WEBVTT - Why Most People Will Lose Their Bitcoin When They Die | Zac Townsend 0:00:00.120 --> 0:00:03.480 I believe bitcoin will have more purchasing power in twenty years, 0:00:03.680 --> 0:00:04.440 as not year. 0:00:04.240 --> 0:00:06.120 To year, but certainly decade to decade. 0:00:06.400 --> 0:00:07.800 I get asked all the time, like what do I 0:00:07.800 --> 0:00:09.520 think is going to happen with the presspect and I say, 0:00:09.800 --> 0:00:10.600 I have no idea. 0:00:10.720 --> 0:00:12.600 Figuring out where it will be in ten twenty thirty 0:00:12.640 --> 0:00:14.080 years is easier than where it will be in ten 0:00:14.120 --> 0:00:18.040 twenty days. Twenty thirteen, You'll work in New Jersey and 0:00:18.079 --> 0:00:19.919 you said it was a big problem. How big of 0:00:19.920 --> 0:00:20.360 a problem? 0:00:20.400 --> 0:00:22.480 I would say, it ends up being a tech problem, 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.560 in operations problem. So I'm just like, Hey, Wells Fargo, 0:00:25.640 --> 0:00:28.000 Hey Bank of America, are like, why don't you give 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:30.600 bank accounts to people in West New York? 0:00:31.280 --> 0:00:32.279 And the answer was. 0:00:32.600 --> 0:00:35.720 Zach Townsend is the CEO and co founder of Meanwhile, 0:00:36.080 --> 0:00:39.919 the world's first bitcoin life insurance company. He was California's 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:42.800 first chief data officer and the founder of a banking 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:47.160 API startup acquired by Silicon Valley Bank. With deep expertise 0:00:47.240 --> 0:00:51.120 in finance, tech and policy, he's now reshaping how we 0:00:51.159 --> 0:00:52.639 think about financial security. 0:00:53.000 --> 0:00:56.279 Life insurance in particular can be like needlessly complicated. That 0:00:56.320 --> 0:01:02.200 complication partially exists because of the way life insurance is sold, right, 0:01:02.360 --> 0:01:05.040 I'm aligned entirely that like this is like a basic, 0:01:05.120 --> 0:01:09.360 fundamental tool. It's not just that it's boring, it's also 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:13.480 that the associations that people have with life insurance is 0:01:13.560 --> 0:01:16.319 like this thing that's being sold to you, right, not 0:01:16.440 --> 0:01:19.880 a thing that I choose to buy because it's solving 0:01:19.920 --> 0:01:22.319 this like fundamental need I have in my family. 0:01:24.640 --> 0:01:26.400 Zach, thanks for joining me today. 0:01:26.880 --> 0:01:27.600 Glad to be here. 0:01:27.760 --> 0:01:30.960 You work in the most boring industry in the world, 0:01:30.959 --> 0:01:33.400 and I'm sure whenever you mention it, people probably run 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:37.680 for the hills. But it's actually something I'm super interested in, cool, 0:01:38.319 --> 0:01:41.600 something I spend a lot of time with. But I 0:01:41.640 --> 0:01:47.200 think it's because people misunderstand the tool. Yeah, so the 0:01:47.240 --> 0:01:51.160 dirty word we're going to talk about is insurance. Maybe 0:01:51.160 --> 0:01:53.960 it's as bad of a conversation starter at a cocktail 0:01:54.000 --> 0:01:57.760 party as maybe taxes. Yeah right, But but it's a 0:01:57.840 --> 0:02:00.480 super powerful tool if you know to use it. Most 0:02:00.520 --> 0:02:03.360 people just don't, so I want to get into that. 0:02:03.440 --> 0:02:05.560 I think there's I talk about it because there's a 0:02:05.560 --> 0:02:11.400 way to build massive wealth, tax efficiency, legacy planning, and 0:02:11.560 --> 0:02:14.240 extra capital to even work with in some way if 0:02:14.240 --> 0:02:16.480 it's done right, but most people just don't understand that. 0:02:16.520 --> 0:02:19.440 So I think, oh, like insurance, like stop right, But 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:21.320 there's a lot that I want to dig into. So 0:02:21.400 --> 0:02:26.200 before we get into all that, give me your bitcoin 0:02:26.280 --> 0:02:30.800 journey and tech and bitcoin and then why the heck insurance, 0:02:30.800 --> 0:02:33.760 But let's start with like tech, your early life in tech, 0:02:33.800 --> 0:02:36.120 what you've built, and then how you got into bitcoin. 0:02:37.320 --> 0:02:41.560 Actually to start a little bit before that, I worked 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:44.040 for Corey Booker, who's now a Senator, but he was 0:02:44.080 --> 0:02:46.080 the mayor of Newark, New Jersey, and I was like 0:02:46.120 --> 0:02:48.359 the head of Innovation CTO of Newark. I had grown 0:02:48.440 --> 0:02:51.720 up in New Jersey, had like studied finance and data 0:02:51.760 --> 0:02:56.680 science stuff, and I got assigned the financial inclusion portfolio. 0:02:57.480 --> 0:03:00.160 So I was really asking this question of why do 0:03:00.280 --> 0:03:02.760 people in West Newark not have bank accounts and like 0:03:02.800 --> 0:03:05.160 why do they do check cashing? And that's sort of 0:03:05.160 --> 0:03:07.519 what launched me in this whole journey. So Corey decides 0:03:07.560 --> 0:03:10.360 to run for Senate, yeah, and I was like, I don't. 0:03:10.360 --> 0:03:12.040 Care about the Senate, Like you can't do anything in 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.760 the Senate. Yeah, I want to build stuff. 0:03:16.040 --> 0:03:18.840 And I had this background in data science and fintech 0:03:18.880 --> 0:03:21.960 and getting stuff done, like interacting with this financial inclusion 0:03:22.560 --> 0:03:25.640 and I really just went on Hacker News, which is 0:03:25.720 --> 0:03:28.799 like WHI Combinator's forum. I was like, what's the most 0:03:28.840 --> 0:03:31.440 innovative fintech company that keeps coming up? And that's how 0:03:31.480 --> 0:03:33.880 I ended up moving to San Francisco. Is I got 0:03:33.880 --> 0:03:36.560 a job at Stripe, and I didn't really know much 0:03:36.560 --> 0:03:39.760 about credit card processing or much about them. 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.480 Other than they were doing a cool thing using tech 0:03:42.600 --> 0:03:43.040 and finance. 0:03:43.120 --> 0:03:44.160 Yeah, what year was that? 0:03:44.160 --> 0:03:45.360 That's twenty thirteen. 0:03:45.560 --> 0:03:48.200 Okay, early, let's stop right there on that part of 0:03:48.240 --> 0:03:52.800 the story, the financial inclusion piece. Yeah, so if you 0:03:52.840 --> 0:03:54.480 can remember, that was a long time ago, a whole 0:03:54.480 --> 0:03:57.400 another world ago for you, Right twenty thirteen you're work 0:03:57.760 --> 0:03:59.840 in New Jersey and you said it was a big problem. 0:04:00.480 --> 0:04:02.440 How big of a problem? Do you have any remembrance 0:04:02.480 --> 0:04:05.160 of the numbers at that time? And and and why 0:04:05.440 --> 0:04:06.040 was why. 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:06.600 Is that a problem? 0:04:07.360 --> 0:04:11.880 Yeah, it's why it's a problem. Is like still somewhat 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:17.560 mys serious to me? I think that fundamentally, I would say, 0:04:17.680 --> 0:04:20.200 it ends up being a tech problem and an operations problem. 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:24.039 So you go, I actually, because Corey is Corey, I 0:04:24.080 --> 0:04:26.719 got to talk to like big banks, and I'm just like, Hey, 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.640 Wells Fargo, Hey Bank of America, Like, why don't you 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.560 have give bank accounts to people. 0:04:32.760 --> 0:04:33.560 In West Newark? 0:04:34.240 --> 0:04:38.159 And the answer was it's actually unprofitable, like the accounts 0:04:38.160 --> 0:04:43.080 are so small, and the operational costs of serving those 0:04:43.120 --> 0:04:47.760 people and servicing those accounts makes the like union economic 0:04:47.760 --> 0:04:52.440 subside down. And my immediate takeaway at the time was 0:04:52.520 --> 0:04:55.120 that doesn't make any sense, right, Like the cost of 0:04:55.160 --> 0:04:58.320 a database entry is free, Like we're all like the 0:04:58.400 --> 0:05:00.720 transactions in the bank account are not more complicated than 0:05:00.720 --> 0:05:03.680 the transactions like running through Twitter or Facebook. 0:05:03.240 --> 0:05:04.960 Like it shouldn't be that expensive. 0:05:06.040 --> 0:05:07.760 Now, I would say, I like have a lot more 0:05:07.800 --> 0:05:13.000 nuanced there, like there's fraud, there's like risks, koc. But 0:05:13.080 --> 0:05:16.960 at the time, I was just like, these are database enturies. 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.760 They should be like almost free. Thus everyone should have 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:21.279 a bank account. 0:05:21.400 --> 0:05:26.239 Yeah, and now I've like been on this whole journey, 0:05:26.440 --> 0:05:29.400 but this sort of I skipped over. But like I 0:05:29.440 --> 0:05:32.239 grew up relatively poor. 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:35.400 I mean my dad was or lower class, Like my 0:05:35.480 --> 0:05:37.880 dad was a postman, my mother was a waitress. Like 0:05:38.279 --> 0:05:42.000 we like clipped coupons. So I was like very inherently 0:05:42.080 --> 0:05:46.680 interested in this question of like money, but. 0:05:46.720 --> 0:05:48.159 Definitely spending time. 0:05:49.080 --> 0:05:52.240 I forget, but like twenty five percent of the people 0:05:52.279 --> 0:05:54.839 in New York at the time were using check cashing 0:05:55.440 --> 0:05:57.200 and didn't have a make account. So I was like, 0:05:57.240 --> 0:06:00.520 this is just like profoundly broken. 0:06:01.000 --> 0:06:03.599 Most people can't even imagine that they don't live in 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.640 that part of the world. They don't realize that about 0:06:06.680 --> 0:06:08.720 a billion, billion and a half people in the world 0:06:08.720 --> 0:06:11.120 today have no access to banking. And that's not just 0:06:11.160 --> 0:06:12.159 the world, it's the US. 0:06:12.480 --> 0:06:15.200 Yes, that's now. I mean you gotta think ten twelve. 0:06:15.200 --> 0:06:21.680 This is like before Chime, before Square Halts, before Venmo, Like, yeah, 0:06:22.120 --> 0:06:24.480 there was, Yeah, it was a even a bigger problem 0:06:24.480 --> 0:06:27.279 than but I completely I am not to come to 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:30.160 the president, but like that's partially why we my co 0:06:30.200 --> 0:06:32.000 founder and I are both profoundly interested in this. You 0:06:32.000 --> 0:06:34.000 mentioned a billion people. That's actually what we say. We 0:06:34.040 --> 0:06:37.320 want to serve a billion people, which is like ten 0:06:37.400 --> 0:06:40.719 times more than a number of people will have life insurance. Yeah, 0:06:40.920 --> 0:06:44.560 and the point is just that digital money. 0:06:44.720 --> 0:06:46.760 Well, anyway, I'm skipping way ahead and stuff. 0:06:46.520 --> 0:06:48.200 So let's go back. So then you move to San Francisco, 0:06:48.320 --> 0:06:50.800 you get a job with Stripe For those that don't know, 0:06:52.640 --> 0:06:54.640 they're one of maybe I don't know, the fastest growing, 0:06:54.680 --> 0:06:57.960 biggest online comment processes. They're certainly in the online niche 0:06:58.000 --> 0:07:00.560 for sure. Yeah. I was with them forever or they 0:07:00.560 --> 0:07:02.520 were great, and then about a year ago, for some reason, 0:07:02.520 --> 0:07:05.719 they decided to shut my account off. But I haven't 0:07:05.720 --> 0:07:07.200 been there twelve years. 0:07:09.200 --> 0:07:10.800 But I wasn't the risk. 0:07:10.640 --> 0:07:13.480 Them though, So yeah, maybe I made a mistakes all 0:07:13.480 --> 0:07:14.120 those years ago. 0:07:14.320 --> 0:07:16.360 Yeah, so so you went there? What happened? 0:07:17.200 --> 0:07:21.720 Yeah, basically I got to Stripe and it's sort of 0:07:21.760 --> 0:07:22.360 a funny story. 0:07:22.400 --> 0:07:24.920 Simultaneously to applying to Stripe, a good friend and I 0:07:24.920 --> 0:07:29.480 applied to y Combinator. Okay, so famous startup celerrator. 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:32.440 And so I started at Stripe and then y C 0:07:32.600 --> 0:07:36.600 offered us an interview, and you know, it ended up 0:07:36.600 --> 0:07:38.600 being the best life decision I ever made, Like to 0:07:38.640 --> 0:07:41.240 do y Combinator and start a company. There's obviously like 0:07:41.320 --> 0:07:43.360 one of the worst financial decisions ever made. 0:07:43.440 --> 0:07:45.160 Because even the small amount of. 0:07:45.080 --> 0:07:48.440 Sock I had will would be worth I don't even 0:07:48.640 --> 0:07:51.680 I try not to, like, like tens of millions of dollars. Yeah, 0:07:52.760 --> 0:07:55.239 but I think even in the few months I was there, 0:07:55.720 --> 0:08:00.960 you do get inculcated pretty fast into like you can 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.720 just do things and you can just build things, and 0:08:04.520 --> 0:08:09.440 like I remember lividly, almost every email in the company 0:08:09.480 --> 0:08:12.440 at the time would be BCC do an email list 0:08:12.480 --> 0:08:15.040 that you could subscribe to or you could like so 0:08:15.080 --> 0:08:17.320 you you like really see what the company was doing. 0:08:17.760 --> 0:08:20.920 I remember I woke up and I had, you know, 0:08:21.560 --> 0:08:26.040 three hundred emails and it was all Patrick, the CEO 0:08:26.120 --> 0:08:31.000 of Stripe, emailing our three hundred biggest customers, just saying like, hey, 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:32.680 how's it going, Like is there anything we can do 0:08:32.720 --> 0:08:37.160 to change? So it was a very short but fast 0:08:37.280 --> 0:08:41.000 education in I think the ways of y Combinator of 0:08:41.040 --> 0:08:47.120 startups of you know, just being an agent in the world, 0:08:47.200 --> 0:08:51.760 an entrepreneur, and then you know, interview at YC, get 0:08:51.760 --> 0:08:52.880 into YC and. 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:56.240 Start a company called Standard Treasury. Same thing. 0:08:56.400 --> 0:09:01.400 Standard Treasury built financial infrastructure. It was relatively another like 0:09:01.440 --> 0:09:07.400 boring topic. We built like API layers between banks and FinTechs. 0:09:08.280 --> 0:09:09.720 Stripe actually ended up being one. 0:09:09.600 --> 0:09:13.120 Of our biggest users with they like a company in 0:09:13.120 --> 0:09:16.199 a box product closed Stripe at lists and the. 0:09:16.200 --> 0:09:18.599 Bank you get a bank account when they open the account. 0:09:18.800 --> 0:09:21.400 But it was sort of all of this part that 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:26.320 like how do I use technology to like lower the 0:09:26.360 --> 0:09:30.000 marginal costs of these like basic building. 0:09:29.720 --> 0:09:33.960 Box and finance. And that company was a little. 0:09:35.960 --> 0:09:38.680 People won't be aware, but like there are many successor companies. 0:09:38.720 --> 0:09:40.240 Maybe people have done this afterwards. 0:09:40.559 --> 0:09:43.240 Actually two of our engineers went and founded another company 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:45.599 that did it. Another one of our engineers moved with 0:09:45.600 --> 0:09:48.959 the UK to start a bank. We were just too early, 0:09:49.240 --> 0:09:53.360 like we couldn't really get the bank partnerships working, and 0:09:54.120 --> 0:09:58.560 ultimately sold that business to Silicon Valley Bank, which was. 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.720 A going concern in twenty fifteen. And you're a respectable 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:02.600 place to tell the company. 0:10:02.800 --> 0:10:06.400 Yeah and yeah. In that journey, that's when I was 0:10:06.440 --> 0:10:10.439 first introduced to actually the very first time I ever 0:10:10.480 --> 0:10:13.280 heard about bitcoin, which I sort of regret, not like 0:10:13.440 --> 0:10:16.920 going is a bunch of the infrastructure engineers at Stripe, 0:10:17.520 --> 0:10:21.800 like we're mining bitcoin in their MIT dorm rooms. Yeah, 0:10:21.840 --> 0:10:25.240 and it was like a dinner conversation or something, but 0:10:25.360 --> 0:10:27.959 it seemed quite distant for me. And the first time 0:10:28.040 --> 0:10:31.640 I really got it. 0:10:30.320 --> 0:10:31.200 Was in twenty fifteen. 0:10:31.240 --> 0:10:36.720 I was selling Standard Treasury and Coinbase was interested in 0:10:36.720 --> 0:10:39.160 buying the company, not really because they wanted the financial 0:10:39.240 --> 0:10:42.400 like the tech we had built, but because we don't 0:10:42.400 --> 0:10:45.760 want to like payments expertise and KYC and AML expertise, 0:10:45.800 --> 0:10:47.720 and we sort of had that. We were a small team, 0:10:47.800 --> 0:10:50.640 but like we really knew that stuff well. And so 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.200 the first bitcoin ever received, I don't remember if it 0:10:53.200 --> 0:10:55.920 was Brian or Fred, but like literally they like download 0:10:55.960 --> 0:10:59.080 the coin base app and like sent me bitcoin. And 0:10:59.120 --> 0:11:02.240 I understood a media even with the little experience at 0:11:02.280 --> 0:11:04.200 it Stripe, but then the big experience as Saren Treasury, 0:11:04.400 --> 0:11:07.120 like this was something categorically different, right, Like it was so. 0:11:07.200 --> 0:11:10.840 Fast, and that's because you had been focused on lowering 0:11:10.960 --> 0:11:14.720 costs and finance specifically, and so all of a sudden 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:16.200 you saw that and it like clicked for you. 0:11:16.400 --> 0:11:20.520 Yeah yeah, yeah, but I guess didn't click enough to 0:11:20.559 --> 0:11:21.760 sell my company in Coinbase. 0:11:21.880 --> 0:11:22.840 Yeah. 0:11:24.320 --> 0:11:26.560 And then I, I mean, we can talk about the 0:11:26.559 --> 0:11:29.920 other parts of my professional life, but I've basically been 0:11:29.960 --> 0:11:35.400 like dollar costs averaging into bitcoin since then. Definitely, like 0:11:35.760 --> 0:11:40.800 sort of saw the Ico bubble of like eighteen nineteen, 0:11:40.840 --> 0:11:45.360 and so I thought that was ridiculous and really came 0:11:45.400 --> 0:11:47.560 back to it like when it was the rice right 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:49.440 like moment in my life to start a company again. 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:53.240 Yeah, Now I'm curious a couple of things. So one, 0:11:53.559 --> 0:11:56.440 it kind of shows your focus, right, lowering costs, more inclusion, 0:11:56.440 --> 0:12:00.440 things like that. But you said that, you know, going 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:04.000 to the White Combinator and the short stint at Stripe 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.160 and things like that maybe weren't the best financial decisions, 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:09.520 but what worked really well. And you said that you 0:12:09.600 --> 0:12:12.040 had a short education, but something that was really impactful. 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.360 I'm curious, you know, as you found in different companies, 0:12:14.400 --> 0:12:16.319 what are some of the key things that you've learned 0:12:16.400 --> 0:12:19.640 there that you continue to repeat in the businesses that 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:20.440 you that you run. 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.320 Now, yeah, I think I alluded to it, But I 0:12:24.360 --> 0:12:31.760 think that people often like need think they need permission 0:12:31.760 --> 0:12:35.760 from other people to do things. And I think being 0:12:35.760 --> 0:12:39.240 an entrepreneur is realizing that there's no one else to 0:12:39.240 --> 0:12:41.880 do the work and that you can just do it. 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.880 Like I look back, even over the course of this company, 0:12:46.840 --> 0:12:48.520 we've been running it for about three years. 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:52.160 I didn't know anything about life insurance when we started. 0:12:52.320 --> 0:12:53.920 I mean I knew a little bit about it. 0:12:53.920 --> 0:12:55.120 I knew enough about it to say, like, I think 0:12:55.120 --> 0:12:56.840 there should be a bitcoin life insurance company. 0:12:57.320 --> 0:13:01.040 But I just had to go and learn it, Like 0:13:01.160 --> 0:13:02.120 I had to like. 0:13:03.120 --> 0:13:06.960 Read legal documents and you know, write a business plan 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:07.880 and recruit people. 0:13:08.040 --> 0:13:11.120 And I think that you can. 0:13:11.440 --> 0:13:13.120 And I was on this train too, right, Like you 0:13:13.160 --> 0:13:16.240 go to a good high school, you like get straight a'ge, 0:13:16.400 --> 0:13:19.120 you like do well in the SAT, you like go 0:13:19.240 --> 0:13:22.680 to a college. It all seems very laid out for you. 0:13:22.840 --> 0:13:26.520 And there's just like things you can achieve. And entrepreneurship 0:13:26.559 --> 0:13:29.400 is a lot of ambiguity and you just have to 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:32.079 wake up and like decide what am I going to 0:13:32.120 --> 0:13:35.320 do today? Just like and like how do I push 0:13:35.360 --> 0:13:37.160 the company forward? And there's no one telling you that. 0:13:37.559 --> 0:13:40.920 And but you also like come to realize like you 0:13:41.000 --> 0:13:46.040 can just do things like everything it's actually this amazing 0:13:46.080 --> 0:13:50.000 like change your perspective, like everything was made by someone. 0:13:51.080 --> 0:13:54.920 How this microphone was designed, Like someone designed it right, 0:13:55.080 --> 0:13:57.320 someone on your team decided how to set this up. 0:13:57.400 --> 0:14:01.640 Like every single thing in the world is the result 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:07.760 of agency, and most people just don't act that way. 0:14:09.760 --> 0:14:14.520 Why I I. 0:14:14.480 --> 0:14:16.120 Don't have a good answer. I've sort of always been 0:14:16.120 --> 0:14:18.800 this way. Maybe it's something I think a. 0:14:18.760 --> 0:14:21.800 Lot about, Like on my team and my and my children, 0:14:21.840 --> 0:14:24.640 those are different things. Is like how do you instill 0:14:24.720 --> 0:14:29.200 a sense that like the world is a place where 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:30.040 you can be an author. 0:14:32.480 --> 0:14:35.200 Oh, it's harder, it's more uncomfortable. You fail a lot. 0:14:35.920 --> 0:14:37.800 And my first company is essentially. 0:14:38.280 --> 0:14:41.960 I mean it's looked back on, like I learned a lot, 0:14:42.640 --> 0:14:47.280 and venture capitalists and other people realize now think we 0:14:47.280 --> 0:14:47.960 were geniuses. 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:48.800 We're just too early. 0:14:49.400 --> 0:14:52.200 But at the time, like I put three years of 0:14:52.200 --> 0:14:54.320 my life into a company and we sort of like 0:14:54.960 --> 0:14:58.360 failed up into like an acquis not an acquihire, a 0:14:58.360 --> 0:15:02.640 little more an acquihier with Seve and that's like I 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:03.680 think it could be crusher. 0:15:04.040 --> 0:15:07.800 Yeah, I also think about this question a lot, so 0:15:07.920 --> 0:15:10.840 I was curious what your thoughts were on that. I 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.800 think maybe as you become a father you think about 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:14.720 it even more because I'm trying to think about my 0:15:14.880 --> 0:15:16.960 kids and like, how could I instill this in my kids? 0:15:16.960 --> 0:15:19.920 And is it nature versus nurture? Things like that, And 0:15:19.960 --> 0:15:21.840 we were just talking before we started recording. Last week, 0:15:21.840 --> 0:15:23.720 I went up to Canada. I took my youngest with me. 0:15:23.800 --> 0:15:25.840 I like to do individual trips with my kids. Took 0:15:25.880 --> 0:15:27.880 my youngest up there and we did some snowboarding and 0:15:27.920 --> 0:15:29.840 helli boarding and things like that. And I was asking 0:15:29.840 --> 0:15:34.400 her these types of questions. You know how she's fifteen, okay, 0:15:34.520 --> 0:15:39.560 and so you know, I asked her, like, well, we 0:15:39.560 --> 0:15:42.800 were talking about, like imagine like most people they get 0:15:42.840 --> 0:15:47.560 like two weeks of vocation a year. Yeah, Like we've 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:51.280 taken two weeks offication this month, just as much as January, like, 0:15:51.320 --> 0:15:53.560 but they get two weeks a year. And I want 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:55.920 my kids to think that there's this other world for them, right, 0:15:56.000 --> 0:15:58.440 And I'm like, why do you think it is that 0:15:58.480 --> 0:16:01.360 most people just want to work for forty years and 0:16:01.400 --> 0:16:04.520 get two weeks of vacation a year, like, imagine that life, right, 0:16:05.000 --> 0:16:09.520 And she's like, I don't know. I think you know 0:16:09.720 --> 0:16:13.040 because I guess going on your own is harder, right, 0:16:13.200 --> 0:16:16.160 kind of what you said, But I said harder, but 0:16:16.240 --> 0:16:20.000 they work way longer than I do. Yeah, right, so 0:16:20.080 --> 0:16:23.080 then maybe it's like the sense of risk. Maybe it's 0:16:23.080 --> 0:16:24.880 to the point that you said, where like we've been 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:26.160 told to go to school, giggod grades. 0:16:26.320 --> 0:16:29.960 It isn't It's not necessarily true that you work harder, 0:16:30.000 --> 0:16:33.120 although you probably do work a lot of like me, 0:16:33.320 --> 0:16:35.360 like a lot of odd hours, and yeah, you know 0:16:35.400 --> 0:16:38.200 you're always thinking about it. But I think it's yeah, 0:16:38.320 --> 0:16:45.560 it's not it's risk. It's emotional risk, like it's risk 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:51.360 about your self reception, it's risk among your peers, like 0:16:51.480 --> 0:16:53.240 if all of your peers are the fear. 0:16:53.640 --> 0:16:54.680 Yeah, I think it's a lot of fear. 0:16:54.800 --> 0:16:56.080 Yeah, or even like. 0:16:56.280 --> 0:17:01.920 I don't know, like arepreneurship puts stress on my relationship 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:06.320 with my life right, Like we started this, but like 0:17:06.520 --> 0:17:09.439 now it really starting to it is like working and 0:17:09.440 --> 0:17:11.439 it feels that way, but we're in year three. 0:17:12.200 --> 0:17:15.119 Like the first year we just like work to get 0:17:15.160 --> 0:17:18.240 regulatory licenses, and in the second year we just like 0:17:18.400 --> 0:17:22.040 built tech and then we launched and then like now 0:17:22.080 --> 0:17:24.800 it's a year later and we're like, oh, like it's working. 0:17:25.240 --> 0:17:30.560 But that's three years where my wife has had to 0:17:30.640 --> 0:17:38.200 be very patient and gracious and and that's hard. It's 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.880 hard to make that choice when you have kids. 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:42.239 When you have people will rely on you, and it's 0:17:42.240 --> 0:17:44.520 certainly not a smooth path. I mean, my entrepreneur journey 0:17:44.560 --> 0:17:48.239 has seen feast and famine, boom and bust, right, so 0:17:48.320 --> 0:17:53.119 then there's there's that. There's that as well. So safety 0:17:53.320 --> 0:17:57.480 or or freedom or whatever right, safe, safety or adventure, 0:17:58.080 --> 0:18:01.080 I guess choose which one so to other lessons maybe 0:18:01.119 --> 0:18:06.240 if there's any lessons on management or like how you 0:18:06.240 --> 0:18:08.520 think about scale with the business. I mean you had 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:10.640 to have learned some really good stuff both at Stripe 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:12.680 and White Combinator. I'm just curious and. 0:18:12.720 --> 0:18:20.199 Yeah, yeah, I think there's a tolerance for risk. We 0:18:20.240 --> 0:18:23.720 talked about a realization that the downside maybe isn't as 0:18:23.840 --> 0:18:26.280 bad as you can imagine it, that you can do 0:18:26.359 --> 0:18:31.800 things in the world. I think Online Combinator and Stripe 0:18:32.280 --> 0:18:35.080 are both very focused on. 0:18:36.520 --> 0:18:38.520 Having you be focused, maybe. 0:18:40.119 --> 0:18:42.080 Like being really clear on what it is, yeah, or 0:18:42.119 --> 0:18:45.320 just like what matters, Like people can really even fill your. 0:18:45.160 --> 0:18:46.439 Time with things that don't matter. 0:18:47.280 --> 0:18:51.200 It's really easy, like in entrepreneurship sometimes like to go 0:18:51.280 --> 0:18:54.480 to meetings or go to conferences or talk to people 0:18:54.640 --> 0:19:01.040 aren't So when I did y see Hall Graham, who 0:19:01.080 --> 0:19:04.320 was the founder, was running it, and I think his 0:19:04.400 --> 0:19:09.960 line was something like you should eat, sleep, exercise, talk 0:19:10.040 --> 0:19:13.760 to users, and code and it's not on that list, 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:18.880 don't do it right. And so there's a certain discipline 0:19:18.880 --> 0:19:22.040 there of waking up and saying, like what really matters, 0:19:22.119 --> 0:19:25.840 not what makes me feel good, not what's gonna maybe 0:19:25.880 --> 0:19:28.040 get me esteem or make me feel like I have 0:19:28.080 --> 0:19:33.720 his team. I find this actually a lot easier after 0:19:33.760 --> 0:19:38.560 having kids, because every hour I am working is an 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:40.160 hour I'm choosing not to be with them. 0:19:40.200 --> 0:19:40.959 Put a new priority. 0:19:41.200 --> 0:19:43.600 Yeah, so it has helped me even like focus more. 0:19:43.640 --> 0:19:47.200 But I think that maniacal focus is something I definitely 0:19:47.280 --> 0:19:52.639 learned on management. Neither of those places when I was 0:19:52.880 --> 0:19:55.040 you know, when you're in YC, you have like it's 0:19:55.080 --> 0:19:56.560 you and your co founder or you and your two 0:19:56.560 --> 0:20:00.000 compounders and stripe. I think at the time there weren't managed, 0:20:00.520 --> 0:20:06.840 so it wasn't I think in the overall journey of entrepreneurship. 0:20:08.440 --> 0:20:11.679 You know, I just had I'm I'm in the process 0:20:11.720 --> 0:20:15.440 of raising some more money for Meanwhile my company. 0:20:15.560 --> 0:20:20.080 And I had a vc UH he wanted to interview 0:20:20.119 --> 0:20:21.440 they wanted to interview a bunch of my team. 0:20:21.560 --> 0:20:23.960 So this happened just this week actually, like interviewed like 0:20:23.960 --> 0:20:24.879 four or five minute people. 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:26.480 And he was giving me a. 0:20:26.440 --> 0:20:28.600 Debrief just before I came over here, and he's like, 0:20:28.920 --> 0:20:33.400 these people like believe like this is a mission for them, 0:20:34.200 --> 0:20:38.480 And it's so corny to like say this line where 0:20:38.520 --> 0:20:41.280 you're like, you don't teach people to to build a 0:20:41.720 --> 0:20:43.320 or you don't tell people to build a boat, you 0:20:43.400 --> 0:20:45.520 like inspire them to long for the ocean, or like 0:20:45.520 --> 0:20:47.040 there are all these lines like this, but I think 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:51.560 that's true. Yeah, and there's a lot of like tactical 0:20:51.760 --> 0:20:55.399 management things about like how you give empathetic feedback. But 0:20:55.480 --> 0:20:58.560 I think the most important thing I find is I 0:20:58.640 --> 0:21:01.320 need to believe what I'm doing. And if you really 0:21:01.320 --> 0:21:03.040 believe in what you do what you're doing, you to 0:21:03.080 --> 0:21:06.600 find a way to communicate that to others so they 0:21:06.640 --> 0:21:09.360 believe and then they'll run through mountains. Like then you're 0:21:09.400 --> 0:21:12.680