1 00:00:00,760 --> 00:00:05,200 Speaker 1: Tt my thermostat empower Bill tell me like, hey, you 2 00:00:05,240 --> 00:00:10,160 Speaker 1: know you're using twenty percent less electricity than your neighbor. 3 00:00:10,840 --> 00:00:13,680 Speaker 1: And I would always tell people I'm not competitive, but baby, 4 00:00:13,760 --> 00:00:16,680 Speaker 1: I want to be number one. Okay, I want to 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:20,079 Speaker 1: use so little electricity. I'm turning the lights off. I'm 6 00:00:20,079 --> 00:00:23,240 Speaker 1: doing everything they taught us dark I'm just shuffling around. 7 00:00:23,280 --> 00:00:25,160 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, is it hot? I will switch into 8 00:00:25,160 --> 00:00:28,760 Speaker 1: a tank top. Okay. I want to use so little 9 00:00:28,760 --> 00:00:31,440 Speaker 1: electricity that they think this home is vacant. 10 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 2: Just so you can win. 11 00:00:32,800 --> 00:00:35,680 Speaker 1: I want to win. I want to win. I am 12 00:00:35,680 --> 00:00:36,879 Speaker 1: not ashamed. I want to win. 13 00:00:37,080 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 2: My friends got the eye of the tiger. 14 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:41,239 Speaker 1: I want to be the eco friendly big boss. Okay. 15 00:00:41,520 --> 00:00:44,640 Speaker 1: How did gamifications sneak into my energy use? And why 16 00:00:44,680 --> 00:00:47,320 Speaker 1: is it taking over my life? I'm t T and 17 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,040 Speaker 1: I'm Zachiah and from Spotify. 18 00:00:49,240 --> 00:01:00,600 Speaker 2: This is Dope Labs. 19 00:01:16,160 --> 00:01:19,840 Speaker 3: Welcome to Dope Labs, a weekly podcast that mixes hardcore science, 20 00:01:19,959 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 3: pop culture, and a healthy dose of friendship. 21 00:01:22,360 --> 00:01:25,560 Speaker 1: This week, we're talking all about games. Specifically, we wanted 22 00:01:25,560 --> 00:01:28,200 Speaker 1: to know more about the nature of games, the gamification 23 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:31,360 Speaker 1: of life, and the difference between the two because I'm struggling. 24 00:01:33,160 --> 00:01:35,400 Speaker 3: You play a lot of games, though I do. You 25 00:01:35,440 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 3: have a lot of games on your phone and you 26 00:01:37,280 --> 00:01:38,080 Speaker 3: play video games. 27 00:01:38,480 --> 00:01:39,840 Speaker 1: How do you know what's on my phone? 28 00:01:39,959 --> 00:01:43,839 Speaker 2: Back back back, Because I know you. I've been knowing 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 2: you for forty five years. We're not that long. 30 00:01:50,480 --> 00:01:55,800 Speaker 1: Okay. Sometimes I play games. I don't even realize I'm 31 00:01:55,800 --> 00:01:58,840 Speaker 1: playing games. But like crossword puzzles, those are kind of 32 00:01:58,880 --> 00:02:03,000 Speaker 1: games relaxing for me. Sudoku Sometimes when I send little 33 00:02:03,040 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: notes in the mail out at a sadoku, if I 34 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: know people are game friendly, I know not to send 35 00:02:06,360 --> 00:02:08,440 Speaker 1: you a Sadoku. You don't like puzzles and things like that. 36 00:02:08,400 --> 00:02:11,120 Speaker 3: No, I don't like Wordle and things like that are okay, 37 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 3: But now they have things like Wordle Unlimited, where it's 38 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:17,400 Speaker 3: like Wordle that's just never ending. You can play a 39 00:02:17,520 --> 00:02:20,360 Speaker 3: thousand wordle games back to back to back, and I say, 40 00:02:20,760 --> 00:02:24,720 Speaker 3: no way, I can focus my energy for thirty minutes 41 00:02:24,760 --> 00:02:26,600 Speaker 3: to get this one word. But I'm not trying to 42 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 3: keep going and going and going. That's just gonna stress 43 00:02:29,160 --> 00:02:31,320 Speaker 3: me out. Yeah, when it's done, it's done, it's done. 44 00:02:31,480 --> 00:02:33,399 Speaker 3: Go remove yourself from my eyeballs. 45 00:02:34,720 --> 00:02:36,440 Speaker 1: All right, let's get into the recitation. 46 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:49,520 Speaker 3: What do we know TC, Well, we know that games 47 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,440 Speaker 3: have been a part of human life for a very 48 00:02:51,520 --> 00:02:52,280 Speaker 3: long time. 49 00:02:52,760 --> 00:02:54,760 Speaker 1: Yes, this is not a very long time. But even 50 00:02:54,760 --> 00:02:56,520 Speaker 1: when I was a kid, when I really reflect, you know, 51 00:02:56,560 --> 00:02:59,160 Speaker 1: people in my family were playing games jacks with the 52 00:02:59,200 --> 00:03:01,400 Speaker 1: ball and the little right dominoes. 53 00:03:01,600 --> 00:03:02,680 Speaker 2: Yo, that's old school. 54 00:03:02,919 --> 00:03:04,880 Speaker 3: But you know what I always think of when I 55 00:03:04,919 --> 00:03:08,320 Speaker 3: think of like early early age sports, it's the Mayans. 56 00:03:08,600 --> 00:03:10,560 Speaker 3: So the Mayans had this ball game. 57 00:03:10,639 --> 00:03:11,960 Speaker 2: M have you ever heard of it? 58 00:03:12,320 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 1: No, tell me, girl. 59 00:03:13,680 --> 00:03:16,800 Speaker 3: It's a rubber ball and the sides of the ball 60 00:03:16,960 --> 00:03:19,640 Speaker 3: is like kind of like maybe a baseball size, I think, okay. 61 00:03:19,800 --> 00:03:23,560 Speaker 3: And then there's this stone ring that's on a wall 62 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:25,640 Speaker 3: and the object of the game is to try and 63 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,040 Speaker 3: get it in there. But you can't use your hands, 64 00:03:28,240 --> 00:03:29,919 Speaker 3: so you have to use other parts of your body. 65 00:03:29,960 --> 00:03:33,040 Speaker 3: And this is it's like really high up. So they're 66 00:03:33,080 --> 00:03:35,720 Speaker 3: using their backs, they're using their shoulders, they're using their heads. 67 00:03:35,880 --> 00:03:39,040 Speaker 3: And so that is one of like the first sports 68 00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:42,280 Speaker 3: I think that's been recorded was from the Mayans, which 69 00:03:42,320 --> 00:03:43,280 Speaker 3: is really cool. 70 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: It really is. I hadn't heard of that before. Wow, 71 00:03:46,080 --> 00:03:47,560 Speaker 1: And that's really far back. I thought you were going 72 00:03:47,640 --> 00:03:51,720 Speaker 1: to say, like chess, let me tell you something you 73 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,600 Speaker 1: didn't want to see me in the third and fourth grade, 74 00:03:54,440 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: I had a little board. 75 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,520 Speaker 2: I know he was hustling people. I know it. 76 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:00,600 Speaker 1: I had some of my favorite stones. I always wanted 77 00:04:00,640 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: to like I had three or four. I always want 78 00:04:03,440 --> 00:04:06,600 Speaker 1: to end this one little cut out. Oh my gosh, 79 00:04:06,680 --> 00:04:08,400 Speaker 1: this is making me think of so many games we 80 00:04:08,440 --> 00:04:14,280 Speaker 1: played growing up, even hand games, yes, down. 81 00:04:14,720 --> 00:04:15,680 Speaker 2: From bank to banky. 82 00:04:16,000 --> 00:04:22,880 Speaker 1: How many doctors did it take you? Who was making 83 00:04:22,880 --> 00:04:27,200 Speaker 1: that stuff up? And how was it spreading around so fast? 84 00:04:27,360 --> 00:04:28,679 Speaker 1: Without social media? 85 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,120 Speaker 3: It felt like no matter where you were in the country, 86 00:04:31,200 --> 00:04:33,080 Speaker 3: everybody knew these games. 87 00:04:33,400 --> 00:04:36,479 Speaker 1: How go to my cousins, go from North Carolina to 88 00:04:36,600 --> 00:04:39,280 Speaker 1: Georgia to visit them, they know the games. Go visit 89 00:04:39,279 --> 00:04:41,159 Speaker 1: my cousins up in New Jersey, they know the same 90 00:04:41,200 --> 00:04:43,400 Speaker 1: hand games. They're singing the same nursery rhymes or whatever 91 00:04:43,440 --> 00:04:44,080 Speaker 1: those things were. 92 00:04:44,560 --> 00:04:47,080 Speaker 2: How they're just so embedded in our culture. 93 00:04:47,400 --> 00:04:50,359 Speaker 3: Yeah, game plan, Yes, it's a really great way to 94 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 3: bond and connect with people. There are also a lot 95 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,599 Speaker 3: of apps out there than social media and services that 96 00:04:57,920 --> 00:05:02,000 Speaker 3: have started incorporating games into them. Like the first thing 97 00:05:02,040 --> 00:05:06,039 Speaker 3: I think of is the apple Watch. That's a game. 98 00:05:06,320 --> 00:05:10,400 Speaker 3: You know, it's tracking your steps, it's tracking your exercise, 99 00:05:10,560 --> 00:05:13,560 Speaker 3: how much you're standing, and sometimes you're just competing with 100 00:05:13,600 --> 00:05:15,599 Speaker 3: you so you can see what you've been doing for 101 00:05:15,640 --> 00:05:17,920 Speaker 3: the last month. So it's still a game, but it's 102 00:05:17,960 --> 00:05:20,120 Speaker 3: just one player. But then also you can link up 103 00:05:20,120 --> 00:05:22,000 Speaker 3: with other people's apple Watches, so then you have a 104 00:05:22,120 --> 00:05:25,279 Speaker 3: multiplayer game. You can have challenges and all types of stuff 105 00:05:25,279 --> 00:05:25,560 Speaker 3: like that. 106 00:05:25,720 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 1: Yes, my friends are competitive. I lose those challenges every time. 107 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:33,479 Speaker 1: Kate from our Metals episode, Kate's closing her rings every day. Okay, 108 00:05:33,520 --> 00:05:34,440 Speaker 1: well I can't keep up. 109 00:05:34,480 --> 00:05:38,640 Speaker 2: I can't keep up and stuff though up there. 110 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:43,640 Speaker 1: Okay, you know. So you've made a really good point 111 00:05:43,680 --> 00:05:46,080 Speaker 1: to see that these apps and services are bringing in 112 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,520 Speaker 1: different elements of gaming, like points, systems and achievements that unlocked. 113 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:54,960 Speaker 1: All of those are some of the foundational elements of gaming. 114 00:05:55,120 --> 00:05:56,800 Speaker 1: But what else do we want to know? 115 00:05:57,040 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: I think it would be helpful to know or understand 116 00:05:59,560 --> 00:06:03,320 Speaker 3: why we play games. I think pretty much everybody feels 117 00:06:03,360 --> 00:06:06,159 Speaker 3: like they are open to playing games. But why is 118 00:06:06,200 --> 00:06:09,400 Speaker 3: it that we do play games? What connections are we 119 00:06:09,440 --> 00:06:09,960 Speaker 3: trying to make? 120 00:06:10,279 --> 00:06:13,240 Speaker 1: Yeah? And then I also think as we see the 121 00:06:13,400 --> 00:06:17,080 Speaker 1: adoption of gamification. Is that the same thing as games? 122 00:06:18,000 --> 00:06:21,160 Speaker 1: Where do we draw the line between gamification and leveraging 123 00:06:21,200 --> 00:06:23,600 Speaker 1: certain parts of it and actually being a game? Yeah? 124 00:06:23,880 --> 00:06:24,760 Speaker 2: A game or trick? 125 00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:29,080 Speaker 1: I feel like that's a great starting point. There's probably 126 00:06:29,120 --> 00:06:30,800 Speaker 1: so much we don't even know to ask. 127 00:06:30,760 --> 00:06:33,280 Speaker 2: Right, trick or tree, Let's jump into the dissection. 128 00:06:45,720 --> 00:06:48,200 Speaker 1: Our guest for today's lab is doctor Twin. 129 00:06:48,480 --> 00:06:52,240 Speaker 4: My name is t Newinn. I'm a associate professor of 130 00:06:52,240 --> 00:06:56,320 Speaker 4: philosophy at University of Utah. I was supposed to be 131 00:06:56,360 --> 00:07:00,679 Speaker 4: an expert on fairly conventional issues and epistemology and meta ethics, 132 00:07:00,760 --> 00:07:04,320 Speaker 4: like old school questions like what is knowledge and what 133 00:07:04,520 --> 00:07:07,240 Speaker 4: is the good? And now I've walked down some weird 134 00:07:07,320 --> 00:07:15,760 Speaker 4: path where I am a philosophical expert on games, porn, trust, transparency, metrics, Twitter, 135 00:07:16,320 --> 00:07:20,200 Speaker 4: and weird that I think wasn't supposed to be part 136 00:07:20,200 --> 00:07:21,080 Speaker 4: of my job description. 137 00:07:21,440 --> 00:07:25,800 Speaker 3: Professor Nowan's book, Games Agency as Art explores games as 138 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:29,240 Speaker 3: a specific and very special type of art form and 139 00:07:29,480 --> 00:07:32,440 Speaker 3: argues that games are essential part of our systems of 140 00:07:32,480 --> 00:07:34,400 Speaker 3: communication and our art. 141 00:07:34,720 --> 00:07:36,880 Speaker 1: We started with the basics and asked Professor to win 142 00:07:37,000 --> 00:07:38,880 Speaker 1: what exactly is a game. 143 00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:42,320 Speaker 4: My favorite definition of a game is from this philosopher, 144 00:07:42,320 --> 00:07:45,400 Speaker 4: Bernard Suits. The book is called The Grasshopper Games Life 145 00:07:45,440 --> 00:07:47,480 Speaker 4: in Utopia, and he tries to define a game. But 146 00:07:47,520 --> 00:07:51,240 Speaker 4: the short version is that to play a game is 147 00:07:51,280 --> 00:07:55,680 Speaker 4: to voluntarily taking on unnecessary obstacles to make possible this 148 00:07:55,800 --> 00:07:57,200 Speaker 4: activity of struggling. 149 00:07:57,400 --> 00:08:01,000 Speaker 3: Professor Newan says, with every game, you have a goal, 150 00:08:01,280 --> 00:08:04,680 Speaker 3: but what makes it a game is these arbitrary challenges 151 00:08:04,720 --> 00:08:07,360 Speaker 3: that make achieving that goal more difficult. 152 00:08:07,560 --> 00:08:10,640 Speaker 1: One example is a puzzle t t. You hate puzzles. 153 00:08:10,680 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: I hate puzzles. The end goal is to be able 154 00:08:12,960 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 1: to look at a complete picture. So if we didn't 155 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:17,520 Speaker 1: want to make it a game, we could just buy 156 00:08:17,560 --> 00:08:18,760 Speaker 1: the picture. Why don't we do that? 157 00:08:18,760 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 2: That's what I do. That's exactly what I do. I'm 158 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:23,640 Speaker 2: just gonna buy a nice picture. 159 00:08:23,800 --> 00:08:27,440 Speaker 1: Well that's not the point, I guess. 160 00:08:27,480 --> 00:08:30,200 Speaker 3: The point is the obstacles in the picture is cut 161 00:08:30,240 --> 00:08:33,560 Speaker 3: into a thousand tiny little pieces that we have to 162 00:08:34,040 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 3: well not we, that you have. 163 00:08:35,440 --> 00:08:38,440 Speaker 2: To put together in order to see it. Here's another example. 164 00:08:38,880 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 4: So in basketball, the goal is to pass the ball 165 00:08:41,520 --> 00:08:44,480 Speaker 4: through the hoop, but it's not just passing the ball 166 00:08:44,480 --> 00:08:46,720 Speaker 4: through the hoop, because if that was valuable, you would 167 00:08:46,760 --> 00:08:49,640 Speaker 4: just go to a basketball court by yourself with a 168 00:08:49,640 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 4: step ladder at midnight and just infinantly do it. It's 169 00:08:52,679 --> 00:08:55,640 Speaker 4: not valuable unless it was done under certain constrems. 170 00:08:56,080 --> 00:09:00,480 Speaker 1: Yes, so adding an opposing team who's also trying to score, 171 00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:03,680 Speaker 1: adding a clock, all of those things, those are additional 172 00:09:03,679 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 1: obstacles that make it a game. 173 00:09:05,600 --> 00:09:09,120 Speaker 4: That must mean that the value of the activity, whatever 174 00:09:09,160 --> 00:09:11,480 Speaker 4: it is, has to lie in the character of the 175 00:09:11,520 --> 00:09:13,760 Speaker 4: struggle and not just getting the stuff at the end. 176 00:09:14,280 --> 00:09:17,120 Speaker 3: Yes, the struggle is real and the struggle is fun, 177 00:09:17,360 --> 00:09:18,400 Speaker 3: according to Tea. 178 00:09:18,480 --> 00:09:21,520 Speaker 1: But that's not the only value games have. Professor Nowinn 179 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,240 Speaker 1: says that we're also drawn to games because they give 180 00:09:24,280 --> 00:09:27,360 Speaker 1: us something specific to focus on for a finite amount 181 00:09:27,400 --> 00:09:27,760 Speaker 1: of time. 182 00:09:28,040 --> 00:09:31,440 Speaker 4: What games are for me are sculpted activities. The game 183 00:09:31,480 --> 00:09:35,240 Speaker 4: designer is setting the goals and then giving you a 184 00:09:35,280 --> 00:09:38,240 Speaker 4: set of abilities. The amazing part of a game is 185 00:09:38,240 --> 00:09:39,960 Speaker 4: that you know what you're doing and for a little 186 00:09:40,000 --> 00:09:42,400 Speaker 4: bit of time you just pay attention to that. When 187 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:44,920 Speaker 4: I'm rock climbing, I'm just paying attention to the rock. 188 00:09:45,240 --> 00:09:48,200 Speaker 4: When I'm playing one of my absurd, stupid complex German 189 00:09:48,640 --> 00:09:52,680 Speaker 4: board games. I'm just paying attention to the economic status 190 00:09:52,720 --> 00:09:56,360 Speaker 4: of my railway investments. It's so pure, it's so clear 191 00:09:56,679 --> 00:09:59,839 Speaker 4: for those of us that have trouble having moment of 192 00:10:00,040 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 4: purity and focus because the world is like this, because 193 00:10:02,920 --> 00:10:05,320 Speaker 4: that's like vomiting on you all the time. That purity 194 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 4: is magical. And it's also in games safe because games 195 00:10:08,920 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 4: are temporary and set aside for the rest of the world. 196 00:10:11,520 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 4: You can focus intensely because you're in a little artificial 197 00:10:15,160 --> 00:10:16,720 Speaker 4: space that's going to end. 198 00:10:17,040 --> 00:10:19,520 Speaker 3: And in fact, a twenty nineteen study talks about the 199 00:10:19,559 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 3: psychological benefits of playing board games. It links playing them 200 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,240 Speaker 3: to a decrease in depression and an increase in healthy 201 00:10:27,280 --> 00:10:31,920 Speaker 3: behavior modifications like healthier eating, quitting smoking, and safe sex. 202 00:10:32,160 --> 00:10:35,400 Speaker 1: And there are even more benefits to gameplaying. Games create 203 00:10:35,480 --> 00:10:39,200 Speaker 1: connection between people. In his book, Professor Nowan actually argues 204 00:10:39,240 --> 00:10:42,080 Speaker 1: that games are a special technique for communication. 205 00:10:42,480 --> 00:10:44,400 Speaker 4: One of the neat things about games is because there's 206 00:10:44,440 --> 00:10:48,559 Speaker 4: such tight, constrained spaces that they create this weird intimacy. 207 00:10:48,600 --> 00:10:50,040 Speaker 4: I mean, I think some of the most intimate I've 208 00:10:50,080 --> 00:10:52,160 Speaker 4: been with another person's mind is playing chess against them. 209 00:10:52,280 --> 00:10:55,240 Speaker 4: You're like in each other's mind, and that's possible because 210 00:10:55,280 --> 00:10:58,679 Speaker 4: the goals are so narrow and the space of possible 211 00:10:58,760 --> 00:11:01,920 Speaker 4: moves is so narrow. Because of that artificiality, you get 212 00:11:01,960 --> 00:11:05,280 Speaker 4: both the pleasure of like clarity of action and purpose 213 00:11:05,360 --> 00:11:08,560 Speaker 4: and then the pleasure of like near telepathy, which I 214 00:11:08,559 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 4: think you get in wordle. 215 00:11:09,760 --> 00:11:13,040 Speaker 3: Right, wordle Okay, If you don't know a wordle is, 216 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,320 Speaker 3: I don't think you have access to technology or something like, 217 00:11:17,360 --> 00:11:20,520 Speaker 3: you have not been on the internet. Because wordle has 218 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:24,600 Speaker 3: taken the world by storm. So it was created in 219 00:11:24,640 --> 00:11:28,400 Speaker 3: October of twenty twenty one, and it gained the largest 220 00:11:28,400 --> 00:11:31,439 Speaker 3: amount of its popularity in December of twenty twenty one. 221 00:11:31,480 --> 00:11:33,480 Speaker 3: But people are still playing wordle two day. 222 00:11:33,720 --> 00:11:34,000 Speaker 1: Yes. 223 00:11:34,080 --> 00:11:36,839 Speaker 3: The premise is there is one word, just one word, 224 00:11:36,960 --> 00:11:39,760 Speaker 3: a five letter word, each day, and you have to 225 00:11:39,840 --> 00:11:42,360 Speaker 3: figure out what that word is. And with every guest 226 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:45,120 Speaker 3: you get clues based on the letters that you chose, 227 00:11:45,520 --> 00:11:48,319 Speaker 3: and then you get six tries, and your goal is 228 00:11:48,360 --> 00:11:50,880 Speaker 3: to get the word before the six. 229 00:11:50,760 --> 00:11:53,520 Speaker 2: Tries run out. Everyone is playing wordle. If you've seen 230 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,760 Speaker 2: those green squares, yellow squares, that's what it is. 231 00:11:57,040 --> 00:12:00,040 Speaker 1: I remember posting wordle on January ninth. 232 00:12:00,040 --> 00:12:01,600 Speaker 2: And I had no clue what word was. 233 00:12:01,600 --> 00:12:03,560 Speaker 1: At that point, I sent it to somebody and they 234 00:12:03,559 --> 00:12:05,200 Speaker 1: sent a question mark back, and when I posted it 235 00:12:05,200 --> 00:12:07,400 Speaker 1: on Instagram, yeah, a lot of people were saying they 236 00:12:07,440 --> 00:12:09,920 Speaker 1: didn't know, and only maybe two or three people knew 237 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,360 Speaker 1: what wordle was. They knew what my squares were. 238 00:12:13,280 --> 00:12:16,160 Speaker 2: Now there's so many new iterations. There's wordle, there's qirdle, 239 00:12:16,280 --> 00:12:21,040 Speaker 2: there's nerdle, there's world there's hurdle, so many. 240 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:24,400 Speaker 1: Different types m Professor Newan actually wrote this Twitter thread 241 00:12:24,440 --> 00:12:28,720 Speaker 1: about what made wordles so successful, and that thread went viral. 242 00:12:28,960 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: He says, when you first played wordle, your first thought 243 00:12:31,480 --> 00:12:35,360 Speaker 1: is wait, you just guess, but slowly you realize you 244 00:12:35,360 --> 00:12:38,439 Speaker 1: have more agency than you thought, with clues about letter 245 00:12:38,480 --> 00:12:42,160 Speaker 1: possibility and letter frequency of each word. So the experience 246 00:12:42,240 --> 00:12:44,800 Speaker 1: is about discovering this power you didn't know you had 247 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,800 Speaker 1: and all the agency that comes with it. But the 248 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:50,360 Speaker 1: social part of worldle that Professor and Winn talked about 249 00:12:50,480 --> 00:12:53,240 Speaker 1: is what he says really sets it apart. Specifically, the 250 00:12:53,280 --> 00:12:57,320 Speaker 1: graphic design of that shareable wordal chart. I know, I 251 00:12:57,440 --> 00:12:59,839 Speaker 1: know you have seen that in one of your fees 252 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 1: out on Twitter, on Instagram, on Facebook. You've seen it 253 00:13:02,120 --> 00:13:03,480 Speaker 1: somewhere because. 254 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:07,920 Speaker 4: Of the graphic design, you get to see someone else's 255 00:13:07,960 --> 00:13:10,400 Speaker 4: a gentile journey, like in a second. I think actually 256 00:13:10,440 --> 00:13:12,200 Speaker 4: the coolest thing about word is you can look and 257 00:13:12,240 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 4: you'd be like, oh, you were there, aren't you? And 258 00:13:14,800 --> 00:13:16,920 Speaker 4: then you pulled it out. How long did it take you? 259 00:13:16,960 --> 00:13:19,600 Speaker 4: Between line four and five? You can just see it. 260 00:13:19,800 --> 00:13:22,160 Speaker 1: And so once you get this definition of what a 261 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,280 Speaker 1: game is, like this end goal that would be completely 262 00:13:25,280 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: possible and doable if you didn't have all these obstacles 263 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 1: that are basically artificial. 264 00:13:30,520 --> 00:13:30,960 Speaker 2: In the way. 265 00:13:31,120 --> 00:13:31,320 Speaker 1: Right. 266 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:34,560 Speaker 3: Yeah, when you start thinking about that, you really realized that, 267 00:13:34,640 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 3: like we kind of grew up within the culture of games. 268 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 269 00:13:37,760 --> 00:13:42,520 Speaker 1: I can remember playing Canasta after school with teachers of 270 00:13:42,640 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: after school program. 271 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,760 Speaker 3: Yeah, in high school, we were playing skip Bow, we 272 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:50,720 Speaker 3: were playing Uno, we were playing all types of card games. 273 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:52,599 Speaker 1: And it really makes me think about video games in 274 00:13:52,640 --> 00:13:56,920 Speaker 1: the portrayal of video gamers in like mainstream media. But 275 00:13:57,080 --> 00:13:59,000 Speaker 1: if you were to ask most people, they probably wouldn't 276 00:13:59,000 --> 00:14:01,439 Speaker 1: say they consider themselves gamers, right. 277 00:14:01,679 --> 00:14:04,640 Speaker 3: But based on what we've learned from Professor Nowan, so 278 00:14:04,760 --> 00:14:08,480 Speaker 3: far we might all be gamersh feels like it. 279 00:14:08,840 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 4: I think there's this weird, weird inattention to play in games, 280 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,600 Speaker 4: and despite the fact that it's one of the oldest, 281 00:14:15,600 --> 00:14:18,480 Speaker 4: most central parts of human culture. From my perspective, now 282 00:14:18,720 --> 00:14:21,200 Speaker 4: it seems totally weird that the history, at least of 283 00:14:21,280 --> 00:14:26,360 Speaker 4: Western European philosophy has spent so much time working on society, ethics, 284 00:14:26,840 --> 00:14:29,400 Speaker 4: the meaning of life, what counts as a good life, 285 00:14:29,600 --> 00:14:33,320 Speaker 4: and the shelf of stuff about games in play is 286 00:14:33,360 --> 00:14:35,600 Speaker 4: almost non existent. Like, how did we get to the 287 00:14:35,640 --> 00:14:39,640 Speaker 4: point we thought we could understand humanity without this stuff. 288 00:14:39,880 --> 00:14:43,240 Speaker 1: So, according to Professor t not only our games the 289 00:14:43,320 --> 00:14:46,200 Speaker 1: central part of human life, and not only is it 290 00:14:46,240 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 1: possible that we're all really gamers, but he kind of 291 00:14:49,920 --> 00:14:53,560 Speaker 1: proposes that games could actually be the meaning of life. 292 00:14:53,680 --> 00:14:55,680 Speaker 4: Burner two, to the end of his book, has this 293 00:14:55,880 --> 00:14:58,600 Speaker 4: funky argument that always pisses my students off, where he says, 294 00:14:58,920 --> 00:15:01,960 Speaker 4: imagine utopia, we've used technology to solve all our problems. 295 00:15:02,000 --> 00:15:04,520 Speaker 4: What would we do all day? We'd either play games 296 00:15:04,640 --> 00:15:07,040 Speaker 4: ord be bored out of our minds. So games must 297 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:08,320 Speaker 4: be the purpose of life. 298 00:15:08,560 --> 00:15:10,840 Speaker 3: And doctor Nowe is not the first person to think 299 00:15:10,880 --> 00:15:13,680 Speaker 3: about this in this way. It actually goes all the 300 00:15:13,680 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 3: way back to Aristotle. 301 00:15:15,080 --> 00:15:17,880 Speaker 4: Aristotle thought though the value in human life was not 302 00:15:18,320 --> 00:15:21,200 Speaker 4: you made, but good quality activity. So another way to 303 00:15:21,200 --> 00:15:23,040 Speaker 4: put it is the meaning of life must be an 304 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:26,160 Speaker 4: activity that is valuable in and of itself. The philosopher'strength 305 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,800 Speaker 4: is autotelec activity, activity that's valuable not to get something else, 306 00:15:29,840 --> 00:15:32,280 Speaker 4: but in doing itself. And I think Toods just saying 307 00:15:32,480 --> 00:15:36,520 Speaker 4: what is the ultimate autotelecactivity, it's games, that is the 308 00:15:36,600 --> 00:15:38,800 Speaker 4: struggle that you choose for its own sake. 309 00:15:44,080 --> 00:15:47,280 Speaker 1: Well, if we accept this that games are the meaning 310 00:15:47,320 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: of life, and you know it is the activity for 311 00:15:49,640 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 1: activity's sake, then they must be pretty valuable, right Like, 312 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:56,480 Speaker 1: if this is what we're all doing, If that's what 313 00:15:56,560 --> 00:15:59,440 Speaker 1: the big picture is, how did we capture the value 314 00:15:59,600 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: of games? And that's something Professor wid talks about in 315 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: his book thinking of games as like an art form. 316 00:16:05,240 --> 00:16:08,000 Speaker 4: One of my suspicions is until lately, it was much 317 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 4: easier to sell a painting than to sell a game 318 00:16:10,080 --> 00:16:11,760 Speaker 4: if you think the painting is beautiful and you just 319 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:13,600 Speaker 4: buy the painting. But I think if you think what's 320 00:16:13,640 --> 00:16:16,120 Speaker 4: beautiful in the game is your experience of doing it, 321 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 4: that's not as transferable between people. 322 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:18,400 Speaker 1: Right. 323 00:16:18,440 --> 00:16:20,720 Speaker 4: That's something that's going to vary from player to player. 324 00:16:20,920 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 3: What's cool about thinking about games is art is that 325 00:16:23,320 --> 00:16:26,680 Speaker 3: it's art that we are active participants in. Looking at 326 00:16:26,720 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 3: a painting isn't as active as playing a game. 327 00:16:30,160 --> 00:16:32,960 Speaker 4: There's this obsession with art objects that are stable, that 328 00:16:33,120 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 4: is like the painting is the same for everyone, But 329 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,480 Speaker 4: true games are not stable because people are free during them. 330 00:16:39,600 --> 00:16:42,480 Speaker 4: And the really remarkable thing about games is that you're 331 00:16:42,520 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 4: free in games and what you do it becomes beautiful 332 00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,760 Speaker 4: in identific interaction between you and the design of the game. 333 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 4: But that's not as easily saleable. 334 00:16:52,040 --> 00:16:54,760 Speaker 1: So what he's really saying is that games are art, okay, 335 00:16:54,920 --> 00:16:58,000 Speaker 1: and not even that basic stable art that y'all like 336 00:16:58,040 --> 00:17:01,280 Speaker 1: to say you really love. Games are dynamic art that 337 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:05,880 Speaker 1: are unique inexperience for each person, designed with your agency 338 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,640 Speaker 1: in mind. This art that's created for players to move 339 00:17:08,680 --> 00:17:09,960 Speaker 1: through and have their own interaction. 340 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,880 Speaker 4: For example, tabletop role playing like Dungeons and Dragons often 341 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:17,520 Speaker 4: gets detegrated as very aesthetically low, and if you redescribe 342 00:17:17,560 --> 00:17:19,679 Speaker 4: in a certain way, here's an activity where people who 343 00:17:19,720 --> 00:17:23,000 Speaker 4: are largely passiveists who otherwise might be sitting around watching 344 00:17:23,040 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 4: the shittiest Netflix show that repeats the same stories and 345 00:17:26,119 --> 00:17:30,200 Speaker 4: not you know, digesting it, are sitting together inventing new 346 00:17:30,320 --> 00:17:33,840 Speaker 4: stories on the fly. And then somehow this becomes like 347 00:17:34,400 --> 00:17:38,119 Speaker 4: the lowest part of like it's it's just weird and 348 00:17:38,160 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 4: like now I'm just looking for an explanation for this. 349 00:17:40,280 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 4: Stuff has been like excluded from being at the core 350 00:17:43,440 --> 00:17:44,000 Speaker 4: of what we do. 351 00:17:44,359 --> 00:17:48,480 Speaker 3: This way of thinking is not something that I do often. 352 00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:52,520 Speaker 3: I just don't think like this. But now listening to 353 00:17:52,600 --> 00:17:57,240 Speaker 3: Professor Nuhen, I'm like life, life is a game. Life 354 00:17:57,280 --> 00:18:01,280 Speaker 3: is games. Every part of life you can look at 355 00:18:01,320 --> 00:18:02,439 Speaker 3: it as a game. 356 00:18:03,200 --> 00:18:05,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. It feels like the short of it 357 00:18:05,320 --> 00:18:06,840 Speaker 1: is you thought it was one way, but it's another. 358 00:18:07,240 --> 00:18:11,480 Speaker 1: Like you know, you're living around and seeing game like 359 00:18:11,520 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: activity everywhere. It does make you start to ask some questions, 360 00:18:15,359 --> 00:18:18,200 Speaker 1: like is everything a game? Was the matrix for real? 361 00:18:19,280 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 4: I don't think everything is a game. The suit in 362 00:18:22,119 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 4: definition is that games are voluntary you have to choose 363 00:18:25,520 --> 00:18:28,720 Speaker 4: to take them up, and so game like systems that 364 00:18:28,760 --> 00:18:30,840 Speaker 4: are forced on you where you have to engage in 365 00:18:30,880 --> 00:18:34,760 Speaker 4: them to survive. Systems where the points are associated with 366 00:18:35,000 --> 00:18:38,040 Speaker 4: I don't know, eating or having a good job that 367 00:18:38,119 --> 00:18:40,600 Speaker 4: doesn't have the kind of ideal structure I'm talking about 368 00:18:40,880 --> 00:18:44,439 Speaker 4: where you freely choose a goal and a game for 369 00:18:44,520 --> 00:18:47,360 Speaker 4: the joy of the struggle. It's unsurprising if you see 370 00:18:47,400 --> 00:18:49,880 Speaker 4: game like activity everywhere. I don't think that's because games 371 00:18:49,920 --> 00:18:52,880 Speaker 4: are everywhere. I think it's because games are a crystallization 372 00:18:52,960 --> 00:18:55,640 Speaker 4: of every day activity. John Jue, the great American philosopher, 373 00:18:55,720 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 4: said that every art form was the crystallization of something 374 00:18:58,600 --> 00:19:01,399 Speaker 4: we do in normal life, like the crystallization of seeing 375 00:19:01,680 --> 00:19:03,760 Speaker 4: in fiction is the crystallization of telling each other that 376 00:19:03,760 --> 00:19:06,800 Speaker 4: should happened in our day. In games of the crystallization 377 00:19:06,880 --> 00:19:09,600 Speaker 4: of doing, the crystallization of action. And a lot of 378 00:19:09,640 --> 00:19:12,960 Speaker 4: the times we play games because once in a while 379 00:19:13,000 --> 00:19:16,080 Speaker 4: than life, we get to have beautiful, interesting, rich action, 380 00:19:16,200 --> 00:19:18,159 Speaker 4: But most of the time in our life the actions 381 00:19:18,160 --> 00:19:18,919 Speaker 4: are crap. 382 00:19:18,800 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: All right. So whether you're life right now is rich 383 00:19:21,760 --> 00:19:23,520 Speaker 1: in action or feeling like it's full of crap. We're 384 00:19:23,560 --> 00:19:25,200 Speaker 1: going to take a break, and when we get back, 385 00:19:25,280 --> 00:19:28,680 Speaker 1: we'll dive into game design, the gamification of everything from 386 00:19:28,920 --> 00:19:51,000 Speaker 1: money to exercise to drinking water to flossing. We're back, 387 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,200 Speaker 1: and before we dive back into games and the literal 388 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: meaning of life, let's tee up next week's lab. It's 389 00:19:56,320 --> 00:19:59,360 Speaker 1: almost June and that means it's Pride month. Next week 390 00:19:59,400 --> 00:20:01,880 Speaker 1: we're going to be here from members of the LGBTQIA 391 00:20:02,080 --> 00:20:05,000 Speaker 1: plus in STEM community, so be sure to check that 392 00:20:05,080 --> 00:20:06,400 Speaker 1: lab out. You don't want to miss it. 393 00:20:06,560 --> 00:20:09,400 Speaker 2: Okay, back to talking about games with Professor t. Nuan. 394 00:20:09,680 --> 00:20:13,000 Speaker 3: We've been talking about what games are, why we like 395 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:16,080 Speaker 3: playing them. Now let's talk about the people who are 396 00:20:16,160 --> 00:20:18,880 Speaker 3: actually designing them. There's a lot of thought that goes 397 00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,919 Speaker 3: into creating a good game, including thinking about a player's behavior. 398 00:20:22,960 --> 00:20:25,199 Speaker 3: When you're designing a game, you have to account for 399 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 3: the freedom of the players and create space for them 400 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 3: to have agency. 401 00:20:29,480 --> 00:20:31,040 Speaker 4: The things in the world the game design is the 402 00:20:31,080 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 4: closest to is actually making governments and making cities. But 403 00:20:34,760 --> 00:20:38,280 Speaker 4: these are sets of rules or constraints that transform people's 404 00:20:38,359 --> 00:20:41,560 Speaker 4: actions inside them while still trying to leave them substantially free. 405 00:20:41,680 --> 00:20:44,800 Speaker 1: So, aside from the actual design the colors, what the 406 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:47,720 Speaker 1: interface is like, and the graphics look like, all of that, 407 00:20:48,040 --> 00:20:50,760 Speaker 1: you're also thinking about how people might or might not 408 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,480 Speaker 1: engage with the game and all of the different scenarios 409 00:20:54,560 --> 00:20:55,280 Speaker 1: that can happen. 410 00:20:55,320 --> 00:20:58,639 Speaker 2: From that, there's also figuring out the goal of the game. 411 00:20:58,920 --> 00:21:01,280 Speaker 4: So I have a figle favorite games. It's reyner Kinisia. 412 00:21:01,400 --> 00:21:04,520 Speaker 4: He's the Mozart of Germany game design. He says, Yeah, 413 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:08,760 Speaker 4: So the most important thing in my toolbox is the 414 00:21:08,760 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 4: point system because the point system tells the players what 415 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:15,840 Speaker 4: to care about during the game. It sets their desires. 416 00:21:16,119 --> 00:21:17,720 Speaker 4: You literally just open up the rule bug and it 417 00:21:17,720 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 4: tells you your desire and you. 418 00:21:19,000 --> 00:21:22,000 Speaker 1: Just do it. This makes so much sense. Yes, if 419 00:21:22,040 --> 00:21:23,640 Speaker 1: I download a game and I'm playing and I feel 420 00:21:23,680 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 1: like I can't get enough points, or I have to 421 00:21:26,359 --> 00:21:30,120 Speaker 1: watch too many ads to get points, or do I'm out. 422 00:21:30,359 --> 00:21:32,040 Speaker 3: So one of the types of games that I like 423 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:35,440 Speaker 3: to have on my phone is like restaurant games. And 424 00:21:36,000 --> 00:21:39,480 Speaker 3: I'll download a restaurant game, and if the point is 425 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,200 Speaker 3: to just make the food and that's how you get points, 426 00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:43,040 Speaker 3: that's boring to me. 427 00:21:43,280 --> 00:21:45,320 Speaker 2: I want customers to have a. 428 00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:48,359 Speaker 3: Timer over their heads, and you lose points if they've 429 00:21:48,359 --> 00:21:51,000 Speaker 3: had to wait for longer than fifteen minutes to order, 430 00:21:51,440 --> 00:21:53,800 Speaker 3: longer than twenty minutes to get their food. Like, I 431 00:21:53,880 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 3: want those types of points. So I will decide based 432 00:21:57,280 --> 00:21:59,600 Speaker 3: on how the points are given out, whether or not 433 00:21:59,600 --> 00:22:01,440 Speaker 3: I'm going to engage with a game. 434 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,440 Speaker 1: Because it's telling you what to value, right. I don't 435 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:05,760 Speaker 1: want to just value making the food. I want a 436 00:22:05,760 --> 00:22:08,080 Speaker 1: more complex world. I want to have to consider emotions. 437 00:22:08,119 --> 00:22:09,520 Speaker 1: I want to have to consider how much time is 438 00:22:09,520 --> 00:22:10,600 Speaker 1: taken for my customer? 439 00:22:10,720 --> 00:22:11,840 Speaker 2: What does that say about me? 440 00:22:13,200 --> 00:22:13,280 Speaker 1: Now? 441 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:14,960 Speaker 2: I don't want to get into all of that. Let's 442 00:22:14,960 --> 00:22:18,080 Speaker 2: skip over. That's another episode. I'll talk to about therapist 443 00:22:18,119 --> 00:22:18,680 Speaker 2: about it. 444 00:22:19,359 --> 00:22:21,919 Speaker 4: People will say things like game designers tell stories or 445 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:24,920 Speaker 4: game designers create worlds, and I think that's actually underselling 446 00:22:24,960 --> 00:22:28,320 Speaker 4: the issue. Game designers create alternate sells for you, which 447 00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 4: have alternate abilities, but specifically alternate desires, And the true 448 00:22:32,960 --> 00:22:36,800 Speaker 4: heart of gameplay is manipulating the desires and the abilities 449 00:22:37,040 --> 00:22:40,640 Speaker 4: and the obstacles in the environment so that together action 450 00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:45,120 Speaker 4: in that is likely to be awesome, beautiful, funny, thrilling, dramatic, 451 00:22:45,520 --> 00:22:48,840 Speaker 4: even though you're free in that designed space. I mean that, 452 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 4: I think is the true heart of game design. 453 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 1: So if games are the crystallization of everyday life, then 454 00:22:54,520 --> 00:22:58,480 Speaker 1: the question I'm immediately asking is do people typically gravitate 455 00:22:58,520 --> 00:23:02,040 Speaker 1: towards games with goals and desires that are secretly like 456 00:23:02,119 --> 00:23:04,240 Speaker 1: baked inside? You know, like, do you really want to 457 00:23:04,280 --> 00:23:05,760 Speaker 1: be a restaurant own? 458 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,520 Speaker 3: I don't think so. I hate cooking for myself. I'm 459 00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:12,600 Speaker 3: just going as a key South. 460 00:23:13,880 --> 00:23:17,320 Speaker 4: I think a lot of times games let you indulge 461 00:23:17,359 --> 00:23:19,560 Speaker 4: or explore desire sets that you don't have it all, 462 00:23:19,800 --> 00:23:22,439 Speaker 4: Like with literature. I think some people just like the 463 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:24,840 Speaker 4: literature where they recognize the character of themselves, But a 464 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:27,199 Speaker 4: lot of us like literature because we need to explore 465 00:23:27,280 --> 00:23:30,679 Speaker 4: completely different personas and styles. Since every game records a 466 00:23:30,680 --> 00:23:33,639 Speaker 4: different kind of agency, you can explore totally wildly different 467 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,280 Speaker 4: agencies from yours and games and you can just use 468 00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:38,880 Speaker 4: them to explore what's it like to be a total Machaveellian? 469 00:23:39,119 --> 00:23:40,840 Speaker 4: What's it like to be a perfect member of a 470 00:23:40,880 --> 00:23:41,760 Speaker 4: team that is in locks? 471 00:23:41,880 --> 00:23:41,960 Speaker 2: Like? 472 00:23:42,160 --> 00:23:47,240 Speaker 4: You can explore all these different things through games. 473 00:23:50,840 --> 00:23:53,400 Speaker 3: Now that we've talked all about games, let's get into 474 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,639 Speaker 3: the idea of the gamification of life, like what you 475 00:23:56,680 --> 00:23:59,920 Speaker 3: were talking about Zakia earlier on with your light built 476 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 3: and wanting to win in your neighborhood. But when we 477 00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 3: say gamification, okay, what do we actually need? 478 00:24:07,359 --> 00:24:11,440 Speaker 4: It's any procedure where you take techniques from game design 479 00:24:11,920 --> 00:24:14,480 Speaker 4: and you export them to ordinary life activities to make 480 00:24:14,560 --> 00:24:16,639 Speaker 4: those more like a game in some way. 481 00:24:16,920 --> 00:24:20,040 Speaker 1: And we've talked about gamification in different capacities in a 482 00:24:20,040 --> 00:24:22,480 Speaker 1: few different Lab forty nine when we talked about the 483 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:25,720 Speaker 1: habit equation and you know, just filling out habit trackers, 484 00:24:26,040 --> 00:24:28,159 Speaker 1: Lab forty Money Moves, when we talked about some of 485 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,879 Speaker 1: the latest and fintech, and then even in Lab thirty 486 00:24:30,880 --> 00:24:32,320 Speaker 1: seven in Denial. 487 00:24:32,240 --> 00:24:34,240 Speaker 4: There's also an even bigger thing that I really care 488 00:24:34,240 --> 00:24:37,200 Speaker 4: about that's kind of vaguely gamification, which is all these 489 00:24:37,240 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 4: cases in which metrified systems and clear rankings get into 490 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:44,280 Speaker 4: our life and then suddenly like they just take over, 491 00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,119 Speaker 4: and we get really excited to get points by whatever 492 00:24:47,160 --> 00:24:51,400 Speaker 4: points systems that is, which includes rate point average and 493 00:24:51,720 --> 00:24:56,400 Speaker 4: citation rates and clicks and all the other stuff by 494 00:24:56,400 --> 00:24:59,160 Speaker 4: which our achievements are measured, ranked and immediately fed back 495 00:24:59,160 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 4: to us valuations of how successful we are as human beings. 496 00:25:02,720 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: Yes, that's what your light bild is doing, even in 497 00:25:05,640 --> 00:25:08,200 Speaker 1: your car, all of these little readouts everywhere. 498 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,280 Speaker 3: Yeah, even like on your phone every new update. I 499 00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:13,959 Speaker 3: feel like it's more gamification where it's like, oh, how 500 00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 3: much screen time did you have? And just making you 501 00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,520 Speaker 3: aware of these numbers, like the awareness of the numbers. 502 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,000 Speaker 3: I feel like innately we start to evaluate ourselves and say, 503 00:25:23,119 --> 00:25:25,480 Speaker 3: maybe I should do less, and then you compare yourself, 504 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:27,480 Speaker 3: you know, week to week, or like we were talking 505 00:25:27,480 --> 00:25:32,199 Speaker 3: about earlier with the Apple Watch, where that gamifies your exercise. 506 00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 2: So on an. 507 00:25:33,119 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 3: Apple Watch, it tracks your heart rate, it lets you 508 00:25:37,119 --> 00:25:39,760 Speaker 3: check your text messages, let you check your email, but. 509 00:25:39,800 --> 00:25:41,920 Speaker 2: It also is recording your steps. 510 00:25:42,000 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 3: It'll record if you exercise, and based on your settings, 511 00:25:46,160 --> 00:25:47,959 Speaker 3: you can say, oh, I want to take you know, 512 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 3: a thousand steps in a day, and if you get 513 00:25:50,280 --> 00:25:54,360 Speaker 3: to those thousand steps, it closes that ring. And if 514 00:25:54,400 --> 00:25:56,520 Speaker 3: you say I want to do thirty minutes of exercise 515 00:25:56,680 --> 00:25:59,080 Speaker 3: every day, once you hit thirty minutes of what your 516 00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,320 Speaker 3: Apple Watch sees it exercise, it closes that ring. And 517 00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 3: so each day you can see how much of your 518 00:26:05,760 --> 00:26:07,600 Speaker 3: ring you completed and. 519 00:26:07,520 --> 00:26:09,760 Speaker 2: If you closed it or not. So it's kind of 520 00:26:09,760 --> 00:26:10,760 Speaker 2: a thing where you can. 521 00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,199 Speaker 3: Look back over the week, over the month, over the 522 00:26:13,280 --> 00:26:16,800 Speaker 3: last year and see how many times you closed your rings. 523 00:26:16,960 --> 00:26:18,600 Speaker 3: And so, you know, we talked about it in the 524 00:26:18,640 --> 00:26:21,639 Speaker 3: Habits episode where maybe that might not be such a 525 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:23,720 Speaker 3: good thing for some people because it's not a really 526 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:28,000 Speaker 3: great motivator. But for others, you know, the gamification of 527 00:26:28,480 --> 00:26:30,680 Speaker 3: their health and wellness works. 528 00:26:30,960 --> 00:26:33,640 Speaker 1: So when we say gamification, it sounds like we are 529 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:38,000 Speaker 1: pulling some elements of games. But is it technically a game? 530 00:26:38,040 --> 00:26:41,320 Speaker 1: Because I am struggling to become number one? Okay, it 531 00:26:41,359 --> 00:26:43,480 Speaker 1: is hard to keep my electric use game. 532 00:26:43,880 --> 00:26:45,119 Speaker 2: Oh my goodness. 533 00:26:45,240 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 4: There are a lot of differences, but one of the 534 00:26:47,000 --> 00:26:50,240 Speaker 4: key differences for me is that in a true game, 535 00:26:50,720 --> 00:26:52,920 Speaker 4: the points are something that you know is just there 536 00:26:52,920 --> 00:26:56,120 Speaker 4: to get you through an interesting struggle, and in gamifications, 537 00:26:56,480 --> 00:27:00,040 Speaker 4: the points are somehow this sick motivation to get you 538 00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:03,280 Speaker 4: to do something that you detest and find miserable or awful. 539 00:27:03,560 --> 00:27:06,800 Speaker 1: Another point to think about where we've talked about gamification 540 00:27:06,920 --> 00:27:10,679 Speaker 1: in the past, and it's kind of the maybe not 541 00:27:10,720 --> 00:27:14,760 Speaker 1: so positive version that Professor Newen is talking about, is 542 00:27:14,800 --> 00:27:17,960 Speaker 1: in the ad to cart episode where Christopher Mems told 543 00:27:18,040 --> 00:27:21,879 Speaker 1: us about what they call scientific management, where they were 544 00:27:22,200 --> 00:27:27,119 Speaker 1: going through and looking at productivity. Right, we're still seeing 545 00:27:27,160 --> 00:27:29,480 Speaker 1: that the gamification like keep your mouth or are you 546 00:27:29,520 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: still there? 547 00:27:30,560 --> 00:27:31,240 Speaker 2: Such a good point? 548 00:27:31,280 --> 00:27:34,600 Speaker 1: We're seeing it of work. That's something I detest, okay, 549 00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:37,200 Speaker 1: and you're trying to make me do it with stars. 550 00:27:37,920 --> 00:27:41,679 Speaker 2: This performance evaluation at the end of the year. Keep it, 551 00:27:41,920 --> 00:27:42,720 Speaker 2: you can have it. 552 00:27:44,760 --> 00:27:47,320 Speaker 1: Another big difference between games and gamification is that a 553 00:27:47,320 --> 00:27:49,480 Speaker 1: game has a pure set of goals that you're trying 554 00:27:49,520 --> 00:27:52,600 Speaker 1: to achieve within a finite amount of time, whereas this gamification, 555 00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:55,199 Speaker 1: like hey, did you go to work five days in 556 00:27:55,200 --> 00:27:57,320 Speaker 1: a row? Get two hours off in the next two 557 00:27:57,320 --> 00:27:59,359 Speaker 1: week block. It's infinite and sprawling. 558 00:27:59,840 --> 00:28:04,680 Speaker 4: I think that is the major difference between games and gamifications. 559 00:28:05,200 --> 00:28:08,600 Speaker 4: Games end and then you step back from those narrow goals. 560 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,200 Speaker 4: Gamification don't end. You're in them forever, and those goals 561 00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:17,680 Speaker 4: often aren't secluded but set over something like tweeting. 562 00:28:18,000 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean the gamification of social media. Likes, retweets, reposts, shares, 563 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:29,080 Speaker 3: all of that is gamification, and lots of people feel 564 00:28:29,400 --> 00:28:32,720 Speaker 3: bound by those shares, likes, and all those things like that. 565 00:28:32,800 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 3: And so what Professor Whet is saying makes so much 566 00:28:37,320 --> 00:28:41,080 Speaker 3: sense because social media is so much a part of 567 00:28:41,120 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 3: our day to day lives, and a lot of people 568 00:28:43,560 --> 00:28:45,240 Speaker 3: don't feel like they can take a break from that, 569 00:28:45,400 --> 00:28:49,880 Speaker 3: and so they're constantly participating in these games that aren't 570 00:28:49,920 --> 00:28:51,720 Speaker 3: games that are the good type. 571 00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:55,640 Speaker 1: Of games and that artificial value. Professor Winn has done 572 00:28:55,640 --> 00:28:59,080 Speaker 1: some extensive writing around Twitter, including a paper called How 573 00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,360 Speaker 1: Twitter Gamifies Communication, where he proposes Twitter's use of artificial 574 00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,240 Speaker 1: goals such as likes, follows, and retweets are not necessarily 575 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,800 Speaker 1: increasing our motivation to actually communicate with each other, but 576 00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,240 Speaker 1: more so just the score points right, So folks are 577 00:29:14,400 --> 00:29:17,000 Speaker 1: just more so trying to be viral than trying to 578 00:29:17,040 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: say something that actually has meaning. 579 00:29:19,200 --> 00:29:21,239 Speaker 4: Think about all the rich values that you might have 580 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:27,120 Speaker 4: in communication. Twitter doesn't measure those. Twitter measures likes, retweets, 581 00:29:27,120 --> 00:29:30,280 Speaker 4: and follows, which are basically a popularity measure. And the 582 00:29:30,280 --> 00:29:33,720 Speaker 4: reason is partially because at institutional mass scale, we don't 583 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:38,400 Speaker 4: have the technology to measure empathy understanding transformation. What we 584 00:29:38,440 --> 00:29:41,280 Speaker 4: have is the ability to measure likes. Similarly, the fitbit 585 00:29:41,320 --> 00:29:44,920 Speaker 4: can't measure whether you're at peace through the exercise or 586 00:29:44,920 --> 00:29:47,320 Speaker 4: whether it's aesthetical feel like. It measures steps. 587 00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:51,200 Speaker 3: So it really feels like gamification is everywhere. Why is 588 00:29:51,240 --> 00:29:55,000 Speaker 3: it so pervasive in modern culture? Why are we so 589 00:29:55,120 --> 00:29:56,080 Speaker 3: different from the cavemen? 590 00:29:56,360 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: M They probably were keeping scores they had to. When 591 00:29:59,200 --> 00:30:01,400 Speaker 1: did they go from a bunch of lines to four 592 00:30:01,440 --> 00:30:02,680 Speaker 1: and then a diagonal line. 593 00:30:02,720 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 4: I think a lot of the other reasons aren't overt gamifications. 594 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:08,360 Speaker 4: A lot of them have to do with the need 595 00:30:08,440 --> 00:30:12,280 Speaker 4: for processing information at large scale, and a lot of 596 00:30:12,280 --> 00:30:15,400 Speaker 4: the things that now look like metrics that gamify our 597 00:30:15,440 --> 00:30:18,960 Speaker 4: lives start their lives as attempts to keep track of 598 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:22,720 Speaker 4: and monitor complex situations, often for really good reasons. 599 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,400 Speaker 1: An example Professor Nowain gives here is diversity and inclusion initiatives, 600 00:30:26,480 --> 00:30:28,640 Speaker 1: which he's been involved in, and he says they try 601 00:30:28,640 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: to address this huge problem of a lack of diversity 602 00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:34,160 Speaker 1: by starting with simple metrics counting the number of women, 603 00:30:34,280 --> 00:30:37,160 Speaker 1: people of color, etc. And corporations, and how having a 604 00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,400 Speaker 1: simplified quota can actually hurt those efforts. 605 00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,920 Speaker 4: My intellectual obsession is why we respond so intensely to 606 00:30:44,960 --> 00:30:47,640 Speaker 4: the presence of rankings and points, and the negative side 607 00:30:47,640 --> 00:30:50,280 Speaker 4: of it is we can capture whole institutions and people 608 00:30:50,320 --> 00:30:52,040 Speaker 4: and get them to do exactly what we want by 609 00:30:52,040 --> 00:30:53,760 Speaker 4: tying it to our ranking system. And he's putting that 610 00:30:53,840 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 4: ranking system everywhere. But we love this. It's like really 611 00:30:57,520 --> 00:31:00,840 Speaker 4: really well documented the degree to win, which me as 612 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,360 Speaker 4: human beings just instantly responded orient around any available clarifying 613 00:31:05,440 --> 00:31:07,320 Speaker 4: ranking even tho when we know in our hearts that 614 00:31:07,400 --> 00:31:09,360 Speaker 4: ranking doesn't track what really matters, And so. 615 00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:11,880 Speaker 1: We really have to ask, like, is this gamification of everything? 616 00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,239 Speaker 1: Is it a good thing? You know? Like there are 617 00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:16,720 Speaker 1: some places where it feels good to have it in 618 00:31:16,800 --> 00:31:18,520 Speaker 1: your life. I think that's good for me. I see 619 00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:22,080 Speaker 1: those rings closing. Yeah, But for some people it is 620 00:31:22,320 --> 00:31:24,600 Speaker 1: daunting to be like, oh, I have to close this 621 00:31:24,800 --> 00:31:28,560 Speaker 1: entire ring today, right right? You know. And the other 622 00:31:28,640 --> 00:31:31,640 Speaker 1: part is sometimes the ring is not even the right metric. 623 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:34,120 Speaker 1: It's like, do I feel strong today? Do I feel 624 00:31:34,200 --> 00:31:35,280 Speaker 1: good today? Right? 625 00:31:35,560 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 3: You might have worked out really hard the day before, 626 00:31:38,000 --> 00:31:39,920 Speaker 3: and so today might be a rest day and your 627 00:31:39,960 --> 00:31:43,080 Speaker 3: Apple Watch telling you, hey, get up, and you're like, nah, yes, 628 00:31:43,200 --> 00:31:44,480 Speaker 3: I crushed it yesterday. 629 00:31:45,360 --> 00:31:48,120 Speaker 4: Notice that part of what makes games so sexy is 630 00:31:48,160 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 4: that they are brief moment where you know exactly what 631 00:31:50,800 --> 00:31:54,080 Speaker 4: you're doing because there's this artificially clear point system which 632 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 4: is pleasurable precisely because it's clearer than the nausea complexity 633 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:58,240 Speaker 4: of ordinary life. 634 00:31:58,320 --> 00:32:02,040 Speaker 1: A word, what are we doing here? Why is it 635 00:32:02,120 --> 00:32:06,080 Speaker 1: so complex? Why isn't it clear? And where are the rings? Yeah? 636 00:32:06,440 --> 00:32:09,640 Speaker 2: Imagine imagine if we move through life. 637 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:11,120 Speaker 1: Oh, there are some rings over there. 638 00:32:11,120 --> 00:32:14,040 Speaker 3: I'm gotta go that way, right, you know, like, just 639 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 3: tell me which way to go. 640 00:32:15,360 --> 00:32:18,320 Speaker 2: I'm sonic. I'm just out here looking for rings. 641 00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:21,200 Speaker 4: So a lot of the gamifications I think are offering 642 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:23,440 Speaker 4: you this trade where they're like, hey, you can have 643 00:32:23,480 --> 00:32:25,760 Speaker 4: the pleasure of a game in ordinary life. All you 644 00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 4: need to do is take a real world activity and 645 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:34,320 Speaker 4: orient your motivations around a simple, pre produced technological embedded 646 00:32:34,400 --> 00:32:36,320 Speaker 4: points system. Then you'll get thrills. 647 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,800 Speaker 1: Ooh, it doesn't sound so fun when he breaks it 648 00:32:38,840 --> 00:32:42,360 Speaker 1: down like that. I'm still trying to be number one, though. 649 00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:44,000 Speaker 1: Light energy use is going low. 650 00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:51,440 Speaker 2: Lou Lou. 651 00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 3: All right, it's time for one thing, and this week's 652 00:32:54,760 --> 00:32:57,000 Speaker 3: one thing is special because of this episode. 653 00:32:57,080 --> 00:33:00,000 Speaker 2: We're going to talk about our favorite game right now. 654 00:33:00,240 --> 00:33:03,240 Speaker 1: Okay, So one of them is a crossword book. That's 655 00:33:03,280 --> 00:33:07,080 Speaker 1: my analog game. My analog game is my crossword puzzle. 656 00:33:08,400 --> 00:33:11,080 Speaker 1: But I think my one game right now that I'm 657 00:33:11,120 --> 00:33:14,520 Speaker 1: really enjoying is Farming Simulator twenty nineteen. If you want 658 00:33:14,520 --> 00:33:18,640 Speaker 1: to upgrade me, I'll get you my you know, I'll 659 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:22,040 Speaker 1: give you my Xbox name. But right now, I am 660 00:33:22,160 --> 00:33:24,600 Speaker 1: really enjoying playing that game. I'm learning about a lot 661 00:33:24,600 --> 00:33:26,840 Speaker 1: of farming equipment. I have a lot of respect for 662 00:33:26,880 --> 00:33:30,560 Speaker 1: people that are driving big equipment on regular roads. I'm 663 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: crashing a lot. I'm doing contract work on other farms. 664 00:33:35,480 --> 00:33:38,120 Speaker 1: I'm spreading lime. I'm doing all kinds of stuff that 665 00:33:38,120 --> 00:33:40,240 Speaker 1: I didn't even know I needed to do to maintain 666 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,920 Speaker 1: the health of my farm. 667 00:33:42,960 --> 00:33:43,880 Speaker 2: What's your favorite crop? 668 00:33:44,120 --> 00:33:46,400 Speaker 1: Right now? Its soybeans and they were selling high. Oh 669 00:33:46,440 --> 00:33:48,680 Speaker 1: you gotta sell it to you can sell it. You 670 00:33:48,680 --> 00:33:51,920 Speaker 1: can a lot of stuff in there. You can lease equipment. 671 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:55,240 Speaker 1: I'm learning about all these different manufacturers, so much stuff. 672 00:33:55,280 --> 00:33:57,400 Speaker 1: It's really cool. What's your favorite game? 673 00:33:57,680 --> 00:33:59,880 Speaker 3: My favorite game is a game that I started playing 674 00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:01,360 Speaker 3: during the pandemic. 675 00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:02,240 Speaker 2: It's a board game. 676 00:34:02,560 --> 00:34:05,360 Speaker 3: So me and Jimmy have played this game a number 677 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,000 Speaker 3: of times. It is called Pandemic. Oh, it sounds insensitive, 678 00:34:10,000 --> 00:34:12,439 Speaker 3: but this game was created a while ago. I heard 679 00:34:12,440 --> 00:34:14,040 Speaker 3: about it from someone else and I was like, Okay, 680 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,399 Speaker 3: this might be a really interesting game to play. Give 681 00:34:16,480 --> 00:34:19,000 Speaker 3: us some perspective because this was early twenty twenty, you know, 682 00:34:19,040 --> 00:34:21,840 Speaker 3: we didn't really know much. And you see the entire 683 00:34:21,920 --> 00:34:24,920 Speaker 3: world and it has these city centers. You draw cards 684 00:34:24,920 --> 00:34:28,799 Speaker 3: to figure out what your job is, and depending on 685 00:34:28,840 --> 00:34:31,880 Speaker 3: your job, you can make specific moves. So there's a pandemic, 686 00:34:31,880 --> 00:34:35,480 Speaker 3: but you're trying to control outbreaks, okay, and so you're 687 00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,759 Speaker 3: going to different countries dropping off medicine and vaccines. 688 00:34:39,880 --> 00:34:42,719 Speaker 1: Oh so you're doing aid work. Yeah, you're doing it 689 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:43,800 Speaker 1: this game. 690 00:34:43,920 --> 00:34:46,880 Speaker 3: If you're a reporter, then you have the ability to 691 00:34:46,920 --> 00:34:48,200 Speaker 3: inform people about what's going. 692 00:34:48,480 --> 00:34:50,560 Speaker 2: It's very involved. 693 00:34:50,760 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 3: We've been planning with just two people, but you can 694 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:53,920 Speaker 3: play two to four players. 695 00:34:54,440 --> 00:34:55,640 Speaker 2: It is a lot of fun. 696 00:34:56,040 --> 00:34:59,520 Speaker 3: It takes time because you have to really strategize with 697 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:04,080 Speaker 3: your team to figure out how to stop this pandemic. 698 00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:08,560 Speaker 3: And we've lost so many times and it is always heartbreaking. 699 00:35:08,719 --> 00:35:09,960 Speaker 1: You lose as a team. 700 00:35:10,200 --> 00:35:11,400 Speaker 2: You lose as a team. 701 00:35:11,760 --> 00:35:15,080 Speaker 3: The whole thing is team based, so if one loses, 702 00:35:15,080 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 3: we all losing. And so it is drama filled lot, 703 00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:21,080 Speaker 3: very drama filled. But it's a really great game that 704 00:35:21,320 --> 00:35:22,680 Speaker 3: makes you think a lot. 705 00:35:23,719 --> 00:35:33,959 Speaker 1: It sounds like it. That's it for Lab sixty five 706 00:35:34,160 --> 00:35:36,600 Speaker 1: and we want to hear from you. Do you consider 707 00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,160 Speaker 1: yourself a gamer? If you do? What games do you play? 708 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:41,160 Speaker 1: What type of games do you play? Are you playing 709 00:35:41,200 --> 00:35:43,000 Speaker 1: games on your phone? Are you gonna delete all your 710 00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: game apps? After this? Call us at two zero two 711 00:35:46,400 --> 00:35:48,839 Speaker 1: five six seven seven zero two eight and tell us 712 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,080 Speaker 1: what you thought. Also, you can give us an idea 713 00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:53,160 Speaker 1: for a lab you think we should do this semester two. 714 00:35:53,440 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: Don't forget you could text or call us at two 715 00:35:55,640 --> 00:35:58,320 Speaker 1: zero two five six seven seven zero two. 716 00:35:58,120 --> 00:35:59,400 Speaker 2: Eight, and don't forget that. 717 00:35:59,440 --> 00:36:02,560 Speaker 3: There is so much more to dig into on our website. 718 00:36:02,680 --> 00:36:05,480 Speaker 3: There'll be a cheap cheap for today's lab, additional links 719 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:08,200 Speaker 3: and resources in the show notes. Plus you can sign 720 00:36:08,280 --> 00:36:11,040 Speaker 3: up for our newsletter. Check it out at Dope labspodcast 721 00:36:11,120 --> 00:36:15,160 Speaker 3: dot com. Special thanks today's guest expert, c t Nowan. 722 00:36:15,440 --> 00:36:17,800 Speaker 1: You can find or follow him on Twitter at add 723 00:36:18,160 --> 00:36:21,400 Speaker 1: underscore ha WK or you can read more of his 724 00:36:21,480 --> 00:36:24,680 Speaker 1: work in his book Games Agency is Art and you 725 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,680 Speaker 1: can find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Labs Podcast. 726 00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: TT's on Twitter and Instagram at dr Underscore t Sho. 727 00:36:32,040 --> 00:36:35,479 Speaker 3: And you can find Zakiya at z said So. Dope 728 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,000 Speaker 3: Labs is a Spotify original production from Mega Ownmedia Group. 729 00:36:39,120 --> 00:36:43,279 Speaker 1: Our producers are Jenny Ratlckmask and Lydia Smith of WaveRunner Studios. 730 00:36:43,480 --> 00:36:46,600 Speaker 1: Our associate producer from Mega Ohmedia is Breanna Garrett. 731 00:36:46,800 --> 00:36:50,120 Speaker 2: Editing in sound design by Rob Smerciak. 732 00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:51,320 Speaker 1: Mixing by Hannes Brown. 733 00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,480 Speaker 3: Original music composed and produced by Taka Yasuzawa and Alex 734 00:36:55,560 --> 00:37:01,360 Speaker 3: Sugier from Spotify. Executive producer Corinne Gilliard and creative producer 735 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 3: Miguel Contreras. 736 00:37:03,040 --> 00:37:08,239 Speaker 1: Special thanks to Shirley Ramos, Jess Borrison, Jasmine Afifi, Kamu Ilolia, 737 00:37:08,680 --> 00:37:12,319 Speaker 1: Till krat Key and Brian Marquis executive producers from Mega 738 00:37:12,360 --> 00:37:15,120 Speaker 1: Own Media Group, r us T T show Dia and 739 00:37:15,239 --> 00:37:26,600 Speaker 1: Zakiah Wattley. And some people are still playing games even 740 00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:30,200 Speaker 1: as adults, and they're not playing the right ones, all right, 741 00:37:30,560 --> 00:37:32,879 Speaker 1: So you know another thing