1
00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,720
Speaker 1: Topics featured in this episode may be disturbing to some listeners.

2
00:00:04,440 --> 00:00:08,880
Speaker 1: Please take care while listening. Hi all, we have some

3
00:00:09,000 --> 00:00:13,200
Speaker 1: exciting news to share. ABC Studios has turned Betrayal Season

4
00:00:13,240 --> 00:00:17,000
Speaker 1: one into a documentary. You will get to meet the

5
00:00:17,040 --> 00:00:19,840
Speaker 1: people involved in season one, and you'll hear from people

6
00:00:19,880 --> 00:00:23,160
Speaker 1: who have never spoken before, and you get to see

7
00:00:23,200 --> 00:00:26,360
Speaker 1: where the whole story took place. We are so proud

8
00:00:26,400 --> 00:00:29,000
Speaker 1: and excited to share it with you all. You can

9
00:00:29,040 --> 00:00:32,760
Speaker 1: start streaming it on Hulu on July eleventh. But now

10
00:00:33,159 --> 00:00:37,240
Speaker 1: let's jump into the episode. Do an Internet search any

11
00:00:37,280 --> 00:00:40,640
Speaker 1: day of the week for people who were arrested for possessing, producing,

12
00:00:40,760 --> 00:00:44,559
Speaker 1: or downloading child sexual abuse material. You'll find something like this.

13
00:00:45,200 --> 00:00:49,320
Speaker 1: Homeland Security investigators say they arrested this Walt Disney World

14
00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,120
Speaker 1: employee on child pornography.

15
00:00:51,200 --> 00:00:55,000
Speaker 2: Charges Forty one year olds facing three counts of distributing

16
00:00:55,120 --> 00:00:55,960
Speaker 2: child pornography.

17
00:00:56,040 --> 00:00:58,720
Speaker 3: Elementary school teachers also a youth past so accused of

18
00:00:58,800 --> 00:01:01,360
Speaker 3: using a cell phone sex crimes involving children.

19
00:01:01,400 --> 00:01:04,919
Speaker 4: Police officers behind bars this morning charges possession of child pornography.

20
00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:07,560
Speaker 3: A stunning turn for a mayor in his second term

21
00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:08,000
Speaker 3: in office.

22
00:01:08,280 --> 00:01:11,360
Speaker 5: We'll lease say he both possessed and distributed.

23
00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:14,520
Speaker 4: Images and videos of hens or while discributing child pornography

24
00:01:14,520 --> 00:01:17,520
Speaker 4: on various those films, admitted I can take her that.

25
00:01:19,720 --> 00:01:23,679
Speaker 1: Knock that it translates reveal multiple child phenomopy filed.

26
00:01:24,120 --> 00:01:26,280
Speaker 6: You never know what kind of person is like how

27
00:01:26,319 --> 00:01:28,120
Speaker 6: a person behaves on the closed doors.

28
00:01:28,560 --> 00:01:33,920
Speaker 1: I'm Andrea Gunning and this is Betrayal Episode eight, One

29
00:01:33,959 --> 00:01:39,600
Speaker 1: Step at a Time. It's been about a year since

30
00:01:39,600 --> 00:01:42,759
Speaker 1: Ashley Lynton first wrote into us at Betrayalpod at gmail

31
00:01:42,840 --> 00:01:47,400
Speaker 1: dot com. That's how this all started. One email, then

32
00:01:47,440 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: another and another that opened my eyes to the crime

33
00:01:51,480 --> 00:01:55,440
Speaker 1: of sexual exploitation of children that's happening everywhere, and the

34
00:01:55,520 --> 00:02:01,640
Speaker 1: shocking reality that those involved are community leaders, friends, neighbors,

35
00:02:02,160 --> 00:02:06,880
Speaker 1: loved ones and partners. Three courageous women, Ashley, Mandy and

36
00:02:07,080 --> 00:02:10,239
Speaker 1: Erin told us their story so that we might better

37
00:02:10,400 --> 00:02:13,680
Speaker 1: understand the reality of what our families and our kids

38
00:02:13,720 --> 00:02:19,280
Speaker 1: are facing. Now here's something I haven't told you. A

39
00:02:19,360 --> 00:02:22,280
Speaker 1: lot of people urged us not to tell this story.

40
00:02:23,000 --> 00:02:25,960
Speaker 1: They said, nobody wants to hear about this topic. It's

41
00:02:26,000 --> 00:02:29,880
Speaker 1: a loser for a podcast. Some were friends and some

42
00:02:30,160 --> 00:02:34,120
Speaker 1: are in the business. But you've proved them wrong. You

43
00:02:34,320 --> 00:02:39,000
Speaker 1: stayed with us, My boss backed us, and iHeart said yes,

44
00:02:39,200 --> 00:02:43,040
Speaker 1: we believe in this. Thank you all from the bottom

45
00:02:43,080 --> 00:02:46,400
Speaker 1: of my heart. This is the last episode of the

46
00:02:46,480 --> 00:02:49,239
Speaker 1: regular season, so I wanted to go back to the

47
00:02:49,280 --> 00:02:52,560
Speaker 1: women who made this whole thing happen. I spoke with Ashley,

48
00:02:52,600 --> 00:02:55,400
Speaker 1: who lives outside Salt Lake City, Utah, and Erin, who

49
00:02:55,480 --> 00:02:58,880
Speaker 1: is near Fresno, California. Both took the bold step of

50
00:02:59,000 --> 00:03:02,679
Speaker 1: turning their husbands into law enforcement upon finding seesam in

51
00:03:02,760 --> 00:03:05,799
Speaker 1: their homes, knowing they were ending life as they knew it.

52
00:03:07,120 --> 00:03:09,480
Speaker 1: Erin lived with her husband, Joel, and her two kids

53
00:03:09,560 --> 00:03:12,560
Speaker 1: outside of a military base in Texas. She fled to

54
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:17,760
Speaker 1: California after her discovery. Ashley's husband, Jason, was also filming

55
00:03:17,800 --> 00:03:21,000
Speaker 1: her daughter a Veya and was ultimately charged with voyeurism.

56
00:03:23,360 --> 00:03:25,240
Speaker 1: Now that they have been a part of the series

57
00:03:25,440 --> 00:03:30,160
Speaker 1: and have gone public, we wanted to reconnect. So guys,

58
00:03:30,240 --> 00:03:33,040
Speaker 1: I wanted us to get together today to talk about

59
00:03:33,040 --> 00:03:35,080
Speaker 1: the season and see how you guys are doing. After

60
00:03:35,200 --> 00:03:38,040
Speaker 1: hearing the majority of the episodes, I mean, you both

61
00:03:38,120 --> 00:03:42,000
Speaker 1: kind of had very similar experiences, like even down to

62
00:03:42,080 --> 00:03:44,480
Speaker 1: calling your brother in laws that are in law enforcement.

63
00:03:45,080 --> 00:03:47,920
Speaker 1: So I guess I'll start with erin aarin. What was

64
00:03:47,960 --> 00:03:49,320
Speaker 1: it like hearing Ashley's story?

65
00:03:50,680 --> 00:03:55,040
Speaker 6: It felt super validating to hear such a similar experience.

66
00:03:55,240 --> 00:03:58,680
Speaker 6: But one thing that really really blew me away was

67
00:03:59,440 --> 00:04:05,080
Speaker 6: our origin story, like having a sick mother and I

68
00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,120
Speaker 6: don't know how ash would describe her father, but like

69
00:04:07,520 --> 00:04:11,440
Speaker 6: mine was emotionally unavailable, you know, and just like having

70
00:04:11,560 --> 00:04:14,680
Speaker 6: that dynamic and then seeing how that led to our

71
00:04:14,960 --> 00:04:19,039
Speaker 6: attachment style and potentially some codependence there.

72
00:04:19,560 --> 00:04:23,479
Speaker 7: It kind of felt like a belonging.

73
00:04:23,839 --> 00:04:26,440
Speaker 4: I was like, I have somebody that's met me in

74
00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:31,080
Speaker 4: the same crossroads, So it felt really validating for me.

75
00:04:31,240 --> 00:04:33,600
Speaker 8: Also, it's not a tribe you want to be a

76
00:04:33,680 --> 00:04:36,200
Speaker 8: part of, but you also don't want to be alone

77
00:04:36,279 --> 00:04:40,080
Speaker 8: in either, And so, like you said, we're not the

78
00:04:40,240 --> 00:04:46,320
Speaker 8: victims according to see Sam, So I found little support there.

79
00:04:47,200 --> 00:04:51,719
Speaker 6: Other divorces and even people on dating apps they don't

80
00:04:51,800 --> 00:04:54,760
Speaker 6: understand how I feel or that I feel like I

81
00:04:54,880 --> 00:04:58,040
Speaker 6: did nothing wrong in my marriage, So it's just really

82
00:04:58,120 --> 00:05:01,680
Speaker 6: really alienating. But then to find somebody else in those

83
00:05:01,760 --> 00:05:05,600
Speaker 6: crassroads is like, oh, thank god, I'm relatable to somebody.

84
00:05:06,000 --> 00:05:09,719
Speaker 1: Yeah, with everything you've both been through, can you even

85
00:05:09,800 --> 00:05:13,360
Speaker 1: imagine or be open to allowing yourself to be vulnerable

86
00:05:13,760 --> 00:05:16,640
Speaker 1: to be in a relationship again. Would you even consider

87
00:05:16,880 --> 00:05:17,800
Speaker 1: a new relationship.

88
00:05:18,240 --> 00:05:22,080
Speaker 4: I knew for sure that I never wanted to date again.

89
00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:28,360
Speaker 4: I couldn't reconcile how I would bring somebody into my

90
00:05:28,600 --> 00:05:31,760
Speaker 4: safe circle that I've built over this last year, especially

91
00:05:31,960 --> 00:05:36,160
Speaker 4: with the children. However, there is a good friend of

92
00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:42,840
Speaker 4: mine that has been really supportive and really patient and

93
00:05:42,960 --> 00:05:49,040
Speaker 4: really kind. I had known this particular person from years before,

94
00:05:49,080 --> 00:05:51,400
Speaker 4: and he'd reached out just to see how I was doing,

95
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:54,840
Speaker 4: and then asked if we could go get coffee. At

96
00:05:54,880 --> 00:05:57,160
Speaker 4: that point, I still couln't even leave my home. I

97
00:05:57,200 --> 00:05:59,640
Speaker 4: didn't feel safe enough to even go to the grocery store.

98
00:06:00,080 --> 00:06:02,760
Speaker 4: So to think about going in public, not even just

99
00:06:02,880 --> 00:06:07,080
Speaker 4: with me, but with another mail by myself, I physically

100
00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:10,680
Speaker 4: couldn't do it. So after a couple of weeks, I

101
00:06:10,800 --> 00:06:14,840
Speaker 4: agreed to go to dinner with him, you know, as

102
00:06:14,920 --> 00:06:17,480
Speaker 4: a platonic thing. We'd kind of talked here and there,

103
00:06:17,960 --> 00:06:21,360
Speaker 4: and we got to the dinner place and I was like,

104
00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:24,200
Speaker 4: I can't go in, and then he's like, well, do

105
00:06:24,200 --> 00:06:26,719
Speaker 4: you want to get drive through? Like what's your favorite food?

106
00:06:27,279 --> 00:06:31,039
Speaker 4: And I was like, Okay, French fries. He's really had

107
00:06:31,080 --> 00:06:36,360
Speaker 4: to endure quite a bit to stay involved in my life,

108
00:06:36,400 --> 00:06:38,840
Speaker 4: because there's plenty of times if I were him, i'd

109
00:06:38,920 --> 00:06:40,240
Speaker 4: be like, this is a lot.

110
00:06:41,760 --> 00:06:43,160
Speaker 7: But he's been really cool.

111
00:06:44,680 --> 00:06:44,960
Speaker 3: For me.

112
00:06:45,200 --> 00:06:47,800
Speaker 1: When I heard you actually say he has to deal

113
00:06:47,880 --> 00:06:51,240
Speaker 1: with a lot because of me or whatever. If he

114
00:06:51,279 --> 00:06:52,720
Speaker 1: wants to be in your life, he's going to have to.

115
00:06:54,120 --> 00:06:56,680
Speaker 1: I just want you to speak highly of your life

116
00:06:56,680 --> 00:06:58,840
Speaker 1: because you've done so much to get to where you are,

117
00:06:59,200 --> 00:07:02,640
Speaker 1: and I don't want you to talk about what your

118
00:07:02,720 --> 00:07:07,120
Speaker 1: experience is in any shame or put that down because

119
00:07:07,160 --> 00:07:09,560
Speaker 1: you didn't put yourself in this situation Jason did.

120
00:07:10,840 --> 00:07:13,200
Speaker 4: I think you're totally right, and I think it might

121
00:07:13,240 --> 00:07:16,560
Speaker 4: be something that Aaron's already processed through that I haven't

122
00:07:16,920 --> 00:07:20,360
Speaker 4: because it's been in stages. I don't feel like I

123
00:07:20,440 --> 00:07:23,200
Speaker 4: have a big banner above my head that says, Hey,

124
00:07:23,680 --> 00:07:26,720
Speaker 4: my name's Ashley, I have three kids, I have a

125
00:07:26,760 --> 00:07:30,880
Speaker 4: great career. Oh and guess what, my husband, Jason was

126
00:07:31,000 --> 00:07:32,640
Speaker 4: arrested for child pornography.

127
00:07:33,360 --> 00:07:33,520
Speaker 3: You know.

128
00:07:33,920 --> 00:07:36,320
Speaker 4: So it's not like that anymore, but I feel like

129
00:07:36,360 --> 00:07:39,240
Speaker 4: I'm still hiding it behind my back, you know, like

130
00:07:39,360 --> 00:07:43,400
Speaker 4: it's still there right. It defines every single day in

131
00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:50,440
Speaker 4: my life, anything that goes wrong or not as planned.

132
00:07:50,840 --> 00:07:55,360
Speaker 4: I still am like, fuck you, Jason, That's really what

133
00:07:55,520 --> 00:07:59,040
Speaker 4: I think right now. What he did still define so

134
00:07:59,280 --> 00:08:02,080
Speaker 4: much of the kids and I in our days and

135
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:03,120
Speaker 4: how we move forward.

136
00:08:04,040 --> 00:08:07,720
Speaker 7: But you know, slowly going away. Yeah, well, thanks for

137
00:08:07,840 --> 00:08:08,280
Speaker 7: sharing that.

138
00:08:08,960 --> 00:08:11,840
Speaker 1: What about you, Erin, How has this affected your ability

139
00:08:11,920 --> 00:08:14,200
Speaker 1: to trust and your openness to relationships?

140
00:08:14,800 --> 00:08:18,080
Speaker 6: Initially I felt similar. It was really scary and it

141
00:08:18,160 --> 00:08:21,600
Speaker 6: took me some time to open up to people. But

142
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:24,880
Speaker 6: over the course of time, I kind of swung the

143
00:08:25,080 --> 00:08:30,240
Speaker 6: other way. I'm hyper independent as far as attachment styles,

144
00:08:31,720 --> 00:08:37,480
Speaker 6: I'm more love avoidant, where I can cut somebody off quickly. Also,

145
00:08:37,600 --> 00:08:42,000
Speaker 6: being a therapist, I'm working on myself and I'm thinking

146
00:08:42,080 --> 00:08:46,840
Speaker 6: about thoughts and feelings and systemic behavior all day long,

147
00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:47,840
Speaker 6: every day of the week.

148
00:08:47,960 --> 00:08:51,120
Speaker 5: So I'm not ready in a position to not be

149
00:08:51,280 --> 00:08:57,400
Speaker 5: relatable to most men. The emotional IQ just isn't there

150
00:08:57,520 --> 00:09:01,520
Speaker 5: for me. So I do try to online date, I

151
00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:05,360
Speaker 5: do try to connect with people, but if it doesn't

152
00:09:05,400 --> 00:09:08,440
Speaker 5: work out for me, I'm quick to shut that down

153
00:09:08,520 --> 00:09:11,600
Speaker 5: and move another way because my life is.

154
00:09:11,640 --> 00:09:14,520
Speaker 6: Good I've done a lot of work to clean up

155
00:09:14,840 --> 00:09:18,920
Speaker 6: that part. We don't have baggage moving forward. I have

156
00:09:19,080 --> 00:09:22,200
Speaker 6: the custody of my kids. My kids were young when

157
00:09:22,559 --> 00:09:26,040
Speaker 6: this all happened, so the only person I have to

158
00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:29,520
Speaker 6: blame for their behavior is myself, because I'm the only

159
00:09:29,600 --> 00:09:33,679
Speaker 6: one who's been raising them and has this attachment to them.

160
00:09:34,440 --> 00:09:37,160
Speaker 6: I'd like to think as far as the package that

161
00:09:37,280 --> 00:09:41,719
Speaker 6: I put out moving forward is HI, I'm Aaron, I

162
00:09:41,840 --> 00:09:44,000
Speaker 6: have a great job, I run my own business, I

163
00:09:44,040 --> 00:09:47,640
Speaker 6: have two wonderful kids. This is us and the rest

164
00:09:47,720 --> 00:09:50,080
Speaker 6: of it is just background noise at this point.

165
00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:52,319
Speaker 7: Wow, you're amazing.

166
00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:59,079
Speaker 1: Yeah, if you had a chance, Ash, would you go

167
00:09:59,200 --> 00:10:01,640
Speaker 1: back to your old life before you found out everything.

168
00:10:03,559 --> 00:10:12,320
Speaker 7: Wow, I'm gonna be super honest. I miss how naive

169
00:10:12,400 --> 00:10:16,240
Speaker 7: I was to all of this, ugly.

170
00:10:16,880 --> 00:10:21,760
Speaker 4: I miss the mother I was. I miss the routine.

171
00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,720
Speaker 4: I just missed that boring, mundane life that many people

172
00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:31,079
Speaker 4: when they're married for a decade or whatever however long.

173
00:10:31,160 --> 00:10:32,680
Speaker 4: You're like, this is fucking boring.

174
00:10:33,559 --> 00:10:34,120
Speaker 3: I miss that.

175
00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:37,960
Speaker 7: I miss that with every single ounce of my soul.

176
00:10:39,080 --> 00:10:42,920
Speaker 7: So I don't know. I can't fully one answer.

177
00:10:42,760 --> 00:10:48,120
Speaker 4: That I totally understand that, But through my therapy with Jess,

178
00:10:49,200 --> 00:10:53,280
Speaker 4: I also know that I would have never been able

179
00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,480
Speaker 4: to deal with some of my core wounds that have

180
00:10:56,679 --> 00:10:59,160
Speaker 4: led me to some of the choices that I made,

181
00:10:59,679 --> 00:11:06,199
Speaker 4: or not valuing myself and not trusting myself. Maybe me

182
00:11:06,400 --> 00:11:09,120
Speaker 4: being who I was then would have made it worse

183
00:11:09,240 --> 00:11:12,640
Speaker 4: for the children than actually dealing with how we got

184
00:11:12,720 --> 00:11:15,720
Speaker 4: to this spot. So for the first time in my life,

185
00:11:15,800 --> 00:11:19,560
Speaker 4: I feel joy that I've never felt. It's like living

186
00:11:19,600 --> 00:11:21,679
Speaker 4: in a black and white world my whole life, and

187
00:11:21,760 --> 00:11:24,679
Speaker 4: then all of a sudden, I see color, and I

188
00:11:24,840 --> 00:11:26,920
Speaker 4: know what I like and I know what I want.

189
00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 4: But I'm like, you are smart, and you're beautiful, and

190
00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:33,760
Speaker 4: you are worthy, and you are a good mother, and

191
00:11:34,880 --> 00:11:36,240
Speaker 4: this is a good choice.

192
00:11:36,679 --> 00:11:39,120
Speaker 7: I have to actually have that self dialogue now.

193
00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,360
Speaker 1: Arin, you first found out that your husband Joel was

194
00:11:42,400 --> 00:11:46,000
Speaker 1: consuming CCM in twenty seventeen, so it's been considerably longer.

195
00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:50,040
Speaker 1: You seem to be able to separate what happened from

196
00:11:50,080 --> 00:11:51,240
Speaker 1: the life you have with your kids.

197
00:11:51,280 --> 00:11:57,760
Speaker 5: Now. I was a wife because I liked that role

198
00:11:58,240 --> 00:12:02,560
Speaker 5: I was playing. I liked the dynamic that we had,

199
00:12:03,320 --> 00:12:06,160
Speaker 5: but it really had nothing to do with him. I

200
00:12:06,240 --> 00:12:11,199
Speaker 5: didn't like being his wife. But I liked having those.

201
00:12:11,080 --> 00:12:15,120
Speaker 6: Family values, you know, having the potential to have children

202
00:12:15,320 --> 00:12:18,600
Speaker 6: and go to soccer games and make breakfast in the morning.

203
00:12:18,840 --> 00:12:22,600
Speaker 6: I love doing all of that stuff. And that's because

204
00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:24,679
Speaker 6: that's my character. It has nothing to do with what

205
00:12:24,840 --> 00:12:27,559
Speaker 6: he deserves or what he didn't deserve. I would have

206
00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,800
Speaker 6: done that stuff anyway. You know, it was free, it

207
00:12:31,920 --> 00:12:35,360
Speaker 6: was unconditional. Would I want to go back to that life?

208
00:12:35,559 --> 00:12:38,600
Speaker 6: Fuck No, that was a lie.

209
00:12:39,240 --> 00:12:43,200
Speaker 5: That was a hile fa Yeah.

210
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,640
Speaker 6: A total facade. Now I think I actually have the

211
00:12:46,800 --> 00:12:51,720
Speaker 6: chance at being unchained and real and authentic with someone,

212
00:12:51,960 --> 00:12:53,280
Speaker 6: and like, what a blessing.

213
00:12:54,440 --> 00:12:58,160
Speaker 5: And we're young, We've got tons of time to do this. Right,

214
00:12:59,160 --> 00:13:02,240
Speaker 5: listening to you talk makes me emotional on such a crier.

215
00:13:03,080 --> 00:13:06,199
Speaker 5: I just wouldn't want to go. I feel like you're

216
00:13:06,240 --> 00:13:07,559
Speaker 5: a past version of me.

217
00:13:08,840 --> 00:13:10,360
Speaker 7: I hope you're a future version of me.

218
00:13:11,520 --> 00:13:15,040
Speaker 5: That's such a supreme prompliment. But I just want to

219
00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:21,800
Speaker 5: say it's gonna be okay, it's gonna be better. I

220
00:13:21,960 --> 00:13:26,160
Speaker 5: wish that people that we interacted with or tried to

221
00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:30,079
Speaker 5: date understood what a fucking blessing it is to be

222
00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,800
Speaker 5: with someone like us. Because we stepped up and we

223
00:13:33,920 --> 00:13:34,760
Speaker 5: did the right thing.

224
00:13:35,679 --> 00:13:39,800
Speaker 2: We have integrity, we have strength, We know what we want,

225
00:13:39,880 --> 00:13:44,280
Speaker 2: we know how to deal with difficult situations. And sometimes

226
00:13:44,400 --> 00:13:49,400
Speaker 2: that just gets me when people maybe misunderstand me as

227
00:13:49,880 --> 00:13:53,200
Speaker 2: a burden because I think.

228
00:13:53,080 --> 00:13:54,160
Speaker 5: I'm plucking awesome.

229
00:13:54,800 --> 00:13:56,920
Speaker 6: You are and you're gonna be awesome too.

230
00:13:59,800 --> 00:14:02,559
Speaker 1: Are Our goal was to unearth a betrayal going on

231
00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,040
Speaker 1: in homes across the country. A new friendship between these

232
00:14:06,080 --> 00:14:10,240
Speaker 1: women is an extra gift. Another gift is hearing from

233
00:14:10,280 --> 00:14:13,480
Speaker 1: our audience. We set up an email Betrayal Pod at

234
00:14:13,559 --> 00:14:16,360
Speaker 1: gmail dot com so you can send us anything, your

235
00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:20,320
Speaker 1: own story of betrayal, thoughts about the podcast, even complaints.

236
00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:23,480
Speaker 1: We get a few of those, but mostly we've seen

237
00:14:23,600 --> 00:14:25,800
Speaker 1: letters of support or similar experiences.

238
00:14:26,560 --> 00:14:27,560
Speaker 7: We asked Ashley and.

239
00:14:27,600 --> 00:14:30,000
Speaker 1: Her teenage daughter Avea, who was the victim of her

240
00:14:30,000 --> 00:14:34,440
Speaker 1: stepfather Jason's voyeurism, sit with us and read some how's

241
00:14:34,440 --> 00:14:37,240
Speaker 1: been everything Since we launched the show, I've been thinking

242
00:14:37,280 --> 00:14:37,640
Speaker 1: about you.

243
00:14:38,240 --> 00:14:39,240
Speaker 7: Good, really good.

244
00:14:39,360 --> 00:14:40,840
Speaker 3: I've had a lot of girls reach out to me

245
00:14:40,960 --> 00:14:43,000
Speaker 3: and about the podcast, which is super cool.

246
00:14:45,480 --> 00:14:49,280
Speaker 1: So this one says Aveya, Hi, I'm sure Avea has heard.

247
00:14:49,400 --> 00:14:52,760
Speaker 1: She's an inspiration. I'm sure she's heard, she's strong, that

248
00:14:52,880 --> 00:14:57,000
Speaker 1: she's persevered through the worst thing imaginable as someone who

249
00:14:57,120 --> 00:15:00,280
Speaker 1: was abused by their mother's fiance at twelve years old.

250
00:15:00,840 --> 00:15:04,360
Speaker 1: Avea is more than that. She's a role model. I'm

251
00:15:04,400 --> 00:15:07,040
Speaker 1: twenty four now. I never told my mother what happened,

252
00:15:07,680 --> 00:15:10,760
Speaker 1: even though she knows. I was groomed and abused by

253
00:15:10,800 --> 00:15:13,560
Speaker 1: my father till I was fifteen, and I never told

254
00:15:13,600 --> 00:15:17,240
Speaker 1: anyone about it until I met my husband. Avea's strength

255
00:15:17,320 --> 00:15:20,040
Speaker 1: to come forward and give the biggest middle finger to

256
00:15:20,200 --> 00:15:24,680
Speaker 1: Jason felt so cathartic to hear she's laying stones for healing,

257
00:15:24,880 --> 00:15:27,080
Speaker 1: helping pave the way for the kids who are going

258
00:15:27,160 --> 00:15:30,080
Speaker 1: through all of this and will unfortunately go through this

259
00:15:30,200 --> 00:15:33,680
Speaker 1: in the future. I hope Avea knows how inspirational her

260
00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:37,040
Speaker 1: bravery and strength is. I wish Evea, Ashley and the

261
00:15:37,080 --> 00:15:39,960
Speaker 1: whole betrayal crew the best. Thank you for telling the

262
00:15:40,000 --> 00:15:43,080
Speaker 1: story and bringing awareness to a dangerous oversight in the

263
00:15:43,160 --> 00:15:44,240
Speaker 1: criminal justice system.

264
00:15:44,760 --> 00:15:47,280
Speaker 7: Thank you so much. Jay Oh.

265
00:15:48,000 --> 00:15:50,800
Speaker 3: It's really awesome to hear other people's stories and like

266
00:15:51,000 --> 00:15:53,920
Speaker 3: them have the strength to come forward and talk about it,

267
00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:57,120
Speaker 3: even them writing that email is such a big thing too.

268
00:15:57,640 --> 00:15:59,920
Speaker 1: Right because even putting together in an email could be

269
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:00,920
Speaker 1: scary to somebody.

270
00:16:01,560 --> 00:16:04,480
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, colicking send could be the hardest thing that

271
00:16:04,560 --> 00:16:05,520
Speaker 3: they've ever done, you.

272
00:16:05,560 --> 00:16:06,240
Speaker 5: Know, right.

273
00:16:07,920 --> 00:16:10,600
Speaker 1: Hello, I just started season two today and my heart

274
00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,000
Speaker 1: is pounding. I was also a victim of a partner

275
00:16:14,040 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 1: who committed a crime with child pornography. He worked with

276
00:16:17,480 --> 00:16:21,000
Speaker 1: underage girls as a youth wellness coordinator and access the

277
00:16:21,160 --> 00:16:24,240
Speaker 1: internal records at his work to track down his victims

278
00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,720
Speaker 1: on Facebook and groomed them. It makes me sick to

279
00:16:27,800 --> 00:16:30,760
Speaker 1: my stomach to think about it still, but hearing others

280
00:16:30,840 --> 00:16:33,080
Speaker 1: on the podcast talk about going through the same thing

281
00:16:33,480 --> 00:16:36,880
Speaker 1: has been really helpful in the process and processing my trauma.

282
00:16:37,240 --> 00:16:41,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for making this podcasts.

283
00:16:40,440 --> 00:16:41,640
Speaker 7: Just mind blowing to me.

284
00:16:42,320 --> 00:16:46,040
Speaker 3: I never would have imagined people from across the world

285
00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,440
Speaker 3: reaching out to us telling us their stories and how

286
00:16:49,480 --> 00:16:49,880
Speaker 3: they feel.

287
00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:52,480
Speaker 4: When she had said the way that her partner had

288
00:16:52,520 --> 00:16:56,920
Speaker 4: groomed his victims, it made me remember like the shame

289
00:16:57,000 --> 00:17:00,960
Speaker 4: that I felt and how terrible it was. And when

290
00:17:01,080 --> 00:17:03,280
Speaker 4: she said that she was able to work through some

291
00:17:03,400 --> 00:17:06,840
Speaker 4: of the trauma by hearing the stories. It's another one

292
00:17:06,880 --> 00:17:09,240
Speaker 4: of those things where I was like, Okay, this is

293
00:17:09,359 --> 00:17:13,479
Speaker 4: exactly where I am supposed to be right now because

294
00:17:13,560 --> 00:17:14,879
Speaker 4: of women like her.

295
00:17:20,000 --> 00:17:20,680
Speaker 7: The next one.

296
00:17:21,760 --> 00:17:23,600
Speaker 1: I just want to say to Ashley, thank you for

297
00:17:23,760 --> 00:17:26,800
Speaker 1: being there for your kids. I went through something like

298
00:17:27,000 --> 00:17:30,320
Speaker 1: your daughter went through, but it turned out differently. My

299
00:17:30,400 --> 00:17:33,440
Speaker 1: grandfather violated me, my sister, and my cousin for years.

300
00:17:34,000 --> 00:17:35,840
Speaker 7: It started when I was four and only.

301
00:17:35,720 --> 00:17:38,400
Speaker 1: Stopped when I was six, and it's because my cousin

302
00:17:38,480 --> 00:17:42,160
Speaker 1: told the police. My grandfather first started out with Sea

303
00:17:42,200 --> 00:17:44,480
Speaker 1: Sam and then all the way up to what he

304
00:17:44,560 --> 00:17:45,000
Speaker 1: did to us.

305
00:17:45,760 --> 00:17:46,879
Speaker 7: When my mom found out.

306
00:17:46,800 --> 00:17:49,520
Speaker 1: What had happened and the things he did, she couldn't

307
00:17:49,600 --> 00:17:53,119
Speaker 1: believe that her father would do such terrible things, so

308
00:17:53,240 --> 00:17:56,720
Speaker 1: she didn't believe any of it. She refused to face

309
00:17:56,800 --> 00:17:59,600
Speaker 1: reality to protect her children, and it's why I haven't

310
00:17:59,640 --> 00:18:03,520
Speaker 1: spoken to her in years. Ashley, you have saved countless

311
00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:06,719
Speaker 1: little girls from being severely traumatized and hurt by Jason.

312
00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:09,720
Speaker 1: I can never ever thank you enough for that. You

313
00:18:09,800 --> 00:18:12,399
Speaker 1: are an amazing mom, and I just wish my younger

314
00:18:12,480 --> 00:18:15,040
Speaker 1: self had a mom that was even half as brave

315
00:18:15,160 --> 00:18:18,159
Speaker 1: as you are. Thank you, thank you, thank you.

316
00:18:18,720 --> 00:18:18,920
Speaker 3: Wow.

317
00:18:20,440 --> 00:18:22,560
Speaker 4: I think my biggest fair through all of this was

318
00:18:23,000 --> 00:18:28,359
Speaker 4: exactly what this woman has wrote in I always thought

319
00:18:28,400 --> 00:18:31,040
Speaker 4: that there's a possibility that someday my children will be

320
00:18:31,160 --> 00:18:35,199
Speaker 4: upset with maybe the way that I originally handled Jason

321
00:18:35,320 --> 00:18:37,639
Speaker 4: being caught, and one day they choose not to have

322
00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,119
Speaker 4: a relationship with me because of the way that I

323
00:18:40,240 --> 00:18:41,400
Speaker 4: initially reacted.

324
00:18:41,920 --> 00:18:44,440
Speaker 1: You mean, when you went back into wifey mode and

325
00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:46,800
Speaker 1: supporting him after he got out of jail the first time.

326
00:18:47,320 --> 00:18:52,720
Speaker 4: Yeah, but I also know that once, you know, I

327
00:18:53,200 --> 00:18:55,600
Speaker 4: kind of went through that brief and really got over

328
00:18:55,680 --> 00:18:57,120
Speaker 4: some of the denial and really.

329
00:18:57,000 --> 00:18:59,760
Speaker 7: Looked at it straight in the face. I realized a

330
00:18:59,800 --> 00:19:00,440
Speaker 7: couple things.

331
00:19:00,960 --> 00:19:04,480
Speaker 4: One of them was, in my opinion, the criminal justice

332
00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:09,879
Speaker 4: system isn't there for the victims. I'm so grateful that

333
00:19:10,040 --> 00:19:14,600
Speaker 4: this woman hurt us, and I'm grateful that in ten years,

334
00:19:14,720 --> 00:19:18,360
Speaker 4: twenty years, that my children and other children and other

335
00:19:18,920 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 4: women can look back and they'll know that this was

336
00:19:21,880 --> 00:19:24,119
Speaker 4: my fight. This was the only way I knew how

337
00:19:24,200 --> 00:19:27,159
Speaker 4: to fight for them. Yeah, thank you.

338
00:19:29,080 --> 00:19:31,359
Speaker 1: When we first went out to Utah, here's what Avea

339
00:19:31,480 --> 00:19:32,840
Speaker 1: told us about the podcast.

340
00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:36,560
Speaker 3: So when my mother had first told me about this project,

341
00:19:36,640 --> 00:19:39,800
Speaker 3: I kind of was like, what is she like? She's crazy,

342
00:19:39,920 --> 00:19:42,280
Speaker 3: Like she has lost her mind, like something is wrong

343
00:19:42,320 --> 00:19:45,159
Speaker 3: with her, Like she is here, she batshit crazy. She

344
00:19:45,280 --> 00:19:47,120
Speaker 3: thinks that she's getting on a damn podcast.

345
00:19:48,119 --> 00:19:50,080
Speaker 1: Avea, Do you think your mom's so bad shit crazy

346
00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:51,440
Speaker 1: for getting on a damn podcast?

347
00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:55,639
Speaker 7: No?

348
00:19:56,280 --> 00:20:02,280
Speaker 3: No, I definitely don't think so. Now this has changed

349
00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:06,800
Speaker 3: my mom's life. It has made her a completely different person.

350
00:20:06,920 --> 00:20:10,760
Speaker 3: And I am beyond grateful for this podcast. And I

351
00:20:10,800 --> 00:20:12,920
Speaker 3: guess I didn't really understand it as much at first,

352
00:20:13,720 --> 00:20:17,000
Speaker 3: but now that it's really like in action and going on,

353
00:20:17,880 --> 00:20:20,400
Speaker 3: I really understand the help that it's brought to my mom.

354
00:20:20,560 --> 00:20:23,879
Speaker 3: And I definitely don't think she's batshit crazy anymore. I

355
00:20:24,040 --> 00:20:26,159
Speaker 3: definitely am beyond proud of her.

356
00:20:33,119 --> 00:20:35,399
Speaker 1: At the beginning of the series, I told you about

357
00:20:35,440 --> 00:20:38,880
Speaker 1: flying into Salt Lake City and the inviting, shadowy mountains

358
00:20:39,040 --> 00:20:41,960
Speaker 1: that welcomed us late at night when we arrived. We

359
00:20:42,080 --> 00:20:44,480
Speaker 1: had come here to meet Ashley Lynton and learn about

360
00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:47,200
Speaker 1: what happened to her family. I told you about the

361
00:20:47,280 --> 00:20:50,280
Speaker 1: sinister things that had happened in her home, all of

362
00:20:50,359 --> 00:20:54,040
Speaker 1: the conflicting feelings of grappling with the beauty and the darkness.

363
00:20:55,560 --> 00:20:58,080
Speaker 1: Before we left Salt Lake City, we drove up to

364
00:20:58,080 --> 00:21:01,919
Speaker 1: the Utah State Capital one afternoon. The building sits at

365
00:21:01,920 --> 00:21:05,879
Speaker 1: a high elevation overlooking downtown Salt Lake City. A grand

366
00:21:05,920 --> 00:21:10,080
Speaker 1: staircase sits up front, with symmetrical Corinthian columns along the

367
00:21:10,119 --> 00:21:13,600
Speaker 1: width of the building in signe Peak, a hill with

368
00:21:13,760 --> 00:21:18,840
Speaker 1: religious significance to latter day Saints peaks from behind. The

369
00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:21,920
Speaker 1: building reminds you of a mini version of the Capitol

370
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:22,400
Speaker 1: in DC.

371
00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:25,840
Speaker 7: It was cold, but.

372
00:21:25,880 --> 00:21:31,520
Speaker 1: There was a clear blue sky when we arrived. We

373
00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,520
Speaker 1: entered through a side door. There was security there, a

374
00:21:34,560 --> 00:21:39,119
Speaker 1: few police officers, and we stood there. We were waiting

375
00:21:39,240 --> 00:21:42,160
Speaker 1: for a metal detector, maybe someone to go through our bag,

376
00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:49,320
Speaker 1: something to happen. It was a little awkward, to be honest. Finally,

377
00:21:49,480 --> 00:21:51,920
Speaker 1: my producer said, with all the authorities she could muster,

378
00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:55,400
Speaker 1: we're here to see the Attorney General. The cops looked

379
00:21:55,440 --> 00:21:58,000
Speaker 1: at us, amused and said, well, what did you do?

380
00:21:59,359 --> 00:22:03,800
Speaker 1: Okay from Philly? This was so different from what we'd expect. Yeah,

381
00:22:03,880 --> 00:22:06,360
Speaker 1: it's the people's house, sure, but we're still checking your bag.

382
00:22:07,160 --> 00:22:07,560
Speaker 7: Not here.

383
00:22:08,240 --> 00:22:11,720
Speaker 1: Nobody was checking anything. Third floor was all they said,

384
00:22:11,760 --> 00:22:14,560
Speaker 1: with a wave. We had some extra time, so we

385
00:22:14,720 --> 00:22:19,040
Speaker 1: roamed around the building. Built in nineteen sixteen. The Utah

386
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,280
Speaker 1: Capitol building has a dome supported by striking marblestones dotted

387
00:22:23,320 --> 00:22:27,480
Speaker 1: with skylights and murals depicting early pioneers. We walked around

388
00:22:27,560 --> 00:22:30,320
Speaker 1: and peeked into the chambers where the State Senate and

389
00:22:30,359 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 1: State House meet, and then we met up with Attorney

390
00:22:33,359 --> 00:22:36,080
Speaker 1: General Reys's chiefest staff for a cantrell. O.

391
00:22:36,119 --> 00:22:38,800
Speaker 3: Hey, there is one thing you should see, but it's

392
00:22:38,920 --> 00:22:40,640
Speaker 3: on the other side of the stereo going down behind

393
00:22:40,760 --> 00:22:41,280
Speaker 3: Christmas Tree.

394
00:22:41,440 --> 00:22:41,680
Speaker 7: Okay.

395
00:22:42,720 --> 00:22:44,720
Speaker 1: Rick led us to a staircase on the west side

396
00:22:44,720 --> 00:22:47,080
Speaker 1: of the Capitol leading up to the second floor.

397
00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 7: Okay, so my favorite sculpture of the democracy and freedom

398
00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:51,960
Speaker 7: is not like.

399
00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,439
Speaker 3: George Washington or something like that. It's these stereo works

400
00:22:56,119 --> 00:22:57,399
Speaker 3: you can see on each side.

401
00:22:57,680 --> 00:22:59,800
Speaker 4: It kind of dips down the end.

402
00:23:00,119 --> 00:23:02,520
Speaker 1: At first I couldn't tell what Rick was talking about.

403
00:23:03,080 --> 00:23:06,320
Speaker 1: They looked like normal steps, but then it became clear.

404
00:23:06,480 --> 00:23:10,600
Speaker 1: Oh my god, I noticed on the right side you

405
00:23:10,640 --> 00:23:14,800
Speaker 1: can see an indentation in the marble worn down, created

406
00:23:14,840 --> 00:23:17,600
Speaker 1: by one hundred years of footsteps. That's literally just like

407
00:23:18,119 --> 00:23:20,640
Speaker 1: hard work, wearing tear of people that just going to work.

408
00:23:20,800 --> 00:23:24,359
Speaker 7: It's a statue of democracy carved by literal democracy.

409
00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:30,680
Speaker 1: Negotiating, working, evolving to make change change for the better.

410
00:23:31,720 --> 00:23:35,160
Speaker 1: During the project, I thought about the staircase often. Sometimes

411
00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:40,680
Speaker 1: it can be frustrating, wondering well things ever change, But

412
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,240
Speaker 1: these stairs reminded me it just starts with one step

413
00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,560
Speaker 1: and dedication to keep moving forward and upward.

414
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:50,440
Speaker 7: We can make laws.

415
00:23:50,920 --> 00:23:54,320
Speaker 1: We can tell our representatives what matters to us and

416
00:23:54,480 --> 00:23:57,040
Speaker 1: what we expect of them they don't hear us. We

417
00:23:57,119 --> 00:24:00,639
Speaker 1: can find new representatives. We can hold people accountable when

418
00:24:00,680 --> 00:24:04,359
Speaker 1: they hurt our children. Betrayal starts with the people brave

419
00:24:04,480 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: enough to share what's wrong in their relationships and in

420
00:24:07,200 --> 00:24:11,560
Speaker 1: our greater society. My hope is we'll all do something

421
00:24:11,600 --> 00:24:15,439
Speaker 1: to make it better. I'm Andrea Gunning and you'll hear

422
00:24:15,480 --> 00:24:27,200
Speaker 1: from me on a bonus episode soon. If you would

423
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:29,240
Speaker 1: like to reach out to the Betrayal Team, email us

424
00:24:29,280 --> 00:24:33,199
Speaker 1: at Betrayalpod at gmail dot com. That's Betrayal Pod at

425
00:24:33,280 --> 00:24:37,399
Speaker 1: gmail dot com. To report a case of child sexual exploitation,

426
00:24:37,840 --> 00:24:40,720
Speaker 1: called the National Center for Missing and Exploited Children's cyber

427
00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: Tipline at one eight hundred the Lost. If you or

428
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:47,560
Speaker 1: someone you know is worried about their sexual thoughts and feelings,

429
00:24:47,600 --> 00:24:50,760
Speaker 1: towards children. Reach out to Stop it Now dot org.

430
00:24:51,320 --> 00:24:53,320
Speaker 1: In the United Kingdom go to stop it now dot

431
00:24:53,480 --> 00:24:58,080
Speaker 1: org dot UK. These organizations can help. We're grateful for

432
00:24:58,160 --> 00:25:00,399
Speaker 1: your support and one way to show up it is

433
00:25:00,440 --> 00:25:03,320
Speaker 1: by subscribing to our show on Apple Podcasts and don't

434
00:25:03,359 --> 00:25:06,399
Speaker 1: forget to rate and review Betrayal five star reviews go

435
00:25:06,480 --> 00:25:09,080
Speaker 1: a long way, A big thank you to all of

436
00:25:09,160 --> 00:25:13,480
Speaker 1: our listeners. Betrayal is a production of Glass Podcasts, a

437
00:25:13,560 --> 00:25:16,840
Speaker 1: division of Glass Entertainment Group, in partnership with iHeart Podcasts.

438
00:25:17,560 --> 00:25:20,600
Speaker 1: The show was executive produced by Nancy Glass and Jennifer Fason,

439
00:25:21,080 --> 00:25:24,840
Speaker 1: hosted and produced by me Andrea Gunning, written and produced

440
00:25:24,840 --> 00:25:28,720
Speaker 1: by Kerry Hartman, also produced by Ben Fetterman and associate

441
00:25:28,760 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 1: producer Chris and Melcurrie. Our iHeart team is Ali Perry

442
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: and Jessica Krincheck. Special thanks to our talent Ashley Linton,

443
00:25:36,880 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: Aveya and Erin. Thank you to production assistant Tessa Shields.

444
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:46,560
Speaker 1: Audio editing and mixing by Matt Dovechio. Betrayal's theme composed

445
00:25:46,560 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: by Oliver Bains. Music library provided by my Music and

446
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:56,040
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeart, visit the iHeartRadio app Apple podcasts,

447
00:25:56,359 --> 00:25:58,159
Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts