WEBVTT - Prosecutors Chose the "Hard Way" in Giuliani Raid 0:00:03.200 --> 0:00:07.960 This is Bloomberg Law with June Brusso from Bloomberg Radio. 0:00:09.320 --> 0:00:12.559 Rudy Giuliani has not been charged with any crime yet, 0:00:12.880 --> 0:00:16.560 but could that be changing soon. Prosecutors in the Manhattan 0:00:16.640 --> 0:00:20.239 U s Attorney's Office that Giuliani once headed have been 0:00:20.280 --> 0:00:23.599 investigating the former New York mayor and personal lawyer to 0:00:23.640 --> 0:00:27.640 former President Donald Trump. That became evident when they rated 0:00:27.680 --> 0:00:30.680 his apartment in the early morning hours two weeks ago. 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:36.320 Joining me is Greg Ferrell, Bloomberg Legal reporter. Rudy Giuliani's 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:40.239 lawyer offered to bring his client in for questioning by 0:00:40.320 --> 0:00:46.600 Manhattan federal prosecutors two months ago. Why didn't that happen? Well, 0:00:46.920 --> 0:00:48.920 it's this actually goes back a year and a half. 0:00:48.960 --> 0:00:53.640 So Ever since Rudy Giuliani's business associates left Parniss and 0:00:53.720 --> 0:00:56.960 Igor Frewman, the two guys who were charged a couple 0:00:57.000 --> 0:01:01.000 of years ago in November late late nineteen with campaign 0:01:01.000 --> 0:01:06.520 finance problems. Um it's been reported that Rudy was also 0:01:06.640 --> 0:01:09.560 like a person of interest in that and since then, 0:01:09.640 --> 0:01:13.400 since November of Bob Costello, his lawyer, has tried to 0:01:13.640 --> 0:01:17.080 uh get Rudy in there under like either a proper 0:01:17.120 --> 0:01:19.640 agreement or just like, is there anything you guys need 0:01:19.720 --> 0:01:22.800 to know from us? And it's been kind of like quiet, 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:27.120 uh no response uh from uh, you know, from well, no, 0:01:27.240 --> 0:01:29.720 I shouldn't put it that way. The response from the 0:01:29.760 --> 0:01:33.320 federal prosecutors in Manhattan has been, I would love to 0:01:33.360 --> 0:01:34.560 have you come in a chat, but we're not going 0:01:34.600 --> 0:01:36.600 to tell you what we want, you know that what 0:01:36.800 --> 0:01:39.679 we're specifically interested in. In other ways, they were treating 0:01:39.760 --> 0:01:43.440 him kind of like he was a suspect um. They 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:46.560 didn't want to give him advanced notice of what they 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:49.760 are interested in, what their investigation encompassed. So this has 0:01:49.760 --> 0:01:52.360 been kind of a like a little bit of a 0:01:53.120 --> 0:01:57.120 you know, a dance between Rudy and his lawyer and 0:01:57.200 --> 0:01:59.800 the Feds. Rudy, I think, has wanted to get you know, 0:02:00.080 --> 0:02:03.680 put this behind him and you know, move on, um, 0:02:04.160 --> 0:02:08.320 and the prosecutors in Manhattan are like unwilling to like 0:02:08.840 --> 0:02:11.720 tell him what they're interested in. That's why this become 0:02:11.760 --> 0:02:15.600 a stalemate. And yes, as recently as early March, um, 0:02:15.680 --> 0:02:17.720 you know, Rudy, Laura once again said why you know, 0:02:18.280 --> 0:02:20.000 why don't we just come in and tell you what 0:02:20.040 --> 0:02:24.280 we were doing in Ukraine? And they're saying, like, no preconditions, 0:02:24.280 --> 0:02:27.840 We just you know, uh, you know, if you want 0:02:27.840 --> 0:02:29.640 to come in and talk, come in and talk. And 0:02:30.639 --> 0:02:33.959 Giuliani's lawyer who's also in the seventies in very old 0:02:33.960 --> 0:02:36.400 school guy who used to be a prose baby prosecutor 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:39.560 way back in the seventies at in Manhattan. So why 0:02:39.560 --> 0:02:42.040 are you guys doing this the hard way? So that 0:02:42.120 --> 0:02:44.720 became the theme of the story, the headline and all that. 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:49.720 Do do prosecutors meet with lawyers and clients when the 0:02:49.800 --> 0:02:55.440 client is the target of the investigation, that's a little different. 0:02:55.720 --> 0:02:58.200 So when they're when they're when you have a target, 0:02:58.600 --> 0:03:02.120 then they don't want to allow the target, uh, to 0:03:02.240 --> 0:03:04.680 just come in and decide what evidence to put forth. 0:03:05.200 --> 0:03:08.800 They want to you know, keep their maximum flexibility, their 0:03:08.840 --> 0:03:12.000 ability to ask any range of questions. They want to 0:03:12.040 --> 0:03:15.160 hold to that and not give any sort of tip 0:03:15.240 --> 0:03:17.560 as to what they might ask about because they don't want, 0:03:18.040 --> 0:03:20.760 you know, otherwise, why not just you know, submit like 0:03:20.840 --> 0:03:23.560 a series of written questions and you know, rely on 0:03:23.560 --> 0:03:27.840 written responses, you know, make it easy for defense layers. Know, 0:03:28.120 --> 0:03:32.440 the prosecutors I think want to basically you know, at 0:03:32.480 --> 0:03:34.440 their own time and choosing decide what they want to 0:03:34.480 --> 0:03:36.400 ask and when they want to ask it. So then 0:03:36.400 --> 0:03:43.960 does that indicate that Juliani might be a target here? Right, 0:03:44.000 --> 0:03:45.800 they haven't declared it, and of course they don't go 0:03:45.840 --> 0:03:49.320 about declaring that, and um, you know, as of March, 0:03:49.560 --> 0:03:52.600 Rudy was not It's clear that as of early March, 0:03:52.680 --> 0:03:56.840 Rudy was a subject, namely like he was involved with 0:03:56.960 --> 0:04:00.160 some characters who were under investigation over issues that were 0:04:00.240 --> 0:04:03.240 under investigation, but he himself was not a target. But 0:04:03.760 --> 0:04:06.680 there's no declaration of this from the Southern District of 0:04:06.680 --> 0:04:08.360 New York. But the fact that you'd send a bunch 0:04:08.360 --> 0:04:11.360 of FBI agents at six am to collect all his 0:04:11.440 --> 0:04:15.720 electronic devices suggests that, yeah, he like it certainly seems 0:04:15.800 --> 0:04:18.200 like he's a target. They're acting like he's a target. 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:20.200 And in the court of public opinion, and this is 0:04:20.240 --> 0:04:24.360 what's really angering Rudy's lawyer. In the court of public opinion, 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:26.880 when you see a bunch of FBI agents show up 0:04:26.880 --> 0:04:29.880 at someone's department, the public, you know, can only construe 0:04:29.920 --> 0:04:33.479 that as, oh, he must have done something wrong. So basically, 0:04:33.520 --> 0:04:36.360 Rudy's lawyer and Alan Dershowitz has said the same thing 0:04:36.720 --> 0:04:39.240 that Alan dersh wits consulting with them that you know, 0:04:39.279 --> 0:04:41.400 there's a way to do this if you want the devices, 0:04:41.480 --> 0:04:43.840 you can just to issue a grand jury subpoena. It's 0:04:43.839 --> 0:04:46.240 all secret. There's no you know, leak of this to 0:04:46.279 --> 0:04:49.000 the public, and we can negotiate as to whether or 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:53.080 not something is uh falls under attorney client privilege or 0:04:53.520 --> 0:04:56.200 executive privilege in the case of Rudy's most famous client, 0:04:56.279 --> 0:04:59.839 former President Donald Trump. So now here you have the 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:03.040 former U. S. Attorney from Manhattan, the former mayor of 0:05:03.080 --> 0:05:06.400 New York. How high a bar would it be to 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:10.599 get a search warrant for him? Extremely high? Because yes, 0:05:10.839 --> 0:05:13.680 the former U S. Attorney for the Southern District, a 0:05:13.760 --> 0:05:16.280 former number three official in the Reagan Justice Department in 0:05:16.279 --> 0:05:18.680 the nineteen eighties. Uh, not just a two term New 0:05:18.720 --> 0:05:21.560 York City mayor, but America's mayor who was lauded for 0:05:21.680 --> 0:05:25.159 his you know, the valiant performance that he gave after 0:05:25.200 --> 0:05:29.279 September eleventh in going to all the firefighter's funerals. He 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:32.200 was indefatigable, and he became a symbol, you know, of 0:05:32.240 --> 0:05:34.320 a resurge in New York in the wake of those 0:05:34.360 --> 0:05:37.800 attacks and then the presidential candidate. So for Rudy to 0:05:37.839 --> 0:05:41.000 be being treated like this, not just by the just Department, 0:05:41.000 --> 0:05:44.520 but by the very office which he led, is pretty astonishing. 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.360 And so there's this disconnect, like what Rudy's lawyer and 0:05:48.480 --> 0:05:51.000 seemed to know about this doesn't add up to the 0:05:51.240 --> 0:05:53.560 It's almost as other prosecutes went nuclear to take a 0:05:53.600 --> 0:05:55.719 step like this. It's what they did with Michael Cohen. 0:05:56.120 --> 0:05:59.159 And look what happened to Michael Cohen. Uh, it ended 0:05:59.200 --> 0:06:01.680 badly for Cohen. And so that's not to say it's 0:06:01.680 --> 0:06:03.719 going to end badly for Rudy, but it's there's a 0:06:04.440 --> 0:06:07.560 if you're in Rudy shoes, there's a disturbing parallel to 0:06:07.600 --> 0:06:10.640 what happened to the last guy who was Trump's lawyer, 0:06:11.440 --> 0:06:15.800 who had FBI agents come and clean out his house. Now, Um, 0:06:16.440 --> 0:06:20.320 the fact that the raid does that indicate the beginning 0:06:20.320 --> 0:06:23.560 of the investigation, the middle of the investigation, the end 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:27.360 of the investigation where you can't tell. Um, we can't tell, 0:06:27.400 --> 0:06:29.400 but I would guess the middle. So you don't do 0:06:29.440 --> 0:06:31.520 this unless you have enough to justify it to a 0:06:31.600 --> 0:06:34.560 judge that we need to search warrant and we can't 0:06:34.600 --> 0:06:38.120 give any advanced notice because things might get cleaned or wiped. Uh, 0:06:38.160 --> 0:06:41.360 so that's something. However, it can't be near the end 0:06:41.600 --> 0:06:44.440 because or at least I doubt it, because there's gonna 0:06:44.440 --> 0:06:46.760 be so much material that even if you had a 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:51.239 well formed thesis as to you know, allegations about someone 0:06:51.279 --> 0:06:54.000 doing something wrong, Um, you're gonna have to go through 0:06:54.279 --> 0:06:58.159 like a massive amount of material that is contained in 0:06:58.160 --> 0:07:01.040 those devices through a defined pure time, not up until 0:07:01.080 --> 0:07:03.720 the present day. But I think the search warrant was 0:07:03.760 --> 0:07:08.440 just through basically the end of So this is all 0:07:08.480 --> 0:07:11.360 focused on Ukraine, so it's about that. But still, um, 0:07:11.400 --> 0:07:13.320 there's so much material that the Feds are going to 0:07:13.400 --> 0:07:16.200 have to go through that it can't be like right 0:07:16.240 --> 0:07:17.920 at the one yard line. That has to be that 0:07:18.280 --> 0:07:21.080 there's a bit of ways to go before whatever they're 0:07:21.080 --> 0:07:24.640 gonna file or do they'll do. Do you know exactly 0:07:24.680 --> 0:07:29.360 what they're investigating him about. It's it's Ukraine? But what 0:07:29.360 --> 0:07:34.600 what about Ukraine? So the search warrant that was executed 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.080 was it I guess ten days ago, twelve days ago 0:07:38.440 --> 0:07:42.160 on Rudy's apartment. Um, you know, in addition to Rudy's 0:07:42.200 --> 0:07:47.960 electronic devices, it's specified communications with certain individuals. UM a 0:07:48.040 --> 0:07:51.640 lawyer in Washington, Victoria Tenzing, who with her husband Joe Dejenev, 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.080 has been an outspoken proponent and supporter of President Trump 0:07:55.480 --> 0:07:58.960 UH and was also involved with representations of clients in Ukraine. 0:07:59.440 --> 0:08:02.200 And then UM a journalist named John Solomon who wrote 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:07.800 a number of articles that UM basically criticized or pointed out, 0:08:07.920 --> 0:08:12.920 you know, allegedly supposed purportedly negative information about the former 0:08:13.000 --> 0:08:16.720 US Ambassador to Ukraine, Marie Giovanovich. UM and then a 0:08:16.760 --> 0:08:20.880 couple of Ukrainian former Ukrainian officials who are widely believed 0:08:21.400 --> 0:08:24.200 you know, in the West to be corrupt, UM who 0:08:24.240 --> 0:08:28.600 met with Rudy Giuliani and gave him, you know, you know, 0:08:28.640 --> 0:08:33.680 purportedly incriminating information about either Hunter Biden or Joe Biden. 0:08:33.920 --> 0:08:37.480 So this all seems to be swirling around the attempt 0:08:37.480 --> 0:08:42.600 in to get rid of Marie Jovanovich as the US 0:08:42.640 --> 0:08:48.080 ambassador in Kiev, and also UM It's coincides with an 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:51.920 attempt to basically, uh, you know, create some kind of 0:08:51.960 --> 0:08:55.320 investigation surrounding the Bidens that you know, would have had 0:08:55.360 --> 0:09:00.080 an impact probably in the election. And did Giuliani and 0:09:00.240 --> 0:09:04.120 his lawyer did Giuliani or his lawyer go to ban 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:09.240 Justice to present their case or there Yes, So at 0:09:09.280 --> 0:09:12.960 the beginning of this um after leave Partisan or Fruman 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:17.559 were charged in the fall with you know, campaign finance 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:22.240 violations UM. That was also at the time that Rudy 0:09:22.400 --> 0:09:25.520 had developed his whole thesis about you know, corruption in 0:09:25.559 --> 0:09:29.720 the Biden family involving Ukraine and this energy company Barisma. 0:09:29.840 --> 0:09:33.040 And basically what it would have done if you were 0:09:33.080 --> 0:09:36.320 to believe what Rudy's you know friends, the former and 0:09:36.600 --> 0:09:40.560 you know allegedly corrupt Ukrainian officials told him, was that, 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:44.680 you know, a Ukraine was involved in the hacking of 0:09:44.720 --> 0:09:49.240 democratic emails in not Russia, and be uh, you know, 0:09:49.400 --> 0:09:52.880 Biden was protecting his son and blowing up an investigation 0:09:52.920 --> 0:09:55.800 that would have exposed corruption. So it would have been 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:59.280 a way to undercut the Mueller investigation, which was in 0:09:59.360 --> 0:10:02.000 full force that time and causing Trump a lot of problems, 0:10:02.400 --> 0:10:06.160 and sort of undermine that investigation by claiming and providing, 0:10:06.320 --> 0:10:08.680 you know, some support for the idea that you know, 0:10:08.760 --> 0:10:12.240 Russia never got involved in interfering in the election, was 0:10:12.280 --> 0:10:14.679 all Ukraine and it was on behalf of a cabal 0:10:15.120 --> 0:10:19.560 of democratic officials, including you know, Joe Biden. So that's 0:10:19.559 --> 0:10:23.040 the sort of alternative theory that Rudy was working on. 0:10:23.400 --> 0:10:26.200 And so when he was when it became clear that 0:10:26.440 --> 0:10:30.920 an investigation from the federal prosecutors in Manhattan was involved 0:10:31.040 --> 0:10:34.040 him or at least a couple of his business associates, 0:10:34.360 --> 0:10:37.480 he wanted to shop this information somewhere. He realized he 0:10:37.520 --> 0:10:40.160 couldn't go to Manhattan with it because they had other interests. 0:10:40.200 --> 0:10:43.720 So he went to main Justice, to Attorney General williambar 0:10:44.280 --> 0:10:47.000 not directly, but it must have been, you know, a 0:10:47.040 --> 0:10:50.559 decision must have been made fairly high up in UH 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:55.600 in late twenty to basically appoint the U S Attorney 0:10:55.600 --> 0:10:59.600 in Pittsburgh, the Western District of Pennsylvania, to basically look 0:10:59.600 --> 0:11:03.600 into Rudy's allegations about corruption by the Bidens in Ukraine. 0:11:04.000 --> 0:11:08.080 And so routine is lawyer flew out to Pittsburgh in January, 0:11:08.480 --> 0:11:11.800 spent several hours before a team of five senior prosecutors 0:11:11.800 --> 0:11:15.040 and five senior FBI agents from that office, and outlined 0:11:15.080 --> 0:11:19.840 the whole theory of surrounding Joe Biden basically you know, 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:23.320 interfering with you know, the Ukraine to protect his his 0:11:23.360 --> 0:11:26.160 son hunter who is getting paid very well as a 0:11:26.840 --> 0:11:28.960 to be on the board of directors of this you know, 0:11:29.360 --> 0:11:33.559 Dodgy Energy company in Ukraine. So it's not clear that's 0:11:33.600 --> 0:11:36.520 gone anywhere. They made that presentation. There's been some follow ups, 0:11:36.520 --> 0:11:39.240 some of the investigators in Pittsburgh have since you know, 0:11:39.840 --> 0:11:41.920 done an interview here or there, but there doesn't it 0:11:42.040 --> 0:11:44.960 doesn't seem to have been and you know, the US 0:11:45.000 --> 0:11:47.720 Attorney's office obviously won't comment on it. But if that 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.880 investigation gained any traction at all, it's not clear. There's 0:11:50.920 --> 0:11:53.719 no evidence of that. It seems to be kind of moribund. 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:59.920 Has Giuliani's attorney said what his defense might be here, Yes, 0:12:00.080 --> 0:12:05.000 actually that Bob Costello has pointed out that if this 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.439 is a phara violation, in other words, of violation, if 0:12:07.440 --> 0:12:11.880 you're claiming that Rudi Giuliani violated the law that requires 0:12:12.200 --> 0:12:15.199 you know, you register with the Justice Oparment if you're 0:12:15.240 --> 0:12:19.440 representing a you know, a foreign agent or basically the 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.559 uh you're representing a foreign entity, either individuals from a 0:12:23.600 --> 0:12:27.319 foreign country or you know, the sovereign country itself, or 0:12:27.600 --> 0:12:30.760 some kind of a company or government, you know, entity 0:12:30.840 --> 0:12:33.320 of a foreign company in the United States, you have 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:35.920 to file what's known as a PHARAH form f A 0:12:36.160 --> 0:12:39.040 r A. So that has been you know, that was 0:12:39.280 --> 0:12:43.200 you know, floated against Mike Flynn that he never registered 0:12:43.320 --> 0:12:47.200 you know, under Farah for his representation of Turkey. And 0:12:48.120 --> 0:12:52.319 basically what Juliana's lawyer has maintained is that there is 0:12:52.360 --> 0:12:55.480 an exception to PHARAH. You don't have to you know, 0:12:55.880 --> 0:12:59.520 file you know, uh pharah if you're acting in defense 0:12:59.559 --> 0:13:01.960 of your client. In other words, your act really act 0:13:02.040 --> 0:13:04.560 me as a lawyer, not a lobbyist. If you're in 0:13:04.559 --> 0:13:08.240 in this case, Rudy, in his investigations in Ukraine, dealing 0:13:08.240 --> 0:13:11.040 with a lot of those foreign entities, was just gathering 0:13:11.120 --> 0:13:14.160 evidence in the defense of his client, Donald J. Trump, 0:13:14.200 --> 0:13:16.240 who happened to be the President of the United States. 0:13:16.600 --> 0:13:19.720 This is at a time when Trump was, in fact, 0:13:19.880 --> 0:13:23.760 you know, the subject of Mueller's criminal investigation into Russian 0:13:23.800 --> 0:13:27.440 interference in the election. So therefore, any effort to present 0:13:27.440 --> 0:13:31.320 a defense for Trump would would constitute you know, the 0:13:31.360 --> 0:13:35.280 type of you know, basically lawyer client activity that does 0:13:35.320 --> 0:13:39.360 not require you to file for you know, a Pharaoh registration. 0:13:39.600 --> 0:13:43.560 So that's the theory, and you know, uh, you know, 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:47.920 that's what Rudy's lawyer has maintained. Rudy has quite a team. 0:13:47.960 --> 0:13:51.280 You mentioned Alan Dershowitz before, but he has a lot 0:13:51.320 --> 0:13:54.680 of people on his legal team. Yes. So he has 0:13:54.920 --> 0:13:57.520 Bob Costello, who is a former colleague of his from 0:13:57.559 --> 0:13:59.520 the U. S. Sterns Officer Manhattan back in the nineteen 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:02.560 seventies and a longtime criminal defense lawyer in the New 0:14:02.600 --> 0:14:05.640 York area. So Costell has been representing him for at 0:14:05.679 --> 0:14:08.280 least a year and a half. He also just added 0:14:08.880 --> 0:14:11.640 a team of prosecutors from a Brooklyn firm mostly known 0:14:11.679 --> 0:14:15.520 for its local, you know, crime defenses, but it features 0:14:15.520 --> 0:14:19.400 a couple of guys a former tired judge um uh 0:14:19.440 --> 0:14:23.360 included among them, who are experts in search and seizure warrants, 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:27.120 and also Dershowitz himself. This is one of his you know, 0:14:27.640 --> 0:14:31.880 uh you know, strong points, and it's clear from Derschwitz 0:14:31.960 --> 0:14:34.360 is advising them, so he's not really like a lawyer 0:14:34.360 --> 0:14:35.640 for the team. I think that's what a guy like 0:14:35.720 --> 0:14:40.280 Dershwitz does these days is you know, uh, basically advises consults. 0:14:40.320 --> 0:14:42.520 But the fact that Dershwitz and the new guys in 0:14:42.560 --> 0:14:45.440 Brooklyn who have an interest in search and seizure law 0:14:45.800 --> 0:14:49.080 are involved. It indicates that it's pretty clear that they 0:14:49.120 --> 0:14:53.200 want to challenge not just the search warrant that was 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:57.200 executed in late April, but you know basically the the 0:14:57.280 --> 0:15:01.040 eye cloud, the subpoena through which the US government a 0:15:01.080 --> 0:15:04.080 year and a half ago got basically you know, most 0:15:04.080 --> 0:15:07.960 of the electronic data you know, call information from Rudy's 0:15:07.960 --> 0:15:13.880 electronic devices from Apple Inc. In uh late So that 0:15:13.960 --> 0:15:18.480 will take a lot of money. Does Giuliani have that money? Well, 0:15:18.600 --> 0:15:21.000 you know, I've I've read press reports about that as well. 0:15:21.000 --> 0:15:22.960 It will take a lot of money. And that's the 0:15:23.000 --> 0:15:26.160 problem with Rudy having represented the President Trump for free 0:15:26.200 --> 0:15:28.400 basically for a couple of years, as he was not 0:15:28.480 --> 0:15:31.520 making a lot of money. Um, and uh, you know 0:15:31.720 --> 0:15:35.320 it's yeah, that's you know, I'm sure these guys are 0:15:35.320 --> 0:15:38.320 coming on board, you know, confident that they'll get paid. 0:15:38.720 --> 0:15:41.160 But at the same time, you know, money is an object, 0:15:41.240 --> 0:15:44.240 it's not. And Rudy has facing like now this this 0:15:44.560 --> 0:15:49.080 big lawsuit from the dominion. Uh. You know that that 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:53.040 company that does the election machines that has sued you know, 0:15:53.120 --> 0:15:57.880 Rudy and Sidney Powell and Trump's lawyers who claimed without 0:15:57.880 --> 0:16:01.520 any evidence that the dominion machines have been manipulated in 0:16:01.640 --> 0:16:04.040 order to produce a victory for Joe Biden a couple 0:16:04.080 --> 0:16:06.800 of months ago. So that's a you know, some people 0:16:06.880 --> 0:16:09.800 might describe that lawsuit is frivolous, but you know that's 0:16:09.800 --> 0:16:11.640 going to cost Rudy money as well. That's a different 0:16:11.640 --> 0:16:14.360 representation with a different set of lawyers. So, yes, Rudy 0:16:14.760 --> 0:16:18.680 has to be Rudy. Legal bills are are climbing, and 0:16:18.800 --> 0:16:21.800 it's clear from his divorce papers, the part of it 0:16:21.840 --> 0:16:24.280 that was public a few years ago that you know, 0:16:25.080 --> 0:16:28.840 you know, his his his his financial resources are not infinite. 0:16:29.440 --> 0:16:35.080 Thanks Craig. That's Bloomberg Legal reporter Greg Farrell. Derek Chauvin, 0:16:35.160 --> 0:16:38.600 and three other former Minneapolis police officers involved in the 0:16:38.600 --> 0:16:41.480 death of George Floyd have been indicted by a federal 0:16:41.520 --> 0:16:45.960 grand jury for violating Floyd's constitutional rights during the arrest 0:16:46.000 --> 0:16:50.080 that sparked nationwide protests over police violence against black people. 0:16:50.800 --> 0:16:53.720 The indictment was unsealed Friday and comes less than three 0:16:53.760 --> 0:16:57.320 weeks after Chauvin was found guilty on separate state charges 0:16:57.400 --> 0:17:00.640 of murder and manslaughter for holding his knee on Floyd's 0:17:00.680 --> 0:17:04.119 neck for more than nine minutes. Joining me is Eric 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:09.360 Larson Bloomberg Legal reporter. What are the charges that the 0:17:09.400 --> 0:17:13.560 Feds have brought against Chauvin and the three other officers? 0:17:15.040 --> 0:17:17.960 So in this case there are three charges. There are 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:22.600 all civil federal civil rights violations here. The first count 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:27.359 is against Chauvin accuses him of depriving Mr Floyd of 0:17:27.520 --> 0:17:30.280 his civil rights is right to be free from improper 0:17:30.320 --> 0:17:34.080 treatment by a police officer um and violating his rights 0:17:34.680 --> 0:17:38.639 in resulting in bodily harmon at forth his death. The 0:17:38.720 --> 0:17:42.280 second charge is against two of the assisting officers, and 0:17:42.359 --> 0:17:46.000 they are accused of observing Mr Chauvelin with his knee 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:50.960 on Mr floyd neck and essentially failing to intervene uh 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.000 they could say wilfully failing to intervene and resulting in 0:17:54.520 --> 0:17:58.960 Mr Floyd's rights being violated. A third charge is against 0:17:59.080 --> 0:18:04.240 the is against all of the officers, including the fourth officer, 0:18:04.720 --> 0:18:08.159 and they're accused of failing to offer medical assistance to 0:18:08.280 --> 0:18:12.439 Mr Floyd when he clearly needed it. So we often 0:18:12.480 --> 0:18:17.439 hear about federal charges being brought when state charges fail, 0:18:17.920 --> 0:18:20.639 for example in the Ronney King case. But here you 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.840 have Chauvin already convicted of murder. The other officers haven't 0:18:23.880 --> 0:18:26.960 even gone to trial yet. Is it unusual to bring 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:31.440 federal civil rights charges at this stage? Well, I think 0:18:32.040 --> 0:18:34.879 we're seeing that this entire case is unique and in 0:18:34.920 --> 0:18:37.680 a lot of different ways, just because there have been 0:18:37.720 --> 0:18:41.560 so many instances of this kind of interaction between police 0:18:41.760 --> 0:18:45.240 and black men not resulting in this type type of action, right, So, 0:18:45.359 --> 0:18:47.400 just the fact that they bought the charges at all 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.720 is very different here, especially when you see these charges 0:18:50.840 --> 0:18:54.720 being brought against officers who were not accused of, you know, 0:18:54.800 --> 0:18:58.240 murder the way Chauvin, when they're accused of serious violation 0:18:58.359 --> 0:19:02.040 simply by not taking any action to intervene. So that 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:04.920 makes it pretty unusual. And I think to your point 0:19:04.960 --> 0:19:09.160 about a federal charges being brought on top of successfully 0:19:09.359 --> 0:19:13.679 argued state charges, it just shows a signal really from 0:19:13.720 --> 0:19:16.919 the Justice Department, from the Biden administration that there is 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:20.000 a change of tone and how these types of incidents 0:19:20.080 --> 0:19:23.000 are going to be handled by the federal government. I 0:19:23.080 --> 0:19:26.400 think it would have been pretty unusual, even though for 0:19:26.480 --> 0:19:30.120 the Biden administration um in in in a case such 0:19:30.160 --> 0:19:33.960 as this, to not do anything even after a successful 0:19:34.080 --> 0:19:38.120 state case um, you know, as the Attorney General of Minnesota, 0:19:38.600 --> 0:19:41.399 Keith Ellison said in a statement last week after these 0:19:41.480 --> 0:19:43.679 charges were brought. He said, the federal government has a 0:19:43.720 --> 0:19:47.119 responsibility to protect the civil rights as every American and 0:19:47.160 --> 0:19:49.960 pursue justice to the fullest extent. And I think that 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:52.360 the point that he was sort of getting at there 0:19:52.359 --> 0:19:54.879 the fullest extent means you bring the charges if a 0:19:54.960 --> 0:19:58.360 violation has occurred, not just if the state charges failed. 0:19:59.440 --> 0:20:02.760 And why is there a separate indictment of Chauvin? What 0:20:02.920 --> 0:20:07.240 is that for? This stems from a separate incidence between 0:20:07.240 --> 0:20:11.000 a Chauvin and a fourteen year old black boy in 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:15.000 two thousand seventeen. He was the responding officer to a 0:20:15.040 --> 0:20:19.040 dispute between this boy and his mother. When the boy 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:24.080 did not follow his instructions, Chauvin struck him so violently 0:20:24.160 --> 0:20:28.480 that stitches were necessary, essentially choked and strangled until they 0:20:28.520 --> 0:20:31.920 passed out, and also had his knee on him to 0:20:32.040 --> 0:20:34.720 hold him in place for quite some time, even longer 0:20:34.760 --> 0:20:38.880 than what happened with Mr Floyd. So obviously it would 0:20:38.880 --> 0:20:40.600 be a good question to find out why it has 0:20:40.680 --> 0:20:43.640 taken so long while you had to have this much 0:20:43.800 --> 0:20:48.120 higher profile murder take place. For this incident to come 0:20:48.119 --> 0:20:50.879 to light, clearly, the details around it would have already 0:20:50.880 --> 0:20:52.879 been known to a lot of people for several years 0:20:52.920 --> 0:20:56.800 now and nothing happened. But at any rate, the charges 0:20:56.960 --> 0:20:59.600 have been brought now, um, and he has accused of 0:20:59.680 --> 0:21:02.440 violent in the civil rights of that boy as well. 0:21:03.920 --> 0:21:06.520 So what does the Justice Department have to prove in 0:21:06.560 --> 0:21:08.879 a case like this? Do they have to prove that 0:21:08.920 --> 0:21:11.879 they that the police officers intended to violate the civil 0:21:12.000 --> 0:21:16.359 rights of the victims? Sister department have to prove in 0:21:16.359 --> 0:21:18.679 a case like this? Do they have to prove that 0:21:18.760 --> 0:21:23.360 they intended to that the police officers intended to violate 0:21:23.480 --> 0:21:27.920 the civil rights of the victims? I don't know if 0:21:27.600 --> 0:21:30.960 it's intent would work that way in in a case 0:21:31.040 --> 0:21:34.560 like this, because it's the charges are pretty specific in 0:21:34.600 --> 0:21:38.719 what they say, Uh, just that they were aware of 0:21:38.920 --> 0:21:41.679 what was happening in front of them and chose to 0:21:41.720 --> 0:21:45.560 not take action. So UM, you know, when you're in 0:21:45.680 --> 0:21:49.960 Chauvin's case, you know, being accused of murder, Um, you 0:21:50.000 --> 0:21:52.520 know you've had Even even in that case, they didn't 0:21:52.600 --> 0:21:56.199 charge him with with first degree murder, which would have required, um, 0:21:56.280 --> 0:22:00.080 some proof of intent. So in a case like this, 0:22:00.440 --> 0:22:04.040 it's you know, it's just going to be showing exactly 0:22:04.080 --> 0:22:06.639 what happened. I mean, they they are on the video 0:22:06.720 --> 0:22:12.160 observing um this, these actions and failing to intervene. Uh So, 0:22:12.480 --> 0:22:15.040 I think what we'll see is not so much a 0:22:15.160 --> 0:22:19.720 question of intent as as the defense lawyers possibly trying 0:22:19.760 --> 0:22:23.880 to raise um questions about what what these other officers 0:22:23.880 --> 0:22:27.560 were really responsible for, what they were really required to do. 0:22:27.600 --> 0:22:30.480 They will point to some evidence that a few of 0:22:30.480 --> 0:22:33.440 the officers who were actually training at the time their 0:22:33.520 --> 0:22:38.720 rookies um that uh that they were just essentially doing 0:22:38.760 --> 0:22:41.960 what Chauvin was requiring them to do, and that he 0:22:42.600 --> 0:22:45.040 it wasn't up to them to question him beyond they 0:22:45.080 --> 0:22:48.520 did what they did. Um. Whereas I think the prosecutors 0:22:48.520 --> 0:22:50.720 are saying that you need to go beyond this, saying, hey, 0:22:50.840 --> 0:22:54.480 do you think maybe we need to move this man 0:22:54.520 --> 0:22:58.440 around so he's doesn't die. They're gonna need They're going 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:01.320 to show that they should should have potential physically intervened 0:23:01.359 --> 0:23:03.960 and stopped a murder from happening in front of them. 0:23:04.160 --> 0:23:06.320 But you can see that their defense is probably it 0:23:06.359 --> 0:23:09.400 would make sense that they're going to blame it as 0:23:09.440 --> 0:23:11.560 much as they can on Chauvin and say, hey, these 0:23:11.720 --> 0:23:16.159 were rookies and they were it wasn't their place to intervene. 0:23:17.040 --> 0:23:21.200 Do you know what what Chauvin's defense to the federal 0:23:21.280 --> 0:23:28.480 charges would be. I don't know what it would be exactly. 0:23:28.600 --> 0:23:32.480 I we did reach out to his lawyer or comments 0:23:32.520 --> 0:23:37.520 after he the grandeury indictment was unfiled. Um, we didn't. 0:23:37.560 --> 0:23:41.920 He declined to comments. UM. I mean, obviously the defense 0:23:42.200 --> 0:23:45.280 strategy didn't work out in the state case with those 0:23:45.359 --> 0:23:49.320