1 00:00:06,120 --> 00:00:08,320 Speaker 1: Hey, welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. My name 2 00:00:08,360 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: is Robert Lamb and I'm. 3 00:00:09,560 --> 00:00:11,920 Speaker 2: Joe McCormick, and it's Saturday, so we're going into the 4 00:00:12,000 --> 00:00:14,600 Speaker 2: vault for an older episode of Stuff to Blow Your Mind. 5 00:00:14,920 --> 00:00:17,319 Speaker 2: This is part two of our series about the oor 6 00:00:17,440 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 2: powered galleys and warships of the ancient Mediterranean. This one 7 00:00:21,520 --> 00:00:24,599 Speaker 2: originally published on August twenty second, twenty twenty four. 8 00:00:25,120 --> 00:00:38,600 Speaker 1: Enjoy Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, production of iHeartRadio. Hey, 9 00:00:38,760 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind. 10 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,239 Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb and I am Joe McCormick, 11 00:00:43,280 --> 00:00:45,559 Speaker 2: and we're back with part two in our series on 12 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:50,159 Speaker 2: the or powered galleys of the ancient world. Now, if 13 00:00:50,200 --> 00:00:52,159 Speaker 2: you haven't heard part one yet, you might want to 14 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:55,360 Speaker 2: go listen to that first. But in the previous episode 15 00:00:55,400 --> 00:00:59,800 Speaker 2: we talked about Ptolemy, the fourth of Egypt's great or, 16 00:01:00,640 --> 00:01:04,480 Speaker 2: which allegedly was built in the third century BCE. We 17 00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:08,600 Speaker 2: have no physical remains, only historical descriptions, but Rob, what 18 00:01:08,680 --> 00:01:11,240 Speaker 2: were some good details on that It allegedly had like 19 00:01:11,440 --> 00:01:13,080 Speaker 2: thousands of people manning it. 20 00:01:13,400 --> 00:01:18,279 Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just an unreasonable amount of ores and oars men, 21 00:01:18,800 --> 00:01:21,920 Speaker 1: but would have been essentially an ancient world aircraft carrier, 22 00:01:22,200 --> 00:01:25,120 Speaker 1: though of course not for aircraft, but for at least troops, 23 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:29,040 Speaker 1: if not maybe siege equipment. The general consensus has often 24 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:31,399 Speaker 1: been that this was not a practical war vessel, but 25 00:01:31,480 --> 00:01:34,640 Speaker 1: just a way of showing off. So we talked a 26 00:01:34,640 --> 00:01:37,200 Speaker 1: little bit about that, and my intention is to eventually 27 00:01:37,240 --> 00:01:39,520 Speaker 1: come back to it and look at some more scholarship 28 00:01:39,560 --> 00:01:42,760 Speaker 1: about it once we finished talking about all of the 29 00:01:43,040 --> 00:01:47,480 Speaker 1: operational war vessels of the ancient world in the. 30 00:01:47,400 --> 00:01:50,480 Speaker 2: Mediterranean, yes, we will have to return to the big one. 31 00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 2: But also last time we talked about the difference between 32 00:01:55,200 --> 00:01:59,320 Speaker 2: paddling and rowing, and thus the difference between paddles and ores. 33 00:01:59,360 --> 00:02:01,680 Speaker 2: You paddle with paddle and you row with an ore, 34 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:05,520 Speaker 2: the main difference being that an ore is locked or 35 00:02:05,560 --> 00:02:08,520 Speaker 2: pinned to the boat's hull itself some way, and you 36 00:02:08,600 --> 00:02:13,280 Speaker 2: typically row facing backwards while you paddle facing forwards. We 37 00:02:13,560 --> 00:02:17,600 Speaker 2: also talked about some prehistoric evidence of the use of 38 00:02:17,600 --> 00:02:21,120 Speaker 2: wooden paddles for water transport in Stone Age northern Europe, 39 00:02:21,200 --> 00:02:24,880 Speaker 2: including one eight to nine thousand year old paddle, and 40 00:02:25,000 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 2: we also talked about some of the pressures leading to 41 00:02:27,520 --> 00:02:30,840 Speaker 2: the development of different mechanisms for powering watercraft in the 42 00:02:30,880 --> 00:02:36,600 Speaker 2: ancient Mediterranean, like wind versus human powered propulsion. And we're 43 00:02:36,639 --> 00:02:39,360 Speaker 2: back with part two to continue the discussion today. 44 00:02:39,760 --> 00:02:42,120 Speaker 1: Yeah, as we started getting into in the last episode, 45 00:02:42,120 --> 00:02:46,519 Speaker 1: the ancient Mediterranean was this vast inland sea ringed by 46 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:53,079 Speaker 1: coastal lands that boasted various powerful and established civilizations as 47 00:02:53,120 --> 00:02:58,240 Speaker 1: well as emergent powers coastal cultures largely contained to this 48 00:02:58,360 --> 00:03:02,920 Speaker 1: inland sea. Means to travel and exploit these waters, but 49 00:03:03,000 --> 00:03:05,560 Speaker 1: the development of wind power was a huge game changer, 50 00:03:05,639 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: allowing for greater use of the sea for transportation despite 51 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:12,239 Speaker 1: the unpredictable nature of Mediterranean wins. So with all of 52 00:03:12,280 --> 00:03:15,760 Speaker 1: this we get the establishment of greater trade routes between 53 00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:19,520 Speaker 1: these various powers, and islands like Crete also become more 54 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:23,000 Speaker 1: and more important given all this traffic. But this also 55 00:03:23,120 --> 00:03:25,239 Speaker 1: means that you know, especially out of ancient Egypt and 56 00:03:25,280 --> 00:03:28,440 Speaker 1: out of ancient Mesopotamia. You know again you have the 57 00:03:28,480 --> 00:03:32,359 Speaker 1: emergence of all these marine trade routes, and this ends 58 00:03:32,440 --> 00:03:35,080 Speaker 1: up spilling over into conflict as well. Conflict over these 59 00:03:35,080 --> 00:03:38,280 Speaker 1: trade routes and around these trade routes, and we get 60 00:03:38,320 --> 00:03:42,600 Speaker 1: like a couple of key developments in maritime conflict technology. 61 00:03:43,040 --> 00:03:46,480 Speaker 1: The first one is pretty obvious and simple, and that is, okay, 62 00:03:46,480 --> 00:03:48,800 Speaker 1: if you have a ship that can carry cargo, it 63 00:03:48,840 --> 00:03:52,640 Speaker 1: can also carry troops. And so the first warships were 64 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:56,520 Speaker 1: basically just cargo ships carrying armed forces. And we have 65 00:03:56,680 --> 00:03:59,920 Speaker 1: various accounts of this. Ancient Egyptian record speak of this 66 00:04:00,120 --> 00:04:03,600 Speaker 1: is far back is twenty four to fifty BCE. That's 67 00:04:03,640 --> 00:04:07,960 Speaker 1: when the pharaoh Sahure that means he who is close 68 00:04:08,000 --> 00:04:11,640 Speaker 1: to Ray the god used a cargo fleet to carry 69 00:04:11,640 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: an army to the Levantine coast. This would be the 70 00:04:15,280 --> 00:04:19,080 Speaker 1: earliest of multiple examples of the ancient Egyptians using seapower 71 00:04:19,120 --> 00:04:22,559 Speaker 1: to transport troops. These would have been big, lumbering troop 72 00:04:22,600 --> 00:04:25,719 Speaker 1: movements by sea. So the flip side of the coin 73 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: here is you would also see the use of sail 74 00:04:28,880 --> 00:04:33,279 Speaker 1: and or driven rovers, so small faster vessels. They could 75 00:04:33,279 --> 00:04:37,560 Speaker 1: be used to do things like deliver a message, gather intel, 76 00:04:38,279 --> 00:04:41,760 Speaker 1: also attack coastal targets or even unprotected vessels. 77 00:04:42,320 --> 00:04:45,200 Speaker 2: A theme I've noticed before, which is that sometimes the 78 00:04:45,240 --> 00:04:48,479 Speaker 2: line between naval warfare and piracy is quite thin. 79 00:04:48,960 --> 00:04:52,960 Speaker 1: Yes, yeah, absolutely depends on his who's doing the analysis 80 00:04:53,360 --> 00:04:55,520 Speaker 1: and we'll have more examples of that as we go here. 81 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:58,640 Speaker 1: One of my sources in this that I cided in 82 00:04:58,640 --> 00:05:00,840 Speaker 1: the last episode is the book The a Mariners by 83 00:05:00,920 --> 00:05:04,440 Speaker 1: Lionel Cassen, who is one of the one of the 84 00:05:04,520 --> 00:05:10,200 Speaker 1: key authorities of the twentieth century on ancient Mediterranean sea 85 00:05:10,240 --> 00:05:13,680 Speaker 1: powers and so forth. And he wrote that these vessels 86 00:05:13,880 --> 00:05:18,240 Speaker 1: were likely that these rovers, these smaller faster vessels were 87 00:05:18,360 --> 00:05:20,760 Speaker 1: likely as old as the big cargo ships, but our 88 00:05:20,800 --> 00:05:23,640 Speaker 1: written records of their usage and conflict only goes back 89 00:05:23,680 --> 00:05:28,040 Speaker 1: to like the fourteenth century BCE, but they're quite telling. 90 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:31,680 Speaker 1: We get this idea of fleets of sea rovers utilized 91 00:05:31,720 --> 00:05:35,800 Speaker 1: to disrupt cross sea communication and maritime trade, as well 92 00:05:35,839 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: as to eventually enforced blockades. Syrian naval units were thus 93 00:05:40,200 --> 00:05:43,880 Speaker 1: able to disrupt the link between Egypt and Biblos, and 94 00:05:44,360 --> 00:05:48,600 Speaker 1: he also had full fledged sea powers like the Minoans 95 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:52,000 Speaker 1: and then the Mycenians, who were able to hold their 96 00:05:52,000 --> 00:05:55,119 Speaker 1: own and then some against powers like Egypt. It also 97 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:59,600 Speaker 1: meant that an age of rich oversea trade largely entered 98 00:05:59,600 --> 00:06:04,279 Speaker 1: into an age of like rampant sea rovers. So you know, 99 00:06:04,960 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: we see some of the first recorded sea battles during 100 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,200 Speaker 1: this rough time period we're looking at here, such as 101 00:06:11,160 --> 00:06:14,279 Speaker 1: Rameses the Third's defeat of an invading fleet of the 102 00:06:14,320 --> 00:06:17,840 Speaker 1: Sea Peoples the Battle of the Delta in eleven seventy 103 00:06:17,880 --> 00:06:18,640 Speaker 1: five BCEE. 104 00:06:19,080 --> 00:06:22,200 Speaker 2: Now, an interesting thing about this particular battle is that 105 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,680 Speaker 2: I've read it described in some sources as being not 106 00:06:25,960 --> 00:06:29,320 Speaker 2: that different from a land battle, just taking place on 107 00:06:29,480 --> 00:06:30,320 Speaker 2: top of the water. 108 00:06:31,160 --> 00:06:35,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, and you get that from the Egyptian illustrations of 109 00:06:35,680 --> 00:06:38,880 Speaker 1: the battle, the way that it ends up rolling out. 110 00:06:39,320 --> 00:06:43,000 Speaker 1: So a couple of basics on the way this went down. Now, 111 00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:45,440 Speaker 1: on the subject of the Sea Peoples, much has been 112 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,520 Speaker 1: hypothesized about who they were and where they came from. 113 00:06:49,800 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: But they definitely invaded Eastern and Anatolia, Syria, Palestine, Cyprus, 114 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:58,760 Speaker 1: and Egypt toward the end of the Bronze Age, and 115 00:06:58,800 --> 00:07:03,280 Speaker 1: we're particularly active ing the thirteenth century BC. There are 116 00:07:03,320 --> 00:07:05,919 Speaker 1: different ways to look at them, from a confederacy of 117 00:07:05,960 --> 00:07:10,080 Speaker 1: different seafaring raiders, two varying groups of people's displaced by 118 00:07:10,200 --> 00:07:14,560 Speaker 1: late Bronze Age disturbances. So it's an entire topic undo itself. 119 00:07:15,160 --> 00:07:17,360 Speaker 1: But this would have been the second war between the 120 00:07:17,400 --> 00:07:21,280 Speaker 1: Egyptians and the Sea people's case in his book, wrote 121 00:07:21,280 --> 00:07:24,440 Speaker 1: that it was very much it seems like a mass migration, 122 00:07:25,000 --> 00:07:27,679 Speaker 1: and not at all like the smaller raids that Egypt 123 00:07:27,720 --> 00:07:31,080 Speaker 1: had pretty much always had to contend with on their 124 00:07:31,160 --> 00:07:34,640 Speaker 1: coastal border. It consisted of two main forces working their 125 00:07:34,640 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: way down the coast toward Egypt at this point, the 126 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,480 Speaker 1: main body that moved by land and the accompanying fleet 127 00:07:40,520 --> 00:07:44,920 Speaker 1: that largely kept pace along the coast. Now, as far 128 00:07:44,960 --> 00:07:48,760 Speaker 1: as the actual engagement, the way it is said to 129 00:07:48,760 --> 00:07:53,600 Speaker 1: have gone down is as follows. So the forces of 130 00:07:53,640 --> 00:07:56,760 Speaker 1: Egypt had just defeated the forces of the Sea peoples 131 00:07:56,920 --> 00:08:00,200 Speaker 1: on land in Syria and then rushed back across the 132 00:08:00,200 --> 00:08:03,840 Speaker 1: sea to Egypt with the Sea People's in pursuit, and 133 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:07,320 Speaker 1: in doing so drew their fleet into an ambush at 134 00:08:07,320 --> 00:08:10,080 Speaker 1: the mouth of the Nile. And this would have been 135 00:08:10,640 --> 00:08:14,000 Speaker 1: via an ambush fleet, but also supporting fire from the 136 00:08:14,080 --> 00:08:16,800 Speaker 1: shore as well. But in both cases, to your point, 137 00:08:17,200 --> 00:08:21,520 Speaker 1: this all very much mirrored a land battle. So you know, 138 00:08:21,680 --> 00:08:25,160 Speaker 1: people on ships shooting arrows at each other, people on 139 00:08:25,280 --> 00:08:29,200 Speaker 1: land shooting arrows at the ships, flaming or otherwise boarding 140 00:08:29,240 --> 00:08:32,800 Speaker 1: actions and so forth. Again, a lot of this just 141 00:08:32,840 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: this is what we gather from ancient Egyptian illustrations of 142 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:37,040 Speaker 1: the conflict. 143 00:08:37,520 --> 00:08:40,760 Speaker 2: Yes, there's one quite famous illustration of this battle that 144 00:08:41,000 --> 00:08:43,120 Speaker 2: is busy to look at. 145 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: Yeah, the only thing that's instantly clear is which one 146 00:08:46,280 --> 00:08:49,280 Speaker 1: is the pharaoh. You can figure that out pretty easily. 147 00:08:49,440 --> 00:08:50,320 Speaker 2: He's the big one. 148 00:08:50,640 --> 00:08:53,640 Speaker 1: The end result here is that it's a total Egyptian 149 00:08:53,720 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: victory over the sea. People's you know, not wiping them out, 150 00:08:57,480 --> 00:09:00,720 Speaker 1: but defeating them enough to where they have to retreat 151 00:09:01,120 --> 00:09:05,720 Speaker 1: and are apparently unable to reach so far south again 152 00:09:05,800 --> 00:09:09,079 Speaker 1: as to attempt at the conquest of Egypt now elsewhere 153 00:09:09,120 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: in the Mediterranean more or less around the same time, 154 00:09:12,240 --> 00:09:14,640 Speaker 1: and as related in the Iliad, you have, of course 155 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,240 Speaker 1: the whole business with Troy of course, as as we've 156 00:09:18,280 --> 00:09:21,600 Speaker 1: discussed in the show before, also their caveats about our 157 00:09:22,080 --> 00:09:27,880 Speaker 1: understanding of the historical aspects of Troy as opposed to 158 00:09:28,000 --> 00:09:32,600 Speaker 1: the literary context here. But for the most part, you know, 159 00:09:32,640 --> 00:09:36,920 Speaker 1: we have this story of a like a Greek alliance 160 00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: taking on the city of Troy, the forces of Greece 161 00:09:42,320 --> 00:09:46,320 Speaker 1: consisting of you know, experienced marauders and traders, everyone joining 162 00:09:46,400 --> 00:09:52,040 Speaker 1: up under the command of Agamemnon in his book, Cason writes, 163 00:09:52,559 --> 00:09:54,319 Speaker 1: it's a very it's a very well written book and 164 00:09:54,360 --> 00:09:57,560 Speaker 1: has some nice descriptions. He writes, for once, the major 165 00:09:57,600 --> 00:09:59,920 Speaker 1: cities of Greece for went their traditional past time of 166 00:10:00,080 --> 00:10:03,040 Speaker 1: preying on one another and joined hands for a combined 167 00:10:03,080 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: operation against Troy. And while it's described as of course 168 00:10:06,160 --> 00:10:08,560 Speaker 1: a land based siege of a city with no navy, 169 00:10:08,840 --> 00:10:11,000 Speaker 1: they traveled to their destination via ship. 170 00:10:11,320 --> 00:10:13,280 Speaker 2: And of course the ships play a major role in 171 00:10:13,320 --> 00:10:15,880 Speaker 2: the narrative of the Iliad. You know, there's like the 172 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:18,520 Speaker 2: famous passage where there's like the listing of all the 173 00:10:18,559 --> 00:10:20,360 Speaker 2: ships and the warriors brought with them. 174 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:24,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's a The works of Homer, you know, 175 00:10:24,760 --> 00:10:27,840 Speaker 1: are actually a key point in trying to understand like 176 00:10:27,880 --> 00:10:32,000 Speaker 1: what these ships were and how they functioned. Okays In 177 00:10:32,080 --> 00:10:35,920 Speaker 1: points out that ancient freighters, as the Mycenians would have used, 178 00:10:35,960 --> 00:10:39,760 Speaker 1: typically traversed by sail alone. They were roomy and slow 179 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: ships built exclusively for war. However, it had to be galleys. 180 00:10:44,760 --> 00:10:47,000 Speaker 1: We've kind of gotten to this already, I think. So 181 00:10:47,040 --> 00:10:49,400 Speaker 1: they had to be fast when it mattered, so they 182 00:10:49,400 --> 00:10:53,120 Speaker 1: could depend on sales when speed wasn't a necessity, or 183 00:10:53,160 --> 00:10:55,520 Speaker 1: when the wind was good, which, of course, you know, 184 00:10:55,520 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: it's worth noting that if the wind is really good, 185 00:10:57,360 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: that will propel you rather swiftly, but can have to 186 00:11:00,559 --> 00:11:03,560 Speaker 1: be right, and you could not necessarily count on the 187 00:11:03,559 --> 00:11:07,240 Speaker 1: Mediterranean wins, especially if conflict was involved, So the sales 188 00:11:07,240 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: could easily be stored away in favor of that ore 189 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:13,640 Speaker 1: power that was dependent entirely upon the muscles of your crew. 190 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:18,640 Speaker 1: And he points out that the ore power here again 191 00:11:18,679 --> 00:11:22,080 Speaker 1: in Homeric times, if you will, was provided by the 192 00:11:22,160 --> 00:11:25,240 Speaker 1: crew of the vessel, which also included the ship's fighting men. 193 00:11:26,120 --> 00:11:29,559 Speaker 1: So it's interesting. So on one hand, we shouldn't make 194 00:11:29,600 --> 00:11:32,520 Speaker 1: the mistake of thinking that they were not good oarsmen. 195 00:11:32,640 --> 00:11:36,400 Speaker 1: They were apparently very good oarsmen, highly trained, very skilled. 196 00:11:36,720 --> 00:11:40,840 Speaker 1: There's actually a part in the Odyssey where Alcinous brags 197 00:11:40,880 --> 00:11:45,680 Speaker 1: that brags about what great oarsmen his men are. But 198 00:11:45,920 --> 00:11:48,720 Speaker 1: they were not just dedicated to oarsmen. They also would 199 00:11:48,720 --> 00:11:50,240 Speaker 1: have been called on to do all these other things 200 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: as well. Okay, so there was a careful balance apparently 201 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: in play to how hard you would push your rowers, 202 00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:00,800 Speaker 1: because if you were planning on, you know, making an 203 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:04,559 Speaker 1: amphibious landing, an amphibious invasion on the other end of 204 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:07,600 Speaker 1: your journey. They need to be able to get up 205 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:11,080 Speaker 1: and go and do that. So I was trying to imagine, 206 00:12:11,120 --> 00:12:13,480 Speaker 1: like what would be comparison with It would be kind 207 00:12:13,480 --> 00:12:16,240 Speaker 1: of like if an NFL team had to potentially row 208 00:12:16,640 --> 00:12:19,160 Speaker 1: to I don't know, the Super Bowl and then play 209 00:12:19,160 --> 00:12:20,160 Speaker 1: the game when they got there. 210 00:12:20,320 --> 00:12:22,280 Speaker 2: Yeah, they've got to run to the game or something. 211 00:12:22,400 --> 00:12:26,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, So the author here he contends that, yeah, basically 212 00:12:27,920 --> 00:12:30,520 Speaker 1: these folks would rather sail than row, and they would 213 00:12:30,520 --> 00:12:33,320 Speaker 1: depend on sailing as often as possible. But again, there 214 00:12:33,320 --> 00:12:35,400 Speaker 1: are going to be certain conditions where it's just going 215 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: to make sense and make all the difference to get 216 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,360 Speaker 1: everybody pushing those oars or pulling those oars. Now, what 217 00:12:42,400 --> 00:12:45,480 Speaker 1: were these ships like? We have few illustrations. We have 218 00:12:45,559 --> 00:12:49,120 Speaker 1: the descriptions by Homer, including a part in the Odyssey 219 00:12:49,160 --> 00:12:52,160 Speaker 1: where Odysseus builds a new ship. But even a lot 220 00:12:52,200 --> 00:12:55,040 Speaker 1: of this didn't come together till the twentieth century when 221 00:12:55,040 --> 00:12:59,960 Speaker 1: we had maritime archaeology to give us have some actual 222 00:13:00,559 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: evidence to base some of this on other archaeological data 223 00:13:04,280 --> 00:13:07,280 Speaker 1: that we could take some of those passages and make 224 00:13:07,320 --> 00:13:10,760 Speaker 1: better sense of what they were saying. So Cason contends 225 00:13:10,800 --> 00:13:14,240 Speaker 1: that the vessels, which he jokingly describes as sea going 226 00:13:14,240 --> 00:13:18,640 Speaker 1: greyhounds during this period between thirteen hundred and twelve hundred BC, 227 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,240 Speaker 1: would have looked essentially like this, long low holes on 228 00:13:22,280 --> 00:13:25,559 Speaker 1: abruptly rising prowl. That's the front of the ship, and 229 00:13:25,640 --> 00:13:28,960 Speaker 1: they had a curved stern, as opposed to the reported 230 00:13:28,960 --> 00:13:31,600 Speaker 1: build of the sea people's vessels, which were described as 231 00:13:31,600 --> 00:13:33,960 Speaker 1: having a straight stern. The stern, of course, is the 232 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:34,920 Speaker 1: back of the ship. 233 00:13:35,840 --> 00:13:36,160 Speaker 2: All right. 234 00:13:36,200 --> 00:13:38,280 Speaker 1: So at this point we're talking more or less about 235 00:13:38,360 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: single level galleys becoming the norm. These would have been 236 00:13:42,880 --> 00:13:46,920 Speaker 1: single level or vessels powered by around thirty men, and 237 00:13:46,960 --> 00:13:50,119 Speaker 1: we based a lot of this on like vase paintings, 238 00:13:50,679 --> 00:13:56,840 Speaker 1: Homeric writings, chronicles from a century BC, and so forth. 239 00:13:57,520 --> 00:14:00,320 Speaker 1: That let us know that. Okay, Eventually, though, the ships 240 00:14:00,400 --> 00:14:03,280 Speaker 1: begin to vary in size, the number of the oars 241 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:05,680 Speaker 1: ends up ranging from twenty to forty or even fifty. 242 00:14:05,720 --> 00:14:08,280 Speaker 1: We'll get into that more later. Early on, though, we 243 00:14:08,280 --> 00:14:10,920 Speaker 1: would have been dealing with a case where most of 244 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:14,000 Speaker 1: these vessels would have been privately owned, and they would 245 00:14:14,000 --> 00:14:18,600 Speaker 1: have engaged in both merchant trade and raiding. So as 246 00:14:18,640 --> 00:14:21,000 Speaker 1: well as you know, carrying armed men to a destination, 247 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:25,080 Speaker 1: and there would have been more of this than dedicated 248 00:14:25,120 --> 00:14:27,640 Speaker 1: fighting at sea. Again, we get into that idea that 249 00:14:27,680 --> 00:14:32,560 Speaker 1: there's a thin line between between what is piracy and 250 00:14:32,600 --> 00:14:36,880 Speaker 1: what is some other pursuit, including actual trade. But as 251 00:14:36,920 --> 00:14:39,520 Speaker 1: all this heats up, it gets to the point where Okay, 252 00:14:39,600 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: a single row of ores is not going to cut it. 253 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,960 Speaker 1: You're going to need an additional row of ores. And 254 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:51,320 Speaker 1: it's interesting getting into this because yeah, we see the 255 00:14:52,240 --> 00:14:58,560 Speaker 1: birth of the fifty ORed vessels, the penticonters, which might 256 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,520 Speaker 1: have apparently reflected a development in the eighth century BCE 257 00:15:02,800 --> 00:15:06,440 Speaker 1: according to Fagan and Rancoff, who I sided in the 258 00:15:06,840 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 1: last episode. That's Brian Fagan and Boris Rancoff. So the 259 00:15:11,040 --> 00:15:13,640 Speaker 1: vessels we're talking about here would have featured two levels 260 00:15:13,640 --> 00:15:17,200 Speaker 1: of rowers, one rowing at the same level is those 261 00:15:17,200 --> 00:15:20,680 Speaker 1: single row galleys that came before, but then a lower 262 00:15:20,760 --> 00:15:24,600 Speaker 1: level in the hold working ores through apertures in the hull. 263 00:15:24,960 --> 00:15:27,520 Speaker 1: So it's interesting. You might imagine that we just built 264 00:15:27,560 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 1: one on top of the other, like an ice cream cone, 265 00:15:30,160 --> 00:15:32,560 Speaker 1: but it's not quite the same. It's a little more 266 00:15:32,800 --> 00:15:36,080 Speaker 1: complicated than that. Ends up involving like a reworking of 267 00:15:36,120 --> 00:15:37,240 Speaker 1: the hull itself. 268 00:15:37,880 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: Now, on one hand, I would imagine, okay, you're adding 269 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,520 Speaker 2: more ores, more rowers. That gives your boat more power, 270 00:15:44,640 --> 00:15:48,720 Speaker 2: you can achieve greater speeds. But from what I understand, 271 00:15:49,600 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 2: splitting the operators of the vessel the power in the 272 00:15:53,480 --> 00:15:58,200 Speaker 2: rowers into multiple levels also has other implications for the 273 00:15:58,200 --> 00:16:00,480 Speaker 2: design and construction of the vessel. 274 00:16:01,080 --> 00:16:03,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, And I found this really interesting as well, 275 00:16:03,320 --> 00:16:06,880 Speaker 1: because it wasn't simply that you could have more ores 276 00:16:06,920 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: per vessel and therefore more power. In fact, in many 277 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,160 Speaker 1: cases you'd have vessels with the same number of ores 278 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,320 Speaker 1: that a single level craft would have boasted. But since 279 00:16:16,360 --> 00:16:19,360 Speaker 1: you can spread them out across two levels, that means 280 00:16:19,400 --> 00:16:22,360 Speaker 1: you can make the craft itself shorter. So you had 281 00:16:22,360 --> 00:16:25,080 Speaker 1: the ability to make not only a faster vessel, but 282 00:16:25,200 --> 00:16:28,000 Speaker 1: this is key, a more maneuverable one. Ah. 283 00:16:28,080 --> 00:16:30,960 Speaker 2: Right, So a shorter vessel will have less drag in 284 00:16:31,000 --> 00:16:33,520 Speaker 2: the water and will be able to turn more easily, 285 00:16:33,560 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 2: and I guess probably also have less weight per unit 286 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:37,680 Speaker 2: of rowing space. 287 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:43,040 Speaker 1: Yeah. I don't know if there's an actual decent comparison 288 00:16:43,080 --> 00:16:45,600 Speaker 1: to be made to buses, but I couldn't help. But 289 00:16:45,640 --> 00:16:48,080 Speaker 1: think about like the difference between like a double decker 290 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: bus and one of those giant buses where they're like 291 00:16:51,160 --> 00:16:54,400 Speaker 1: joined together with this bendi part in the middle, because 292 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,920 Speaker 1: I guess both of them can be difficult to maneuver 293 00:16:58,280 --> 00:17:01,360 Speaker 1: in their own way. But I don't know, maybe it's 294 00:17:01,360 --> 00:17:04,440 Speaker 1: the halfway useful analogy. But these general changes that are 295 00:17:04,440 --> 00:17:08,240 Speaker 1: going on here, according to Fake and Runkoff, they seem 296 00:17:08,320 --> 00:17:12,439 Speaker 1: to suggest though that fighting capacity was becoming more and 297 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:16,360 Speaker 1: more important and carrying capacity was less of a concern. 298 00:17:16,480 --> 00:17:20,200 Speaker 1: So yeah, you're you're having to upgrade the design of 299 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,800 Speaker 1: your vessels in order to emphasize speed and mobility as 300 00:17:23,840 --> 00:17:25,960 Speaker 1: opposed to just how much stuff you could carry, be 301 00:17:26,080 --> 00:17:30,919 Speaker 1: that stuff cargo or troops or something else. However, the 302 00:17:31,040 --> 00:17:34,719 Speaker 1: length of these vessels does gradually increase, incorporating more and 303 00:17:34,760 --> 00:17:39,040 Speaker 1: more ores, upward of one hundred. So again everything continues 304 00:17:39,080 --> 00:17:43,440 Speaker 1: to evolve new forms, and then like stretch the ability 305 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:45,720 Speaker 1: of that form. What happens if we added more ores 306 00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:58,000 Speaker 1: to it and so forth put more ores in. Yeah, 307 00:17:59,440 --> 00:18:02,200 Speaker 1: now it's also crucial to mention that apparently, as action 308 00:18:02,280 --> 00:18:06,200 Speaker 1: in the Mediterranean heats up again over this over years 309 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 1: and years, decades and decades ultimately centuries sea based trade, piracy, colonization, 310 00:18:13,720 --> 00:18:18,840 Speaker 1: and more. This kind of eventually ends the days of 311 00:18:18,880 --> 00:18:23,880 Speaker 1: independently held galleys being like the main brunt of any 312 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 1: force out there. So Cason wrote writes about this, saying quote, 313 00:18:28,040 --> 00:18:30,400 Speaker 1: in these days, there was no one state that had 314 00:18:30,520 --> 00:18:33,959 Speaker 1: the naval strengths to police the seas. Every city involved 315 00:18:34,000 --> 00:18:36,440 Speaker 1: in trade had to maintain its own fleet, not only 316 00:18:36,520 --> 00:18:40,080 Speaker 1: to protect its merchantmen against the ubiquitous pirates whose calling 317 00:18:40,160 --> 00:18:43,120 Speaker 1: now as before, had the status of a recognized profession, 318 00:18:43,560 --> 00:18:47,520 Speaker 1: but also to repel attacks delivered by commercial rivals, since 319 00:18:47,560 --> 00:18:51,680 Speaker 1: such attempts were an acknowledged means of discouraging competition. 320 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:54,560 Speaker 2: Literal corporate raiders. 321 00:18:54,920 --> 00:18:58,560 Speaker 1: Exactly. Yeah, so it's dangerous out there. And yeah, any 322 00:18:58,560 --> 00:19:00,679 Speaker 1: stresses that the building up of nay these and the 323 00:19:00,680 --> 00:19:03,640 Speaker 1: perfecting of these different maritime war technologies in the ancient world, 324 00:19:03,920 --> 00:19:06,119 Speaker 1: all this one hand in hand with the planning, the 325 00:19:06,160 --> 00:19:08,920 Speaker 1: planting of colonies, the opening up of new trade routes 326 00:19:08,920 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: between these various city states, and so forth. So yeah, 327 00:19:13,720 --> 00:19:16,320 Speaker 1: it's just it gets more and more dangerous. And uh, 328 00:19:16,440 --> 00:19:21,120 Speaker 1: the the maritime technology evolves to keep up with that. Now, 329 00:19:21,119 --> 00:19:24,600 Speaker 1: the Pentagonter seemed again that the two leveled org vessels 330 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:27,120 Speaker 1: seems to have remained the main warship from the eighth 331 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:32,280 Speaker 1: through six centuries BCE. But clearly this climate demanded greater innovation, 332 00:19:32,920 --> 00:19:36,199 Speaker 1: you know, to continue to to to you know, to 333 00:19:36,280 --> 00:19:41,240 Speaker 1: push the boundaries of what's possible. Every conceivable edge is 334 00:19:41,280 --> 00:19:45,439 Speaker 1: going to count in one of these altercations. And uh 335 00:19:45,880 --> 00:19:47,840 Speaker 1: so we see a couple of things, and they're very 336 00:19:47,840 --> 00:19:52,200 Speaker 1: interconnected here. One was the increasing importance of the nautical ram, 337 00:19:52,240 --> 00:19:54,360 Speaker 1: which which we'll get to in a bit. But then 338 00:19:54,359 --> 00:19:57,040 Speaker 1: the other goes in hand in hand with that as well, 339 00:19:57,080 --> 00:20:00,040 Speaker 1: and that is I think everyone can guess at a 340 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:05,600 Speaker 1: third level of rowers to your vessel optimize. Yeah, you 341 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: add more ores, more humans pulling those oars so that 342 00:20:10,280 --> 00:20:11,359 Speaker 1: we can have more power. 343 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,160 Speaker 2: So the name of the try Rem comes from three 344 00:20:14,560 --> 00:20:15,680 Speaker 2: levels of rowers. 345 00:20:16,040 --> 00:20:20,400 Speaker 1: That's right, the try Rem. It's basically like we've been describing. 346 00:20:20,440 --> 00:20:24,800 Speaker 1: It's the Pentaconter with a third level added. But make 347 00:20:24,840 --> 00:20:28,760 Speaker 1: no mistake, this edition really did apparently push the engineering 348 00:20:28,800 --> 00:20:32,359 Speaker 1: limits of the ancient world, and according to what I've 349 00:20:32,400 --> 00:20:35,520 Speaker 1: been reading, could easily be considered the most advanced vehicle 350 00:20:35,600 --> 00:20:39,000 Speaker 1: of the age. So it wasn't just let's strap another 351 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,280 Speaker 1: row of oars up there. It wasn't. It involved redesigning 352 00:20:43,320 --> 00:20:48,359 Speaker 1: the whole ship. And these were advanced vehicles that in 353 00:20:48,400 --> 00:20:50,919 Speaker 1: the last episode we compared to jet fighters of today, 354 00:20:51,280 --> 00:20:55,119 Speaker 1: ultimately in the long run too expensive for city states 355 00:20:55,160 --> 00:20:57,520 Speaker 1: to keep up with. And of course these became just 356 00:20:57,640 --> 00:21:01,120 Speaker 1: a staple of sea conflict and seem power see Power. 357 00:21:00,880 --> 00:21:01,360 Speaker 2: Of the day. 358 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:04,080 Speaker 1: The Greeks use these, and then the defeat of the 359 00:21:04,080 --> 00:21:08,600 Speaker 1: Persians at Salamis in four AD BCE, and they would 360 00:21:08,600 --> 00:21:12,159 Speaker 1: be a major part of their maritime might. This battle, 361 00:21:12,200 --> 00:21:15,080 Speaker 1: by the way, I am reminded, is depicted in the 362 00:21:15,240 --> 00:21:20,520 Speaker 1: twenty fourteen three hundred sequel. As usually a sequel, there 363 00:21:20,600 --> 00:21:22,280 Speaker 1: was a sequel. I saw part of it on an 364 00:21:22,280 --> 00:21:27,080 Speaker 1: airplane as usual. I am dubious about looking to a 365 00:21:27,119 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: three hundred picture for any kind of historical accuracy. But 366 00:21:32,080 --> 00:21:33,720 Speaker 1: I don't know. People who have seen the movie write 367 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,080 Speaker 1: in maybe it has some really good trirem scenes. I mean, 368 00:21:36,480 --> 00:21:38,520 Speaker 1: I would at least ask that there would be cool 369 00:21:38,560 --> 00:21:42,520 Speaker 1: trirem action sequences in that picture. So, as far as 370 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,680 Speaker 1: we know, with the trirem, the third level, the top 371 00:21:45,800 --> 00:21:50,639 Speaker 1: level would have had the oarsmen rowing through outriggers so 372 00:21:50,680 --> 00:21:53,359 Speaker 1: as to keep the hole as narrow as possible, while 373 00:21:53,400 --> 00:21:57,040 Speaker 1: the two lower levels would have rowed through whole apertures. 374 00:21:57,600 --> 00:21:59,800 Speaker 1: As such, you could power up a vessel with a 375 00:21:59,840 --> 00:22:02,639 Speaker 1: good one hundred and seventy oars and it would have 376 00:22:02,680 --> 00:22:06,960 Speaker 1: been as maneuverable as the two level pentdiconter, but ultimately 377 00:22:07,000 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: faster and deadly. Now where did this innovation come from? Well, 378 00:22:12,280 --> 00:22:14,760 Speaker 1: according to the author as I was reading here, Athenian 379 00:22:14,840 --> 00:22:20,879 Speaker 1: general and historian Thucydides credited to the Corinthian shipwright Menocles 380 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,840 Speaker 1: in the eighth century, but Fagan and Rankov state that 381 00:22:24,240 --> 00:22:27,800 Speaker 1: more recent scholarship suggests that the invention hailed from perhaps 382 00:22:27,880 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 1: the Egyptians or the Phoenicians under Persian rule near the 383 00:22:31,560 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: end of the sixth century. Now, as of their writing, 384 00:22:35,440 --> 00:22:38,919 Speaker 1: there had been zero wrecks of these vessels discovered, due 385 00:22:38,960 --> 00:22:41,639 Speaker 1: in part to the fact that they would have apparently 386 00:22:41,680 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: it's thought, have had positive buoyancy of hold. But in 387 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: any case this was the case, then it's still the case. 388 00:22:48,800 --> 00:22:52,520 Speaker 1: Now thousands of these ships were built and lost, and 389 00:22:52,560 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 1: apparently truly lost, because we've never found a wreck. 390 00:22:55,640 --> 00:22:58,040 Speaker 2: Now by never found a wreck, Rob, you mean never 391 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:04,160 Speaker 2: found a substantially intact direct But we do have pieces, right. 392 00:23:04,359 --> 00:23:08,639 Speaker 1: We have pieces, we have we have various other bits 393 00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,400 Speaker 1: and pieces, you know, we have literary and historic writings. 394 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: And there were also some remains of the sea harbor 395 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:18,919 Speaker 1: sheds at Piraeus near Athens that were also helpful in 396 00:23:19,040 --> 00:23:21,800 Speaker 1: trying to piece together exactly what a trirem was. 397 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:25,639 Speaker 2: But if somebody's trying to build a replica replica of 398 00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:28,960 Speaker 2: an ancient Greek trirem in the modern world, it is 399 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:33,720 Speaker 2: an exercise involving some amount of speculation and interpretation. You 400 00:23:33,760 --> 00:23:36,040 Speaker 2: don't just have like one you can copy. 401 00:23:36,080 --> 00:23:39,880 Speaker 1: Right right, And this was the endeavor in the creation 402 00:23:40,200 --> 00:23:44,560 Speaker 1: of the Olympias in the mid nineteen eighties, where you 403 00:23:44,680 --> 00:23:48,400 Speaker 1: had a bunch of experts come together and build what 404 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:52,120 Speaker 1: I've seen referred to as a floating hypothesis. Let's take 405 00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:57,199 Speaker 1: everything we know about what a trirem probably was, you 406 00:23:57,200 --> 00:24:00,359 Speaker 1: know what we know about ancient construction techniques and so forth, 407 00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,159 Speaker 1: and let's build one with the under understanding that we're 408 00:24:04,200 --> 00:24:06,640 Speaker 1: we're not going to get it one hundred percent correct. 409 00:24:06,920 --> 00:24:11,320 Speaker 1: You know, nobody, nobody has u I have seen Anybody 410 00:24:11,440 --> 00:24:14,840 Speaker 1: arguing that the resulting ship is just dead on, it's 411 00:24:14,840 --> 00:24:19,000 Speaker 1: inevitably incorrect. It cannot possibly be a one for one 412 00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:22,919 Speaker 1: match for what any given trireham actually was in the 413 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:25,520 Speaker 1: ancient world. But the idea is that it would give 414 00:24:25,600 --> 00:24:29,760 Speaker 1: us like a solid model which we could then run 415 00:24:29,800 --> 00:24:35,119 Speaker 1: through trials, experiment with, and then have nuanced conversations about 416 00:24:35,440 --> 00:24:39,439 Speaker 1: where this prototype gets it wrong, you know, where this 417 00:24:39,520 --> 00:24:42,440 Speaker 1: recreation gets it wrong, Like Okay, maybe it's it's too 418 00:24:42,480 --> 00:24:45,399 Speaker 1: heavy and therefore too slow, or maybe, uh, you know, 419 00:24:45,440 --> 00:24:49,200 Speaker 1: it's not tough enough to withstand being rammed and so forth, 420 00:24:50,359 --> 00:24:53,000 Speaker 1: and so they they built this thing, and there's there 421 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:56,920 Speaker 1: are plenty of images of this vessel. There are there, 422 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,359 Speaker 1: there's there's footage, there's there have been documentaries, U there was. 423 00:25:00,520 --> 00:25:03,680 Speaker 1: The resulting craft was thirty six point nine meters or 424 00:25:03,800 --> 00:25:05,919 Speaker 1: one hundred and twenty one feet one inch in length, 425 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:09,280 Speaker 1: powered by two sails, and of course one hundred and 426 00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:12,679 Speaker 1: seventy oarsmen. And I believe oarsmen is technically considered a 427 00:25:12,760 --> 00:25:17,600 Speaker 1: gender neutral term, because i've and I have seen plenty 428 00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,480 Speaker 1: of photos of the folks that they recruited to power 429 00:25:21,560 --> 00:25:24,119 Speaker 1: this vessel. In these trials, and you see plenty of 430 00:25:24,119 --> 00:25:26,880 Speaker 1: female oarsmen on the crew as well, and they did 431 00:25:27,040 --> 00:25:30,080 Speaker 1: five seasons of trials between nineteen eighty seven and nineteen 432 00:25:30,160 --> 00:25:32,080 Speaker 1: ninety four, so. 433 00:25:32,119 --> 00:25:33,879 Speaker 2: I guess some people got really good at rowing. 434 00:25:34,480 --> 00:25:36,240 Speaker 1: Yeah. I mean, you can imagine where there would have 435 00:25:36,280 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: been a huge sense of camaraderie in this. If you 436 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:43,840 Speaker 1: were a rowing enthusiast or and or you know, an 437 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:48,200 Speaker 1: ancient maritime warfare enthusiast, you know you'd want to get 438 00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 1: in there, cram into this vessel with all these people 439 00:25:51,920 --> 00:25:53,040 Speaker 1: and start pulling these oars. 440 00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:54,639 Speaker 2: Oh does it look fairly cozy? 441 00:25:55,520 --> 00:25:58,760 Speaker 1: It looks like there is a sense of camaraderie. And 442 00:25:59,640 --> 00:26:01,680 Speaker 1: the photos that I was looking at, you know, it's 443 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:03,960 Speaker 1: a very nice day in the Mediterranean, so there is 444 00:26:03,960 --> 00:26:07,000 Speaker 1: a certain vacation he feel to these photos. But also 445 00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:10,000 Speaker 1: it is a lot of people crammed into and above 446 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:12,879 Speaker 1: the whole of a vessel, pulling oars and having to 447 00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:16,760 Speaker 1: do so in a skilled and determined fashion. I've read 448 00:26:16,760 --> 00:26:20,639 Speaker 1: that the Olympias boasted an armament of the vessel is 449 00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: still round it, but it has a bronze ram on 450 00:26:25,200 --> 00:26:29,160 Speaker 1: the bow, ten spears and four archers. But I don't 451 00:26:29,200 --> 00:26:31,560 Speaker 1: think it actually engaged in any military activity in the 452 00:26:31,600 --> 00:26:35,280 Speaker 1: late eighties and early nineties, just to be clear on that. 453 00:26:35,720 --> 00:26:37,280 Speaker 1: But I can't help but think that it would have 454 00:26:37,280 --> 00:26:38,800 Speaker 1: made for a nice time travel movie. 455 00:26:38,880 --> 00:26:42,480 Speaker 2: Right. Wait, you mean the replica and its krew gets 456 00:26:42,480 --> 00:26:44,200 Speaker 2: sent to the past and they have to fight their 457 00:26:44,200 --> 00:26:46,720 Speaker 2: way through through I don't know, battles in the fifth 458 00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:50,320 Speaker 2: century BCE or a bunch of try Reams from the 459 00:26:50,320 --> 00:26:53,040 Speaker 2: fifth century BCE come to now and threaten all of 460 00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,160 Speaker 2: our modern navies and only a Tryream can fight them back. 461 00:26:56,400 --> 00:26:59,119 Speaker 1: I think both concepts could work, and I think a 462 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: comedy would perhaps work well, you know, you could have 463 00:27:02,640 --> 00:27:07,280 Speaker 1: this almost almost kind of like the Odyssey or something, right, 464 00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: except it's having to return home from the future or something. Anyway, 465 00:27:12,720 --> 00:27:14,959 Speaker 1: the key findings from the Olympus trials, and there are 466 00:27:14,960 --> 00:27:16,520 Speaker 1: a lot of findings. There are a lot of these trials, 467 00:27:16,560 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: and again a lot of this was about, you know, 468 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:22,680 Speaker 1: creating space to then have these more nuanced discussions about 469 00:27:22,680 --> 00:27:24,960 Speaker 1: what they got right and what they perhaps got wrong. 470 00:27:25,440 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 1: But apparently they found that chiefly a three level war 471 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:32,399 Speaker 1: system is viable. Prior to this, some scholars had doubted 472 00:27:32,440 --> 00:27:35,680 Speaker 1: that it was actually possible to have three levels of oarsmen. 473 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: They also found that it was both fast and highly maneuverable. 474 00:27:39,200 --> 00:27:42,320 Speaker 1: I think with this model they were able to reach 475 00:27:42,840 --> 00:27:45,280 Speaker 1: maximum more speeds of just under nine knots. But I 476 00:27:45,280 --> 00:27:47,920 Speaker 1: think there are some discussions about how maybe that was 477 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:51,000 Speaker 1: too slow, maybe the vessel was too heavy. Again, there's 478 00:27:51,040 --> 00:27:53,240 Speaker 1: a lot of back and forth as part of the 479 00:27:54,200 --> 00:27:58,520 Speaker 1: research surrounding it. But Fagan and Rencoff, and by the way, 480 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:03,639 Speaker 1: Rencoff was a rowing master, professor of ancient history and 481 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,800 Speaker 1: served as chair of the Trirene Trust that carried out 482 00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:11,680 Speaker 1: the Olympus, the Olympia's construction and those trials. They state 483 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:14,600 Speaker 1: that it's now widely accepted that this ship is likely 484 00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:19,040 Speaker 1: a generally accurate representation of what these ships were like. Again, 485 00:28:19,119 --> 00:28:23,480 Speaker 1: it seems unlikely that we'd ever know for sure on 486 00:28:23,520 --> 00:28:28,280 Speaker 1: this without time travel, but it seems generally on the money, 487 00:28:28,359 --> 00:28:31,040 Speaker 1: or close enough to the money for us to to 488 00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,800 Speaker 1: use it as a means of understanding what these vessels were. 489 00:28:35,200 --> 00:28:37,520 Speaker 1: I included a couple of photos here in our outline, 490 00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,440 Speaker 1: and everyone out there can look these up as well. 491 00:28:40,480 --> 00:28:45,400 Speaker 1: But yeah, the ship at sea with oars out sales 492 00:28:45,520 --> 00:28:49,520 Speaker 1: raised looks absolutely amazing, and there's a peek inside at 493 00:28:49,760 --> 00:28:52,520 Speaker 1: the folks pulling the oars. Again. It seems like they're 494 00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: having a great time, but it is not spacious. 495 00:28:57,000 --> 00:29:00,000 Speaker 2: Also, I see there's a multi level seating with people 496 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:01,800 Speaker 2: next to each other. I guess that's to get the 497 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,640 Speaker 2: different angles of the ores in play, so a lot 498 00:29:05,680 --> 00:29:08,840 Speaker 2: of people are sort of head level with their neighbors' butts. 499 00:29:09,160 --> 00:29:12,480 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, when we're talking about three levels, don't think 500 00:29:12,520 --> 00:29:16,000 Speaker 1: of it like an apartment building. There's a there's like 501 00:29:16,040 --> 00:29:20,880 Speaker 1: a clear dividing point between first floor, second floor, third floor. No, 502 00:29:21,000 --> 00:29:24,360 Speaker 1: it's all it's all crammed in there, and it's all part. 503 00:29:24,880 --> 00:29:27,880 Speaker 1: It's not like an ice cream cone scoop scenario. It's 504 00:29:28,240 --> 00:29:33,880 Speaker 1: all incorporated into the design, and that design is ultimately 505 00:29:34,520 --> 00:29:38,240 Speaker 1: a large part of it is about powering that ram 506 00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:39,080 Speaker 1: That's right. 507 00:29:39,160 --> 00:29:42,960 Speaker 2: So, Rob, you asked me to take a look at 508 00:29:43,200 --> 00:29:48,320 Speaker 2: ramming and ramming maneuvers for this episode, and this was 509 00:29:48,360 --> 00:29:51,160 Speaker 2: a lot more interesting and complex than I expected. I 510 00:29:51,200 --> 00:29:53,560 Speaker 2: was just thinking, yeah, you know what, how complex can 511 00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:55,160 Speaker 2: it be? You're just trying to run into each other. 512 00:29:55,240 --> 00:29:57,120 Speaker 2: But no, it's a delicate dance. 513 00:29:57,600 --> 00:30:00,240 Speaker 1: Yeah, I have to admit that it was more complex 514 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:02,400 Speaker 1: than I was expecting as well, And I think part 515 00:30:02,440 --> 00:30:05,000 Speaker 1: of it is that I watched twenty Thousand Leagues under 516 00:30:05,040 --> 00:30:07,120 Speaker 1: the Sea, the nineteen fifty four adaptation a lot as 517 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:10,160 Speaker 1: a kid, in which, of course the fictional submarine the 518 00:30:10,200 --> 00:30:16,080 Speaker 1: Nautilus rams enemy ships or enemies perceived enemies of Captain Nemo. 519 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:19,840 Speaker 1: And again, this may be more nuanced in the film 520 00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,200 Speaker 1: than I remember, and maybe more so in the text, 521 00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:24,720 Speaker 1: but I seem to think of it as just the 522 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,800 Speaker 1: Nautilus just goes as fast as it can and just 523 00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,400 Speaker 1: crashes through whatever it's trying to destroy, And so it's 524 00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,720 Speaker 1: easy for me to fall back on that and think, oh, yeah, 525 00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,360 Speaker 1: well ramming speed with a triream, it's just row as 526 00:30:36,360 --> 00:30:38,680 Speaker 1: fast as possible and hit them with as much velocity 527 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:39,320 Speaker 1: as you can muster. 528 00:30:39,600 --> 00:30:42,920 Speaker 2: It's been a while since I've read twenty Thousand Leagues 529 00:30:43,000 --> 00:30:45,840 Speaker 2: under the Sea, but I recall a plotline early in 530 00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: the book where somebody, maybe it's a Professor Aronnax or 531 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:52,240 Speaker 2: one of his rifles, proposes that all of the ships 532 00:30:52,280 --> 00:30:55,040 Speaker 2: that are mysteriously sinking around the world. This is like 533 00:30:55,120 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 2: the inciting incident or phenomena phenomenon that begins the story 534 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:03,920 Speaker 2: that they are being attacked by a gigantic narwhale. It's like, 535 00:31:03,960 --> 00:31:05,960 Speaker 2: you know, the unicorn of the sea. It has this 536 00:31:06,040 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 2: big spike, and you know, we all know that it 537 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:11,320 Speaker 2: grows to a length of forty feet, but imagine it 538 00:31:11,360 --> 00:31:13,720 Speaker 2: could grow even bigger. It does not grow to a 539 00:31:13,800 --> 00:31:17,640 Speaker 2: length of forty feet, but imagine it could grow even bigger. 540 00:31:17,720 --> 00:31:20,600 Speaker 2: And that's what is going on. And now, of course 541 00:31:20,680 --> 00:31:23,040 Speaker 2: what is revealed later on is that they're being rammed, 542 00:31:23,040 --> 00:31:26,480 Speaker 2: as you said, by Captain Nemo's submarine. And of course 543 00:31:26,640 --> 00:31:29,560 Speaker 2: ramming as a weapon does indeed play a major role 544 00:31:29,680 --> 00:31:33,960 Speaker 2: in naval warfare. Going back into antiquity, now, you can 545 00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:37,720 Speaker 2: think of lots of reasons that ships would have always 546 00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,760 Speaker 2: been important in war. As we've talked about. You know, 547 00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 2: they can move troops, they can move cargo and provisions, 548 00:31:43,800 --> 00:31:46,800 Speaker 2: they can engage in scouting, they can deliver messages and 549 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:51,160 Speaker 2: so forth. But this age of war, galleys, the naval 550 00:31:51,200 --> 00:31:54,240 Speaker 2: ships powered by rows of oars, really showed the importance 551 00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,680 Speaker 2: of direct ship to ship combat, and thus the speed, 552 00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,120 Speaker 2: design and maneuver ability of the galleys themselves became paramount 553 00:32:03,360 --> 00:32:07,880 Speaker 2: and that's what ultimately leads to this extremely optimized design 554 00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:13,040 Speaker 2: of the trirem. So in ancient naval conflict, as we've 555 00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,960 Speaker 2: already alluded to, there are several different methods you could 556 00:32:16,000 --> 00:32:19,240 Speaker 2: have of attacking other boats on the water. You could 557 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:22,080 Speaker 2: have archers on your boat. You could come up alongside 558 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: that boat and shoot at enemy troops or the crew 559 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,000 Speaker 2: on board. You could have marines armed soldiers like maybe 560 00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:33,080 Speaker 2: the Greek boats might have some hoplite soldiers that would 561 00:32:33,120 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: board enemy boats and try to attack and overwhelm the crew. 562 00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:41,320 Speaker 2: Or you could attack the physical boat itself. So a 563 00:32:41,480 --> 00:32:46,479 Speaker 2: major goal of the trirem in ancient warfare was to 564 00:32:46,640 --> 00:32:52,960 Speaker 2: destroy or more accurately, immobilize enemy ships, and the primary 565 00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:56,000 Speaker 2: method of doing this was ramming. So before you had 566 00:32:56,040 --> 00:32:58,920 Speaker 2: the cannon and the torpedo, you had the ram. 567 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: The ancient mariners' rights no longer was a sea battle, 568 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,120 Speaker 1: simply a match in which ships closed and the marines 569 00:33:06,160 --> 00:33:08,719 Speaker 1: on each side fought it out, a sort of land 570 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:13,320 Speaker 1: fight transferred to shipboard, as in Ramsey's successful attack on 571 00:33:13,360 --> 00:33:16,680 Speaker 1: the Sea Raiders. The ram changed all that. It shifted 572 00:33:16,680 --> 00:33:19,240 Speaker 1: the emphasis to the men that manned the oars. 573 00:33:19,680 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 2: That's right, the boat is the weapon, and the target 574 00:33:23,400 --> 00:33:26,520 Speaker 2: of the attack is the other boat. And so the 575 00:33:26,520 --> 00:33:30,040 Speaker 2: way you wheeld the weapon is to guide and power 576 00:33:30,240 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 2: the boat. That's right. 577 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 1: And in this you end up depending on a highly 578 00:33:34,040 --> 00:33:38,640 Speaker 1: skilled rowing crew that could, in Case's words, respond instantly 579 00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:40,160 Speaker 1: and accurately to command. 580 00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,800 Speaker 2: They had to be on the same page, They had 581 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 2: to act fast, with great strength and power, and they 582 00:33:45,840 --> 00:33:48,560 Speaker 2: had to all know what they were doing at the 583 00:33:48,600 --> 00:33:53,640 Speaker 2: same time synchronization. So, picking up again on your analogy earlier, 584 00:33:54,080 --> 00:33:56,360 Speaker 2: rob of the Trireme as kind of like a jet 585 00:33:56,480 --> 00:34:00,520 Speaker 2: fighter of its time. It was a highly optimized vessel. 586 00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:06,640 Speaker 2: It was stripped down to maximize rowing power. Generally, on 587 00:34:06,760 --> 00:34:09,560 Speaker 2: a Trirem there were no living quarters on these boats. 588 00:34:09,680 --> 00:34:14,240 Speaker 2: They were essentially all engine. But that engine was human bodies. 589 00:34:15,360 --> 00:34:18,200 Speaker 2: And so as such, a weakness of the Trirem in 590 00:34:18,280 --> 00:34:21,120 Speaker 2: a way was that it would generally have to go 591 00:34:21,320 --> 00:34:24,040 Speaker 2: ashore each day to meet the needs of its crew 592 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,480 Speaker 2: for food, supplies and rest. This is not a boat 593 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,480 Speaker 2: for people to live on at sea for long periods 594 00:34:30,520 --> 00:34:33,880 Speaker 2: of time. Again, it's all engine and the people are 595 00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:34,480 Speaker 2: the engine. 596 00:34:34,920 --> 00:34:36,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, And you can see this when you look at 597 00:34:36,680 --> 00:34:40,800 Speaker 1: the modern photos of that reconstruction, Like there's just not 598 00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:44,800 Speaker 1: a lot of a parent room in there, so you 599 00:34:45,040 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 1: can't imagine how a meal would potentially work on there, 600 00:34:48,200 --> 00:34:51,120 Speaker 1: or how you would handle anything like a shift change 601 00:34:51,360 --> 00:34:52,879 Speaker 1: or sleeping and so forth. 602 00:34:53,160 --> 00:34:56,399 Speaker 2: There are accounts of people doing it, like there's one 603 00:34:56,480 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 2: famous account in the ancient world of a trirem that 604 00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:03,840 Speaker 2: was sent out after another one to try to overtake 605 00:35:03,920 --> 00:35:06,600 Speaker 2: it to countermand the orders it had been given, and 606 00:35:07,440 --> 00:35:11,080 Speaker 2: so allegedly like the rowers like worked in shifts so 607 00:35:11,120 --> 00:35:13,279 Speaker 2: they could row all night and one slept while the 608 00:35:13,320 --> 00:35:15,719 Speaker 2: other road, And so there are stories that this kind 609 00:35:15,760 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 2: of thing could be done in the extreme, but generally 610 00:35:18,239 --> 00:35:20,880 Speaker 2: this is not a vessel to live on for extended 611 00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:26,160 Speaker 2: periods of time. It is made for battle, and so 612 00:35:26,320 --> 00:35:29,640 Speaker 2: a major factor deciding the success of an ancient war 613 00:35:29,760 --> 00:35:33,680 Speaker 2: galley was the ability of its crew to perform. The 614 00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:37,120 Speaker 2: corollary of that is that human exhaustion could mean death, 615 00:35:37,760 --> 00:35:41,320 Speaker 2: So ancient trirems often would be fitted with sales of 616 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 2: some kind. They might have a main mast sail that 617 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:47,439 Speaker 2: could be used to save the crew's strength while they're 618 00:35:47,640 --> 00:35:52,080 Speaker 2: just sort of cruising somewhere, and then would generally not 619 00:35:52,360 --> 00:35:55,440 Speaker 2: be used for battle. The boat might like leave ashore 620 00:35:55,719 --> 00:35:58,840 Speaker 2: its main mast sail if contact with the enemy was imminent. 621 00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 2: The goal of naval combat, this ship to ship combat 622 00:36:02,920 --> 00:36:06,959 Speaker 2: at the time was to crush or puncture the hull 623 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:12,480 Speaker 2: of the enemy vessel to or sometimes alternately, to shear 624 00:36:12,600 --> 00:36:15,600 Speaker 2: off its ores on one side, either of which would 625 00:36:15,760 --> 00:36:19,279 Speaker 2: disable it in battle. Now in the modern era, if 626 00:36:19,360 --> 00:36:22,000 Speaker 2: we think of puncturing the hull of a ship, we 627 00:36:22,120 --> 00:36:25,080 Speaker 2: think this means the goal is to sink the enemy ship, 628 00:36:25,160 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 2: to send it to the bottom of the ocean. But 629 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,880 Speaker 2: that's not necessarily the case. In fact, that's usually not 630 00:36:31,040 --> 00:36:35,439 Speaker 2: the case. In ancient Mediterranean naval combat. The ship, being 631 00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:38,480 Speaker 2: made of wood and lightly constructed and not full of 632 00:36:39,040 --> 00:36:42,719 Speaker 2: much else, would usually not sink entirely, but would become 633 00:36:42,800 --> 00:36:46,080 Speaker 2: a floating wreck which the winner of the battle could 634 00:36:46,160 --> 00:36:49,360 Speaker 2: later toe away for salvage or for you know, just 635 00:36:49,440 --> 00:36:50,399 Speaker 2: to show off what you did. 636 00:36:50,960 --> 00:36:53,879 Speaker 1: Yeah in case In points out that there would often 637 00:36:54,000 --> 00:36:58,080 Speaker 1: be a capture of the enemy's ship's ram as a trophy. 638 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:01,200 Speaker 1: This is apparently common practice, though again you can recognize 639 00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:03,680 Speaker 1: the challenges involved. You know it would have to be 640 00:37:04,560 --> 00:37:06,520 Speaker 1: It would have to be a matter of capturing the 641 00:37:06,520 --> 00:37:08,560 Speaker 1: whole vessel and not just all right, we punctured them. 642 00:37:08,800 --> 00:37:10,440 Speaker 1: Now everyone go get that ram. 643 00:37:10,400 --> 00:37:13,960 Speaker 2: Hit right, Oh right, I mean it would still be 644 00:37:14,080 --> 00:37:16,360 Speaker 2: full of hostile enemy troops and all that. So like, 645 00:37:16,480 --> 00:37:19,719 Speaker 2: there's some more there's some more work to be done here. 646 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,440 Speaker 1: Yeah. And one thing that case mentioned is that the 647 00:37:23,520 --> 00:37:27,400 Speaker 1: whole like grappling and boarding actions that never completely goes away. 648 00:37:27,880 --> 00:37:32,200 Speaker 1: But this ramming, this becomes like the key attack method. 649 00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:35,000 Speaker 1: This becomes like the main focus of the ship design. 650 00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:39,560 Speaker 2: Yeah. So some ancient sources that refer to rammed ships 651 00:37:40,320 --> 00:37:43,279 Speaker 2: describe what happens to them not as sinking, but as 652 00:37:43,920 --> 00:37:47,600 Speaker 2: a word that translates to dipping. They would dip, so 653 00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,360 Speaker 2: I think the idea is they would become flooded and useless. 654 00:37:50,640 --> 00:37:53,239 Speaker 2: But because again they're wooden and lightly built, they don't 655 00:37:53,280 --> 00:37:55,399 Speaker 2: sink to the bottom, so they're just like sitting there. 656 00:37:56,000 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 2: You can imagine the physical aftermath in the area of 657 00:37:59,160 --> 00:38:02,759 Speaker 2: an ancient naval would be a like a fascinating and 658 00:38:02,880 --> 00:38:03,720 Speaker 2: terrifying place. 659 00:38:04,440 --> 00:38:04,640 Speaker 1: Yeah. 660 00:38:14,520 --> 00:38:17,160 Speaker 2: So what was going on with the ramming itself? Well, 661 00:38:17,640 --> 00:38:19,600 Speaker 2: from what I've been reading, it seems to me that 662 00:38:19,920 --> 00:38:25,680 Speaker 2: ramming is primarily a maneuvering game. So trirems were built 663 00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:29,640 Speaker 2: with of course, dedicated ramming mechanisms. So sticking out of 664 00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:32,319 Speaker 2: the front of the boat there would be a thick 665 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:36,800 Speaker 2: reinforced wooden spike that extends from the keel, and that 666 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:40,080 Speaker 2: would be capped with a metal covering. So like an 667 00:38:40,080 --> 00:38:44,719 Speaker 2: Athenian trirem would would have a wooden extension from the 668 00:38:44,800 --> 00:38:48,560 Speaker 2: keel and just around the water line, maybe right ad 669 00:38:48,680 --> 00:38:50,719 Speaker 2: or right below the water line, and this would be 670 00:38:50,800 --> 00:38:55,560 Speaker 2: covered in a bronze sheath. A later and popular Athenian 671 00:38:56,480 --> 00:39:01,799 Speaker 2: ram design would have like three horizontally aligned fins, these 672 00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,680 Speaker 2: sort of thin fins lined up in rows, and I'll 673 00:39:05,680 --> 00:39:07,720 Speaker 2: get to the reason for that in a minute. Speed 674 00:39:07,920 --> 00:39:12,360 Speaker 2: and maneuverability were a crucial part of the battle. In 675 00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,880 Speaker 2: order to perform a successful ram, the galley would need 676 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:19,200 Speaker 2: to set up its maneuver correctly. It would need to 677 00:39:19,760 --> 00:39:23,360 Speaker 2: build up speed so that it could get in position 678 00:39:23,600 --> 00:39:27,200 Speaker 2: to gain an advantageous angle, and it would be trying 679 00:39:27,280 --> 00:39:32,279 Speaker 2: to come into the other boat's broadside, so before the 680 00:39:32,640 --> 00:39:36,080 Speaker 2: actual ramming itself. A major part of ancient Mediterranean naval 681 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,920 Speaker 2: tactics seemed to be focused on getting behind the enemy, 682 00:39:40,440 --> 00:39:43,560 Speaker 2: getting through the enemy lines, and positioning your coming around 683 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:47,480 Speaker 2: and positioning yourself behind the enemy ship, because attacking from 684 00:39:47,520 --> 00:39:49,800 Speaker 2: the rear made it easier to get the angle you 685 00:39:50,040 --> 00:39:52,279 Speaker 2: wanted and to make it harder for the enemy ship 686 00:39:52,360 --> 00:39:53,160 Speaker 2: to attack you. 687 00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:56,200 Speaker 1: That's right, it's got to in order for a ship 688 00:39:56,280 --> 00:39:59,960 Speaker 1: that you're facing from behind to turn around and potential 689 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:01,640 Speaker 1: we come back and face you, it would have to 690 00:40:01,719 --> 00:40:04,960 Speaker 1: expose its entire side to your ramming force. 691 00:40:05,320 --> 00:40:11,560 Speaker 2: Exactly. Yes. Another very important consideration is not getting stuck 692 00:40:12,000 --> 00:40:15,680 Speaker 2: after the ramming attack. So imagine you use your ram 693 00:40:15,960 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 2: at the prow of your boat to punch a hole 694 00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,640 Speaker 2: in the enemy's hull, and then your ram gets stuck. 695 00:40:22,400 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 2: It gets stuck in the hole that it punched. You 696 00:40:25,280 --> 00:40:28,600 Speaker 2: are now just as disabled as the other ship, and 697 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:31,080 Speaker 2: if it's dipping down in the water, you're going to 698 00:40:31,120 --> 00:40:34,399 Speaker 2: be dipping with it. You're also vulnerable to getting your 699 00:40:34,560 --> 00:40:37,640 Speaker 2: own hull rammed from the side because you're just sitting 700 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,480 Speaker 2: there with your broadside exposed to enemy ships, and you 701 00:40:40,560 --> 00:40:41,320 Speaker 2: can't move. 702 00:40:41,880 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: Right because another one could be right behind you. Now 703 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:46,839 Speaker 1: we got three ships all crashed together. 704 00:40:47,400 --> 00:40:50,640 Speaker 2: So as important as the ramming maneuver was, an equally 705 00:40:50,719 --> 00:40:54,239 Speaker 2: important thing was designing the ram and the ship so 706 00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:56,920 Speaker 2: as not to get not to punch through and get 707 00:40:56,960 --> 00:40:59,480 Speaker 2: stuck in the first place, and then also to have 708 00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:02,600 Speaker 2: the crew master the ability of going in reverse to 709 00:41:02,760 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 2: disengage after a successful attack. Now I was reading a 710 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:10,440 Speaker 2: bit more about some boat design considerations in a book 711 00:41:10,719 --> 00:41:15,160 Speaker 2: called Archaeology and the Social History of Ships by Richard A. 712 00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:19,960 Speaker 2: Gould from Cambridge University Press, twenty eleven. Ramming as an 713 00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:25,520 Speaker 2: attack maneuver introduces stresses on the ship's hull integrity. Of course, 714 00:41:25,680 --> 00:41:29,640 Speaker 2: right your goule calls ramming quote controlled collision, and that's 715 00:41:29,880 --> 00:41:33,160 Speaker 2: that is what it is. You're just crashing into another ship, 716 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:35,320 Speaker 2: but you're hoping to do it in a way that 717 00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,760 Speaker 2: hurts the other ship more than it hurts you. Apparently, 718 00:41:38,840 --> 00:41:42,520 Speaker 2: some scholars have suggested that trirems may have had short 719 00:41:42,800 --> 00:41:46,759 Speaker 2: use lives, given the risks to their structure, both from 720 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:50,800 Speaker 2: being rammed but also from absorbing the shock of delivering 721 00:41:50,880 --> 00:41:52,320 Speaker 2: a ramming attack. 722 00:41:52,640 --> 00:41:54,960 Speaker 1: Wow, and you can only imagine that would that would 723 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:59,840 Speaker 1: add to this idea that they were costly vehicles to you, 724 00:42:00,320 --> 00:42:02,839 Speaker 1: because yeah, if you could only get like maybe one 725 00:42:02,960 --> 00:42:05,680 Speaker 1: hit out of this vehicle, like now it's ruined now 726 00:42:05,719 --> 00:42:07,640 Speaker 1: it's it's totaled and you've got to build another one 727 00:42:07,680 --> 00:42:08,200 Speaker 1: from scrap. 728 00:42:08,719 --> 00:42:11,279 Speaker 2: I mean, hopefully it's not totaled after one hit, but 729 00:42:11,480 --> 00:42:13,920 Speaker 2: you know there, the more hits you do with it, 730 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:16,759 Speaker 2: the more risk you have that you are going to 731 00:42:16,880 --> 00:42:20,880 Speaker 2: incur damage to the ship itself. Gould writes, quote early 732 00:42:21,040 --> 00:42:24,920 Speaker 2: rams were pointed and risk to becoming stuck in the 733 00:42:25,000 --> 00:42:28,040 Speaker 2: opposing ship's hull. So if you look up pictures of these, 734 00:42:28,160 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 2: these earlier rams were often more they look just kind 735 00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:34,200 Speaker 2: of like a horn or a tusk or something. But 736 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:38,560 Speaker 2: but Gould says, quote trirem rams were blunt with a 737 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,440 Speaker 2: squared off face and were intended to pound and shatter 738 00:42:42,680 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 2: the planks in the opposing ship's hull rather than punch 739 00:42:47,040 --> 00:42:50,200 Speaker 2: a hole through it. So you were trying to to 740 00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,640 Speaker 2: damage the target ship's hull in way that maybe cracks 741 00:42:53,719 --> 00:42:57,320 Speaker 2: the wood or takes it or causes damage to a 742 00:42:57,440 --> 00:43:02,759 Speaker 2: joint or something that that ruins its watertight integrity. It 743 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:05,520 Speaker 2: will start to take on water. That's the goal. But 744 00:43:05,640 --> 00:43:08,080 Speaker 2: you do not want to just punch a hole all 745 00:43:08,160 --> 00:43:10,600 Speaker 2: the way through and get stuck inside it again. For 746 00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,120 Speaker 2: all the reasons we've talked about that that is a 747 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 2: risk to you. So this delicate balance of considerations not 748 00:43:17,760 --> 00:43:20,560 Speaker 2: only had implications for the design of the ram and 749 00:43:20,719 --> 00:43:23,840 Speaker 2: the ship, but also for the crew, because a ramming 750 00:43:23,920 --> 00:43:26,959 Speaker 2: attack had to be fast enough that the target ship 751 00:43:27,080 --> 00:43:31,080 Speaker 2: could not escape and fast enough that the impact force 752 00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:33,680 Speaker 2: would break through the planks of the enemy's hull and 753 00:43:33,800 --> 00:43:36,120 Speaker 2: make it take on water. But at the same time, 754 00:43:36,400 --> 00:43:40,480 Speaker 2: it could not be so fast that the impact caused 755 00:43:40,640 --> 00:43:44,040 Speaker 2: damage to the attacking ship or punched through and got 756 00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:47,680 Speaker 2: the ram stuck. So this made me sort of rethink 757 00:43:48,320 --> 00:43:51,800 Speaker 2: the idea of speed and the triream. Based on what 758 00:43:51,880 --> 00:43:55,120 Speaker 2: I'm reading in this book by Gould here, it seems 759 00:43:55,160 --> 00:43:59,200 Speaker 2: that top speed was especially important for maneuvering in trying 760 00:43:59,280 --> 00:44:03,800 Speaker 2: to get behigh to the enemy and into the advantageous position. 761 00:44:03,960 --> 00:44:05,960 Speaker 2: For a ramming charge, you want to be in the 762 00:44:06,040 --> 00:44:08,560 Speaker 2: right position and have your enemy in the wrong position. 763 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,839 Speaker 2: But top speed was not necessarily for ramming itself, because 764 00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:16,320 Speaker 2: ramming at top speed could have been dangerous to the 765 00:44:16,440 --> 00:44:17,400 Speaker 2: attacking galley. 766 00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:22,680 Speaker 1: Wow, so ramming speed could also conceivably mean or like 767 00:44:22,920 --> 00:44:25,600 Speaker 1: ramming deceleration once you're in a position. 768 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:27,880 Speaker 2: Based on what I've read, yes, it seems like you 769 00:44:28,200 --> 00:44:30,840 Speaker 2: don't want to hit the hit the opposing boat at 770 00:44:30,880 --> 00:44:34,399 Speaker 2: top speed again because of risks to your own hull 771 00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:37,160 Speaker 2: integrity absorbing the shock of that hit, And you don't 772 00:44:37,160 --> 00:44:39,719 Speaker 2: want to get stuck, so you just want to you 773 00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,960 Speaker 2: want to hit it just hard enough to damage it now. 774 00:44:43,320 --> 00:44:46,440 Speaker 2: Gould also points out that there could have been additional 775 00:44:46,920 --> 00:44:51,719 Speaker 2: things that that ancient shipbuilders did to reinforce the hull 776 00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:55,040 Speaker 2: for battles and make it make it better able to 777 00:44:55,120 --> 00:44:58,560 Speaker 2: absorb the shock of a ramming hit, Like there was 778 00:44:58,600 --> 00:45:01,640 Speaker 2: a practice of apparently using rope cables wrapped around the 779 00:45:01,680 --> 00:45:05,719 Speaker 2: ship's hull to help provide strength during a battle. So 780 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 2: there could be other things that would reinforce it that 781 00:45:08,640 --> 00:45:11,000 Speaker 2: we don't fully know about, if that makes sense. But 782 00:45:11,160 --> 00:45:13,160 Speaker 2: like you were saying, it does go against the idea 783 00:45:13,160 --> 00:45:15,600 Speaker 2: of the Nautilus trying to just ram into something at 784 00:45:15,640 --> 00:45:18,880 Speaker 2: top speed, because yeah, if the Nautilus did that, wouldn't 785 00:45:18,920 --> 00:45:21,560 Speaker 2: it probably actually get stuck in the ship that it hit. 786 00:45:22,040 --> 00:45:24,600 Speaker 1: Yeah, or I also couldn't help but think about Star 787 00:45:24,719 --> 00:45:27,279 Speaker 1: Trek a little bit, which makes sense. Star Trek and 788 00:45:27,400 --> 00:45:31,360 Speaker 1: its space combat is very much based on naval combat. 789 00:45:32,040 --> 00:45:35,640 Speaker 1: You know, It's it's basically just a space age variation 790 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,880 Speaker 1: on all of that, and so if but with no 791 00:45:38,040 --> 00:45:41,560 Speaker 1: up and down right right, But but you could imagine 792 00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: a scenario where if you know, Captain Picard wanted to 793 00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,040 Speaker 1: need or needed to ram another ship, he wouldn't want 794 00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,319 Speaker 1: to like punch it into like into warp. That would 795 00:45:51,360 --> 00:45:55,439 Speaker 1: be crazy, like that would just like atomize both vessels, right, Yeah, 796 00:45:55,480 --> 00:45:58,680 Speaker 1: he would need to depend on a lesser velocity one 797 00:45:58,760 --> 00:46:02,520 Speaker 1: that would accomplish whatever the goal is, you know, like 798 00:46:03,120 --> 00:46:05,520 Speaker 1: I don't know, take out an engine on the enemy 799 00:46:05,600 --> 00:46:10,280 Speaker 1: vessel as opposed to just destroying everything, trekkies. I'm depending 800 00:46:10,320 --> 00:46:12,600 Speaker 1: on you to point out an example where something like 801 00:46:12,680 --> 00:46:15,560 Speaker 1: that surely happened. There had to have been some ramming 802 00:46:15,680 --> 00:46:18,040 Speaker 1: maneuvers at one point or another, and I just am 803 00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:18,880 Speaker 1: not thinking of them. 804 00:46:19,280 --> 00:46:21,880 Speaker 2: Oh man, I would love to see that. So one 805 00:46:22,120 --> 00:46:25,359 Speaker 2: one more question, if we're thinking about trying to zero 806 00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:30,240 Speaker 2: in on ideal ramming speed for one of these attacks. 807 00:46:30,719 --> 00:46:33,880 Speaker 2: I was reading in several sources. One was a book 808 00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,120 Speaker 2: by an author named Nick Fields called Athenian Trirem Versus 809 00:46:38,200 --> 00:46:42,120 Speaker 2: Persian Trirem The Greco Persian Wars four nine four forty nine. 810 00:46:42,880 --> 00:46:46,560 Speaker 2: This was published in twenty twenty two by Bloomsbury, and 811 00:46:46,680 --> 00:46:50,520 Speaker 2: this book contains interesting photos of a bronze ram sheath 812 00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:54,160 Speaker 2: that is from the ancient world. Maybe we'll come back 813 00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:57,839 Speaker 2: and talk about that in the next part. But because 814 00:46:57,840 --> 00:47:01,840 Speaker 2: it has some interesting design features, not just not just 815 00:47:01,960 --> 00:47:06,640 Speaker 2: four ramming efficiency, but a decorative design features that I 816 00:47:06,680 --> 00:47:09,680 Speaker 2: thought were interesting. But I just wanted to mention this 817 00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,000 Speaker 2: book because it gets into the idea of ramming speed. 818 00:47:12,360 --> 00:47:16,319 Speaker 2: So Fields says that if the target ship is either 819 00:47:16,440 --> 00:47:20,320 Speaker 2: stationary or moving towards you, and you can hit it 820 00:47:20,480 --> 00:47:25,080 Speaker 2: within an angle of between twenty and seventy degrees, the 821 00:47:25,160 --> 00:47:28,680 Speaker 2: attacking boat's ramming speed only needed to be about three 822 00:47:28,800 --> 00:47:32,680 Speaker 2: to four knots. So that's not that's not super fast. 823 00:47:32,840 --> 00:47:36,000 Speaker 2: That's between five point five and seven point five kilometers 824 00:47:36,040 --> 00:47:38,839 Speaker 2: per hour. And so that's if you're hitting it at 825 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,440 Speaker 2: a more oblique angle between twenty and seventy degrees. If 826 00:47:42,440 --> 00:47:45,120 Speaker 2: you're able to line up something closer to a ninety 827 00:47:45,239 --> 00:47:47,960 Speaker 2: degree hit, you hit it in the middle of its length. 828 00:47:48,640 --> 00:47:52,560 Speaker 2: Even less speed is required to break through and make 829 00:47:52,600 --> 00:47:56,040 Speaker 2: it take on water. That's probably between two to three knots, 830 00:47:56,400 --> 00:47:58,919 Speaker 2: which is between three point seven and five point five 831 00:47:59,120 --> 00:48:02,160 Speaker 2: kilometers per hour. There was also research published just this 832 00:48:02,280 --> 00:48:06,000 Speaker 2: year about the ramming speeds needed for trirems. This was 833 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:10,279 Speaker 2: published by Izak at All in the journal Journal of 834 00:48:10,480 --> 00:48:14,400 Speaker 2: Archaeological Science Reports in twenty twenty four. The paper is 835 00:48:14,480 --> 00:48:18,040 Speaker 2: called Damaging a Trirem by Ramming the Kinetics, and the 836 00:48:18,120 --> 00:48:22,200 Speaker 2: main finding was that quote, the minimum impact velocity required 837 00:48:22,239 --> 00:48:24,680 Speaker 2: to break a single plank is one point three to 838 00:48:24,920 --> 00:48:30,239 Speaker 2: three knots, So this was obviously well within the capabilities 839 00:48:30,280 --> 00:48:33,120 Speaker 2: of a trirem. There's really no question that it could 840 00:48:33,160 --> 00:48:36,160 Speaker 2: easily achieve the speeds needed to cause damage to the 841 00:48:36,239 --> 00:48:39,719 Speaker 2: opposing ships, and it didn't have to be near top 842 00:48:39,840 --> 00:48:41,839 Speaker 2: speed to do it. They could go at a quite 843 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:46,320 Speaker 2: achievable speed and cause that damage with minimal risk to 844 00:48:47,200 --> 00:48:50,560 Speaker 2: the attacking ship. And even on just an intuitive physics level, 845 00:48:50,600 --> 00:48:52,160 Speaker 2: it kind of makes sense that you wouldn't need that 846 00:48:52,360 --> 00:48:55,000 Speaker 2: much speed because, of course you are hitting a boat 847 00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:59,040 Speaker 2: at its weak point with your strongest point, and you've 848 00:48:59,120 --> 00:49:02,320 Speaker 2: got the four course of that impact concentrated down not 849 00:49:02,440 --> 00:49:06,000 Speaker 2: across like the full like height of its of the 850 00:49:06,040 --> 00:49:09,480 Speaker 2: ship's hull, but down into this small impact zone at 851 00:49:09,520 --> 00:49:10,319 Speaker 2: the tip of the ram. 852 00:49:10,920 --> 00:49:13,000 Speaker 1: Yeah. Yeah, I'd be interested to hear from many folks 853 00:49:13,080 --> 00:49:15,960 Speaker 1: out there who have a lot of experience around boats 854 00:49:16,000 --> 00:49:21,400 Speaker 1: who can speak to like accidental rammings or bumpings like 855 00:49:21,680 --> 00:49:25,799 Speaker 1: in harbor and docks situations like you know, like how 856 00:49:26,960 --> 00:49:29,800 Speaker 1: how easy is it to accidentally punch a hole in 857 00:49:29,880 --> 00:49:32,239 Speaker 1: the hull of a small vessel or at least a 858 00:49:32,239 --> 00:49:36,920 Speaker 1: wooden vessel that we're talking about wooden wooden ships here. Well, 859 00:49:36,960 --> 00:49:40,840 Speaker 1: this has been fascinating. Yeah, ramming one boat into another 860 00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:43,960 Speaker 1: seems that, you know, on the surface, to be something 861 00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:47,319 Speaker 1: that would be very simple and straightforward. But yeah, there's 862 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:50,000 Speaker 1: a there's a whole, a whole engineering problem to it. 863 00:49:50,040 --> 00:49:53,000 Speaker 1: There's an there's a there's a there's a military art 864 00:49:53,440 --> 00:49:58,239 Speaker 1: to it, and involves a discipline and maneuver. It's pretty fascinating, 865 00:49:58,600 --> 00:50:03,520 Speaker 1: and you can only imagine the mix of actual combat 866 00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:07,000 Speaker 1: scenario learning that would be involved in all of this, 867 00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:12,120 Speaker 1: as well as experiments and testing. Yeah, it's it kind 868 00:50:12,120 --> 00:50:14,120 Speaker 1: of boggles the mind. Gives you a new new respect 869 00:50:14,280 --> 00:50:16,239 Speaker 1: for what these ancient mariners were up. 870 00:50:16,160 --> 00:50:18,680 Speaker 2: To, how they had to all work together to make 871 00:50:18,760 --> 00:50:21,200 Speaker 2: the boat function as kind of a single organism. 872 00:50:21,960 --> 00:50:23,640 Speaker 1: All right, well, we're going to go ahead and close 873 00:50:23,680 --> 00:50:26,360 Speaker 1: out this episode, but we'll be back for a third. 874 00:50:26,560 --> 00:50:31,400 Speaker 1: I think the third episode will cap everything off, so 875 00:50:31,920 --> 00:50:34,879 Speaker 1: tune back in on Tuesday as we return with Part 876 00:50:34,960 --> 00:50:37,960 Speaker 1: three of Ancient Oars on the Wine Dark Sea. In 877 00:50:38,080 --> 00:50:40,319 Speaker 1: the meantime, we'll remind you that Stuff to Blow Your 878 00:50:40,360 --> 00:50:43,319 Speaker 1: Mind is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core 879 00:50:43,440 --> 00:50:47,600 Speaker 1: episodes on Tuesdays and Thursdays, short form episode on Wednesdays. 880 00:50:47,920 --> 00:50:50,680 Speaker 1: On Fridays, we set aside most serious concerns to talk 881 00:50:50,719 --> 00:50:53,560 Speaker 1: about a weird movie on Weird House Cinema. 882 00:50:54,080 --> 00:50:57,760 Speaker 2: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer, JJ Posway, 883 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:00,680 Speaker 2: and huge thanks to our guests for dous for today, 884 00:51:00,760 --> 00:51:03,879 Speaker 2: Andrew Howard. Appreciate you stepping in, Andrew. If you would 885 00:51:03,920 --> 00:51:06,120 Speaker 2: like to get in touch with us with feedback on 886 00:51:06,280 --> 00:51:08,520 Speaker 2: this episode or any other, to suggest a topic for 887 00:51:08,600 --> 00:51:11,280 Speaker 2: the future, or just to say hello, you can email 888 00:51:11,400 --> 00:51:14,239 Speaker 2: us at contact at Stuff to Blow your Mind dot Shaw. 889 00:51:21,560 --> 00:51:24,480 Speaker 2: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio. For 890 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:27,319 Speaker 2: more podcasts from my Heart Radio, visit the iHeartRadio app, 891 00:51:27,520 --> 00:51:30,240 Speaker 2: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you're listening to your favorite shows.