WEBVTT - Diamonds and Rust: Bob Dylan vs. Joan Baez 0:00:00.280 --> 0:00:14.240 Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone, 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:16.720 and welcome to Rivals, the show about music feuds and 0:00:16.800 --> 0:00:20.599 beefs and long swimmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and 0:00:20.600 --> 0:00:22.880 I'm Jordan's and I'm so excited for this one, I 0:00:22.880 --> 0:00:26.320 can't even hide it. We've got Bob Dylan, Joan Bayaz, 0:00:26.600 --> 0:00:30.000 you know, Beauty. It's incredible because, you know, Bob Dylan 0:00:30.120 --> 0:00:33.000 is an artist with many faces. There's the woody worshiping 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:36.280 protest singer. There's the pill popping mod dandy. There's the 0:00:36.360 --> 0:00:39.920 Nashville troubadour, there's the born again Christian. But we never 0:00:39.960 --> 0:00:43.560 really get to talk about Bob Dylan, the bad boyfriend. 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:47.080 You know, it remains really tragically under disgust. And I'm 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:49.479 kind of kidding, but this whole story really does kind 0:00:49.479 --> 0:00:50.879 of humanize them in a way that I think it's 0:00:50.960 --> 0:00:53.760 really rare, and you know, especially because Lord knows, Joan 0:00:53.800 --> 0:00:56.560 won't stand for, you know, any deifying which you know, 0:00:56.640 --> 0:00:59.120 God bless her. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be upfront in 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.280 this episode. Um, Bob Dylan is my favorite artist of 0:01:02.320 --> 0:01:05.720 any kind. He's my favorite musician, my favorite writer, my 0:01:05.800 --> 0:01:09.120 favorite persona or I guess set of personas he's my 0:01:09.120 --> 0:01:12.320 favorite everything. But I'll admit that whenever I watch a 0:01:12.360 --> 0:01:15.280 Bob Dylan documentary or read a Bob Dylan book, and 0:01:15.319 --> 0:01:18.520 trust me, I've like watched many documentaries about this man 0:01:18.600 --> 0:01:20.800 and read many books, I'm always excited to hear from 0:01:20.959 --> 0:01:24.360 Joan Baias because she knew him in a way that 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.520 I feel like most people don't know him. Not that 0:01:27.560 --> 0:01:30.520 she understands him exactly. I mean, she's set up front 0:01:30.560 --> 0:01:32.839 that she doesn't understand him, and I don't think anyone 0:01:32.880 --> 0:01:36.800 really understands Bob Dylan, but she's witnessed the less mythic 0:01:36.920 --> 0:01:39.360 version of Bob Dylan, shall we say. I mean she 0:01:39.480 --> 0:01:42.240 was there at a pivotal point in his career early on, 0:01:42.319 --> 0:01:44.319 she played a major role in making him a star, 0:01:44.880 --> 0:01:48.000 and she observed the changes in him as he became 0:01:48.040 --> 0:01:51.040 this iconic figure in the mid nineties sixties. And it's 0:01:51.080 --> 0:01:53.920 true that she has some like pretty withering things to 0:01:53.920 --> 0:01:55.880 say about him, and like we're gonna go through that 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:59.560 in this episode, but I feel like there's also genuine 0:01:59.560 --> 0:02:02.800 admireation and even affection that she still has for Dylan, 0:02:02.880 --> 0:02:05.160 and I feel like the reverse is true as well. 0:02:05.200 --> 0:02:07.440 I think Dylan still has a place in his heart 0:02:07.520 --> 0:02:11.320 for Joan Bias, and you mentioned the crappy boyfriend thing earlier. 0:02:11.360 --> 0:02:14.040 I feel like he's like expressed remorse for that, although 0:02:14.040 --> 0:02:15.720 maybe not as much as he should have. Right it 0:02:15.760 --> 0:02:17.760 took him, i'd say, about a good half a century, 0:02:17.760 --> 0:02:19.000 which you know, I don't know what the statute of 0:02:19.000 --> 0:02:21.920 limitations is on apologizing and being a bad boyfriend, but 0:02:22.320 --> 0:02:25.639 that's pushing it. You mentioned understanding Dylan, which I think 0:02:25.680 --> 0:02:27.840 is such an interesting choice of words, because you know, 0:02:27.880 --> 0:02:30.239 any other artist where I own like more than two 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:33.840 thirds of their discography on multiple formats, read half a 0:02:33.840 --> 0:02:36.560 dozen books on their lives, watched hours of documentary, I 0:02:36.600 --> 0:02:40.360 would consider myself a pretty major fan. But for Bob Dylan, 0:02:40.440 --> 0:02:44.040 that's just like entry level dylanology. That's just like syllinology, 0:02:44.440 --> 0:02:47.239 the syllabus for like dyllannology, one on one. And it's 0:02:47.240 --> 0:02:49.480 just so interesting is the intensity of his fan base 0:02:49.560 --> 0:02:52.280 is just so total. I mean, obviously that speaks to 0:02:52.360 --> 0:02:54.720 the depth and quality of his work, but it almost 0:02:54.760 --> 0:02:57.200 makes me fearful discussing him because there's just so many 0:02:57.240 --> 0:02:59.640 interpretations not only his lyrics, but even just like his 0:02:59.720 --> 0:03:01.480 inner views, like what did he mean when he when 0:03:01.520 --> 0:03:04.480 he said that? So I don't know. He's such a 0:03:04.480 --> 0:03:07.760 fascinating figure, and I feel like, uh. Joan, on the 0:03:07.760 --> 0:03:10.880 other hand, just doesn't sugarcoat it, doesn't code it in 0:03:11.080 --> 0:03:13.480 any kind of imagery whatsoever. She's so much more direct, 0:03:13.880 --> 0:03:16.519 So I almost feel like in this story it kind 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:18.959 of tends to skew more her way because she actually 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.680 lays it all out there, whereas Bob has been much 0:03:21.720 --> 0:03:23.760 more opaque over the years. But even if it is 0:03:23.760 --> 0:03:26.320 skewing her way, I feel like she's been again pretty 0:03:26.320 --> 0:03:29.240 even handled in like the documentaries I've seen, and you know, 0:03:29.280 --> 0:03:31.880 again like she'll make it clear when he was a jerk. 0:03:32.200 --> 0:03:35.160 But then she also is very sure to say that 0:03:35.320 --> 0:03:37.720 she thinks he's a genius and that she's very moved 0:03:38.160 --> 0:03:40.720 by what he's done. I remember one documentary she said, 0:03:40.840 --> 0:03:43.400 you know, no matter what Bob Dylan does, always forgiven 0:03:43.440 --> 0:03:45.640 as soon as he starts singing, which I think is 0:03:45.640 --> 0:03:47.960 an incredible thing. I think what draws me to the 0:03:48.000 --> 0:03:50.240 story is that it reminds me in a way of 0:03:50.320 --> 0:03:53.120 like a star is born, you know, that classic show 0:03:53.160 --> 0:03:56.720 biz love story, except the genders are reversed and no 0:03:56.800 --> 0:03:59.840 one died fully Thankfully. It also reminds me a little 0:04:00.000 --> 0:04:02.960 of a previous Rivals episode that we did, our first one, 0:04:03.000 --> 0:04:06.960 which was on Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. Although I 0:04:07.040 --> 0:04:11.400 wonder if in this scenario, if Bob Dylan is Stevie Nicks, 0:04:12.200 --> 0:04:15.040 I can see that I'm gonna vote that Joan is 0:04:15.080 --> 0:04:17.080 more Stevie, not only because I find it to be 0:04:17.120 --> 0:04:19.360 the more sympathetic character in this and I find Stevie 0:04:19.600 --> 0:04:22.000 to be the more sympathetic character in Fleetwood Mac, but 0:04:22.080 --> 0:04:24.880 also I think about how Stevie supported Lindsay back when 0:04:24.880 --> 0:04:27.560 they were first making music together. She was taking waitressing 0:04:27.640 --> 0:04:29.880 jobs and made jobs and stuff while he stayed at 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:32.640 home and wrote I feel like Joan kind of played 0:04:32.680 --> 0:04:34.840 a similar role to Bob, kind of giving him that 0:04:34.880 --> 0:04:37.240 platform to be the most Bob that he could be, 0:04:37.480 --> 0:04:39.760 and to really kind of he could sort of follow 0:04:39.839 --> 0:04:42.320 in her wake, so to speak. And and uh, I 0:04:42.320 --> 0:04:44.799 mean because she literally gave him an audience. I guess 0:04:44.800 --> 0:04:47.279 I feel like Bob might be the Stevie because she 0:04:47.440 --> 0:04:50.080 he ended up being the bigger star and Lindsay was 0:04:50.240 --> 0:04:53.160 the stronger one at the beginning artistically, and then Stevie 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.800 surpassed him. But maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves. We 0:04:56.800 --> 0:04:59.320 should get into the background of this story first before 0:04:59.320 --> 0:05:02.440 we start Perry Pop Dolan to Stevie Nicks. Perhaps, so 0:05:03.200 --> 0:05:09.840 without further ado, let's get into this mess. So Joan 0:05:09.920 --> 0:05:11.920 came on the scene first. Her father had taken a 0:05:11.960 --> 0:05:14.800 faculty position at m I T. So Joan gotter start 0:05:14.839 --> 0:05:17.599 singing coffee shops and small clubs around Cambridge in a 0:05:17.680 --> 0:05:20.080 late fifties and she was still just a teenager. Was 0:05:20.120 --> 0:05:22.640 crazy how young she was. And she met a guy 0:05:22.720 --> 0:05:25.520 named Bob Gibson who was a big key figure in 0:05:25.520 --> 0:05:27.080 the folk music scene at the time. And you know 0:05:27.160 --> 0:05:30.440 the folk song All My Trials, kind of like an 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:33.640 anthem at like early sixties protest marches and stuff. He 0:05:33.680 --> 0:05:36.520 was the guy who popularized that great beautiful song. Uh. 0:05:37.040 --> 0:05:40.240 In many black and white documentries you'll hear that song. Yes, 0:05:40.320 --> 0:05:43.360 it's like in the way that um fortunate Son would 0:05:43.360 --> 0:05:45.880 be like late sixties All My Trials is like the 0:05:45.880 --> 0:05:49.640 early sixties standard stock, like early sixties documentary go to song. 0:05:49.839 --> 0:05:53.440 So Bob Gibson, Big Deal invites Joan to sing at 0:05:53.440 --> 0:05:56.040 the Newport Folk Festival in nineteen fifty nine, the annual 0:05:56.080 --> 0:05:58.359 Folk Summit for for you know, Pete Seeger in the 0:05:58.360 --> 0:06:01.599 whole the whole Gang, and that's really what launched her career. 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:04.080 And they sang two duets. They sang Virgin Mary had 0:06:04.080 --> 0:06:06.080 One Son and we were crossing the River Jordan or 0:06:06.080 --> 0:06:09.719 the Jordan River, and the response was absolutely overwhelming. It 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.000 basically led to her getting her first record contract. In 0:06:12.080 --> 0:06:15.160 nineteen sixty, when she was nineteen years old, she released 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:20.000 her self titled debut and it became this really unlikely hit. 0:06:20.080 --> 0:06:22.359 It was just a bunch of traditional folk ballads and 0:06:22.400 --> 0:06:26.000 it made the Top twenty, and she very quickly became 0:06:26.160 --> 0:06:29.760 probably the most recognizable mainstream figure of the folk revival 0:06:30.160 --> 0:06:32.839 this side of like the Kingston Trio. She notched a 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.000 couple of gold albums in the early sixties. She's on 0:06:35.000 --> 0:06:38.159 the cover of Time magazine, was on TV all the time. 0:06:38.600 --> 0:06:41.320 And I think it was a mix of incredible talent. 0:06:41.440 --> 0:06:44.240 I mean, you know, her her piercing soprano, incredible intricate 0:06:44.279 --> 0:06:46.680 guitar work that I think Bob Dylan later said that 0:06:46.720 --> 0:06:49.440 she could play rings around him. So there was definitely that, 0:06:49.800 --> 0:06:51.680 and you know, I hate to say this, and I 0:06:51.760 --> 0:06:54.520 say this with all due respect to her musicality. Her 0:06:54.560 --> 0:06:57.160 looks in her image played a huge role. It's the 0:06:57.200 --> 0:07:00.640 early sixties. This is the time when JF A h 0:07:00.880 --> 0:07:03.280 A lot of people think that the election that year 0:07:04.839 --> 0:07:07.039 went in his favor because of the televised debates with 0:07:07.120 --> 0:07:10.200 Richard Nixon. Media is becoming a lot more immediate, and 0:07:10.240 --> 0:07:13.600 she has a look that plays really well. Yeah, I'm 0:07:13.600 --> 0:07:15.600 gonna be a little more frank and say that Joan 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:19.920 Bayaz is a beautiful woman, Okay. And she sounded great, 0:07:20.320 --> 0:07:23.080 She looked amazing, She looked like a pop star while 0:07:23.120 --> 0:07:26.000 also having the credibility of like you said, she was 0:07:26.040 --> 0:07:29.280 a great guitar player, she could sing beautifully, and she 0:07:29.520 --> 0:07:33.680 was whipped smart and had a real political consciousness. So yeah, 0:07:33.720 --> 0:07:36.000 it was like the complete package with Joe Baida. Oh yeah, 0:07:36.000 --> 0:07:38.080 the color of the barefoot madonna in the press, which 0:07:38.080 --> 0:07:39.720 I always thought was a great, great name. But but 0:07:39.760 --> 0:07:44.400 you're right, she's not only talented and beautiful, absolutely brilliant. 0:07:44.400 --> 0:07:46.640 And it's a showcase in her political activism. She goes 0:07:46.640 --> 0:07:49.840 down to Mississippi to help integrate schools. So many examples 0:07:49.840 --> 0:07:53.280 of her just in public taking these great moral stands, 0:07:53.680 --> 0:07:55.240 and she really kind of becomes like sort of the 0:07:55.760 --> 0:07:58.680 social conscious of the folk scene, and many of her 0:07:58.720 --> 0:08:01.880 songs are embraced by all the protest movements of the time. Uh. 0:08:02.040 --> 0:08:05.080 She influenced the whole generation of rising singers Judy Collins, 0:08:05.120 --> 0:08:08.240 Emmy Lou Harris, Joni Mitchell, Bonnie Rate all ciders and inspiration, 0:08:08.840 --> 0:08:12.160 as does a young Robert Zimmerman who's watching her on 0:08:12.200 --> 0:08:16.080 TV in Minnesota. UH. In his two thousand four autobiography Chronicles, 0:08:16.120 --> 0:08:18.440 he talks about seeing her on TV for the first time. 0:08:18.960 --> 0:08:20.960 He wrote, I couldn't stop looking at her and didn't 0:08:21.000 --> 0:08:23.240 want to blink. The sight of her made me sigh 0:08:23.880 --> 0:08:26.280 all that, and then there was the voice, a voice 0:08:26.280 --> 0:08:29.240 that drove out bad spirits. She's sang in a voice 0:08:29.280 --> 0:08:33.080 straight to God. Nothing she did didn't work. Beautiful thing 0:08:33.160 --> 0:08:36.160 to say about someone. Yeah, he's very effusive. Although there's 0:08:36.160 --> 0:08:38.640 another quote that he had, um I think it's in 0:08:38.679 --> 0:08:41.360 the Direction Home documentary where he said he saw her 0:08:41.400 --> 0:08:43.040 on TV and he said, oh, I think she needs 0:08:43.040 --> 0:08:47.800 a singing partner. So yeah, definitely very Dylanesque type balance 0:08:47.880 --> 0:08:50.320 there of like genuine reverence and he was also having 0:08:50.360 --> 0:08:53.920 some bravado there. In the documentary, Joan and Bob end 0:08:54.000 --> 0:08:57.680 up meeting in and this is I think a little 0:08:57.720 --> 0:09:00.520 bit after Bob had arrived in New York. He rives 0:09:00.559 --> 0:09:04.760 in January sixty one, and her reaction to him, I 0:09:04.760 --> 0:09:06.480 think is similar to like how a lot of people 0:09:06.520 --> 0:09:08.760 reacted when they first saw Bob Dylan, that he was 0:09:08.840 --> 0:09:14.040 this sort of dirty street urchin looking character and he 0:09:14.120 --> 0:09:16.320 had a lot of like baby fat on his face. 0:09:16.800 --> 0:09:20.040 There wasn't really anything exceptional about him really, like when 0:09:20.040 --> 0:09:23.080 you first looked at him. Um. But of course, Bob 0:09:23.120 --> 0:09:26.560 Dylan ends up going through an incredible artistic and personal 0:09:26.600 --> 0:09:31.559 evolution during this time that even now it's hard to comprehend, 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:35.680 like how quickly he became Bob Dylan, the guy that 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.160 was going to be writing these incredible songs that uh, 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.360 we still love today. With Jone, it seems like because 0:09:42.360 --> 0:09:44.319 she wrote in her memoir about again like not being 0:09:44.400 --> 0:09:47.040 terribly impressed by him. But on the other hand, she 0:09:47.160 --> 0:09:50.760 did have enough foresight to recognize the quality of one 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.400 of his earliest songs, which is Sung to Woody, which 0:09:53.520 --> 0:09:55.920 is I think the only song that he wrote for 0:09:55.960 --> 0:09:59.280 his first record. Otherwise that first record is like all 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.800 rs and the types of covers that, like other folk 0:10:02.880 --> 0:10:05.439 singers in New York we're playing at that time. Of course, 0:10:05.800 --> 0:10:08.200 his second record, which comes out in sixty two, Free 0:10:08.240 --> 0:10:10.920 Will and Bob Dylan is the one that has Masses 0:10:10.960 --> 0:10:13.280 of War and Heart Reign is Gonna Fall and Blown 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:15.960 in the Wind and Girl from the North Country. And 0:10:16.200 --> 0:10:19.120 he's already becoming Bob Dylan at that point. But Joan 0:10:19.200 --> 0:10:21.800 meets Bob, isn't terribly impressed, but wants to play one 0:10:21.800 --> 0:10:24.800 of his songs. Bob, of course meets Joan, he's already 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.920 seen her on TV. I imagine him having like the 0:10:27.920 --> 0:10:30.320 wildly coyote eyes, you know, that like bug out of 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.240 his skull, you know, because not only is this a 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:36.120 celebrity essentially, but she's again, like as we said, she's 0:10:36.200 --> 0:10:40.760 this beautiful, charismatic woman. And it seems like the attraction 0:10:42.120 --> 0:10:45.440 soon became mutual. And I wondered to what degree Joan 0:10:45.520 --> 0:10:49.120 was just sort of drawn in by the exploding talent 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:51.320 that Bob Dylan was starting to display at this time, 0:10:51.360 --> 0:10:53.839 But at any rate, she ended up inviting him to 0:10:55.080 --> 0:11:00.520 her family's home in northern California, and she really starts 0:11:00.520 --> 0:11:03.439 taking him under her wing. Like you know, he didn't 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:06.199 have a lot of money at this time, but she 0:11:06.400 --> 0:11:08.600 provided a space for him where he could start writing 0:11:08.640 --> 0:11:12.120 these songs. And it's interesting because I think about there 0:11:12.160 --> 0:11:15.079 was that Martin Scorsese documentary that came out in the 0:11:15.160 --> 0:11:18.320 Rolling Thunder review, and there's a famous scene in that 0:11:18.320 --> 0:11:20.360 movie that we're gonna talk about later in this episode. 0:11:21.840 --> 0:11:25.240 But in that scene, Bob Dylan makes reference to being 0:11:25.240 --> 0:11:28.360 at this house near the Pacific Ocean and writing songs 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:31.200 very quickly, and I assume that that's a reference to 0:11:31.240 --> 0:11:33.320 this time, you know, like when they were first kind 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.760 of getting together and again having this dynamic of him 0:11:36.840 --> 0:11:40.439 being this unusual guy with a squeaky voice and her 0:11:40.520 --> 0:11:43.120 being this big star that is gonna like show him 0:11:43.160 --> 0:11:44.880 to the world. I mean, it seems like what they 0:11:44.880 --> 0:11:47.560 were at the beginning, absolutely. I mean, she would invite 0:11:47.640 --> 0:11:50.800 him to perform with her on many cases, most famously 0:11:50.800 --> 0:11:53.679 at the New Fork Folk Festival in uh in sixty three. 0:11:53.800 --> 0:11:56.280 She was kind of repaying the favor from Bob Gibson, 0:11:56.800 --> 0:12:00.440 and that is sort of like similar for her the 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:02.599 moment that he really just goes stratospheric. I mean, you 0:12:02.800 --> 0:12:06.960 couldn't craft a moment that is more perfect for his 0:12:07.040 --> 0:12:09.079 sort of ascension. You know, he where he's sort of 0:12:09.120 --> 0:12:11.160 part of the continuum of wood. He got three to 0:12:11.200 --> 0:12:14.240 Pete Seeger to Bob Dylan's He closes I think the 0:12:14.240 --> 0:12:17.079 first night of the festival with everybody's joined on stage 0:12:17.080 --> 0:12:19.560 by Joan, Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary and the 0:12:19.640 --> 0:12:22.760 s NCCS Freedom Singers, and they all join hands and 0:12:22.800 --> 0:12:25.520 sing blown in the Wind and we Shall Overcome. It's 0:12:25.559 --> 0:12:28.240 a beautiful moment. And that really is kind of when 0:12:28.280 --> 0:12:32.199 he arrives um and Joan is still bringing him out 0:12:32.240 --> 0:12:34.959 on her tours and there are people booing him, and she, 0:12:35.360 --> 0:12:36.679 I think she wrote in her memoir she had to 0:12:36.679 --> 0:12:38.760 get all schoolmarm and kind of wag her finger at 0:12:38.800 --> 0:12:41.000 them and say, no, look, I know this guy sounds 0:12:41.000 --> 0:12:42.760 a little weird. I know you're sort of used to 0:12:42.800 --> 0:12:45.520 my pitch perfect voice and he sounds like Bob Dylan. 0:12:45.760 --> 0:12:48.560 But listen to the words. This guy is a genius. 0:12:48.840 --> 0:12:50.360 Oh it's so good. I mean. And she tells this 0:12:50.440 --> 0:12:52.240 great story too, when she's trying to get him a 0:12:52.240 --> 0:12:55.680 hotel room, and I guess he's turned away because he's 0:12:55.720 --> 0:12:58.120 still like in Full Wood, he gut three attire with 0:12:58.200 --> 0:13:00.679 like you know, rope for suspenders and stuff like that. 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:01.960 He looks like he just came off the back of 0:13:02.000 --> 0:13:04.280 a box car and they wouldn't give him a room 0:13:04.320 --> 0:13:06.280 and she had to pull her you know, do you 0:13:06.320 --> 0:13:09.200 know who I am? Card? Basically and uh and and 0:13:09.240 --> 0:13:11.120 she goes over to him later and he'd written when 0:13:11.160 --> 0:13:13.559 the Ship Comes In based on this whole exchange. But 0:13:13.720 --> 0:13:15.840 she always thought was such a true mark of his 0:13:15.960 --> 0:13:21.960 talent of just of feeling just so rejected and responding 0:13:21.960 --> 0:13:24.920 with this absolutely incredible song. Yeah. You know, like when 0:13:25.000 --> 0:13:26.959 you were talking about that Newport moment, it just made 0:13:27.000 --> 0:13:29.640 me think of, like, that's the moment if we're going 0:13:29.679 --> 0:13:31.280 to compare this to a Star is Born, because I'm 0:13:31.280 --> 0:13:34.040 gonna I'm gonna be bringing the Stars Born analogy into 0:13:34.040 --> 0:13:37.400 this episode in the scenario, like Joan Baiaz is essentially 0:13:37.400 --> 0:13:41.640 like the Jackson Maine figure bringing in Bob Dylan, who 0:13:41.720 --> 0:13:44.600 is the Lady Gaga if you will, and they're gonna 0:13:44.600 --> 0:13:47.520 say shallow together and this is the moment that it 0:13:47.559 --> 0:13:51.079 turns Bob Dylan slash Lady Gaga into a star. Is 0:13:51.120 --> 0:13:53.720 that a fair submission? Of like what the scenario is. 0:13:54.080 --> 0:13:56.600 I think it's absolutely a fair as summation. I think 0:13:56.640 --> 0:13:59.240 also there's the added element of Joan being sort of 0:13:59.240 --> 0:14:02.480 the honey for Bob's songs. I mean a lot of 0:14:02.480 --> 0:14:04.800 people at that time, in the early years of Bob's 0:14:04.840 --> 0:14:06.920 career aren't listening to him because they're so turned off 0:14:06.920 --> 0:14:10.200 by his voice. But Joan sings his songs for him, 0:14:10.480 --> 0:14:13.240 and kind of it's what's able to put his songs 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:15.240 across to a mass medium early in the career when 0:14:15.280 --> 0:14:18.880 they're not really used to. So she's providing the honey. 0:14:18.920 --> 0:14:23.920 But she's also pushing Dylan in a more political direction. 0:14:23.960 --> 0:14:28.040 Of course, he's already writing these great anthems that people 0:14:28.040 --> 0:14:31.600 will be singing at marches for the next fifty plus years. Again, 0:14:31.640 --> 0:14:35.160 Blown in the Wind Times, they are changing masters of war, 0:14:35.680 --> 0:14:39.080 with God on our side, all these wonderful songs. But 0:14:39.560 --> 0:14:41.920 it seems like one of the first cracks in their 0:14:41.960 --> 0:14:45.360 relationship is that Joan wants to go even farther in 0:14:45.400 --> 0:14:48.000 that direction at the moment where Bob wants to pull 0:14:48.080 --> 0:14:51.840 back right right. I mean, she's like literally on the 0:14:51.840 --> 0:14:54.360 front lines down in Mississippi. I mean, Bob goes down 0:14:54.400 --> 0:14:56.840 there too, and he sings only upon in their game 0:14:56.880 --> 0:14:58.960 and when the ship comes in later that fall to 0:14:59.000 --> 0:15:01.920 vote voter registration and rally. But he really is trying 0:15:01.920 --> 0:15:04.200 to back off. He doesn't want to be the guy. 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:09.320 He doesn't want that responsibility. And she later expressed remorse 0:15:09.400 --> 0:15:11.160 for trying to push him further and further into sort 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:13.680 of engaging in acts of civil disobedience. And I think 0:15:13.840 --> 0:15:17.240 Joan got arrested untold number of times in the sixties 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:21.000 for being at them on the front lines of when 0:15:21.040 --> 0:15:24.080 the troops were being shipped off to Paris Island in 0:15:24.160 --> 0:15:28.920 different uh, different places where boot camps and things like that. 0:15:29.080 --> 0:15:30.840 He didn't want to do that. He really didn't want 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:33.720 to be that guy. And she was expressed remorse in 0:15:33.800 --> 0:15:37.000 later years for not recognizing that his acts were the 0:15:37.040 --> 0:15:39.920 songs that was his gift to the movement, not being 0:15:40.160 --> 0:15:42.120 I wonder, you know, and this is gonna be me 0:15:42.160 --> 0:15:46.080 psychoanalyzing Bob and Joan here. I wonder if on some 0:15:46.160 --> 0:15:50.880 level Bob Dylan started to look at Joan Bias as 0:15:50.880 --> 0:15:53.080 like a symbol of like what he was starting to 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:57.800 resent about the folk world, you know, the strident politics, 0:15:58.240 --> 0:16:02.280 the musical conservatism, like the rigidity of that scene. It's 0:16:02.480 --> 0:16:05.080 you know, obviously we all know that Dylan goes electric 0:16:05.120 --> 0:16:09.080 story and him writing songs like Positively Fourth Street where 0:16:09.240 --> 0:16:13.400 he is really lashing out at those people. And I 0:16:13.480 --> 0:16:17.200 just wonder if he came to look at Joan Bayaz, 0:16:17.240 --> 0:16:20.800 who again was this beautiful symbol of that music scene 0:16:20.800 --> 0:16:22.400 really was like the figurehead in a lot of ways, 0:16:22.400 --> 0:16:25.880 at least like in the pop music end of folk music. 0:16:26.520 --> 0:16:29.560 I just wonder if maybe that fueled how he came 0:16:29.600 --> 0:16:32.040 to look at her and how he starts to treat 0:16:32.080 --> 0:16:35.280 her as their relationship starts to crumble a little bit 0:16:35.680 --> 0:16:37.680 um like I think about. I don't know if you 0:16:37.720 --> 0:16:40.600 remember this scene in No Direction Home, there's a there's 0:16:40.640 --> 0:16:42.880 an interview clip where Joan Bayaz is talking about how 0:16:42.920 --> 0:16:46.280 at one point Bob Dylan said to her, hey, let's 0:16:46.320 --> 0:16:50.440 go headline Carnegie Hall or or some other big music venue, 0:16:50.920 --> 0:16:52.840 and Joan Baias says, well, what are you gonna do 0:16:52.920 --> 0:16:55.800 with it? You know? The implication being that if we're 0:16:55.800 --> 0:16:58.200 going to become big stars, that it ought to be 0:16:58.640 --> 0:17:02.320 to further some sort of politic the end, and it's 0:17:02.360 --> 0:17:05.400 clear that like Bob Dylan like by nineteen sixty four 0:17:06.480 --> 0:17:08.520 was not thinking in those terms in his career or 0:17:08.600 --> 0:17:11.160 in his art, Like he's looking at the beats. He's 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:14.160 looking at like the French modernist writers, and he doesn't 0:17:14.160 --> 0:17:15.840 want to be hemmed in. He doesn't want to be 0:17:15.920 --> 0:17:19.119 a politician. He wants to be an artist, and it 0:17:19.160 --> 0:17:22.840 seems like that really becomes something that is beginning to 0:17:22.880 --> 0:17:25.960 drive them apart. Yeah. Absolutely. You can see that on 0:17:26.119 --> 0:17:29.080 his next release, Another Side of Bob Dylan in August 0:17:29.119 --> 0:17:32.960 nineteen sixty four, and it's really a political and the 0:17:32.960 --> 0:17:35.720 reaction from folk purists were it was sort of like 0:17:35.720 --> 0:17:37.760 a mini Dylon goes Electric moment, and they thought he 0:17:37.800 --> 0:17:41.560 was abandoning the cause and wasn't living up to his responsibilities. 0:17:41.640 --> 0:17:43.680 That was I think the underlying things that he has 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:46.560 responsibilities and Bob didn't want them. And you know, I 0:17:46.600 --> 0:17:48.399 always think of that scene in the Life of Brian 0:17:48.520 --> 0:17:51.159 with the you know, the the Judean People's Front. Have 0:17:51.200 --> 0:17:53.399 you ever seen the Monty Python movie when it's just 0:17:53.440 --> 0:17:55.639 all these little cliques that all hate each other and 0:17:55.640 --> 0:17:58.119 then just the infighting and everything. I always got the 0:17:58.119 --> 0:18:00.600 impression that he sort of viewed the the prous movement 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.639 by like late sixty four, like that as sort of 0:18:03.640 --> 0:18:07.080 this seconcestuous group that really that was forced him to 0:18:07.080 --> 0:18:08.919 be something he didn't want to be. I think the 0:18:08.960 --> 0:18:10.880 other thing that's starting to happen to around this time 0:18:10.880 --> 0:18:13.720 and again this is bringing back the stars born analogy 0:18:13.800 --> 0:18:16.880 here where Bob Dylan is Lady Gaga. I just want 0:18:16.880 --> 0:18:20.240 to put that thought into the minds of listeners Bob 0:18:20.600 --> 0:18:23.639 Bob Dylan and the star is born, where he is 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:27.000 becoming a bigger star, and not only a bigger star, 0:18:27.040 --> 0:18:29.399 but like a hipper star, Like he's moving into a 0:18:29.440 --> 0:18:33.000 realm of music, where like he is the point person 0:18:33.440 --> 0:18:36.439 for the culture. Like the Beatles are looking to Bob Dylan, 0:18:36.600 --> 0:18:38.959 the Rolling Stones are looking to Bob Dylan, like whatever 0:18:38.960 --> 0:18:41.800 this guy is doing, we want to follow him. And 0:18:42.200 --> 0:18:45.760 Joan Baya is as great as she is at being 0:18:45.840 --> 0:18:50.520 that barefoot Madonna figure, you know that that archetypical sixties 0:18:50.520 --> 0:18:53.840 folk singer, It really starts to become really like a 0:18:53.840 --> 0:18:56.399 pass a idea, like that kind of folk music is 0:18:56.440 --> 0:18:58.359 not going to be very cool as we move into 0:18:58.680 --> 0:19:04.080 the mid sixties. And I feel like that tension, that 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:07.879 career tension, was also something that was really starting to 0:19:08.400 --> 0:19:11.760 hurt the relationship. Yeah, there was a great story where 0:19:11.800 --> 0:19:14.520 they were having dinner, Bob and Joan up in uh 0:19:14.560 --> 0:19:17.560 in Woodstock, and there was a woman across the restaurant 0:19:17.760 --> 0:19:20.040 just sort of making eyes at him all night and 0:19:20.040 --> 0:19:23.120 and Bob meanwhile, was just pounding the veno. And by 0:19:23.160 --> 0:19:24.720 the end of the night, this woman comes over and 0:19:24.720 --> 0:19:28.080 basically just throws herself at him. And Joan is furious 0:19:28.119 --> 0:19:30.560 for two reasons. I mean, one, you know, another woman 0:19:30.640 --> 0:19:33.400 is now in her man's lap. And also she she wrote, 0:19:33.440 --> 0:19:35.120 I think in her memoir, you know I was used 0:19:35.160 --> 0:19:37.720 to getting that adoration, you know that that was had 0:19:37.760 --> 0:19:40.919 been reserved for me and not this drunken sot sitting 0:19:40.960 --> 0:19:44.040 next to me. Uh So that had to hurt. But 0:19:44.160 --> 0:19:46.280 you know, I mean I think, I mean it sounds 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:49.960 obvious to state now, but his writing, he was a 0:19:49.960 --> 0:19:52.479 writer than a Joan I don't think really was. And 0:19:52.520 --> 0:19:56.040 there was a great American Masters Um documentary PBS did 0:19:56.040 --> 0:19:58.399 probably about ten years ago, and Steve Earles interviewed and 0:19:58.440 --> 0:20:00.560 he said, you know, folk music became more important when 0:20:00.600 --> 0:20:02.960 Dylan songs were written. They set the stage that made 0:20:03.000 --> 0:20:05.400