1 00:00:05,720 --> 00:00:08,119 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your mind. My name 2 00:00:08,160 --> 00:00:11,400 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday. 3 00:00:11,440 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 1: Time to go into the Vault for an older episode. 4 00:00:13,880 --> 00:00:19,520 Speaker 1: This one originally aired on August. It is part four 5 00:00:19,560 --> 00:00:22,400 Speaker 1: of our series on the Mirror. But hey, you know 6 00:00:22,400 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: what it is today. Actually we were at the beginning 7 00:00:25,239 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: of the month of October. So while you got mirrors 8 00:00:27,800 --> 00:00:29,680 Speaker 1: on the brain, why not do one of those creepy 9 00:00:29,680 --> 00:00:31,480 Speaker 1: games where you say something in a mirror makes some 10 00:00:31,560 --> 00:00:35,479 Speaker 1: kind of monster ghost pop out. Yeah. I feel like 11 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: this is it's fitting that we're finishing up the Vault 12 00:00:38,640 --> 00:00:42,960 Speaker 1: episodes about the Mirror as we venture into October, because 13 00:00:43,159 --> 00:00:45,200 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of stuff with mirrors, as we've 14 00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:48,239 Speaker 1: discussed in these episodes that's a little uncanny, and of 15 00:00:48,280 --> 00:00:52,559 Speaker 1: course we have all these additional supernatural ideas about the 16 00:00:52,600 --> 00:00:55,000 Speaker 1: mirror that's still resonate with us. You know, I think 17 00:00:55,040 --> 00:00:57,480 Speaker 1: they should have more mundane versions of those games. It's 18 00:00:57,480 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: always like you say somebody's name in the mirror and 19 00:00:59,640 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: they appear, or and they at least scare you, maybe 20 00:01:01,880 --> 00:01:04,919 Speaker 1: they kill you or whatever. It instead should just be you, 21 00:01:04,920 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: you say the ghost's name. And then you notice a 22 00:01:07,240 --> 00:01:09,440 Speaker 1: pimple on your face you never saw before. You notice 23 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,800 Speaker 1: spinach in your teeth. It should be mirror related. So 24 00:01:12,920 --> 00:01:14,920 Speaker 1: it is the ghost putting spinach in your teeth in 25 00:01:14,959 --> 00:01:17,480 Speaker 1: the scenario I get, Yeah, maybe I didn't think this 26 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:20,400 Speaker 1: through the mirror is haunted, and the mirror will always 27 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:23,000 Speaker 1: make sure that there's spinach in your teeth. It seems 28 00:01:23,040 --> 00:01:25,319 Speaker 1: like a good idea until I said it. Yes, no, okay, 29 00:01:25,440 --> 00:01:28,919 Speaker 1: let's embrace it. The ghost is literally going into your mouth, invisibly, 30 00:01:28,959 --> 00:01:30,959 Speaker 1: reaching in there and putting a bit of spinach in 31 00:01:31,040 --> 00:01:34,600 Speaker 1: between the front two choppers. There you go, So is 32 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,000 Speaker 1: this This is digestible spinach. So if you were trapped 33 00:01:37,000 --> 00:01:39,640 Speaker 1: in a room with this mirror, you could sustain yourself 34 00:01:39,800 --> 00:01:44,480 Speaker 1: on ghost given spinach bits. There you go, infinite nutrition, yes, alright, 35 00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:49,480 Speaker 1: and broccoli florets and the incisors yep, alright, it rights itself. Okay, 36 00:01:49,560 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: let's let's jump right in. Welcome to Stuff to Blow 37 00:01:55,200 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 1: Your Mind, a production of My Heart Radio. Hey, welcome 38 00:02:04,720 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name is Robert Lamb, 39 00:02:07,880 --> 00:02:10,360 Speaker 1: and I'm Joe McCormick, and we're back with part four 40 00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:12,880 Speaker 1: of our series about mirrors. I didn't think we would 41 00:02:12,880 --> 00:02:14,839 Speaker 1: get this far, but this is one of those where 42 00:02:14,840 --> 00:02:17,160 Speaker 1: there's there's a lot of different alleys to run down 43 00:02:17,200 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: as we make our way along the the historical track. 44 00:02:20,720 --> 00:02:22,880 Speaker 1: But today I guess we're gonna be talking about glass 45 00:02:22,960 --> 00:02:25,799 Speaker 1: mirrors more than we did in some of the previous episodes. 46 00:02:25,880 --> 00:02:29,000 Speaker 1: But to do a brief recap of some of the 47 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:32,920 Speaker 1: the technological milestones along the history of mirrors, we we have, 48 00:02:33,040 --> 00:02:36,640 Speaker 1: of course obsidian mirrors that have been made since prehistory. 49 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,160 Speaker 1: Examples found of these go as far back as like 50 00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:44,239 Speaker 1: six thousand BC and Anatolia associated with the prehistoric Proto 51 00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:48,040 Speaker 1: city of Chattahoyak, and then beginning around the fourth and 52 00:02:48,240 --> 00:02:52,120 Speaker 1: third millennium b CE, find evidence of metal mirrors mostly 53 00:02:52,160 --> 00:02:56,600 Speaker 1: based on copper and copper alloys like bronze in Egypt 54 00:02:56,600 --> 00:03:00,160 Speaker 1: and Mesopotamia, and of course later mirrors will be made 55 00:03:00,200 --> 00:03:03,040 Speaker 1: out of other metals like silver. Silver's a common choice 56 00:03:03,040 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 1: in the Roman Empire um and by the second millennium 57 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:10,520 Speaker 1: b C, it seems like metal mirrors proliferate and are 58 00:03:10,560 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: found in many settled societies all around the world. Now, 59 00:03:14,400 --> 00:03:17,280 Speaker 1: before we get in more into a discussion of glass mirror. 60 00:03:17,280 --> 00:03:20,400 Speaker 1: I want to discuss some things that I read in 61 00:03:20,400 --> 00:03:23,120 Speaker 1: in the book Mirror Mirror by Mark Pendergrass, which is 62 00:03:23,440 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 1: a wonderful text on the history of the mirror, very readable, UH. 63 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,280 Speaker 1: In it, he discusses Chinese mirrors at length, and I 64 00:03:30,280 --> 00:03:32,480 Speaker 1: wanted to share a few things that we didn't discuss 65 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: previously for starters. According to Pendagrass, some of the earliest 66 00:03:37,160 --> 00:03:40,080 Speaker 1: Chinese mirrors, in addition to being made out of some 67 00:03:40,120 --> 00:03:42,480 Speaker 1: of these other materials we already mentioned, were also made 68 00:03:42,480 --> 00:03:45,880 Speaker 1: out of polished jade, which is very fascinating to uh 69 00:03:45,960 --> 00:03:47,920 Speaker 1: to imagine. I wasn't able to find an image of 70 00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:50,040 Speaker 1: what this would have looked like, but I guess if 71 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,800 Speaker 1: if anyone was capable of of polishing jade to the 72 00:03:54,120 --> 00:03:56,120 Speaker 1: level that it could be used as a reflective surface, 73 00:03:56,120 --> 00:03:58,600 Speaker 1: it would be the ancient Chinese, who were, you know, 74 00:03:58,800 --> 00:04:01,640 Speaker 1: very advanced with the use of jade. I don't know, 75 00:04:01,680 --> 00:04:05,280 Speaker 1: but I imagine that would have um some some similarities 76 00:04:05,400 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: with with obsidian as a mirror, because it would provide 77 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,160 Speaker 1: a sort of reflection of outlines, but it would probably 78 00:04:12,200 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 1: offer a kind of inverted or distorted color scheme behind things. Yeah. 79 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,960 Speaker 1: Now in uh. Also, Pendergrass mentions that mirrors were often 80 00:04:21,080 --> 00:04:23,600 Speaker 1: entombed with the dead, and in one Chinese tumb I 81 00:04:23,600 --> 00:04:26,919 Speaker 1: think from the third century BC, the corpse's head was 82 00:04:27,000 --> 00:04:30,520 Speaker 1: quote equipped with a wooden box covered with metal mirrors 83 00:04:30,560 --> 00:04:35,839 Speaker 1: on the inside. Just fascinating. You'll also find heart protecting 84 00:04:35,880 --> 00:04:38,640 Speaker 1: mirrors that were sometimes placed on a dead person's chest 85 00:04:39,600 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: and uh. And then he goes on to mention a 86 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,760 Speaker 1: couple of other mirrors, one that's definitely magical and a 87 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: and a item of mythology, and the other one, uh, 88 00:04:48,800 --> 00:04:51,600 Speaker 1: you know, one can ask questions about. So he describes 89 00:04:51,880 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 1: something called the the chow kou paw, which is the 90 00:04:55,279 --> 00:04:58,520 Speaker 1: quote precious mirror that would illuminate the bones of the body, 91 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,240 Speaker 1: which was said to allow people to see not only 92 00:05:01,240 --> 00:05:05,160 Speaker 1: the reflection, but to see their interior organs and to 93 00:05:05,320 --> 00:05:09,360 Speaker 1: cleanse their innerds uh through some means that they he 94 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:11,920 Speaker 1: didn't have details on. And one of these was said 95 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:13,720 Speaker 1: to be kept in a in a grotto in a 96 00:05:13,720 --> 00:05:16,240 Speaker 1: cliff face, and it was said to be tin square 97 00:05:16,279 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: feet in size, so, you know, pretty enormous for a 98 00:05:18,960 --> 00:05:22,640 Speaker 1: mirror and could reflect the five viscera of a human being. 99 00:05:24,000 --> 00:05:27,600 Speaker 1: That's so interesting, and it parallels some other things we've 100 00:05:27,600 --> 00:05:30,920 Speaker 1: talked about, you know, uh, a mystical traditions about mirrors, 101 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:35,360 Speaker 1: that they could somehow reflect the true self or reflect 102 00:05:35,520 --> 00:05:38,240 Speaker 1: something about an image that could not be seen under 103 00:05:38,279 --> 00:05:41,360 Speaker 1: normal conditions. And I wonder, like, why is this a 104 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,680 Speaker 1: common thing to believe about mirrors, because it's literally not 105 00:05:44,800 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: true about them. You know that they're like that. They 106 00:05:47,200 --> 00:05:51,479 Speaker 1: literally just pretty objectively reflect light in the same way 107 00:05:51,520 --> 00:05:53,279 Speaker 1: that you would see it with your eyes when looking 108 00:05:53,320 --> 00:05:56,599 Speaker 1: at something, except of course reversed if they're flat, or 109 00:05:56,760 --> 00:05:59,159 Speaker 1: you know, with some kind of distortions, if their convex 110 00:05:59,279 --> 00:06:02,919 Speaker 1: or concave. Yeah. Uh. And now another mirror that he 111 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,720 Speaker 1: mentions was the the toe Quang chain, which was said 112 00:06:07,720 --> 00:06:10,960 Speaker 1: to cast a reflection. That quote showed the image on 113 00:06:11,000 --> 00:06:13,360 Speaker 1: the back as in the back of the mirror, as 114 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:16,360 Speaker 1: if the light had penetrated the metal, and he writes 115 00:06:16,440 --> 00:06:19,640 Speaker 1: that this might have been due to a polishing technique 116 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,960 Speaker 1: that quote caused imperceptible irregularities on the mirror surface that 117 00:06:24,120 --> 00:06:28,000 Speaker 1: corresponded to the raised pictures on the back. So again, 118 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:30,640 Speaker 1: this would have been a metal mirror, but there would 119 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:32,320 Speaker 1: be a back to it in the same way that 120 00:06:32,360 --> 00:06:35,560 Speaker 1: we discussed the Chinese mirrors previously. We have some sort 121 00:06:35,560 --> 00:06:39,800 Speaker 1: of illustration a deity, uh uh, some sort of representation 122 00:06:39,800 --> 00:06:42,719 Speaker 1: of an animal or a mythological creature. And so the 123 00:06:42,760 --> 00:06:44,560 Speaker 1: idea here is that there would be some sort of 124 00:06:44,600 --> 00:06:48,840 Speaker 1: imperfections in the metal that would that would match up 125 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:51,640 Speaker 1: with that illustration on the back of the mirror, and 126 00:06:51,760 --> 00:06:54,440 Speaker 1: that this would be you know, at least a unique effect. 127 00:06:54,760 --> 00:06:57,279 Speaker 1: Oh I see. So maybe like the distortions in the 128 00:06:57,400 --> 00:07:00,400 Speaker 1: reflective surface caused by the decoration on the back could 129 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:04,480 Speaker 1: also in some way bring the suggestion of the image 130 00:07:04,480 --> 00:07:07,080 Speaker 1: on the back into your own reflection when you looked 131 00:07:07,120 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: into it. Yeah. Um, that's interesting because it sort of 132 00:07:11,240 --> 00:07:13,880 Speaker 1: pairs with something I was reading about. So I was 133 00:07:13,880 --> 00:07:18,440 Speaker 1: reading a Cabinet magazine article from the year two thousand 134 00:07:18,480 --> 00:07:21,640 Speaker 1: four written by a guy named Josiah mcelhaney, who is 135 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,280 Speaker 1: a glassblower actually like a glass artist, and I was 136 00:07:25,320 --> 00:07:28,960 Speaker 1: just writing some about how the the history of mirrors 137 00:07:29,000 --> 00:07:33,840 Speaker 1: has sort of developed alongside people's changing perceptions of the self. 138 00:07:33,960 --> 00:07:36,240 Speaker 1: And this is something we've talked about a little bit 139 00:07:36,240 --> 00:07:38,960 Speaker 1: in previous episodes. And one of the things he mentions 140 00:07:39,280 --> 00:07:43,880 Speaker 1: is the development of mirrors, especially saying like eighteenth century 141 00:07:43,920 --> 00:07:47,880 Speaker 1: Europe that had a lot of decorative flourishes on the 142 00:07:47,920 --> 00:07:50,120 Speaker 1: reflecting side. You know, we we've talked about a lot 143 00:07:50,120 --> 00:07:54,400 Speaker 1: of mirrors that had decorations or carvings, engravings of deities 144 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,840 Speaker 1: or wishes of good luck or something on the back side, 145 00:07:56,840 --> 00:07:59,480 Speaker 1: and then just the plain reflective surface on on the 146 00:07:59,720 --> 00:08:02,520 Speaker 1: side that would be used. But here this is combining 147 00:08:02,560 --> 00:08:06,280 Speaker 1: the two. It's putting you know, maybe a floral arrangement 148 00:08:06,480 --> 00:08:10,320 Speaker 1: or or like etchings of something, you know, like cherubs 149 00:08:10,440 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: or something on the part that's reflecting you. So it's 150 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:16,920 Speaker 1: sort of like placing your own image within a context, 151 00:08:17,000 --> 00:08:20,320 Speaker 1: maybe a context of beauty or a context of holiness. 152 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:24,000 Speaker 1: So we've already covered the metal mirror quite a bit, 153 00:08:24,040 --> 00:08:26,520 Speaker 1: but that at this point you're probably wondering what about 154 00:08:26,520 --> 00:08:28,520 Speaker 1: the glass variant that most of us are used to. 155 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: And I think some listeners were actually had actually written 156 00:08:32,000 --> 00:08:34,360 Speaker 1: in about this and said, hey, you guys started these 157 00:08:34,360 --> 00:08:35,880 Speaker 1: series about the invention of the mirror, When are you 158 00:08:35,920 --> 00:08:37,720 Speaker 1: gonna get to the invention of the mirror that we 159 00:08:38,440 --> 00:08:42,600 Speaker 1: that we all encounter on a daily basis. Um Well, 160 00:08:42,720 --> 00:08:45,840 Speaker 1: the first glass mirrors seem to have emerged during the 161 00:08:45,840 --> 00:08:50,000 Speaker 1: third century C. They were quite small, concave or convex 162 00:08:50,080 --> 00:08:54,400 Speaker 1: metal surfaces with glass coatings. Glass mirrors have been uncovered 163 00:08:54,400 --> 00:08:57,840 Speaker 1: in digs dating back to this century. Yeah. Well, actually, 164 00:08:57,840 --> 00:08:59,200 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess if you want to be really 165 00:08:59,280 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: pedantic about it, you could say that the very first 166 00:09:01,920 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: mirrors were glass mirrors, because obsidian is a natural form 167 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,760 Speaker 1: of volcanic glass. But clearly what people mean when they 168 00:09:07,800 --> 00:09:10,559 Speaker 1: say glass mirrors is the kind where used to today 169 00:09:10,600 --> 00:09:14,200 Speaker 1: that has a it has a thin pain of clear, 170 00:09:14,400 --> 00:09:17,280 Speaker 1: very clear, very flat glass, and then behind it a 171 00:09:17,400 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: very thin sheet of some kind of highly reflective metal. 172 00:09:20,720 --> 00:09:23,400 Speaker 1: And that's what you're talking about here when you might 173 00:09:23,400 --> 00:09:27,040 Speaker 1: start to see examples of this around the third century CE. Now, 174 00:09:27,080 --> 00:09:30,640 Speaker 1: when it comes to uh, mirrors in this period, especially 175 00:09:30,679 --> 00:09:34,400 Speaker 1: mirrors in ancient Rome, already mentioned the idea of silver mirrors, 176 00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:38,479 Speaker 1: but I've read several sources saying that silver was especially 177 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: common as a material for looking glasses in ancient Rome. 178 00:09:42,080 --> 00:09:45,400 Speaker 1: Even plenty of the Elder actually writes about mirrors in 179 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,840 Speaker 1: his Natural History, which was written in the first century CE, 180 00:09:49,080 --> 00:09:51,920 Speaker 1: and in a section about ten which he actually calls 181 00:09:52,120 --> 00:09:55,040 Speaker 1: stand um, which is how it gets its chemical symbol 182 00:09:55,280 --> 00:10:00,280 Speaker 1: s n uh. He writes that the finest mirrors used 183 00:10:00,320 --> 00:10:03,520 Speaker 1: to be prepared at a place called Brundisium, which I 184 00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:06,480 Speaker 1: think corresponds to a city of is today called like 185 00:10:06,520 --> 00:10:09,880 Speaker 1: Brindisi or something. It's in southern Italy. Um. But he 186 00:10:09,920 --> 00:10:13,160 Speaker 1: says that was the case until quote, until everybody, our 187 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:17,720 Speaker 1: maid servants even began to use silver ones. So by 188 00:10:17,760 --> 00:10:20,679 Speaker 1: the time of plenty, he says, silver mirrors are so 189 00:10:20,760 --> 00:10:23,440 Speaker 1: common that even the poor have them, even the serving 190 00:10:23,520 --> 00:10:26,160 Speaker 1: staff have their own silver mirrors. Yeah. And I think 191 00:10:26,160 --> 00:10:30,440 Speaker 1: I've read some other accounts of of Roman writings that 192 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:33,000 Speaker 1: they would even comment about just sort of the mirror craze, 193 00:10:33,080 --> 00:10:35,559 Speaker 1: just like how how, oh my goodness, everybody has these, 194 00:10:35,559 --> 00:10:38,960 Speaker 1: They're everywhere. Uh and uh, and you know, sort of 195 00:10:39,040 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 1: using it as a way to discuss the vanity of 196 00:10:41,040 --> 00:10:45,400 Speaker 1: the age. Yeah. Now, I think that there is some evidence, 197 00:10:45,440 --> 00:10:48,280 Speaker 1: like you're saying that during the Roman Empire, there were 198 00:10:48,640 --> 00:10:51,760 Speaker 1: some mirrors that involved a layer of glass, But but 199 00:10:51,840 --> 00:10:54,080 Speaker 1: I think most mirrors of this time would not have 200 00:10:54,200 --> 00:10:56,640 Speaker 1: had glass. They would have been just like a highly 201 00:10:56,720 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 1: polished silver surface or bronze surface. But we do see 202 00:11:02,520 --> 00:11:05,560 Speaker 1: the glass mirror began to show up and according to 203 00:11:05,600 --> 00:11:07,640 Speaker 1: Plenty of the elder, who's actually one of the we 204 00:11:07,840 --> 00:11:10,280 Speaker 1: we often referred to Plenty here, but he's one of 205 00:11:10,280 --> 00:11:13,320 Speaker 1: the major sources of the day that that is often 206 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:16,360 Speaker 1: referred back to and trying to pinpoint where mirrors are 207 00:11:16,360 --> 00:11:18,920 Speaker 1: coming from. The glass mirrors are coming from around this time. 208 00:11:18,960 --> 00:11:21,640 Speaker 1: But according to Plenty, they were the product of the 209 00:11:21,720 --> 00:11:25,439 Speaker 1: Lebanese city of Sidon, and the Romans copied these techniques 210 00:11:25,440 --> 00:11:28,360 Speaker 1: for their own mirrors, which became again quite the craze. 211 00:11:28,800 --> 00:11:32,360 Speaker 1: And there's another author, I believe it's Alexander of Afro 212 00:11:32,760 --> 00:11:36,000 Speaker 1: DCS who also wrote about them. So, uh, those are 213 00:11:36,000 --> 00:11:37,719 Speaker 1: those are two of those sources you see mentioned. I 214 00:11:37,720 --> 00:11:40,280 Speaker 1: think these are the two that Pendergrass mentions. So do 215 00:11:40,320 --> 00:11:44,640 Speaker 1: we know anything about the techniques of production in this period? Okay, So, 216 00:11:44,840 --> 00:11:49,199 Speaker 1: according to Mark Pendergrast in in that book Syrian Crafts, 217 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:53,000 Speaker 1: people near Sidon developed glass blowing techniques around a hundred 218 00:11:53,080 --> 00:11:56,440 Speaker 1: BC that allowed them to dip a long hollow metal 219 00:11:56,520 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: tube into molten glass, retrieve a glob, and and use 220 00:12:00,640 --> 00:12:04,400 Speaker 1: that glob and that tube to blow glass shapes. And 221 00:12:04,520 --> 00:12:06,960 Speaker 1: such was their skill that eventually they were, they were 222 00:12:07,000 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: able to do a kind of mass production. Um. And 223 00:12:09,880 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: it makes sense of course that these masters of glass 224 00:12:12,440 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: would then develop eventually develop a key mirror making techniques 225 00:12:16,360 --> 00:12:18,800 Speaker 1: as well. And of course it makes sense that the 226 00:12:18,880 --> 00:12:22,520 Speaker 1: Roman Empire would then take and then spread this technology. 227 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: So the result of all this would have been small 228 00:12:25,600 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: pocket mirrors produced by blowing a thin glass sphere and 229 00:12:29,760 --> 00:12:33,760 Speaker 1: then pouring hot lead into it, down into the sphere, 230 00:12:33,960 --> 00:12:37,320 Speaker 1: coating the inside of it. Okay, and then when this 231 00:12:37,440 --> 00:12:41,440 Speaker 1: is broken and cut, you had mirror glass. So if 232 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:44,200 Speaker 1: you can, you can imagine that like forming this this glob, 233 00:12:44,679 --> 00:12:48,000 Speaker 1: coating the inside of the globe with the lead, and 234 00:12:48,040 --> 00:12:51,679 Speaker 1: then breaking that into two walla, you have the makings 235 00:12:51,720 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: of a mirror. Nice And it sounds like the Roman 236 00:12:54,679 --> 00:12:56,880 Speaker 1: copies of this technique might have been on the whole 237 00:12:57,000 --> 00:12:59,600 Speaker 1: less perfect, with more flaws in the glass, but they 238 00:12:59,640 --> 00:13:03,240 Speaker 1: were still quite a sensation. Uh. And I'm assuming you know, 239 00:13:03,320 --> 00:13:07,200 Speaker 1: quite an improvement in terms of availability over the metal mirror, 240 00:13:07,240 --> 00:13:09,760 Speaker 1: and it just spread throughout the Roman world. Now I 241 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: imagine these probably based on the technique you're describing, would 242 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: not have been super flat that you would probably be 243 00:13:17,640 --> 00:13:21,200 Speaker 1: ending up with somewhat convex or concave mirrors. Yeah, they 244 00:13:21,200 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: would at least be you know, convex to to some degree, 245 00:13:24,200 --> 00:13:27,200 Speaker 1: you know. Um. Now, one of the interesting things is 246 00:13:27,240 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 1: that even though this was widespread, even though the Romans 247 00:13:29,559 --> 00:13:32,640 Speaker 1: copied it, and you were seemingly producing them in more 248 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:35,600 Speaker 1: than one location, with the fall of the Roman Empire, 249 00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,160 Speaker 1: the art of convex mirror making was nearly lost. It 250 00:13:39,200 --> 00:13:43,440 Speaker 1: was kept barely alive apparently in the Near East UM. 251 00:13:43,640 --> 00:13:48,000 Speaker 1: But until the twelfth century revival of mirror technology in Europe, 252 00:13:48,000 --> 00:13:50,680 Speaker 1: it would largely be a return to silver and bronze 253 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: mirrors that were beyond the budgets of most Europeans. UM. So, yeah, 254 00:13:55,800 --> 00:13:58,640 Speaker 1: you had the secret of the glass mirror survived in 255 00:13:58,679 --> 00:14:00,840 Speaker 1: the East and continue you to be said, you know, 256 00:14:01,320 --> 00:14:04,240 Speaker 1: a matter of study in um in the Islamic world, 257 00:14:04,240 --> 00:14:07,280 Speaker 1: where there was a lot of study of mirrors and optics. However, 258 00:14:07,360 --> 00:14:11,480 Speaker 1: eventually you start having these, uh, these these megaprojects coming 259 00:14:11,480 --> 00:14:14,960 Speaker 1: together in Europe, the Gothic cathedral, and of course you 260 00:14:15,000 --> 00:14:18,760 Speaker 1: need glass, you need glass artisans. And so during this 261 00:14:18,800 --> 00:14:21,400 Speaker 1: time the production of mirrors too began to flourish again, 262 00:14:21,680 --> 00:14:24,360 Speaker 1: and by the fifteenth century, you have glassmakers in Germany, 263 00:14:24,480 --> 00:14:27,360 Speaker 1: France and Italy that at all improved quite a bit. 264 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,880 Speaker 1: Apparently the glassmakers of Florence were pretty well known, but 265 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:35,240 Speaker 1: the Venetians really took the cake, particularly on the Aisle 266 00:14:35,360 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: of Morano. So from the eleventh century onward, UH, the 267 00:14:39,120 --> 00:14:42,840 Speaker 1: Venetians held a virtual monopoly on European trade with the East, 268 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:47,320 Speaker 1: and so the importers here they learned glassmaking. Perhaps I 269 00:14:47,320 --> 00:14:49,200 Speaker 1: think there are a couple of different theories, as Pentagraps 270 00:14:49,280 --> 00:14:51,840 Speaker 1: describes it. You know, they might have learned some key 271 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:54,840 Speaker 1: stuff from the Germans. They also might have learned key 272 00:14:54,880 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: things from UH the Islamic world, from Islamic exporters again 273 00:14:58,640 --> 00:15:01,720 Speaker 1: where of those some of the secrets of mirror making 274 00:15:01,800 --> 00:15:06,040 Speaker 1: and optics UH were were kept alive. And so either way, 275 00:15:06,120 --> 00:15:09,920 Speaker 1: maybe from both influences they began making their own excellent 276 00:15:10,000 --> 00:15:13,360 Speaker 1: glasses and mirrors, and the Venetian glassmakers formed their own 277 00:15:13,400 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: guild in the early twelve hundreds. But of course one 278 00:15:17,280 --> 00:15:19,880 Speaker 1: of the things about making glass, blowing glass and making 279 00:15:19,880 --> 00:15:23,560 Speaker 1: mirrors as you need furnaces, and of course that's dangerous 280 00:15:23,600 --> 00:15:26,480 Speaker 1: to a city like Venice. So they were made, they 281 00:15:26,480 --> 00:15:28,680 Speaker 1: were they were forced to move their production out to 282 00:15:28,720 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 1: an island, the island of Murano, and this became the 283 00:15:31,800 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 1: Island of Mirrors. And this is where the art of 284 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:38,560 Speaker 1: mirror making was closely and violently guarded, so you could 285 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:42,640 Speaker 1: be sentenced to death for sharing the secrets of glassmaking. Uh. 286 00:15:42,640 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 1: And families of glassmakers apparently who left uh the island 287 00:15:47,400 --> 00:15:50,240 Speaker 1: in the region would sometimes have their families held hostage 288 00:15:50,680 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: to ensure they returned and they didn't share these these 289 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: vital secrets elsewhere. It's like it's like the KFC Herbs 290 00:15:57,240 --> 00:16:00,800 Speaker 1: and spices recipes, Like, yeah, I mean, it's a big 291 00:16:01,440 --> 00:16:04,600 Speaker 1: these were because not only did they have the secrets 292 00:16:04,640 --> 00:16:08,160 Speaker 1: of making mirrors again and and and doing all this 293 00:16:08,280 --> 00:16:12,320 Speaker 1: fine glass work. Uh, glassmaking also evolved further here. It 294 00:16:12,400 --> 00:16:16,640 Speaker 1: developed further, so clearer glass work was suddenly possible, even 295 00:16:16,720 --> 00:16:19,800 Speaker 1: clearer mirrors, and they were just a huge craze, especially 296 00:16:19,840 --> 00:16:22,120 Speaker 1: in the high society of Europe. So they had a 297 00:16:22,240 --> 00:16:26,400 Speaker 1: vital economic commodity here, so they tightly guarded it. Yeah, 298 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:30,240 Speaker 1: they had a beautifully clear glass that was known as 299 00:16:30,280 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 1: christal O. Yes. So, developing out of these trends after 300 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,960 Speaker 1: the Renaissance, glass mirrors with metal backing became more and 301 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:48,720 Speaker 1: more common, and these had a couple of necessary technical 302 00:16:48,800 --> 00:16:51,240 Speaker 1: features in order to be a very high quality. So 303 00:16:51,520 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: you would need to be able to produce a pain 304 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:59,920 Speaker 1: of extremely clear, extremely flat glass and then a flat 305 00:17:00,280 --> 00:17:03,880 Speaker 1: backing of highly reflective metal on one side of it. 306 00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:06,080 Speaker 1: So when you look at a mirror today, typically what 307 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: you're looking at is there's a pane of glass and 308 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:11,320 Speaker 1: it has been coated on the back side with highly 309 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:15,240 Speaker 1: reflective metal. And then so you're looking into the glass 310 00:17:15,240 --> 00:17:18,480 Speaker 1: and your reflection is bouncing off of that reflective metal, 311 00:17:18,840 --> 00:17:21,800 Speaker 1: and then back through this very clear, very flat glass 312 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: undistorted towards you. And this could create very nice mirrors, 313 00:17:26,000 --> 00:17:28,720 Speaker 1: but there were a few wrinkles here. One thing is 314 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,280 Speaker 1: that up until the nineteenth century, the dominant method for 315 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:36,840 Speaker 1: producing glass mirrors was creating a problem. So let's say 316 00:17:36,880 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: it's the early eighteen hundreds and you are a you 317 00:17:39,359 --> 00:17:42,440 Speaker 1: are a factory, a mirror factory owner, You own a 318 00:17:42,480 --> 00:17:45,479 Speaker 1: shop floor that makes mirrors, and you look out at 319 00:17:45,480 --> 00:17:49,240 Speaker 1: your workers and you think something is wrong with these people. 320 00:17:49,320 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: My workers, they keep getting irritable and depressed, and they 321 00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,359 Speaker 1: don't have any energy, and they can't pay attention to 322 00:17:55,400 --> 00:17:58,480 Speaker 1: things I'm telling them, and they get tremmors and delirium 323 00:17:58,520 --> 00:18:00,800 Speaker 1: in the middle of a shift. Why can't I get 324 00:18:00,840 --> 00:18:04,520 Speaker 1: better workers? Well, like many other stories around this time 325 00:18:04,520 --> 00:18:06,399 Speaker 1: in history, it turned out it is not the fault 326 00:18:06,440 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 1: of the workers but of the materials they were being 327 00:18:09,200 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: subjected to on the shop floor, because the mirrors of 328 00:18:13,400 --> 00:18:16,520 Speaker 1: this time were made with metal backing that contained large 329 00:18:16,520 --> 00:18:19,800 Speaker 1: amounts of mercury. And here we're back to a pretty 330 00:18:19,840 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: familiar historical subject for our show, which is overexposure to 331 00:18:24,000 --> 00:18:27,080 Speaker 1: mercury and the health effects thereof. In this case, we're 332 00:18:27,080 --> 00:18:31,480 Speaker 1: talking about mercury raism or mad Hatter's disease colloquially, which 333 00:18:31,520 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: is a neurological disorder resulting from overexposure to mercury. I 334 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:40,720 Speaker 1: think it's especially common with mercury fumes inhaled Yeah, we 335 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: discussed this on the show before, in particular professions of 336 00:18:44,080 --> 00:18:46,840 Speaker 1: the day. Of course, you are more likely to be 337 00:18:46,960 --> 00:18:50,520 Speaker 1: exposed to these mercury fumes, and so the workers in 338 00:18:50,560 --> 00:18:54,200 Speaker 1: these in these looking glass shops are are just continually 339 00:18:54,359 --> 00:18:57,639 Speaker 1: being exposed to the horrors of breathing mercury fumes and 340 00:18:57,960 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: just generally being exposed to mercury all the time until 341 00:19:01,160 --> 00:19:04,240 Speaker 1: we get the intervention of a pretty cool figure in 342 00:19:04,280 --> 00:19:08,320 Speaker 1: the history of chemistry named Eustace von Liebig, who was 343 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:11,480 Speaker 1: a German scientist who lived from eighteen oh three to 344 00:19:11,560 --> 00:19:16,159 Speaker 1: eighteen seventy three, and von Liebig was responsible for a 345 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:20,600 Speaker 1: number of important advancements in organic chemistry and agricultural science 346 00:19:20,720 --> 00:19:25,040 Speaker 1: that made farming more reliable and famine less common. One 347 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:28,639 Speaker 1: of his big contributions is to the modern science of fertilizers, 348 00:19:28,720 --> 00:19:32,840 Speaker 1: nitrogen fertilizers, and to a better understanding of the relationship 349 00:19:33,240 --> 00:19:37,480 Speaker 1: between crops success and trace mineral contents in the soil. 350 00:19:38,359 --> 00:19:40,840 Speaker 1: Like I think one of the things that's often remembered 351 00:19:40,840 --> 00:19:44,040 Speaker 1: about him is that he established that you know, basically, 352 00:19:44,160 --> 00:19:46,560 Speaker 1: you're the success of your crops is going to be 353 00:19:46,720 --> 00:19:51,479 Speaker 1: limited by whatever the soil is poorest in, like whatever 354 00:19:51,560 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: the most limited essential nutrient that the plants need, whatever 355 00:19:55,680 --> 00:19:58,119 Speaker 1: is the most limited in the soil is going to 356 00:19:58,160 --> 00:20:00,600 Speaker 1: be the factory that limits the growth of the plants. 357 00:20:01,320 --> 00:20:03,680 Speaker 1: And so you could and so you could fix that 358 00:20:04,040 --> 00:20:07,760 Speaker 1: by say, bringing in animal manure, which contained many minerals 359 00:20:07,760 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: and nutrients that plants would need and would help even 360 00:20:10,359 --> 00:20:14,199 Speaker 1: out the nutrient profile of the soil. Von Liebig was 361 00:20:14,280 --> 00:20:17,560 Speaker 1: also a pioneer in the perhaps gross but also important 362 00:20:17,600 --> 00:20:21,679 Speaker 1: science of meat chemistry. Uh. He was really big on 363 00:20:21,960 --> 00:20:25,560 Speaker 1: not letting nutrition go to waste. So, for example, the 364 00:20:25,640 --> 00:20:28,600 Speaker 1: kind of nutrients that would be wasted if you were 365 00:20:28,640 --> 00:20:31,679 Speaker 1: to boil a hunk of beef and then discard the 366 00:20:31,720 --> 00:20:33,760 Speaker 1: cooking liquid. You know, in that case, a lot of 367 00:20:33,800 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: good nutrition is being extracted by the cooking process and 368 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,920 Speaker 1: then left in the water. So if only Big developed 369 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:43,679 Speaker 1: was you know, use this information to try to develop 370 00:20:43,720 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 1: special cooking methods and in the creation of what was 371 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:50,399 Speaker 1: called a meat extract, which could be made into a 372 00:20:50,480 --> 00:20:54,119 Speaker 1: broth or a meat tea. This reminds me of our 373 00:20:54,160 --> 00:20:58,959 Speaker 1: past discussions on both gravy but also ultimately the various 374 00:20:58,960 --> 00:21:02,880 Speaker 1: sauces that he inspired. Catch up the idea that after 375 00:21:02,920 --> 00:21:06,439 Speaker 1: you're you're done rendering or cooking that meat or the 376 00:21:06,480 --> 00:21:08,880 Speaker 1: fish or whatever it happens to be, you're you're often 377 00:21:09,040 --> 00:21:14,320 Speaker 1: left with these dregs that are that can be super flavorful, um, 378 00:21:14,359 --> 00:21:17,359 Speaker 1: that can certainly have still have a fair amount of 379 00:21:17,440 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: nutritional value. And then what do you do with them? Right? 380 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:24,639 Speaker 1: Obviously meat tea? Right? Yeah, you make meat tea, which 381 00:21:24,880 --> 00:21:26,760 Speaker 1: I don't know. It's funny, Like I don't find the 382 00:21:26,800 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 1: idea of a of a beef broth gross, but when 383 00:21:29,800 --> 00:21:33,359 Speaker 1: you phrase it as meat tea, it sounds disgusting. Maybe 384 00:21:33,359 --> 00:21:36,760 Speaker 1: that's because I'm imagining adding cream and sugar to it. Oh, 385 00:21:36,840 --> 00:21:39,119 Speaker 1: I mean so much with smell. I think we've discussed 386 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:41,160 Speaker 1: in the science of smell or it's about it's about 387 00:21:41,160 --> 00:21:44,399 Speaker 1: how you're framing it. Um Like at the point the 388 00:21:44,480 --> 00:21:47,920 Speaker 1: cheese versus smelly shoe example is a is a big one. 389 00:21:47,960 --> 00:21:50,280 Speaker 1: You know, depending on how people are all or are primed, 390 00:21:50,760 --> 00:21:54,000 Speaker 1: they'll they'll interpret the smell in a different way. Um. 391 00:21:54,960 --> 00:21:57,480 Speaker 1: My wife and I had had a similar situation very recently. 392 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:00,000 Speaker 1: We're out walking through the neighborhood and it was garbage 393 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,600 Speaker 1: day and we walked by this one garbage can and 394 00:22:02,640 --> 00:22:05,719 Speaker 1: we're like, oh my goodness, that's absolutely foul. Then we 395 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 1: realized it wasn't the garbage can. It was somebody grilling 396 00:22:08,880 --> 00:22:12,360 Speaker 1: seafood just to block up. Of course, it was actually 397 00:22:12,400 --> 00:22:14,600 Speaker 1: not a foul smell at all. That it was. You know, 398 00:22:14,640 --> 00:22:17,000 Speaker 1: would rather blur they're pleasing smell, So you know, somebody's 399 00:22:17,000 --> 00:22:19,480 Speaker 1: grilling some delicious seafood. But if you walk by a 400 00:22:19,520 --> 00:22:22,080 Speaker 1: garbage can and you smell it, if you associated with 401 00:22:22,119 --> 00:22:23,960 Speaker 1: the garbage can, then you might be more inclined to 402 00:22:24,080 --> 00:22:27,320 Speaker 1: to interpret it as a foul odor. You ever, Um, 403 00:22:27,359 --> 00:22:30,320 Speaker 1: You're walking around somewhere, say by a bunch of restaurants 404 00:22:30,400 --> 00:22:33,960 Speaker 1: or buildings or something, and you smell that that that 405 00:22:34,080 --> 00:22:37,879 Speaker 1: delicious fried food carnival smell. You know, it's the smell 406 00:22:37,960 --> 00:22:40,320 Speaker 1: of of funnel cake and corn dogs and all that. 407 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,119 Speaker 1: It's like so so good. And then you realize what 408 00:22:43,119 --> 00:22:49,280 Speaker 1: you're smelling is the old grease disposal dumpster behind the place. Yep, yep, 409 00:22:49,400 --> 00:22:52,480 Speaker 1: I've had that situation as well. Yeah, but for a second, 410 00:22:52,520 --> 00:22:56,159 Speaker 1: the rat brain is the one calling the shots. Yeah. 411 00:22:56,320 --> 00:22:59,280 Speaker 1: But anyway, so how does it funly Big connect back 412 00:22:59,320 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: to mirrors. Well, remember that the problem is with the 413 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:05,960 Speaker 1: mercury exposure that the workers are facing on these factory floors. 414 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:09,720 Speaker 1: In eighteen thirty five, Eustace fon lie Big also discovered 415 00:23:09,760 --> 00:23:13,560 Speaker 1: a process for making metal backed glass mirrors in a 416 00:23:13,600 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: way that wouldn't be nearly as hazardous to the health 417 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:20,440 Speaker 1: of the workers. So, instead of using mercury, fon Liebig's 418 00:23:20,520 --> 00:23:24,439 Speaker 1: method began by applying silver nitrate in a solution of 419 00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:28,040 Speaker 1: ammonia to the back of the glass and then exposing 420 00:23:28,080 --> 00:23:32,080 Speaker 1: that to fumes of formaldehyde, and this would trigger a 421 00:23:32,200 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 1: chemical reaction, reducing the silver nitrate solution to a thin 422 00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,800 Speaker 1: layer of silver stuck to the back of the pain. 423 00:23:39,400 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: And apparently in eighteen fifty six he came up with 424 00:23:42,400 --> 00:23:47,680 Speaker 1: with another improved method of doing this, and manufacturers eventually 425 00:23:47,680 --> 00:23:50,840 Speaker 1: found that the layer of silver could be protected by 426 00:23:50,880 --> 00:23:54,040 Speaker 1: covering it with layers of paint and varnish, and the 427 00:23:54,440 --> 00:23:57,360 Speaker 1: fon lie Big silvering method became the new standard for 428 00:23:57,400 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: several reasons. First of all, silver reflected more light than 429 00:24:01,680 --> 00:24:05,360 Speaker 1: the older recipes involving things like mercury and tin. It 430 00:24:05,440 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 1: was less prone to tarnishing, at least within this application 431 00:24:08,520 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: when it's protected by these these layers of paint and varnish. 432 00:24:11,560 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 1: And of course I think we would say ethically, most importantly, 433 00:24:14,760 --> 00:24:17,920 Speaker 1: it didn't poison the workers, or at least not as much. 434 00:24:18,640 --> 00:24:21,640 Speaker 1: Um so. So the fondly Big method, I think really 435 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:25,240 Speaker 1: is the precursor to how most modern glass mirrors are 436 00:24:25,240 --> 00:24:27,840 Speaker 1: made today. One thing that's kind of cool. You can 437 00:24:27,880 --> 00:24:29,840 Speaker 1: probably find this if you if you just look up 438 00:24:29,880 --> 00:24:31,600 Speaker 1: like a you know, one of those how it's made 439 00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 1: type videos on a mirror factory. But I don't think 440 00:24:35,880 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 1: I had quite ever thought about this. But most mirrors today, 441 00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 1: I think are made as huge sheets. So you will 442 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:46,800 Speaker 1: you will start with a large sheet of glass that 443 00:24:46,960 --> 00:24:50,800 Speaker 1: is you know, highly polished to the correct specifications, and 444 00:24:50,800 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: then it is coated with some highly reflective metal backing 445 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,000 Speaker 1: and then coated with some paint to to protect the 446 00:24:56,040 --> 00:25:00,720 Speaker 1: metal backing, and then that huge sheet of or material 447 00:25:01,040 --> 00:25:04,400 Speaker 1: is cut into the shapes that you will need for 448 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:08,399 Speaker 1: I don't know whatever the individual mirror framers or manufacturers 449 00:25:08,520 --> 00:25:11,240 Speaker 1: or turning it into after that. But you kind of 450 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,920 Speaker 1: just start with like these big old sheets of mirror 451 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: stuff kind of the creation of almost like a mirror 452 00:25:17,359 --> 00:25:21,200 Speaker 1: or material that is then rented down into these smaller forms. Yeah, 453 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:24,199 Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I wonder what happens with the leftover parts. So, 454 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:27,000 Speaker 1: like you cut the like circles and ovals and squares 455 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 1: out of it that you're selling to people, and then 456 00:25:28,840 --> 00:25:31,520 Speaker 1: what do you have Do you have borders of mirror 457 00:25:31,560 --> 00:25:34,919 Speaker 1: stuff left over? Wonder whatever smaller and smaller mirrors, So, 458 00:25:35,320 --> 00:25:40,040 Speaker 1: for instance, is the dentist mirror made from that same process, 459 00:25:40,119 --> 00:25:43,199 Speaker 1: or do you need a different mirror making technique in 460 00:25:43,280 --> 00:25:45,919 Speaker 1: order to get that particular mirror. Are there certain requirements 461 00:25:45,960 --> 00:25:49,440 Speaker 1: for a for a dental for dental instruments that requires 462 00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,840 Speaker 1: a different mirror making process. I don't know. That's a 463 00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:55,280 Speaker 1: good question. I don't know if dental mirrors do involve 464 00:25:55,359 --> 00:25:57,479 Speaker 1: glass or not. I don't know. They might just get 465 00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:01,760 Speaker 1: metal metal. Yeah, it's weird. I've had for something that 466 00:26:01,800 --> 00:26:04,320 Speaker 1: has been inside my body so many times, I don't 467 00:26:04,320 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 1: think I've had a good look at it. Yeah, I've 468 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:09,320 Speaker 1: never had a good look at that caveatron either. I 469 00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:13,960 Speaker 1: just close my eyes. Well, respect your work, dentists. You'll 470 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:18,120 Speaker 1: you'll do great things, but you know it's not fun. Yeah, 471 00:26:18,320 --> 00:26:20,280 Speaker 1: And you can't ever ask about these things either. I 472 00:26:20,280 --> 00:26:22,720 Speaker 1: mean sometimes you I can get a question out here 473 00:26:22,760 --> 00:26:24,520 Speaker 1: and there, but it's it's hard, you know, because they're 474 00:26:24,520 --> 00:26:27,720 Speaker 1: in You're right. So at this point, I want to 475 00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:30,800 Speaker 1: talk a little bit about more about the mirror and 476 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: metaphor in the mirror, and literature and the arts in general. 477 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:38,080 Speaker 1: So we've spoken before. I think we've already touched on 478 00:26:38,119 --> 00:26:40,399 Speaker 1: in these episodes, even about the importance of technology are 479 00:26:40,560 --> 00:26:44,439 Speaker 1: in our metaphors, and of course mirrors due factor pretty 480 00:26:44,440 --> 00:26:49,399 Speaker 1: heavily into our just everyday language mirrors and reflection. If you, 481 00:26:49,640 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 1: for instance, if you're researching some podcast episodes on mirrors 482 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,560 Speaker 1: and reflections, you'll you'll often find this. You know, you'll 483 00:26:56,560 --> 00:26:58,359 Speaker 1: think you have a good source, and you'll start looking 484 00:26:58,359 --> 00:27:00,720 Speaker 1: around in the source for mentions of mirror is in reflection. 485 00:27:00,720 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: Then you realize, oh, some of these are not actual 486 00:27:03,240 --> 00:27:07,600 Speaker 1: discussions of mirrors or reflections. They're just using them to 487 00:27:07,680 --> 00:27:11,440 Speaker 1: discuss other things. Uh, they're using them as technological metaphors 488 00:27:11,440 --> 00:27:13,240 Speaker 1: to discuss something else that might actually be in a 489 00:27:14,040 --> 00:27:17,439 Speaker 1: within the same topic or an adjacent topic, etcetera. And 490 00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,080 Speaker 1: of course, one of the things about technological metaphors is 491 00:27:20,119 --> 00:27:22,960 Speaker 1: we've discussed is that you can use a metaphor of 492 00:27:22,960 --> 00:27:27,040 Speaker 1: a technology that you don't fully understand to describe another 493 00:27:27,080 --> 00:27:31,679 Speaker 1: thing that you don't fully understand. And uh, but in 494 00:27:31,680 --> 00:27:33,960 Speaker 1: a in a weird way, it can be this heuristic 495 00:27:33,960 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: that allows you to um, uh, I don't know, to 496 00:27:37,240 --> 00:27:39,480 Speaker 1: go through your day feeling like you understand what you're 497 00:27:39,520 --> 00:27:41,960 Speaker 1: talking about. Like the example we've often referred to as 498 00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:45,119 Speaker 1: like the idea of okay, security, video camera and memory. 499 00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:49,639 Speaker 1: I'll use this technological metaphor to understand my memory, even 500 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 1: though I really don't understand how the video camera works 501 00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:54,760 Speaker 1: and I don't understand how memory works, and it's giving 502 00:27:54,760 --> 00:27:58,720 Speaker 1: me an actual, you know, particular but possibly harmful but 503 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:02,159 Speaker 1: at least incorrect idea of what my memory is and 504 00:28:02,160 --> 00:28:05,359 Speaker 1: what my visual perception consists of. Right, And so the 505 00:28:05,400 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: mirror seems like a perfect example of this kind of 506 00:28:08,880 --> 00:28:13,320 Speaker 1: object of metaphor. Yeah, because of course the mirror is 507 00:28:13,359 --> 00:28:15,560 Speaker 1: for the most part, it is a technology. We're talking 508 00:28:15,560 --> 00:28:18,720 Speaker 1: about something that is um yes, yes, it can occur naturally, 509 00:28:18,760 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: but then we have this history of of using technology 510 00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:25,280 Speaker 1: to augment it and increase it until we get into 511 00:28:25,320 --> 00:28:27,600 Speaker 1: this mirror age that we live in. And yeah, it's 512 00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:32,560 Speaker 1: it's difficult to get through your day without using mirror terminology. 513 00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:36,520 Speaker 1: I challenge anyone to try it or imagine any work 514 00:28:36,560 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: of art without references to mirrors. So I was looking 515 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:42,680 Speaker 1: around for any writings on this, and I found a book, 516 00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: a really interesting book from three by Herbert Grabes titled uh, 517 00:28:46,800 --> 00:28:52,280 Speaker 1: the Mutable Glass, and particularly it's about the the use 518 00:28:52,600 --> 00:28:56,000 Speaker 1: of the mirror as a as a metaphor, as a symbol, 519 00:28:56,080 --> 00:29:00,960 Speaker 1: etcetera in medieval European literature. And I was rather taken 520 00:29:01,360 --> 00:29:02,959 Speaker 1: with with parts of this book. I want to read 521 00:29:02,960 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: a quick quote from it before I continue. Quote. The 522 00:29:06,320 --> 00:29:10,240 Speaker 1: employment of the mirror in metaphorical context is so frequent 523 00:29:10,280 --> 00:29:13,320 Speaker 1: and deliberate a strategy in the English literature of the 524 00:29:13,400 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: thirteen to seventeen centuries that the mirror can be said 525 00:29:17,000 --> 00:29:22,080 Speaker 1: to constitute the central image for a particular worldview. So 526 00:29:22,360 --> 00:29:25,240 Speaker 1: much of the book that follows is concerned with fleshing 527 00:29:25,240 --> 00:29:27,000 Speaker 1: this out. You know, this is the central thesis of 528 00:29:27,000 --> 00:29:29,560 Speaker 1: the book. But but in brief like the mirror becomes 529 00:29:29,560 --> 00:29:32,600 Speaker 1: this kind of metaphorical center, a frequent focus of art 530 00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,520 Speaker 1: and literature, and the subject and tool of scientific study 531 00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:41,360 Speaker 1: as well. So it's it's really this kind of mirror mania. Now, 532 00:29:41,400 --> 00:29:44,600 Speaker 1: Graves is upfront that his chief focus is on medieval 533 00:29:44,640 --> 00:29:47,960 Speaker 1: Europe thirteen through seventeen centuries, but also points out that 534 00:29:48,000 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: you do see it. You do see the use of 535 00:29:49,920 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 1: mirror show up in earlier literatures as well, but during 536 00:29:53,000 --> 00:29:55,560 Speaker 1: the time period of focus here, he writes that you 537 00:29:55,560 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: could you could almost call it a fad. It was 538 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:00,920 Speaker 1: just so frequently employed. It was this kind of mirror mania. 539 00:30:01,560 --> 00:30:04,360 Speaker 1: And the reasoning for this, he writes, is, first of all, 540 00:30:04,560 --> 00:30:07,760 Speaker 1: twelfth century Europe had relearned the ancient art of making 541 00:30:07,760 --> 00:30:12,920 Speaker 1: glass mirrors, and the following century saw uh, medieval polished 542 00:30:13,000 --> 00:30:16,760 Speaker 1: metal mirrors overtake those of antiquity, because again, remember, the 543 00:30:17,040 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: secret was lost and and it was just the rich 544 00:30:19,920 --> 00:30:23,600 Speaker 1: who could still hang on to these antique mirrors made 545 00:30:23,600 --> 00:30:25,640 Speaker 1: of metal or or the or even some of these 546 00:30:25,640 --> 00:30:28,560 Speaker 1: antique glass ones that no one knew how to make anymore. 547 00:30:28,840 --> 00:30:32,080 Speaker 1: But again, by the fifteenth century of Venetian glassmakers had 548 00:30:32,120 --> 00:30:34,440 Speaker 1: pushed the technology to the point that the general public 549 00:30:34,480 --> 00:30:37,400 Speaker 1: could get their hands on these small, mass produced and 550 00:30:37,480 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: ultimately inexpensive mirrors. Also during this time, like we've been discussing, 551 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:45,080 Speaker 1: tin and mercury backings overtook lead and silver, and mirrors 552 00:30:45,080 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: became larger. And he ultimately compares this to um. He 553 00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:53,240 Speaker 1: compares this a little bit to how popular the photograph 554 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:57,280 Speaker 1: became in the nineteenth century, the craze of photography and UH, 555 00:30:57,320 --> 00:30:59,440 Speaker 1: and we would of course refer back to our invention 556 00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:02,080 Speaker 1: episodes on on this where we we talked about just 557 00:31:02,200 --> 00:31:04,800 Speaker 1: what a game changer this was and how it it 558 00:31:04,920 --> 00:31:08,960 Speaker 1: just it amazed people, It captured the public imagination, and 559 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: and it also changed the way we thought about ourselves 560 00:31:11,680 --> 00:31:15,000 Speaker 1: and how we interact with the world. Yeah. And I 561 00:31:15,040 --> 00:31:18,200 Speaker 1: think um had some effects on how we thought about 562 00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:22,000 Speaker 1: the ideas of like the objectivity of reality, like for 563 00:31:22,040 --> 00:31:25,640 Speaker 1: the first time that an an image of reality could 564 00:31:25,640 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 1: be fixed in time in a somewhat objective way. Right. 565 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:34,040 Speaker 1: So Graves writes that the mirror becomes just indispensable when 566 00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,440 Speaker 1: it comes to fashion. It becomes a central focus of art. Um. 567 00:31:39,040 --> 00:31:42,240 Speaker 1: The mirrors, uh, you know, had been of interest to 568 00:31:42,280 --> 00:31:45,200 Speaker 1: great thinkers of antiquity. Uh, and the great thinkers of 569 00:31:45,240 --> 00:31:47,880 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages likewise picked it up, and we're fascinated 570 00:31:47,960 --> 00:31:50,560 Speaker 1: with it as well. So it's you just imagine, just everybody, 571 00:31:50,560 --> 00:31:53,280 Speaker 1: every corner of life, no matter what your focus, you're 572 00:31:53,320 --> 00:31:56,320 Speaker 1: turning to the mirror. Are you engaging in theology or 573 00:31:56,440 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: engaging in philosophy, Are you a scientist? Are you just 574 00:32:00,360 --> 00:32:02,800 Speaker 1: someone who's really into your appearance? Like the mirror is 575 00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,640 Speaker 1: going to play a role in pretty much all of 576 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,160 Speaker 1: these contemplations. Um. And of course his book is is 577 00:32:09,200 --> 00:32:11,320 Speaker 1: just full of examples of this. So I'm not gonna 578 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:14,160 Speaker 1: roll through them. But for one literary example, you can 579 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:17,360 Speaker 1: of course turn to Dante. Uh. Dante makes extensive use 580 00:32:17,400 --> 00:32:20,440 Speaker 1: of mirrors in the Divine Comedy. Um and I was 581 00:32:20,520 --> 00:32:22,840 Speaker 1: I was reading another article that points out some of 582 00:32:22,840 --> 00:32:26,600 Speaker 1: the examples. Here a titled light reflection, mirror, Metaphors and 583 00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,880 Speaker 1: Optical Framing and Dante's Comedy by Simon Gilson. In this 584 00:32:31,160 --> 00:32:33,719 Speaker 1: points that the Dante drew on his knowledge of the 585 00:32:33,800 --> 00:32:38,360 Speaker 1: law of light reflection, weakening by reflection, and the multiplication 586 00:32:38,400 --> 00:32:41,640 Speaker 1: of mirrord light, as well as the lead backing required 587 00:32:41,680 --> 00:32:45,240 Speaker 1: to make surfaces reflective uh than the mirror, the mirroring 588 00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:48,480 Speaker 1: properties of water, and the kind of image that is 589 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:51,840 Speaker 1: visible in a mirror. Apparently you see all these different 590 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: ideas reflected in the Divine Comedy, and in this we 591 00:32:56,000 --> 00:32:57,680 Speaker 1: have I think we've touched on this before in the show. 592 00:32:57,720 --> 00:32:59,680 Speaker 1: We have to remember that Dante was a man that 593 00:32:59,800 --> 00:33:01,880 Speaker 1: was in rested in a vast number of topics, and 594 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:04,640 Speaker 1: he managed to work just about all of them into 595 00:33:04,880 --> 00:33:08,440 Speaker 1: his into his writings, you know, from theology and mythology 596 00:33:08,520 --> 00:33:12,840 Speaker 1: to politics and personal grudges. Yes, but I mean this 597 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,920 Speaker 1: does remind me how many parts of the divine comedy. 598 00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:22,160 Speaker 1: There are where he's just explaining in minute detail, um, 599 00:33:22,280 --> 00:33:25,800 Speaker 1: things about how the light is striking something or how 600 00:33:25,840 --> 00:33:28,920 Speaker 1: an image is created. Uh, some of which I think 601 00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:31,840 Speaker 1: is actually it can come off as kind of pedantic 602 00:33:31,880 --> 00:33:34,719 Speaker 1: to modern readers, but some of it is very correct. 603 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: I think other stuff he has about the physics of 604 00:33:36,720 --> 00:33:39,760 Speaker 1: light is kind of off base, yeah, but but certainly, 605 00:33:39,760 --> 00:33:42,840 Speaker 1: like he is, his eyes are open to to to 606 00:33:43,000 --> 00:33:45,560 Speaker 1: to an understanding of how light is working and our 607 00:33:45,600 --> 00:33:48,080 Speaker 1: reflections are working, and then we see that in the work. 608 00:33:48,560 --> 00:33:52,320 Speaker 1: I think some of the key examples are from Purgatorio 609 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: and Paradiso Um. There's one in particular that that Gilson highlights, uh. 610 00:33:59,800 --> 00:34:01,760 Speaker 1: And this is not one I This is from Paradise, 611 00:34:01,840 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: of which I haven't spent as much time with. Uh. 612 00:34:05,640 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: But there's apparently a scene that, again I don't remember, 613 00:34:08,719 --> 00:34:12,520 Speaker 1: where Thomas the Quinas appears and describes how divine light 614 00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:17,240 Speaker 1: passes from the triune God through angels and so forth. 615 00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:19,240 Speaker 1: So it's one of these where he's like he's getting 616 00:34:19,320 --> 00:34:22,120 Speaker 1: he's trying to explain this other worldly, almost you know, 617 00:34:22,160 --> 00:34:28,120 Speaker 1: psychedelic effect of beholding the celestial realms and using his 618 00:34:28,320 --> 00:34:32,799 Speaker 1: understanding of of optics to do, so yeah, totally. Uh, 619 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,280 Speaker 1: there there is a lot of light in the parody. 620 00:34:35,360 --> 00:34:37,600 Speaker 1: So I was going to pull a quote from it, 621 00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,239 Speaker 1: but I was like, I was looking over and I'm like, well, 622 00:34:39,280 --> 00:34:41,839 Speaker 1: this is this is kind of I don't know that 623 00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:46,640 Speaker 1: the listeners want this. Um. One of the things about 624 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:49,120 Speaker 1: about the Divine Comedy, I mean it's it is in 625 00:34:49,200 --> 00:34:53,360 Speaker 1: its entirety a master work of of Western literature and 626 00:34:53,360 --> 00:34:57,759 Speaker 1: medieval literature for sure, but um, it is uh, it's 627 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:00,319 Speaker 1: more it's ultimately I think, more fun. When you're in Hell, 628 00:35:01,000 --> 00:35:03,000 Speaker 1: it's more fun. And Inferno, like there's just a lot 629 00:35:03,000 --> 00:35:06,640 Speaker 1: more humor, uh, and there's more, you know, the grotesque. 630 00:35:07,360 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: And of course, as you work up to Paradiso with Dante, 631 00:35:12,640 --> 00:35:15,399 Speaker 1: you leave, you increasingly leave a lot of that behind you, 632 00:35:15,840 --> 00:35:18,719 Speaker 1: and so by the time you get to uh Paradiso, 633 00:35:18,880 --> 00:35:21,600 Speaker 1: it's it's it's kind of a different beast. The Paradiso 634 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,160 Speaker 1: still has plenty of politics in it that can be funny. 635 00:35:24,600 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 1: It is it's it's still good. Yeah. I think also 636 00:35:29,000 --> 00:35:31,280 Speaker 1: maybe I'm a little biased because the when I studied 637 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:33,279 Speaker 1: in college, I was in a Dante class and we 638 00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:34,959 Speaker 1: were kind of running out of time by the time 639 00:35:35,000 --> 00:35:38,080 Speaker 1: we got to Paradise, so we kind of had to 640 00:35:38,160 --> 00:35:40,080 Speaker 1: rush through it. We we spent a lot of time 641 00:35:40,200 --> 00:35:44,279 Speaker 1: in hell and purgatory. Yeah, I agree that those tend 642 00:35:44,320 --> 00:35:55,239 Speaker 1: to be a little bit more, They grab you more. Yeah. Now, 643 00:35:55,280 --> 00:35:59,399 Speaker 1: when it comes to mirrors in visual art, there's there's 644 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,120 Speaker 1: so much we might talk about here. We already mentioned 645 00:36:02,160 --> 00:36:05,040 Speaker 1: the venus effect in part one of this series, but 646 00:36:05,080 --> 00:36:07,520 Speaker 1: I thought we might touch on on the art of 647 00:36:07,560 --> 00:36:13,960 Speaker 1: fifteenth century early uh Netherlandish artist John van Eyck, who's um, 648 00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: who in particular is known for some of his paintings 649 00:36:17,239 --> 00:36:20,640 Speaker 1: that feature mirrors. In fact, there's one, uh, there's one 650 00:36:20,640 --> 00:36:22,120 Speaker 1: in particular that I think a lot of you have 651 00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:27,600 Speaker 1: probably seen, and it is um the uh the Arnolfini 652 00:36:27,719 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: wedding portrait from fourteen thirty four. And Joe, would you 653 00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,440 Speaker 1: would you mind describing this painting for our listeners. Well, 654 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,839 Speaker 1: let's see, in the foreground you have two aliens from 655 00:36:37,920 --> 00:36:42,520 Speaker 1: Zeta Reticuli. Uh. Now you have two humans who are 656 00:36:42,560 --> 00:36:45,520 Speaker 1: are I guess they are getting married maybe they're There 657 00:36:45,520 --> 00:36:47,840 Speaker 1: are two very pale people, a man and a woman. 658 00:36:47,880 --> 00:36:52,080 Speaker 1: The man is wearing an extremely comically large black hat 659 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,520 Speaker 1: and the woman is wearing a large green dress, and 660 00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:56,880 Speaker 1: they're holding hands and there is a very cute small 661 00:36:57,000 --> 00:37:00,640 Speaker 1: dog at their feet. Um. This obser ration is not 662 00:37:00,760 --> 00:37:03,520 Speaker 1: original to me. I can't remember where. I read this 663 00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:05,880 Speaker 1: on some joke thread on the internet long ago that 664 00:37:06,000 --> 00:37:08,920 Speaker 1: was very funny. But uh. The author of this thread 665 00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: pointed out that a distinctive feature of the paintings of 666 00:37:11,680 --> 00:37:15,920 Speaker 1: Jan Vanik is that everybody looks like Vladimir Putin, and 667 00:37:16,080 --> 00:37:18,760 Speaker 1: in this case, I think that is true. Yeah, everybody 668 00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:22,879 Speaker 1: looks like Putin, especially the guy in the big hat. Yeah, yeah, Putinsk. 669 00:37:23,280 --> 00:37:26,880 Speaker 1: But then in the in the deep background behind this 670 00:37:27,000 --> 00:37:30,800 Speaker 1: sweating couple and their little dog is a wall mounted 671 00:37:30,960 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: convex mirror. Uh. And you can tell it's convex because 672 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,760 Speaker 1: of the way the image is distorted, so it's around 673 00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:39,920 Speaker 1: mirror in a sort of wheel like frame, and then 674 00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:42,520 Speaker 1: within the looking glass part of it, the image is 675 00:37:42,600 --> 00:37:45,240 Speaker 1: sort of bent in the way you would recognize from 676 00:37:45,280 --> 00:37:48,600 Speaker 1: from a convex mirror. Uh. And of course it provides 677 00:37:48,680 --> 00:37:51,600 Speaker 1: I think, what is a fairly accurate rendering of what 678 00:37:51,680 --> 00:37:53,960 Speaker 1: their reflection would have been. So you're not seeing the 679 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:56,919 Speaker 1: front of them, you were accurately seeing the backs of 680 00:37:56,960 --> 00:37:59,719 Speaker 1: the people that you're looking at in the foreground. Yes, 681 00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:02,960 Speaker 1: you see their backs, you see the rest of the room, 682 00:38:03,000 --> 00:38:05,319 Speaker 1: and then you see something else though. This is and 683 00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:07,560 Speaker 1: this is this is one of the fascinating things about 684 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: this picture. I think we've already talked about. Oh, you 685 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,799 Speaker 1: know times in movies where you you accidentally see a 686 00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:17,600 Speaker 1: reflection of the camera crew. Well, in this painting, that's 687 00:38:17,719 --> 00:38:20,480 Speaker 1: kind of what is happening, or in some interpretations, that's 688 00:38:20,480 --> 00:38:24,120 Speaker 1: what's happening because there are two individuals in a doorway 689 00:38:24,360 --> 00:38:28,880 Speaker 1: in the reflection in that that that strange round uh 690 00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: crenulated mirror, and one of these individuals maybe the artist himself. Yeah, 691 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:35,720 Speaker 1: it's hard to tell because at this point the detail 692 00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:38,920 Speaker 1: is very small, but you see like a framed doorway, 693 00:38:39,239 --> 00:38:42,239 Speaker 1: and um, it looks like somebody dressed in red and 694 00:38:42,360 --> 00:38:44,839 Speaker 1: somebody dressed in blue or standing there. So it could 695 00:38:44,880 --> 00:38:47,360 Speaker 1: be like the blue guy is standing there painting the 696 00:38:47,400 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 1: couple and that is van Ike. Yeah, yeah, there are 697 00:38:51,480 --> 00:38:53,920 Speaker 1: some different interpretations of it. And then there are words 698 00:38:53,960 --> 00:38:57,520 Speaker 1: above the mirror that read Johannes van Eck rules no, 699 00:38:57,600 --> 00:39:02,000 Speaker 1: I mean no, it says he was here. Um, so 700 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:04,800 Speaker 1: a lot has been written about this work, and certainly 701 00:39:04,800 --> 00:39:07,080 Speaker 1: if you haven't seen it, I highly recommend checking it 702 00:39:07,120 --> 00:39:10,720 Speaker 1: out because this is just a beautiful, fascinating painting. UM. 703 00:39:10,880 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: But a lot of the ideas and interpretations come down 704 00:39:13,560 --> 00:39:16,880 Speaker 1: to the eye to vision and van I's understanding of 705 00:39:16,920 --> 00:39:20,680 Speaker 1: optics to relay spiritual ideas concerning the nature of God. 706 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:23,479 Speaker 1: So sometimes you see the mirror in this described as 707 00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,040 Speaker 1: the eye of God. I was reading of a little 708 00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:28,880 Speaker 1: bit more about this mirror in an Optical Revolution in 709 00:39:28,920 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: the Middle Ages, The Hidden Talents of Jen Vanik. And 710 00:39:32,200 --> 00:39:37,640 Speaker 1: this was by Leavin the Vandenable, translated by Kate Connolly. 711 00:39:37,680 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: And this is from the Low Countries dot Com that's 712 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:44,040 Speaker 1: with hyphens the hyphen Low hyphen Countries dot COM's an 713 00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:47,279 Speaker 1: English language website to promote the culture of Flanders and 714 00:39:47,320 --> 00:39:50,799 Speaker 1: the Netherlands. And in this article they point out that 715 00:39:50,880 --> 00:39:54,439 Speaker 1: van Ike had first of all an incredible actually game 716 00:39:54,520 --> 00:39:57,799 Speaker 1: changing talent for painting light in addition to just having 717 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,160 Speaker 1: masterful old painting oil painting tech nieks in general. And 718 00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:03,520 Speaker 1: he also had a knack for observing the interplay of 719 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:06,080 Speaker 1: light and shadow and then of course reproducing that in 720 00:40:06,200 --> 00:40:09,319 Speaker 1: his work. UM. And and this kind of you know, 721 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,520 Speaker 1: leads to the question, well, okay, it's just like a 722 00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: natural ability to you set this natural insight. You just 723 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,680 Speaker 1: have this I for how light is interplaying with the 724 00:40:16,760 --> 00:40:21,239 Speaker 1: natural world. Um, well, that I think some kind of 725 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:24,279 Speaker 1: lean towards that that interpretation. But then there's a there's 726 00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:27,640 Speaker 1: this other hypothesis that he was actually quite well read 727 00:40:27,800 --> 00:40:31,120 Speaker 1: on the topic of optics for the day. So the 728 00:40:31,160 --> 00:40:33,839 Speaker 1: author here writes that, then then I might might have 729 00:40:33,960 --> 00:40:38,319 Speaker 1: learned about optics from the work of Arabic mathematician astronomer 730 00:40:38,480 --> 00:40:41,640 Speaker 1: al Hasan, who I believe we've talked about before, who 731 00:40:41,680 --> 00:40:47,360 Speaker 1: lived through tim forty. In particular al Hasan's book The 732 00:40:47,360 --> 00:40:51,160 Speaker 1: Book of Optics, which was translated into Latin uh and 733 00:40:51,320 --> 00:40:54,080 Speaker 1: was also well known in Europe by the fifteenth century. 734 00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:57,520 Speaker 1: So it presented new theories concerning how we see, how 735 00:40:57,640 --> 00:41:02,640 Speaker 1: mirrors and lenses function, and how in the es are formed. Okay, Now, 736 00:41:02,640 --> 00:41:05,160 Speaker 1: al Hasan is sometimes known as the father of optics, 737 00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:08,799 Speaker 1: and he worked extensively with mirrors and lenses. Um, there's 738 00:41:08,800 --> 00:41:12,280 Speaker 1: something called al Hasan's problem that is named for him. 739 00:41:12,280 --> 00:41:16,280 Speaker 1: It's a this is a mathematical problem in geometrical optics, 740 00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:21,840 Speaker 1: which was actually first posed by Ptolemy in one but 741 00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:26,880 Speaker 1: to which al Hasn't provides an answer in his work Optics. 742 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:29,839 Speaker 1: So you can look up you really should look up 743 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:32,280 Speaker 1: images of the problem if you want a better understanding 744 00:41:32,280 --> 00:41:34,880 Speaker 1: of it. But basically, the basic problem is often described 745 00:41:34,880 --> 00:41:38,480 Speaker 1: as follows. Given a light source and a spherical mirror, 746 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:41,200 Speaker 1: find the point on the mirror where the light will 747 00:41:41,239 --> 00:41:45,359 Speaker 1: be reflected to the eye of an observer. So al 748 00:41:45,440 --> 00:41:50,240 Speaker 1: Hasan solved it with geometry, but it remained unsolved using 749 00:41:50,560 --> 00:41:54,760 Speaker 1: algebraic methods until the twentieth century. So anyway, the idea 750 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:57,120 Speaker 1: here is that perhaps when we're looking at the works 751 00:41:57,400 --> 00:42:00,759 Speaker 1: of an Ike, we're looking at someone who had at 752 00:42:00,840 --> 00:42:03,719 Speaker 1: least some degree of familiarity with these ideas, with these 753 00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:08,120 Speaker 1: uh with these learned concepts about optics and the inner 754 00:42:08,160 --> 00:42:11,880 Speaker 1: workings of mirrors, that that traveled out of the Arab 755 00:42:11,920 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: world into Europe, either in that translation of of his 756 00:42:17,000 --> 00:42:20,680 Speaker 1: book on Optics or perhaps through another text that referred 757 00:42:20,680 --> 00:42:23,319 Speaker 1: back to it. One that the authors mentioned here was 758 00:42:23,440 --> 00:42:28,799 Speaker 1: John Peckham's um Perspective of Communists. And this was an 759 00:42:28,800 --> 00:42:31,960 Speaker 1: author who lived twelve thirty through twelve ninety two, and 760 00:42:32,080 --> 00:42:34,479 Speaker 1: this would have been a text available to fan Ix 761 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,080 Speaker 1: as well. I would imagine that the problem of drawing, 762 00:42:38,960 --> 00:42:42,400 Speaker 1: even if you're currently looking at it, the problem of 763 00:42:42,520 --> 00:42:46,680 Speaker 1: drawing an image as reflected in a convex mirror has 764 00:42:46,719 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 1: got to be really difficult. I said drawing, But I 765 00:42:49,400 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: guess in any way visually rendering for an artist painting 766 00:42:52,080 --> 00:42:55,680 Speaker 1: or drawing or whatever. Um because and I don't know, 767 00:42:56,040 --> 00:42:58,239 Speaker 1: maybe we could hear from painters if I'm wrong about this, 768 00:42:58,280 --> 00:43:01,520 Speaker 1: but my understanding of the way painting works is that 769 00:43:02,239 --> 00:43:06,680 Speaker 1: it is difficult to just purely reproduce an image you're 770 00:43:06,680 --> 00:43:08,799 Speaker 1: looking at as the I sees it. But you have 771 00:43:08,840 --> 00:43:13,319 Speaker 1: to kind of rely on some stereotypical forms to reproduce 772 00:43:13,400 --> 00:43:16,080 Speaker 1: the image on the on the painting. So, like you, 773 00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:18,560 Speaker 1: you have in your mind sort of standard forms of 774 00:43:18,600 --> 00:43:21,200 Speaker 1: things like what you know, how a hand works, how 775 00:43:21,239 --> 00:43:23,359 Speaker 1: an arm is, how a face is, and then you 776 00:43:23,360 --> 00:43:27,360 Speaker 1: are taking those standard forms and reproducing them with the 777 00:43:27,400 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: information of the image that you're looking at right now 778 00:43:30,120 --> 00:43:33,360 Speaker 1: to just sort of fill in the detail. But I 779 00:43:33,360 --> 00:43:36,160 Speaker 1: would think those standard forms wouldn't really work for an 780 00:43:36,200 --> 00:43:40,359 Speaker 1: image that's being distorted by a curved mirror. Yeah, Now, 781 00:43:40,400 --> 00:43:45,040 Speaker 1: if you want to hear more about how mirrors impacted 782 00:43:45,120 --> 00:43:49,319 Speaker 1: the world of of painting. Our episode on the camera 783 00:43:49,360 --> 00:43:51,320 Speaker 1: obscurea goes into that a little bit in the different 784 00:43:51,719 --> 00:43:55,080 Speaker 1: ideas and hypotheses concerning the use of the camera obscura 785 00:43:55,160 --> 00:44:00,280 Speaker 1: as a means of of augmenting the creative process of painting. 786 00:44:01,000 --> 00:44:04,080 Speaker 1: But but even without getting into this idea of using 787 00:44:04,080 --> 00:44:07,680 Speaker 1: a camera obscura to project something onto a canvas and 788 00:44:07,719 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: then use that as sort of a scaffolding on which 789 00:44:10,160 --> 00:44:13,080 Speaker 1: you create your art, I think the one of the 790 00:44:13,160 --> 00:44:16,440 Speaker 1: ideas here that's that's really Tantalizing's just the the the 791 00:44:16,480 --> 00:44:19,319 Speaker 1: more that these artists were able to understand what they 792 00:44:19,320 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: were seeing, how they were seeing, and how light was working, 793 00:44:22,719 --> 00:44:26,359 Speaker 1: how shadow worked, enabled them to better capture it on 794 00:44:26,400 --> 00:44:30,719 Speaker 1: the canvas um, which, on one on one hand, like 795 00:44:30,760 --> 00:44:32,680 Speaker 1: this this totally makes sense. But on the other I 796 00:44:32,920 --> 00:44:35,480 Speaker 1: do feel like this has to make a special kind 797 00:44:35,520 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 1: of sense too individuals who, um, who are well versed 798 00:44:40,480 --> 00:44:44,120 Speaker 1: in painting and the visual arts, you know, uh, because 799 00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:46,799 Speaker 1: because yeah, because yeah, what's the difference between painting light 800 00:44:46,880 --> 00:44:49,320 Speaker 1: and shadow if you don't know what light and shadow 801 00:44:49,360 --> 00:44:53,160 Speaker 1: really are and painting light and shadow when you you 802 00:44:53,239 --> 00:44:56,200 Speaker 1: have a better understanding of of the the optical reality 803 00:44:56,360 --> 00:45:00,120 Speaker 1: of of what you're seeing. Yeah, just off, Mike and 804 00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:01,840 Speaker 1: I were discussing whether this is the end of the 805 00:45:01,840 --> 00:45:04,359 Speaker 1: Mirror series or whether we're coming back for more. And 806 00:45:04,560 --> 00:45:07,239 Speaker 1: here here's the mind blower. We haven't made up our 807 00:45:07,280 --> 00:45:10,640 Speaker 1: minds yet, so you'll just have to be out there dangling, 808 00:45:10,760 --> 00:45:12,680 Speaker 1: not knowing whether the next episode is going to be 809 00:45:12,719 --> 00:45:15,439 Speaker 1: something new or whether the mirror journey continues. But there's 810 00:45:15,480 --> 00:45:18,040 Speaker 1: a million more interesting things we could talk about, so 811 00:45:18,360 --> 00:45:21,359 Speaker 1: maybe more mirrors or maybe onto something else. Yeah, and 812 00:45:21,400 --> 00:45:24,320 Speaker 1: even if the next episode we do is not about mirrors, 813 00:45:24,440 --> 00:45:26,120 Speaker 1: that doesn't mean we can't come back and do mirrors. 814 00:45:26,160 --> 00:45:30,399 Speaker 1: So certainly, if there's anything that you feel that we 815 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,960 Speaker 1: we missed or we skipped over, or something you you 816 00:45:33,040 --> 00:45:35,120 Speaker 1: want to know about that we didn't cover in this 817 00:45:35,239 --> 00:45:38,040 Speaker 1: Mirror saga, then let us know. We would love to 818 00:45:38,080 --> 00:45:40,400 Speaker 1: hear from you. In the meantime, if you would like 819 00:45:40,440 --> 00:45:42,040 Speaker 1: to listen to other episodes of stuff to blow your mind, 820 00:45:42,040 --> 00:45:43,840 Speaker 1: if you want to catch up on all these Mirror episodes, 821 00:45:44,320 --> 00:45:48,440 Speaker 1: or look up those photography, Camera Obscura, etcetera. Uh, you 822 00:45:48,480 --> 00:45:51,600 Speaker 1: can find all of our episodes in uh, this Stuff 823 00:45:51,600 --> 00:45:53,520 Speaker 1: to Blow your Mind podcast feed, and you'll find that 824 00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,960 Speaker 1: feed wherever you get your podcast. Core episodes on Tuesdays 825 00:45:56,960 --> 00:46:00,480 Speaker 1: and Thursday's Artifact on Wednesday, listener mail on Mondays. On Friday, 826 00:46:00,480 --> 00:46:02,759 Speaker 1: we do a little a little weird house cinema. That's 827 00:46:02,760 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 1: when we set aside most of the science and we 828 00:46:05,400 --> 00:46:07,160 Speaker 1: just talked about a weird film for a little bit. 829 00:46:07,520 --> 00:46:10,640 Speaker 1: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer Seth 830 00:46:10,719 --> 00:46:13,200 Speaker 1: Nicholas Johnson. If you would like to get in touch 831 00:46:13,239 --> 00:46:15,520 Speaker 1: with us with feedback on this episode or any other 832 00:46:15,640 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 1: to suggest topic for the future, just to say hello, 833 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,759 Speaker 1: you can email us at contact at stuff to Blow 834 00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:30,640 Speaker 1: your Mind dot com. Stuff to Blow Your Mind is 835 00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:33,360 Speaker 1: production of I Heart Radio. For more podcasts for my 836 00:46:33,400 --> 00:46:36,480 Speaker 1: heart Radio, visit the iHeart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or 837 00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:46,920 Speaker 1: wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.