1 00:00:03,760 --> 00:00:08,000 Speaker 1: If he's telling you he's innocent, he's not. Let me 2 00:00:08,039 --> 00:00:13,200 Speaker 1: assure you he's not. I probably had no business testifying 3 00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:15,960 Speaker 1: so he wouldn't get the death penalty. I only knew 4 00:00:15,960 --> 00:00:19,560 Speaker 1: what I knew at the time, and I felt really 5 00:00:19,600 --> 00:00:34,280 Speaker 1: guilty for doing that and sparing his life. 6 00:00:35,400 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 2: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal, A show about 7 00:00:38,720 --> 00:00:42,080 Speaker 2: the people we trust the most and the deceptions that 8 00:00:42,280 --> 00:00:48,360 Speaker 2: change everything. Loriie Oxford grew up in Eagle Rock, a 9 00:00:48,400 --> 00:00:49,960 Speaker 2: neighborhood in Los Angeles. 10 00:00:50,479 --> 00:00:54,880 Speaker 1: I was the second daughter of Jody and John Orr, 11 00:00:55,920 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: and my sister is two years older than me. 12 00:00:59,320 --> 00:01:02,040 Speaker 2: When Laurie was just a year old, her parents separated. 13 00:01:02,840 --> 00:01:05,600 Speaker 2: She and her sister lived with their mom and saw 14 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:07,080 Speaker 2: their dad every other weekend. 15 00:01:08,240 --> 00:01:11,640 Speaker 1: Shortly after my parents divorced, my mom met my stepdad. 16 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:14,760 Speaker 1: His name was Jerry, and he moved in right away. 17 00:01:15,640 --> 00:01:20,280 Speaker 1: Things were rough at home. Jerry was very abusive and 18 00:01:20,760 --> 00:01:23,680 Speaker 1: an angry person, so when we would go to my 19 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,640 Speaker 1: dad's house, that would be vacation or reprieve from what 20 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: was going on at home with mom. 21 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:34,000 Speaker 2: Laurie and her sister looked forward to spending time with 22 00:01:34,040 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 2: their dad. With him they could relax and just be kids. 23 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:41,520 Speaker 2: It was the seventies and eighties in Los Angeles. 24 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,160 Speaker 1: We would do the fun things. We would go places, 25 00:01:44,240 --> 00:01:45,840 Speaker 1: go to movies, go to plays. 26 00:01:46,760 --> 00:01:49,600 Speaker 2: Her dad, John loved being outdoors. 27 00:01:49,760 --> 00:01:55,480 Speaker 1: Going camping, fishing, hiking, things like that with dad and 28 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,080 Speaker 1: his dad, which is my grandfather, they were very much outdoorsmen. 29 00:02:00,360 --> 00:02:03,240 Speaker 2: John always had fun with the kids, but he wasn't 30 00:02:03,240 --> 00:02:04,680 Speaker 2: the most expressive father. 31 00:02:05,640 --> 00:02:09,600 Speaker 1: He was somewhat of a mystery. He didn't say a 32 00:02:09,680 --> 00:02:13,079 Speaker 1: whole lot. He didn't talk about his feelings a whole lot. 33 00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:16,919 Speaker 2: From a young age, Lourie and her sister knew that 34 00:02:16,960 --> 00:02:19,359 Speaker 2: their dad had a very important job. 35 00:02:19,800 --> 00:02:23,679 Speaker 1: The time that he didn't spend with us, he would 36 00:02:23,720 --> 00:02:27,320 Speaker 1: be at work, and that was okay with us because 37 00:02:27,360 --> 00:02:28,359 Speaker 1: he was saving people. 38 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:30,560 Speaker 2: John was a firefighter. 39 00:02:31,720 --> 00:02:34,359 Speaker 1: We would go with him to the fire station and 40 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: everybody would talk to him. Everybody would stop to talk 41 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:39,520 Speaker 1: to my sister and I. 42 00:02:40,320 --> 00:02:43,959 Speaker 2: He was a respected leader and experienced firefighter, and to 43 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:46,880 Speaker 2: Lourie and her sister, he was a hero. 44 00:02:47,919 --> 00:02:50,440 Speaker 1: We would see him on TV and he would be 45 00:02:50,840 --> 00:02:55,680 Speaker 1: saving a dog or saving someone's life. My sister and 46 00:02:55,720 --> 00:02:59,120 Speaker 1: I would always be tickled when we would see him 47 00:02:59,120 --> 00:03:02,160 Speaker 1: on the news. We'd go to school and tell our friends, 48 00:03:02,160 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: did you see the news last night? My dad was 49 00:03:04,320 --> 00:03:04,720 Speaker 1: on there. 50 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,080 Speaker 2: John rose through the ranks of the fire department. He 51 00:03:11,160 --> 00:03:14,560 Speaker 2: was promoted to fire captain. Then he was promoted to 52 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:18,200 Speaker 2: the role of arson investigator. There were only a few 53 00:03:18,240 --> 00:03:22,400 Speaker 2: in La County. Arson investigators determined the cause of a 54 00:03:22,440 --> 00:03:27,240 Speaker 2: fire by collecting evidence, interviewing witnesses, and examining the scene 55 00:03:27,280 --> 00:03:30,240 Speaker 2: of the fire for any clues as to what started it. 56 00:03:30,800 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 2: The role was kind of like a cross between a 57 00:03:32,680 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: firefighter and a police detective. It was John's dream job. 58 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:42,640 Speaker 2: Being an arson investigator also meant John had the ability 59 00:03:42,720 --> 00:03:43,880 Speaker 2: to arrest people. 60 00:03:45,920 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 1: One time, my sister and I were going with him 61 00:03:48,960 --> 00:03:52,160 Speaker 1: for the weekend and we were driving back to his house, 62 00:03:52,680 --> 00:03:55,160 Speaker 1: and in the old days, they would have the light 63 00:03:55,320 --> 00:03:57,960 Speaker 1: to pull people over with, and all of a sudden, 64 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:01,040 Speaker 1: he put that on his roof of his car to 65 00:04:01,080 --> 00:04:07,720 Speaker 1: pull somebody over. He was very serious and stern, and 66 00:04:07,800 --> 00:04:10,880 Speaker 1: he told us to get underneath the dash onto the 67 00:04:10,920 --> 00:04:14,760 Speaker 1: floor and don't get up until I come back. And 68 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:17,359 Speaker 1: he reached in the glove compartment, took out his gun, 69 00:04:17,520 --> 00:04:20,400 Speaker 1: and then went outside onto the side of the freeway. 70 00:04:21,800 --> 00:04:24,560 Speaker 2: Laurie and her sister hid in the car, not sure 71 00:04:24,640 --> 00:04:25,440 Speaker 2: what was happening. 72 00:04:25,960 --> 00:04:28,760 Speaker 1: Then he came back into the car, told us we 73 00:04:28,760 --> 00:04:31,280 Speaker 1: could get up, put the gun away, drove off, and 74 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:32,880 Speaker 1: we never heard another word about it. 75 00:04:35,320 --> 00:04:38,880 Speaker 2: John's job scared LORII and her sister sometimes they didn't 76 00:04:38,920 --> 00:04:41,479 Speaker 2: want their dad to get hurt, but they knew he 77 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,640 Speaker 2: was doing noble work. In a region like southern California, 78 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:50,600 Speaker 2: where fires caused devastating losses every year, local fire departments 79 00:04:50,640 --> 00:04:54,520 Speaker 2: are especially vital to the safety of the community. When 80 00:04:54,560 --> 00:04:57,520 Speaker 2: major fires in the area happened, John was called to 81 00:04:57,520 --> 00:05:02,280 Speaker 2: the scene. He developed a reputation as highly respected arson investigator. 82 00:05:02,880 --> 00:05:05,400 Speaker 2: He had to make sense of countless scenes of destruction. 83 00:05:07,680 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 2: One of the most heartbreaking cases he handled was a 84 00:05:10,760 --> 00:05:13,640 Speaker 2: fire that broke out in a hardware store in Pasadena 85 00:05:13,800 --> 00:05:14,839 Speaker 2: in nineteen eighty four. 86 00:05:15,720 --> 00:05:20,280 Speaker 1: Four people died. Two were employees, and then a grandmother 87 00:05:20,400 --> 00:05:25,000 Speaker 1: and her grandson. They were being escorted out of the 88 00:05:25,040 --> 00:05:28,640 Speaker 1: fire by an employee and they ended up getting separated 89 00:05:28,640 --> 00:05:32,599 Speaker 1: from that employee. The employee barely made it out with 90 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,000 Speaker 1: lots of burns, but the grandmother and her grandson, they 91 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:38,400 Speaker 1: were about twenty feet from the exit when they did 92 00:05:38,440 --> 00:05:40,120 Speaker 1: find them deceased in the fire. 93 00:05:41,160 --> 00:05:43,599 Speaker 2: The Sheriff's department found the cause of the fire to 94 00:05:43,640 --> 00:05:48,239 Speaker 2: be accidental, a case of faulty electrical wiring. But John 95 00:05:49,000 --> 00:05:49,840 Speaker 2: saw it differently. 96 00:05:50,880 --> 00:05:55,200 Speaker 1: He knew that it was arson, and he was vocal 97 00:05:55,240 --> 00:05:57,120 Speaker 1: about that to a number of different people. 98 00:05:58,320 --> 00:06:02,239 Speaker 2: He saw clues nobody else's did. He kept the community safe, 99 00:06:02,920 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 2: and Laurie always felt safe with him too. 100 00:06:06,680 --> 00:06:10,599 Speaker 1: I didn't even tell Dad that Jerry, my stepdad, was abusive, 101 00:06:11,120 --> 00:06:14,200 Speaker 1: so Dad didn't know what was going on at mom's house. 102 00:06:15,120 --> 00:06:17,880 Speaker 1: I was never scared of my dad. He never was 103 00:06:18,240 --> 00:06:24,040 Speaker 1: a disciplinarian in our life at all. With Dad, it 104 00:06:24,160 --> 00:06:27,440 Speaker 1: was just about having fun and I didn't see anything 105 00:06:27,480 --> 00:06:32,560 Speaker 1: even close to anger with him. 106 00:06:32,680 --> 00:06:35,520 Speaker 2: In high school, Laurie and her sister lived full time 107 00:06:35,640 --> 00:06:38,760 Speaker 2: with their mom and Jerry and saw their dad less often, 108 00:06:39,480 --> 00:06:42,520 Speaker 2: but John continued to support the girls as best he could. 109 00:06:43,480 --> 00:06:47,360 Speaker 1: He provided my first car, so I got my grandmother's 110 00:06:47,440 --> 00:06:52,480 Speaker 1: old car, VW. Rabbit and it was orange, but I 111 00:06:52,560 --> 00:06:53,000 Speaker 1: loved it. 112 00:06:53,800 --> 00:06:57,760 Speaker 2: Laurie had a boyfriend, played softball and worked two jobs. 113 00:06:58,680 --> 00:07:01,360 Speaker 1: Part of that was being able to be away from 114 00:07:01,360 --> 00:07:04,400 Speaker 1: home as much as possible. Also I wanted my own 115 00:07:04,440 --> 00:07:07,600 Speaker 1: money because I didn't want to have to rely on 116 00:07:07,640 --> 00:07:09,120 Speaker 1: my parents to give me anything. 117 00:07:09,720 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 2: During this time, their dad, John got remarried. 118 00:07:12,880 --> 00:07:16,960 Speaker 1: It was his fourth marriage. Wanda and I got along 119 00:07:17,000 --> 00:07:20,440 Speaker 1: really well, and I think that she was his best 120 00:07:20,480 --> 00:07:21,760 Speaker 1: wife of all four of them. 121 00:07:22,600 --> 00:07:27,000 Speaker 2: Lorie treasured time with her dad. He never stopped prioritizing fun. 122 00:07:28,120 --> 00:07:31,280 Speaker 1: He would always take us to Baskin Robins for ice cream. 123 00:07:31,960 --> 00:07:34,680 Speaker 1: That was a dad thing. We did it every time 124 00:07:35,080 --> 00:07:37,800 Speaker 1: we were with him. I couldn't even eat ice cream 125 00:07:37,840 --> 00:07:40,840 Speaker 1: because I was lactose intolerant, so I had to get 126 00:07:40,840 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: Sherbert every single time. But I still valued the times 127 00:07:45,040 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: that we would go to Baskin Robins because that was 128 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: time with dad. 129 00:07:50,440 --> 00:07:53,960 Speaker 2: Returning home to her mom in Jerry's house was always challenging. 130 00:07:54,480 --> 00:07:56,960 Speaker 2: Jerry's abuse continued as the girls got older. 131 00:07:57,800 --> 00:08:00,800 Speaker 1: My sister left the house before she graduated high school. 132 00:08:01,520 --> 00:08:04,920 Speaker 1: At some point, her and Jerry got in a huge 133 00:08:04,920 --> 00:08:10,760 Speaker 1: fight and she basically ran away and left. My sister 134 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,880 Speaker 1: ended up staying at her friend's house and never coming 135 00:08:13,920 --> 00:08:17,720 Speaker 1: back home. I have had a challenging relationship with my 136 00:08:17,800 --> 00:08:21,160 Speaker 1: mom over the years because of her turning the blind 137 00:08:21,200 --> 00:08:25,120 Speaker 1: eye knowing how Jerry was treating us and still allowing 138 00:08:25,120 --> 00:08:26,080 Speaker 1: it to happen. 139 00:08:26,440 --> 00:08:28,960 Speaker 2: Laurie began to plan what she wanted for her own 140 00:08:29,000 --> 00:08:32,680 Speaker 2: life and what she would do after graduating from high school. 141 00:08:33,520 --> 00:08:37,520 Speaker 1: When I would think about my future in my teen years, 142 00:08:37,960 --> 00:08:41,600 Speaker 1: I didn't have a lot of hopes and dreams. But 143 00:08:42,240 --> 00:08:44,800 Speaker 1: what I did know was that I wanted to be 144 00:08:45,120 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 1: in human resources. That is what I wanted to do 145 00:08:47,840 --> 00:08:51,320 Speaker 1: for a job. And I got that from going to 146 00:08:52,000 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: my first real life interview. When I left that interview, 147 00:08:55,280 --> 00:08:56,720 Speaker 1: I said, I want to be on the other side 148 00:08:56,760 --> 00:08:59,840 Speaker 1: of that. That's what I want to do for my life. 149 00:09:00,480 --> 00:09:03,559 Speaker 2: One day, Laurie was hanging out with her high school boyfriend. 150 00:09:04,360 --> 00:09:07,560 Speaker 1: We had gone to his parents' house and came in 151 00:09:07,600 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: the door and were walking by them. They were watching 152 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:17,160 Speaker 1: TV and they said, Laurie, your dad's on TV. I said, oh, yeah, 153 00:09:17,200 --> 00:09:20,520 Speaker 1: he's on the news a lot, and they said, no, 154 00:09:21,160 --> 00:09:25,319 Speaker 1: you probably want to see this. I'm like, okay, So 155 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:28,320 Speaker 1: I came in. I sat down on their couch and looked. 156 00:09:29,040 --> 00:09:32,720 Speaker 1: The first thing that I saw was my dad handcuffed 157 00:09:33,160 --> 00:09:38,160 Speaker 1: and police officers putting him into the police car. He 158 00:09:38,320 --> 00:09:39,880 Speaker 1: was being arrested for arsin. 159 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:45,440 Speaker 2: Laurie stared at the TV in shock. 160 00:09:46,200 --> 00:09:51,199 Speaker 1: I was completely confused. What, No, he's an arson investigator. 161 00:09:51,520 --> 00:09:55,679 Speaker 1: He's not doing arsin? How ludicris? What are they doing? 162 00:09:55,720 --> 00:09:56,960 Speaker 1: They got all their facts wrong. 163 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:01,120 Speaker 2: She called her mom immediately. 164 00:10:01,480 --> 00:10:04,000 Speaker 1: I said, Mom, what's going on? She said, I have 165 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: no idea. I'm seeing what you're seeing. 166 00:10:07,360 --> 00:10:10,199 Speaker 2: Next, she called her dad's wife, Wanda. 167 00:10:10,600 --> 00:10:13,600 Speaker 1: And I said, please, what's going on? And she said, 168 00:10:13,880 --> 00:10:17,160 Speaker 1: this is all a mistake. There is a fireman who 169 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:20,080 Speaker 1: is lighting fires. Your dad knows who it is, but 170 00:10:20,120 --> 00:10:23,600 Speaker 1: it's not him. He just needs to explain that to 171 00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:26,480 Speaker 1: them and he'll clear it up and everything's going to 172 00:10:26,559 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: be fine. 173 00:10:27,760 --> 00:10:28,920 Speaker 2: Laurie exhaled a bit. 174 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:31,959 Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, okay, Well, they've got a copboard. They 175 00:10:31,960 --> 00:10:34,480 Speaker 1: know it's a mistake. It's going to work itself up. 176 00:10:35,880 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 2: John was placed on house arrest while he awaited trial. 177 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 2: Lurie and her sister went to go see him. 178 00:10:42,400 --> 00:10:45,959 Speaker 1: My sister and I went in. He was very quiet. 179 00:10:46,000 --> 00:10:48,720 Speaker 1: He wasn't the dad that we knew. He was quiet, 180 00:10:49,120 --> 00:10:50,719 Speaker 1: didn't talk a lot. 181 00:10:52,720 --> 00:10:55,839 Speaker 2: It was hard to see him struggling like this. Laurie 182 00:10:55,920 --> 00:10:58,600 Speaker 2: hoped they would find the real person behind the fire 183 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:03,080 Speaker 2: soon her dad was at so many crime scenes. Surely 184 00:11:03,160 --> 00:11:05,960 Speaker 2: he had just gotten mixed up in the evidence. He 185 00:11:06,000 --> 00:11:09,400 Speaker 2: dedicated his career to stopping fires. This had to be 186 00:11:09,440 --> 00:11:10,000 Speaker 2: a mistake. 187 00:11:11,240 --> 00:11:13,000 Speaker 1: I had no reason to doubt my dad. He had 188 00:11:13,000 --> 00:11:15,840 Speaker 1: never lied to me ever that I knew of, and 189 00:11:16,040 --> 00:11:18,720 Speaker 1: I had no reason to not trust what he was saying. 190 00:11:20,320 --> 00:11:22,920 Speaker 1: Everything I knew about him supported the fact that he 191 00:11:22,960 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: wouldn't do something like that. 192 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,560 Speaker 2: John prepared for his trial and Laurie and her sister 193 00:11:28,679 --> 00:11:30,160 Speaker 2: went back to their daily lives. 194 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: It really wasn't a big issue for us. We were 195 00:11:35,280 --> 00:11:37,080 Speaker 1: just so confident that it was going to be worked 196 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:39,520 Speaker 1: out that it really was not that intrusive in our 197 00:11:39,600 --> 00:11:41,120 Speaker 1: lives at that point. 198 00:11:41,720 --> 00:11:45,360 Speaker 2: But the whole incident started causing problems. John was the 199 00:11:45,400 --> 00:11:48,120 Speaker 2: one that was supposed to pay for Lori to attend college. 200 00:11:48,840 --> 00:11:51,400 Speaker 1: Now that he was arrested, all his money was going 201 00:11:51,440 --> 00:11:56,120 Speaker 1: towards his legal battle, and I just understood that I 202 00:11:56,240 --> 00:11:58,680 Speaker 1: was on my own. So I worked full time and 203 00:11:58,760 --> 00:12:01,720 Speaker 1: went to college a little bit, but it was too difficult, 204 00:12:01,720 --> 00:12:04,719 Speaker 1: so I ended up quitting community college. 205 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:07,320 Speaker 2: While her dad waited for his trial, Lurie and her 206 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:10,560 Speaker 2: high school boyfriend got married, had a child together and 207 00:12:10,640 --> 00:12:14,400 Speaker 2: moved to Oregon. Then they separated and Laurie moved back 208 00:12:14,400 --> 00:12:17,680 Speaker 2: to California to be closer to her family. She was 209 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:20,560 Speaker 2: in her early twenties and now a single mother to 210 00:12:20,640 --> 00:12:23,679 Speaker 2: her one year old son. When she got settled back 211 00:12:23,679 --> 00:12:29,960 Speaker 2: in California, her dad's trial finally began. John was confident 212 00:12:30,000 --> 00:12:32,400 Speaker 2: he would be acquitted, and he told Laurie it would 213 00:12:32,440 --> 00:12:34,160 Speaker 2: be a waste of her time to sit through the 214 00:12:34,200 --> 00:12:34,920 Speaker 2: whole trial. 215 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:38,160 Speaker 1: My sister and I both wanted to attend the trial 216 00:12:38,520 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: and show that we were in support of him. He 217 00:12:41,440 --> 00:12:42,880 Speaker 1: did not allow us to do. 218 00:12:42,800 --> 00:12:45,559 Speaker 2: That, but there were a couple days where he said 219 00:12:45,640 --> 00:12:47,760 Speaker 2: it would be all right for them to come and 220 00:12:47,800 --> 00:12:48,520 Speaker 2: show support. 221 00:12:49,320 --> 00:12:53,000 Speaker 1: We went to two days of the trial, super boring days, 222 00:12:53,120 --> 00:12:56,760 Speaker 1: Nothing really happened, and that was it. 223 00:13:00,120 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 2: The trial went on for weeks, and for most of 224 00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 2: it Laurie was busy parenting and working full time. 225 00:13:07,120 --> 00:13:09,480 Speaker 1: We didn't know what was going on. We didn't know 226 00:13:09,600 --> 00:13:12,880 Speaker 1: what the evidence was against him. We didn't know pretty 227 00:13:12,920 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 1: much anything at that point. 228 00:13:15,720 --> 00:13:19,200 Speaker 2: This was nineteen ninety two, so she couldn't just search 229 00:13:19,280 --> 00:13:20,880 Speaker 2: the internet for more information. 230 00:13:22,000 --> 00:13:24,120 Speaker 1: There was no way to really know what was going on. 231 00:13:24,679 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: Except the news, of course, when they would do their 232 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,120 Speaker 1: news updates and the drawings of Dad while he was 233 00:13:30,160 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: in the courtroom. 234 00:13:31,480 --> 00:13:35,760 Speaker 2: Whatever anyone asked Laurie about her dad's trial, she was confident. 235 00:13:36,160 --> 00:13:40,000 Speaker 1: My dad's innocent, He's been wrongfully accused, and hopefully he'll 236 00:13:40,040 --> 00:13:40,360 Speaker 1: get out. 237 00:13:41,880 --> 00:13:44,680 Speaker 2: Laurie knew the verdict would be announced on the radio 238 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:46,079 Speaker 2: on her Friday in July. 239 00:13:47,800 --> 00:13:51,080 Speaker 1: I was at work and the only way I could 240 00:13:51,120 --> 00:13:53,680 Speaker 1: find out what was going on was on an AM 241 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,960 Speaker 1: news radio station, a little tiny radio on my desk 242 00:13:57,000 --> 00:13:59,599 Speaker 1: at work. I was listening all afternoon so that I 243 00:13:59,640 --> 00:14:03,360 Speaker 1: could hear hear it. Finally, close to five o'clock they 244 00:14:03,400 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 1: came on and said that they had found him guilty. 245 00:14:06,360 --> 00:14:09,719 Speaker 1: But they said they found him guilty of murder. 246 00:14:11,840 --> 00:14:12,320 Speaker 2: Murder. 247 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:14,920 Speaker 1: I thought he was being tried for Arson. 248 00:14:36,240 --> 00:14:39,960 Speaker 2: When Laurie's dad, John was arrested for Arson, he downplayed 249 00:14:40,000 --> 00:14:43,720 Speaker 2: the charges against him. He was so confident he told 250 00:14:43,760 --> 00:14:47,360 Speaker 2: his daughters not to bother coming to his trial. But 251 00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,920 Speaker 2: when Laurie tuned in to hear the verdict. 252 00:14:50,160 --> 00:14:53,480 Speaker 1: They said they found him guilty of murder. I thought 253 00:14:53,520 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: he was being tried for arson. It was completely shocking 254 00:14:58,600 --> 00:15:02,760 Speaker 1: that it was a murder charge on top of everything else. 255 00:15:03,760 --> 00:15:05,960 Speaker 2: Laurie learned on the radio that her dad had been 256 00:15:05,960 --> 00:15:09,680 Speaker 2: found guilty not only of arson, but of four counts 257 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:13,280 Speaker 2: of first degree murder for four people that died in 258 00:15:13,320 --> 00:15:19,040 Speaker 2: an arson fire. Then the radio report moved on to 259 00:15:19,120 --> 00:15:24,360 Speaker 2: other topics like the weather and politics. But Laurie's world 260 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:25,920 Speaker 2: had just come crashing down. 261 00:15:26,800 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: My brain just could not handle what that all meant. 262 00:15:29,160 --> 00:15:32,120 Speaker 1: At that very moment, I put my head down on 263 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:36,760 Speaker 1: the desk and cried, my dad was gone forever. That 264 00:15:36,880 --> 00:15:39,040 Speaker 1: was it, right there, just in that moment, he was 265 00:15:39,080 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: just taken away like he had died. 266 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,160 Speaker 2: But she wasn't given much time to grieve. 267 00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:52,760 Speaker 1: Within an hour, his attorneys were on the phone calling, saying, 268 00:15:52,800 --> 00:15:55,400 Speaker 1: you need to get to our office tomorrow so that 269 00:15:55,480 --> 00:15:59,360 Speaker 1: we could participate in the sentencing phase and testify for 270 00:15:59,520 --> 00:16:04,040 Speaker 1: him to not get the death penalty, the death penalty. 271 00:16:05,000 --> 00:16:07,920 Speaker 2: As Laurie drove to the attorney's office, her mind spun. 272 00:16:08,840 --> 00:16:11,880 Speaker 2: She was convinced of her dad's innocence with every fiber 273 00:16:11,960 --> 00:16:16,800 Speaker 2: of her being her stepdad Jerry, that's what a bad 274 00:16:16,840 --> 00:16:21,000 Speaker 2: guy was like. Her dad was the complete opposite. He 275 00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,840 Speaker 2: was a hero, a good guy. She didn't just believe 276 00:16:24,840 --> 00:16:27,080 Speaker 2: that she knew that. 277 00:16:27,760 --> 00:16:32,640 Speaker 1: He's innocent, Like, how can this happen? He was wrongfully accused? 278 00:16:33,600 --> 00:16:36,680 Speaker 1: How dare you? It was shocking, but it was more 279 00:16:36,720 --> 00:16:39,640 Speaker 1: shocking that they could put an innocent man behind bars 280 00:16:40,840 --> 00:16:41,360 Speaker 1: right away. 281 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: Luria and her sister agreed to testify in support of 282 00:16:44,520 --> 00:16:47,800 Speaker 2: their dad at his sentencing hearing. With the death penalty 283 00:16:47,840 --> 00:16:50,760 Speaker 2: on the table, the stakes could not be higher. 284 00:16:52,200 --> 00:16:55,040 Speaker 1: We were on the same page, and I kind of 285 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:58,600 Speaker 1: went into I need to save my dad mode. He 286 00:16:58,680 --> 00:17:02,080 Speaker 1: can't get the death penalty. I need to save his life. 287 00:17:02,960 --> 00:17:06,480 Speaker 2: The weight of the sentence hung heavy on Laurie's shoulders. 288 00:17:06,800 --> 00:17:10,200 Speaker 2: She lay awake at night, her mind racing what if 289 00:17:10,240 --> 00:17:12,240 Speaker 2: she couldn't save his life? 290 00:17:12,480 --> 00:17:14,680 Speaker 1: Would I want to be there when they carried out 291 00:17:14,840 --> 00:17:18,119 Speaker 1: the death penalty? Would it be my fault if he 292 00:17:18,400 --> 00:17:20,280 Speaker 1: gets the death penalty? Does that mean I didn't do 293 00:17:20,480 --> 00:17:23,040 Speaker 1: enough or I didn't say the right things? 294 00:17:26,720 --> 00:17:30,720 Speaker 2: Then the day of the sentencing hearing arrived, Laurie, her sister, 295 00:17:30,960 --> 00:17:34,560 Speaker 2: her mom, and her grandparents all stood anxiously in the 296 00:17:34,560 --> 00:17:37,920 Speaker 2: halls of the courthouse, waiting to be called in one 297 00:17:37,960 --> 00:17:39,440 Speaker 2: by one. 298 00:17:39,520 --> 00:17:42,800 Speaker 1: I saw a couple of firemen out there as well, 299 00:17:42,840 --> 00:17:47,240 Speaker 1: and I introduced myself and I asked if they were 300 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:52,040 Speaker 1: there in support of my dad, and they kind of 301 00:17:52,119 --> 00:17:55,440 Speaker 1: had an elusive answer. I thanked them for being there 302 00:17:55,480 --> 00:17:58,720 Speaker 1: and thought that they were supporting the fact that he 303 00:17:58,800 --> 00:18:00,000 Speaker 1: doesn't get the death penalty. 304 00:18:00,920 --> 00:18:03,200 Speaker 2: Then Laurie was called in to testify. 305 00:18:03,560 --> 00:18:06,320 Speaker 1: I can't even describe how nervous I was and shaking. 306 00:18:07,440 --> 00:18:11,200 Speaker 1: I saw Dad off to the side and he didn't 307 00:18:11,200 --> 00:18:16,199 Speaker 1: look at me. He didn't say anything, mouth anything, acted 308 00:18:16,280 --> 00:18:18,480 Speaker 1: like I was a complete stranger. 309 00:18:19,320 --> 00:18:21,680 Speaker 2: Laurie took the stand, his. 310 00:18:21,600 --> 00:18:25,680 Speaker 1: Attorneys asked some questions. I was so nervous that it 311 00:18:26,040 --> 00:18:27,200 Speaker 1: was almost like a blackout. 312 00:18:27,960 --> 00:18:31,040 Speaker 2: A few days later, Wanda called her with the ruling. 313 00:18:31,880 --> 00:18:35,639 Speaker 1: Four people said death penalty and eight people said no. 314 00:18:39,080 --> 00:18:42,560 Speaker 1: He got life in prison without the possibility of pearl. 315 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:47,040 Speaker 1: I felt relieved that he didn't get the death penalty 316 00:18:47,119 --> 00:18:50,160 Speaker 1: because I could still have a relationship with him. 317 00:18:50,600 --> 00:18:53,000 Speaker 2: She tried to hold on to the closeness she felt 318 00:18:53,000 --> 00:18:53,600 Speaker 2: with her dad. 319 00:18:54,520 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: We would go visit him in prison, which was just 320 00:18:59,000 --> 00:19:02,960 Speaker 1: horrific to suddenly be visiting your father in prison and 321 00:19:03,000 --> 00:19:06,040 Speaker 1: bringing my one year old two year old son to 322 00:19:06,119 --> 00:19:07,000 Speaker 1: see him. 323 00:19:07,480 --> 00:19:10,520 Speaker 2: John eventually got transferred to a prison further away from 324 00:19:10,600 --> 00:19:14,800 Speaker 2: Laurie when visiting became too difficult. She continued to write 325 00:19:14,880 --> 00:19:16,760 Speaker 2: letters and he called her often. 326 00:19:17,760 --> 00:19:22,080 Speaker 1: We didn't talk about anything in depth. He always said 327 00:19:22,119 --> 00:19:26,159 Speaker 1: that everything was recorded in jail and that he couldn't 328 00:19:26,200 --> 00:19:29,480 Speaker 1: talk about his case because he was trying to appeal 329 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: it and they would hear everything, so it was very surface. 330 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:36,480 Speaker 1: You know, what are you doing these days? How's your job? 331 00:19:36,560 --> 00:19:37,200 Speaker 1: How's your mom. 332 00:19:38,080 --> 00:19:40,720 Speaker 2: Part of Laurie's identity was being the child of a 333 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:45,719 Speaker 2: wrongfully convicted man. It was a tragedy, a miscarriage of justice, 334 00:19:46,359 --> 00:19:49,639 Speaker 2: and one she was powerless to fix. In the first 335 00:19:49,720 --> 00:19:52,440 Speaker 2: year or two of a sentence, she thought about him 336 00:19:52,520 --> 00:19:56,159 Speaker 2: every day, even from a distance. He was still the 337 00:19:56,240 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 2: thoughtful father she knew and loved. But as the years 338 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:04,119 Speaker 2: asked her dad became resigned. When they were on the phone, 339 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:07,959 Speaker 2: he wouldn't ask about Laurie's life or her kids. He 340 00:20:08,000 --> 00:20:10,160 Speaker 2: mainly called to ask for favors. 341 00:20:11,200 --> 00:20:13,840 Speaker 1: He would ask, can you do this for me? Can 342 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: you do that for me? Can you send me money? 343 00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:19,720 Speaker 1: Contact this person, or write a letter to this person, 344 00:20:20,080 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: or go in the boxes and try to find this page. 345 00:20:23,000 --> 00:20:26,120 Speaker 1: And it's like we didn't have time to do all 346 00:20:26,160 --> 00:20:26,359 Speaker 1: of that. 347 00:20:29,160 --> 00:20:31,119 Speaker 2: Laurie started avoiding his calls. 348 00:20:31,800 --> 00:20:34,119 Speaker 1: I knew it was going to be another request to 349 00:20:34,200 --> 00:20:37,760 Speaker 1: do something for him. It wasn't about how are you doing? 350 00:20:37,920 --> 00:20:39,399 Speaker 1: It was about what he needed. 351 00:20:40,160 --> 00:20:42,720 Speaker 2: The man on the other end of the phone started 352 00:20:42,720 --> 00:20:45,720 Speaker 2: to sound different from the father Laurie had grown up with. 353 00:20:46,720 --> 00:20:50,200 Speaker 2: Her father was selfless and spent his days saving others. 354 00:20:51,040 --> 00:20:54,960 Speaker 2: This man now was selfish and seemed to care only 355 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: about saving himself. It was only then that Laurie began 356 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,639 Speaker 2: to wonder what if she didn't really know her dad. 357 00:21:03,440 --> 00:21:07,119 Speaker 1: I started to feel manipulated by him and feel like 358 00:21:07,359 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: there was more to him. That's when I really said, Okay, 359 00:21:11,040 --> 00:21:12,200 Speaker 1: I'm going to read this book. 360 00:21:13,119 --> 00:21:15,880 Speaker 2: The book it was a novel that her father, John 361 00:21:15,920 --> 00:21:19,679 Speaker 2: wrote before he was arrested, a fictional story about an 362 00:21:19,840 --> 00:21:25,160 Speaker 2: arson investigator who moon lies as a prolific arsonist. Once 363 00:21:25,280 --> 00:21:28,520 Speaker 2: John was arrested, the book became a key piece of 364 00:21:28,560 --> 00:21:29,800 Speaker 2: evidence in his trial. 365 00:21:30,560 --> 00:21:33,679 Speaker 1: Is supposed to be fiction, and they used it in 366 00:21:33,720 --> 00:21:36,520 Speaker 1: his trial, saying it was more like a diary. 367 00:21:37,280 --> 00:21:39,919 Speaker 2: Laurie decided it was time to finally read it. 368 00:21:41,320 --> 00:21:46,320 Speaker 1: I got through the first chapter and I had to 369 00:21:46,320 --> 00:21:50,240 Speaker 1: put it down because every single thing in that chapter 370 00:21:50,400 --> 00:21:54,240 Speaker 1: that I read about, the pictures he had on his walls, 371 00:21:54,400 --> 00:21:57,240 Speaker 1: who he lived with, where we would go visit him 372 00:21:57,359 --> 00:22:04,399 Speaker 1: as kids, everything I could remember as real life. That 373 00:22:04,560 --> 00:22:08,040 Speaker 1: was scary. I thought, if I continue reading this book, 374 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:10,879 Speaker 1: everything I think about my dad can change. 375 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:15,639 Speaker 2: She put the book down. Reading any further felt like 376 00:22:15,680 --> 00:22:19,440 Speaker 2: opening Pandora's box, and for one more year she kept 377 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:24,600 Speaker 2: the lid tightly shut. But then eventually she picked up 378 00:22:24,640 --> 00:22:30,439 Speaker 2: the book again. The main character sets a fire in 379 00:22:30,480 --> 00:22:33,800 Speaker 2: a hardware store. Before he does, he walks through the 380 00:22:33,800 --> 00:22:37,560 Speaker 2: store pretending to be a customer. He overhears a conversation 381 00:22:37,640 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: between grandparents running errands with their grandson. 382 00:22:41,320 --> 00:22:46,600 Speaker 1: The grandmother and grandfather were telling their grandson that if 383 00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,919 Speaker 1: he was good while he was in the store that 384 00:22:49,000 --> 00:22:51,360 Speaker 1: they would take him next door to Baskin Robbin's and 385 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:55,480 Speaker 1: get ice cream. It was said in his book that 386 00:22:55,800 --> 00:23:01,440 Speaker 1: the child said, I want midchip ice cream. 387 00:23:01,800 --> 00:23:04,439 Speaker 2: The fire in the hardware store that John wrote about 388 00:23:04,480 --> 00:23:07,800 Speaker 2: in his book was hauntingly similar to the nineteen eighty 389 00:23:07,840 --> 00:23:11,399 Speaker 2: four fire that killed four people in a hardware store 390 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 2: in Pasadena, the one John investigated. But when the police 391 00:23:16,480 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 2: Department started investigating his connection to a string of fires 392 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,760 Speaker 2: throughout California. They returned to interviews with the survivors of 393 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:28,399 Speaker 2: the fire, looking for any details that might show John 394 00:23:29,040 --> 00:23:32,040 Speaker 2: was at the scene before the fire broke out. 395 00:23:33,119 --> 00:23:36,920 Speaker 1: When they talked to the grandfather after the fire, they 396 00:23:37,040 --> 00:23:41,000 Speaker 1: asked him about that scenario, and he said, we promised 397 00:23:41,040 --> 00:23:43,840 Speaker 1: we would go next door to Baskin Robbins to get 398 00:23:43,840 --> 00:24:10,399 Speaker 1: his favorite mintschip ice cream. 399 00:24:11,160 --> 00:24:14,679 Speaker 2: When Laurie's father, John was arrested for arson, she was 400 00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:18,560 Speaker 2: sure it was a mistake. He was an arson investigator 401 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:23,000 Speaker 2: and had dedicated his life to stopping these tragedies. He 402 00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:26,680 Speaker 2: pled guilty in court to a lighter sentence, but always 403 00:24:26,720 --> 00:24:31,880 Speaker 2: maintained that he was innocent. Laurie believed him, but then 404 00:24:32,119 --> 00:24:35,639 Speaker 2: years later she decided to read his book, and what 405 00:24:35,760 --> 00:24:37,240 Speaker 2: she read scared her. 406 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:42,600 Speaker 1: There's information in there that other people would not have known. 407 00:24:44,520 --> 00:24:46,119 Speaker 1: I think that he had to be there in some 408 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,960 Speaker 1: of those circumstances. 409 00:24:49,800 --> 00:24:53,159 Speaker 2: Could this be true? Laurie needed to know more. 410 00:24:54,560 --> 00:24:57,760 Speaker 1: I read every piece of information I could find on him. 411 00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,639 Speaker 1: I watched every show that I could get my hands on, 412 00:25:01,000 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: newspaper articles, anything that had any information about his trial 413 00:25:06,440 --> 00:25:07,200 Speaker 1: or crimes. 414 00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:11,120 Speaker 2: But the most important evidence she found was in her 415 00:25:11,160 --> 00:25:12,840 Speaker 2: own garage. 416 00:25:13,000 --> 00:25:16,359 Speaker 1: We had boxes of stuff from the trial in our garages, 417 00:25:16,960 --> 00:25:19,440 Speaker 1: and I started to investigate that she. 418 00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:22,760 Speaker 2: Never really dug into those boxes. But when she started 419 00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:26,080 Speaker 2: combing through them, she found something that made her stomach 420 00:25:26,160 --> 00:25:29,520 Speaker 2: drop a videotape made by her dad. 421 00:25:33,880 --> 00:25:37,840 Speaker 1: He had videoed places that were on fire, which was 422 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:42,800 Speaker 1: not uncommon for a narsional investigator because they analyzed fires. 423 00:25:43,200 --> 00:25:46,520 Speaker 1: The difference in these videos was that he was videotaping 424 00:25:46,840 --> 00:25:51,480 Speaker 1: the place that was on fire before it ever caught 425 00:25:51,480 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 1: on fire, and then after while it was engulfed in flames. 426 00:26:00,280 --> 00:26:04,000 Speaker 2: In June and nineteen ninety, temperatures in Glendale, California, reached 427 00:26:04,000 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 2: over one hundred degrees. The hills that wrapped around the 428 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:11,040 Speaker 2: city grew dry, and then on June twenty seventh, a 429 00:26:11,080 --> 00:26:14,399 Speaker 2: brush fire broke out in the hills. It picked up speed, 430 00:26:14,520 --> 00:26:21,600 Speaker 2: quickly tearing into neighborhoods. Residents rushed to evacuate. The fire 431 00:26:21,640 --> 00:26:25,639 Speaker 2: took a devastating toll. It destroyed forty six homes and 432 00:26:25,720 --> 00:26:30,520 Speaker 2: damaged twenty others. Altogether, the brush fire caused fifty million 433 00:26:30,600 --> 00:26:34,480 Speaker 2: dollars in damage. John hurried to the scene to investigate 434 00:26:34,480 --> 00:26:38,639 Speaker 2: the cause, but during his trial it was revealed that 435 00:26:38,760 --> 00:26:41,880 Speaker 2: John was at the scene before the fire started. 436 00:26:43,920 --> 00:26:48,359 Speaker 1: He had a recording that showed the hillside prior to 437 00:26:48,640 --> 00:26:54,880 Speaker 1: being on fire, just calm, quiet, settled, and then right 438 00:26:54,920 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: after that it was the recording of the same exact spot, 439 00:27:00,280 --> 00:27:03,040 Speaker 1: the same exact house burning to the ground. 440 00:27:04,720 --> 00:27:07,520 Speaker 2: For over a decade, Laurie believed her dad when he 441 00:27:07,560 --> 00:27:10,600 Speaker 2: said he was innocent. When she was growing up with 442 00:27:10,640 --> 00:27:14,280 Speaker 2: an abusive stepfather, her dad was a place of refuge. 443 00:27:14,760 --> 00:27:18,280 Speaker 2: He was the good guy. That's why she never believed 444 00:27:18,320 --> 00:27:22,359 Speaker 2: the charges. But what was on this videotape felt less 445 00:27:22,440 --> 00:27:25,200 Speaker 2: like evidence and more like proof. 446 00:27:27,119 --> 00:27:29,199 Speaker 1: It just doesn't make any sense why he would have 447 00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:33,480 Speaker 1: recorded that beforehand unless he was the one that started 448 00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:37,000 Speaker 1: that fire. So I wrote him a letter and said, hey, 449 00:27:37,400 --> 00:27:39,320 Speaker 1: I'm starting to feel like you did these things. I 450 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,640 Speaker 1: really need you to tell me and convince me that 451 00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:46,800 Speaker 1: you didn't, or else I'm done with you. I expected 452 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:51,800 Speaker 1: him to reply with a pleading statement for me to 453 00:27:52,720 --> 00:27:56,680 Speaker 1: believe that he wouldn't do something like that. That's fully 454 00:27:56,760 --> 00:28:01,320 Speaker 1: what I expected, that's what I wanted. And he wrote 455 00:28:01,359 --> 00:28:04,679 Speaker 1: back to me and said when I get out of jail, 456 00:28:05,880 --> 00:28:07,480 Speaker 1: you'll know how innocent I am. 457 00:28:08,840 --> 00:28:11,840 Speaker 2: For the first time in her life, Laurie believed her 458 00:28:11,880 --> 00:28:15,200 Speaker 2: dad was guilty. His letter was the final confirmation. 459 00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:19,919 Speaker 1: I decided I did not need him and his manipulation 460 00:28:20,040 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 1: in my life anymore. He did horrible things, and I 461 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:25,000 Speaker 1: don't need to have this horrible man in my life. 462 00:28:25,720 --> 00:28:28,400 Speaker 2: The man who had set these fires and watched them 463 00:28:28,440 --> 00:28:31,000 Speaker 2: burn felt like a complete stranger. 464 00:28:31,480 --> 00:28:34,840 Speaker 1: You start to second guess everything your whole life. 465 00:28:35,720 --> 00:28:39,680 Speaker 2: She flipped through childhood memories, trying to find anything that 466 00:28:39,720 --> 00:28:42,800 Speaker 2: could have been a warning sign, but she kept coming 467 00:28:42,840 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 2: up empty. 468 00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 1: He was always very, very cautious with fire. He always 469 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:55,320 Speaker 1: made sure our smoke detectors were working. He would always 470 00:28:55,360 --> 00:28:59,239 Speaker 1: be careful with the campfire when we were camping, just 471 00:28:59,280 --> 00:29:02,920 Speaker 1: like you would expected a fireman to be. There was 472 00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:08,000 Speaker 1: never anything related to fire or my dad's relationship to 473 00:29:08,040 --> 00:29:10,840 Speaker 1: fire that would have given me any indication that he 474 00:29:10,880 --> 00:29:12,320 Speaker 1: would do something like this. 475 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,200 Speaker 2: Being a firefighter and an arson investigator was so central 476 00:29:17,240 --> 00:29:21,720 Speaker 2: to John's identity. It was his passion his community and 477 00:29:21,760 --> 00:29:24,760 Speaker 2: to his kids. It was what made him a hero. 478 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:29,960 Speaker 2: If that was all a lie, was anything about him real. 479 00:29:31,360 --> 00:29:34,200 Speaker 1: Did he really even love me? You know, I'm not sure. 480 00:29:34,920 --> 00:29:38,000 Speaker 1: I came across a picture of him holding me when 481 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:42,000 Speaker 1: I was a baby, and I thought, oh, he did 482 00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:45,000 Speaker 1: love me at some point. You know. That's kind of 483 00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:47,840 Speaker 1: how I felt about it afterwards, that everything was just 484 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:49,320 Speaker 1: a lie. 485 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:51,520 Speaker 2: She thought back to the time that her dad had 486 00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:54,400 Speaker 2: made her and her sister hide in the car while 487 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 2: he arrested someone, how he had pulled out his gun 488 00:29:57,840 --> 00:30:01,240 Speaker 2: and stepped out onto the side of the highway. Had 489 00:30:01,240 --> 00:30:06,360 Speaker 2: he really arrested someone or had something else happened? Everything 490 00:30:06,480 --> 00:30:11,560 Speaker 2: was murkier now. As hard as it was to face 491 00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:14,360 Speaker 2: the truth about her dad, Laurie wanted to see the 492 00:30:14,400 --> 00:30:17,480 Speaker 2: full picture of him, so she finished reading his novel, 493 00:30:18,160 --> 00:30:20,280 Speaker 2: and what she read made her sick. 494 00:30:21,600 --> 00:30:25,480 Speaker 1: In his book went into heavy detail about how the 495 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:32,600 Speaker 1: firefighter who was lighting the fires was sexually aroused by fire. So, 496 00:30:32,760 --> 00:30:36,400 Speaker 1: of course, when I'm reading this book, I'm thinking of 497 00:30:36,480 --> 00:30:42,560 Speaker 1: my dad being that character and being aroused by fire. 498 00:30:43,200 --> 00:30:51,040 Speaker 1: It just was pretty disgusting, really to think about that way. 499 00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 2: For some arsonists, like John, there is a sexual component 500 00:30:54,880 --> 00:30:56,240 Speaker 2: to their crimes. 501 00:30:56,520 --> 00:31:01,120 Speaker 1: I also learned in the interviews with him his ex wives, 502 00:31:01,960 --> 00:31:08,840 Speaker 1: there definitely was sexually deviant behavior in his past that 503 00:31:08,960 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: fits the arsonist role. 504 00:31:14,080 --> 00:31:18,280 Speaker 2: Some of John's behavior seems almost contradictory in some ways. 505 00:31:18,560 --> 00:31:21,360 Speaker 2: He appears to be proud of his crimes. He filmed them, 506 00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:25,840 Speaker 2: wrote about them, insisted as an investigator that these were 507 00:31:25,880 --> 00:31:29,880 Speaker 2: not accidental fires. He wanted everyone to know this was 508 00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:34,239 Speaker 2: arson But once he was caught, he never admitted to 509 00:31:34,280 --> 00:31:35,160 Speaker 2: what he had done. 510 00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:39,440 Speaker 1: He's been in prison thirty five years now, but he 511 00:31:39,520 --> 00:31:40,800 Speaker 1: still says he's innocent. 512 00:31:41,720 --> 00:31:43,200 Speaker 2: Here's what Laurie thinks about this. 513 00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: It was kind of a cat and mouse game for him, 514 00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:49,440 Speaker 1: I could do this and not get caught type of thing, 515 00:31:50,240 --> 00:31:53,760 Speaker 1: and him writing the book was yet just another example 516 00:31:53,920 --> 00:31:56,960 Speaker 1: of that, putting it in their face that he did 517 00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:58,520 Speaker 1: those but isn't getting caught. 518 00:32:00,000 --> 00:32:03,000 Speaker 2: Over the course of thirty years, John Orr set an 519 00:32:03,120 --> 00:32:08,160 Speaker 2: estimated two thousand fires across California. He burned down countless 520 00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:12,920 Speaker 2: homes and devastated ecosystems. He caused millions of dollars in 521 00:32:12,960 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 2: property damage, and worst of all, his fires took four lives. 522 00:32:18,760 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 2: John Orr is widely considered to be the most prolific 523 00:32:22,120 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 2: arsonist in American history. 524 00:32:24,800 --> 00:32:29,440 Speaker 1: After he was arrested the number of fires in Glendale 525 00:32:29,480 --> 00:32:32,680 Speaker 1: and the surrounding cities went down by seventy five percent. 526 00:32:33,760 --> 00:32:34,680 Speaker 1: That's pretty telling. 527 00:32:35,760 --> 00:32:39,360 Speaker 2: In an area like southern California, where one rogue match 528 00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,280 Speaker 2: can cause large scale, irreversible damage, that number is especially chilling. 529 00:32:46,960 --> 00:32:49,080 Speaker 1: I can't even put into words what it's like to 530 00:32:49,120 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 1: hear that my dad is considered the most prolific serial 531 00:32:52,920 --> 00:33:00,720 Speaker 1: arsonists of all time. It's disgusting, it's horrible, it's unbelievable. 532 00:33:02,120 --> 00:33:08,720 Speaker 1: He betrayed the fire industry, He betrayed his friends, his family, 533 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:12,960 Speaker 1: He betrayed everyone by letting us think that he was 534 00:33:13,120 --> 00:33:19,040 Speaker 1: one person, this hero, respected firefighter, arson investigator who rose 535 00:33:19,080 --> 00:33:23,280 Speaker 1: through the ranks to being a monster that started all 536 00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:26,360 Speaker 1: of these fires in which people have died. 537 00:33:31,000 --> 00:33:34,360 Speaker 2: As to how investigators finally figured out that it was 538 00:33:34,480 --> 00:33:39,480 Speaker 2: John lighting these fires, it started with a fingerprint. In 539 00:33:39,560 --> 00:33:43,959 Speaker 2: nineteen eighty seven, firefighters found a fire starting device. It 540 00:33:44,000 --> 00:33:47,800 Speaker 2: was made from a cigarette matches and notebook paper, and 541 00:33:47,960 --> 00:33:51,360 Speaker 2: on the notebook paper was a fingerprint. But it would 542 00:33:51,400 --> 00:33:55,480 Speaker 2: take a few years for fingerprinting technology to evolve enough 543 00:33:55,520 --> 00:34:00,120 Speaker 2: for investigators to tie that fingerprint to John. In the meantime, 544 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:05,720 Speaker 2: something strange was happening. A series of fires was breaking 545 00:34:05,720 --> 00:34:09,920 Speaker 2: out across California, with a bizarre element tying them together. 546 00:34:10,800 --> 00:34:16,280 Speaker 2: They all broke out near arson investigation conferences. Cross referencing 547 00:34:16,320 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 2: lists of attendees to these conferences generated a list of 548 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:25,440 Speaker 2: key suspects, and among them was John. Finally, in nineteen 549 00:34:25,480 --> 00:34:29,799 Speaker 2: ninety one, new fingerprint technology was available and investigators were 550 00:34:29,840 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: able to trace the fingerprint from the notebook paper back 551 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:38,040 Speaker 2: to John Orr. But the fingerprint still wasn't enough. Maybe 552 00:34:38,120 --> 00:34:41,760 Speaker 2: John had just mishandled the evidence. They needed more proof, 553 00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,520 Speaker 2: so they placed a tracking device in his car, and 554 00:34:45,560 --> 00:34:48,880 Speaker 2: then John's car was tracked to a location of an 555 00:34:49,000 --> 00:34:56,840 Speaker 2: arson fire and he was arrested. The investigation revealed eerie 556 00:34:56,920 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 2: warning signs from John's childhood. 557 00:35:00,160 --> 00:35:02,479 Speaker 1: He was lighting fires as young as eight years old. 558 00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:06,880 Speaker 1: My dad, in my mind, was troubled since birth. 559 00:35:07,520 --> 00:35:10,319 Speaker 2: Laurie has been forced to rewrite the entire story of 560 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:14,880 Speaker 2: who her father is, but John himself has never admitted 561 00:35:14,880 --> 00:35:15,400 Speaker 2: the truth. 562 00:35:16,440 --> 00:35:19,799 Speaker 1: It is something that haunts me, and I pray that 563 00:35:19,960 --> 00:35:23,080 Speaker 1: he will leave a note or a letter or something 564 00:35:23,320 --> 00:35:27,120 Speaker 1: when he is on his deathbed that puts closure to it. 565 00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 2: To come to terms with her dad's actions, Laurie went 566 00:35:31,239 --> 00:35:31,760 Speaker 2: to therapy. 567 00:35:32,600 --> 00:35:35,360 Speaker 1: The therapist looked at me and he said, your dad's 568 00:35:35,360 --> 00:35:38,719 Speaker 1: a sociopath and you need to grieve him like he's dead. 569 00:35:39,920 --> 00:35:43,520 Speaker 1: And that's exactly what I did. I grieved him like 570 00:35:43,560 --> 00:35:47,680 Speaker 1: he was dead and put him out of mind, out 571 00:35:47,719 --> 00:35:51,239 Speaker 1: of sight, and I let that part of my life go. 572 00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:55,640 Speaker 2: When Laurie was thirty five, she had a heart attack. 573 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:58,600 Speaker 2: She had to take time away from work to recover. 574 00:35:59,680 --> 00:36:03,120 Speaker 1: Once I went on disability, I had a really challenging time, 575 00:36:04,000 --> 00:36:07,080 Speaker 1: and so I somehow got the idea to write a book, 576 00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: and that's just what I needed At that moment. 577 00:36:11,800 --> 00:36:14,960 Speaker 2: Laurie reached out to Frank Girardo, a journalist who'd covered 578 00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:18,279 Speaker 2: her dad's crimes. She asked him if you would be 579 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:20,480 Speaker 2: interested in co authoring the book. 580 00:36:20,239 --> 00:36:24,960 Speaker 1: With her back when my dad was arrested, Frank interviewed 581 00:36:25,000 --> 00:36:29,719 Speaker 1: my dad and with his familiarity with the case, he 582 00:36:29,840 --> 00:36:31,560 Speaker 1: was the perfect person to do this with me. 583 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:36,359 Speaker 2: While researching and writing the book, she decided to get 584 00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:38,760 Speaker 2: in touch with the mother of the child who died 585 00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:40,520 Speaker 2: in the fire at the hardware store. 586 00:36:41,320 --> 00:36:44,200 Speaker 1: I couldn't get that family off my mind. The fact 587 00:36:44,239 --> 00:36:48,400 Speaker 1: that she lost her mom and her son in the 588 00:36:48,440 --> 00:36:51,799 Speaker 1: same fire that day. I just felt compelled that I 589 00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,960 Speaker 1: had to apologize on his behalf. She did tell me 590 00:36:56,040 --> 00:36:58,279 Speaker 1: that she was able to move on and find joy 591 00:36:58,280 --> 00:37:00,520 Speaker 1: in her life and now she has grank kids and 592 00:37:00,920 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: you know, things like that, and she recommended that I 593 00:37:04,880 --> 00:37:07,960 Speaker 1: do the same, to move on from the tragedy that 594 00:37:08,120 --> 00:37:10,880 Speaker 1: was my life and to make the best out of 595 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:11,759 Speaker 1: my life that I can. 596 00:37:12,760 --> 00:37:14,960 Speaker 2: The process of writing the book was a way for 597 00:37:15,080 --> 00:37:18,800 Speaker 2: Lorie to reckon with her part in the story. 598 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:24,920 Speaker 1: I wanted people to know that I now think he's guilty. 599 00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,759 Speaker 1: If he's telling you he's innocent, he's not, let me 600 00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:33,800 Speaker 1: assure you he's not, and in some way to acknowledge 601 00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:38,000 Speaker 1: that I probably had no business testifying so he wouldn't 602 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: get the death penalty. That was important for me to 603 00:37:41,320 --> 00:37:44,480 Speaker 1: put out there and have people know, because I only 604 00:37:44,560 --> 00:37:47,960 Speaker 1: knew what I knew at the time, and I felt 605 00:37:48,000 --> 00:37:51,799 Speaker 1: really guilty for doing that and sparing his life. He 606 00:37:51,840 --> 00:37:54,000 Speaker 1: should have never put me on the stand. He should 607 00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,960 Speaker 1: have never allowed his kids to do that or go 608 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:56,319 Speaker 1: through that. 609 00:37:57,520 --> 00:38:02,600 Speaker 2: Lourie's book is called Burned Murder and a Daughter's Nightmare. 610 00:38:04,320 --> 00:38:07,040 Speaker 2: Her father's crimes will always be a part of her story, 611 00:38:07,560 --> 00:38:08,920 Speaker 2: but they are not the whole story. 612 00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,640 Speaker 1: Only with maturity, do you see all the ways that 613 00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:16,600 Speaker 1: your life was shaped. I've had lots of issues in 614 00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,239 Speaker 1: my life that probably stem from having issues with my 615 00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:24,960 Speaker 1: dad and not having him there to protect me or 616 00:38:25,440 --> 00:38:28,040 Speaker 1: be a role model to me. But I will never 617 00:38:28,080 --> 00:38:30,279 Speaker 1: stop trying to be happy no matter what, till the 618 00:38:30,360 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: day I die. That's what we're here for. 619 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:35,880 Speaker 2: Laurie has built a beautiful life for herself. 620 00:38:36,520 --> 00:38:39,880 Speaker 1: What I'm doing now is just going through life raising 621 00:38:39,880 --> 00:38:43,840 Speaker 1: my kids, trying to be as happy as I possibly 622 00:38:43,920 --> 00:38:47,759 Speaker 1: can be in the time that I have. I have 623 00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:52,960 Speaker 1: absolutely wonderful kids. I have four of them, three are adults. 624 00:38:53,120 --> 00:38:54,280 Speaker 1: One I'm still raising. 625 00:38:55,239 --> 00:38:58,200 Speaker 2: Laurie's chosen to be honest with them about who their 626 00:38:58,280 --> 00:38:59,120 Speaker 2: grandfather is. 627 00:39:00,120 --> 00:39:03,440 Speaker 1: As young as they were saying mom, where's your dad 628 00:39:03,600 --> 00:39:06,600 Speaker 1: and stuff like that, I would answer it age appropriately. 629 00:39:07,600 --> 00:39:10,799 Speaker 2: When Laurie's son was in high school, his teacher announced 630 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:13,960 Speaker 2: that their next assignment was to write a paper about 631 00:39:13,960 --> 00:39:16,280 Speaker 2: the serial arsonist John Orr. 632 00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,239 Speaker 1: He raised his hand and said, teacher, that's my grandfather. 633 00:39:19,680 --> 00:39:22,040 Speaker 1: And she's like, oh, well, you don't have to do this. 634 00:39:22,560 --> 00:39:25,600 Speaker 1: You don't have to do the work, and he's like, no, 635 00:39:25,719 --> 00:39:28,160 Speaker 1: I'll do it. He's a stranger to me. I'll do it. 636 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:31,239 Speaker 1: And I told his teacher if she wanted me to 637 00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:34,400 Speaker 1: answer any questions for them, that I'd be happy to 638 00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:36,560 Speaker 1: do that, And so she emailed me questions from the 639 00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:38,480 Speaker 1: students and then I emailed it back to them. 640 00:39:40,040 --> 00:39:43,640 Speaker 2: We end every weekly episode with the same question, why 641 00:39:43,640 --> 00:39:45,239 Speaker 2: do you want to share your story. 642 00:39:46,400 --> 00:39:49,200 Speaker 1: When all this went down with my dad? The fire 643 00:39:49,239 --> 00:39:52,399 Speaker 1: community is very close knit and takes care of each other. 644 00:39:53,600 --> 00:39:58,879 Speaker 1: Not one person ever asked how we were doing, if 645 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:03,600 Speaker 1: we were okay, we needed anything, So it always made 646 00:40:03,640 --> 00:40:08,759 Speaker 1: me feel like we were guilty by association. And I 647 00:40:08,800 --> 00:40:12,919 Speaker 1: want people to know that we're victims too. I don't 648 00:40:12,960 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: want to take the place of the actual victims, but 649 00:40:16,040 --> 00:40:20,000 Speaker 1: we are victims that were affected by that crime, and 650 00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,120 Speaker 1: my dad was taken away immediately from me, just as 651 00:40:25,200 --> 00:40:28,879 Speaker 1: if he had died. I don't know why I keep 652 00:40:28,920 --> 00:40:32,239 Speaker 1: doing this. After I do it, when we hang up, 653 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:34,360 Speaker 1: then I go, oh, I think I did a good job. 654 00:40:34,480 --> 00:40:37,040 Speaker 1: I think I conveyed the messages that I wanted to convey. 655 00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,879 Speaker 1: But I didn't sleep well last night and I won't 656 00:40:40,920 --> 00:40:44,040 Speaker 1: sleep well tonight because this is in my brain. That's 657 00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,719 Speaker 1: why I have to very strategically put it out of 658 00:40:46,800 --> 00:40:49,600 Speaker 1: my mind and my head because it does affect me 659 00:40:49,840 --> 00:40:52,839 Speaker 1: when I go back and visit it. But I do 660 00:40:52,880 --> 00:40:55,720 Speaker 1: think there's important messages that I'm putting out there. 661 00:41:00,400 --> 00:41:03,160 Speaker 2: This is our last Betrayal Weekly episode for a little while. 662 00:41:03,480 --> 00:41:06,040 Speaker 2: We'll be back in January with a whole new season 663 00:41:06,040 --> 00:41:09,880 Speaker 2: of Betrayal. It'll be one story told over multiple weeks, 664 00:41:10,400 --> 00:41:13,600 Speaker 2: and after that we have more Betrayal Weekly episodes coming. 665 00:41:14,600 --> 00:41:18,040 Speaker 2: Right now, we're actively working on news stories, so if 666 00:41:18,080 --> 00:41:20,320 Speaker 2: you have a story you'd like to share on the podcast, 667 00:41:20,760 --> 00:41:24,040 Speaker 2: write to us at betrayalpod at gmail dot com. In 668 00:41:24,080 --> 00:41:27,239 Speaker 2: the meantime, we hope you enjoy your holiday season. We'll 669 00:41:27,280 --> 00:41:32,320 Speaker 2: see you in the new year. To access our newsletter, 670 00:41:32,520 --> 00:41:36,279 Speaker 2: view additional content, and connect with the Betrayal community, join 671 00:41:36,360 --> 00:41:40,200 Speaker 2: our substack at Betrayal dot substack dot com. We're grateful 672 00:41:40,239 --> 00:41:42,920 Speaker 2: for your support. One way to show support is by 673 00:41:42,920 --> 00:41:46,200 Speaker 2: subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts, and don't forget 674 00:41:46,200 --> 00:41:48,840 Speaker 2: to rate and review Betrayal. Five star reviews go a 675 00:41:48,880 --> 00:41:52,440 Speaker 2: long way. A big thank you to all of our listeners. 676 00:41:53,000 --> 00:41:55,800 Speaker 2: Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a division of 677 00:41:55,840 --> 00:41:59,600 Speaker 2: Glass Entertainment Group and partnership with iHeart Podcasts. The show 678 00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,280 Speaker 2: is exact secutive, produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason, 679 00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:07,040 Speaker 2: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning. This episode was 680 00:42:07,080 --> 00:42:10,319 Speaker 2: written and produced by Olivia Hewitt and Monique Leboard, with 681 00:42:10,400 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 2: additional production from Ben Fetterman, casting support from Curry Richmond. 682 00:42:15,719 --> 00:42:19,480 Speaker 2: Our iHeart team is Ali Perry and Jessica Krincheck. Audio 683 00:42:19,640 --> 00:42:23,560 Speaker 2: editing and mixing by Matt Delvecchio, Additional audio editing by 684 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:28,960 Speaker 2: Tanner Robbins. Betrayal's theme composed by Oliver Bains. Music library 685 00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,000 Speaker 2: provided by my Music and For more podcasts from iHeart, 686 00:42:33,160 --> 00:42:36,520 Speaker 2: visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get 687 00:42:36,520 --> 00:42:41,919 Speaker 2: your podcasts.