WEBVTT - Sowing Seed Stories w/ Hudson Valley Seed Company 0:00:00.800 --> 0:00:04.000 Citizen Chef is a production of I Heart Radio. So 0:00:04.760 --> 0:00:07.280 you know it sounds like seeds can tell almost the 0:00:07.400 --> 0:00:15.360 entire human story. Oh yeah, Hi, I'm Tom. Click you 0:00:15.440 --> 0:00:18.400 and you're listening to Citizen Chef. Yeah, so my my 0:00:18.480 --> 0:00:21.160 interesting seeds kind of happened around five or six years ago. 0:00:21.200 --> 0:00:26.800 I actually started gardening, and um, obviously obviously go from gardening. 0:00:26.800 --> 0:00:29.520 I have like like twenty or so raised beds five 0:00:29.520 --> 0:00:31.720 by seven raised beds and kind of fell down that 0:00:31.800 --> 0:00:35.120 rabbit hole and really got into it, and um started 0:00:35.159 --> 0:00:37.120 looking at seed Catalogus. I used to joke around and 0:00:37.120 --> 0:00:38.479 I started looking at seed catalog with the way I 0:00:38.479 --> 0:00:42.440 looked at Playboy when I was fifteen. Um, it's just fascinating. Um, 0:00:42.440 --> 0:00:44.760 the amount of breeds and then the stories behind all 0:00:44.800 --> 0:00:48.800 these seeds. And this year were all talking about seeds. Seed. Yeah, 0:00:48.880 --> 0:00:51.680 we're talking about the seed shed. Um. What does seed 0:00:51.880 --> 0:00:57.160 shed do? So I'm Ken Green. I run a nonprofit 0:00:57.200 --> 0:01:01.320 called seed Shed, and I'm the founder and creative director 0:01:01.360 --> 0:01:05.039 of a seed company called Hutson Valley Seed Company. Seed 0:01:05.080 --> 0:01:09.680 Shed focuses on seed justice issues and so we work 0:01:09.760 --> 0:01:16.000 with communities, um that are facing challenges around their seed 0:01:16.120 --> 0:01:20.839 and we also do seed literacy education UM and work 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:27.000 to improve UH seed culture UM. That is people's understanding 0:01:27.000 --> 0:01:28.919 of seeds and the role of seeds in their lives. 0:01:28.959 --> 0:01:31.840 So let's start there. I guess people don't have a 0:01:31.840 --> 0:01:35.559 deep understanding of seed um. They don't understand I guess 0:01:35.560 --> 0:01:38.279 what it means to them. And so someone someone listening 0:01:38.280 --> 0:01:40.520 in today I would think like, well, why should I 0:01:40.560 --> 0:01:43.319 care about seeds? How do I interact with seeds? And 0:01:43.360 --> 0:01:45.760 what would you tell them? Well, you know, seeds are 0:01:45.800 --> 0:01:49.600 this invisible part of our lives that UM, we don't 0:01:49.720 --> 0:01:53.520 even think about day to day, but are affecting us 0:01:53.560 --> 0:01:57.600 day to day. They're an essential and yet invisible part 0:01:57.800 --> 0:02:01.360 of our everyday lives. UH. And when we think about 0:02:01.440 --> 0:02:05.080 some of the bigger issues that we're facing globally, seeds 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:08.320 many times are at the root of that, whether that's 0:02:08.360 --> 0:02:12.240 about how seeds are grown, how seeds are shared, how 0:02:12.320 --> 0:02:17.000 seeds are commodified UM. And so that's part of my 0:02:17.080 --> 0:02:20.000 work is how do we pull back that curtain and 0:02:20.080 --> 0:02:24.480 get people to understand UM where they intersect with seeds. 0:02:25.120 --> 0:02:27.480 You know, if people understood that four companies control about 0:02:27.520 --> 0:02:32.080 six of the seed UM, that would probably be alarming 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:34.360 and if they are alarmed by that, why should they 0:02:34.360 --> 0:02:36.520 be alarmed by that? Well, it's yeah, it's a really 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.919 interesting statistics. So there's a I'm not sure if we've 0:02:39.960 --> 0:02:43.200 seen the graphic that Phil Howard from ms YOU created 0:02:43.840 --> 0:02:48.000 that's called consolidation of seed resources, and so it shows 0:02:48.000 --> 0:02:50.960 how over time there's been a consolidation in the industry 0:02:51.600 --> 0:02:55.560 UM by fewer and fewer corporations controlling more and more 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:59.720 of the planet's commercial seed resources. So right now we 0:02:59.800 --> 0:03:05.160 have three multinational corporations UM really in control of the 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.280 bulk of seed resources on the planet UM and they're 0:03:08.320 --> 0:03:14.800 all pharmaceutical and biotech corporations. So that's concerning because you know, 0:03:14.840 --> 0:03:20.520 they're not nutrition focused or food access focused UM or 0:03:20.680 --> 0:03:24.880 thinking about you know, regional adaptation or climate change or 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:27.399 all of these issues that we're facing that are connected 0:03:27.400 --> 0:03:31.560 to seeds and our ability as communities to feed ourselves. 0:03:32.120 --> 0:03:36.200 They're focused on a very specific type of profit, which 0:03:36.280 --> 0:03:40.440 is either bundling UM seeds and seed breeding with pharmaceutical 0:03:40.480 --> 0:03:45.960 delivery or bundling seeds and seed breeding with chemical inputs UM. 0:03:46.040 --> 0:03:49.080 So you know, for many of us, we think that's 0:03:49.120 --> 0:03:54.240 not the right kind of folks to be controlling seeds 0:03:54.280 --> 0:03:56.600 and seed access and food and food access. Right, and 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.200 we're talking about the seeds that we're talking about is corn, 0:03:59.280 --> 0:04:03.120 soy uh, what else? I mean, We're not talking about 0:04:03.200 --> 0:04:06.080 you know, someone growing carrots in their garden. Yeah, But 0:04:06.720 --> 0:04:10.200 that's the thing. So that that graphic, the consolidation of 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:13.440 seed versus graphic. You know a lot of people look 0:04:13.480 --> 0:04:15.560 at and look at that and feel really alarmed, and 0:04:15.600 --> 0:04:18.440 there are reasons to feel really alarmed, But that graphic 0:04:18.480 --> 0:04:21.760 doesn't show all of the amazing, inspiring, good work that's 0:04:21.760 --> 0:04:27.400 happening within communities and small regional seed companies and seed 0:04:27.440 --> 0:04:32.000 nonprofits and seed advocacy organizations and community seed initiatives. There's 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:37.880 this whole entire landscape of seed happening UM, which recognized 0:04:38.080 --> 0:04:40.919 that we have this loss of genetic diversity and that 0:04:40.960 --> 0:04:44.960 there's something we can actually do about it by working together. 0:04:45.440 --> 0:04:48.480 And so more and more there's gardeners who are growing 0:04:48.560 --> 0:04:52.560 things that are not attached to that map UM. But 0:04:52.640 --> 0:04:55.719 it's still a very small percentage compared to the global 0:04:55.760 --> 0:05:00.000 seed industry. Because I think this was a quarter true 0:05:00.120 --> 0:05:02.800 to that good food comes from good seeds. Can you 0:05:02.800 --> 0:05:05.839 can you explain that what is a good seed? Wow? 0:05:06.120 --> 0:05:10.120 I mean that's a loaded question, and you know you're 0:05:10.160 --> 0:05:12.880 going to get different answers from different folks. For me, 0:05:13.480 --> 0:05:16.520 when I think about good seed, you have to think 0:05:16.520 --> 0:05:20.560 about all the interactions and interconnections of that seed. So 0:05:20.600 --> 0:05:24.400 where did that seed come from? Who grew it? How 0:05:24.440 --> 0:05:28.599 has it grown? How was it shared? Um? Who gets 0:05:28.640 --> 0:05:31.520 to tell that seed story? Is? Is it being told 0:05:31.560 --> 0:05:35.800 by the community? Um? That represents the origins of that seed? 0:05:36.240 --> 0:05:39.080 Or was that seed appropriated in some way at a 0:05:39.160 --> 0:05:42.599 certain time? Are stolen at a certain time? Uh? And 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.479 we're only hearing part of the story. So to me, 0:05:45.520 --> 0:05:48.599 a good seed is where you know, you know the story, 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:52.120 You have a respect and understanding of the origins of 0:05:52.160 --> 0:05:56.320 that variety. UM. And that the the system that that 0:05:56.360 --> 0:05:58.280 part that seed is part of. And what I mean 0:05:58.320 --> 0:06:00.680 by that is you know how who grew it, how 0:06:00.680 --> 0:06:03.520 it was grown, and how it was shared. That you 0:06:03.640 --> 0:06:06.279 feel like all of the people involved in that chain 0:06:06.600 --> 0:06:08.760 of sharing that seed hand to hand to hand to 0:06:08.760 --> 0:06:11.440 hand until it gets to your garden, that you feel 0:06:11.480 --> 0:06:15.160 good about all of those practices, um. And the values 0:06:15.240 --> 0:06:19.040 of those folks match your values And it doesn't always 0:06:19.320 --> 0:06:21.360 line up that well. You know, you do the best 0:06:21.400 --> 0:06:23.760 you can. But you know, even when we're looking at 0:06:23.960 --> 0:06:27.200 just you know, one piece of this, say organic, you 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:30.280 know that you want to have an organic garden, and 0:06:30.560 --> 0:06:33.760 you know treating the earth a certain way, uh through 0:06:33.839 --> 0:06:37.360 using organic practices is part of your values of of 0:06:37.520 --> 0:06:42.200 how you want to garden. Why aren't you buying certified 0:06:42.240 --> 0:06:45.240 organic seed? And people say, well, you know, I'm only 0:06:45.240 --> 0:06:48.799 worried about organic because you know, for things I'm putting 0:06:48.800 --> 0:06:51.880 in my body, things I'm eating. But of course organic 0:06:51.960 --> 0:06:54.560 is really a practice. So if you're buying seeds that 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:59.120 aren't certified organic or used you know, grown using organic practices, 0:06:59.680 --> 0:07:02.800 then you're actually supporting someone treating the earth in a 0:07:02.839 --> 0:07:05.720 way that isn't aligned with your values. But we can 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:08.240 look at race, we can look at gender, we can 0:07:08.279 --> 0:07:11.640 look at access, we can look at food justice, we 0:07:11.680 --> 0:07:14.200 can look at social justice, we can look at environmental justice, 0:07:14.240 --> 0:07:17.080 we can look at all of these different ways where 0:07:17.720 --> 0:07:20.480 that act of putting the seed into the soil and 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:25.840 growing it involved many, many, many people, not just for 0:07:25.960 --> 0:07:29.239 that particular seed. But you know, going back in history 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:34.200 and do all those values line up for you, And 0:07:34.280 --> 0:07:36.200 it's hard to know sometimes there's not a lot of 0:07:36.240 --> 0:07:41.000 transparency in the commercial seed industry. We'll be back with 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:46.360 more citizens Chef, take me through one of those stories. 0:07:46.360 --> 0:07:49.280 I mean, is there a particular seed or particularly breeder, 0:07:50.000 --> 0:07:52.480 uh that you want to highlight? You know, is there 0:07:52.520 --> 0:07:55.960 a seed in your catalog from Hutla Valley Seed Company 0:07:56.240 --> 0:07:58.920 that you can tell that story? I just love love 0:07:59.000 --> 0:08:02.160 to hear its story about one particular seed, one that 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:07.720 excites you. Um, give me sell me that seed. Yeah. Well, 0:08:07.880 --> 0:08:10.920 so there's so many different stories and different kinds of stories. 0:08:10.960 --> 0:08:15.320 One that I've been sharing more is about auto Phile 0:08:15.880 --> 0:08:21.040 flint corn. Okay, it's a I mean, the corn is 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:27.480 just gorgeous. The ears have this golden, rich, deep golden 0:08:27.480 --> 0:08:30.200 glow to glow to them. It's not just that sort 0:08:30.200 --> 0:08:32.200 of you think of like a yellow corn sort of 0:08:32.200 --> 0:08:35.240 that pail. It's there's you can tell, there's something special 0:08:35.280 --> 0:08:40.720 about it. And it makes the most amazing polenta, Like 0:08:40.800 --> 0:08:43.440 I have never had better polenta than is made from 0:08:43.559 --> 0:08:47.439 Auto Phile. And we carry that we being huts of 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:51.760 Valley Seed Company, we carry that in our catalog. Um, 0:08:51.800 --> 0:08:54.720 and we have been telling the story of that seed 0:08:54.840 --> 0:08:57.480 as it was past to us that it's an Italian 0:08:57.920 --> 0:09:04.520 heirloom variety that was developed in Italy, specifically for polenta Uh. 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.960 It was brought over here and given to someone who 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.920 gave it to someone else who I happened to know 0:09:11.120 --> 0:09:13.880 the farmer, and he gave it to us, and we've 0:09:13.920 --> 0:09:17.280 been doing our own selections to make sure it stays 0:09:17.320 --> 0:09:20.960 adapted to the Northeast. And we also have our own 0:09:20.960 --> 0:09:23.440 particular feelings about what the colors should be, and what 0:09:23.520 --> 0:09:25.840 the size should be, and what the texture should be 0:09:25.840 --> 0:09:28.640 when it's when it's ground. So we've been telling that 0:09:28.840 --> 0:09:32.880 story of this Italian heirloom. But then in my work 0:09:33.000 --> 0:09:39.320 with the nonprofit, the story totally changed, and so I 0:09:39.360 --> 0:09:43.960 was having a gathering. We work with the Aquasas Mohawk 0:09:44.559 --> 0:09:47.600 community in northern New York, in the indigenous community up 0:09:47.640 --> 0:09:51.600 near Canada, Yes, exactly. So we work with them, supporting 0:09:51.640 --> 0:09:55.040 them and growing some of their uh indigenous varieties that 0:09:55.080 --> 0:10:00.440 are disappearing. And they came down for an and we 0:10:00.440 --> 0:10:03.200 were cleaning seed together, and I wanted to give them 0:10:03.200 --> 0:10:05.800 a gift while they were here, and I gave them 0:10:05.880 --> 0:10:07.959 some ears of the Auto phile A And I'm telling 0:10:07.960 --> 0:10:12.240 them the story and my friend Rowan White, who's an 0:10:12.559 --> 0:10:16.600 indigenous seakeeper who runs the Indigenous SeaKeepers Network, was there 0:10:16.960 --> 0:10:19.880 and she looked at it and she said, this is 0:10:19.920 --> 0:10:25.560 our corn. This is eight row flint corn. This is 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:30.840 the corn of my people. And so, you know, these 0:10:30.880 --> 0:10:33.480 stories that are past us, you know what part of 0:10:33.520 --> 0:10:37.640 that story are we telling and retelling? We can go 0:10:37.760 --> 0:10:40.680 further back with these stories and really think, oh, yes, 0:10:40.760 --> 0:10:49.559 of course corn came from here European Uh. Colonists took 0:10:49.920 --> 0:10:52.960 many of those varieties back to Europe where they continued 0:10:53.040 --> 0:10:56.520 to change and be adapted and be selected, and then 0:10:56.559 --> 0:11:02.560 they came back with immigrants, um from those European communities. 0:11:03.000 --> 0:11:08.800 But there's this longer story here of sharing seeds between cultures. 0:11:09.360 --> 0:11:11.680 And so now you know, we had to go back 0:11:11.760 --> 0:11:14.000 and say, okay, we want to tell the full story 0:11:14.040 --> 0:11:17.280 of this variety and not just the latest story that 0:11:17.360 --> 0:11:21.280 was past us. All right, Does this particular variety express 0:11:21.280 --> 0:11:26.199 itself differently? Say in Italy? Are in in in New York? Uh? 0:11:26.240 --> 0:11:29.120 Sorry I couldn't there a regionality too, is there? Does 0:11:29.160 --> 0:11:32.880 this this particular seed express itself differently, say in Italy 0:11:33.040 --> 0:11:35.800 versus uh, you know New York State? Uh, is there 0:11:35.800 --> 0:11:37.679 a regionalities even though it's the same seed in the 0:11:37.720 --> 0:11:40.880 same variety, does it does it? Does it express itself 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.320 differently in different regions? It does better or worse than 0:11:43.360 --> 0:11:48.520 different regions? Yeah? Yeah, all varieties have some amount of 0:11:48.520 --> 0:11:53.360 of ability to be resilient and adapt to different areas. Um. 0:11:53.440 --> 0:11:56.640 But there's a varying degree. Corn happens to be very 0:11:56.679 --> 0:12:01.640 widely adaptable. Um. But like I said, when we got 0:12:01.640 --> 0:12:05.280 the corn um and started growing it, we saw things 0:12:05.320 --> 0:12:09.880 that we thought we could improve by doing selections in 0:12:09.920 --> 0:12:13.240 the field so that it would be more regionally adapted. 0:12:14.920 --> 0:12:18.680 All right, So when the average person hears, you know, heirloom, 0:12:18.679 --> 0:12:21.280 the word airloom, whether it's tomato or the other heirlooms, 0:12:21.520 --> 0:12:23.480 what what what does that mean? Which? What should they 0:12:23.520 --> 0:12:29.280 know about that word? Visa the particular variety of tomato 0:12:29.440 --> 0:12:33.160 are are you know p or something like? Yeah? A 0:12:33.240 --> 0:12:36.440 lot of misconception around that words. Yeah, and my my, 0:12:37.160 --> 0:12:39.160 it's almost used as a marketing word now it doesn't 0:12:39.160 --> 0:12:41.960 seem mean Yeah, it's changed so much over time, and 0:12:42.040 --> 0:12:44.840 my feelings about the value of the word have changed. 0:12:45.280 --> 0:12:50.120 When I first got involved in seeds, people like I 0:12:50.120 --> 0:12:52.120 would say heirloom seed, and people would be like, what 0:12:52.160 --> 0:12:55.720 does that mean? They had never heard something a plant 0:12:55.800 --> 0:13:00.280 called an heirloom before. UM. And when I first started 0:13:00.360 --> 0:13:02.760 using the term, what I really was trying to communicate 0:13:03.000 --> 0:13:08.760 was that there's more value to a seed than just 0:13:09.080 --> 0:13:12.560 its commodity value. You know, what, what am I going 0:13:12.600 --> 0:13:14.680 to harvest? How much am I going to harvest from 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:19.040 this plant? And just like when we passed down objects 0:13:19.520 --> 0:13:23.800 in a family from generation to generation, and that object 0:13:23.920 --> 0:13:28.040 may have a lot of cultural or sentimental or nostalgic 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.040 uh and family history value to it, but not actually 0:13:32.080 --> 0:13:34.559 be valuable, like if you try to sell it an 0:13:34.559 --> 0:13:38.560 eBay kind of thing. Um, it's a way of saying 0:13:38.679 --> 0:13:42.080 seeds are also passed down generation to generation, hand to 0:13:42.160 --> 0:13:45.040 hand that way, and that there's more value than just 0:13:45.200 --> 0:13:46.959 what is going to grow it. It comes with all 0:13:47.000 --> 0:13:51.679 of the history and all of these stories. So you know, 0:13:51.760 --> 0:13:55.520 it was a like a value, but it's really changed 0:13:55.600 --> 0:14:00.880 over time, um, how people are using it and UM. 0:14:00.920 --> 0:14:03.600 And also part of it for me was feeling that 0:14:05.200 --> 0:14:07.199 all of these stories, and this is related to the 0:14:07.240 --> 0:14:10.280 auto pheela, many of the stories that we're being told 0:14:10.280 --> 0:14:20.360 about heirlooms were specifically European UH stories UH. And many 0:14:20.400 --> 0:14:25.640 of the indigenous stories UM or diasporic stories of these 0:14:25.640 --> 0:14:29.200 seeds were not being told because they didn't fit into 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:35.800 people's idea of this sort of romantic heirloom UM. And 0:14:35.880 --> 0:14:39.120 so I don't use the term as much. The other 0:14:39.200 --> 0:14:43.360 limitation of it is people started getting confused. You know, 0:14:43.680 --> 0:14:46.840 some people think heirloom means organic, which you know, it 0:14:46.880 --> 0:14:49.760 doesn't have anything to do with the growing practices. Um. 0:14:49.840 --> 0:14:53.880 Some people just think of heirloom as like good um. 0:14:53.880 --> 0:15:00.440 And not all heirlooms are are amazing. So some are 0:15:00.560 --> 0:15:04.000 way better than anything else you can get. So it's 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:09.160 there's a limitation to it. And I also people started 0:15:09.280 --> 0:15:11.600 using it almost as a way of freezing things in 0:15:11.680 --> 0:15:15.000 time of saying like here's the history of this overcity, 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:19.120 let's preserve it. Um, Like what what actually preserves it? 0:15:19.120 --> 0:15:22.480 Preserves diversity? I mean, if we only grew one tomato, 0:15:22.520 --> 0:15:24.520 I never want to be boring as hell. But number two, 0:15:24.920 --> 0:15:28.080 if if there was something that was that was particular 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:32.240 pest are bacteria that was affecting that one particular tomato, 0:15:32.280 --> 0:15:36.000 we can lose tomato. Yeah, I mean I guess I 0:15:36.000 --> 0:15:39.000 can be simplifying things obviously, but but how important is 0:15:39.000 --> 0:15:43.000 that diversity in in in seeds? Yeah, I mean heirloom. Really, 0:15:43.080 --> 0:15:45.600 that term, once it caught on, really did help people 0:15:45.600 --> 0:15:49.360 think about genetic diversity and the importance of having lots 0:15:49.400 --> 0:15:52.440 and lots of different varieties with different tastes and different 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:57.360 adaptations and different colors and different histories. It really helped 0:15:57.600 --> 0:16:02.560 UM spur this whole movement around diversity. But we want 0:16:02.560 --> 0:16:07.640 to continue to increase that diversity, not just like you know, oh, 0:16:07.720 --> 0:16:09.800 this is all we have left, just like freeze everything 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:14.880 in time. There's so much work being done to increased diversity, 0:16:15.000 --> 0:16:18.640 to create new varieties UM. And there's very ethical and 0:16:18.680 --> 0:16:21.760 responsible ways to do that, and there's unethical and irresponsible 0:16:21.800 --> 0:16:25.720 ways to do that UM. And so you know, I 0:16:25.800 --> 0:16:30.040 like thinking about the heirlooms of tomorrow. What varieties are 0:16:30.080 --> 0:16:34.720 we creating today that sixty hundred years from now someone 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:38.040 will be like, this is an heirloom variety that's worth 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:42.680 hanging on to um and tells the story, tell the 0:16:42.800 --> 0:16:46.920 story of that, right, and the honey nuts, the honey 0:16:46.960 --> 0:16:49.960 nut squash comes to mind, which is kind of a 0:16:49.960 --> 0:16:52.440 new type squash. Yeah, if it is something, do I 0:16:52.440 --> 0:16:55.160 have my do I have my my, Do I have 0:16:55.240 --> 0:16:56.960 that right? It's it was a new a new breed 0:16:56.960 --> 0:17:01.080 of squash that was produced by Michael ms Eric. Yeah, 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:05.440 so that's a yeah, yeah, that's a really that's a 0:17:05.480 --> 0:17:07.880 story I've been working on for a little while now. 0:17:08.480 --> 0:17:11.720 Um and again, like the auto phile a, people are 0:17:11.720 --> 0:17:16.720 telling you know, the latest slice, most recent slice of 0:17:16.760 --> 0:17:22.320 that story. Um. You know it's being popularized by the 0:17:22.440 --> 0:17:28.000 use of celebrity and a specific breeder at Cornell. Just 0:17:28.040 --> 0:17:30.280 to just give the background of Cellar being Dan Barber, 0:17:30.680 --> 0:17:35.040 chef who was uh it is considered one of the 0:17:35.119 --> 0:17:38.080 best restaurants in the world, and this is uh sort 0:17:38.080 --> 0:17:40.600 of his mission was to look at the way uh 0:17:41.080 --> 0:17:44.640 plant breeders were breeding for traits that weren't necessarily making 0:17:44.640 --> 0:17:47.720 food delicious, but we're used for other reasons and so 0:17:47.840 --> 0:17:51.320 that's that's UH. I just wanted a little background on that, right. Um. 0:17:51.359 --> 0:17:55.040 When you talk about ethics, ethics in in uh creating 0:17:56.280 --> 0:18:00.240 new hybrid what what are the ethics behind that or 0:18:00.240 --> 0:18:03.000 where should they be? What are your ethics? Well, I 0:18:03.000 --> 0:18:05.520 mean the honey nut is a good example of sort 0:18:05.560 --> 0:18:10.119 of thinking about a certain part of ethics, um, which 0:18:10.160 --> 0:18:12.679 is you know, who gets credit, who gets to take credit? 0:18:13.880 --> 0:18:18.399 And looking at honey nut, you know, very close, you know, 0:18:18.520 --> 0:18:22.320 not very far behind. Michael Mazourik's breeder at Cornell is 0:18:22.359 --> 0:18:25.879 Molly John who started that whole breeding project which was 0:18:25.920 --> 0:18:29.800 actually a participatory project, UM that involved a lot of people, 0:18:30.000 --> 0:18:32.400 you know, creating that variety. And then if we look 0:18:32.440 --> 0:18:36.600 behind that, we actually see that there's breeding lines from 0:18:36.800 --> 0:18:43.040 indigenous communities, from Turkey, from the Sephardic people. Um. You know, 0:18:43.080 --> 0:18:46.879 there's all these other stories that are not being told. UM. 0:18:46.920 --> 0:18:49.199 And it's interesting, you know when we look at it 0:18:49.240 --> 0:18:53.119 and the most recent story being told is um, you know, 0:18:53.880 --> 0:18:58.040 from white men. UM, when there's women and people of 0:18:58.080 --> 0:19:01.639 color and indigenous communities that are all part of that story. 0:19:01.880 --> 0:19:06.040 And why isn't that being told? Um? But in terms 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:09.680 of hybrids, a lot of people want to set up this. 0:19:10.160 --> 0:19:12.720 You know, open pollinated is good and hybrid is bad. 0:19:14.200 --> 0:19:18.600 Open pollinated being a variety that if you know what 0:19:18.640 --> 0:19:20.639 you're doing as a seed saver, you can grow it. 0:19:21.280 --> 0:19:24.040 You can save seeds, you can plant them again and 0:19:24.119 --> 0:19:25.879 it will grow true to type. It will grow the 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.760 same plant, the same fruit, the same taste, the same 0:19:29.880 --> 0:19:33.320 days to maturity all of that, Whereas a hybrid is 0:19:33.359 --> 0:19:37.280 something that was created using you know, very specifically bred 0:19:37.320 --> 0:19:40.240 parent lines that are then crossed to create a first 0:19:40.240 --> 0:19:44.840 generation offspring which has the specific traits that the breeder 0:19:45.040 --> 0:19:49.320 was looking for. Uh, And if you save seeds from that, 0:19:49.400 --> 0:19:52.280 it reverts back to random characteristics of the parent plant. 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.199 So you've taken away that kind of ability to have independence. Right, 0:19:57.240 --> 0:19:58.680 So if you were if you were to save those 0:19:58.680 --> 0:20:00.600 seeds as a farmer, as a garden shave those seeds 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.240 and plants on the following year, you're not going to 0:20:02.280 --> 0:20:04.919 get the same right, the same food direction. So it 0:20:04.920 --> 0:20:08.040 creates a dependence on the commercial seed source. But that 0:20:08.080 --> 0:20:11.000 commercial seed source also put a lot of resources into 0:20:11.040 --> 0:20:14.520 creating something that potentially is going to perform really well 0:20:14.560 --> 0:20:17.920 for you on your farm. So it's not on average 0:20:18.320 --> 0:20:20.720 on yeah, on average, how long does a breeder work 0:20:20.760 --> 0:20:25.359 on that particular breed that hybrids on average? Yeah, it 0:20:25.640 --> 0:20:28.040 sort of depends on what, you know, what part of 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:32.720 that process you want to stop the time clock on um, 0:20:32.760 --> 0:20:38.280 but it can be a few years to a decade 0:20:38.680 --> 0:20:43.720 or more um depending on the plant family and depending 0:20:43.760 --> 0:20:47.840 on the traits that they're actually working on UM and 0:20:47.880 --> 0:20:52.200 also the processes that they're using UM. Whether there's more 0:20:52.840 --> 0:20:57.040 technologically drifven processes UM for creating that like being able 0:20:57.040 --> 0:20:59.879 to map out the genetics and UM you know, pin 0:21:00.080 --> 0:21:04.359 point um genes and processes to create traits, or if 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:08.359 you're doing it more through selection and growing large populations 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:13.160 and so it really depends on the process and what 0:21:13.240 --> 0:21:17.080 tools you have access to and what traits you're trying 0:21:17.119 --> 0:21:26.200 to change or improve. It's sort of like the concept 0:21:26.280 --> 0:21:31.040 of seed sovereignty UM. I think we hear that thrown 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:33.120 around a lot. What what does what does that mean 0:21:33.119 --> 0:21:35.840 to you? I mean, there's food sovereignty, this idea that 0:21:36.040 --> 0:21:39.240 the people who produce food UM, who are toiling in 0:21:39.280 --> 0:21:42.960 the fields should have more control over that that that 0:21:43.119 --> 0:21:46.600 process have seed sovereignty work into that as well. Yeah, 0:21:46.640 --> 0:21:49.200 so there's a whole bunch of terms that seed shed 0:21:50.160 --> 0:21:54.280 the nonprofit that I run have we've been really trying 0:21:54.320 --> 0:21:59.359 to dig into seed ethics, seed justice, and seed sovereignty. 0:22:00.560 --> 0:22:05.680 There is no hard and fast definition, I would say 0:22:05.760 --> 0:22:11.240 right now, what we're looking at and thinking about is 0:22:12.600 --> 0:22:17.040 what do communities need to grow towards seed sovereignty? With 0:22:17.119 --> 0:22:21.000 seed sovereignty being a goal of canna see can a 0:22:21.080 --> 0:22:30.520 community actually manage its own seed source using the cultural 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:35.800 values of that community? UM? So that can look different 0:22:35.840 --> 0:22:38.520 depending on what type of community that we're looking at, 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:44.200 but it would require setting up seeds systems within that community, 0:22:44.800 --> 0:22:49.880 UM that give that community independence in what varieties are 0:22:49.920 --> 0:22:53.840 they growing and saving seed from? What are the practices 0:22:53.920 --> 0:22:56.240 that are being used to grow and save those seeds, 0:22:56.280 --> 0:22:58.040 and what are the systems that are in place for 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:04.280 sharing those seeds within that community. It's fascinating, UM. I 0:23:04.720 --> 0:23:08.280 guess before before we leave ums, the last question is 0:23:08.840 --> 0:23:12.360 started out by asking this question why should people care um? 0:23:12.400 --> 0:23:14.720 And how they how would they interact with this and so? 0:23:15.480 --> 0:23:20.240 UM the average person whether they're shopping at a supermarket 0:23:20.320 --> 0:23:23.640 are I mean you think about chefs that are writing menus, 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:25.879 what should they be focused on? Should they be focused 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:28.760 on the because I started thinking about this a lot recently. 0:23:29.040 --> 0:23:31.679 Should we start talking about the variety of that character 0:23:31.800 --> 0:23:35.280 that squash are? Are that p as opposed to just 0:23:35.840 --> 0:23:38.399 well it's a leak? What what kind of leak is it? 0:23:38.440 --> 0:23:40.760 And should should that be on menus? And and is 0:23:40.800 --> 0:23:44.159 that a way to sort of get the idea across 0:23:44.280 --> 0:23:47.719 that that it's it's the varieties are so much more 0:23:47.760 --> 0:23:51.280 important than the actual you know, vegetal itself. Yeah, when 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:54.920 I so part of se Chaid, we do see literacy education, 0:23:56.040 --> 0:24:01.800 and I've gone to restaurants and done he literacy education 0:24:02.080 --> 0:24:06.280 in the restaurant with the chefs and the cooks and 0:24:06.320 --> 0:24:10.280 the servers and everyone who works there to really talk 0:24:10.280 --> 0:24:15.119 about where do seeds come from? What kind of choice 0:24:15.160 --> 0:24:19.199 do you really have in terms of varieties, what do 0:24:19.280 --> 0:24:23.359 those choices limit in terms of what you're able to 0:24:23.400 --> 0:24:27.159 serve people? And what is the value of putting the 0:24:27.280 --> 0:24:30.880 name of the variety on your menu instead of just broccoli? 0:24:32.280 --> 0:24:34.840 Because there's so many different kinds of broccoli, and there 0:24:34.880 --> 0:24:37.840 are differences between all of them, and there's different histories 0:24:37.840 --> 0:24:41.120 and stories that come with them. So you're sharing that 0:24:41.200 --> 0:24:44.679 story just as much as you're sharing the flavor. The 0:24:44.760 --> 0:24:48.119 story is coming through that. So Yeah, my fantasy world 0:24:48.160 --> 0:24:53.840 absolutely menus of the names of varieties on them uh 0:24:53.880 --> 0:25:00.040 as just a regular practice, uh for sure. Um. And 0:25:00.080 --> 0:25:06.119 I think that the other piece to me, that the 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:08.160 other part of your question to me, you know, why 0:25:08.200 --> 0:25:12.640 should people care about seeds? And sometimes it's really hard 0:25:12.720 --> 0:25:15.560 to just talk about it and get people to care. 0:25:16.040 --> 0:25:19.359 When we do seed saving workshops or when I do 0:25:19.440 --> 0:25:23.560 see literacy education, and I get people touching seeds and 0:25:23.600 --> 0:25:26.960 looking at the seeds and having a sensory experience with 0:25:27.040 --> 0:25:30.679