1
00:00:15,356 --> 00:00:22,716
Speaker 1: Pushkin heads up. In this episode, I interview an old

2
00:00:22,756 --> 00:00:25,116
Speaker 1: school guy from New York who drops a lot of

3
00:00:25,276 --> 00:00:30,836
Speaker 1: f bombs. Just so you're aware, say your name the

4
00:00:30,876 --> 00:00:34,316
Speaker 1: way in Israeli would say Melia Vital and say my

5
00:00:34,436 --> 00:00:42,956
Speaker 1: name is Millia Vital in hebrewal, my name is Malcolm Glodwell.

6
00:00:43,156 --> 00:00:47,476
Speaker 1: You're listening to Revisionist History, my podcast about things overlooked

7
00:00:47,516 --> 00:00:51,636
Speaker 1: and misunderstood. So far in season four, i've talked about

8
00:00:51,756 --> 00:00:57,716
Speaker 1: grand themes, huge issues. This episode is about something very

9
00:00:57,756 --> 00:01:08,436
Speaker 1: specific a word. The word I'm interested in is hutzpah.

10
00:01:09,276 --> 00:01:12,076
Speaker 1: I decided I would like to examine the phenomenon of footspot.

11
00:01:12,796 --> 00:01:16,196
Speaker 1: Since Millie is my neighbor and in Israeli, she has

12
00:01:16,196 --> 00:01:19,956
Speaker 1: agreed to help this teach Coushia Malcolm how to say

13
00:01:20,916 --> 00:01:23,396
Speaker 1: this word appropriately. First of all, are we doing are

14
00:01:23,396 --> 00:01:25,516
Speaker 1: we doing that kind of thing in the throat that

15
00:01:25,676 --> 00:01:30,516
Speaker 1: so many the gutt do I have to the.

16
00:01:32,156 --> 00:01:36,276
Speaker 2: Soft I think we have a closer to Arabic. It's

17
00:01:36,356 --> 00:01:39,596
Speaker 2: deeper in the throat and there's a lot more contact

18
00:01:39,636 --> 00:01:40,476
Speaker 2: of the soft palate.

19
00:01:41,596 --> 00:01:45,756
Speaker 1: It's really deeper. Yeah, so so softer, not not a

20
00:01:45,836 --> 00:01:48,036
Speaker 1: whole but footspa.

21
00:01:49,276 --> 00:01:54,396
Speaker 2: No, who the this. Okay, So the sound is right,

22
00:01:55,316 --> 00:01:59,436
Speaker 2: it is deep, but the vowel is not whole. It's

23
00:01:59,596 --> 00:02:01,076
Speaker 2: who who.

24
00:02:03,236 --> 00:02:03,476
Speaker 1: Yeah.

25
00:02:03,756 --> 00:02:07,876
Speaker 2: In Hebrew there's only I A E O. There's no diphthongs,

26
00:02:07,916 --> 00:02:12,196
Speaker 2: and there's no awe in there's no book and book right,

27
00:02:12,276 --> 00:02:16,636
Speaker 2: there's only woo. So you understand what I'm talking to myself.

28
00:02:17,316 --> 00:02:19,316
Speaker 2: For me, it's very clear, because sadly I worked on

29
00:02:19,356 --> 00:02:24,116
Speaker 2: it so hard. But okay, so it's not hootspa. Yeah,

30
00:02:24,236 --> 00:02:28,516
Speaker 2: just like it's not Milli, it's meally Meali e oh ooh,

31
00:02:28,836 --> 00:02:35,716
Speaker 2: so it's who. H's the team who, not who who? Yes,

32
00:02:35,756 --> 00:02:36,716
Speaker 2: that's better enough. Who.

33
00:02:39,156 --> 00:02:42,236
Speaker 1: It strikes me that there is a lot of Hootspa

34
00:02:42,396 --> 00:02:45,076
Speaker 1: in the world at the moment, and that maybe it

35
00:02:45,156 --> 00:02:48,476
Speaker 1: would be useful to find out something more about it.

36
00:02:49,476 --> 00:02:52,036
Speaker 1: So I started with Millie and the first thing she

37
00:02:52,156 --> 00:02:56,036
Speaker 1: told me is that there isn't one hood spot. There's

38
00:02:56,076 --> 00:03:01,236
Speaker 1: actually two, the American version and the Israeli version. Hootspa

39
00:03:01,716 --> 00:03:03,996
Speaker 1: I knew, but not this other one.

40
00:03:04,556 --> 00:03:07,756
Speaker 2: Hoots Spa not bad, but it's not a paw.

41
00:03:08,196 --> 00:03:10,356
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's baa.

42
00:03:10,516 --> 00:03:15,316
Speaker 2: It's a bottle that doesn't exist sexually in England. Now

43
00:03:15,316 --> 00:03:20,556
Speaker 2: you've got to have the say, you gotta say certain Yeah,

44
00:03:20,596 --> 00:03:22,236
Speaker 2: he's hit the second syllable.

45
00:03:24,196 --> 00:03:27,716
Speaker 1: Bats it.

46
00:03:27,756 --> 00:03:29,356
Speaker 2: There's a lot of air coming out of the mouth.

47
00:03:29,436 --> 00:03:33,876
Speaker 1: And he said, why so when? Uh? But in America,

48
00:03:33,996 --> 00:03:38,876
Speaker 1: the accidents on the first syllable yeah hots right, huts

49
00:03:38,956 --> 00:03:43,556
Speaker 1: ba and huts ba and they are worlds apart and

50
00:03:43,676 --> 00:03:47,596
Speaker 1: maybe our hoods. But problem is that we've confused the two.

51
00:03:51,276 --> 00:03:53,756
Speaker 1: When I was in Los Angeles a little while back,

52
00:03:53,836 --> 00:03:56,916
Speaker 1: I went to see a Hollywood legend named Al Ruddy.

53
00:03:57,516 --> 00:04:01,396
Speaker 1: Tall guy, lean close to ninety. He lives up in

54
00:04:01,436 --> 00:04:04,836
Speaker 1: the canyons of Beverly Hills, one of those nineteen sixties

55
00:04:04,876 --> 00:04:07,996
Speaker 1: houses perched on a hillside that looks like something off

56
00:04:07,996 --> 00:04:10,676
Speaker 1: the set of a James Bond movie. I had a

57
00:04:10,756 --> 00:04:14,036
Speaker 1: specific reason to go and see Ruddy, But Ruddy is

58
00:04:14,076 --> 00:04:17,516
Speaker 1: the kind of person that when he starts talking, specific

59
00:04:17,556 --> 00:04:19,116
Speaker 1: reasons go out the window.

60
00:04:19,756 --> 00:04:21,636
Speaker 3: I was born in Canada. Also, now that I know

61
00:04:21,716 --> 00:04:23,716
Speaker 3: everything about you, I was born in Montreal. I know.

62
00:04:23,836 --> 00:04:24,356
Speaker 1: I saw that.

63
00:04:24,556 --> 00:04:27,756
Speaker 3: Yeah, I went to Montreal and then my mother, my

64
00:04:27,796 --> 00:04:30,756
Speaker 3: mother snuck over the border with she divorced with three kids.

65
00:04:31,476 --> 00:04:34,556
Speaker 3: We stuck over the border in New York. My mother

66
00:04:34,636 --> 00:04:37,596
Speaker 3: said when they asked you junior and Junior highway you

67
00:04:37,596 --> 00:04:39,556
Speaker 3: were born, saying, oh, no, what do you look like?

68
00:04:39,596 --> 00:04:41,436
Speaker 3: A fucking mor I don't know where the fuck I'm born?

69
00:04:41,516 --> 00:04:42,236
Speaker 3: You quit.

70
00:04:44,076 --> 00:04:45,876
Speaker 1: Already was the middle child.

71
00:04:45,836 --> 00:04:47,996
Speaker 3: So I was the one that worked harder for everything.

72
00:04:48,076 --> 00:04:51,196
Speaker 3: I avercat because I had an oldest sister who was beautiful,

73
00:04:51,476 --> 00:04:53,836
Speaker 3: and my brother, who was the baby. I was a

74
00:04:53,876 --> 00:04:56,676
Speaker 3: schmuck in the middle, right, So I was always working harder.

75
00:04:57,116 --> 00:04:59,876
Speaker 3: But I decided, and I learned it early, and it

76
00:04:59,996 --> 00:05:02,556
Speaker 3: was it was actually a blessing, you know. I said,

77
00:05:02,556 --> 00:05:04,476
Speaker 3: you know, I better learn how to take care of myself.

78
00:05:04,956 --> 00:05:06,956
Speaker 3: No one's going to open the fucking doors for me anyone.

79
00:05:06,956 --> 00:05:07,516
Speaker 3: I gotta do it.

80
00:05:07,596 --> 00:05:10,316
Speaker 1: Al Ruddy way, we all right away meant going to

81
00:05:10,316 --> 00:05:13,596
Speaker 1: Brooklyn Tech, then bouncing around working at a gas station,

82
00:05:13,876 --> 00:05:16,876
Speaker 1: studying architecture at USC, and winding up with a job

83
00:05:16,916 --> 00:05:19,836
Speaker 1: as a computer programmer at the Rand Corporation think tank

84
00:05:19,916 --> 00:05:23,716
Speaker 1: in Santa Monica. While he's working at Rand, Ruddy meets

85
00:05:23,716 --> 00:05:25,676
Speaker 1: an unemployed actor named Bernie Fine.

86
00:05:25,996 --> 00:05:30,276
Speaker 3: So I tell Bernie, why don't I'm not Bernie? What

87
00:05:30,316 --> 00:05:32,156
Speaker 3: the fuck they have they're not to write at a

88
00:05:32,156 --> 00:05:35,076
Speaker 3: half hour show it's a one liner. It's the simplest

89
00:05:35,076 --> 00:05:38,156
Speaker 3: format that the one act could break the high point

90
00:05:38,196 --> 00:05:39,516
Speaker 3: and he resolve in an act too.

91
00:05:40,476 --> 00:05:42,396
Speaker 1: So on the side, the two of them start to

92
00:05:42,396 --> 00:05:45,596
Speaker 1: write a television pilot, a comedy set in a prison,

93
00:05:46,196 --> 00:05:49,356
Speaker 1: not just any prison, a Nazi prisoner of war camp,

94
00:05:49,756 --> 00:05:51,716
Speaker 1: and the comic leads are the head of the prison,

95
00:05:51,836 --> 00:05:56,276
Speaker 1: Colonel Klink, and a prison guard, Sergeant Schultz, whose signature

96
00:05:56,316 --> 00:06:02,116
Speaker 1: line is I know nothing, I see nothing, I hear nothing. Somehow,

97
00:06:02,196 --> 00:06:04,876
Speaker 1: Ruddy gets the script to an agent named Mike Levy,

98
00:06:05,396 --> 00:06:08,236
Speaker 1: and Levy gets them a pitch meeting with CBS. This

99
00:06:08,476 --> 00:06:11,396
Speaker 1: was the mid nine teen sixties when CBS was known

100
00:06:11,436 --> 00:06:15,396
Speaker 1: as a Tiffany Network. It was the most prestigious television

101
00:06:15,436 --> 00:06:20,916
Speaker 1: broadcaster in the world, intellectual high class. Its president was

102
00:06:20,956 --> 00:06:22,516
Speaker 1: the legendary William Paley.

103
00:06:22,796 --> 00:06:27,836
Speaker 3: I'm sitting opposite William S. Paley, who fucking owns CBS.

104
00:06:28,276 --> 00:06:31,316
Speaker 3: The whole room, CBS guys and me and Mike is

105
00:06:31,356 --> 00:06:38,116
Speaker 3: that Mike discussed a show called Hogan's Heroes, Bill Pelley's

106
00:06:38,156 --> 00:06:40,716
Speaker 3: across the table, and Mikey says, I find the idea

107
00:06:40,756 --> 00:06:43,916
Speaker 3: of Nazis doing comedies. Those were totally reprehensible.

108
00:06:44,476 --> 00:06:46,516
Speaker 1: Mike Leavy, the agent looks over at Ruddy.

109
00:06:46,956 --> 00:06:50,636
Speaker 3: You tell him he blown away. Don't know what to

110
00:06:50,676 --> 00:06:53,436
Speaker 3: say is oh, I'll have him tell you about it.

111
00:06:53,556 --> 00:06:56,196
Speaker 3: He points to me. I never saw a fucking thing, right,

112
00:06:56,916 --> 00:07:01,036
Speaker 3: I acted out the whole show idiotic. I'm jumping up

113
00:07:01,036 --> 00:07:03,756
Speaker 3: and down. I know nothing but machine guns, and Bill

114
00:07:03,796 --> 00:07:06,436
Speaker 3: Paley starts like he can't stop laughing. I swear to

115
00:07:06,556 --> 00:07:10,116
Speaker 3: cross before I know it, the Paul romas clapping on

116
00:07:10,156 --> 00:07:13,836
Speaker 3: the other side, So he got through and I thought

117
00:07:13,876 --> 00:07:16,676
Speaker 3: it was Bill Pelly stands up. He says, I don't

118
00:07:16,676 --> 00:07:18,876
Speaker 3: know if I can ever buy that show, but I said,

119
00:07:18,916 --> 00:07:20,676
Speaker 3: I just want to commend you that that's one of

120
00:07:20,716 --> 00:07:22,516
Speaker 3: the funniest things I've ever heard.

121
00:07:25,196 --> 00:07:29,436
Speaker 1: Hogan's Heroes runs for six seasons from nineteen sixty five

122
00:07:29,476 --> 00:07:32,756
Speaker 1: to nineteen seventy one. The show wins two Emmys, has

123
00:07:32,796 --> 00:07:35,556
Speaker 1: a huge following, and makes CBS a fortune.

124
00:07:35,876 --> 00:07:39,356
Speaker 3: Oh, I say nothing. I was not here. I did

125
00:07:39,396 --> 00:07:41,516
Speaker 3: not even get up this morning.

126
00:07:46,156 --> 00:07:49,956
Speaker 1: Now, since our topic is hutzba, let us break this down.

127
00:07:52,516 --> 00:07:56,316
Speaker 1: A computer programmer named al Ruddy, who is Jewish, has

128
00:07:56,316 --> 00:07:59,076
Speaker 1: his agent, who is Jewish, set up a meeting with

129
00:07:59,116 --> 00:08:03,156
Speaker 1: Bill Paley, who is Jewish about a comedy starring two Nazis,

130
00:08:04,116 --> 00:08:08,356
Speaker 1: and Paley says, I'm Jewish, I'm not interested. But then Ruddy,

131
00:08:08,556 --> 00:08:11,316
Speaker 1: who is never who sold a screenplay before in his life,

132
00:08:11,636 --> 00:08:15,276
Speaker 1: convinces him it's actually a great idea. And by the way,

133
00:08:15,476 --> 00:08:18,876
Speaker 1: the lead Nazi in Hogan's Heroes, Colonel Klink, is played

134
00:08:18,876 --> 00:08:23,156
Speaker 1: by Werner Klemperer, Jewish whose family fled Nazi Germany in

135
00:08:23,236 --> 00:08:26,716
Speaker 1: nineteen thirty five, and the prison guard, Sergeant Schultz is

136
00:08:26,756 --> 00:08:30,596
Speaker 1: played by John Banner, Jewish who fled Europe in nineteen

137
00:08:30,636 --> 00:08:38,236
Speaker 1: thirty nine. The word hutzpa refers to audacity. This is audacious.

138
00:08:38,876 --> 00:08:41,476
Speaker 1: Ruddy would go on to write The Longest Yard, starring

139
00:08:41,476 --> 00:08:45,556
Speaker 1: Burt Reynolds, and Walker Texas Ranger starring Chuck Norris. He

140
00:08:45,676 --> 00:08:47,636
Speaker 1: was one of the producers on the two thousand and

141
00:08:47,676 --> 00:08:50,956
Speaker 1: four film Million Dollar Baby, which won a handful of oscars.

142
00:08:51,156 --> 00:08:54,036
Speaker 1: I could go on and now, sitting with him in

143
00:08:54,076 --> 00:08:56,956
Speaker 1: his kitchen as he wheeled his wheelchair back and forth

144
00:08:57,076 --> 00:09:00,596
Speaker 1: to emphasize the highlight of each of his stories, I

145
00:09:00,676 --> 00:09:05,996
Speaker 1: realized what Al Ruddy is. He is hutzpa. But this

146
00:09:06,396 --> 00:09:08,436
Speaker 1: is a very specific kind of hutzpa.

147
00:09:08,596 --> 00:09:08,756
Speaker 3: Right.

148
00:09:09,396 --> 00:09:12,716
Speaker 1: Remember this show is being made only twenty years after

149
00:09:12,756 --> 00:09:14,636
Speaker 1: the Nazis stopped terrorizing Europe.

150
00:09:15,316 --> 00:09:18,796
Speaker 3: This camp clink, this camp is a black page in

151
00:09:18,876 --> 00:09:20,156
Speaker 3: the glorious history.

152
00:09:20,236 --> 00:09:23,036
Speaker 4: Is a sad right, which I shall report when I

153
00:09:23,076 --> 00:09:23,916
Speaker 4: get back to Berlin.

154
00:09:26,556 --> 00:09:30,556
Speaker 1: Paley admired Ruddy for the way he behaves. He rewarded him.

155
00:09:30,756 --> 00:09:33,836
Speaker 1: If you and Bernie Fine were not Jewish, could you

156
00:09:33,876 --> 00:09:38,116
Speaker 1: have gotten away with it?

157
00:09:38,116 --> 00:09:39,916
Speaker 3: Didn't that to It didn't even enter my mind in

158
00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:43,076
Speaker 3: those says yeah, no, and no one asks. No one

159
00:09:43,156 --> 00:09:45,716
Speaker 3: knew that, no one, There was never an issue.

160
00:09:45,756 --> 00:09:50,276
Speaker 1: It's funny Ruddy didn't brazenly set out to violate social norms.

161
00:09:50,796 --> 00:09:52,836
Speaker 1: It didn't occur to him that there was a social

162
00:09:52,876 --> 00:09:56,916
Speaker 1: norm to violate. In America. This is what is meant

163
00:09:57,276 --> 00:10:01,796
Speaker 1: by hutzba, but not in Israel. Houts ba is a

164
00:10:01,796 --> 00:10:02,636
Speaker 1: whole different matter.

165
00:10:04,316 --> 00:10:04,796
Speaker 2: Hutzpa.

166
00:10:05,116 --> 00:10:05,596
Speaker 1: Hootspa.

167
00:10:06,076 --> 00:10:09,276
Speaker 2: Oh, you also don't say hutzpa like with this sort

168
00:10:09,316 --> 00:10:12,276
Speaker 2: of curl to it, like a cute kind of hootspa.

169
00:10:12,556 --> 00:10:17,436
Speaker 2: It's hot spot, you say, like it's a hot spot,

170
00:10:17,756 --> 00:10:22,076
Speaker 2: like what a what an insult? It's it's edgy and bitter.

171
00:10:22,236 --> 00:10:25,516
Speaker 2: It's not like she's got so much hootspot. That's a

172
00:10:25,556 --> 00:10:28,316
Speaker 2: totally different word. It has the connotation I would say

173
00:10:28,396 --> 00:10:32,996
Speaker 2: is like it's a hot spot, like someone who's someone

174
00:10:33,036 --> 00:10:39,676
Speaker 2: who has no care about anyone else's life or feelings,

175
00:10:39,796 --> 00:10:42,676
Speaker 2: or like if your child is rude to you. If

176
00:10:42,716 --> 00:10:48,316
Speaker 2: I say to Benjamin it's it's this is like as

177
00:10:48,356 --> 00:10:50,356
Speaker 2: low as it gets. He actually wants like teared up

178
00:10:50,396 --> 00:10:53,436
Speaker 2: when I said that, I could see his face like shocked. Yeah,

179
00:10:53,476 --> 00:10:55,756
Speaker 2: he knows what it means, like no manners or no

180
00:10:56,476 --> 00:11:01,476
Speaker 2: or no regard to someone else's feelings or condition. That

181
00:11:01,516 --> 00:11:03,396
Speaker 2: would be the spa.

182
00:11:03,716 --> 00:11:10,876
Speaker 1: Yeah, one word, two very different meanings, and we've been

183
00:11:10,956 --> 00:11:15,236
Speaker 1: conflating the two. I'll get into the consequences when we

184
00:11:15,276 --> 00:11:26,676
Speaker 1: come back. Let's do a second Hutzpa k study involving

185
00:11:26,796 --> 00:11:28,676
Speaker 1: an exact contemporary of Al Ruddies.

186
00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:31,436
Speaker 5: I'm not sure how to introduce my next guest. He's

187
00:11:31,476 --> 00:11:34,596
Speaker 5: a businessman with leads the most colorful life. His name

188
00:11:34,636 --> 00:11:36,636
Speaker 5: has been in the paper, is a great deal lately,

189
00:11:36,996 --> 00:11:39,996
Speaker 5: and I just met him backstage, but I'm anxious to

190
00:11:40,036 --> 00:11:43,556
Speaker 5: meet him further. We welcome, please, mister Joseph COLUMBOO.

191
00:11:46,636 --> 00:11:50,516
Speaker 1: In the late nineteen sixties, and early nineteen seventies, Colombo

192
00:11:50,596 --> 00:11:53,476
Speaker 1: began making the rounds of talk shows and news programs

193
00:11:53,556 --> 00:11:57,956
Speaker 1: in New York City. Invariably, the interview would begin with

194
00:11:58,036 --> 00:12:00,876
Speaker 1: the question of what Joseph Columbo did for a living,

195
00:12:01,596 --> 00:12:04,636
Speaker 1: and invariably his answer would be the same. Here he

196
00:12:04,756 --> 00:12:07,516
Speaker 1: is on the Dick Cavit Show in April of nineteen

197
00:12:07,556 --> 00:12:08,916
Speaker 1: seventy one, explain.

198
00:12:08,636 --> 00:12:10,236
Speaker 5: What you do for a living, as if I had

199
00:12:10,236 --> 00:12:10,756
Speaker 5: never met you.

200
00:12:10,876 --> 00:12:13,956
Speaker 6: Well, I'm a real estate salesman, and I own a

201
00:12:13,956 --> 00:12:20,516
Speaker 6: piece of a funeral home, and and that wasn't meant

202
00:12:20,556 --> 00:12:22,516
Speaker 6: to be now, funny, Vick.

203
00:12:23,316 --> 00:12:25,476
Speaker 1: You may have noticed, by the way, there's a lot

204
00:12:25,516 --> 00:12:27,996
Speaker 1: of Dick Caviot in this season of Provision is History.

205
00:12:28,556 --> 00:12:29,956
Speaker 1: I love Dick Cabot.

206
00:12:29,796 --> 00:12:32,556
Speaker 6: And anything I can do to iron a living, honestly

207
00:12:32,676 --> 00:12:37,636
Speaker 6: and sincerely, I hope so cause and an a florist,

208
00:12:37,676 --> 00:12:39,236
Speaker 6: and I own a piece of a cut room in

209
00:12:39,276 --> 00:12:41,836
Speaker 6: New York that we cut material for dresses.

210
00:12:42,956 --> 00:12:43,196
Speaker 3: Ah.

211
00:12:43,316 --> 00:12:45,876
Speaker 6: Yeah, it's a cut room. And with all these things

212
00:12:45,876 --> 00:12:49,236
Speaker 6: put together, I iron eleven. Yeah, and I worked very

213
00:12:49,276 --> 00:12:52,076
Speaker 6: hard at it, very honest and sincely.

214
00:12:53,116 --> 00:12:56,116
Speaker 1: Colombo's media tour was to promote an organization he had

215
00:12:56,156 --> 00:12:59,516
Speaker 1: started called the Italian American Civil Rights League.

216
00:12:59,836 --> 00:13:03,516
Speaker 6: Well, we believe that we are escape goats. We have

217
00:13:03,556 --> 00:13:07,556
Speaker 6: been labeled and stigmatized, and I maintain and I'll keep

218
00:13:07,596 --> 00:13:10,436
Speaker 6: saying that it's each and every Italian American throu the

219
00:13:10,476 --> 00:13:13,396
Speaker 6: United States that there is a conspiracy against.

220
00:13:13,956 --> 00:13:16,756
Speaker 1: I asked the writer Nick Peleggie about him. Maybe you

221
00:13:16,796 --> 00:13:20,076
Speaker 1: remember Pelgi from our fourth of July episode earlier this season,

222
00:13:20,396 --> 00:13:21,356
Speaker 1: and what was he like?

223
00:13:22,676 --> 00:13:25,876
Speaker 7: From everything I hear and I've seen him speak on

224
00:13:25,956 --> 00:13:30,676
Speaker 7: occasion and live in rooms with him, he was as

225
00:13:30,876 --> 00:13:35,036
Speaker 7: mild and calm and relaxed as you can imagine. He

226
00:13:35,116 --> 00:13:37,196
Speaker 7: was like a dry good salesman.

227
00:13:37,316 --> 00:13:39,916
Speaker 1: Pledge grew up with Colombo in benson Hurst, Brooklyn.

228
00:13:40,316 --> 00:13:42,836
Speaker 7: He came up with this idea of the Italian American

229
00:13:42,876 --> 00:13:46,636
Speaker 7: Civil Rights League. There are prebus was that Italians were

230
00:13:46,636 --> 00:13:50,356
Speaker 7: being stigmatized by the mafia, that there was really no

231
00:13:50,476 --> 00:13:53,836
Speaker 7: such thing as the mafia, but the media was going

232
00:13:53,876 --> 00:13:57,516
Speaker 7: after Italian Americans and denying us our right place in

233
00:13:57,556 --> 00:14:01,196
Speaker 7: the world, and we would be prejudiced against getting good

234
00:14:01,316 --> 00:14:04,516
Speaker 7: jobs or because the New York Times couldn't stop writing

235
00:14:04,516 --> 00:14:05,276
Speaker 7: the word mafia.

236
00:14:06,156 --> 00:14:10,156
Speaker 1: Now, what was Joe Colombo's real job. Aside from running

237
00:14:10,156 --> 00:14:13,436
Speaker 1: a funeral home and a cut shop and selling real estate,

238
00:14:14,236 --> 00:14:17,356
Speaker 1: he was a big time mafia don the Profaci family.

239
00:14:17,956 --> 00:14:21,716
Speaker 1: Old man Giuseppe Prafacci dies in nineteen sixty two. Colombo

240
00:14:21,756 --> 00:14:29,956
Speaker 1: takes over the organization. American Jews had The Anti Defamation

241
00:14:30,116 --> 00:14:33,356
Speaker 1: League formed in nineteen thirteen to combat the long history

242
00:14:33,356 --> 00:14:37,796
Speaker 1: of antisemitism around the world. African Americans start the NAACP

243
00:14:37,876 --> 00:14:41,036
Speaker 1: in nineteen oh nine because black people were being openly

244
00:14:41,236 --> 00:14:46,316
Speaker 1: and ruthlessly deny their civil rights. The Italian American Civil

245
00:14:46,396 --> 00:14:49,356
Speaker 1: Rights League was started by a mobster upset that the

246
00:14:49,396 --> 00:14:58,156
Speaker 1: media was calling him a mobster. In April of nineteen seventy,

247
00:14:58,436 --> 00:15:01,156
Speaker 1: Columbo and a group of his associates started picketing the

248
00:15:01,196 --> 00:15:05,636
Speaker 1: Manhattan headquarters of the FBI. That protest eventually grows to

249
00:15:05,716 --> 00:15:08,996
Speaker 1: five thousand people. They come up with a logo in

250
00:15:09,116 --> 00:15:13,356
Speaker 1: evoking Christopher Columbus, the greatest Italian immigrant of them all.

251
00:15:13,996 --> 00:15:17,076
Speaker 1: By the summer of nineteen seventy they have forty five

252
00:15:17,196 --> 00:15:20,956
Speaker 1: thousand dues paying members. They throw themselves a big benefit

253
00:15:21,036 --> 00:15:25,396
Speaker 1: concert in Madison Square Garden, starring, of course, Frank Sinatra.

254
00:15:26,196 --> 00:15:29,716
Speaker 1: They go after Alka Seltzer for their most famous TV commercial,

255
00:15:30,076 --> 00:15:33,356
Speaker 1: in which an Italian man, overseen by his doting wife,

256
00:15:33,596 --> 00:15:35,956
Speaker 1: eats one too many spicy meatballs.

257
00:15:36,556 --> 00:15:39,516
Speaker 7: Sometimes you eat more than you should and when it's spicy.

258
00:15:39,556 --> 00:15:43,636
Speaker 5: Besides, Mamma Mia, do you need alca seltzer as.

259
00:15:43,436 --> 00:15:49,196
Speaker 1: Italians eating meatballs, according to Joe Colombo, perpetuates harmful stereotypes

260
00:15:49,396 --> 00:15:50,276
Speaker 1: about Italians.

261
00:15:50,516 --> 00:15:53,276
Speaker 3: Mom of me, that's a spicy meat board.

262
00:15:56,436 --> 00:15:59,876
Speaker 1: Here's my favorite story involving Joe Colombo. In the late

263
00:15:59,956 --> 00:16:02,796
Speaker 1: nineteen sixties, Johnny Carson was the king of late night

264
00:16:02,836 --> 00:16:05,836
Speaker 1: TV and one of the most famous television personalities in

265
00:16:05,876 --> 00:16:10,636
Speaker 1: the country. According to his former attorney Bushkin, Carson was

266
00:16:10,676 --> 00:16:13,356
Speaker 1: out drinking one night at Jilly's, a bar in Manhattan

267
00:16:13,396 --> 00:16:16,596
Speaker 1: run by a close friend of Frank Sinatra's Jilly Rizzo.

268
00:16:17,156 --> 00:16:19,796
Speaker 1: This is Bushkin telling the story on the Artie Lang

269
00:16:19,876 --> 00:16:20,836
Speaker 1: Show a few years ago.

270
00:16:21,156 --> 00:16:24,156
Speaker 8: It was on I think fifty second and eighth, a

271
00:16:24,236 --> 00:16:27,676
Speaker 8: famous watering hole, and Johnny was in there one night

272
00:16:27,716 --> 00:16:28,436
Speaker 8: with McMahon.

273
00:16:28,716 --> 00:16:34,236
Speaker 1: Johnny being Johnny Carson, McMahon being his sidekick, Ed McMahon.

274
00:16:33,796 --> 00:16:37,076
Speaker 8: And they try to pick up the wrong girls happened

275
00:16:37,116 --> 00:16:40,876
Speaker 8: to be the wife and sister of a well known

276
00:16:41,636 --> 00:16:43,716
Speaker 8: mafioso type of character.

277
00:16:44,156 --> 00:16:46,036
Speaker 3: Who was not sensitive about stuff, like.

278
00:16:46,316 --> 00:16:51,876
Speaker 1: Not happy, irritated, you might say. Carson ends up being

279
00:16:51,916 --> 00:16:54,676
Speaker 1: thrown down the stairs at Jilly's. He's so banged up

280
00:16:54,796 --> 00:16:57,436
Speaker 1: there's no way he can go on television. Then he

281
00:16:57,516 --> 00:16:59,996
Speaker 1: learns that the mobster in question has put out a

282
00:17:00,036 --> 00:17:01,236
Speaker 1: contract on his life.

283
00:17:01,636 --> 00:17:05,156
Speaker 8: What happened was they went looking for Johnny. Johnny holed

284
00:17:05,236 --> 00:17:07,796
Speaker 8: up in the apartment at U N Plaza.

285
00:17:08,236 --> 00:17:11,876
Speaker 1: He's hiding out. He takes the week off work. He's petrified.

286
00:17:12,356 --> 00:17:17,956
Speaker 1: So what happens Joe Colombo makes a deal with Carson's network, NBC.

287
00:17:18,316 --> 00:17:21,276
Speaker 8: The Columbus Day Parade was about to come up. It

288
00:17:21,396 --> 00:17:24,636
Speaker 8: was like three weeks away and no network who would

289
00:17:24,636 --> 00:17:27,356
Speaker 8: agree to cover it then, because they knew it was

290
00:17:27,396 --> 00:17:30,916
Speaker 8: the five families of New York that were sponsoring this

291
00:17:30,996 --> 00:17:34,556
Speaker 8: parade to make the Italian Americans look, you know. So

292
00:17:34,676 --> 00:17:38,356
Speaker 8: Carson's hiding out and a deal was struck. If NBC

293
00:17:38,516 --> 00:17:42,836
Speaker 8: covers the parade, they let Carson go. So that year,

294
00:17:42,956 --> 00:17:45,916
Speaker 8: NBC is the only network that covered the parade.

295
00:17:46,196 --> 00:17:47,116
Speaker 3: Carson gets.

296
00:17:48,556 --> 00:17:52,196
Speaker 1: Oh, and what happens the following year, nineteen seventy one,

297
00:17:52,716 --> 00:17:56,636
Speaker 1: when Joe Columbo stages the second, even more elaborate Columbus

298
00:17:56,676 --> 00:17:59,916
Speaker 1: Day event, intended to show the world that the Italian

299
00:17:59,956 --> 00:18:03,516
Speaker 1: American community of New York is peaceful and law abiding.

300
00:18:04,596 --> 00:18:05,676
Speaker 1: Someone shoots him.

301
00:18:05,996 --> 00:18:06,476
Speaker 3: That's right.

302
00:18:06,516 --> 00:18:08,636
Speaker 7: They had the first one a Columbus Circle. In the

303
00:18:08,676 --> 00:18:11,196
Speaker 7: second one, he shot Joe Colombo. I mean, it's just insane.

304
00:18:11,556 --> 00:18:14,716
Speaker 1: But you couldn't make this up, like oh at the

305
00:18:15,516 --> 00:18:16,036
Speaker 1: grants too.

306
00:18:16,196 --> 00:18:18,996
Speaker 7: They could have done at any location in the city

307
00:18:19,356 --> 00:18:21,716
Speaker 7: besides Columbus Circle.

308
00:18:22,356 --> 00:18:25,036
Speaker 3: But in the middle of a rally.

309
00:18:24,956 --> 00:18:29,436
Speaker 1: Of a rally intended to whitewash the Italian American community,

310
00:18:29,516 --> 00:18:32,236
Speaker 1: somebody offs the guy trying to whitewash that. What I

311
00:18:32,276 --> 00:18:37,116
Speaker 1: mean is this is hootsba all over the place. But

312
00:18:37,236 --> 00:18:39,556
Speaker 1: it's not Al Ruddy's kind of hoods. But is it

313
00:18:39,996 --> 00:18:42,996
Speaker 1: Having a Jewish actor play a Nazi prison guard who

314
00:18:43,116 --> 00:18:46,436
Speaker 1: runs around saying in the middle of the Holocaust, I

315
00:18:46,516 --> 00:18:50,076
Speaker 1: know nothing, I hear nothing, I see nothing in a

316
00:18:50,156 --> 00:18:55,156
Speaker 1: primetime television sitcom is well, it's kind of amazing. But

317
00:18:55,276 --> 00:18:59,916
Speaker 1: Joe Colombo, mob boss starting the Italian American Civil Rights League,

318
00:19:00,316 --> 00:19:03,676
Speaker 1: this is hutsba on a whole other level. For goodness sake,

319
00:19:04,036 --> 00:19:07,116
Speaker 1: At the time he was shot, Colombo was under federal

320
00:19:07,156 --> 00:19:10,876
Speaker 1: indictment on charges of controlling a ten million dollar a

321
00:19:10,996 --> 00:19:17,036
Speaker 1: year gambling syndicate. This is not audacity, This is shamelessness,

322
00:19:17,556 --> 00:19:28,556
Speaker 1: the other kind of hutzba hutzpah. In the Book of Genesis,

323
00:19:28,996 --> 00:19:32,076
Speaker 1: there is a famous passage where the prophet Abraham speaks

324
00:19:32,076 --> 00:19:35,956
Speaker 1: to God about the moral outrages in Sodom and Gomorrah.

325
00:19:36,436 --> 00:19:40,236
Speaker 1: God wants to destroy both cities, but Abraham says, wait,

326
00:19:40,636 --> 00:19:43,476
Speaker 1: what if there are fifty righteous people in Sodom and Gomorrah?

327
00:19:44,116 --> 00:19:46,996
Speaker 1: Will you really sweep those cities away and not spare

328
00:19:47,036 --> 00:19:50,116
Speaker 1: them for the sake of those fifty righteous people. So

329
00:19:50,236 --> 00:19:54,236
Speaker 1: the Lord says, okay, if you can find fifty righteous men,

330
00:19:54,476 --> 00:19:58,676
Speaker 1: I will spare the cities. Abraham then says, what if

331
00:19:58,716 --> 00:20:01,636
Speaker 1: there are only forty five righteous men? You wouldn't want

332
00:20:01,636 --> 00:20:05,156
Speaker 1: to kill forty five perfectly innocent men for the sake

333
00:20:05,196 --> 00:20:08,236
Speaker 1: of five at the margin, and God says, you're right,

334
00:20:08,356 --> 00:20:11,436
Speaker 1: let's sake it forty five, to which Abraham responds, why

335
00:20:11,476 --> 00:20:14,876
Speaker 1: not thirty? I mean same logic. God says, okay, they

336
00:20:14,956 --> 00:20:18,796
Speaker 1: keep going. In the end, Abraham gets him down to ten.

337
00:20:20,796 --> 00:20:24,756
Speaker 1: Abraham is being very Israeli. Here, Israel is what is

338
00:20:24,756 --> 00:20:28,196
Speaker 1: called a low power distance culture, meaning that it's a

339
00:20:28,236 --> 00:20:31,436
Speaker 1: place where there is very little respect for hierarchy or

340
00:20:31,596 --> 00:20:36,756
Speaker 1: formality in social interaction. France is the opposite kind of place,

341
00:20:37,276 --> 00:20:40,916
Speaker 1: a high power distance culture. Nobody just calls up God

342
00:20:40,996 --> 00:20:44,236
Speaker 1: directly in France. In France, Abraham would have had to

343
00:20:44,276 --> 00:20:48,196
Speaker 1: file an application with the Department of Divine Communication, wait

344
00:20:48,276 --> 00:20:51,076
Speaker 1: three months for an appointment, then present some kind of

345
00:20:51,116 --> 00:20:53,956
Speaker 1: formal legal writ on behalf of the righteous of Gomorrah.

346
00:20:54,916 --> 00:21:01,356
Speaker 1: Not in Israel. Here's another example of low power distance

347
00:21:01,396 --> 00:21:04,836
Speaker 1: at work in Israel. It's the word new n you.

348
00:21:05,916 --> 00:21:09,876
Speaker 1: New is what linguists call a reactive token, word used

349
00:21:09,876 --> 00:21:13,556
Speaker 1: in conversation by the party that's doing the listening. Uh

350
00:21:13,636 --> 00:21:17,956
Speaker 1: huh is a reactive token, so is really? The point

351
00:21:18,196 --> 00:21:22,396
Speaker 1: of a reactive token is to signal involvement without claiming

352
00:21:22,396 --> 00:21:26,476
Speaker 1: the floor from the speaker. I understand, I'm interested, keep going.

353
00:21:27,156 --> 00:21:31,876
Speaker 1: But new is an unusual reactive token because it's not neutral.

354
00:21:32,236 --> 00:21:35,836
Speaker 1: It's not I'm listening. It means hurry up, get to

355
00:21:35,916 --> 00:21:42,036
Speaker 1: the point. New new now is new polite in virtually

356
00:21:42,076 --> 00:21:44,596
Speaker 1: all cultures in the world. Of course, the answer would

357
00:21:44,596 --> 00:21:48,756
Speaker 1: be No. New is not some gentle conversational nudge. It's

358
00:21:48,756 --> 00:21:53,476
Speaker 1: a hijacking. The listener is interrupting the speaker in order

359
00:21:53,556 --> 00:21:56,676
Speaker 1: to control the pace of the narrative. But in Israel

360
00:21:57,076 --> 00:22:01,236
Speaker 1: this is not necessarily true. The Israeli linguist Isle Maschler

361
00:22:01,516 --> 00:22:06,676
Speaker 1: has written extensively on new. She says quote. By exhibiting

362
00:22:06,756 --> 00:22:10,396
Speaker 1: their impatience with the movement towards the climax of a story,

363
00:22:10,916 --> 00:22:13,356
Speaker 1: to the point of taking the liberty of controlling the

364
00:22:13,396 --> 00:22:18,756
Speaker 1: flow of another's discourse, hearers can show maximal involvement in

365
00:22:18,836 --> 00:22:22,436
Speaker 1: the narrative, meaning we in Israel have no need to

366
00:22:22,476 --> 00:22:25,676
Speaker 1: beat around the bush with neutral reactive tokens. We're a

367
00:22:25,716 --> 00:22:29,916
Speaker 1: tiny country with zero power distance. What happens tell me

368
00:22:30,236 --> 00:22:33,836
Speaker 1: I can't wait any longer. In Abraham's argument with God,

369
00:22:34,116 --> 00:22:38,436
Speaker 1: Abraham talks God down very methodically, fifty righteous men to

370
00:22:38,516 --> 00:22:42,276
Speaker 1: forty five to forty to thirty to twenty, and then ten,

371
00:22:42,756 --> 00:22:45,516
Speaker 1: and surely, right around the forty mark, when it would

372
00:22:45,516 --> 00:22:48,876
Speaker 1: have been obvious to any omniscient entity where Abraham was going.

373
00:22:49,436 --> 00:22:52,836
Speaker 1: God must have interrupted. No, I love you, Abraham, you

374
00:22:52,956 --> 00:22:54,916
Speaker 1: know that there is no need to drag.

375
00:22:54,716 --> 00:22:55,276
Speaker 3: This out.

376
00:22:58,036 --> 00:23:00,676
Speaker 1: My friend Milly says that since coming to America, she

377
00:23:00,756 --> 00:23:03,636
Speaker 1: has struggled with the transition to a land of excessive

378
00:23:03,676 --> 00:23:07,356
Speaker 1: social nicety, like this past winter when she was dealing

379
00:23:07,436 --> 00:23:08,476
Speaker 1: with her children's school.

380
00:23:09,116 --> 00:23:11,476
Speaker 2: If I say, for example, you know, can we have

381
00:23:11,636 --> 00:23:15,036
Speaker 2: less snow days? Like even if there's a snow day, like,

382
00:23:15,036 --> 00:23:17,756
Speaker 2: can't you just leave the school open? I'm just asking.

383
00:23:18,276 --> 00:23:21,236
Speaker 2: My husband says, that's hot spot, Like you don't think

384
00:23:21,276 --> 00:23:23,396
Speaker 2: about what their point of view is. You don't think

385
00:23:23,396 --> 00:23:25,356
Speaker 2: about what the teachers have to do to get to school,

386
00:23:25,356 --> 00:23:27,356
Speaker 2: you don't think about their safety, you don't think about

387
00:23:27,356 --> 00:23:30,516
Speaker 2: the other kids. I'm not true, but I just want

388
00:23:30,516 --> 00:23:32,636
Speaker 2: to know the like why can't I just ask the question?

389
00:23:32,756 --> 00:23:35,156
Speaker 1: So that's you know, Yes, Let's say you were in

390
00:23:35,196 --> 00:23:38,956
Speaker 1: Israel and the same scenario. I mean, I realize it's

391
00:23:38,956 --> 00:23:41,396
Speaker 1: not snow days in Israel. But suppose you're making the

392
00:23:41,436 --> 00:23:45,356
Speaker 1: same request at the school and I am the principal

393
00:23:45,396 --> 00:23:47,236
Speaker 1: of the school and you're asked, I would like you

394
00:23:47,276 --> 00:23:49,676
Speaker 1: to ask me, as an ISRAELI ask me why the

395
00:23:49,716 --> 00:23:50,876
Speaker 1: school can't stay over more?

396
00:23:51,156 --> 00:23:55,316
Speaker 2: Say excuse me, you know my kids at home, I

397
00:23:55,356 --> 00:23:57,316
Speaker 2: don't have the time to take care of them. They

398
00:23:57,316 --> 00:23:59,836
Speaker 2: need to be inside the school. You need to keep

399
00:23:59,876 --> 00:24:02,156
Speaker 2: the school open so I can leave my kids there.

400
00:24:02,196 --> 00:24:04,316
Speaker 2: And everybody else agrees with me. You want me to ask,

401
00:24:04,316 --> 00:24:06,036
Speaker 2: I'm going to get twenty people who agree with me.

402
00:24:06,196 --> 00:24:09,756
Speaker 2: Do you want to This would be like not and

403
00:24:10,076 --> 00:24:11,676
Speaker 2: this would be very nice, by the way.

404
00:24:11,516 --> 00:24:14,916
Speaker 1: And the principle in Israel would respond her.

405
00:24:17,196 --> 00:24:21,036
Speaker 2: Excuse me, I'm not working for you. I'm running a school.

406
00:24:21,676 --> 00:24:24,956
Speaker 2: I have a long way to come from home. Driving

407
00:24:24,996 --> 00:24:30,236
Speaker 2: in the snow is not easy, so please. And also

408
00:24:30,476 --> 00:24:33,676
Speaker 2: there's also insurance and all things that you don't think about,

409
00:24:33,996 --> 00:24:36,996
Speaker 2: So please, you know what, call me later after I

410
00:24:37,116 --> 00:24:39,716
Speaker 2: put my own kids down, and we'll talk on the phone. Okay,

411
00:24:39,916 --> 00:24:42,716
Speaker 2: this would be the conversation. She wouldn't hate me. She

412
00:24:42,756 --> 00:24:45,516
Speaker 2: would just like continue arguing with me, and then she'll

413
00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:48,196
Speaker 2: tell me to shut up. But you wouldn't like here.

414
00:24:48,316 --> 00:24:50,836
Speaker 2: They don't even like answer my email.

415
00:24:50,876 --> 00:25:00,796
Speaker 1: It's so embarrassing. So we have two very different scenarios here, HOOTSPA.

416
00:25:01,596 --> 00:25:04,716
Speaker 1: That's already convincing Bill Pelly to green light Hogan's heroes,

417
00:25:05,236 --> 00:25:08,596
Speaker 1: and Israeli would look at that and say, already's just

418
00:25:08,636 --> 00:25:13,116
Speaker 1: being direct. So what But Joe Colombo starting the Italian

419
00:25:13,156 --> 00:25:16,636
Speaker 1: American Civil Rights League. That is not Abraham arguing with

420
00:25:16,716 --> 00:25:19,596
Speaker 1: God to save the righteous of Sodom and Gomorrah. That

421
00:25:19,756 --> 00:25:23,036
Speaker 1: is not new. That is not why can't the schools

422
00:25:23,036 --> 00:25:26,076
Speaker 1: stay open on a snow day? That is an uffront.

423
00:25:26,796 --> 00:25:30,036
Speaker 1: It's not the I do something and i'm you know,

424
00:25:30,076 --> 00:25:33,476
Speaker 1: a dog has no who's ba right, a dog that's good?

425
00:25:33,516 --> 00:25:36,436
Speaker 2: That was not bad, getting very close, very close.

426
00:25:36,596 --> 00:25:39,876
Speaker 1: But the thing that's distinctive about this is the person

427
00:25:40,236 --> 00:25:43,796
Speaker 1: who is completely unencumbered by shame exactly.

428
00:25:43,436 --> 00:25:45,036
Speaker 2: Well, shame has nothing to do with it. They don't.

429
00:25:45,436 --> 00:25:48,436
Speaker 2: They're so beyond shame. They don't even see they don't

430
00:25:48,476 --> 00:25:52,076
Speaker 2: even see you to feel shame. It's their point of view,

431
00:25:52,116 --> 00:25:54,236
Speaker 2: without any regard to anyone.

432
00:25:53,996 --> 00:26:01,116
Speaker 1: Else's life, without regard to anyone else's life. Remember that,

433
00:26:09,356 --> 00:26:12,036
Speaker 1: not long after I spoke with Milli Avatol, there was

434
00:26:12,076 --> 00:26:14,596
Speaker 1: a hearing in front of three federal judges at a

435
00:26:14,636 --> 00:26:17,996
Speaker 1: courthouse in San Francisco. It was about the treatment of

436
00:26:18,116 --> 00:26:22,196
Speaker 1: migrant children detained at the border. At issue was whether

437
00:26:22,236 --> 00:26:25,956
Speaker 1: the conditions under which the children were being held violated

438
00:26:26,036 --> 00:26:30,036
Speaker 1: a previous legal commitment made by the government to provide

439
00:26:30,476 --> 00:26:34,996
Speaker 1: safe and sanitary conditions in detention centers. The Department of

440
00:26:35,156 --> 00:26:38,716
Speaker 1: Justice sent an attorney, Sarah Fabian, to make the case

441
00:26:38,716 --> 00:26:41,596
Speaker 1: that the government was in compliance with the safe and

442
00:26:41,636 --> 00:26:46,636
Speaker 1: sanitary standard. Her principal argument was that the term safe

443
00:26:46,636 --> 00:26:50,196
Speaker 1: and sanitary didn't have an explicit definition.

444
00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:53,996
Speaker 4: And that's any number of things might fall under those categories.

445
00:26:54,196 --> 00:26:58,036
Speaker 1: That's Fabian, And this is one of the judges, Marcia Burzon.

446
00:26:58,556 --> 00:27:02,676
Speaker 9: Yes, but sleep surely does. Right. You can't be safe

447
00:27:03,236 --> 00:27:06,476
Speaker 9: and sanitary or safe as a human being if you

448
00:27:06,516 --> 00:27:10,036
Speaker 9: can't sleep well. An you sent in your breeze, it

449
00:27:10,036 --> 00:27:13,396
Speaker 9: doesn't say anything about sleeping, so therefore there's nothing in

450
00:27:13,436 --> 00:27:14,956
Speaker 9: here about being able to sleep.

451
00:27:15,556 --> 00:27:19,276
Speaker 1: The children, it turned out, didn't have beds or blankets

452
00:27:19,676 --> 00:27:22,276
Speaker 1: or in some cases even room to lie down. So

453
00:27:22,396 --> 00:27:25,236
Speaker 1: Burzon wonders, how is that not a violation of the

454
00:27:25,276 --> 00:27:27,596
Speaker 1: agreement to provide decent living conditions?

455
00:27:28,316 --> 00:27:31,916
Speaker 4: And Fabian answers, I think the concern there is, your honor.

456
00:27:32,036 --> 00:27:35,476
Speaker 4: The court finding that sleep, for example, falls under is

457
00:27:35,556 --> 00:27:39,276
Speaker 4: relevant to a finding of no safe and sanitary conditions.

458
00:27:39,316 --> 00:27:43,116
Speaker 4: It is one thing, but the ultimate conclusion is safe

459
00:27:43,156 --> 00:27:45,756
Speaker 4: and sanitary is a singular category in the agreement.

460
00:27:46,756 --> 00:27:49,116
Speaker 1: You probably need to be a lawyer to understand what

461
00:27:49,156 --> 00:27:51,916
Speaker 1: Fabian is saying. And I'm not a lawyer, so I'm

462
00:27:51,956 --> 00:27:54,276
Speaker 1: going to have to guess. The government's argument goes like

463
00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:58,476
Speaker 1: this sleep is one thing safe and sanitary or another.

464
00:27:58,916 --> 00:28:01,596
Speaker 1: If the agreement had meant for sleep to fall under

465
00:28:01,596 --> 00:28:05,236
Speaker 1: the requirement of safe and sanitary, it would have said so.

466
00:28:05,276 --> 00:28:10,036
Speaker 1: Then Judge William Fletcher chimes in, maybe sleep wasn't explicitly

467
00:28:10,076 --> 00:28:13,996
Speaker 1: part of the safe and sanitary definition because it's too obvious.

468
00:28:14,756 --> 00:28:18,356
Speaker 10: I mean, it may be that they don't get super

469
00:28:18,436 --> 00:28:23,036
Speaker 10: thread counts Egyptian linens. I get that, but the testimony

470
00:28:23,196 --> 00:28:27,756
Speaker 10: that the district judge believed was it's really cold. In fact,

471
00:28:27,836 --> 00:28:30,476
Speaker 10: it gets colder when we complain about is being cold.

472
00:28:30,876 --> 00:28:34,556
Speaker 10: We're sports to sleep crowded with the lights on all

473
00:28:34,636 --> 00:28:37,836
Speaker 10: night long, and all you to put us on is

474
00:28:37,836 --> 00:28:41,076
Speaker 10: the concrete floor with an aluminum Lincoln. I mean, no

475
00:28:41,116 --> 00:28:44,676
Speaker 10: one would argue that this is secure and sanitary.

476
00:28:44,756 --> 00:28:47,276
Speaker 4: Yer, And I think what I'm arguing is that the

477
00:28:47,716 --> 00:28:51,756
Speaker 4: way that the district cart reached the conclusion was to

478
00:28:51,876 --> 00:28:56,596
Speaker 4: say these these specific items, and I think I will acknowledge.

479
00:28:56,596 --> 00:28:59,436
Speaker 4: I think sleep is the more difficult end of what

480
00:28:59,476 --> 00:29:00,076
Speaker 4: I'm arguing.

481
00:29:00,716 --> 00:29:03,996
Speaker 1: Sleep is the more difficult end of what I'm arguing.

482
00:29:04,516 --> 00:29:07,716
Speaker 10: You think cold all night long, lights on all night,

483
00:29:07,756 --> 00:29:09,836
Speaker 10: now sleep on the concrete, and you got an aluminum

484
00:29:09,876 --> 00:29:12,716
Speaker 10: foil blanket. I think I find that inconceivable that the

485
00:29:12,756 --> 00:29:16,156
Speaker 10: government would say that that is safe and sanitary.

486
00:29:16,316 --> 00:29:20,836
Speaker 1: From sleeping blankets. The discussion moved on to toothpaste, toothbrushes,

487
00:29:21,236 --> 00:29:21,756
Speaker 1: and soap.

488
00:29:22,556 --> 00:29:25,756
Speaker 10: It wasn't you know, a high class milled soap. It

489
00:29:25,876 --> 00:29:28,956
Speaker 10: was soap, and that sounds all that's part of safe

490
00:29:28,956 --> 00:29:29,676
Speaker 10: and sanitary?

491
00:29:30,356 --> 00:29:31,956
Speaker 3: Are are you disagreeing with that?

492
00:29:33,436 --> 00:29:36,716
Speaker 4: I'm What I'm disagreeing with is that the court ultimately

493
00:29:36,796 --> 00:29:37,836
Speaker 4: concluded these things.

494
00:29:38,236 --> 00:29:47,356
Speaker 1: Yes, she was disagreeing with that. All of this went

495
00:29:47,396 --> 00:29:50,476
Speaker 1: on for some time. I would encourage you to listen

496
00:29:50,476 --> 00:29:53,036
Speaker 1: to the full hearing for yourself, since if you are

497
00:29:53,036 --> 00:29:56,436
Speaker 1: an American, it was your government, paid for by your

498
00:29:56,476 --> 00:30:00,596
Speaker 1: tax dollars, that was doing the arguing, and ask yourself

499
00:30:01,436 --> 00:30:07,036
Speaker 1: how did it come to this? There are a thousand answers, obviously,

500
00:30:07,676 --> 00:30:09,596
Speaker 1: but maybe one of them is it. Over the years,

501
00:30:09,676 --> 00:30:13,836
Speaker 1: our moral vocabulary has become impoverished, which is a problem

502
00:30:14,156 --> 00:30:17,436
Speaker 1: because you cannot make sense of things that you cannot describe,

503
00:30:17,956 --> 00:30:22,716
Speaker 1: and lumping together audacity and shamelessness creates a loophole large

504
00:30:22,796 --> 00:30:31,356
Speaker 1: enough to drive a tank through. One last question, what

505
00:30:31,516 --> 00:30:35,756
Speaker 1: happens when Hutsba and huts Bah go head to head

506
00:30:36,276 --> 00:30:39,836
Speaker 1: when they meet each other in the field of battle? Well,

507
00:30:40,156 --> 00:30:44,876
Speaker 1: it happened famously in nineteen seventy. Already at that point

508
00:30:44,956 --> 00:30:48,236
Speaker 1: was working at Paramount Pictures. That was the era when

509
00:30:48,356 --> 00:30:51,676
Speaker 1: Robert Evans was the head of production at Paramount, and

510
00:30:51,716 --> 00:30:54,436
Speaker 1: the studio was on maybe the greatest run of any

511
00:30:54,556 --> 00:31:00,036
Speaker 1: studio ever, Love Story, Three Days of the Condor, Rosemary's Baby, Chinatown,

512
00:31:00,516 --> 00:31:04,636
Speaker 1: on and on. Already, in typical Alreaddy fashion, had just

513
00:31:04,716 --> 00:31:07,516
Speaker 1: talked himself into a big job there as a producer

514
00:31:08,236 --> 00:31:11,436
Speaker 1: a reporter to do a piece on him. He asked, Ruddy,

515
00:31:11,996 --> 00:31:15,516
Speaker 1: after you did Hogan's Heroes, what did you do next?

516
00:31:16,236 --> 00:31:19,036
Speaker 3: Oh? No, that's all I did. That's it. He puts

517
00:31:19,036 --> 00:31:21,436
Speaker 3: the pedal. Can I go off the rekler for a

518
00:31:21,436 --> 00:31:24,196
Speaker 3: second with you? He said, how the fuck did you

519
00:31:24,196 --> 00:31:27,756
Speaker 3: get in here? I know guys can't get in that

520
00:31:27,836 --> 00:31:31,556
Speaker 3: gate who been here twenty years? Kick in? I said, listen,

521
00:31:32,276 --> 00:31:34,556
Speaker 3: neither were off the rugged. I had no idea what

522
00:31:34,596 --> 00:31:37,996
Speaker 3: the fector. I've never developed a screenplay. I did one

523
00:31:38,076 --> 00:31:41,476
Speaker 3: half hour show. Okay, I'm the dumbest guy on this

524
00:31:41,556 --> 00:31:43,956
Speaker 3: lot at the moment. I won't be for long, but

525
00:31:44,156 --> 00:31:45,236
Speaker 3: just don't write in the art of me.

526
00:31:45,836 --> 00:31:50,716
Speaker 1: Still with the Hootspa. Around this time, Paramount, almost by accident,

527
00:31:51,036 --> 00:31:53,276
Speaker 1: got the film rights to a novel by a writer

528
00:31:53,396 --> 00:31:58,356
Speaker 1: named Mario Puzo. The novel was The Godfather. No One

529
00:31:58,356 --> 00:32:01,236
Speaker 1: had high hopes for the movie since the mobster genre

530
00:32:01,316 --> 00:32:03,996
Speaker 1: scene played out, so they gave it to the new

531
00:32:04,076 --> 00:32:07,596
Speaker 1: guy ready to produce, in hopes he could bring it

532
00:32:07,636 --> 00:32:13,116
Speaker 1: in on time and underby. Almost immediately, trouble began with

533
00:32:13,156 --> 00:32:19,796
Speaker 1: the Godfather project, trouble from Joe Colombo because Colombo was

534
00:32:19,836 --> 00:32:23,476
Speaker 1: not at all happy about the movie. They were death threats,

535
00:32:23,956 --> 00:32:28,356
Speaker 1: union problems, shady guys followed Ruddy around the window of

536
00:32:28,396 --> 00:32:31,836
Speaker 1: his car was smashed. The corporate headquarters of the company

537
00:32:31,836 --> 00:32:35,636
Speaker 1: that owned Paramount had to be evacuated twice because of

538
00:32:35,716 --> 00:32:39,876
Speaker 1: bomb threats, and then the Italian American Civil Rights League

539
00:32:40,036 --> 00:32:42,276
Speaker 1: called up Ruddy's boss, Robert Evans.

540
00:32:42,676 --> 00:32:46,476
Speaker 3: The Lee called Bob Evans up and threatened him, we

541
00:32:46,516 --> 00:32:48,556
Speaker 3: didn't want that movie. He made if that movie made,

542
00:32:48,956 --> 00:32:52,316
Speaker 3: someone's gonna get height. So Bob called me, will you

543
00:32:52,316 --> 00:32:55,036
Speaker 3: go see the sky to your columb These people are crazy.

544
00:32:55,556 --> 00:32:59,556
Speaker 1: Ruddy calls up the Godfather's author Mario Puzzo, says, come

545
00:32:59,596 --> 00:33:00,756
Speaker 1: with me to meet Joe Colombo.

546
00:33:01,156 --> 00:33:04,236
Speaker 3: He said, out, are you crazy? You don't understand I

547
00:33:04,276 --> 00:33:07,116
Speaker 3: write about those people. I never want to be involved,

548
00:33:07,716 --> 00:33:10,836
Speaker 3: and you'd be very careful, he evolved, because these are

549
00:33:10,876 --> 00:33:13,436
Speaker 3: not people you can tour with. The bullshit you're gonna

550
00:33:13,476 --> 00:33:15,476
Speaker 3: get in a lot of trouble. So to answer your question,

551
00:33:15,676 --> 00:33:17,396
Speaker 3: I am not like I'm gonna go up tell him

552
00:33:17,436 --> 00:33:18,436
Speaker 3: you don't even know me.

553
00:33:19,036 --> 00:33:22,316
Speaker 1: So Ruddy says, okay, I'll do it myself. He goes

554
00:33:22,356 --> 00:33:25,236
Speaker 1: to the offices of the Italian American Civil Rights League,

555
00:33:25,596 --> 00:33:28,036
Speaker 1: meets up with Colombo and his guys Brooklyn.

556
00:33:28,116 --> 00:33:30,276
Speaker 3: To Brooklyn, looks like half of them are on parole,

557
00:33:30,316 --> 00:33:32,796
Speaker 3: you know, with the lump under of the jacket.

558
00:33:32,996 --> 00:33:36,076
Speaker 1: They tell him they don't want the movie made. It's

559
00:33:36,116 --> 00:33:40,516
Speaker 1: bad for the Italians. Ruddy responds, you know what, I'll

560
00:33:40,556 --> 00:33:43,236
Speaker 1: let you read the script. Come to the Paramount office

561
00:33:43,236 --> 00:33:47,276
Speaker 1: in New York. Colombo shows up with three henchmen. Ruddy

562
00:33:47,436 --> 00:33:49,956
Speaker 1: hands in the script. It's one hundred and fifty five

563
00:33:50,036 --> 00:33:50,676
Speaker 1: pages long.

564
00:33:50,836 --> 00:33:54,756
Speaker 3: He puts on thervent flank. My classes goes the page.

565
00:33:54,796 --> 00:33:57,636
Speaker 3: When his sister looks at for about five minutes, what

566
00:33:57,756 --> 00:34:00,636
Speaker 3: does this mean? Fade in as well. The screen's black

567
00:34:00,676 --> 00:34:03,116
Speaker 3: and event I said, I raise, there's no way the

568
00:34:03,156 --> 00:34:07,396
Speaker 3: guy's going to page Oh, I can't read with these glasses.

569
00:34:08,036 --> 00:34:10,276
Speaker 1: I'm mafia boss is not going to work his way

570
00:34:10,396 --> 00:34:13,676
Speaker 1: through one hundred and fifty five page script. The whole

571
00:34:13,756 --> 00:34:16,196
Speaker 1: point of being a mafia boss is that you don't

572
00:34:16,276 --> 00:34:18,356
Speaker 1: have to read things that are one hundred and fifty

573
00:34:18,396 --> 00:34:22,236
Speaker 1: five pages. Mafia bossays, do not have to do the

574
00:34:22,316 --> 00:34:25,756
Speaker 1: fine print, the letter of the law, or chapter and verse.

575
00:34:26,356 --> 00:34:28,796
Speaker 1: Those are for the people who have chosen not to

576
00:34:28,916 --> 00:34:32,076
Speaker 1: live a life of crime. Colombo hands the script to

577
00:34:32,156 --> 00:34:36,276
Speaker 1: one of his henchmen, a guy named Caesar. But Caesar's

578
00:34:36,316 --> 00:34:38,636
Speaker 1: not going to read it either, is he. Caesar's not

579
00:34:38,716 --> 00:34:41,556
Speaker 1: in the business of giving notes. Caesar's muscle.

580
00:34:41,996 --> 00:34:46,796
Speaker 3: Here's why me, but my script or over my desk. Finally,

581
00:34:46,836 --> 00:34:52,316
Speaker 3: Jill gets pissed Offiqus slester it on my desk? Do

582
00:34:52,396 --> 00:34:55,636
Speaker 3: we like this guy? Yeah? I like her? That's just

583
00:34:55,796 --> 00:34:59,116
Speaker 3: a really fuck, it's print for So, I said, well,

584
00:34:59,156 --> 00:35:00,556
Speaker 3: what do you what do you want? Where do you live?

585
00:35:00,836 --> 00:35:02,916
Speaker 3: He said, would you take the word mafia out of

586
00:35:02,956 --> 00:35:03,396
Speaker 3: the movie.

587
00:35:04,156 --> 00:35:07,636
Speaker 1: What Colombo doesn't realize because he hasn't read the script,

588
00:35:08,196 --> 00:35:10,716
Speaker 1: is it the word mafia is barely in the script.

589
00:35:11,236 --> 00:35:12,196
Speaker 1: It only appears once.

590
00:35:12,716 --> 00:35:16,196
Speaker 3: So I crossed the word mafia. I said, Joe, I'm

591
00:35:16,196 --> 00:35:18,156
Speaker 3: gonna do this. I'm gonna take this out of the movie.

592
00:35:18,276 --> 00:35:19,916
Speaker 3: He didn't know how many times it was ill is

593
00:35:19,996 --> 00:35:23,276
Speaker 3: he to promise? Shook his hand. I made a deal

594
00:35:23,716 --> 00:35:26,436
Speaker 3: that nobody could have made. No one read this way plan.

595
00:35:27,116 --> 00:35:30,076
Speaker 1: From that moment on, all trouble with the movie ceased.

596
00:35:30,836 --> 00:35:34,556
Speaker 1: It's why The Godfather got made. Hoots Ba is a

597
00:35:34,596 --> 00:35:37,316
Speaker 1: bunch of violent mobsters threatening to shut down a movie

598
00:35:37,716 --> 00:35:42,556
Speaker 1: because it depicts them as violent mobsters. HUTSBA is tricking

599
00:35:42,636 --> 00:35:44,676
Speaker 1: them because they're too lazy to read the script.

600
00:35:45,156 --> 00:35:48,156
Speaker 2: It's so difficult, Malcolm, I'd bite my tongue all the time.

601
00:35:49,196 --> 00:35:51,476
Speaker 1: It's not easy. It's not easy for you to be

602
00:35:51,516 --> 00:35:54,276
Speaker 1: over here in this politeness.

603
00:35:54,636 --> 00:35:58,316
Speaker 2: I'm basically living ten percent of my personality because I

604
00:35:58,436 --> 00:35:59,276
Speaker 2: have to be i'man.

605
00:36:01,116 --> 00:36:04,716
Speaker 1: Mealy wants to be direct she's not a bully, and

606
00:36:04,836 --> 00:36:07,516
Speaker 1: I wonder can we even tell the difference anymore?

607
00:36:09,156 --> 00:36:09,796
Speaker 3: It's not good.

608
00:36:10,196 --> 00:36:12,556
Speaker 2: It's not good. It's it's a very thick street. I'm

609
00:36:12,556 --> 00:36:15,756
Speaker 2: a desert person having to deal with yah snow.

610
00:36:20,276 --> 00:36:23,676
Speaker 1: Revisionous History is produced by Mela Bell and Jacob Smith

611
00:36:23,996 --> 00:36:28,756
Speaker 1: with Camille Baptista. Our editor is Julia Barton. Flon Williams

612
00:36:28,916 --> 00:36:32,516
Speaker 1: is our engineer. Fact checking by Beth Johnson. Original music

613
00:36:32,596 --> 00:36:37,396
Speaker 1: by Luis Gara. Special thanks to Carl Migliori, heater Feine,

614
00:36:37,996 --> 00:36:43,956
Speaker 1: Maggie Taylor, Maya Knigg and Jacob Weisberg. Revisious History is

615
00:36:44,116 --> 00:37:01,516
Speaker 1: brought to you by Pushkin Industries. I'm Malcolm Godlaw, so

616
00:37:01,676 --> 00:37:04,476
Speaker 1: wait say again me me Melli.

617
00:37:04,636 --> 00:37:08,116
Speaker 2: It's a flat elka. If the tongue is flat, the

618
00:37:08,276 --> 00:37:10,676
Speaker 2: snow all l.

619
00:37:12,676 --> 00:37:12,956
Speaker 3: MILLI.

620
00:37:13,796 --> 00:37:19,516
Speaker 2: So that's melli and it's not avial. It's a vital vital.

621
00:37:19,956 --> 00:37:23,036
Speaker 2: There's the other difference is also the ta. It doesn't

622
00:37:23,076 --> 00:37:26,396
Speaker 2: have a sort of air to it, so it's not it's.

623
00:37:28,076 --> 00:37:28,276
Speaker 1: Ah.

624
00:37:28,876 --> 00:37:30,556
Speaker 2: So do you hear the difference or is it just

625
00:37:30,636 --> 00:37:30,676
Speaker 2: me