Speaker 1: On the bed Cast, the questions asked if movies have
Speaker 1: women in um, are all their discussions just boyfriends and husbands,
Speaker 1: or do they have individualism the patriarchy zef in best
Speaker 1: start changing it with the Bedel Cast. Hello and welcome
Speaker 1: to the Bechtel Cast. My name's Jamie Loftus. My name
Speaker 1: is Caitlin Durante, and this is our podcast about yeah
Speaker 1: movie and an intersectional look at our favorite movies and
Speaker 1: your favorite movies. Not always our favorite movies. Sometimes movies
Speaker 1: we hate, these movies we hate, other times movies we loved,
Speaker 1: but not this one, not today's movies. Okay, So we
Speaker 1: are so um. Members of our patreon ak Matreon will
Speaker 1: recognize this as a previous Matreon released episode. We are
Speaker 1: unlocking an episode to get you all hyped up for
Speaker 1: horror in October this year. So we're unlocking our Death
Speaker 1: Becomes Her episode. And one of the reasons we're doing
Speaker 1: that because we have been really busting our asses getting
Speaker 1: the horror movies together for this year and it's gonna
Speaker 1: be an amazing October. We've got the Descent, We've got us,
Speaker 1: We've got a girl walks home alone at night. We've
Speaker 1: got what's the fourth way pans Labyrinths Hans Labyrinthe. Yeah, there.
Speaker 1: We we have an amazing October lined up for you,
Speaker 1: mostly directors we haven't covered before, so look forward to that.
Speaker 1: And this is just a fun ass episode, yes, and
Speaker 1: one of our shorter ones. We've been releasing like two
Speaker 1: hour episodes lately, and this one clocks in pretty pretty
Speaker 1: short start. To give ourselves too much of a pat
Speaker 1: on the back, but UM listeners will know we we
Speaker 1: live in southern California and the air is batteries. So
Speaker 1: the fact that we are recording two episodes that have
Speaker 1: enough you know, it's it's it's it's a miracle. It's
Speaker 1: a miracle that we're still producing a podcast in this economy.
Speaker 1: Can you imagine? Um. So, so we are unlocking a
Speaker 1: Matren episode today, but as an extra treat for our matrons,
Speaker 1: UM who if you're already a member or if you
Speaker 1: don't know, our Matreon gives you two bonus episodes a
Speaker 1: month with just Caitlin and myself talking about movies on
Speaker 1: a weird theme that we pick that never makes sense.
Speaker 1: Weird theme, you mean, amazing, incredible, outstanding theme that everybody
Speaker 1: loves all the time right now, it's it September, which
Speaker 1: is uh females driven sports movies with it in the title.
Speaker 1: That's your name for it. I My favorite for it
Speaker 1: is sport Timber, which is the same thing, female driven
Speaker 1: sports movies with it in the title, but stick it
Speaker 1: in with it. But in any case, what we for
Speaker 1: five bucks a month you can get all of those episodes.
Speaker 1: There's I think almost eighty bonus full length bonus episodes
Speaker 1: in our Matreon at this point, and this is only one.
Speaker 1: This one of the first ones we've ever unlocked, but
Speaker 1: for a bonus. On top of the bonus for our matrons.
Speaker 1: This month, we're also going to be unlocking our Titanic
Speaker 1: live read that we did to benefit Junior High l
Speaker 1: A last month. Um one of I think the Collapse
Speaker 1: of the Century, some of your favorite guests and us
Speaker 1: reading the entire script from Titanic. It's it's four hours long,
Speaker 1: so long, it's longer than the movie. Guests like Princess
Speaker 1: Weeks who was on the show just last week, Maggie
Speaker 1: May Fish, Lindsay Ellis, Knese Mobley who's going to be
Speaker 1: on the show next week. There's just so many wonderful
Speaker 1: guests and more, and so we'll be unlocking that for
Speaker 1: our matrons and uh, one last plug before we get
Speaker 1: into the show. We had so much fun doing a
Speaker 1: live read with with everybody, and I think it was
Speaker 1: over three hundred listeners that were with us that night,
Speaker 1: watching and like interacting with us live. We're going to
Speaker 1: be doing it again next Friday, September for the movie
Speaker 1: Wait for It Twice live, we're doing live reading of Twilight.
Speaker 1: I like to call it a live reading slash roasting,
Speaker 1: a live blood sucking to celebrate Robert Pattinson's recovery from
Speaker 1: COVID nineteen. We're reading Twilight, um no, but we we are.
Speaker 1: We are going to be reading it um Tickets will
Speaker 1: be live today or tomorrow, so keep your eye on
Speaker 1: our social media for that. There's going to be a
Speaker 1: donation based way to do it because we are benefiting
Speaker 1: a local candidate that we are really excited about in
Speaker 1: our area named Fatima Ichball Zubert. She is running for
Speaker 1: a state representative against an incumbent cop and she's amazing
Speaker 1: and we love her so much. So we're will be
Speaker 1: listing information on how to get access to that broadcast,
Speaker 1: which will be on the um on our social media
Speaker 1: basic you'll donate to Fatima, send us the receipt, we'll
Speaker 1: get you the link. It's easy. And you know we're
Speaker 1: gonna be I'm gonna be Edward, Caitlin's gonna be bela
Speaker 1: it is what it is. I can't believe. I'm going
Speaker 1: to buy a wig, I think. And our guests are
Speaker 1: going to be on a hose ni A, Sharine, Lana, Unice, Karama,
Speaker 1: Danqua and uh future guests on the show, Jess Merwin.
Speaker 1: So it is going to be simply a time so
Speaker 1: we will be posting about it incessantly, but we wanted
Speaker 1: to let you know about it now, so yeah, keep
Speaker 1: your eye over that, indeed. And then one last thing
Speaker 1: about this episode in particular, since we we recorded it,
Speaker 1: we released it about a year ago. If I'm not mistaken,
Speaker 1: believe it's for last yes. So you might have noticed
Speaker 1: in recent months we're on an ongoing pursuit and effort
Speaker 1: to eliminate any language more vocabulary that is able list
Speaker 1: and disparaging of mental illness. And this is we're talking
Speaker 1: like pretty common stuff that is still very widely used.
Speaker 1: Expressions like and I'm going to say them to let
Speaker 1: you know, maybe what you should also try to eliminate
Speaker 1: from your vocabulary. Vocabulary so things like that's crazy or
Speaker 1: that was insane, or even like that's so dumb, things
Speaker 1: like that. Yeah, the phrase stupid as well. There there's
Speaker 1: so many common phrases that are rooted in just bigoted
Speaker 1: statements against those experiencing mental illness and those with disabilities. Yeah,
Speaker 1: we we've kind of been on an ongoing education process
Speaker 1: for ourselves as well. Clearly this is stuff we've learned
Speaker 1: uh and begun implementing into our lives in the last year,
Speaker 1: So we a We're also going to include a link
Speaker 1: in our description where you can learn more about that
Speaker 1: and more about um, the origin of these common phrases
Speaker 1: that are actively harmful. Yes, that said, we wanted to
Speaker 1: acknowledge that because there are a few uses of language
Speaker 1: like this in the episode, because it was prior to
Speaker 1: us being aware of this, So do a heads up
Speaker 1: for that. And with that, I guess let's get into
Speaker 1: Death Becomes Her the best body horror movie of all time. Yeah,
Speaker 1: let's drink our potions that will make us live forever
Speaker 1: but also crumble And did you know women's bodies are terrifying.
Speaker 1: That's what I learned from this movie. We talked about
Speaker 1: it in the episode. But we but if this is
Speaker 1: your first episode of the Becktel Cast, welcome. Uh. We
Speaker 1: look at movies that have had an impact on the world,
Speaker 1: using intersexual feminist lens, using the Bechdel test as a
Speaker 1: jumping off point for discussion. But Caitlin, I don't remember
Speaker 1: what the Betel test is. Did you remind me? You
Speaker 1: say that as a joke. But I honestly, in the past,
Speaker 1: like a couple of weeks especially, I'm really like, my
Speaker 1: memory doesn't work anymore. I couldn't. I can't remember there's
Speaker 1: batteries in the air that we're breathing battery acid. Like
Speaker 1: it's horrible. I I don't like, I couldn't. I'm off
Speaker 1: topic already. But like I when this maybe passes the
Speaker 1: Bechdel test. But I was like trying to think of
Speaker 1: my stand up jokes recently, and I'm like, I can't
Speaker 1: remember any of my stand up jokes. I can't remember
Speaker 1: the names of places I used to go, Like, I,
Speaker 1: yeah it, yeah, I was remember. I was like, oh yeah, ideally,
Speaker 1: best case scenario, well, we will have to remember our
Speaker 1: jokes at some point, um terrifying. No, yeah, I've also
Speaker 1: been truly, I mean especially like extra shout out and
Speaker 1: love to all of our listeners on the American West
Speaker 1: Coast because it's it's tough right now and if you're
Speaker 1: able to do mutual aid throughout this, uh please do.
Speaker 1: But we're just just it's really the worst of times.
Speaker 1: I can't remember. I can't. I was like, I, um,
Speaker 1: you want a fun little anecdote before we told them
Speaker 1: what the Bechtel test is if you're squeamish, maybe fast
Speaker 1: forward fifteen seconds. I was walking to seven eleven yesterday,
Speaker 1: bravely went outside and I got so nauseated by the
Speaker 1: air that I threw up in my little mask. Had
Speaker 1: to turn around. Oh no, it's uh sorry god. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I've been having a NonStop headache for probably the past
Speaker 1: like six days now. It's really awful. It's bad. Um,
Speaker 1: So what is the pie test? And I think all
Speaker 1: of that puking in your mask passes the buckel totally
Speaker 1: past the backdel past. So that's that's another example of it.
Speaker 1: It is, you know, not it's a flawed metric. Um,
Speaker 1: but yes, that whole conversation I believe past the Bechtel
Speaker 1: test because of the Bechtel Test is a media metric
Speaker 1: originally developed and created by queer cartoonist Alison Bechtel, sometimes
Speaker 1: called the Bechtel Wallace Test, and it requires that. For
Speaker 1: our purposes, we have made some adjustments to the tests
Speaker 1: also another recent development of ours um but our newest
Speaker 1: version of the test is two people of any marginalized
Speaker 1: gender must have names, must speak to each other about
Speaker 1: something other than a sisman. So that is the test test.
Speaker 1: It's complicated. So we use that to inspire the premise
Speaker 1: of the show and then we dive into a much
Speaker 1: deeper conversation about representation in intersectionality and inclusivity and uh,
Speaker 1: you know, Goldi Han and Meryl streep at different at
Speaker 1: different times. So yes, we're we're excited to share this episode.
Speaker 1: Would we hope you enjoy it? And a reminder if
Speaker 1: you enjoyed these episodes with just being Caitlin, it's a
Speaker 1: little looser we're goofing around. Or if you're just running
Speaker 1: out of episodes of the Battle cast on our main feed,
Speaker 1: head over to the Matreon five bucks a month to
Speaker 1: bonus episodes, and as of today, you can watch the
Speaker 1: Titanic stream as well, so enjoy the rest of the episode.
Speaker 1: Enjoy the Bell cast. Jamie, what's your history with the film?
Speaker 1: Hadn't seen it? What about you? I had only seen
Speaker 1: it for the first time about a year ago. It
Speaker 1: was not at all on my radar until we started
Speaker 1: the podcast and started getting requested him. Yeah, as I
Speaker 1: I I and I intentionally did not do a ton
Speaker 1: of research going into the viewing experience, which I'm glad
Speaker 1: because it is such a wild ride. What a wild ride, indeed.
Speaker 1: But yeah, I saw it. I watched it about a
Speaker 1: year ago, and then we just rewatched it together and
Speaker 1: now we're ready to talk about it. I'm excited. There's
Speaker 1: a there's there's a lot going on here. Some of it.
Speaker 1: I love some of it. You know, we just have to.
Speaker 1: That's why we have the podcast, and it's it's a
Speaker 1: beloved movie. It's got a cult following. What a roller
Speaker 1: coaster the film. It is, so the story, if I
Speaker 1: may please do, thank you so much. We meet Madeline
Speaker 1: Ashton Meryl Street. Welcome, We take a hard left, take
Speaker 1: a car to Meryl Street. One of our weaker persistent jokes,
Speaker 1: I disagree you're right, you're right, you're right. When you're right,
Speaker 1: you're right. Um. She is an actor, a musical theater performer. Um.
Speaker 1: But people don't like her anymore because they think she
Speaker 1: is old and has lost her touch. But there is
Speaker 1: one person who does still love her, and that is
Speaker 1: Ernest Menville. Bruce Willis's character is a great Bruce Willis
Speaker 1: the role of a lifetime. I would say, oh yeah.
Speaker 1: He is a cosmetic surgeon. And the fiance of Helen Sharp,
Speaker 1: which is Goldie Hawn, who is a front of me
Speaker 1: of Madeleine's. She's a writer. She's a writer, which Madeleine
Speaker 1: really undermined. She's like, are you still doing that writing
Speaker 1: thing right? Which is personally triggering. Sure, and then Helen's
Speaker 1: all like, oh my god, Ernest, you don't like Madeleine,
Speaker 1: do you? And He's like, no, I have no interest
Speaker 1: in her whatsoever. Cutt, I'm getting married. This is the
Speaker 1: campiest movie with a fifty five million dollar budget that's
Speaker 1: ever been filmed. It's well, okay, I would welcome contenders
Speaker 1: and consume them happily. Sure, this is a very expensive
Speaker 1: camp movie. Right. Then we cut to seven years later
Speaker 1: and Helen has a wait and she is now a
Speaker 1: crazy cat lady. She's evicted. Classic trope. Oh yeah, we'll
Speaker 1: talk about it. She is evicted from her apartment, she's institutionalized,
Speaker 1: and she's completely obsessed with Madeline Ashton's demise. Right and
Speaker 1: then she and then we found flash forward seven years again.
Speaker 1: Right and Madeleine and Ernest's marriage is not healthy. He's
Speaker 1: an alcoholic. He is no longer a plastic surgeon, at
Speaker 1: least like not for living people. He instead now makes
Speaker 1: corpses look presentable for their funerals. Ya. Then, Madeleine receives
Speaker 1: an invitation from Helen for Helen's book party, and Madeline
Speaker 1: wants to look her best for the event, so she
Speaker 1: goes in for a treatment to get rejuvenated, and a
Speaker 1: guy there tells Madeleine about Lisel von Ruman ak Isabella.
Speaker 1: She can help, but he is weird, so Madeleine ignores him.
Speaker 1: Then she goes to Helen's event, and surprise, Goldie Hawn
Speaker 1: has taken off the fat suit and she is a
Speaker 1: successful writer. And Madeleine is not handling this well, so
Speaker 1: she decides to go to Lisa von Ruman's place castle
Speaker 1: and she sells Madeleine a potion that will reverse the
Speaker 1: aging process, and it works, and her body tightens up
Speaker 1: and her face looks younger in some of them. Us.
Speaker 1: I mean, there's so much I think spectacular body horror
Speaker 1: in this movie, and uh, this is just the beginning. Meanwhile,
Speaker 1: Helen has gone to Earnest to seduce him and sabotage
Speaker 1: his relationship with Madeline, and she proposes a plan where
Speaker 1: they drug and kill Madeleine but make it look like
Speaker 1: an accident, and Madeleine returns home and she and Ernest
Speaker 1: get into an argument and then he pushes her down
Speaker 1: the stairs. And I truly I found and you know
Speaker 1: that I need to watch this movie more. But I
Speaker 1: found the moment where Meryl Streep is rocking back and
Speaker 1: forth defying gravity on the stairs and we're like, is
Speaker 1: she's going to fall or not to be the most
Speaker 1: profound moment of the movie, because I think this movie
Speaker 1: basically boils down to women versus the forces of gravity
Speaker 1: over time, because it is that's a movie about aging,
Speaker 1: and like was because this is like a pretty solid
Speaker 1: creative team. I'm like, I wonder if someone was thinking
Speaker 1: that because it is just like women versus gravity is
Speaker 1: a central force in it. That's my little thought. What
Speaker 1: a brilliant thought, Jamie so much. I did my best
Speaker 1: on that one anyway. So yeah, they've gotten into an argument. Um,
Speaker 1: they're screaming at each other, they're calling each other nasty names.
Speaker 1: He is strangling her and then he pushes her down
Speaker 1: the stairs and she breaks her neck, and then Ernest
Speaker 1: calls Helen freaking out, and they're trying to figure out
Speaker 1: what to do. And as they're talking through it, uh,
Speaker 1: Madeleine gets up off the floor because she's taken this potion.
Speaker 1: She didn't die, even though her head is on backwards
Speaker 1: now right, which is not easy to look at. The
Speaker 1: whatever effects they did to accomplish that particular image is
Speaker 1: troubling and scary and weird. So we're being weirdly like
Speaker 1: diplomatic about it or like it is easy to view
Speaker 1: with your eyeball. It just isn't. I mean, they did
Speaker 1: the best with what they could in ninety what year
Speaker 1: was it too? Oh see, I think it looks like
Speaker 1: a little too close to real. This one an Academy
Speaker 1: Award for Visual Effects, did it? Really? It is the
Speaker 1: only thing it was nominated for it and it won. Wow,
Speaker 1: I know, which is really just a testament to and
Speaker 1: you know that that means not recent. Sure, I mean
Speaker 1: Zamachas is a visual effects king. I'll say it. I've
Speaker 1: seen back to she said it. I can't believe she
Speaker 1: finally said it. I mean, he's no James Cameron. But
Speaker 1: who's going on with this today? I missed the Matrion.
Speaker 1: It's well, it's been a really long time since we
Speaker 1: recorded a Matreon episode. I know, it's been really long
Speaker 1: since we haven't had a refer e in the room
Speaker 1: being like, wrap it up, idiots, it's good, it feels good.
Speaker 1: So Madeleine turns her head back around and then yes,
Speaker 1: She's like, Earnest, I need to see a doctor. So
Speaker 1: he takes her to the e R. But she doesn't
Speaker 1: have a heartbeat, and it turns out she is legally dead,
Speaker 1: but she's still awake and moving around and she seems
Speaker 1: alive because of this potion. But Earnest, being the doctor
Speaker 1: science man that he is, thinks that this is a
Speaker 1: cosmic sign that they should be together after all, which
Speaker 1: is confusing. You know, No, I mean, he's he's an
Speaker 1: interesting I'm like, I'm not quite sure what the comments
Speaker 1: on masculinity is there, but there but it's something sure
Speaker 1: true tv D and he takes her home and tries
Speaker 1: to fix up her broken body, but Helen comes back
Speaker 1: over and Madeleine overhears her talking to Earnest about their
Speaker 1: plan to kill her, so Madeleine takes a rifle and
Speaker 1: shoots Helen with it, but surprise, Hell has also taken
Speaker 1: Liesel von Rumans potion, so she doesn't die, even though
Speaker 1: she has a huge gaping hole in her mid section right,
Speaker 1: and then she and Madeleine start physically fighting each other.
Speaker 1: They're hitting each other's shovels, but then they realize there's
Speaker 1: no point in that because neither of them can be
Speaker 1: injured or die. And then they get to a point
Speaker 1: where they both admit their wrongdoings and apologize for hurting
Speaker 1: each other in the past. Uh and then they make
Speaker 1: Ernest fix them up, but he's like, I'll do it,
Speaker 1: but then I'm going to leave forever after that and
Speaker 1: you'll never see me again. But then they worry. They're
Speaker 1: like ship, like, we're gonna need touch ups, Like what
Speaker 1: if it rains and he's not going to live forever
Speaker 1: and we need him around. So they decide to take
Speaker 1: him to Leesl's and make him drink the potion to right,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of intermittent violence and this will have
Speaker 1: to backtrack to and they know he won't go willingly,
Speaker 1: so they first try to drug him. That doesn't work,
Speaker 1: and then they knock him out and take him to
Speaker 1: Lisl's castle. She almost succeeds in convincing Earnest to drink
Speaker 1: the potion, but at the last minute he's like, wait
Speaker 1: a minute, I don't want to live forever. That sounds awful,
Speaker 1: and then he gets away. He's not wrong, and then
Speaker 1: Madeleine and Helen spot him and chase after him through
Speaker 1: this like ball that Lisel's throwing all of her clients,
Speaker 1: of whom include Elvis, Marilyn Monroe, and Andy Warhol ha
Speaker 1: ha funny. So he's trying to escape via the roof
Speaker 1: Earnest is and he slips and falls and he's dangling
Speaker 1: there and he's about to fall to his death, and
Speaker 1: Madeline and Helen are like, oh, man, you got to
Speaker 1: take the potion because then if you fall, you won't die.
Speaker 1: But he refuses and then he falls, but he lands
Speaker 1: in a swimming pool, so he lives. And then he
Speaker 1: finally gets away and Madeline and Helen are like, well,
Speaker 1: I guess we'll just have to take care of each
Speaker 1: other and paint each other's asses. I kind of like that,
Speaker 1: so did I. I know, I'm just like man, that
Speaker 1: is kind of like, you know, for some of us
Speaker 1: being toxic, it's nice to be toxic and also not alone.
Speaker 1: That's true. They just start doomed to an eternity of
Speaker 1: toxic friendship together. And then we cut to thirty seven
Speaker 1: years later, which let me do the math here, because
Speaker 1: the movie starts when it's ninety eight, and then seven
Speaker 1: years passed, and then seven more years passed, and then
Speaker 1: thirty seven years passed, putting us at ten years from now.
Speaker 1: So Bruce Willis has ten years left to live. Let's
Speaker 1: be very careful. But it has been said, it wasn't
Speaker 1: not said diplomatic. Well, yeah, that's an official statement. Okay.
Speaker 1: So it's thirty seven years later. Madeline and Helen are
Speaker 1: at Ernest's funeral, but they're chipping, they're melting, they're falling apart,
Speaker 1: and then they fall down some stairs and break into bits,
Speaker 1: but they're still alive. In Helen's like, do you remember
Speaker 1: where you parked in the car? And then that's the
Speaker 1: end of the movie did it? Did It Do? And
Speaker 1: that's the whole thing. Yep, you know, I like the movie.
Speaker 1: It's very fun. It's so campy, it's fun with it.
Speaker 1: It's wild. Um let's take a quick break and then
Speaker 1: we'll come right back. So let's dive in. Yeah. Well,
Speaker 1: the first thing for me is that this movie, it
Speaker 1: seems like it is like trying to be a commentary
Speaker 1: on how society doesn't value older women. I totally agree
Speaker 1: with society doesn't tends not to find older women to
Speaker 1: be attractive. But I think it does not really go
Speaker 1: far enough because then the movie focuses on, uh, these
Speaker 1: two women who hate each other, and then they do
Speaker 1: end up finding a common ground, but really only because
Speaker 1: they have no other choice. This to me, it does
Speaker 1: feel like kind of like a swell to that we
Speaker 1: just happened to have covered a lot of movies that
Speaker 1: kind of fall into this category recently, but like a
Speaker 1: very earnest attempt to make a comment on something that
Speaker 1: the writers are not necessarily qualified to make. The comment
Speaker 1: to this movie is uh spoiler alert. As with most
Speaker 1: movies written by multiple men um and directed by and
Speaker 1: directed by Mr Zemecki himself. Um, yeah, I mean, this
Speaker 1: movie was written by David cope Um, who also was
Speaker 1: at least a co writer on Jurassic Park. Curtly does
Speaker 1: right vision impossible, snake eyes, don't know what that is.
Speaker 1: He's written a lot of damn movies, what I'm saying,
Speaker 1: as well as Martin Donovan, who is also a famous screenwriter.
Speaker 1: So it does seem like and based on the production
Speaker 1: history that we'll get into in Jamie's contact corner, this
Speaker 1: was a genuine attempt to make comment on women's aging
Speaker 1: by people who you know, couldn't really fully understand it themselves.
Speaker 1: And so I feel like, well, I don't feel like,
Speaker 1: you know what, make a declarative statement for once in
Speaker 1: your life, Jamie. I know based on watching the movie
Speaker 1: that even though I think that the criticism of you
Speaker 1: know how there's a huge stigma against women's aging is
Speaker 1: made in the movie, movie is also very much not
Speaker 1: above reducing an age woman's body to a cheap joke
Speaker 1: or a women's body in general, because there's a lot
Speaker 1: of issues with that shaming in this and there's like
Speaker 1: so it is like a weird back and forth and
Speaker 1: it is extremely campy, but that doesn't excuse it from
Speaker 1: anything of making like pretty solid foundational points about like society.
Speaker 1: We live in a society Caalen, right what, and society
Speaker 1: should not push women to the point of feeling like
Speaker 1: they have to go to, let's say, extreme measures to
Speaker 1: preserve their youth in order to function in society as
Speaker 1: they would like to. I like that foundational point is made,
Speaker 1: but the way that they choose to make it is
Speaker 1: kind of all over the place. And then the way
Speaker 1: they treat those two women after they have made this choice, yeah,
Speaker 1: does not bode well because basically what happens is that
Speaker 1: after they've both taken the potion to not only reverse
Speaker 1: the aging process but prevent them from ever dying, doom right,
Speaker 1: doom them to this weird morbid eternity of just falling apart,
Speaker 1: and well they it becomes extreme. But like, I feel
Speaker 1: like they're punished by wanting the well not like Okay,
Speaker 1: So foundationally we can't really put and much blame on
Speaker 1: Meryl Streeps or Goldie Hans's character for wanting to maintain
Speaker 1: their youth, just based on especially the early nineties culture
Speaker 1: that they're in for the majority of the movie. Sure, right,
Speaker 1: but the movie does punish them by condemning them to
Speaker 1: an eternity of body horse and then also turning those
Speaker 1: characters not really into villains, but the way they start
Speaker 1: behaving as soon as they've both died. I kind of
Speaker 1: love her. I mean I do. It's like very funny
Speaker 1: and like part of what I like about the movie,
Speaker 1: but also like, if we really sit down and look
Speaker 1: at it and think about it, we I think are
Speaker 1: meant to like very much. We'll see, Okay, we're working
Speaker 1: this out in real time. Okay, this is the matron.
Speaker 1: But I do feel like and we almost talked, we
Speaker 1: talked about this while we were watching the movie that
Speaker 1: I am all for seeing a toxic relationship between two women.
Speaker 1: I love it. I've taken part in them myself, like
Speaker 1: but but like truly like where we start, and even
Speaker 1: though I feel like it starts from a too heightened place,
Speaker 1: but where we start where you know one woman is
Speaker 1: jealous of another woman, which I feel like even we
Speaker 1: in the past have sometimes been like, oh, that's so tropy,
Speaker 1: which it can be, but I also think that there
Speaker 1: is certain stories where that works because that trope doesn't
Speaker 1: come from nowhere. It comes from I feel, and like
Speaker 1: I have felt in certain situations myself that you know,
Speaker 1: there is an increased capacity for professional especially where this
Speaker 1: seems to sort of start and then it gets personal
Speaker 1: but like a jealousy between women, because there's this perception
Speaker 1: and often a reality that there's only space for so
Speaker 1: many women in a place. So I think that it
Speaker 1: is a topic worth exploring, but these writers are just
Speaker 1: not equipped to do it, and they and I think
Speaker 1: it's so abruptly is like, oh, we don't really know
Speaker 1: how to explore this in an interesting or like a
Speaker 1: nuanced way at all, So let's just make it about boys,
Speaker 1: which is what it becomes about. And then it goes
Speaker 1: full trope territory of like damn, damn my boyfriend. So
Speaker 1: it kind of sucks because I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: the dynamics of a female friendship, especially a longstanding one
Speaker 1: like this, and the power dynamics that exists inside of
Speaker 1: it really interesting, and it's been done in really clever
Speaker 1: and cool ways, and just this this is a more
Speaker 1: kind of reductive version of it, although I mean hopefully
Speaker 1: it at at the time helped pave the way to
Speaker 1: more nuanced looks and stuff like that, but it does,
Speaker 1: I mean, it gets pretty reductive of like she still
Speaker 1: my boyfriend very quickly, because it takes the movie a
Speaker 1: really long time for the audience to understand why they
Speaker 1: don't like each other. Because we eventually understand that they
Speaker 1: are childhood friends or maybe like they were friends as
Speaker 1: teenagers or something like that, it's still pretty vague, yeah,
Speaker 1: and it takes a very long time for them to
Speaker 1: even talk about it. But then finally there is a
Speaker 1: reason that gets established to explain why they are friendemies,
Speaker 1: or at least why Helen hates Magdalene, and it's because
Speaker 1: Madeline kept stealing Helen's boyfriends, and I guess she was
Speaker 1: doing that to get back at Helen for calling her cheap,
Speaker 1: which I don't know if that means. We also don't
Speaker 1: really know what the context of that is, where it's, yeah,
Speaker 1: you're set up with a very vague my immediate read,
Speaker 1: but it's so vague that I feel like you can
Speaker 1: just project whatever you want onto. It was that like
Speaker 1: Helen's character was from like a family that didn't approve
Speaker 1: of Meryl's appearance, or maybe it was her socioeconomic background.
Speaker 1: It wasn't clear. The word cheap is loaded right exactly,
Speaker 1: So it's like is it a classist thing? Is like
Speaker 1: is she calling her or is it like she calling
Speaker 1: her like oh you're a cheap like hussy, which is
Speaker 1: in the yea ly at the beginning to what was it?
Speaker 1: I read it down it was like shameless, deep by
Speaker 1: princess lude and lusty. You're like, thank you so much? Right,
Speaker 1: so it's not even totally clear what she meant. But
Speaker 1: then Madeleine retaliates by stealing many of Helen's boyfriends. It's
Speaker 1: all pretty reductive stuff. But but I am it takes
Speaker 1: an hour and a half for this conversation take place.
Speaker 1: But but at least these reasons are given. But again
Speaker 1: they are, like you said, they're still very like trophy
Speaker 1: and like women be cat fighting and that's the reason
Speaker 1: why these women are cat fighting. Yeah, I don't think
Speaker 1: that there's like had had the writers, you know, talked
Speaker 1: to women their friendships or or reasons that you know,
Speaker 1: like I don't know. I mean I think you could
Speaker 1: talk to even a handful of women and be like, oh,
Speaker 1: you know, what was a friendship that of yours with
Speaker 1: another woman that fell apart? And what were the reasons?
Speaker 1: You could come up with a more grounded, relatable reason
Speaker 1: other than like boys and mommy and daddy because um,
Speaker 1: you know a female friendships be complicably complicated as right.
Speaker 1: And then shortly after we are we understand the reasons
Speaker 1: why they have had such a tense relationship and friendship
Speaker 1: throughout their lives. Then they both admit their wrongdoings and
Speaker 1: apologize to each other. But it's at that point when
Speaker 1: they start to like, you know, be on each other's
Speaker 1: sides and decide to like kind of be allies again.
Speaker 1: That's when the movie turns them into these like and
Speaker 1: again the performances are very fun. This is still very
Speaker 1: fun to watch, but it's like they become like these
Speaker 1: like kind of scary obsessed to I mean, like it
Speaker 1: like enters like once they die, it says, I mean, yeah,
Speaker 1: it enters Roger Rabbit territory basically of like the cartoonishness
Speaker 1: of how the characters like look and behave and it
Speaker 1: is fun to watch. And that's the thing that Like
Speaker 1: Bugs Me is movie viewers are smarter than people give
Speaker 1: them credit for, like your average movie. You're talking about
Speaker 1: me specifically, right, you're a Stubs member. I am telling
Speaker 1: all the Stubbs members out there and sponsor us hello,
Speaker 1: but like, you know, like people aren't going into death
Speaker 1: becomes her looking for an example of how to live
Speaker 1: their life, you know, so all you need in order
Speaker 1: to justify the cartoony violence, which I appreciate that it's cartoony,
Speaker 1: and it's like that's it's a very different movie if
Speaker 1: you're like, I'm gonna you really slow instead of literally
Speaker 1: I'm gonna blow up your torso you know, like the
Speaker 1: injuries are very cartoony. The comical cutting away to Meryl
Speaker 1: Street falling down the stairs for forty five minutes before
Speaker 1: she hits the bottom of the staircase, like it's clearly
Speaker 1: done with like comedic intent, and all you need to
Speaker 1: justify all that cartoony violence is a solid reason for
Speaker 1: these two characters to hate each other other than a
Speaker 1: vague scene throw in three quarters of the way through
Speaker 1: the movie that doesn't even really answer any questions, and
Speaker 1: it makes it clear. I'm like, I wouldn't even be
Speaker 1: surprised if like that scene was added in later, because
Speaker 1: it seems like the movie does all it's looking to
Speaker 1: do to justify two women disliking each other in the
Speaker 1: first scene by saying, like she steals my boyfriends and
Speaker 1: we see, you know, it's it's implied that having uh
Speaker 1: boyfriend quote unquote stolen, which also removes all of the
Speaker 1: accountability from the boyfriend, that is like grounds for Helen's
Speaker 1: life completely falling apart. She stops taking care of herself,
Speaker 1: and she you know, reaches what is kind of implied
Speaker 1: to be this catatonic state of living over the loss
Speaker 1: of a boyfriend, which she says explicitly in dialogue she
Speaker 1: blames a thousand percent on Meryl Streep and not at
Speaker 1: all on Bruce Willis, who is just too much of
Speaker 1: a sweetie earnest boo to know what he's doing, which
Speaker 1: is like, you know, very IROLLI right, And then this
Speaker 1: movie also subscribes heavily to the idea that fat equals pathetic,
Speaker 1: that single woman equals pathetic, and that and then also
Speaker 1: and woman who loves cats pathetic absolutely and how dare
Speaker 1: how dare there the movie stayed at But there? Yeah,
Speaker 1: I mean that the way that I mean the fat
Speaker 1: shaming elements in this movie are ex Meryl is drunk
Speaker 1: constantly making fat shaming comments about Helen, right, and it's
Speaker 1: I mean, the beginning of the movie is the worst
Speaker 1: of it. Where you you know you. We find out
Speaker 1: that Bruce Willis has married Meryl Streep. Goldie Haunt is
Speaker 1: very upset by it, and then we cut to seven
Speaker 1: years later to an exploitative up close ass shot and
Speaker 1: then revealed that Goldi Han's character has gained eight and
Speaker 1: it's implied that, yeah, like gaining weight means you've lost
Speaker 1: control of your life. Like it's just used as this
Speaker 1: shorthand that is like first of all lazy, bad writing,
Speaker 1: and second of all it just you know, hold up,
Speaker 1: not even a little, and in the fat suit, it's
Speaker 1: just all bad. Right. And then also because she's institutionalized
Speaker 1: in like a psychiatric hospital, that's also well the way
Speaker 1: that mentally, the way that mental illness. Yeah that like
Speaker 1: I mean mercifully at least those scenes are pretty quick.
Speaker 1: I also think that they could have just flashed forward
Speaker 1: fourteen years like that midway, because everything that happens at
Speaker 1: the seven year point is pretty offensive and also not
Speaker 1: super necessary to the story. Like we can flash forward
Speaker 1: fourteen years and just be like she's still mad, right,
Speaker 1: you don't need to do the whole scene where it's fat,
Speaker 1: shamy and just like bad on every level. And then
Speaker 1: you cut to the institution, which at least they don't
Speaker 1: do that horrible thing that movies do where they name
Speaker 1: a mental illness and explicitly stigmatize it. But the implication is,
Speaker 1: you know, women be crazy, and being jealous of another
Speaker 1: woman is a mental illness. And then the I think
Speaker 1: unnamed mental health professional at the which is one of
Speaker 1: the only people of color in the entire movie. I
Speaker 1: don't know that we I don't hear your name. I
Speaker 1: mean maybe she's credited with one, but I don't think.
Speaker 1: We definitely don't hear it. But even she's on screen
Speaker 1: for no more than a minute and fat James Goldiehunt
Speaker 1: in that scene and is like, you've been here six
Speaker 1: months and you haven't lost a pound. I'm like, that's
Speaker 1: not why people are institutionalized. So that's just a cruel
Speaker 1: thing to say. So that whole first flash forward, I say,
Speaker 1: get rid of it. We don't need it. And then
Speaker 1: and then when they flash forward again fourteen years Meryl
Speaker 1: Street and this is again just like another subtle, not
Speaker 1: so subtle way of like treating women's bodies. Is Meryl
Speaker 1: Streep only takes Goldie Han seriously and will only consider
Speaker 1: talking to her when she finds out that she is
Speaker 1: lost weight and is back to Goldie Han. And before that,
Speaker 1: it's like she and Bruce Willis are kind of like
Speaker 1: gearing up to tease her from Afar and not talk
Speaker 1: to her. But then when it's revealed that in another
Speaker 1: tasteless reveal that you know, it's Goldie Han and she's,
Speaker 1: you know, the Western beauty standards Goldie Han and not
Speaker 1: the offensive fat suit Goldie Han, then all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: Meryl Streep is willing to engage and the jealousy is back,
Speaker 1: and it's just like just just kind of out, don't
Speaker 1: we don't need it, We don't need it? Yeah, absolutely,
Speaker 1: And then then they're like rivalry is ignited again, and
Speaker 1: then we still don't know. I really don't really know why.
Speaker 1: We only know that that Madeleine tends to steal Helen's
Speaker 1: boyfriend's away from her, but we don't know why, we
Speaker 1: don't know what anyone's motivation is. And then things eventually
Speaker 1: turn around where they do become friends again because they
Speaker 1: both died and they now that they've both been responsible
Speaker 1: for the other's death. They kind of they're like, oh,
Speaker 1: this is the vague reason we were mad to the game,
Speaker 1: was sorry for not mentioning that earlier, and we're even
Speaker 1: and yeah, we we right, and we found common ground
Speaker 1: in both dying and being so obsessed with maintaining our
Speaker 1: youthful looks that we need to keep this guy around
Speaker 1: to fix us whenever we need it. But then, like
Speaker 1: I say, they become villains because one, they're so obsessed
Speaker 1: with this idea of maintaining that, and then they go
Speaker 1: so far as to try to drug him and then
Speaker 1: knock him out, to take him against his will to
Speaker 1: this place and then force him to take this potion
Speaker 1: because they just want him. There's also like the bizarre
Speaker 1: because Bruce Willis, I mean, the thing is like I
Speaker 1: loved this movie, but but but we must do our job.
Speaker 1: The the bizarro message you get on masculinity and I
Speaker 1: think sort of like a trophy beta male character with
Speaker 1: Bruce Willis in this movie is bizarre. Like I think
Speaker 1: that immediately all agency is kind of removed from him
Speaker 1: in a way that like completely free him of accountability
Speaker 1: on anything, where it's just made to seem like he's
Speaker 1: this gullible idiot who cannot see through the sexuality of women.
Speaker 1: That is the thing where he you know, reassures Goldie
Speaker 1: Han and it's like, there's no way I'll fall for this,
Speaker 1: And they almost make it seem like Meryl Streep has
Speaker 1: this magical power of manipulation that immediately wins him over.
Speaker 1: Goldie Han tells him to his face, I don't blame
Speaker 1: you for that. It's her. She's evil, she does. She's
Speaker 1: a woman, a woman from from new work, which is funny,
Speaker 1: but but you know, like no one ever gets upset
Speaker 1: for him for things. And then he also intern and
Speaker 1: keeping with that, blames the women in his life for
Speaker 1: where his life ends up. And it's like no one,
Speaker 1: no one forced you to marry Meryl Streep, Bruce Well,
Speaker 1: I think I'm sorry. You hate to say it, but
Speaker 1: like no one forced you to And and then sort
Speaker 1: of the same throughout at the end where it's framed
Speaker 1: like you know, these two vindictive women want to keep
Speaker 1: this poor man at their mercy for the rest of
Speaker 1: their eternal lives, and they want to torture him into infinity,
Speaker 1: and it's just like it's so over the top, and
Speaker 1: brist Will has literally kills Meryl Street. But he's like
Speaker 1: she told me to, like he's actually like he never
Speaker 1: has a choice in anything, and it's just so like,
Speaker 1: I mean, I loved I love to watch it, but
Speaker 1: it does it does give you a weird comment on
Speaker 1: masculinity that, like every man that's ever lived is completely
Speaker 1: has to go with the like wiles of women. They
Speaker 1: don't understand, they can't control it. They do, they commit murder.
Speaker 1: It's not their fault. Also, there's that scene where Goldie Han,
Speaker 1: dressed as Jessica Rabbit fully goes up at his house
Speaker 1: and she's like, I used to be so timid and
Speaker 1: I couldn't even say the word sex, but now I
Speaker 1: can say it sex, sex, and he's like, boo, it's
Speaker 1: kind of funny. But but like, yeah, well, my thing
Speaker 1: with that character with Earnest is that I feel that
Speaker 1: he has written the way a lot of women are written,
Speaker 1: or should I say underwritten in many movies, because he's
Speaker 1: often hysterical, he's screaming, he is gullible. Um in the
Speaker 1: relationships that he's in with these two women, he is
Speaker 1: has far less kind of power and control than the
Speaker 1: two women. He at least starts out pretty much as
Speaker 1: like being the supporting character um to these women in
Speaker 1: the story. So like, but then like by the end,
Speaker 1: he is framed as like being this hero and they're
Speaker 1: at his funeral and they're like, oh man, his life
Speaker 1: got so awesome when he turned fifty and he's a
Speaker 1: saint and he started the Menville Center for the Study
Speaker 1: of Women because I guess feminine ist icon Earnest Menville
Speaker 1: like probably not. I'm like that was I thought that
Speaker 1: was like kind of a fun Like I don't know.
Speaker 1: I was like, well, aging worked out for someone, because well,
Speaker 1: that's the thing. Maybe it's the movie trying to comment
Speaker 1: but again I don't think it does it effectively. But
Speaker 1: it's like men are allowed to age gracefully and with dignity,
Speaker 1: and like, look, how awesome everyone thinks he is. Maybe
Speaker 1: if you just hung in their ladies and not gotten
Speaker 1: so upset. Right, But and then by contrast, we see
Speaker 1: like the two women they are literally like chipping away,
Speaker 1: falling apart. They look grotesque because they're paint running off
Speaker 1: of their faces. So it's like, is that commentary? But
Speaker 1: I feel like and we are, we're on their side,
Speaker 1: But I just it feels like a hollow message and
Speaker 1: movies trying to say one thing. Well, something I did
Speaker 1: like is that I feel like we talked about this
Speaker 1: when we're watching it too, that Meryl Streep's character in
Speaker 1: this movie kind of reminds me of Goldie Hans character
Speaker 1: in First Wives Club, where these are both characters who
Speaker 1: are in the entertainment industry. Meryl Streep is some sort
Speaker 1: of like a star of the stage in screen right,
Speaker 1: who is afraid of not being able to work in
Speaker 1: the way she would like to if she appears older, right, um,
Speaker 1: which is similar to Goldie Han in First And I
Speaker 1: appreciate at very least that I think that often, like
Speaker 1: a woman's anxiety about aging is made out to see
Speaker 1: hysterical or pathetic. And while it is definitely exaggerated in
Speaker 1: this movie, they at very least the writing does go
Speaker 1: out of its way to couch it in like and
Speaker 1: this is not something that she is completely, you know,
Speaker 1: like removed from reality to be worried about, because we
Speaker 1: see that scene where she goes to her young side
Speaker 1: pieces house and he is with a younger woman and
Speaker 1: he rejects her and you know, insults her and says,
Speaker 1: you know, go date someone your own age, and that
Speaker 1: is a breaking point for her. And so I think
Speaker 1: that it was that was one of for me, the
Speaker 1: more genuine moments of like actual commentary on aging. Of like, yes,
Speaker 1: it does seem on the surface like Meryl Streep is.
Speaker 1: You know, she's seen with face masks on all the time.
Speaker 1: It's made out to be over the top, but then
Speaker 1: you do get the inverse of it of like she's
Speaker 1: not doing it for no reason. She's it there is
Speaker 1: like it is her reality, and so I did appreciate
Speaker 1: that we we at least get to see that so
Speaker 1: that she isn't made out to be like the crazy
Speaker 1: lady tramp. Yeah, I agree that scene where she goes
Speaker 1: to that guy and he says, like, find a guy
Speaker 1: your own age. I'm doing you a favorite. People say
Speaker 1: we look ridiculous together, which is like the movie attempting,
Speaker 1: I think, to comment on the double standard of society
Speaker 1: deeming it perfectly acceptable for an older man to be
Speaker 1: with a younger woman but not acceptable for an older
Speaker 1: woman to be with a younger man. So the movie
Speaker 1: does like start to make this commentary. It is like
Speaker 1: it is, it just doesn't get all the way there, right.
Speaker 1: It's almost like you know, mail writers and directors that
Speaker 1: are trying to put women on which is great use
Speaker 1: your power responsibly, but also talk to them. See what
Speaker 1: they think, See if they think you're being stupid. Uh,
Speaker 1: you know, let's just bring it ari aster back into
Speaker 1: the conversation while we're at it, of just like, yeah,
Speaker 1: we get it, Like you want to make movie as well.
Speaker 1: Women try to have a conversation with one. Um. Yeah,
Speaker 1: there are like those moments where you're like, oh, this
Speaker 1: the heart was in the right place, but it just
Speaker 1: rings hollow because there's not really any authenticity in it.
Speaker 1: And I feel like it's like what makes a great
Speaker 1: campy movie is like reactions and characters that are over
Speaker 1: the top of you understand why they're doing what they're doing,
Speaker 1: and so you can justify almost anything behavior wise. Of like,
Speaker 1: if I had a better understanding, a rooted reason that
Speaker 1: Meryl Streep and Goldiehan fucking hate each other, then they
Speaker 1: could hit each other with shovels all day and I
Speaker 1: wouldn't care, because it's like you there, there's a grounded
Speaker 1: reason and you're not just doing it to do it,
Speaker 1: but you know it. It's just sometimes it feels that way,
Speaker 1: other times it doesn't. Yeah, I agree, Um, we need
Speaker 1: to take another quick break, but then we will come
Speaker 1: right back and we're back. Can I share my two
Speaker 1: favorite lines in the movie, both said by Bruce Willis
Speaker 1: because his character just tickles me. Pink hit it baby.
Speaker 1: He sees like yelling at like a staff member in
Speaker 1: the hospital after he's taken Madeline to the e R
Speaker 1: and he's like, you put her in the morgue, shall
Speaker 1: be furious. And then a little bit later, whenever they're
Speaker 1: trying to deal with what they think is Helen's dead body,
Speaker 1: Bruce Willis says, are you just gonna sit there? I'm
Speaker 1: not going to be your accomplice all by myself, which
Speaker 1: is comedy at its the peak, so funny. Loved it, Okay,
Speaker 1: it was fun fun. I mean this movie, I think
Speaker 1: kind of keeping true to it's hard in the right place,
Speaker 1: but a lot of you know, kind of classically negative
Speaker 1: stereotypes being given in. I mean, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: needlessly like overly revealing out but it's kind of for
Speaker 1: no reason. I'm almost willing to justify it within the
Speaker 1: aesthetic of the movie or it is a cartoon. But
Speaker 1: there's like that scene where Meryl Stape and Goldie Hunter
Speaker 1: following Bruce Willis around in like Leo tarts for no
Speaker 1: reason and you're just like, Okay. This is also one
Speaker 1: of the few movies where the two female leads are
Speaker 1: older than the male love interest. Rail Streep and Goldi
Speaker 1: Hunter both older than Bruce Willis, so that very rarely happens.
Speaker 1: You know. It's like Leonardo DiCaprio will not appear on
Speaker 1: screen with a woman over the age of twenty four.
Speaker 1: So there's you know that I thought that was cool.
Speaker 1: Oh that was getting into the Isabella Risselini right, because
Speaker 1: she she is. I mean, the costumes are incredible, I
Speaker 1: mean iconic. They are architecture basically. They the looks her
Speaker 1: shirt is just several necklaces. But it's also you're like,
Speaker 1: I think that there's flesh colored fabric involved. I'm not
Speaker 1: going must because we didn't see any nips. I don't
Speaker 1: believe there was art. Yeah, because it was PG. Thirteen,
Speaker 1: so the architect I mean it was wild, but but like,
Speaker 1: sure there were shots where you saw her bare ass
Speaker 1: for no reason. Was it gratuitous? Yeah? But I also
Speaker 1: was like, I wish I could wear that, you know,
Speaker 1: but there I mean, and there's did you have I
Speaker 1: don't have much to say about Lisel's character because she
Speaker 1: is kind of something that I think is something that
Speaker 1: we have slowly realized is a bizarre trope that appears
Speaker 1: again again. Is she's a plot, which right, she's were
Speaker 1: compared which we compared her to Ursula. Yeah, she is.
Speaker 1: She's literally a ploted She's like, I have a deal
Speaker 1: for you. I'm wearing an outfit and you're like a right, okay, sure, yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean then we also, I don't know totally how
Speaker 1: much this is worth mentioning, but we as we were
Speaker 1: watching it, we were like, she's like appropriating ancient Egyptian
Speaker 1: culture with like sound off in the comments. We truly
Speaker 1: I'm just like, I don't know if there's if what
Speaker 1: we don't know. Yeah, there's a lot of there's a
Speaker 1: lot of it we don't know. We don't know, so
Speaker 1: you know, that's something for for if you have any
Speaker 1: information on it. We would love to have a more
Speaker 1: cogent discuss and about it, but at this time we
Speaker 1: simply don't know. Um, but yeah, that's Lesal. There's really
Speaker 1: not I mean, yeah, there was like some gratuitous nuded,
Speaker 1: I mean almost exclusively gratuitous nudi. There she's a plot
Speaker 1: which but we do have two female protagonists to bounce
Speaker 1: it off. I mean, like, if if she was one
Speaker 1: of the only women that you saw on screen at length,
Speaker 1: I would be way more bothered that she also has
Speaker 1: like several male servants Fabia's, Fabio's. They're one of them.
Speaker 1: Is Actually their names are Tom, Dick and Harry, and
Speaker 1: they are pretty nude. I mean they're topless, they're wearing
Speaker 1: they're not pretty revealing clothing. So I thought that was
Speaker 1: you know what if that's an empowering thing for it's
Speaker 1: just about rules you can't wear a lot of She's rich. Also,
Speaker 1: she's a businesswoman. I think there's a case she's a
Speaker 1: woman in she's seventies some years old, she said, which
Speaker 1: is I mean, it is another one of those I mean,
Speaker 1: and again this movie is not thinking too hard about it,
Speaker 1: I'm certain, but you know, like a female scientist can
Speaker 1: only be a witch kind of thing. But also she
Speaker 1: has at least some business life outside of it. I
Speaker 1: don't have that much to say about this character. And
Speaker 1: then there's also the thing of like it's a movie
Speaker 1: about women aging and like not being allowed to age
Speaker 1: gracefully in society, not allowing that, but then it's also
Speaker 1: casting three women who are very attractive by Western beauty standards,
Speaker 1: and it's like great, right for you? Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: I mean it is an interesting Again, It's just like,
Speaker 1: so much of this movie would pull together more for
Speaker 1: me if we had a more grounded story and why
Speaker 1: they dislike each other, because as it stands, it just
Speaker 1: makes some really cool, interesting scenes and choices kind of
Speaker 1: feel less impactful and cool. But uh, and ultimately, it
Speaker 1: is the women who suffer for what is presented at
Speaker 1: the beginning as a societal ill, and yet it is
Speaker 1: still all these two women who have to suffer the
Speaker 1: eternal consequences of it, and we're punished for it, which
Speaker 1: is a weird message to leave it off. Um. I
Speaker 1: wanted to do a quick little context moment for um
Speaker 1: this movies. Um, So I was just so thrown off
Speaker 1: by you calling it a context moment corner Jamie's context corner. Uh.
Speaker 1: This movie has a massive queer following. I wasn't aware
Speaker 1: of the extent of the queer legacy of this movie,
Speaker 1: but there was a terrific piece that came out in
Speaker 1: Vanity Fair on this exact topic, with extensive reporting that
Speaker 1: came out two years ago. It was written by Christie Pouchko,
Speaker 1: So thank you for doing all this. Um it gives
Speaker 1: a little bit of background on the production of the
Speaker 1: movie as well as how it is gained a you're
Speaker 1: following over time because this movie wasn't super successful when
Speaker 1: it came out, and it also was not well reviewed.
Speaker 1: Um it just broke its budget domestically and then ended
Speaker 1: up making some money internationally, but it definitely wasn't considered
Speaker 1: anyone's best. It wasn't nominated for anything except visual effects.
Speaker 1: A lot of the interviews are a lot of the
Speaker 1: pole quotes are from David cup kick ko E p
Speaker 1: p is it kept kept Let's he he gave some
Speaker 1: insight into what they were going for. He says, quote
Speaker 1: it was meant to be Knight of the Living Dead
Speaker 1: if George q Core had directed it, which I think
Speaker 1: is kind of a fun reference. It felt like no
Speaker 1: risk whatsoever because we both had nothing but credit card
Speaker 1: debt to our names. There was nowhere to go but up.
Speaker 1: So this was this was basically written to be and
Speaker 1: the original casting choices kind of revealed that it was
Speaker 1: written to be a B movie. And then because Robert
Speaker 1: Zemeckis had a lot of clout and wanted to direct
Speaker 1: the movie. All of a sudden it was elevated to
Speaker 1: a big budget level. Well so there, which I feel
Speaker 1: like you can kind of in a good way, feel
Speaker 1: that dissonance of like, why is Bruce Willis in this movie?
Speaker 1: Why would like the this movie could have been made
Speaker 1: for a lot less money, But I'm kind of glad
Speaker 1: it wasn't, you know, like they it looks like it
Speaker 1: cost fifty five million dollars um. But what this has
Speaker 1: inspired a lot of In addition to the movie being
Speaker 1: screened at Pride events quite a bit, um is there
Speaker 1: have been a lot of like iconic drag performances inspired
Speaker 1: by Death Becomes Her to the point where it was
Speaker 1: a specific runway challenge on RuPaul's drag race at some
Speaker 1: point um where Violet cho key one um for the
Speaker 1: most intensely since waste I've ever seen in my entire life.
Speaker 1: You can look it up. It was so good. Later
Speaker 1: in the article, David kepp Is asked why I think
Speaker 1: this is a very fun question to ask him because
Speaker 1: old men are so doofy sometimes. They asked him, why
Speaker 1: do you think this movie has a mass such a
Speaker 1: big queer following, and he has this to say, quote,
Speaker 1: you really can't underestimate the entertainment value of two women
Speaker 1: swinging shovels at each other, uh, and then the other
Speaker 1: the other all he said yes, and then his coat,
Speaker 1: and then his co writer says quote, I could invent
Speaker 1: some excuse, but deep down in my heart, I do
Speaker 1: not know. So, I mean it's like they're I mean,
Speaker 1: they're just like kind of like, we've never talked to
Speaker 1: a gay person, so right, so they're like, I guess
Speaker 1: it worked out for us. Um the winner of drag
Speaker 1: Ray Sieves In five, jerk Hoffer had that's Jinx Monsoon,
Speaker 1: Yes one under Jinx Monsoon. But interviewed did this interview
Speaker 1: under Jack Hoffer took on like the Death Becomes Her
Speaker 1: themed photo shoot like has a history drain. Here's what
Speaker 1: Jack has to say, quote, I think this is a
Speaker 1: trait that runs throughout the queer community, the obsession with
Speaker 1: the hyper femine and female villains. And we see it
Speaker 1: in Disney movies and in movies like Death Becomes Her
Speaker 1: and in characters like Poison Ivy and Catwoman. Almost all
Speaker 1: the Disney villain which is are gay icons, which is
Speaker 1: I mean, we've discussed at length here and they continue,
Speaker 1: uh quote. I think it's a combination of it being
Speaker 1: a strong female character, who who you love, how evil
Speaker 1: she is. You know. I don't know why that is
Speaker 1: a trait that appears to queer people so much, but
Speaker 1: it's pretty consistent amongst the queer community. I think it
Speaker 1: has something to do is feeling like outcasts and imagining
Speaker 1: yourself in this position of power where even though you're
Speaker 1: the outcast, you still have some kind of power and
Speaker 1: strength within you. So yeah, and then finally, quote, I
Speaker 1: think it's really feminist that they're willing to take their
Speaker 1: lives into their own hands and do whatever it takes,
Speaker 1: be willing to spray paint themselves and fill themselves with
Speaker 1: cement or whatever to just uphold themselves and try to
Speaker 1: stay in command. So there you go. That is, in brief,
Speaker 1: the History of Death becomes her as a iconic queer
Speaker 1: movie as well. Ye, beautiful, thanks for the context corner.
Speaker 1: You're welcome. Yeah, I'm glad. I mean we talked about
Speaker 1: this a fair amount to where certain movies have become
Speaker 1: like queer icon texts, not because there are any queer
Speaker 1: characters in them, because there are often not in most
Speaker 1: mainstream movies. Yeah, even in like It's it's just it's
Speaker 1: it's cool to understand the history of how movies become
Speaker 1: iconic in any community. Like it's cool. And I knew
Speaker 1: so little about this movie to begin with that, like
Speaker 1: having context for that drag race competition was great for me. Yeah,
Speaker 1: it was great because I had watched it before and
Speaker 1: been like, what is that? I don't know? And now
Speaker 1: I know, I understand. You know, I'm learning. Um do
Speaker 1: anything else you want to hit on? Just the Helen
Speaker 1: Sharp first has a cat and then has many cats,
Speaker 1: and cats have eight nipples. That's facts with Caitlin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I think that's about it. Though. Yeah, I enjoyed this
Speaker 1: movie quite a bit. I'm happy it will be continued
Speaker 1: to watch for years to come. I think it is
Speaker 1: the kind of movie that even though it's flaws I
Speaker 1: think are pretty glaring, I find them so glaring that
Speaker 1: it is almost like people can continue to watch it.
Speaker 1: Does that make sense? Yeah, where it's not like a
Speaker 1: subtle poison being put into like the veins of a
Speaker 1: movie where you're like, oh no, I'm red pilt, you know,
Speaker 1: like it is so it is so wildly campy that
Speaker 1: it's not like very very small doses of arsenic that
Speaker 1: you take over the course of several months and then
Speaker 1: die from it. It's like the poison apple with like
Speaker 1: the poison symbol painted onto the apple and try this
Speaker 1: is fun. They're perfect analogy. Yeah, I mean, just a
Speaker 1: movie trying to tackle the subject of like women aging
Speaker 1: and how society believes that that's not a thing that
Speaker 1: should be allowed at all, you know, and and approaching
Speaker 1: that topic in a very way, and that it only
Speaker 1: tackles it in the context of upper class, straight white women. Um.
Speaker 1: But in terms of the time, I mean, there's not
Speaker 1: a lot of movies in that are trying to address
Speaker 1: the concept of women aging at all. It's the horror
Speaker 1: of women at all, of women so right, and and
Speaker 1: so I think in that it has a valuable place
Speaker 1: in history in addition to being a fun watch with
Speaker 1: some really incredible how the performances performances, But it is
Speaker 1: the the outfits in this movie are really Next, let
Speaker 1: me say my one last piece. I think maybe and
Speaker 1: this doesn't justify this at all, but perhaps the reason
Speaker 1: that we cut to the seven years or where we
Speaker 1: see Goldie Han like completely in crisis and like mentally
Speaker 1: crumbling and all of that. Is that that's when she
Speaker 1: we don't see her do this, of course, because it
Speaker 1: has to be a reveal later on, but that's when
Speaker 1: we understand her to take the potion because she says
Speaker 1: she takes it October. That would be seven years after
Speaker 1: when the movie opens in about October. That is the
Speaker 1: day of the temporal junction point of the space time continuum.
Speaker 1: According to Back to the Future, another Robert zemeckis Galaxy Brain,
Speaker 1: so we needs actually exist in the same universe Galaxy Brain.
Speaker 1: I love it. It makes me happy. I didn't understand
Speaker 1: And you know, we did cover Back to the Future
Speaker 1: on the Matreon as well. It did not fare well,
Speaker 1: but it's still a movie I deeply, deeply love. So
Speaker 1: that's my cross to bear. Yeah, fortunately it isn't mine. Um,
Speaker 1: But I do like a good Billy Zane joint, which
Speaker 1: I think is how Back to the Future is remembered
Speaker 1: um as one of best perfermances. But yeah, I mean,
Speaker 1: I yeah, this this I would genuinely like recommend watch
Speaker 1: this movie with your friends. It's a blast. I'm sure
Speaker 1: there's a great drinking game for this movie somewhere. Um,
Speaker 1: But you know that's why we're here to just you know,
Speaker 1: keep you humble. But you know, hey, it's not as
Speaker 1: good as you think it is, but it's still pretty good.
Speaker 1: That's our job. Does this movie pass the Bectel test?
Speaker 1: It does? It does. Between Madeline and Helen, Between Madeline
Speaker 1: and Liesl. There's a few other conversations with a very
Speaker 1: tertiary female characters who don't get named, that don't pass
Speaker 1: the Bectel test. But there are women interacting, and there
Speaker 1: is a lot of talk about, like I feel like,
Speaker 1: even slightly edging out the Bruce Willis talk. There is
Speaker 1: a lot of talk about jealousy and fractures within the friendship. Um.
Speaker 1: And often men will come up because the conflict between
Speaker 1: them is underwritten. But you do they do like that
Speaker 1: some of the dialogue is like left for us to
Speaker 1: kind of explore this conflict, although it comes away too
Speaker 1: late in the movie. But yeah, so you know it
Speaker 1: does pass. Sure. Does What would you rate the film?
Speaker 1: Probably pretty low? Um? I mean, here's okay, I was
Speaker 1: gonna say this earlier. For all of its faults, all
Speaker 1: of the action in this movie is driven by the
Speaker 1: female characters. Bruce Willis has, like you were saying, is
Speaker 1: reduced to no agency like female characters often are. He
Speaker 1: becomes kind of this flaccid tool weapon, screaming, squealing, hysterical
Speaker 1: to be used by the two female here to. So
Speaker 1: in that way, I think it is very unusual and
Speaker 1: cool women are. But then he is given agency like
Speaker 1: the climax, and it's almost like he was climax and
Speaker 1: then he's yeah, exactly, I have to. I don't like
Speaker 1: the way this movie ends. One and a half, one
Speaker 1: and a half maybe two. I was gonna give it
Speaker 1: to Okay, I'll go to nip for each of them.
Speaker 1: This gets a five million on the Campo meter, but
Speaker 1: that's not what we're here for. Uh. In terms of
Speaker 1: maybe we should do that podcast Ika, Yeah, new Patreon
Speaker 1: tier strictly discussing camp the Campo meter, but this is
Speaker 1: like Campo meter a plus. But in terms of how
Speaker 1: the movie treat this family characters, I would say about
Speaker 1: two because they do lose in the end, which doesn't
Speaker 1: they're punished for, you know, wanting to And that's the
Speaker 1: other thing, Like, yes, society has these rigid expectations about
Speaker 1: women and women aging. Women will also be criticized. We're
Speaker 1: trying to like participate in like I'm going to try
Speaker 1: to not look like I'm aging so much kind of thing,
Speaker 1: and then women are also punished for that. Well, it's
Speaker 1: just like, well, what can't you just like age naturally?
Speaker 1: And it's like, because you fucking won't let me take society.
Speaker 1: Well the Yeah, I feel like the movie like at
Speaker 1: some points it reaches like, oh, it looks like it's
Speaker 1: about to make a really cool point, and then it
Speaker 1: punishes the female character were making the choice that they've explained,
Speaker 1: it made it clear why they're making that choice, and
Speaker 1: then they're like, well, whatever funk are anyways, and you're
Speaker 1: just like that's not fair. My ideal ending for this
Speaker 1: movie is that once they become friends again, they discuss, okay,
Speaker 1: this was our conflict, we both killed each other, we're even. Then,
Speaker 1: instead of going after Bruce Willis, they like find a
Speaker 1: more like a large, like societal target, and like, instead
Speaker 1: of going after this one person that they've been using
Speaker 1: as a tool this whole time, go after someone who
Speaker 1: has actually inflicted harm upon them and go after that. Like,
Speaker 1: I feel like that's a more logical target, especially if
Speaker 1: you get that cool moment of them uniting, right, it's like,
Speaker 1: why would you go out to Bruce Willis? Right? I
Speaker 1: do like when they come together and form this like
Speaker 1: friendship again. But yeah, the third act of this movie
Speaker 1: is a mess, and they should there should be like
Speaker 1: maybe like a movie director who's like, I'm not going
Speaker 1: to cast you anymore, Mary because you've gotten too old,
Speaker 1: or even just like someone who's set up a little
Speaker 1: bit earlier of someone who has done actual harm or
Speaker 1: encouraged conflict among them or something like that, where because
Speaker 1: going for Bruce Willis it doesn't make a ton of sense,
Speaker 1: and then he ends up winning and you're just like
Speaker 1: I don't like that either, Like there was a cooler
Speaker 1: in trajectory for them, and they should have one because
Speaker 1: we're woting for them. Should have had us write the
Speaker 1: movie really like I know that we barely existed at
Speaker 1: this time that they should have led us. Yeah, you
Speaker 1: were a fetus, maybe a fetis and I was six
Speaker 1: years old in the first grade. I think that that's
Speaker 1: an amazing that's a really cool progressive strandwriting team is
Speaker 1: and we would have been able to comment on aging
Speaker 1: women as a fetus and a six year old, So
Speaker 1: there are the better choice than two men. Isn't that
Speaker 1: insane someone who hasn't been born as a better choice,
Speaker 1: But it is true in the in this case of yeah,
Speaker 1: it's just it's good intentions. But I feel like, you know,
Speaker 1: with the benefit of time, we now understand that, um,
Speaker 1: two men are very rarely going to write a realistic,
Speaker 1: compelling relationship between two women, whether it's like gritty realism
Speaker 1: or camp. It just you just you just need someone
Speaker 1: in the room. So two nippies kicking one each of
Speaker 1: them same, I'll do the same. Yea. Now they both
Speaker 1: got a full second for them. Congratulations Isabella, you're out
Speaker 1: of luck. And folks, that was the Death Becomes Her episode.
Speaker 1: Thanks for tuning in, and we just wanted to remind
Speaker 1: you that was an unlocked Matreon episode. If you want
Speaker 1: seventy plus more episodes like that, they're all over at
Speaker 1: Patreon dot com, slash the Bechtel Cast, slash Bechtel Cast.
Speaker 1: Sorry my brain is putting um Patreon dot com slash
Speaker 1: Bechtel Cast. You will get two extra episodes a month
Speaker 1: and a Titanic bonus dream for September, one of many
Speaker 1: Titanic bonuses on the Matreon because we also have a
Speaker 1: three hour and fourteen minutes commentary track in which we
Speaker 1: watched Titanic and commented on it. We have one where
Speaker 1: we're drunk on Thanksgiving watching Titanic a couple of years ago.
Speaker 1: That's a fun one, and then we have another one
Speaker 1: that I don't remember why we I think that one
Speaker 1: was just everything we didn't cover in the first one.
Speaker 1: The second that the follow up aisode was pretty comprehensive
Speaker 1: of like everything we've learned about Titanic since our first
Speaker 1: episode with a parliament nantrella, which is on this and
Speaker 1: it's dense. Papers could be written, Please don't write them. Well,
Speaker 1: here's the thing. I want to do another Titanic episode, obviously,
Speaker 1: because I've completely come around on a bunch of things,
Speaker 1: even since the last time we recorded. Okay, I'm I'm
Speaker 1: fully down. Yeah, Team Fabritt CEO, That's what I'm that's
Speaker 1: my news stance. Also, this this is our first This
Speaker 1: is our first time doing Titanic since we realized the
Speaker 1: whole DiCaprio fully closed underwater, which really changes your read
Speaker 1: of the entire movie. You we have to look at
Speaker 1: it from an entirely New lens Now cinematic language is
Speaker 1: so dense. Uh oh my, you can just I mean,
Speaker 1: we'll listen to this episode in the future and be like, wow,
Speaker 1: the air quality was just not good. Uh the We're like, no,
Speaker 1: it's the thematic implications of Leonardo DiCaprio being underwater while
Speaker 1: he's wearing clothes. It means something everythang. Uh, we love you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for bearing with us. Also remember to um
Speaker 1: check out our Titanic or no our our Twilight live stream.
Speaker 1: Our Twilight live stream is next Friday. Jacob benefiting Fatima
Speaker 1: eball zoo fair Um, she is the best. Will be
Speaker 1: posting about it NonStop. We can't wait. And if you
Speaker 1: want to get merch, that's over t public dot com
Speaker 1: slash the beck Doel Cast. Follow us on social media
Speaker 1: at your leisure at becktel Cast, especially because we're going
Speaker 1: to be um posting all the information about the Twilight
Speaker 1: live read slash roast on our social media platform. We're
Speaker 1: gonna be real annoying about it. You're not going to
Speaker 1: miss it. Uh, so we hope to see you at
Speaker 1: the Twilight hang and nothing into the episode, right, I
Speaker 1: think so we didn't we didn't cut it down uh
Speaker 1: bye right bye bye