1 00:00:02,520 --> 00:00:07,040 Speaker 1: Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio news. 2 00:00:07,800 --> 00:00:10,600 Speaker 2: Let's get more on President Trump's push for Greenland joining 3 00:00:10,680 --> 00:00:13,720 Speaker 2: US now is Nicholas Burns, a former US ambassador to NATO. 4 00:00:13,920 --> 00:00:16,160 Speaker 2: He's also a former US Ambassador to China and a 5 00:00:16,200 --> 00:00:19,880 Speaker 2: professor at the Harvard Kennedy School. And Nicholas, there is 6 00:00:19,920 --> 00:00:21,880 Speaker 2: no one else we'd want to talk with you about 7 00:00:21,880 --> 00:00:25,680 Speaker 2: this subject because of your vast amount of experience with NATO. 8 00:00:25,800 --> 00:00:29,960 Speaker 2: Specifically after this happened, after the latest pronouncements from the President, 9 00:00:29,960 --> 00:00:32,960 Speaker 2: the Danish Prime Minister said an attack on Greenland would 10 00:00:32,960 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: spell the end of the NATO alliance. Just how undertention 11 00:00:37,159 --> 00:00:40,520 Speaker 2: and how at risk is this alliance at the moment. 12 00:00:42,040 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 3: Well, certainly an attack by the United States against Denmark 13 00:00:45,880 --> 00:00:49,159 Speaker 3: over Greenland would end NATO as we know it. It's 14 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,880 Speaker 3: been unthinkable since NATO was created in nineteen forty nine 15 00:00:52,920 --> 00:00:55,600 Speaker 3: that the United States or any other NATO country would 16 00:00:55,640 --> 00:00:58,600 Speaker 3: attack a fellow member. We've been busy trying to of 17 00:00:58,640 --> 00:01:02,880 Speaker 3: course contain Soviet and now President Putin's power in Europe. 18 00:01:02,880 --> 00:01:05,640 Speaker 3: That's the focal point of NATO. And to get back 19 00:01:05,680 --> 00:01:08,800 Speaker 3: to what was said, Secretary Rubio said when he was 20 00:01:08,840 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 3: asked yesterday in the context of Greenland, is force on 21 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:14,960 Speaker 3: the table? And he said, well, he didn't point to force, 22 00:01:15,040 --> 00:01:17,400 Speaker 3: but he said the President reserves the right to use 23 00:01:17,440 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 3: force if necessary. Caroline Levitt, the president spokesperson, said the 24 00:01:22,120 --> 00:01:26,480 Speaker 3: follow the evening before force was on the table on Greenland. Now, 25 00:01:26,560 --> 00:01:30,560 Speaker 3: I actually agree with your correspondent. I think the probability 26 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:34,480 Speaker 3: of an American attack on Greenland is not high. But 27 00:01:34,600 --> 00:01:37,280 Speaker 3: the fact that the President and the Secretary of State 28 00:01:37,600 --> 00:01:40,000 Speaker 3: and the spokesperson have all said it is on the table, 29 00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:43,080 Speaker 3: you can imagine how that's gone down in Denmark and 30 00:01:43,120 --> 00:01:45,880 Speaker 3: in Europe, and so I think the critical point is this, 31 00:01:46,600 --> 00:01:50,200 Speaker 3: the United States does not need to invade Greenland or 32 00:01:50,240 --> 00:01:54,240 Speaker 3: to even seek to purchase Greenland from Denmark to get 33 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 3: what President Trump has said he wants to have. The 34 00:01:57,640 --> 00:02:01,640 Speaker 3: Danish Prime Minister has said throughout this year that she 35 00:02:01,920 --> 00:02:07,080 Speaker 3: welcomes a further, bigger American military presence on Greenland. They 36 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:12,280 Speaker 3: welcome the Danes American private investment or government investment in 37 00:02:12,400 --> 00:02:16,320 Speaker 3: rare earth mining and mining for other critical materials, so 38 00:02:16,560 --> 00:02:21,840 Speaker 3: we can get what we want without these really colossal threats, 39 00:02:22,120 --> 00:02:25,440 Speaker 3: colossally ignorant threats against the NATO ally. We just have 40 00:02:25,520 --> 00:02:27,880 Speaker 3: to treat that ally respectfully, and I think in that 41 00:02:28,040 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 3: respect it is positive that Secretary of Rubio is going 42 00:02:31,600 --> 00:02:34,119 Speaker 3: to meet the Danish Foreign Minister next week in Washington. 43 00:02:34,840 --> 00:02:37,480 Speaker 3: Much better for them to discuss this privately than this 44 00:02:37,560 --> 00:02:41,320 Speaker 3: continued war of words started by the administration. 45 00:02:40,760 --> 00:02:45,840 Speaker 1: In Washington, Professor, we're also hearing and we reported yesterday 46 00:02:45,840 --> 00:02:51,119 Speaker 1: that Danish and greenlandic officials will be meeting with Secretary 47 00:02:51,240 --> 00:02:55,280 Speaker 1: Rubio next week as well. I am wondering, what do 48 00:02:55,320 --> 00:02:58,560 Speaker 1: you think, I mean, with your vast experience in this 49 00:02:58,560 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: this meeting, is this is this the kind of thing 50 00:03:01,280 --> 00:03:03,440 Speaker 1: that gives comfort to NATO officials, Is that this is 51 00:03:03,480 --> 00:03:05,280 Speaker 1: the kind of thing that gives comfort to the markets, 52 00:03:05,520 --> 00:03:08,080 Speaker 1: or is it potential for more chaos ahead. 53 00:03:09,520 --> 00:03:12,520 Speaker 3: I just can't imagine a decision by the President of 54 00:03:12,520 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 3: the United States to invade Greenland and lee, in essence, 55 00:03:17,520 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 3: you know, cause an active war against the NATO ally. 56 00:03:19,960 --> 00:03:22,960 Speaker 3: So I do think that's low probability. And you know, 57 00:03:23,000 --> 00:03:27,160 Speaker 3: the thing here is that Greenland is strategically important. If 58 00:03:27,160 --> 00:03:32,840 Speaker 3: you think about Greenland's geographic position vis a vis the 59 00:03:32,919 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 3: Russian Federation and where much of the Russian military asss Are, 60 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:40,040 Speaker 3: which is in the western part in Murmansk and other 61 00:03:40,080 --> 00:03:44,920 Speaker 3: places of the Russian Federation think about China's ambitions as 62 00:03:44,960 --> 00:03:49,160 Speaker 3: they call themselves a near Arctic power. The administration is right, 63 00:03:49,280 --> 00:03:52,800 Speaker 3: as President Biden said as well, that Greenland is very 64 00:03:52,800 --> 00:03:56,920 Speaker 3: important strategically. We're going to be much better positioned to 65 00:03:57,360 --> 00:04:00,360 Speaker 3: get what we want and to build up American millilitary 66 00:04:00,440 --> 00:04:03,520 Speaker 3: power in Greenland if we work through our ally Denmark 67 00:04:03,840 --> 00:04:07,200 Speaker 3: and with the other northern members of the NATO Alliance. 68 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 3: We are all like minded. We want to contain Russian power. 69 00:04:11,040 --> 00:04:14,720 Speaker 3: We want to keep China out of this hemisphere strategically 70 00:04:14,760 --> 00:04:17,719 Speaker 3: and prevent the Chinese from building up their power. And 71 00:04:17,760 --> 00:04:19,640 Speaker 3: the best way to do that is not to dissolve 72 00:04:19,760 --> 00:04:23,760 Speaker 3: NATO and break NATO apart by an American military invasion 73 00:04:24,600 --> 00:04:28,240 Speaker 3: to go back to Greenland. What with the Danes establish 74 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:31,080 Speaker 3: a much stronger American military presence. 75 00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:32,800 Speaker 2: What if what the President wants. 76 00:04:33,920 --> 00:04:37,360 Speaker 4: I'm sure that he wants to maintain military dominance over 77 00:04:37,560 --> 00:04:40,120 Speaker 4: certainly China and Russia as well, but what if he 78 00:04:40,200 --> 00:04:46,440 Speaker 4: also wants to mine Greenland's natural resources and so that 79 00:04:46,480 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 4: we can keep them for ourselves and that we do 80 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,800 Speaker 4: not have to share them with other NATO members. I mean, 81 00:04:51,960 --> 00:04:55,080 Speaker 4: is that potentially why he wants Greenland so they can 82 00:04:55,200 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 4: have the earth there. 83 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:01,200 Speaker 3: Well, the president hasn't been at least in my judgment, 84 00:05:01,279 --> 00:05:03,839 Speaker 3: that's specific. So I don't want to put words in 85 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:04,360 Speaker 3: his mouth. 86 00:05:04,440 --> 00:05:06,520 Speaker 4: But look, but he does seem to want the oil 87 00:05:06,560 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 4: in Venezuela. That seems to be the oil seems to 88 00:05:09,400 --> 00:05:12,600 Speaker 4: be at least partially a driver in Venezuela. And now 89 00:05:12,600 --> 00:05:18,120 Speaker 4: we know, after he has arrested the illegitimate or not 90 00:05:18,520 --> 00:05:21,279 Speaker 4: president of Venezuela, he has now said that they're going 91 00:05:21,360 --> 00:05:23,280 Speaker 4: to give us fifty million barrels of oil. 92 00:05:24,720 --> 00:05:28,280 Speaker 3: Well, the two situations are very different. Maduro was illegitimate. 93 00:05:28,400 --> 00:05:30,960 Speaker 3: Venezuela is not a military ally of the United States. 94 00:05:30,960 --> 00:05:34,120 Speaker 3: Denmark is. Denmark has been with US since the First 95 00:05:34,160 --> 00:05:36,599 Speaker 3: World War, by the way, and the United States said 96 00:05:36,640 --> 00:05:40,040 Speaker 3: during the First World War, and we repeated that when 97 00:05:40,120 --> 00:05:43,760 Speaker 3: NATO was created, we respect Danish sovereignty in Greenland. The 98 00:05:43,839 --> 00:05:45,960 Speaker 3: Danes have been there for more than three hundred years. 99 00:05:46,279 --> 00:05:49,360 Speaker 3: That is not our property. So if anyone in the 100 00:05:49,400 --> 00:05:52,760 Speaker 3: administration is thinking that the real reason for this is 101 00:05:52,800 --> 00:05:55,919 Speaker 3: to mine rare earth and other minerals, and oil and 102 00:05:56,000 --> 00:05:59,560 Speaker 3: gas in Greenland and take it all from ourselves. Well, 103 00:05:59,000 --> 00:06:02,440 Speaker 3: that would be larceny, that would be highway robbery. It's 104 00:06:02,520 --> 00:06:04,839 Speaker 3: unthinkable that the United States would want to live in 105 00:06:04,839 --> 00:06:08,600 Speaker 3: a world where there are no rules and that, in fact, 106 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:12,279 Speaker 3: we try to exploit the resources of NATO members against 107 00:06:12,320 --> 00:06:15,120 Speaker 3: their will. Now, this is a hypothetical conversation. I'm not 108 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:18,279 Speaker 3: saying you asked the question. I'm not saying that the 109 00:06:18,279 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 3: Trump administration wants to do this. I can't believe that 110 00:06:22,279 --> 00:06:25,239 Speaker 3: many members, if any at all, of the United States 111 00:06:25,279 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 3: Senate would support that. So that's hypothetical. What's real. What's 112 00:06:30,279 --> 00:06:33,640 Speaker 3: real is that we used to have seventeen military bases 113 00:06:33,680 --> 00:06:36,719 Speaker 3: in Greenland and now we have one. So if we 114 00:06:36,800 --> 00:06:40,800 Speaker 3: want to have additional military bases, that can happen with 115 00:06:40,960 --> 00:06:43,640 Speaker 3: the assistance of Denmark, and that's that's by far the 116 00:06:43,680 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: better route for the United States to take. 117 00:06:45,279 --> 00:06:47,720 Speaker 1: Here, Ambassador, to go back to your point on the 118 00:06:47,800 --> 00:06:50,359 Speaker 1: national security part here, right, So part of this is 119 00:06:50,400 --> 00:06:53,960 Speaker 1: the Western Hemisphere national security strategy. The number of people 120 00:06:54,000 --> 00:06:56,800 Speaker 1: we've talked to have discussed this around Greenland and Venezuela 121 00:06:56,880 --> 00:06:59,360 Speaker 1: kind of in some ways being connected. But you did 122 00:06:59,400 --> 00:07:04,040 Speaker 1: mention the high activity within the Arctic Circle, Chinese ships, 123 00:07:05,240 --> 00:07:08,120 Speaker 1: Russian ships. Can you maybe spell out, because there's a 124 00:07:08,120 --> 00:07:10,760 Speaker 1: lot of sensible people who say, oh, this is an overreaction. 125 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: Do you see that as heightened activity to the point 126 00:07:15,400 --> 00:07:18,240 Speaker 1: where the United States does have to start paying attention 127 00:07:18,320 --> 00:07:19,920 Speaker 1: to it in a way that it probably hasn't in 128 00:07:19,960 --> 00:07:20,960 Speaker 1: the previous decades. 129 00:07:22,160 --> 00:07:25,680 Speaker 3: Well, certainly, the Russians are acting and planning that they 130 00:07:25,720 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 3: want to be the dominant power in the Arctic, and 131 00:07:29,560 --> 00:07:33,160 Speaker 3: obviously we need to counter that. And President Obama, President 132 00:07:33,160 --> 00:07:36,120 Speaker 3: George W. Bush, President Obama and President Biden, as well 133 00:07:36,160 --> 00:07:38,480 Speaker 3: as President Trump in his first term, all acted on 134 00:07:38,520 --> 00:07:41,560 Speaker 3: that that we're in the Arctic Council. We've been working 135 00:07:41,600 --> 00:07:46,680 Speaker 3: with our Arctic allies now Finland and Sweden and Denmark 136 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 3: and Canada to try to counteract what the Russians are doing. 137 00:07:49,960 --> 00:07:52,880 Speaker 3: And Chinese are a different case. They're not an Arctic power. 138 00:07:53,400 --> 00:07:56,440 Speaker 3: They used to tell me that we're a near Arctic power. 139 00:07:56,480 --> 00:07:58,080 Speaker 3: I say, well, look at the map, you're not an 140 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 3: Arctic power. But they believe they are. They're working with 141 00:08:01,240 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 3: the Russians, and if you think about the fact that 142 00:08:03,680 --> 00:08:07,000 Speaker 3: there's going to be this northern passage through the Arctic, 143 00:08:07,360 --> 00:08:11,360 Speaker 3: at least in the summer months. That is consequential commercially, 144 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:14,920 Speaker 3: both for a business but also for energy flows. And 145 00:08:14,960 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 3: so we do face a challenge in the Arctic. Greenland 146 00:08:18,480 --> 00:08:21,600 Speaker 3: is strategically important. President Trump is not wrong about that. 147 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:24,320 Speaker 3: But there's a way to go about this, and that's 148 00:08:24,360 --> 00:08:26,840 Speaker 3: to work through allies. And frankly, I should tell you 149 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 3: both as ambassador to NATO and also as ambassador to China, 150 00:08:30,960 --> 00:08:34,760 Speaker 3: we are always stronger working with our treaty allies to 151 00:08:34,920 --> 00:08:38,120 Speaker 3: contain Russian and Chinese power than trying to do it 152 00:08:38,160 --> 00:08:41,439 Speaker 3: on our own or in this case, threatening the use 153 00:08:41,480 --> 00:08:43,720 Speaker 3: of military force. It just doesn't make sense for us 154 00:08:43,800 --> 00:08:44,240 Speaker 3: to do that. 155 00:08:44,720 --> 00:08:49,520 Speaker 2: Hey, ambassador, just quickly here what happens with China next. 156 00:08:50,120 --> 00:08:54,000 Speaker 2: They certainly, as you point out, have lost face in 157 00:08:54,040 --> 00:08:56,600 Speaker 2: this whole thing, given their close partnership to Venezuela. We've 158 00:08:56,640 --> 00:08:58,720 Speaker 2: had Peter Sheher from Academy saying that they have an 159 00:08:58,800 --> 00:09:01,120 Speaker 2: army of lawyers that they might deploy. They also have 160 00:09:01,440 --> 00:09:05,240 Speaker 2: the cudgel of rare earth materials. What levers can they 161 00:09:05,280 --> 00:09:07,320 Speaker 2: pull to try to turn this around? In just a 162 00:09:07,360 --> 00:09:08,760 Speaker 2: minute here, professor. 163 00:09:08,920 --> 00:09:13,400 Speaker 3: I think the Chinese have lost faith, certainly because Venezuela 164 00:09:13,480 --> 00:09:16,480 Speaker 3: was in effect a client state in many ways of China, 165 00:09:16,520 --> 00:09:19,240 Speaker 3: and China could do nothing to prevent what the US 166 00:09:19,280 --> 00:09:24,079 Speaker 3: military did last weekend. Second, the Chinese want to continue 167 00:09:24,120 --> 00:09:27,000 Speaker 3: to be the major trade partner of South America, and 168 00:09:27,040 --> 00:09:30,400 Speaker 3: that's a really unfortunate reality for the United States. Twenty 169 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:33,440 Speaker 3: years ago, America was a leading trade partner, and nearly 170 00:09:33,480 --> 00:09:37,600 Speaker 3: everybody now China is. So I think strategically our aim 171 00:09:37,679 --> 00:09:42,800 Speaker 3: should be much stronger American investment, private investment, and government 172 00:09:42,880 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 3: activity in South America, in Central America to counteract what 173 00:09:47,480 --> 00:09:49,640 Speaker 3: I think is a very negative dynamic, and that is 174 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:53,920 Speaker 3: China's more influential than we are, unfortunately economically. So that's 175 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:57,040 Speaker 3: the route the President Biden was trying to take, and 176 00:09:57,080 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 3: I hope it's the route the President Trump will take.