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Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff

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Speaker 1: Works dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm

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Speaker 1: Caroline and I'm Kristen, And for part two of our

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Speaker 1: Armchair Psychology Week, Kris and I are talking about passive

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Speaker 1: aggressive behavior SLASH really having some come to Jesus thoughts

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Speaker 1: as we research for this episode, UM, I selfishly requested

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Speaker 1: that we cover the passive aggressive topic because I myself

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Speaker 1: have struggled with passive aggressive behavior in the past. I'm

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Speaker 1: supposed to say it like that according to my therapist,

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Speaker 1: not just that I am passive aggressive. Well, I'm really

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Speaker 1: relieved to hear you say that, Caroline, because it could

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Speaker 1: have also been you selfishly wanted to do this podcast

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Speaker 1: so as to better learn how to deal with passive

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Speaker 1: aggressive people you might podcast with. Because this research also

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Speaker 1: it was very eye opening for me as well in

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Speaker 1: terms of my communication style, my conflict resolution style, particularly

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Speaker 1: when it comes to relationships. And one thing we're going

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Speaker 1: to focus on two is this idea that women are

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Speaker 1: more passive aggressive than men. It's a pretty common stereotype.

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Speaker 1: Google will auto fill it for you if you start

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Speaker 1: searching around. So we wanted to find out what passive

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Speaker 1: aggressive behavior really is where it comes from, whether in

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Speaker 1: fact it is more of a female gendered behavior, and

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Speaker 1: how to deal with it both in other people and

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Speaker 1: also in yourselves and ourselves personally, Caroline, are really learning

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Speaker 1: a lot this week on the podcast. We are I

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Speaker 1: know between O C D and O C p D

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Speaker 1: and now p a passive aggressive behavior? But what what

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Speaker 1: is it? What is it? Exactly? Uh? Passive aggressive behavior

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Speaker 1: is a pattern of indirectly expressing negative feelings instead of

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Speaker 1: just openly addressing them. There ends up being this disconnect

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Speaker 1: between what a passive aggressive person is saying and what

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Speaker 1: she ends up doing. So, for instance, when my fiance says,

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Speaker 1: is it fine if I cleaned the bathroom tomorrow instead?

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Speaker 1: And my responses, yeah, sure, yeah, no, yeah, no, it's fine.

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Speaker 1: I mean, you know what, I'll actually just do it

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Speaker 1: because that's fine. That that is passive aggressive rightly exactly.

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Speaker 1: And there are so many of those examples that I

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Speaker 1: feel like we'll crop up throughout this episode because I

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Speaker 1: myself also have a lifetime of them. Okay, so what

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Speaker 1: does it look like beyond just telling your fiance or

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Speaker 1: your roommate or whoever, Oh no, that's fine, I'll just

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Speaker 1: do it myself. Um well, it involves resentment and opposition

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Speaker 1: to the demands of other people, particularly to just routine

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Speaker 1: work and social tasks. And so this involves a lot

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Speaker 1: of kind of uh on purpose foot dragging, so procrastination,

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Speaker 1: you might even insert intentional mistakes in response to other

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Speaker 1: people's demands, because the key here is that passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: people view just like simple requests or obligations or work

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Speaker 1: tasks as super serious, awful demands. This also reminds me,

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Speaker 1: Caroline of one of my favorite scenes in the classic

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Speaker 1: summer camp film Wet Hot American Summer, in which Paul

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Speaker 1: Rudd's character is asked to pick up something that he

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Speaker 1: left on the table in the cafeteria or like throw

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Speaker 1: away his trash or something very simple like that, and

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Speaker 1: his like full bodied, like dragging response of like flailing

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Speaker 1: around and taking so much unnecessary time just to do

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Speaker 1: that simple task is such a perfect satirized example of

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Speaker 1: passive aggressive behavior, just like, oh, are you kidding? I

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Speaker 1: can't throw away the track? I know. I love that,

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Speaker 1: And it is the perfect physical embodiment of this example.

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Speaker 1: And I am excited to get more into this episode

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Speaker 1: because we are going to talk about where that like

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Speaker 1: resentment of demands comes from. But let's continue talking about

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Speaker 1: what passive aggressive behavior looks like. It also includes things

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Speaker 1: like vacillating wildly between hostile defiance and contrition, so almost

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Speaker 1: like you're realizing with the logical part of your brain, like, oh,

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Speaker 1: I kind of seemed like a jerk just then. It

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Speaker 1: also could include, you know, we mentioned that on purpose

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Speaker 1: foot dragging. It also includes a cynical, sullen or hostile attitude,

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Speaker 1: so you might just act DNS on purpose, or perhaps

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Speaker 1: defend an indefensible position or fact or opinion just for

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Speaker 1: the sake of doing so. But it could also include

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Speaker 1: and this is where it gets a little real, Kristen, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it could also include the withdrawal of support, presence, or attention.

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Speaker 1: And this is sort of the crossing your arms and

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Speaker 1: saying fine and walking away. I in my relationships have

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Speaker 1: been super guilty of this, where if somebody does something

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Speaker 1: and I don't agree with it, or it makes me

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Speaker 1: feel bad or I think there's a better way, etcetera, etcetera,

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Speaker 1: on and on, I might just you know, go to

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Speaker 1: the other room and be like fine, okay, a little

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Speaker 1: a little bit of the silent treatment, a little bit

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Speaker 1: of the silent treatment, and I'm actively working on getting

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Speaker 1: better about having those direct conversations. But I'm not perfect.

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Speaker 1: It's it's progress, not perfection. And I will say to Caroline,

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Speaker 1: since we are being uncharacteristically candid in this podcast episode,

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Speaker 1: listeners might might be a little weirded out right now, um,

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Speaker 1: but I will say that the acting dnse ring a

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Speaker 1: bell with me in terms of relationships, where you do

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Speaker 1: the passive aggressive behavior can turn into you playing dumb,

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Speaker 1: which turns the situation around on the other person to

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Speaker 1: put them in the position of being on the offense. Therefore,

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Speaker 1: you're the poor little victim playing defense and just asking

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Speaker 1: asking questions that really can't be answered because the truth is,

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Speaker 1: you know the answers already. And in addition to these

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Speaker 1: kinds of things, passive aggressive behavior can also include frequent

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Speaker 1: complaints about feeling under appreciated or cheated. This includes envious

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Speaker 1: attitudes and behaviors towards people who seem more fortunate. There

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Speaker 1: was also two gossiping and other pot stirring tactics to

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Speaker 1: turn opinion against someone, and this reminds me also of

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Speaker 1: our splet shaming podcast for sure. Well not only are

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Speaker 1: split shaming podcast, but a lot of this also reminds

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Speaker 1: me of the episode we did on Shine Theory talking

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Speaker 1: about female friendship and and good versus bad motivations for

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Speaker 1: a kind of aligning yourself with someone basically, but yes,

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Speaker 1: it's that effort to sort of hide your own envious

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Speaker 1: or jealous or insecure feelings and behavior by putting the

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Speaker 1: focus on someone else and saying, look at what they're

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Speaker 1: doing wrong, trying to turn opinion against that person in

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Speaker 1: favor of yourself, and one really casual, kind of charming

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Speaker 1: sometimes way to do that is through the use of

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Speaker 1: sarcastic jokes. Yeah, yeah, I'm probably guilty of that myself,

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Speaker 1: as with a lot of this stuff that I'm trying

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Speaker 1: to get better at. Um. But part of all of this, too,

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Speaker 1: is it past aggressive people tend to be super sensitive

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Speaker 1: and hyper alert to any nuances they're They're looking for

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Speaker 1: hidden meanings that somebody could be saying something or doing

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Speaker 1: something that is negative towards them. So this grab bag

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Speaker 1: of passive aggressive behaviors makes it pretty clear why passive

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Speaker 1: aggression has such a wretched reputation, because it is a

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Speaker 1: pretty wretched and unhealthy and cyclical set of things that

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Speaker 1: we can do. But why why do people use passive aggression?

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Speaker 1: We found a lot of insight in a column by

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Speaker 1: Sidney Whitson over at Psychology Today kind of walks through

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Speaker 1: a number of reasons why passive aggressive behavior becomes a crutch.

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Speaker 1: And one of the big things is the fact that

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Speaker 1: anger just expressing your anger outright is often socially unacceptable,

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Speaker 1: and I will say particularly for women. Yeah, and along

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Speaker 1: those same lines, being indirectly aggressive or passive aggressive is

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Speaker 1: easier than just being assertive. I mean, this is a

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Speaker 1: thing being assertive and not being a jerk. Just saying

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Speaker 1: what you feel or what you think, or just stating

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Speaker 1: in opinion, that's not always easy for a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: And that's something that you really have to be taught

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Speaker 1: from a young age, how to express yourself without trampling

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Speaker 1: over someone else's thoughts or feelings in the process for

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Speaker 1: risk being perceived as say, bossy, yeah, exactly. There's so

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Speaker 1: many nuanced, gendered things in this whole passive aggressive package. Um,

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Speaker 1: it's also useful lot because it's so easily justified and rationalized. Christen,

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Speaker 1: kind of what you were saying earlier about turning things

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Speaker 1: around on the person. It's like, uh, you can cast

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Speaker 1: yourself as the victim and blame your failures on someone

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Speaker 1: else's quote unquote unreasonable demands. You know, if mom asks

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Speaker 1: you to make your bed, you can somehow turn it

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Speaker 1: around into being like, well, nothing I ever do is

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Speaker 1: good enough. Apparently I can't, you know, do my chores

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Speaker 1: well enough for you? You can't understand how stressful my

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Speaker 1: life is. I have a test coming up right exactly.

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Speaker 1: And another kind of icky aspect of passive aggressive behavior

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Speaker 1: and motivations behind it is that passive aggressive people tend

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Speaker 1: to uh enjoy the revenge aspect. They use tactics that

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Speaker 1: are designed to sort of get back at a person

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Speaker 1: that they perceived as making unreasonable demands on them, but

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Speaker 1: without anyone detecting the underlying anger. So it's not that

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Speaker 1: I'm like gonna, you know, saw part of the leg

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Speaker 1: of your chair off so that when you sit down

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Speaker 1: and then it falls over. I don't know why. I

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Speaker 1: thank you, yeah, thank you for doing that to me.

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Speaker 1: I wouldn't do that, But I mean, in general, not

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Speaker 1: just in this example, Kristen, don't worry. But someone who

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Speaker 1: is passive aggressive might call out sick, for instance, when

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Speaker 1: they feel that their boss is making too many demands

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Speaker 1: on them and that might end up sabotaging the boss's deadlines.

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Speaker 1: And then the boss gets in trouble, but you look

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Speaker 1: completely innocent because you were just outsick. After all, people

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Speaker 1: are making all sorts of demands on you. You deserve

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Speaker 1: a day off well. And that example with the boss

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Speaker 1: is a perfect segue to how passive aggressive behavior can

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Speaker 1: also bestow this false sense of power, because when wielded artfully,

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Speaker 1: you are in control of the situation exactly, And that

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Speaker 1: when other people experience this agnitive dissonance of being like, wait,

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Speaker 1: I'm not really sure what's going on. You seem innocent,

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Speaker 1: like you're not angry or doing anything to hurt me,

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Speaker 1: but I feel like I'm being hurt or something's wrong.

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Speaker 1: That puts you in control of a whole other person's

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Speaker 1: feelings and emotions. Now, passive aggressive behavior can help avoid

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Speaker 1: costly confrontations. For instance, in a work setting, you know

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Speaker 1: where you can't or you feel that you can't be

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Speaker 1: outright assertive, But I mean, think about those people at

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Speaker 1: work at various jobs you've had, or various classes you've

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Speaker 1: taken over the course of your lifetime. Even if passive

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Speaker 1: aggressive behavior helps avoid a costly conflict, it's still icky.

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Speaker 1: It's still somebody making a joke like, hey, Bob, so

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Speaker 1: you couldn't stop drinking early enough last night to get

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Speaker 1: into work on time. It's like, okay, well, what are

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Speaker 1: you really saying with that comment? What you're really doing

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Speaker 1: is criticizing a coworker or a classmate for behavior that

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Speaker 1: you don't approve of, to make sure that they know

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Speaker 1: that you don't approve of it. Yeah, instead of just Bob,

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Speaker 1: could you come to work on time please? And maybe

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Speaker 1: start showering because there's an odor Now. On a deeper level, too,

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Speaker 1: passive aggressive behavior might also be rooted in a caution,

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Speaker 1: a fear of failure and embarrassment. It's establishing kind of

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Speaker 1: a layer between you and a potential hazard that you

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Speaker 1: might see, whether that is some kind of confrontation where

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Speaker 1: you risk being reprimanded or being called out um or

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Speaker 1: the risk, say in a relationship scenario, of putting yourself

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Speaker 1: out there and feeling vulnerable, of expressing your emotions and saying, hey,

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Speaker 1: this actually hurt my feelings, and this is this is

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Speaker 1: me being really vulnerable in this moment and instead you

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Speaker 1: kind of protect yourself and being pass aggressive about it,

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Speaker 1: and that convert that hypothetical conversation you just had about Hey,

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Speaker 1: I'm going to make myself vulnerable. Here is an excellent

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Speaker 1: practice to have when you're in a serious relationship or

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Speaker 1: you know, or hip, or any relationship with another person

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Speaker 1: that you want to be healthy and continue for a

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Speaker 1: long time. It's good to say, hey, I'm vulnerable. But

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Speaker 1: researchers have found that people who have those super cautious

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Speaker 1: personality styles and have a hyper sensitivity to rejection were

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Speaker 1: way more likely than others to respond to relationship conflicts

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Speaker 1: by doing things like going silent or withdrawing their affection,

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Speaker 1: going cold, doing the whole silent treatment thing. So, since

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Speaker 1: we've outlined all of these different components to passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: behavior and all of the different ways that it can

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Speaker 1: manifest in all the different ways it might be rooted

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Speaker 1: inside of us, the next question is is it just

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Speaker 1: a personality trait that some of us might have or

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Speaker 1: is it a mental health disorder? And I will see

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Speaker 1: going into the research for this episode, I didn't think

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Speaker 1: of passive aggressive behavior as a disorder. It was just

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Speaker 1: something irksome that certain people do, and historically it has

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Speaker 1: been considered a disorder, well historically in the twentieth century,

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Speaker 1: I should say, so we should go ahead and lay

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Speaker 1: out there that pass aggressive behavior itself can be an

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Speaker 1: aspect of various mental health conditions, but it is not

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Speaker 1: considered to be its own mental illness. But there is

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Speaker 1: a controversial history that we will dive into all right now.

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Speaker 1: So pass aggressive behavior as a disorder was really first

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Speaker 1: documented during World War Two. It was used to describe

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Speaker 1: soldiers who refused to comply with what demands. So there

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Speaker 1: was this War Department memo where they were basically talking

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Speaker 1: about how, hey, our guys in the armed services aren't

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Speaker 1: being openly defiant, but you know what, We've noticed that

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Speaker 1: they are expressing their anger and their aggression through quote

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Speaker 1: passive measures such as pouting, stubbornness, procrastination, inefficiency, and passive obstructionism.

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Speaker 1: And they just figured that this was an immature and

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Speaker 1: neurotic reaction to root military stress. And it was in

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Speaker 1: the wake of this memo that this idea of passive

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Speaker 1: aggressive behavior or a passive aggressive personality disorder really earned

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Speaker 1: a foothold in military medical literature and once it was there,

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Speaker 1: once it had its foothold, the American psychological community took

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Speaker 1: notice and adopted the concept, and initially they outlined three

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Speaker 1: distinct types of this passive aggressive disorder, which is passive dependent,

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Speaker 1: passive aggressive, and then just outright aggressive, which to me

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Speaker 1: that was a little confusing about how aggressive could fit

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Speaker 1: under a passion aggressive umbrella. But maybe those psychologists were

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Speaker 1: just being a little pass aggressive about it, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: So in the nineteen fifties, in preparation for the First

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Speaker 1: Diagnostic and Statistical Manual, which we talk about a lot

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Speaker 1: whenever we talk about mental health issues, the American Psychiatric

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Speaker 1: Association borrowed the military's phrasing and applied diagnostic codes to

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Speaker 1: it and named it passive rest of personality disorder. And

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Speaker 1: it was so fascinating to me, Caroline, that this whole thing,

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Speaker 1: this entire language that we have for the set of behaviors,

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Speaker 1: just rooted back to World War Two and soldiers being like,

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Speaker 1: really do I have to know? I don't I really

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Speaker 1: don't want to do this, but not saying that, oh

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Speaker 1: yeah no, they're not saying, hey, I don't want to

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Speaker 1: do this. They're just like, I'm just gonna pick up

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Speaker 1: my tree real slow. They were pulling a Paul Rud

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Speaker 1: Paul Rudd in like a military uniform, yes, please, dragging

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Speaker 1: his body around. Well, so what happens once this condition

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Speaker 1: is added to the Diagnostic Statistical Manual is what happens

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Speaker 1: a lot of times when things are added to the

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Speaker 1: d s M. Suddenly everybody is being labeled with pathologic

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Speaker 1: quote unquote trait disturbances that had to be treated. And

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Speaker 1: this is coming from Christopher Lane at Northwestern University, and

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Speaker 1: I think that he was quoted in a New York

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Speaker 1: Times article and Lane talks about how the American Psychiatric

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Speaker 1: Association was not simply over dramatizing team behaviors, it was

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Speaker 1: relabeling them malfunctions of biology and neurology, the direction in

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Speaker 1: which American psychiatry overall was heading. And according to Lane,

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Speaker 1: they outlawed pouting. And this gets at the controversy over

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Speaker 1: labeling passive aggression as a disorder because it also infers

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Speaker 1: a hidden motive. So some therapists and researchers have raised

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Speaker 1: an eyebrow at that, saying, are we kind of just

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Speaker 1: digging a little too much? Like looking for something filling

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Speaker 1: in blanks on our own to try to get to

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Speaker 1: this diagnosis. Um. Now, there is a side note in

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Speaker 1: the nineteen sixties Worth mentioning that some researchers at the

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Speaker 1: time didn't think that women's aggression specifically was worth studying

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Speaker 1: because women were assumed not to be aggressive. So, keeping

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Speaker 1: in mind the title of this podcast is our women

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Speaker 1: more passive aggressive due to the whole stereo to hype,

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Speaker 1: that was a really fast, uh turnaround from where this

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Speaker 1: entire thing originated, which it was all focused on men soldiers. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and you know women, How could women be aggressive at all?

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Speaker 1: They're so happy cooking? Yes, yes, um, well so then

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Speaker 1: when we fast forward to night and they're working on

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Speaker 1: the ds M three, this is when research researchers start thinking, oh,

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Speaker 1: we'll wait a second, maybe this passive aggression reflects a

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Speaker 1: specific behavioral response to specific situations rather than a broad

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Speaker 1: personality syndrome. So that Kristen was saying, maybe we're digging

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Speaker 1: too deep and looking for something that's not really there.

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Speaker 1: And of course in the eighties we get another gender

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Speaker 1: side note because at this point researchers also start wondering

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Speaker 1: whether women are aggressive after all, but just differently after all,

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Speaker 1: you know, we're physically weaker, so maybe they think we

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Speaker 1: just have to develop other strategies to our goals. And

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Speaker 1: more on that later, But moving into with the d

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Speaker 1: s M for the American Psychiatric Association dropped passive aggressive

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Speaker 1: personality disorder and replaced it with the more watered down

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Speaker 1: diagnosis of negativistic personality disorder. And why would they do

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Speaker 1: such a thing, Caroline, Well, according to an article in

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Speaker 1: The New York Times about this passive aggression or pass

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Speaker 1: aggressive behavior, it was quote too narrow to be a

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Speaker 1: full blown diagnosis and not well enough supported by scientific

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Speaker 1: evidence to meet increasingly rigorous standards of definition. So good, obviously,

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Speaker 1: the work is being done and put into actually distinguish

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Speaker 1: between quirks, however, negative of a personality and actual personality disorders,

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Speaker 1: and so negativistic personality disorder focused really, i mean, on

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Speaker 1: a lot of the same things that passive aggressive person

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Speaker 1: personality disorder did, but it really focused in on moodiness

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Speaker 1: and resistance again to external commands. And so with this switch,

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Speaker 1: psychiatrists really begin to distinguish between passive aggressive behavior, which

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Speaker 1: most people Caroline and myself included display at times and

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Speaker 1: a passive aggressive personality, which is that ingrained habitual personality trait.

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Speaker 1: And for one psychological side note, it's also been linked

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Speaker 1: not so surprisingly with narcissistic personality disorder, which itself is

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Speaker 1: associated with fear and the decision making processes avoidance behaviors

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Speaker 1: at work. Yeah, exactly, And because the whole thing with

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Speaker 1: narcissistic personality disorder is you're employing your avoidance behaviors because

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Speaker 1: you don't want to look bad. You think you look great,

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Speaker 1: and you want to keep looking great and you don't

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Speaker 1: want to do anything that could compromise that. Um. But

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Speaker 1: with passive aggressive behavior, you're avoiding things for a whole

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Speaker 1: kind of different set of reasons. But it is linked

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Speaker 1: to things in the brain, things like the amygdala, which

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Speaker 1: is key in processing emotions and is linked to fear

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Speaker 1: and pleasure responses both which is interesting because it's like,

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Speaker 1: you're afraid of something like a conflict, but you also,

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Speaker 1: I wonder do you also then get pleasure out of

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Speaker 1: avoiding it? But anyway, it's also linked to the prefrontal cortex,

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Speaker 1: which is responsible for control and our ability to act

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Speaker 1: in socially appropriate ways. So to me, not being a

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Speaker 1: scientist or a neurologist or anything. It sounds like there's

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Speaker 1: just this sort of tug of war of fear and

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Speaker 1: pleasure and avoidance and conflict all going on. So if

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Speaker 1: we're talking about the brain, though, then that suggests to

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Speaker 1: me that there might be some nature at work with

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Speaker 1: this whole passive aggressive thing. But we also mentioned too

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Speaker 1: the socialization in terms of anger not being appropriate, particularly

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Speaker 1: for girls to exhibit directly, so that suggests some nurture.

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Speaker 1: So what's going on in nature versus nurture? Of course,

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Speaker 1: there's a little bit of a shrug when it comes

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Speaker 1: to that. I'm like, well, I don't know, because when

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Speaker 1: it comes to heritability, we're looking at the nature side

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Speaker 1: of things. A two thousand one study estimated heritability among

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Speaker 1: school age twins to be that's pretty strong. Yeah. So basically,

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Speaker 1: the higher the proportion of heritability, the stronger the resemblance

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Speaker 1: between parents and kids. And so with a fifty percent

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Speaker 1: heritability proportion, it's not saying that you get of your

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Speaker 1: passive aggression from your parents and fifty from the environment.

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Speaker 1: It's more just saying that that it's that likely to

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Speaker 1: be inherited and is actually a pretty high proportion. But

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Speaker 1: of course there's the environmental factor as well, because a

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Speaker 1: lot of these pass regressive behaviors that many books have

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Speaker 1: been written about that therapists talk about to their clients

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Speaker 1: all the time, it's traceable to childhood experiences in parenting,

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Speaker 1: which we're going to talk about more in just a minute.

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Speaker 1: So passive aggressive behavior, even this personality, this pattern could

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Speaker 1: stem from a negative set of experiences linked with things

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Speaker 1: like in effective heart or apathetic parenting, child abuse and neglect.

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Speaker 1: There are I mean, it's really sad when you start

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Speaker 1: to read about the links between first starting with the

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Speaker 1: relationship between parents, and then how that impacts the children, right,

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Speaker 1: and then how the children witnessed that relationship between the parents,

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Speaker 1: and how passive aggressive behavior might be modeled indirectly and directly,

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Speaker 1: and how we all absorb those things. And then we

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Speaker 1: grew up to become adults stating the podcast studio, realizing

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Speaker 1: our own tendencies. Yeah, And I mean I was talking

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Speaker 1: to my boyfriend about this, and I was saying, you know,

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Speaker 1: I don't specifically remember when I was really young, Like

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Speaker 1: I don't remember my parents doing anything we're saying anything

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Speaker 1: specifically that's passive aggressive but as he pointed out rightfully,

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Speaker 1: so well, if you're this little kid, you don't know

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Speaker 1: any different, you know, you just witness and then have

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Speaker 1: these behaviors modeled for you. But we're reading this chapter

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Speaker 1: in the book Family Treatment of Personality Disorders Advances in

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Speaker 1: Clinical Practice, and I did. I thought it was so

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Speaker 1: sad reading about the effect that passive aggressive behavior thoughts,

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Speaker 1: you know, speech can have on kids because they are

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Speaker 1: so malleable. We don't have to be the people to

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Speaker 1: tell you that kids pick up on everything. Um. But

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Speaker 1: the authors wrote that quote extreme contradictory parental attitudes and

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Speaker 1: inconsistent training methods um to a degree that's higher than normal. Basically,

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Speaker 1: one parent liking something and the other one doesn't, one

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Speaker 1: parent punishing something and the other one rewards it. That,

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Speaker 1: as you might imagine, leads to a lot of confusion.

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Speaker 1: The child is confused and he doesn't know what to

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Speaker 1: expect from his environment. And if a kid, a little

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Speaker 1: impressionable kid, doesn't know what to expect, then he gets

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Speaker 1: even more confused. He gets scared. He feels insecure in

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Speaker 1: his relationships and in his environment, especially when he feels

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Speaker 1: like he's incapable of influencing his own environment consistently, and

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Speaker 1: so the authors talked about how the kid will then

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Speaker 1: go on to develop a heightened sense of emotionality and

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Speaker 1: ends up opting for ambivalence rather than direct behavior. In

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Speaker 1: other words, the passive aggressive behavior is just passed on

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Speaker 1: down the line. And one of the examples that the

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Speaker 1: authors offered of that kind of contradictory behavior that a

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Speaker 1: parent might display to a child is the verbal expression

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Speaker 1: I love you coupled with a non verbal expression of getaway.

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Speaker 1: Yeah so, and that also leads to what we mentioned

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Speaker 1: a little while ago, in terms of constantly being on edge,

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Speaker 1: searching for those hidden meanings, trying to decode what someone

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Speaker 1: is really saying. Yeah, I mean, okay, So my boyfriend

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Speaker 1: has a deep voice. Naturally, it's actually are you here?

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Speaker 1: It was just the sneak Caroline CHRISTI, okay, that was weird. Um, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: he has this really deep voice, but when he's really

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Speaker 1: tired or he just woke up or whatever, it's even

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Speaker 1: deeper and flatter. So he was telling me the story

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Speaker 1: about how, um, when he used to go to this

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Speaker 1: one particular coffee shop really early every morning, he would

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Speaker 1: get up really early for work straight to the coffee

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Speaker 1: shop and he'd walk up to the barista in order

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Speaker 1: of coffee, and he'd get this look from the person

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Speaker 1: behind the counter, like are you going to have that

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Speaker 1: attitude with me? So he made it a point every

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Speaker 1: morning when he walked in two in his deep voice,

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Speaker 1: say something to the effective like hey, I would like

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Speaker 1: a coffee please, you know, without ending up sounding like

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Speaker 1: he's making fun of the person or being snide um.

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Speaker 1: But he has to actively work on that stuff. And

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Speaker 1: so I tell you that long drawn out story to

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Speaker 1: say that there have been plenty of times in our

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Speaker 1: relationship in which I am very secure and happy when

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Speaker 1: he has said something in that like low tired voice,

430
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: and I look at him and I'm like, is something wrong?

431
00:27:08,400 --> 00:27:12,280
Speaker 1: What's going on? Because I just automatically assume that there

432
00:27:12,400 --> 00:27:14,440
Speaker 1: is some hidden meaning and a lot of things that

433
00:27:14,480 --> 00:27:17,280
Speaker 1: either he or other people say, if they don't appear

434
00:27:17,320 --> 00:27:21,040
Speaker 1: to be like totally chipper. It's as though we're looking

435
00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:27,080
Speaker 1: for the emoticons, you know, just that that assurance that yes, yes,

436
00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,359
Speaker 1: this is me smiling, even though I put a period

437
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,520
Speaker 1: there instead of an exclamation point, I'm happy, or or

438
00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 1: just faking it. I know, one interesting finding, though, is

439
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:44,280
Speaker 1: that firstborn children are likely candidates to be passive aggressive.

440
00:27:44,320 --> 00:27:47,840
Speaker 1: And this is coming from psychiatrists Laurena Benjamin talking to

441
00:27:47,880 --> 00:27:51,399
Speaker 1: The New York Times, who said basically that when the

442
00:27:51,480 --> 00:27:54,800
Speaker 1: younger siblings are born, that oldest child might suddenly be

443
00:27:54,880 --> 00:27:58,200
Speaker 1: expected to take on far more extra work, keeping on

444
00:27:58,680 --> 00:28:05,200
Speaker 1: more responsibility, and then over time become gradually resentful because

445
00:28:05,240 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: of these parental demands suddenly being placed on them, and

446
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,159
Speaker 1: also I mean less attention and focus being placed solely

447
00:28:13,280 --> 00:28:16,840
Speaker 1: on them. Yeah, and this really this really hit home

448
00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,800
Speaker 1: for me um as far as Benjamin is discussing this

449
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:25,480
Speaker 1: idea of hostile cooperation, I mean, how can you cooperate

450
00:28:25,680 --> 00:28:30,000
Speaker 1: when you're hostile? But that's the core of passive aggressive behavior, thoughts, feelings,

451
00:28:30,000 --> 00:28:33,040
Speaker 1: et cetera, is that you're doing something or you're saying something,

452
00:28:33,240 --> 00:28:36,640
Speaker 1: but you don't believe it, you don't believe what's behind it.

453
00:28:37,000 --> 00:28:40,800
Speaker 1: And so Benjamin and other researchers have talked about how

454
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: passive aggressive people are full of unacknowledged contradiction of angry kindness, compliance, defiance,

455
00:28:50,080 --> 00:28:54,600
Speaker 1: and covert assertiveness. So that's got to be mentally exhausting,

456
00:28:54,720 --> 00:28:57,680
Speaker 1: right to constantly have this tug of war between what

457
00:28:57,720 --> 00:29:00,600
Speaker 1: you're saying and what you're doing. Well, it's speaking of

458
00:29:00,640 --> 00:29:03,680
Speaker 1: the tug of war. A lot of therapists would say

459
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,880
Speaker 1: that this might come from a parental dynamic where one

460
00:29:06,960 --> 00:29:11,880
Speaker 1: is dominant and the other is submissive, and the submissive

461
00:29:11,920 --> 00:29:17,240
Speaker 1: party uses passive aggression in order to deal with the

462
00:29:17,320 --> 00:29:21,200
Speaker 1: more dominant one while retaining still that dynamic. There's their

463
00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:27,560
Speaker 1: interesting relationships within the relationship between dependence and independence and

464
00:29:27,600 --> 00:29:30,760
Speaker 1: dominance and submission, and then how passive aggression sort of

465
00:29:31,040 --> 00:29:35,600
Speaker 1: we use the colorful tapestry between it all. Yeah, but

466
00:29:35,720 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 1: I mean, if if young children are witnessing their parents

467
00:29:38,680 --> 00:29:43,560
Speaker 1: exhibit these behaviors, then they essentially learned that volatile or

468
00:29:43,680 --> 00:29:47,480
Speaker 1: dominant people cannot be directly approached, that they must be

469
00:29:47,600 --> 00:29:52,880
Speaker 1: dealt with in an indirect, passive manner. But it's not

470
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:57,360
Speaker 1: all bad though, right, because about a decade ago, researchers

471
00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:00,800
Speaker 1: were saying, well, this could also sell from a quote

472
00:30:00,840 --> 00:30:07,920
Speaker 1: unquote positive place, a positive socially protective instinct, basically saying

473
00:30:07,960 --> 00:30:11,480
Speaker 1: like it's well intentioned passive aggression of saying, I really

474
00:30:11,480 --> 00:30:13,880
Speaker 1: want to keep the peace, I want to just get

475
00:30:13,920 --> 00:30:18,400
Speaker 1: through the day. Let's not have any confrontation, no conflict.

476
00:30:18,480 --> 00:30:22,280
Speaker 1: Everything should be copacetic. So I'll just use these more

477
00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:26,479
Speaker 1: indirect tactics for that. Yeah, but what's unfortunate. It's one

478
00:30:26,520 --> 00:30:29,520
Speaker 1: thing if you're ground up trying to be like ha ha, No,

479
00:30:29,640 --> 00:30:32,840
Speaker 1: this Thanksgiving dinner is perfectly fine, nothing's wrong here. Grandma's

480
00:30:32,840 --> 00:30:36,800
Speaker 1: not saying anything racist. Um, Like, that's one thing. But

481
00:30:36,880 --> 00:30:39,880
Speaker 1: when it's a child watching this stuff and learning that, oh, well,

482
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:44,120
Speaker 1: that's how you interact with other human people. Um, then

483
00:30:44,160 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 1: that's where you get the bad problems that send people

484
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:50,200
Speaker 1: to therapy to undo years of thinking that passive aggressive

485
00:30:50,240 --> 00:30:52,640
Speaker 1: behavior is okay. But yeah, we want to dive into

486
00:30:52,720 --> 00:30:55,400
Speaker 1: the gender question, of course, because it's us and we're

487
00:30:55,440 --> 00:30:59,480
Speaker 1: going to regardless. Um. But it's often assumed that passive

488
00:30:59,480 --> 00:31:03,600
Speaker 1: aggressive behavior is more often diagnosed or just exists more

489
00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: often in women, and what is up with that. There's

490
00:31:07,040 --> 00:31:09,440
Speaker 1: a couple of different theories behind it. But first of all,

491
00:31:09,760 --> 00:31:11,920
Speaker 1: we should address what we kind of talked about in

492
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:15,520
Speaker 1: our Shine Theory episode that there is a gender divide

493
00:31:15,560 --> 00:31:18,480
Speaker 1: for sure in terms of how we experience and express

494
00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:22,040
Speaker 1: our anger. And this is coming from Melissa Dittman in

495
00:31:22,080 --> 00:31:25,240
Speaker 1: a paper for the American Psychological Association in two thousand

496
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,920
Speaker 1: three UM. She cites psychologist Sandra Thomas who asserts that

497
00:31:30,960 --> 00:31:34,640
Speaker 1: we are all men, women, young, old, we are all

498
00:31:34,680 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 1: poorly served by the gender socialization that we grew up with.

499
00:31:39,080 --> 00:31:41,800
Speaker 1: Thomas says men have been encouraged to be more overt

500
00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,800
Speaker 1: with their anger. If boys have a conflict on the playground,

501
00:31:44,840 --> 00:31:47,760
Speaker 1: they acted out with their fists. Girls have been encouraged

502
00:31:47,800 --> 00:31:50,440
Speaker 1: to keep their anger down. Women usually get the message

503
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:53,760
Speaker 1: that anger is unpleasant and unfeminine, and therefore their anger

504
00:31:53,840 --> 00:31:57,400
Speaker 1: may be misdirected in a passive aggressive maneuver such as

505
00:31:57,400 --> 00:32:02,360
Speaker 1: sulking or destructive gossip. Now. She also conducted in three

506
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,760
Speaker 1: study looking at the roots of women's anger, which we

507
00:32:05,920 --> 00:32:10,040
Speaker 1: discussed in an earlier podcast on women in Anger, which

508
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:12,560
Speaker 1: would make an excellent follow up listening to this episode

509
00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:15,840
Speaker 1: if you haven't heard it already. And it found that

510
00:32:15,920 --> 00:32:18,400
Speaker 1: the main roots of women's anger, and keep in mind

511
00:32:18,400 --> 00:32:20,240
Speaker 1: this is the early nineties, curious to see how this

512
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:25,120
Speaker 1: would change today, but she identified powerlessness, injustice and the

513
00:32:25,160 --> 00:32:29,440
Speaker 1: irresponsibility of other people, which sounds to me like people

514
00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:33,520
Speaker 1: not putting their dishes in the dishwasher correctly. Yeah, I um,

515
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,440
Speaker 1: I read that, and I just went to check check check.

516
00:32:38,440 --> 00:32:41,920
Speaker 1: And especially in light of our previous episode on obsessive

517
00:32:41,920 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: compulsive disorder, when we mentioned briefly obsessive compulsive personality disorder.

518
00:32:47,080 --> 00:32:50,560
Speaker 1: And whereas an o c D person uh realizes that

519
00:32:50,600 --> 00:32:53,080
Speaker 1: their thoughts and actions are illogical, the o c p

520
00:32:53,280 --> 00:32:55,680
Speaker 1: D person thinks that they are right in a self

521
00:32:55,760 --> 00:32:58,200
Speaker 1: righteous manner. It's like, Okay, I can see how like

522
00:32:58,320 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: injustice fits in with that, like the thing that you

523
00:33:00,640 --> 00:33:03,040
Speaker 1: judged to be in just uh, and then you of

524
00:33:03,080 --> 00:33:06,160
Speaker 1: course tied him with that you judge other people to

525
00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:12,880
Speaker 1: be irresponsible. But anyway, um. Overall, according to psychologist Raymond Djiseppe,

526
00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:16,440
Speaker 1: there's really not a major difference in men's and women's

527
00:33:16,560 --> 00:33:20,800
Speaker 1: overall anger scores just in life, but we do experience

528
00:33:20,800 --> 00:33:24,800
Speaker 1: it differently. So men scored higher on physical and passive

529
00:33:24,880 --> 00:33:29,800
Speaker 1: aggression huh and experiences of impulsivity in dealing with their anger,

530
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: and they're also likelier to have a revenge motive. Meanwhile,

531
00:33:34,880 --> 00:33:38,640
Speaker 1: what are women doing? Women were found to be angrier longer,

532
00:33:39,400 --> 00:33:41,600
Speaker 1: We were found to be more resentful and less likely

533
00:33:41,680 --> 00:33:45,520
Speaker 1: to express our anger, not so surprisingly, and women were

534
00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: also likelier to write off a higher number of people

535
00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:52,680
Speaker 1: intending to never speak to them again because of their anger.

536
00:33:52,960 --> 00:33:58,400
Speaker 1: So like the eternal silent treatment doing the freeze out. Um. Now,

537
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:00,640
Speaker 1: of course there's the theory that has and batted around

538
00:34:00,720 --> 00:34:04,520
Speaker 1: quite a bit regarding that whole issue of powerlessness that

539
00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:07,960
Speaker 1: Thomas wrote about. It's that power and balance between men

540
00:34:08,000 --> 00:34:10,000
Speaker 1: and women that a lot of people assume is that

541
00:34:10,560 --> 00:34:15,080
Speaker 1: the root of women's resorting to passive aggressive behavior. And

542
00:34:15,160 --> 00:34:17,719
Speaker 1: so that chapter in the Family Treatment book that we

543
00:34:17,800 --> 00:34:21,920
Speaker 1: referenced earlier says that the passive aggressive style may be

544
00:34:22,040 --> 00:34:25,160
Speaker 1: a way for women to avoid the social stigma and

545
00:34:25,200 --> 00:34:28,360
Speaker 1: rejection that are often associated with women who are seen

546
00:34:28,560 --> 00:34:31,680
Speaker 1: as challenging or aggressive and advocating for their own needs

547
00:34:31,680 --> 00:34:36,680
Speaker 1: and wants a k A. The B word, Oh bitch, yeah,

548
00:34:36,760 --> 00:34:41,279
Speaker 1: that word not badass. And so they go on to

549
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:43,840
Speaker 1: say that the fact that this disorder may be diagnosed

550
00:34:43,840 --> 00:34:47,319
Speaker 1: more in women then in men may be an artifact

551
00:34:47,680 --> 00:34:51,319
Speaker 1: of therapists immersion in a patriarchal culture rather than a

552
00:34:51,400 --> 00:34:55,920
Speaker 1: genuine epidemiological gender difference. Oh my gosh, that makes it

553
00:34:55,960 --> 00:35:00,319
Speaker 1: all seem so inescapable. Even even our therapists or are

554
00:35:00,480 --> 00:35:04,000
Speaker 1: victims of the patriarchy, aren't we all? But you know,

555
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: I mean, historically people have not been able to agree

556
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,120
Speaker 1: about whether men or women are more likely to develop

557
00:35:11,160 --> 00:35:14,960
Speaker 1: passive aggressive behavior. Um and it could have to do

558
00:35:15,040 --> 00:35:17,600
Speaker 1: with the way that we perceive an action depending on

559
00:35:17,640 --> 00:35:22,120
Speaker 1: that actor's gender. And in the book Passive Aggression, A

560
00:35:22,160 --> 00:35:25,280
Speaker 1: Guide to the Therapist, the Patient, and the Victim, Martin

561
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:29,960
Speaker 1: Cantor writes about how, uh, some authors, for instance, focus

562
00:35:30,000 --> 00:35:32,720
Speaker 1: on passive aggression in men, or believe that it's found

563
00:35:32,719 --> 00:35:37,200
Speaker 1: in men more often. Others say that it's more prevalent

564
00:35:37,239 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 1: among women. But he cites one psychiatrist who speculates that

565
00:35:42,560 --> 00:35:47,759
Speaker 1: the reason for this is that when men display this

566
00:35:47,880 --> 00:35:51,239
Speaker 1: same passive aggressive behavior that women do, they're judged as

567
00:35:51,280 --> 00:35:55,520
Speaker 1: being tough minded, sticking to their guns, while those characteristics

568
00:35:55,520 --> 00:36:00,800
Speaker 1: among women are viewed as bitchy or passive aggressive. Of Oh,

569
00:36:00,960 --> 00:36:06,759
Speaker 1: so have we unintentionally then gendered passive aggression as a

570
00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:12,200
Speaker 1: female characteristic, even though throwing back to the origin of

571
00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 1: the very diagnosis, which started out solely with a group

572
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:19,839
Speaker 1: of men. Isn't that fascinating how we completely flipped the

573
00:36:19,880 --> 00:36:23,160
Speaker 1: script on our own. Not to say that I'm trying

574
00:36:23,200 --> 00:36:25,640
Speaker 1: to have some false competition of like who's the more

575
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:28,719
Speaker 1: passive aggressive among us? I mean, we all need to

576
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:33,560
Speaker 1: uproot passive aggression from our behaviors. But still it's kind

577
00:36:33,560 --> 00:36:38,360
Speaker 1: of incredible how quickly that stereotype developed. But of course,

578
00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,920
Speaker 1: too evolutionary biology has got to weigh in with this

579
00:36:43,000 --> 00:36:47,520
Speaker 1: because we've talked about power and balance, we've talked about anger,

580
00:36:47,600 --> 00:36:53,760
Speaker 1: the expression of anger directly, and sex differences in physical strength.

581
00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,880
Speaker 1: So what does evo bio have to say, Well that

582
00:36:58,040 --> 00:37:02,080
Speaker 1: it says well, of course women are more passive aggressive

583
00:37:02,160 --> 00:37:05,080
Speaker 1: because it's a strategy. It's the only thing that we

584
00:37:05,120 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: really have naturally to use because we can't really use

585
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,200
Speaker 1: our fists. We also have to make sure that we

586
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,799
Speaker 1: take care of our babies. Yeah, exactly. It's it's the

587
00:37:14,880 --> 00:37:19,279
Speaker 1: idea that we have to essentially demoralize our competition to

588
00:37:19,400 --> 00:37:21,719
Speaker 1: take our sexual rivals out of the picture, but we

589
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,440
Speaker 1: can't go around punching people in the stomach or in

590
00:37:25,480 --> 00:37:32,040
Speaker 1: the face. Um. And it's also the idea that throughout history,

591
00:37:32,239 --> 00:37:36,440
Speaker 1: you know, obviously our role and childbearing is critical to

592
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:40,240
Speaker 1: say the least. Um. And so you know, our cave

593
00:37:40,239 --> 00:37:44,160
Speaker 1: women ancestors couldn't exactly risk a physical conflict that could

594
00:37:44,239 --> 00:37:48,959
Speaker 1: hurt us. So instead, we in our loincloths U turned

595
00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: to shunning fellow cave women. But that in and of

596
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:56,440
Speaker 1: itself is almost as bad, if not worse, as fighting,

597
00:37:56,520 --> 00:37:59,400
Speaker 1: because if you don't have your network of fellow cave

598
00:37:59,440 --> 00:38:02,719
Speaker 1: mommies to help you raise your cave babies, then you

599
00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:06,040
Speaker 1: could potentially die or your baby could suffer. I also,

600
00:38:06,080 --> 00:38:09,640
Speaker 1: at this point, I'm imagining a cave woman making snarky jokes,

601
00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,440
Speaker 1: snarky passive aggressive jokes, and it is kind of funny. Um.

602
00:38:13,480 --> 00:38:16,239
Speaker 1: But it jumped out to me though. In one of

603
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:22,080
Speaker 1: the papers putting this putting forth this theory by Tracy Vincourt,

604
00:38:22,080 --> 00:38:25,840
Speaker 1: and it was published in Philosophical Transactions of the Royal

605
00:38:25,920 --> 00:38:30,480
Speaker 1: Society B in two thousand thirteen, she wrote, quote, human

606
00:38:30,520 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: females have a particular proclivity for using indirect aggression. She

607
00:38:35,840 --> 00:38:39,560
Speaker 1: just lays it out there, basically saying, like, ladies, this

608
00:38:39,640 --> 00:38:42,320
Speaker 1: is it. We are. We're at the passive aggressive ones

609
00:38:42,920 --> 00:38:48,640
Speaker 1: because of our intra sexual competition and we also this

610
00:38:48,719 --> 00:38:50,760
Speaker 1: is a study too that came up in our slut

611
00:38:50,760 --> 00:38:54,520
Speaker 1: Shaming podcast as well as our Shine Theory podcast. All

612
00:38:54,560 --> 00:38:57,360
Speaker 1: these things are sort of interacting in a or intersecting,

613
00:38:57,400 --> 00:39:00,800
Speaker 1: I should say, in a really interesting kind of way,

614
00:39:00,880 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 1: because I mean, it really is a slippery slope to

615
00:39:04,000 --> 00:39:08,640
Speaker 1: sexual policing and sluch shaming. Yeah, exactly. But I'm going

616
00:39:08,680 --> 00:39:10,360
Speaker 1: to go ahead and say that I think that is

617
00:39:10,400 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 1: a bunch of junk because passive aggressive behavior, you know,

618
00:39:18,040 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 1: on its own, is easily uprooted, It is easily combated,

619
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,680
Speaker 1: and don't worry, we'll arm you with some tactics to

620
00:39:24,800 --> 00:39:27,080
Speaker 1: uproot it. But I mean, I think if you look

621
00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:30,080
Speaker 1: at the way that we're socialized, that has so much

622
00:39:30,120 --> 00:39:34,360
Speaker 1: to do you know, either man or a woman, male, female, whatever, um,

623
00:39:35,040 --> 00:39:36,920
Speaker 1: the way that you're socialized has so much to do

624
00:39:37,000 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 1: with the way that you express anger. And if you

625
00:39:39,160 --> 00:39:42,040
Speaker 1: are someone male or female, young or old who has

626
00:39:42,120 --> 00:39:45,200
Speaker 1: been told that expressing anger or conflict in a certain

627
00:39:45,200 --> 00:39:47,680
Speaker 1: way is bad, you're not going to do it that way.

628
00:39:47,719 --> 00:39:51,319
Speaker 1: You're going to seek that more indirect route. And so

629
00:39:51,560 --> 00:39:54,319
Speaker 1: I have to disagree with the evo bio. Yeah, I

630
00:39:54,360 --> 00:39:56,920
Speaker 1: always want to take evo bio and evo psych with

631
00:39:57,000 --> 00:40:01,440
Speaker 1: a grain of salt, just because it doesn't seem like

632
00:40:01,520 --> 00:40:04,120
Speaker 1: a lot of those theories can and I don't think.

633
00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:06,719
Speaker 1: I think in the evolutionary biologists listening would be cringing sink.

634
00:40:06,800 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 1: That's not the point to apply it like to our

635
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:12,840
Speaker 1: day to day lives today. But if we move into

636
00:40:13,640 --> 00:40:17,400
Speaker 1: the working world, for instance today in our twenty one

637
00:40:17,400 --> 00:40:23,200
Speaker 1: century environments, out of the caves and into the corporate landscape,

638
00:40:23,560 --> 00:40:26,480
Speaker 1: research has found that men are just as likely to

639
00:40:26,719 --> 00:40:30,239
Speaker 1: use indirect aggression. Yeah, and this is a point that

640
00:40:30,480 --> 00:40:36,040
Speaker 1: was mentioned in that evolutionary biology theory paper that Kristen

641
00:40:36,160 --> 00:40:40,280
Speaker 1: was talking about. Uh, and that echoes thesis by University

642
00:40:40,280 --> 00:40:43,080
Speaker 1: of South Florida student basically that men and women are

643
00:40:43,120 --> 00:40:46,160
Speaker 1: just as likely to use passive aggression rather than active,

644
00:40:46,360 --> 00:40:51,520
Speaker 1: especially in the workplace. Um They found that workers and

645
00:40:51,600 --> 00:40:55,280
Speaker 1: employers reports of the workers aggression on the job didn't

646
00:40:55,440 --> 00:41:00,560
Speaker 1: match up compared to supervisor's reports. They say, female employees

647
00:41:00,640 --> 00:41:04,560
Speaker 1: self reports tended to be higher in all eight of

648
00:41:04,600 --> 00:41:07,200
Speaker 1: the types of aggression in the workplace that were measured,

649
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:12,719
Speaker 1: whereas male employees self reports were only higher in passive

650
00:41:12,760 --> 00:41:17,919
Speaker 1: workplace aggression than their supervisors reports. Male supervisors, on one hand,

651
00:41:17,920 --> 00:41:21,720
Speaker 1: were found to report more of their subordinates verbal, direct, active,

652
00:41:21,719 --> 00:41:26,800
Speaker 1: and interpersonal workplace aggression than female supervisors and male employees

653
00:41:26,840 --> 00:41:30,120
Speaker 1: were reported by their immediate supervisors to engage in more

654
00:41:30,160 --> 00:41:36,400
Speaker 1: active workplace aggression. So I'm just wondering if maybe that women,

655
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: we think that we're being aggressive by being passive aggressive,

656
00:41:40,800 --> 00:41:43,960
Speaker 1: and so we just assume that we're higher and outrageously

657
00:41:44,040 --> 00:41:46,520
Speaker 1: so in all of these different types of aggression. But

658
00:41:46,560 --> 00:41:49,520
Speaker 1: in actuality, it's either not being picked up on by

659
00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:52,760
Speaker 1: the supervisors because it is so under the radar, or

660
00:41:53,200 --> 00:41:56,320
Speaker 1: because passive aggressive behavior is so hard to pin down

661
00:41:56,360 --> 00:41:59,439
Speaker 1: and say like, oh, well, you know, Jennifer did this

662
00:41:59,440 --> 00:42:01,600
Speaker 1: this and then us it's it's hard to report and

663
00:42:01,640 --> 00:42:04,799
Speaker 1: so it just doesn't get reported. It seems like at

664
00:42:04,800 --> 00:42:08,839
Speaker 1: this point the research on passive aggressive behavior, like looking

665
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:11,040
Speaker 1: at it in men versus women, and how we interpret

666
00:42:11,120 --> 00:42:14,319
Speaker 1: it's still rather muddy, because how we perceive our own

667
00:42:14,360 --> 00:42:18,239
Speaker 1: behavior is different from how other people perceive our behavior

668
00:42:18,680 --> 00:42:23,040
Speaker 1: is been influenced by gender, is been influenced by nature.

669
00:42:25,280 --> 00:42:29,600
Speaker 1: It's complicated, Caroline, It's a little bit complicated. But the

670
00:42:29,719 --> 00:42:32,720
Speaker 1: good news with all of this is is that the

671
00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:36,799
Speaker 1: tools for recognizing and dealing with passive aggressive behavior, both

672
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 1: in others and in yourself. It's a lot more straightforward,

673
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:43,319
Speaker 1: wouldn't you say? Yeah, it is, And I think you know,

674
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:45,960
Speaker 1: I have already started practicing a lot of these things

675
00:42:46,000 --> 00:42:48,640
Speaker 1: in my own life. And and a big one is

676
00:42:48,680 --> 00:42:51,480
Speaker 1: to just whether you are the aggressive or the passive

677
00:42:51,480 --> 00:42:54,160
Speaker 1: aggressor or the person who is on the receiving end,

678
00:42:54,680 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: A big thing is to just identify the behavior to

679
00:42:57,040 --> 00:43:01,720
Speaker 1: nail it down. And so if if you are the

680
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:06,799
Speaker 1: victim of a passive aggressive set of behaviors, you need to,

681
00:43:06,920 --> 00:43:09,759
Speaker 1: like we said, identify the behavior and look for the

682
00:43:09,800 --> 00:43:14,080
Speaker 1: person's avoidance of conflict at all costs, uh, feeling like

683
00:43:14,120 --> 00:43:17,160
Speaker 1: you're being put into never win scenarios like you're always

684
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 1: wrong and she's always the victim. Uh, constantly having to

685
00:43:20,920 --> 00:43:23,720
Speaker 1: placate the person by telling him what he wants to hear,

686
00:43:24,239 --> 00:43:27,600
Speaker 1: or being subjected to endless strings of complaints that she's

687
00:43:27,640 --> 00:43:31,840
Speaker 1: just misunderstood. And once you kind of identify that the

688
00:43:31,880 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: person you're talking to is using passive aggressive behavior, it's

689
00:43:36,480 --> 00:43:39,239
Speaker 1: really time to rethink your own Have you contributed to

690
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:44,160
Speaker 1: the conflict? Have your actions escalated the confrontation? But okay,

691
00:43:44,160 --> 00:43:47,000
Speaker 1: so once you've gotten through that, you really should silence

692
00:43:47,040 --> 00:43:49,319
Speaker 1: that voice in your head that's telling you that you

693
00:43:49,400 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: are responsible for the passive aggressive person's words or actions,

694
00:43:53,120 --> 00:43:57,840
Speaker 1: because hello, you can't change people. So don't let yourself

695
00:43:58,239 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 1: be manipulated and the process of that, it's important to

696
00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:07,520
Speaker 1: stay calm. Don't respond with your own passive aggression because

697
00:44:07,600 --> 00:44:10,959
Speaker 1: oh my goodness, two passive aggressive people in a fight.

698
00:44:11,040 --> 00:44:14,479
Speaker 1: It's that was maddening. That was my entire life living

699
00:44:14,480 --> 00:44:19,480
Speaker 1: with dude roommate. Love him however, however, um and also

700
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 1: don't attack the person because that's only going to sort

701
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:26,839
Speaker 1: of let the other person win in a way, because

702
00:44:26,880 --> 00:44:29,480
Speaker 1: you're going to come off as that dreaded authority figure.

703
00:44:29,960 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: So you disarm the passive aggression with direct honesty and

704
00:44:35,160 --> 00:44:38,960
Speaker 1: focus on the real issue and recognize that it is

705
00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:44,240
Speaker 1: hostility and a type of power struggle. And so instead

706
00:44:44,239 --> 00:44:46,239
Speaker 1: of freaking out that you're in a power struggle, just

707
00:44:46,280 --> 00:44:48,960
Speaker 1: set limits and boundaries and follow through. It is a

708
00:44:49,000 --> 00:44:52,520
Speaker 1: little bit it sounds like of taking a higher road,

709
00:44:52,920 --> 00:44:56,839
Speaker 1: stepping up owning your own you know, owning your own actions.

710
00:44:56,920 --> 00:45:00,359
Speaker 1: You only have control over yourself and do wing as

711
00:45:00,440 --> 00:45:03,400
Speaker 1: much as you can do to sort of guide the

712
00:45:03,400 --> 00:45:06,960
Speaker 1: other person through that. Yes, so, for instance, when I

713
00:45:07,000 --> 00:45:08,960
Speaker 1: was researching for this episode and I was talking to

714
00:45:09,000 --> 00:45:11,560
Speaker 1: my boyfriend about it and how I recognized a whole

715
00:45:11,600 --> 00:45:14,800
Speaker 1: lot of this passive aggressive behavior and myself, Um, we

716
00:45:14,920 --> 00:45:17,360
Speaker 1: talked a lot about it, and we've taken to sort

717
00:45:17,400 --> 00:45:21,520
Speaker 1: of not checking in. That sounds too like clinical and regimented.

718
00:45:21,600 --> 00:45:24,160
Speaker 1: But you know, if I seem off for whatever, for

719
00:45:24,200 --> 00:45:27,040
Speaker 1: whatever reason, he might check in. Um. But instead of

720
00:45:27,080 --> 00:45:29,600
Speaker 1: fretting the whole afternoon, if I'm mad at him or

721
00:45:29,640 --> 00:45:34,040
Speaker 1: whatever or uncomfortable with something, I've asked him to please

722
00:45:34,080 --> 00:45:35,879
Speaker 1: take me at my word. I'm going to work hard

723
00:45:35,920 --> 00:45:38,960
Speaker 1: to be direct. And so if you think that something's wrong, sure,

724
00:45:39,000 --> 00:45:41,400
Speaker 1: asked me about it, um. But if I say no,

725
00:45:41,600 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 1: nothing's wrong, um, you know, take me at my word.

726
00:45:45,239 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 1: We've we've got to kind of hold each other to

727
00:45:47,040 --> 00:45:50,600
Speaker 1: that directness. Well, and that leads us to the issue of, well,

728
00:45:50,640 --> 00:45:53,960
Speaker 1: how do you deal with your own passive aggressive behavior.

729
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:59,080
Speaker 1: You're establishing new patterns for yourself challenging yourself to be direct.

730
00:45:59,239 --> 00:46:02,040
Speaker 1: Is that when you stay you're fine, he can trust

731
00:46:02,120 --> 00:46:03,960
Speaker 1: you that you are fine, and you kind of have

732
00:46:04,040 --> 00:46:07,040
Speaker 1: to own up to that on the other side of

733
00:46:07,040 --> 00:46:11,040
Speaker 1: that trust relationship as well. Now, There was one study though,

734
00:46:11,200 --> 00:46:14,399
Speaker 1: real quickly that I was looking at, highlighting how there

735
00:46:14,480 --> 00:46:20,239
Speaker 1: has been scant research on effective psychotherapy for passive aggression.

736
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,319
Speaker 1: Um there is cognitive behavioral therapy which is commonly used,

737
00:46:24,360 --> 00:46:26,319
Speaker 1: which is just the general stuff of learning how to

738
00:46:26,360 --> 00:46:30,000
Speaker 1: monitor your thoughts and recognizing when you're angry, challenging and

739
00:46:30,120 --> 00:46:34,680
Speaker 1: examined assumptions about confrontation, identifying when your actions are disconnected

740
00:46:34,719 --> 00:46:38,319
Speaker 1: from how you actually feel. In other words, just kind

741
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: of being honest with yourself and staying in touch with

742
00:46:41,200 --> 00:46:45,080
Speaker 1: what is really going on instead of falling back on

743
00:46:45,800 --> 00:46:49,760
Speaker 1: the sort of the crutch that passive aggression can become. Yeah,

744
00:46:49,800 --> 00:46:54,640
Speaker 1: and just sort of that drive to avoid drama, because

745
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:57,239
Speaker 1: when somebody's passive aggressive in a relationship and the other

746
00:46:57,280 --> 00:46:59,800
Speaker 1: person doesn't know what going on, that just automatically stirs

747
00:46:59,880 --> 00:47:02,120
Speaker 1: up a lot of drama. It's so much better to

748
00:47:02,320 --> 00:47:06,040
Speaker 1: just be direct and if you're upset, just express why

749
00:47:06,080 --> 00:47:10,120
Speaker 1: you're upset, and and recognize that passive aggressive behavior is

750
00:47:10,160 --> 00:47:12,880
Speaker 1: a form of self sabotage, because when all you're doing

751
00:47:13,200 --> 00:47:16,280
Speaker 1: is blaming other people for your own failures or shortcomings,

752
00:47:16,600 --> 00:47:20,000
Speaker 1: you don't get the chance to figure out for yourself.

753
00:47:20,040 --> 00:47:24,400
Speaker 1: What you actually want and except that anger isn't bad

754
00:47:24,520 --> 00:47:27,160
Speaker 1: and confront your fear of conflict. This has been a

755
00:47:27,200 --> 00:47:29,560
Speaker 1: big thing for me in terms of, like, well, how

756
00:47:29,560 --> 00:47:32,880
Speaker 1: do I process and express my anger because I don't

757
00:47:32,880 --> 00:47:36,120
Speaker 1: want to freak anybody out. But at the same time,

758
00:47:37,000 --> 00:47:39,279
Speaker 1: I mean, there are certain theories too about how like

759
00:47:39,360 --> 00:47:42,839
Speaker 1: and you can use anger to your benefit, And this

760
00:47:42,960 --> 00:47:46,280
Speaker 1: is one of those examples because directly and calmly stating

761
00:47:46,360 --> 00:47:50,359
Speaker 1: why you're upset is okay and far more productive than

762
00:47:50,360 --> 00:47:52,839
Speaker 1: trying to mask it and skirt around it and sort

763
00:47:52,840 --> 00:47:56,440
Speaker 1: of funnel your anger into someone else so that they

764
00:47:56,480 --> 00:47:59,120
Speaker 1: can get angry so that you can then be in

765
00:47:59,640 --> 00:48:04,040
Speaker 1: the defensive position. Right. I know it's so twisted, but

766
00:48:04,360 --> 00:48:07,640
Speaker 1: speaking of twisted, part of your therapy or part of

767
00:48:07,680 --> 00:48:11,759
Speaker 1: your own self discovery might just be revisiting those childhood

768
00:48:11,840 --> 00:48:16,160
Speaker 1: scenarios and realizing that your relationship with your parents or

769
00:48:16,239 --> 00:48:20,359
Speaker 1: their relationship with each other does not have to be

770
00:48:20,440 --> 00:48:23,120
Speaker 1: the model for all of your relationships, whether that's with

771
00:48:23,200 --> 00:48:26,760
Speaker 1: a partner or an authority figure or a friend or whomever.

772
00:48:27,200 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 1: I mean, I my parents definitely. I mean, if you're

773
00:48:30,520 --> 00:48:33,040
Speaker 1: going to talk about somebody being dominant and somebody being

774
00:48:33,080 --> 00:48:35,520
Speaker 1: submissive and the other person being passive aggressive and the

775
00:48:35,520 --> 00:48:38,160
Speaker 1: other person being direct. I mean, they definitely trade off.

776
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:41,920
Speaker 1: They're like pros at trading off. One person being passive

777
00:48:41,920 --> 00:48:45,080
Speaker 1: aggressive in response to the other person's like domineering behavior

778
00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,200
Speaker 1: in one arena and then it switches in another arena. Um.

779
00:48:49,239 --> 00:48:52,800
Speaker 1: But ah, it's so refreshing to just repeat to yourself

780
00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:55,160
Speaker 1: that you don't have to be your parents and that

781
00:48:55,280 --> 00:48:58,280
Speaker 1: you can kind of dig down into your own psyche,

782
00:48:58,680 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 1: whether that's just by yourself again or just you know,

783
00:49:00,800 --> 00:49:04,800
Speaker 1: with a therapist and uncover the roots of this behavior

784
00:49:04,960 --> 00:49:08,520
Speaker 1: and set your own new healthy patterns. And maybe for

785
00:49:08,600 --> 00:49:14,000
Speaker 1: women listening to reminding ourselves that a stereotype is a stereotype,

786
00:49:14,040 --> 00:49:17,560
Speaker 1: we don't this doesn't have to be our weapon of choice.

787
00:49:17,840 --> 00:49:20,760
Speaker 1: And for men listening who have women in their lives

788
00:49:21,560 --> 00:49:25,320
Speaker 1: not you know, remembering that keeping that in mind as well,

789
00:49:25,760 --> 00:49:29,520
Speaker 1: in order to recognize their own passive aggressive behavior. Because

790
00:49:29,560 --> 00:49:32,160
Speaker 1: I know some fellas whom I hold very dear to

791
00:49:32,200 --> 00:49:35,279
Speaker 1: my hearts, and I see them being passive aggressive as

792
00:49:35,320 --> 00:49:38,759
Speaker 1: much as I can be passive aggressive. So what do

793
00:49:38,800 --> 00:49:41,040
Speaker 1: you think, though, Caroline, to wrap it up, what do

794
00:49:41,080 --> 00:49:43,840
Speaker 1: you think about that ultimate question though, of our women

795
00:49:44,000 --> 00:49:49,400
Speaker 1: more passive aggressive or is the stereotype simply a product

796
00:49:49,560 --> 00:49:53,719
Speaker 1: of our gendered interpretation of passive aggressive behavior. I think

797
00:49:53,719 --> 00:49:56,480
Speaker 1: it has way more to do with the gendered interpretation

798
00:49:56,960 --> 00:50:01,040
Speaker 1: of of anger and expressing it and living through it.

799
00:50:01,120 --> 00:50:03,560
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that, you know, it really goes

800
00:50:03,600 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: back to the way that we are socialist, in the

801
00:50:05,640 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: way that we've been socialist false centuries to to act

802
00:50:09,600 --> 00:50:12,680
Speaker 1: a certain way. I mean, it wasn't until the late

803
00:50:13,239 --> 00:50:16,440
Speaker 1: twentieth century that people started going, oh, maybe women do

804
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:20,680
Speaker 1: get angry. Well, a light bulb just went off of

805
00:50:20,719 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: my head, Caroline. So maybe it's not that women are

806
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:29,160
Speaker 1: more passive aggressive, but that it is more socially acceptable,

807
00:50:29,160 --> 00:50:30,920
Speaker 1: whether we like it or not, for women to be

808
00:50:30,960 --> 00:50:35,520
Speaker 1: passive aggressive versus being outright angry, because we would expect

809
00:50:35,560 --> 00:50:38,239
Speaker 1: that more of guys because from the time that they

810
00:50:38,280 --> 00:50:40,440
Speaker 1: are little boys, a lot of times are socialized to

811
00:50:41,080 --> 00:50:44,520
Speaker 1: solve conflicts directly and sometimes with their fists and with

812
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:48,960
Speaker 1: their anger, and girls are told to be prim So

813
00:50:49,000 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: I think, well, yeah, and I think whoever you are male, female, masculine, feminine,

814
00:50:54,640 --> 00:50:58,440
Speaker 1: opting to be honest and direct, uh while being calm

815
00:50:59,239 --> 00:51:02,200
Speaker 1: I think is the better answer when when it comes

816
00:51:02,200 --> 00:51:07,000
Speaker 1: to anger and upset feelings and drama and avoiding drama. Um,

817
00:51:07,040 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: I think being direct can only benefit relationships. And now

818
00:51:11,239 --> 00:51:14,120
Speaker 1: we have a direct request for you, dear listeners. We

819
00:51:14,160 --> 00:51:16,879
Speaker 1: want to hear from you about passive aggression. Did this

820
00:51:17,000 --> 00:51:20,359
Speaker 1: ring as many bells for you as it did for

821
00:51:20,480 --> 00:51:24,839
Speaker 1: Caroline and me, whether it's in your own life or

822
00:51:24,880 --> 00:51:28,160
Speaker 1: in a relationship, or in someone who is in your

823
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:33,640
Speaker 1: life a boss, a boyfriend, a mother, a father. Let

824
00:51:33,719 --> 00:51:36,160
Speaker 1: us know mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com

825
00:51:36,320 --> 00:51:38,799
Speaker 1: is our email address. You can also tweet us at

826
00:51:38,840 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 1: mom Stuff podcast or messages on Facebook. And we've got

827
00:51:41,239 --> 00:51:50,399
Speaker 1: a couple of messages to share with you all right now, Well,

828
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:52,880
Speaker 1: I have a letter here from Sadika in response to

829
00:51:53,040 --> 00:51:55,960
Speaker 1: our King Week episodes. This one is on b D

830
00:51:56,080 --> 00:51:59,040
Speaker 1: s M. Specifically, she says, Hi, ladies, I wanted to

831
00:51:59,080 --> 00:52:01,960
Speaker 1: say thanks for all of the awesome content you create

832
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,040
Speaker 1: as a lady of color within the b D s

833
00:52:04,120 --> 00:52:06,719
Speaker 1: M community, it felt really nice to have someone not

834
00:52:06,800 --> 00:52:11,320
Speaker 1: only acknowledge women of colors involvement, but also race play.

835
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,000
Speaker 1: It also felt nice to hear about other feminists who

836
00:52:14,000 --> 00:52:17,440
Speaker 1: are part of the kink community. After I fully accepted

837
00:52:17,480 --> 00:52:20,040
Speaker 1: that I'm a submissive, I felt an ache leave me

838
00:52:20,120 --> 00:52:22,759
Speaker 1: and allowed me to be better as a person. I

839
00:52:22,800 --> 00:52:26,239
Speaker 1: became more open minded and empathetic. Once again, thank you

840
00:52:26,280 --> 00:52:29,160
Speaker 1: for your work, y'all rock and so do you. Thanks

841
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,120
Speaker 1: for your letter. Well, I have a letter here from

842
00:52:32,160 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 1: Sunny about our Kink Week episode on The Professional Dominatrix,

843
00:52:37,320 --> 00:52:40,000
Speaker 1: and she writes, I really enjoyed Kink Week on stuff

844
00:52:40,000 --> 00:52:43,200
Speaker 1: Mom never told you. I think it's really easy, particularly

845
00:52:43,280 --> 00:52:46,040
Speaker 1: for vanilla people who aren't involved in the lifestyle and world,

846
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,120
Speaker 1: to turn kink into something to joke about or awkwardly

847
00:52:49,160 --> 00:52:52,799
Speaker 1: tipto around, or even outright judge. I really appreciate the

848
00:52:52,840 --> 00:52:55,680
Speaker 1: effort to take the subject seriously and to keep an

849
00:52:55,680 --> 00:52:58,520
Speaker 1: open mind about it all. As for the question you

850
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:01,640
Speaker 1: posed about how people in the lifestyle feel about celebrities

851
00:53:01,680 --> 00:53:06,600
Speaker 1: and media co opting and reappropriating our subculture personally strong

852
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,960
Speaker 1: emphasis on personally. I think that when it's done to

853
00:53:10,120 --> 00:53:15,000
Speaker 1: honestly celebrate sexuality and encourage creativity and exploration, rather than

854
00:53:15,080 --> 00:53:19,839
Speaker 1: purely for sensationalism and titilation, I'm fine with it. I'm

855
00:53:19,880 --> 00:53:24,520
Speaker 1: of course ecstatic when it's also done well. I'm really

856
00:53:24,680 --> 00:53:28,240
Speaker 1: only truly offended when the lifestyle is treated as complete fiction,

857
00:53:28,440 --> 00:53:31,480
Speaker 1: where literally none of our culture or rules or practices

858
00:53:31,520 --> 00:53:34,200
Speaker 1: are respected, and when it is treated like a joke.

859
00:53:34,600 --> 00:53:37,319
Speaker 1: No one must be someone's punchline or caricature, where you're

860
00:53:37,320 --> 00:53:40,640
Speaker 1: treated as more of a stereotype than a person. Too often,

861
00:53:40,760 --> 00:53:43,400
Speaker 1: when we're depicted in the media, kinsters are portrayed as

862
00:53:43,400 --> 00:53:46,440
Speaker 1: either monsters or victims were seen as less than human.

863
00:53:46,760 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 1: Where the crazy X who was psycho nuts but a

864
00:53:49,400 --> 00:53:52,280
Speaker 1: wild ride and one hell of a one up sex story.

865
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:55,840
Speaker 1: Or where the damaged victim who gets raped or abused

866
00:53:55,840 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: because we wandered too far from the normative path and

867
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:01,319
Speaker 1: into deviant stuff we wouldn't have and needs to be

868
00:54:01,360 --> 00:54:05,120
Speaker 1: saved or cured. Or where the dead body left humiliated

869
00:54:05,120 --> 00:54:08,040
Speaker 1: and strung up like a cross between bad gallows humor

870
00:54:08,360 --> 00:54:10,759
Speaker 1: and left over holiday decorations in the middle of a

871
00:54:10,800 --> 00:54:14,280
Speaker 1: crime scene. Again, we'd never allow artists to get away

872
00:54:14,280 --> 00:54:16,879
Speaker 1: with that one portraying other types of people what makes

873
00:54:16,920 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: it okay when they do it to us? But when

874
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,480
Speaker 1: the portrayal is done honestly, with respect and research, it

875
00:54:22,480 --> 00:54:25,840
Speaker 1: feels validating. Even though it's not neither. Depicting from a

876
00:54:25,880 --> 00:54:28,720
Speaker 1: TV screen or movie screen or computer screen far far away.

877
00:54:29,080 --> 00:54:32,720
Speaker 1: It feels like being seen and having talked to my friends.

878
00:54:32,760 --> 00:54:35,000
Speaker 1: I know. The more the kingsters are honestly portrayed in

879
00:54:35,000 --> 00:54:37,000
Speaker 1: the media, the easier it is for vanilla people to

880
00:54:37,080 --> 00:54:40,440
Speaker 1: understand that their preconceived notions may not be the whole truth.

881
00:54:40,880 --> 00:54:42,760
Speaker 1: The more visible we get to be in the media

882
00:54:42,800 --> 00:54:45,319
Speaker 1: as who we really are rather than what too many

883
00:54:45,360 --> 00:54:48,400
Speaker 1: people think we are or want us to be. The

884
00:54:48,520 --> 00:54:51,600
Speaker 1: better anyway, thank you for the podcast. As always, you

885
00:54:51,680 --> 00:54:56,000
Speaker 1: treated your subjects with respect and produce wonderful results. Well,

886
00:54:56,000 --> 00:54:59,800
Speaker 1: thank you for the wonderful letter, Stunny, and keep the letters.

887
00:54:59,840 --> 00:55:02,200
Speaker 1: Come Mom. Stuff at how stuff works dot com is

888
00:55:02,239 --> 00:55:04,440
Speaker 1: our email address and for links all of our social

889
00:55:04,480 --> 00:55:08,520
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts,

890
00:55:08,560 --> 00:55:10,920
Speaker 1: including this one with links to all of the research

891
00:55:11,040 --> 00:55:13,719
Speaker 1: on passive aggressive behavior so you can learn more. Like

892
00:55:13,800 --> 00:55:16,480
Speaker 1: Caroline and me, head on over to stuff Mom Never

893
00:55:16,560 --> 00:55:24,080
Speaker 1: Told You dot com for more on this and thousands

894
00:55:24,080 --> 00:55:34,040
Speaker 1: of other topics. Is it how stuff Works dot com