WEBVTT - Chris Stein 0:00:08.640 --> 0:00:12.400 Welcome, welcome, brocome back to the Bob left Nets podcast. 0:00:12.800 --> 0:00:17.279 My yesterday it's Chris Stein and Blonde Chris so that 0:00:17.840 --> 0:00:20.959 taft bond always and the fan you know, it's whether 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.000 you know. I guess you gathered over the years, but 0:00:23.960 --> 0:00:27.080 I appreciate your missives. So when we were setting this up, 0:00:27.600 --> 0:00:30.840 you had a busy schedule. So what was going on there? 0:00:30.960 --> 0:00:33.839 We've had just been the last three days working up 0:00:34.000 --> 0:00:40.240 new music, so that's we're very slow. The Blondie situation 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:46.960 is glacial in its forward motion, and uh, we were 0:00:47.040 --> 0:00:49.560 you know, we're starting to get it going down. Let's 0:00:49.560 --> 0:00:52.000 break it down. What's the process? How do you decide 0:00:52.040 --> 0:00:54.320 to record? What do you do before you get in 0:00:54.320 --> 0:00:59.400 the room. We are collect material people, you know, it's 0:00:59.400 --> 0:01:03.360 a bit them all take stuff from outside sources wherever 0:01:03.400 --> 0:01:10.679 it's coming from. Uh, then the the this time me 0:01:11.160 --> 0:01:14.320 and the keyboard player and the other guitar player and 0:01:14.400 --> 0:01:19.640 Debbie get together. Do you started home alone other people 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:23.039 started home alone, and then just bring it to the 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:25.520 rehearsal room, or do you send it to other members 0:01:25.600 --> 0:01:28.319 and then they give their feedback. Yes, the latter I 0:01:28.760 --> 0:01:33.000 not necessarily feedback. Everybody just kind of knows what's good. 0:01:33.440 --> 0:01:38.039 But I do demos on my home equipment and then 0:01:38.600 --> 0:01:41.440 send it around and we wind it. We wind up 0:01:41.480 --> 0:01:44.520 with a big online list. This time we had like 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:48.600 twenty five or so pieces that we pick and choose 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:52.200 from and those are finished songs, no demos, stuff that 0:01:52.280 --> 0:01:55.800 might finish. I don't mean the recordings, but the songs themselves. No, No, 0:01:55.960 --> 0:01:58.400 definitely not. Debbie does a lot of the a lot 0:01:58.440 --> 0:02:02.480 of I don't write a lot of lyrics. For example, Debbie. 0:02:02.720 --> 0:02:11.000 I give Debbie of unfinished lyrical ideas with melodies, with 0:02:11.080 --> 0:02:14.519 melody lines that are suggestions of melodies, and she develops 0:02:14.560 --> 0:02:19.320 the lyrical ideas. Okay, when you gathered physically, what happens? 0:02:19.680 --> 0:02:21.960 Then we get together we have by then we have 0:02:22.560 --> 0:02:25.840 a few of these things chosen and we just go 0:02:25.919 --> 0:02:28.360 over them. So we went into these last three days 0:02:28.400 --> 0:02:32.000 we had seven things that we picked out and we 0:02:32.160 --> 0:02:37.160 just learned them and go over the chords and like that. Okay, 0:02:37.160 --> 0:02:40.680 need let's just say the music business has changed radically 0:02:40.840 --> 0:02:44.680 from your late seventies early eighties heyday, and a lot 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:46.880 of as they say, I hate this term, but I'll 0:02:46.919 --> 0:02:50.560 use it any way. Heritage acts don't even record new music. 0:02:50.680 --> 0:02:54.760 What's the motivation to record new music today? For us, 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:58.680 it's just what we do. And it's just like the 0:02:58.680 --> 0:03:04.840 shark moving forward. And uh, you know, I enjoy it. 0:03:05.240 --> 0:03:08.440 I hear so much modern stuff that I like. I 0:03:09.240 --> 0:03:13.200 you know, my what I've all I've said over the 0:03:13.320 --> 0:03:18.040 years is that of the stuff you here is always crap, 0:03:18.360 --> 0:03:21.919 but nobody remembers the bad stuff. You know, people are 0:03:21.960 --> 0:03:26.200 only familiar with the good material. Maybe it's a different ratio, 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:30.480 I'm not sure, but I hear a lot of modern 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:35.680 stuff inspirationally, hear things that inspire me, styles, whatever, and 0:03:36.000 --> 0:03:38.920 it's just, you know, it's what we'd like to try 0:03:38.960 --> 0:03:42.440 to stay fresh in that respect. So what are you 0:03:42.520 --> 0:03:47.160 hearing that's turning now? All kinds of all kinds of stuff. 0:03:47.680 --> 0:03:51.480 I mean, it's it's gratifying. There are all these female 0:03:51.560 --> 0:03:55.320 fronted bands that I like. You know, there's you know, 0:03:55.440 --> 0:03:59.520 Surfboard and sun Slower Being and Churches and all these 0:03:59.600 --> 0:04:03.920 girls are out there doing their thing. Um. I personally 0:04:03.920 --> 0:04:08.800 have been a huge fan of modern Latin music for 0:04:09.080 --> 0:04:11.920 over fifteen years. I've been a reggaeton and could be 0:04:11.960 --> 0:04:15.200 a fan, and I knew that stuff was going to 0:04:15.280 --> 0:04:19.440 cross over, and now it's ubiquitous. Those grooves are very 0:04:19.480 --> 0:04:23.080 sexy to be the dembo beat. You know, dembo beat 0:04:23.200 --> 0:04:25.480 is don't want to explain to the audience what it is. 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:29.440 It's just a boom boom. It's the reggaetone beat is 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:33.440 very specific form. It's almost like a twelve bar blues 0:04:33.880 --> 0:04:39.240 in its specificity. And I just as soon as I 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.640 started hearing that stuff years ago, I was really turned on. 0:04:41.800 --> 0:04:44.680 It really took a long time to cross over, and then, 0:04:45.120 --> 0:04:47.799 you know, and then we had finally we have things 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:50.400 like lean On and some of these great tracks that 0:04:50.440 --> 0:04:55.279 are dipping into that groove a little bit. Okay, when 0:04:55.279 --> 0:04:58.200 we were growing up, music was driving the culture and 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:00.359 if you were interested in new music, you could just 0:05:00.440 --> 0:05:03.360 turn on the FM radio station. Certainly am before that. 0:05:04.279 --> 0:05:07.400 How do you discover all this stuff? Or you make 0:05:07.480 --> 0:05:11.760 it actively? Are you doing it me? I? I pick 0:05:11.839 --> 0:05:16.120 up from the weirdest online sources, just you know, looking 0:05:16.160 --> 0:05:19.560 at TikTok videos or people's Instagram stories, and I'll hear 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:23.640 two bars is something that really gets to me, and 0:05:23.640 --> 0:05:26.800 then I will shazam it and find out what it is. 0:05:27.480 --> 0:05:30.599 So for an old fucker, I am very adept and 0:05:30.600 --> 0:05:32.880 all this stuff. I've been doing computers for a very 0:05:32.920 --> 0:05:37.479 long time. I started in the eighties, so I have 0:05:37.880 --> 0:05:42.200 good skills with the software and hardware. Well, let's buy 0:05:42.320 --> 0:05:44.360 for kat here and leave the skills aside for a second. 0:05:44.560 --> 0:05:48.159 You talk about TikTok irrelevant of knowing how to work 0:05:48.360 --> 0:05:51.120 the machine or the phone. Do you spend a lot 0:05:51.160 --> 0:05:55.520 of time on TikTok, Instagram, etcetera. Instagram, on Instagram and Twitter? Yeah, 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:57.960 it's my main Well, I certainly see on Twitter all 0:05:57.960 --> 0:05:59.760 the time, and you have a sense of humor, and 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:03.560 you about your photographs, But what is the inspiration You're 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:07.480 expressing yourself on Twitter? But in TikTok and Instagram? Do 0:06:07.520 --> 0:06:09.720 you want to take the pulse of the nation or 0:06:09.800 --> 0:06:13.680 you just really interested Instagram. I just like the graphic 0:06:13.839 --> 0:06:16.200 aspect of it, and it was a great place to 0:06:17.160 --> 0:06:19.640 start doing the photographs. And I'm not like a huge 0:06:20.040 --> 0:06:23.240 influence or any of that kind of nonsense, but I 0:06:23.320 --> 0:06:27.280 like TikTok how it works with all these kids, you know, 0:06:27.320 --> 0:06:32.600 sharing audios and often sharing original audios. And my daughters 0:06:32.640 --> 0:06:34.479 get into it and they're always coming up to me 0:06:34.520 --> 0:06:38.360 and showing me some crazy little bit and that's fun. 0:06:39.200 --> 0:06:42.920 And I foresee I was just telling the guys in 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:47.640 the rehearsal yesterday, I'm for seeing nine second songs. Now 0:06:48.279 --> 0:06:51.760 that's probably the new frontier. I don't know that we'll 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:56.800 be doing any but it's probably coming, you know, And 0:06:56.839 --> 0:07:00.240 I think I guess you gotta blame blame fucking mine 0:07:00.640 --> 0:07:04.000 for all this short attention has been right right right? 0:07:04.279 --> 0:07:08.160 Have you actively tried to get any of Blondie's music 0:07:08.800 --> 0:07:13.120 past or present used on TikTok? Yeah? Yeah, yeah, heart 0:07:13.120 --> 0:07:16.120 a glasses all over the place for that was trending 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:19.920 several times with whatever, you know, kind of visuals that 0:07:20.160 --> 0:07:26.480 was evoking in little kids. But it's out there. Okay. 0:07:26.520 --> 0:07:29.760 So you participate on Twitter? Do you follow a lot 0:07:29.800 --> 0:07:31.760 of people on Twitter too? And do you spend time 0:07:31.840 --> 0:07:34.160 reading Twitter? Yeah? Yeah, sure? What kind of people you follow? 0:07:34.200 --> 0:07:36.040 What are you looking for? A lot of left wing 0:07:36.120 --> 0:07:40.040 political people, but I pay attention to what the right 0:07:40.080 --> 0:07:44.280 wing maniacs are on about also, and you know a 0:07:44.320 --> 0:07:51.200 lot of the artists and film people, directors, writers, etcetera. Uh, 0:07:51.240 --> 0:07:54.600 it's a long list. I have really great people following 0:07:54.600 --> 0:07:58.000 me to them, you know, I'm not gonna flex about 0:07:58.080 --> 0:08:02.560 But I have followers that I'm proud of. So what 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:05.720 motivates you to tweet? It's kind of this high of mind. 0:08:05.760 --> 0:08:07.640 I mean, it's not it's not a real hie of mine, 0:08:07.720 --> 0:08:09.960 but it's I call it the false hive of mind. 0:08:10.640 --> 0:08:14.120 But I like the fact that whatever you're thinking now, 0:08:15.040 --> 0:08:19.640 somebody else's gonna be writing the same goddamn thing somewhere. 0:08:20.040 --> 0:08:27.160 If there's almost no individual commentary, and you know the 0:08:27.200 --> 0:08:30.640 fact that it's so all over the place too. But 0:08:30.760 --> 0:08:32.480 I mean, you know, I thought one in the morning 0:08:32.520 --> 0:08:37.440 following the Ukrainian situation, and the immediacy of it is 0:08:37.840 --> 0:08:42.520 really fucking you know, intense. Also, uh, you know, you 0:08:42.520 --> 0:08:47.240 have people they're commenting on what's going on, and that's 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.920 you know, it's every duty. It's not. It's changed a 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:57.960 lot of things in the culture, the immediacy of the internet. Okay, 0:08:58.000 --> 0:09:00.319 so you follow a lot of left wing when you 0:09:00.400 --> 0:09:03.319 check in with the right, what's your hope for democracy 0:09:03.440 --> 0:09:06.360 or autocracy in the world today? Yeah, I don't know. 0:09:06.440 --> 0:09:09.360 It's a really it's a rough time and it's a 0:09:09.480 --> 0:09:13.680 rough call. And I didn't you know, you and I 0:09:13.679 --> 0:09:16.840 have been through a lot of all that stuff back 0:09:16.880 --> 0:09:21.400 then uh, you know, I was right at the when 0:09:21.440 --> 0:09:25.000 the fugs tried to levitate the Pentagon without Alan Ginsberg. 0:09:25.040 --> 0:09:27.280 I was like right there sitting by the stage and 0:09:27.600 --> 0:09:33.200 got tear gased and all this stuff. So I don't know, 0:09:33.280 --> 0:09:38.480 it doesn't it's it's I've never seen it so fifty 0:09:38.520 --> 0:09:42.559 fifty before with such a balance of maybe it's all 0:09:42.600 --> 0:09:45.720 going to go to ship or maybe it's gonna be okay. 0:09:46.240 --> 0:09:50.040 It's usually there's usually a little bit more of a 0:09:50.240 --> 0:09:53.880 pendulum swing to one side or the other generally that 0:09:54.040 --> 0:09:57.280 things will be okay. You know, we all lived through 0:09:57.320 --> 0:10:02.160 Martin Luther King a lot of positivity, you know, so 0:10:02.480 --> 0:10:06.760 to see the stuff that's going on now is it's frustrating. 0:10:07.320 --> 0:10:12.360 But I am continually amused. My general outlook on life 0:10:12.480 --> 0:10:19.600 is amusement, and there's a lot of it's funny what 0:10:19.679 --> 0:10:22.320 goes on to in the world. You know, you have children, 0:10:22.360 --> 0:10:24.560 so some of it's not that funny. I don't have 0:10:24.640 --> 0:10:27.160 children all die, you know. Yeah, I know. I talked 0:10:27.200 --> 0:10:30.680 to them about that stuff about you know, potential for 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:34.240 bleak future. I don't know how much they get of that, 0:10:34.320 --> 0:10:39.479 but they're they're aware of current events certainly, like I'm 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.520 really you know, I'm really amused now that all these 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:48.679 right wing guys who are anti Marxists and calling you know, 0:10:49.440 --> 0:10:55.040 Alc a Marxist, letting this whatever, you know, socialist monster 0:10:55.480 --> 0:11:01.080 are now sort of supporting this Russian invasion, which is 0:11:01.880 --> 0:11:04.080 it's it's crazy, but it's also very funny on a 0:11:04.080 --> 0:11:06.840 certain level. I agree, But I was thinking about it 0:11:06.880 --> 0:11:10.800 just before we started. Is it literally black and white? 0:11:11.160 --> 0:11:13.840 Since Biden is taking one side, they have to take 0:11:13.880 --> 0:11:18.000 the other. What do you think philosophically that's the side 0:11:18.040 --> 0:11:20.120 They're wrong? No, no, no, for sure, It's just all 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:22.800 partisan politics. It has nothing to do with the fucking 0:11:23.080 --> 0:11:25.280 I mean, do you think. I don't think Bill O'Reilly 0:11:25.559 --> 0:11:28.000 believes any fucking thing he ever said. I think he's 0:11:28.040 --> 0:11:30.240 just doing it for the bucks. I think maybe some 0:11:30.320 --> 0:11:33.360 of the other ones, you know, believe it. Maybe Carlson 0:11:34.000 --> 0:11:37.959 is genuinely that. But there's just as you know, I 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:41.320 briefly met Ann Coulter, I think a lot of these 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:46.239 guys are just doing it for effect and for uh 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:49.400 the check. Okay, Bill Maher goes on that he's friends 0:11:49.400 --> 0:11:52.760 within Coulter. You know, with Tucker Carlson, I'd just like 0:11:52.840 --> 0:11:55.680 to get him alone, and Lauren would say, off the record, 0:11:55.760 --> 0:11:59.080 you really believe this ship. So you're talking to Ann Coulter, 0:11:59.760 --> 0:12:03.040 did you think she was just throwing, you know, bombs 0:12:03.120 --> 0:12:05.679 to have a career. I saw her in a very 0:12:05.960 --> 0:12:09.920 show busy situation that was and it was very obvious 0:12:09.960 --> 0:12:14.160 that she was part of the show bizmail you. So, 0:12:14.280 --> 0:12:16.400 I mean I could say that, Well, I guess for me. 0:12:16.920 --> 0:12:19.480 You know, I remember the sixties and seventies. I remember 0:12:19.520 --> 0:12:22.599 going to college. You could literally point out the Republicans 0:12:22.640 --> 0:12:25.240 on campus. You literally knew who they were, and they 0:12:25.240 --> 0:12:27.520 were a handful. And I hear from all day long 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.880 the fact that a very significant part of the youth 0:12:32.559 --> 0:12:35.960 are Republicans and supporting the Fox News agenda. It's just 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:39.440 mind blowing to me. Well, because that's what they're exposed to, though, 0:12:39.440 --> 0:12:44.240 It's just it's just indoctrination and not being supposed to 0:12:44.600 --> 0:12:48.959 another side. You know, I was lucky. I was when 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:52.720 I was a kid. I was you know, my parents 0:12:52.720 --> 0:12:55.080 were red as the FBI famously came to my house 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:56.680 when I was maybe and talked to my old man 0:12:57.520 --> 0:13:01.480 C and so forth. M I was. I had both sides. 0:13:01.600 --> 0:13:04.680 The FBI came to your house. You remember that actually happening. No, 0:13:04.760 --> 0:13:06.840 I don't remember, I remember my father being really creeped 0:13:06.840 --> 0:13:09.719 out though, and telling me, you know, he gave them 0:13:09.880 --> 0:13:12.679 the name of some guy who was dead and they 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.320 were happy that he was forthcoming and left. Okay, So 0:13:17.640 --> 0:13:20.199 you know, they're those famous stories of the Eagles raising 0:13:20.240 --> 0:13:25.240 money for Jerry Brown for president and Irving as Jerry 0:13:25.280 --> 0:13:28.640 wanted to come on stage, and Irving said, no, okay, 0:13:28.880 --> 0:13:32.200 the acts were bigger than the politicians. A lot of 0:13:32.280 --> 0:13:36.600 years since then. So where is the place, if any, 0:13:36.720 --> 0:13:41.040 for music in today's topsy turvy political world? Um, yeah, no, 0:13:41.160 --> 0:13:43.959 I don't you know. There's just so much of it. 0:13:44.440 --> 0:13:48.520 What have you know, ten thousand songs an hour, go 0:13:48.640 --> 0:13:52.000 on to the sixty a day they say on Spotify, 0:13:52.080 --> 0:13:55.400 whatever the hell that's supposed to be. Yeah, so, uh, 0:13:55.640 --> 0:14:02.080 it's it's difficult plus everybody, plus with the with the 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:06.199 society being so split down the middle and pulling into directions, 0:14:06.559 --> 0:14:11.520 people are scared to alienate their fan bases. I think 0:14:11.720 --> 0:14:17.000 with heavy political statements, um, you know, it's just the 0:14:17.160 --> 0:14:23.840 obvious stuff I'd like to see. And then also making 0:14:23.880 --> 0:14:27.080 a political statement, you know, be it on Twitter or 0:14:27.120 --> 0:14:32.720 whatever by an artist just immediately gets shut down by 0:14:32.760 --> 0:14:36.040 the opposing group. It doesn't matter, you know. I mean, 0:14:36.040 --> 0:14:39.200 you come out and you say something that's meaningful to 0:14:39.280 --> 0:14:43.640 your fan base or your political affiliation, but the other 0:14:43.640 --> 0:14:46.520 guys are just gonna say, yeah, that's that guy, you know, 0:14:47.000 --> 0:14:50.360 or whatever. My guy is better. So it's kind of 0:14:50.440 --> 0:14:56.200 it almost, it's just blowing into the wind. I don't 0:14:56.240 --> 0:15:00.880 know how to make a meaningful impact on the culture 0:15:00.920 --> 0:15:06.000 politically really, except in little increments, you know. That's why 0:15:06.040 --> 0:15:08.280 I go on Twitter and say stuff. But again, I 0:15:08.920 --> 0:15:11.920 most of my stuff is is in a humorous vein. 0:15:12.000 --> 0:15:14.720 Are you worried at all about going on record about 0:15:14.760 --> 0:15:18.000 anything and alienating your audience? No, not really. I don't 0:15:18.000 --> 0:15:21.560 think so, because I I you know, I think I mean, 0:15:22.960 --> 0:15:27.880 Blondie fans are not going to be surprised how we 0:15:28.080 --> 0:15:33.920 stand on I'll be q T rights, you know, or etcetera, 0:15:34.600 --> 0:15:38.880 um or international politics. I don't think it's gonna nobody's 0:15:38.920 --> 0:15:45.200 gonna be surprised by how well what we think. What 0:15:45.280 --> 0:15:47.480 did you do for the two years of the pandemic? 0:15:47.720 --> 0:15:50.040 I wrote a memoir. I wrote a lot of a 0:15:50.080 --> 0:15:53.040 memoir and which I'm pitching now this that was nice. 0:15:53.520 --> 0:15:54.960 It didn't do a hell of a lot of music. 0:15:55.000 --> 0:15:57.320 I only did a little bit, but the writing was 0:15:58.040 --> 0:16:02.400 of full on project that's a year or more. But um, 0:16:02.440 --> 0:16:05.520 you know, I'm just finishing that up now and where 0:16:05.520 --> 0:16:07.480 we are pitching it? And did you write it yourself 0:16:07.560 --> 0:16:09.120 or do you have a ghost writer co writer? Now? 0:16:09.120 --> 0:16:11.800 I write it myself, and when we got a publisher, 0:16:11.840 --> 0:16:14.400 I'll start dealing with an editor. So usually when you 0:16:14.440 --> 0:16:17.800 start to write, you remember stuff that you didn't think 0:16:17.800 --> 0:16:20.320 of until you start to write. So were there any 0:16:20.400 --> 0:16:23.000 interesting things that came to you as you're writing that 0:16:23.000 --> 0:16:25.840 you forgot? Maybe? I, you know, I had to research 0:16:25.880 --> 0:16:29.200 a lot of it. I was referring to other Blondie 0:16:29.280 --> 0:16:36.320 books that had the bones and the chronology people who 0:16:36.440 --> 0:16:38.600 did that work for me, which was good. And I 0:16:38.760 --> 0:16:42.160 kept having to refer to the Blondie gig list, which 0:16:42.200 --> 0:16:45.440 is online list of all the shows we've done. Stuff 0:16:45.520 --> 0:16:47.480 like that was very helpful. I don't know how much 0:16:47.520 --> 0:16:51.080 stuff I didn't remember that, but I, you know, I 0:16:51.200 --> 0:16:55.000 talked to people and got some anecdotes and things that 0:16:55.080 --> 0:16:58.880 were unique. It is it more of a straightforward tale 0:16:59.000 --> 0:17:00.960 or does it have the sense of humor you employ 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.080 on Twitter. Yeah, yeah, no, I've tried to make it 0:17:04.359 --> 0:17:06.400 white hearted. But it didn't have to, you know, I did. 0:17:06.720 --> 0:17:09.000 I didn't realize how much you would have to delve 0:17:09.000 --> 0:17:14.760 into addiction, um specifically that became it became a theme 0:17:14.800 --> 0:17:16.439 in there, because you know, we got we all got 0:17:16.560 --> 0:17:19.960 really fucked up for a certain period. There were a 0:17:19.960 --> 0:17:22.520 lot of ups and downs. So how did you become addicted? 0:17:22.720 --> 0:17:28.480 Just from doing drugs always and from not having much 0:17:28.520 --> 0:17:34.480 information about it in that period in the seventies and uh, 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.040 you know, emulating our heroes be it you know, Burrows 0:17:38.160 --> 0:17:42.359 or lou Reed or whatever, and only seeing the cool 0:17:42.440 --> 0:17:46.360 side of it somehow and not the downside. Okay, well 0:17:46.400 --> 0:17:51.040 we all smoked marijuana hash. What was your progression from there? Well, 0:17:51.280 --> 0:17:54.240 we just did a lot of coke, which was kind 0:17:54.240 --> 0:17:59.960 of okay with the powers that be, and then start 0:18:00.040 --> 0:18:03.440 to dabbling and smoked dragons, you know how you do 0:18:03.560 --> 0:18:06.960 that on tinfron smoking heroin, and that led into just 0:18:07.240 --> 0:18:11.080 regular heroin usage. Didn't last too long a couple of years. 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:13.280 But then you know, and that's what how I wind 0:18:13.359 --> 0:18:17.840 up with that weird protect protracted illness because I, uh 0:18:17.880 --> 0:18:23.120 screwed my immune system really badly from doing this stuff. Okay, 0:18:23.160 --> 0:18:27.000 so you're smoking heroin whatever, you start injecting heroin in 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.600 your mind, don't you somewhere say, wait a second, what 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:33.800 am I doing? After a while, what am I doing? 0:18:34.400 --> 0:18:41.159 Came from going through withdrawals and from walking on the 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:46.879 street and seeing everybody around me being normal and feeling 0:18:47.000 --> 0:18:52.200 so alienated from the normalcy of the rest of the world. Okay, 0:18:52.240 --> 0:18:54.840 so you know, being a rock star is tough. You 0:18:54.920 --> 0:18:58.120 play to, you know, twenty thousand adoring fans, you get 0:18:58.160 --> 0:19:01.120 on bust with the same five actors that you've known 0:19:01.200 --> 0:19:04.080 your whole life. Takes you hours to come down from 0:19:04.080 --> 0:19:07.040 the hit. A lot of people start taking drugs to 0:19:07.080 --> 0:19:10.479 cope with the road. What drove you to heroin? Well, yeah, no, 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:13.280 I mean there was a premenous amount of pressure we 0:19:14.080 --> 0:19:16.199 You know, you have to remember what the fucking period 0:19:16.280 --> 0:19:18.919 was like in the seventies. It was still a wild 0:19:18.920 --> 0:19:25.080 West out there. It wasn't like, there wasn't the smoothness 0:19:25.119 --> 0:19:27.040 that we have today when we were doing shows. It 0:19:27.119 --> 0:19:29.800 was it was rugged and we had a lot of 0:19:29.840 --> 0:19:35.040 bad representation and etcetera, etcetera. Again, with a lot of 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.800 ups and downs. Financially, I wasn't trust trusted a lot 0:19:39.800 --> 0:19:44.920 of people I shouldn't have trusted necessarily, and um should 0:19:44.960 --> 0:19:48.359 have been bed. That was probably the I do blame 0:19:48.440 --> 0:19:56.080 my endless weed smoking on my lack of attention to business. Possibly, 0:19:56.280 --> 0:20:00.160 but I don't have any kind of ahead for mathematics. 0:20:00.240 --> 0:20:03.080 But I didn't pay a lot of I didn't pay 0:20:03.119 --> 0:20:04.760 a lot of attention to the business stuff. I just 0:20:05.240 --> 0:20:15.560 left it with people. So the year plus that you 0:20:15.600 --> 0:20:19.080 were a heroin addict. You know, people talk about scoring 0:20:19.480 --> 0:20:21.680 by the same token. You have a certain amount of money, 0:20:21.720 --> 0:20:24.520 your rock star. How did you get your dope which 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:27.040 you need, you know, multiple times a day. Yeah, you know, 0:20:28.040 --> 0:20:33.600 initially we had people delivering, but as things declined generally 0:20:33.600 --> 0:20:38.720 and we ran out of money and sold our fancy 0:20:39.160 --> 0:20:44.919 living quarters. Um, you know, I was crawling around. And 0:20:44.960 --> 0:20:47.159 then I went you know, after after even after that, 0:20:47.240 --> 0:20:53.160 even after I got off being a junkie and went 0:20:53.160 --> 0:20:54.800 on to I was on a method on program for 0:20:54.840 --> 0:20:58.280 many years, and I then I became a full on 0:20:58.720 --> 0:21:02.320 cocaine addict once again, but much more so than I 0:21:02.320 --> 0:21:05.440 had been in the early days. So that was another 0:21:05.520 --> 0:21:07.960 thing I have to fight off. Okay, So how did 0:21:08.000 --> 0:21:10.040 you stop taking the methodon and you said in the 0:21:10.080 --> 0:21:12.800 past tense were you still taking it? No? No, yeah, 0:21:12.800 --> 0:21:15.840 I finally just I just tampered it off on my own, 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.399 very gradually over a long period. It's kind of a 0:21:19.480 --> 0:21:22.639 city of stuff. But the Methodon is also a great 0:21:23.000 --> 0:21:29.200 cushion for for cocaine youth and many people I knew 0:21:29.240 --> 0:21:31.920 on the method and program. We're all using coke all 0:21:31.960 --> 0:21:34.480 the time because I had a doctor, had a really 0:21:34.520 --> 0:21:41.040 great doctor method On doctor who swore that Methodon was 0:21:41.080 --> 0:21:45.760 an antipsychotic, and that she was aware of lifelong schizophrenics 0:21:45.760 --> 0:21:49.200 who were cured cured by Methodon. But that, of course 0:21:49.240 --> 0:21:53.240 it can't. You know, it's too restricted to be experimented 0:21:53.280 --> 0:21:58.280 with in these psychiatric situations, as you know are many 0:21:58.520 --> 0:22:05.119 drugs in America. But so in that respect, the anti 0:22:05.160 --> 0:22:09.720 psychotic properties are kind of obvious for people doing cocaine. 0:22:09.720 --> 0:22:13.439 You'd get less paranoid and less insane, doo and cope 0:22:14.000 --> 0:22:16.200 when you're on method on. Both the high was still 0:22:16.200 --> 0:22:20.080 as good. Yeah, you know then, but then cocaine addiction. 0:22:20.840 --> 0:22:24.520 You know, it's when we were starting out and we're 0:22:25.080 --> 0:22:28.359 in the midst of the cocaine of the late seventies 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:32.399 and early eighties, Nobody thought it was addictive, but you know, 0:22:32.560 --> 0:22:36.040 of course it is. And you feel horrible if you're 0:22:36.119 --> 0:22:40.680 using daily and then you stop your crashing and feeling 0:22:41.320 --> 0:22:47.159 slugged out and unhappy. So it's that. But yeah, with 0:22:47.280 --> 0:22:51.040 method on, it's uh, it's more a lot of aspects 0:22:51.040 --> 0:22:55.040 of it are tolerable. So how long did you do cocaine? 0:22:55.080 --> 0:22:57.480 What period was this and how did you get off 0:22:57.480 --> 0:23:01.600 the cocaine this time? After we stopped doing the blondie situation, 0:23:01.680 --> 0:23:04.280 which really just kind of fizzled out, then I was 0:23:04.359 --> 0:23:07.679 doing coke for I don't know, you know, four or 0:23:07.680 --> 0:23:12.720 five years, probably maybe even longer. And then we started 0:23:12.760 --> 0:23:16.119 putting the Banta back together. Then I met my great 0:23:16.160 --> 0:23:21.680 wife and she was instrumental in me so bring up 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:24.920 and that was it, and we were on tour somewhere 0:23:24.920 --> 0:23:27.720 and I this is just there was the point where 0:23:27.720 --> 0:23:31.800 I stopped doing the method on and I had gotten 0:23:31.840 --> 0:23:34.159 it down to five milligrams a day, and then I 0:23:34.200 --> 0:23:36.680 just stopped. And I felt a little weird for about 0:23:36.720 --> 0:23:39.240 a week and then I was okay. And now now 0:23:39.280 --> 0:23:43.640 i've been I've been relatively sober for uh twenty years 0:23:43.720 --> 0:23:46.080 or so, but you smoked marijuana on a regular basis. 0:23:46.080 --> 0:23:50.199 Still no, don you're essentially clean. It gets me too, Stone, 0:23:50.280 --> 0:23:51.960 I can't do it. I would like to. I feel 0:23:51.960 --> 0:23:56.280 like I'm missing something now that's everywhere, but I just 0:23:56.320 --> 0:23:58.560 don't do it. What do I know? Every drug I've 0:23:58.600 --> 0:24:01.160 ever taken has never lived up to the building everybody 0:24:01.240 --> 0:24:04.200 says it's so great. Maybe so you know, I think 0:24:04.359 --> 0:24:09.840 I think you know. I think Pott interfaces well with 0:24:10.040 --> 0:24:14.400 being a teenager, and in your twenties there's a different interface. Yeah, 0:24:14.440 --> 0:24:16.720 we're gonna go down this path. I certainly think, you know, 0:24:16.760 --> 0:24:20.679 but it makes me wonder. You know, if marijuana was 0:24:20.760 --> 0:24:24.560 legal everywhere, would everybody still talk about it in the 0:24:24.600 --> 0:24:27.119 same insider way. I mean, people talk about being drunk, 0:24:27.520 --> 0:24:30.520 but you know, being drunk, you're active. Although there's different 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:34.080 strands of mariwater as they say canabis. Now you know 0:24:34.160 --> 0:24:38.399 it's relatively pacifying and you retreat you I don't know. 0:24:38.560 --> 0:24:43.240 So I you know, my kids, I've I tell them, 0:24:43.280 --> 0:24:45.720 you know, if you're gonna get stone, smoke weed and 0:24:45.960 --> 0:24:50.280 don't get drunk, don't drink alcohol. So there's that. How 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:52.520 did you meet your wife, Um just through the New 0:24:52.600 --> 0:24:56.439 York scene. She met her at a she was doing 0:24:56.520 --> 0:24:59.760 some stage work with Penny Arcade. You know, Penny Arcade 0:24:59.800 --> 0:25:06.280 is m great individual, very insightful person Um just so 0:25:06.359 --> 0:25:10.520 in a in a performance situation. And then you know, 0:25:10.560 --> 0:25:12.880 we were friends for a while. She's terrific. She says, 0:25:12.880 --> 0:25:15.840 she's an actor a couple of films and more theater. 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:19.800 And you have kids. Did you want to have kids 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:22.359 or did she say this is something she wants to do. 0:25:22.600 --> 0:25:25.200 So it just happened. But I kind of always had 0:25:25.240 --> 0:25:27.560 it in the back of my head. I was close 0:25:27.600 --> 0:25:31.399 to my father and mother. I was really close to 0:25:31.480 --> 0:25:36.800 my old man and I you know, I had dreams 0:25:36.840 --> 0:25:44.440 of taking care of small living creatures. Uh. For it 0:25:44.600 --> 0:25:47.680 was kind of a recurrent theme in my dreams. And 0:25:47.760 --> 0:25:50.240 it's just always there. How old your kids to sixteen 0:25:50.280 --> 0:25:53.679 and eighteen? And what have you learned having kids? Forget 0:25:53.720 --> 0:25:58.119 about just you know, just all this stuff that one learns. 0:25:58.160 --> 0:26:04.159 It's a lot of stuff, just how to negotiated to Uh. 0:26:05.680 --> 0:26:09.000 You know, I'm pretty lenient with them. My wife is 0:26:09.080 --> 0:26:12.359 more of the discipline area. But they listen to me. 0:26:12.520 --> 0:26:15.360 It's good. But you know, there's a lot of ups 0:26:15.359 --> 0:26:18.080 and downs with that too. So to what degree are 0:26:18.080 --> 0:26:21.480 you concerned about the future of your two girls. Yeah, considerably, 0:26:21.480 --> 0:26:25.640 you know, because they're still seeking for what they're gonna 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:32.800 do in life. There's that, Then there's the climate. I mean, 0:26:32.840 --> 0:26:37.280 we're you know, okay, financially, I'm lucky in that respect, 0:26:37.920 --> 0:26:42.040 but things are weird. It's a weird time. Well, I 0:26:42.080 --> 0:26:44.840 guess you were an artist. If your two daughters said 0:26:44.840 --> 0:26:46.520 they want to be artists, that's fine with you. Or 0:26:46.520 --> 0:26:48.199 you want them to like to go to college and 0:26:48.240 --> 0:26:50.320 get all that they can do whatever the hell they want, 0:26:50.359 --> 0:26:55.399 you know, that's that's that's it. Yeah, my younger daughter 0:26:55.840 --> 0:27:00.919 has overnights become a real fashionista and this fashion but 0:27:00.960 --> 0:27:03.560 she's always been a graphic artist, and the older one 0:27:03.600 --> 0:27:06.040 had it's done a bunch of filmmaking and know this 0:27:06.160 --> 0:27:08.720 how to work final cut really well and that kind 0:27:08.760 --> 0:27:11.360 of stuff. Okay, you talked about the ups and downs 0:27:11.359 --> 0:27:13.960 of the money, you know, having to sell your apartment, 0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:17.719 et cetera. So how's the money today We're doing okay? 0:27:17.760 --> 0:27:21.240 You know, we did a deal with merk with Hypnosis, 0:27:21.280 --> 0:27:25.119 so we sold some aspects and got a you know, 0:27:25.200 --> 0:27:29.920 immediate payback for that, not like Bob Dylan money necessarily, 0:27:30.000 --> 0:27:36.760 but it's okay. Um, you know, I'm not complaining. I'm lucky. 0:27:36.800 --> 0:27:41.280 I mean a fucking privileged situation here, which is weird. 0:27:41.320 --> 0:27:43.119 I mean I never came from any money. My parents 0:27:43.200 --> 0:27:48.359 were just lower middle class. But all this stuff, after 0:27:48.400 --> 0:27:51.280 all this time, I mean, it's quite a while to 0:27:51.400 --> 0:27:57.439 pay off financially for us. So I gotta say I 0:27:57.640 --> 0:27:59.960 go into a little more det tale in my book. 0:28:00.000 --> 0:28:03.000 But you know, we got screwed over in your very 0:28:03.040 --> 0:28:06.359 standard show biz way. So when did you start finally 0:28:06.400 --> 0:28:11.320 seeing the money? Least ten fifteen years? Less ten years maybe? Wow? 0:28:11.920 --> 0:28:14.879 So why did you sell the murk? What was that 0:28:14.920 --> 0:28:20.960 decision about? We were you know, prompted, Uh, he got it, 0:28:21.000 --> 0:28:24.280 gave us a really great multiple, et cetera. That kind 0:28:24.280 --> 0:28:27.520 of not says But I don't know, I probably should 0:28:27.520 --> 0:28:30.080 have held that for more money at this point. It 0:28:30.160 --> 0:28:38.320 was very early on in this um uh moments of 0:28:38.440 --> 0:28:42.840 people selling, you know, but we we held on to 0:28:43.280 --> 0:28:48.440 aspects of the of the catalog of the songs. So 0:28:48.520 --> 0:28:51.240 you know, we're still getting licensing fees and that kind 0:28:51.240 --> 0:28:53.360 of stuff. And what do you do with the money. 0:28:53.480 --> 0:28:57.160 Nothing just sitting there. Um. And we have a nice 0:28:57.160 --> 0:29:00.640 apartment in Manhattan now, and we've got a house up 0:29:00.680 --> 0:29:04.200 in Woodstock. We've always Actually the house of Woodstock was 0:29:04.480 --> 0:29:08.920 financed by Andy Warhol skull paintings that I sold under 0:29:09.000 --> 0:29:12.320 market also, But that's what happens, you know. Okay, how 0:29:12.320 --> 0:29:14.080 did you end up with it? And how did you 0:29:14.120 --> 0:29:17.560 decide to sell it? Wish the paintings. The painting I 0:29:17.600 --> 0:29:21.120 had like four Warhole skulls, you know, I just bought 0:29:21.200 --> 0:29:25.560 him from Andy. Um, probably really cheap. I could have 0:29:25.600 --> 0:29:27.600 brought all that fucking stuff, you know, I could have 0:29:27.600 --> 0:29:30.520 brought all the Maryland's and Elvis's, but I just didn't 0:29:30.600 --> 0:29:33.200 have the foresight. I took it for granted because I 0:29:33.200 --> 0:29:37.800 was around it all the time. And uh I so 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:41.200 I bought four from Andy. I sold two really cheap. 0:29:41.200 --> 0:29:43.200 Early on when I was broke. I mean I was. 0:29:43.360 --> 0:29:46.080 I was broke really a lot. Because I'm not gonna 0:29:46.080 --> 0:29:48.080 go into all the details. It's in the book. You'll 0:29:48.120 --> 0:29:51.240 read all the details in the book. But I was 0:29:52.000 --> 0:29:57.120 didn't you know, I was in financial distress for quite 0:29:57.120 --> 0:29:59.720 a while. And then in later years I sold the 0:30:00.120 --> 0:30:04.440 in two of the skull paintings, and that helped finance 0:30:04.560 --> 0:30:07.520 the house up in Woodstock. But I what I do 0:30:07.640 --> 0:30:11.320 have still is the actual skull that Andy painted. I 0:30:11.400 --> 0:30:15.520 have the actual physical human skull in my collection of 0:30:15.760 --> 0:30:19.600 weird stuff. So did you sell those other two primarily 0:30:19.640 --> 0:30:23.040 to buy the house? Yeah? Just yes, But yeah, because 0:30:23.120 --> 0:30:25.520 who was that. We were very close to nine eleven 0:30:26.080 --> 0:30:29.640 when that happened, and you know, I probably should have 0:30:30.680 --> 0:30:33.400 looked around the city for a cheap town house at 0:30:33.400 --> 0:30:37.160 that point, but because there everybody was, you know, running 0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:43.120 for it. But we did want to. We had made 0:30:43.240 --> 0:30:45.760 a bunch of trips up to Woodstock, and we knew 0:30:45.760 --> 0:30:49.240 people from the film community up there, and I have 0:30:49.240 --> 0:30:52.600 have old friends up there, you know a lot of 0:30:52.600 --> 0:30:57.360 the community. Um, So we just kind of wanted to 0:30:57.400 --> 0:31:00.680 get the country life thing out of our system. So 0:31:00.760 --> 0:31:02.440 we did that. We were up there for like ten years, 0:31:02.440 --> 0:31:05.280 pretty much straight straight through. Okay, so you say you 0:31:05.400 --> 0:31:08.400 have the original skull? Are you a collector? I'm not 0:31:08.400 --> 0:31:10.880 talking about collector like going to art basil. I'm talking 0:31:10.880 --> 0:31:12.440 about do you have all this stuff? Do you have 0:31:12.480 --> 0:31:15.720 all the memorabilia from Blondie? I have a lot of stuff. Yes, 0:31:15.760 --> 0:31:17.600 I have a lot of stuff. I have a really 0:31:17.640 --> 0:31:24.120 great knife collection. I collect knives, military, American custom knives, 0:31:24.440 --> 0:31:27.840 and very knowledgeable in the knife world. And I know 0:31:27.880 --> 0:31:29.880 a lot of the old knife makers. It's a very 0:31:29.960 --> 0:31:33.160 niche fucking thing. I write about it in the book. 0:31:33.760 --> 0:31:37.680 Um it's what it is. How did you get into knives? Well, 0:31:37.720 --> 0:31:39.760 my old man took me to army and Navy stories 0:31:39.760 --> 0:31:41.440 when as a kid, and I think that's where it 0:31:42.480 --> 0:31:46.160 started out. He put me a couple of knives early on. Um, 0:31:46.280 --> 0:31:48.200 it just it just went from there. And then in 0:31:48.280 --> 0:31:51.200 the early in the seventies, not the early seventies, but 0:31:51.320 --> 0:31:55.400 in the you know, mid late seventies when we were 0:31:55.520 --> 0:32:00.320 doing the band thing, I started seeing the American custom knife, 0:32:00.760 --> 0:32:03.800 which was in its infancy at that point. But I 0:32:03.960 --> 0:32:07.360 just found it fascinating and all these things connected up, 0:32:07.640 --> 0:32:09.480 and I started going to the knife shows in New 0:32:09.560 --> 0:32:12.080 York all the time, and I met all the guys, 0:32:12.120 --> 0:32:16.440 all these great makers. Um, it's it's still going on. 0:32:16.520 --> 0:32:19.840 It's a it's a it's a pretty big scene. Still. 0:32:20.000 --> 0:32:21.760 How many knowledge do you think you have? And where 0:32:21.760 --> 0:32:24.200 are they? Thousands there? You know, put away, Some of 0:32:24.200 --> 0:32:28.520 them are put away, some out on display, but not 0:32:28.800 --> 0:32:31.560 a lot, A lot of them are just in storage. Okay, 0:32:31.640 --> 0:32:34.400 So where do you grow up Brooklyn and your parents 0:32:34.520 --> 0:32:37.320 their parents were from the Old Country or how long 0:32:37.400 --> 0:32:40.280 was your family here. My old man came from Russia 0:32:40.400 --> 0:32:44.960 when he was probably, um, you know, five six years old. 0:32:45.600 --> 0:32:50.920 My mom was born here. I think her. Maybe my grandfather, 0:32:51.040 --> 0:32:53.800 my maternal grandfather, may have been born out of the country, 0:32:53.800 --> 0:32:57.960 but I think my grandmother was born here. I you know, 0:32:58.000 --> 0:33:02.640 I traced a bunch of this lineage recently. I just 0:33:03.160 --> 0:33:07.120 very recently had a guy from Germany and cousin get 0:33:07.160 --> 0:33:09.000 in touch with me through one of the DNA things 0:33:09.000 --> 0:33:11.160 that I had done, and he had a bunch of 0:33:11.440 --> 0:33:13.200 facts that I didn't have any had a copy of 0:33:13.240 --> 0:33:17.360 my old man's birth certificate, which um, I don't know 0:33:17.400 --> 0:33:24.240 when it was made, and interesting stuff. My old my 0:33:24.320 --> 0:33:27.160 father had the same birthday as my older daughter, which 0:33:27.200 --> 0:33:31.040 we were all taken back by. Right. So it's unusual 0:33:31.240 --> 0:33:34.040 for a Jewish boy to be named Chris. I had 0:33:34.120 --> 0:33:36.400 kids coming up to me when I was a kid 0:33:36.440 --> 0:33:38.720 and saying, it's a weird name for a jew boy 0:33:39.160 --> 0:33:42.360 ivan back then, you know, but I think it may 0:33:42.400 --> 0:33:47.760 have my parents may have been trying to bypass some 0:33:47.880 --> 0:33:50.880 aspects of anti Semitism that they may have been confronted with. 0:33:51.080 --> 0:33:54.480 And on your birth certificate is it Christopher or Christopher? 0:33:54.680 --> 0:33:57.520 And you grow up and once again, what are your 0:33:57.560 --> 0:34:00.760 parents do all day? My father was a salesman and 0:34:00.840 --> 0:34:05.600 a frustrated writer. Um. He had been a labor organizer briefly. 0:34:06.360 --> 0:34:09.880 I think that's part of the FBI story. You know, 0:34:10.400 --> 0:34:13.799 I know those guys they told me. My mom told 0:34:13.800 --> 0:34:17.520 me that they met in the party in Syracuse, New York. 0:34:18.239 --> 0:34:21.960 So you know, uh, it's kind of all. I wish 0:34:21.960 --> 0:34:24.920 I had questioned them more about it, but I didn't. 0:34:24.960 --> 0:34:27.200 You know, again, I took it all for granted when 0:34:27.200 --> 0:34:29.719 I was a kid. But my mother was a really 0:34:29.719 --> 0:34:33.960 great painter, and I just don't have a lot of 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:36.040 her stuff left. I have a handful of her work. 0:34:36.200 --> 0:34:39.080 Most of it got, you know, as we got booted 0:34:39.080 --> 0:34:44.560 out of different environments. That got the discarded all by 0:34:44.560 --> 0:34:47.680 the wayside. But during her heyday, was this just a 0:34:47.760 --> 0:34:50.040 passion or did she actually sell someone her work? No, 0:34:50.120 --> 0:34:52.560 I don't think she ever sold. She was a window 0:34:52.600 --> 0:34:56.279 designer in the forties. She told me she knew decooning 0:34:56.360 --> 0:35:00.120 a little in downtown. Um, She used to do some 0:35:00.200 --> 0:35:02.200 of the Lord and Taylors and some of those big 0:35:02.200 --> 0:35:04.880 windows right around the around the same period that Dolly 0:35:05.040 --> 0:35:08.080 was doing windows in Manhattan too, So I mean she 0:35:08.200 --> 0:35:11.240 was successful with that. And she was a really great 0:35:12.880 --> 0:35:18.600 abstract impressionist painter, but you know, picasso Esque in some places, 0:35:18.640 --> 0:35:23.640 but also experimental and others. But I have a handful 0:35:23.680 --> 0:35:28.040 of her things. Do you think that her identity and 0:35:28.080 --> 0:35:30.680 her you know, the things around, is that what Drew 0:35:30.920 --> 0:35:35.080 drove you to be an artist? Yeah? I mean, you know, 0:35:35.160 --> 0:35:39.800 she was my dad. My dad died when I was fifteen, 0:35:40.320 --> 0:35:47.319 so that was early on the dramatic and um, she 0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:51.400 was very permissive and she let all my friends gather 0:35:51.520 --> 0:35:54.600 at my house and hang around and jam and smoke 0:35:54.680 --> 0:35:59.120 weed and it was, you know, nice period. But I 0:35:59.160 --> 0:36:05.720 was called up in the sixties and moved gravitated towards 0:36:05.960 --> 0:36:09.000 the music culture. You said you were very close to 0:36:09.040 --> 0:36:11.320 your father. What did that look like. It must have 0:36:11.320 --> 0:36:13.680 been very painful when he passed. Yeah, yeah, no, it 0:36:13.680 --> 0:36:16.319 took me a while too. I like, I can you know, 0:36:16.360 --> 0:36:21.120 I just kind of complete breakdown when I was nineteen. 0:36:21.320 --> 0:36:25.279 That was probably spurred on as it was part of that, 0:36:25.680 --> 0:36:30.600 you know, processing his death, which I probably hadn't reacted to, 0:36:31.520 --> 0:36:35.839 and taking acid in all the general you know, melt 0:36:35.880 --> 0:36:38.080 down to the sixties. What did the breakdown look like? 0:36:38.200 --> 0:36:40.239 I want? I wanted up in a nuthouse for you know, 0:36:40.360 --> 0:36:43.719 in a Beth Israel for three months. Did but I 0:36:43.760 --> 0:36:46.320 got a lot of benefits out of it, so I was, Okay, 0:36:46.440 --> 0:36:51.240 we've got welfare. I got, uh, the remainder might stay 0:36:51.280 --> 0:36:55.040 in art school, paid for by the Division of Vocational Rehabilitation, 0:36:55.560 --> 0:36:58.200 so you know, it wasn't total loss. So what kind 0:36:58.200 --> 0:37:02.279 of kids were you in school? Good student, student, popular, unpopular? No, 0:37:02.440 --> 0:37:06.080 I was just kind of fringe nerd kid. I don't 0:37:06.200 --> 0:37:11.280 think I was. I certainly wasn't a good student. Um. 0:37:11.400 --> 0:37:14.799 I was indifferent to school. I didn't like school at all. 0:37:15.400 --> 0:37:20.279 I fight and then getting this is my whole biography here. 0:37:21.040 --> 0:37:24.440 Um I got thrown out of Midwood High School for 0:37:24.520 --> 0:37:28.520 having long hair in nineteen The fucking dean rounded up 0:37:28.560 --> 0:37:30.640 me and my two or three friends and he said, 0:37:30.680 --> 0:37:32.880 you guys are gonna be a crossing the street and 0:37:32.920 --> 0:37:34.560 your hair is gonna blow in front of your eyes 0:37:34.560 --> 0:37:36.400 and you get hit by a car and you have 0:37:36.480 --> 0:37:39.960 to get a hair cut before you come back. And 0:37:40.200 --> 0:37:43.280 I was really happy and felt very liberated to leave. 0:37:44.040 --> 0:37:49.319 And I, um, they did, somebody from the school, but 0:37:49.480 --> 0:37:53.440 right at that moment, all those civil rights cases were 0:37:53.440 --> 0:37:56.360 coming up about long hair. So somebody actually called me 0:37:56.400 --> 0:37:58.080 from the school and said, okay, you can come back 0:37:58.280 --> 0:38:01.520 and you won't have to take jim and everything's okay. 0:38:01.560 --> 0:38:05.120 But meanwhile, my mother found a very cheap private school 0:38:05.560 --> 0:38:09.120 uptown in Manhattan. So I wound up finishing high school there, 0:38:09.160 --> 0:38:11.759 which was great. And you graduate from high school and 0:38:11.760 --> 0:38:15.400 then one then I went to San Francisco, played music 0:38:15.440 --> 0:38:21.200 with my friends, started a little later dabbling in photography, 0:38:21.760 --> 0:38:23.920 all this stuff, A lot of a lot of stuff. 0:38:23.960 --> 0:38:26.640 You mentioned art school. How does that fit in. I 0:38:26.719 --> 0:38:28.600 was in the School of Visual Arts. Well, that was 0:38:28.960 --> 0:38:33.200 that that was financed by the city as a results 0:38:33.200 --> 0:38:38.040 of my being insane, which was great, and um my 0:38:39.160 --> 0:38:44.960 last year, I guess there I last year. At two years, 0:38:45.840 --> 0:38:48.600 you know, I started seeing flyers in the lobby for 0:38:48.680 --> 0:38:51.600 this thing called the New York Dolls, which I initially 0:38:51.600 --> 0:38:54.240 thought was a drag act. But then when I finally 0:38:54.239 --> 0:38:56.680 saw something in the Village Voice about these guys are 0:38:56.680 --> 0:38:59.640 really great and the singers like Mick Jagger. I went 0:38:59.719 --> 0:39:02.279 to see them. I fell in with this other band 0:39:02.280 --> 0:39:05.160 called the Magic Tramps, who got a shout out in 0:39:05.239 --> 0:39:09.919 that Miserable Vinyl TV show. And oddly enough, because they're 0:39:10.080 --> 0:39:13.719 very unknown and never really recorded, Eric Emerson was the 0:39:13.880 --> 0:39:16.400 lead singer. He was a Warhol superstar. I fell in 0:39:16.400 --> 0:39:20.239 with those guys. I played with them, was part of 0:39:20.239 --> 0:39:23.960 their entourage, and did a roadies situation with them, on 0:39:24.160 --> 0:39:27.480 and on, and then that led into meeting Debbie and 0:39:27.520 --> 0:39:30.160 then then well that happened. Okay, a little bit slower. 0:39:30.200 --> 0:39:33.360 You graduate from high school, you know, your father has passed. 0:39:33.440 --> 0:39:35.720 What are you doing for money? My mom had whatever 0:39:35.800 --> 0:39:40.919 insurance or security stuff. Uh, but you know, I don't 0:39:40.960 --> 0:39:43.279 know how the hell we got by. She managed to 0:39:43.680 --> 0:39:46.799 pull together enough income. We moved out of our ancestral 0:39:46.840 --> 0:39:50.120 home and moved to an apartment in Brooklyn that was smaller. 0:39:50.440 --> 0:39:55.560 That's when we lost a lot of her paintings. Uh, 0:39:55.680 --> 0:39:59.840 but you know, we managed to get by and still 0:40:00.480 --> 0:40:04.560 enough money to financed a couple of trips to California 0:40:04.600 --> 0:40:07.439 for me. Okay, so the first trip that was when 0:40:07.800 --> 0:40:11.840 and what was going on there? Went to streets somewhere loved. Okay, 0:40:11.840 --> 0:40:14.560 so you saw something love and you said I gotta go. Yeah, yeah, 0:40:14.719 --> 0:40:17.840 for sure. I heard the song you know flowers in 0:40:17.880 --> 0:40:23.359 your Hair like, yeah, I remember. So did you hitchhike there? No? No, 0:40:23.400 --> 0:40:27.480 I uh. The first time I drove out with buddies 0:40:27.520 --> 0:40:30.799 with older guys from my Brooklyn neighborhood, which was a 0:40:30.880 --> 0:40:37.560 nice road trip with some anecdotes and around that. Um. 0:40:37.719 --> 0:40:43.239 Then I got to l A the weekend of Monterey Pop. Well, 0:40:43.239 --> 0:40:45.279 I was so horny to go to San Francisco. I 0:40:45.320 --> 0:40:48.239 didn't fucking go, and I always regretted that going to 0:40:48.280 --> 0:40:51.279 Battery Pop. But I did go right up. I went 0:40:51.360 --> 0:40:56.040 up to h I went to Saronisco at a reasonably 0:40:56.080 --> 0:40:58.360 good time there for a bunch of weeks, and I 0:40:58.360 --> 0:41:04.719 went back to Brooklyn. I think, Um, I don't know 0:41:04.719 --> 0:41:08.200 if I started up art school in that year in between, 0:41:08.280 --> 0:41:12.439 but I went to I probably I may have been 0:41:12.480 --> 0:41:16.320 my first year at art school in that year in between. 0:41:16.719 --> 0:41:21.239 I went back to San Francisco and summer nine, they 0:41:21.600 --> 0:41:25.480 cracked up completely from taking acid too much, all this 0:41:25.600 --> 0:41:30.080 kind of stuff. Heard weird things in the White album, 0:41:30.280 --> 0:41:33.080 the same as a lot of other people. All of 0:41:33.280 --> 0:41:38.879 you know, it was I was microcosmo of the macrocosm, 0:41:39.040 --> 0:41:41.560 as they say, what were you doing in San Francisco? 0:41:42.040 --> 0:41:45.160 And where were you sleeping? With friends who had were 0:41:45.760 --> 0:41:50.040 had inhabited a big house there, people I knew and 0:41:50.200 --> 0:41:52.360 people I was. I mean, I got off the I 0:41:52.400 --> 0:41:54.200 got off the bus the first time I was there 0:41:54.200 --> 0:41:57.600 in sixty seven, got off the bus, walked across the 0:41:57.640 --> 0:42:01.680 street into a party. People were dancing to Lucy and 0:42:01.719 --> 0:42:05.840 the Sky with Diamonds true story. Walked into the kitchen. 0:42:06.600 --> 0:42:09.040 I had a joint. I started smoking with some kid. 0:42:09.400 --> 0:42:11.160 He said, who are you? I said to me, you know, 0:42:11.239 --> 0:42:13.400 blah blah blah. I wound up. He said, oh, you 0:42:13.400 --> 0:42:15.160 can stay at my house, you know, any place to stay. 0:42:15.400 --> 0:42:18.160 It was like that, very easy. Okay, well, you know 0:42:18.600 --> 0:42:21.360 the summer of love and then everybody goes in sixty 0:42:21.400 --> 0:42:24.440 eight and the media portrays it is negative. What was 0:42:24.480 --> 0:42:27.440 your experience like once in a lifetime great or you know, 0:42:27.480 --> 0:42:29.480 I just happened to be there. So so it got 0:42:29.600 --> 0:42:32.840 dark later on, you know, I mean I started seeing 0:42:33.640 --> 0:42:37.920 elements of darkness and predatory people surrounding all this stuff, 0:42:38.320 --> 0:42:42.799 even even probably in sixty seven. But yeah, there was 0:42:42.920 --> 0:42:46.840 it was by by by sixty eight, it was on 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:49.759 the way, you know, it was the flood gates had opened. 0:42:57.320 --> 0:43:00.759 So obviously music is everything in that era. When did 0:43:00.800 --> 0:43:04.120 you start playing an instrument when that I had been 0:43:04.120 --> 0:43:08.520 playing guitar for when I was twelves before the Beatles. 0:43:08.600 --> 0:43:11.880 What motivated to folk music? Yes, and just being attracted 0:43:11.920 --> 0:43:14.160 to it. The electric guitar, The essence of the electric 0:43:14.160 --> 0:43:18.319 guitar was fascinating to me, and I, you know, I 0:43:18.360 --> 0:43:24.040 would see occasionally one in Brooklyn and looking a basement 0:43:24.040 --> 0:43:26.040 window and there will be some guy with playing a 0:43:26.040 --> 0:43:29.080 fancy electric guitar, and that was very interesting to me. 0:43:29.120 --> 0:43:32.080 And then you know, I was aware of some of 0:43:32.080 --> 0:43:35.960 those twiny songs that were on the radio and that 0:43:36.040 --> 0:43:42.359 kind of stuff. Um uh. I always West Side Story 0:43:42.440 --> 0:43:46.480 was such a huge influence on me and everybody, and 0:43:46.560 --> 0:43:50.480 I feel like it pumped up a lot of people 0:43:50.560 --> 0:43:56.480 for the British invasion later on. People don't get what 0:43:56.520 --> 0:43:59.000 a big deal West Side Story was for the kids 0:43:59.040 --> 0:44:02.000 back then. Well, so all you know the original soundtrack, 0:44:02.080 --> 0:44:05.839 original Broadway soundtrack. Did you see the new West Side Story? No, I, 0:44:05.920 --> 0:44:08.880 you know, I was really kind of hyped for it. 0:44:09.000 --> 0:44:11.160 But then it sort of gradually fizzled out, and now 0:44:11.160 --> 0:44:13.200 I'm not I don't know if I give you ship 0:44:13.520 --> 0:44:15.520 at this point. Yeah, I don't really feel that way. 0:44:15.520 --> 0:44:18.319 And I'm not a huge Spielberg fan anyway. So did 0:44:18.400 --> 0:44:20.239 you play in bands in high school? Were you any 0:44:20.280 --> 0:44:23.520 good playing with bands and playing My friends, we've famously 0:44:23.600 --> 0:44:26.240 opened up for the Velvet Underground in the nineteen sixty 0:44:26.640 --> 0:44:31.600 seven at a place called the Gymnasium. I had a buddy. 0:44:33.480 --> 0:44:37.880 I had a buddy, this guy, Joey Freeman, who I 0:44:37.960 --> 0:44:40.000 grew up with. I knew him for me. He was 0:44:40.560 --> 0:44:43.439 he was maybe a year younger than me, but I've 0:44:43.440 --> 0:44:46.680 known him for you know, fifty odd years. He worked 0:44:46.719 --> 0:44:49.960 for Andy, for the factory. And he showed up my house. 0:44:50.040 --> 0:44:52.800 I mean, we all knew he was associated with Andy, 0:44:52.880 --> 0:44:55.160 and he showed up my house one day in Brooklyn 0:44:55.400 --> 0:44:57.000 and he said, listen, there was an opening act for 0:44:57.040 --> 0:44:59.560 the Velvets, and we all know who they were, of course, 0:45:00.160 --> 0:45:02.480 and they open the act, didn't show up, would you 0:45:02.480 --> 0:45:05.400 guys do it? So we brought our guitars on the 0:45:05.440 --> 0:45:08.600 subway and went up uptown. I think it's in the 0:45:08.600 --> 0:45:13.960 East seventies. This old Polish Hall, and we opened up 0:45:13.960 --> 0:45:17.200 for the Velvets and Marine Tucker let us turn her 0:45:17.200 --> 0:45:19.399 bass drum right side up, you know, because she played 0:45:19.440 --> 0:45:23.719 it like a like a timpany, you know. And we 0:45:23.760 --> 0:45:26.239 did a little set and it was hardly anybody there. 0:45:27.840 --> 0:45:30.200 After this set, you know, somebody came up and said, oh, 0:45:30.239 --> 0:45:34.040 Andy thinks you're really great, and that was nice. And 0:45:34.680 --> 0:45:39.000 Velvets were great. They were awesome and powerful. That was it, 0:45:39.320 --> 0:45:43.640 you know, hanging with famous people as a thing unto itself, 0:45:44.120 --> 0:45:48.399 which most people never experience. When they experience, they either 0:45:48.480 --> 0:45:52.280 become tongue tied or become fan boys or fan girls. 0:45:52.280 --> 0:45:54.680 And that doesn't work. You know. You talk about, you know, 0:45:54.719 --> 0:45:56.960 I meeting Andy, you know, are you just kind of 0:45:57.000 --> 0:45:59.000 an artist? You just kind of go with the flow 0:45:59.040 --> 0:46:01.640 and it fits. I mean where you say, hey, this 0:46:01.800 --> 0:46:04.120 he was already Andy Warhol when your battle. Well, no, 0:46:04.239 --> 0:46:06.600 I mean I had been seeing Andy since I was 0:46:06.640 --> 0:46:09.000 a little kid on TV. I mean I saw him 0:46:09.000 --> 0:46:13.359 on David Suskind or whatever that was. So I mean 0:46:13.400 --> 0:46:17.440 I was aware that always. And Andy was you know, 0:46:19.120 --> 0:46:22.040 very high up there in the ether, but he was 0:46:22.080 --> 0:46:25.320 also close to the streets. So there was this He 0:46:25.680 --> 0:46:30.640 managed to negotiate this position that he was in. Everybody 0:46:30.680 --> 0:46:33.200 in New York who was in any kind of the 0:46:33.280 --> 0:46:36.200 arts had some connection to Andy one way or the others, 0:46:36.239 --> 0:46:39.720 and that started out. That whole thing started out earlier 0:46:39.760 --> 0:46:42.040 for me, I think, I mean later on. Yeah, I 0:46:42.160 --> 0:46:46.840 frequently star struck. Um. I met Peter Dinklage in a 0:46:46.880 --> 0:46:52.160 gas station and he was charming and really nice and 0:46:52.160 --> 0:46:55.440 and being in my position is great. It's like being 0:46:55.480 --> 0:46:57.239 a Mason or something because I can just go up 0:46:57.239 --> 0:47:00.120 to anybody in show business and go high, it's me 0:47:00.160 --> 0:47:03.600 from Blondie and they Okay, yeah, it's you. That's a 0:47:03.640 --> 0:47:08.000 really great thing. Debbie and me met Liz Taylor when 0:47:08.520 --> 0:47:11.160 she was on Broadway for the first time. Our buddy 0:47:11.280 --> 0:47:15.080 Dennis Christopher was in The Little Foxes with her. That 0:47:15.280 --> 0:47:19.720 was memorable. Um, Milton Burrow gave me a big kiss. 0:47:21.080 --> 0:47:24.080 We were at a George Burns. We met George Burns 0:47:24.360 --> 0:47:30.839 several times and we were at some uh toasting situation 0:47:30.920 --> 0:47:33.640 for him, and Milton Burrow was the MC and we 0:47:33.680 --> 0:47:36.319 got dragged out on stage and he grabbed my head 0:47:36.320 --> 0:47:38.400 and give me a big kiss on the lifts in 0:47:38.440 --> 0:47:41.040 front of the whole audience, which is pretty nice. There's 0:47:41.040 --> 0:47:42.879 not many people can say that. So if you talk 0:47:42.920 --> 0:47:47.280 about all the characters in the Factory, Joe Dallassandro, Dy whatever, 0:47:47.320 --> 0:47:49.360 did you know all that? No, not a lot. No, 0:47:49.480 --> 0:47:52.439 because we were We didn't hook up early on with Andy. 0:47:52.560 --> 0:47:56.880 He was in the third Factory by the time. We 0:47:56.880 --> 0:48:00.120 were seeing him frequently more in the eighties, right from 0:48:00.160 --> 0:48:06.600 around on. Um, I know Joe Moore from online and 0:48:06.640 --> 0:48:10.400 talking to him online in this period. So how do 0:48:10.440 --> 0:48:12.759 you meet Debby? I went, I went to a show 0:48:12.840 --> 0:48:15.319 that they were doing with her girl trio thing called 0:48:15.320 --> 0:48:18.640 the Stilettos, and I went to their first show at 0:48:18.640 --> 0:48:23.200 a bar on twenty four Street, I think, and uh, 0:48:23.320 --> 0:48:25.640 that was it. And I was very taken with her 0:48:25.719 --> 0:48:30.960 because she was very magnetic and beautiful. And um, I 0:48:32.160 --> 0:48:35.120 they had they only had rotating musicians in their band, 0:48:35.160 --> 0:48:37.640 and I as soon as I would say well, I 0:48:37.680 --> 0:48:41.000 signed up with the band and became the first permanent member. 0:48:41.200 --> 0:48:45.400 You remember what year? That was? Seventy three. So seventy three, 0:48:46.000 --> 0:48:49.000 the Dolls get their deal, They make their first record 0:48:49.040 --> 0:48:51.799 for Mercury, gets a lot of hype. Doesn't happen the 0:48:51.880 --> 0:48:57.360 Ramons albums the first one, Yeah, maybe I'm I can't 0:48:57.480 --> 0:49:00.799 maybe say Clive or six? Yeah, maybe said five. So 0:49:00.880 --> 0:49:03.040 what was the scene like? You know, you went to 0:49:03.040 --> 0:49:06.520 see Debbie's bean Stiletto, But what other acts were going 0:49:06.520 --> 0:49:09.040 in seventy three? By the late seventies, the whole different world. 0:49:09.400 --> 0:49:11.920 But what's the scene like in the early seventies teenage 0:49:12.040 --> 0:49:16.520 lust here, teenage lust. There was three Girls and the sky. 0:49:16.640 --> 0:49:22.320 Harold Um. I knew Tommy Ramon from Mercer Arts Center, 0:49:23.320 --> 0:49:27.000 from a band called Butch, And when we started playing 0:49:27.000 --> 0:49:31.239 a cb GEVs, he approached me and said, I heard 0:49:31.280 --> 0:49:34.440 you found a place to play downtown. He meant cb 0:49:34.560 --> 0:49:37.520 g VS, and I have this band called the Ramons, 0:49:38.400 --> 0:49:41.080 and we played with their owns at their first gig 0:49:41.600 --> 0:49:47.080 at CBGVS, which I've only figured out recently because all 0:49:47.120 --> 0:49:52.160 these dates are out there in the world. But that happened, Um, 0:49:52.520 --> 0:49:55.120 you know, and but early on, you know, Eric Emerson, 0:49:55.560 --> 0:50:01.120 Magic Trams, teenage lust bands. I'm not forgetting. I'm not remembering. Rather, 0:50:02.120 --> 0:50:07.799 loth are in the hand people of silver apples, right, 0:50:08.080 --> 0:50:12.000 silver apples. Those guys were around a little earlier. Um. 0:50:12.040 --> 0:50:14.920 Suicide was around for a long time that you know 0:50:15.000 --> 0:50:17.840 all day I think even pre date the Dolts a 0:50:17.880 --> 0:50:20.480 little bit. So what were you living on? Then? Welfare 0:50:20.760 --> 0:50:24.440 was very helpful. That was pretty much it. Occasional odd jobs, 0:50:24.480 --> 0:50:28.520 but mostly welfare. Okay, so you go to see stiletto 0:50:28.840 --> 0:50:31.960 you're struck by Debbie. How do you introduce yourself and 0:50:32.040 --> 0:50:34.680 what do you say? Well? I knew one of the 0:50:34.719 --> 0:50:39.239 other girls, One of the other girls in Stilettos was 0:50:39.800 --> 0:50:44.920 one of Eric Emerson's girlfriends, and they had a kid together, 0:50:45.560 --> 0:50:49.279 and it was all very incestuous actually, so you know, 0:50:49.360 --> 0:50:51.600 I I don't know how much I spoke to her 0:50:51.600 --> 0:50:56.359 that first night, but soon after I joined up as 0:50:56.400 --> 0:50:59.000 their guitar player. Well you how to sell yourself, right? 0:50:59.040 --> 0:51:01.279 What was your pitch? Well, we were working together at 0:51:01.280 --> 0:51:03.359 that point and we just you see them. You know, 0:51:03.400 --> 0:51:05.840 you're a peripheral character. How do you say, no, you 0:51:05.920 --> 0:51:09.400 need me in the band? I was probably more of 0:51:09.560 --> 0:51:14.000 the two elder the other girl, Eric's girlfriend that because 0:51:14.040 --> 0:51:18.720 she was kind of the leader, the default leader, because 0:51:18.920 --> 0:51:23.280 she had the loft that they were rehearsed again. Um, 0:51:23.480 --> 0:51:28.719 but Debbie's claims to have been had some notice of 0:51:28.840 --> 0:51:31.400 me and some attraction early on too, because I had 0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:33.200 really long hair and I where I make up of 0:51:33.239 --> 0:51:36.600 the whole fucking other image. I might have been more striking, 0:51:36.640 --> 0:51:39.839 I don't know. And how long after you met her 0:51:39.920 --> 0:51:42.400 to turn into a romance? A few months? We were 0:51:42.680 --> 0:51:45.319 friends here, a couple of months, maybe maybe a month, 0:51:45.400 --> 0:51:48.680 maybe one month, two months somewhere in there. Now she's 0:51:48.680 --> 0:51:51.520 spent five years older than you. That that's unusual. Back, 0:51:52.000 --> 0:51:53.800 did you notice that or you know you're in the 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:56.200 downtown SENI who cares, No, she looked like she was 0:51:56.280 --> 0:51:58.840 a little kid when she was thirty. She looked like 0:51:58.960 --> 0:52:00.759 she was nineteen. Yeah, believe me, I know. I just 0:52:00.800 --> 0:52:02.920 want to know what was going through your head. Okay, 0:52:03.480 --> 0:52:05.839 So now you're part of the group which has got 0:52:05.920 --> 0:52:08.239 free flowed. When do you start having a plan or 0:52:08.320 --> 0:52:10.359 is there never a plan? No? It was I mean, 0:52:10.600 --> 0:52:14.000 you know, the dolls going out in the world and 0:52:14.160 --> 0:52:16.440 not succeeding, or at least going out in America and 0:52:16.520 --> 0:52:21.080 not succeeding, made everybody sort of step back, pull it back. 0:52:21.640 --> 0:52:26.840 So the whole New York music scene for several years 0:52:27.040 --> 0:52:30.400 was just done for each other and the only people 0:52:30.520 --> 0:52:33.480 in the audience were other band members and their entourages, 0:52:33.480 --> 0:52:36.560 and there was you know, a peripheral group of friends. 0:52:37.400 --> 0:52:45.640 But generally it was again pretty incestuous. But it was 0:52:45.719 --> 0:52:47.120 there a plan. I don't know if there was a plan. 0:52:47.239 --> 0:52:50.360 We just worked. I mean the plan was to maybe 0:52:50.760 --> 0:52:53.840 get a record deal, but that was pretty nebulous. I 0:52:53.880 --> 0:52:56.960 don't know if you know how anybody thought that was 0:52:57.040 --> 0:52:59.520 really going to happen. And what were you using for material? 0:52:59.760 --> 0:53:02.440 Even wrote songs that did cover songs, all kinds of stuff, 0:53:02.960 --> 0:53:06.080 but everybody wrote songs. Had you been writing songs previously 0:53:06.239 --> 0:53:08.520 or when did you start to blossom? Now? Most of 0:53:08.719 --> 0:53:11.800 that was done because there was a need for it. 0:53:12.680 --> 0:53:16.920 With the early songs we wrote with the Stilettos, I 0:53:17.000 --> 0:53:19.919 think the only man the big song that we wrote 0:53:20.000 --> 0:53:23.040 in the Stilettos period that carried carried over was in 0:53:23.160 --> 0:53:26.239 the Flesh, that one that was a hit in Australia run. 0:53:26.400 --> 0:53:29.400 So how did it more fit from the Stilettos to Blondie. Well, 0:53:29.440 --> 0:53:31.600 the girls, you know, it was hard to keep maintaining 0:53:31.960 --> 0:53:35.160 a three girls situation where they were all taking turn 0:53:35.320 --> 0:53:38.560 singing leads and stuff like that, and there was you know, 0:53:39.239 --> 0:53:42.840 there was a certain amount of competition involved, and eventually 0:53:42.880 --> 0:53:47.279 we just split off and the band followed Debbie into 0:53:47.400 --> 0:53:51.680 the next incarnation. How did it become the name blondie? 0:53:51.800 --> 0:53:55.400 Debbie died or air blonde one day and and we 0:53:55.480 --> 0:53:59.520 didn't really have a name for a while. And came 0:53:59.760 --> 0:54:02.200 home him and said, all these guys are yelling a 0:54:02.320 --> 0:54:05.839 blondie at me. That really was That was really it? Now, 0:54:06.480 --> 0:54:09.120 how do you end up working at CBGB's. That was 0:54:09.480 --> 0:54:13.640 pretty early? I remember, Um, that was with the Stilettos. 0:54:14.160 --> 0:54:18.600 That was earlier. Um, it was just there, and I 0:54:18.800 --> 0:54:23.440 remember distinctly. I was in the backroom in Maxis, Kansas City, 0:54:24.040 --> 0:54:27.160 which is where people played, and you know, we people 0:54:27.200 --> 0:54:29.880 played at mercer ars. I never I never the Spilettos 0:54:29.920 --> 0:54:32.279 never played at mercer Arts. But we did gigs with 0:54:32.360 --> 0:54:34.040 the dolls and played the eighty two Club. You know 0:54:34.040 --> 0:54:36.400 what the two Club was? Two Club? I don't know. 0:54:36.719 --> 0:54:41.120 The two Club was an old uh not really a 0:54:41.280 --> 0:54:47.839 drag bar. It was a mafia owned transvestide bar. Um. 0:54:48.960 --> 0:54:52.560 I guess, you know, I don't want to be politically incorrect, 0:54:52.640 --> 0:54:57.240 but but I don't know if it really was dragged 0:54:57.360 --> 0:55:01.120 as such, but it was female impersonator. So I don't 0:55:01.120 --> 0:55:03.960 know if this is you know, I don't being too, kid, 0:55:04.120 --> 0:55:06.839 We'll let you off the hook to offend anybody by 0:55:06.920 --> 0:55:12.520 this terminology. But but it was a great situation there 0:55:12.560 --> 0:55:16.080 were It was downstairs in a basement. It was this 0:55:16.160 --> 0:55:20.400 old mafia run club. There were photos in there. There 0:55:20.440 --> 0:55:23.200 was a photo of Abbott and Costello with a drag 0:55:23.280 --> 0:55:25.560 queen that I was I thought it was the greatest 0:55:25.560 --> 0:55:28.800 fucking art effect that I had seen at that point. 0:55:29.280 --> 0:55:31.640 So we played. We used to play there. There's very 0:55:31.680 --> 0:55:34.080 little information out in the world about the eighties two club. 0:55:34.440 --> 0:55:36.640 It was number eighty two I think Third Street, East 0:55:36.680 --> 0:55:42.360 third Street. Uh, but Seabees. So we were in the 0:55:42.400 --> 0:55:45.160 back room at back to Kansas City and Elda, one 0:55:45.160 --> 0:55:48.879 of the girls from Selettos, showed up and she said, 0:55:48.960 --> 0:55:51.239 I just was downtown in this bar and I saw 0:55:51.239 --> 0:55:52.880 a bunch of guys playing in a band and they 0:55:52.880 --> 0:55:55.600 were all dressed like old men, and she meant television, 0:55:56.360 --> 0:56:00.200 and so we went down to see them, and you know, 0:56:00.239 --> 0:56:02.640 and then we just got in there and started playing. 0:56:03.480 --> 0:56:06.600 We we played at cbt VS every weekend for seven 0:56:06.680 --> 0:56:09.080 months in a row. At one point. Now, the sound 0:56:09.200 --> 0:56:13.719 of Blondie was different from the other acts downtown. I 0:56:13.760 --> 0:56:16.000 mean a lot of them were really punk. Television was 0:56:16.080 --> 0:56:19.840 thinking to itself, was it notable or you're just another 0:56:19.920 --> 0:56:23.440 band doing your thing. It was really diverse musically, I 0:56:23.480 --> 0:56:26.680 mean the bands the out of all the big bands, 0:56:27.400 --> 0:56:30.600 you know, us and the Ramans and talking heads and 0:56:30.760 --> 0:56:34.480 television and that was that's a real big spread of 0:56:34.760 --> 0:56:38.440 sound and styles. And how do you end up with 0:56:38.520 --> 0:56:44.839 Private Stock? Um? Private Stock? I guess right, I guess 0:56:44.920 --> 0:56:49.680 we had gotten our manager at that point and we 0:56:49.840 --> 0:56:52.160 just wound up there. It was early on, you know, 0:56:52.520 --> 0:56:54.840 I don't know. We might have got picked up by 0:56:54.960 --> 0:56:59.160 Sire a little later, I don't know. But Private Stock 0:56:59.280 --> 0:57:02.319 was a weird sort of vanity label for this guy, 0:57:02.719 --> 0:57:06.480 Larry Utall, who used to be with Bell Records, I believe, 0:57:06.600 --> 0:57:10.160 with Marty Thaou and uh Seymour. I think they were 0:57:10.200 --> 0:57:16.520 those guys and open partners. Um. He didn't really have 0:57:16.640 --> 0:57:20.920 a clue as to what to do with the allegedly 0:57:21.000 --> 0:57:24.920 punk act. He you know, they had they had the 0:57:25.080 --> 0:57:28.560 Fifth of Beethoven, remember that, absolutely, that was one of 0:57:28.600 --> 0:57:33.600 their big hits. They had Ship and they had oh god, 0:57:33.640 --> 0:57:37.040 I can't remember now I'm blanket, but they had a 0:57:37.120 --> 0:57:40.440 couple had Peter Lemon, Jello. You know, Peter Lemon Jello 0:57:40.560 --> 0:57:45.320 was absolutely MLR guy. You know, so, I mean that 0:57:45.440 --> 0:57:50.520 was what was on Private Stuck and you know, so 0:57:50.680 --> 0:57:55.040 we were there and then who got bought by chrystalis 0:57:56.320 --> 0:57:58.280 after the first album? They wait wait wait wait wait, 0:57:58.320 --> 0:57:59.960 so slow down a little bit. Who is the manage 0:58:00.000 --> 0:58:02.440 of them leaves? This guy? Peter Leeds? All right, now, 0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:05.000 Peter Leeds was not a good experience or baddocks. No, 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:08.160 it was terrible. But you know because he continued to 0:58:08.240 --> 0:58:11.240 be a manager. So it was terrible because he just 0:58:11.360 --> 0:58:14.880 didn't have good people skills. He had good ideas and 0:58:15.240 --> 0:58:18.560 he but he was just you know, it was just belligerent. 0:58:19.440 --> 0:58:21.800 He would have been better as a CEO, cranky ce 0:58:22.080 --> 0:58:26.160 CEO of something. I think. Okay, so you make these 0:58:26.240 --> 0:58:29.640 two records for Private Stock. Private Stock is there in 0:58:29.680 --> 0:58:32.600 the middle of recording the second one when the negotiations 0:58:33.240 --> 0:58:35.520 commenced with crystalis how do you get hooked up with 0:58:35.640 --> 0:58:44.480 Richard Godderay? He was just around he Um Craig Leon 0:58:46.040 --> 0:58:51.160 was responsible for recording, doing live recordings and CBGBs. At 0:58:51.200 --> 0:58:55.800 one point there was a cbg VS live album done, 0:58:55.840 --> 0:58:58.640 but by that time none of the big bands wanted 0:58:58.680 --> 0:59:01.000 to be on this because everybody it was dealing with 0:59:01.120 --> 0:59:06.400 their own contracts and record labels. So allegedly there are 0:59:06.440 --> 0:59:09.920 all these lost tapes somewhere of you know us in 0:59:10.040 --> 0:59:13.040 television and whatever that we're done with the twenty four 0:59:13.120 --> 0:59:18.360 track truck. So Craig at some point during that was 0:59:18.400 --> 0:59:21.520 approached by Debbie May. I think maybe that's the connection 0:59:21.600 --> 0:59:26.680 with Goda. Craig was hooked up with Gadara. Uh, I 0:59:26.760 --> 0:59:29.000 think that's it. So how did you feel about the 0:59:29.120 --> 0:59:31.960 capturing of your sound? Feel good about it? Bad about it? 0:59:32.280 --> 0:59:33.640 It was good? It was great, you know, I mean, 0:59:33.720 --> 0:59:38.440 just got her ahead. A tremendously different approach than Mike Chapman. 0:59:38.920 --> 0:59:41.600 You know, he was you know, he was just very 0:59:42.800 --> 0:59:46.080 old school. We go in and do the do for 0:59:46.480 --> 0:59:48.760 takes of something and then pick the best one. It 0:59:48.920 --> 0:59:50.760 was kind of like that. Okay, how does it get 0:59:50.840 --> 0:59:54.760 started with crystalis? Then Christmas bought us from private stock. 0:59:54.880 --> 0:59:58.240 You know, that just doesn't happen, you know, Blondie looked 0:59:58.280 --> 1:00:01.560 like it was not going anywhere. How did Crystals even 1:00:01.600 --> 1:00:03.680 get interested? Well, we had that. We had a hit 1:00:04.360 --> 1:00:08.880 within the flesh in Australia. It was a weird. It's 1:00:08.920 --> 1:00:13.520 own weird fluke. Um. You know the story. You know 1:00:13.600 --> 1:00:18.840 the story of that is that Molly Meldrum allegedly played 1:00:19.160 --> 1:00:22.200 in the Flesh, which was the B side of Ex Offender. 1:00:22.760 --> 1:00:26.320 He allegedly played it by mistake on his show. I 1:00:26.600 --> 1:00:28.440 asked him. I don't think it was a mistake. I 1:00:28.480 --> 1:00:31.600 think he knew his audience and that's just the story. 1:00:33.720 --> 1:00:35.240 We also had a video that went with it too, 1:00:35.280 --> 1:00:38.440 which was very early on. So you think that it 1:00:38.600 --> 1:00:41.160 was the action in Australia that got Crystal was interested. 1:00:41.520 --> 1:00:45.520 It was it was encouraging to them that we had 1:00:45.600 --> 1:00:48.760 a number one hit somewhere in the world. I think 1:00:48.800 --> 1:00:51.600 it was part of the package. So you make this switch. 1:00:51.960 --> 1:00:55.040 At some point you switched to ship. Where is that? Um? 1:00:55.400 --> 1:01:00.560 That was pretty much after we had been a established 1:01:01.800 --> 1:01:07.800 I guess it was after Hearted Glass was right. Okay, 1:01:07.880 --> 1:01:11.240 then let's go back. You make this deal with Chris Salis. 1:01:11.840 --> 1:01:15.000 Obviously private stock has to be paid off. Are they 1:01:15.040 --> 1:01:17.800 also paid off out of your own money or theoretical money? 1:01:18.120 --> 1:01:20.720 I don't know, yes, probably, yeah. I mean, you know 1:01:20.800 --> 1:01:25.800 we were we were contracted to Chrysalists to do three 1:01:25.840 --> 1:01:30.040 albums in a year. So we were always in fucking 1:01:30.160 --> 1:01:33.920 arrears with this ship. We never we were always in 1:01:34.040 --> 1:01:37.720 breach of contract with those guys, and that led to 1:01:37.840 --> 1:01:42.120 a lot of stress. Two. I mean, that's partly why 1:01:42.200 --> 1:01:45.160 we're all doing drugs all the time. Elton seems to 1:01:45.200 --> 1:01:47.600 be the only person who actually delivered on those contracts. 1:01:48.360 --> 1:01:50.560 You know, you're having big success, and were they really 1:01:50.640 --> 1:01:52.840 pushing you, Hey, we want three albums a year. No, 1:01:52.960 --> 1:01:56.560 it wasn't pushing, but it was just it was the 1:01:56.640 --> 1:02:00.200 fact that we were always always in default. You know, Oh, okay, 1:02:00.240 --> 1:02:02.360 how do you get hooked up with Mike Chopman. Chapman 1:02:02.760 --> 1:02:09.800 was probably Terry Ellis also leads, but Terry ellis a 1:02:09.840 --> 1:02:11.920 lot and he came to see us at the Whiskey 1:02:12.640 --> 1:02:15.760 and he thought we were funny and amusing, and when 1:02:15.880 --> 1:02:18.680 we met with him, and that was it just you know, well, 1:02:18.760 --> 1:02:20.680 you know that was when he was the Commander. He 1:02:20.760 --> 1:02:22.920 did hit It, Hit It a little later. The Commander 1:02:22.960 --> 1:02:24.600 was a little bit later. But yeah, that was right. 1:02:24.640 --> 1:02:26.360 But I've been trying to say, yeah, it starts then 1:02:26.440 --> 1:02:28.720 and he ends up having Dreamland Records. He really build 1:02:28.840 --> 1:02:31.840 his own reputation on top of Blondie. You said his 1:02:31.960 --> 1:02:35.120 style of working in the studio was different from god Erers. 1:02:35.520 --> 1:02:38.400 What was his style? Well, it was very regimented, you know. 1:02:38.520 --> 1:02:45.000 The um Parallel Lines record was. He was you know, 1:02:45.640 --> 1:02:48.360 quite the taskmaster, which we weren't prepared for, but it was. 1:02:48.720 --> 1:02:51.440 We got great results with that. So how many of 1:02:51.520 --> 1:02:55.520 those songs were either chosen or written when you started 1:02:55.600 --> 1:02:58.520 in the studio There was a probably a budge. I 1:02:58.560 --> 1:03:01.000 don't think any of them were two worked up in 1:03:01.080 --> 1:03:05.560 the studio. Uh, some of them, you know, but the 1:03:05.840 --> 1:03:07.840 like you know, the Heart of Glass demo was floating 1:03:07.880 --> 1:03:11.520 around for forever. There were very various versions of that 1:03:12.200 --> 1:03:14.240 out in the world. So how did it turn into 1:03:14.280 --> 1:03:16.280 the Heart of Glass that we all know? Well, we 1:03:16.400 --> 1:03:20.520 had this, we had the rolland rhythm machine that synchronized 1:03:21.240 --> 1:03:27.160 with this rolland sin. So they went and then had 1:03:28.040 --> 1:03:31.840 this was the days before MIDI. But there was you know, 1:03:33.280 --> 1:03:37.880 trigger electorbal trigger with each other. They spoke to each other. 1:03:38.120 --> 1:03:42.080 So that was part of the putting it together aspect. 1:03:42.320 --> 1:03:44.480 And did you realize it was did you hear in 1:03:44.560 --> 1:03:47.920 the studio and say this is gonna go No, it's 1:03:47.920 --> 1:03:50.640 not really you know, you know, the Parallel Lines was 1:03:50.720 --> 1:03:53.680 on the charts for six months before that was released 1:03:53.720 --> 1:03:58.240 as a single. So I don't know if anybody got 1:03:58.320 --> 1:04:00.680 the idea right away, and who the idea was it 1:04:00.760 --> 1:04:03.880 to get hanging on the telephone. That was me and Debbie. 1:04:04.360 --> 1:04:07.560 Jeffrey Lee Parris right from the Gun Club right had 1:04:07.640 --> 1:04:11.000 given me a mixtape and that's that was on this mixtape. 1:04:11.760 --> 1:04:15.800 And famously we were in Tokyo in a taxi cab 1:04:16.720 --> 1:04:19.760 and I had playing it on a boom box and 1:04:19.880 --> 1:04:22.200 the old cab driver started tapping his fingers on the 1:04:22.240 --> 1:04:25.959 steering wheel and I, okay, this is this is making 1:04:25.960 --> 1:04:29.160 a connection with this guy. There's something to it, But 1:04:29.520 --> 1:04:32.000 I was I just really loved the original version, the 1:04:32.080 --> 1:04:34.480 nerves or and then you know, the vocal on that 1:04:34.720 --> 1:04:38.040 is unbelievable, the way it's shouting it. Was that something 1:04:38.160 --> 1:04:40.000 that Chapman got out of you or did you say, 1:04:40.040 --> 1:04:41.680 this is why we want to do it? Don't know. 1:04:43.080 --> 1:04:46.360 I Chapman with Debbie was I don't think Debbie was 1:04:46.880 --> 1:04:50.640 forced into as much repetition as the band was. I think, 1:04:50.720 --> 1:04:55.160 you know, he tried to get a spontaneous emotional content 1:04:55.280 --> 1:04:57.160 out of her. And how does Fripp end up on 1:04:57.320 --> 1:05:01.400 Fadeaway and radiate. Well, Frippen approached us I think after 1:05:01.480 --> 1:05:03.800 a Palladium gig in New York and we had gotten 1:05:03.840 --> 1:05:06.560 friendly with him. We did and he we did a 1:05:06.640 --> 1:05:09.320 bunch of shows with him, off beat things, so it 1:05:09.400 --> 1:05:12.040 just seemed like a no brainer to ask him. And 1:05:12.160 --> 1:05:15.520 that was that song was kind of weird and experimental anyway, 1:05:15.600 --> 1:05:25.480 phenomenal song. The song I played most still from that album. Okay, 1:05:25.880 --> 1:05:29.800 old history. But to go through that crazy lawsuit with 1:05:29.920 --> 1:05:32.600 Frank and Fante, what the hell's up there? That was 1:05:32.760 --> 1:05:35.080 much later, and that was you know, they just wanted 1:05:35.120 --> 1:05:38.320 to uh, well it was Nigel. Also, they wanted to 1:05:38.480 --> 1:05:45.000 be paid on us moving forward. They got they were 1:05:45.000 --> 1:05:50.040 always paid on their historical connection. They're they're no when 1:05:50.080 --> 1:05:52.560 he's trying to not pay them on this stuff that 1:05:52.640 --> 1:05:56.120 they were they worked on. But we just thought that, 1:05:56.640 --> 1:06:02.080 you know, moving forward, touring whatever, we weren't obliged to 1:06:02.160 --> 1:06:06.480 pay them for uh, just having worked with us in 1:06:06.560 --> 1:06:11.120 the past. It hinged on some very weird legal little point. 1:06:11.800 --> 1:06:14.320 And do you know who Marty Sulfon is, No, he 1:06:14.480 --> 1:06:17.600 was our lawyer. He was. He was great, great character. 1:06:17.760 --> 1:06:22.920 He wrote various legal showbiz textbooks that are in place 1:06:23.160 --> 1:06:28.360 to this day. Um, he nailed the case. I mean, 1:06:28.400 --> 1:06:30.720 none of us really would they had to testify. It 1:06:30.760 --> 1:06:33.600 could have just been him. The judge was the judge 1:06:33.600 --> 1:06:35.400 didn't leave the bench. She just said, Okay, I'm gonna 1:06:35.720 --> 1:06:38.320 I can roll down. But supposedly the press was back 1:06:38.360 --> 1:06:41.520 then that you didn't want Frank to play on the records. 1:06:41.640 --> 1:06:43.840 Is that true? Well, yeah, we all fell out with 1:06:43.880 --> 1:06:46.400 those guys, you know, But no, this was much later. 1:06:46.520 --> 1:06:49.480 This was going into the no exit period. Okay, at 1:06:49.560 --> 1:06:52.720 some point you get hooked up with Sheep. He makes 1:06:52.760 --> 1:06:55.760 the movie Roady Wasn't on Eat to the Beat where 1:06:55.800 --> 1:06:58.480 he made a video for every song, Yes, every song. 1:06:58.520 --> 1:07:00.240 I think we were the first bands of do that. 1:07:00.680 --> 1:07:02.960 I think they can't in it around the same period, 1:07:03.040 --> 1:07:05.240 but I think we were the first one to do 1:07:05.400 --> 1:07:10.520 like a specific setup and working. We sat good bad 1:07:10.600 --> 1:07:13.040 Otherwise it was good up to a point. You know, 1:07:13.280 --> 1:07:15.720 what was the point? Well, we just kind of it 1:07:15.840 --> 1:07:18.000 just all fell apart. But it was a lot to 1:07:18.080 --> 1:07:21.200 do with us being drug addicts. Also, well when you're 1:07:21.240 --> 1:07:24.520 hey day before it fell apart. He is big on 1:07:24.720 --> 1:07:28.320 promotional stuff and by the same token, you were really 1:07:28.400 --> 1:07:32.240 his first step outside after Alice Cooper. So did he 1:07:32.320 --> 1:07:34.480 give enough time? And we're a lot of his things 1:07:34.560 --> 1:07:37.040 helpful or it's just you know, he was better than 1:07:37.080 --> 1:07:39.120 Peter Leeds. No, he was good. He was you know, 1:07:39.280 --> 1:07:42.800 I mean, I liked him. It just ended up unfortunately. 1:07:43.640 --> 1:07:45.600 Uh there we did. We went to a party on 1:07:45.680 --> 1:07:48.600 a tank. He gotta he we We've had some party 1:07:48.680 --> 1:07:52.120 at some club. It might have been a Parallel Lines 1:07:52.400 --> 1:07:56.720 or Auto American release party, and we they rented a 1:07:56.800 --> 1:08:00.320 Sherman tank and we pulled up to the club dried 1:08:00.480 --> 1:08:05.040 a actual tank that was a sheep thing. It was nice. Okay. 1:08:05.520 --> 1:08:08.080 On Eat to the Beat, you know, my favorite song 1:08:08.200 --> 1:08:10.480 on that is the hardest part. Can you tell me 1:08:10.560 --> 1:08:13.240 any backstory there? That was just to do a sort 1:08:13.240 --> 1:08:17.559 of metal funk song. I can't really remember the specific 1:08:17.680 --> 1:08:23.480 inspiration on that excepts stylistically okay, and then Auto American 1:08:23.720 --> 1:08:26.719 has the rap on it. That was the thing. I mean, Actually, 1:08:26.800 --> 1:08:29.800 the only song I really knew was going to be 1:08:29.880 --> 1:08:33.920 a hit even before we recorded it was Tired It's High. 1:08:34.680 --> 1:08:39.840 I just was enamored of the original version and I 1:08:40.000 --> 1:08:42.559 just had but I was aware of our position at 1:08:42.600 --> 1:08:44.519 the time, which was, you know, we were all the 1:08:44.520 --> 1:08:47.200 way up there, and I knew if we recorded this 1:08:47.320 --> 1:08:49.800 well and put it out, it would be successful. By 1:08:49.840 --> 1:08:52.840 the same toke at At this point, reggae has very 1:08:52.920 --> 1:08:55.400 little traction in the marketplace. One could say that you 1:08:55.520 --> 1:08:58.960 broke reggae wide in America. Man, maybe I don't know. 1:08:59.320 --> 1:09:03.600 Then there's the Richard dear a movie and call me 1:09:04.360 --> 1:09:08.680 his build as a debbie herey solo track? Why and 1:09:08.800 --> 1:09:11.000 you feel good or bad about that? Because we went 1:09:11.040 --> 1:09:14.120 in with Georgio and he just didn't want to. You know, 1:09:14.280 --> 1:09:18.280 Georgio was not like Chapman who was willing to um 1:09:20.200 --> 1:09:23.519 oversee the band. He just wanted to. He was very 1:09:23.520 --> 1:09:27.639 He worked very quickly. So we we did our version 1:09:27.800 --> 1:09:30.560 of the stuff. But I'm as far as I know, 1:09:30.680 --> 1:09:32.800 he replaced a lot of the stuff, and some of 1:09:32.880 --> 1:09:36.479 our original parts may have inspired the stuff he replaced 1:09:36.520 --> 1:09:38.320 them with, but I think he used his own guys. 1:09:38.880 --> 1:09:42.280 He just had, you know, to two assistance who did stuff. 1:09:42.280 --> 1:09:45.200 I mean, it's clem clemma is on there for sure. Okay, 1:09:45.760 --> 1:09:47.640 can you put out the next album? And it's a 1:09:47.720 --> 1:09:52.640 stiff relative to expectations? What was that like? It? You know? 1:09:52.800 --> 1:09:58.519 It was this dressing. I guess Um, the cover really sucked. 1:09:58.960 --> 1:10:01.800 We just couldn't get We couldn't get I couldn't get 1:10:01.800 --> 1:10:03.439 it off the ground. The covered. The idea for the 1:10:03.520 --> 1:10:07.120 cover was to have everybody be get like Rick Baker 1:10:07.200 --> 1:10:09.479 or one of these really great makeup guys and have 1:10:09.720 --> 1:10:14.120 everybody be half animal half human and call it The Hunter. Okay, 1:10:14.479 --> 1:10:17.160 but they just couldn't get that ship together, so it 1:10:17.280 --> 1:10:19.960 just wound up being this sort of mediocre photograph. Okay, 1:10:19.960 --> 1:10:23.200 At what point do you realize the album isn't going oh? 1:10:23.880 --> 1:10:27.280 You know. At the same time, ever, we were dealing 1:10:27.360 --> 1:10:30.720 with this drug addiction stuff that was ongoing. We were 1:10:31.840 --> 1:10:36.439 uh doing promotion, and we were working constantly. You know, 1:10:36.600 --> 1:10:38.840 there was a lot of headbutting in the band. I 1:10:38.880 --> 1:10:41.799 mean that's somewhere in there is when we parted with Frankie, 1:10:43.160 --> 1:10:45.680 you know, towards the end there we the very the 1:10:45.800 --> 1:10:51.000 very last tour we did without Frankie. Um, you know, 1:10:51.120 --> 1:10:53.599 it was it was a difficult period. You have any 1:10:53.680 --> 1:10:57.679 conversation with Frankie and Nigel these days, No, No, I didn't. 1:10:57.680 --> 1:10:59.720 I Mean that's why the whole you know, the whole 1:10:59.760 --> 1:11:03.600 Hall of Fame thing was so fucking weird, because I 1:11:03.760 --> 1:11:07.240 hadn't at that point. I hadn't spoken to Frankie for 1:11:07.520 --> 1:11:10.760 twenty years or whatever. And you know, if those guys 1:11:10.840 --> 1:11:13.880 had really wanted to play with us, I might have 1:11:14.080 --> 1:11:17.320 considered it. I mean probably not, but if I had 1:11:17.400 --> 1:11:19.679 heard from them, I might have considered it, you know. Okay, 1:11:20.240 --> 1:11:23.000 So what was it like for the three four years 1:11:23.080 --> 1:11:25.040 we were on top of the world. That was nice. 1:11:25.080 --> 1:11:31.200 I mean I remember Marty Thou coming to our fancy 1:11:31.320 --> 1:11:35.240 house and saying, do you guys realized you can buy 1:11:35.280 --> 1:11:38.360 it if you want, And I hadn't really thought of that, 1:11:39.000 --> 1:11:42.400 and I bought a Tympani. You know, as as I 1:11:42.520 --> 1:11:45.680 frequently say now, the model for a rock star has 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:49.360 changed so much. I really wasn't thinking about buying a 1:11:49.479 --> 1:11:53.000 Rolls Royce and buying a diamond watch or any of 1:11:53.040 --> 1:11:54.760 this kind of nonsense back then, if I you know, 1:11:54.920 --> 1:11:56.559 when I thought about spending money was just to buy 1:11:56.600 --> 1:11:59.120 more guitars and recording equipment. Did you like being on 1:11:59.240 --> 1:12:01.840 the road? Not like being on the road? It was okay, 1:12:01.880 --> 1:12:04.160 it was we were on the road, you know, really 1:12:05.000 --> 1:12:08.080 straight through for several years. I mean, it was just 1:12:08.160 --> 1:12:12.000 almost very little let up between with recording and being 1:12:12.040 --> 1:12:14.600 on the road. It was just it was it was. 1:12:15.960 --> 1:12:18.400 I mean, I'm lucky I was a kid, so I 1:12:18.439 --> 1:12:20.439 could put up with that stuff. Well, some people have 1:12:20.479 --> 1:12:23.960 been around the world and see nothing. And when you 1:12:24.000 --> 1:12:26.920 would travel to these different places, would you take advantage? Yeah, 1:12:26.960 --> 1:12:28.960 sure we go. Yeah, we would go around. Yeah. I 1:12:29.040 --> 1:12:31.200 have a lot of fun memories. All this ship is 1:12:31.240 --> 1:12:33.160 going to be covered in my memoir. But okay, so 1:12:33.240 --> 1:12:35.240 if you were in Europe and you had a gig 1:12:35.320 --> 1:12:37.360 at night, did you say, Okay, this is the first 1:12:37.400 --> 1:12:39.160 time I've been to this town. I'm gonna check out 1:12:39.240 --> 1:12:41.200 the cultural stuff. Yeah, we would go out. We went 1:12:41.280 --> 1:12:45.920 to We went to Liverpool, I think, I don't know 1:12:46.000 --> 1:12:49.040 we were playing nearby. I don't know if we actually 1:12:49.080 --> 1:12:51.160 we're doing a Liverpool game. We saw the remains of 1:12:51.240 --> 1:12:53.479 the Cavern Club, which at that point was just an 1:12:53.479 --> 1:12:57.240 empty lot that was rubble strewn and all that kind 1:12:57.280 --> 1:13:00.320 of stuff. So, what are one or two peaks from 1:13:00.479 --> 1:13:04.719 the touring years in the first generation. Bangkok was really great. 1:13:05.280 --> 1:13:08.960 We were in we played New Year's even Bangkok, and 1:13:09.080 --> 1:13:11.760 there had been like a there had been a coup 1:13:11.920 --> 1:13:14.559 there and they everybody would have had to be off 1:13:14.560 --> 1:13:18.920 the streets from like midnight to five in the morning, 1:13:20.479 --> 1:13:22.200 you know, and you weren't allowed out. There was a curfew. 1:13:22.920 --> 1:13:27.040 And the New Year's Eve that we played, the curfew 1:13:27.160 --> 1:13:30.880 was lifted and Bangkok, needless to say, is a big 1:13:31.000 --> 1:13:34.160 party town and everybody went completely fucking nuts and it 1:13:34.280 --> 1:13:37.479 was a really beautiful moment. Okay, how do you decide 1:13:37.520 --> 1:13:39.840 to hang it up first time around? There was it was. 1:13:40.040 --> 1:13:43.759 There was no moment there was. It was never addressed 1:13:43.800 --> 1:13:46.839 in the media. We just were sucked up on drugs. 1:13:47.320 --> 1:13:51.519 I got really sick. I got that weird skin disorder, 1:13:51.680 --> 1:13:56.040 you know, as a result of h I mean, my 1:13:56.160 --> 1:14:00.040 immune system compromised. That was it just went. You know, 1:14:00.160 --> 1:14:03.479 we just stopped for a while and then did a 1:14:03.560 --> 1:14:07.320 bunch of some of Debbie solo stuff after that, and 1:14:07.439 --> 1:14:11.200 then uh put it all together later and whatever year 1:14:11.280 --> 1:14:13.800 that was ninety six or something. Okay, So for that, 1:14:14.120 --> 1:14:17.040 you know, ten plus years in the interim, were you 1:14:17.160 --> 1:14:20.160 just so fucked up on drugs or did you feel 1:14:20.200 --> 1:14:22.679 like it has been or do you feel like royalty 1:14:22.720 --> 1:14:25.479 would you feel like, I mean, we never really made 1:14:25.520 --> 1:14:27.200 I always felt like we never made it to the 1:14:27.280 --> 1:14:31.960 A lists anyway, you know, regardless of what the public 1:14:32.040 --> 1:14:36.920 perception might be. Um, I always felt like we were 1:14:37.000 --> 1:14:42.600 just you know, large cult phenomena. Uh, you know, we 1:14:42.680 --> 1:14:46.200 weren't completely fucked up on drugs. But you know, it's 1:14:47.320 --> 1:14:52.759 ups and downs. Um, I don't know what I felt 1:14:52.800 --> 1:14:57.640 like necessarily, It's just it was just all, you know, 1:14:57.720 --> 1:14:59.680 everything was part of everything else. It just seemed like 1:14:59.760 --> 1:15:04.840 an tension. And now you have another career as a photographer. 1:15:04.920 --> 1:15:07.000 How did that start? I always just always doing it. 1:15:07.200 --> 1:15:09.519 I you know, I was even when I was a 1:15:09.560 --> 1:15:12.719 little kid. I was screwing around with a little brownie cameras. 1:15:13.240 --> 1:15:15.720 Then I had a guy I grew up with him, 1:15:15.760 --> 1:15:20.880 Dennis McGuire, and he was brilliant young photographer. He still is. 1:15:20.960 --> 1:15:26.160 He's he's master photographer. He apprenticed with Arbis and studied 1:15:26.200 --> 1:15:30.360 with Gary Winnigrad and all this stuff, and he's he was, 1:15:32.439 --> 1:15:36.360 you know, in a big influence on my early photographic days. 1:15:36.439 --> 1:15:42.000 And I just started carrying cameras around around or so nine. 1:15:42.240 --> 1:15:44.639 And you know, it's one thing having a good eye, 1:15:44.720 --> 1:15:49.280 it's another thing being technologically savvy. Are you also technologically 1:15:49.400 --> 1:15:52.280 chay savvy? Are you more point and shoot? Yeah? No? 1:15:52.400 --> 1:15:54.479 I mean, you know I knew your basic stuff. I 1:15:54.520 --> 1:15:57.759 never developed my own film. I would just I would 1:15:57.800 --> 1:15:59.960 print a lot, but I would never I would always 1:16:00.000 --> 1:16:03.920 to send it film out two labs. But you know, 1:16:04.000 --> 1:16:07.000 I knew about F stops and I S O and 1:16:07.080 --> 1:16:11.960 all that stuff. And is there some greater acknowledgement you're 1:16:12.000 --> 1:16:14.960 looking for in the photographic world. No, I did good. 1:16:15.000 --> 1:16:17.800 I mean the books were very popular. Water really big 1:16:18.040 --> 1:16:21.479 show in London at the Sumrset House that was really 1:16:21.600 --> 1:16:27.120 terrifically attended. Um, you know, I'm okay with where I stand. 1:16:27.280 --> 1:16:31.479 I could use more Instagram followers, but beyond that, you know, 1:16:32.439 --> 1:16:35.439 it's okay. So how did it in with you and Debbie? 1:16:35.720 --> 1:16:37.880 We just kind of ran in a steam. It was 1:16:38.040 --> 1:16:41.240 a lot of this drugs stuff. I think we fell 1:16:41.280 --> 1:16:44.320 out of synchronization and but a lot of times, I 1:16:44.360 --> 1:16:47.839 mean I have a hard time connecting with their excess. 1:16:48.280 --> 1:16:51.000 How was it after you were disconnected? I always pissed 1:16:51.040 --> 1:16:53.760 off for a week or so, But then we, you know, 1:16:54.240 --> 1:16:58.519 just formed a new connection. And we've been always been friends. 1:16:58.600 --> 1:17:04.040 We were always we always had this uh like, I've 1:17:04.120 --> 1:17:06.560 never had a lot of fights with Debbie. You know, 1:17:07.280 --> 1:17:12.080 we always are very connected and we have a similar 1:17:12.120 --> 1:17:14.320 mindset in a similar sense of humor and we just 1:17:14.600 --> 1:17:16.719 get along. How do you feel when you got married? 1:17:17.000 --> 1:17:18.559 She was okay with that. I mean that was much later. 1:17:18.600 --> 1:17:22.120 I mean we both have been dating and doing different 1:17:22.600 --> 1:17:25.759 having different relationships. Okay, So where do you see yourself? 1:17:25.880 --> 1:17:28.600 You say you see yourself as a B player in 1:17:28.720 --> 1:17:30.680 the rock roll but you're in the rock and roll 1:17:30.720 --> 1:17:33.719 Hall of Fame. You know, what do you see yourself 1:17:34.160 --> 1:17:36.880 and what do you still yearn to achieve? I just, 1:17:37.200 --> 1:17:39.600 you know, I don't know. I may be nice to 1:17:39.640 --> 1:17:45.240 have a little I guess I have a small bit 1:17:45.280 --> 1:17:47.839 of influence, you know, I have people that pay attention 1:17:47.920 --> 1:17:53.760 to my stupid commentary online. But I just you don't 1:17:53.760 --> 1:17:56.760 want to be happy and I have a have a 1:17:56.840 --> 1:18:00.640 good time. You know. My energy level is way down now. 1:18:00.760 --> 1:18:03.080 I don't know if I'm gonna do the touring with 1:18:03.200 --> 1:18:07.840 the band going forward. I will definitely do recording, but 1:18:08.040 --> 1:18:12.360 I'm not sure I'm gonna go out with the touring situation. 1:18:12.439 --> 1:18:14.560 I just have kind of had it with airports and 1:18:14.640 --> 1:18:17.479 hotels at this point. But I just want to be 1:18:17.680 --> 1:18:22.240 happy and have the family be safe and happy. Okay, 1:18:22.479 --> 1:18:25.160 but you are touring imminently, right, Yeah, No, I don't 1:18:25.160 --> 1:18:26.280 know if I'm gonna do it. I don't think I'm 1:18:26.280 --> 1:18:28.840 gonna do it. I missed a few shows here and 1:18:28.920 --> 1:18:32.120 there recently. I just I don't have the energy. I 1:18:32.160 --> 1:18:35.519 have fucking heart bullshit, you know, murmur of the heart, 1:18:35.920 --> 1:18:39.920 all that kind of stuff. I take medications for that 1:18:40.080 --> 1:18:42.639 and a little fatigue, and I don't know if I'm 1:18:42.800 --> 1:18:45.519 going to go out with the guys. They'll have it replacement. 1:18:45.600 --> 1:18:47.920 How did you discover you had a heart issue? Um? 1:18:48.040 --> 1:18:53.559 And I discover just doubting a couple of like sort 1:18:53.600 --> 1:19:00.240 of semurite painting things, low blood pressure check ups. I 1:19:00.360 --> 1:19:03.320 do have a fib you know. I mean it's not 1:19:03.600 --> 1:19:05.360 I don't have any I have never had any kind 1:19:05.400 --> 1:19:07.080 of surgery or anything like that. I just if they 1:19:07.160 --> 1:19:11.120 just keep it steady with medications, and if you don't 1:19:11.160 --> 1:19:13.960 go out, you still get paid. How does everybody else feel? 1:19:14.000 --> 1:19:16.880 I mean, you know bon Jovi does without Richie sam 1:19:16.960 --> 1:19:19.599 Bora the rest of the band. Fine, if you don't 1:19:19.600 --> 1:19:22.760 go out, no, I mean they're you know, it's but 1:19:23.280 --> 1:19:26.400 we we the last couple of shows that I didn't do. 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:29.400 They we got some kid who's really great and he 1:19:29.560 --> 1:19:32.519 just replicates the parts. But yeah, no, I mean I 1:19:32.600 --> 1:19:34.840 feel you know, I I don't want to let the 1:19:34.880 --> 1:19:38.160 fans down and let the band down. But I am 1:19:39.640 --> 1:19:42.479 completely involved with this next bunch of recordings that we're 1:19:42.520 --> 1:19:46.840 working on. So and and you know, and I'm again 1:19:46.880 --> 1:19:48.960 I'm pitching this memoir and I then we have another 1:19:48.960 --> 1:19:51.960 I have another photo book coming out in October, I'm told, 1:19:52.520 --> 1:19:57.200 which is the our adventures with Geeger. You know when 1:19:57.240 --> 1:20:01.519 we did the cuckoo stuff. So I'm still in the mix, okay, 1:20:01.560 --> 1:20:04.000 And how often do you play the guitar? Occasionally? It 1:20:04.120 --> 1:20:06.280 was it was the last couple of days. It doesn't 1:20:06.280 --> 1:20:08.719 go away, this total muscle memory. I'm kind of amazed 1:20:09.160 --> 1:20:10.720 they could not play for months and then just pick 1:20:10.760 --> 1:20:12.880 it up and be the exactly where he left off. 1:20:13.080 --> 1:20:15.960 I mean, Johnny Raman told me he never played except 1:20:15.960 --> 1:20:19.720 what he was doing shows or recording period. That was it. 1:20:19.920 --> 1:20:21.960 Since you saw them from the beginning, was there any 1:20:22.000 --> 1:20:25.760 evolution or was that the acht from gig one? Yeah? No, no, yeah, 1:20:25.920 --> 1:20:28.120 there was an evolution, and they got tighter and tighter, 1:20:28.640 --> 1:20:32.000 and then the whole Joey phenomenon was so great to 1:20:32.120 --> 1:20:34.640 see him, you know, because he was very awkward and 1:20:35.439 --> 1:20:38.040 much more tentative in the beginning, and to see him 1:20:38.080 --> 1:20:42.080 become this powerful, dominant rock god by the end of 1:20:42.120 --> 1:20:44.320 the whole thing was fucking amazing. You know. Well, the 1:20:44.400 --> 1:20:46.479 weird things, so they're all dead. You think there must 1:20:46.520 --> 1:20:49.439 have been something in the water in the videos, you know, 1:20:49.479 --> 1:20:50.840 I don't know what you're gonna say. I don't know 1:20:50.880 --> 1:20:53.120 about that ship, you know. Now, my wife was My 1:20:53.240 --> 1:20:58.120 wife is from Queen's also, and she had thyroid cancer. 1:20:58.760 --> 1:21:01.120 But we I think we also think that it was 1:21:01.240 --> 1:21:04.519 from being so close to the towers during nine eleven 1:21:04.680 --> 1:21:07.240 because we were living right there, so we were in 1:21:07.320 --> 1:21:12.360 the area that is, uh, you know, suggested for that 1:21:12.479 --> 1:21:14.479 kind of stuff happening. And how is she now? Yeah, 1:21:14.520 --> 1:21:16.280 she's okay. I mean she's got to take you know, 1:21:17.120 --> 1:21:21.799 the synthroid forever. So in terms of other art forms 1:21:21.920 --> 1:21:24.920 like movies and streaming television, you spend a lot of 1:21:24.960 --> 1:21:28.240 time there. Really yeah, yeah, well, actually watched Sucking Everything. Well, 1:21:28.320 --> 1:21:32.320 can you recommend the new Ben Stiller thing, Severance. It's 1:21:32.360 --> 1:21:35.080 really great. I only watched two of those. That's totally great. 1:21:35.479 --> 1:21:41.160 I love fucking Peacemaker. Peacemaker is the greatest God damned thing. Um. 1:21:42.200 --> 1:21:49.480 John Cena is like uh Carrie Grant as a bodybuilder. 1:21:49.840 --> 1:21:53.200 I mean, he has got this old world Hollywood charm. 1:21:54.120 --> 1:21:57.160 That's just fantastic. I had no idea that that guy was, 1:21:57.760 --> 1:22:00.280 you know, up to that level. But he's really great. 1:22:00.960 --> 1:22:04.200 And you know, James Gunn it's great. All those guys 1:22:04.240 --> 1:22:07.400 are great. And then you know, of course Succession. We're 1:22:07.520 --> 1:22:11.080 big fans of um a lot of stuff. I really 1:22:11.120 --> 1:22:14.360 like Power the Dog. The Dog was great. I love 1:22:14.479 --> 1:22:17.840 the Korean movies. You know, I'm watching this series starting 1:22:17.960 --> 1:22:21.280 last night. Did you watch squid Game? Yea, they say 1:22:21.400 --> 1:22:24.400 this is bigger than squid Game In South Korea. The 1:22:24.479 --> 1:22:27.280 show called hell Bound. You know this one hell I 1:22:27.320 --> 1:22:29.360 can't really remember it though, Well, don't ruin it for me. 1:22:29.400 --> 1:22:31.599 I'm only like a third in, but it's like it's 1:22:31.640 --> 1:22:34.840 only six episodes, really wild. That's one where they tell 1:22:34.840 --> 1:22:37.800 you when you're gonna die. Yeah, yeah, well that's you know. 1:22:37.880 --> 1:22:41.080 The original is the anime Death Note. You know Death Note? No, 1:22:41.240 --> 1:22:46.040 I don't Death Note. It's an old anime manga whereby 1:22:46.120 --> 1:22:51.360 the guy gets a notebook from hell or wherever it is, 1:22:51.400 --> 1:22:53.280 and if you write somebody's name and it, they die 1:22:54.439 --> 1:22:57.240 and it goes from there, right, the same thing. So 1:22:57.800 --> 1:23:01.040 I know you're into the modern music, but having seen 1:23:01.160 --> 1:23:04.200 the scene for sixty years, what do you think about 1:23:04.240 --> 1:23:07.360 the music and the music business today relative to yesteryear. 1:23:07.560 --> 1:23:09.400 There's just there's a lot of great stuff, you know. 1:23:09.680 --> 1:23:16.920 I always hear stuff. I just watched Um House of 1:23:17.000 --> 1:23:24.200 Gucci and there was a fucking fantastic song by somebody 1:23:24.280 --> 1:23:28.519 named Alice, an Italian song, Italian language song and there 1:23:28.600 --> 1:23:31.000 that I just have been playing over and over against 1:23:31.040 --> 1:23:33.120 since seeing the movie. That was the most that was 1:23:33.640 --> 1:23:37.320 my biggest takeaway from the movie was this song. Uh, 1:23:39.000 --> 1:23:41.200 there's there's great stuff out there. Well, I guess you know. 1:23:41.320 --> 1:23:44.280 The ethos is different now. The music is a step 1:23:44.840 --> 1:23:48.479 to create a brand to sell and other stuff, and 1:23:48.640 --> 1:23:51.640 it's very different than it was during. The model for 1:23:51.720 --> 1:23:53.920 the rock star is a completely different thing, you know. 1:23:53.960 --> 1:23:57.040 It's now it's all about bling or whatever. I mean. 1:23:57.160 --> 1:24:01.120 I'm consistently amused by Kanye A. That thing the other 1:24:01.240 --> 1:24:06.519 night was very was amusing. Let's go just a little 1:24:06.560 --> 1:24:10.160 bit deeper. Yes, it was amusing. But isn't it sad 1:24:10.479 --> 1:24:14.400 to see a bipolar guy reported on in the news 1:24:14.479 --> 1:24:17.160 at infinite. You know, eventually it's going to turn out 1:24:17.240 --> 1:24:20.280 bad if it hasn't already. Yeah, No, it's it's you know, 1:24:20.640 --> 1:24:25.519 but the guy has so much influence. Um. Like I say, 1:24:25.640 --> 1:24:30.040 it's like, you know, it's like giving an arsonist gallons 1:24:30.080 --> 1:24:32.919 of gasoline. You know, he putting him in this position. 1:24:33.520 --> 1:24:39.880 He Um, it's bizarre. But maybe it was always going on. 1:24:40.040 --> 1:24:43.240 It's just a little more in your face now. Maybe 1:24:43.280 --> 1:24:45.400 these kinds of things were always happening. Well, what do 1:24:45.479 --> 1:24:48.400 you think is drawing everybody to Kanye? He successfully? He does. 1:24:48.479 --> 1:24:50.960 He is a genius. He does a lot of great stuff. 1:24:51.479 --> 1:24:55.560 But people are also absorbed in the drama. And you know, 1:24:55.720 --> 1:24:59.759 coming out in front of thirty thousand people and complaining 1:24:59.760 --> 1:25:02.760 about your ex's boyfriend and how you're gonna beat him 1:25:02.840 --> 1:25:06.639 up is certainly it's on level. You know. Well, it's 1:25:06.680 --> 1:25:08.920 the train wreck. I mean, you can't stop paying attention 1:25:09.000 --> 1:25:12.080 to the train wreck. But eventually, you know, it hits 1:25:12.120 --> 1:25:15.240 a wall. Okay, Chris, thanks so much for taking the track. Thanks, 1:25:15.280 --> 1:25:18.080 but I really appreciate your message that they say until 1:25:18.200 --> 1:25:20.240 next time. This is Bob left SAX