Speaker 1: Hey, guys, have you ever wanted to start your own country?
Speaker 2: Yeah, sure, the thought has crossed my mind. I just
Speaker 2: if for no other reason than to have my face
Speaker 2: on some currency.
Speaker 3: What do you, frank, I want to My dream would
Speaker 3: be able to buy all of the islands in the
Speaker 3: Pacific Ocean that the United States has basically blown up
Speaker 3: with nukes.
Speaker 1: Okay, that's a lot to unpack. All right, walk us
Speaker 1: through it. Start with two vlu Make sure you get
Speaker 1: the vanuatu. Make sure you go through. Are you gonna
Speaker 1: do Micronesia as a unit or are you gonna move through
Speaker 1: all the archipelago.
Speaker 3: We'll figure that out as we go.
Speaker 1: We'll figure that out as we go. And that is
Speaker 1: a classic Gregor McGregor real name, that's a that's a
Speaker 1: classic line from him. Uh Connor McGregor is different from
Speaker 1: Gregor McGregor, that's right.
Speaker 2: Also known as His Serene Highness Gregor the first Sovereign
Speaker 2: Prince of the State of Poiis Poiis and its dependencies,
Speaker 2: as well as the Psachik of the Poier Nation. This
Speaker 2: is about the time he visited London and made quite
Speaker 2: the impression.
Speaker 1: Yeah, so much so that we made a t shirt
Speaker 1: specifically for this episode. There's only one problem. When this
Speaker 1: guy visits London and sells so many people on his ideas,
Speaker 1: turns out he made up the nation.
Speaker 2: So let's hear all about Gregor McGregor and that time
Speaker 2: he invented a country and convinced people to invest in it.
Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome to the show,
Speaker 1: Ridiculous Historians. Have you ever heard of a barracuda also
Speaker 1: known as a bilker, a bunco, a hustler, a swindler,
Speaker 1: a crook, or, perhaps most familiar, a con man. Barracuda
Speaker 1: I know, isn't that cool? One of those that is
Speaker 1: a synonym for a con artist. You've never heard this before,
Speaker 1: Ben Well, neither have I? NOL have you? Super producer
Speaker 1: Casey Pegram.
Speaker 3: That is not a use of je I'm familiar with.
Speaker 1: Let's bring it back. I think we should welcome to
Speaker 1: the show. This is Ridiculous History, and I've got to say, Noel,
Speaker 1: you know how sometimes I don't know if this happens
Speaker 1: to you. Sometimes when I'm doing research, I'll fall into
Speaker 1: a tangential rabbit hole. Course, so in our time researching
Speaker 1: this episode, I fell into a rabbit hole of con
Speaker 1: artist culture and synonyms clearly, and grifters, Oh, we should
Speaker 1: have said grifter. That's my favorite, and all the different
Speaker 1: slang terms attributed to this, this subculture, this industry, and
Speaker 1: today's show does ultimately concern what I have to say
Speaker 1: is an objectively impressive grift.
Speaker 4: Yeah, And an objectively impressive grift from an objectively detestable
Speaker 4: human person.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, Oh, terrible garbage train of a person, for sure,
Speaker 1: And often described as an adventurer, which seems like a
Speaker 1: cool job title, but we'll find, in his case is
Speaker 1: maybe a little more generous than he deserves. But Noel,
Speaker 1: could you introduce us to this fellow Gregor McGregor.
Speaker 4: Gregor McGregor sounds made up the way that you hear
Speaker 4: his his other name.
Speaker 3: Yeah, he sort of.
Speaker 4: He once was a rosy cheeked young lad from the
Speaker 4: Scottish Highlands. He came from fighting stock, as this fantastic
Speaker 4: article from History Today by Victor Allen points out. You see,
Speaker 4: his grandfather was a well known klansman. That's not a
Speaker 4: kuk kuklusklansman, a klansman in the Scottish tradition whose name
Speaker 4: in Gaelic was Gregor the Beautiful and he was a
Speaker 4: member of something called the Black Watch and also kind
Speaker 4: of became an important figure in a region called Inverdean
Speaker 4: in Bretelbane, and he became something called a laird, which
Speaker 4: I imagine to be a lord, right right.
Speaker 1: And those terms are also not made up. We have
Speaker 1: to point out that this Gregor the Beautiful thing was
Speaker 1: probably not meant sarcastically like little job or something. No,
Speaker 1: it was a super ugly dude.
Speaker 3: No.
Speaker 4: I think he was probably a bit of a hunk
Speaker 4: because his grandson Gregor and all the portraits that we've
Speaker 4: been able to find of him, a pretty dashing figure.
Speaker 4: Real smoke show, Yes, absolutely, we welcome to the Wow.
Speaker 4: Wow man, you got some feels about greg Oh?
Speaker 1: No, I just wanted an excuse to use this wonderful
Speaker 1: phrase that John Oliver used recently.
Speaker 4: Oh what a smoke show or a snack?
Speaker 1: Absolute snack, that's good described it and I thought, Wow,
Speaker 1: John Oliver, that's pretty racy.
Speaker 4: And I'll tell you one thing that's very snackable about
Speaker 4: him are his delicious mutton chops, because they are a
Speaker 4: thing of beauty. My friend. So he had a career
Speaker 4: in a military career, pretty storied military career, sure didn'ty?
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, he had years and years of service in
Speaker 1: the British Army. And let's talk a little bit about
Speaker 1: how he got wrapped up in all these military shenanigans
Speaker 1: and escapades. McGregor used to joined the British Army at sixteen,
Speaker 1: which was that you have to be at least sixteen
Speaker 1: to join the army at this time. He joined in
Speaker 1: April eighteen oh three. Oh wait, we have to go back,
Speaker 1: did we say when he was born December seventeen eighty six?
Speaker 1: Crucial crucial date, crucial deep crucial date, the twenty fourth
Speaker 1: of December in fact. Anyhow, fast forwardy sixteen April of
Speaker 1: eighteen oh three. He signs up for the British Army.
Speaker 1: His family had purchased a commission for him to serve
Speaker 1: as an ensign in the fifty seventh West Middlesex Regiment
Speaker 1: of Foot.
Speaker 4: We purchased a commission for him, like bought his way
Speaker 4: into a cushy military job.
Speaker 1: Bought his way to officer status. So it cost around
Speaker 1: four hundred and fifty pounds. Interesting because his family is
Speaker 1: pretty well off. Sure, he's got he's a laired Yeah,
Speaker 1: he's got a landed grandfather. Right, So when he enters
Speaker 1: the military. Funny story, At the same time, something called
Speaker 1: the Napoleonic Wars is occurring in Europe.
Speaker 4: I feel as though we've heard of this before.
Speaker 1: I think so. I think so. Longtime listeners may may
Speaker 1: have a vague image of bunnies hopping into their heads.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and steamy fanfic involving our born Napoleon and Alexander bizarre.
Speaker 1: Yeaesha, Yes, it was bizarre, to say the least worth it. Oh,
Speaker 1: thank you. I'll be here for the rest of the show.
Speaker 4: Good. I need you, I need you, Ben, I need you.
Speaker 1: Are you gonna stay for the rest of this show too?
Speaker 1: We'll see Okay, great, we'll play it by ear And
Speaker 1: that's what McGregor was doing.
Speaker 4: Nice.
Speaker 1: Thanks. So he does serve in the military, and at
Speaker 1: this time he is actually doing the work. In February
Speaker 1: of eighteen oh four, less than a year into his training,
Speaker 1: he is promoted without purchasing a commission, so he earns
Speaker 1: the rank of lieutenant. And this is important because that
Speaker 1: kind of advancement usually takes much longer, like three years.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and what was he like in his twenties, he would.
Speaker 1: Still not be twenty. He would be around like maybe
Speaker 1: just about to turn eighteen.
Speaker 4: This is in eighteen four four, that's right.
Speaker 1: And as he is serving the British Army, he is
Speaker 1: still networking with people. He meets the daughter of a
Speaker 1: Royal Navy admiral named Maria Bowater, and she had a
Speaker 1: pretty hefty.
Speaker 4: Dowry, didn't he didn't he wife her up?
Speaker 3: He did?
Speaker 1: He did. He wifed her up. He also bought the
Speaker 1: rank of captain for about nine hundred pounds and he
Speaker 1: could have waited to get the promotion to earn it,
Speaker 1: but that would have taken seven years. And he was
Speaker 1: a man on a mission.
Speaker 4: Got palms being greased in this situation, aren't there? Ben?
Speaker 4: And I think we're already seeing some foreshadowing of our
Speaker 4: boy Gregor McGregor's slippery nature.
Speaker 1: That's right, Nol. And we see his extroverted nature go
Speaker 1: international pretty soon when he is in his twenties. He
Speaker 1: doesn't just stay in your trope, you see, he is interested,
Speaker 1: intrigued by the colonial revolts against Spanish rule in Latin America,
Speaker 1: particularly Venezuela.
Speaker 4: Venezuela and he kind of joins forces or offers his
Speaker 4: services to I guess this guy, Simon Bolivar bar right,
Speaker 4: who is like the head or the leader of this
Speaker 4: kind of rebellion. His nickname was the Liberator. In fact,
Speaker 4: earned that nickname by liberating what is now the republics
Speaker 4: of Venezuela, Colombia, Ecuador, Peru, Panama and Bolivia, made them
Speaker 4: sovereign states and freed them from Spanish rule. And this
Speaker 4: is all in the midst of that hub ub there, right, yes, yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 4: So how does a how does a young scotsman throw
Speaker 4: his hat in the ring to a revolt like this?
Speaker 4: I guess they needed all the help they can get,
Speaker 4: or what.
Speaker 1: They need all the help we could get. Also, we
Speaker 1: should point out that in December of eighteen eleven, Maria
Speaker 1: McGregor had passed away, so he is now no longer
Speaker 1: a married man. When he arrives in Venezuela, it's not
Speaker 1: long after an earthquake has destroyed a lot of the city.
Speaker 1: This is in April of eighteen twelve. Some of the
Speaker 1: country was under control of advancing royalist armies. The revolutionary
Speaker 1: government was starting to collapse on itself and break into
Speaker 1: different factions. McGregor didn't want to talk about his titles
Speaker 1: in his European life. He wanted to seem pretty legit
Speaker 1: to the Republicans, so he kept calling himself Sir Gregor,
Speaker 1: and then he started claiming he was a Knight of
Speaker 1: the Portuguese Order of Christ, and then he offered his
Speaker 1: services to Venezuelan revolutionaries. The first one he offered his
Speaker 1: service to was a guy named Francisco de Miranda, and
Speaker 1: Francisco ended up being a pretty good person for MacGregor
Speaker 1: to know. We'll see throughout this that McGregor uses people
Speaker 1: and throws them away. He had promoted McGregor eventually to
Speaker 1: brigadier general in eighteen.
Speaker 4: Twelve, but he also this guy Miranda was really fascinated
Speaker 4: by the idea of kind of having a new Incan
Speaker 4: empire in South America, like where the streets would be
Speaker 4: paved with gold and the trees would be overflowing with
Speaker 4: ripe fruit and it would be just this like kind
Speaker 4: of Shangri La or Eden type paradise, right, And this
Speaker 4: was a notion that I think he started implanting in
Speaker 4: McGregor's head that will kind of come out in this
Speaker 4: story very very soon.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, good call, good call. So eventually things go
Speaker 1: wrong for Francisco de Miranda, who apparently had also just
Speaker 1: a side note here, been knocking boots with Catherine the Great?
Speaker 4: Did you see that just occasionally?
Speaker 1: I think just occasionally. They didn't want to put a
Speaker 1: label on it, you know what I mean, very forward thinking,
Speaker 1: It was complicated. It was a time of revolution. So unfortunately,
Speaker 1: Francisco da Moranda had been captured by Spanish forces and
Speaker 1: he had been shipped off to prison, where he spent
Speaker 1: four years chained to a wall. McGregor. However, despite losing
Speaker 1: his patron at this point or his main connection with
Speaker 1: the military structure, he continues on his journey and he
Speaker 1: makes a name for himself. People say, hey, have you
Speaker 1: guys seen how brave that guy is? Have you seen
Speaker 1: what a great leader he is? Or more likely, I
Speaker 1: held my hand in front of the mic like I'm whispering.
Speaker 1: I want I want everyone to know that I did that.
Speaker 1: Even though you can't see, he's still doing it. I'm
Speaker 1: still doing it, still doing I'm feeling feeling this monol
Speaker 1: because yeah, they said he's courageous, and they said he
Speaker 1: was a great leader, and.
Speaker 4: Look at those chops.
Speaker 1: Look at those beautiful, gorgeous mutton chops, right, Or did
Speaker 1: he just make up stories wherein he looked courageous and
Speaker 1: looked like a good leader. Yeah, but that's the thing though,
Speaker 1: in and around this time, and then it'll become even
Speaker 1: more apparent once our boy kind of makes the trip
Speaker 1: back to his home country.
Speaker 4: In London, things were not so good. People wanted heroes.
Speaker 4: They wanted to believe these kinds of stories. They wanted
Speaker 4: to look up to someone like this guy and be
Speaker 4: able to say, hey, look at that shining example of
Speaker 4: a man with those delightful mutton chops. I want to
Speaker 4: follow that guy.
Speaker 1: That's really good context to put on this. And I
Speaker 1: think you're absolutely correct. People need a hero, right, And
Speaker 1: whether he is a real hero or not, it's debatable.
Speaker 1: We'll leave that decision to you, folks, regardless. He rose
Speaker 1: from the position of staff colonel to the general of
Speaker 1: division in the Army of Venezuela and New Grenada when
Speaker 1: he was only thirty years old and he was kicking
Speaker 1: keisters and taking names. He fought in a ton of
Speaker 1: battles and still leagued up with this Venezuelan revolutionary right right,
Speaker 1: and he became known for these epic campaigns and his
Speaker 1: role in these pivotal, decisive battles attracts national attention. And
Speaker 1: Simon Boulevar, who we mentioned just a second ago, also
Speaker 1: comes in person to award McGregor these various accolades for
Speaker 1: his actions of wartime.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like serious accolades. He was awarded the insignia of
Speaker 4: the Order of the Libertatores, which was the name of
Speaker 4: the militaristic group that Boulevar headed up. And McGregor was
Speaker 4: more than ready and willing to capitalize on these acts galades,
Speaker 4: you know, in order to earn some serious coin.
Speaker 1: Yes. Yeah, he got married again to a relative of
Speaker 1: the Supreme Commander Boulevar, and he also found that peace
Speaker 1: was sort of a letdown to him, you know.
Speaker 4: Yeah, No, I mean not only that, it's just like
Speaker 4: in peace, there's there's no money to be made.
Speaker 1: And that's what he was after, where's the next grift?
Speaker 4: Yeah, exactly, I mean, because I don't know, it's weird
Speaker 4: he's up to now he does. He certainly is part
Speaker 4: of some conflicts that make him seem like you could
Speaker 4: view him as some kind of like military genius or
Speaker 4: you know, some kind of like war hero. But it
Speaker 4: does feel like he was rising in the ranks all
Speaker 4: the while, sometimes using payoffs and sometimes you know, throwing
Speaker 4: people under the bus and using people for their influence.
Speaker 4: But it all seemed pretty self serving. But I don't know,
Speaker 4: maybe that's just politics.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, maybe it is. Because he continued fighting his
Speaker 1: own kind of private war. And so after his time
Speaker 1: in Venezuela, where he finds peace, anti climactic and let's
Speaker 1: be honest, not all that profitable, he leads a series
Speaker 1: of independent military campaigns in the Caribbean, and History dot
Speaker 1: Com has a great has a great article on this
Speaker 1: by Evan Andrews. But I won't want to read the
Speaker 1: title yet because you don't want to spoil the story.
Speaker 1: He did something pretty interesting. He just arbitrarily would promote
Speaker 1: the people who worked for him, the different freebooters that
Speaker 1: he was hiring and mercenaries. I'm like, oh, I like
Speaker 1: the cut of your jib. You're a lieutenant.
Speaker 4: Now I'm my crew, right.
Speaker 1: And his big tent campaign in this period of his
Speaker 1: life was the brief capture of Florida's Amelia Island from
Speaker 1: the Spanish. He also was not the most impressive military commander.
Speaker 1: At least by this point he was known to immediately
Speaker 1: desert his army.
Speaker 4: There you go, here's some chinks in the armor, Ben
Speaker 4: give it. He was because he cultivated his image of
Speaker 4: himself and then clearly that was more important than actually being,
Speaker 4: you know, a good guy or an effective leader.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, that's that's the truth. That's what we were
Speaker 1: alluding to earlier when we talked about his courage and
Speaker 1: his leadership. It turns out that he as long as
Speaker 1: everything was going fine for his army, he was completely
Speaker 1: on board and one hundred percent down for the cause. However,
Speaker 1: if things appeared to go south, sideways or pear shaped,
Speaker 1: as they say in the UK, he would ghost. But
Speaker 1: he still kept his knack for self promotion and deception.
Speaker 1: So the accounts he would tell of various military conflicts
Speaker 1: differed from the accounts everybody else would tell, and he
Speaker 1: became known, at least in this area of the world.
Speaker 1: It's very important detail as a bit of a blustering braggart,
Speaker 1: but still a charmer, just very self aggrandizing and a
Speaker 1: guy who thought he was the smartest person in the
Speaker 1: room and was convinced that he could sell anyone on anything.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and as we're gonna find out, he kind of could.
Speaker 1: Yes, should we just jump there?
Speaker 4: Oh, we definitely, we can jump there. In the form
Speaker 4: of a slight lead up in that he kind of
Speaker 4: waged what the History of Today article various two he
Speaker 4: describes as a private war where he included in that
Speaker 4: was that capture of that fortress that you mentioned. But
Speaker 4: most importantly him and his associates, the band of Brigands.
Speaker 4: I guess that he's sort of amassed landed on the
Speaker 4: mainland of Nicaragua, where there is a stretch of coast
Speaker 4: region called the Mosquito.
Speaker 1: Coast, Yes, also known as the Mosquito Kingdom.
Speaker 4: M hmm.
Speaker 1: Yeah, this is an important part here. Nowadays it's the
Speaker 1: eastern coast of Nicaragua and Honduras. Just a little bit
Speaker 1: of southern Honduras shares this area, but the Mosquito Coast
Speaker 1: was generally thought of as the domain of the Mosquito
Speaker 1: or Mosquito Kingdom, and they had an interesting tension in
Speaker 1: this area between the British, the US and the countries
Speaker 1: of Nicaragua and Honduras.
Speaker 4: Well, not to mention the Native America, the Native people,
Speaker 4: the Mosquito Indians, right, yeah, And.
Speaker 1: We had a strange situation here because the Mosquito people
Speaker 1: had their own rulers or kings, and they had a
Speaker 1: specific name, right.
Speaker 4: Yeah, that's right, man.
Speaker 1: They had some thing of a king who was called
Speaker 1: the Cacique series of kings, Yes, series of kings.
Speaker 4: This is the Cacique king of the Mosquito Indians. And
Speaker 4: this individual made a bit of a devil's bargain with
Speaker 4: our boy McGregor.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And so for context, the Cacique, the kings of
Speaker 1: this area of the Mosquito people, allowed foreigners to settle
Speaker 1: in their lands so long as their overall sovereignty was respected.
Speaker 1: And a lot of British merchants and Garifuno people from
Speaker 1: Honduras took advantage of this. And one of these kings,
Speaker 1: one of these Caziques, makes a deal with Gregor McGregor.
Speaker 1: For I believe it was thirty thirty miles of land, that's.
Speaker 4: Right, and it was on what's known as the Poias Shore.
Speaker 4: And so with that land grant that sureley was on
Speaker 4: the up and up this deal. Right, Surely, all the
Speaker 4: teas were crossed and the eyes were dotted.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I'm convinced.
Speaker 4: Uh huh. Yeah. So, with this deal having been made,
Speaker 4: McGregor makes his way back to England, to London in particular,
Speaker 4: making some pretty outrageous claims.
Speaker 1: Right yeah. So after he makes this deal in eighteen twenty,
Speaker 1: he becomes a whole new Gregor McGregor. He is the
Speaker 1: Prince of Poios. He's named his newfound dominion Poios. And
Speaker 1: boy is Poios a great place. This is where we
Speaker 1: see the inspiration he received from Miranda's vision of a
Speaker 1: new Incland Empire. Popping back up again, he described this
Speaker 1: place in very hyperbolic, fascinating, almost too good to be
Speaker 1: truish terms.
Speaker 4: Yeah, like stuff like flowing with milk and honey, you know,
Speaker 4: fruit trees spilling with delicious ripe fruit, water so pure
Speaker 4: that it would quench any thirst. I think was one
Speaker 4: of them right then.
Speaker 1: And he claimed he was the Kazique or the king
Speaker 1: slash prince of this area, and that this was an
Speaker 1: obscure but prosperous nation, and not only was it a
Speaker 1: hidden gem across the sea, but it was an act
Speaker 1: now situation because you see, Londoners, you too can be
Speaker 1: part of the dream. The Kazique of Poias has come
Speaker 1: on a mission to solicit investments and to recruit potential settlers.
Speaker 4: Right. And there's a super cool exitt from a book
Speaker 4: by Maria Khanikhova that is on the BBC that talks
Speaker 4: about some of the psychological principles of persuasion that Conman used,
Speaker 4: in particular that Gregor McGregor used. Do you want to
Speaker 4: talk through some of those.
Speaker 1: Sure, let's round robin it. There are six. The first
Speaker 1: is reciprocity.
Speaker 4: Reciprocity I'll scratch your back, you scratch mine, coming from McGregor.
Speaker 1: Hey, I'm giving you this chance of a lifetime. All
Speaker 1: you got to do for me is give me all
Speaker 1: your money. And then consistency of behavior, meaning that whether
Speaker 1: it is true or a lie, I am going to
Speaker 1: believe the same thing I did.
Speaker 4: Yesterday, right exactly. Then we have social validation, which is
Speaker 4: super important because it's basically like, if I'm saying to you, Ben, Ben,
Speaker 4: you gotta do this. It's gonna make you a real,
Speaker 4: real true scotsman, a real true man's man, a Robinson
Speaker 4: Caruso type, you know, going out and taming the wilds.
Speaker 4: And at the same time it's gonna be awesome, so
Speaker 4: don't worry about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there's there's a clever thing there too, because
Speaker 1: the social validation there is I have specifically chosen you
Speaker 1: to be part of this.
Speaker 4: Yes, for your merits that are just on display, Ben,
Speaker 4: I want you to be part of my new utopia.
Speaker 1: Also, this is just between us. I like you as
Speaker 1: a person. That's number four. You know we're we're friends,
Speaker 1: we're buddies, we're pals. You know you're you're pal with
Speaker 1: the Kozique of Poia.
Speaker 4: How cool is that? And here's a really important one.
Speaker 4: And you see it's funny you see a mix of
Speaker 4: these being used in everything from like offers on Facebook
Speaker 4: and things to like ticket sales. You notice how every
Speaker 4: time you see an ad for like concert tickets, they
Speaker 4: always say really going quick, acting quick, get them now.
Speaker 1: You gotta get them while they're hot, because there's just
Speaker 1: not enough to go around me.
Speaker 4: Because it's just such an amazing opportunity. And if you
Speaker 4: don't do it, somebody else will, so you better hop
Speaker 4: on it. And then finally, what do we have?
Speaker 1: Yes, finally authority. I know what I am talking about, oh,
Speaker 1: says the grifter.
Speaker 4: And not only that, this is my favorite part of
Speaker 4: this whole story. Actually, McGregor actually wrote a book, yes,
Speaker 4: under an assumed name, called Sketch of the Mosquito Shore,
Speaker 4: including the Territory of Poios. And it was written by
Speaker 4: a man by the name of Thomas strange Ways. Thomas Strangeways,
Speaker 4: Captain Thomas Strangers.
Speaker 1: Yes, pardon me, Captain Thomas.
Speaker 4: Exactly, but yeah, I mean everything all signs point to
Speaker 4: this was in fact McGregor. So he was like laying
Speaker 4: the groundwork for this grift. This is a long con man.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and people did not have the same I guess,
Speaker 1: I don't want to say wherewithal, but they didn't have
Speaker 1: the same resources access to that we have today to
Speaker 1: verify information. So Thomas strange Ways, oh, excuse me again,
Speaker 1: Captain Thomas strange Ways just had a really interesting name,
Speaker 1: sounded like a great well traveled adventurer, and in very
Speaker 1: idyllic bucolic terms described this hitherto unknown nation of Poya.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and he described it just as we described it,
Speaker 4: just as McGregor described it as this place, oh gold
Speaker 4: just overflowing from the river everywhere, just everywhere, lousy with gold.
Speaker 4: And here's the thing with that authority point of persuasion.
Speaker 4: This makes it even better because he's saying, don't take
Speaker 4: my word for it. Check out this guy, Captain. Strange ways,
Speaker 4: he's been there. He wrote a book about it. Who
Speaker 4: would write a book about it if it wasn't true.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I was quite delighted to find that my tiny,
Speaker 1: beautiful nation was the subject of a book. You seem
Speaker 1: well read. You've surely heard of the sketches right here.
Speaker 1: Here's a little little stud a little exhibit from the.
Speaker 4: Preface Mosquito Shaw, including the territory of Poios, being impressed
Speaker 4: with a thorough conviction of the immense benefit which not
Speaker 4: only the native tribes of Mosquitia, but the neighboring countries
Speaker 4: in general, must derive from the civilization and improvement of
Speaker 4: one of the fairest portions of the globe. Has endeavored
Speaker 4: in the following sheets to attract the attention of enlightened
Speaker 4: Europeans to the subject, by combining the knowledge of its history,
Speaker 4: natural productions, the best mode of culture, and et cetera,
Speaker 4: which he acquired during a portion of his life spent
Speaker 4: in that part of the world.
Speaker 1: This is was that your Matt Berry, I don't know
Speaker 1: kind of it was it was. It was yeah, yes, no.
Speaker 4: But so this is this is so met up because
Speaker 4: this is McGregor, right, writing a preface like you know
Speaker 4: himself for Strange four Strange Ways, who is also himself.
Speaker 1: And it's it's long preference. We know that sounded like
Speaker 1: a long thing. But that's just an excerpt.
Speaker 4: It's just an exerpt. But the point is is from
Speaker 4: the start it reads like a treatise for how awesome
Speaker 4: this place is.
Speaker 1: It's like like a timeshare pamphlet or an infomercial that
Speaker 1: purports to be a documentary. Right, And at this time
Speaker 1: now the he's reinvented himself as the Khysique, as his
Speaker 1: Highness Gregor. He is a fixture in London's high society.
Speaker 1: Wealthy aristocrats set him and his wife up in a
Speaker 1: country home. The Lord Mayor holds a banquet in his
Speaker 1: honor and people start to trust him because he's charming,
Speaker 1: and he cites all his past military achievements and you
Speaker 1: know what, I've got to stop just for a second.
Speaker 1: Strange Ways is just such a terrible, terrible name. It's
Speaker 1: like Timmy mcreal name.
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, Gregor McGregor's not great either. Yeah, but
Speaker 4: it's real. Yeah, but that's the real one. That's just
Speaker 4: so weird. I'm not making fun of Scottish names. I
Speaker 4: just think any name where like the first name and
Speaker 4: the last name are the same inherently absurd sounding to me.
Speaker 4: But that's just my opinion.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, there's you know, Humbert, Humbert all that sort
Speaker 1: of stuff exactly. But even though he's Gregor McGregor, excuse me,
Speaker 1: his highness the Khasique Gregor, he is really and genuinely
Speaker 1: winning people over because he doesn't just come with great stories.
Speaker 1: He doesn't just come with a book that he didn't write.
Speaker 1: He also, you see, has tons and tons of official documents,
Speaker 1: all kinds of paperwork. He has a handwritten lands grant
Speaker 1: from the Mosquito King, which is a great band name.
Speaker 1: He has a national flag. He has charts and maps
Speaker 1: showing the location and border of Poios.
Speaker 4: I think he even had some currency from the Bank
Speaker 4: of Poios.
Speaker 1: Yes, he has currency. I think they call it what
Speaker 1: one hard note.
Speaker 4: Oh, and it says at the bottom, by order of
Speaker 4: His Highness Gregor Kazik of Poios. Yes.
Speaker 1: And the problem with all this one hard dollar one
Speaker 1: hard dollar, which is a weird phrase little bit. Yeah,
Speaker 1: but the problem with all of this documentation is that
Speaker 1: almost all of it is entirely fabricated by him. He
Speaker 1: has he has made up these dollars. And remember that
Speaker 1: crazy fraudulent music festival called Firefest that happened last year
Speaker 1: with the jaw rule, I think I think that's right.
Speaker 4: But basically what it was was the total bait and
Speaker 4: switch where they were selling these premium packages to you know,
Speaker 4: rabid bougie concert goers to go to this like private
Speaker 4: island where this concert was going to be held, and
Speaker 4: everyone showed up and they're suppose they were expecting all
Speaker 4: these crazy accommodations and like nothing, there was nothing. It
Speaker 4: was just trash. It was these like crappy tents. There
Speaker 4: was just like you know, no sand, no wood, just
Speaker 4: just totally filthy and absolute, you know, just complete grift.
Speaker 4: That's what the the handful of hapless settlers who abandoned
Speaker 4: their homes for a better life under the benevolent you know,
Speaker 4: hand of the Kazique of Poyas, that's what they found.
Speaker 1: Well, yeah, it sounds crazy, but let's let's step back
Speaker 1: a little and see how it happened. Because he floats
Speaker 1: a two hundred thousand pounds sterling Poya's bond in the
Speaker 1: London money market, and then he also starts selling land
Speaker 1: and titles. Two would be caughtists and you could get
Speaker 1: a pretty good deal. For just eleven pounds, you could
Speaker 1: purchase one hundred acres of Poya farmland, and if you
Speaker 1: were a little more well to do, you could buy
Speaker 1: a post as an officer in the military, the same
Speaker 1: way the Kazique became.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah, well, you know, paying forward, paying.
Speaker 1: Forward, you know, in the sleaziest way possible.
Speaker 4: And how crazy that the value of those bonds you
Speaker 4: mentioned just ballooned over time.
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, And in September of eighteen twenty two, a
Speaker 1: ship called the Honduras Packet set sail from London with
Speaker 1: as as you said, a handful of people bound for Poya,
Speaker 1: probably with their land deeds clutched in their hands. And
Speaker 1: that first ship only took about what several dozen people.
Speaker 4: Yeah, and there's a second one called the Kinnersley Castle,
Speaker 4: and I believe bewe even the two there was two
Speaker 4: hundred and fifty folks in total, and they were just
Speaker 4: expecting paradise, you know, as as well they should have given,
Speaker 4: you know, the salesmanship of our guy McGregor.
Speaker 1: Yeah. So these people who are called poyers, most of
Speaker 1: them invested their entire life savings in this journey. As
Speaker 1: you said. No, no, they sold their houses. Some had even
Speaker 1: converted all their cash to hard poise dollars. Shaking my head,
Speaker 1: I feel bad for these hapless SAPs. Yeah, it's terrible,
Speaker 1: you know. At the same time, again, though, things were
Speaker 1: not so hot in the in the world at large,
Speaker 1: and certainly the kind of people that maybe would look
Speaker 1: at this as an opportunity to start again. You know,
Speaker 1: Scotland is pretty bleak, No, the weather's not great. It
Speaker 1: felt like maybe to some this was a way to
Speaker 1: break out of their kind of typical humdrum routine and
Speaker 1: start a new life for what seemed like a too
Speaker 1: good to pass up deal, which is an another part
Speaker 1: of manipulative techniques of grifters is the idea there's two notions.
Speaker 1: One is you're spurring somebody towards making a decision that
Speaker 1: you want them to make right and also making sure
Speaker 1: that the decision seems like something that they would be too.
Speaker 1: It would be a fool to reject this offer because
Speaker 1: it's just like a no brainer, right. Yeah, And it's
Speaker 1: also very helpful. You know you've done well when they
Speaker 1: feel as though it is their own idea. Hey, Cazique,
Speaker 1: you and I are friends, right, you know what, poya
Speaker 1: sounds so good that I would like to go. Napoleon
Speaker 1: has just been defeated. The British economy is expanding, and
Speaker 1: you know, I'm in a good mood. I think it's
Speaker 1: a it's a time to make a change, right. And
Speaker 1: this works very well for the Cazique at first. But
Speaker 1: for these poor investors, the poya they were promised is
Speaker 1: not the poya they find when they land.
Speaker 4: Now, is that firefest situation? Yeah?
Speaker 1: Exactly. They see no farmland. They see mile after mile
Speaker 1: of dense, nigh impenetrable jungle, and they are wondering, you know,
Speaker 1: where is all the crystal clear water. Where is all
Speaker 1: the abundant, rich soil we will promised? Where the heck
Speaker 1: is this civilization you told us about.
Speaker 4: I here's a fantastic exert from an account of the
Speaker 4: time that was reprinted in The Guardian recently.
Speaker 1: Yeah. This from the Guardian archive was in print the
Speaker 1: twenty fifth of October eighteen twenty three by the time
Speaker 1: that a couple of settlers had made it back.
Speaker 4: So here it goes. When the immigrants arrived at San Joseph,
Speaker 4: nothing could exceed their anguish on finding where they expected
Speaker 4: a fine flourishing town with nearly two thousand inhabitants only
Speaker 4: two or three ruined huts. The party exerted themselves vigorously
Speaker 4: clearing away some stunted mahogany trees from about six hundred
Speaker 4: yards of sandy ground and erecting a number of little
Speaker 4: huts and tents with blankets to protect them from the weather.
Speaker 4: Nearly all of their provisions, however, had been wet and landing,
Speaker 4: as they had been compelled to roll all their barrels
Speaker 4: for a considerable distance through salt water. The sun in
Speaker 4: the daytime was intolerably hot, and the nights were cold
Speaker 4: with heavy rain. So what ended up happening was a
Speaker 4: lot of people died. They got very sickened because the
Speaker 4: water was not that pure, clean drinking water that was described.
Speaker 1: It was brackish and contaminated with animal waste as well.
Speaker 1: So in a very short amount of time, I think
Speaker 1: twenty people died and everyone who didn't die got sick,
Speaker 1: And along comes the real Cazique, the king of the
Speaker 1: Mosquito Indians. He visits them to see what's going on.
Speaker 4: Yeah, who the heck are you guys?
Speaker 1: Right? And we have an excerpt that explains this situation
Speaker 1: pretty well. Try to imagine the king's utter bafflement here.
Speaker 1: He afterwards sen a letter stating that he made a
Speaker 1: grant of thirty miles of land on the Poiish Shore
Speaker 1: to Sir Gregor MacGregor three years ago, but that quote
Speaker 1: unquote Sir Gregor, having until that time neglected to take possession,
Speaker 1: he considered the grant as void, and that had he
Speaker 1: then known Sir Gregor as he did now, he would
Speaker 1: never have made the grant. He would oppose the settlement
Speaker 1: of anyone belonging to Sir Gregor within his territory, and
Speaker 1: prescribed as the condition of their remaining in peace, that
Speaker 1: they should abjure Sir Gregor and swear allegiance to him.
Speaker 4: So, in other words, he became aware of what a
Speaker 4: bastard Gregor was.
Speaker 1: Yeah, utter bastard. And so at this stage he also
Speaker 1: threatens some of these settlers. He says, and we'll paraphrase here,
Speaker 1: that he could call up seven thousand natives and cut
Speaker 1: off the entire settler community at one blow. But by
Speaker 1: this point, and by their own emission, the settlers felt
Speaker 1: themselves past fear death was killing everybody off, just as
Speaker 1: surely as the mosquito king was threatening to do.
Speaker 4: Bad times. Man, there's a really sad little account of
Speaker 4: a man who was a shoemaker who was declared to
Speaker 4: be the official shoemaker of the Princess of Poya, whoever
Speaker 4: that was. Yeah, and he apparently got so sick that
Speaker 4: he took his own life by shooting himself while laying
Speaker 4: dying in a hammock.
Speaker 1: Yep, and six men tried to get to Honduras in
Speaker 1: a canoe. They ended up being castaways, but they were
Speaker 1: rescued by a guy named mister Bennett, who was a
Speaker 1: Mahogany merchant and an overall stand up dude. He learned
Speaker 1: of what was.
Speaker 4: Happening, Thank God for mister Bennett.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he sent a ship to take as many
Speaker 1: settlers as he could to a hospital in Honduras and
Speaker 1: to fetch the rest of them on the second trip. However,
Speaker 1: at this point the situation is still fraught with danger
Speaker 1: because we mentioned Hondura's package right that's the first ship
Speaker 1: with about fifty people. We mentioned Kennersley Castle. That's the
Speaker 1: second ship with about two hundred people. There were two
Speaker 1: other ships on the way. There was the Albion, which
Speaker 1: was the third vessel to bring settlers. It was diverted
Speaker 1: to Belize after they discovered that the previous settlers had abandoned.
Speaker 4: This is so Firefest, dude, This is like, I mean,
Speaker 4: this is literally what happened with Firefest. People got trapped
Speaker 4: on the island. Yeah, they couldn't fly out a much
Speaker 4: bougier version of this, But I wonder if if joh Ruler,
Speaker 4: whoever the hell was responsible for that, looked at this
Speaker 4: story as like an inspiration.
Speaker 1: Yeah. And the other ship the scheme was sent bringing
Speaker 1: arms and supplies also diverted to Belize. And there also
Speaker 1: reports that five other vessels were on the way. But
Speaker 1: in a massive stroke of luck for these vessels, word
Speaker 1: reached Britain that Poya was entirely made up by that time,
Speaker 1: so the British Royal Navy intercepted these other five ships
Speaker 1: and turned them back. And again this all happened because
Speaker 1: there was such a scarcity of information and it took
Speaker 1: forever to contact people, especially over those long distances. All
Speaker 1: in all, McGregor's swindle here raised two hundred thousand pounds.
Speaker 1: But Noel, what happened when people found out about this.
Speaker 4: Well, they were justifiably enraged and they were thirsty for
Speaker 4: McGregor's blood. But by this point he had already high
Speaker 4: tailed it out of the country and posted up in France.
Speaker 4: Or I think he ran a a a few years
Speaker 4: more of other scams on the hapless Parisians. And by
Speaker 4: the way, if we're going to inflation calculator, that amount
Speaker 4: of money that he raised, it's it would be in
Speaker 4: the billions of dollars.
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, if we count France. There's a great article
Speaker 1: from the economists called The King of Conmen that that
Speaker 1: does the math for us here. Over his lifetime, those
Speaker 1: bond market frauds in the in England and in France
Speaker 1: run to the tune of one point three million And
Speaker 1: in today's terms, how much is that coac.
Speaker 4: That would be three point six a billion pounds, So
Speaker 4: that it's crazy and yeah, and so a big part
Speaker 4: of this, I guess once he got to Paris too.
Speaker 4: I mean, I don't know, it must have been part
Speaker 4: of it for from the start. But this idea of
Speaker 4: these gold mines, you know, selling these parcels of land
Speaker 4: with the promise of these imaginary gold mines, that people
Speaker 4: would just be able to dislike, stick their hands in
Speaker 4: the water and just get get gold.
Speaker 1: Right, lousy with gold, blowsy with gold.
Speaker 4: But for whatever reason in this History Today article they
Speaker 4: conjecture that maybe Paris was a little too too hot
Speaker 4: for McGregor and his crew. They came back to London
Speaker 4: and thank god has little come up in s here.
Speaker 4: They were arrested on site and imprisoned in a prison
Speaker 4: called the Top Hill Fields.
Speaker 1: Yeah. We should note though that when he was in
Speaker 1: France he was doing the exact same scheme. He didn't
Speaker 1: even change the name of the country. I think that's
Speaker 1: part of why he was so quickly caught, you know.
Speaker 4: And I think I may have spoke too soon, Ben
Speaker 4: that come up and was maybe just the humiliation of
Speaker 4: being arrested. But as slippery as snake as this dude was,
Speaker 4: he was able to wriggle his way even out of
Speaker 4: this one.
Speaker 1: Yes, that is true. He was in tott Hillfield's bridewell
Speaker 1: for about a week before he was released without a charge.
Speaker 1: And then immediately he starts a newer version of the
Speaker 1: Poya scheme, and this time he calls himself Kazik of
Speaker 1: the Republic of Poyas. He sets up a new office
Speaker 1: and doesn't claim any of the diplomatic status that he
Speaker 1: had done with the other office, and he starts acting
Speaker 1: through proxies. He gets another company to act as brokers.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so he basically smartened up his grift a little bit, right,
Speaker 4: and then separated himself from it someway.
Speaker 1: Right, and he started selling other versions of this. By
Speaker 1: the time it hit eighteen twenty eight, he was selling
Speaker 1: certificates entitling holders to land in Poyas proper at five
Speaker 1: shillings per acre. Yeah. He goes on publishing these various
Speaker 1: documents papers power at this time.
Speaker 4: Oh yeah, so he he published if it's printed, yeah,
Speaker 4: it must be true.
Speaker 1: Right, why would you go to the trouble? He publishes
Speaker 1: a constitution for a smaller republic headed by himself as president.
Speaker 1: He eventually, despite all his efforts, has a bit of
Speaker 1: a come to Jesus moment, as they would call it
Speaker 1: in the American South, and he understands that the Poya
Speaker 1: Grift has finally done it. Everybody knows, yes, every course
Speaker 1: is dead.
Speaker 4: Yeah, because he's burned through all his money. At this point,
Speaker 4: he's got no friends left to speak of, and so
Speaker 4: he goes back to the last place where he felt beloved,
Speaker 4: which was old Venezuela, where he still had some connects.
Speaker 4: He didn't screw anybody over there, exactly right, that I
Speaker 4: can think of. So he went back and actually petitioned
Speaker 4: the government to give him citizenship and restore his military rank.
Speaker 4: So he ended his life living in Venezuela as a
Speaker 4: general and got a government pension.
Speaker 1: Yeah, back pay as well and pension. And that's primarily
Speaker 1: because the Defense Minister had served a longside McGregor in
Speaker 1: an expedition in eighteen sixteen and said, you know what,
Speaker 1: this guy is a war hero. And this worked. The
Speaker 1: part of today's Honduras that was called Poya remains undeveloped today.
Speaker 1: There are no villages, no abundant farmland, no gold mines
Speaker 1: that anyone knows about. But McGregor himself, Old Gregor MacGregor
Speaker 1: passed away a freeman on December fourth, eighteen forty five.
Speaker 1: One of the greatest grifters ever lived, just an utter sleeve.
Speaker 4: Back you gotta admire the stones on this guy though, Man,
Speaker 4: I mean, good lord, just to keep it rolling like
Speaker 4: this for so long.
Speaker 1: Yeah, but hopefully a lesson to be learned. And we
Speaker 1: hope that you enjoyed this episode as well. Thanks so
Speaker 1: much forgiving us listen. Enjoyed.
Speaker 4: That's it. It's nothing. It's another one of these where yes,
Speaker 4: it's ridiculous, but god, this guy puts some people through
Speaker 4: the ringer, but I enjoyed learning about it.
Speaker 1: Yeah, well, tell us what you think and.
Speaker 4: Really annoying.
Speaker 3: It's a gentleman.
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland, the.
Speaker 4: Quizt Speaking of time, it's been a nice little stretch
Speaker 4: of time since we've had since you've darkened our studio.
Speaker 1: Door operative word being a nice stretch.
Speaker 3: You know. I heard so many complaints about my absence
Speaker 3: that I could not allow it to continue one breath longer.
Speaker 3: And so the most cringe worthy segmented all the podcasting has.
Speaker 4: I'm certainly cringing.
Speaker 1: You're also on a T shirt. It has gone too far.
Speaker 3: It's a top seller. So this is this is.
Speaker 1: Our non consensually recurring segment wherein you the Quiztor, also
Speaker 1: known as Jonathan Strickland.
Speaker 4: Just kind of materializes.
Speaker 1: Ye want, right when we think we're going to end
Speaker 1: the show to test our knowledge of historical fact and fiction?
Speaker 1: How does this work?
Speaker 3: I present to you a scenario, and I give you
Speaker 3: three minutes to determine whether said scenario in fact represents
Speaker 3: fact or I made it up seas and I could
Speaker 3: have made up a significant fact within the story and
Speaker 3: the rest of it be mostly true and it's still fakesies.
Speaker 3: Oh wow, So you asked me this every time, so
Speaker 3: I thought I was just get in front of it this. Yeah,
Speaker 3: because it's like you forget how this game works every
Speaker 3: time I come in here.
Speaker 4: So it's not for our benefit, man, it's for the
Speaker 4: new listeners. You just hear this weirdo popping up out
Speaker 4: of nowhere, and they want to know what gets I'm just.
Speaker 3: Just making sure because every time Ben says it, it's
Speaker 3: like he legitimately doesn't remember.
Speaker 1: Yeah, I've got it.
Speaker 3: I'm a little concerned.
Speaker 1: I've got a pretty good acting range or some emergent
Speaker 1: issues and like the Memento guy, So if it's either
Speaker 1: all true or it's fake.
Speaker 3: So I give you the scenario and then I come
Speaker 3: up with some sort of arbitrary rule for you to
Speaker 3: follow if you want to ask me a question, which
Speaker 3: I now realize I did not think about before I
Speaker 3: came in here today. So we're going to say, if
Speaker 3: you wish to ask a question, once the time has started,
Speaker 3: you will preface that question with allen Z.
Speaker 1: Allen Z.
Speaker 3: You'll understand why. In a moment. I will now read
Speaker 3: to you scenario, and then at the conclusion we will
Speaker 3: start the clock. All right, here we are on August
Speaker 3: twenty first, nineteen eleven, one of the greatest art heists
Speaker 3: in history took place. A man who styled himself the
Speaker 3: Marquis Eduardo de Valfierno calmly walked into the Louver in Paris, France.
Speaker 3: He waited until no one was paying attention. He lifted
Speaker 3: Leonardo da Vinci's Mona Lisa off the wall, slid it
Speaker 3: under his coat, and calmly walked out of the building.
Speaker 3: He had already sold the Mona Lisa to an interested buyer. Actually,
Speaker 3: he had sold it to six different interested buyers, because
Speaker 3: he had no intention of partying with the real painting
Speaker 3: you see, but rather had six forgeries made. It was
Speaker 3: the perfect crime. The people purchasing the stolen painting would
Speaker 3: surely not say anything about it, and they'd have no
Speaker 3: way of knowing about each other. An accomplice named Vincenzo
Speaker 3: Perugia was caught supposedly with one of the forgeries. According
Speaker 3: to this Marquis, Perugia would be tried for the theft
Speaker 3: and sentenced to serve out the jail sentence. The copy
Speaker 3: the forgery, according to Valfierno, would go to the louver
Speaker 3: where it hangs still. Valfierno told his story to journalist
Speaker 3: Carl Decker of The Saturday Evening Post years later. The
Speaker 3: whereabouts of the original Mona Lisa, according to Valfierno, are
Speaker 3: still unknown begin the time.
Speaker 1: Okay, first off, there's a lot of according to going
Speaker 1: on in here, so that guy could be lying, but
Speaker 1: the story about the lie could be true.
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's a good point, Ben, I don't know. You
Speaker 4: think it's just to throw us off.
Speaker 1: I don't know. In the past, the longer ones have
Speaker 1: been false. But I messed up on that point because
Speaker 1: I mentioned it in front of Jonathan Strickland aka the Quiztry.
Speaker 4: And he made a face.
Speaker 1: Yeah, he mad, I'll remember that phase all on zi.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yes, messieur bullet.
Speaker 1: Does does anybody else corroborate this story told to the
Speaker 1: journalist or is it just the one guy?
Speaker 4: Oh?
Speaker 3: No, there have been several corroborations.
Speaker 1: Okay, several credible corroborations.
Speaker 3: Are you asking me to levy judgment upon those who
Speaker 3: corroborate this story?
Speaker 4: That does seem like a stretch band to.
Speaker 3: Answer to answer your to answer your question?
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 3: The the one account of this full account of this
Speaker 3: is in a nineteen thirty six Saturday Evening Post article.
Speaker 4: I seem to recall then Peruggio.
Speaker 3: I apologize in nineteen thirty two.
Speaker 4: The names as being an art like a high art
Speaker 4: thief or something like there was a movie or something
Speaker 4: about it. But I'm wondering if there was some detail
Speaker 4: that was incorrect, right, that renders the whole thing?
Speaker 1: ALONSI, what is what is the name of the the thief? Again?
Speaker 3: It would be Marquis Eduardo de Valfiero.
Speaker 4: It was Perugio.
Speaker 3: Perugio was an accomplice, Vincenzo Perugia.
Speaker 4: Okay, that's the name that that that that rings a bell.
Speaker 1: You want to go for true?
Speaker 4: I want to go for true.
Speaker 1: All right, let's lock it in three two one true.
Speaker 3: Oh, I feel so guilty. This one's a tricky one.
Speaker 3: But uh no, it's false. It's actually false. You see,
Speaker 3: you're on You're onto something, Monsieur Boulet. You see, this
Speaker 3: story was in fact told in the Saturday Evening Post
Speaker 3: in nineteen thirty two. But Kyle Decker was an notorious
Speaker 3: fibber oh man, notorious, and there is absolutely no proof
Speaker 3: that this ever exists. None of these supposed six forgeries
Speaker 3: I've ever seen surfaced.
Speaker 1: Uh huh.
Speaker 3: The examination of the Mona Lisa at the Louver has
Speaker 3: shown that it is in fact the original Mona Lisa.
Speaker 3: In nineteen eleven, the Mona Lisa was not even a
Speaker 3: famous painting outside of France. No one knew about it. Yeah,
Speaker 3: but Perugia did steal the Marusia did steal the Mona
Speaker 3: Lisa in nineteen eleven with two Italian accomplices. They spent
Speaker 3: the night in a janitorial broom closet, woke up in
Speaker 3: the next morning, and then well didn't even wake up.
Speaker 3: They stayed awake the whole time, snuck out the next
Speaker 3: morning with the Mona Lisa. Perugia kept it, was afraid
Speaker 3: to try it, even fence it for almost two years.
Speaker 3: Finally get tried to do it in Florence, and the
Speaker 3: art dealer in Florence said, hang on, oh wow, alerted
Speaker 3: the authorities. Perugia was in fact arrested and tried for
Speaker 3: the crime and sent it to jail. You know how
Speaker 3: long a sentence was for stealing the Mona Lisa, one
Speaker 3: of the most famous paintings in all the world.
Speaker 1: Uh, more than a year?
Speaker 3: Eight months, eight months, eight months was all. The Monna
Speaker 3: Lisa was not very famous in nineteen eleven. And also
Speaker 3: there was another event that ended up superseding, eclipsing You
Speaker 3: might say this story, and that little event was the
Speaker 3: Great War right broke out in Europe and that no
Speaker 3: one really cared about an art thief at that point.
Speaker 3: But yes, this so the story was published. Carl Decker
Speaker 3: did write an article that made these claims, saying that
Speaker 3: he had met this Marquis Eduardo Valfierno back in nineteen fourteen.
Speaker 3: But there is no proof that such a man ever existed,
Speaker 3: no proof that any forgeries were ever made, And in fact,
Speaker 3: there are many parts of his story decker story that
Speaker 3: resemble an earlier story that was published in nineteen ten
Speaker 3: about another self styled nobleman, Count Dolby, who was known
Speaker 3: to self forgeries to American millionaires.
Speaker 1: You know what though, Okay, first off, thank you. That
Speaker 1: is an excellent explanation. But I am going to argue
Speaker 1: that this is a draw due to the complicated and
Speaker 1: unexplored territory that this question represents.
Speaker 3: It's funny because I'm the one who's in charge of
Speaker 3: the game I say I want. Besides which you said
Speaker 3: the last time that it was an easy one, so
Speaker 3: now on they're going to be really hard.
Speaker 4: You know it's me. Sorry, guys, you know what. I've
Speaker 4: kind of You've warned me down to the point where
Speaker 4: I just can't even get upset about this anymore. And
Speaker 4: I'm fine with I'm a glutton for punishment. Let's keep
Speaker 4: let's keep this rolling again.
Speaker 3: We'll make it fair. Next time I make one up,
Speaker 3: I will make one up. I will not take some
Speaker 3: other famous fraud and then present it as if it
Speaker 3: were true. Because you may remember, oh I remember hearing
Speaker 3: that story. It's right, I'll be more honest in my
Speaker 3: dis honesty.
Speaker 1: Great, well, you're a clever antagonist, for sure, and this
Speaker 1: would usually be a great casey on the case moment,
Speaker 1: but he will have to accuse himself because he is
Speaker 1: actually friends with all of us and may have a
Speaker 1: difficult time being impartial. However, we do want to thank
Speaker 1: you for coming on the show and helping us in
Speaker 1: our fellow Ridiculous Historians learn a little bit more about art.
Speaker 4: Heist and I hope to share length of this one
Speaker 4: made up for the last two shorties that we put
Speaker 4: out There we go.
Speaker 1: That's a good way to look at it. You are
Speaker 1: nailing these.
Speaker 4: In quality I make up for in quantity.
Speaker 1: So we want to thank everybody. Of course, thank you
Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland aka the Quister. Thanks to Christopher hasiotis our
Speaker 1: researcher associate for today's episode.
Speaker 4: Thanks to super producer Casey Pegram Alex Williams, who composed
Speaker 4: our theme. Jonathan, I can take him our leave. And
Speaker 4: thanks to you Ben, thanks to you big, Thanks to you,
Speaker 4: Thank melc Buku oh Man.
Speaker 3: Is that all z.
Speaker 4: Whatever? And thanks to you folks listening public for for listening.
Speaker 1: Yeah. Find us on Instagram, Facebook, Twitter, you can join
Speaker 1: our community page, which we're big fans of Ridiculous Historians.
Speaker 1: Jonathan drops by there as well on occasion. If you
Speaker 1: want to learn more about Jonathan when he is not
Speaker 1: in his alter ego. You can find him on tech
Speaker 1: Stuff and several other shows. Isn't that correct?
Speaker 3: Tech Stuff is a primary show, and I've got other
Speaker 3: ones coming up soon. And well you're trying to drink
Speaker 3: me bullin, we're still latch neboses.
Speaker 1: Yeah, thank you for the shout out. Oh yeah, of course,
Speaker 1: and that's it, nol. Do you want to go out
Speaker 1: and grift some people, like in a harmless fun way.
Speaker 4: Well, like steal candies from some babies or something.
Speaker 1: Yeah, just some Dennis the Menace type.
Speaker 4: Drifting victimless crimes.
Speaker 1: Yes.
Speaker 4: Sure.
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