaker 3: about that too. I'm going to love this person. And
Speaker 3: I might even say, listen, this is awkward for me.
Speaker 3: That is not I am not comfortable right now, and
Speaker 3: I think we should we should probably hug right, Like
Speaker 3: that's you dealing with yourself. Yeah, And by the way,
Speaker 3: if you start acknowledging things like that, that's one of
Speaker 3: the very few times in your day when you'll actually
Speaker 3: be being authentically you mm hm, instead of the you
Speaker 3: that you've kind of build up to try and make
Speaker 3: it in this life.
Speaker 4: I have like one last question that just came from
Speaker 4: you know, me saying that I didn't feel safe when
Speaker 4: I look back on my relationship with Max's husband or
Speaker 4: any relationship that was really my longer ones that they
Speaker 4: were all abusive and I was so unsafe in those
Speaker 4: and the other ones I pushed away.
Speaker 3: So what is that is that, like you have to
Speaker 3: you have to prove it true there justify to justify
Speaker 3: your centicism.
Speaker 4: Ye, there you go.
Speaker 3: Wow, you have to prove it as accurate. Then you
Speaker 3: can justify being independent.
Speaker 4: Ye. I know you're going to hit me because I'm
Speaker 4: not saying.
Speaker 3: Here we go again, this is why I'm independent, senecal.
Speaker 3: So ultimately, that's kind of like what all human beings
Speaker 3: are driven to do is to prove what you've subconsciously
Speaker 3: concluded to be true. So they prove it and then
Speaker 3: they overcome it, and then they prove it, and then
Speaker 3: they overcome it, and then they prove it and overcome it,
Speaker 3: and they prove it, they overcome and then they can
Speaker 3: die yep, God, and then they call it a life.
Speaker 3: Until you nead so many my books and you're like,
Speaker 3: what the what am I doing? Stop? I want to
Speaker 3: go off. This is BS. I want to do something else.
Speaker 3: I want to be somebody else. And I say, you
Speaker 3: can be somebody else. You can actually be someone else,
Speaker 3: but you have to fully see, acknowledge and take responsibility
Speaker 3: for who you've been.
Speaker 4: Come first, damn Gary tricking laying the gaun.
Speaker 2: I just I am obsessed with you.
Speaker 4: Thank you, it's so much. I'm going to read Loves
Speaker 4: and every other book right now. I'm going on Amazon immediately,
Speaker 4: and so is everyone that's listening right now. Awesome, But
Speaker 4: thank you. I appreciate your words and I appreciate you
Speaker 4: grounding this conversation.
Speaker 2: So thank you.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're welcome, And I just want to thank you
Speaker 3: for your generous in sharing yourself with so many people,
Speaker 3: because you know, when somebody does that, when you kind
Speaker 3: of get a vulnerable it makes a difference for lots
Speaker 3: of people. And so you can sit there knowing that
Speaker 3: you got a load of something for yourself. But at
Speaker 3: the same time, like you should know that there's people
Speaker 3: out there who just got rocked by what you shared
Speaker 3: and how you shared it, and you're inspiring people to
Speaker 3: take themselves on and change their own life. And you
Speaker 3: know that takes a lot, you know, because in this
Speaker 3: format and doing what we do right, there's a lot
Speaker 3: of looking good and there's a lot of like, you know,
Speaker 3: having to keep your together and and I say, for Black,
Speaker 3: you know, like admitting you don't have your together is
Speaker 3: the new having your together.
Speaker 4: Amen that Gary, Well, thank you so much, Mabe. I
Speaker 4: appreciate it, and we'll have you back.
Speaker 2: On for sure.
Speaker 3: So thank you, welcome, Thanks for having me.
Speaker 4: Okanks, all right, bye, Gary, I'll work on my accents,
Speaker 4: don't worry.
Speaker 2: Thank you, By my god, Wow, I love him.
Speaker 4: My kind of like just therapist, like, oh I loved it.
Speaker 4: I just like because I had to prove it over
Speaker 4: and over that I wasn't safe.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it's like you that is true.
Speaker 2: You had to prove it true.
Speaker 4: And then I'm like, yeah, wow, because we've.
Speaker 5: Always kind of wondered like what is that? Like why
Speaker 5: does that happen?
Speaker 3: Yeah?
Speaker 2: And it's wow.
Speaker 5: I just like how it is because I'm trying to
Speaker 5: go that way in therapy anyway now. But it's like
Speaker 5: really just looking at yourself, not why are things in
Speaker 5: this relationship doing this?
Speaker 3: Why?
Speaker 5: Like, and that is just it's powerful because if you
Speaker 5: just own yourself and take care of yourself.
Speaker 4: And not what's Nick doing wrong or what's this person
Speaker 4: doing wrong?
Speaker 3: Or who you know?
Speaker 2: Yeah, and we're all cynical.
Speaker 5: Like when he said that, I was like, yeah, I
Speaker 5: know about myself.
Speaker 4: Yeah he rocked me.
Speaker 3: Rocked.
Speaker 4: I mean that was just but like, but now it
Speaker 4: makes sense why I chose those types of people over
Speaker 4: and over again, Like because I'm proving that I'm not
Speaker 4: safe anytime up Yep, I'm not safe.
Speaker 2: I told you, I told myself. Yeah wow, Jana, good job,
Speaker 2: you really proved it to yourself. Good on your girl,
Speaker 2: Yeah you too.
Speaker 4: Good All right, Well I'm just golblow my nose now,
Speaker 4: so I'll see you guys next week.
Speaker 3: An