Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,
Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music feuds and
Speaker 1: beefs and long swimmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's and I'm so excited for this one, I
Speaker 1: can't even hide it. We've got Bob Dylan, Joan Bayaz,
Speaker 1: you know, Beauty. It's incredible because, you know, Bob Dylan
Speaker 1: is an artist with many faces. There's the woody worshiping
Speaker 1: protest singer. There's the pill popping mod dandy. There's the
Speaker 1: Nashville troubadour, there's the born again Christian. But we never
Speaker 1: really get to talk about Bob Dylan, the bad boyfriend.
Speaker 1: You know, it remains really tragically under disgust. And I'm
Speaker 1: kind of kidding, but this whole story really does kind
Speaker 1: of humanize them in a way that I think it's
Speaker 1: really rare, and you know, especially because Lord knows, Joan
Speaker 1: won't stand for, you know, any deifying which you know,
Speaker 1: God bless her. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be upfront in
Speaker 1: this episode. Um, Bob Dylan is my favorite artist of
Speaker 1: any kind. He's my favorite musician, my favorite writer, my
Speaker 1: favorite persona or I guess set of personas he's my
Speaker 1: favorite everything. But I'll admit that whenever I watch a
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan documentary or read a Bob Dylan book, and
Speaker 1: trust me, I've like watched many documentaries about this man
Speaker 1: and read many books, I'm always excited to hear from
Speaker 1: Joan Baias because she knew him in a way that
Speaker 1: I feel like most people don't know him. Not that
Speaker 1: she understands him exactly. I mean, she's set up front
Speaker 1: that she doesn't understand him, and I don't think anyone
Speaker 1: really understands Bob Dylan, but she's witnessed the less mythic
Speaker 1: version of Bob Dylan, shall we say. I mean she
Speaker 1: was there at a pivotal point in his career early on,
Speaker 1: she played a major role in making him a star,
Speaker 1: and she observed the changes in him as he became
Speaker 1: this iconic figure in the mid nineties sixties. And it's
Speaker 1: true that she has some like pretty withering things to
Speaker 1: say about him, and like we're gonna go through that
Speaker 1: in this episode, but I feel like there's also genuine
Speaker 1: admireation and even affection that she still has for Dylan,
Speaker 1: and I feel like the reverse is true as well.
Speaker 1: I think Dylan still has a place in his heart
Speaker 1: for Joan Bias, and you mentioned the crappy boyfriend thing earlier.
Speaker 1: I feel like he's like expressed remorse for that, although
Speaker 1: maybe not as much as he should have. Right it
Speaker 1: took him, i'd say, about a good half a century,
Speaker 1: which you know, I don't know what the statute of
Speaker 1: limitations is on apologizing and being a bad boyfriend, but
Speaker 1: that's pushing it. You mentioned understanding Dylan, which I think
Speaker 1: is such an interesting choice of words, because you know,
Speaker 1: any other artist where I own like more than two
Speaker 1: thirds of their discography on multiple formats, read half a
Speaker 1: dozen books on their lives, watched hours of documentary, I
Speaker 1: would consider myself a pretty major fan. But for Bob Dylan,
Speaker 1: that's just like entry level dylanology. That's just like syllinology,
Speaker 1: the syllabus for like dyllannology, one on one. And it's
Speaker 1: just so interesting is the intensity of his fan base
Speaker 1: is just so total. I mean, obviously that speaks to
Speaker 1: the depth and quality of his work, but it almost
Speaker 1: makes me fearful discussing him because there's just so many
Speaker 1: interpretations not only his lyrics, but even just like his
Speaker 1: inner views, like what did he mean when he when
Speaker 1: he said that? So I don't know. He's such a
Speaker 1: fascinating figure, and I feel like, uh. Joan, on the
Speaker 1: other hand, just doesn't sugarcoat it, doesn't code it in
Speaker 1: any kind of imagery whatsoever. She's so much more direct,
Speaker 1: So I almost feel like in this story it kind
Speaker 1: of tends to skew more her way because she actually
Speaker 1: lays it all out there, whereas Bob has been much
Speaker 1: more opaque over the years. But even if it is
Speaker 1: skewing her way, I feel like she's been again pretty
Speaker 1: even handled in like the documentaries I've seen, and you know,
Speaker 1: again like she'll make it clear when he was a jerk.
Speaker 1: But then she also is very sure to say that
Speaker 1: she thinks he's a genius and that she's very moved
Speaker 1: by what he's done. I remember one documentary she said,
Speaker 1: you know, no matter what Bob Dylan does, always forgiven
Speaker 1: as soon as he starts singing, which I think is
Speaker 1: an incredible thing. I think what draws me to the
Speaker 1: story is that it reminds me in a way of
Speaker 1: like a star is born, you know, that classic show
Speaker 1: biz love story, except the genders are reversed and no
Speaker 1: one died fully Thankfully. It also reminds me a little
Speaker 1: of a previous Rivals episode that we did, our first one,
Speaker 1: which was on Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. Although I
Speaker 1: wonder if in this scenario, if Bob Dylan is Stevie Nicks,
Speaker 1: I can see that I'm gonna vote that Joan is
Speaker 1: more Stevie, not only because I find it to be
Speaker 1: the more sympathetic character in this and I find Stevie
Speaker 1: to be the more sympathetic character in Fleetwood Mac, but
Speaker 1: also I think about how Stevie supported Lindsay back when
Speaker 1: they were first making music together. She was taking waitressing
Speaker 1: jobs and made jobs and stuff while he stayed at
Speaker 1: home and wrote I feel like Joan kind of played
Speaker 1: a similar role to Bob, kind of giving him that
Speaker 1: platform to be the most Bob that he could be,
Speaker 1: and to really kind of he could sort of follow
Speaker 1: in her wake, so to speak. And and uh, I
Speaker 1: mean because she literally gave him an audience. I guess
Speaker 1: I feel like Bob might be the Stevie because she
Speaker 1: he ended up being the bigger star and Lindsay was
Speaker 1: the stronger one at the beginning artistically, and then Stevie
Speaker 1: surpassed him. But maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves. We
Speaker 1: should get into the background of this story first before
Speaker 1: we start Perry Pop Dolan to Stevie Nicks. Perhaps, so
Speaker 1: without further ado, let's get into this mess. So Joan
Speaker 1: came on the scene first. Her father had taken a
Speaker 1: faculty position at m I T. So Joan gotter start
Speaker 1: singing coffee shops and small clubs around Cambridge in a
Speaker 1: late fifties and she was still just a teenager. Was
Speaker 1: crazy how young she was. And she met a guy
Speaker 1: named Bob Gibson who was a big key figure in
Speaker 1: the folk music scene at the time. And you know
Speaker 1: the folk song All My Trials, kind of like an
Speaker 1: anthem at like early sixties protest marches and stuff. He
Speaker 1: was the guy who popularized that great beautiful song. Uh.
Speaker 1: In many black and white documentries you'll hear that song. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's like in the way that um fortunate Son would
Speaker 1: be like late sixties All My Trials is like the
Speaker 1: early sixties standard stock, like early sixties documentary go to song.
Speaker 1: So Bob Gibson, Big Deal invites Joan to sing at
Speaker 1: the Newport Folk Festival in nineteen fifty nine, the annual
Speaker 1: Folk Summit for for you know, Pete Seeger in the
Speaker 1: whole the whole Gang, and that's really what launched her career.
Speaker 1: And they sang two duets. They sang Virgin Mary had
Speaker 1: One Son and we were crossing the River Jordan or
Speaker 1: the Jordan River, and the response was absolutely overwhelming. It
Speaker 1: basically led to her getting her first record contract. In
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty, when she was nineteen years old, she released
Speaker 1: her self titled debut and it became this really unlikely hit.
Speaker 1: It was just a bunch of traditional folk ballads and
Speaker 1: it made the Top twenty, and she very quickly became
Speaker 1: probably the most recognizable mainstream figure of the folk revival
Speaker 1: this side of like the Kingston Trio. She notched a
Speaker 1: couple of gold albums in the early sixties. She's on
Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine, was on TV all the time.
Speaker 1: And I think it was a mix of incredible talent.
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, her her piercing soprano, incredible intricate
Speaker 1: guitar work that I think Bob Dylan later said that
Speaker 1: she could play rings around him. So there was definitely that,
Speaker 1: and you know, I hate to say this, and I
Speaker 1: say this with all due respect to her musicality. Her
Speaker 1: looks in her image played a huge role. It's the
Speaker 1: early sixties. This is the time when JF A h
Speaker 1: A lot of people think that the election that year
Speaker 1: went in his favor because of the televised debates with
Speaker 1: Richard Nixon. Media is becoming a lot more immediate, and
Speaker 1: she has a look that plays really well. Yeah, I'm
Speaker 1: gonna be a little more frank and say that Joan
Speaker 1: Bayaz is a beautiful woman, Okay. And she sounded great,
Speaker 1: She looked amazing, She looked like a pop star while
Speaker 1: also having the credibility of like you said, she was
Speaker 1: a great guitar player, she could sing beautifully, and she
Speaker 1: was whipped smart and had a real political consciousness. So yeah,
Speaker 1: it was like the complete package with Joe Baida. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: the color of the barefoot madonna in the press, which
Speaker 1: I always thought was a great, great name. But but
Speaker 1: you're right, she's not only talented and beautiful, absolutely brilliant.
Speaker 1: And it's a showcase in her political activism. She goes
Speaker 1: down to Mississippi to help integrate schools. So many examples
Speaker 1: of her just in public taking these great moral stands,
Speaker 1: and she really kind of becomes like sort of the
Speaker 1: social conscious of the folk scene, and many of her
Speaker 1: songs are embraced by all the protest movements of the time. Uh.
Speaker 1: She influenced the whole generation of rising singers Judy Collins,
Speaker 1: Emmy Lou Harris, Joni Mitchell, Bonnie Rate all ciders and inspiration,
Speaker 1: as does a young Robert Zimmerman who's watching her on
Speaker 1: TV in Minnesota. UH. In his two thousand four autobiography Chronicles,
Speaker 1: he talks about seeing her on TV for the first time.
Speaker 1: He wrote, I couldn't stop looking at her and didn't
Speaker 1: want to blink. The sight of her made me sigh
Speaker 1: all that, and then there was the voice, a voice
Speaker 1: that drove out bad spirits. She's sang in a voice
Speaker 1: straight to God. Nothing she did didn't work. Beautiful thing
Speaker 1: to say about someone. Yeah, he's very effusive. Although there's
Speaker 1: another quote that he had, um I think it's in
Speaker 1: the Direction Home documentary where he said he saw her
Speaker 1: on TV and he said, oh, I think she needs
Speaker 1: a singing partner. So yeah, definitely very Dylanesque type balance
Speaker 1: there of like genuine reverence and he was also having
Speaker 1: some bravado there. In the documentary, Joan and Bob end
Speaker 1: up meeting in and this is I think a little
Speaker 1: bit after Bob had arrived in New York. He rives
Speaker 1: in January sixty one, and her reaction to him, I
Speaker 1: think is similar to like how a lot of people
Speaker 1: reacted when they first saw Bob Dylan, that he was
Speaker 1: this sort of dirty street urchin looking character and he
Speaker 1: had a lot of like baby fat on his face.
Speaker 1: There wasn't really anything exceptional about him really, like when
Speaker 1: you first looked at him. Um. But of course, Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan ends up going through an incredible artistic and personal
Speaker 1: evolution during this time that even now it's hard to comprehend,
Speaker 1: like how quickly he became Bob Dylan, the guy that
Speaker 1: was going to be writing these incredible songs that uh,
Speaker 1: we still love today. With Jone, it seems like because
Speaker 1: she wrote in her memoir about again like not being
Speaker 1: terribly impressed by him. But on the other hand, she
Speaker 1: did have enough foresight to recognize the quality of one
Speaker 1: of his earliest songs, which is Sung to Woody, which
Speaker 1: is I think the only song that he wrote for
Speaker 1: his first record. Otherwise that first record is like all
Speaker 1: rs and the types of covers that, like other folk
Speaker 1: singers in New York we're playing at that time. Of course,
Speaker 1: his second record, which comes out in sixty two, Free
Speaker 1: Will and Bob Dylan is the one that has Masses
Speaker 1: of War and Heart Reign is Gonna Fall and Blown
Speaker 1: in the Wind and Girl from the North Country. And
Speaker 1: he's already becoming Bob Dylan at that point. But Joan
Speaker 1: meets Bob, isn't terribly impressed, but wants to play one
Speaker 1: of his songs. Bob, of course meets Joan, he's already
Speaker 1: seen her on TV. I imagine him having like the
Speaker 1: wildly coyote eyes, you know, that like bug out of
Speaker 1: his skull, you know, because not only is this a
Speaker 1: celebrity essentially, but she's again, like as we said, she's
Speaker 1: this beautiful, charismatic woman. And it seems like the attraction
Speaker 1: soon became mutual. And I wondered to what degree Joan
Speaker 1: was just sort of drawn in by the exploding talent
Speaker 1: that Bob Dylan was starting to display at this time,
Speaker 1: But at any rate, she ended up inviting him to
Speaker 1: her family's home in northern California, and she really starts
Speaker 1: taking him under her wing. Like you know, he didn't
Speaker 1: have a lot of money at this time, but she
Speaker 1: provided a space for him where he could start writing
Speaker 1: these songs. And it's interesting because I think about there
Speaker 1: was that Martin Scorsese documentary that came out in the
Speaker 1: Rolling Thunder review, and there's a famous scene in that
Speaker 1: movie that we're gonna talk about later in this episode.
Speaker 1: But in that scene, Bob Dylan makes reference to being
Speaker 1: at this house near the Pacific Ocean and writing songs
Speaker 1: very quickly, and I assume that that's a reference to
Speaker 1: this time, you know, like when they were first kind
Speaker 1: of getting together and again having this dynamic of him
Speaker 1: being this unusual guy with a squeaky voice and her
Speaker 1: being this big star that is gonna like show him
Speaker 1: to the world. I mean, it seems like what they
Speaker 1: were at the beginning, absolutely. I mean, she would invite
Speaker 1: him to perform with her on many cases, most famously
Speaker 1: at the New Fork Folk Festival in uh in sixty three.
Speaker 1: She was kind of repaying the favor from Bob Gibson,
Speaker 1: and that is sort of like similar for her the
Speaker 1: moment that he really just goes stratospheric. I mean, you
Speaker 1: couldn't craft a moment that is more perfect for his
Speaker 1: sort of ascension. You know, he where he's sort of
Speaker 1: part of the continuum of wood. He got three to
Speaker 1: Pete Seeger to Bob Dylan's He closes I think the
Speaker 1: first night of the festival with everybody's joined on stage
Speaker 1: by Joan, Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary and the
Speaker 1: s NCCS Freedom Singers, and they all join hands and
Speaker 1: sing blown in the Wind and we Shall Overcome. It's
Speaker 1: a beautiful moment. And that really is kind of when
Speaker 1: he arrives um and Joan is still bringing him out
Speaker 1: on her tours and there are people booing him, and she,
Speaker 1: I think she wrote in her memoir she had to
Speaker 1: get all schoolmarm and kind of wag her finger at
Speaker 1: them and say, no, look, I know this guy sounds
Speaker 1: a little weird. I know you're sort of used to
Speaker 1: my pitch perfect voice and he sounds like Bob Dylan.
Speaker 1: But listen to the words. This guy is a genius.
Speaker 1: Oh it's so good. I mean. And she tells this
Speaker 1: great story too, when she's trying to get him a
Speaker 1: hotel room, and I guess he's turned away because he's
Speaker 1: still like in Full Wood, he gut three attire with
Speaker 1: like you know, rope for suspenders and stuff like that.
Speaker 1: He looks like he just came off the back of
Speaker 1: a box car and they wouldn't give him a room
Speaker 1: and she had to pull her you know, do you
Speaker 1: know who I am? Card? Basically and uh and and
Speaker 1: she goes over to him later and he'd written when
Speaker 1: the Ship Comes In based on this whole exchange. But
Speaker 1: she always thought was such a true mark of his
Speaker 1: talent of just of feeling just so rejected and responding
Speaker 1: with this absolutely incredible song. Yeah. You know, like when
Speaker 1: you were talking about that Newport moment, it just made
Speaker 1: me think of, like, that's the moment if we're going
Speaker 1: to compare this to a Star is Born, because I'm
Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna be bringing the Stars Born analogy into
Speaker 1: this episode in the scenario, like Joan Baiaz is essentially
Speaker 1: like the Jackson Maine figure bringing in Bob Dylan, who
Speaker 1: is the Lady Gaga if you will, and they're gonna
Speaker 1: say shallow together and this is the moment that it
Speaker 1: turns Bob Dylan slash Lady Gaga into a star. Is
Speaker 1: that a fair submission? Of like what the scenario is.
Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely a fair as summation. I think
Speaker 1: also there's the added element of Joan being sort of
Speaker 1: the honey for Bob's songs. I mean a lot of
Speaker 1: people at that time, in the early years of Bob's
Speaker 1: career aren't listening to him because they're so turned off
Speaker 1: by his voice. But Joan sings his songs for him,
Speaker 1: and kind of it's what's able to put his songs
Speaker 1: across to a mass medium early in the career when
Speaker 1: they're not really used to. So she's providing the honey.
Speaker 1: But she's also pushing Dylan in a more political direction.
Speaker 1: Of course, he's already writing these great anthems that people
Speaker 1: will be singing at marches for the next fifty plus years. Again,
Speaker 1: Blown in the Wind Times, they are changing masters of war,
Speaker 1: with God on our side, all these wonderful songs. But
Speaker 1: it seems like one of the first cracks in their
Speaker 1: relationship is that Joan wants to go even farther in
Speaker 1: that direction at the moment where Bob wants to pull
Speaker 1: back right right. I mean, she's like literally on the
Speaker 1: front lines down in Mississippi. I mean, Bob goes down
Speaker 1: there too, and he sings only upon in their game
Speaker 1: and when the ship comes in later that fall to
Speaker 1: vote voter registration and rally. But he really is trying
Speaker 1: to back off. He doesn't want to be the guy.
Speaker 1: He doesn't want that responsibility. And she later expressed remorse
Speaker 1: for trying to push him further and further into sort
Speaker 1: of engaging in acts of civil disobedience. And I think
Speaker 1: Joan got arrested untold number of times in the sixties
Speaker 1: for being at them on the front lines of when
Speaker 1: the troops were being shipped off to Paris Island in
Speaker 1: different uh, different places where boot camps and things like that.
Speaker 1: He didn't want to do that. He really didn't want
Speaker 1: to be that guy. And she was expressed remorse in
Speaker 1: later years for not recognizing that his acts were the
Speaker 1: songs that was his gift to the movement, not being
Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, and this is gonna be me
Speaker 1: psychoanalyzing Bob and Joan here. I wonder if on some
Speaker 1: level Bob Dylan started to look at Joan Bias as
Speaker 1: like a symbol of like what he was starting to
Speaker 1: resent about the folk world, you know, the strident politics,
Speaker 1: the musical conservatism, like the rigidity of that scene. It's
Speaker 1: you know, obviously we all know that Dylan goes electric
Speaker 1: story and him writing songs like Positively Fourth Street where
Speaker 1: he is really lashing out at those people. And I
Speaker 1: just wonder if he came to look at Joan Bayaz,
Speaker 1: who again was this beautiful symbol of that music scene
Speaker 1: really was like the figurehead in a lot of ways,
Speaker 1: at least like in the pop music end of folk music.
Speaker 1: I just wonder if maybe that fueled how he came
Speaker 1: to look at her and how he starts to treat
Speaker 1: her as their relationship starts to crumble a little bit
Speaker 1: um like I think about. I don't know if you
Speaker 1: remember this scene in No Direction Home, there's a there's
Speaker 1: an interview clip where Joan Bayaz is talking about how
Speaker 1: at one point Bob Dylan said to her, hey, let's
Speaker 1: go headline Carnegie Hall or or some other big music venue,
Speaker 1: and Joan Baias says, well, what are you gonna do
Speaker 1: with it? You know? The implication being that if we're
Speaker 1: going to become big stars, that it ought to be
Speaker 1: to further some sort of politic the end, and it's
Speaker 1: clear that like Bob Dylan like by nineteen sixty four
Speaker 1: was not thinking in those terms in his career or
Speaker 1: in his art, Like he's looking at the beats. He's
Speaker 1: looking at like the French modernist writers, and he doesn't
Speaker 1: want to be hemmed in. He doesn't want to be
Speaker 1: a politician. He wants to be an artist, and it
Speaker 1: seems like that really becomes something that is beginning to
Speaker 1: drive them apart. Yeah. Absolutely. You can see that on
Speaker 1: his next release, Another Side of Bob Dylan in August
Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, and it's really a political and the
Speaker 1: reaction from folk purists were it was sort of like
Speaker 1: a mini Dylon goes Electric moment, and they thought he
Speaker 1: was abandoning the cause and wasn't living up to his responsibilities.
Speaker 1: That was I think the underlying things that he has
Speaker 1: responsibilities and Bob didn't want them. And you know, I
Speaker 1: always think of that scene in the Life of Brian
Speaker 1: with the you know, the the Judean People's Front. Have
Speaker 1: you ever seen the Monty Python movie when it's just
Speaker 1: all these little cliques that all hate each other and
Speaker 1: then just the infighting and everything. I always got the
Speaker 1: impression that he sort of viewed the the prous movement
Speaker 1: by like late sixty four, like that as sort of
Speaker 1: this seconcestuous group that really that was forced him to
Speaker 1: be something he didn't want to be. I think the
Speaker 1: other thing that's starting to happen to around this time
Speaker 1: and again this is bringing back the stars born analogy
Speaker 1: here where Bob Dylan is Lady Gaga. I just want
Speaker 1: to put that thought into the minds of listeners Bob
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and the star is born, where he is
Speaker 1: becoming a bigger star, and not only a bigger star,
Speaker 1: but like a hipper star, Like he's moving into a
Speaker 1: realm of music, where like he is the point person
Speaker 1: for the culture. Like the Beatles are looking to Bob Dylan,
Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones are looking to Bob Dylan, like whatever
Speaker 1: this guy is doing, we want to follow him. And
Speaker 1: Joan Baya is as great as she is at being
Speaker 1: that barefoot Madonna figure, you know that that archetypical sixties
Speaker 1: folk singer, It really starts to become really like a
Speaker 1: pass a idea, like that kind of folk music is
Speaker 1: not going to be very cool as we move into
Speaker 1: the mid sixties. And I feel like that tension, that
Speaker 1: career tension, was also something that was really starting to
Speaker 1: hurt the relationship. Yeah, there was a great story where
Speaker 1: they were having dinner, Bob and Joan up in uh
Speaker 1: in Woodstock, and there was a woman across the restaurant
Speaker 1: just sort of making eyes at him all night and
Speaker 1: and Bob meanwhile, was just pounding the veno. And by
Speaker 1: the end of the night, this woman comes over and
Speaker 1: basically just throws herself at him. And Joan is furious
Speaker 1: for two reasons. I mean, one, you know, another woman
Speaker 1: is now in her man's lap. And also she she wrote,
Speaker 1: I think in her memoir, you know I was used
Speaker 1: to getting that adoration, you know that that was had
Speaker 1: been reserved for me and not this drunken sot sitting
Speaker 1: next to me. Uh So that had to hurt. But
Speaker 1: you know, I mean I think, I mean it sounds
Speaker 1: obvious to state now, but his writing, he was a
Speaker 1: writer than a Joan I don't think really was. And
Speaker 1: there was a great American Masters Um documentary PBS did
Speaker 1: probably about ten years ago, and Steve Earles interviewed and
Speaker 1: he said, you know, folk music became more important when
Speaker 1: Dylan songs were written. They set the stage that made
Speaker 1: rock and roll literature and therefore made rock and roll
Speaker 1: on art form. You know, if you're gonna progress the
Speaker 1: art form of folk music, Joan at that point was
Speaker 1: really doing, you know, eighty year old songs, hadn't year
Speaker 1: old songs, and and wasn't moving it forward, and and
Speaker 1: Bob wasn't She She definitely knew that. I mean it
Speaker 1: was she her admiration for his songwriting has been so
Speaker 1: total through the years. But yeah, it had to be
Speaker 1: painful for her as a fellow artist, and also he
Speaker 1: wasn't being very nice about it. In in the spring
Speaker 1: of nine five they did a co headlining tour and
Speaker 1: it was very right down the middle. There's that beautiful
Speaker 1: poster that looks like some kind of turn of the
Speaker 1: century French impression is painting of the two of them.
Speaker 1: I think Jon's name is first, but Bob's head is
Speaker 1: a little higher. They went and really really made sure
Speaker 1: to have it be fifty fifty. But he that was
Speaker 1: really I think when the relationship started to disintegrate. He
Speaker 1: was very hard to just do songs with because, as
Speaker 1: you know, people who go see his endless tour, now, no,
Speaker 1: he doesn't do a song the same way night after night.
Speaker 1: And so she was trying to duet with him, and
Speaker 1: he would just put in a different time signature just
Speaker 1: to mess her up and specifically to mess her up.
Speaker 1: But that's just what he felt like doing that night.
Speaker 1: And if you've got to play a song with somebody
Speaker 1: that's in a waltz, and then the next night you
Speaker 1: do it in two four, that's difficult. And she would
Speaker 1: later say, you know, he's very unique. It's it's admirable
Speaker 1: to want to change it up every night, but it's
Speaker 1: a pain in the ass when you're working with him
Speaker 1: and expecting something from him. And again, it gets back
Speaker 1: to that notion of expecting something from Bob, and Bob
Speaker 1: hates when there are expectations made of him, so he
Speaker 1: was hard to actually perform with. And then also they
Speaker 1: had a huge blow up fight. I guess his favorite
Speaker 1: jacket got stolen and he unleashed all this rage, probably
Speaker 1: pill related rage at the security guard, and Jon was
Speaker 1: just like, what are you doing. Don't talk. You can't
Speaker 1: talk to people like that. That's awful, And then of
Speaker 1: course he completely rounded on her. They go out on
Speaker 1: stage and have an amazing concert. You know, they walk
Speaker 1: off stage together applauses dying down she turns him and says, Wow,
Speaker 1: you should get Piste off more often before show that
Speaker 1: was and then she completely rounded on her again. And
Speaker 1: I think that's probably around when they begin the emotionally
Speaker 1: distance themselves, which sets the stage four. Yeah, well, because
Speaker 1: you're talking about the Spring tour. But I think when
Speaker 1: people think about sixty five and Bob Dylan and Joan
Speaker 1: baia As, they're thinking about the tour that came after that,
Speaker 1: which was in England and the tour that is documented
Speaker 1: in the legendary documentary Don't Look Back. And when we
Speaker 1: think about Bob Dylan and Joan Baias in that movie,
Speaker 1: we essentially think about Bob Dylan being it looks like
Speaker 1: either really stoned on weed or like just like wired
Speaker 1: to the gills on pills. Why can't it be both.
Speaker 1: You smoke the weed to come down from the pills
Speaker 1: and then you take the pills to get up from
Speaker 1: the weed. And it seems like that was definitely, uh
Speaker 1: the system that Bob Dylan was on at that time.
Speaker 1: And look, like I said, I am a Bob Dylan fanboy,
Speaker 1: I'm not going to make excuses for like how he
Speaker 1: treats Joan Baias and don't look back, because he is
Speaker 1: like pretty cruel to her, and it looks like she's
Speaker 1: like having as rubal time the entire tour, and you
Speaker 1: just are just like, why don't you just leave the tour,
Speaker 1: which is something that she has said in subsequent years
Speaker 1: that she should have just left. But she was there,
Speaker 1: I think out of a combination of like feeling lovesick
Speaker 1: for Bob and also having this wounded ego of knowing
Speaker 1: that she was in the process of being usurped by
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, you know, this person that had once been
Speaker 1: her opening act essentially, but I think with Bob Dylan
Speaker 1: at this time, and again this isn't an excuse, but
Speaker 1: I think it is worth noting that he was about
Speaker 1: four years old. He was in the process of becoming
Speaker 1: the Bob Dylan, which entailed a level of adulation that
Speaker 1: I guess you could compare it to the Beatles. I
Speaker 1: think that's the only person that you could compare it to.
Speaker 1: Even though the Beatles were much more commercially successful than
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, they didn't have the level of importance spread
Speaker 1: spread on the floor. And also they didn't, at least
Speaker 1: at that time, they weren't looked at with the same
Speaker 1: kind of reverence that Bob Dylan was like, because Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan wasn't just a pop star, he was like the
Speaker 1: voice of a generation. Like that archetype in rock music
Speaker 1: was affixed to Bob Dylan. I don't know if it
Speaker 1: was first, but to me, he's like the most obvious
Speaker 1: example of that archetype. Yeah, he was at the March
Speaker 1: on Washington, you know. I mean he is there alongside
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King. I mean you view him in a
Speaker 1: certain way, especially in the early six he's at the March.
Speaker 1: He's also writing like the greatest songs ever, you know,
Speaker 1: and he's moving the art form forward in a way.
Speaker 1: Going back to what Steve Ril said in that documentary,
Speaker 1: that people looked at him as like transforming something that
Speaker 1: had existed in one form and now he's elevating it
Speaker 1: to something else. And that is the kind of reference
Speaker 1: that Bob Dylan is having foisted upon him. In again,
Speaker 1: not excusing him for being a bad boyfriend, but I
Speaker 1: feel like those types of circumstances would probably affect anyone's
Speaker 1: mood or anyone's relationships with other people. It must have
Speaker 1: been in credibly difficult and and it's all there on film,
Speaker 1: seeing how he's basically being twisted into this very sort
Speaker 1: of like mean spirited, gamesmanship driven. He's sort of like
Speaker 1: the prince of the Kingdom, you know, like he knows
Speaker 1: that anyone will do anything that he wants, and you
Speaker 1: can see it going to his head. But you also
Speaker 1: see him being a brilliant artist at the same time.
Speaker 1: And Joan is basically caught up in this like like
Speaker 1: it's a meat grinder, and and you feel terrible for
Speaker 1: her as this is going on, because not only is
Speaker 1: you know, she's showing up at these concerts and expecting
Speaker 1: to be invited to go on stage because she wasn't
Speaker 1: actually performing on this to her, right, I mean, she
Speaker 1: was just there to hang out with Bob, and I
Speaker 1: think her feeling was that, well, she'll like, he'll invite
Speaker 1: me up there to sing, but he never really did,
Speaker 1: so she's just sort of hanging out there for no
Speaker 1: reason ultimately, right, I mean, I think she laiced up.
Speaker 1: She had her own sold out show at the Royal
Speaker 1: Albert Hall while she was over there, but it meant
Speaker 1: nothing to her. She was just so demoralized by you know,
Speaker 1: her her her lover first of all. And also this
Speaker 1: person that she respects so much artistically just wasn't paying
Speaker 1: her any mind at all. And there's that great scene
Speaker 1: and don't look back where she's tinkering with love is
Speaker 1: just a four letter word that that Bob has just
Speaker 1: written and I don't think he even finished yet, and
Speaker 1: she's playing it to him and doing a beautiful version
Speaker 1: of it, which is such a you know, the nicest
Speaker 1: thing one artist can do for another is to play
Speaker 1: their song. And he's just like looking daggers at her.
Speaker 1: He's like disgusted by it and he just rolls his eyes.
Speaker 1: I don't think that's necessarily true. See again, I am,
Speaker 1: I think more empathetic to Dylan maybe than you are
Speaker 1: in the situation, because when I look at that scene,
Speaker 1: I see a guy who is at his typewriter writing
Speaker 1: and I don't know what he was writing. He was
Speaker 1: probably writing like an amazing song because it's Bob Dylan
Speaker 1: in nine and he is in the process of like
Speaker 1: basically channeling an incredible amount of music, you know at
Speaker 1: this time, Like again, this is Bob Dylan in X five,
Speaker 1: Like there's really no one else you compare him to
Speaker 1: the songwriting output that he was going through at this
Speaker 1: period in his career, and he's trying to type, and
Speaker 1: there's this woman there that he maybe doesn't want to
Speaker 1: be there, but he can't tell her that he doesn't
Speaker 1: want her to be there. And I don't know it.
Speaker 1: I'm not excusing again the behavior, but I understand his
Speaker 1: perspective of like I am trying to move forward and
Speaker 1: maybe this person belongs in my past and not in
Speaker 1: my present. You know. To me, that's the tension of
Speaker 1: that scene. And I don't necessarily feel like he's looking
Speaker 1: daggers at her. I feel he's more like maybe conflicted
Speaker 1: where he wants her to go, but he can't tell
Speaker 1: her to go. You know, there's a part of him
Speaker 1: that can't allow him to do that. There's something he
Speaker 1: says later in UM. I think it's a no direction home,
Speaker 1: and it reminds me of a lyric that he would
Speaker 1: have written for, like Blood on the Tracks or something.
Speaker 1: He says like it's hard to be wise and in
Speaker 1: love at the same time. And I actually think that's
Speaker 1: a pretty apt description of that UM. Even if you
Speaker 1: watch it as an outsider and you feel like, oh,
Speaker 1: poor Joan Bias, because that's my feeling when I watch it. Um,
Speaker 1: but I also feel like maybe he was pursuing something
Speaker 1: greater and bigger and he didn't have time for that.
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. Am I being too kind
Speaker 1: to Bob Dylan? No? I mean I think in that scene,
Speaker 1: I completely see what you're saying. I feel as though
Speaker 1: because we haven't mentioned Sarah, his future wife, Sarah, who
Speaker 1: he also brought on the tour, which is, you know,
Speaker 1: if if you're gonna bring two girlfriends on one tour,
Speaker 1: that's a bold move. I feel like uh and and
Speaker 1: Joan they did a really good job of trying to
Speaker 1: keep Joan away from Sarah until Joan bought Bob a present.
Speaker 1: I think he bought him a blue shirt and went
Speaker 1: to his hotel room to to try to give it
Speaker 1: to him, and Sarah answered the door and sort of
Speaker 1: quizzically was like, well, I took the gift for Joan. Uh.
Speaker 1: Joan didn't know she existed, and I think that was
Speaker 1: the moment that she kind of knew that that things
Speaker 1: were over. There was another woman in his life in
Speaker 1: a major way. All right, Hey, we'll be right back
Speaker 1: with more rivals. So what's interesting to me is to
Speaker 1: look at this period of Bob Dylan songwriting, because again,
Speaker 1: he was very prolific at this time. And you know,
Speaker 1: I think even casual Bob Dylan fans could name like
Speaker 1: a dozen classic songs like from the mid sixties that
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan wrote. But I know, like you and I
Speaker 1: were trying to figure out, like what songs did Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan write about Joan Bias because I feel like there's
Speaker 1: like a lot of conversation, you know, speculating on what
Speaker 1: songs are about her or what songs are about Sarah.
Speaker 1: And of course Bob Dylan is never all that helpful
Speaker 1: like in these situations. He's never just like, yeah, that's
Speaker 1: about Joan And you know that's my Bob Dylan impression
Speaker 1: that you know, it's pretty it's pretty stock, you know,
Speaker 1: it's pretty rich little but you know, what can I say?
Speaker 1: But like, what, like what are the songs that people
Speaker 1: have like focused it on the most as maybe being
Speaker 1: about Joan Bias? Well, the one I always really thought
Speaker 1: was at least a line and just like a woman
Speaker 1: when we meet again, introduced those friends. Please don't let
Speaker 1: on that you knew me when I was hungry and
Speaker 1: it was your world, because I just thought that really
Speaker 1: obviously references, you know when when he came on the
Speaker 1: scene and Joan was the queen of folk, you know,
Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine and everything, and he was
Speaker 1: this hungry, scruffy little street urchin kind of guy. Uh.
Speaker 1: I was thought that song was eaty sedgwick. Uh. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean there are the references to amphetamines and pearls
Speaker 1: and stuff, so that and that's very eaty. So you're right,
Speaker 1: But that's it's interesting. I never thought of that line,
Speaker 1: but that does make sense that that could be a
Speaker 1: Joan bias not and uh and this is way in
Speaker 1: the weeds, but and she belongs to me. Uh. He
Speaker 1: paints his picture of a powerful, independent creative artist that
Speaker 1: he apparently gave Joan a Egyptian ring once, and there's
Speaker 1: the line she wears an Egyptian ring sparkles before she sleeps,
Speaker 1: and which again that's a little too that's some that's
Speaker 1: some fans fiction right there, maybe. But I that that
Speaker 1: was always very fascinating to me. And I always like
Speaker 1: the line she never stumbles, she's got no place to fall,
Speaker 1: and I always thought how that might sort of point
Speaker 1: to Joan being this sort of icon of the politically
Speaker 1: minded folk movement and she could never break from that
Speaker 1: role without sort of losing face and losing her audience. Uh,
Speaker 1: which I don't know that again, that might just be
Speaker 1: me projecting a little too much there, but I thought
Speaker 1: that was an interesting line that could also be like
Speaker 1: a dig to oh totally you know that, yeah, that
Speaker 1: she's like too pious to like ever you know, fall
Speaker 1: from her perch of righteousness. I think of the song
Speaker 1: Visions of Johanna being a Joan Bias song. I feel
Speaker 1: like Joan Bias herself has talked about how she feels
Speaker 1: like that songs about her, And you know, it's interesting
Speaker 1: in light of what we were just saying about that
Speaker 1: tour of England and sixty five where you had this
Speaker 1: weird love triangle going on between Bob, Sarah and Joan,
Speaker 1: Because if you want to say that Visions of Johanna
Speaker 1: is about Joan Bias, there is a love triangle in
Speaker 1: that song, and essentially the ideas the protagonist of that
Speaker 1: song is with one Himan, but he keeps thinking about
Speaker 1: another woman. And you know, you can look at that literally,
Speaker 1: if you want to say us about Joan Bias is
Speaker 1: that about Bob Dylan saying that he still pines for
Speaker 1: Joan Bias, or does Joan want to believe that's true?
Speaker 1: I mean, I tend to take a broader interpretation that
Speaker 1: it's really a song about feeling perpetually dissatisfied, that like
Speaker 1: whenever you get what you want, that it doesn't sort
Speaker 1: of quench the feeling of yearning that you always have
Speaker 1: inside of yourself, which isn't extremely Bob Dylan sentiment. I mean,
Speaker 1: obviously that is sort of the modus operandi of his career,
Speaker 1: you know, like he's always kept moving, he always changes
Speaker 1: his songs. There's never a point where he feels like
Speaker 1: he's nailed it down perfectly, and um, it's what makes
Speaker 1: him such a brilliant artist. I think it may also
Speaker 1: make him an impossible person to have in your life,
Speaker 1: you know, someone who's perpetually dissatisfied. It's interesting to looking
Speaker 1: at what Joan Bias wrote in response to Bob Dylan,
Speaker 1: because I mean, Bias, she's that really a prolific songwriter.
Speaker 1: I think she's known more as an interpreter of other
Speaker 1: people's songs. That's certainly how she got her start in
Speaker 1: her career. But She has written some songs about Bob Dylan,
Speaker 1: like do you know the song to Bobby from seventy two.
Speaker 1: I just love how that really just encapsulates the differences there.
Speaker 1: You've got these incredibly visions of Johanna and then you've
Speaker 1: got to Bobby. There's no no way to misinterpret that whatsoever.
Speaker 1: And I love that song. She didn't say Bob Dylan,
Speaker 1: that's true. It could it could just be any other Bobby,
Speaker 1: you know, but yeah, exactly Bobby, Bob Barker, could be
Speaker 1: could be a song about the prices, right, but yeah,
Speaker 1: it does seem pretty clear that it's about Bob Dylan.
Speaker 1: And this is like kind of her angriest song about
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan because she's basically going at him for his
Speaker 1: lack of political activism. Like the idea of that song,
Speaker 1: she has this line in there she says you left
Speaker 1: this marching on the road and said how heavy was
Speaker 1: the load? The years were young, the struggle barely had
Speaker 1: its start, So the implication being that, like, you bailed
Speaker 1: dude right where we needed you. We had the civil
Speaker 1: rights movement going on in the early sixties, and then
Speaker 1: you just like took off, like by sixty four and Bob,
Speaker 1: I know, like you wrote this in the outline and
Speaker 1: I never really thought about this, but you feel like
Speaker 1: the song wedding Song from Planet Waves is like an
Speaker 1: answer record to to the Bias song. Yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: I always thought, I mean, his songs could be about
Speaker 1: twenty different things all at once. But I always thought
Speaker 1: the line it's never been my duty to remake the
Speaker 1: world at large, nor is it my intention the sound
Speaker 1: of Battle Charge, I always thought that was sort of
Speaker 1: his response to Bobby. It was like, you know, it
Speaker 1: was not that was not what I set out to do.
Speaker 1: That's fine if that's what you wanted to do, great,
Speaker 1: But that wasn't That wasn't who I was. That's not
Speaker 1: why I got into doing what I do. So then
Speaker 1: Joan Baias puts her record Diamonds and Rust nineteen seventy five,
Speaker 1: which is the Joe Baias record I know, the like
Speaker 1: the best because I'm just gonna say that, Like I
Speaker 1: love Joan bayaz As like a figure, I love her
Speaker 1: as an interview subject. I'm not a huge fan of
Speaker 1: from music. Like, I don't know how you feel about
Speaker 1: her music. I feel similarly. I definitely appreciate her more
Speaker 1: as a political figure and as absolutely the most entertaining
Speaker 1: part of any Bob Dylan documentary, uh and the most insightful.
Speaker 1: But this album I like the most because it comes
Speaker 1: from her. I feel like her interpretations of some of
Speaker 1: the older folk songs are in d gorgeous, but you
Speaker 1: know I I do. I'm more fascinated by when it
Speaker 1: comes from inside of her, And so this whole album is.
Speaker 1: And she's later said that this album was really her
Speaker 1: her peak as a writer. In Diamonds and Rust in particularly,
Speaker 1: the song was one of the best she ever wrote.
Speaker 1: And you know, it's really sparked from Bob. Yeah, that song.
Speaker 1: And there's another song called Winds of the Old Days,
Speaker 1: which seems like, you know, a pretty direct song to
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. And both of those songs are much more
Speaker 1: melancholy than to Bobby is it's reflecting on their relationship,
Speaker 1: looking back on it with some affection and as well
Speaker 1: as some regret. And I feel like Diamonds in Rust
Speaker 1: in particular is this song where I think she's trying
Speaker 1: to get the upper hand in a way with her
Speaker 1: in a relationship with Bob Dylan, because essentially, at the
Speaker 1: end of that song, she implies that the man in
Speaker 1: the song, and again, I guess we'll just say that
Speaker 1: there's a protagonist and an antagonist in this song, and
Speaker 1: we won't necessarily say that they're Bob Dylan and Joan Bayaz,
Speaker 1: but they like probably are, They're based on some version
Speaker 1: of who they are. The implication in that song is that, like,
Speaker 1: the man wants to get back together, and Joan is
Speaker 1: the one deciding that it's not going to happen, so
Speaker 1: it turns into this sort of victory for Joan. At
Speaker 1: the end of Diamonds and Rust, is that a fair
Speaker 1: interpretation of that song? She tells the story where she
Speaker 1: was in the middle of writing a song and she
Speaker 1: got a phone call in nine four and I guess
Speaker 1: Bob called her out of the blue from a phone
Speaker 1: booth in the Midwest, which is amazing, and read her
Speaker 1: all the lyrics to a song and he'd just written
Speaker 1: Lily Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts, which I I
Speaker 1: interpret as a very sort of Dylanesque booty call. I suppose,
Speaker 1: I yeah, he's flexing. He's like, I wrote this, I
Speaker 1: wrote this bomb song and you're gonna love it and
Speaker 1: you're gonna want to hook up man, because like I'm
Speaker 1: I'm Bob Dylan, I'm throwing straight heat. At this time,
Speaker 1: his marriage to Sarah was on the rocks, blowing the tracks.
Speaker 1: Was not far on the distance and not far in
Speaker 1: the future. Um So Joan turns back to the song
Speaker 1: that she was writing before he called, and now it's
Speaker 1: become about Bob, and it's this I always took it
Speaker 1: as this really bitter sweet tribute to their love affair, written,
Speaker 1: you know, in her words, a couple of light years afterwards.
Speaker 1: And she's talking about this unwashed phenomenon. I love how
Speaker 1: whenevery she refers to like nine Arab Bob is always
Speaker 1: like unwashed, unclean, sweet urchin street urchin. Just a filth
Speaker 1: just a filthy man, a filthy little man, dwarfed by
Speaker 1: his guitar. Yeah and so, and the best part was
Speaker 1: she she throws in a dig over there about how
Speaker 1: she says that that Bob, or should we say the
Speaker 1: antagonist says that she writes lousy poetry, which I enjoy
Speaker 1: that being in there too, she I, I just it's
Speaker 1: such a gorgeous song. It's one of the best kiss
Speaker 1: off song as I think of all time. You know,
Speaker 1: it's classy, it's witty, and it's ruthless, you know. And
Speaker 1: and Bob, for whatever it's worth, was not shy about
Speaker 1: saying that. You know, I think this is about me
Speaker 1: and uh, oh man to be I think he said
Speaker 1: this direct quote to be included in something Joni had written.
Speaker 1: I mean, to this day, it's still impresses me. It's
Speaker 1: it's a nice If you're gonna be the recipient of
Speaker 1: a song like that, you might as well be gracious
Speaker 1: about it. I and I buy that. I feel like
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, he's uh, you know, he's a player in
Speaker 1: the game, man like game respects game. A good song,
Speaker 1: he's gonna respect it, even if it's about him. And
Speaker 1: if on some level, you know, I don't know if
Speaker 1: that song embarrassed him, or if it hurt him or anything,
Speaker 1: but it didn't seem to, you know, spark any animus
Speaker 1: in him towards Joan at all. One thing I really
Speaker 1: like about Demons and rust Like, even more than the
Speaker 1: tail track, is that Joan Baiaz covers simple twist of
Speaker 1: fate from Blood on the tracks on that record, and
Speaker 1: on one of the verses she slips into like this,
Speaker 1: weird Bob Dylan impression. It's like impression, it's it's like
Speaker 1: the arrangement of that song. It's really weird anyway, because
Speaker 1: you think of the original simple twist of Fate and
Speaker 1: it's this downtrodden romantic acoustic song where Dylan's is porn
Speaker 1: his heart out, and like the Joan Bias version is
Speaker 1: this like upbeat, like very mid seventies l a rock
Speaker 1: like redo, Like it sounds like an Eagle song when
Speaker 1: she does it, and and but then she slips into
Speaker 1: this like kind of perverse Dylan impression in the middle,
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I kind of wish he did the
Speaker 1: whole song like that because it would have like registered
Speaker 1: more as like a dig on him maybe, or like, Yeah,
Speaker 1: you wrote this song about the woman that you left
Speaker 1: me for, and now I'm going to play it on
Speaker 1: my record and kind of make fun of it by
Speaker 1: doing this voice, you know exactly, I'm gonna kind of
Speaker 1: suck the soul out of it. I'm gonna make it
Speaker 1: sound like life in the fast Lane. Uh. But again,
Speaker 1: like it doesn't see my Bob doing't minded that either,
Speaker 1: because he ended up inviting Joan Bias to be on
Speaker 1: the Rolling Thunder tour, which I think it's like my
Speaker 1: favorite Bob Dylan tour, Like I love this era and
Speaker 1: Joan Baiaz was like a huge part of that tour.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my favorite part of this entire tour is
Speaker 1: apparently Bob asked her if are you gonna play that song,
Speaker 1: you know, the song about the blue eyes and diamonds
Speaker 1: obviously diamonds and rust, and she played dumb was like,
Speaker 1: oh yeah, that old thing I wrote for my ex husband. Sure,
Speaker 1: And you can just imagine Bob's face kind of falling
Speaker 1: and be like, well, ex ex husband, that was for
Speaker 1: your that was for your husband. And Joe was just
Speaker 1: very sweetly was like, yeah, yeah, who do you think
Speaker 1: it was about? I really I like that a lot. Yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, look again, it's Bob Dylan. He must have
Speaker 1: appreciated on some level, like someone throwing his own bullshit
Speaker 1: back in his face, like she's not gonna admit it,
Speaker 1: like you would never admit it if it was the
Speaker 1: other way around. I mean, like Bob Dylan wrote a
Speaker 1: song called Sarah about his wife, and like he kind
Speaker 1: of backed off from that, like really kind of explaining
Speaker 1: the meaning behind that song whenever people would press him
Speaker 1: about it years later, so I mean he's done the
Speaker 1: same thing obviously in his own songs. You saw that
Speaker 1: one Scorsese documentary, right the Rolling Thunder review I was
Speaker 1: on Netflix went up in twenty nineteen. I'm a big
Speaker 1: fan of that movie. One of the great things about
Speaker 1: that movie is that it uses a lot of footage
Speaker 1: from a movie that Bob Dylan directed called Ronaldo and
Speaker 1: Clara that came out in eight and like you can't
Speaker 1: find it anywhere because I don't know if like Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan's embarrassed by this movie. I mean, it was really panned.
Speaker 1: It was like a four hour movie. There were like
Speaker 1: concert clips in that. But there's also like like an
Speaker 1: improvised story in it, and like it's basically about Dylan,
Speaker 1: Sarah and Joan or like the three main characters in it.
Speaker 1: Like I own a bootle copy of Ronaldo and Clara
Speaker 1: and I've never gotten through it because it's like really
Speaker 1: slow and impenetrable. I mean my copy also looks pretty bad.
Speaker 1: Like have you seen Ronaldo and Clara at all? I
Speaker 1: I tried to watch some of it, and I I
Speaker 1: it was unwatchable for me. I just couldn't like I
Speaker 1: found like a really scratchy maybe it was the same
Speaker 1: copy of yours on online, and yeah, it just was
Speaker 1: too I mean, and he directed that, right, Yeah, he
Speaker 1: directed it, and like it's pretty pretentious, it's pretty hard
Speaker 1: to watch, but like there's a lot of great footage
Speaker 1: that was shot during that time, and Scorsese was able
Speaker 1: to take a lot of that footage and turn it
Speaker 1: into like his own sort of wacky meta movie that
Speaker 1: came out in And for me, like the most riveting
Speaker 1: scene in that movie is between Bob Dylan and Joan Bias.
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you remember this scene, but
Speaker 1: like they're talking about their relationship in the past, and
Speaker 1: it's not clear. I mean, for one thing, I'm sure
Speaker 1: that this scene is staged, because there's no way that
Speaker 1: the camera just happened to come upon Dylan and Joan
Speaker 1: having this intimate conversation. I think there's like actually two
Speaker 1: cameras like shooting both of them, so it's obviously staged,
Speaker 1: but it seems like it's also based on some truth
Speaker 1: when you watch it, Like, I don't know if you
Speaker 1: have a read on this at all. I mean, there's
Speaker 1: the dialogue in the scene is incredible like he says,
Speaker 1: you got married without telling me, and then she says
Speaker 1: you got married without telling me? And then Dylan says,
Speaker 1: I married the woman I love, and then Jones says
Speaker 1: I married the man I thought I loved. And then
Speaker 1: there's like a really long pause and I'm like and
Speaker 1: then he goes full Dylan. That's when he does it
Speaker 1: like you thought, you see the thought that's why I'll
Speaker 1: mess you up. Yeah, he says that thought will mess
Speaker 1: you up. But like and he kind of like digs
Speaker 1: into a little bit. But like when I watched that scene,
Speaker 1: I was like, are they going to start boning here?
Speaker 1: Like it is like electric when you watch it and
Speaker 1: they're giving each other these like sort of like googly
Speaker 1: I you know, come hither looks. It's like pretty steamy
Speaker 1: in the in the Steedy and Lindsay analogy, this is
Speaker 1: silver Springs on the on the dance, This is the
Speaker 1: but like with more affection. I feel like silver Springs
Speaker 1: is like hatred. I don't feel hatred here. I feel like,
Speaker 1: are we getting it on here? Do we want to
Speaker 1: get it on? It's like should we get these camera
Speaker 1: crew rut of here so we can have sex like
Speaker 1: on this bar right now. I mean, that's the vibe
Speaker 1: I get from that scene, and it feels like that
Speaker 1: electricity really bounced through like a lot of the performances
Speaker 1: that they had together on that tour, like their duets
Speaker 1: are like really sexy and like really playful and fun.
Speaker 1: Oh there's that great one in I think it was
Speaker 1: in Boston in November seventy when Joan and Bob are
Speaker 1: up there the mic they're about to do I Shall
Speaker 1: Be Released, and someone in the crowd screams, what a
Speaker 1: lovely couple, and Bob just wants wants to die. He
Speaker 1: wants to disappear into the floorboards. He doesn't respond to
Speaker 1: the fan, he can't look at Joan or the crowd.
Speaker 1: He just wants to disappear. Jones saves the day by
Speaker 1: just laughing, don't make myths, couple a couple of what,
Speaker 1: and she puts her hand on Don's neck and they
Speaker 1: start to do this incredible version I Shall Be Released.
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. But then there's this weird thing that happens
Speaker 1: where there's the song oh Sister that Bob Dylan writes
Speaker 1: for the album Desire, And I mean, isn't there like
Speaker 1: a thing like where Joan Bias thought that that was
Speaker 1: about her, Like there's a line in there where he says,
Speaker 1: oh sister, when I come to line in your arms,
Speaker 1: you should not treat me like a stranger or sister?
Speaker 1: Am I not a brother to you? In one deserving
Speaker 1: of affection? This idea that like he maybe turned to
Speaker 1: her at a time of need, and she like turned
Speaker 1: him away, and she kind of took it like did
Speaker 1: she take it that way? And then she wrote her
Speaker 1: own song in response to that, well, she wrote in
Speaker 1: response to his song, oh Sister, she wrote, oh brother again, Yeah,
Speaker 1: oh sister, I always I always took to be at
Speaker 1: least about how she kind of rebuffed him when he
Speaker 1: called that nine in nine seventy four, and she she
Speaker 1: turned around and wrote with domes and rust, Oh brother,
Speaker 1: um is very to the point. This is on is
Speaker 1: golf wins and it's not oh brother in the biblical
Speaker 1: sense like oh Sister was very biblical. This is like
Speaker 1: in the Peanuts gang, like, oh brother, this guy again,
Speaker 1: Uh great lines You've done dirt to lifelong friends with
Speaker 1: little or no excuses. Who endowed you with the crown
Speaker 1: to hand out these abuses? Your lady knows about these things,
Speaker 1: but they don't put her under me. I know about
Speaker 1: them too, and I react like thunder, I don't know.
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go. And then there's that
Speaker 1: line like where she says, uh, because when you hurl
Speaker 1: that bowie knife, it's going to be when my back
Speaker 1: turned doing some little deed for you and baby while
Speaker 1: I get burned. So again this idea that like, oh, Bobby,
Speaker 1: you're like a shitty friend essentially, And it seems like
Speaker 1: that was the state of the relationship for like a
Speaker 1: long time, that they were had this sort of icy
Speaker 1: standoffice thing. And again, if we want to speculate on
Speaker 1: like you know, was this driven in a way by
Speaker 1: like a second breakup in the mid seventies, It seems
Speaker 1: like that's never been fully spelled out, like if they
Speaker 1: actually hooked up again, or if there was just this
Speaker 1: weird sexual tension that was never acted upon. But because
Speaker 1: she only had good memories of the of the Rolling Thundertour,
Speaker 1: right she said, at least for like the first year,
Speaker 1: she said it was great, So yeah, yeah, it seems
Speaker 1: it was positive. But then like in the aftermath, like
Speaker 1: there was a long chilly period between both of them
Speaker 1: and one story I love and it's a very creepy story,
Speaker 1: but it's from because there was this tour that Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan was doing in Europe with Santana, and Joan Bias
Speaker 1: joined this tour, and I think her belief at the
Speaker 1: time was that this was going to be essentially like
Speaker 1: a three bill co headlining tour, where in reality she
Speaker 1: was being brought on as an opening act essentially. So
Speaker 1: once Joan Bayaz realized that she was very unhappy, and
Speaker 1: she writes about this in her memoir in a Voice
Speaker 1: to Sing, and she tells the story about how I
Speaker 1: hate the story so much. There was it was kind
Speaker 1: of a repeat of what happened like twenty years earlier,
Speaker 1: like when you know, she was hoping that like Bob
Speaker 1: would bring her up to sing together, and like I
Speaker 1: think he did a couple of times, but for the
Speaker 1: most part not really. You know, he was doing his
Speaker 1: own thing and they're playing these stadiums and it's not
Speaker 1: really a great situation for Joan baias, so like she
Speaker 1: finally decides that she's going to quit and she goes
Speaker 1: backstage to say goodbye to Bob, and Bob, I guess
Speaker 1: he's just like looking disheveled and sweaty and not in
Speaker 1: good shape. And I'm you know, I think it's pretty
Speaker 1: well documented that at this time Bob Dylan, you know,
Speaker 1: was I think drinking a lot. I think he's probably
Speaker 1: taking a lot of drugs at this time, Like he
Speaker 1: was not in good shape. This is like about four
Speaker 1: years before he went on the Never Ending Tour and
Speaker 1: like really started to kind of clean himself up and
Speaker 1: pull himself together and and become the artist that he's
Speaker 1: been like in the last thirty years. I mean, this
Speaker 1: was like a low point for Bob Dylan. And Joan
Speaker 1: is like, I'm I'm taking off Bob. And she's wearing
Speaker 1: a skirt and Bob Dylan like puts his hand up
Speaker 1: her skirt like and rub it, just like brings his
Speaker 1: hand up her leg, up her thigh, and he says, like, hey,
Speaker 1: you you have great legs, Like how why are your
Speaker 1: legs so good? She's like, because I rehearse, Bob, I
Speaker 1: stand up a lot when I rehearse, and like she
Speaker 1: takes his hand and puts it on his chest and
Speaker 1: I think kisses him on his like sweaty bloated forehead
Speaker 1: and leaves the oh Man it seems like for like
Speaker 1: the next like say, maybe even like twenty five years
Speaker 1: after that, it's like it's pretty cold between them. Oh yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean she she tells the story in her memoir
Speaker 1: in n and Uh. I guess someone asked her about, like,
Speaker 1: you know, did Bob respond to this story in your book? Because,
Speaker 1: I mean the book it paints a sort of warts
Speaker 1: and all portrait of Bob. I mean, it's not very flattering,
Speaker 1: but obviously she she pays tribute to his incredible artistry,
Speaker 1: but it's not the most flattering thing in the world.
Speaker 1: And she told the interviewer, Yeah, no, I never heard
Speaker 1: from about that, but you know what, what that's to
Speaker 1: be expected. I put out two full covers albums of
Speaker 1: his songs and he never responded to those either, so
Speaker 1: you know, go figure. Um. My favorite part of the
Speaker 1: book is when she says that he wrote Masters of
Speaker 1: War as a cash grab. According to her, Bob said,
Speaker 1: you know, when I dropped dead, people are going to
Speaker 1: interpret the ship out of my songs. They're gonna interpret
Speaker 1: every comma. They don't know what the songs mean. Ship,
Speaker 1: I don't know what they mean. So very looks the
Speaker 1: veil on the whole Dylan mythology, I think in her memoir, Yeah,
Speaker 1: I don't doubt that he said that. I feel like
Speaker 1: he has said as much in interviews over the years
Speaker 1: that he is very a verse to like analyzing his
Speaker 1: own work, and he'll let other people do that. But
Speaker 1: I think he's very reluctant to like say what his
Speaker 1: song is mean, or to like put any kind of
Speaker 1: importance on them, although at the same time, he's not
Speaker 1: a humble person either, like he will talk about how
Speaker 1: great of a songwriter he is and how there's no
Speaker 1: one better than him. So it is this combination of
Speaker 1: like not wanting to help out anyone who wants to
Speaker 1: understand his songs, but also feeling like that like, yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm the ship. I'm the ship, but you don't understand
Speaker 1: it and I don't understand it and it doesn't matter. Um.
Speaker 1: I do think that, Like one of the things that
Speaker 1: has come out of all the documentaries that have been
Speaker 1: made about Bob Dylan has been like Bob and Jon
Speaker 1: being able to communicate to each other, like through those movies. Um.
Speaker 1: Like I think about In No Direction Home, where I
Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of of affection that they
Speaker 1: express for each other. You know, they're never on screen
Speaker 1: at the same time. But um, there's that thing I
Speaker 1: said before about how Bob Dylan's trying to plane way
Speaker 1: why he acted the way he did, like on that tour,
Speaker 1: and he doesn't say like I'm sorry in that movie,
Speaker 1: but I think it's it's heavily suggested that he feels
Speaker 1: bad for what happened. And he has that line that
Speaker 1: I mentioned before about how he says, you know, it's
Speaker 1: hard to be wise and in love at the same time.
Speaker 1: And then Joan for her, you know, on on her side,
Speaker 1: I feel like she speaks more eloquently than anyone about
Speaker 1: like why Bob Dylan is a great artist, and she
Speaker 1: has a great line about how, you know, there's people
Speaker 1: in the world who don't care about Bob Dylan at all,
Speaker 1: and they hear are songs and they don't care. And
Speaker 1: she says, but if you are interested, you know, no
Speaker 1: one reaches down deeper than Bob Dylan. And I always
Speaker 1: think about that because I think that's so true, and
Speaker 1: I think it's spoken by someone who did have this
Speaker 1: personal relationship with Bob Dylan, but also at the end
Speaker 1: of the day, is like one of his biggest fans,
Speaker 1: you know, like she can articulate that point of view
Speaker 1: because she's like the rest of us who love his work. Um,
Speaker 1: and as close as she got to him and got
Speaker 1: to know him, you know, he's as much of a
Speaker 1: mystery to her in many ways as he is to
Speaker 1: the rest of us. Yeah, I mean, I always liked
Speaker 1: the thought that until she stopped touring in and she
Speaker 1: sang something like half a dozen dealon songs and concert
Speaker 1: and she would introduce Diamonds and Russ by describing Bob
Speaker 1: as by far the most talented and crazy person I've
Speaker 1: ever worked with, which is it's beautiful. You know, there
Speaker 1: was an interview she gave recently where she said she
Speaker 1: was she was painting one day and put Bob's at
Speaker 1: one of Bob's albums on and just started crying and
Speaker 1: just said, you know, good lord, I know this guy.
Speaker 1: I got to sing with this guy. And so at
Speaker 1: that moment, any of like the bullshit between the two
Speaker 1: just sort of evaporated. And you know, as you said earlier,
Speaker 1: there was really the end of the day, everything is forgiven.
Speaker 1: When I see Bobby sing, I think that's probably the
Speaker 1: most perfect absolption that she could give for him. See
Speaker 1: and again, like, it's so nice to me that with
Speaker 1: all the ups and downs that in this version of
Speaker 1: the Stars Born story, uh none like hanging themselves, you know,
Speaker 1: it's like spoiler, it seems like they came to some
Speaker 1: moment of reconciliation, which is really great. We're gonna take
Speaker 1: a quick break and get a word from our sponsor
Speaker 1: before we get to more rivals. So this is the
Speaker 1: part of the episode where we talk about the pro
Speaker 1: sides for each part of the rivalry and with Joan Bayaz,
Speaker 1: I think you and I have both said this before now,
Speaker 1: but like on a personal level, it seems like she
Speaker 1: was a very decent person to Bob. She genuinely loved him,
Speaker 1: genuinely admired his his talent, and at a moment in
Speaker 1: her career where she was a huge star, she worked
Speaker 1: really hard to give this guy a platform. And I mean,
Speaker 1: I think maybe Bob Dylan want to become a star
Speaker 1: anyway even without her, But I don't think there's any
Speaker 1: question that like she expedited his his rise to start
Speaker 1: them and like he wouldn't have the rear that he
Speaker 1: did in the sixties without her. Oh yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: It's really fascinating. I think what would have happened if
Speaker 1: he would would have been just like, you know, another
Speaker 1: Dave van Ronk or something like that, if it hadn't
Speaker 1: been for her, who was such a major start to
Speaker 1: to give him this massive audience. I do feel very sad,
Speaker 1: and I understand why it happens that any profile of
Speaker 1: Joane will inevitably include a reference to Dylan. But I
Speaker 1: don't think the inverse is ever true, even though she
Speaker 1: had a much bigger impact on his career than he
Speaker 1: did on hers. And I mean chalk it up to
Speaker 1: just he's gargantean role in popular culture, sexism, her own
Speaker 1: frankness on the subject of lyrics and interviews. Whenever she
Speaker 1: was singing about him, she kind of let you know
Speaker 1: it all the above. I don't know, but that always
Speaker 1: that always kind of stuck in my crawl a little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's Bob Dylan, you know. I
Speaker 1: think that there are so many people that are in
Speaker 1: his orbit that just gets sucked in, you know, even
Speaker 1: like you know, we talked about the band in a
Speaker 1: previous episode. I don't think the band would have the
Speaker 1: statue that they have if they hadn't been associated with
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, you know, like they put out great records
Speaker 1: on their own, but like their legend before Music from
Speaker 1: Big Pink was created in launch part because they were
Speaker 1: the backing band for Bob Dylan on that historic nineteen
Speaker 1: sixty six tour, and that they were the band that
Speaker 1: made the basement tapes with him, like which I guess
Speaker 1: at that time would have been known as the Great
Speaker 1: White Wonder the bootleg recordings. But like just being in
Speaker 1: his orbit, especially at that time in the sixties, it
Speaker 1: just is going to overwhelm anyone who's next to it.
Speaker 1: I will say that I think that Joan Baia's ultimately
Speaker 1: does benefit from her association with Bob Dylan, you know,
Speaker 1: as much as we talked about how she helped him
Speaker 1: at a pivotal point in his career, I think it's
Speaker 1: also fair to say that, like a lot of the
Speaker 1: interest that people have today in Joan Baias is due
Speaker 1: to the fact that she did have this association with
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan at a very momentous time in music history
Speaker 1: and cultural history. I think without that, you know, we
Speaker 1: might think of Joan Baias more like Judy Collins or
Speaker 1: like a Buffy St. Marie, like other female folk singers
Speaker 1: of the sixties who are really great, but they don't
Speaker 1: have the same I think name recognition that Joan Bias
Speaker 1: has not just because she was associated with Dylan, but
Speaker 1: also because she was so strong. She's such a strong
Speaker 1: foil and gave it back to him, like especially after
Speaker 1: the fact in her songs and in documentaries and again,
Speaker 1: like she's like my favorite person to see talk about
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. I mean, she's so articulate about it. She's
Speaker 1: also like really candid, like she she doesn't just blindly
Speaker 1: revere him, like she will take him down to peg
Speaker 1: in a very sort of smart and I think justified way.
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that association has definitely helped her
Speaker 1: over the years. When we go to the pro Bob
Speaker 1: Dylan side, I mean, is this like I mean, look,
Speaker 1: I think we both have made clear that like he
Speaker 1: was a jerk in n and like you can watch
Speaker 1: Don't Look Back, and it's pretty clear that he's acting
Speaker 1: like a jerk in that movie. But then you as
Speaker 1: you're that against just the weight of everything he's created.
Speaker 1: If he had retired after Blonde on Blonde, you know
Speaker 1: that the mythical motorcycle accident that he had that forced
Speaker 1: him to go into hiding because essentially his life had
Speaker 1: gotten too crazy at that point he had to find
Speaker 1: a way to save himself. If he had just retired,
Speaker 1: then he would he would be a legend, like if
Speaker 1: it was just about like those first seven or so albums,
Speaker 1: and yet he has gone on to create music for
Speaker 1: like fifty years after that. Can you imagine I mean,
Speaker 1: having that musical legacy plus the Sid Barrett level mystique.
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Right, And I kind of go back
Speaker 1: to that like with him and Joan Bias, where again
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm carrying water for Bob Dylan being
Speaker 1: a bad boyfriends here. I don't mean to do that again.
Speaker 1: I feel like he was in the wrong, and I
Speaker 1: feel bad for Joan Bias at that time. But I
Speaker 1: will say that it's unimaginable to me what it was
Speaker 1: like to be Bob Dylan in you know, what would
Speaker 1: have out have been like like what does that do
Speaker 1: to your health? I mean, And it's kind of amazing
Speaker 1: that he lived at all. Yeah, you know, because I
Speaker 1: think that the kind of attention that he had it
Speaker 1: just goes beyond normal pop stardom. It was like he
Speaker 1: was a pop star, but he was also like a
Speaker 1: messiah figure at the same time, like people thought that
Speaker 1: he was actually going to save the world. You know,
Speaker 1: that he had to write political songs because like we
Speaker 1: needed them, Like people felt like they needed Bob Dylan
Speaker 1: to do certain things, uh, you know, to make the
Speaker 1: world a better place. I guess that's what people look
Speaker 1: at for Taylor Swift now, like we expect Taylor Swift
Speaker 1: to save the world by endorsing the right candidate. I
Speaker 1: guess she's like maybe she's the closest thing to that
Speaker 1: kind of level of like Bob Dylan mystique. Um, but
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, you really can't compare anyone
Speaker 1: to Bob Dylan, I think at that time. And you
Speaker 1: see how infuriating it must for Jon who you know,
Speaker 1: literally is out there getting arrested and on the front
Speaker 1: lines down to Mississippi trying to make a difference. And
Speaker 1: you can see, you know, you can understand a frustration
Speaker 1: for like, you know, why is everyone looking to him.
Speaker 1: I'm the one who actually knows what's happening, and he's
Speaker 1: out there, she was saying interviews. You know, I don't
Speaker 1: think Bob ever want to him march by himself in
Speaker 1: his life. You know, that wasn't that wasn't who he was.
Speaker 1: So you can totally understand not only just why should
Speaker 1: be piste off of him for all the personal stuff,
Speaker 1: but just you know, what does this guy know I'm
Speaker 1: the one who's actually out there talking about this stuff
Speaker 1: on the front line. So yeah, well there's there's that
Speaker 1: great line that she has in No Direction home, where
Speaker 1: she's like, whenever I go to a be in or
Speaker 1: a sit in or a loan or a jail in,
Speaker 1: people always ask me, is Bob coming? And She's like, no,
Speaker 1: you ever gonna come. He's never gonna come. Why would
Speaker 1: he come to this random event, like he's never you know, Yeah,
Speaker 1: he was there with Martin Luther King in nine three
Speaker 1: because I dragged him and he's like, all right, I
Speaker 1: did it. You know. It's like, if you're I was
Speaker 1: with MLK, nothing's going to top that. So you know,
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go instead, you know, totally reinvent rock music
Speaker 1: and changed the course of human history. That that's women
Speaker 1: to do. You guys can go to your protest. I'm
Speaker 1: gonna change an art form for the better. So when
Speaker 1: we look at these two together, I feel like, again
Speaker 1: for me, what I love about it is I still
Speaker 1: look at as a great love story. You know, even
Speaker 1: though they didn't end up together, and even though they
Speaker 1: weren't really together that long. I go back to the
Speaker 1: Stars Born analogy, you know, like there's something really attractive
Speaker 1: to I think all of us about a story where
Speaker 1: you have a really famous person and a less famous
Speaker 1: person and they fall in love, but then there's this
Speaker 1: weird career dynamic that ends up getting in the way,
Speaker 1: you know, and that movie has been remade four times,
Speaker 1: you know, so people obviously are attracted to it. And
Speaker 1: there's that sort of classic quality to the Bob Dylan
Speaker 1: and Joan Baia's story too. I hope they do one
Speaker 1: final do it, because I don't think they've sang together
Speaker 1: since that eighty four tour. I hope they do one
Speaker 1: more time, something, something huge, maybe the next inauguration. Who knows, well,
Speaker 1: love is just a four little word, as they say
Speaker 1: Jordan's and Bob, I feel like we'd have other four
Speaker 1: little words in response to that, But who knows? Who knows?
Speaker 1: Never say never, and it would be amazing to see.
Speaker 1: But maybe it's also more fun to think about it
Speaker 1: than it would be to actually see it. You never know,
Speaker 1: but if that happens, we'll record an emergency Rivals follow
Speaker 1: up episode and break it down for all of you.
Speaker 1: Until then, thank you all all of you for listening
Speaker 1: to this episode of Rivals, and we will be back
Speaker 1: with more beefs and feuds and long simmering resentments next week.
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive
Speaker 1: producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers
Speaker 1: are Taylor Chi Cooin and Tristan McNeil. The producers Joel Hatstat,
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's run Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like
Speaker 1: what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review.
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I
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