WEBVTT - Former US Ambassador to China Nicholas Burns Talks Push for Greenland

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<v Speaker 1>Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news.

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<v Speaker 2>Let's get more on President Trump's push for Greenland joining

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<v Speaker 2>US now is Nicholas Burns, a former US ambassador to NATO.

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<v Speaker 2>He's also a former US Ambassador to China and a

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<v Speaker 2>professor at the Harvard Kennedy School. And Nicholas, there is

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<v Speaker 2>no one else we'd want to talk with you about

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<v Speaker 2>this subject because of your vast amount of experience with NATO.

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<v Speaker 2>Specifically after this happened, after the latest pronouncements from the President,

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<v Speaker 2>the Danish Prime Minister said an attack on Greenland would

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<v Speaker 2>spell the end of the NATO alliance. Just how undertention

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<v Speaker 2>and how at risk is this alliance at the moment.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, certainly an attack by the United States against Denmark

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<v Speaker 3>over Greenland would end NATO as we know it. It's

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<v Speaker 3>been unthinkable since NATO was created in nineteen forty nine

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<v Speaker 3>that the United States or any other NATO country would

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<v Speaker 3>attack a fellow member. We've been busy trying to of

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<v Speaker 3>course contain Soviet and now President Putin's power in Europe.

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<v Speaker 3>That's the focal point of NATO. And to get back

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<v Speaker 3>to what was said, Secretary Rubio said when he was

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<v Speaker 3>asked yesterday in the context of Greenland, is force on

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<v Speaker 3>the table? And he said, well, he didn't point to force,

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<v Speaker 3>but he said the President reserves the right to use

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<v Speaker 3>force if necessary. Caroline Levitt, the president spokesperson, said the

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<v Speaker 3>follow the evening before force was on the table on Greenland. Now,

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<v Speaker 3>I actually agree with your correspondent. I think the probability

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<v Speaker 3>of an American attack on Greenland is not high. But

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<v Speaker 3>the fact that the President and the Secretary of State

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<v Speaker 3>and the spokesperson have all said it is on the table,

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<v Speaker 3>you can imagine how that's gone down in Denmark and

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<v Speaker 3>in Europe, and so I think the critical point is this,

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<v Speaker 3>the United States does not need to invade Greenland or

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<v Speaker 3>to even seek to purchase Greenland from Denmark to get

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<v Speaker 3>what President Trump has said he wants to have. The

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<v Speaker 3>Danish Prime Minister has said throughout this year that she

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<v Speaker 3>welcomes a further, bigger American military presence on Greenland. They

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<v Speaker 3>welcome the Danes American private investment or government investment in

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<v Speaker 3>rare earth mining and mining for other critical materials, so

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<v Speaker 3>we can get what we want without these really colossal threats,

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<v Speaker 3>colossally ignorant threats against the NATO ally. We just have

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<v Speaker 3>to treat that ally respectfully, and I think in that

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<v Speaker 3>respect it is positive that Secretary of Rubio is going

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<v Speaker 3>to meet the Danish Foreign Minister next week in Washington.

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<v Speaker 3>Much better for them to discuss this privately than this

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<v Speaker 3>continued war of words started by the administration.

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<v Speaker 1>In Washington, Professor, we're also hearing and we reported yesterday

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<v Speaker 1>that Danish and greenlandic officials will be meeting with Secretary

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<v Speaker 1>Rubio next week as well. I am wondering, what do

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<v Speaker 1>you think, I mean, with your vast experience in this

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<v Speaker 1>this meeting, is this is this the kind of thing

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<v Speaker 1>that gives comfort to NATO officials, Is that this is

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<v Speaker 1>the kind of thing that gives comfort to the markets,

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<v Speaker 1>or is it potential for more chaos ahead.

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<v Speaker 3>I just can't imagine a decision by the President of

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<v Speaker 3>the United States to invade Greenland and lee, in essence,

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<v Speaker 3>you know, cause an active war against the NATO ally.

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<v Speaker 3>So I do think that's low probability. And you know,

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<v Speaker 3>the thing here is that Greenland is strategically important. If

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<v Speaker 3>you think about Greenland's geographic position vis a vis the

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<v Speaker 3>Russian Federation and where much of the Russian military asss Are,

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<v Speaker 3>which is in the western part in Murmansk and other

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<v Speaker 3>places of the Russian Federation think about China's ambitions as

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<v Speaker 3>they call themselves a near Arctic power. The administration is right,

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<v Speaker 3>as President Biden said as well, that Greenland is very

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<v Speaker 3>important strategically. We're going to be much better positioned to

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<v Speaker 3>get what we want and to build up American millilitary

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<v Speaker 3>power in Greenland if we work through our ally Denmark

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<v Speaker 3>and with the other northern members of the NATO Alliance.

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<v Speaker 3>We are all like minded. We want to contain Russian power.

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<v Speaker 3>We want to keep China out of this hemisphere strategically

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<v Speaker 3>and prevent the Chinese from building up their power. And

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<v Speaker 3>the best way to do that is not to dissolve

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<v Speaker 3>NATO and break NATO apart by an American military invasion

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<v Speaker 3>to go back to Greenland. What with the Danes establish

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<v Speaker 3>a much stronger American military presence.

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<v Speaker 2>What if what the President wants.

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<v Speaker 4>I'm sure that he wants to maintain military dominance over

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<v Speaker 4>certainly China and Russia as well, but what if he

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<v Speaker 4>also wants to mine Greenland's natural resources and so that

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<v Speaker 4>we can keep them for ourselves and that we do

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<v Speaker 4>not have to share them with other NATO members. I mean,

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<v Speaker 4>is that potentially why he wants Greenland so they can

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<v Speaker 4>have the earth there.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the president hasn't been at least in my judgment,

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<v Speaker 3>that's specific. So I don't want to put words in

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<v Speaker 3>his mouth.

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<v Speaker 4>But look, but he does seem to want the oil

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<v Speaker 4>in Venezuela. That seems to be the oil seems to

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<v Speaker 4>be at least partially a driver in Venezuela. And now

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<v Speaker 4>we know, after he has arrested the illegitimate or not

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<v Speaker 4>president of Venezuela, he has now said that they're going

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<v Speaker 4>to give us fifty million barrels of oil.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, the two situations are very different. Maduro was illegitimate.

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<v Speaker 3>Venezuela is not a military ally of the United States.

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<v Speaker 3>Denmark is. Denmark has been with US since the First

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<v Speaker 3>World War, by the way, and the United States said

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<v Speaker 3>during the First World War, and we repeated that when

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<v Speaker 3>NATO was created, we respect Danish sovereignty in Greenland. The

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<v Speaker 3>Danes have been there for more than three hundred years.

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<v Speaker 3>That is not our property. So if anyone in the

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<v Speaker 3>administration is thinking that the real reason for this is

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<v Speaker 3>to mine rare earth and other minerals, and oil and

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<v Speaker 3>gas in Greenland and take it all from ourselves. Well,

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<v Speaker 3>that would be larceny, that would be highway robbery. It's

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<v Speaker 3>unthinkable that the United States would want to live in

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<v Speaker 3>a world where there are no rules and that, in fact,

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<v Speaker 3>we try to exploit the resources of NATO members against

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<v Speaker 3>their will. Now, this is a hypothetical conversation. I'm not

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<v Speaker 3>saying you asked the question. I'm not saying that the

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<v Speaker 3>Trump administration wants to do this. I can't believe that

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<v Speaker 3>many members, if any at all, of the United States

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<v Speaker 3>Senate would support that. So that's hypothetical. What's real. What's

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<v Speaker 3>real is that we used to have seventeen military bases

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<v Speaker 3>in Greenland and now we have one. So if we

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<v Speaker 3>want to have additional military bases, that can happen with

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<v Speaker 3>the assistance of Denmark, and that's that's by far the

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<v Speaker 3>better route for the United States to take.

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<v Speaker 1>Here, Ambassador, to go back to your point on the

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<v Speaker 1>national security part here, right, So part of this is

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<v Speaker 1>the Western Hemisphere national security strategy. The number of people

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<v Speaker 1>we've talked to have discussed this around Greenland and Venezuela

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<v Speaker 1>kind of in some ways being connected. But you did

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<v Speaker 1>mention the high activity within the Arctic Circle, Chinese ships,

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<v Speaker 1>Russian ships. Can you maybe spell out, because there's a

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<v Speaker 1>lot of sensible people who say, oh, this is an overreaction.

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<v Speaker 1>Do you see that as heightened activity to the point

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<v Speaker 1>where the United States does have to start paying attention

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<v Speaker 1>to it in a way that it probably hasn't in

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<v Speaker 1>the previous decades.

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<v Speaker 3>Well, certainly, the Russians are acting and planning that they

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<v Speaker 3>want to be the dominant power in the Arctic, and

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<v Speaker 3>obviously we need to counter that. And President Obama, President

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<v Speaker 3>George W. Bush, President Obama and President Biden, as well

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<v Speaker 3>as President Trump in his first term, all acted on

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<v Speaker 3>that that we're in the Arctic Council. We've been working

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<v Speaker 3>with our Arctic allies now Finland and Sweden and Denmark

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<v Speaker 3>and Canada to try to counteract what the Russians are doing.

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<v Speaker 3>And Chinese are a different case. They're not an Arctic power.

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<v Speaker 3>They used to tell me that we're a near Arctic power.

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<v Speaker 3>I say, well, look at the map, you're not an

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<v Speaker 3>Arctic power. But they believe they are. They're working with

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<v Speaker 3>the Russians, and if you think about the fact that

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<v Speaker 3>there's going to be this northern passage through the Arctic,

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<v Speaker 3>at least in the summer months. That is consequential commercially,

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<v Speaker 3>both for a business but also for energy flows. And

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<v Speaker 3>so we do face a challenge in the Arctic. Greenland

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<v Speaker 3>is strategically important. President Trump is not wrong about that.

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<v Speaker 3>But there's a way to go about this, and that's

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<v Speaker 3>to work through allies. And frankly, I should tell you

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<v Speaker 3>both as ambassador to NATO and also as ambassador to China,

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<v Speaker 3>we are always stronger working with our treaty allies to

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<v Speaker 3>contain Russian and Chinese power than trying to do it

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<v Speaker 3>on our own or in this case, threatening the use

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<v Speaker 3>of military force. It just doesn't make sense for us

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<v Speaker 3>to do that.

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<v Speaker 2>Hey, ambassador, just quickly here what happens with China next.

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<v Speaker 2>They certainly, as you point out, have lost face in

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<v Speaker 2>this whole thing, given their close partnership to Venezuela. We've

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<v Speaker 2>had Peter Sheher from Academy saying that they have an

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<v Speaker 2>army of lawyers that they might deploy. They also have

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<v Speaker 2>the cudgel of rare earth materials. What levers can they

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<v Speaker 2>pull to try to turn this around? In just a

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<v Speaker 2>minute here, professor.

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<v Speaker 3>I think the Chinese have lost faith, certainly because Venezuela

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<v Speaker 3>was in effect a client state in many ways of China,

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<v Speaker 3>and China could do nothing to prevent what the US

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<v Speaker 3>military did last weekend. Second, the Chinese want to continue

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<v Speaker 3>to be the major trade partner of South America, and

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<v Speaker 3>that's a really unfortunate reality for the United States. Twenty

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<v Speaker 3>years ago, America was a leading trade partner, and nearly

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<v Speaker 3>everybody now China is. So I think strategically our aim

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<v Speaker 3>should be much stronger American investment, private investment, and government

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<v Speaker 3>activity in South America, in Central America to counteract what

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<v Speaker 3>I think is a very negative dynamic, and that is

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<v Speaker 3>China's more influential than we are, unfortunately economically. So that's

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<v Speaker 3>the route the President Biden was trying to take, and

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<v Speaker 3>I hope it's the route the President Trump will take.