Speaker 1: I remember in the seventh grade one of my friends,
Speaker 1: her older sister, was sneaking zema's. She had them under
Speaker 1: the bed. Do you know what zemas are? They were
Speaker 1: like yes, right and Berth Yes, It's like a prelude
Speaker 1: to smear advice.
Speaker 2: It was smear knov Ice before smear knop Ice. Zima
Speaker 2: was blazing the trail.
Speaker 1: Something I did without my parents' permission. I got a tattoo.
Speaker 1: Same right before going to college. I got a tattoo.
Speaker 1: And I still don't think my mom knows. She's about
Speaker 1: to know, she's about to know. I didn't know about it.
Speaker 1: Mister Shoda, Yes she did.
Speaker 2: Everybody getting in trouble. If I'm getting in trouble, you
Speaker 2: getting in trouble to you.
Speaker 1: And it was before my time. I'm t T and
Speaker 1: I'm Zachiah And from Spotify Studios. This is Dope Labs.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the Lab. This episode, we're talking about vaccines.
Speaker 1: So tt what did vaccines have to do with all
Speaker 1: the sneaky stuff we did as teenagers.
Speaker 2: Well, we started talking about it after hearing about this
Speaker 2: teenager from Ohio named Ethan Lindenberger. He snuck out of
Speaker 2: his house but not for the reasons that we were
Speaker 2: talking about, Right, he snuck out of his house to
Speaker 2: get a vaccination, Like, snuck out the house and got
Speaker 2: a golf drup living life on the wild side, man.
Speaker 1: But why did he have to sneak out to get vaccinated?
Speaker 2: So Ethan's mom is a part of this growing community
Speaker 2: that is against vaccinations. So they don't really want to
Speaker 2: vaccinate their children because they feel like it has some
Speaker 2: adverse effects. And Ethan says that his mama basically was
Speaker 2: at Facebook University getting all this information.
Speaker 1: And so he's been testifying in the Senate hearing to
Speaker 1: kind of give kids the right to get vaccinated if
Speaker 1: they want to, because he was only able to do
Speaker 1: it because he was eighteen. Right, that's when I got
Speaker 1: my tattooed. But I was still living at home and terrified.
Speaker 1: I don't know how you got away with that, Chile.
Speaker 1: The other thing to remember is that this, even though
Speaker 1: we heard about it because of Ethan, that story really
Speaker 1: helps us kind of capture where we are today. This
Speaker 1: isn't just happening in Ohio.
Speaker 2: So there are some reasons why people don't want to
Speaker 2: get vaccinated, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and some of them are good reasons, well, what
Speaker 1: I would consider a good reason, Like there are medical
Speaker 1: reasons you're allergic to something that's in the vaccine, so
Speaker 1: like if you're allergic to eggs, eggs, right, religious reasons,
Speaker 1: And then there are some people who it's like a
Speaker 1: philosophical reason, like I'm not sure about it. I don't
Speaker 1: think the government should tell me what I should do
Speaker 1: with my child.
Speaker 2: I kind of understand a little bit why people are like, oh,
Speaker 2: I'm not too sure about vaccines because people don't really
Speaker 2: trust the medical community and because of I mean, it's history,
Speaker 2: but they're absolute trust in people who are not even
Speaker 2: medicine adjacent, like people who who don't even have a
Speaker 2: lick of a degree in any type of biological science
Speaker 2: is a mind boggling to me.
Speaker 1: Like Jenny McCarthy has been one of the most outspoken
Speaker 1: celebrities against vaccines, but Cindy Crawford, Jim Carrey, Charlie Sheen,
Speaker 1: and Alicia Silverstone with Tiger Blood Tiger Blood Yes, and
Speaker 1: Alicia Silverstone from Clueless, they've all expressed concernment it comes
Speaker 1: to vaccine safety. Why are you going to Jenny McCarthy
Speaker 1: for your medical advice? I mean it's just like going
Speaker 1: to Dry Rule for political advice. You remember that Dave
Speaker 1: Chappelle's skit. Yes, it's like, no one wants to hear
Speaker 1: from dry Rule. I personally don't want to hear from
Speaker 1: Jenny McCarthy, not about medicine. Maybe she can maybe if
Speaker 1: I'm going back on singled out, I remember that showing.
Speaker 2: But other than that, no, thank you exactly unless you
Speaker 2: count down the ball drop on Ryan Seacrest New Year's
Speaker 2: Rock and Eve.
Speaker 1: I don't want to hear from you. Keep it. But
Speaker 1: you know what's happening now. People are getting sick.
Speaker 2: And the year two thousand, measles was pretty much eliminated.
Speaker 1: Right, it was eradicated. The CDC declared it eradicated, right.
Speaker 2: And now there have been already over two hundred and
Speaker 2: fifty confirmed cases of measles in twenty nine.
Speaker 1: Yeah, did you see the boy in Oregon who had
Speaker 1: tetanus and was in the hospital all those weeks? Listen.
Speaker 2: I don't even really know what tetanus is, because that's
Speaker 2: something that I felt like only the Pilgrim's.
Speaker 1: Got, well, every pilgrim had tetanus. Listen, it's the Oregon
Speaker 1: trail out here Okay, you have got to check your neighbor.
Speaker 1: I feel like we're going back in time. I don't
Speaker 1: want this life.
Speaker 2: I don't want to be walking outside and feeling like, oh,
Speaker 2: there's a chance I may catch some medieval disease.
Speaker 1: Well you better keep your eyes open because the black
Speaker 1: flague might be next. So let's get into the recitation.
Speaker 1: What do we know? Zakia? Just to get everybody on
Speaker 1: the same page, this episode is not about whether or
Speaker 1: not vaccines work.
Speaker 2: Right.
Speaker 1: We know that they work right when they're introduced to
Speaker 1: a population. The instance of those cases, right, the number
Speaker 1: of cases for the disease that you're vaccinating against, it drops,
Speaker 1: and it drops dramatically. We also know that they've been
Speaker 1: around for a while, right, Yeah, we were talking about measles,
Speaker 1: and the measles vaccine has been around since nineteen sixty three,
Speaker 1: so it's been through a lot of testing. It's also
Speaker 1: been deployed for millions of people across the United States,
Speaker 1: because that's how science works, like it gets tested over
Speaker 1: and over and over and over again, especially things that
Speaker 1: are going to be put out onto the population for
Speaker 1: us to consume. I feel like I understand how vaccines
Speaker 1: work and how viruses work. I do not, And I
Speaker 1: think because I understand what a vaccine is and what
Speaker 1: a virus is, I'm asking why are people not getting vaccinated?
Speaker 1: So I'm more interested in the behavior. I have a
Speaker 1: lot of questions.
Speaker 2: I feel like there was an uptick in people saying
Speaker 2: that their vaccine hesitant or anti vaxxers in recent years,
Speaker 2: and so I'm wondering if scientists have been seeing that.
Speaker 1: Uptick and what do they attribute to that uptick. Is
Speaker 1: it just memes on the internet or are there is
Speaker 1: there a greater force at play here? Yeah, And I'm
Speaker 1: kind of just interested in the basics, like what is
Speaker 1: a virus?
Speaker 2: Like, what is a vaccine? How does a vaccine work?
Speaker 2: So let's get into the dissection.
Speaker 1: Buckle in, here we go. Today's guest is doctor Rupolli LeMay.
Speaker 3: I am an assistant scientist here at the Johns Hopkins
Speaker 3: Bloomberg School of Public Health. I also serve as the
Speaker 3: Associate director for Behavioral Research for the Institute for Vaccine Safety.
Speaker 2: So one of the things that's really cool about Rupauli
Speaker 2: is that she used to be in marketing.
Speaker 1: So she knows about a good message.
Speaker 3: So I've come at public health in a very different way.
Speaker 3: And what we're trying to do is think about how
Speaker 3: do we use persuasion techniques to get parents to accept
Speaker 3: vaccines for their children.
Speaker 1: Rupolli is a woman after our own hearts. She understands
Speaker 1: that the science it's only as good as the medium
Speaker 1: that you're using to communicate it, right, Right, nobody wants
Speaker 1: to read paragraphs on paragraphs of the dry eyes commercial
Speaker 1: basis exactly. Nobody wants that you.
Speaker 2: Know, there's verses, right, So first things first, before we
Speaker 2: get into vaccines and how they work, let's start with
Speaker 2: the basics.
Speaker 1: What is a virus? I like to think of viruses
Speaker 1: as like little peanut eminem's right, love peanut M and M.
Speaker 1: Well you want well, love peanut eminems and not viruses.
Speaker 1: So you have the hard shell, right, that's like your
Speaker 1: protein coat that has different particles and different types of
Speaker 1: proteins on the outside, and then inside the peanut is
Speaker 1: some type of nucleic acid. So it could be DNA
Speaker 1: or RNA depending on the virus. So that's the anatomy.
Speaker 1: That's the basic anatomy of a virus.
Speaker 2: Okay, peanut eminem i got it, But what do they
Speaker 2: do it?
Speaker 3: Really lives to reproduce, is what it's. It's really the
Speaker 3: best way to explain it.
Speaker 1: And it's spread by a number of ways.
Speaker 3: Right, you can cough on someone, You can have droplets
Speaker 3: in the air from sneezing, really any contact, mostly with
Speaker 3: bodily fluids.
Speaker 2: Remember that woman that was on the train with us
Speaker 2: coughing and not covering her mouth.
Speaker 1: Yes, she was a projectile.
Speaker 2: Pushing those organisms all over the train, and I was like,
Speaker 2: we have to change cars. Zakia literally leaned over to
Speaker 2: me and said, she has protests, we have to change cars.
Speaker 2: If she wasn't going to cover her mouth, she at
Speaker 2: least needed to put on like a nextcare mask. Yes, okay,
Speaker 2: but once you get a virus, how do those things
Speaker 2: harlem shake through your whole entire body.
Speaker 3: So usually what happens is that a virus will enter
Speaker 3: your body, it has to find a hostyle to infect.
Speaker 3: Once it gets into that host cell, it replicates, and
Speaker 3: then once it replicates, it leaves that host cell through
Speaker 3: the membrane and goes to infect other host cells.
Speaker 1: I think viruses are like you know in the cartoons
Speaker 1: where it's like two kids and a coat. They ring
Speaker 1: there like when there's the little rascals when they stack
Speaker 1: them cells on top, stack themselves on top of each
Speaker 1: other and ring the doorbell. That's how a virus enters
Speaker 1: your cells.
Speaker 2: Right, Hello, I'm here to sell you encyclopedias. Then they
Speaker 2: get inside like psych I'm here to infect and.
Speaker 1: Then they just hijack all the machinery and make tons
Speaker 1: of more virus that then goes on to do the
Speaker 1: same thing at each other hostess dipset and go to
Speaker 1: the next cell.
Speaker 3: So it just continues to spread rapidly through your body.
Speaker 1: So what really happens If you think about each cell
Speaker 1: as like a house in a neighborhood. You go from
Speaker 1: one person ringing the doorbell, right, one of those disguises
Speaker 1: is to like trigger treat. It's like everybody at every
Speaker 1: door pushing to get into all those host sales. Right,
Speaker 1: it's mayhem, it's madness.
Speaker 2: After these cells are infected with these viruses, these kids
Speaker 2: that are just running up on all of us, what happens.
Speaker 2: What are the symptoms that start to occur. Let's take
Speaker 2: measles for example.
Speaker 3: In terms of symptoms, it's sort of the run of
Speaker 3: the melt, like it's a fever. It's a cough, it's
Speaker 3: a runny nose, it could be a sore throat. Your
Speaker 3: child could get conjunctivitis. So if you're a parent and
Speaker 3: you're experiencing these symptoms with your child, you might just say, oh,
Speaker 3: my kid has the flu or you know, some sort
Speaker 3: of other viral infection. It wouldn't necessarily think it was measles.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and this can get really serious and in some
Speaker 1: cases it can lead to death. That's a lot of backterier.
Speaker 1: Can I just use a bunch of pirel?
Speaker 3: Uh?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 2: So?
Speaker 1: Oh no, no, I know I said something wrong. You know, uh,
Speaker 1: that's not quite right. There's a big difference between viruses
Speaker 1: and bacteria, one being that there's no cure for a virus.
Speaker 3: So, you know, from like a parental perspective, people will say, oh,
Speaker 3: you know, maybe your doctor'll say we'll give a viral infection,
Speaker 3: and they'll say, well, can I get antibiotics? It's not
Speaker 3: really going to do anything for it.
Speaker 2: Oh so pirel is not gonna it's not gonna do that,
Speaker 2: not gonna. So, because viruses don't have a cure, it's
Speaker 2: all about.
Speaker 1: Prevention, and a lot of that has to do with
Speaker 1: being able to defend against them when they present to
Speaker 1: our bodies or when we encounter them.
Speaker 3: Vaccinations can't cure them, but they can stop them from spreading,
Speaker 3: and that's why vaccinations are so important within viruses.
Speaker 2: So let's have doctor LeMay help us break down vaccines.
Speaker 2: What are they and how do they work.
Speaker 3: The most I think common way that people are familiar
Speaker 3: with is that you take the virus, you weaken it,
Speaker 3: you then inject it into someone's body through a vaccine.
Speaker 3: So then your immune system, your B cell sort of response,
Speaker 3: remembers it. So in the future, if you get infected
Speaker 3: by that virus, you're able to fight against it.
Speaker 2: B cells these are white blood cells that help your
Speaker 2: body with building immunity.
Speaker 1: So when we think about immunity, they are kind of
Speaker 1: two different ways. You split it up. There's innate immunity
Speaker 1: that you're born with, and then there's adaptive immunity, which
Speaker 1: is where B sales play a role. And adaptive immunity
Speaker 1: is like see something, say something. So I saw something
Speaker 1: that's out of place and is strange. I remember it
Speaker 1: and the next time I see it, I know to
Speaker 1: get rid of it. And so your b are part
Speaker 1: of that system.
Speaker 2: So when the vaccine, the weak and form of the
Speaker 2: virus is injected into you. It's just so that your
Speaker 2: body recognizes it when the real deal shows up.
Speaker 3: But because it's a weakened virus, your body is able
Speaker 3: to fight it. So as a result, when you actually
Speaker 3: perhaps encounter that virus, you will be able to fight
Speaker 3: it and not deal with really the more negative and
Speaker 3: dire consequences of viruses.
Speaker 2: Your body is creating a most wanted list so that
Speaker 2: as soon as it sees this person is showing up
Speaker 2: at your door, it's like, I know exactly who you are,
Speaker 2: and I'm not answering it.
Speaker 3: If a virus enters your body that you're vaccinated against,
Speaker 3: your immune system has already seen this before, so the
Speaker 3: sort of flag goes up. The army kind of gets
Speaker 3: into place of your immune system, if you will, and
Speaker 3: they know how to fight it.
Speaker 2: So what vaccines are sounding like is like a dating
Speaker 2: app essentially, It's like vaccine tender. You see something coming up,
Speaker 2: that virus got a gold to swipe left right, a
Speaker 2: political swipe left, struggle mals swipe left.
Speaker 1: That's right. So now we know how vaccines work on
Speaker 1: a cellular level, But how do they work in the
Speaker 1: broad population.
Speaker 2: Here at Dope Blasts, we try not to throw around
Speaker 2: a lot of scientific words, but there are two words
Speaker 2: you really need to know for this episode, herd immunity.
Speaker 3: So I think the easiest way to think about herd
Speaker 3: immunity is thinking about it like a protective net if
Speaker 3: enough people. Let's say you have ten people in a herd,
Speaker 3: and let's say that all of them are vaccinated, So
Speaker 3: if measles comes along and wants to infect someone, it
Speaker 3: will just die out because there's no one for it
Speaker 3: to infect. And we know for it to live, it
Speaker 3: has to be able to replicate. It literally exists to replicate.
Speaker 3: If we think about it from a different scenario and
Speaker 3: let's say out of ten people, only five people are vaccinated,
Speaker 3: it's much easier for measles to get in and then
Speaker 3: spread it to other people. So there has to be
Speaker 3: enough susceptible people or hosts for the virus to continue
Speaker 3: to live.
Speaker 1: And that protective armor is so much more important when
Speaker 1: the virus is contagious. So there are levels to how
Speaker 1: contagious a virus is. So, for example, measles is really
Speaker 1: highly contagious, and what we mean by that is we
Speaker 1: use a number called the reproductive number, and that tells
Speaker 1: you how many more people can be infected by one
Speaker 1: case of measles. So let's just say you have twenty
Speaker 1: people over at a dinner party.
Speaker 2: I don't know if I would have twenty people, but
Speaker 2: that's fine, Okay, I don't know twenty people.
Speaker 1: I just know you, your husband, and your sisters and
Speaker 1: your parents, and that's it. That's not even twenty and
Speaker 1: Daisy my dog. So if you had twenty people over
Speaker 1: for a dinner party and one person showed up and
Speaker 1: had measles and no one in the room was vaccinated,
Speaker 1: twelve to eighteen people would get measles. Oh my god.
Speaker 1: So that's how many cases can you get from one
Speaker 1: case of measles. So if you think about what that
Speaker 1: number is for let's say HIV, it's two to five
Speaker 1: people at the party, considering they had sexual conn What
Speaker 1: about protests like that woman like, that's about five to
Speaker 1: five and a half people on average, So, oh my goodness,
Speaker 1: we really could have got protested. Well, well I can't
Speaker 1: because I'm vaccinating vaccinated. It come on, somebody. So the
Speaker 1: thing to think about is herd immunity is particularly important
Speaker 1: for something like measles, where the contagiousness is so so hi.
Speaker 3: That's why measles is such a challenge for us, because
Speaker 3: we have to really have high rates of adherence to
Speaker 3: the vaccine, and if you don't, it ends up spreading
Speaker 3: very very very rapidly, and that just happens to do
Speaker 3: with how they transmit.
Speaker 2: So even if you don't think you need a vaccine,
Speaker 2: part of her immunity is that it's not just about.
Speaker 1: You, right, what about older people? What about babies they
Speaker 1: can't get vaccinated? Yet not being a self self centered it's.
Speaker 3: About protecting the people that you love, and we're doing
Speaker 3: this strategy it's called cocooning where we're asking, for example,
Speaker 3: if you're about to have a baby that you as
Speaker 3: the mother, as well as everyone that you found yourself with,
Speaker 3: your spouse, your mother in law, your parents, et cetera,
Speaker 3: should all get the flu vaccine because that baby can't
Speaker 3: be fully vaccinated for a while. So you are literally
Speaker 3: forming that level of protection, that sort of web if
Speaker 3: you will, until that baby is old enough to get vaccinated.
Speaker 1: That's exactly what Gabrielle Union did right when Kavea James
Speaker 1: Union Wade aka Shady baby he was born, and Oprah
Speaker 1: wanted to do an interview. Gabrielle said that everyone on
Speaker 1: the production team had to be vaccinated before they stepped
Speaker 1: foot into her house. She was Cocoon and the shady baby,
Speaker 1: and that's exactly what her community is is providing indirect
Speaker 1: protection for a baby. Kvea. We love you, Kavia, we
Speaker 1: love you. Yes, we're big fans.
Speaker 2: Okay, we're gonna take a break, and when we come back,
Speaker 2: we're gonna talk about the good and bad feelings that
Speaker 2: are associated with vaccination.
Speaker 1: The good, the bad, and the ugly. I always love
Speaker 1: saying that I don't like Clint Eastwood no more, though
Speaker 1: we don't like a lot of people anymore. Stay tuned,
Speaker 1: all right, So we're back and we're ready to talk
Speaker 1: about vaccine hesitancy. What's up with that?
Speaker 3: Vaccine hesitancy is anyone that thinks about delaying of vaccine,
Speaker 3: trying to think about an alternative schedule, or really having
Speaker 3: major concerns that would make them think about perhaps not
Speaker 3: getting a vaccine that's recommended.
Speaker 2: So, in terms of how people feel about vaccinations, it's
Speaker 2: kind of a spectrum, right, We're on one end. You
Speaker 2: have people who are saying yeah, that's totally fine, I'm
Speaker 2: going to take my kid to go get vaccinated as
Speaker 2: soon as the doctor tells me.
Speaker 3: Mostly about a third of the population is usually kind
Speaker 3: of like, yeah, I'm going to get vaccines. I'm going
Speaker 3: to do what my doctor says.
Speaker 1: Right on the other end of the spectrum, you have
Speaker 1: people who are completely against it and they say no,
Speaker 1: I will not vaccinate my child no matter what. Yes,
Speaker 1: And that's about two percent, and they're commonly called anti
Speaker 1: vaxxers or anti vaccination.
Speaker 3: Then you have another probably fifty percent of the population
Speaker 3: that is sort of ambivalent, if you will, so just
Speaker 3: needs to be nudged in the right direction.
Speaker 1: And then there's a huge chunk leftover who might just
Speaker 1: be vaccine hesitant. So what are the reasons that people
Speaker 1: tend to be vaccine hesitant? What leads them to this hesitancy.
Speaker 1: So there's usually three reasons people tend to be vaccine hesitant.
Speaker 1: One has to do with this unfortunate misconception related to
Speaker 1: adverse events related to vaccines. So that's what's really driving hesitancy,
Speaker 1: is people are concerned about safety of vaccines. The second
Speaker 1: tends to be about the schedule I think that parents
Speaker 1: get very overwhelmed, particularly when they first have a baby
Speaker 1: and they realize how many shots this baby has to
Speaker 1: get at the two month, at the four month, at
Speaker 1: the six month, and they think, oh, my gosh, this
Speaker 1: can't be good. Right.
Speaker 3: And then the third sort of reason that people are
Speaker 3: hesitant is having to do with ingredients. Like people will say, oh,
Speaker 3: there's formal to hide in a vaccine, And the way
Speaker 3: that we have tried to address this is, you know,
Speaker 3: my response to them is, you know what, there's more
Speaker 3: formal to hide in a pair that's in a vaccine.
Speaker 1: I've never felt more betrayed by a fruit like Rick
Speaker 1: Ross's shout out to de Paars shut out to pairs.
Speaker 3: But we do hear that concern from parents. They're sort
Speaker 3: of like, why would I inject a virus inside of me?
Speaker 3: What we're trying to get parents to understand is that
Speaker 3: it's better for your body to be exposed to it
Speaker 3: so that you're ready to prepare it. I kind of
Speaker 3: think about it like a car seat for a baby.
Speaker 3: You hope that you're not in a car accident ever,
Speaker 3: but it's nice that it's there, so if a car
Speaker 3: accident does happen. Your child is protected.
Speaker 2: Okay, so let's go back to the first reason that
Speaker 2: Rupauli mentioned, the one about misconceptions around vaccine safety. Unfortunately,
Speaker 2: there's been at least one well known instance where a
Speaker 2: doctor published research around vaccines that was later proven to
Speaker 2: be complete trash in that it was completely false.
Speaker 3: The biggest one in sort of the elephant in the room, right,
Speaker 3: is sort of the nineteen ninety eight study that was
Speaker 3: published that made this unfounded and incorrect link between the
Speaker 3: MMR vaccine, which is measles moms and rubella and autism. Right,
Speaker 3: that paper was protracted, he lost his medical license.
Speaker 1: Not only was the science not sound in that study,
Speaker 1: but he also had other financial competing financial interests because
Speaker 1: he was trying to make his own measles vaccine.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, the misconceptions that that article started we're still struggling
Speaker 3: with now.
Speaker 1: So information is a really important part of staying healthy.
Speaker 1: Remember the more you know. Yes, right, it's true though,
Speaker 1: and part of why we're experiencing a rise in viruses
Speaker 1: that were once squashed is because there's a lot of
Speaker 1: conflicting information being shared out there and it's not always
Speaker 1: backed up by actual fact, Right, and when you have
Speaker 1: a large platform, the information you share has such a
Speaker 1: great effect. And case in point is Jenny McCarthy. Her
Speaker 1: son does not have autism and he was vaccinated and
Speaker 1: even though she later recanted, it was delayed.
Speaker 3: But the damage was done right, And she's just one
Speaker 3: of them. And I think that if you have someone
Speaker 3: like that that has a platform, that has a large
Speaker 3: platform and is spouting misinformation, yeah, it's really hard for
Speaker 3: us to correct that, Like who am I or some
Speaker 3: other kind of academic person to come on and say,
Speaker 3: guess what? It doesn't cause about who do you think
Speaker 3: people are gonna believe?
Speaker 1: Jo Rule is not all knowing, and neither is your
Speaker 1: favorite celeb on Instagram.
Speaker 2: What's really interesting is that information is just like virus. Right,
Speaker 2: So when that virus shows up, or the information shows
Speaker 2: up at your front door, and it's wearing that disguise
Speaker 2: and it's not actually fact, it's just non fact being
Speaker 2: said by somebody famous or somebody that you really like
Speaker 2: or somebody that you really admire. You let that information
Speaker 2: into your house and you just let it replicate and
Speaker 2: then you spread it. And so that false information just
Speaker 2: spreads just like a virus does.
Speaker 3: So we have to figure out and we have to
Speaker 3: think about how misinformation is spreading and proliferating so rapidly,
Speaker 3: because if not, this misinformation is already starting to outnumber correct,
Speaker 3: scientific evidence based information.
Speaker 2: If you come across a meme that you aren't sure
Speaker 2: is scientifically correct, please tag dope Blast podcasts in it.
Speaker 1: We'll do the work for you. We'll do the leg
Speaker 1: work because we're all friends here. We don't want you
Speaker 1: to let those incorrect memes and a trench coat into
Speaker 1: your home.
Speaker 3: The other thing I think that really plays into this
Speaker 3: is how many parents do you know go on social
Speaker 3: media and say, Hey, I had a great vaccine experience.
Speaker 3: Most parents aren't going to say that, So most of
Speaker 3: the parents that are being vocal are ones that will say, oh,
Speaker 3: I had a terrible vaccine experience. I think it led
Speaker 3: my baby to.
Speaker 1: X, Y and Z.
Speaker 2: Negative views on vaccines are just like Yelp reviews. You
Speaker 2: don't leave a Yelp review unless you got something to
Speaker 2: complain about. So what we need is more people saying
Speaker 2: positive things.
Speaker 1: Like I got a flu vaccine and I didn't get
Speaker 1: the flu this season.
Speaker 2: And neither did my grandmama, right or my baby cousin exactly.
Speaker 1: Everybody's healthy.
Speaker 3: And the thing I think that blows my mind the
Speaker 3: most is when I look at social media and I
Speaker 3: think about why are messages so incredibly effective. It's because
Speaker 3: they're really focusing on emotional you know, emotions of the parent,
Speaker 3: fear based appeals to the parent they're looking at. They're
Speaker 3: using stories or music, anecdotal stories, which I think are
Speaker 3: just much better for parents to understand.
Speaker 1: Basically, doctor LeMay is saying we need more memes that
Speaker 1: spread the truth, because really, all it takes is one
Speaker 1: meme with Will Smith in the background looking serious in
Speaker 1: a total neck and y'all will believe anything. People are
Speaker 1: out here making memes and they don't care about the facts.
Speaker 1: They show a Lamborghini icon of somebody in a business
Speaker 1: suit and a needle and say like, big Pharma is
Speaker 1: making vaccines to make two trillion dollars off of your babies.
Speaker 1: That are no, it's just crazy.
Speaker 2: You're just doing Google and researches and then putting all
Speaker 2: those things together in a PowerPoint Yeah, and a fool
Speaker 2: of nobody.
Speaker 1: Bruh.
Speaker 2: Vaccines honestly only account for two percent of the profit
Speaker 2: that Big Farmer make.
Speaker 3: I think the number one drug you know, one is
Speaker 3: for a rectile dysfunction, sort of most prescribed and also
Speaker 3: most profitable, but there's also one for toe fungus. And
Speaker 3: I'm blinking on what the prescription is in terms of
Speaker 3: money making drugs, if you will. Right, So, vaccines, in
Speaker 3: the grand scheme of things, do not Pharmaceutical companies do
Speaker 3: not make money off of them.
Speaker 1: A lot of y'all got toe fungused, that's what I'm learning,
Speaker 1: or a few of y'all are spending a lot of
Speaker 1: money on the prescription.
Speaker 3: Unfortunately, because of the political climate, our nation has become
Speaker 3: just extremely divisive, especially in political opinions, and so what
Speaker 3: we are finding and you hear about this a lot,
Speaker 3: you sort of think, oh, I am really worldly and
Speaker 3: I traveled the world and I have all these friends,
Speaker 3: but you really mostly live in a bubble.
Speaker 1: So even though we're super connected and we have all
Speaker 1: these platforms that are that allows us to talk to
Speaker 1: people all over, we're choosing to talk to people that
Speaker 1: have the same ideas as us. And that's part of
Speaker 1: the problem, right, because we're talking to people that believe
Speaker 1: the things already is like preaching to the choir over
Speaker 1: and over and over again.
Speaker 3: But unfortunately, what that does is that tends to not
Speaker 3: allow ideas to kind of spread and bridge across networks.
Speaker 3: So as a result, if let's say, an influential person
Speaker 3: in your network says, hey, you know what, I'm anti vaccine.
Speaker 3: I think they're terrible because of X, Y and Z,
Speaker 3: And if you don't really know that much about vaccines,
Speaker 3: you would say, oh, well, this person probably knows what
Speaker 3: he or she is thinking about and talking about, and
Speaker 3: you're going to be much more susceptible to being influenced
Speaker 3: by that person.
Speaker 2: Right, It's just like that emotional mind thing we're talking
Speaker 2: about in the last episode. Yes, you will search for
Speaker 2: the facts that support the beliefs and the views that
Speaker 2: you have. So this reminds me of Jess Hilarious when
Speaker 2: she was going through something she posted, you know, her apology.
Speaker 2: She was just misunderstood in everything that she retweeted was
Speaker 2: people that agreed with her perspective exactly. But I could
Speaker 2: look at her comments and see that a ton of
Speaker 2: people were disagreeing. So what should people do if they're
Speaker 2: unsure about vaccines and what more information?
Speaker 3: They should talk to someone that they trust. Unfortunately, that
Speaker 3: tends the best person that you trust may not be
Speaker 3: the person that's most knowledgeable, right, And I understand that
Speaker 3: there's been this decrease in trust with your healthcare provider
Speaker 3: and that is unfortunate. But thinking about perhaps who has
Speaker 3: the expertise to talk about this, but also who has
Speaker 3: your best interest heart?
Speaker 1: So what do we take away from this?
Speaker 2: So one thing that we want to point out is
Speaker 2: that we are talking about the US when throughout this
Speaker 2: whole episode, there are developing countries where vaccines are not
Speaker 2: readily available. And I think, just for me, I know
Speaker 2: how viruses work, but to think about how contagious measles is,
Speaker 2: and to think about those countries where vaccines are not
Speaker 2: as readily available and there's not a lot of great infrastructure,
Speaker 2: so people are, you know, in constant contact with each other.
Speaker 2: I can just think of how how these diseases just
Speaker 2: ripple through those populations and really just take hold of
Speaker 2: a community and can almost destroy it.
Speaker 1: And I think it's so easy for us to take
Speaker 1: this for granted, you know. And I think some of
Speaker 1: this taking it for granted goes back to what you
Speaker 1: said about the Yelp review. I never had measles, so
Speaker 1: I don't really care about a measles vaccine so much.
Speaker 1: I'm not talking about it because also the people around
Speaker 1: me haven't had measles because they were vaccinated. But this
Speaker 1: could be a very real reality if we don't keep
Speaker 1: our herd immunity levels or having ninety five percent of
Speaker 1: our population vaccinated, if we don't keep that level high. Right,
Speaker 1: And even when you think about things like natural disasters
Speaker 1: and the viruses and things like that that spring up
Speaker 1: after that because of water born water borne pathogens can
Speaker 1: take you out. Yeah.
Speaker 2: So, like even there was a cyclone that hit Beta, Mozambique,
Speaker 2: and now people are trying to support the relief effort,
Speaker 2: and one of the main things that people are talking
Speaker 2: about is medication because there's a lot of water. Everything
Speaker 2: is underwater, and so that's one of the things that
Speaker 2: folks are trying to do to support the people there.
Speaker 2: Same thing with Nebraska, right And in Nebraska, you know.
Speaker 1: Something that we've gone back and forth about is whether
Speaker 1: to say, you know, what our position is. But I
Speaker 1: think the only responsible thing is to say, like, the
Speaker 1: facts line up. The facts line up for me, and
Speaker 1: that is that it's important to get vaccinated.
Speaker 2: Global citizenship is something that's really important and we should
Speaker 2: all keep that in mind when we are making these decisions.
Speaker 1: We're not telling you what to do. We're saying what
Speaker 1: we do.
Speaker 2: And I'm getting vaccinated because I am a citizen of
Speaker 2: this world.
Speaker 1: Thanks for hanging out with us in the lab today.
Speaker 1: Don't forget to check out our website for a cheat sheet.
Speaker 1: On today's episode, we're gonna include a lot of good
Speaker 1: info and some pretty charts and graphs for you too.
Speaker 2: Also, we want to hear from you, and now we
Speaker 2: have a phone number so you can call and leave
Speaker 2: us a message. For our next episode, we're going to
Speaker 2: be taking a trip into the magical mythical kingdom of Wakanda.
Speaker 2: Are you excited about the new Avengers movie and the
Speaker 2: Black Panther sequel? Do you know what vibranium is made of?
Speaker 2: Our number is two zero two five six seven seven
Speaker 2: zero two eight.
Speaker 1: That's two zero two five six seven seven zero two eight.
Speaker 1: Find us on Twitter and Instagram at Dope Last Podcast
Speaker 1: t T is on Twitter at dr Underscore t SHO
Speaker 1: and you can find Zakiya at z said so. And
Speaker 1: if you do love the show, don't forget to follow
Speaker 1: us on Spotify or wherever else you listen to podcasts.
Speaker 2: Special thanks to today's guest doctor, Polly LeMay. You can
Speaker 2: learn more about her work in the show notes on
Speaker 2: Dope lasspodcast dot com.
Speaker 1: Our producer is Jenny Rattletmask mixing and sound design by HANNS.
Speaker 2: Brown. Original theme music by tak Yasuzawa and Alex Sugiura.
Speaker 2: Additional music by Elijah Alex Harvey.
Speaker 1: Dope Laps is brought to you by three M and
Speaker 1: is a production of Spotify Studios and Mega Ohm Media Group,
Speaker 1: and it's executive produced by us T. T. Shidia and
Speaker 1: Zakiyah Wattley. I had a friend who treated heel. He
Speaker 1: was a virologist. We were getting ready to go out
Speaker 1: to eat and he said, did you get the flu
Speaker 1: vaccine yet? And I said no. He said, oh, well
Speaker 1: then we can't go to dinner. I was like what,
Speaker 1: And he walked with me to write aid to get
Speaker 1: the flu vaccine and then we went to dinner. All right, Well,
Speaker 1: that's a real friend.