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Speaker 1: Hello, Next Picture Show listeners. Here's our friendly reminder that

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Speaker 1: if you enjoy the Next Picture Show, you'll really enjoy

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Speaker 1: Our latest bonus episode is discussion on the breaking bad

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Speaker 1: movie El Camino. To subscribe to our Patreon, please visit

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Speaker 1: patreon dot com slash Next Picture Show.

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Speaker 2: It's very difficult to keep the line between the past

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Speaker 2: and the press. You believe that someone out of the

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Speaker 2: past we can enter and take possession of a living

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Speaker 2: We may be through with the past, but the past

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Speaker 2: is not through with us.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to the Next Picture Show, a movie of the

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Speaker 1: week podcast devoted to a classic film and how it

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Speaker 1: shaped our thoughts on our recent release or, in this case,

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Speaker 1: a recent TV show.

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Speaker 2: I'm Keith Phipps here with Scott Tobias.

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Speaker 3: Tash Robinson and Genevieve Caaski.

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Speaker 1: This week we're breaking format just a little bit for

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Speaker 1: a kind of appendix to our life to outings. In

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Speaker 1: our previous two episodes, we discussed The Dark Knight and

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Speaker 1: Joker two different takes on the classic Batman villain, The Joker,

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Speaker 1: going back a bit further. It's hard to imagine either

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Speaker 1: film happening without the events that changed the comic book

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Speaker 1: world in nineteen eighty six. That year saw the publication

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Speaker 1: of Frank Miller's The Dark Knight Returns, a Batman story

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Speaker 1: set much later than usual in the superhero's life. It

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Speaker 1: also took him to much grimmer, borderline apocalyptic places, as

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Speaker 1: he faced a Gotham overrun with a new breed of criminal,

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Speaker 1: and faced unsettled business with everyone from The Joker to Superman.

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Speaker 1: That same year, DC Comics published Watchman, written by Alan

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Speaker 1: Moore with art by Dave Gibbons. Watchman takes place in

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Speaker 1: a world just off from the world we know, one

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Speaker 1: in which costume vigilantes took to the streets in the

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Speaker 1: thirties and forties, and advances in nuclear physics accidentally gave

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Speaker 1: rise to a kind of Superman, but let the world

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Speaker 1: we knew in the eighties, it was also one teetering

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Speaker 1: on the brink of nuclear annihilation. Comics had long been

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Speaker 1: taking on more mature stories when The Dark Knight Returns

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Speaker 1: and Watchmen hit stands, but a major public using superheroes,

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Speaker 1: whether Batman or the characters More and Gibbons's device for

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Speaker 1: Watchmen to tell a four grown up story attract wider

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Speaker 1: attention than say, black and white indie titles like Love

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Speaker 1: and Rockets or Cerebus. And in many ways, we're living

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Speaker 1: in the world nineteen eighty six created with superheroes serving

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Speaker 1: as a dominant form of movie entertainment and often on

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Speaker 1: television as well, which brings us to Watchman. Damon Lindelos's

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Speaker 1: continuation of More in Gibbons' graphic novel, though he prefers

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Speaker 1: the term remix. Set in an alternate version of twenty nineteen.

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Speaker 1: Like the source material, it draws on the anxieties and

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Speaker 1: political tensions of the present moment for a story set

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Speaker 1: in a world almost like ours, albeit one with a

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Speaker 1: history of costume adventures and one in which Robert Redford

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Speaker 1: is president and the world is still squiked out by

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Speaker 1: the giant squid that killed millions when it fell on Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: We're all quite taken with a series, so we decided

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Speaker 1: to devote an episode to it. You can also think

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Speaker 1: of it as a canonical version of the kind of

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Speaker 1: bonus episodes we've been doing for our Patreon backers. We'll

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Speaker 1: be right back after the break. There was a cavalry

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Speaker 1: involve shooting last night.

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Speaker 2: You're gonna give me the speech? Now? What speech? I

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Speaker 2: should calm him down and take a breath or where

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Speaker 2: it ore again? No, there's a guy in my trunk. Delightful.

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Speaker 2: Put him in the pod. You know why you're here.

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Speaker 3: Some gun kicked him like doing Put me in the trunk.

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Speaker 2: On a fucking car. What the hell that is correct?

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Speaker 2: I want my lawyer. Yeah, we don't have to do

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Speaker 2: that with terrorists. Why would they start this? Shut up again?

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Speaker 2: Maybe there was something they didn't want to found. They

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Speaker 2: had a mission sound I just forgot.

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Speaker 1: Okay, everyone, what were your thoughts when Watchman was announced?

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Speaker 1: I mean, I first thought it was going to be

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Speaker 1: a mini a miniseries adaptation of the book, and then

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Speaker 1: it wasn't, And here we have something quite different. Jennevier,

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Speaker 1: what were your thoughts when you first heard about this?

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Speaker 3: You know, it's hard to remember because I feel like

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Speaker 3: it's been kind of bouncing around for a while now.

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Speaker 3: But when I started paying attention is when I found

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Speaker 3: out about Damon Lindloff's involvement. Just based on his track

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Speaker 3: record The Leftovers in particular, that sort of peaud my

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Speaker 3: interest in terms of maybe taking a more interesting route

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Speaker 3: with an adaptation than you might expect. And then once

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Speaker 3: Regina King was announced as as the lead basically but

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Speaker 3: in a new role, you know, I was never, like

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Speaker 3: gung ho excited for this, just because I did have

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Speaker 3: that same sort of skepticism based on my memories of

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Speaker 3: the movie and based on what I know about Moore's

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Speaker 3: feelings about during revisiting Watchmen in any capacity. But you know,

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Speaker 3: as more and more details came out about the people

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Speaker 3: involved and Lindloff's approach to the material, couldn't help getting curious.

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Speaker 3: And by the time, you know, screeners arrived in my inbox,

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Speaker 3: I pounced on them, you know, with a little bit

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Speaker 3: of trepidation, but after I watched the first episode, just

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Speaker 3: couldn't wait to continue.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I'm probably am right there with you on how

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Speaker 2: I was feeling about the show. The Leftovers really brought

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Speaker 2: me quite a bit of confidence that he could do

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Speaker 2: something with this and Loss too as well. But what

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Speaker 2: was interesting to me about The Leftovers is that the

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Speaker 2: book it's based on the Tom Prada book, it's really

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Speaker 2: struck me even at the time, and I think I

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Speaker 2: reviewed it for a V Club as an idea that

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Speaker 2: was too big for its own author, you know. It

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Speaker 2: just it was just like this really juicy premise that

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Speaker 2: needed space and needed to be needed to be more

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Speaker 2: ambitious than it was. And so I don't know if

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Speaker 2: Linda Lof felt that as well or something, but it

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Speaker 2: it seemed that way watching the television show, which kept

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Speaker 2: expanding and expanding, expanding and getting deeper and uh, you know,

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Speaker 2: more emotional as it went along. So I guess my hope,

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Speaker 2: especially when I heard about the concept of this show,

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Speaker 2: was that Lindeloff would again be able to write around

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Speaker 2: the material and do something and you know, do the

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Speaker 2: world building that he does so well. Certainly these first

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Speaker 2: couple of episodes have filled me with confidence that he

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Speaker 2: can do it. Dashall. What about you?

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Speaker 4: You guys have so much more confidence in Lindeloff than

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Speaker 4: I do.

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Speaker 3: Is this because of Lost in part? I mean I

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Speaker 3: think that, like I wasn't because of Tomorrowland.

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Speaker 4: You want to just keep like listening.

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Speaker 3: It's not a spotless track record. We should like.

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Speaker 4: Does anybody want to cite World War Ze? Does anybody

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Speaker 4: want to cite cowboys and aliens.

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Speaker 3: I liked World War Z.

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Speaker 4: Okay, okay. So here's the thing. I really enjoyed watching Lost,

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Speaker 4: mostly because I only watched it on DVD, so I

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Speaker 4: was never part of the group of people who were

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Speaker 4: waiting six months for the resolution to a cliffhanger that

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Speaker 4: turned out to not be a particularly great resolution to

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Speaker 4: a cliffhanger. I watched it in a way such that

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Speaker 4: most of those cliffhangers were resolved immediately because I was

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Speaker 4: just chain smoking my way through those discs. I really

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Speaker 4: enjoyed the series a lot. There were so many and

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Speaker 4: deeply frustrating things about it. The end of Star Trek

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Speaker 4: into Darkness, I think is a tremendous cliche and very disappointing. Prometheus,

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Speaker 4: I thought, had a really good idea that when it

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Speaker 4: went to just a really bad place, I think of

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Speaker 4: Linda Loof as somebody who can't ace the ending. And

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Speaker 4: then Leftovers came along, and I thought, this is brilliant, Like,

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Speaker 4: I'm enjoying the richness of the world and these characters

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Speaker 4: so much.

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Speaker 3: It's got to be Parada.

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Speaker 4: It's got to be like Prada's influence, because, especially with

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Speaker 4: the first season which is a fairly close adaptation and

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Speaker 4: expansion of the book. So much of what's going on

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Speaker 4: there is drawn directly from it. So the fact that

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Speaker 4: the subsequent seasons were so great, I thought it's got

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Speaker 4: to be Parada's influence, Prada's involvement. So I went into

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Speaker 4: Watchmen deeply dubious and just assuming that it was going

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Speaker 4: to be like more or less a retake the early

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Speaker 4: images with all of the roar shocks just evoked so

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Speaker 4: much for me, the idea of the Joker Army and

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Speaker 4: the Batman army in Dark Knight returns, Like, none of

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Speaker 4: this seemed particularly promising, and it seemed like it was

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Speaker 4: buying really heavily into kind of a v for Vendetta.

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Speaker 4: Let's explore anonymous, but like through the roll Shock as

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Speaker 4: a hero, Like, none of what it was doing interested

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Speaker 4: in me, and very little of Lindelof's past gave me

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Speaker 4: any kind of faith that he could ace this. So,

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Speaker 4: I mean, I think it's all the more remarkable that

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Speaker 4: I love this show so much.

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Speaker 2: But can we say though, that it is going to

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Speaker 2: constantly be on the razor's edge of completely fucking up right?

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Speaker 2: I mean, like that's the thing that's been striking me

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Speaker 2: watching these episodes. It's just there are so many ways

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Speaker 2: it can go wrong at all times that it's like

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Speaker 2: it makes me nervous about the long term health of

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Speaker 2: the show. For that reason.

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Speaker 1: Two things. Note early on that we're only talking about

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Speaker 1: the first two episodes. All of us but Scott have

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Speaker 1: seen more than that, but we're not going to reference

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Speaker 1: them excepts in the Vegas possible terms. The other thing,

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Speaker 1: as Scott, I want to know, what's one instance you

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Speaker 1: would point to, is of it came really close to

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Speaker 1: messing it up?

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Speaker 2: Well, I just teetered over. It's playing with litsticks a

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Speaker 2: dynamite here in terms of the subject matter and how

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Speaker 2: it handles it. I mean, people have very strong feelings,

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Speaker 2: as they should about white supremacy and about policing, about vigilanteism,

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Speaker 2: and about you know, legacy of racism in this country.

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Speaker 2: I mean, like this hot stuff, you know, and it's

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Speaker 2: obviously referencing what's happening today. He's making a watchman that

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Speaker 2: is relevant to the issues of today, as the Givens

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Speaker 2: and More book was relevant to the issues of that day.

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Speaker 2: So it's like, it's just I don't know if I

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Speaker 2: can cite any single moment, but I think it.

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Speaker 3: I mean, I can, I can cite one.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 3: In the first episode, you know, we open with that

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Speaker 3: in incredible and very unusual Tulsa massacre sequence, which is

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Speaker 3: a very audacious way to start the series, and then

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Speaker 3: signals you know that it's going to be something different.

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Speaker 3: And then from there we jump into another black man

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Speaker 3: being shot, but he's a cop, and shortly after that

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Speaker 3: we see like an incredible incident of police inflicting violence

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Speaker 3: on someone, you know, a police officer of color. So

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Speaker 3: just in the first like half of that episode, it

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Speaker 3: becomes very clear that this is like not going to

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Speaker 3: be taking a didactic approach to its racial politics. You know,

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Speaker 3: it's really muddying the waters, and intentionally so. And when

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Speaker 3: I realized that, I was like, oh, this is a

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Speaker 3: show that people are not going to stop arguing about.

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Speaker 3: And I think for the first time in a long time,

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Speaker 3: that made me excited rather than absolutely dreading it.

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Speaker 4: I'll put a completely different spin on the same idea.

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Speaker 4: The sequence where Regina King is introducing herself on career day,

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Speaker 4: like in a classroom and she cracks a bunch of

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Speaker 4: eggs into a blok and breaks a few of them,

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Speaker 4: and it forms into a smiley face with a bloody

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Speaker 4: spot in the top of the left eyeball, which is

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Speaker 4: a direct reference to the comedian's bloody badge, which is

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Speaker 4: one of the iconic repeating images of Alan Moore's Watchman comic.

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Speaker 4: That moment is goofy like it's referential. It's an easter

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Speaker 4: egg ye inside jokey. Hey, guys, you totally recognize this

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Speaker 4: image and knows what's going on kind of thing that

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Speaker 4: doesn't have a ton of meaning in the moment, and

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Speaker 4: it's just sort of it doesn't. It doesn't read as

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Speaker 4: particularly real. Just the way she's mixing up the eggs

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Speaker 4: doesn't seem like anything a baker would do. It's entirely

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Speaker 4: for the brand of audience that's watching the MCU movies

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Speaker 4: going on. I recognize this like obscure character, this reference

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Speaker 4: to an obscure thing, And in that moment, it stops

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Speaker 4: being this drama about racism and police abuse and the

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Speaker 4: complicated mechanics of superhero stories as escapism versus superhero stories

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Speaker 4: as stories about fascism, and it turns into just a

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Speaker 4: goofy reference.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, well, what it is, what it could

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Speaker 2: be in that respect. Is Fargo, the TV show Fargo,

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Speaker 2: which does exactly that, which is which is absolutely loaded

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Speaker 2: with Easter eggs and references to Coen Brothers movies, and

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Speaker 2: yet it's its own.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I gotta watch that show again.

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Speaker 2: That all the references, all the references to the Coen

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Speaker 2: Brothers and the TV show Fargo, Yes, there are a few.

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Speaker 2: I mean that's a different kind of trouble. I think

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Speaker 2: it's a less controversial type of thing that's almost like, well,

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Speaker 2: you're just doing a bad job. And this is kind

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Speaker 2: of hackneyed in a way. I don't want to side.

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Speaker 1: I don't know.

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Speaker 2: I like Fargo, but I'm saying like, in terms of

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Speaker 2: like how things can go wrong, I'm talking much more

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Speaker 2: about more of a socio political front is the thing

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Speaker 2: that is where things could go a little off the rails.

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Speaker 2: But as Genevie Genevieve signed a really good example, I

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Speaker 2: think that the show really upends your expectations and certain

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Speaker 2: dynamics that you're familiar with, our racial dynamics are turned

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Speaker 2: on their head. And I mean you really that's a

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Speaker 2: very very risky thing to do. And I and again,

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Speaker 2: the show is sort of pulling it off so far. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: I agree.

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Speaker 1: And the politics of this are are slippery and kind

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Speaker 1: of a MorphOS in some ways where you do get

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Speaker 1: the futures liberals want, in some ways where there's there

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Speaker 1: have been reparations and then there's more awareness of the

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Speaker 1: past and injustice. But it has created its own discontents

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Speaker 1: as well. And while there's no way this this is

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Speaker 1: a show that says white supremacists have a point, it's

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Speaker 1: not saying that at all, but you can see where

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Speaker 1: it hasn't been necessarily perfectly executed the plans of President Redford,

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Speaker 1: it's created resentment in some pockets.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean Nixonville in particular, right.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, the Nixonville, which so that's kind of a fast.

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Speaker 2: Nation Ville is a trailer park that is that is

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Speaker 2: extremely run down and also filled with you know, the

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Speaker 2: types of characters who would join the white supremacist group.

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Speaker 1: Have embraced Nixon is a symbol of a of a

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Speaker 1: better time past and and you know, you know a

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Speaker 1: way too, you know, inn embodying other grievances to what happened.

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Speaker 2: But I mean they're also you know, they don't have

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Speaker 2: a lot of money.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, Yeah, And then and then the second episode, we

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Speaker 3: see an absolutely brutal police raid of a Nixonville that

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Speaker 3: we know from Angela's perspective because no one else knows,

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Speaker 3: but we know that she knows who actually killed the

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Speaker 3: chief and no one else does it. At this point,

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Speaker 3: she though, she confessed, she has a better idea than

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Speaker 3: anyone else does, and she has a better idea that

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Speaker 3: anyone else does that this this raid is you know,

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Speaker 3: perhaps unfounded, uh and certainly over the top. And yet

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Speaker 3: she takes her anger out, you know, very violently on

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Speaker 3: someone in that moment. And yes, this is like an

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Speaker 3: enclave of white supremacy, but we're also seeing just horrifying,

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Speaker 3: you know, abuse of police power in this moment. So

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Speaker 3: it just again it completely sort of muddies the water,

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Speaker 3: muddles the allegory that's happening here in a fascinating and

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Speaker 3: kind of uncomfortable way.

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Speaker 1: I like King's performance in that a lot too, because

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Speaker 1: it's very much she very much conveys that that Angela

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Speaker 1: has seen this kind of nonsense before and doesn't want

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Speaker 1: to see it again. But you know, if it's the

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Speaker 1: way things have to go, it's the way things have

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Speaker 1: to go.

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Speaker 2: Well, and then the episode is so clever too in

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Speaker 2: the way. Well, first of all, I mean we were

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Speaker 2: talking beforehand. I'm sure about this, and I guess we

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Speaker 2: should talk about it on the actual podcast. Is that,

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Speaker 2: you know, it was really funny to me to see

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Speaker 2: a lot of like the immediate takes to the first

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Speaker 2: episode of Watchmen, circulated to it in other places, be

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Speaker 2: utterly up ended by at the second episode, and one

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Speaker 2: of them was, like, one of them was a concern

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Speaker 2: that Regina King's character would not be in the tradition

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Speaker 2: of other you know, morally ambiguous heroes or anti heroes

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Speaker 2: or what have you, from the graphic novel, that we

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Speaker 2: were just going to be rooting for her, And and

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Speaker 2: here we get an episode in which she pounds the

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Speaker 2: guy's face into the pavement over and over and over again.

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Speaker 2: And in the same episode we see on television this

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Speaker 2: episode of American hero Story, which is kind of a

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Speaker 2: show within the show about a minimum in which he

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Speaker 2: smashes the face of somebody into the counter in exactly

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Speaker 2: the same way, with the same level of anger and brutality.

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Speaker 2: And then from we kind of out of that scene

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Speaker 2: to a monologue from Hooded Justice over a shot of

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Speaker 2: her driving, you know. So it's all these connections are

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Speaker 2: being made cinematically that I think give her complexity and

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Speaker 2: darkness and kind of and tie that character much closer

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Speaker 2: to the tradition of the book than maybe people thought

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Speaker 2: watching the first episode.

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Speaker 3: I'm glad you brought up American hero story because I

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Speaker 3: think that is one of my favorite touches. It's actually more,

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Speaker 3: it's more than a touch. As the series goes on,

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Speaker 3: I'll just say that that moment that you're talking about

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Speaker 3: Scott will have interesting echoes in later episodes, and particularly

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Speaker 3: in my favorite episode of the season so far. But

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Speaker 3: at this point in episode two, I think the American

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Speaker 3: hero story stuff is also just working kind of on

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Speaker 3: a meta level within this adaptation of a comic book,

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Speaker 3: a graphic novel if you prefer a television adaptation thereof,

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Speaker 3: and it functions as a sort of consideration of what

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Speaker 3: responsibility creators have to source material. So having that in

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Speaker 3: this series in particular, I think is a very interesting touch.

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Speaker 4: Well, it also functions as sort of a side meta

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Speaker 4: reference in that the Whole Convenience Store Robbery Vigilanteism episode

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Speaker 4: is a pretty clear mockery of Zack Snyder's adaptation of Watchmen.

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Speaker 4: It uses some of the same visual style. There's one

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Speaker 4: of the things that people most object to in Snyder's

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Speaker 4: Watchman was the scene in the alley with Dan and

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Speaker 4: Lorrie fighting, which is presented as like a pretty, you know,

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Speaker 4: four color fist fight in the original comic, but turns

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Speaker 4: into this like grotesque, like arm breaking testosterone rage spectacle

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Speaker 4: in Snyder's film. And you have somebody you have hooted

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Speaker 4: just as breaking somebody's arm, pretty much in the exact

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Speaker 4: same way, with the exact same sound effect in that

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Speaker 4: before delivering a very over the top speech. You even

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Speaker 4: have Zack Snyder's you know, signature of what he calls retimings,

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Speaker 4: where something happens very fast and then very slow and

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Speaker 4: then normal speed. I read that entire sequence as just

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Speaker 4: a flat out mockery of the movie version Watchman.

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Speaker 1: It didn't occur to me until you said it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I think you're absolutely right, and that's the worst part

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Speaker 1: of a movie that's maybe a little better than a reputation.

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Speaker 3: I also hadn't thought that, Tasha, but I think you're

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Speaker 3: spot on there. But the reference point I was seeing,

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Speaker 3: and it was American crime story. The Ryan Murphy series,

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Speaker 3: because in this world of Watchmen, like the minute Men exist,

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Speaker 3: you know, this is this is not a comic book adaptation.

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Speaker 3: This is a historical you know at adaptation.

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Speaker 1: And I think it's sorts a purpose in the world too,

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Speaker 1: where I feel like there's unlicensed visual antes are outlawed.

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Speaker 1: So I think it kind of like presents a ugly

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Speaker 1: version of vigilantes past, the discouraging of people from pursuing it,

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Speaker 1: while also satisfying TV audiences, you know, bloodlust and you know,

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Speaker 1: look for search for graphic violence.

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Speaker 2: And so on.

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Speaker 4: But on top of everything else, it's also a Sunset

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Speaker 4: Boulevard pastiche. Yeah, the whole idea of fishing somebody. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: it's everything all a want fishing somebody out of the

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Speaker 4: water while his voice over explains about his death. I

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Speaker 4: mean that's that's the beginning of Sunset Boulevard, which, of

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Speaker 4: all of the levels that we're talking about, is the

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Speaker 4: one I have the hardest time sort of fitting in,

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Speaker 4: like like figuring out where it fits into this this

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Speaker 4: fairly rich tapestry of references and in jokes. I'm not

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Speaker 4: sure why that particular framing made me laugh.

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Speaker 3: There are little glimmers of humor in this show, which

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Speaker 3: I mean, thank god, you know, I means as there

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Speaker 3: were in the comic as well. I suppose you know,

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Speaker 3: they're they're small, but they're there, you know, and they're

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Speaker 3: used judiciously and smartly, And a lot of.

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Speaker 4: The humor that we've seen so far, like some of

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Speaker 4: it in later episodes maybe gets a little darker, but

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Speaker 4: a lot of the humor that we've seen here so

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Speaker 4: far is kind of absurdist. You know, the very end

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Speaker 4: of episode two with the car whisking off into the night,

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Speaker 4: like that's a comedy moment that's so unexpected.

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Speaker 3: It's a very left mile he gives her, you know,

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Speaker 3: when he's lifted into the air like I told you

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Speaker 3: I had people coming for me.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, And it's a very leftovers kind of trick to

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Speaker 4: the metaphor gets mixed if I say it's a pulling

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Speaker 4: the rug out from under her, because it's really more

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Speaker 4: pulling the car up above her. But one thing that

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Speaker 4: as the series continues, this is something that it keeps doing,

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Speaker 4: that Lindelock keeps doing, is as soon as you think

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Speaker 4: you know what this world is or what this story is,

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Speaker 4: something really unlikely and almost absurdist will happen to kind

401
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Speaker 4: of remind you that that is, you don't know what

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Speaker 4: the rules are here, that this is a different world

403
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Speaker 4: than the one you're used to and it's operating on

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Speaker 4: subtly different rules, and something really strange will happen. And

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Speaker 4: I'm not just talking about the squid rain, although the

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Speaker 4: squid rain is a really good example of Okay, we're

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Speaker 4: in a seemingly predictable domestic moment, you know, with kids

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Speaker 4: fighting in school and a dramatic moment between a mother

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Speaker 4: and child kind of trying to like work out behavioral

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Speaker 4: complex issues, and then suddenly you're dealing with disappearing squid

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Speaker 4: raining from the guy, and you're just in a completely

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Speaker 4: different setting.

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Speaker 1: My favorite touch there is when you realize that Tulsa

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Speaker 1: has its own like squid disposal trucks like dedicated to squid,

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Speaker 1: Like it happens often enough that.

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Speaker 2: You need that.

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Speaker 4: Oh yeah, and when Regina King gets out of the car,

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Speaker 4: she's got like a squid scraper. Basically, it's just it's

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Speaker 4: a horrible bizarre thing to happen, and then everybody's sort

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Speaker 4: of calm, complacent, this is a thing that happens, kind

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Speaker 4: of way of dealing with it makes it even more

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Speaker 4: horrible and wonderful and strained and creative.

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Speaker 2: And we haven't even talked about Jeremy Irons.

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Speaker 3: I was going to say, I mean, this has to

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Speaker 3: be where we talk about whatever's going on with Jeremy Irons.

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Speaker 2: At this point. At this point, I'm guessing that you

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Speaker 2: all have seen more of the show and more has

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Speaker 2: been revealed, because by episode two, it's still some very

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Speaker 2: strange and disturbing side business gets more clear, but.

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Speaker 3: It does not get less weird, but I don't know,

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Speaker 3: it gets way way weirder.

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Speaker 1: By episode two, we haven't even officially know that who

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Speaker 1: he is, although all the promotional material has revealed that

434
00:22:39,760 --> 00:22:41,720
Speaker 1: he's playing Adrian Vite.

435
00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:44,800
Speaker 4: Some of the early stuff just said probably who you

436
00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:46,800
Speaker 4: think he is, which I found hilarious.

437
00:22:47,240 --> 00:22:49,240
Speaker 3: I actually spent a lot of time trying to fact

438
00:22:49,359 --> 00:22:53,359
Speaker 3: check this semi recently, and I don't think HBO or

439
00:22:53,560 --> 00:22:56,560
Speaker 3: Linda Lof ever actually confirm that. I think it was

440
00:22:56,640 --> 00:23:00,600
Speaker 3: basically fans put it together based on trailer, and it

441
00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:03,320
Speaker 3: was never They were never told otherwise.

442
00:23:02,960 --> 00:23:04,800
Speaker 2: Where was he left after the book?

443
00:23:04,880 --> 00:23:07,080
Speaker 1: Though he in the book, he's and if you read

444
00:23:07,119 --> 00:23:12,760
Speaker 1: a supplemental material that was published. But he's uh, he's

445
00:23:12,800 --> 00:23:14,439
Speaker 1: on top of the world. He still has got his empire.

446
00:23:14,880 --> 00:23:17,560
Speaker 1: No one knows he's responsible for the squid attack.

447
00:23:17,400 --> 00:23:19,520
Speaker 2: And people would be upset if they knew about the

448
00:23:19,520 --> 00:23:21,439
Speaker 2: squid attack. I think something.

449
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:24,320
Speaker 4: Yeah, well, after he completes his huge plan, the book

450
00:23:24,400 --> 00:23:26,600
Speaker 4: is done with him at that point. It's really more

451
00:23:26,640 --> 00:23:29,720
Speaker 4: about how other people react to to what he did.

452
00:23:29,920 --> 00:23:32,919
Speaker 2: It's it's but his interest in science has continued at

453
00:23:32,960 --> 00:23:33,560
Speaker 2: the top of the show.

454
00:23:34,320 --> 00:23:37,560
Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean, really this doesn't you know, no spoilers,

455
00:23:37,600 --> 00:23:39,920
Speaker 1: but does this doesn't really change it does seem like

456
00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:42,840
Speaker 1: this is a different show. I mean it's very much

457
00:23:42,880 --> 00:23:44,440
Speaker 1: and tonally and keep him with the rest of the show,

458
00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:45,840
Speaker 1: and we know that he's connected to the rest of

459
00:23:45,880 --> 00:23:48,640
Speaker 1: the universe. And in episode two he does he stages

460
00:23:48,680 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: the whole Doctor Manhattan origin story, but it's not clear

461
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:55,200
Speaker 1: how it's going to play into the other narrative, the

462
00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:56,680
Speaker 1: rest of the narrative of the show.

463
00:23:57,000 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean my first to recaps the show, I

464
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:03,720
Speaker 2: mean that all that stuff is in Stray Observations Land,

465
00:24:03,920 --> 00:24:06,440
Speaker 2: all the iron stuff, because it's like, I don't know,

466
00:24:06,720 --> 00:24:09,240
Speaker 2: I mean, this is like it is a a weird

467
00:24:09,320 --> 00:24:11,960
Speaker 2: little show outside of the flow of the rest of

468
00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:12,280
Speaker 2: the Thay.

469
00:24:12,400 --> 00:24:15,280
Speaker 3: It doesn't create it though, I mean, I just having

470
00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:15,960
Speaker 3: so much fun.

471
00:24:16,560 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 4: Yea is it's it's whimsical. It's just a really disturbing

472
00:24:21,080 --> 00:24:21,800
Speaker 4: form of whimsy.

473
00:24:22,080 --> 00:24:22,280
Speaker 2: Yeah.

474
00:24:22,680 --> 00:24:25,560
Speaker 1: I never understood the cake he's eating. It's a honeycomb cake.

475
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:27,800
Speaker 1: It's a cake made out of honeycomb. Honeycomb.

476
00:24:27,840 --> 00:24:30,640
Speaker 4: I've never you know, he the first time we see

477
00:24:30,720 --> 00:24:32,600
Speaker 4: him eat one of those cakes, he seems to take

478
00:24:32,640 --> 00:24:35,760
Speaker 4: a bite and strongly dislike it. Yeah, and I like,

479
00:24:35,840 --> 00:24:38,360
Speaker 4: I got the impression that they hadn't made it particularly well.

480
00:24:39,359 --> 00:24:43,639
Speaker 4: We keep seeing those cakes subsequently, and my impression was like,

481
00:24:43,720 --> 00:24:45,600
Speaker 4: maybe it's not actually a cake. It looks like it's

482
00:24:45,640 --> 00:24:48,640
Speaker 4: made out of clay. But then eventually, I don't even

483
00:24:48,640 --> 00:24:50,679
Speaker 4: know which episode this happens in, eventually we see him

484
00:24:50,680 --> 00:24:53,119
Speaker 4: eating a slice of it, so it's presumably actually cake,

485
00:24:53,640 --> 00:24:55,720
Speaker 4: and we don't seem to see him eating anything else.

486
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:01,560
Speaker 2: We don't know what I can one spoiler, We don't know.

487
00:25:01,680 --> 00:25:02,200
Speaker 2: We still know.

488
00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:04,880
Speaker 4: Yeah, there's a lot of those too.

489
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:07,560
Speaker 1: A lot of unanswered questions and some that are not

490
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:08,680
Speaker 1: answered in subsequent apps.

491
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:11,080
Speaker 4: I think the horseshoe. The horseshoe very much seems to

492
00:25:11,240 --> 00:25:13,639
Speaker 4: imply that I think it's meant to be an early

493
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:17,480
Speaker 4: clue that his servants are not exactly normal people, and

494
00:25:17,720 --> 00:25:20,040
Speaker 4: it seems to be an indication that something has gone

495
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:23,920
Speaker 4: wrong with this particular individual, because he seems to he's

496
00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,120
Speaker 4: got enough acumen to apparently make a watch without having

497
00:25:28,160 --> 00:25:31,080
Speaker 4: been requested to make a watch, in order to try

498
00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,360
Speaker 4: to surprise and gratify his employer. But at the same

499
00:25:34,400 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 4: time he hands him a horseshoe instead of a fok. So, like,

500
00:25:37,800 --> 00:25:40,320
Speaker 4: I think, very early on, you're just supposed to twig

501
00:25:40,400 --> 00:25:42,679
Speaker 4: that there's something very unusual and bizarre.

502
00:25:42,880 --> 00:25:45,040
Speaker 1: So I think we should pull back a little. You know,

503
00:25:45,080 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: we talked about the politics of it a little bit.

504
00:25:46,640 --> 00:25:50,600
Speaker 1: We talked about its being tied to contemporary concerns and anxieties,

505
00:25:50,800 --> 00:25:52,840
Speaker 1: But what do you feel like the primary concerns of

506
00:25:53,000 --> 00:25:56,520
Speaker 1: this show are what is this Watchmen interested in talking

507
00:25:56,560 --> 00:25:59,040
Speaker 1: about the fact that it opens with the nineteen twenty

508
00:25:59,080 --> 00:26:02,800
Speaker 1: one Tulsa massacre to me was drying and unexpected, but

509
00:26:02,960 --> 00:26:05,480
Speaker 1: also two episodes and you can already tell why.

510
00:26:05,480 --> 00:26:06,240
Speaker 2: It was appropriate.

511
00:26:06,440 --> 00:26:10,080
Speaker 3: I think, as with much of Linda Law's work. Trauma

512
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:12,800
Speaker 3: is a main concern here and in the case of

513
00:26:12,920 --> 00:26:17,320
Speaker 3: this show, how it echoes through history and shapes it.

514
00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,520
Speaker 3: And I think we can take that Tulsa massacre as

515
00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,960
Speaker 3: being sort of the formative trauma of this world, this

516
00:26:26,040 --> 00:26:29,000
Speaker 3: alternate world that they're in, and you know, without getting

517
00:26:29,040 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 3: into spoilers, I think we're going to continue seeing that

518
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 3: trauma morph and shift throughout history and kind of shape

519
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:40,080
Speaker 3: these these characters that were only starting to get to know.

520
00:26:40,480 --> 00:26:42,600
Speaker 2: Well, it's a continuum too. I mean that's kind of

521
00:26:42,640 --> 00:26:45,600
Speaker 2: the power of the second episode two and the purpose

522
00:26:45,680 --> 00:26:47,880
Speaker 2: of it that is that you begin with this sequence,

523
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,760
Speaker 2: so you're whisked back to World War One of the

524
00:26:52,080 --> 00:26:56,200
Speaker 2: composition of this flyer, that's this propagandestic flyer that's that's

525
00:26:56,240 --> 00:27:00,520
Speaker 2: directed toward African American soldiers in the field, and that

526
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:03,119
Speaker 2: that is a document that survives one hundred years and

527
00:27:03,160 --> 00:27:06,680
Speaker 2: gets passed down from generation to generation. We think the

528
00:27:06,760 --> 00:27:08,800
Speaker 2: important part of the document is what's written on it

529
00:27:09,240 --> 00:27:12,600
Speaker 2: hastily during the massacre, but it's really the actual piece

530
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:17,320
Speaker 2: of paper that's important and resonant and still holds true

531
00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:19,840
Speaker 2: in present days it did in nineteen twenty one.

532
00:27:20,080 --> 00:27:22,399
Speaker 4: I feel like one of the big, big concerns of

533
00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,439
Speaker 4: this show is elitism, and it takes on a lot

534
00:27:25,520 --> 00:27:29,040
Speaker 4: of different forms, but fundamentally, what he seems to be

535
00:27:29,119 --> 00:27:32,000
Speaker 4: exploring is the break between people who think they don't

536
00:27:32,000 --> 00:27:33,720
Speaker 4: have to follow the rules and people who have to

537
00:27:33,760 --> 00:27:36,600
Speaker 4: follow the rules. And whether that comes in the form

538
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:40,639
Speaker 4: of the white people looking down on the black soldiers,

539
00:27:40,720 --> 00:27:43,800
Speaker 4: you know, spinning on them while they're you know, fighting

540
00:27:44,000 --> 00:27:47,240
Speaker 4: in this war for freedom, like looking at these documents

541
00:27:47,280 --> 00:27:51,240
Speaker 4: that basically say, why are you serving people who abuse you?

542
00:27:51,520 --> 00:27:54,119
Speaker 4: Like why are you serving in a cause under like

543
00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,080
Speaker 4: these elitist people who look down on you and treat

544
00:27:57,160 --> 00:27:59,600
Speaker 4: you badly, Or whether it takes the form of a

545
00:27:59,600 --> 00:28:03,399
Speaker 4: bunch of vigilante is like Sister Knight, who break the

546
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 4: rules and viciously abuse people, or whether it takes the

547
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:11,320
Speaker 4: form of Adrian Vitt living this bizarre life where he

548
00:28:11,600 --> 00:28:14,600
Speaker 4: literally like the lives of the people who serve him

549
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,159
Speaker 4: mean nothing to him, and he discards them with impunity.

550
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,040
Speaker 4: All of these things are different cases of somebody placing

551
00:28:21,119 --> 00:28:24,680
Speaker 4: themselves above somebody else in a way that has painful

552
00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,560
Speaker 4: and awful repercussions that they have very little feeling for

553
00:28:28,800 --> 00:28:31,920
Speaker 4: or response to. All of them are about people who

554
00:28:31,960 --> 00:28:35,239
Speaker 4: are in situations where they can afford to or are

555
00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 4: being enabled to step outside the rules and do whatever

556
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:40,280
Speaker 4: they want. And I think in the same way, Alan

557
00:28:40,320 --> 00:28:42,400
Speaker 4: Moore is kind of preoccupied with this idea of like

558
00:28:42,480 --> 00:28:46,120
Speaker 4: what it means to be a costumed vigilane. The show

559
00:28:46,200 --> 00:28:49,200
Speaker 4: here is expanding on that idea to just what it

560
00:28:49,320 --> 00:28:52,200
Speaker 4: means to be somebody who's in a position to be

561
00:28:52,520 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 4: above somebody else and enact violence, emotional, physical, you know, traumatic,

562
00:28:58,640 --> 00:29:00,840
Speaker 4: whatever it is on somebody else with impunity.

563
00:29:00,960 --> 00:29:03,760
Speaker 1: I think you're definitely honestly there, and I think as

564
00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: a show has gone on just the first two episodes,

565
00:29:05,960 --> 00:29:07,840
Speaker 1: we you see different perspectives of that. Scott, you talked

566
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 1: about the second episode up ending some of the preconceptions

567
00:29:11,240 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: of the first episode. I mean one of those things

568
00:29:13,760 --> 00:29:17,360
Speaker 1: is like Angela remains the vocal character and in a

569
00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 1: character with a lot of depth, and I think, you know,

570
00:29:20,200 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 1: we're invested in her, but you know, she's also has

571
00:29:24,240 --> 00:29:26,959
Speaker 1: like sort of a you know, Jack Bower like approach

572
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,240
Speaker 1: to torture, you know, and and you know that's presented

573
00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:34,400
Speaker 1: off screen and somewhat less horrifically in the first episode.

574
00:29:34,480 --> 00:29:36,720
Speaker 1: But you know, if you take any pleasure in watching

575
00:29:36,800 --> 00:29:39,680
Speaker 1: the police abuse somebody like that, even someone who maybe

576
00:29:40,120 --> 00:29:43,000
Speaker 1: you know has an awful ideology and has done awful things,

577
00:29:43,760 --> 00:29:46,200
Speaker 1: I think the second episode makes you kind of, you know,

578
00:29:46,280 --> 00:29:48,120
Speaker 1: kind of rubs your face in that a little bit too.

579
00:29:48,680 --> 00:29:51,800
Speaker 1: In terms of power too, I think that sort of

580
00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:57,240
Speaker 1: parallax view inspired interrogation chamber pretty interesting device too, because

581
00:29:57,560 --> 00:29:59,720
Speaker 1: one thing I think this show is concerned about is

582
00:30:00,360 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 1: what are the limits of the state and what can

583
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:02,760
Speaker 1: the state?

584
00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:05,400
Speaker 2: You know, what can I tell you not to do?

585
00:30:05,760 --> 00:30:08,320
Speaker 1: I mean, you know, even in things that perhaps people

586
00:30:08,520 --> 00:30:11,160
Speaker 1: of a certain political persuasion would want to see happen,

587
00:30:11,680 --> 00:30:14,480
Speaker 1: like gun control cannot be taken too far. I mean,

588
00:30:14,640 --> 00:30:17,640
Speaker 1: very strict gun control results in a CoP's death in

589
00:30:17,960 --> 00:30:20,680
Speaker 1: the first episode here as well. But you know, I'm

590
00:30:20,720 --> 00:30:22,920
Speaker 1: rambling a little bit, but I think they're kind of related.

591
00:30:22,960 --> 00:30:25,000
Speaker 1: I think that interrogation scene, like, what are they doing

592
00:30:25,040 --> 00:30:28,160
Speaker 1: to that guy's head? And is that kind of invasion

593
00:30:28,720 --> 00:30:31,560
Speaker 1: in the service of preventing a crime something that you know,

594
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:34,560
Speaker 1: we should be allowing. What kind of restrictions do we

595
00:30:34,640 --> 00:30:36,760
Speaker 1: want for the greater good? At what point do we

596
00:30:36,800 --> 00:30:39,120
Speaker 1: start telling into a fairly totalitarian type environment.

597
00:30:39,200 --> 00:30:41,000
Speaker 4: Well, I mean, I think it's just kind of the

598
00:30:41,760 --> 00:30:44,440
Speaker 4: is it okay to punch a Nazi conversation writ.

599
00:30:44,320 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 3: Large well, and also kind of to go back to

600
00:30:46,920 --> 00:30:49,160
Speaker 3: what I'm saying about the way that trauma echoes through

601
00:30:49,240 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 3: history and generations, like as we see in the second episode,

602
00:30:53,560 --> 00:30:55,200
Speaker 3: I mean, we see the White Night, We see what

603
00:30:55,320 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 3: Angela and her fellow police see what was done to

604
00:30:58,800 --> 00:31:01,880
Speaker 3: them at the hands of this Seventh Cavalry, and it's

605
00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:08,520
Speaker 3: horrific and it doesn't necessarily justify, you know, Angela and

606
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:12,800
Speaker 3: all the other polices kind of approach to dealing with

607
00:31:12,840 --> 00:31:16,760
Speaker 3: the Seventh Cavalry now, but it certainly informs it. And

608
00:31:16,960 --> 00:31:19,280
Speaker 3: so that hatred, whatever you want to call it, just

609
00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:24,400
Speaker 3: keeps morphing and reflecting upon itself, much like you know,

610
00:31:24,520 --> 00:31:27,280
Speaker 3: looking Glass's mask throughout history.

611
00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:29,800
Speaker 1: I think that also makes a connection to the Dark

612
00:31:29,880 --> 00:31:33,200
Speaker 1: Knight and the idea of escalation, like the introduction of

613
00:31:33,240 --> 00:31:35,320
Speaker 1: Batman leaves the introduction of the Joker, I think I

614
00:31:35,400 --> 00:31:39,720
Speaker 1: think the violence against cops, you know, leads to it

615
00:31:39,840 --> 00:31:42,360
Speaker 1: just escalates a cycle of violence. Nothing they can do

616
00:31:42,480 --> 00:31:43,040
Speaker 1: really ends it.

617
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,560
Speaker 3: Before we move on from that, interrogation chamber sequence, And

618
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,120
Speaker 3: we haven't really talked much about Looking Glass played by

619
00:31:49,320 --> 00:31:53,040
Speaker 3: Tim Blake Nelson awesome or you know, mostly the lower

620
00:31:53,120 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 3: half of his face at this point, but that voice

621
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:59,440
Speaker 3: goes a long way, It really does, and that's scruff.

622
00:31:59,800 --> 00:32:04,360
Speaker 3: But did anyone else so his mask is very interesting?

623
00:32:04,480 --> 00:32:08,040
Speaker 3: This is this sort of reflective mask that we, without spoiling,

624
00:32:08,200 --> 00:32:10,840
Speaker 3: learn more about in a later episode. Did anyone else

625
00:32:11,040 --> 00:32:13,040
Speaker 3: like when we got a first glimpse, because I think

626
00:32:13,040 --> 00:32:15,440
Speaker 3: the first time we saw that in the trailer was

627
00:32:15,520 --> 00:32:19,240
Speaker 3: in that interrogation scene sequence where it's reflecting all of

628
00:32:19,480 --> 00:32:22,840
Speaker 3: the stuff happening around him, and I did think at

629
00:32:22,880 --> 00:32:25,720
Speaker 3: first that this was a Roarshock mask. Update did anyone

630
00:32:25,760 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 3: else have that feeling when.

631
00:32:27,120 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 4: They first saw, particularly in the in the pod, just

632
00:32:30,840 --> 00:32:34,479
Speaker 4: the way it's reflecting and in the still images from

633
00:32:34,520 --> 00:32:37,960
Speaker 4: the episode that HBO distributed, it absolutely looks like a

634
00:32:38,040 --> 00:32:41,320
Speaker 4: Rorschok mask, And I'm sure that it's meant to evoke.

635
00:32:41,040 --> 00:32:44,680
Speaker 1: That, so is his habit of eating with his mask on.

636
00:32:45,080 --> 00:32:46,920
Speaker 1: It's it's very it's things Shock does a couple of

637
00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:47,600
Speaker 1: times in the comic.

638
00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's we over at the verge that we did

639
00:32:50,840 --> 00:32:55,240
Speaker 4: a piece on specifically how the easter eggs in the

640
00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:58,440
Speaker 4: show reflect how the show is different from the comic,

641
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 4: how the show is like stepping outside the comic even

642
00:33:01,480 --> 00:33:04,200
Speaker 4: though it's referencing the comic. And that one, that one

643
00:33:04,320 --> 00:33:06,520
Speaker 4: was the biggest one for me was it's just so

644
00:33:06,800 --> 00:33:10,120
Speaker 4: obviously a reflection of Rashok, like pulling his mask up

645
00:33:10,160 --> 00:33:13,680
Speaker 4: and exposing that stubbly chin in order to eat cold

646
00:33:13,760 --> 00:33:16,880
Speaker 4: beans in the grossest way possible. But on top of that,

647
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,360
Speaker 4: there's like that early moment in the hospital where he

648
00:33:19,760 --> 00:33:22,560
Speaker 4: does have his mask pulled up and Judd says, pull

649
00:33:22,600 --> 00:33:25,479
Speaker 4: your face down, and that's a very specific Rarshock thing,

650
00:33:25,600 --> 00:33:27,920
Speaker 4: referring to his mask as his face. I do think

651
00:33:28,000 --> 00:33:30,600
Speaker 4: that in the early going, looking Glass is supposed to

652
00:33:30,680 --> 00:33:34,400
Speaker 4: pretty closely parallel Rashock and remind us of Rashok. And

653
00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:37,960
Speaker 4: a part of that is just his coldness in those

654
00:33:38,080 --> 00:33:42,400
Speaker 4: interrogations I think is meant to devote like Warshok's complete

655
00:33:42,520 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 4: lack of pity for anybody that he's identified as a criminal.

656
00:33:46,640 --> 00:33:48,960
Speaker 1: But he also episode two, that's that great moment like

657
00:33:49,040 --> 00:33:52,040
Speaker 1: let's why am I crying under here? You know that

658
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:54,000
Speaker 1: makes you think it character in a whole new light.

659
00:33:54,440 --> 00:33:56,800
Speaker 1: I think, I think Nelson Nelson, you know, I was

660
00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,160
Speaker 1: trying to describe, like I'm watched this show. It's like, Wow,

661
00:33:59,240 --> 00:34:02,560
Speaker 1: Don Johnson's the best, you know, Regina King's kind of

662
00:34:02,600 --> 00:34:05,080
Speaker 1: the best, you know, Templey Nelson's kind of the best.

663
00:34:05,160 --> 00:34:07,880
Speaker 2: You know, there's very strong performances in this show.

664
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:11,120
Speaker 4: There really are. I again, we won't get into detailed spoilers,

665
00:34:11,160 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 4: but eventually there is a later episode that revolves almost

666
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:17,880
Speaker 4: entirely around looking Glass, and at that point, a character

667
00:34:18,040 --> 00:34:21,080
Speaker 4: that I had kind of thought of as a series

668
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:25,360
Speaker 4: of Rhorshock references and in jokes and like an interesting

669
00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:28,440
Speaker 4: but very small and quirky performance from Tim Blake Milson

670
00:34:29,000 --> 00:34:32,200
Speaker 4: blossoms into one of the most interesting characters in the show.

671
00:34:32,360 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 4: And it gives me hope that the episodes that we

672
00:34:35,080 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 4: haven't seen yet are going to take the same kind

673
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:41,680
Speaker 4: of like like deeper look into individual characters, which is

674
00:34:41,719 --> 00:34:44,440
Speaker 4: something that the Leftovers did quite a lot. It's certainly

675
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:47,400
Speaker 4: something that Lost did hugely. So it's it's actually that

676
00:34:47,480 --> 00:34:50,320
Speaker 4: particular episode is actually structured a lot like an episode

677
00:34:50,320 --> 00:34:54,359
Speaker 4: of Lost, with flashbacks informing the present, and I would

678
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:56,560
Speaker 4: I would be very interested in taking that kind of

679
00:34:56,640 --> 00:34:59,359
Speaker 4: like deep dive into some of the other characters here.

680
00:34:59,440 --> 00:35:02,759
Speaker 4: But we find out about looking Glass, about his how

681
00:35:02,840 --> 00:35:05,680
Speaker 4: he operates today and where he came from in the past,

682
00:35:06,160 --> 00:35:08,960
Speaker 4: just makes him such a more interesting character. He was

683
00:35:08,960 --> 00:35:10,280
Speaker 4: already a pretty interesting character.

684
00:35:10,880 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: Can I talk too, I mean, we haven't talked about

685
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:16,480
Speaker 2: the actual like aesthetics of the show, but they're super impressive.

686
00:35:17,080 --> 00:35:19,600
Speaker 2: It is a heady show, but when it has to

687
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,200
Speaker 2: deliver an exciting comic bookie action sequence, it does it

688
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,239
Speaker 2: with a tremendous amount of brio. I mean the first

689
00:35:25,280 --> 00:35:28,400
Speaker 2: episode at the ranch, that whole shootout.

690
00:35:27,960 --> 00:35:31,319
Speaker 4: And the cows, the crashing owls, the owl, the.

691
00:35:31,320 --> 00:35:33,000
Speaker 2: Owl ship, which is all great to see again.

692
00:35:33,040 --> 00:35:35,960
Speaker 4: I mean, god, yeah, the disintegrating cow that she hides

693
00:35:36,040 --> 00:35:39,440
Speaker 4: behind that's slowly shot into wet mush.

694
00:35:39,560 --> 00:35:41,760
Speaker 2: It's a great I mean, that's a really thrilling sequence.

695
00:35:41,840 --> 00:35:43,960
Speaker 2: And uh, and so the show has that power to

696
00:35:44,040 --> 00:35:46,800
Speaker 2: really whiskey away. Its use of music is extraordinary. I

697
00:35:46,880 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 2: think that I really like the John Carpentery score.

698
00:35:50,640 --> 00:35:55,400
Speaker 3: And it's Trent Reznor, right, yeah, yeah. In the second episode,

699
00:35:55,440 --> 00:35:58,680
Speaker 3: you get it may be Angela's theme. It's certainly playing

700
00:35:58,719 --> 00:36:01,520
Speaker 3: whenever she's like, you know, questioning Will or kind of

701
00:36:01,680 --> 00:36:04,800
Speaker 3: doing police see stuff. But there's a very like distinct

702
00:36:05,000 --> 00:36:08,440
Speaker 3: theme music that is just so Resnor and Ross.

703
00:36:08,960 --> 00:36:11,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, and also Eggmanned by the Bcie Boys is the

704
00:36:13,040 --> 00:36:16,560
Speaker 2: music in the second episode, which made me a smile

705
00:36:16,640 --> 00:36:19,319
Speaker 2: quite a bit. It also was clever. It was clever

706
00:36:19,400 --> 00:36:21,239
Speaker 2: in the sense that well, for one, it's referencing the

707
00:36:21,320 --> 00:36:24,720
Speaker 2: eggs that were used by Lou Gassid in the episode,

708
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:27,600
Speaker 2: but it also is a song in which you think

709
00:36:27,640 --> 00:36:30,760
Speaker 2: it's super fly, but it is the Beacie Boys. It's

710
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:32,600
Speaker 2: a remix of its own, you know, it's a sample,

711
00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,320
Speaker 2: so it kind of feeds into the show itself. But

712
00:36:35,520 --> 00:36:37,359
Speaker 2: I think it's a show that it has to work

713
00:36:37,480 --> 00:36:42,480
Speaker 2: and persuade just on a you know, a visceral, you know, exciting,

714
00:36:43,360 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 2: well crafted level, and it does that too, you know.

715
00:36:45,560 --> 00:36:48,319
Speaker 2: So it feels at this point anyway, like a very

716
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,719
Speaker 2: fully realized vision. We'll see when if it goes off

717
00:36:51,760 --> 00:36:54,520
Speaker 2: there else. I haven't felt like this ways since The

718
00:36:54,560 --> 00:36:58,440
Speaker 2: Handmaid's Tale, which WTCH I guess had the rail rails,

719
00:36:58,520 --> 00:37:01,080
Speaker 2: but like the first because it was like, you're really

720
00:37:01,160 --> 00:37:04,759
Speaker 2: just make this an ongoing series, you know that. I

721
00:37:04,920 --> 00:37:08,920
Speaker 2: just recall liking the entire first season of The Handmaid's

722
00:37:08,960 --> 00:37:12,399
Speaker 2: Tale while also feeling like this could and may well

723
00:37:12,560 --> 00:37:16,160
Speaker 2: go wrong at some point, because it's just you're playing

724
00:37:16,200 --> 00:37:16,560
Speaker 2: with fire.

725
00:37:16,640 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 4: I mean, I'm five episodes in and it hasn't gone

726
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:19,799
Speaker 4: off the rails yet.

727
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 3: I think it's gotten better with every episode.

728
00:37:21,960 --> 00:37:25,880
Speaker 4: Myself, Yeah, which is I mean again, I've lost looms

729
00:37:26,000 --> 00:37:28,480
Speaker 4: large over me. But I like, I love the end

730
00:37:28,560 --> 00:37:31,440
Speaker 4: of the final episodes of The Leftovers. I think are

731
00:37:31,600 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 4: so strong and so emotionally powerful. I'm hoping for something

732
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:38,239
Speaker 4: a little more that than Lost. But this far into

733
00:37:38,280 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 4: the series, it remains exciting. It remains surprising, It remains

734
00:37:43,480 --> 00:37:47,440
Speaker 4: dedicated to being surprising. It remains dedicated to continuing to

735
00:37:48,040 --> 00:37:49,640
Speaker 4: progressively open up the world.

736
00:37:49,880 --> 00:37:50,000
Speaker 2: Now.

737
00:37:50,120 --> 00:37:52,200
Speaker 3: Linda Loov has said that he sees this as a

738
00:37:52,280 --> 00:37:52,719
Speaker 3: one off.

739
00:37:52,880 --> 00:37:55,440
Speaker 4: That he sees this I.

740
00:37:55,600 --> 00:37:58,040
Speaker 1: Question whether, I don't know, that might just be him

741
00:37:58,040 --> 00:38:00,640
Speaker 1: being kloy, you know, I don't know. Six episodes in,

742
00:38:00,719 --> 00:38:03,360
Speaker 1: it doesn't feel like there's only three episodes left of

743
00:38:03,520 --> 00:38:05,560
Speaker 1: story in this, But maybe there is.

744
00:38:05,640 --> 00:38:06,960
Speaker 2: Who knows it's it's.

745
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:09,279
Speaker 4: Really I mean, who knows. Maybe it ends with another

746
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,040
Speaker 4: giant squid. Being dropped on everything maybe, but at the

747
00:38:12,160 --> 00:38:15,000
Speaker 4: moment it feels like something like The Leftovers where a

748
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 4: Scott said, it's just getting bigger with every new revelation,

749
00:38:19,000 --> 00:38:21,680
Speaker 4: with every new installment. It feels like this is something

750
00:38:21,760 --> 00:38:25,320
Speaker 4: that could go on for three or four seasons before

751
00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 4: you even have to worry about repetition.

752
00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,320
Speaker 1: Yeah. Getting back to the style, though, I feel like

753
00:38:30,560 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: a lot of times it's evocative of the comic in

754
00:38:34,680 --> 00:38:37,440
Speaker 1: style more than a narrative. In many ways, I think

755
00:38:37,440 --> 00:38:40,000
Speaker 1: it's trying to tell different sorts of stories. But you

756
00:38:40,160 --> 00:38:42,520
Speaker 1: get these frames that if you freeze frame them that

757
00:38:42,600 --> 00:38:44,279
Speaker 1: they kind of look like a Dave Gibbd's panel where

758
00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:46,040
Speaker 1: there's so much detail packed into it, like in the

759
00:38:46,080 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: Classroom where if you look in the background there's the

760
00:38:49,040 --> 00:38:53,319
Speaker 1: Four Important Presidents poster, there's the Anatomy of a Squid poster.

761
00:38:53,440 --> 00:38:56,400
Speaker 1: There's just stuff to look at in every frame, and

762
00:38:56,560 --> 00:38:58,640
Speaker 1: a lot of graphic matches they edit, you know, they

763
00:38:58,760 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 1: cut from one image to another, the echoes it or

764
00:39:01,880 --> 00:39:05,040
Speaker 1: his character in the same position within the frame saying

765
00:39:05,080 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: that more did a lot, and you get that quite

766
00:39:07,320 --> 00:39:07,879
Speaker 1: a bit as well.

767
00:39:08,280 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 3: And also the episode titles.

768
00:39:10,960 --> 00:39:13,239
Speaker 1: Yeah, episode titles, Yeah, and now we're getting sort of

769
00:39:13,280 --> 00:39:15,800
Speaker 1: the back matters is turning up as PDFs on the

770
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:19,560
Speaker 1: HBO site, which is quite interesting as well. But it's

771
00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:23,400
Speaker 1: got also referenced the narration of one scene overlaying the

772
00:39:23,520 --> 00:39:26,279
Speaker 1: action of another and providing some kind of counterpoint or

773
00:39:26,320 --> 00:39:29,200
Speaker 1: comment on it. Those are all, you know, those are

774
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,840
Speaker 1: all the things that people someone who has read the

775
00:39:32,520 --> 00:39:35,600
Speaker 1: comic over and over has found ways to bring that

776
00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:37,400
Speaker 1: into the world of the show, and I think it

777
00:39:37,480 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 1: works quite well. So obviously there's a lot to talk

778
00:39:40,000 --> 00:39:43,320
Speaker 1: about with this show, and it's a story in progress,

779
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,600
Speaker 1: so we're kind of in finding ways to you know,

780
00:39:45,680 --> 00:39:48,080
Speaker 1: we're running out of things that we can say about it. Definitively,

781
00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:50,000
Speaker 1: I think we've enjoyed talking about it. We might end

782
00:39:50,080 --> 00:39:52,440
Speaker 1: up not to not to tease our non Patreon subscribers,

783
00:39:52,480 --> 00:39:54,240
Speaker 1: but we might end up doing a wrap up episode

784
00:39:54,320 --> 00:39:57,560
Speaker 1: as a Patreon bonus episode. And also, if you've enjoyed

785
00:39:57,560 --> 00:39:59,600
Speaker 1: this discussion, you know, the four of us are either

786
00:39:59,760 --> 00:40:02,880
Speaker 1: edited pieces about this or writing pieces about this. Tasha

787
00:40:02,880 --> 00:40:06,319
Speaker 1: has certainly commissioned stuff for The Virgin. We'll be doing

788
00:40:06,360 --> 00:40:09,560
Speaker 1: stuff at Polygon when she moves over there. Genevieve is

789
00:40:09,600 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: doing stuff for Vulture, including stuff by me. I'm doing

790
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:15,640
Speaker 1: a weekly questions column on this, and there's so many questions.

791
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:17,279
Speaker 1: I don't know if you looked at the last piece

792
00:40:17,280 --> 00:40:19,799
Speaker 1: I turned down on Genevieve, but I did. I said

793
00:40:19,840 --> 00:40:22,080
Speaker 1: a note, and I said, I started out wondering if

794
00:40:22,120 --> 00:40:23,640
Speaker 1: this would be have enough to write about it, and

795
00:40:23,760 --> 00:40:26,280
Speaker 1: at the end like it was like twenty eight hundred words.

796
00:40:28,000 --> 00:40:31,080
Speaker 1: I also wrote about some stuff for on Polygon about

797
00:40:31,080 --> 00:40:33,320
Speaker 1: the original graphic novel as an eighties artifact. And I

798
00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:36,319
Speaker 1: did a couple one other piece for Vulture, kind kind

799
00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:38,560
Speaker 1: of a what you need to know about the book

800
00:40:38,880 --> 00:40:41,560
Speaker 1: kind of piece. And Scott you are talking about it

801
00:40:41,600 --> 00:40:44,480
Speaker 1: as well for The New York Times. Tied, that's one

802
00:40:44,480 --> 00:40:46,399
Speaker 1: of your better that's one of your better papers.

803
00:40:46,120 --> 00:40:50,239
Speaker 2: Right, unless not if you're you know, the Trump administry,

804
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:52,680
Speaker 2: I guess, but I think it's well respected.

805
00:40:52,760 --> 00:40:55,000
Speaker 1: Yeah, all right, well I've heard about it. All right, Well,

806
00:40:55,200 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 1: we'll be right back after the break to b or

807
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:09,440
Speaker 1: some feedback. Now that's time for feedback, when our listeners

808
00:41:09,520 --> 00:41:12,160
Speaker 1: wigh in with their responses to recent episodes and anything

809
00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:14,560
Speaker 1: else in the world of film that they find interesting.

810
00:41:15,040 --> 00:41:17,120
Speaker 1: And because of the three part episode. We're already getting

811
00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:20,000
Speaker 1: the Dark Knight and Jograph feedback. Let's dig in, Genevieve,

812
00:41:20,040 --> 00:41:20,759
Speaker 1: want to start off.

813
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:22,840
Speaker 3: Sure, Dane writes, your pairing of The Dark Knight and

814
00:41:22,960 --> 00:41:25,080
Speaker 3: Joker reminded me of a tweet of Scott's a few

815
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:28,040
Speaker 3: days before Joker opened in theaters. Scott, would you like

816
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:29,480
Speaker 3: to read your tweet for us?

817
00:41:29,960 --> 00:41:34,160
Speaker 2: I guess I will the tweet my tweet read the

818
00:41:34,239 --> 00:41:37,239
Speaker 2: festival effect. It feels like Joker has already come and

819
00:41:37,360 --> 00:41:40,520
Speaker 2: gone and been completely picked over, but it hasn't opened yet.

820
00:41:40,960 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: Still for it to play in theaters, it really seems

821
00:41:43,239 --> 00:41:44,719
Speaker 2: like overkill at this point, all right.

822
00:41:44,680 --> 00:41:47,680
Speaker 3: So Dane continues. The tweet brought into focus something I've

823
00:41:47,680 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 3: been thinking about film criticism and discourse in general. It

824
00:41:50,640 --> 00:41:53,320
Speaker 3: seems as someone who sees films only when they are released,

825
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,840
Speaker 3: that by the time I see anything, even the biggest films,

826
00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:58,600
Speaker 3: which I often see opening weekend, the discourse among film

827
00:41:58,640 --> 00:42:00,840
Speaker 3: critics has already moved on to the big film in

828
00:42:00,920 --> 00:42:04,000
Speaker 3: a kind of never ending cycle. The festival effect makes

829
00:42:04,080 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 3: this even worse. Joker was only a month, but some

830
00:42:06,719 --> 00:42:08,960
Speaker 3: films will be months between when critics see a film

831
00:42:09,000 --> 00:42:11,200
Speaker 3: and discuss it and when I can actually see the film.

832
00:42:11,640 --> 00:42:14,759
Speaker 3: I'm finally seeing Parasite tomorrow, the first day it's open

833
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:17,200
Speaker 3: in my area, and it's already been discussed and picked

834
00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:19,840
Speaker 3: apart for months on end. The Irishman doesn't open in

835
00:42:19,920 --> 00:42:21,839
Speaker 3: theaters for nearly a month, and the same thing has

836
00:42:21,840 --> 00:42:24,640
Speaker 3: already happened. I cannot help but wonder who the current

837
00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:27,520
Speaker 3: model serves. I'm not a spoiler fobe in general, but

838
00:42:27,600 --> 00:42:29,200
Speaker 3: I do try not to read much about a film

839
00:42:29,239 --> 00:42:30,840
Speaker 3: I know I'm going to see before I see it,

840
00:42:31,440 --> 00:42:33,440
Speaker 3: meaning that I'm not clicking on any of these pieces

841
00:42:33,480 --> 00:42:35,759
Speaker 3: about these films right now, but I will consume them

842
00:42:35,800 --> 00:42:38,360
Speaker 3: all after I see the films. I understand that critics

843
00:42:38,400 --> 00:42:40,440
Speaker 3: and outlets need to publish these pieces. When they do.

844
00:42:40,960 --> 00:42:42,960
Speaker 3: I cannot remember the critic who had a thread explaining

845
00:42:42,960 --> 00:42:45,360
Speaker 3: why they needed to publish their us ending explainer the

846
00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 3: day the film opened, when people complained, basically stating that

847
00:42:48,440 --> 00:42:50,440
Speaker 3: even delaying the publishing of the piece by a few

848
00:42:50,480 --> 00:42:53,240
Speaker 3: days would mean thousands of fewer clicks, meaning less revenue.

849
00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,800
Speaker 3: And if you take that far enough, eventually those outlets

850
00:42:55,880 --> 00:42:58,399
Speaker 3: close like so many others have done so. And yet

851
00:42:58,560 --> 00:43:00,320
Speaker 3: does it really make sense that there is such a

852
00:43:00,360 --> 00:43:02,719
Speaker 3: time delay between when film critics are discussing a film

853
00:43:02,800 --> 00:43:05,320
Speaker 3: and when general audiences see it and can discuss it

854
00:43:06,360 --> 00:43:07,239
Speaker 3: general audiences.

855
00:43:08,800 --> 00:43:10,680
Speaker 4: This is I mean, this is a big bugaboo of mine,

856
00:43:10,719 --> 00:43:13,239
Speaker 4: because I honestly I have the same feeling for those

857
00:43:13,280 --> 00:43:15,520
Speaker 4: of us that go to film festivals. It feels like

858
00:43:16,320 --> 00:43:18,200
Speaker 4: we can justify it up one side and down the

859
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,279
Speaker 4: other by saying we do better in SEO, we do

860
00:43:21,440 --> 00:43:25,240
Speaker 4: better in Google rankings, we do better in getting ourselves

861
00:43:25,280 --> 00:43:29,920
Speaker 4: into Metacritic and Rotten Tomatoes and first reaction lineups and

862
00:43:29,920 --> 00:43:33,839
Speaker 4: all of these things that boost our company's profiles if

863
00:43:33,920 --> 00:43:37,000
Speaker 4: we put out reviews the second of film like Joker premieres.

864
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:41,600
Speaker 4: But I think the fundamental fact is we're all film

865
00:43:41,640 --> 00:43:44,000
Speaker 4: fans first and foremost, and when you see a movie

866
00:43:44,440 --> 00:43:49,760
Speaker 4: that's provocative like Parasite, that's complicated and problematic like Joker,

867
00:43:50,080 --> 00:43:51,719
Speaker 4: you come out of it wanting to talk about it.

868
00:43:52,080 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 4: And part of the way we do that is by

869
00:43:54,560 --> 00:43:57,200
Speaker 4: writing about it, and you know two months later when

870
00:43:57,200 --> 00:43:59,600
Speaker 4: it finally comes out in some cases a year later,

871
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:02,640
Speaker 4: when it finally comes out. We can't ever have that

872
00:44:02,880 --> 00:44:05,560
Speaker 4: experience of first watching the film again, that experience of

873
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:08,600
Speaker 4: like walking out of a film kind of thunderstruck, maybe

874
00:44:08,840 --> 00:44:13,080
Speaker 4: maybe horrified and angry, maybe delighted and pleased, but coming

875
00:44:13,120 --> 00:44:15,440
Speaker 4: out of a film wanting to talk about it. So

876
00:44:15,760 --> 00:44:20,000
Speaker 4: I honestly think that that drives the way these conversations

877
00:44:20,120 --> 00:44:24,520
Speaker 4: happen as much as business concerns, and I don't see

878
00:44:24,600 --> 00:44:26,800
Speaker 4: that being a problem with a solution.

879
00:44:27,000 --> 00:44:27,120
Speaker 3: Now.

880
00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:29,759
Speaker 4: It is possible from a business standpoint that we could

881
00:44:29,760 --> 00:44:32,040
Speaker 4: all write our hot takes and then just bank them

882
00:44:32,120 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 4: for you know, two to twelve months, two years in

883
00:44:35,120 --> 00:44:40,000
Speaker 4: the case of the current war, it just seems unlikely

884
00:44:40,160 --> 00:44:42,600
Speaker 4: that that's going to happen. Keith, you were complaining about

885
00:44:42,600 --> 00:44:43,120
Speaker 4: this recently.

886
00:44:43,280 --> 00:44:43,800
Speaker 2: I hate it.

887
00:44:44,760 --> 00:44:47,239
Speaker 1: I like, as I'm out of the editing game at

888
00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:50,480
Speaker 1: the moment, so I can just say I'm reformed editor

889
00:44:50,640 --> 00:44:52,920
Speaker 1: or something like this. But I hate that we're now

890
00:44:53,000 --> 00:44:55,960
Speaker 1: living a world where, you know, the studio sets the embargo,

891
00:44:56,520 --> 00:44:58,800
Speaker 1: which can be like you know you embargo is for

892
00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:00,319
Speaker 1: three am Eastern time.

893
00:45:00,480 --> 00:45:02,520
Speaker 4: There's more and more of that happening, and I don't

894
00:45:02,600 --> 00:45:03,040
Speaker 4: understand that.

895
00:45:03,080 --> 00:45:05,600
Speaker 1: And then like two weeks before a film comes out,

896
00:45:05,880 --> 00:45:07,480
Speaker 1: all of a sudden, you know, all the reviews drop

897
00:45:07,560 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 1: at that point, and then it feels like, you know,

898
00:45:09,840 --> 00:45:12,400
Speaker 1: we all have our discussion before anyone can see it.

899
00:45:12,480 --> 00:45:15,040
Speaker 1: And I don't think that's that is a healthier discussion

900
00:45:15,120 --> 00:45:18,080
Speaker 1: at that point. I mean the example I was pointing

901
00:45:18,120 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: to was Abominable, which which you know, why why were

902
00:45:22,719 --> 00:45:25,319
Speaker 1: reviews of that running a week early? You know, it's

903
00:45:25,360 --> 00:45:28,520
Speaker 1: just it doesn't serve It didn't serve anyone. Yeah, well

904
00:45:28,520 --> 00:45:31,520
Speaker 1: I guess so. But but I just I I basically

905
00:45:31,520 --> 00:45:33,680
Speaker 1: the Internet was a mistake, is what I'm saying. But

906
00:45:34,040 --> 00:45:36,920
Speaker 1: like I do feel like a better situation would be

907
00:45:37,040 --> 00:45:40,160
Speaker 1: one where reviews are just held until the day before opening,

908
00:45:40,560 --> 00:45:42,520
Speaker 1: and that's kind of a turn back the clock to

909
00:45:42,760 --> 00:45:45,800
Speaker 1: pre Internet age. But I do feel like readership was

910
00:45:45,880 --> 00:45:49,680
Speaker 1: better served when the conversation around a movie happened when

911
00:45:49,719 --> 00:45:51,719
Speaker 1: the movie became available for the public to see.

912
00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,280
Speaker 4: You just, do you want every website to be the dissolve?

913
00:45:54,640 --> 00:45:55,160
Speaker 2: Yeah? I know.

914
00:45:56,200 --> 00:45:57,200
Speaker 1: Dot Com does that as well.

915
00:45:57,280 --> 00:46:00,560
Speaker 2: Dissolved it. We did too. You didn't do it first.

916
00:46:00,800 --> 00:46:03,399
Speaker 1: We started playing that game when we started worrying about

917
00:46:03,440 --> 00:46:06,440
Speaker 1: traffic because you know, and that was silly because were

918
00:46:06,480 --> 00:46:07,440
Speaker 1: destined to last forever.

919
00:46:08,200 --> 00:46:11,200
Speaker 2: Well, but I have a very strong memory because we

920
00:46:11,280 --> 00:46:14,719
Speaker 2: had to sort of manually bring certain elements to the

921
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,040
Speaker 2: site live at certain times because that wasn't that wasn't

922
00:46:18,120 --> 00:46:20,759
Speaker 2: set up for us. And so I remember staying up

923
00:46:20,840 --> 00:46:23,320
Speaker 2: until like one in the morning to post a review

924
00:46:23,400 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 2: of the Entourage movie. That was precious hours. I remember.

925
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:32,480
Speaker 2: I remember the time that that the internet stayed up.

926
00:46:32,880 --> 00:46:35,840
Speaker 2: I waited for Entourage reviews. But but it is. I

927
00:46:35,920 --> 00:46:40,320
Speaker 2: think Dane is completely correct and complaining about this, and

928
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,440
Speaker 2: also completely correct in his analysis of why why it occurs.

929
00:46:43,600 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: That's the other thing is that like when I was

930
00:46:45,120 --> 00:46:46,840
Speaker 1: at up Rocks, it was it was definitely when I

931
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:51,080
Speaker 1: really started to publish reviews as soon as the embargo broke,

932
00:46:51,120 --> 00:46:53,080
Speaker 1: because as Mike Ryan, who was doing a lot of

933
00:46:53,080 --> 00:46:55,920
Speaker 1: the reviews, said, you know, if you don't get it

934
00:46:56,000 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: that first wave, if you're not going to get any

935
00:46:57,600 --> 00:46:59,720
Speaker 1: traffic from it, and he wasn't wrong. You published reviews

936
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:01,400
Speaker 1: later any maids, We'll not publish them at all. And

937
00:47:01,520 --> 00:47:05,880
Speaker 1: that's it's crappy. Yeah, is the nature of the internet. Unfortunately.

938
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 4: Huh, Yeah, you say that, and that's the received wisdom

939
00:47:09,200 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 4: at this point. But I think it radically depends on

940
00:47:11,920 --> 00:47:14,960
Speaker 4: the audience, and I think it's also it's also changing

941
00:47:15,080 --> 00:47:18,400
Speaker 4: depending on how people use the internet At Polygon, I

942
00:47:18,480 --> 00:47:21,080
Speaker 4: feel like maybe I shouldn't give this away because like

943
00:47:21,200 --> 00:47:25,520
Speaker 4: maybe it's an exciting trade secret. But Matt Patches, the

944
00:47:25,640 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 4: editor over there that I'm going to be working under

945
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:30,360
Speaker 4: when I move, has said that he never wants to

946
00:47:30,400 --> 00:47:33,960
Speaker 4: publish a review of a new Netflix movie before seven

947
00:47:34,040 --> 00:47:38,040
Speaker 4: pm on the night that it releases, and so many

948
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:40,840
Speaker 4: people like it, it's very clear. Sometimes when you have

949
00:47:41,160 --> 00:47:46,120
Speaker 4: a much anticipated Netflix series like Stranger Things, for instance,

950
00:47:46,560 --> 00:47:49,320
Speaker 4: there are people who will stay up and when it

951
00:47:49,400 --> 00:47:52,759
Speaker 4: drops at midnight, we'll binge watch the entire thing and

952
00:47:52,880 --> 00:47:56,719
Speaker 4: be like blearally discussing the end of the series by

953
00:47:56,800 --> 00:48:00,239
Speaker 4: ten am the next morning. But according to him, search

954
00:48:00,360 --> 00:48:04,759
Speaker 4: traffic for new movies on Netflix peaks Friday evening when

955
00:48:04,800 --> 00:48:06,560
Speaker 4: people get home from work and trying to figure out

956
00:48:06,680 --> 00:48:08,760
Speaker 4: what to watch on Netflix. And he says that traffic

957
00:48:09,400 --> 00:48:13,120
Speaker 4: for those reviews in particular, like is much much better

958
00:48:13,280 --> 00:48:15,480
Speaker 4: at seven pm on a Friday night. Now, that is

959
00:48:16,080 --> 00:48:19,960
Speaker 4: it goes so far against like our understanding, our industry

960
00:48:20,120 --> 00:48:23,960
Speaker 4: understanding of how these things work, that it just it

961
00:48:24,000 --> 00:48:26,279
Speaker 4: feels a little crazy. But It does make me wonder

962
00:48:26,320 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 4: if people like Mike need to actually sit down and

963
00:48:28,560 --> 00:48:30,879
Speaker 4: like look at the traffic patterns, or if it's that's

964
00:48:30,960 --> 00:48:33,360
Speaker 4: just a difference between Polygon's audience and up Rocks, the

965
00:48:33,400 --> 00:48:36,560
Speaker 4: difference between the New York Times audience and you know,

966
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:40,280
Speaker 4: people who are like having their entire discussion on Reddit

967
00:48:40,680 --> 00:48:42,880
Speaker 4: because they watch the entire season of something that the

968
00:48:43,000 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 4: second it dropped. I think that there are a lot

969
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:47,160
Speaker 4: of different audiences out there, and you need to know

970
00:48:47,239 --> 00:48:50,200
Speaker 4: which one you're serving. And in a lot of cases,

971
00:48:50,320 --> 00:48:53,520
Speaker 4: our conversation around these movies is serving film Twitter. It's

972
00:48:53,560 --> 00:48:56,319
Speaker 4: serving the people who all see the movies at tiff

973
00:48:56,440 --> 00:48:58,719
Speaker 4: or can or wherever. And it's maybe something we need

974
00:48:58,800 --> 00:49:01,200
Speaker 4: to rethink. But it's also something that's just going to

975
00:49:01,200 --> 00:49:05,160
Speaker 4: be tremendously hard to shift. As long as everybody's doing

976
00:49:05,200 --> 00:49:07,120
Speaker 4: it one way, it's very hard to do it the

977
00:49:07,160 --> 00:49:07,480
Speaker 4: other way.

978
00:49:07,760 --> 00:49:11,200
Speaker 3: Totally, I'm gonna kind of gently push against Matt Patch's wisdom.

979
00:49:11,239 --> 00:49:14,279
Speaker 3: There is someone who you know, does publish things as

980
00:49:14,320 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 3: soon as series go live on Netflix for traffic reasons,

981
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 3: and who watches traffic very closely. Although he is right

982
00:49:22,080 --> 00:49:24,920
Speaker 3: that it peaks around seven but you're arguably you never

983
00:49:24,920 --> 00:49:26,360
Speaker 3: want to leave traffic on the table. But this is

984
00:49:26,400 --> 00:49:28,919
Speaker 3: not a discussion about SEO. This is a discussion about

985
00:49:28,920 --> 00:49:31,960
Speaker 3: watching movies, and I just wanted to kind of put

986
00:49:32,000 --> 00:49:33,719
Speaker 3: in my two cents. Is someone who has kind of

987
00:49:33,840 --> 00:49:36,960
Speaker 3: swung to the other end of the spectrum kind of

988
00:49:37,000 --> 00:49:40,520
Speaker 3: wildly in recent months. For those of you who don't know,

989
00:49:40,600 --> 00:49:44,080
Speaker 3: I moved from Chicago to Michigan, to suburban Michigan, where

990
00:49:44,680 --> 00:49:47,400
Speaker 3: not only am I no longer able to see early

991
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,480
Speaker 3: screenings as I was in Chicago, sometimes I can't even

992
00:49:50,520 --> 00:49:53,080
Speaker 3: see movies that are that are out in limited release,

993
00:49:53,400 --> 00:49:55,399
Speaker 3: you know, for for a month or so after I'm

994
00:49:55,480 --> 00:49:58,480
Speaker 3: going to Chicago this weekend to see Parasite so I

995
00:49:58,560 --> 00:50:01,200
Speaker 3: can talk about it for for our next podcast. And

996
00:50:01,280 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 3: if you notice that I'm not on the podcast as

997
00:50:04,239 --> 00:50:06,000
Speaker 3: much often, it's because I'm not able to see a

998
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:09,919
Speaker 3: movie in time to talk about it. So I increasingly

999
00:50:10,200 --> 00:50:13,320
Speaker 3: feel this sense of being left out of the discussion

1000
00:50:13,840 --> 00:50:16,479
Speaker 3: on film Twitter, which I interact with less and less

1001
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,120
Speaker 3: these days. Because of this. I think it's helped by

1002
00:50:20,160 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 3: the fact that I, for the most part, don't care

1003
00:50:23,800 --> 00:50:27,719
Speaker 3: about spoilers. I am fine reading about things before I

1004
00:50:27,840 --> 00:50:29,920
Speaker 3: see them. That's just kind of the nature of my

1005
00:50:30,080 --> 00:50:32,239
Speaker 3: job for so long, you know, I'm used to it.

1006
00:50:32,600 --> 00:50:36,040
Speaker 3: I like going into a movie with ideas that I

1007
00:50:36,160 --> 00:50:39,000
Speaker 3: can kind of watch play out. But what I do

1008
00:50:39,200 --> 00:50:43,520
Speaker 3: appreciate is when you know, people talking about these films

1009
00:50:44,200 --> 00:50:47,480
Speaker 3: are like, do not read anything about this movie, which

1010
00:50:47,560 --> 00:50:49,600
Speaker 3: is what has happened a lot with Parasite, a movie

1011
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:53,279
Speaker 3: that I have strenuously avoided reading anything about because I

1012
00:50:53,360 --> 00:50:57,640
Speaker 3: have been told explicitly not to do so. So in

1013
00:50:57,800 --> 00:51:01,120
Speaker 3: this context, I don't have a problem with witnessing the

1014
00:51:01,160 --> 00:51:03,400
Speaker 3: discussion of a movie I can't see yet, but I

1015
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:07,880
Speaker 3: do greatly appreciate an awareness of how that discussion can

1016
00:51:07,960 --> 00:51:11,960
Speaker 3: affect someone's viewing experience and sort of being upfront about that,

1017
00:51:12,320 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 3: like like Parasite.

1018
00:51:13,440 --> 00:51:15,600
Speaker 1: In this case, I guess the best solation I can

1019
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:17,840
Speaker 1: think of is, you know, bookmark those you know, the

1020
00:51:17,920 --> 00:51:20,680
Speaker 1: same thing, those articles for later, because there's a lot

1021
00:51:20,680 --> 00:51:22,560
Speaker 1: of really good film motting that I think, I think

1022
00:51:22,719 --> 00:51:25,480
Speaker 1: you know and ideally would appear a little later than

1023
00:51:25,520 --> 00:51:28,239
Speaker 1: it does. But you know, we're all out there trying

1024
00:51:28,280 --> 00:51:29,640
Speaker 1: to make it make a good conversation.

1025
00:51:29,920 --> 00:51:33,400
Speaker 2: I'd say that it's just reviews primarily that get released.

1026
00:51:33,680 --> 00:51:34,760
Speaker 2: You know, they have that embargo.

1027
00:51:35,200 --> 00:51:37,480
Speaker 1: Didn't you feel that Joker was just chewed up and

1028
00:51:37,560 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 1: spit out, you know, weeks before?

1029
00:51:39,840 --> 00:51:41,520
Speaker 2: And maybe, but that's what there was. I think, just

1030
00:51:41,600 --> 00:51:44,680
Speaker 2: a lot of discussion sight out the scene of that thing.

1031
00:51:44,840 --> 00:51:46,839
Speaker 4: Yeah, there was also a degree to which, like, there

1032
00:51:46,880 --> 00:51:48,719
Speaker 4: were people who walked out of that film tired of

1033
00:51:48,800 --> 00:51:51,440
Speaker 4: that film. You know, there were there are aspects of

1034
00:51:51,520 --> 00:51:54,719
Speaker 4: that film that are somewhat emotionally exhausting, and I think

1035
00:51:54,880 --> 00:51:57,480
Speaker 4: people kind of came up predisposed to not want to

1036
00:51:57,520 --> 00:52:00,640
Speaker 4: have those conversations and they're therefore like, you know, after

1037
00:52:00,800 --> 00:52:05,200
Speaker 4: weeks of having those conversations anyway, I think a certain

1038
00:52:05,440 --> 00:52:07,719
Speaker 4: class of people just kind of had a feeling of

1039
00:52:07,840 --> 00:52:10,560
Speaker 4: can we stop talking about this movie? I heard so

1040
00:52:10,760 --> 00:52:14,799
Speaker 4: much anger at Tiff over Joker winning the Golden Lion

1041
00:52:15,320 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 4: that I mean, it was it was like people were

1042
00:52:18,480 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 4: tired of the film before they had even seen it.

1043
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:24,880
Speaker 4: And when you go into a movie with that attitude, like,

1044
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:26,840
Speaker 4: of course you're going to feel that the discussion is

1045
00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:29,880
Speaker 4: over a week later because you didn't want to have

1046
00:52:29,920 --> 00:52:31,880
Speaker 4: the discussion in the first place. And that's something I

1047
00:52:32,000 --> 00:52:34,000
Speaker 4: just feel like I saw a lot of with Joker.

1048
00:52:34,160 --> 00:52:36,400
Speaker 1: Well, we're going to leave it there and perhaps revisit

1049
00:52:36,480 --> 00:52:40,239
Speaker 1: The Joker and Dark Knight in a future episode of Feedback.

1050
00:52:40,480 --> 00:52:42,479
Speaker 1: We always appreciate when our listener to share their thoughts

1051
00:52:42,520 --> 00:52:45,279
Speaker 1: and their recommendations. If you feel so inclined, we can

1052
00:52:45,360 --> 00:52:47,719
Speaker 1: feature your spots on a future episode. To reach us,

1053
00:52:47,760 --> 00:52:50,200
Speaker 1: you can leave a short voicemail at seven seven three

1054
00:52:50,280 --> 00:52:53,400
Speaker 1: two three four nine seven three zero or email us

1055
00:52:53,440 --> 00:53:01,560
Speaker 1: at comments at Next Picture Show dot net. That's it

1056
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,879
Speaker 1: for the special one off episode of the Next Picture Show.

1057
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,920
Speaker 1: In our next episode, we'll return to our regular format, Tasha,

1058
00:53:06,960 --> 00:53:08,480
Speaker 1: would you want to tell us what we're doing next?

1059
00:53:08,680 --> 00:53:11,480
Speaker 4: Writer director Bong June Hoe had made movies before he

1060
00:53:11,560 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 4: broke big onto the international stage with two thousand and

1061
00:53:14,080 --> 00:53:17,319
Speaker 4: six's creature feature The Host, which features a CGI monster

1062
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:21,120
Speaker 4: created by American negligence running amuck in South Korea. But

1063
00:53:21,200 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 4: The Host gave him a widespread reputation as both a

1064
00:53:23,520 --> 00:53:27,040
Speaker 4: smart stylist and a mildly deranged humorist who injected an

1065
00:53:27,080 --> 00:53:30,279
Speaker 4: off kilter, enjoyably specific look at family into what could

1066
00:53:30,280 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 4: have otherwise been a standard monster movie. He takes a

1067
00:53:33,160 --> 00:53:36,440
Speaker 4: similarly colorful look at family in his terrific new film Parasite,

1068
00:53:36,800 --> 00:53:39,600
Speaker 4: about a family of impoverished schemers who trick their way

1069
00:53:39,600 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 4: into the confidences and then the household of some clueless

1070
00:53:42,560 --> 00:53:44,520
Speaker 4: rich folk, where the host is more of a look

1071
00:53:44,520 --> 00:53:47,240
Speaker 4: at human connections and responsibility in the face of disaster,

1072
00:53:47,440 --> 00:53:51,040
Speaker 4: though Parasite is about class differences and con artists, about

1073
00:53:51,160 --> 00:53:53,920
Speaker 4: entitlement and chicanery, and about some big reveals that make

1074
00:53:54,000 --> 00:53:56,920
Speaker 4: this story entirely unexpected. We'll get into both of these

1075
00:53:56,960 --> 00:53:58,360
Speaker 4: films in our next set of podcasts.

1076
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:00,800
Speaker 1: Look for that next Tuesday, or better yet, subscribe to

1077
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:03,960
Speaker 1: the Next Picture Show on Apple Podcasts, Spotify, or your

1078
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:06,880
Speaker 1: podcaster of choice. Even better still, you can support us

1079
00:54:07,040 --> 00:54:10,439
Speaker 1: on Patreon at Patreon dot com slash Next Picture Show,

1080
00:54:10,880 --> 00:54:13,319
Speaker 1: find us at Next Picture Show dot net, follow us

1081
00:54:13,320 --> 00:54:16,520
Speaker 1: at Facebook dot com slash Next Picture Show, and follow

1082
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:18,880
Speaker 1: us on Twitter at at Next Picture pod so you

1083
00:54:19,000 --> 00:54:21,759
Speaker 1: always know when a new episode drops. Until then, we'll

1084
00:54:21,800 --> 00:54:24,520
Speaker 1: be dodging squid storms and reading only print publications to

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Speaker 1: keep that watchman feeling going.