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Speaker 1: I believe bitcoin will have more purchasing power in twenty years,

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Speaker 1: as not year.

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Speaker 2: To year, but certainly decade to decade.

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Speaker 1: I get asked all the time, like what do I

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Speaker 1: think is going to happen with the presspect and I say,

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Speaker 1: I have no idea.

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Speaker 3: Figuring out where it will be in ten twenty thirty

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Speaker 3: years is easier than where it will be in ten

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Speaker 3: twenty days. Twenty thirteen, You'll work in New Jersey and

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Speaker 3: you said it was a big problem. How big of

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Speaker 3: a problem?

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Speaker 1: I would say, it ends up being a tech problem,

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Speaker 1: in operations problem. So I'm just like, Hey, Wells Fargo,

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Speaker 1: Hey Bank of America, are like, why don't you give

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Speaker 1: bank accounts to people in West New York?

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Speaker 2: And the answer was.

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Speaker 4: Zach Townsend is the CEO and co founder of Meanwhile,

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Speaker 4: the world's first bitcoin life insurance company. He was California's

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Speaker 4: first chief data officer and the founder of a banking

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Speaker 4: API startup acquired by Silicon Valley Bank. With deep expertise

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Speaker 4: in finance, tech and policy, he's now reshaping how we

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Speaker 4: think about financial security.

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Speaker 1: Life insurance in particular can be like needlessly complicated. That

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Speaker 1: complication partially exists because of the way life insurance is sold, right,

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Speaker 1: I'm aligned entirely that like this is like a basic,

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Speaker 1: fundamental tool. It's not just that it's boring, it's also

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Speaker 1: that the associations that people have with life insurance is

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Speaker 1: like this thing that's being sold to you, right, not

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Speaker 1: a thing that I choose to buy because it's solving

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Speaker 1: this like fundamental need I have in my family.

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Speaker 3: Zach, thanks for joining me today.

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Speaker 2: Glad to be here.

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Speaker 3: You work in the most boring industry in the world,

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Speaker 3: and I'm sure whenever you mention it, people probably run

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Speaker 3: for the hills. But it's actually something I'm super interested in, cool,

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Speaker 3: something I spend a lot of time with. But I

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Speaker 3: think it's because people misunderstand the tool. Yeah, so the

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Speaker 3: dirty word we're going to talk about is insurance. Maybe

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Speaker 3: it's as bad of a conversation starter at a cocktail

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Speaker 3: party as maybe taxes. Yeah right, But but it's a

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Speaker 3: super powerful tool if you know to use it. Most

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Speaker 3: people just don't, so I want to get into that.

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Speaker 3: I think there's I talk about it because there's a

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Speaker 3: way to build massive wealth, tax efficiency, legacy planning, and

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Speaker 3: extra capital to even work with in some way if

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Speaker 3: it's done right, but most people just don't understand that.

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Speaker 3: So I think, oh, like insurance, like stop right, But

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Speaker 3: there's a lot that I want to dig into. So

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Speaker 3: before we get into all that, give me your bitcoin

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Speaker 3: journey and tech and bitcoin and then why the heck insurance,

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Speaker 3: But let's start with like tech, your early life in tech,

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Speaker 3: what you've built, and then how you got into bitcoin.

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Speaker 1: Actually to start a little bit before that, I worked

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Speaker 1: for Corey Booker, who's now a Senator, but he was

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Speaker 1: the mayor of Newark, New Jersey, and I was like

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Speaker 1: the head of Innovation CTO of Newark. I had grown

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Speaker 1: up in New Jersey, had like studied finance and data

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Speaker 1: science stuff, and I got assigned the financial inclusion portfolio.

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Speaker 1: So I was really asking this question of why do

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Speaker 1: people in West Newark not have bank accounts and like

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Speaker 1: why do they do check cashing? And that's sort of

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Speaker 1: what launched me in this whole journey. So Corey decides

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Speaker 1: to run for Senate, yeah, and I was like, I don't.

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Speaker 2: Care about the Senate, Like you can't do anything in

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Speaker 2: the Senate. Yeah, I want to build stuff.

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Speaker 1: And I had this background in data science and fintech

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Speaker 1: and getting stuff done, like interacting with this financial inclusion

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Speaker 1: and I really just went on Hacker News, which is

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Speaker 1: like WHI Combinator's forum. I was like, what's the most

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Speaker 1: innovative fintech company that keeps coming up? And that's how

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Speaker 1: I ended up moving to San Francisco. Is I got

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Speaker 1: a job at Stripe, and I didn't really know much

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Speaker 1: about credit card processing or much about them.

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Speaker 2: Other than they were doing a cool thing using tech

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Speaker 2: and finance.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, what year was that?

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Speaker 2: That's twenty thirteen.

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Speaker 3: Okay, early, let's stop right there on that part of

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Speaker 3: the story, the financial inclusion piece. Yeah, so if you

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Speaker 3: can remember, that was a long time ago, a whole

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Speaker 3: another world ago for you, Right twenty thirteen you're work

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Speaker 3: in New Jersey and you said it was a big problem.

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Speaker 3: How big of a problem? Do you have any remembrance

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Speaker 3: of the numbers at that time? And and and why

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Speaker 3: was why.

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Speaker 2: Is that a problem?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, it's why it's a problem. Is like still somewhat

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Speaker 1: mys serious to me? I think that fundamentally, I would say,

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Speaker 1: it ends up being a tech problem and an operations problem.

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Speaker 1: So you go, I actually, because Corey is Corey, I

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Speaker 1: got to talk to like big banks, and I'm just like, Hey,

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Speaker 1: Wells Fargo, Hey Bank of America, Like, why don't you

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Speaker 1: have give bank accounts to people.

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Speaker 2: In West Newark?

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Speaker 1: And the answer was it's actually unprofitable, like the accounts

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Speaker 1: are so small, and the operational costs of serving those

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Speaker 1: people and servicing those accounts makes the like union economic

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Speaker 1: subside down. And my immediate takeaway at the time was

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Speaker 1: that doesn't make any sense, right, Like the cost of

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Speaker 1: a database entry is free, Like we're all like the

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Speaker 1: transactions in the bank account are not more complicated than

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Speaker 1: the transactions like running through Twitter or Facebook.

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Speaker 2: Like it shouldn't be that expensive.

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Speaker 1: Now, I would say, I like have a lot more

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Speaker 1: nuanced there, like there's fraud, there's like risks, koc. But

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Speaker 1: at the time, I was just like, these are database enturies.

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Speaker 1: They should be like almost free. Thus everyone should have

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Speaker 1: a bank account.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and now I've like been on this whole journey,

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Speaker 2: but this sort of I skipped over. But like I

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Speaker 2: grew up relatively poor.

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Speaker 1: I mean my dad was or lower class, Like my

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Speaker 1: dad was a postman, my mother was a waitress. Like

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Speaker 1: we like clipped coupons. So I was like very inherently

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Speaker 1: interested in this question of like money, but.

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Speaker 2: Definitely spending time.

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Speaker 1: I forget, but like twenty five percent of the people

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Speaker 1: in New York at the time were using check cashing

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Speaker 1: and didn't have a make account. So I was like,

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Speaker 1: this is just like profoundly broken.

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Speaker 3: Most people can't even imagine that they don't live in

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Speaker 3: that part of the world. They don't realize that about

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Speaker 3: a billion, billion and a half people in the world

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Speaker 3: today have no access to banking. And that's not just

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Speaker 3: the world, it's the US.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's now. I mean you gotta think ten twelve.

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Speaker 1: This is like before Chime, before Square Halts, before Venmo, Like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: there was, Yeah, it was a even a bigger problem

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Speaker 1: than but I completely I am not to come to

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Speaker 1: the president, but like that's partially why we my co

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Speaker 1: founder and I are both profoundly interested in this. You

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Speaker 1: mentioned a billion people. That's actually what we say. We

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Speaker 1: want to serve a billion people, which is like ten

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Speaker 1: times more than a number of people will have life insurance. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and the point is just that digital money.

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Speaker 2: Well, anyway, I'm skipping way ahead and stuff.

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Speaker 3: So let's go back. So then you move to San Francisco,

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Speaker 3: you get a job with Stripe For those that don't know,

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Speaker 3: they're one of maybe I don't know, the fastest growing,

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Speaker 3: biggest online comment processes. They're certainly in the online niche

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Speaker 3: for sure. Yeah. I was with them forever or they

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Speaker 3: were great, and then about a year ago, for some reason,

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Speaker 3: they decided to shut my account off. But I haven't

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Speaker 3: been there twelve years.

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Speaker 2: But I wasn't the risk.

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Speaker 1: Them though, So yeah, maybe I made a mistakes all

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Speaker 1: those years ago.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, so so you went there? What happened?

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Speaker 1: Yeah, basically I got to Stripe and it's sort of

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Speaker 1: a funny story.

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Speaker 2: Simultaneously to applying to Stripe, a good friend and I

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Speaker 2: applied to y Combinator. Okay, so famous startup celerrator.

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Speaker 1: And so I started at Stripe and then y C

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Speaker 1: offered us an interview, and you know, it ended up

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Speaker 1: being the best life decision I ever made, Like to

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Speaker 1: do y Combinator and start a company. There's obviously like

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Speaker 1: one of the worst financial decisions ever made.

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Speaker 2: Because even the small amount of.

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Speaker 1: Sock I had will would be worth I don't even

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Speaker 1: I try not to, like, like tens of millions of dollars. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but I think even in the few months I was there,

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Speaker 1: you do get inculcated pretty fast into like you can

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Speaker 1: just do things and you can just build things, and

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Speaker 1: like I remember lividly, almost every email in the company

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Speaker 1: at the time would be BCC do an email list

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Speaker 1: that you could subscribe to or you could like so

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Speaker 1: you you like really see what the company was doing.

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Speaker 1: I remember I woke up and I had, you know,

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Speaker 1: three hundred emails and it was all Patrick, the CEO

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Speaker 1: of Stripe, emailing our three hundred biggest customers, just saying like, hey,

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Speaker 1: how's it going, Like is there anything we can do

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Speaker 1: to change? So it was a very short but fast

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Speaker 1: education in I think the ways of y Combinator of

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Speaker 1: startups of you know, just being an agent in the world,

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Speaker 1: an entrepreneur, and then you know, interview at YC, get

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Speaker 1: into YC and.

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Speaker 2: Start a company called Standard Treasury. Same thing.

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Speaker 1: Standard Treasury built financial infrastructure. It was relatively another like

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Speaker 1: boring topic. We built like API layers between banks and FinTechs.

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Speaker 2: Stripe actually ended up being one.

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Speaker 1: Of our biggest users with they like a company in

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Speaker 1: a box product closed Stripe at lists and the.

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Speaker 2: Bank you get a bank account when they open the account.

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Speaker 1: But it was sort of all of this part that

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Speaker 1: like how do I use technology to like lower the

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Speaker 1: marginal costs of these like basic building.

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Speaker 2: Box and finance. And that company was a little.

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Speaker 1: People won't be aware, but like there are many successor companies.

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Speaker 2: Maybe people have done this afterwards.

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Speaker 1: Actually two of our engineers went and founded another company

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Speaker 1: that did it. Another one of our engineers moved with

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Speaker 1: the UK to start a bank. We were just too early,

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Speaker 1: like we couldn't really get the bank partnerships working, and

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Speaker 1: ultimately sold that business to Silicon Valley Bank, which was.

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Speaker 2: A going concern in twenty fifteen. And you're a respectable

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Speaker 2: place to tell the company.

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Speaker 1: Yeah and yeah. In that journey, that's when I was

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Speaker 1: first introduced to actually the very first time I ever

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Speaker 1: heard about bitcoin, which I sort of regret, not like

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Speaker 1: going is a bunch of the infrastructure engineers at Stripe,

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Speaker 1: like we're mining bitcoin in their MIT dorm rooms. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and it was like a dinner conversation or something, but

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Speaker 1: it seemed quite distant for me. And the first time

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Speaker 1: I really got it.

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Speaker 2: Was in twenty fifteen.

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Speaker 1: I was selling Standard Treasury and Coinbase was interested in

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Speaker 1: buying the company, not really because they wanted the financial

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Speaker 1: like the tech we had built, but because we don't

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Speaker 1: want to like payments expertise and KYC and AML expertise,

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Speaker 1: and we sort of had that. We were a small team,

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Speaker 1: but like we really knew that stuff well. And so

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Speaker 1: the first bitcoin ever received, I don't remember if it

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Speaker 1: was Brian or Fred, but like literally they like download

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Speaker 1: the coin base app and like sent me bitcoin. And

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Speaker 1: I understood a media even with the little experience at

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Speaker 1: it Stripe, but then the big experience as Saren Treasury,

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Speaker 1: like this was something categorically different, right, Like it was so.

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Speaker 3: Fast, and that's because you had been focused on lowering

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Speaker 3: costs and finance specifically, and so all of a sudden

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Speaker 3: you saw that and it like clicked for you.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, but I guess didn't click enough to

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Speaker 1: sell my company in Coinbase.

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Speaker 3: Yeah.

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Speaker 1: And then I, I mean, we can talk about the

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Speaker 1: other parts of my professional life, but I've basically been

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Speaker 1: like dollar costs averaging into bitcoin since then. Definitely, like

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Speaker 1: sort of saw the Ico bubble of like eighteen nineteen,

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Speaker 1: and so I thought that was ridiculous and really came

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Speaker 1: back to it like when it was the rice right

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Speaker 1: like moment in my life to start a company again.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Now I'm curious a couple of things. So one,

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Speaker 3: it kind of shows your focus, right, lowering costs, more inclusion,

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Speaker 3: things like that. But you said that, you know, going

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Speaker 3: to the White Combinator and the short stint at Stripe

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Speaker 3: and things like that maybe weren't the best financial decisions,

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Speaker 3: but what worked really well. And you said that you

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Speaker 3: had a short education, but something that was really impactful.

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Speaker 3: I'm curious, you know, as you found in different companies,

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Speaker 3: what are some of the key things that you've learned

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Speaker 3: there that you continue to repeat in the businesses that

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Speaker 3: you that you run.

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Speaker 1: Now, yeah, I think I alluded to it, But I

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Speaker 1: think that people often like need think they need permission

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Speaker 1: from other people to do things. And I think being

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Speaker 1: an entrepreneur is realizing that there's no one else to

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Speaker 1: do the work and that you can just do it.

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Speaker 1: Like I look back, even over the course of this company,

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Speaker 1: we've been running it for about three years.

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Speaker 2: I didn't know anything about life insurance when we started.

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Speaker 2: I mean I knew a little bit about it.

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Speaker 1: I knew enough about it to say, like, I think

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Speaker 1: there should be a bitcoin life insurance company.

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Speaker 2: But I just had to go and learn it, Like

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Speaker 2: I had to like.

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Speaker 1: Read legal documents and you know, write a business plan

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Speaker 1: and recruit people.

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Speaker 2: And I think that you can.

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Speaker 1: And I was on this train too, right, Like you

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Speaker 1: go to a good high school, you like get straight a'ge,

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Speaker 1: you like do well in the SAT, you like go

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Speaker 1: to a college. It all seems very laid out for you.

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Speaker 1: And there's just like things you can achieve. And entrepreneurship

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Speaker 1: is a lot of ambiguity and you just have to

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Speaker 1: wake up and like decide what am I going to

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Speaker 1: do today? Just like and like how do I push

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Speaker 1: the company forward? And there's no one telling you that.

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Speaker 1: And but you also like come to realize like you

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Speaker 1: can just do things like everything it's actually this amazing

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Speaker 1: like change your perspective, like everything was made by someone.

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Speaker 1: How this microphone was designed, Like someone designed it right,

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Speaker 1: someone on your team decided how to set this up.

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Speaker 1: Like every single thing in the world is the result

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Speaker 1: of agency, and most people just don't act that way.

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Speaker 3: Why I I.

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Speaker 2: Don't have a good answer. I've sort of always been

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Speaker 2: this way. Maybe it's something I think a.

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Speaker 1: Lot about, Like on my team and my and my children,

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Speaker 1: those are different things. Is like how do you instill

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Speaker 1: a sense that like the world is a place where

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Speaker 1: you can be an author.

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Speaker 2: Oh, it's harder, it's more uncomfortable. You fail a lot.

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Speaker 2: And my first company is essentially.

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Speaker 1: I mean it's looked back on, like I learned a lot,

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Speaker 1: and venture capitalists and other people realize now think we

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Speaker 1: were geniuses.

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Speaker 2: We're just too early.

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Speaker 1: But at the time, like I put three years of

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Speaker 1: my life into a company and we sort of like

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Speaker 1: failed up into like an acquis not an acquihire, a

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Speaker 1: little more an acquihier with Seve and that's like I

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Speaker 1: think it could be crusher.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, I also think about this question a lot, so

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Speaker 3: I was curious what your thoughts were on that. I

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Speaker 3: think maybe as you become a father you think about

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Speaker 3: it even more because I'm trying to think about my

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Speaker 3: kids and like, how could I instill this in my kids?

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Speaker 3: And is it nature versus nurture? Things like that, And

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Speaker 3: we were just talking before we started recording. Last week,

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Speaker 3: I went up to Canada. I took my youngest with me.

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Speaker 3: I like to do individual trips with my kids. Took

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Speaker 3: my youngest up there and we did some snowboarding and

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Speaker 3: helli boarding and things like that. And I was asking

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Speaker 3: her these types of questions. You know how she's fifteen, okay,

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Speaker 3: and so you know, I asked her, like, well, we

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Speaker 3: were talking about, like imagine like most people they get

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Speaker 3: like two weeks of vocation a year. Yeah, Like we've

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Speaker 3: taken two weeks offication this month, just as much as January, like,

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Speaker 3: but they get two weeks a year. And I want

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Speaker 3: my kids to think that there's this other world for them, right,

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Speaker 3: And I'm like, why do you think it is that

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Speaker 3: most people just want to work for forty years and

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Speaker 3: get two weeks of vacation a year, like, imagine that life, right,

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Speaker 3: And she's like, I don't know. I think you know

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Speaker 3: because I guess going on your own is harder, right,

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Speaker 3: kind of what you said, But I said harder, but

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Speaker 3: they work way longer than I do. Yeah, right, so

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Speaker 3: then maybe it's like the sense of risk. Maybe it's

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Speaker 3: to the point that you said, where like we've been

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Speaker 3: told to go to school, giggod grades.

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Speaker 1: It isn't It's not necessarily true that you work harder,

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Speaker 1: although you probably do work a lot of like me,

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Speaker 1: like a lot of odd hours, and yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: you're always thinking about it. But I think it's yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's not it's risk. It's emotional risk, like it's risk

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Speaker 1: about your self reception, it's risk among your peers, like

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Speaker 1: if all of your peers are the fear.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's a lot of fear.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, or even like.

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Speaker 5: I don't know, like arepreneurship puts stress on my relationship

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Speaker 5: with my life right, Like we started this, but like

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Speaker 5: now it really starting to it is like working and

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Speaker 5: it feels that way, but we're in year three.

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Speaker 1: Like the first year we just like work to get

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Speaker 1: regulatory licenses, and in the second year we just like

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Speaker 1: built tech and then we launched and then like now

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Speaker 1: it's a year later and we're like, oh, like it's working.

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Speaker 1: But that's three years where my wife has had to

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Speaker 1: be very patient and gracious and and that's hard. It's

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Speaker 1: hard to make that choice when you have kids.

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Speaker 3: When you have people will rely on you, and it's

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Speaker 3: certainly not a smooth path. I mean, my entrepreneur journey

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Speaker 3: has seen feast and famine, boom and bust, right, so

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Speaker 3: then there's there's that. There's that as well. So safety

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Speaker 3: or or freedom or whatever right, safe, safety or adventure,

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Speaker 3: I guess choose which one so to other lessons maybe

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Speaker 3: if there's any lessons on management or like how you

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Speaker 3: think about scale with the business. I mean you had

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Speaker 3: to have learned some really good stuff both at Stripe

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Speaker 3: and White Combinator. I'm just curious and.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, I think there's a tolerance for risk. We

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Speaker 1: talked about a realization that the downside maybe isn't as

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Speaker 1: bad as you can imagine it, that you can do

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Speaker 1: things in the world. I think Online Combinator and Stripe

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Speaker 1: are both very focused on.

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Speaker 2: Having you be focused, maybe.

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Speaker 1: Like being really clear on what it is, yeah, or

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Speaker 1: just like what matters, Like people can really even fill your.

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Speaker 2: Time with things that don't matter.

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Speaker 1: It's really easy, like in entrepreneurship sometimes like to go

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Speaker 1: to meetings or go to conferences or talk to people

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Speaker 1: aren't So when I did y see Hall Graham, who

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Speaker 1: was the founder, was running it, and I think his

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Speaker 1: line was something like you should eat, sleep, exercise, talk

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Speaker 1: to users, and code and it's not on that list,

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Speaker 1: don't do it right. And so there's a certain discipline

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Speaker 1: there of waking up and saying, like what really matters,

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Speaker 1: not what makes me feel good, not what's gonna maybe

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Speaker 1: get me esteem or make me feel like I have

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Speaker 1: his team. I find this actually a lot easier after

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Speaker 1: having kids, because every hour I am working is an

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Speaker 1: hour I'm choosing not to be with them.

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Speaker 3: Put a new priority.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, so it has helped me even like focus more.

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Speaker 1: But I think that maniacal focus is something I definitely

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Speaker 1: learned on management. Neither of those places when I was

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Speaker 1: you know, when you're in YC, you have like it's

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Speaker 1: you and your co founder or you and your two

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Speaker 1: compounders and stripe. I think at the time there weren't managed,

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Speaker 1: so it wasn't I think in the overall journey of entrepreneurship.

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Speaker 1: You know, I just had I'm I'm in the process

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Speaker 1: of raising some more money for Meanwhile my company.

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Speaker 2: And I had a vc UH he wanted to interview

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Speaker 2: they wanted to interview a bunch of my team.

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Speaker 1: So this happened just this week actually, like interviewed like

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Speaker 1: four or five minute people.

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Speaker 2: And he was giving me a.

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Speaker 1: Debrief just before I came over here, and he's like,

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Speaker 1: these people like believe like this is a mission for them,

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Speaker 1: And it's so corny to like say this line where

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Speaker 1: you're like, you don't teach people to to build a

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Speaker 1: or you don't tell people to build a boat, you

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Speaker 1: like inspire them to long for the ocean, or like

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Speaker 1: there are all these lines like this, but I think

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Speaker 1: that's true. Yeah, and there's a lot of like tactical

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Speaker 1: management things about like how you give empathetic feedback. But

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Speaker 1: I think the most important thing I find is I

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Speaker 1: need to believe what I'm doing. And if you really

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Speaker 1: believe in what you do what you're doing, you to

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Speaker 1: find a way to communicate that to others so they

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Speaker 1: believe and then they'll run through mountains. Like then you're

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Speaker 1: not asking telling people to work sixty hour weeks or

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Speaker 1: eighty hour weeks or whatever. They're working those weeks like

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Speaker 1: they you know, you might have to tell them they

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Speaker 1: need to do this better or that better. But that's

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Speaker 1: to me, like the core of management is to like

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Speaker 1: think of it less about managing people and more about

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Speaker 1: leading people.

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Speaker 3: Yeah. I loved the I mean, both of those tips

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Speaker 3: are amazing, But the first one, which was like the

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Speaker 3: maniacal focus something. For the last like six seven months,

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Speaker 3: I've been just really honed in on. I had a

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Speaker 3: conversation about that earlier today, and I think about the

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Speaker 3: difference of Elon Musk. Maybe the greatest tech on direpreneur

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Speaker 3: that we have at least today, right and a homeless

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Speaker 3: guy is how.

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Speaker 2: They spend their twenty four hours.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, that's right, or difference of me or you. It's

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Speaker 3: like what am I choosing to read or eat or whatever?

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Speaker 3: And it's like and then and then when you start

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Speaker 3: thinking about that, then it's like what I what I

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Speaker 3: say is like really being ruthless with how I spend

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Speaker 3: every hour. And I love the point that you said

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Speaker 3: about taking away from your kids. So I love that

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Speaker 3: something Like I said, I think it's so I'm super

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Speaker 3: passionate about right now and just like maniacal focus on

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Speaker 3: that as well. Okay, So what I find interesting is

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Speaker 3: you said that you know, working for Booker, you realize

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Speaker 3: there was a problem with banking and people being unbanked

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Speaker 3: and inefficiencies there, and then like going to Stripe as

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Speaker 3: a company that sort of makes that easier. You set

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Speaker 3: up another company that also helped with that as well,

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Speaker 3: and like I think as a founder, like we're trying

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Speaker 3: to create solutions to problems. Yep. Right, So now you

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Speaker 3: have a company that's in the life insurance space, so

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Speaker 3: you it seemingly would be that you saw a problem

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Speaker 3: that needed to be fixed and you wanted to solve that,

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Speaker 3: but you said that you don't know it or didn't

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Speaker 3: know anything about insurance.

439
00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 2: Well, I didn't know a lot about insurance.

440
00:22:57,520 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 1: I guess I should say, right, like, now I have

441
00:22:59,359 --> 00:23:05,400
Speaker 1: to know like actuarial math and like tax rules. And

442
00:23:05,920 --> 00:23:07,959
Speaker 1: I won't even bore you with the acronymics. I mean, like,

443
00:23:08,160 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: there's so much about running a life insurance company, right, But.

444
00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,880
Speaker 2: I think that you're right that it's interesting. Actually, in Bermuda,

445
00:23:16,920 --> 00:23:17,280
Speaker 2: which is.

446
00:23:17,200 --> 00:23:20,000
Speaker 1: Where our insurance company is based, they don't call it

447
00:23:20,040 --> 00:23:20,800
Speaker 1: life insurance.

448
00:23:21,040 --> 00:23:22,720
Speaker 2: They call it long term insurance.

449
00:23:23,600 --> 00:23:26,200
Speaker 1: And that is what really attracted us to it, Like

450
00:23:27,200 --> 00:23:33,520
Speaker 1: it's it's really about everything long term. It's retirement, it's

451
00:23:33,560 --> 00:23:36,520
Speaker 1: what happens after you die. It's what happens if you

452
00:23:36,680 --> 00:23:38,760
Speaker 1: live longer than you're supposed to and you didn't plan

453
00:23:38,840 --> 00:23:44,880
Speaker 1: for that. It's it's this class of like savings. And

454
00:23:44,920 --> 00:23:47,840
Speaker 1: that's really what animated us from the very beginning, is

455
00:23:47,880 --> 00:23:52,320
Speaker 1: we said, Okay, there's this new economics system being built

456
00:23:52,880 --> 00:23:56,000
Speaker 1: in front of our eyes, and it's an economy. It's

457
00:23:56,040 --> 00:23:59,960
Speaker 1: not you know, it's not just trading numbers on the screen,

458
00:24:00,160 --> 00:24:04,119
Speaker 1: like there's a new economy coming into the world and

459
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,280
Speaker 1: it's unique and that it's global and it's decentralized and

460
00:24:07,840 --> 00:24:12,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't have a government as far as bitcoin. Bitcoin, yeah,

461
00:24:12,200 --> 00:24:19,359
Speaker 1: right and that. But that economy, more and more people

462
00:24:19,359 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: are going to come on to it, more and more

463
00:24:20,920 --> 00:24:21,400
Speaker 1: people are.

464
00:24:21,320 --> 00:24:22,760
Speaker 2: Going to use it. It's going to grow.

465
00:24:23,160 --> 00:24:27,960
Speaker 1: That economy is going to have like basic fundamental financial

466
00:24:28,000 --> 00:24:33,040
Speaker 1: institutions that are solving like core financial needs. And we

467
00:24:33,119 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: came to life insurance like through that angle. We were like, Okay, yeah,

468
00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:41,920
Speaker 1: there are payments companies, and there are banks, and there

469
00:24:41,960 --> 00:24:44,240
Speaker 1: are exchange or things that like a look like banks

470
00:24:44,240 --> 00:24:49,320
Speaker 1: and bitcoin and exchanges. We're really comfortable with a lot

471
00:24:49,359 --> 00:24:52,080
Speaker 1: of regulatory pain. That was something like we realized about

472
00:24:52,080 --> 00:24:58,399
Speaker 1: ourselves and we sort of naturally iterated to this is

473
00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: like a core fundamental financial like in the end of

474
00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,919
Speaker 1: the day savings and it really fits into hoddling like

475
00:25:06,960 --> 00:25:10,040
Speaker 1: this this just like cultural idea and bitcoin that you're

476
00:25:10,080 --> 00:25:14,320
Speaker 1: saving for your kids, that you're passing on your generational wealth,

477
00:25:14,920 --> 00:25:21,560
Speaker 1: that you're like hedging against inflation and currency debasement, and

478
00:25:22,240 --> 00:25:25,359
Speaker 1: that like all fit together in our minds, like at

479
00:25:25,480 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: very beginning, like we like we're like, oh, this is

480
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:30,879
Speaker 1: like what life insurance is about.

481
00:25:32,760 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 3: I love I love how you said that it's they

482
00:25:34,760 --> 00:25:37,320
Speaker 3: don't call it life insurance, they call it long term. Yeah,

483
00:25:37,400 --> 00:25:39,440
Speaker 3: And I think back to kind of the intro where

484
00:25:39,480 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 3: I said, like, insurance is the most boring subject in

485
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:43,800
Speaker 3: the world, and most people don't want to put away

486
00:25:43,800 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 3: for a rainy day of something that maybe never comes

487
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,919
Speaker 3: sort of thing. But but I said that it's a tool, though,

488
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,960
Speaker 3: and if you use the tool properly, you can build

489
00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,440
Speaker 3: massive wealth with it. That's how I'm I'm using it.

490
00:25:54,720 --> 00:25:56,960
Speaker 3: Most just don't understand that, so they're not interested in it.

491
00:25:57,000 --> 00:25:58,200
Speaker 3: But sort of what you.

492
00:25:58,200 --> 00:26:00,640
Speaker 1: Said where it kind of just one thing I'm sorry

493
00:26:00,680 --> 00:26:07,920
Speaker 1: to interrupt, is that there's also this undercurrent that insurance

494
00:26:09,400 --> 00:26:12,080
Speaker 1: it can be like life insurance in particular, can be

495
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:20,119
Speaker 1: like needlessly complicated, and that complication partially exists because of

496
00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,840
Speaker 1: the way life insurance is sold.

497
00:26:21,920 --> 00:26:23,200
Speaker 2: Right, So there are.

498
00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:28,239
Speaker 1: Agents who sell life insurance. Agents want big commissions, so

499
00:26:28,280 --> 00:26:32,280
Speaker 1: they're incentivized to sell you products that have high margins.

500
00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:35,919
Speaker 1: High margin products tend to be like complicated products. So

501
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:39,440
Speaker 1: there's like all these terms and indussies and optional options

502
00:26:39,440 --> 00:26:42,840
Speaker 1: and riders and all this stuff, and it's I think

503
00:26:42,880 --> 00:26:46,840
Speaker 1: it's it. I'm aligned entirely that like this is like

504
00:26:46,880 --> 00:26:51,199
Speaker 1: a basic fundamental tool, Like I assume we'll get to

505
00:26:51,359 --> 00:26:53,600
Speaker 1: me describing the actual product we have, but it is

506
00:26:53,600 --> 00:26:55,120
Speaker 1: like a product from the eighteen thirties.

507
00:26:55,680 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 2: It is like very simple, it's very straightforward. It's like fundamental.

508
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:05,200
Speaker 1: And I think it's not just that it's boring. It's

509
00:27:05,280 --> 00:27:09,400
Speaker 1: also that the associations that people have with life insurance

510
00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 1: is like this thing that's being sold to you, right,

511
00:27:12,800 --> 00:27:15,920
Speaker 1: not a thing that I choose to buy, because it's

512
00:27:15,960 --> 00:27:18,879
Speaker 1: solving this like fundamental need I have in my family.

513
00:27:19,080 --> 00:27:21,439
Speaker 3: Well, and I think it's like, okay, great, so I

514
00:27:21,440 --> 00:27:23,320
Speaker 3: pay every month and then when I die, I get money.

515
00:27:23,480 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, but it's so.

516
00:27:24,400 --> 00:27:26,199
Speaker 3: Much more than that if you use it properly. And

517
00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:28,000
Speaker 3: I think that's what I'm alluding to, or it's not

518
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:30,000
Speaker 3: like just some boring thing where I just like pay

519
00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:32,560
Speaker 3: every month and maybe if I die within this timeframe,

520
00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:34,679
Speaker 3: I get some money, as opposed to like, oh no,

521
00:27:34,680 --> 00:27:36,440
Speaker 3: there's a way I can actually build my wealth faster

522
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:36,879
Speaker 3: using it.

523
00:27:36,920 --> 00:27:38,040
Speaker 2: So yeah, let's talk about.

524
00:27:37,800 --> 00:27:42,280
Speaker 3: The product, So how does the product help me to

525
00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:48,479
Speaker 3: build wealth, store wealth, transfer wealth better than just the

526
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 3: old pay for twenty years and if you die within

527
00:27:50,640 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 3: that time, we're gonna get some money.

528
00:27:51,680 --> 00:27:52,360
Speaker 2: Yeah.

529
00:27:52,400 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: Well, I'm gonna have to start by explaining some boring

530
00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:55,840
Speaker 1: life insurance things.

531
00:27:56,440 --> 00:27:59,320
Speaker 3: So our products are they're important, subjets, pay attention.

532
00:27:59,520 --> 00:28:03,560
Speaker 1: Are our products a whole life product, so it lasts

533
00:28:03,600 --> 00:28:06,320
Speaker 1: your whole life, as opposed to what you're talking about,

534
00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:08,440
Speaker 1: which is term life which at last.

535
00:28:08,320 --> 00:28:10,240
Speaker 3: Insurance survivorsus insurance you rent.

536
00:28:10,359 --> 00:28:14,120
Speaker 1: Yeah, so a whole life last your whole life. And

537
00:28:14,840 --> 00:28:16,280
Speaker 1: not to be the baar or bad news for anyone

538
00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:20,600
Speaker 1: who's watching or listening. Since you will eventually die, there

539
00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: will eventually be a payout. Our product is called limited pay,

540
00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,720
Speaker 1: so you don't pay forever. You pay for ten years,

541
00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:34,320
Speaker 1: although a bunch of people prepay, so you'll sort of

542
00:28:34,359 --> 00:28:38,240
Speaker 1: like pay up front and then there's a fixed guaranteed payout.

543
00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,000
Speaker 2: So I'm just gonna use like relatively large numbers.

544
00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,920
Speaker 1: You might pay like one bitcoin a year for ten years,

545
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:49,280
Speaker 1: and then when you die, your kid's wife beneficiaries will

546
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:50,520
Speaker 1: get fifteen bitcoin.

547
00:28:51,280 --> 00:28:51,440
Speaker 5: Ay.

548
00:28:51,480 --> 00:28:54,719
Speaker 3: Small business owner, are you buried in all types of

549
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,520
Speaker 3: work keeping you from the real thing that makes you money. Well,

550
00:28:57,880 --> 00:29:00,000
Speaker 3: that's where just Works comes in. They're all in one

551
00:29:00,120 --> 00:29:03,400
Speaker 3: platform that supports small business growth. You can get all

552
00:29:03,480 --> 00:29:06,680
Speaker 3: their tools that help with benefits like payroll and HR

553
00:29:06,800 --> 00:29:10,840
Speaker 3: and compliance with transparent pricing. Now they help you hire

554
00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:15,560
Speaker 3: top talent internationally, internew markets, quickly scale international operations without

555
00:29:15,560 --> 00:29:18,640
Speaker 3: the workload, and for every how do I do it? Question?

556
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,160
Speaker 3: You can reach out to their expert staff from sole

557
00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:25,120
Speaker 3: proprietor or a team of twenty. Just Works empowers all

558
00:29:25,200 --> 00:29:28,960
Speaker 3: kinds of small businesses with real human support. So visit

559
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,720
Speaker 3: justworks dot com slash podcast to join the thousands of

560
00:29:32,720 --> 00:29:36,640
Speaker 3: small businesses that trust just Works to take care of payroll, benefits,

561
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 3: compliance and more. Again that's Justworks dot com slash podcasts.

562
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:48,040
Speaker 1: So what are you getting from that? It's it is

563
00:29:48,080 --> 00:29:50,400
Speaker 1: so much more than the fifteen as you're saying. So

564
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:53,680
Speaker 1: the first thing is there is like literal protection. Right,

565
00:29:53,720 --> 00:29:56,280
Speaker 1: so you put in one bitcoin the first year, get

566
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: hit by a bus, your kids get fifteen, so there

567
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: is some like chance you'll do tomorrow and you are

568
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:07,200
Speaker 1: protected from that in a again like inflation hedged, like

569
00:30:07,360 --> 00:30:11,200
Speaker 1: durable store of value you know, fundamentally, if you bought

570
00:30:11,720 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: a whole life insurance policy in twenty eighteen, you've seen

571
00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:22,840
Speaker 1: the value of your that goes to your family decrease

572
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: by thirty percent.

573
00:30:24,320 --> 00:30:28,280
Speaker 3: Because of inflation, not nominally nominally purchasing and purchasing power.

574
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:30,760
Speaker 1: Yes, so you've seen that purchasing power go down, Whereas

575
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:34,080
Speaker 1: if you had bought the same policy in bitcoin, you've

576
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,360
Speaker 1: seen the purchasing power go up. So there's that protection

577
00:30:37,520 --> 00:30:38,440
Speaker 1: in that store of value.

578
00:30:38,920 --> 00:30:41,720
Speaker 3: So for round, I mean, we're just spitballing around the

579
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 3: numbers here, but you're saying that potentially the amount of

580
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,600
Speaker 3: bitcoin I put in could grow by about fifty percent.

581
00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,120
Speaker 2: Yes, that would be for like a forty year old, healthy.

582
00:30:51,240 --> 00:30:54,680
Speaker 3: Forty year old yeah right. Versus, if I was doing

583
00:30:54,720 --> 00:30:57,920
Speaker 3: a traditional FIAT based plan, I might see my wealth

584
00:30:57,960 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 3: go up by one hundred percent or two hundred percent,

585
00:31:01,400 --> 00:31:04,800
Speaker 3: but the purchasing power of that one hundred percent increased

586
00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,160
Speaker 3: fiat went down. Versus, even though my bitcoin would buy

587
00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:10,520
Speaker 3: fifty percent, Not only they get fifty percent increase in bitcoin,

588
00:31:10,560 --> 00:31:11,720
Speaker 3: but I also got the other whatever.

589
00:31:12,040 --> 00:31:12,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

590
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:16,240
Speaker 1: Actually, just to explain why that is is there's sort

591
00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: of like a rate of return in the policy, right,

592
00:31:18,440 --> 00:31:20,960
Speaker 1: so we turn ten into fifteen and we we will

593
00:31:20,960 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: definitely talk about how we do that. But the like

594
00:31:25,320 --> 00:31:29,640
Speaker 1: in a dollar policy, you go buy corporate bonds, there's

595
00:31:29,640 --> 00:31:32,560
Speaker 1: like a treasury yield curve, like people can get seven

596
00:31:32,640 --> 00:31:35,800
Speaker 1: eight nine percent returns and dollars and you compound that

597
00:31:35,840 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: over your lifetime. In our policy, because it's in bitcoin terms,

598
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:42,040
Speaker 1: that is everything we do is every promise we make

599
00:31:42,400 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 1: the whole company is entirely denominated in bitcoin. We make

600
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,920
Speaker 1: a much more conservative promise on the yield because getting

601
00:31:50,000 --> 00:31:53,160
Speaker 1: yielded in bitcoin is you know, is something we're very

602
00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 1: careful about. Yeah, there are no like safe seven percent

603
00:31:56,360 --> 00:32:01,880
Speaker 1: returns in bitcoin, so that's why the ratio is lower.

604
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:06,560
Speaker 1: That actually gets to the second benefit. So the first

605
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:10,640
Speaker 1: is the protection. The second is we are turning ten

606
00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,440
Speaker 1: to fifteen two percent returns. Is at the policy, if

607
00:32:14,480 --> 00:32:18,080
Speaker 1: you could could get two percent returns on your own bitcoin,

608
00:32:19,160 --> 00:32:21,920
Speaker 1: which maybe you can, maybe you can't, you would owe

609
00:32:22,200 --> 00:32:26,960
Speaker 1: income tax every year. So that compounding that growth inside

610
00:32:26,960 --> 00:32:30,440
Speaker 1: the policy is tax free. So in that way, it's

611
00:32:30,480 --> 00:32:33,360
Speaker 1: like a four one K or an ira or any

612
00:32:33,440 --> 00:32:35,479
Speaker 1: number of like tax advantaged.

613
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:37,720
Speaker 2: Vehicles.

614
00:32:38,880 --> 00:32:40,920
Speaker 1: The third thing, which I think you've alluded to a

615
00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:45,200
Speaker 1: few times is that you can take a policy loan

616
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:48,600
Speaker 1: out of the policy. So you're putting this value in

617
00:32:48,680 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: the policy. That value is increasing over time because of

618
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,080
Speaker 1: the savings rate is also increasing over time because of

619
00:32:56,080 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: the price of bitcoin or the purchasing power ability of

620
00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,400
Speaker 1: bitcoin is going up over time. And then we comply

621
00:33:03,600 --> 00:33:07,160
Speaker 1: with all of these complicated US tax rules so that

622
00:33:07,720 --> 00:33:11,440
Speaker 1: US folks can borrow again bitcoin out of the policy

623
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,080
Speaker 1: tax free.

624
00:33:12,520 --> 00:33:13,960
Speaker 2: So that means if bitcoin.

625
00:33:13,680 --> 00:33:19,080
Speaker 1: Is at a million dollars a whole coin or ten

626
00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:22,400
Speaker 1: whatever you think it's going to be, and you need liquidity,

627
00:33:22,920 --> 00:33:25,960
Speaker 1: you can pull value out of the policy without incurring

628
00:33:26,160 --> 00:33:27,400
Speaker 1: new capital gains tax.

629
00:33:28,680 --> 00:33:32,520
Speaker 2: So for most of our policyholders, we're really.

630
00:33:32,360 --> 00:33:34,880
Speaker 1: Talking again about the hoddling, like this is about saving

631
00:33:34,920 --> 00:33:39,040
Speaker 1: for your kids, but also there's this optional like be

632
00:33:39,120 --> 00:33:42,320
Speaker 1: your own bank like wealth building element of it that

633
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:44,760
Speaker 1: if in ten years or fifteen years or twenty years,

634
00:33:44,760 --> 00:33:47,720
Speaker 1: you did want to get some liquidity from your bitcoin,

635
00:33:48,160 --> 00:33:50,160
Speaker 1: this is the vehicle to do it in because if

636
00:33:50,160 --> 00:33:53,240
Speaker 1: you sold bitcoin like out of your self custody wallet,

637
00:33:53,280 --> 00:33:57,920
Speaker 1: you would ow capital gains tax in the whole life.

638
00:33:58,200 --> 00:33:59,719
Speaker 3: Most people sell it as like sort of like this

639
00:33:59,720 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 3: infant banking concept, right, be your own bank kind of concept. Right,

640
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 3: So instead of borrowing money from the bank at eight

641
00:34:04,800 --> 00:34:07,160
Speaker 3: nimes whatever the interest is, I can borrow myself and

642
00:34:07,160 --> 00:34:09,799
Speaker 3: pay myself. The key is paying myself back the same

643
00:34:09,840 --> 00:34:13,280
Speaker 3: interest I would be paying the market se come out ahead.

644
00:34:13,880 --> 00:34:15,560
Speaker 3: And so you're saying you could use it similar in

645
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:15,919
Speaker 3: a way.

646
00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:18,839
Speaker 1: Yes, yes, yes, that we have some policy holders who

647
00:34:18,920 --> 00:34:23,680
Speaker 1: like don't even yet aren't marited of kids, and I

648
00:34:23,719 --> 00:34:26,480
Speaker 1: think it's both that they conceive of their bitcoin wealth

649
00:34:26,640 --> 00:34:29,000
Speaker 1: as like intergenerational savings.

650
00:34:29,800 --> 00:34:33,080
Speaker 3: I'm curious on like a typical whole life policy. You know,

651
00:34:33,160 --> 00:34:35,480
Speaker 3: typically they have like a five percent guaranteed rate of

652
00:34:35,520 --> 00:34:39,480
Speaker 3: return for example, right, you're saying it's like two percent,

653
00:34:39,680 --> 00:34:42,440
Speaker 3: two percent guaranteed, Like they, okay, we have two percent.

654
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,040
Speaker 3: So typically, like I would have a five percent guaranteed

655
00:34:45,120 --> 00:34:50,200
Speaker 3: rate return and then I could borrow at maybe five percent.

656
00:34:50,640 --> 00:34:54,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, So ours works is that we guarantee you two

657
00:34:54,320 --> 00:34:58,160
Speaker 2: percent returns and then in the future you can borrow

658
00:34:58,360 --> 00:35:02,320
Speaker 2: and then our stated int straight charges three percent, which actually,

659
00:35:02,400 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 2: like what companies do is they charge you what they

660
00:35:05,719 --> 00:35:11,880
Speaker 2: expect they could earn on the asset. You're borrowing. Yeah,

661
00:35:11,880 --> 00:35:13,560
Speaker 2: so you are like paying a little bit more than

662
00:35:13,560 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 2: we're guaranteeing you.

663
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:18,759
Speaker 1: And how that works is we end up setting a

664
00:35:18,840 --> 00:35:21,040
Speaker 1: maximum amount that you can borrow out the policy, which

665
00:35:21,080 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: is like ninety percent LTV against like the saving the

666
00:35:25,680 --> 00:35:29,600
Speaker 1: implicit value of the policy. And with that ninety percent

667
00:35:29,719 --> 00:35:36,839
Speaker 1: LTV requirement, you can never owe more than the death

668
00:35:36,880 --> 00:35:38,400
Speaker 1: benefit that you're owed.

669
00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:41,560
Speaker 3: And you're paying two percent compounding. Correct, And so what

670
00:35:41,560 --> 00:35:44,560
Speaker 3: a blood people don't understand is the difference of compounding

671
00:35:44,640 --> 00:35:45,600
Speaker 3: versus simple interest.

672
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 2: Ye.

673
00:35:46,000 --> 00:35:48,880
Speaker 3: Yeah, So if I were to put fifty thousand dollars

674
00:35:48,960 --> 00:35:53,800
Speaker 3: into an account and earn five percent compounding over five years,

675
00:35:53,920 --> 00:35:56,400
Speaker 3: I think I did the math was like sixty seven thousand.

676
00:35:57,000 --> 00:35:59,720
Speaker 3: If I borrowed the five percent back out and paid

677
00:35:59,760 --> 00:36:03,960
Speaker 3: five percent interest, It's like it was like fifty four thousand.

678
00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,000
Speaker 3: It was. It was a nine thousand dollars difference, whatever

679
00:36:06,000 --> 00:36:09,160
Speaker 3: the exact math was. But even though I'm earning five

680
00:36:09,160 --> 00:36:11,520
Speaker 3: percent and then borrowing at five percent, I end up

681
00:36:11,520 --> 00:36:14,760
Speaker 3: with a nine percent, nine thousand dollars advantage because one's

682
00:36:14,800 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 3: earning compounding versus one is simple correct. So I haven't

683
00:36:18,600 --> 00:36:21,960
Speaker 3: done the math on your numbers, but potentially, right, even

684
00:36:22,280 --> 00:36:27,040
Speaker 3: a two percent compounding beats the three percent simple or

685
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,280
Speaker 3: comes out someone.

686
00:36:28,120 --> 00:36:31,400
Speaker 1: Yeahecause they come out basically flat flat.

687
00:36:31,480 --> 00:36:33,319
Speaker 2: Yeah, that's sort of maybe the way to think of it.

688
00:36:33,360 --> 00:36:36,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Yeah, and then at the end of the day,

689
00:36:36,600 --> 00:36:39,960
Speaker 1: you never pay the well, you don't pay the loan back.

690
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:43,920
Speaker 1: You eventually die and again tragically.

691
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:45,640
Speaker 3: And then we don't get out alive.

692
00:36:45,880 --> 00:36:49,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, and then it's like netted against the benefit.

693
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:49,400
Speaker 3: Right.

694
00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:51,200
Speaker 1: So in the example I used earlier, where you've put

695
00:36:51,239 --> 00:36:55,040
Speaker 1: one bit whinning a year for ten years, you're getting

696
00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,120
Speaker 1: fifteen guaranteed when you die or your your kids are beneficiaris.

697
00:37:00,000 --> 00:37:03,480
Speaker 1: And then you know, in year fifteen or whatever, you

698
00:37:03,520 --> 00:37:06,480
Speaker 1: want to borrow five bitcoin out. You borrow that five

699
00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:10,319
Speaker 1: bitcoin out. It's you know, you're being it's a loan,

700
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,359
Speaker 1: so you're like being charged the interest. So let's say

701
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:18,000
Speaker 1: that five becomes seven, you die, then your kids just

702
00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 1: get eight, right, the fifteen minus the seven.

703
00:37:20,239 --> 00:37:20,439
Speaker 3: Right.

704
00:37:21,239 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: So the expectation isn't that people would like actively be

705
00:37:25,560 --> 00:37:27,719
Speaker 1: trading the loan, and that's one of the things that

706
00:37:27,719 --> 00:37:30,600
Speaker 1: people find attractive, right, Like, sometimes you get asked this question,

707
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:33,040
Speaker 1: why couldn't I just go on ave or you know

708
00:37:33,120 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 1: some DeFi protocol, or couldn't I go to the bank

709
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:39,640
Speaker 1: and borrow dollars against the bitcoin. But fundamentally then you're

710
00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:42,359
Speaker 1: dealing with a currency mismatch, and you're dealing with like

711
00:37:42,680 --> 00:37:46,200
Speaker 1: the potential like just you know, month over month volatility

712
00:37:46,239 --> 00:37:49,400
Speaker 1: of bitcoin or you know, having a margin call or whatever.

713
00:37:49,760 --> 00:37:51,880
Speaker 1: In our case, you know, you make the loan and

714
00:37:52,000 --> 00:37:57,120
Speaker 1: like there's no, it's all in bitcoin terms. So it's

715
00:37:57,239 --> 00:38:00,400
Speaker 1: in that way a lot safer and more secure, and

716
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:01,799
Speaker 1: you're getting the tax RFT.

717
00:38:01,800 --> 00:38:03,560
Speaker 3: So when you say it's in bitcoin terms, that mean

718
00:38:03,680 --> 00:38:05,719
Speaker 3: like when I come and make a make up, make

719
00:38:05,719 --> 00:38:07,399
Speaker 3: a loan or request alone, it would be like, hey,

720
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 3: I need two bitcoin, correct versus I need two hundred

721
00:38:09,760 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 3: thousand dollars. But then that would also mean I have

722
00:38:11,880 --> 00:38:14,320
Speaker 3: to pay it back in bitcoin again.

723
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:19,280
Speaker 1: But because you have this death benefit coming in bitcoin terms, yeah,

724
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:21,840
Speaker 1: it's not really like you're not really short bitcoin, because

725
00:38:21,880 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 1: you're right right right, you're a long bitcoin on the

726
00:38:25,239 --> 00:38:25,800
Speaker 1: death benefit.

727
00:38:25,880 --> 00:38:29,319
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. Uh. Debt works really well in

728
00:38:29,320 --> 00:38:32,480
Speaker 3: an inflacenary economy. That doesn't work that works against you

729
00:38:32,520 --> 00:38:34,480
Speaker 3: in a deflationary economy. So that's just something to keep

730
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,080
Speaker 3: in mind. And then I think you know, another strategy

731
00:38:37,080 --> 00:38:38,960
Speaker 3: that people would typically employ on like a whole life

732
00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:41,319
Speaker 3: policy would be like spinning down the death benefit, which

733
00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 3: I think is basically what you're saying, right, it's kind

734
00:38:43,680 --> 00:38:46,840
Speaker 3: of kind of the same thing, right, and then when

735
00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:50,719
Speaker 3: you die in this example as you proposed, right, so

736
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:53,080
Speaker 3: then my kids get the eight bitcoin for example, or

737
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,640
Speaker 3: war the fifteen whatever. Is that tax free?

738
00:38:57,120 --> 00:38:59,280
Speaker 2: Yeah? It is income tax free.

739
00:38:59,160 --> 00:39:02,920
Speaker 3: Income the way not capital.

740
00:39:02,920 --> 00:39:06,880
Speaker 2: Is Yeah, it's capital gains and income tax free. Whether

741
00:39:06,920 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 2: it's a state tax free is a life structuring question.

742
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:15,759
Speaker 1: So the state taxes, yes, state taxes. So that the

743
00:39:15,800 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: way that works is you have a trust, you have

744
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:23,440
Speaker 1: a trust irrevocable. Yeah, you put you have the irrevocable

745
00:39:23,440 --> 00:39:26,880
Speaker 1: trust by the policy, right which we have.

746
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:28,399
Speaker 2: You know users do that.

747
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,920
Speaker 1: So that the way you get insurance policy outside of

748
00:39:32,960 --> 00:39:34,520
Speaker 1: your estate is the same way you get like any

749
00:39:34,560 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: asset outside of your state.

750
00:39:37,239 --> 00:39:38,040
Speaker 2: And you know, we.

751
00:39:38,000 --> 00:39:42,640
Speaker 1: Have policyholders with a range of sophistication and you know,

752
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,400
Speaker 1: different structure goes, so that the estate tax is the

753
00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,080
Speaker 1: only one that like you need like an extra layer

754
00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:51,120
Speaker 1: of planning around and that's.

755
00:39:50,920 --> 00:39:54,000
Speaker 3: Where you need to learn how to use the tool properly. Correct, Right,

756
00:39:54,000 --> 00:39:56,360
Speaker 3: it's a tool, but some people know how to use

757
00:39:56,480 --> 00:39:56,839
Speaker 3: and these.

758
00:39:56,760 --> 00:39:58,840
Speaker 2: Things are actually someone in conflict that we've been talking about.

759
00:39:58,840 --> 00:40:01,120
Speaker 2: Like if what you care about out is.

760
00:40:01,120 --> 00:40:05,280
Speaker 1: Like spending down the policy before you die, you actually

761
00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:07,799
Speaker 1: want to be the owner because you're the one who

762
00:40:07,800 --> 00:40:08,960
Speaker 1: borrows against the policy.

763
00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:11,920
Speaker 2: But if you're primarily.

764
00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,480
Speaker 1: Using it as a tool to pass on uh bitcoin

765
00:40:16,560 --> 00:40:21,680
Speaker 1: to your you know, more bitcoin to your children, then yes,

766
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:23,520
Speaker 1: you put it, you put it inside a trust.

767
00:40:23,920 --> 00:40:26,399
Speaker 3: It gets it gets complex because my trust could borrow

768
00:40:26,440 --> 00:40:28,440
Speaker 3: the money and then it could loan me the money. Correct,

769
00:40:28,480 --> 00:40:30,160
Speaker 3: And we can do layers and yeah.

770
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:35,640
Speaker 1: Your your wife's a beneficiary. Yeah yeah, yeah, so consult

771
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:36,400
Speaker 1: your attorneys.

772
00:40:36,640 --> 00:40:37,160
Speaker 2: Yeah.

773
00:40:37,160 --> 00:40:39,160
Speaker 3: Well, and it needs to be done on an individual

774
00:40:39,239 --> 00:40:42,080
Speaker 3: basis of course. So this is something that that does require,

775
00:40:42,120 --> 00:40:45,279
Speaker 3: you know, I advocate for using tax strategists and tax

776
00:40:45,320 --> 00:40:49,360
Speaker 3: attorneys and then a state state planners and attorneys and

777
00:40:49,360 --> 00:40:51,000
Speaker 3: all those things. I mean obviously depends on the size

778
00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:52,640
Speaker 3: of your state, the more intricate you'd have to be.

779
00:40:52,840 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: But it's exactly what you said, Like I guess just

780
00:40:57,160 --> 00:40:58,560
Speaker 2: to pause and say, to go back.

781
00:40:58,400 --> 00:41:01,600
Speaker 1: To the financial inclusion story for a second, Like our

782
00:41:01,719 --> 00:41:04,400
Speaker 1: ultimate vision, right is if you are a middle class

783
00:41:04,400 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: person in Argentina, you do not buy life insurance because

784
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 1: you are going to live longer than the Argentinian beso

785
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:16,279
Speaker 1: but most likely right, Like just historically there's been there

786
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:18,360
Speaker 1: have been many versions of the Argentinian beso over you

787
00:41:18,400 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: might live longer than the US dollars, you might live

788
00:41:20,200 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 1: longer than the US dollar, right, So that's a core

789
00:41:23,640 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 1: fundamental beginning for us.

790
00:41:25,480 --> 00:41:28,920
Speaker 2: Is most importantly, like.

791
00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,000
Speaker 1: This is a tool in like the true global store

792
00:41:33,040 --> 00:41:35,560
Speaker 1: of value, and like that is why we create the company.

793
00:41:36,000 --> 00:41:36,239
Speaker 3: Now.

794
00:41:36,520 --> 00:41:37,759
Speaker 2: It is also the case.

795
00:41:38,320 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 1: That every country in the world basically that has taxes,

796
00:41:43,520 --> 00:41:48,520
Speaker 1: has tax benefits and tax privileges for life insurance, for annuities,

797
00:41:48,760 --> 00:41:51,799
Speaker 1: for various long term insurance products. And that's what we've

798
00:41:51,840 --> 00:41:54,280
Speaker 1: gotten to this conversation about. So, if you're an American,

799
00:41:55,400 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 1: we've designed the product specifically to serve to comply with

800
00:41:59,760 --> 00:42:00,960
Speaker 1: the time actuals.

801
00:42:00,520 --> 00:42:03,560
Speaker 2: So you can get those benefits. But it is like

802
00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 2: all these things at once.

803
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:09,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, So you mentioned Argentina, So is it available in

804
00:42:09,800 --> 00:42:12,080
Speaker 3: Argentina or is only not your available? But that is

805
00:42:12,080 --> 00:42:15,040
Speaker 3: an aspiration share, Yeah, so a couple of things that

806
00:42:15,080 --> 00:42:16,879
Speaker 3: I think about. So number one, like when I think

807
00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 3: about using these whole life insurance companies, I think about

808
00:42:22,760 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 3: will they be there in fifty years to pay that

809
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,720
Speaker 3: claim once I'm dead? Can they guarantee that five percent

810
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:32,600
Speaker 3: over a long period of time? You know, some of

811
00:42:32,640 --> 00:42:34,840
Speaker 3: these companies has been around for a hundred years or

812
00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,040
Speaker 3: long hundreds of years, hundreds of years. But then I

813
00:42:38,080 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 3: also still worry that, like man, we had a decade

814
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:42,600
Speaker 3: of zero interest rate policies, and how far out on

815
00:42:42,600 --> 00:42:44,680
Speaker 3: the risk curve that they have to go. And now

816
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:47,400
Speaker 3: with the COVID that we went through, like they're probably

817
00:42:47,440 --> 00:42:50,759
Speaker 3: way off sides on their actuaries and like there could

818
00:42:50,760 --> 00:42:53,160
Speaker 3: be a lot of potential risk there. So I think

819
00:42:53,200 --> 00:42:55,759
Speaker 3: about that as we should right tor to mitigate that risk.

820
00:42:56,840 --> 00:43:00,400
Speaker 3: From a bitcoin standpoint, it gets even more risky potentially,

821
00:43:00,440 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 3: I would think. So number one, most people just right

822
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,279
Speaker 3: off the bat, they've been burned by the Celsius and

823
00:43:06,320 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 3: the blockfis and et cetera. And so you know, not

824
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:11,719
Speaker 3: your key's not your coin. If I give it to you,

825
00:43:11,800 --> 00:43:14,400
Speaker 3: I may not get it back. The counterparty risk that's involved,

826
00:43:14,400 --> 00:43:17,000
Speaker 3: and then how much risk there is. So I'm curious

827
00:43:17,040 --> 00:43:20,400
Speaker 3: how you think about mitigating those risks.

828
00:43:20,120 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: Right, I'm whayed to use the word mitigate because like

829
00:43:23,320 --> 00:43:24,880
Speaker 1: in some ways, that's all we can do is we

830
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:27,280
Speaker 1: are in build these things. We can tell our story.

831
00:43:27,360 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 1: People come to trust us. We're very fortunate that a

832
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:32,040
Speaker 1: lot of policy oilers have come to trust us. But

833
00:43:33,000 --> 00:43:38,440
Speaker 1: there's no perfect answer, right, Like, so you mentioned a

834
00:43:38,480 --> 00:43:41,400
Speaker 1: lot of things, but let me start by saying, you know,

835
00:43:41,440 --> 00:43:44,920
Speaker 1: we are regulated in licensed life insurance company in Bermuda,

836
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:51,440
Speaker 1: not the Bahamas. Bermuda is like a legit place where

837
00:43:51,440 --> 00:43:54,360
Speaker 1: many life life insurance and P and C insurance companies

838
00:43:54,360 --> 00:43:57,680
Speaker 1: are down the sid There are quite difficult tourists, difficult

839
00:43:57,680 --> 00:43:58,640
Speaker 1: in the good way there.

840
00:43:58,960 --> 00:44:00,840
Speaker 2: They like provid al of oversight.

841
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: They're really the only offshore jurisdiction that's respected both by

842
00:44:05,480 --> 00:44:09,600
Speaker 1: the American regulatory bodies and the European regulatory bodies.

843
00:44:09,640 --> 00:44:13,560
Speaker 2: There's all this equivalence and stuff. But what that means,

844
00:44:13,840 --> 00:44:14,560
Speaker 2: So why would.

845
00:44:14,360 --> 00:44:16,320
Speaker 3: You go there as opposed to Bahama since it's so

846
00:44:16,640 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 3: much more difficult, Because it's so much more difficult, so

847
00:44:20,080 --> 00:44:23,279
Speaker 3: you could have more trust into we could have set

848
00:44:23,320 --> 00:44:28,080
Speaker 3: this company like it took us almost two years to launch.

849
00:44:29,440 --> 00:44:30,879
Speaker 2: We had to write a giant business plan.

850
00:44:30,960 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 1: We ended to get internal auditor and external auditor and

851
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:37,239
Speaker 1: improved actuary, insurance manager. We had to like convince all

852
00:44:37,239 --> 00:44:39,520
Speaker 1: these people, none of who've ever thought about crypto and

853
00:44:39,520 --> 00:44:42,840
Speaker 1: insurance before. You know, we have a chief risk officer,

854
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:47,640
Speaker 1: chief compliance officer, like seventeen corporate policies under fifty corporate controls.

855
00:44:50,040 --> 00:44:51,640
Speaker 2: We could have set this company.

856
00:44:51,360 --> 00:44:55,319
Speaker 1: Up and came in or the Bahamas or British Virgin

857
00:44:55,400 --> 00:44:59,719
Speaker 1: Islands a lot faster, but being in a jurisdiction that

858
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: people know is trustworthy is super important. But critically they're trustworthy,

859
00:45:05,680 --> 00:45:11,320
Speaker 1: they're difficult, they're maybe difficult, they're challenging. They provide a

860
00:45:11,320 --> 00:45:14,840
Speaker 1: lot of oversight and this is also where coinbases offshore

861
00:45:14,840 --> 00:45:18,439
Speaker 1: operations are. They're also like very innovative. They want things

862
00:45:18,480 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 1: to happen on the island. And in that way we

863
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:22,080
Speaker 1: were able to have a dialogue.

864
00:45:22,239 --> 00:45:24,879
Speaker 3: I think they're the first country with the CBDC. Yeah,

865
00:45:25,000 --> 00:45:27,000
Speaker 3: they're very was it Bahamas?

866
00:45:27,000 --> 00:45:30,960
Speaker 1: I think I I Other than they have a CBDC,

867
00:45:31,320 --> 00:45:31,799
Speaker 1: they have a.

868
00:45:33,080 --> 00:45:34,640
Speaker 3: What it called the shell CBDC.

869
00:45:35,000 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: There's a very interesting history on the the monetary policies

870
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 1: of you know that I won't get to do here.

871
00:45:43,200 --> 00:45:45,560
Speaker 3: Anyway we want it. It was Bahamas. Yeah, sorry, it

872
00:45:45,600 --> 00:45:46,160
Speaker 3: was Bahamas.

873
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 2: I'm against it.

874
00:45:49,160 --> 00:45:53,080
Speaker 1: So one is that there is a lot of oversight

875
00:45:53,400 --> 00:45:58,600
Speaker 1: and like, true, we're not like Block five, who was

876
00:45:58,680 --> 00:46:01,840
Speaker 1: essentially like acting like a band in this unregular fashion.

877
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,600
Speaker 1: Like we started by saying like we need to be

878
00:46:05,680 --> 00:46:10,880
Speaker 1: regulated and licensed, and what that ends up meaning in

879
00:46:10,960 --> 00:46:15,160
Speaker 1: practice is that, as I said, like, we're in the

880
00:46:15,160 --> 00:46:17,560
Speaker 1: process right now of getting an external audit.

881
00:46:17,760 --> 00:46:20,440
Speaker 2: You know something that many people in crypto have never had.

882
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: Right, we we have to post a bunch of capital. Right,

883
00:46:26,200 --> 00:46:28,759
Speaker 1: That's how insurance companies work. So we have we as

884
00:46:28,760 --> 00:46:30,680
Speaker 1: a company have a bunch of our own bitcoin in

885
00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:34,239
Speaker 1: a company and then users you know, pay us premiums

886
00:46:34,800 --> 00:46:36,440
Speaker 1: and then we invest that corpus.

887
00:46:36,520 --> 00:46:39,200
Speaker 2: But our our capital is like first of loss capital. Right.

888
00:46:39,239 --> 00:46:43,160
Speaker 1: It's like we made some mistakes, the bermuna monetary authority

889
00:46:43,200 --> 00:46:45,160
Speaker 1: would shut us down and we would have to like

890
00:46:45,200 --> 00:46:47,920
Speaker 1: give everyone their money back, right, and we would be

891
00:46:47,960 --> 00:46:51,560
Speaker 1: the ones who lost the like our bitcoin first.

892
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:51,839
Speaker 2: Right.

893
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:59,000
Speaker 1: So the way we gain trust is sort of like

894
00:46:59,080 --> 00:47:02,680
Speaker 1: walking people through you mentioned how it's it can be

895
00:47:02,760 --> 00:47:06,919
Speaker 1: like a complicated thing to think about every single policyholder.

896
00:47:06,960 --> 00:47:09,120
Speaker 1: We have, every single person who comes to our website

897
00:47:09,120 --> 00:47:12,320
Speaker 1: and signs up, Me or my colleague Ganny get on

898
00:47:12,400 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 1: the phone and we talk to them and we talk

899
00:47:15,040 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: them through the enterprise risk management framework and we talk

900
00:47:17,600 --> 00:47:20,840
Speaker 1: them through. This is exactly why to go back. We

901
00:47:21,880 --> 00:47:25,839
Speaker 1: promised two percent returns because, yeah, is there a chance

902
00:47:25,880 --> 00:47:27,920
Speaker 1: we could be the wrong way on that. There is,

903
00:47:28,640 --> 00:47:31,359
Speaker 1: but we definitely don't think there are seven percent risk

904
00:47:31,400 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 1: adjusted returns to be made into COO and that's not

905
00:47:33,680 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 1: where we want to be on the risk curve. So

906
00:47:36,239 --> 00:47:40,319
Speaker 1: we deliberately made it a number that we thought we

907
00:47:40,320 --> 00:47:44,680
Speaker 1: could achieve. And every single thing we do is in

908
00:47:44,719 --> 00:47:48,239
Speaker 1: that conservative nature, like the product is priced conservatively. We

909
00:47:48,760 --> 00:47:50,960
Speaker 1: to be honest, we reject a ton of people because

910
00:47:51,000 --> 00:47:54,080
Speaker 1: every single person we take on that's a liability, right.

911
00:47:54,200 --> 00:47:55,719
Speaker 2: So we do underwriting.

912
00:47:55,800 --> 00:47:58,279
Speaker 1: We make sure you're healthy, but that not only is

913
00:47:58,320 --> 00:48:02,680
Speaker 1: about that person, it's about protect ding the entire company.

914
00:48:03,239 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: We have a you know, a credit committee, have.

915
00:48:05,400 --> 00:48:08,239
Speaker 3: Sides on that risk correct the insurance companies go down.

916
00:48:08,480 --> 00:48:12,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, and then on the asset management side, you know, look,

917
00:48:12,680 --> 00:48:15,840
Speaker 1: we have something that no one else has in bitcoin,

918
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 1: which is we have duration, right, like users are trusting

919
00:48:20,920 --> 00:48:25,680
Speaker 1: us with their bitcoin for decades, and so we trade

920
00:48:25,800 --> 00:48:29,480
Speaker 1: duration to counterparties. But what we want is credit production,

921
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: and we're really conservative, like we want we're not going

922
00:48:34,800 --> 00:48:39,520
Speaker 1: to a Voyager or three Arrows like respectable name brand

923
00:48:39,640 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 1: institutional counterparties. We demand a lot of collateral or security seniority,

924
00:48:47,800 --> 00:48:50,759
Speaker 1: and we're like running a private credit desk in.

925
00:48:50,719 --> 00:48:54,520
Speaker 2: Bitcoin, and we walk people through that.

926
00:48:54,480 --> 00:48:59,480
Speaker 1: All and again, I think we're fortunate that that has

927
00:48:59,560 --> 00:49:02,200
Speaker 1: given a lot of people in assurance.

928
00:49:03,760 --> 00:49:05,000
Speaker 2: But the tax benefits are good too.

929
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 3: Let's talk about that a little bit, right, So if

930
00:49:08,800 --> 00:49:12,719
Speaker 3: this is really fitting for a bitcoiner, which is, as

931
00:49:12,760 --> 00:49:15,319
Speaker 3: you kind of said, a long term Hoddler holder, right,

932
00:49:15,360 --> 00:49:17,080
Speaker 3: which which should be. I mean, if you're a bitcoin

933
00:49:17,120 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 3: you should be thinking long term. I try to tell

934
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:21,239
Speaker 3: people all the time, and it gets annoying, but I

935
00:49:21,320 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 3: understand this is where we are in society today. But

936
00:49:24,360 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 3: you know, where's bitcoin going to be by the end

937
00:49:26,680 --> 00:49:29,960
Speaker 3: of the month. Hey, it's January. It hasn't gone up,

938
00:49:29,960 --> 00:49:31,480
Speaker 3: but you said it would go up in January, right,

939
00:49:32,040 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: And I just tell people like, man, if you're looking

940
00:49:33,719 --> 00:49:35,400
Speaker 3: at your portfolio on a monthly basis, like you're just

941
00:49:35,440 --> 00:49:36,200
Speaker 3: you're never gonna move.

942
00:49:36,320 --> 00:49:38,480
Speaker 1: I should say this is the best thing about running

943
00:49:38,480 --> 00:49:41,879
Speaker 1: a life insurance company, is I tell like I get

944
00:49:41,920 --> 00:49:43,279
Speaker 1: asked all the time, like what do I think is

945
00:49:43,280 --> 00:49:45,120
Speaker 1: gonna happen with the press bitcoin? And I say, I

946
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,480
Speaker 1: have no idea. I don't know what's going to do today, tomorrow,

947
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,880
Speaker 1: this week, this month, even this year. What I the

948
00:49:51,920 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: conviction I have to have and I won't try to

949
00:49:54,880 --> 00:49:57,799
Speaker 1: get our pulseholders to have is I believe bitcoin will

950
00:49:57,840 --> 00:49:59,960
Speaker 1: have more purchasing power in twenty.

951
00:49:59,800 --> 00:50:01,839
Speaker 2: Years, in thirty years and forty years.

952
00:50:01,920 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, and that's the timeline that we're thinking on.

953
00:50:05,880 --> 00:50:09,560
Speaker 3: Yeah, but I also feel like figuring out where it

954
00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 3: will be in ten twenty thirty years is easier than

955
00:50:11,560 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 3: where it will be in ten twenty days or But

956
00:50:14,480 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 3: what I was going to say, though, is so if

957
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:20,360
Speaker 3: you if you think about it long term, then a

958
00:50:20,400 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 3: strategy like this can work. Because I'm thinking long term,

959
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:25,919
Speaker 3: and so ultimately my goal to get it from ten

960
00:50:25,960 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 3: to fifteen over you know, decades makes sense for me.

961
00:50:30,360 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 3: And so some of the ways I can do that.

962
00:50:31,520 --> 00:50:34,520
Speaker 3: Number one, compounding at two percent great, but also like

963
00:50:34,600 --> 00:50:37,960
Speaker 3: tax efficiencies, correct, right, So I mean if people are

964
00:50:37,960 --> 00:50:40,480
Speaker 3: trading their bitcoin, they could potentially be losing up to

965
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:44,719
Speaker 3: fifty percent short term you know gains or whatever. So

966
00:50:44,800 --> 00:50:46,319
Speaker 3: think about every you know, every time you try and

967
00:50:46,320 --> 00:50:49,240
Speaker 3: buy and sell around the cycles, you're losing fifty percent

968
00:50:49,320 --> 00:50:51,920
Speaker 3: at a time. As suppose you're just like so, I

969
00:50:51,920 --> 00:50:55,680
Speaker 3: guess maybe some of the tax efficient strategies. What would

970
00:50:55,680 --> 00:50:57,440
Speaker 3: be a couple of things that you would tell someone

971
00:50:57,440 --> 00:51:00,960
Speaker 3: who is long term focused A couple of the things

972
00:51:01,000 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 3: that they may want to think about as far as

973
00:51:03,080 --> 00:51:06,560
Speaker 3: like really increasing their stack using this type of a

974
00:51:06,600 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 3: tool in a couple of maybe ways that most people

975
00:51:08,840 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 3: wouldn't think of that really helps them increase their stack.

976
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,920
Speaker 1: Well, there's a question of like this tool and in general,

977
00:51:15,920 --> 00:51:17,760
Speaker 1: And I just want to start by saying I completely

978
00:51:17,840 --> 00:51:20,960
Speaker 1: agree with you in that I think very few people

979
00:51:21,080 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: have the ability to or the luck to like time

980
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: the markets carefully. There's a lot of like transactional costs

981
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:33,320
Speaker 1: to like selling and buying bitcoin. I'm like relatively proud

982
00:51:33,360 --> 00:51:36,320
Speaker 1: of just like setting it and forgetting it on coinbase.

983
00:51:36,360 --> 00:51:40,120
Speaker 1: I'm not necessarily advocating for Coinbase, but like I just

984
00:51:40,160 --> 00:51:43,840
Speaker 1: dollar cost average into bitcoin over you know, seven or

985
00:51:43,880 --> 00:51:46,160
Speaker 1: eight years, and I think that was a great decision

986
00:51:46,200 --> 00:51:48,920
Speaker 1: for me. I think like that that's a great way

987
00:51:48,960 --> 00:51:53,440
Speaker 1: to think about it. But yes, this policy in some ways,

988
00:51:53,480 --> 00:51:56,560
Speaker 1: like I'm designed a whole company to solve my own.

989
00:51:56,520 --> 00:51:59,520
Speaker 3: Problem, right, Like, okay, I have two kids, that's the

990
00:51:59,520 --> 00:52:00,600
Speaker 3: way to starts.

991
00:52:00,760 --> 00:52:02,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, like I have two kids.

992
00:52:02,400 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 1: I believe that bitcoin will be significantly more valuable in

993
00:52:07,800 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: purchasing power terms in the long future.

994
00:52:11,000 --> 00:52:13,600
Speaker 2: That's not year to year, but certainly decade to decade.

995
00:52:14,239 --> 00:52:21,319
Speaker 1: And life insurance is for me. Both instills discipline in

996
00:52:21,360 --> 00:52:25,359
Speaker 1: that like it's in this policy, and it has like

997
00:52:25,440 --> 00:52:29,600
Speaker 1: the tax benefits that we mentioned. The other thing actually

998
00:52:29,680 --> 00:52:32,640
Speaker 1: is like you know, there's a whole other angle, like

999
00:52:32,680 --> 00:52:35,280
Speaker 1: we have a legal obligation to make sure your beneficiaries

1000
00:52:35,320 --> 00:52:38,760
Speaker 1: get the payouts like the best of our ability. And

1001
00:52:39,160 --> 00:52:42,680
Speaker 1: there are like tragic stories about people who like mismarriage

1002
00:52:42,719 --> 00:52:47,840
Speaker 1: their keys or you know, there they die and their

1003
00:52:48,120 --> 00:52:50,040
Speaker 1: like wife has no idea how to get their bitcoin

1004
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,520
Speaker 1: or doesn't know where it's buried. So you know, that's

1005
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:57,560
Speaker 1: also there's just like practical operational legacy benefits to insurance

1006
00:52:58,000 --> 00:53:02,799
Speaker 1: to the life insurance product. But I want to like

1007
00:53:02,960 --> 00:53:08,320
Speaker 1: connect your two questions and say, like we're very honest

1008
00:53:08,320 --> 00:53:10,319
Speaker 1: about what we do, right, like, and there's a lot

1009
00:53:10,320 --> 00:53:12,760
Speaker 1: of things that are uncomfortable, like you send us bitcoin,

1010
00:53:13,880 --> 00:53:15,319
Speaker 1: and there's a real reason for that, by the way,

1011
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,919
Speaker 1: because the like a lot of what tax and estate

1012
00:53:17,960 --> 00:53:20,839
Speaker 1: planning is about is like getting whatever your asset is

1013
00:53:20,880 --> 00:53:24,359
Speaker 1: like just slightly outside your reach, because that is what

1014
00:53:24,440 --> 00:53:25,680
Speaker 1: makes it like it's.

1015
00:53:25,560 --> 00:53:27,280
Speaker 3: Not part of force the discipline.

1016
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:29,879
Speaker 1: Yeah no, no no, but it's not just for I mean

1017
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,960
Speaker 1: like legally, Like that's what makes it like not taxable, right,

1018
00:53:34,560 --> 00:53:37,760
Speaker 1: is that it's not something that you can like actively manage.

1019
00:53:37,840 --> 00:53:42,040
Speaker 1: So we take possession of your bitcoin, we have possession

1020
00:53:42,040 --> 00:53:44,560
Speaker 1: of everyone else's bitcoin, so there's like a hypothecation, and

1021
00:53:44,600 --> 00:53:48,480
Speaker 1: then we do like super conservative lending with the bitcoin

1022
00:53:48,760 --> 00:53:54,759
Speaker 1: mostly like way over claudalized. Actually, there's some interesting things

1023
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 1: we're doing there, but that's uncomfortable.

1024
00:53:59,120 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: All three of those things are comfortable.

1025
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:04,439
Speaker 1: And what we find in every like bitcoiner's heart is

1026
00:54:04,840 --> 00:54:10,160
Speaker 1: this tension between a like like love and desire for

1027
00:54:10,200 --> 00:54:13,680
Speaker 1: self custody on the one hand, and they like, uh

1028
00:54:15,840 --> 00:54:19,320
Speaker 1: love a good tax optimization on the other And people

1029
00:54:19,320 --> 00:54:22,040
Speaker 1: are just on that spectrum. And the thing that we

1030
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,560
Speaker 1: are very clear about is like maybe this isn't necessarily

1031
00:54:25,640 --> 00:54:26,920
Speaker 1: for all of your bitcoin.

1032
00:54:27,160 --> 00:54:29,000
Speaker 3: Well that's a great point, I was right.

1033
00:54:28,880 --> 00:54:31,400
Speaker 2: Like, people, you have some self custody, maybe you.

1034
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,520
Speaker 3: Have don't put all your money into insurance. You don't

1035
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:35,320
Speaker 3: put all your money in there like you own other things.

1036
00:54:35,480 --> 00:54:38,840
Speaker 1: Yeah, and maybe you have some at like costs our

1037
00:54:38,960 --> 00:54:41,239
Speaker 1: unchain and some multi six solution and maybe you have

1038
00:54:41,320 --> 00:54:43,880
Speaker 1: some in the ETF I don't know, and maybe you

1039
00:54:43,920 --> 00:54:48,200
Speaker 1: have like some in in this product. And like another

1040
00:54:48,239 --> 00:54:51,520
Speaker 1: thing that people love is we have a max. Like

1041
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:54,000
Speaker 1: so our smallest policy size is one bitcoin, so that's

1042
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:57,000
Speaker 1: a tenth of bitcoin paid over ten years. Our biggest

1043
00:54:57,000 --> 00:54:59,840
Speaker 1: policy that we'll accept is up to a death benefit

1044
00:54:59,880 --> 00:55:03,480
Speaker 1: of fifty but particularly for like really big whales who

1045
00:55:03,480 --> 00:55:06,600
Speaker 1: have been like burned five lock fine other things. When

1046
00:55:06,800 --> 00:55:10,000
Speaker 1: we say like we can only take like twenty five

1047
00:55:10,040 --> 00:55:13,120
Speaker 1: of your bitcoin, like you want to give us war,

1048
00:55:13,239 --> 00:55:17,279
Speaker 1: we can't take it, And I think that, like the

1049
00:55:17,320 --> 00:55:21,359
Speaker 1: point is, like we and that's so the reason we.

1050
00:55:21,320 --> 00:55:23,480
Speaker 2: Do that, by the way, is if if you take.

1051
00:55:23,320 --> 00:55:25,120
Speaker 1: Too much risk on one person's life and then you

1052
00:55:25,200 --> 00:55:27,040
Speaker 1: just get un lucky, that person gets hit by a bus.

1053
00:55:27,080 --> 00:55:29,279
Speaker 3: See, then you're screwed, right and like.

1054
00:55:29,600 --> 00:55:33,080
Speaker 1: Right, so we're like every choice we make is a

1055
00:55:33,200 --> 00:55:37,600
Speaker 1: choice to be long term. What juristiction we're in, like

1056
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,800
Speaker 1: limiting our policy size, like who's our independent board members,

1057
00:55:41,840 --> 00:55:46,480
Speaker 1: like all the way down, because I fundamentally just to

1058
00:55:46,520 --> 00:55:51,040
Speaker 1: be selfish for a moment, like this is going to

1059
00:55:51,080 --> 00:55:55,520
Speaker 1: be a huge company, Like it is such a fundamental

1060
00:55:55,560 --> 00:56:01,080
Speaker 1: financial service, like in this rapidly growing economy, and the

1061
00:56:01,120 --> 00:56:04,040
Speaker 1: only way I'm going to screw it up just reselve it.

1062
00:56:04,040 --> 00:56:06,320
Speaker 1: The only way I'm not going to make like billions

1063
00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:11,840
Speaker 1: of dollars is if we screw up who we ensure

1064
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: or we screw up acid management. So like we do,

1065
00:56:15,080 --> 00:56:19,120
Speaker 1: we work really hard to make sure those things are

1066
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:22,080
Speaker 1: are right. Yeah, I want to wrap this up, but

1067
00:56:22,080 --> 00:56:24,000
Speaker 1: I want to ask you one other question. So you

1068
00:56:24,000 --> 00:56:26,880
Speaker 1: know we're thinking long term here, we're thinking death benefits

1069
00:56:26,920 --> 00:56:28,320
Speaker 1: to our beneficiaries.

1070
00:56:28,360 --> 00:56:31,920
Speaker 3: We're gone. This is something I spent a lot of

1071
00:56:31,960 --> 00:56:36,239
Speaker 3: time thinking about. Legacy. You're a father. There's a big

1072
00:56:36,320 --> 00:56:39,279
Speaker 3: growing movement and especially really seems to be strong in

1073
00:56:39,320 --> 00:56:43,080
Speaker 3: the bitcoin community but also globally. Right, there's a best

1074
00:56:43,080 --> 00:56:46,560
Speaker 3: selling book Die with zero. Really, the FIAT system is

1075
00:56:46,640 --> 00:56:49,200
Speaker 3: designed to like save up, live off my savings and

1076
00:56:49,239 --> 00:56:51,759
Speaker 3: hopefully die at zero. Right, the books die with zero,

1077
00:56:53,600 --> 00:56:55,760
Speaker 3: and a lot of people, especially in the bitcoin community,

1078
00:56:55,800 --> 00:56:58,080
Speaker 3: I see, I'm saying, Oh, leaving money for your kids

1079
00:56:58,160 --> 00:57:01,080
Speaker 3: is terrible. Jimmy Song went back and forth with me

1080
00:57:01,120 --> 00:57:02,399
Speaker 3: on that, like, you can't leave money for your kids,

1081
00:57:02,400 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 3: You'll ruin your kids. Allahah, I disagree. What's your take?

1082
00:57:07,120 --> 00:57:12,319
Speaker 3: How do you think through legacy planning passing down to

1083
00:57:12,360 --> 00:57:14,719
Speaker 3: your kids, your kids, kids, kids kids? Is that good?

1084
00:57:14,760 --> 00:57:14,920
Speaker 1: Bad?

1085
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:16,360
Speaker 3: How do you do? How do you think about that?

1086
00:57:18,200 --> 00:57:18,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's interesting.

1087
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:21,200
Speaker 1: His a tension between like die with hero and like

1088
00:57:21,320 --> 00:57:25,040
Speaker 1: retire my bloodline. Those are like the two like estate

1089
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:29,640
Speaker 1: planning or memes inside the bitcoin community.

1090
00:57:30,400 --> 00:57:33,760
Speaker 2: Look, I I understand.

1091
00:57:34,000 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: I haven't talked to him about it, but like I

1092
00:57:35,400 --> 00:57:38,600
Speaker 1: sort of understand this idea to go all the way

1093
00:57:38,600 --> 00:57:42,040
Speaker 1: back to like entrepreneurship to agency, like how do you

1094
00:57:42,760 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: inculcate in your children a desire to be more than

1095
00:57:48,120 --> 00:57:53,480
Speaker 1: what you give them and to strive to like make

1096
00:57:53,520 --> 00:57:56,280
Speaker 1: their lives better, to make their kids' lives better, to

1097
00:57:56,320 --> 00:57:59,400
Speaker 1: make the world better. And I sort of think that

1098
00:57:59,400 --> 00:58:03,400
Speaker 1: that's some thing that's so important and worth working on.

1099
00:58:04,160 --> 00:58:08,440
Speaker 1: But that doesn't mean that you should deprive them of

1100
00:58:08,440 --> 00:58:09,680
Speaker 1: of everything you've.

1101
00:58:10,480 --> 00:58:11,480
Speaker 2: You've worked for either.

1102
00:58:12,120 --> 00:58:15,680
Speaker 1: I think having a legacy for your children and maybe

1103
00:58:15,720 --> 00:58:19,800
Speaker 1: your children's children, although that's well, your children's children will

1104
00:58:19,840 --> 00:58:23,480
Speaker 1: know your children's children's children is a little more abstract.

1105
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,480
Speaker 1: I think it's worth planning for, and it's worth thinking about,

1106
00:58:26,520 --> 00:58:27,480
Speaker 1: and it's worth.

1107
00:58:29,120 --> 00:58:33,680
Speaker 2: Designing, you know, a little bit of your life to

1108
00:58:33,720 --> 00:58:36,919
Speaker 2: think about that. I have to believe that. I guess

1109
00:58:36,960 --> 00:58:39,000
Speaker 2: I started the life insurance company.

1110
00:58:38,720 --> 00:58:43,440
Speaker 3: Right But how are you thinking about it for your Yeah? No,

1111
00:58:43,680 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 3: I mean they're young right now.

1112
00:58:46,440 --> 00:58:49,760
Speaker 1: I was the first policyholder of meanwhile, so I don't

1113
00:58:49,760 --> 00:58:55,160
Speaker 1: want to so I.

1114
00:58:53,240 --> 00:58:58,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think it's it's it's a hard question, you know. Sometimes.

1115
00:58:59,000 --> 00:59:03,120
Speaker 1: You know, I had a relatively tough upbringing, and I

1116
00:59:03,200 --> 00:59:07,520
Speaker 1: noticed of a lot of the entrepreneurs, I know they

1117
00:59:07,520 --> 00:59:10,400
Speaker 1: have some like childhood trauma or life trauma, and that

1118
00:59:10,480 --> 00:59:15,560
Speaker 1: like motivates them, and you don't want to You want

1119
00:59:15,560 --> 00:59:18,040
Speaker 1: your children to not be traumatized, but then you also

1120
00:59:18,120 --> 00:59:21,880
Speaker 1: want them to like work hard, and.

1121
00:59:21,920 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 2: I that that.

1122
00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:30,840
Speaker 1: I think that tension exists outside the question of whether

1123
00:59:31,360 --> 00:59:32,960
Speaker 1: you should leave them some wealth.

1124
00:59:33,440 --> 00:59:36,040
Speaker 2: I think you should.

1125
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,080
Speaker 1: Because like what are you or that's part of what

1126
00:59:39,120 --> 00:59:41,200
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm working for is for my children.

1127
00:59:44,000 --> 00:59:48,040
Speaker 1: And then additionally, I'm also like think a lot about

1128
00:59:48,080 --> 00:59:52,920
Speaker 1: like how you inculcate those virtues in your children to

1129
00:59:55,040 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: not necessarily decide what I would decide, but how to

1130
01:00:00,480 --> 01:00:01,400
Speaker 1: you know, be wise.

1131
01:00:03,240 --> 01:00:06,080
Speaker 3: So the way I think about it is that money

1132
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:09,840
Speaker 3: doesn't make kids bad. Yeah, okay, so if you're if

1133
01:00:09,840 --> 01:00:11,720
Speaker 3: you raise good kids, hopefully they'll be goo kids if

1134
01:00:11,720 --> 01:00:15,400
Speaker 3: you raise bad kids. So money seems to exaggerate or magnifying, right,

1135
01:00:15,920 --> 01:00:17,920
Speaker 3: So I loved what you said, right, which is like,

1136
01:00:18,120 --> 01:00:19,840
Speaker 3: you know, not just helping the kids, but the world.

1137
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:22,320
Speaker 3: So I just think about, like we earn wealth, we

1138
01:00:22,360 --> 01:00:25,440
Speaker 3: create wealth by solving problems, which is providing values to

1139
01:00:25,440 --> 01:00:29,200
Speaker 3: the world. I think about money being important to help

1140
01:00:29,240 --> 01:00:31,600
Speaker 3: my family have options and help more people in the world.

1141
01:00:31,960 --> 01:00:34,600
Speaker 3: So if I think that we should use money to

1142
01:00:35,040 --> 01:00:38,040
Speaker 3: solve problems in the world, I want my kids to

1143
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,760
Speaker 3: think about having money and solving problems in the world.

1144
01:00:42,080 --> 01:00:46,280
Speaker 3: So if my kids want to be actively solving problems

1145
01:00:46,280 --> 01:00:48,080
Speaker 3: in the world, they should have access to the money.

1146
01:00:48,600 --> 01:00:54,040
Speaker 3: If they want to have access to partying and drugs

1147
01:00:54,080 --> 01:00:56,640
Speaker 3: and doing nothing, then they probably shouldn't have access to

1148
01:00:56,640 --> 01:01:00,480
Speaker 3: the money, right, I shouldn't enable that, right, so then

1149
01:01:00,680 --> 01:01:03,000
Speaker 3: you know how good have I raised my kids? They say,

1150
01:01:03,080 --> 01:01:05,479
Speaker 3: the sign of a good father is not how good

1151
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,160
Speaker 3: their kids turn out, but how good their grandkids turn out.

1152
01:01:08,880 --> 01:01:10,960
Speaker 3: So I think about that. And then what we've done

1153
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,200
Speaker 3: inside of our trust is set up a family constitution.

1154
01:01:15,400 --> 01:01:18,439
Speaker 3: So then the family constitution is a guideline of what

1155
01:01:18,720 --> 01:01:21,600
Speaker 3: my values are, the way I view the world, the

1156
01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 3: way that I think we should be bringing value to

1157
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:25,720
Speaker 3: the world. We should take care of our health, we

1158
01:01:25,760 --> 01:01:27,760
Speaker 3: should take care of others, all these types of things.

1159
01:01:28,160 --> 01:01:31,760
Speaker 3: And then there's like restrictions. So then it's like the

1160
01:01:31,840 --> 01:01:35,440
Speaker 3: trust then is managed to a constitution, just like a

1161
01:01:35,520 --> 01:01:41,360
Speaker 3: US constitution would have, and then the trustee will determine

1162
01:01:41,440 --> 01:01:44,040
Speaker 3: if the errors and it could be kids, kids kids, kids,

1163
01:01:44,120 --> 01:01:46,840
Speaker 3: kids are living up to the terms of that constitution

1164
01:01:47,400 --> 01:01:50,240
Speaker 3: and if they're not exuding the values and virtues of

1165
01:01:50,280 --> 01:01:52,560
Speaker 3: that constitution, then they don't.

1166
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:53,360
Speaker 2: Get access to the money.

1167
01:01:53,440 --> 01:01:56,920
Speaker 3: And then making sure that the money is there to

1168
01:01:57,200 --> 01:02:01,640
Speaker 3: help them do more but not hurt them. So for example,

1169
01:02:01,840 --> 01:02:05,080
Speaker 3: you know if they have if they are able to

1170
01:02:05,160 --> 01:02:08,600
Speaker 3: qualify to buy a house. Certainly will give them the

1171
01:02:08,640 --> 01:02:10,640
Speaker 3: money to buy that, like as a down payment on

1172
01:02:10,640 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 3: the house, certainly, right, But if they're just doing nothing,

1173
01:02:13,040 --> 01:02:15,240
Speaker 3: they don't get the money. If they want to launch

1174
01:02:15,240 --> 01:02:18,240
Speaker 3: a business that they have a sound business idea and

1175
01:02:18,320 --> 01:02:21,880
Speaker 3: plan for, they can have the money to start a business, right,

1176
01:02:21,920 --> 01:02:24,720
Speaker 3: And so the just guardrails put onto it things like that.

1177
01:02:25,120 --> 01:02:28,320
Speaker 3: You know, these are things like the Rockefellers did so well, right.

1178
01:02:28,160 --> 01:02:31,560
Speaker 1: That's actually that was immediately what I was thinking about

1179
01:02:30,520 --> 01:02:35,200
Speaker 1: as they the multi generational trusts like lack of Fellers

1180
01:02:35,280 --> 01:02:35,960
Speaker 1: or the Preskers.

1181
01:02:36,240 --> 01:02:37,919
Speaker 3: Yeah, so those worked really well. But then it comes

1182
01:02:37,920 --> 01:02:40,680
Speaker 3: with like what type of education am I put into

1183
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:42,720
Speaker 3: the family? And the Rockefellers have taken it way more

1184
01:02:42,720 --> 01:02:45,560
Speaker 3: serious where they each generation then has to go through

1185
01:02:45,720 --> 01:02:48,880
Speaker 3: right education and all those things. But anyway, I was

1186
01:02:48,920 --> 01:02:50,480
Speaker 3: just curious you take on it, and I guess to

1187
01:02:50,560 --> 01:02:51,960
Speaker 3: the point that you said your money is where your

1188
01:02:51,960 --> 01:02:54,960
Speaker 3: mouth is, so to speak. Obviously you believe in generational

1189
01:02:54,960 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 3: wealth because you started a life insurance company. H Man,

1190
01:02:59,480 --> 01:03:03,080
Speaker 3: we covered a has gone long. That's great. I love it.

1191
01:03:03,120 --> 01:03:04,960
Speaker 3: Like I said, I spent a lot of time at

1192
01:03:04,960 --> 01:03:06,640
Speaker 3: this stage of my life as I've gotten older, my

1193
01:03:06,720 --> 01:03:09,480
Speaker 3: kids are getting older. I think about it a lot.

1194
01:03:09,760 --> 01:03:13,760
Speaker 3: I think just from a long term Hoddler perspective, Bill

1195
01:03:13,800 --> 01:03:16,280
Speaker 3: Gates said, who I don't like to quote, but Bill

1196
01:03:16,320 --> 01:03:19,760
Speaker 3: Gates said that people overestimate what they can do in

1197
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:21,720
Speaker 3: a year, but underestimate what they can do in ten.

1198
01:03:22,360 --> 01:03:24,720
Speaker 3: And I think that really applies to building wealth, right

1199
01:03:24,720 --> 01:03:27,240
Speaker 3: because like kind of going back to the story I

1200
01:03:27,240 --> 01:03:30,240
Speaker 3: said earlier about people working forty years and getting two

1201
01:03:30,280 --> 01:03:32,560
Speaker 3: weeks of vacation a year, they hope to have a

1202
01:03:32,600 --> 01:03:35,200
Speaker 3: million or two million dollars when they retire, and so

1203
01:03:35,480 --> 01:03:38,280
Speaker 3: like to increase your stack by fifty percent, which could

1204
01:03:38,320 --> 01:03:41,560
Speaker 3: be millions and millions and millions, Like they don't underestimate that,

1205
01:03:41,680 --> 01:03:44,400
Speaker 3: Like the tax efficiencies you could gain could be more

1206
01:03:44,400 --> 01:03:46,440
Speaker 3: than what most people would hope to make over that

1207
01:03:46,480 --> 01:03:50,440
Speaker 3: time period. So good stuff. We're going to link to

1208
01:03:50,560 --> 01:03:52,360
Speaker 3: your stuff down in the show notes down below if

1209
01:03:52,360 --> 01:03:55,000
Speaker 3: anybody wants to get in touch with you guys. I meanwhile,

1210
01:03:55,360 --> 01:03:56,760
Speaker 3: we'll link to that down below if they want to

1211
01:03:56,760 --> 01:03:59,600
Speaker 3: get in touch with you, and they you also want

1212
01:03:59,600 --> 01:04:01,000
Speaker 3: to close it out with no.

1213
01:04:01,320 --> 01:04:05,800
Speaker 1: Thanks for having me, Mark, and I'm I'm so glad

1214
01:04:05,840 --> 01:04:10,560
Speaker 1: you're familiar with like the virtues of of life insurance

1215
01:04:10,560 --> 01:04:13,000
Speaker 1: and that we were able to talk talk through it.

1216
01:04:13,120 --> 01:04:15,920
Speaker 1: I'm you know, we we take it very seriously, the

1217
01:04:15,920 --> 01:04:18,840
Speaker 1: obligation that we're we're making to every single one of

1218
01:04:18,880 --> 01:04:23,040
Speaker 1: our policy holders, and there's nothing more important to us,

1219
01:04:23,040 --> 01:04:25,440
Speaker 1: and I'm really glad to have got to talk get

1220
01:04:25,440 --> 01:04:25,800
Speaker 1: through with you.

1221
01:04:26,200 --> 01:04:27,280
Speaker 3: Cool. Thanks, all right,