1 00:00:04,200 --> 00:00:07,600 Speaker 1: On this episode of Newsworld, My guest today is the 2 00:00:08,280 --> 00:00:12,760 Speaker 1: remarkably talented writer Malcolm Gladwell. He is the author of 3 00:00:12,800 --> 00:00:17,360 Speaker 1: six New York Times bestsellers, including Talking to Strangers, David 4 00:00:17,400 --> 00:00:22,119 Speaker 1: and Goliath, Outliers, Blink, and The Tipping Point. He is 5 00:00:22,120 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 1: the co founder and president of Pushkin Industries, an audiobook 6 00:00:25,680 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: and podcast production company that produces the podcasts Revisionist History, 7 00:00:31,080 --> 00:00:35,200 Speaker 1: Broken Record, a music interview show, and Solvable, in which 8 00:00:35,240 --> 00:00:39,120 Speaker 1: Gladwell interviews innovative thinkers with solutions to some of the 9 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,800 Speaker 1: world's biggest problems. He's here to talk about his new 10 00:00:42,880 --> 00:00:47,400 Speaker 1: book The Bomber Mafia, A Dream, A Temptation, and The 11 00:00:47,479 --> 00:01:00,160 Speaker 1: Longest Night of the Second World War. Malcolm glad Well 12 00:01:00,160 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 1: as one of those people who just has captured the 13 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:07,880 Speaker 1: American spirit as a minor author. By his standards, I 14 00:01:07,920 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: look on his work as just a remarkable achievement. I'm 15 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,600 Speaker 1: amazing at The Tipping Point, how little things can make 16 00:01:14,600 --> 00:01:17,119 Speaker 1: a big difference. Back in the year two thousand, which 17 00:01:17,120 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: really became an amazingly talked about book that I think 18 00:01:20,400 --> 00:01:23,120 Speaker 1: really gave a lot of people some new insights. And 19 00:01:23,160 --> 00:01:26,200 Speaker 1: then he came back with Blink, the Power of Thinking 20 00:01:26,280 --> 00:01:30,479 Speaker 1: Without Thinking in two thousand and five, which again permeated 21 00:01:30,920 --> 00:01:34,319 Speaker 1: the culture. Then he wrote Outliers, The Story of Success 22 00:01:34,360 --> 00:01:36,880 Speaker 1: in two thousand and eight, and then What the Dog 23 00:01:36,959 --> 00:01:40,039 Speaker 1: Saw and Other Adventures in two thousand and nine, and 24 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:43,920 Speaker 1: finally David and Goliath Underdogs Misfits in the Art of 25 00:01:43,920 --> 00:01:49,440 Speaker 1: Battling Giants in two thirteen. And now he's back with 26 00:01:49,520 --> 00:01:55,440 Speaker 1: a really interesting book on the Bomber Mafia, A Dream, 27 00:01:55,600 --> 00:01:59,160 Speaker 1: A Temptation, and The Longest Night of the Second World War. 28 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,840 Speaker 1: I've had a long interest personally as a historian in 29 00:02:02,920 --> 00:02:06,280 Speaker 1: World War Two and in the bomber Mafia and the 30 00:02:06,320 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: gap between what they believed was possible and what was possible. 31 00:02:09,760 --> 00:02:12,640 Speaker 1: But before we get into your new book, The Bomber Mafia, 32 00:02:12,720 --> 00:02:17,079 Speaker 1: I'm just curious, how did you get into this. Your 33 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:21,000 Speaker 1: mother was a psychotherapist, your father's a mathematician. That's certainly 34 00:02:21,000 --> 00:02:25,280 Speaker 1: a wide range of experiences in one household. But how 35 00:02:25,320 --> 00:02:29,440 Speaker 1: did all that lead you to your first book? My 36 00:02:29,560 --> 00:02:32,360 Speaker 1: first book while I was a science reporter at the 37 00:02:32,360 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 1: Washington Post. It didn't study sciences in college. It was 38 00:02:36,760 --> 00:02:39,440 Speaker 1: all something I was discovering for the first time. And 39 00:02:39,919 --> 00:02:42,320 Speaker 1: the Tippic But my first book really came about because 40 00:02:42,760 --> 00:02:45,360 Speaker 1: I was one of the Washington Post reporters who was 41 00:02:45,480 --> 00:02:48,760 Speaker 1: covering the AIDS epidemic, and I was spending all this 42 00:02:48,880 --> 00:02:54,680 Speaker 1: time with epidemiologists, and I became fascinated with how epidemics work. 43 00:02:55,560 --> 00:02:59,400 Speaker 1: And you know, of course, now we've all become amateur 44 00:02:59,440 --> 00:03:01,720 Speaker 1: epidemia just over the last year and a half, but 45 00:03:01,800 --> 00:03:04,119 Speaker 1: this was way back in the eighties, and I'd never 46 00:03:04,200 --> 00:03:07,400 Speaker 1: encountered this before, just this idea that you could have 47 00:03:07,480 --> 00:03:12,440 Speaker 1: these unbelievably disruptive phenomenon that can sweep across a society, 48 00:03:12,840 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: and the phenomenon of these kinds of incredibly rapid, fast 49 00:03:17,639 --> 00:03:23,680 Speaker 1: growing epidemics. These things don't proceed carefully and slowly. They explode, 50 00:03:24,320 --> 00:03:27,280 Speaker 1: and the human brain is not really well set up 51 00:03:27,320 --> 00:03:30,000 Speaker 1: to deal with explosions. And that was really what got 52 00:03:30,040 --> 00:03:33,640 Speaker 1: me interested in that subject. So I'm curious because you 53 00:03:33,680 --> 00:03:35,600 Speaker 1: opened a different door than I simply have to go 54 00:03:35,640 --> 00:03:38,800 Speaker 1: through from it given your background, giving the work you 55 00:03:38,840 --> 00:03:41,960 Speaker 1: did on HIV, which I remember, I was a very 56 00:03:42,040 --> 00:03:45,000 Speaker 1: junior congressman at the time, and I remember working both 57 00:03:45,000 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: with the Center for Disease Control, which I represented in Congress, 58 00:03:49,440 --> 00:03:52,840 Speaker 1: and help with funding on a regular basis, and also 59 00:03:52,920 --> 00:03:57,280 Speaker 1: talking with people at NIH, including the doctor Fauci. How 60 00:03:57,320 --> 00:04:01,920 Speaker 1: do you respond to and the last year as it 61 00:04:02,000 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: relates to COVID, given the depth of experience you had 62 00:04:06,800 --> 00:04:10,800 Speaker 1: in covering an earlier and very different kind of epidemic. Well, 63 00:04:10,840 --> 00:04:15,120 Speaker 1: you know, I think that we forgot some of the 64 00:04:15,200 --> 00:04:19,680 Speaker 1: more important lessons from HIV. We would have been going 65 00:04:19,720 --> 00:04:21,839 Speaker 1: to seem like a curious thing to say, but had 66 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:24,880 Speaker 1: less time separated those two epidemics, I feel like we 67 00:04:24,920 --> 00:04:27,840 Speaker 1: would have been better off. And you know this is true, 68 00:04:28,120 --> 00:04:31,880 Speaker 1: and we're shortly going to talk about wars and armies. 69 00:04:32,200 --> 00:04:35,640 Speaker 1: This is even more the case in the military that 70 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:39,320 Speaker 1: the experience of having gone through a particular kind of 71 00:04:39,760 --> 00:04:45,919 Speaker 1: conflict is so powerful and illuminating on the judgment of 72 00:04:45,960 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: the participants that it shapes the way they deal with 73 00:04:49,640 --> 00:04:53,640 Speaker 1: all other future crises in their career. And that's why 74 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:56,040 Speaker 1: when you lose a cohort of people who have fought 75 00:04:56,080 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: a war, you start over. This is what's so frustrating 76 00:05:00,160 --> 00:05:05,120 Speaker 1: about human beings. You know, a certain generation dies off, retires, 77 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:08,200 Speaker 1: what have you, and the people who come behind them 78 00:05:08,400 --> 00:05:11,360 Speaker 1: don't sit down and study the lessons of their forebears. 79 00:05:11,560 --> 00:05:14,600 Speaker 1: They start over and they make the same mistakes, and 80 00:05:14,680 --> 00:05:19,560 Speaker 1: it's maddening. I feel like if there had been ten 81 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:21,720 Speaker 1: years between the First World War and the Second World War, 82 00:05:21,760 --> 00:05:24,480 Speaker 1: would the Second World War have been different? Maybe, certainly, 83 00:05:24,520 --> 00:05:29,720 Speaker 1: if there'd been less time between Korea and Vietnam, maybe 84 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:31,320 Speaker 1: we would have been better off. I mean, I think 85 00:05:31,360 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 1: you can sort of play this game endlessly. The game 86 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:37,400 Speaker 1: I play with COVID was. I think the great lesson 87 00:05:37,440 --> 00:05:40,159 Speaker 1: of HIV in the end is that epidemics are social 88 00:05:40,160 --> 00:05:45,440 Speaker 1: phenomenon that you don't have to understand the biology of 89 00:05:45,480 --> 00:05:48,599 Speaker 1: the virus in order to thwart the virus. You have 90 00:05:48,640 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: to understand people, how to talk to them, how to 91 00:05:51,160 --> 00:05:54,160 Speaker 1: communicate with them, how to get them aboard on any 92 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:56,320 Speaker 1: kind of a crusade. And I feel like we didn't 93 00:05:56,320 --> 00:05:59,080 Speaker 1: do a very good job of that. We sort of 94 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:02,599 Speaker 1: caught up in all kinds of issues that were secondary 95 00:06:02,760 --> 00:06:09,000 Speaker 1: to getting the population behind a coherence, persuasive strategy. I 96 00:06:09,240 --> 00:06:13,920 Speaker 1: almost feel that sometimes the sheer volume of media makes 97 00:06:13,960 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 1: it harder to understand rather than easier, and then you 98 00:06:18,839 --> 00:06:23,560 Speaker 1: get into daily cycles of briefings that gradually make people 99 00:06:23,640 --> 00:06:26,320 Speaker 1: numb then lead them to not know who to believe. 100 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: But let me use that for a jumping off point 101 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:34,120 Speaker 1: about your book The Bomber Mafia, because this fits perfectly. 102 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,719 Speaker 1: It is one of the great examples I think of 103 00:06:37,880 --> 00:06:42,919 Speaker 1: people who in a sense impose a particular model on reality. 104 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:45,479 Speaker 1: And in the case of World War Two, the generals 105 00:06:45,480 --> 00:06:49,040 Speaker 1: who were at the key places actually had the resources 106 00:06:49,080 --> 00:06:51,919 Speaker 1: and the reach to do it. But it's certainly a 107 00:06:52,040 --> 00:06:55,800 Speaker 1: very different topic than you had written on up till now. 108 00:06:56,080 --> 00:06:59,320 Speaker 1: What led you to pick it? Well, I've always been 109 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:02,640 Speaker 1: history buff and I've always wanted to write a pure 110 00:07:02,640 --> 00:07:06,240 Speaker 1: history book. But the problem with writing about history is 111 00:07:06,279 --> 00:07:10,520 Speaker 1: that the competition is pretty ferocious. There's almost no field 112 00:07:11,040 --> 00:07:14,440 Speaker 1: of kind of modern American letters where there are more 113 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,280 Speaker 1: quality people operating in than history. Right. I mean, I 114 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:19,880 Speaker 1: could name you and I could do the same thing. 115 00:07:19,880 --> 00:07:22,680 Speaker 1: We could sit down cope with ten names of truly 116 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 1: a plus historians who write fantastic popular history. That's super daunting. 117 00:07:27,240 --> 00:07:28,360 Speaker 1: So I was like, you know, I don't think I 118 00:07:28,360 --> 00:07:30,480 Speaker 1: can play that game. And then I wanted to write 119 00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,840 Speaker 1: the Second Mold Boar for the reasons I talked about 120 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:35,840 Speaker 1: in the book, you know, for family reasons. My father 121 00:07:36,000 --> 00:07:39,000 Speaker 1: was a kid in Kent in the beginning of the 122 00:07:39,080 --> 00:07:42,760 Speaker 1: Junior Blitz, and he would sleep under his bed. His 123 00:07:42,840 --> 00:07:44,600 Speaker 1: mom would tell him to sleep under his bed when 124 00:07:44,640 --> 00:07:47,560 Speaker 1: the German bombers flew overhead every night on their way 125 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:49,880 Speaker 1: to flatten London. So it's like I grew up on 126 00:07:49,920 --> 00:07:51,840 Speaker 1: these stories and I always wanted to write about the 127 00:07:51,840 --> 00:07:55,240 Speaker 1: Second Mold Boar. I always despair because I thought, surely 128 00:07:55,280 --> 00:07:58,280 Speaker 1: every great story from the Second Mold Boar has been told, 129 00:07:58,880 --> 00:08:02,840 Speaker 1: and then I finally thought I'd found one that hadn't 130 00:08:02,840 --> 00:08:06,240 Speaker 1: been told for a general audience. I mean, obviously serious 131 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: historians know all about the Barto Mafia, but I didn't 132 00:08:08,440 --> 00:08:10,880 Speaker 1: think they'd been a popular book about them. And that's 133 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:13,679 Speaker 1: what I was like. I may I was like, nude, 134 00:08:13,720 --> 00:08:16,440 Speaker 1: I may never get another chance. I was like, I 135 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:19,240 Speaker 1: better do this right now or someone's going to beat 136 00:08:19,280 --> 00:08:23,000 Speaker 1: me to the punch. That's great, But as I understand it, though, 137 00:08:23,400 --> 00:08:28,880 Speaker 1: you originally started out as an audiobook, Yes, so this 138 00:08:28,920 --> 00:08:32,240 Speaker 1: was the book really intended to be listened to, because 139 00:08:32,520 --> 00:08:35,840 Speaker 1: I wanted to tell the story about this renegade group 140 00:08:35,840 --> 00:08:38,720 Speaker 1: of pilots at Maxwell Air Force Base in the thirties 141 00:08:39,280 --> 00:08:42,200 Speaker 1: and this vision they had of reforming war and how 142 00:08:42,200 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 1: they brought that vision into the Second World War. And 143 00:08:44,920 --> 00:08:48,480 Speaker 1: I quickly realized that the Air Force, being the Air Force, 144 00:08:49,400 --> 00:08:52,440 Speaker 1: they have perfect records. I mean, this is when you 145 00:08:52,840 --> 00:08:56,520 Speaker 1: it's so funny whatever people like rag on the military 146 00:08:56,600 --> 00:09:00,920 Speaker 1: or various parts of government as being inefficient or clue 147 00:09:00,920 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: loss story in compston. I was like, actually, if you 148 00:09:03,840 --> 00:09:05,640 Speaker 1: hang around the Air Force long enough, you come to 149 00:09:05,679 --> 00:09:08,160 Speaker 1: the exact opposite conclusion. This is a group of people 150 00:09:08,200 --> 00:09:13,920 Speaker 1: who know what they're doing, and they have astonishing archives 151 00:09:13,920 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: on the Second World War. You can go to Maxwell 152 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: or Force Base into the library and they have mountains 153 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:23,520 Speaker 1: of audio tape of oral histories, brilliantly down oral histories 154 00:09:23,520 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: where they sit down with every key Air Force figure 155 00:09:25,920 --> 00:09:27,720 Speaker 1: in the Second World War. They do it in the 156 00:09:27,720 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 1: fifties or the sixties when these guys are still alive 157 00:09:30,080 --> 00:09:33,400 Speaker 1: and looking back on their experience, and they basically deepbrief 158 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,840 Speaker 1: them for the benefit of the public. And I found 159 00:09:37,840 --> 00:09:40,079 Speaker 1: this tape and I was like, you know, I can 160 00:09:40,120 --> 00:09:42,720 Speaker 1: write about Curtis LeMay, or I could just play you 161 00:09:42,840 --> 00:09:46,679 Speaker 1: tape of Curtis LeMay. What would you rather hear? You know? 162 00:09:46,760 --> 00:09:51,640 Speaker 1: And the voices you cannot understand Curtis LeMay until you 163 00:09:51,720 --> 00:09:55,880 Speaker 1: hear him and you wander say, oh, this is what 164 00:09:55,960 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: he is. He's like a warrior, right, he is an uncompromising, unsentimental, brilliant, 165 00:10:04,920 --> 00:10:07,720 Speaker 1: hard nosed warrior, and you can hear it in his voice, 166 00:10:07,720 --> 00:10:10,320 Speaker 1: and you can almost hear him when he's talking. Take 167 00:10:10,360 --> 00:10:12,520 Speaker 1: the cigar out of his mouth to answer the question. 168 00:10:12,520 --> 00:10:14,199 Speaker 1: You know what I mean. When I realized there was 169 00:10:14,240 --> 00:10:16,600 Speaker 1: all of this ability to bring the story to life, 170 00:10:16,640 --> 00:10:19,319 Speaker 1: I said, I'm going to start by making the greatest 171 00:10:19,320 --> 00:10:22,360 Speaker 1: audiobook I can where I use all of this tape 172 00:10:22,640 --> 00:10:26,080 Speaker 1: to create an experience. When I talk about the bombing 173 00:10:26,120 --> 00:10:28,679 Speaker 1: rate on Schweinfurt, I want you to feel like you're there. 174 00:10:29,320 --> 00:10:31,200 Speaker 1: And when I talk about the bombing rate on Tokyo 175 00:10:31,240 --> 00:10:33,520 Speaker 1: in March of forty five, I want you to feel 176 00:10:33,520 --> 00:10:36,920 Speaker 1: like you are in one of those bombers, one of 177 00:10:36,920 --> 00:10:40,640 Speaker 1: those super fortresses flying from Guam to Tokyo. So that 178 00:10:40,720 --> 00:10:43,200 Speaker 1: was our intention. We would start by doing a different 179 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:46,000 Speaker 1: kind of audiobook and then we'd spun off the print 180 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,200 Speaker 1: book from it. You know, I hadn't thought about it, 181 00:10:48,200 --> 00:10:54,360 Speaker 1: but you're right. There are brilliant opportunities to bring modern 182 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: history at least to life, because we have so much 183 00:10:57,400 --> 00:11:00,360 Speaker 1: of it on tape and we can actually look people 184 00:11:00,440 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 1: here from the original people. I've been going down to 185 00:11:03,120 --> 00:11:06,040 Speaker 1: Maxwell for about thirty five years. Oh, I didn't know that, 186 00:11:06,080 --> 00:11:08,960 Speaker 1: And yeah, I have been teaching several courses down there. 187 00:11:09,360 --> 00:11:11,200 Speaker 1: Wait what do you teach there? They have a course 188 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:14,199 Speaker 1: called the Joint War Fighting Course, and it's on how 189 00:11:14,240 --> 00:11:17,760 Speaker 1: to think about theater command and basically involves two star 190 00:11:17,840 --> 00:11:21,520 Speaker 1: generals from all the different services in admirals. And at 191 00:11:21,520 --> 00:11:25,120 Speaker 1: one point in that process, a very dear friend of mine, 192 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:30,280 Speaker 1: Chuck Boyd, who was a very long time Vietnam prisoner 193 00:11:30,320 --> 00:11:32,680 Speaker 1: of war and the only prisoner of war to come 194 00:11:32,720 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: back and get four stars. Extraordinarily brilliant guy, and he 195 00:11:37,000 --> 00:11:39,920 Speaker 1: was the head of the Air University, and he had 196 00:11:39,960 --> 00:11:43,960 Speaker 1: curtisil May coming down and arranged it so that I 197 00:11:44,000 --> 00:11:46,640 Speaker 1: would be there teaching and then we would have dinner 198 00:11:46,679 --> 00:11:49,160 Speaker 1: with m Oh my goodness, you Matt Laman, And we 199 00:11:49,240 --> 00:11:51,680 Speaker 1: spent an entire evening and it was just like this 200 00:11:52,679 --> 00:11:57,240 Speaker 1: astonishing experience of a guy who was both very smart 201 00:11:58,160 --> 00:12:02,040 Speaker 1: and very ruthless. Yeah, I asked him a couple of 202 00:12:02,120 --> 00:12:05,040 Speaker 1: questions that triggered him, and it was amazing to watch 203 00:12:05,080 --> 00:12:07,839 Speaker 1: him just go off. At one point, he'd sitting next 204 00:12:07,880 --> 00:12:10,319 Speaker 1: to me at dinner and he turned and began hitting 205 00:12:10,360 --> 00:12:15,240 Speaker 1: me in the arm because he was just so filled 206 00:12:15,280 --> 00:12:20,319 Speaker 1: with energy. And he said, actually that it was the 207 00:12:20,400 --> 00:12:25,240 Speaker 1: experience of being at the tactical school that taught him 208 00:12:25,280 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 1: how to write an eight paragraph field order, and when 209 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,120 Speaker 1: he got to England, he said his greatest contribution to 210 00:12:32,120 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 1: the war was teaching the staff of the Air Force 211 00:12:35,440 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: in Europe, who had not gone to the school, how 212 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: to write a competent order, because they were sending out 213 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:46,040 Speaker 1: these multi page, hard to understand, convoluted things, and he 214 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 1: would take them and he'd rewrite them back into it 215 00:12:49,040 --> 00:12:51,719 Speaker 1: was a standard freg order and send it back to 216 00:12:51,800 --> 00:12:53,400 Speaker 1: him and say, is this what you meant to send me? 217 00:12:53,920 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: And after about eight or nine weeks they said, oh yeah, 218 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,240 Speaker 1: and they began to learn how to do it. He 219 00:12:58,320 --> 00:13:01,360 Speaker 1: then said he was in charge of the seventeen unit, 220 00:13:01,640 --> 00:13:04,240 Speaker 1: that they were frankly not doing very well, and partly 221 00:13:04,240 --> 00:13:07,600 Speaker 1: they weren't doing very well because they were bobbing and 222 00:13:07,640 --> 00:13:11,040 Speaker 1: weaving to avoid the NI aircraft fire, so they could 223 00:13:11,040 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: not get lined up to drop the bombs accurately, and 224 00:13:13,720 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: he called a meeting because he had remembered from his 225 00:13:16,160 --> 00:13:22,200 Speaker 1: nineteen twenty nine Ohio University ROTC manual the likelihood of 226 00:13:22,240 --> 00:13:25,680 Speaker 1: an eighty eight anti aircraft show and a plane being 227 00:13:25,679 --> 00:13:28,600 Speaker 1: in the same space, and it turned out to be 228 00:13:28,800 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 1: exactly the same likelihood whether you were going straight or 229 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,640 Speaker 1: you were bobbing and weaving. And so he called all 230 00:13:35,640 --> 00:13:38,160 Speaker 1: of a senior commanders toga and he said, we're going 231 00:13:38,200 --> 00:13:41,959 Speaker 1: to fly straight. And he said, you can't fly straight, 232 00:13:43,160 --> 00:13:46,640 Speaker 1: you know. He said, trust me, you're as likely to 233 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:50,360 Speaker 1: be shot down, you know, bobbing and weaving, and frankly, 234 00:13:50,640 --> 00:13:54,440 Speaker 1: bobbing and weaving, you aren't hitting anything. And they said, well, 235 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: but we can't do this. He said, I'll tell you what, 236 00:13:56,559 --> 00:13:59,400 Speaker 1: if you really don't want to do it, I'm going 237 00:13:59,480 --> 00:14:03,560 Speaker 1: to ground the entire wing and save the taxpayers the 238 00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 1: aviation fuel, because since we're not doing any good anyway, 239 00:14:07,080 --> 00:14:10,960 Speaker 1: why waste the gasoline. And so they said, okay, all right, 240 00:14:11,000 --> 00:14:12,760 Speaker 1: you left out the most important part of the story. 241 00:14:13,080 --> 00:14:15,720 Speaker 1: And he said, and if you don't believe me, I'll 242 00:14:15,800 --> 00:14:18,880 Speaker 1: show you how it's done. I'll lead the first attack. 243 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:20,840 Speaker 1: I was going to get to that because he said, 244 00:14:21,120 --> 00:14:22,960 Speaker 1: I believe it enough, I'm going to lead the attack. 245 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:25,560 Speaker 1: And then he turned to me, he said, I was 246 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:30,000 Speaker 1: totally terrified when we took off, and I said, God, 247 00:14:30,320 --> 00:14:35,120 Speaker 1: I hope that Manuel was right, but to be there 248 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,080 Speaker 1: in his presence. So this is why what you're doing 249 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:40,280 Speaker 1: is so fascinating, because you're going to expose people in 250 00:14:40,320 --> 00:14:43,800 Speaker 1: the audio version. You're going to expose them to the 251 00:14:43,920 --> 00:14:47,080 Speaker 1: quality of the voice, the intensity of the communication, and 252 00:14:47,160 --> 00:14:50,440 Speaker 1: a lot of these historic figures they are different, you know, 253 00:14:50,480 --> 00:14:56,120 Speaker 1: they're not just bigger versions of normal. My impression from 254 00:14:56,280 --> 00:14:59,520 Speaker 1: researching and reporting this book, curtis to make was the 255 00:14:59,520 --> 00:15:03,920 Speaker 1: greatest back commander of the Second World Board in any domain. Now, 256 00:15:04,000 --> 00:15:05,760 Speaker 1: maybe I got so caught up in the Air Force 257 00:15:05,800 --> 00:15:07,480 Speaker 1: in this that I'm being very, very partial to the 258 00:15:07,520 --> 00:15:10,520 Speaker 1: Air Force, but it struck me that it is hard 259 00:15:10,600 --> 00:15:14,320 Speaker 1: to find another single individual in the Second World War 260 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:20,520 Speaker 1: who contributed as much to particularly our tactical understanding of 261 00:15:20,520 --> 00:15:23,840 Speaker 1: how to fight the enemy effectively. This is one guy. 262 00:15:24,400 --> 00:15:26,400 Speaker 1: I mean, we just nibling. The thing you just described 263 00:15:26,520 --> 00:15:29,000 Speaker 1: is just one of a whole series of innovations that 264 00:15:29,040 --> 00:15:32,640 Speaker 1: he made in how we should bomb more effectively. One 265 00:15:32,720 --> 00:15:37,200 Speaker 1: guy made this insane contribution. Well, and you know it 266 00:15:37,240 --> 00:15:40,880 Speaker 1: continues after the war because he's brought back to rebuild 267 00:15:40,920 --> 00:15:44,720 Speaker 1: the Strategic Air Command at Omaha. And there's a great 268 00:15:44,800 --> 00:15:48,000 Speaker 1: story where he arrives at the places are dump and 269 00:15:48,040 --> 00:15:51,120 Speaker 1: the morale is terrible and they don't have any money. 270 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:53,880 Speaker 1: This is in nineteen forty nine, before the Korean War 271 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,480 Speaker 1: build up, and so he announces that they've got this 272 00:15:57,520 --> 00:15:59,600 Speaker 1: building that if it had been painted and cleaned up, 273 00:16:00,160 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 1: be a great gymnasium, but they don't have any money 274 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:05,640 Speaker 1: to hire painters and so forth, and so he finds 275 00:16:05,680 --> 00:16:08,040 Speaker 1: a little bit of money for paint and he sends 276 00:16:08,040 --> 00:16:11,320 Speaker 1: out on a Wednesday or Thursday that this Saturday, the 277 00:16:11,400 --> 00:16:14,920 Speaker 1: commanding General will be painting and would be glad to 278 00:16:14,960 --> 00:16:18,440 Speaker 1: have anybody who'd like to come and volunteer. And he 279 00:16:18,480 --> 00:16:20,320 Speaker 1: said by the end of the day it was all 280 00:16:20,360 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 1: painted and they now had a gymnasium. And the degree 281 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:26,800 Speaker 1: to which that single active leadership raised their morale was 282 00:16:26,840 --> 00:16:30,400 Speaker 1: just astonishing. But you raised an interesting question. I think 283 00:16:30,560 --> 00:16:34,520 Speaker 1: that what Lemayhead was. First of all, he was amazingly smart. 284 00:16:35,520 --> 00:16:39,720 Speaker 1: He had an ability in a way that very few 285 00:16:39,760 --> 00:16:44,920 Speaker 1: people do to understand that the purpose was to win 286 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:47,560 Speaker 1: the war, and that was going to involve a great 287 00:16:47,600 --> 00:16:51,040 Speaker 1: deal of carnage and a great deal of violence, and 288 00:16:51,360 --> 00:16:55,400 Speaker 1: that you had to take people and train them because 289 00:16:55,480 --> 00:16:58,880 Speaker 1: it wasn't a natural behavior. And then you had to 290 00:16:59,000 --> 00:17:01,600 Speaker 1: methodically just saw a problems and keep solving him and 291 00:17:01,680 --> 00:17:05,040 Speaker 1: keep solving him, but always with this notion that this 292 00:17:05,160 --> 00:17:08,520 Speaker 1: was about winning the war. An addition to Leah, we 293 00:17:08,560 --> 00:17:12,359 Speaker 1: could probably do a six hour podcast just talking about LMI. 294 00:17:12,520 --> 00:17:16,600 Speaker 1: But who else did you find fascinated you and surprised you, Well, 295 00:17:16,640 --> 00:17:20,840 Speaker 1: Heyward Hansel. So the Baramafia is really a story of 296 00:17:20,880 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 1: two men who come into conflict, Curtis LeMay and his 297 00:17:24,560 --> 00:17:29,359 Speaker 1: great antagonist, Heyward Hansel. And Hansel is the idealistic version 298 00:17:29,359 --> 00:17:32,960 Speaker 1: of LeMay. He is the dreamer, the romantic. He's the 299 00:17:32,960 --> 00:17:35,840 Speaker 1: one whose favorite book is Don Quixote, and he is 300 00:17:36,720 --> 00:17:41,840 Speaker 1: besotted with this idea that war can be reformed and 301 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:45,120 Speaker 1: it is possible to fight a war with the minimum 302 00:17:45,119 --> 00:17:48,680 Speaker 1: of casualties on both sides. And he falls in love 303 00:17:48,720 --> 00:17:51,800 Speaker 1: with a set of technologies that he thinks can move 304 00:17:51,920 --> 00:17:55,080 Speaker 1: war from the nineteenth century and fully into the twentieth century. 305 00:17:55,520 --> 00:18:00,240 Speaker 1: And as you know, he turns out to be not wrong, 306 00:18:00,280 --> 00:18:05,720 Speaker 1: but premature. He's imagining if Hayward Hansen would be alive today, 307 00:18:05,800 --> 00:18:08,439 Speaker 1: he would be quite comfortable with the way the Air 308 00:18:08,480 --> 00:18:12,280 Speaker 1: Force does its operations. He's just seventy five years early 309 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,840 Speaker 1: in his vision. But I loved the contrast. This is 310 00:18:15,840 --> 00:18:18,000 Speaker 1: why I wanted to write the book. The contrast. You 311 00:18:18,000 --> 00:18:23,080 Speaker 1: have these two brilliant generals who could not be more different. 312 00:18:23,600 --> 00:18:26,960 Speaker 1: Who are you know? At one end of the spectrum 313 00:18:26,960 --> 00:18:30,720 Speaker 1: you have the ruthless, unsentimental LeMay. At the other end, 314 00:18:30,760 --> 00:18:34,200 Speaker 1: you have this dreamer. And I think you need them 315 00:18:34,240 --> 00:18:38,960 Speaker 1: both in an effective military. I'm glad we had dreamers, 316 00:18:39,040 --> 00:18:42,800 Speaker 1: even if the dreamer's dream didn't turn out to be practical. 317 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,520 Speaker 1: During the Second World War, the thing about Hayward Hansel 318 00:18:45,720 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: was he and his cohorts down at Maxwell really were 319 00:18:51,640 --> 00:18:56,200 Speaker 1: possessed with a moral urgency. They did not want to 320 00:18:56,280 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 1: replay of the First World War. They thought that if 321 00:18:59,640 --> 00:19:02,040 Speaker 1: they could do one thing for humanity, it would be 322 00:19:02,080 --> 00:19:06,439 Speaker 1: to figure out a way not to have a recurrence 323 00:19:06,560 --> 00:19:12,919 Speaker 1: of that level of carnage. And I think established a 324 00:19:13,119 --> 00:19:17,320 Speaker 1: kind of philosophical and ethical tradition within the Air Force 325 00:19:17,680 --> 00:19:21,200 Speaker 1: that persists to this day. I spend some time in 326 00:19:21,200 --> 00:19:24,720 Speaker 1: this book talking to current Air Force leadership. They are 327 00:19:25,400 --> 00:19:29,640 Speaker 1: completely at home speaking a kind of moral language about 328 00:19:29,640 --> 00:19:33,159 Speaker 1: their obligations. It's not foreign to them. They've read their history. 329 00:19:33,880 --> 00:19:36,440 Speaker 1: They know that in the back of their mind has 330 00:19:36,480 --> 00:19:39,920 Speaker 1: to be the consideration that war should be fought as 331 00:19:40,040 --> 00:19:43,439 Speaker 1: cleanly as possible. And they get that from people like 332 00:19:43,760 --> 00:19:46,199 Speaker 1: Heywood Hansel back in the day. And I also have 333 00:19:46,240 --> 00:19:50,080 Speaker 1: a kind of soft spot for a romantics. I mean, 334 00:19:50,119 --> 00:19:54,200 Speaker 1: I like when people have grand dreams, even if those 335 00:19:54,280 --> 00:19:57,920 Speaker 1: dreams come to nought. I think that really good institutions 336 00:19:58,040 --> 00:20:01,679 Speaker 1: make room for those people. One thing, more than anything 337 00:20:02,200 --> 00:20:06,000 Speaker 1: that I came away from doing this book was I 338 00:20:06,040 --> 00:20:08,360 Speaker 1: came away with a level of respect for the Air 339 00:20:08,359 --> 00:20:11,679 Speaker 1: Force that I had not had before. I didn't know 340 00:20:11,720 --> 00:20:14,440 Speaker 1: anything about the Air Force before, and I came away thinking, 341 00:20:14,520 --> 00:20:17,639 Speaker 1: you know what, this is a truly great American institution. 342 00:20:18,000 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: And it's a great American institution because it had room 343 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:27,520 Speaker 1: for dreamers and also warriors, bloodthirsty warriors, and you need both. 344 00:20:45,119 --> 00:20:47,199 Speaker 1: One of the things I noticed that you did is 345 00:20:47,400 --> 00:20:50,520 Speaker 1: you went to the center of the Tokyo raids and 346 00:20:50,560 --> 00:20:55,400 Speaker 1: war damage, which is a real research center for that 347 00:20:55,480 --> 00:20:58,800 Speaker 1: period of time. What did you learn from that? Well, 348 00:20:58,840 --> 00:21:01,000 Speaker 1: that's actually how I began and the book. I was 349 00:21:01,040 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: in Tokyo and happened to go to this little tiny 350 00:21:04,880 --> 00:21:07,600 Speaker 1: museum on a side street in East Tokyo. It's a 351 00:21:07,600 --> 00:21:10,320 Speaker 1: private museum. It's not even a government museum. It is 352 00:21:10,359 --> 00:21:16,920 Speaker 1: the only permanent memorial installation devoted to the fire bombing 353 00:21:16,920 --> 00:21:18,879 Speaker 1: of Tokyo in March of nineteen forty five, about the 354 00:21:18,880 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: twenty first bomber command. And it is as plain, I 355 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:24,560 Speaker 1: don't know if you ever been there nude. It is 356 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: as plane and ordinary and prosaic a museum as you 357 00:21:28,840 --> 00:21:30,960 Speaker 1: will ever see. It looks, like I say in the book, 358 00:21:31,000 --> 00:21:33,520 Speaker 1: it looks like a dentist's office. They probably did the 359 00:21:33,520 --> 00:21:35,760 Speaker 1: whole thing for a couple of thousand dollars, but it 360 00:21:35,840 --> 00:21:39,560 Speaker 1: is the most moving, you know. I've done episodes of 361 00:21:39,560 --> 00:21:42,480 Speaker 1: my podcast on memorials and what I think are wrong 362 00:21:42,520 --> 00:21:45,159 Speaker 1: with them. I'm not happy about the nine eleven memorial, 363 00:21:45,240 --> 00:21:47,680 Speaker 1: for example. I think that was an exercise in excess 364 00:21:48,480 --> 00:21:54,359 Speaker 1: this one because it was so simple and straightforward and prosaic, 365 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:58,760 Speaker 1: it was extraordinarily moving, and it's what sort of compelled 366 00:21:58,800 --> 00:22:01,199 Speaker 1: me to ask the question, how did it come to 367 00:22:01,240 --> 00:22:05,560 Speaker 1: pass that the US Air Force launched in March of 368 00:22:05,600 --> 00:22:08,119 Speaker 1: forty five one of the deadliest nights of bombing in 369 00:22:08,200 --> 00:22:11,439 Speaker 1: human history. And I also liked the idea that this 370 00:22:11,480 --> 00:22:12,760 Speaker 1: is something I didn't put in the book, but I 371 00:22:12,800 --> 00:22:16,320 Speaker 1: should have. So this is a museum that is built 372 00:22:16,359 --> 00:22:21,440 Speaker 1: by a Japanese historian to commemorate what happened that night, 373 00:22:21,960 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: and the first ninety percent of the museum is about 374 00:22:26,520 --> 00:22:29,480 Speaker 1: what the Americans did to Tokyo in March of forty five. 375 00:22:29,680 --> 00:22:32,760 Speaker 1: The last ten percent is how the Japanese used the 376 00:22:32,800 --> 00:22:36,960 Speaker 1: same incendiary bombing tactics against China at the beginning of 377 00:22:36,960 --> 00:22:40,480 Speaker 1: the war. So it is not a one sided ideological exercise. 378 00:22:41,200 --> 00:22:45,560 Speaker 1: He was making a point about how wars sometimes end 379 00:22:45,640 --> 00:22:48,399 Speaker 1: up being fought. The intention of the museum was that 380 00:22:48,440 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 1: we not forget this fact, but it did not have 381 00:22:51,920 --> 00:22:55,239 Speaker 1: an ideological agenda. The point of the museum was to 382 00:22:55,280 --> 00:22:59,159 Speaker 1: make you reflect on what happened, educate you. And that 383 00:23:00,160 --> 00:23:02,520 Speaker 1: is so close to my ideal version of what history 384 00:23:02,560 --> 00:23:06,280 Speaker 1: ought to do. And that's exactly what I did. Right. 385 00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:09,359 Speaker 1: Came away from that experience determined to shed light on 386 00:23:09,960 --> 00:23:13,720 Speaker 1: whatever led up to March ninth, nineteen forty five. What 387 00:23:13,840 --> 00:23:16,080 Speaker 1: is the ten year history that led us to one 388 00:23:16,119 --> 00:23:18,720 Speaker 1: of the most faithful decisions in the second Moore Moore, Yeah, 389 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:22,200 Speaker 1: I think most people don't realize that the fire bombings 390 00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:25,120 Speaker 1: actually killed far more people than the two nuclear weapons. 391 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,639 Speaker 1: Who was also true in Europe, and the great bombing 392 00:23:27,640 --> 00:23:32,000 Speaker 1: of Hamburg, for example, was just extraordinary. And it's interesting. 393 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: I had always thought that our aggressiveness about bombing cities 394 00:23:37,800 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 1: was in part a response to Pearl Harbor. But George Marshall, 395 00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:45,760 Speaker 1: the Chief of Staff of the Army, in the summer 396 00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:49,600 Speaker 1: of nineteen forty one, while we're still at peace, gives 397 00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:53,120 Speaker 1: a speech and says, the Japanese will not dare to 398 00:23:53,160 --> 00:23:57,440 Speaker 1: attack us because their cities are wooden and they will burn. 399 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:01,240 Speaker 1: And it just struck me as kind of amazing that 400 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:06,520 Speaker 1: Marshall would already have understood the rhythm of what our 401 00:24:06,640 --> 00:24:10,240 Speaker 1: counter attack would be like. And then, of course with Lomay, 402 00:24:10,320 --> 00:24:14,879 Speaker 1: you get somebody who is just relentless and carrying it out. Yeah, 403 00:24:14,960 --> 00:24:20,400 Speaker 1: an amazing bombing campaign. The winner of this observation had 404 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:23,520 Speaker 1: been made on a regular basis by the late nineteen 405 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:26,879 Speaker 1: thirties that there was a qualitative difference between European and 406 00:24:27,000 --> 00:24:32,439 Speaker 1: Japanese cities. You just walk around Berlin and you compare 407 00:24:32,480 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 1: that to walking around Tokyo, and you see Berlin is 408 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:38,320 Speaker 1: really hard to burn down. It's too much brick and stone, 409 00:24:38,720 --> 00:24:42,960 Speaker 1: too many firebreaks, too many parks, really wide streets, none 410 00:24:42,960 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 1: of that. You can certainly drop incendi aries on Berlin 411 00:24:45,680 --> 00:24:48,120 Speaker 1: and they'll do a little damage. But we did calculations 412 00:24:48,119 --> 00:24:51,199 Speaker 1: in the thirties about how effective would incendi aries be 413 00:24:51,400 --> 00:24:53,639 Speaker 1: you on a typical European city, and the answer is 414 00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: not that effective. And then they went and did exactly 415 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:01,360 Speaker 1: the same studies on Japanese cities, and they are constructed 416 00:25:02,080 --> 00:25:05,600 Speaker 1: completely opposite. The houses are close together, the streets are narrow, 417 00:25:05,960 --> 00:25:08,960 Speaker 1: the houses are made out of wood and straw and 418 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:13,280 Speaker 1: tar paper. I mean, Marshall's absolutely right, these things were 419 00:25:13,359 --> 00:25:17,639 Speaker 1: tinder boxes. I have a chapter in Baramafia on the 420 00:25:17,840 --> 00:25:22,080 Speaker 1: creation of napalm. Napalm is created in the Second World 421 00:25:22,080 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: War for the explicit intention of bombing Japanese cities because 422 00:25:26,240 --> 00:25:29,440 Speaker 1: they were so flammable. I mean, it was a US 423 00:25:29,680 --> 00:25:33,439 Speaker 1: Army project to find the most effective incendiary we could 424 00:25:33,800 --> 00:25:36,159 Speaker 1: and it comes out of Harvard University, a fact that 425 00:25:36,240 --> 00:25:39,360 Speaker 1: Harvard is not very eager to share with the world. 426 00:25:40,680 --> 00:25:43,440 Speaker 1: You would think, nude, sorry forgive me for this tangent. 427 00:25:44,359 --> 00:25:47,960 Speaker 1: If you go to Harvard University, you can go and 428 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,720 Speaker 1: I did this to It's still there the chemistry lab 429 00:25:52,800 --> 00:25:56,480 Speaker 1: where napalm was invented. Right. You would think, wouldn't you 430 00:25:56,920 --> 00:26:00,479 Speaker 1: that there would be a little plaque that said nineteen 431 00:26:00,560 --> 00:26:04,639 Speaker 1: forty one in this exact chemistry laboratory, one of the 432 00:26:04,680 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 1: most lethal weapons of the twentieth century was invented. And 433 00:26:07,920 --> 00:26:09,960 Speaker 1: then they can go on all they want about whether 434 00:26:10,000 --> 00:26:11,560 Speaker 1: that's a good or a bad thing. I don't really care. 435 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:14,159 Speaker 1: What I care about is Look, if you make a 436 00:26:14,200 --> 00:26:17,600 Speaker 1: list of the ten most consequential inventions to come out 437 00:26:17,600 --> 00:26:20,840 Speaker 1: of Harvard University, I'm sorry, I've looked at that list. 438 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:25,159 Speaker 1: Napalm's number one. There's no doubt about it. There is 439 00:26:25,440 --> 00:26:28,400 Speaker 1: nothing that has been invented at Harvard University that has 440 00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:30,760 Speaker 1: had a greater impact on the world than napalmb that 441 00:26:30,760 --> 00:26:34,680 Speaker 1: came out in nineteen forty one. You cannot find on 442 00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:39,560 Speaker 1: the entire campus a single mention of that fact. Where 443 00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:42,280 Speaker 1: was the first test of napalm? It was on the 444 00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,920 Speaker 1: Harvard University soccer field for getting tos sake. The whole 445 00:26:45,920 --> 00:26:50,160 Speaker 1: thing was cooked up in Cambridge. Really tell us about this? No, 446 00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,360 Speaker 1: why not? Will you join me in this crusade news 447 00:26:53,400 --> 00:26:56,720 Speaker 1: They've got to acknowledge. They're so busy acknowledging all kinds 448 00:26:56,760 --> 00:26:59,040 Speaker 1: of other things they can't get around to the big one. 449 00:26:59,840 --> 00:27:03,479 Speaker 1: I suspect, given the current psychology and culture of Harvard, 450 00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:06,680 Speaker 1: that they would have a sense of guilt and humiliation. 451 00:27:07,160 --> 00:27:09,639 Speaker 1: We'll acknowledge that this is what drives me crazy, by 452 00:27:09,640 --> 00:27:13,840 Speaker 1: the way, about this moment, So acknowledge it. Just say 453 00:27:14,000 --> 00:27:16,840 Speaker 1: this was invented here, and say and we feel guilty 454 00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:20,760 Speaker 1: about it, Like that's fine at this point where we 455 00:27:20,760 --> 00:27:23,080 Speaker 1: feel like the only time we can acknowledge our history 456 00:27:23,119 --> 00:27:26,360 Speaker 1: is when we're proud of it. Why it's fine. We're 457 00:27:26,359 --> 00:27:30,000 Speaker 1: intelligent human beings. Make the plaque two thousand words long 458 00:27:30,400 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: and tell me the whole story. I did not know 459 00:27:32,720 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: that story. So I'm still sitting here absorbing it, and 460 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: I can't wait till I see some friends from Harvard. 461 00:27:38,840 --> 00:27:41,320 Speaker 1: It's really good. And in fact, we have somebody who 462 00:27:41,359 --> 00:27:43,359 Speaker 1: was working with us right now who is going to 463 00:27:43,400 --> 00:27:46,719 Speaker 1: Harvard this fall. Maybe we'll make her assignment to sneak 464 00:27:46,760 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: into that lab and post something up there, in which 465 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:53,840 Speaker 1: case we're going to put your name on it, Malcolm Glad. 466 00:27:53,840 --> 00:28:00,880 Speaker 1: We wanted you to know absolutely yeah, that's the sort 467 00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: of thing which could lead them to either tear the 468 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,600 Speaker 1: building down as well as blow up the soccer field 469 00:28:06,359 --> 00:28:09,320 Speaker 1: and deny that it ever happened. But nobody. Here's the 470 00:28:09,359 --> 00:28:12,800 Speaker 1: thing that this is exactly the kind of moment when 471 00:28:13,760 --> 00:28:16,960 Speaker 1: history is really really important, and that is an opportunity 472 00:28:17,040 --> 00:28:20,240 Speaker 1: to tell people in a really interesting way about a 473 00:28:20,240 --> 00:28:24,720 Speaker 1: complicated moment in our country's history. And if you're a university, 474 00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:28,640 Speaker 1: that's your job, right, that's your job. Well, you would 475 00:28:28,680 --> 00:28:30,760 Speaker 1: think we live in an eraw and it may not 476 00:28:30,840 --> 00:28:34,520 Speaker 1: be their job at least as they define themselves. But 477 00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,800 Speaker 1: you know, youre is a different, really important point because 478 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: you can go across the street to the Lincoln Labs 479 00:28:40,360 --> 00:28:43,880 Speaker 1: at MT. The number of things we invented in that 480 00:28:43,960 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: small area that had a direct impact, including proximity fuses, 481 00:28:50,000 --> 00:28:52,840 Speaker 1: things that really decisively affected the war, and whole range 482 00:28:52,840 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: of things. It's kind of astonishing, And you know, most 483 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:59,480 Speaker 1: Americans have never heard of those kind of contributions. But 484 00:28:59,600 --> 00:29:02,760 Speaker 1: in some ways, World War Two was the first time 485 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 1: that science really was integral to the whole war at 486 00:29:06,600 --> 00:29:10,760 Speaker 1: every level, and that without the science and engineering, you'd 487 00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:31,040 Speaker 1: maybe you've been pushed back into World War One. But 488 00:29:31,160 --> 00:29:33,080 Speaker 1: let me ask you a moral question for a second. 489 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:35,600 Speaker 1: I'm a big fan of LeMay, and I'm a big 490 00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,000 Speaker 1: fan of the US Air Force. But in the end, 491 00:29:40,040 --> 00:29:43,520 Speaker 1: the ability to deliver violence from the air, if you 492 00:29:43,640 --> 00:29:47,640 Speaker 1: count civilian lives as well as military lives, it did 493 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: not exactly end up saving lives. It just transferred the 494 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,440 Speaker 1: point at which they died, and so you ended up 495 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,840 Speaker 1: with these extraordinary bomber campaigns we in the British against 496 00:29:57,880 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: the Germans, and then US against the jail Japanese. And 497 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: of course, as you pointed out, you'd also had the 498 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:07,480 Speaker 1: Germans and the Italians in Spain, you'd had the Japanese 499 00:30:07,480 --> 00:30:11,800 Speaker 1: and China. But air power in that sense, it seems 500 00:30:11,800 --> 00:30:17,360 Speaker 1: to me, didn't in fact dramatically improve things until they 501 00:30:17,440 --> 00:30:21,520 Speaker 1: got genuine precision capabilities, which really only occurs towards the 502 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:24,320 Speaker 1: very end of the Vietnam War. Because you report accurately 503 00:30:24,640 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 1: that we had just terrible levels of accuracy in World 504 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,360 Speaker 1: War two, I mean, the degree to which these precision 505 00:30:31,360 --> 00:30:35,840 Speaker 1: bombers weren't very precise as astonishing. But by the time 506 00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:39,640 Speaker 1: we get to the Iraq campaigns, the science is caught 507 00:30:39,720 --> 00:30:44,400 Speaker 1: up with the requirements, and one B two today is 508 00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:49,520 Speaker 1: more effective than an entire wing of B seventeens because 509 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,000 Speaker 1: it can deliver such extraordinarily precise weapons, and in that 510 00:30:55,080 --> 00:30:58,000 Speaker 1: sense it may save lives over the long run. But 511 00:30:58,760 --> 00:31:01,880 Speaker 1: in a way, the science and the technology finally caught 512 00:31:02,000 --> 00:31:04,680 Speaker 1: up with the dreams of the people in the nineteen 513 00:31:04,720 --> 00:31:08,080 Speaker 1: thirties and the dreams that do heyhead and writing about 514 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:11,200 Speaker 1: the potential of the bomber to save lives by ending 515 00:31:11,240 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: the kind of war we'd foughten in World War One. 516 00:31:15,360 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: I'm curious, abhoy, you're taken. Do you think that precision 517 00:31:19,760 --> 00:31:23,760 Speaker 1: bombing in the genuine sense of truly being precise, will 518 00:31:23,800 --> 00:31:29,400 Speaker 1: in fact leverage violence more efficiently and more humanely, in 519 00:31:29,520 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: that fewer civilians will die of collateral damage? Or do 520 00:31:33,000 --> 00:31:36,160 Speaker 1: you think it'll just extend the capacity of people to 521 00:31:36,360 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: endure until they're defeated beyond the ability to resist. Yeah, 522 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,760 Speaker 1: I mean that is the million dollar question. I think 523 00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:47,680 Speaker 1: I'm an optimist on this, I think that we're better 524 00:31:47,720 --> 00:31:51,880 Speaker 1: off on balance, that precision allows us. And I say 525 00:31:51,880 --> 00:31:54,000 Speaker 1: that only because when I look at the Second World 526 00:31:54,000 --> 00:31:58,480 Speaker 1: War and I see the extent of civilian losses in 527 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:04,760 Speaker 1: bombing campaigns, is in respect staggering. I mean, probably close 528 00:32:04,800 --> 00:32:08,080 Speaker 1: to a million Japanese civilians in summer forty five, the 529 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:13,800 Speaker 1: number of Germans killed in Allied bombing campaigns, particularly the British. 530 00:32:14,080 --> 00:32:16,240 Speaker 1: I did not come away from this book with a 531 00:32:16,280 --> 00:32:20,240 Speaker 1: renewed appreciation for British bombing tactics. At the end of 532 00:32:20,240 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: the book, I talked to this historian at the Army 533 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 1: War College and she was saying that, you know, you 534 00:32:24,880 --> 00:32:29,360 Speaker 1: have an obligation as a military commander to resort to 535 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:37,360 Speaker 1: extreme force surveillance only after all other avenues are exhausted, 536 00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,400 Speaker 1: only when you have no other choice. What she said 537 00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:42,480 Speaker 1: that what she says I always teach my students, the 538 00:32:42,760 --> 00:32:46,040 Speaker 1: Army officers of tomorrow. She says, you have an obligation 539 00:32:46,080 --> 00:32:52,200 Speaker 1: to work through all of your more ethically acceptable alternatives first. 540 00:32:52,640 --> 00:32:56,280 Speaker 1: So she's not saying it is wrong to do is 541 00:32:56,360 --> 00:33:00,080 Speaker 1: limited over Japan. What she's saying is it's wrong to 542 00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:03,520 Speaker 1: do that without consideration of other options first. And I 543 00:33:03,520 --> 00:33:06,800 Speaker 1: thought that was extremely wise. So what I would say 544 00:33:06,920 --> 00:33:09,959 Speaker 1: is the new year of precision bombing that we have 545 00:33:10,080 --> 00:33:14,600 Speaker 1: today allows us to do is to pursue more alternative 546 00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 1: options before we take the big step that I like. 547 00:33:18,720 --> 00:33:21,960 Speaker 1: I think the more tools we can give military leadership, 548 00:33:22,440 --> 00:33:25,680 Speaker 1: the more capable they will be of fighting a more 549 00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:29,080 Speaker 1: acceptable kind of war. I don't think there's any interesting 550 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,080 Speaker 1: is an acceptable war, but a more acceptable kind of war. 551 00:33:32,480 --> 00:33:35,120 Speaker 1: And like I said, when I met with their force leadership, 552 00:33:36,240 --> 00:33:40,640 Speaker 1: the thing that really struck me was how these people 553 00:33:40,720 --> 00:33:44,680 Speaker 1: are intellectually serious people Today. When you have some trigger 554 00:33:44,720 --> 00:33:49,560 Speaker 1: happy warrior, the helm of military service is long, long, long, 555 00:33:49,640 --> 00:33:52,680 Speaker 1: long over. They are fully aware of what they can 556 00:33:52,760 --> 00:33:56,120 Speaker 1: and should not do. So I found the process of 557 00:33:56,160 --> 00:33:59,040 Speaker 1: getting involved in writing this book to be tremendously reassuring 558 00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:02,280 Speaker 1: about altar power in twenty first century. You know, I 559 00:34:02,320 --> 00:34:04,200 Speaker 1: want to take you back to a passing comment you 560 00:34:04,280 --> 00:34:07,920 Speaker 1: made that you weren't exactly enthusiastic about the Royal Air 561 00:34:07,960 --> 00:34:11,359 Speaker 1: Forces bomber campaign. I want to ask you two sort 562 00:34:11,400 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 1: of technical questions. One, to what extent do you think 563 00:34:14,480 --> 00:34:17,319 Speaker 1: the fact that we had the Norden bomb site, so 564 00:34:17,360 --> 00:34:21,760 Speaker 1: we at least had some hope of hitting targets. Change 565 00:34:21,880 --> 00:34:25,360 Speaker 1: our attitude towards the campaign where the British did not 566 00:34:25,520 --> 00:34:28,920 Speaker 1: have any device like that, and literally they went to 567 00:34:29,040 --> 00:34:32,400 Speaker 1: bombinghole cities because they couldn't hit anything. I mean, if 568 00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:33,799 Speaker 1: they're going to go do it, they had to go 569 00:34:33,840 --> 00:34:36,719 Speaker 1: do it almost on a city killing basis, because they 570 00:34:36,719 --> 00:34:40,960 Speaker 1: couldn't guarantee killing a factory. Yeah, I think it may 571 00:34:40,960 --> 00:34:42,239 Speaker 1: made it a little bit of a difference in the 572 00:34:42,280 --> 00:34:45,840 Speaker 1: use of initial sort of motivations to do bombing. My 573 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 1: real issue with Bomber Harris, the head of the British 574 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:52,560 Speaker 1: Bomber Command, was it's a point that Ira Acre, who 575 00:34:52,640 --> 00:34:55,080 Speaker 1: was the head of the Army Air Corps eight Air 576 00:34:55,120 --> 00:35:00,880 Speaker 1: Force in Europe, made to Bomber Harris, which was the 577 00:35:00,880 --> 00:35:07,120 Speaker 1: theory under which the British area bombing was operating, was false. 578 00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:09,799 Speaker 1: The idea that the British had was that if I 579 00:35:09,880 --> 00:35:14,480 Speaker 1: bomb my enemy's civilian population in sufficient numbers, their morale 580 00:35:14,520 --> 00:35:17,200 Speaker 1: will crack and I'll win the war. That way, nobody 581 00:35:17,239 --> 00:35:20,879 Speaker 1: will craw out of their homes, they'll sue for piece. Well, 582 00:35:20,880 --> 00:35:25,200 Speaker 1: the Germans tried that very strategy during the Blitz, right 583 00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,799 Speaker 1: they bombed the Bejesus out of London on the expectation 584 00:35:30,200 --> 00:35:32,880 Speaker 1: that Londoners would panic and the British would give up. 585 00:35:33,600 --> 00:35:37,239 Speaker 1: Is that what happened. No, the exact opposite happened. The 586 00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:39,759 Speaker 1: English shrugged it off, went about their business and came 587 00:35:39,760 --> 00:35:43,600 Speaker 1: back stronger than ever. So Bomber Harris has empirical evidence 588 00:35:43,719 --> 00:35:47,240 Speaker 1: in his own backyard of the futility of morale bombing. 589 00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,279 Speaker 1: It didn't work on them. So Ira Acre turns to 590 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,279 Speaker 1: him at one point and says, you know, why are 591 00:35:53,280 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: you pursuing a strategy against the Germans. It did not 592 00:35:55,560 --> 00:35:59,600 Speaker 1: work against you, And Bomber Harris's response is, well, the 593 00:35:59,640 --> 00:36:05,160 Speaker 1: British are different, dude. I'm sorry, that's nonsense. Bomber Harris is. 594 00:36:05,480 --> 00:36:07,239 Speaker 1: I call him a psychopath in the book, and I 595 00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:11,439 Speaker 1: think that is a considered opinion. He's a psychopath. If 596 00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:13,200 Speaker 1: he had looked at the evidence, he would have realized. 597 00:36:13,719 --> 00:36:16,160 Speaker 1: You know this, The bombing survey done after the war 598 00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:20,680 Speaker 1: by the Air Force confirms in large part the futility 599 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 1: of British morale bombing drink in the Second World War. 600 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,520 Speaker 1: It didn't work. It did not cause German morale to crumble. 601 00:36:27,840 --> 00:36:34,160 Speaker 1: We squandered countless lives, countless planes, wasted countless resources in 602 00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,720 Speaker 1: pursuit of a murderous policy over Germany that had no 603 00:36:38,120 --> 00:36:40,480 Speaker 1: real impact on the outcome of the war. There's some 604 00:36:40,560 --> 00:36:44,239 Speaker 1: really wonderful stuff by some British military strategists after the war, 605 00:36:44,760 --> 00:36:48,880 Speaker 1: including Blackett, who won the Nobel Prize physicist who served 606 00:36:48,920 --> 00:36:51,440 Speaker 1: in the War Office, who made a calculation about how 607 00:36:51,520 --> 00:36:54,960 Speaker 1: much earlier the Second World War would have ended if 608 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:57,920 Speaker 1: the RAF had not squandered so many resources in these 609 00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:02,759 Speaker 1: fruitless bombing campaigns that I found really persuasive. I think 610 00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,920 Speaker 1: the military leadership in the US Army Air Corps was 611 00:37:07,120 --> 00:37:10,760 Speaker 1: far superior to that of the RAF. Harris doesn't belong 612 00:37:10,800 --> 00:37:13,680 Speaker 1: on the same page as Curtis LeMay. Like I said, 613 00:37:13,840 --> 00:37:17,360 Speaker 1: did not come away and breast by it. And I'm English, 614 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:21,960 Speaker 1: I was born in England. These are my people. Yeah, well, 615 00:37:22,000 --> 00:37:24,400 Speaker 1: we're not going to hold you to that. You're allowed 616 00:37:24,400 --> 00:37:28,399 Speaker 1: to render independent judgment, whatever your nationality. Let me ask 617 00:37:28,440 --> 00:37:32,040 Speaker 1: you if you don't mind, because you're so interesting and 618 00:37:32,080 --> 00:37:35,600 Speaker 1: so insightful, what do you have coming up next? My 619 00:37:35,640 --> 00:37:37,560 Speaker 1: next book is also going to be an AUDI book. First, 620 00:37:37,840 --> 00:37:40,480 Speaker 1: I want to do something on policing and I want 621 00:37:40,520 --> 00:37:43,360 Speaker 1: to do something on the LAPD because I want to 622 00:37:43,440 --> 00:37:47,920 Speaker 1: understand the LAPD was the great, kind of shining example 623 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:52,759 Speaker 1: of a modern American police department, and they got some 624 00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,600 Speaker 1: things very right and something's very wrong, and I want 625 00:37:56,640 --> 00:37:59,799 Speaker 1: to understand that process. And I think it would be 626 00:37:59,840 --> 00:38:02,880 Speaker 1: really instructive because right now, you know, obviously that topic 627 00:38:02,960 --> 00:38:04,839 Speaker 1: is in the air. We think we need to do 628 00:38:04,920 --> 00:38:07,800 Speaker 1: something to reform the way policing happens in this country. 629 00:38:08,160 --> 00:38:10,800 Speaker 1: So I thought, let's do a kind of case study 630 00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:13,920 Speaker 1: of the most storied of all American police departments and 631 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:16,560 Speaker 1: try and answer that question. If you make a list 632 00:38:16,560 --> 00:38:19,680 Speaker 1: of the ten greatest police chiefs in America in the 633 00:38:19,680 --> 00:38:24,399 Speaker 1: twentieth century, three of them are LPD police chiefs. These 634 00:38:24,400 --> 00:38:28,200 Speaker 1: guys were the white Knights of American policing for seventy 635 00:38:28,200 --> 00:38:33,680 Speaker 1: five years until Watts and then Rodney King complicates their heritage. 636 00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:36,080 Speaker 1: So I'm now doing the same thing I did with Barramafi. 637 00:38:36,120 --> 00:38:39,399 Speaker 1: I'm digging through the archives and trying to bring these 638 00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:42,319 Speaker 1: men to life. And they are a fascinating group of men. 639 00:38:43,040 --> 00:38:47,840 Speaker 1: I'm fascinated with the remarkable achievements in New York City, 640 00:38:47,920 --> 00:38:49,799 Speaker 1: where you can almost draw a line in the day 641 00:38:49,840 --> 00:38:54,759 Speaker 1: that Giuliani walks in, the system shifts and we're now 642 00:38:54,800 --> 00:38:58,240 Speaker 1: shifting back to a pre Julianney model, And they've doubled 643 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,160 Speaker 1: the murder rate in the last year. And it's kind 644 00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:04,160 Speaker 1: of like you're quite earlier about systems that don't want 645 00:39:04,200 --> 00:39:07,200 Speaker 1: to learn. We have a culture that says, yeah, that's 646 00:39:07,239 --> 00:39:11,560 Speaker 1: factually true, but irrelevant, Yeah, because it doesn't meet our 647 00:39:11,560 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: current needs. You know, the last year is tricky because 648 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,080 Speaker 1: of COVID, and we see a lot of these trends 649 00:39:17,120 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: across the country. It's really hard to tease out what's 650 00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,800 Speaker 1: going on here. In my last book talking to Strangers, 651 00:39:22,800 --> 00:39:25,160 Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time talking about policing. I 652 00:39:25,280 --> 00:39:32,120 Speaker 1: got optimistic, not pessimistic. There is some really sophisticated currents 653 00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,160 Speaker 1: in criminology right now about how to build better police 654 00:39:36,160 --> 00:39:39,040 Speaker 1: departments and do more effective policing. But you know this, 655 00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 1: there's always a gap between the innovation and its implementation, 656 00:39:43,600 --> 00:39:45,320 Speaker 1: and I think we maybe are just in one of 657 00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:49,480 Speaker 1: those gaps. But we're getting across the board. We have 658 00:39:49,560 --> 00:39:53,320 Speaker 1: gotten a lot smarter in how we do this. And also, 659 00:39:54,080 --> 00:39:56,520 Speaker 1: you know, we started this conversation talking about you have 660 00:39:56,560 --> 00:40:00,279 Speaker 1: a problem when there's too big of a gap between crises. Right, 661 00:40:00,600 --> 00:40:04,600 Speaker 1: there's not a big gap between crisis. Bill Bratton, probably 662 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:06,759 Speaker 1: the greatest police chief of the last fifty years in 663 00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:08,880 Speaker 1: this country, who did New York and then did LA 664 00:40:09,440 --> 00:40:12,960 Speaker 1: really brought the LAPD back to life. Brand still around. 665 00:40:13,600 --> 00:40:15,279 Speaker 1: You know, when the Brits had that crime problem a 666 00:40:15,280 --> 00:40:17,000 Speaker 1: couple years ago, they tried to hire Bratton, which I 667 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: thought was fantastic. So it's like, if we have the 668 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:21,279 Speaker 1: old heads, you know, you can go and talk to 669 00:40:21,320 --> 00:40:25,040 Speaker 1: Bill Bratton. He'll tell you how it's done. So I'm optimistic. 670 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,360 Speaker 1: You know, it's been a very very difficult last eighteen months. 671 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,239 Speaker 1: I think we can build this back up. Oh huge 672 00:40:31,239 --> 00:40:34,280 Speaker 1: fan of Bratton, and frankly I agree with you. He's 673 00:40:34,280 --> 00:40:37,560 Speaker 1: probably the greatest police chief of the last half century. 674 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:39,880 Speaker 1: When I look at it, it's very similar to the 675 00:40:39,960 --> 00:40:42,560 Speaker 1: dynamic I was describing in the Barra Mafia, which is 676 00:40:43,320 --> 00:40:47,160 Speaker 1: you really get an appreciation for how one very effective 677 00:40:47,160 --> 00:40:52,600 Speaker 1: individual can have a hugely disproportionate effect on their worlds. 678 00:40:53,160 --> 00:40:57,200 Speaker 1: You know, if you sub out Curtis LeMay, where they 679 00:40:57,239 --> 00:41:01,520 Speaker 1: just a kind of ordinary average commander who knows what 680 00:41:01,640 --> 00:41:04,399 Speaker 1: the last twelve months of the Second World War looked 681 00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:06,480 Speaker 1: like what could have gone in done it to forty seven? 682 00:41:06,520 --> 00:41:08,280 Speaker 1: I don't know. I mean, he had such a profound 683 00:41:08,320 --> 00:41:10,799 Speaker 1: effect on the European bombing campaign. Who knows how much 684 00:41:10,840 --> 00:41:13,440 Speaker 1: longer that would have happened. Same thing with Branton, you 685 00:41:13,560 --> 00:41:17,240 Speaker 1: sub out Bratton. You're absolutely right if instead of Branton 686 00:41:17,320 --> 00:41:20,880 Speaker 1: taking over the NYPD in that crucial period in the nineties, 687 00:41:21,120 --> 00:41:24,480 Speaker 1: you get just an ordinary business as usual guy. New 688 00:41:24,560 --> 00:41:31,160 Speaker 1: York City is not just slightly different. It's unrecognizable today, unrecognizable. 689 00:41:31,640 --> 00:41:34,440 Speaker 1: And you know, you look at these things and you say, man, 690 00:41:34,520 --> 00:41:36,600 Speaker 1: we get lucky every now and again, which makes me 691 00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:41,480 Speaker 1: really nervous because I think it's like WHOA. I was 692 00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:43,680 Speaker 1: living in New York when Bratton was there. I was like, man, 693 00:41:43,800 --> 00:41:46,840 Speaker 1: did we dodge a bullet? I mean literally dodge a 694 00:41:46,880 --> 00:41:49,360 Speaker 1: bullet if we hadn't gotten this guy. Same thing with 695 00:41:49,480 --> 00:41:52,200 Speaker 1: LeMay in the Second World War. So well, look, I 696 00:41:52,239 --> 00:41:54,799 Speaker 1: want you to know that I hope you'll come back 697 00:41:55,000 --> 00:41:58,160 Speaker 1: with your new book and we'll talk about policing. This 698 00:41:58,280 --> 00:42:00,800 Speaker 1: has but a joy for me. You're just great guest, 699 00:42:01,320 --> 00:42:05,439 Speaker 1: and I love your enthusiasm and your energy as well 700 00:42:05,440 --> 00:42:07,719 Speaker 1: as your knowledge and I'm going to assure you that 701 00:42:07,760 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: we're going to promote The Bomber Mafia. But I'm going 702 00:42:11,239 --> 00:42:13,120 Speaker 1: to thank you for taking the time. This has been 703 00:42:13,560 --> 00:42:16,680 Speaker 1: just a great conversation, wonderful. Thank you so much for 704 00:42:16,719 --> 00:42:21,319 Speaker 1: having me on. I really enjoyed it. Thank you to 705 00:42:21,400 --> 00:42:24,480 Speaker 1: my guest Malcolm Gladwell. You can find a link to 706 00:42:24,560 --> 00:42:28,279 Speaker 1: his new book The Bomber Mafia, A Dream, A Temptation 707 00:42:28,640 --> 00:42:31,400 Speaker 1: and the Longest Night of the Second World War on 708 00:42:31,520 --> 00:42:35,200 Speaker 1: our show page at newtsworld dot com. Newts World is 709 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,920 Speaker 1: produced by Gingwish three sixty and iHeartMedia. Our executive producer 710 00:42:40,000 --> 00:42:43,680 Speaker 1: is Debbie Myers, our producer is Garnsey Sloan, and our 711 00:42:43,760 --> 00:42:47,360 Speaker 1: researcher is Rachel Pearson. The artwork for the show was 712 00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,120 Speaker 1: created by Steve Penley. Special thanks to the team at 713 00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: GINGWIS three sixty. If you've been enjoying Newtsworld, I hope 714 00:42:55,000 --> 00:42:57,719 Speaker 1: you'll go to Apple Podcast and both rate us with 715 00:42:57,800 --> 00:43:01,080 Speaker 1: five stars and give us a review so others can 716 00:43:01,200 --> 00:43:04,480 Speaker 1: learn what it's all about. Right now, listeners of news 717 00:43:04,520 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: World can sign up for my three free weekly columns 718 00:43:08,280 --> 00:43:12,880 Speaker 1: at ganwage through sixty dot com slash newsletter. I'm new Gangwidge. 719 00:43:13,239 --> 00:43:14,320 Speaker 1: This is news World,