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Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. Hello everyone,

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Speaker 1: and welcome to Rivals, the show about music feuds and

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Speaker 1: beefs and long swimmering resentments between musicians. I'm Steve and

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Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's and I'm so excited for this one, I

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Speaker 1: can't even hide it. We've got Bob Dylan, Joan Bayaz,

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Speaker 1: you know, Beauty. It's incredible because, you know, Bob Dylan

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Speaker 1: is an artist with many faces. There's the woody worshiping

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Speaker 1: protest singer. There's the pill popping mod dandy. There's the

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Speaker 1: Nashville troubadour, there's the born again Christian. But we never

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Speaker 1: really get to talk about Bob Dylan, the bad boyfriend.

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Speaker 1: You know, it remains really tragically under disgust. And I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of kidding, but this whole story really does kind

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Speaker 1: of humanize them in a way that I think it's

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Speaker 1: really rare, and you know, especially because Lord knows, Joan

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Speaker 1: won't stand for, you know, any deifying which you know,

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Speaker 1: God bless her. Yeah, yeah, I'm gonna be upfront in

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Speaker 1: this episode. Um, Bob Dylan is my favorite artist of

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Speaker 1: any kind. He's my favorite musician, my favorite writer, my

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Speaker 1: favorite persona or I guess set of personas he's my

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Speaker 1: favorite everything. But I'll admit that whenever I watch a

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Speaker 1: Bob Dylan documentary or read a Bob Dylan book, and

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Speaker 1: trust me, I've like watched many documentaries about this man

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Speaker 1: and read many books, I'm always excited to hear from

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Speaker 1: Joan Baias because she knew him in a way that

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Speaker 1: I feel like most people don't know him. Not that

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Speaker 1: she understands him exactly. I mean, she's set up front

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Speaker 1: that she doesn't understand him, and I don't think anyone

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Speaker 1: really understands Bob Dylan, but she's witnessed the less mythic

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Speaker 1: version of Bob Dylan, shall we say. I mean she

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Speaker 1: was there at a pivotal point in his career early on,

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Speaker 1: she played a major role in making him a star,

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Speaker 1: and she observed the changes in him as he became

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Speaker 1: this iconic figure in the mid nineties sixties. And it's

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Speaker 1: true that she has some like pretty withering things to

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Speaker 1: say about him, and like we're gonna go through that

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Speaker 1: in this episode, but I feel like there's also genuine

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Speaker 1: admireation and even affection that she still has for Dylan,

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Speaker 1: and I feel like the reverse is true as well.

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Speaker 1: I think Dylan still has a place in his heart

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Speaker 1: for Joan Bias, and you mentioned the crappy boyfriend thing earlier.

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Speaker 1: I feel like he's like expressed remorse for that, although

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Speaker 1: maybe not as much as he should have. Right it

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Speaker 1: took him, i'd say, about a good half a century,

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Speaker 1: which you know, I don't know what the statute of

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Speaker 1: limitations is on apologizing and being a bad boyfriend, but

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Speaker 1: that's pushing it. You mentioned understanding Dylan, which I think

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Speaker 1: is such an interesting choice of words, because you know,

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Speaker 1: any other artist where I own like more than two

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Speaker 1: thirds of their discography on multiple formats, read half a

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Speaker 1: dozen books on their lives, watched hours of documentary, I

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Speaker 1: would consider myself a pretty major fan. But for Bob Dylan,

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Speaker 1: that's just like entry level dylanology. That's just like syllinology,

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Speaker 1: the syllabus for like dyllannology, one on one. And it's

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Speaker 1: just so interesting is the intensity of his fan base

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Speaker 1: is just so total. I mean, obviously that speaks to

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Speaker 1: the depth and quality of his work, but it almost

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Speaker 1: makes me fearful discussing him because there's just so many

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Speaker 1: interpretations not only his lyrics, but even just like his

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Speaker 1: inner views, like what did he mean when he when

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Speaker 1: he said that? So I don't know. He's such a

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Speaker 1: fascinating figure, and I feel like, uh. Joan, on the

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Speaker 1: other hand, just doesn't sugarcoat it, doesn't code it in

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Speaker 1: any kind of imagery whatsoever. She's so much more direct,

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Speaker 1: So I almost feel like in this story it kind

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Speaker 1: of tends to skew more her way because she actually

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Speaker 1: lays it all out there, whereas Bob has been much

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Speaker 1: more opaque over the years. But even if it is

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Speaker 1: skewing her way, I feel like she's been again pretty

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Speaker 1: even handled in like the documentaries I've seen, and you know,

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Speaker 1: again like she'll make it clear when he was a jerk.

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Speaker 1: But then she also is very sure to say that

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Speaker 1: she thinks he's a genius and that she's very moved

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Speaker 1: by what he's done. I remember one documentary she said,

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Speaker 1: you know, no matter what Bob Dylan does, always forgiven

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Speaker 1: as soon as he starts singing, which I think is

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Speaker 1: an incredible thing. I think what draws me to the

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Speaker 1: story is that it reminds me in a way of

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Speaker 1: like a star is born, you know, that classic show

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Speaker 1: biz love story, except the genders are reversed and no

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Speaker 1: one died fully Thankfully. It also reminds me a little

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Speaker 1: of a previous Rivals episode that we did, our first one,

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Speaker 1: which was on Lindsay Buckingham and Stevie Nicks. Although I

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Speaker 1: wonder if in this scenario, if Bob Dylan is Stevie Nicks,

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Speaker 1: I can see that I'm gonna vote that Joan is

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Speaker 1: more Stevie, not only because I find it to be

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Speaker 1: the more sympathetic character in this and I find Stevie

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Speaker 1: to be the more sympathetic character in Fleetwood Mac, but

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Speaker 1: also I think about how Stevie supported Lindsay back when

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Speaker 1: they were first making music together. She was taking waitressing

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Speaker 1: jobs and made jobs and stuff while he stayed at

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Speaker 1: home and wrote I feel like Joan kind of played

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Speaker 1: a similar role to Bob, kind of giving him that

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Speaker 1: platform to be the most Bob that he could be,

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Speaker 1: and to really kind of he could sort of follow

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Speaker 1: in her wake, so to speak. And and uh, I

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Speaker 1: mean because she literally gave him an audience. I guess

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Speaker 1: I feel like Bob might be the Stevie because she

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Speaker 1: he ended up being the bigger star and Lindsay was

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Speaker 1: the stronger one at the beginning artistically, and then Stevie

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Speaker 1: surpassed him. But maybe we're getting ahead of ourselves. We

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Speaker 1: should get into the background of this story first before

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Speaker 1: we start Perry Pop Dolan to Stevie Nicks. Perhaps, so

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Speaker 1: without further ado, let's get into this mess. So Joan

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Speaker 1: came on the scene first. Her father had taken a

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Speaker 1: faculty position at m I T. So Joan gotter start

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Speaker 1: singing coffee shops and small clubs around Cambridge in a

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Speaker 1: late fifties and she was still just a teenager. Was

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Speaker 1: crazy how young she was. And she met a guy

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Speaker 1: named Bob Gibson who was a big key figure in

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Speaker 1: the folk music scene at the time. And you know

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Speaker 1: the folk song All My Trials, kind of like an

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Speaker 1: anthem at like early sixties protest marches and stuff. He

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Speaker 1: was the guy who popularized that great beautiful song. Uh.

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Speaker 1: In many black and white documentries you'll hear that song. Yes,

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Speaker 1: it's like in the way that um fortunate Son would

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Speaker 1: be like late sixties All My Trials is like the

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Speaker 1: early sixties standard stock, like early sixties documentary go to song.

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Speaker 1: So Bob Gibson, Big Deal invites Joan to sing at

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Speaker 1: the Newport Folk Festival in nineteen fifty nine, the annual

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Speaker 1: Folk Summit for for you know, Pete Seeger in the

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Speaker 1: whole the whole Gang, and that's really what launched her career.

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Speaker 1: And they sang two duets. They sang Virgin Mary had

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Speaker 1: One Son and we were crossing the River Jordan or

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Speaker 1: the Jordan River, and the response was absolutely overwhelming. It

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Speaker 1: basically led to her getting her first record contract. In

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty, when she was nineteen years old, she released

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Speaker 1: her self titled debut and it became this really unlikely hit.

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Speaker 1: It was just a bunch of traditional folk ballads and

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Speaker 1: it made the Top twenty, and she very quickly became

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Speaker 1: probably the most recognizable mainstream figure of the folk revival

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Speaker 1: this side of like the Kingston Trio. She notched a

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Speaker 1: couple of gold albums in the early sixties. She's on

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Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine, was on TV all the time.

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Speaker 1: And I think it was a mix of incredible talent.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know, her her piercing soprano, incredible intricate

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Speaker 1: guitar work that I think Bob Dylan later said that

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Speaker 1: she could play rings around him. So there was definitely that,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I hate to say this, and I

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Speaker 1: say this with all due respect to her musicality. Her

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Speaker 1: looks in her image played a huge role. It's the

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Speaker 1: early sixties. This is the time when JF A h

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Speaker 1: A lot of people think that the election that year

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Speaker 1: went in his favor because of the televised debates with

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Speaker 1: Richard Nixon. Media is becoming a lot more immediate, and

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Speaker 1: she has a look that plays really well. Yeah, I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna be a little more frank and say that Joan

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Speaker 1: Bayaz is a beautiful woman, Okay. And she sounded great,

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Speaker 1: She looked amazing, She looked like a pop star while

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Speaker 1: also having the credibility of like you said, she was

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Speaker 1: a great guitar player, she could sing beautifully, and she

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Speaker 1: was whipped smart and had a real political consciousness. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: it was like the complete package with Joe Baida. Oh yeah,

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Speaker 1: the color of the barefoot madonna in the press, which

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Speaker 1: I always thought was a great, great name. But but

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Speaker 1: you're right, she's not only talented and beautiful, absolutely brilliant.

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Speaker 1: And it's a showcase in her political activism. She goes

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Speaker 1: down to Mississippi to help integrate schools. So many examples

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Speaker 1: of her just in public taking these great moral stands,

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Speaker 1: and she really kind of becomes like sort of the

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Speaker 1: social conscious of the folk scene, and many of her

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Speaker 1: songs are embraced by all the protest movements of the time. Uh.

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Speaker 1: She influenced the whole generation of rising singers Judy Collins,

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Speaker 1: Emmy Lou Harris, Joni Mitchell, Bonnie Rate all ciders and inspiration,

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Speaker 1: as does a young Robert Zimmerman who's watching her on

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Speaker 1: TV in Minnesota. UH. In his two thousand four autobiography Chronicles,

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Speaker 1: he talks about seeing her on TV for the first time.

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Speaker 1: He wrote, I couldn't stop looking at her and didn't

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Speaker 1: want to blink. The sight of her made me sigh

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Speaker 1: all that, and then there was the voice, a voice

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Speaker 1: that drove out bad spirits. She's sang in a voice

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Speaker 1: straight to God. Nothing she did didn't work. Beautiful thing

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Speaker 1: to say about someone. Yeah, he's very effusive. Although there's

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Speaker 1: another quote that he had, um I think it's in

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Speaker 1: the Direction Home documentary where he said he saw her

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Speaker 1: on TV and he said, oh, I think she needs

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Speaker 1: a singing partner. So yeah, definitely very Dylanesque type balance

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Speaker 1: there of like genuine reverence and he was also having

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Speaker 1: some bravado there. In the documentary, Joan and Bob end

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Speaker 1: up meeting in and this is I think a little

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Speaker 1: bit after Bob had arrived in New York. He rives

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Speaker 1: in January sixty one, and her reaction to him, I

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Speaker 1: think is similar to like how a lot of people

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Speaker 1: reacted when they first saw Bob Dylan, that he was

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Speaker 1: this sort of dirty street urchin looking character and he

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Speaker 1: had a lot of like baby fat on his face.

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Speaker 1: There wasn't really anything exceptional about him really, like when

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Speaker 1: you first looked at him. Um. But of course, Bob

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Speaker 1: Dylan ends up going through an incredible artistic and personal

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Speaker 1: evolution during this time that even now it's hard to comprehend,

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Speaker 1: like how quickly he became Bob Dylan, the guy that

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Speaker 1: was going to be writing these incredible songs that uh,

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Speaker 1: we still love today. With Jone, it seems like because

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Speaker 1: she wrote in her memoir about again like not being

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Speaker 1: terribly impressed by him. But on the other hand, she

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Speaker 1: did have enough foresight to recognize the quality of one

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Speaker 1: of his earliest songs, which is Sung to Woody, which

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Speaker 1: is I think the only song that he wrote for

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Speaker 1: his first record. Otherwise that first record is like all

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Speaker 1: rs and the types of covers that, like other folk

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Speaker 1: singers in New York we're playing at that time. Of course,

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Speaker 1: his second record, which comes out in sixty two, Free

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Speaker 1: Will and Bob Dylan is the one that has Masses

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Speaker 1: of War and Heart Reign is Gonna Fall and Blown

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Speaker 1: in the Wind and Girl from the North Country. And

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Speaker 1: he's already becoming Bob Dylan at that point. But Joan

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Speaker 1: meets Bob, isn't terribly impressed, but wants to play one

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Speaker 1: of his songs. Bob, of course meets Joan, he's already

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Speaker 1: seen her on TV. I imagine him having like the

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Speaker 1: wildly coyote eyes, you know, that like bug out of

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Speaker 1: his skull, you know, because not only is this a

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Speaker 1: celebrity essentially, but she's again, like as we said, she's

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Speaker 1: this beautiful, charismatic woman. And it seems like the attraction

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Speaker 1: soon became mutual. And I wondered to what degree Joan

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Speaker 1: was just sort of drawn in by the exploding talent

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Speaker 1: that Bob Dylan was starting to display at this time,

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Speaker 1: But at any rate, she ended up inviting him to

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Speaker 1: her family's home in northern California, and she really starts

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Speaker 1: taking him under her wing. Like you know, he didn't

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Speaker 1: have a lot of money at this time, but she

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Speaker 1: provided a space for him where he could start writing

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Speaker 1: these songs. And it's interesting because I think about there

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Speaker 1: was that Martin Scorsese documentary that came out in the

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Speaker 1: Rolling Thunder review, and there's a famous scene in that

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Speaker 1: movie that we're gonna talk about later in this episode.

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Speaker 1: But in that scene, Bob Dylan makes reference to being

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Speaker 1: at this house near the Pacific Ocean and writing songs

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Speaker 1: very quickly, and I assume that that's a reference to

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Speaker 1: this time, you know, like when they were first kind

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Speaker 1: of getting together and again having this dynamic of him

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Speaker 1: being this unusual guy with a squeaky voice and her

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Speaker 1: being this big star that is gonna like show him

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Speaker 1: to the world. I mean, it seems like what they

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Speaker 1: were at the beginning, absolutely. I mean, she would invite

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Speaker 1: him to perform with her on many cases, most famously

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Speaker 1: at the New Fork Folk Festival in uh in sixty three.

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Speaker 1: She was kind of repaying the favor from Bob Gibson,

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Speaker 1: and that is sort of like similar for her the

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Speaker 1: moment that he really just goes stratospheric. I mean, you

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Speaker 1: couldn't craft a moment that is more perfect for his

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Speaker 1: sort of ascension. You know, he where he's sort of

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Speaker 1: part of the continuum of wood. He got three to

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Speaker 1: Pete Seeger to Bob Dylan's He closes I think the

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Speaker 1: first night of the festival with everybody's joined on stage

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Speaker 1: by Joan, Pete Seeger, Peter, Paul and Mary and the

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Speaker 1: s NCCS Freedom Singers, and they all join hands and

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Speaker 1: sing blown in the Wind and we Shall Overcome. It's

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Speaker 1: a beautiful moment. And that really is kind of when

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Speaker 1: he arrives um and Joan is still bringing him out

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Speaker 1: on her tours and there are people booing him, and she,

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Speaker 1: I think she wrote in her memoir she had to

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Speaker 1: get all schoolmarm and kind of wag her finger at

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Speaker 1: them and say, no, look, I know this guy sounds

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Speaker 1: a little weird. I know you're sort of used to

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Speaker 1: my pitch perfect voice and he sounds like Bob Dylan.

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Speaker 1: But listen to the words. This guy is a genius.

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Speaker 1: Oh it's so good. I mean. And she tells this

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Speaker 1: great story too, when she's trying to get him a

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Speaker 1: hotel room, and I guess he's turned away because he's

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Speaker 1: still like in Full Wood, he gut three attire with

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Speaker 1: like you know, rope for suspenders and stuff like that.

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Speaker 1: He looks like he just came off the back of

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Speaker 1: a box car and they wouldn't give him a room

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Speaker 1: and she had to pull her you know, do you

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Speaker 1: know who I am? Card? Basically and uh and and

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Speaker 1: she goes over to him later and he'd written when

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Speaker 1: the Ship Comes In based on this whole exchange. But

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Speaker 1: she always thought was such a true mark of his

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Speaker 1: talent of just of feeling just so rejected and responding

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Speaker 1: with this absolutely incredible song. Yeah. You know, like when

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Speaker 1: you were talking about that Newport moment, it just made

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Speaker 1: me think of, like, that's the moment if we're going

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Speaker 1: to compare this to a Star is Born, because I'm

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Speaker 1: gonna I'm gonna be bringing the Stars Born analogy into

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Speaker 1: this episode in the scenario, like Joan Baiaz is essentially

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Speaker 1: like the Jackson Maine figure bringing in Bob Dylan, who

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Speaker 1: is the Lady Gaga if you will, and they're gonna

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Speaker 1: say shallow together and this is the moment that it

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Speaker 1: turns Bob Dylan slash Lady Gaga into a star. Is

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Speaker 1: that a fair submission? Of like what the scenario is.

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Speaker 1: I think it's absolutely a fair as summation. I think

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Speaker 1: also there's the added element of Joan being sort of

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Speaker 1: the honey for Bob's songs. I mean a lot of

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Speaker 1: people at that time, in the early years of Bob's

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Speaker 1: career aren't listening to him because they're so turned off

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Speaker 1: by his voice. But Joan sings his songs for him,

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Speaker 1: and kind of it's what's able to put his songs

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Speaker 1: across to a mass medium early in the career when

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Speaker 1: they're not really used to. So she's providing the honey.

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Speaker 1: But she's also pushing Dylan in a more political direction.

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Speaker 1: Of course, he's already writing these great anthems that people

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Speaker 1: will be singing at marches for the next fifty plus years. Again,

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Speaker 1: Blown in the Wind Times, they are changing masters of war,

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Speaker 1: with God on our side, all these wonderful songs. But

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Speaker 1: it seems like one of the first cracks in their

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Speaker 1: relationship is that Joan wants to go even farther in

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Speaker 1: that direction at the moment where Bob wants to pull

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Speaker 1: back right right. I mean, she's like literally on the

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Speaker 1: front lines down in Mississippi. I mean, Bob goes down

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Speaker 1: there too, and he sings only upon in their game

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Speaker 1: and when the ship comes in later that fall to

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Speaker 1: vote voter registration and rally. But he really is trying

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Speaker 1: to back off. He doesn't want to be the guy.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't want that responsibility. And she later expressed remorse

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Speaker 1: for trying to push him further and further into sort

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Speaker 1: of engaging in acts of civil disobedience. And I think

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Speaker 1: Joan got arrested untold number of times in the sixties

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Speaker 1: for being at them on the front lines of when

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Speaker 1: the troops were being shipped off to Paris Island in

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Speaker 1: different uh, different places where boot camps and things like that.

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Speaker 1: He didn't want to do that. He really didn't want

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Speaker 1: to be that guy. And she was expressed remorse in

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Speaker 1: later years for not recognizing that his acts were the

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Speaker 1: songs that was his gift to the movement, not being

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Speaker 1: I wonder, you know, and this is gonna be me

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Speaker 1: psychoanalyzing Bob and Joan here. I wonder if on some

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Speaker 1: level Bob Dylan started to look at Joan Bias as

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Speaker 1: like a symbol of like what he was starting to

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Speaker 1: resent about the folk world, you know, the strident politics,

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Speaker 1: the musical conservatism, like the rigidity of that scene. It's

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Speaker 1: you know, obviously we all know that Dylan goes electric

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Speaker 1: story and him writing songs like Positively Fourth Street where

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Speaker 1: he is really lashing out at those people. And I

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Speaker 1: just wonder if he came to look at Joan Bayaz,

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Speaker 1: who again was this beautiful symbol of that music scene

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Speaker 1: really was like the figurehead in a lot of ways,

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Speaker 1: at least like in the pop music end of folk music.

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Speaker 1: I just wonder if maybe that fueled how he came

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Speaker 1: to look at her and how he starts to treat

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Speaker 1: her as their relationship starts to crumble a little bit

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Speaker 1: um like I think about. I don't know if you

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Speaker 1: remember this scene in No Direction Home, there's a there's

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Speaker 1: an interview clip where Joan Bayaz is talking about how

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Speaker 1: at one point Bob Dylan said to her, hey, let's

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Speaker 1: go headline Carnegie Hall or or some other big music venue,

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Speaker 1: and Joan Baias says, well, what are you gonna do

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Speaker 1: with it? You know? The implication being that if we're

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Speaker 1: going to become big stars, that it ought to be

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Speaker 1: to further some sort of politic the end, and it's

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Speaker 1: clear that like Bob Dylan like by nineteen sixty four

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Speaker 1: was not thinking in those terms in his career or

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Speaker 1: in his art, Like he's looking at the beats. He's

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Speaker 1: looking at like the French modernist writers, and he doesn't

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Speaker 1: want to be hemmed in. He doesn't want to be

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Speaker 1: a politician. He wants to be an artist, and it

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Speaker 1: seems like that really becomes something that is beginning to

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Speaker 1: drive them apart. Yeah. Absolutely. You can see that on

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Speaker 1: his next release, Another Side of Bob Dylan in August

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Speaker 1: nineteen sixty four, and it's really a political and the

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Speaker 1: reaction from folk purists were it was sort of like

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Speaker 1: a mini Dylon goes Electric moment, and they thought he

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Speaker 1: was abandoning the cause and wasn't living up to his responsibilities.

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Speaker 1: That was I think the underlying things that he has

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Speaker 1: responsibilities and Bob didn't want them. And you know, I

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Speaker 1: always think of that scene in the Life of Brian

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Speaker 1: with the you know, the the Judean People's Front. Have

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Speaker 1: you ever seen the Monty Python movie when it's just

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Speaker 1: all these little cliques that all hate each other and

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Speaker 1: then just the infighting and everything. I always got the

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Speaker 1: impression that he sort of viewed the the prous movement

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Speaker 1: by like late sixty four, like that as sort of

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Speaker 1: this seconcestuous group that really that was forced him to

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Speaker 1: be something he didn't want to be. I think the

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Speaker 1: other thing that's starting to happen to around this time

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Speaker 1: and again this is bringing back the stars born analogy

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Speaker 1: here where Bob Dylan is Lady Gaga. I just want

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Speaker 1: to put that thought into the minds of listeners Bob

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Speaker 1: Bob Dylan and the star is born, where he is

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Speaker 1: becoming a bigger star, and not only a bigger star,

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Speaker 1: but like a hipper star, Like he's moving into a

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Speaker 1: realm of music, where like he is the point person

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Speaker 1: for the culture. Like the Beatles are looking to Bob Dylan,

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Speaker 1: the Rolling Stones are looking to Bob Dylan, like whatever

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Speaker 1: this guy is doing, we want to follow him. And

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Speaker 1: Joan Baya is as great as she is at being

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Speaker 1: that barefoot Madonna figure, you know that that archetypical sixties

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Speaker 1: folk singer, It really starts to become really like a

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Speaker 1: pass a idea, like that kind of folk music is

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Speaker 1: not going to be very cool as we move into

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Speaker 1: the mid sixties. And I feel like that tension, that

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Speaker 1: career tension, was also something that was really starting to

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Speaker 1: hurt the relationship. Yeah, there was a great story where

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Speaker 1: they were having dinner, Bob and Joan up in uh

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Speaker 1: in Woodstock, and there was a woman across the restaurant

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Speaker 1: just sort of making eyes at him all night and

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Speaker 1: and Bob meanwhile, was just pounding the veno. And by

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Speaker 1: the end of the night, this woman comes over and

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Speaker 1: basically just throws herself at him. And Joan is furious

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Speaker 1: for two reasons. I mean, one, you know, another woman

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Speaker 1: is now in her man's lap. And also she she wrote,

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Speaker 1: I think in her memoir, you know I was used

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Speaker 1: to getting that adoration, you know that that was had

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Speaker 1: been reserved for me and not this drunken sot sitting

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Speaker 1: next to me. Uh So that had to hurt. But

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Speaker 1: you know, I mean I think, I mean it sounds

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Speaker 1: obvious to state now, but his writing, he was a

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Speaker 1: writer than a Joan I don't think really was. And

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Speaker 1: there was a great American Masters Um documentary PBS did

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Speaker 1: probably about ten years ago, and Steve Earles interviewed and

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Speaker 1: he said, you know, folk music became more important when

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Speaker 1: Dylan songs were written. They set the stage that made

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Speaker 1: rock and roll literature and therefore made rock and roll

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Speaker 1: on art form. You know, if you're gonna progress the

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Speaker 1: art form of folk music, Joan at that point was

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Speaker 1: really doing, you know, eighty year old songs, hadn't year

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Speaker 1: old songs, and and wasn't moving it forward, and and

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Speaker 1: Bob wasn't She She definitely knew that. I mean it

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Speaker 1: was she her admiration for his songwriting has been so

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Speaker 1: total through the years. But yeah, it had to be

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Speaker 1: painful for her as a fellow artist, and also he

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Speaker 1: wasn't being very nice about it. In in the spring

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Speaker 1: of nine five they did a co headlining tour and

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Speaker 1: it was very right down the middle. There's that beautiful

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Speaker 1: poster that looks like some kind of turn of the

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Speaker 1: century French impression is painting of the two of them.

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Speaker 1: I think Jon's name is first, but Bob's head is

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Speaker 1: a little higher. They went and really really made sure

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Speaker 1: to have it be fifty fifty. But he that was

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Speaker 1: really I think when the relationship started to disintegrate. He

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Speaker 1: was very hard to just do songs with because, as

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Speaker 1: you know, people who go see his endless tour, now, no,

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Speaker 1: he doesn't do a song the same way night after night.

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Speaker 1: And so she was trying to duet with him, and

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Speaker 1: he would just put in a different time signature just

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Speaker 1: to mess her up and specifically to mess her up.

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Speaker 1: But that's just what he felt like doing that night.

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Speaker 1: And if you've got to play a song with somebody

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Speaker 1: that's in a waltz, and then the next night you

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Speaker 1: do it in two four, that's difficult. And she would

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Speaker 1: later say, you know, he's very unique. It's it's admirable

430
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:19,560
Speaker 1: to want to change it up every night, but it's

431
00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,840
Speaker 1: a pain in the ass when you're working with him

432
00:21:21,920 --> 00:21:24,200
Speaker 1: and expecting something from him. And again, it gets back

433
00:21:24,240 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 1: to that notion of expecting something from Bob, and Bob

434
00:21:27,680 --> 00:21:30,840
Speaker 1: hates when there are expectations made of him, so he

435
00:21:30,960 --> 00:21:33,520
Speaker 1: was hard to actually perform with. And then also they

436
00:21:33,560 --> 00:21:36,159
Speaker 1: had a huge blow up fight. I guess his favorite

437
00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:41,000
Speaker 1: jacket got stolen and he unleashed all this rage, probably

438
00:21:41,080 --> 00:21:44,800
Speaker 1: pill related rage at the security guard, and Jon was

439
00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:46,720
Speaker 1: just like, what are you doing. Don't talk. You can't

440
00:21:46,720 --> 00:21:48,840
Speaker 1: talk to people like that. That's awful, And then of

441
00:21:48,880 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: course he completely rounded on her. They go out on

442
00:21:52,040 --> 00:21:54,720
Speaker 1: stage and have an amazing concert. You know, they walk

443
00:21:54,760 --> 00:21:57,720
Speaker 1: off stage together applauses dying down she turns him and says, Wow,

444
00:21:57,720 --> 00:21:59,639
Speaker 1: you should get Piste off more often before show that

445
00:21:59,720 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: was and then she completely rounded on her again. And

446
00:22:04,080 --> 00:22:06,400
Speaker 1: I think that's probably around when they begin the emotionally

447
00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:10,080
Speaker 1: distance themselves, which sets the stage four. Yeah, well, because

448
00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,959
Speaker 1: you're talking about the Spring tour. But I think when

449
00:22:13,960 --> 00:22:16,359
Speaker 1: people think about sixty five and Bob Dylan and Joan

450
00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:18,879
Speaker 1: baia As, they're thinking about the tour that came after that,

451
00:22:18,920 --> 00:22:21,880
Speaker 1: which was in England and the tour that is documented

452
00:22:22,000 --> 00:22:26,080
Speaker 1: in the legendary documentary Don't Look Back. And when we

453
00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 1: think about Bob Dylan and Joan Baias in that movie,

454
00:22:28,400 --> 00:22:32,080
Speaker 1: we essentially think about Bob Dylan being it looks like

455
00:22:32,119 --> 00:22:36,320
Speaker 1: either really stoned on weed or like just like wired

456
00:22:36,320 --> 00:22:38,600
Speaker 1: to the gills on pills. Why can't it be both.

457
00:22:38,720 --> 00:22:40,520
Speaker 1: You smoke the weed to come down from the pills

458
00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:41,959
Speaker 1: and then you take the pills to get up from

459
00:22:41,960 --> 00:22:45,119
Speaker 1: the weed. And it seems like that was definitely, uh

460
00:22:45,160 --> 00:22:47,600
Speaker 1: the system that Bob Dylan was on at that time.

461
00:22:48,119 --> 00:22:51,560
Speaker 1: And look, like I said, I am a Bob Dylan fanboy,

462
00:22:51,960 --> 00:22:54,240
Speaker 1: I'm not going to make excuses for like how he

463
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,000
Speaker 1: treats Joan Baias and don't look back, because he is

464
00:22:57,040 --> 00:22:59,280
Speaker 1: like pretty cruel to her, and it looks like she's

465
00:22:59,280 --> 00:23:02,679
Speaker 1: like having as rubal time the entire tour, and you

466
00:23:02,720 --> 00:23:05,000
Speaker 1: just are just like, why don't you just leave the tour,

467
00:23:05,200 --> 00:23:07,760
Speaker 1: which is something that she has said in subsequent years

468
00:23:07,800 --> 00:23:10,040
Speaker 1: that she should have just left. But she was there,

469
00:23:10,080 --> 00:23:13,200
Speaker 1: I think out of a combination of like feeling lovesick

470
00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,119
Speaker 1: for Bob and also having this wounded ego of knowing

471
00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:21,160
Speaker 1: that she was in the process of being usurped by

472
00:23:21,240 --> 00:23:24,400
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, you know, this person that had once been

473
00:23:24,440 --> 00:23:27,520
Speaker 1: her opening act essentially, but I think with Bob Dylan

474
00:23:27,560 --> 00:23:30,399
Speaker 1: at this time, and again this isn't an excuse, but

475
00:23:30,440 --> 00:23:32,879
Speaker 1: I think it is worth noting that he was about

476
00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,160
Speaker 1: four years old. He was in the process of becoming

477
00:23:36,320 --> 00:23:41,640
Speaker 1: the Bob Dylan, which entailed a level of adulation that

478
00:23:41,800 --> 00:23:43,879
Speaker 1: I guess you could compare it to the Beatles. I

479
00:23:43,920 --> 00:23:46,159
Speaker 1: think that's the only person that you could compare it to.

480
00:23:46,600 --> 00:23:49,920
Speaker 1: Even though the Beatles were much more commercially successful than

481
00:23:49,960 --> 00:23:54,560
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, they didn't have the level of importance spread

482
00:23:54,640 --> 00:23:57,200
Speaker 1: spread on the floor. And also they didn't, at least

483
00:23:57,240 --> 00:23:59,200
Speaker 1: at that time, they weren't looked at with the same

484
00:23:59,280 --> 00:24:01,360
Speaker 1: kind of reverence that Bob Dylan was like, because Bob

485
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:04,080
Speaker 1: Dylan wasn't just a pop star, he was like the

486
00:24:04,160 --> 00:24:07,760
Speaker 1: voice of a generation. Like that archetype in rock music

487
00:24:08,280 --> 00:24:10,639
Speaker 1: was affixed to Bob Dylan. I don't know if it

488
00:24:10,680 --> 00:24:12,960
Speaker 1: was first, but to me, he's like the most obvious

489
00:24:12,960 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 1: example of that archetype. Yeah, he was at the March

490
00:24:16,040 --> 00:24:19,600
Speaker 1: on Washington, you know. I mean he is there alongside

491
00:24:19,640 --> 00:24:21,159
Speaker 1: Martin Luther King. I mean you view him in a

492
00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,720
Speaker 1: certain way, especially in the early six he's at the March.

493
00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,639
Speaker 1: He's also writing like the greatest songs ever, you know,

494
00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:30,120
Speaker 1: and he's moving the art form forward in a way.

495
00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:32,560
Speaker 1: Going back to what Steve Ril said in that documentary,

496
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:36,320
Speaker 1: that people looked at him as like transforming something that

497
00:24:36,400 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 1: had existed in one form and now he's elevating it

498
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,320
Speaker 1: to something else. And that is the kind of reference

499
00:24:42,320 --> 00:24:46,560
Speaker 1: that Bob Dylan is having foisted upon him. In again,

500
00:24:46,600 --> 00:24:49,600
Speaker 1: not excusing him for being a bad boyfriend, but I

501
00:24:49,640 --> 00:24:55,600
Speaker 1: feel like those types of circumstances would probably affect anyone's

502
00:24:55,640 --> 00:24:59,199
Speaker 1: mood or anyone's relationships with other people. It must have

503
00:24:59,200 --> 00:25:03,040
Speaker 1: been in credibly difficult and and it's all there on film,

504
00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,960
Speaker 1: seeing how he's basically being twisted into this very sort

505
00:25:08,000 --> 00:25:13,199
Speaker 1: of like mean spirited, gamesmanship driven. He's sort of like

506
00:25:13,240 --> 00:25:15,560
Speaker 1: the prince of the Kingdom, you know, like he knows

507
00:25:15,600 --> 00:25:18,359
Speaker 1: that anyone will do anything that he wants, and you

508
00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:20,480
Speaker 1: can see it going to his head. But you also

509
00:25:20,560 --> 00:25:23,240
Speaker 1: see him being a brilliant artist at the same time.

510
00:25:23,440 --> 00:25:26,639
Speaker 1: And Joan is basically caught up in this like like

511
00:25:26,680 --> 00:25:29,760
Speaker 1: it's a meat grinder, and and you feel terrible for

512
00:25:29,800 --> 00:25:33,679
Speaker 1: her as this is going on, because not only is

513
00:25:34,080 --> 00:25:36,800
Speaker 1: you know, she's showing up at these concerts and expecting

514
00:25:36,840 --> 00:25:39,200
Speaker 1: to be invited to go on stage because she wasn't

515
00:25:39,200 --> 00:25:41,159
Speaker 1: actually performing on this to her, right, I mean, she

516
00:25:41,240 --> 00:25:43,399
Speaker 1: was just there to hang out with Bob, and I

517
00:25:43,400 --> 00:25:46,280
Speaker 1: think her feeling was that, well, she'll like, he'll invite

518
00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:49,440
Speaker 1: me up there to sing, but he never really did,

519
00:25:49,960 --> 00:25:51,720
Speaker 1: so she's just sort of hanging out there for no

520
00:25:51,840 --> 00:25:54,600
Speaker 1: reason ultimately, right, I mean, I think she laiced up.

521
00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:56,240
Speaker 1: She had her own sold out show at the Royal

522
00:25:56,280 --> 00:25:58,720
Speaker 1: Albert Hall while she was over there, but it meant

523
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:02,240
Speaker 1: nothing to her. She was just so demoralized by you know,

524
00:26:02,480 --> 00:26:05,520
Speaker 1: her her her lover first of all. And also this

525
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,879
Speaker 1: person that she respects so much artistically just wasn't paying

526
00:26:08,880 --> 00:26:10,680
Speaker 1: her any mind at all. And there's that great scene

527
00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,399
Speaker 1: and don't look back where she's tinkering with love is

528
00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:15,280
Speaker 1: just a four letter word that that Bob has just

529
00:26:15,280 --> 00:26:17,359
Speaker 1: written and I don't think he even finished yet, and

530
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:19,800
Speaker 1: she's playing it to him and doing a beautiful version

531
00:26:19,840 --> 00:26:21,719
Speaker 1: of it, which is such a you know, the nicest

532
00:26:21,720 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 1: thing one artist can do for another is to play

533
00:26:23,480 --> 00:26:27,159
Speaker 1: their song. And he's just like looking daggers at her.

534
00:26:27,160 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: He's like disgusted by it and he just rolls his eyes.

535
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:34,320
Speaker 1: I don't think that's necessarily true. See again, I am,

536
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:37,479
Speaker 1: I think more empathetic to Dylan maybe than you are

537
00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:40,000
Speaker 1: in the situation, because when I look at that scene,

538
00:26:40,080 --> 00:26:43,000
Speaker 1: I see a guy who is at his typewriter writing

539
00:26:43,240 --> 00:26:44,800
Speaker 1: and I don't know what he was writing. He was

540
00:26:44,840 --> 00:26:47,840
Speaker 1: probably writing like an amazing song because it's Bob Dylan

541
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:50,840
Speaker 1: in nine and he is in the process of like

542
00:26:51,000 --> 00:26:54,920
Speaker 1: basically channeling an incredible amount of music, you know at

543
00:26:54,960 --> 00:26:57,800
Speaker 1: this time, Like again, this is Bob Dylan in X five,

544
00:26:57,920 --> 00:27:00,919
Speaker 1: Like there's really no one else you compare him to

545
00:27:01,359 --> 00:27:04,000
Speaker 1: the songwriting output that he was going through at this

546
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:06,399
Speaker 1: period in his career, and he's trying to type, and

547
00:27:06,440 --> 00:27:10,919
Speaker 1: there's this woman there that he maybe doesn't want to

548
00:27:10,960 --> 00:27:13,200
Speaker 1: be there, but he can't tell her that he doesn't

549
00:27:13,200 --> 00:27:16,560
Speaker 1: want her to be there. And I don't know it.

550
00:27:16,920 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 1: I'm not excusing again the behavior, but I understand his

551
00:27:19,920 --> 00:27:23,239
Speaker 1: perspective of like I am trying to move forward and

552
00:27:23,320 --> 00:27:26,560
Speaker 1: maybe this person belongs in my past and not in

553
00:27:26,640 --> 00:27:29,080
Speaker 1: my present. You know. To me, that's the tension of

554
00:27:29,160 --> 00:27:33,320
Speaker 1: that scene. And I don't necessarily feel like he's looking

555
00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:36,880
Speaker 1: daggers at her. I feel he's more like maybe conflicted

556
00:27:37,359 --> 00:27:39,720
Speaker 1: where he wants her to go, but he can't tell

557
00:27:39,760 --> 00:27:42,000
Speaker 1: her to go. You know, there's a part of him

558
00:27:42,000 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: that can't allow him to do that. There's something he

559
00:27:44,200 --> 00:27:47,640
Speaker 1: says later in UM. I think it's a no direction home,

560
00:27:47,800 --> 00:27:49,280
Speaker 1: and it reminds me of a lyric that he would

561
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:51,119
Speaker 1: have written for, like Blood on the Tracks or something.

562
00:27:51,200 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 1: He says like it's hard to be wise and in

563
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 1: love at the same time. And I actually think that's

564
00:27:55,560 --> 00:28:00,439
Speaker 1: a pretty apt description of that UM. Even if you

565
00:28:00,480 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 1: watch it as an outsider and you feel like, oh,

566
00:28:02,400 --> 00:28:06,560
Speaker 1: poor Joan Bias, because that's my feeling when I watch it. Um,

567
00:28:06,600 --> 00:28:09,160
Speaker 1: but I also feel like maybe he was pursuing something

568
00:28:09,200 --> 00:28:12,080
Speaker 1: greater and bigger and he didn't have time for that.

569
00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:14,720
Speaker 1: You know, I don't know. Am I being too kind

570
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: to Bob Dylan? No? I mean I think in that scene,

571
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: I completely see what you're saying. I feel as though

572
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:23,879
Speaker 1: because we haven't mentioned Sarah, his future wife, Sarah, who

573
00:28:23,960 --> 00:28:26,199
Speaker 1: he also brought on the tour, which is, you know,

574
00:28:26,200 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: if if you're gonna bring two girlfriends on one tour,

575
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,840
Speaker 1: that's a bold move. I feel like uh and and

576
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:33,760
Speaker 1: Joan they did a really good job of trying to

577
00:28:33,840 --> 00:28:37,679
Speaker 1: keep Joan away from Sarah until Joan bought Bob a present.

578
00:28:37,680 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: I think he bought him a blue shirt and went

579
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:40,960
Speaker 1: to his hotel room to to try to give it

580
00:28:41,000 --> 00:28:44,720
Speaker 1: to him, and Sarah answered the door and sort of

581
00:28:44,760 --> 00:28:48,040
Speaker 1: quizzically was like, well, I took the gift for Joan. Uh.

582
00:28:48,120 --> 00:28:50,040
Speaker 1: Joan didn't know she existed, and I think that was

583
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:52,160
Speaker 1: the moment that she kind of knew that that things

584
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:53,720
Speaker 1: were over. There was another woman in his life in

585
00:28:53,760 --> 00:28:55,800
Speaker 1: a major way. All right, Hey, we'll be right back

586
00:28:55,840 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: with more rivals. So what's interesting to me is to

587
00:29:08,000 --> 00:29:11,320
Speaker 1: look at this period of Bob Dylan songwriting, because again,

588
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:13,920
Speaker 1: he was very prolific at this time. And you know,

589
00:29:14,040 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 1: I think even casual Bob Dylan fans could name like

590
00:29:16,800 --> 00:29:19,960
Speaker 1: a dozen classic songs like from the mid sixties that

591
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:21,840
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan wrote. But I know, like you and I

592
00:29:21,880 --> 00:29:24,480
Speaker 1: were trying to figure out, like what songs did Bob

593
00:29:24,520 --> 00:29:26,880
Speaker 1: Dylan write about Joan Bias because I feel like there's

594
00:29:26,960 --> 00:29:29,960
Speaker 1: like a lot of conversation, you know, speculating on what

595
00:29:30,080 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: songs are about her or what songs are about Sarah.

596
00:29:33,440 --> 00:29:35,960
Speaker 1: And of course Bob Dylan is never all that helpful

597
00:29:36,440 --> 00:29:39,400
Speaker 1: like in these situations. He's never just like, yeah, that's

598
00:29:39,440 --> 00:29:42,720
Speaker 1: about Joan And you know that's my Bob Dylan impression

599
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:46,640
Speaker 1: that you know, it's pretty it's pretty stock, you know,

600
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: it's pretty rich little but you know, what can I say?

601
00:29:49,680 --> 00:29:52,560
Speaker 1: But like, what, like what are the songs that people

602
00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:55,600
Speaker 1: have like focused it on the most as maybe being

603
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,040
Speaker 1: about Joan Bias? Well, the one I always really thought

604
00:29:58,240 --> 00:30:00,280
Speaker 1: was at least a line and just like a woman

605
00:30:00,280 --> 00:30:02,959
Speaker 1: when we meet again, introduced those friends. Please don't let

606
00:30:03,000 --> 00:30:05,120
Speaker 1: on that you knew me when I was hungry and

607
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:07,840
Speaker 1: it was your world, because I just thought that really

608
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: obviously references, you know when when he came on the

609
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:13,520
Speaker 1: scene and Joan was the queen of folk, you know,

610
00:30:13,600 --> 00:30:16,080
Speaker 1: the cover of Time magazine and everything, and he was

611
00:30:16,080 --> 00:30:19,960
Speaker 1: this hungry, scruffy little street urchin kind of guy. Uh.

612
00:30:20,120 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: I was thought that song was eaty sedgwick. Uh. Yeah,

613
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:26,400
Speaker 1: I mean there are the references to amphetamines and pearls

614
00:30:26,440 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 1: and stuff, so that and that's very eaty. So you're right,

615
00:30:29,480 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 1: But that's it's interesting. I never thought of that line,

616
00:30:32,200 --> 00:30:34,240
Speaker 1: but that does make sense that that could be a

617
00:30:34,360 --> 00:30:38,600
Speaker 1: Joan bias not and uh and this is way in

618
00:30:38,640 --> 00:30:41,320
Speaker 1: the weeds, but and she belongs to me. Uh. He

619
00:30:41,400 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: paints his picture of a powerful, independent creative artist that

620
00:30:44,920 --> 00:30:49,760
Speaker 1: he apparently gave Joan a Egyptian ring once, and there's

621
00:30:49,800 --> 00:30:52,760
Speaker 1: the line she wears an Egyptian ring sparkles before she sleeps,

622
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:56,120
Speaker 1: and which again that's a little too that's some that's

623
00:30:56,120 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: some fans fiction right there, maybe. But I that that

624
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:01,520
Speaker 1: was always very fascinating to me. And I always like

625
00:31:01,600 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: the line she never stumbles, she's got no place to fall,

626
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:06,640
Speaker 1: and I always thought how that might sort of point

627
00:31:06,640 --> 00:31:09,400
Speaker 1: to Joan being this sort of icon of the politically

628
00:31:09,400 --> 00:31:12,000
Speaker 1: minded folk movement and she could never break from that

629
00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:15,680
Speaker 1: role without sort of losing face and losing her audience. Uh,

630
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:17,760
Speaker 1: which I don't know that again, that might just be

631
00:31:17,760 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 1: me projecting a little too much there, but I thought

632
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:22,120
Speaker 1: that was an interesting line that could also be like

633
00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:24,960
Speaker 1: a dig to oh totally you know that, yeah, that

634
00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,840
Speaker 1: she's like too pious to like ever you know, fall

635
00:31:27,880 --> 00:31:30,600
Speaker 1: from her perch of righteousness. I think of the song

636
00:31:30,760 --> 00:31:34,040
Speaker 1: Visions of Johanna being a Joan Bias song. I feel

637
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 1: like Joan Bias herself has talked about how she feels

638
00:31:37,240 --> 00:31:39,480
Speaker 1: like that songs about her, And you know, it's interesting

639
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:41,840
Speaker 1: in light of what we were just saying about that

640
00:31:42,160 --> 00:31:44,520
Speaker 1: tour of England and sixty five where you had this

641
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:48,400
Speaker 1: weird love triangle going on between Bob, Sarah and Joan,

642
00:31:48,520 --> 00:31:51,600
Speaker 1: Because if you want to say that Visions of Johanna

643
00:31:51,680 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: is about Joan Bias, there is a love triangle in

644
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:58,719
Speaker 1: that song, and essentially the ideas the protagonist of that

645
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,640
Speaker 1: song is with one Himan, but he keeps thinking about

646
00:32:01,640 --> 00:32:05,120
Speaker 1: another woman. And you know, you can look at that literally,

647
00:32:05,160 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 1: if you want to say us about Joan Bias is

648
00:32:06,960 --> 00:32:10,240
Speaker 1: that about Bob Dylan saying that he still pines for

649
00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: Joan Bias, or does Joan want to believe that's true?

650
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:15,720
Speaker 1: I mean, I tend to take a broader interpretation that

651
00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: it's really a song about feeling perpetually dissatisfied, that like

652
00:32:20,120 --> 00:32:23,680
Speaker 1: whenever you get what you want, that it doesn't sort

653
00:32:23,680 --> 00:32:26,320
Speaker 1: of quench the feeling of yearning that you always have

654
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: inside of yourself, which isn't extremely Bob Dylan sentiment. I mean,

655
00:32:31,760 --> 00:32:34,920
Speaker 1: obviously that is sort of the modus operandi of his career,

656
00:32:35,160 --> 00:32:38,400
Speaker 1: you know, like he's always kept moving, he always changes

657
00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:41,160
Speaker 1: his songs. There's never a point where he feels like

658
00:32:41,240 --> 00:32:45,160
Speaker 1: he's nailed it down perfectly, and um, it's what makes

659
00:32:45,240 --> 00:32:47,800
Speaker 1: him such a brilliant artist. I think it may also

660
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: make him an impossible person to have in your life,

661
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:55,040
Speaker 1: you know, someone who's perpetually dissatisfied. It's interesting to looking

662
00:32:55,080 --> 00:32:58,640
Speaker 1: at what Joan Bias wrote in response to Bob Dylan,

663
00:32:58,680 --> 00:33:02,160
Speaker 1: because I mean, Bias, she's that really a prolific songwriter.

664
00:33:02,240 --> 00:33:04,520
Speaker 1: I think she's known more as an interpreter of other

665
00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:07,040
Speaker 1: people's songs. That's certainly how she got her start in

666
00:33:07,080 --> 00:33:10,800
Speaker 1: her career. But She has written some songs about Bob Dylan,

667
00:33:10,960 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: like do you know the song to Bobby from seventy two.

668
00:33:14,440 --> 00:33:17,400
Speaker 1: I just love how that really just encapsulates the differences there.

669
00:33:17,440 --> 00:33:20,560
Speaker 1: You've got these incredibly visions of Johanna and then you've

670
00:33:20,560 --> 00:33:24,400
Speaker 1: got to Bobby. There's no no way to misinterpret that whatsoever.

671
00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:26,720
Speaker 1: And I love that song. She didn't say Bob Dylan,

672
00:33:26,920 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: that's true. It could it could just be any other Bobby,

673
00:33:30,040 --> 00:33:36,320
Speaker 1: you know, but yeah, exactly Bobby, Bob Barker, could be

674
00:33:36,440 --> 00:33:39,720
Speaker 1: could be a song about the prices, right, but yeah,

675
00:33:39,840 --> 00:33:42,000
Speaker 1: it does seem pretty clear that it's about Bob Dylan.

676
00:33:42,600 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: And this is like kind of her angriest song about

677
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan because she's basically going at him for his

678
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:52,120
Speaker 1: lack of political activism. Like the idea of that song,

679
00:33:52,280 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 1: she has this line in there she says you left

680
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:56,480
Speaker 1: this marching on the road and said how heavy was

681
00:33:56,520 --> 00:33:59,360
Speaker 1: the load? The years were young, the struggle barely had

682
00:33:59,400 --> 00:34:02,520
Speaker 1: its start, So the implication being that, like, you bailed

683
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:04,920
Speaker 1: dude right where we needed you. We had the civil

684
00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,600
Speaker 1: rights movement going on in the early sixties, and then

685
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:11,200
Speaker 1: you just like took off, like by sixty four and Bob,

686
00:34:11,640 --> 00:34:13,080
Speaker 1: I know, like you wrote this in the outline and

687
00:34:13,120 --> 00:34:14,640
Speaker 1: I never really thought about this, but you feel like

688
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:18,560
Speaker 1: the song wedding Song from Planet Waves is like an

689
00:34:18,600 --> 00:34:22,160
Speaker 1: answer record to to the Bias song. Yeah, I mean

690
00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:24,359
Speaker 1: I always thought, I mean, his songs could be about

691
00:34:24,360 --> 00:34:26,200
Speaker 1: twenty different things all at once. But I always thought

692
00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,239
Speaker 1: the line it's never been my duty to remake the

693
00:34:28,280 --> 00:34:30,560
Speaker 1: world at large, nor is it my intention the sound

694
00:34:30,600 --> 00:34:32,920
Speaker 1: of Battle Charge, I always thought that was sort of

695
00:34:32,960 --> 00:34:34,840
Speaker 1: his response to Bobby. It was like, you know, it

696
00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,600
Speaker 1: was not that was not what I set out to do.

697
00:34:36,920 --> 00:34:38,800
Speaker 1: That's fine if that's what you wanted to do, great,

698
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:41,120
Speaker 1: But that wasn't That wasn't who I was. That's not

699
00:34:41,200 --> 00:34:43,560
Speaker 1: why I got into doing what I do. So then

700
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:47,839
Speaker 1: Joan Baias puts her record Diamonds and Rust nineteen seventy five,

701
00:34:47,880 --> 00:34:50,759
Speaker 1: which is the Joe Baias record I know, the like

702
00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,920
Speaker 1: the best because I'm just gonna say that, Like I

703
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,920
Speaker 1: love Joan bayaz As like a figure, I love her

704
00:34:56,960 --> 00:34:59,680
Speaker 1: as an interview subject. I'm not a huge fan of

705
00:34:59,719 --> 00:35:02,480
Speaker 1: from music. Like, I don't know how you feel about

706
00:35:02,520 --> 00:35:06,200
Speaker 1: her music. I feel similarly. I definitely appreciate her more

707
00:35:06,280 --> 00:35:10,960
Speaker 1: as a political figure and as absolutely the most entertaining

708
00:35:11,000 --> 00:35:14,360
Speaker 1: part of any Bob Dylan documentary, uh and the most insightful.

709
00:35:14,560 --> 00:35:16,319
Speaker 1: But this album I like the most because it comes

710
00:35:16,320 --> 00:35:19,000
Speaker 1: from her. I feel like her interpretations of some of

711
00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 1: the older folk songs are in d gorgeous, but you

712
00:35:21,880 --> 00:35:24,360
Speaker 1: know I I do. I'm more fascinated by when it

713
00:35:24,400 --> 00:35:26,279
Speaker 1: comes from inside of her, And so this whole album is.

714
00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:28,839
Speaker 1: And she's later said that this album was really her

715
00:35:28,880 --> 00:35:31,040
Speaker 1: her peak as a writer. In Diamonds and Rust in particularly,

716
00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,200
Speaker 1: the song was one of the best she ever wrote.

717
00:35:33,280 --> 00:35:36,560
Speaker 1: And you know, it's really sparked from Bob. Yeah, that song.

718
00:35:36,640 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: And there's another song called Winds of the Old Days,

719
00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,279
Speaker 1: which seems like, you know, a pretty direct song to

720
00:35:43,320 --> 00:35:46,400
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. And both of those songs are much more

721
00:35:46,719 --> 00:35:50,839
Speaker 1: melancholy than to Bobby is it's reflecting on their relationship,

722
00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:53,560
Speaker 1: looking back on it with some affection and as well

723
00:35:53,640 --> 00:35:56,799
Speaker 1: as some regret. And I feel like Diamonds in Rust

724
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,440
Speaker 1: in particular is this song where I think she's trying

725
00:36:00,440 --> 00:36:02,080
Speaker 1: to get the upper hand in a way with her

726
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:05,160
Speaker 1: in a relationship with Bob Dylan, because essentially, at the

727
00:36:05,239 --> 00:36:10,880
Speaker 1: end of that song, she implies that the man in

728
00:36:10,960 --> 00:36:12,880
Speaker 1: the song, and again, I guess we'll just say that

729
00:36:12,920 --> 00:36:16,080
Speaker 1: there's a protagonist and an antagonist in this song, and

730
00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,320
Speaker 1: we won't necessarily say that they're Bob Dylan and Joan Bayaz,

731
00:36:19,440 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 1: but they like probably are, They're based on some version

732
00:36:22,360 --> 00:36:24,960
Speaker 1: of who they are. The implication in that song is that, like,

733
00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:27,759
Speaker 1: the man wants to get back together, and Joan is

734
00:36:27,800 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 1: the one deciding that it's not going to happen, so

735
00:36:32,640 --> 00:36:35,520
Speaker 1: it turns into this sort of victory for Joan. At

736
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,960
Speaker 1: the end of Diamonds and Rust, is that a fair

737
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:40,640
Speaker 1: interpretation of that song? She tells the story where she

738
00:36:40,680 --> 00:36:42,040
Speaker 1: was in the middle of writing a song and she

739
00:36:42,120 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: got a phone call in nine four and I guess

740
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:46,480
Speaker 1: Bob called her out of the blue from a phone

741
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,040
Speaker 1: booth in the Midwest, which is amazing, and read her

742
00:36:50,080 --> 00:36:52,040
Speaker 1: all the lyrics to a song and he'd just written

743
00:36:52,200 --> 00:36:55,000
Speaker 1: Lily Rosemary and the Jack of Hearts, which I I

744
00:36:55,400 --> 00:36:58,800
Speaker 1: interpret as a very sort of Dylanesque booty call. I suppose,

745
00:36:59,880 --> 00:37:02,239
Speaker 1: I yeah, he's flexing. He's like, I wrote this, I

746
00:37:02,239 --> 00:37:05,759
Speaker 1: wrote this bomb song and you're gonna love it and

747
00:37:05,760 --> 00:37:07,560
Speaker 1: you're gonna want to hook up man, because like I'm

748
00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:10,120
Speaker 1: I'm Bob Dylan, I'm throwing straight heat. At this time,

749
00:37:10,680 --> 00:37:13,200
Speaker 1: his marriage to Sarah was on the rocks, blowing the tracks.

750
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,440
Speaker 1: Was not far on the distance and not far in

751
00:37:15,480 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: the future. Um So Joan turns back to the song

752
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:21,000
Speaker 1: that she was writing before he called, and now it's

753
00:37:21,040 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: become about Bob, and it's this I always took it

754
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:25,920
Speaker 1: as this really bitter sweet tribute to their love affair, written,

755
00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: you know, in her words, a couple of light years afterwards.

756
00:37:28,880 --> 00:37:31,719
Speaker 1: And she's talking about this unwashed phenomenon. I love how

757
00:37:31,719 --> 00:37:34,840
Speaker 1: whenevery she refers to like nine Arab Bob is always

758
00:37:34,880 --> 00:37:39,319
Speaker 1: like unwashed, unclean, sweet urchin street urchin. Just a filth

759
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,759
Speaker 1: just a filthy man, a filthy little man, dwarfed by

760
00:37:44,800 --> 00:37:47,560
Speaker 1: his guitar. Yeah and so, and the best part was

761
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,080
Speaker 1: she she throws in a dig over there about how

762
00:37:49,120 --> 00:37:50,920
Speaker 1: she says that that Bob, or should we say the

763
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:55,040
Speaker 1: antagonist says that she writes lousy poetry, which I enjoy

764
00:37:55,160 --> 00:37:57,319
Speaker 1: that being in there too, she I, I just it's

765
00:37:57,320 --> 00:37:59,399
Speaker 1: such a gorgeous song. It's one of the best kiss

766
00:37:59,400 --> 00:38:01,200
Speaker 1: off song as I think of all time. You know,

767
00:38:01,239 --> 00:38:04,719
Speaker 1: it's classy, it's witty, and it's ruthless, you know. And

768
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:07,640
Speaker 1: and Bob, for whatever it's worth, was not shy about

769
00:38:07,680 --> 00:38:10,040
Speaker 1: saying that. You know, I think this is about me

770
00:38:10,239 --> 00:38:12,160
Speaker 1: and uh, oh man to be I think he said

771
00:38:12,200 --> 00:38:14,720
Speaker 1: this direct quote to be included in something Joni had written.

772
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,279
Speaker 1: I mean, to this day, it's still impresses me. It's

773
00:38:18,360 --> 00:38:19,960
Speaker 1: it's a nice If you're gonna be the recipient of

774
00:38:19,960 --> 00:38:21,600
Speaker 1: a song like that, you might as well be gracious

775
00:38:21,600 --> 00:38:24,000
Speaker 1: about it. I and I buy that. I feel like

776
00:38:24,040 --> 00:38:27,480
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, he's uh, you know, he's a player in

777
00:38:27,480 --> 00:38:30,600
Speaker 1: the game, man like game respects game. A good song,

778
00:38:31,040 --> 00:38:33,120
Speaker 1: he's gonna respect it, even if it's about him. And

779
00:38:33,160 --> 00:38:35,200
Speaker 1: if on some level, you know, I don't know if

780
00:38:35,200 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 1: that song embarrassed him, or if it hurt him or anything,

781
00:38:37,800 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 1: but it didn't seem to, you know, spark any animus

782
00:38:41,480 --> 00:38:43,839
Speaker 1: in him towards Joan at all. One thing I really

783
00:38:43,880 --> 00:38:45,960
Speaker 1: like about Demons and rust Like, even more than the

784
00:38:45,960 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: tail track, is that Joan Baiaz covers simple twist of

785
00:38:50,080 --> 00:38:53,560
Speaker 1: fate from Blood on the tracks on that record, and

786
00:38:53,760 --> 00:38:56,759
Speaker 1: on one of the verses she slips into like this,

787
00:38:56,840 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: weird Bob Dylan impression. It's like impression, it's it's like

788
00:39:01,960 --> 00:39:05,359
Speaker 1: the arrangement of that song. It's really weird anyway, because

789
00:39:05,520 --> 00:39:07,799
Speaker 1: you think of the original simple twist of Fate and

790
00:39:07,840 --> 00:39:12,439
Speaker 1: it's this downtrodden romantic acoustic song where Dylan's is porn

791
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,360
Speaker 1: his heart out, and like the Joan Bias version is

792
00:39:15,400 --> 00:39:18,560
Speaker 1: this like upbeat, like very mid seventies l a rock

793
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,319
Speaker 1: like redo, Like it sounds like an Eagle song when

794
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:25,439
Speaker 1: she does it, and and but then she slips into

795
00:39:25,440 --> 00:39:28,160
Speaker 1: this like kind of perverse Dylan impression in the middle,

796
00:39:28,160 --> 00:39:29,360
Speaker 1: and I'm like, I kind of wish he did the

797
00:39:29,400 --> 00:39:32,279
Speaker 1: whole song like that because it would have like registered

798
00:39:32,320 --> 00:39:35,520
Speaker 1: more as like a dig on him maybe, or like, Yeah,

799
00:39:35,560 --> 00:39:38,279
Speaker 1: you wrote this song about the woman that you left

800
00:39:38,320 --> 00:39:40,160
Speaker 1: me for, and now I'm going to play it on

801
00:39:40,200 --> 00:39:42,359
Speaker 1: my record and kind of make fun of it by

802
00:39:42,520 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: doing this voice, you know exactly, I'm gonna kind of

803
00:39:46,520 --> 00:39:48,400
Speaker 1: suck the soul out of it. I'm gonna make it

804
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:52,400
Speaker 1: sound like life in the fast Lane. Uh. But again,

805
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,920
Speaker 1: like it doesn't see my Bob doing't minded that either,

806
00:39:55,000 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 1: because he ended up inviting Joan Bias to be on

807
00:39:58,719 --> 00:40:00,759
Speaker 1: the Rolling Thunder tour, which I think it's like my

808
00:40:00,840 --> 00:40:04,360
Speaker 1: favorite Bob Dylan tour, Like I love this era and

809
00:40:04,440 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: Joan Baiaz was like a huge part of that tour.

810
00:40:06,840 --> 00:40:08,840
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, my favorite part of this entire tour is

811
00:40:08,880 --> 00:40:11,919
Speaker 1: apparently Bob asked her if are you gonna play that song,

812
00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:13,880
Speaker 1: you know, the song about the blue eyes and diamonds

813
00:40:13,880 --> 00:40:16,400
Speaker 1: obviously diamonds and rust, and she played dumb was like,

814
00:40:16,400 --> 00:40:19,240
Speaker 1: oh yeah, that old thing I wrote for my ex husband. Sure,

815
00:40:19,360 --> 00:40:22,000
Speaker 1: And you can just imagine Bob's face kind of falling

816
00:40:22,040 --> 00:40:24,400
Speaker 1: and be like, well, ex ex husband, that was for

817
00:40:24,440 --> 00:40:26,160
Speaker 1: your that was for your husband. And Joe was just

818
00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:28,399
Speaker 1: very sweetly was like, yeah, yeah, who do you think

819
00:40:28,440 --> 00:40:32,680
Speaker 1: it was about? I really I like that a lot. Yeah.

820
00:40:32,719 --> 00:40:35,680
Speaker 1: I mean, look again, it's Bob Dylan. He must have

821
00:40:35,719 --> 00:40:39,000
Speaker 1: appreciated on some level, like someone throwing his own bullshit

822
00:40:39,080 --> 00:40:41,640
Speaker 1: back in his face, like she's not gonna admit it,

823
00:40:41,719 --> 00:40:43,759
Speaker 1: like you would never admit it if it was the

824
00:40:43,760 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 1: other way around. I mean, like Bob Dylan wrote a

825
00:40:45,480 --> 00:40:48,480
Speaker 1: song called Sarah about his wife, and like he kind

826
00:40:48,480 --> 00:40:51,600
Speaker 1: of backed off from that, like really kind of explaining

827
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,399
Speaker 1: the meaning behind that song whenever people would press him

828
00:40:54,400 --> 00:40:56,719
Speaker 1: about it years later, so I mean he's done the

829
00:40:56,760 --> 00:40:59,719
Speaker 1: same thing obviously in his own songs. You saw that

830
00:40:59,800 --> 00:41:02,920
Speaker 1: one Scorsese documentary, right the Rolling Thunder review I was

831
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,640
Speaker 1: on Netflix went up in twenty nineteen. I'm a big

832
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,480
Speaker 1: fan of that movie. One of the great things about

833
00:41:07,520 --> 00:41:09,360
Speaker 1: that movie is that it uses a lot of footage

834
00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:13,799
Speaker 1: from a movie that Bob Dylan directed called Ronaldo and

835
00:41:13,800 --> 00:41:17,360
Speaker 1: Clara that came out in eight and like you can't

836
00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,200
Speaker 1: find it anywhere because I don't know if like Bob

837
00:41:20,239 --> 00:41:23,320
Speaker 1: Dylan's embarrassed by this movie. I mean, it was really panned.

838
00:41:23,360 --> 00:41:25,839
Speaker 1: It was like a four hour movie. There were like

839
00:41:26,080 --> 00:41:28,600
Speaker 1: concert clips in that. But there's also like like an

840
00:41:28,640 --> 00:41:32,280
Speaker 1: improvised story in it, and like it's basically about Dylan,

841
00:41:32,440 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: Sarah and Joan or like the three main characters in it.

842
00:41:35,560 --> 00:41:37,840
Speaker 1: Like I own a bootle copy of Ronaldo and Clara

843
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:40,480
Speaker 1: and I've never gotten through it because it's like really

844
00:41:40,520 --> 00:41:44,800
Speaker 1: slow and impenetrable. I mean my copy also looks pretty bad.

845
00:41:45,000 --> 00:41:47,640
Speaker 1: Like have you seen Ronaldo and Clara at all? I

846
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,040
Speaker 1: I tried to watch some of it, and I I

847
00:41:50,080 --> 00:41:52,400
Speaker 1: it was unwatchable for me. I just couldn't like I

848
00:41:52,440 --> 00:41:54,560
Speaker 1: found like a really scratchy maybe it was the same

849
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:57,840
Speaker 1: copy of yours on online, and yeah, it just was

850
00:41:57,880 --> 00:42:00,560
Speaker 1: too I mean, and he directed that, right, Yeah, he

851
00:42:00,640 --> 00:42:03,200
Speaker 1: directed it, and like it's pretty pretentious, it's pretty hard

852
00:42:03,239 --> 00:42:05,400
Speaker 1: to watch, but like there's a lot of great footage

853
00:42:05,600 --> 00:42:08,279
Speaker 1: that was shot during that time, and Scorsese was able

854
00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:10,040
Speaker 1: to take a lot of that footage and turn it

855
00:42:10,040 --> 00:42:13,319
Speaker 1: into like his own sort of wacky meta movie that

856
00:42:13,360 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 1: came out in And for me, like the most riveting

857
00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 1: scene in that movie is between Bob Dylan and Joan Bias.

858
00:42:20,040 --> 00:42:21,600
Speaker 1: And I don't know if you remember this scene, but

859
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:25,040
Speaker 1: like they're talking about their relationship in the past, and

860
00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:28,000
Speaker 1: it's not clear. I mean, for one thing, I'm sure

861
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:30,600
Speaker 1: that this scene is staged, because there's no way that

862
00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 1: the camera just happened to come upon Dylan and Joan

863
00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,640
Speaker 1: having this intimate conversation. I think there's like actually two

864
00:42:36,640 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: cameras like shooting both of them, so it's obviously staged,

865
00:42:40,400 --> 00:42:43,600
Speaker 1: but it seems like it's also based on some truth

866
00:42:44,239 --> 00:42:46,200
Speaker 1: when you watch it, Like, I don't know if you

867
00:42:46,200 --> 00:42:47,680
Speaker 1: have a read on this at all. I mean, there's

868
00:42:48,000 --> 00:42:50,000
Speaker 1: the dialogue in the scene is incredible like he says,

869
00:42:50,160 --> 00:42:52,640
Speaker 1: you got married without telling me, and then she says

870
00:42:53,040 --> 00:42:55,839
Speaker 1: you got married without telling me? And then Dylan says,

871
00:42:56,000 --> 00:42:58,160
Speaker 1: I married the woman I love, and then Jones says

872
00:42:58,760 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 1: I married the man I thought I loved. And then

873
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,000
Speaker 1: there's like a really long pause and I'm like and

874
00:43:04,040 --> 00:43:06,239
Speaker 1: then he goes full Dylan. That's when he does it

875
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:08,239
Speaker 1: like you thought, you see the thought that's why I'll

876
00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:10,480
Speaker 1: mess you up. Yeah, he says that thought will mess

877
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:12,560
Speaker 1: you up. But like and he kind of like digs

878
00:43:12,560 --> 00:43:14,600
Speaker 1: into a little bit. But like when I watched that scene,

879
00:43:14,640 --> 00:43:16,640
Speaker 1: I was like, are they going to start boning here?

880
00:43:16,840 --> 00:43:21,440
Speaker 1: Like it is like electric when you watch it and

881
00:43:21,480 --> 00:43:23,920
Speaker 1: they're giving each other these like sort of like googly

882
00:43:24,000 --> 00:43:27,520
Speaker 1: I you know, come hither looks. It's like pretty steamy

883
00:43:28,280 --> 00:43:30,759
Speaker 1: in the in the Steedy and Lindsay analogy, this is

884
00:43:30,840 --> 00:43:33,960
Speaker 1: silver Springs on the on the dance, This is the

885
00:43:34,680 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: but like with more affection. I feel like silver Springs

886
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,839
Speaker 1: is like hatred. I don't feel hatred here. I feel like,

887
00:43:40,040 --> 00:43:41,960
Speaker 1: are we getting it on here? Do we want to

888
00:43:41,960 --> 00:43:43,320
Speaker 1: get it on? It's like should we get these camera

889
00:43:43,320 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: crew rut of here so we can have sex like

890
00:43:45,640 --> 00:43:47,680
Speaker 1: on this bar right now. I mean, that's the vibe

891
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:51,040
Speaker 1: I get from that scene, and it feels like that

892
00:43:51,280 --> 00:43:54,799
Speaker 1: electricity really bounced through like a lot of the performances

893
00:43:54,800 --> 00:43:56,880
Speaker 1: that they had together on that tour, like their duets

894
00:43:56,880 --> 00:43:59,880
Speaker 1: are like really sexy and like really playful and fun.

895
00:44:00,200 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: Oh there's that great one in I think it was

896
00:44:02,040 --> 00:44:05,319
Speaker 1: in Boston in November seventy when Joan and Bob are

897
00:44:05,400 --> 00:44:06,839
Speaker 1: up there the mic they're about to do I Shall

898
00:44:06,880 --> 00:44:09,279
Speaker 1: Be Released, and someone in the crowd screams, what a

899
00:44:09,360 --> 00:44:12,600
Speaker 1: lovely couple, and Bob just wants wants to die. He

900
00:44:12,600 --> 00:44:15,200
Speaker 1: wants to disappear into the floorboards. He doesn't respond to

901
00:44:15,239 --> 00:44:17,400
Speaker 1: the fan, he can't look at Joan or the crowd.

902
00:44:17,640 --> 00:44:20,440
Speaker 1: He just wants to disappear. Jones saves the day by

903
00:44:20,560 --> 00:44:23,320
Speaker 1: just laughing, don't make myths, couple a couple of what,

904
00:44:23,920 --> 00:44:25,960
Speaker 1: and she puts her hand on Don's neck and they

905
00:44:26,000 --> 00:44:28,720
Speaker 1: start to do this incredible version I Shall Be Released.

906
00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:31,680
Speaker 1: It's beautiful. But then there's this weird thing that happens

907
00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:36,040
Speaker 1: where there's the song oh Sister that Bob Dylan writes

908
00:44:36,120 --> 00:44:40,200
Speaker 1: for the album Desire, And I mean, isn't there like

909
00:44:40,280 --> 00:44:42,560
Speaker 1: a thing like where Joan Bias thought that that was

910
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:44,959
Speaker 1: about her, Like there's a line in there where he says,

911
00:44:45,239 --> 00:44:47,040
Speaker 1: oh sister, when I come to line in your arms,

912
00:44:47,080 --> 00:44:48,959
Speaker 1: you should not treat me like a stranger or sister?

913
00:44:49,080 --> 00:44:51,160
Speaker 1: Am I not a brother to you? In one deserving

914
00:44:51,160 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 1: of affection? This idea that like he maybe turned to

915
00:44:54,560 --> 00:44:57,560
Speaker 1: her at a time of need, and she like turned

916
00:44:57,600 --> 00:44:59,680
Speaker 1: him away, and she kind of took it like did

917
00:44:59,800 --> 00:45:01,400
Speaker 1: she take it that way? And then she wrote her

918
00:45:01,440 --> 00:45:04,880
Speaker 1: own song in response to that, well, she wrote in

919
00:45:05,000 --> 00:45:08,680
Speaker 1: response to his song, oh Sister, she wrote, oh brother again, Yeah,

920
00:45:08,719 --> 00:45:10,759
Speaker 1: oh sister, I always I always took to be at

921
00:45:10,840 --> 00:45:13,000
Speaker 1: least about how she kind of rebuffed him when he

922
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:15,239
Speaker 1: called that nine in nine seventy four, and she she

923
00:45:15,320 --> 00:45:17,960
Speaker 1: turned around and wrote with domes and rust, Oh brother,

924
00:45:18,600 --> 00:45:23,080
Speaker 1: um is very to the point. This is on is

925
00:45:23,120 --> 00:45:26,240
Speaker 1: golf wins and it's not oh brother in the biblical

926
00:45:26,320 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 1: sense like oh Sister was very biblical. This is like

927
00:45:28,719 --> 00:45:31,560
Speaker 1: in the Peanuts gang, like, oh brother, this guy again,

928
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:36,320
Speaker 1: Uh great lines You've done dirt to lifelong friends with

929
00:45:36,520 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 1: little or no excuses. Who endowed you with the crown

930
00:45:39,880 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 1: to hand out these abuses? Your lady knows about these things,

931
00:45:44,000 --> 00:45:46,680
Speaker 1: but they don't put her under me. I know about

932
00:45:46,719 --> 00:45:50,759
Speaker 1: them too, and I react like thunder, I don't know.

933
00:45:50,840 --> 00:45:54,200
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go. And then there's that

934
00:45:54,320 --> 00:45:56,960
Speaker 1: line like where she says, uh, because when you hurl

935
00:45:57,040 --> 00:45:59,839
Speaker 1: that bowie knife, it's going to be when my back

936
00:46:00,120 --> 00:46:02,960
Speaker 1: turned doing some little deed for you and baby while

937
00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:07,240
Speaker 1: I get burned. So again this idea that like, oh, Bobby,

938
00:46:07,239 --> 00:46:10,360
Speaker 1: you're like a shitty friend essentially, And it seems like

939
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:12,560
Speaker 1: that was the state of the relationship for like a

940
00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: long time, that they were had this sort of icy

941
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:19,560
Speaker 1: standoffice thing. And again, if we want to speculate on

942
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:21,920
Speaker 1: like you know, was this driven in a way by

943
00:46:22,000 --> 00:46:24,760
Speaker 1: like a second breakup in the mid seventies, It seems

944
00:46:24,840 --> 00:46:27,200
Speaker 1: like that's never been fully spelled out, like if they

945
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:29,680
Speaker 1: actually hooked up again, or if there was just this

946
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:33,680
Speaker 1: weird sexual tension that was never acted upon. But because

947
00:46:33,719 --> 00:46:36,280
Speaker 1: she only had good memories of the of the Rolling Thundertour,

948
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,120
Speaker 1: right she said, at least for like the first year,

949
00:46:38,280 --> 00:46:40,479
Speaker 1: she said it was great, So yeah, yeah, it seems

950
00:46:40,520 --> 00:46:42,600
Speaker 1: it was positive. But then like in the aftermath, like

951
00:46:42,680 --> 00:46:46,040
Speaker 1: there was a long chilly period between both of them

952
00:46:46,120 --> 00:46:49,440
Speaker 1: and one story I love and it's a very creepy story,

953
00:46:49,560 --> 00:46:53,160
Speaker 1: but it's from because there was this tour that Bob

954
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 1: Dylan was doing in Europe with Santana, and Joan Bias

955
00:46:58,719 --> 00:47:01,080
Speaker 1: joined this tour, and I think her belief at the

956
00:47:01,160 --> 00:47:03,239
Speaker 1: time was that this was going to be essentially like

957
00:47:03,440 --> 00:47:07,279
Speaker 1: a three bill co headlining tour, where in reality she

958
00:47:07,440 --> 00:47:10,480
Speaker 1: was being brought on as an opening act essentially. So

959
00:47:11,160 --> 00:47:14,080
Speaker 1: once Joan Bayaz realized that she was very unhappy, and

960
00:47:14,280 --> 00:47:16,640
Speaker 1: she writes about this in her memoir in a Voice

961
00:47:16,680 --> 00:47:20,040
Speaker 1: to Sing, and she tells the story about how I

962
00:47:20,160 --> 00:47:23,040
Speaker 1: hate the story so much. There was it was kind

963
00:47:23,040 --> 00:47:25,440
Speaker 1: of a repeat of what happened like twenty years earlier,

964
00:47:25,520 --> 00:47:27,759
Speaker 1: like when you know, she was hoping that like Bob

965
00:47:27,840 --> 00:47:30,759
Speaker 1: would bring her up to sing together, and like I

966
00:47:30,840 --> 00:47:33,200
Speaker 1: think he did a couple of times, but for the

967
00:47:33,280 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: most part not really. You know, he was doing his

968
00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:40,000
Speaker 1: own thing and they're playing these stadiums and it's not

969
00:47:40,200 --> 00:47:42,400
Speaker 1: really a great situation for Joan baias, so like she

970
00:47:42,520 --> 00:47:45,120
Speaker 1: finally decides that she's going to quit and she goes

971
00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:48,640
Speaker 1: backstage to say goodbye to Bob, and Bob, I guess

972
00:47:48,719 --> 00:47:53,080
Speaker 1: he's just like looking disheveled and sweaty and not in

973
00:47:53,160 --> 00:47:55,360
Speaker 1: good shape. And I'm you know, I think it's pretty

974
00:47:55,360 --> 00:47:58,080
Speaker 1: well documented that at this time Bob Dylan, you know,

975
00:47:58,239 --> 00:48:00,800
Speaker 1: was I think drinking a lot. I think he's probably

976
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:02,920
Speaker 1: taking a lot of drugs at this time, Like he

977
00:48:03,000 --> 00:48:05,080
Speaker 1: was not in good shape. This is like about four

978
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:08,800
Speaker 1: years before he went on the Never Ending Tour and

979
00:48:09,000 --> 00:48:10,920
Speaker 1: like really started to kind of clean himself up and

980
00:48:10,960 --> 00:48:14,120
Speaker 1: pull himself together and and become the artist that he's

981
00:48:14,160 --> 00:48:16,040
Speaker 1: been like in the last thirty years. I mean, this

982
00:48:16,200 --> 00:48:19,359
Speaker 1: was like a low point for Bob Dylan. And Joan

983
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:22,160
Speaker 1: is like, I'm I'm taking off Bob. And she's wearing

984
00:48:22,200 --> 00:48:25,799
Speaker 1: a skirt and Bob Dylan like puts his hand up

985
00:48:25,880 --> 00:48:29,440
Speaker 1: her skirt like and rub it, just like brings his

986
00:48:29,560 --> 00:48:33,960
Speaker 1: hand up her leg, up her thigh, and he says, like, hey,

987
00:48:34,080 --> 00:48:37,080
Speaker 1: you you have great legs, Like how why are your

988
00:48:37,160 --> 00:48:40,480
Speaker 1: legs so good? She's like, because I rehearse, Bob, I

989
00:48:40,880 --> 00:48:42,719
Speaker 1: stand up a lot when I rehearse, and like she

990
00:48:42,880 --> 00:48:45,400
Speaker 1: takes his hand and puts it on his chest and

991
00:48:45,480 --> 00:48:49,240
Speaker 1: I think kisses him on his like sweaty bloated forehead

992
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:55,360
Speaker 1: and leaves the oh Man it seems like for like

993
00:48:55,440 --> 00:48:57,520
Speaker 1: the next like say, maybe even like twenty five years

994
00:48:58,239 --> 00:49:01,640
Speaker 1: after that, it's like it's pretty cold between them. Oh yeah,

995
00:49:01,640 --> 00:49:03,560
Speaker 1: I mean she she tells the story in her memoir

996
00:49:03,920 --> 00:49:07,719
Speaker 1: in n and Uh. I guess someone asked her about, like,

997
00:49:07,800 --> 00:49:11,040
Speaker 1: you know, did Bob respond to this story in your book? Because,

998
00:49:11,080 --> 00:49:14,040
Speaker 1: I mean the book it paints a sort of warts

999
00:49:14,080 --> 00:49:16,880
Speaker 1: and all portrait of Bob. I mean, it's not very flattering,

1000
00:49:16,960 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: but obviously she she pays tribute to his incredible artistry,

1001
00:49:20,160 --> 00:49:21,839
Speaker 1: but it's not the most flattering thing in the world.

1002
00:49:22,360 --> 00:49:24,799
Speaker 1: And she told the interviewer, Yeah, no, I never heard

1003
00:49:24,840 --> 00:49:26,920
Speaker 1: from about that, but you know what, what that's to

1004
00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,279
Speaker 1: be expected. I put out two full covers albums of

1005
00:49:29,360 --> 00:49:31,320
Speaker 1: his songs and he never responded to those either, so

1006
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,279
Speaker 1: you know, go figure. Um. My favorite part of the

1007
00:49:34,320 --> 00:49:36,000
Speaker 1: book is when she says that he wrote Masters of

1008
00:49:36,080 --> 00:49:38,600
Speaker 1: War as a cash grab. According to her, Bob said,

1009
00:49:38,600 --> 00:49:40,400
Speaker 1: you know, when I dropped dead, people are going to

1010
00:49:40,440 --> 00:49:42,640
Speaker 1: interpret the ship out of my songs. They're gonna interpret

1011
00:49:42,719 --> 00:49:45,239
Speaker 1: every comma. They don't know what the songs mean. Ship,

1012
00:49:45,520 --> 00:49:48,440
Speaker 1: I don't know what they mean. So very looks the

1013
00:49:48,520 --> 00:49:51,919
Speaker 1: veil on the whole Dylan mythology, I think in her memoir, Yeah,

1014
00:49:52,360 --> 00:49:54,719
Speaker 1: I don't doubt that he said that. I feel like

1015
00:49:54,760 --> 00:49:57,839
Speaker 1: he has said as much in interviews over the years

1016
00:49:58,040 --> 00:50:01,759
Speaker 1: that he is very a verse to like analyzing his

1017
00:50:01,840 --> 00:50:05,000
Speaker 1: own work, and he'll let other people do that. But

1018
00:50:05,120 --> 00:50:08,000
Speaker 1: I think he's very reluctant to like say what his

1019
00:50:08,080 --> 00:50:11,520
Speaker 1: song is mean, or to like put any kind of

1020
00:50:11,640 --> 00:50:14,400
Speaker 1: importance on them, although at the same time, he's not

1021
00:50:14,640 --> 00:50:17,080
Speaker 1: a humble person either, like he will talk about how

1022
00:50:17,120 --> 00:50:19,200
Speaker 1: great of a songwriter he is and how there's no

1023
00:50:19,239 --> 00:50:21,800
Speaker 1: one better than him. So it is this combination of

1024
00:50:21,920 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 1: like not wanting to help out anyone who wants to

1025
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,480
Speaker 1: understand his songs, but also feeling like that like, yeah,

1026
00:50:27,520 --> 00:50:30,520
Speaker 1: I'm the ship. I'm the ship, but you don't understand

1027
00:50:30,600 --> 00:50:33,080
Speaker 1: it and I don't understand it and it doesn't matter. Um.

1028
00:50:33,440 --> 00:50:35,480
Speaker 1: I do think that, Like one of the things that

1029
00:50:35,640 --> 00:50:37,600
Speaker 1: has come out of all the documentaries that have been

1030
00:50:37,640 --> 00:50:40,680
Speaker 1: made about Bob Dylan has been like Bob and Jon

1031
00:50:40,800 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: being able to communicate to each other, like through those movies. Um.

1032
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:48,600
Speaker 1: Like I think about In No Direction Home, where I

1033
00:50:48,680 --> 00:50:51,640
Speaker 1: feel like there's a lot of of affection that they

1034
00:50:51,760 --> 00:50:54,520
Speaker 1: express for each other. You know, they're never on screen

1035
00:50:54,560 --> 00:50:57,680
Speaker 1: at the same time. But um, there's that thing I

1036
00:50:57,719 --> 00:51:00,920
Speaker 1: said before about how Bob Dylan's trying to plane way

1037
00:51:01,040 --> 00:51:04,080
Speaker 1: why he acted the way he did, like on that tour,

1038
00:51:04,400 --> 00:51:07,160
Speaker 1: and he doesn't say like I'm sorry in that movie,

1039
00:51:07,239 --> 00:51:10,040
Speaker 1: but I think it's it's heavily suggested that he feels

1040
00:51:10,080 --> 00:51:13,160
Speaker 1: bad for what happened. And he has that line that

1041
00:51:13,239 --> 00:51:15,120
Speaker 1: I mentioned before about how he says, you know, it's

1042
00:51:15,120 --> 00:51:17,040
Speaker 1: hard to be wise and in love at the same time.

1043
00:51:17,760 --> 00:51:20,560
Speaker 1: And then Joan for her, you know, on on her side,

1044
00:51:20,719 --> 00:51:23,640
Speaker 1: I feel like she speaks more eloquently than anyone about

1045
00:51:23,719 --> 00:51:26,360
Speaker 1: like why Bob Dylan is a great artist, and she

1046
00:51:26,440 --> 00:51:28,680
Speaker 1: has a great line about how, you know, there's people

1047
00:51:28,680 --> 00:51:30,680
Speaker 1: in the world who don't care about Bob Dylan at all,

1048
00:51:30,760 --> 00:51:33,200
Speaker 1: and they hear are songs and they don't care. And

1049
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:36,440
Speaker 1: she says, but if you are interested, you know, no

1050
00:51:36,560 --> 00:51:39,800
Speaker 1: one reaches down deeper than Bob Dylan. And I always

1051
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:42,360
Speaker 1: think about that because I think that's so true, and

1052
00:51:42,520 --> 00:51:46,239
Speaker 1: I think it's spoken by someone who did have this

1053
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 1: personal relationship with Bob Dylan, but also at the end

1054
00:51:48,719 --> 00:51:50,520
Speaker 1: of the day, is like one of his biggest fans,

1055
00:51:50,840 --> 00:51:52,960
Speaker 1: you know, like she can articulate that point of view

1056
00:51:53,000 --> 00:51:55,920
Speaker 1: because she's like the rest of us who love his work. Um,

1057
00:51:56,160 --> 00:51:58,600
Speaker 1: and as close as she got to him and got

1058
00:51:58,680 --> 00:52:01,040
Speaker 1: to know him, you know, he's as much of a

1059
00:52:01,120 --> 00:52:03,759
Speaker 1: mystery to her in many ways as he is to

1060
00:52:03,800 --> 00:52:06,040
Speaker 1: the rest of us. Yeah, I mean, I always liked

1061
00:52:06,080 --> 00:52:08,759
Speaker 1: the thought that until she stopped touring in and she

1062
00:52:08,880 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 1: sang something like half a dozen dealon songs and concert

1063
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:14,200
Speaker 1: and she would introduce Diamonds and Russ by describing Bob

1064
00:52:14,280 --> 00:52:17,600
Speaker 1: as by far the most talented and crazy person I've

1065
00:52:17,640 --> 00:52:20,360
Speaker 1: ever worked with, which is it's beautiful. You know, there

1066
00:52:20,440 --> 00:52:22,160
Speaker 1: was an interview she gave recently where she said she

1067
00:52:22,239 --> 00:52:24,920
Speaker 1: was she was painting one day and put Bob's at

1068
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,840
Speaker 1: one of Bob's albums on and just started crying and

1069
00:52:27,960 --> 00:52:31,439
Speaker 1: just said, you know, good lord, I know this guy.

1070
00:52:31,760 --> 00:52:34,160
Speaker 1: I got to sing with this guy. And so at

1071
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:36,120
Speaker 1: that moment, any of like the bullshit between the two

1072
00:52:36,239 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 1: just sort of evaporated. And you know, as you said earlier,

1073
00:52:40,200 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 1: there was really the end of the day, everything is forgiven.

1074
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:45,320
Speaker 1: When I see Bobby sing, I think that's probably the

1075
00:52:45,960 --> 00:52:50,120
Speaker 1: most perfect absolption that she could give for him. See

1076
00:52:50,200 --> 00:52:52,719
Speaker 1: and again, like, it's so nice to me that with

1077
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,960
Speaker 1: all the ups and downs that in this version of

1078
00:52:56,160 --> 00:53:01,360
Speaker 1: the Stars Born story, uh none like hanging themselves, you know,

1079
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:04,080
Speaker 1: it's like spoiler, it seems like they came to some

1080
00:53:04,200 --> 00:53:07,279
Speaker 1: moment of reconciliation, which is really great. We're gonna take

1081
00:53:07,280 --> 00:53:09,120
Speaker 1: a quick break and get a word from our sponsor

1082
00:53:09,200 --> 00:53:21,520
Speaker 1: before we get to more rivals. So this is the

1083
00:53:21,560 --> 00:53:23,239
Speaker 1: part of the episode where we talk about the pro

1084
00:53:23,400 --> 00:53:28,120
Speaker 1: sides for each part of the rivalry and with Joan Bayaz,

1085
00:53:28,200 --> 00:53:31,160
Speaker 1: I think you and I have both said this before now,

1086
00:53:31,320 --> 00:53:34,560
Speaker 1: but like on a personal level, it seems like she

1087
00:53:35,160 --> 00:53:39,000
Speaker 1: was a very decent person to Bob. She genuinely loved him,

1088
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:42,920
Speaker 1: genuinely admired his his talent, and at a moment in

1089
00:53:43,000 --> 00:53:46,200
Speaker 1: her career where she was a huge star, she worked

1090
00:53:46,239 --> 00:53:49,319
Speaker 1: really hard to give this guy a platform. And I mean,

1091
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:51,680
Speaker 1: I think maybe Bob Dylan want to become a star

1092
00:53:51,760 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 1: anyway even without her, But I don't think there's any

1093
00:53:54,800 --> 00:53:58,200
Speaker 1: question that like she expedited his his rise to start

1094
00:53:58,280 --> 00:54:00,960
Speaker 1: them and like he wouldn't have the rear that he

1095
00:54:01,040 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 1: did in the sixties without her. Oh yeah, I mean

1096
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: It's really fascinating. I think what would have happened if

1097
00:54:05,160 --> 00:54:06,760
Speaker 1: he would would have been just like, you know, another

1098
00:54:06,840 --> 00:54:09,359
Speaker 1: Dave van Ronk or something like that, if it hadn't

1099
00:54:09,400 --> 00:54:12,000
Speaker 1: been for her, who was such a major start to

1100
00:54:12,200 --> 00:54:15,800
Speaker 1: to give him this massive audience. I do feel very sad,

1101
00:54:16,040 --> 00:54:19,400
Speaker 1: and I understand why it happens that any profile of

1102
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,520
Speaker 1: Joane will inevitably include a reference to Dylan. But I

1103
00:54:22,600 --> 00:54:25,640
Speaker 1: don't think the inverse is ever true, even though she

1104
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,200
Speaker 1: had a much bigger impact on his career than he

1105
00:54:28,280 --> 00:54:32,200
Speaker 1: did on hers. And I mean chalk it up to

1106
00:54:32,480 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: just he's gargantean role in popular culture, sexism, her own

1107
00:54:36,600 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 1: frankness on the subject of lyrics and interviews. Whenever she

1108
00:54:39,200 --> 00:54:40,600
Speaker 1: was singing about him, she kind of let you know

1109
00:54:40,680 --> 00:54:42,920
Speaker 1: it all the above. I don't know, but that always

1110
00:54:43,000 --> 00:54:45,279
Speaker 1: that always kind of stuck in my crawl a little bit. Yeah,

1111
00:54:45,320 --> 00:54:48,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I think it's Bob Dylan, you know. I

1112
00:54:48,640 --> 00:54:51,160
Speaker 1: think that there are so many people that are in

1113
00:54:51,360 --> 00:54:53,879
Speaker 1: his orbit that just gets sucked in, you know, even

1114
00:54:54,000 --> 00:54:55,920
Speaker 1: like you know, we talked about the band in a

1115
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:58,400
Speaker 1: previous episode. I don't think the band would have the

1116
00:54:58,440 --> 00:55:00,719
Speaker 1: statue that they have if they hadn't been associated with

1117
00:55:00,800 --> 00:55:03,400
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan, you know, like they put out great records

1118
00:55:03,440 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: on their own, but like their legend before Music from

1119
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 1: Big Pink was created in launch part because they were

1120
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:12,960
Speaker 1: the backing band for Bob Dylan on that historic nineteen

1121
00:55:13,000 --> 00:55:15,040
Speaker 1: sixty six tour, and that they were the band that

1122
00:55:15,320 --> 00:55:17,919
Speaker 1: made the basement tapes with him, like which I guess

1123
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:19,480
Speaker 1: at that time would have been known as the Great

1124
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:23,520
Speaker 1: White Wonder the bootleg recordings. But like just being in

1125
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 1: his orbit, especially at that time in the sixties, it

1126
00:55:26,480 --> 00:55:29,840
Speaker 1: just is going to overwhelm anyone who's next to it.

1127
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:32,800
Speaker 1: I will say that I think that Joan Baia's ultimately

1128
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,880
Speaker 1: does benefit from her association with Bob Dylan, you know,

1129
00:55:36,000 --> 00:55:38,839
Speaker 1: as much as we talked about how she helped him

1130
00:55:39,719 --> 00:55:42,880
Speaker 1: at a pivotal point in his career, I think it's

1131
00:55:42,880 --> 00:55:44,400
Speaker 1: also fair to say that, like a lot of the

1132
00:55:44,480 --> 00:55:47,839
Speaker 1: interest that people have today in Joan Baias is due

1133
00:55:47,880 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: to the fact that she did have this association with

1134
00:55:50,080 --> 00:55:54,200
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan at a very momentous time in music history

1135
00:55:54,600 --> 00:55:57,680
Speaker 1: and cultural history. I think without that, you know, we

1136
00:55:57,880 --> 00:56:00,960
Speaker 1: might think of Joan Baias more like Judy Collins or

1137
00:56:01,000 --> 00:56:04,200
Speaker 1: like a Buffy St. Marie, like other female folk singers

1138
00:56:04,239 --> 00:56:06,600
Speaker 1: of the sixties who are really great, but they don't

1139
00:56:06,640 --> 00:56:10,440
Speaker 1: have the same I think name recognition that Joan Bias

1140
00:56:10,520 --> 00:56:12,719
Speaker 1: has not just because she was associated with Dylan, but

1141
00:56:12,760 --> 00:56:14,920
Speaker 1: also because she was so strong. She's such a strong

1142
00:56:15,040 --> 00:56:18,200
Speaker 1: foil and gave it back to him, like especially after

1143
00:56:18,280 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 1: the fact in her songs and in documentaries and again,

1144
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,919
Speaker 1: like she's like my favorite person to see talk about

1145
00:56:24,920 --> 00:56:28,000
Speaker 1: Bob Dylan. I mean, she's so articulate about it. She's

1146
00:56:28,000 --> 00:56:31,880
Speaker 1: also like really candid, like she she doesn't just blindly

1147
00:56:32,000 --> 00:56:34,799
Speaker 1: revere him, like she will take him down to peg

1148
00:56:35,040 --> 00:56:37,960
Speaker 1: in a very sort of smart and I think justified way.

1149
00:56:38,400 --> 00:56:41,200
Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that association has definitely helped her

1150
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:43,000
Speaker 1: over the years. When we go to the pro Bob

1151
00:56:43,120 --> 00:56:47,399
Speaker 1: Dylan side, I mean, is this like I mean, look,

1152
00:56:48,280 --> 00:56:50,080
Speaker 1: I think we both have made clear that like he

1153
00:56:50,360 --> 00:56:54,040
Speaker 1: was a jerk in n and like you can watch

1154
00:56:54,120 --> 00:56:56,920
Speaker 1: Don't Look Back, and it's pretty clear that he's acting

1155
00:56:57,000 --> 00:57:00,080
Speaker 1: like a jerk in that movie. But then you as

1156
00:57:00,120 --> 00:57:03,680
Speaker 1: you're that against just the weight of everything he's created.

1157
00:57:04,320 --> 00:57:06,800
Speaker 1: If he had retired after Blonde on Blonde, you know

1158
00:57:06,960 --> 00:57:10,480
Speaker 1: that the mythical motorcycle accident that he had that forced

1159
00:57:10,520 --> 00:57:12,759
Speaker 1: him to go into hiding because essentially his life had

1160
00:57:12,760 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 1: gotten too crazy at that point he had to find

1161
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:17,920
Speaker 1: a way to save himself. If he had just retired,

1162
00:57:18,000 --> 00:57:21,160
Speaker 1: then he would he would be a legend, like if

1163
00:57:21,200 --> 00:57:23,800
Speaker 1: it was just about like those first seven or so albums,

1164
00:57:24,280 --> 00:57:26,760
Speaker 1: and yet he has gone on to create music for

1165
00:57:26,840 --> 00:57:29,720
Speaker 1: like fifty years after that. Can you imagine I mean,

1166
00:57:29,800 --> 00:57:34,960
Speaker 1: having that musical legacy plus the Sid Barrett level mystique.

1167
00:57:35,080 --> 00:57:38,520
Speaker 1: Oh my god. Right, And I kind of go back

1168
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:41,360
Speaker 1: to that like with him and Joan Bias, where again

1169
00:57:42,280 --> 00:57:44,640
Speaker 1: I feel like I'm carrying water for Bob Dylan being

1170
00:57:44,640 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 1: a bad boyfriends here. I don't mean to do that again.

1171
00:57:48,560 --> 00:57:50,000
Speaker 1: I feel like he was in the wrong, and I

1172
00:57:51,000 --> 00:57:53,520
Speaker 1: feel bad for Joan Bias at that time. But I

1173
00:57:53,640 --> 00:57:56,200
Speaker 1: will say that it's unimaginable to me what it was

1174
00:57:56,240 --> 00:57:59,800
Speaker 1: like to be Bob Dylan in you know, what would

1175
00:57:59,840 --> 00:58:02,120
Speaker 1: have out have been like like what does that do

1176
00:58:02,320 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: to your health? I mean, And it's kind of amazing

1177
00:58:05,280 --> 00:58:09,800
Speaker 1: that he lived at all. Yeah, you know, because I

1178
00:58:09,920 --> 00:58:12,200
Speaker 1: think that the kind of attention that he had it

1179
00:58:12,280 --> 00:58:15,000
Speaker 1: just goes beyond normal pop stardom. It was like he

1180
00:58:15,120 --> 00:58:17,000
Speaker 1: was a pop star, but he was also like a

1181
00:58:17,080 --> 00:58:20,120
Speaker 1: messiah figure at the same time, like people thought that

1182
00:58:20,200 --> 00:58:22,160
Speaker 1: he was actually going to save the world. You know,

1183
00:58:22,360 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: that he had to write political songs because like we

1184
00:58:25,360 --> 00:58:27,960
Speaker 1: needed them, Like people felt like they needed Bob Dylan

1185
00:58:28,320 --> 00:58:31,080
Speaker 1: to do certain things, uh, you know, to make the

1186
00:58:31,120 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: world a better place. I guess that's what people look

1187
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 1: at for Taylor Swift now, like we expect Taylor Swift

1188
00:58:36,200 --> 00:58:38,760
Speaker 1: to save the world by endorsing the right candidate. I

1189
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:41,040
Speaker 1: guess she's like maybe she's the closest thing to that

1190
00:58:41,120 --> 00:58:44,440
Speaker 1: kind of level of like Bob Dylan mystique. Um, but

1191
00:58:44,520 --> 00:58:46,440
Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, you really can't compare anyone

1192
00:58:46,480 --> 00:58:48,320
Speaker 1: to Bob Dylan, I think at that time. And you

1193
00:58:48,360 --> 00:58:51,000
Speaker 1: see how infuriating it must for Jon who you know,

1194
00:58:51,160 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 1: literally is out there getting arrested and on the front

1195
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,560
Speaker 1: lines down to Mississippi trying to make a difference. And

1196
00:58:57,640 --> 00:58:59,880
Speaker 1: you can see, you know, you can understand a frustration

1197
00:59:00,040 --> 00:59:02,720
Speaker 1: for like, you know, why is everyone looking to him.

1198
00:59:02,960 --> 00:59:05,680
Speaker 1: I'm the one who actually knows what's happening, and he's

1199
00:59:05,680 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 1: out there, she was saying interviews. You know, I don't

1200
00:59:07,600 --> 00:59:09,480
Speaker 1: think Bob ever want to him march by himself in

1201
00:59:09,560 --> 00:59:11,520
Speaker 1: his life. You know, that wasn't that wasn't who he was.

1202
00:59:11,640 --> 00:59:14,160
Speaker 1: So you can totally understand not only just why should

1203
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,080
Speaker 1: be piste off of him for all the personal stuff,

1204
00:59:16,440 --> 00:59:18,400
Speaker 1: but just you know, what does this guy know I'm

1205
00:59:18,440 --> 00:59:20,560
Speaker 1: the one who's actually out there talking about this stuff

1206
00:59:20,640 --> 00:59:23,120
Speaker 1: on the front line. So yeah, well there's there's that

1207
00:59:23,160 --> 00:59:25,320
Speaker 1: great line that she has in No Direction home, where

1208
00:59:25,800 --> 00:59:27,440
Speaker 1: she's like, whenever I go to a be in or

1209
00:59:27,440 --> 00:59:29,400
Speaker 1: a sit in or a loan or a jail in,

1210
00:59:30,920 --> 00:59:33,800
Speaker 1: people always ask me, is Bob coming? And She's like, no,

1211
00:59:34,040 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: you ever gonna come. He's never gonna come. Why would

1212
00:59:38,080 --> 00:59:41,160
Speaker 1: he come to this random event, like he's never you know, Yeah,

1213
00:59:41,200 --> 00:59:43,640
Speaker 1: he was there with Martin Luther King in nine three

1214
00:59:43,720 --> 00:59:45,960
Speaker 1: because I dragged him and he's like, all right, I

1215
00:59:46,080 --> 00:59:48,240
Speaker 1: did it. You know. It's like, if you're I was

1216
00:59:48,320 --> 00:59:51,080
Speaker 1: with MLK, nothing's going to top that. So you know,

1217
00:59:51,160 --> 00:59:54,640
Speaker 1: I'm gonna go instead, you know, totally reinvent rock music

1218
00:59:55,360 --> 00:59:57,640
Speaker 1: and changed the course of human history. That that's women

1219
00:59:57,680 --> 01:00:00,200
Speaker 1: to do. You guys can go to your protest. I'm

1220
01:00:00,200 --> 01:00:04,000
Speaker 1: gonna change an art form for the better. So when

1221
01:00:04,000 --> 01:00:07,280
Speaker 1: we look at these two together, I feel like, again

1222
01:00:07,400 --> 01:00:10,240
Speaker 1: for me, what I love about it is I still

1223
01:00:10,280 --> 01:00:11,880
Speaker 1: look at as a great love story. You know, even

1224
01:00:11,960 --> 01:00:13,800
Speaker 1: though they didn't end up together, and even though they

1225
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,640
Speaker 1: weren't really together that long. I go back to the

1226
01:00:16,680 --> 01:00:20,400
Speaker 1: Stars Born analogy, you know, like there's something really attractive

1227
01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:22,760
Speaker 1: to I think all of us about a story where

1228
01:00:23,400 --> 01:00:25,400
Speaker 1: you have a really famous person and a less famous

1229
01:00:25,480 --> 01:00:28,320
Speaker 1: person and they fall in love, but then there's this

1230
01:00:28,480 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: weird career dynamic that ends up getting in the way,

1231
01:00:31,480 --> 01:00:33,880
Speaker 1: you know, and that movie has been remade four times,

1232
01:00:34,560 --> 01:00:37,720
Speaker 1: you know, so people obviously are attracted to it. And

1233
01:00:38,080 --> 01:00:40,880
Speaker 1: there's that sort of classic quality to the Bob Dylan

1234
01:00:40,960 --> 01:00:43,280
Speaker 1: and Joan Baia's story too. I hope they do one

1235
01:00:43,360 --> 01:00:45,240
Speaker 1: final do it, because I don't think they've sang together

1236
01:00:45,360 --> 01:00:47,800
Speaker 1: since that eighty four tour. I hope they do one

1237
01:00:47,840 --> 01:00:52,200
Speaker 1: more time, something, something huge, maybe the next inauguration. Who knows, well,

1238
01:00:52,360 --> 01:00:54,520
Speaker 1: love is just a four little word, as they say

1239
01:00:54,640 --> 01:00:57,960
Speaker 1: Jordan's and Bob, I feel like we'd have other four

1240
01:00:58,040 --> 01:01:02,120
Speaker 1: little words in response to that, But who knows? Who knows?

1241
01:01:02,880 --> 01:01:05,240
Speaker 1: Never say never, and it would be amazing to see.

1242
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:08,280
Speaker 1: But maybe it's also more fun to think about it

1243
01:01:08,440 --> 01:01:10,800
Speaker 1: than it would be to actually see it. You never know,

1244
01:01:11,160 --> 01:01:15,320
Speaker 1: but if that happens, we'll record an emergency Rivals follow

1245
01:01:15,440 --> 01:01:17,840
Speaker 1: up episode and break it down for all of you.

1246
01:01:19,240 --> 01:01:21,840
Speaker 1: Until then, thank you all all of you for listening

1247
01:01:21,880 --> 01:01:24,320
Speaker 1: to this episode of Rivals, and we will be back

1248
01:01:24,520 --> 01:01:28,760
Speaker 1: with more beefs and feuds and long simmering resentments next week.

1249
01:01:36,880 --> 01:01:39,360
Speaker 1: Rivals is a production of I Heart Radio. The executive

1250
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,520
Speaker 1: producers are Shawn Tytone and Noel Brown. The supervising producers

1251
01:01:42,560 --> 01:01:46,280
Speaker 1: are Taylor Chi Cooin and Tristan McNeil. The producers Joel Hatstat,

1252
01:01:46,640 --> 01:01:48,960
Speaker 1: I'm Jordan's run Talk. I'm Stephen Hyden. If you like

1253
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,000
Speaker 1: what you heard, please subscribe and leave us a review.

1254
01:01:51,120 --> 01:01:53,600
Speaker 1: For more podcasts for my heart Radio, visit the I

1255
01:01:53,760 --> 01:01:56,680
Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to

1256
01:01:56,720 --> 01:01:57,520
Speaker 1: your favorite shows.