1 00:00:01,400 --> 00:00:04,360 Speaker 1: Rhet Qualit was just two and a half years old 2 00:00:04,400 --> 00:00:09,640 Speaker 1: when he was diagnosed with leukemia. It was two thousand 3 00:00:10,520 --> 00:00:14,560 Speaker 1: and Rhetina's family were living in court Madera, California. It's 4 00:00:14,600 --> 00:00:16,800 Speaker 1: a little town just over the Golden Gate Bridge from 5 00:00:16,800 --> 00:00:22,360 Speaker 1: San Francisco in Marin County. When ratt was first diagnosed 6 00:00:22,360 --> 00:00:26,040 Speaker 1: with cancer, we lived in the hospital for eight seven nights. 7 00:00:26,079 --> 00:00:28,880 Speaker 1: Like my wife and I traded every twenty four hours. 8 00:00:29,200 --> 00:00:32,560 Speaker 1: I mean he was sick, Okay, he couldn't go home 9 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:37,239 Speaker 1: or anything. That's Carl Red's dad. Cormadera is the kind 10 00:00:37,240 --> 00:00:41,120 Speaker 1: of place you might describe as crunchy. People shop at 11 00:00:41,120 --> 00:00:45,920 Speaker 1: the farmers market, the organic and many of them also 12 00:00:46,040 --> 00:00:50,560 Speaker 1: choose not to vaccinate their kids. Carl and his wife, 13 00:00:50,640 --> 00:00:55,560 Speaker 1: Jody knew vaccination rates were lower there. Rhet's doctors had 14 00:00:55,600 --> 00:01:00,000 Speaker 1: even warned them about it. The reason Rhet's parents were 15 00:01:00,080 --> 00:01:04,959 Speaker 1: concerned about this had to do with his cancer. Chemotherapy 16 00:01:05,040 --> 00:01:08,720 Speaker 1: had wiped out any immunity Red had from previous vaccines 17 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,760 Speaker 1: and also made him too weak to get new ones. 18 00:01:12,600 --> 00:01:15,760 Speaker 1: If he caught something like the measles, he likely wouldn't 19 00:01:15,760 --> 00:01:20,479 Speaker 1: be strong enough to keep receiving his cancer treatments. Carl 20 00:01:20,520 --> 00:01:24,680 Speaker 1: and Jodie really started to worry about vaccination rates when 21 00:01:24,680 --> 00:01:29,319 Speaker 1: Red's older sister was about to go to kindergarten, and 22 00:01:29,959 --> 00:01:33,000 Speaker 1: one of the biggest fears that we had was that 23 00:01:33,080 --> 00:01:37,240 Speaker 1: she might bring an illness home from school and it 24 00:01:37,319 --> 00:01:40,480 Speaker 1: might get her brother sick. When it was time for 25 00:01:40,600 --> 00:01:44,959 Speaker 1: my son to go to school, it was really a 26 00:01:45,040 --> 00:01:50,040 Speaker 1: concern for us to understand how dangerous would it be 27 00:01:50,160 --> 00:01:52,160 Speaker 1: for him to go to school, meaning how many kids 28 00:01:52,200 --> 00:01:56,080 Speaker 1: in the school were unvaccinated. The answer to that question 29 00:01:56,400 --> 00:02:01,800 Speaker 1: was concerning more than six percent of Marine kindergarteners went unvaccinated, 30 00:02:02,400 --> 00:02:07,240 Speaker 1: about triple the state average. This was allowed thanks to 31 00:02:07,240 --> 00:02:10,800 Speaker 1: a state rule that let parents exempt their kids. The 32 00:02:10,880 --> 00:02:14,200 Speaker 1: Crawbett family solution at the time was to request that 33 00:02:14,240 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: RHTT be in a classroom without any unvaccinated kids. The 34 00:02:18,520 --> 00:02:22,280 Speaker 1: school obliged. We wanted to go to kindergarten, We wanted 35 00:02:22,320 --> 00:02:23,400 Speaker 1: to go to school. We leant him to be a 36 00:02:23,480 --> 00:02:27,679 Speaker 1: normal kid um, but it's important that you make sure 37 00:02:27,720 --> 00:02:31,920 Speaker 1: that everybody around him is vaccinated also. But that was 38 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:35,520 Speaker 1: really all they could do. They couldn't protect him outside 39 00:02:35,520 --> 00:02:39,880 Speaker 1: of school or even on the playground. Carl felt helpless. 40 00:02:40,680 --> 00:02:44,360 Speaker 1: You know, we had been asking the school district and 41 00:02:44,480 --> 00:02:47,240 Speaker 1: parents and everybody, you know, please vaccinate your kids. There 42 00:02:47,280 --> 00:02:53,040 Speaker 1: was nothing we could really do about it. Then came January. 43 00:02:53,400 --> 00:02:56,240 Speaker 1: Help Officials fear thousands may have been exposed to the 44 00:02:56,360 --> 00:03:01,040 Speaker 1: measles at Disneyland and Disney California Adventure last month. Most 45 00:03:01,120 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 1: of those who got the disease were not vaccinated against it. 46 00:03:04,880 --> 00:03:08,440 Speaker 1: The measles outbreak at Disneyland has proven it's a small world, 47 00:03:08,480 --> 00:03:11,720 Speaker 1: after all. Health officials now say twenty six cases in 48 00:03:11,840 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 1: four states have been linked to visits to the park. 49 00:03:14,360 --> 00:03:18,680 Speaker 1: In mid December, an outbreak of the measles that would 50 00:03:18,680 --> 00:03:22,359 Speaker 1: eventually infect more than a hundred and forty people across 51 00:03:22,560 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 1: multiple states, Mexico, and Canada have been traced back to Disneyland, 52 00:03:29,600 --> 00:03:33,680 Speaker 1: the place the outbreak started. Made this news hit especially hard. 53 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 1: There was something horrifying about the idea that you could 54 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:40,400 Speaker 1: just be sailing down the musty waters of the Pirates 55 00:03:40,400 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: of the Caribbean, singing along with all those mechanical marauding 56 00:03:44,240 --> 00:03:49,320 Speaker 1: pirates and contracted disease that nobody even remembered existed. When 57 00:03:49,320 --> 00:03:54,520 Speaker 1: the Disneyland measles outbreak happened, I happened to be watching 58 00:03:54,560 --> 00:03:59,840 Speaker 1: the story on the news, and um, I was not 59 00:04:00,080 --> 00:04:01,760 Speaker 1: one of these people that would go out and like 60 00:04:01,920 --> 00:04:06,960 Speaker 1: blog or or post on Facebook or you know, like 61 00:04:07,400 --> 00:04:11,000 Speaker 1: get into the fray or anything. But it just was 62 00:04:11,080 --> 00:04:13,520 Speaker 1: vira like it hit home. It was so personal to me. 63 00:04:13,720 --> 00:04:16,760 Speaker 1: And I was reading this story on MPR and I 64 00:04:16,800 --> 00:04:21,640 Speaker 1: went on and I responded to a news story like 65 00:04:21,680 --> 00:04:25,000 Speaker 1: in one of the comments and I just wrote, I'm 66 00:04:25,040 --> 00:04:28,160 Speaker 1: just blown away by the fact that my kid is 67 00:04:28,200 --> 00:04:30,479 Speaker 1: not allowed to take peanut butter to school because a 68 00:04:30,480 --> 00:04:34,359 Speaker 1: few kids have an allergy, but yet they don't have 69 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: to be vaccinated for measles and my kid has cancer. 70 00:04:39,040 --> 00:04:42,080 Speaker 1: After making that comment, a reporter reached out to Carl, 71 00:04:43,360 --> 00:04:49,200 Speaker 1: and then more reporters and more. Pretty soon, Rhett was 72 00:04:49,240 --> 00:04:53,200 Speaker 1: appearing regularly in local news. I spoke with Rhett recently 73 00:04:53,240 --> 00:04:55,560 Speaker 1: about that time. My parents told me that the fart 74 00:04:55,560 --> 00:04:58,240 Speaker 1: from my story than I would be able to help 75 00:04:58,320 --> 00:05:02,800 Speaker 1: making difference, and talking to the press was a way 76 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,560 Speaker 1: to do that. At the same time, state lawmakers were 77 00:05:06,600 --> 00:05:10,799 Speaker 1: mobilizing to craft legislation that would do away with personal 78 00:05:10,839 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: belief exemptions from vaccines and hopefully prevent future outbreaks. Soon 79 00:05:17,720 --> 00:05:22,160 Speaker 1: Rhett and the legislators would join forces. He would become 80 00:05:22,480 --> 00:05:26,160 Speaker 1: the face of this bill. He's only in first grade, 81 00:05:26,200 --> 00:05:28,720 Speaker 1: but seven year old Rhet Crowd made sure, he said 82 00:05:28,800 --> 00:05:32,080 Speaker 1: to clear message to lawmakers considering a bill that would 83 00:05:32,120 --> 00:05:36,039 Speaker 1: require children to be vaccinated before they attend public school. 84 00:05:36,480 --> 00:05:43,680 Speaker 1: Thank you for making sure that's kids like me don't 85 00:05:44,680 --> 00:05:49,960 Speaker 1: don't get stay at school is a leukemia. A few 86 00:05:50,000 --> 00:05:53,640 Speaker 1: months after the Disney outbreak, Rhet was cancer free and 87 00:05:53,680 --> 00:05:58,360 Speaker 1: he finally got his MMR vaccine, but by then they 88 00:05:58,360 --> 00:06:01,880 Speaker 1: were all in on the crusade. Carl says that the 89 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:05,240 Speaker 1: Disneyland outbreak helped to galvanize people to come out and 90 00:06:05,279 --> 00:06:12,600 Speaker 1: support vaccination. It was a tipping point. Was definitely the 91 00:06:12,680 --> 00:06:17,760 Speaker 1: Disneyland measles outbreak. Without question. The school where my kid 92 00:06:17,800 --> 00:06:21,080 Speaker 1: goes to. When that Disneyland thing happened and we were 93 00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,120 Speaker 1: on the news and things like that, everybody went and 94 00:06:23,120 --> 00:06:25,600 Speaker 1: got vaccinated. They didn't need the law. And I say 95 00:06:25,640 --> 00:06:32,120 Speaker 1: everybody enough. But it wasn't one sided. For all of 96 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 1: the support that the Crowd family received, there was also 97 00:06:37,000 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: a backlash. The anti vaxtors came out. I mean I remember, 98 00:06:42,440 --> 00:06:46,640 Speaker 1: I mean they threatened us, They threatened my kid. They 99 00:06:46,680 --> 00:06:51,120 Speaker 1: I mean they they told lies, the misinformation, They all 100 00:06:51,200 --> 00:06:57,080 Speaker 1: sorts of stuff right, and and it was scary. If 101 00:06:57,080 --> 00:07:00,640 Speaker 1: there was one moment in time where became clear that 102 00:07:00,720 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 1: vaccine skeptics were no longer just some irrelevant fringe group 103 00:07:04,920 --> 00:07:09,920 Speaker 1: of crunching or in moms, this was it. California is 104 00:07:09,960 --> 00:07:12,960 Speaker 1: pushed to tamp down the number of people who weren't 105 00:07:13,040 --> 00:07:19,320 Speaker 1: vaccine their kids. Caused vaccine skeptics to mobilize, and in 106 00:07:19,440 --> 00:07:22,440 Speaker 1: order to grow, they would need to appeal to a 107 00:07:22,480 --> 00:07:27,120 Speaker 1: broader audience. Their messaging at this time changed to go 108 00:07:27,200 --> 00:07:32,360 Speaker 1: beyond just vaccine safety. Suddenly they were talking about choice 109 00:07:32,880 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 1: and freedom and democracy. And this shift would bring in 110 00:07:37,320 --> 00:07:40,920 Speaker 1: other groups who were worried about things like government overreach. 111 00:07:43,760 --> 00:07:48,120 Speaker 1: And one new technological innovation would allow this message to 112 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:51,520 Speaker 1: spread to people who had never before considered the safety 113 00:07:51,520 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: of vaccines. That tool was social media. It would foreshadow 114 00:07:57,640 --> 00:08:00,440 Speaker 1: what we're living through now, a moment it in which 115 00:08:00,480 --> 00:08:03,520 Speaker 1: millions of Americans feel they do not trust the government 116 00:08:03,840 --> 00:08:07,160 Speaker 1: when it comes to public health. I'm bloomberg, youth health 117 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:12,120 Speaker 1: reporter Kristin V. Brown from the Prognosis podcast. This is 118 00:08:12,160 --> 00:08:30,520 Speaker 1: doubt when the Disneyland outbreak happened, I realized that, you know, 119 00:08:30,840 --> 00:08:33,800 Speaker 1: right here in the US, we have some serious public 120 00:08:33,800 --> 00:08:37,880 Speaker 1: health issues as well. Maya Majunder is a health informatics 121 00:08:37,920 --> 00:08:42,240 Speaker 1: researcher at Boston Children's Hospital. This is a fancy way 122 00:08:42,280 --> 00:08:45,600 Speaker 1: of saying that Maya is a math person, and at 123 00:08:45,600 --> 00:08:48,520 Speaker 1: the time of the Disneyland outbreak, she was a grad 124 00:08:48,559 --> 00:08:52,640 Speaker 1: student at m I T. She focused on studying emerging 125 00:08:52,640 --> 00:08:56,200 Speaker 1: infectious diseases around the world. The news of what had 126 00:08:56,200 --> 00:08:59,480 Speaker 1: happened at Disneyland was sort of a call to action 127 00:08:59,559 --> 00:09:02,520 Speaker 1: for her. I wanted to dig into the outbreak because 128 00:09:02,520 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: it might offer clues to a mystery. Measles was declared 129 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,959 Speaker 1: eliminated from the US in two thousand by the World 130 00:09:09,960 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: Health Organization. They thanked vaccinations for successful eradication, but there 131 00:09:18,840 --> 00:09:23,959 Speaker 1: were more than six hundred cases. So how was it 132 00:09:24,080 --> 00:09:28,360 Speaker 1: that suddenly this disease was making a comeback. That's what 133 00:09:28,480 --> 00:09:36,719 Speaker 1: may I wanted to find out. Now, let me back 134 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,679 Speaker 1: up here for a second and say that the overwhelming 135 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,920 Speaker 1: majority of Americans vaccinate their kids. The CDC says that 136 00:09:47,360 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: which is the last year that their state of for 137 00:09:50,360 --> 00:09:53,439 Speaker 1: more than ninety person of kids got their MMR shot, 138 00:09:53,800 --> 00:09:59,800 Speaker 1: polio shot, Cappatitis B shot, and chickenpox shot. Even Andrew 139 00:10:00,200 --> 00:10:06,760 Speaker 1: fields infamous MMR study didn't impact national vaccination rates all 140 00:10:06,800 --> 00:10:10,720 Speaker 1: that much. But as Maya and her team began to 141 00:10:10,760 --> 00:10:14,160 Speaker 1: crack into the numbers, they started to see that national 142 00:10:14,200 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: and statewide data obscured what was really happening with vaccination rates. 143 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:24,800 Speaker 1: On a smaller scale. Using a whole lot of fancy maths, 144 00:10:25,360 --> 00:10:28,880 Speaker 1: Maya's group was able to show the vaccination rates among 145 00:10:28,920 --> 00:10:31,040 Speaker 1: the people who were exposed to the measles in the 146 00:10:31,080 --> 00:10:36,440 Speaker 1: Disneyland outbreak were way lower than national averages might suggest. 147 00:10:37,080 --> 00:10:40,199 Speaker 1: The vaccination rates in the communities affected by the Disneyland 148 00:10:40,200 --> 00:10:46,160 Speaker 1: outbreak were likely in the ballpark of fifty. Maya would 149 00:10:46,280 --> 00:10:49,920 Speaker 1: keep on with this kind of research. Years later. Her 150 00:10:49,960 --> 00:10:53,240 Speaker 1: team would collect county level vaccination rates from forty three 151 00:10:53,280 --> 00:10:59,480 Speaker 1: states for school year the year of the Disneyland outbreak, 152 00:11:00,480 --> 00:11:02,720 Speaker 1: and they found that while some counties had really high 153 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:08,240 Speaker 1: rates of vaccination and others rates were super low, almost 154 00:11:08,240 --> 00:11:11,360 Speaker 1: half of the counties they looked at had vaccination rates 155 00:11:11,520 --> 00:11:16,040 Speaker 1: below I think that was really eye opening for us. 156 00:11:16,200 --> 00:11:19,760 Speaker 1: We had certainly many suspicions that this was the case, 157 00:11:19,880 --> 00:11:23,440 Speaker 1: but it was really I think I opening to be 158 00:11:23,480 --> 00:11:27,559 Speaker 1: able to see it visualized in a map, just how 159 00:11:27,600 --> 00:11:31,120 Speaker 1: diverse the vaccination rates were at the county level across 160 00:11:31,160 --> 00:11:34,200 Speaker 1: the United States. If you're in a community that has 161 00:11:34,200 --> 00:11:37,480 Speaker 1: a vaccination rate for something like MMR at less than 162 00:11:39,080 --> 00:11:42,280 Speaker 1: and you're an at risk kid like Rhett, that is 163 00:11:42,320 --> 00:11:48,880 Speaker 1: a very scary scenario. Might seem like a lot. It's 164 00:11:48,920 --> 00:11:53,400 Speaker 1: still the vast majority of kids. But this comes back 165 00:11:53,480 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: to an idea that we've discussed earlier in this series. 166 00:11:57,480 --> 00:12:01,679 Speaker 1: Vaccines take public trust and co operation in order to work. 167 00:12:02,480 --> 00:12:05,800 Speaker 1: Exactly how many people need to be vaccinated in order 168 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: for a particular vaccine to work depends on how contagious 169 00:12:09,320 --> 00:12:12,440 Speaker 1: of virus is and how effective a vaccine is in 170 00:12:12,520 --> 00:12:17,640 Speaker 1: preventing it. Take the MMR vaccine, perhaps the most controversial 171 00:12:17,720 --> 00:12:22,719 Speaker 1: vaccine before the pandemic. The MMR is actually highly effective 172 00:12:22,760 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: at preventing measles, mumps, and rebella, but measles is also 173 00:12:27,520 --> 00:12:32,520 Speaker 1: extremely contagious, So for the MMR to prevent the spread 174 00:12:32,520 --> 00:12:36,600 Speaker 1: of measles, it requires more than ninety five of kids 175 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:40,360 Speaker 1: to be vaccinated against it. But once you look at 176 00:12:40,360 --> 00:12:44,680 Speaker 1: the numbers, then there's the question of why people aren't 177 00:12:44,760 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 1: vaccinating their kids, and this can get complicated. It's not 178 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:55,160 Speaker 1: just because of social media or conspiracy theories or all 179 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,200 Speaker 1: of the confusing ingredients that are in vaccines. In fact, 180 00:12:59,679 --> 00:13:02,600 Speaker 1: it might not really be about any of those things 181 00:13:03,120 --> 00:13:08,040 Speaker 1: at all. Individual beliefs about vaccines are often rooted in 182 00:13:08,080 --> 00:13:13,640 Speaker 1: a person's identity and worldview. For example, the vaccine for HPV, 183 00:13:14,040 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: which was introduced to the US in two thousand six, 184 00:13:17,160 --> 00:13:22,479 Speaker 1: quickly became extremely controversial, in part because it's a vaccine 185 00:13:22,920 --> 00:13:26,520 Speaker 1: to prevent a sexually transmitted disease that is given to 186 00:13:26,559 --> 00:13:30,880 Speaker 1: preteen girls. Religious communities were among those that objected to 187 00:13:30,960 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 1: it because they didn't want young women to see it 188 00:13:33,200 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 1: as a licensed to go have sex. Even outside of 189 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:40,720 Speaker 1: those groups, many parents felt that way it was just 190 00:13:41,000 --> 00:13:44,960 Speaker 1: uncomfortable to sexualize their preteen daughters. One of the things 191 00:13:45,040 --> 00:13:47,400 Speaker 1: that I've discovered over the years is that there are 192 00:13:47,440 --> 00:13:50,600 Speaker 1: lots of different reasons for vaccine hesitancy, and they usually 193 00:13:50,600 --> 00:13:54,559 Speaker 1: emerge in different ways in different populations, and vaccine hesitancy 194 00:13:54,640 --> 00:13:57,960 Speaker 1: for different diseases looks different. At the time of the 195 00:13:58,000 --> 00:14:01,160 Speaker 1: Disneyland outbreak, there was a whole lot of other things 196 00:14:01,200 --> 00:14:03,920 Speaker 1: going on in our culture that might lead someone to 197 00:14:04,000 --> 00:14:08,760 Speaker 1: question vaccines. Clean living was becoming a thing, and people 198 00:14:08,800 --> 00:14:12,000 Speaker 1: were paying a lot of attention to everything they put 199 00:14:12,000 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 1: in their bodies. Third wave feminism was encouraging moms to 200 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:18,960 Speaker 1: take back power and how they chose to raise their kids. 201 00:14:19,960 --> 00:14:24,520 Speaker 1: By this point, misinformation about vaccines had also gone mainstream 202 00:14:24,600 --> 00:14:29,520 Speaker 1: and even become trendy. Former Playboy Bunny Jenny McCarthy wrote 203 00:14:29,520 --> 00:14:33,440 Speaker 1: a book blaming the MMR vaccine for her son's autism 204 00:14:33,480 --> 00:14:37,280 Speaker 1: and quickly became the celebrity face of the movement. She 205 00:14:37,400 --> 00:14:42,920 Speaker 1: pushed vaccine misinformation on talk shows and magazine spreads. She 206 00:14:43,000 --> 00:14:46,280 Speaker 1: even appeared ringside with the w w E to promote 207 00:14:46,280 --> 00:14:51,520 Speaker 1: an organization that falsely claimed vaccines cause autism. Together, the 208 00:14:51,600 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: tag team of w w E and Generation Rescue Can 209 00:14:56,480 --> 00:15:01,680 Speaker 1: and Will lay the SmackDown on a his happen what. 210 00:15:03,720 --> 00:15:08,160 Speaker 1: There was now a sizeable body of scientific research debunking 211 00:15:08,360 --> 00:15:13,160 Speaker 1: the connection between vaccines and autism, but that didn't seem 212 00:15:13,200 --> 00:15:18,280 Speaker 1: to matter. More and more people were questioning the safety 213 00:15:18,520 --> 00:15:24,120 Speaker 1: of vaccines. Maya's research into the outbreak helped confirm what 214 00:15:24,200 --> 00:15:29,200 Speaker 1: people had already suspected. Vaccination rates were dropping among some 215 00:15:29,480 --> 00:15:33,720 Speaker 1: groups of people, and now it was clear that this 216 00:15:33,760 --> 00:15:38,200 Speaker 1: could pose a real threat to public health. This threat 217 00:15:38,600 --> 00:15:41,360 Speaker 1: is what moved Rhet and his family to take the 218 00:15:41,440 --> 00:15:45,880 Speaker 1: stage and lobby for this new bill to ban exemptions 219 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,680 Speaker 1: in California. And this would kick things up a notch. 220 00:15:50,920 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: There's been a lot of changes to um the anti 221 00:15:54,360 --> 00:15:58,160 Speaker 1: vaccine scene, at least since I started almost eight years ago. 222 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:04,080 Speaker 1: We're saying more groups organizing around issues of civil liberties 223 00:16:04,240 --> 00:16:09,320 Speaker 1: and the idea of vaccines as issues of freedom or 224 00:16:09,480 --> 00:16:14,520 Speaker 1: vaccine choice. This is Amelia Jamison and I am a 225 00:16:14,600 --> 00:16:19,280 Speaker 1: doctoral student at Johns Hopkins University where I study online 226 00:16:19,320 --> 00:16:22,920 Speaker 1: health misinformation and how it can be used to exacerbate 227 00:16:23,000 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: social divides. Amelia has been studying health misinformation for a 228 00:16:27,120 --> 00:16:31,400 Speaker 1: long time. She started out as an anthropology student at 229 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 1: the University of Maryland Center for Health Equity doing field 230 00:16:35,040 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 1: research on vaccine hesitancy, a lot of it focused on 231 00:16:38,400 --> 00:16:41,640 Speaker 1: the African American community. There's a big moment in my 232 00:16:41,720 --> 00:16:44,560 Speaker 1: career where I feel like I realized the imports of 233 00:16:44,600 --> 00:16:48,480 Speaker 1: online misincussion, and that was after the election, when we 234 00:16:48,520 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: were scouring a data set about a Russian Twitter troll. 235 00:16:53,120 --> 00:16:57,760 Speaker 1: Trolls and we were able to find a failed campaign 236 00:16:57,760 --> 00:17:00,640 Speaker 1: where they had tried to use vaccines as a wedge 237 00:17:00,680 --> 00:17:06,040 Speaker 1: issue to polarize Americans on this issue. Amilia says that 238 00:17:06,080 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: these trends first started cropping up after the Disneyland measles outbreak, 239 00:17:11,400 --> 00:17:14,440 Speaker 1: and this is where we really saw this coalescence around 240 00:17:14,480 --> 00:17:18,680 Speaker 1: the idea of vaccination as a civil liberties issue. I 241 00:17:18,760 --> 00:17:24,159 Speaker 1: spent I read thousands of tweets over the trajectory of 242 00:17:24,200 --> 00:17:28,320 Speaker 1: the Disneyland measles outbreak. Never published this stuff, but I 243 00:17:28,359 --> 00:17:30,480 Speaker 1: think we try to figure out what was happening and 244 00:17:30,520 --> 00:17:32,840 Speaker 1: what kind of discussions are happening, And so I think 245 00:17:32,840 --> 00:17:36,480 Speaker 1: Disneyland is really important because it drew a lot of 246 00:17:36,520 --> 00:17:40,360 Speaker 1: attention to this issue that had kind of fallen lay low. 247 00:17:41,000 --> 00:17:43,879 Speaker 1: Amilia says, this moment actually drew out a lot of 248 00:17:43,920 --> 00:17:48,199 Speaker 1: public support for vaccines, but the other side of the 249 00:17:48,320 --> 00:17:54,240 Speaker 1: argument gained momentum. To the antivaxers kind of felt endangered 250 00:17:54,359 --> 00:17:58,120 Speaker 1: or imperiled, and then they started to mobilize and help 251 00:17:58,280 --> 00:18:01,040 Speaker 1: organize themselves in ways that they could pro test this bill. 252 00:18:01,800 --> 00:18:05,760 Speaker 1: The way vaccinations were talked about on social media also 253 00:18:05,920 --> 00:18:11,000 Speaker 1: started to change. We followed uh different Facebook pages and 254 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:14,960 Speaker 1: a lot of them had different names, like Michigan for 255 00:18:15,080 --> 00:18:18,240 Speaker 1: Vaccine Choice or California for Vaccine Choice, and so each 256 00:18:18,280 --> 00:18:20,960 Speaker 1: at the state level. I think vaccine choice became this 257 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,960 Speaker 1: new talking point or away to reframe this conversation away 258 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:31,080 Speaker 1: from a facts based is this real? Is not real? 259 00:18:31,560 --> 00:18:36,000 Speaker 1: Especially because there was, in my view, increasing evidence that 260 00:18:36,160 --> 00:18:39,560 Speaker 1: vaccines don't cause out to them, so that older idea 261 00:18:39,760 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: had shifted. The target expanded beyond arguing about the safety 262 00:18:44,040 --> 00:18:48,480 Speaker 1: of vaccines to questioning whether vaccine laws infringed on people's 263 00:18:48,480 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: personal liberties. It was a harder point to argue against. 264 00:18:52,760 --> 00:18:55,720 Speaker 1: It began to change the profile of when anti vaxxter 265 00:18:55,840 --> 00:19:01,119 Speaker 1: looked like it wasn't just Marin Moms anymore. It's hard 266 00:19:01,200 --> 00:19:04,359 Speaker 1: to really measure how many anti vaxxers there are out there, 267 00:19:04,960 --> 00:19:07,479 Speaker 1: but most experts would tell you that their numbers are 268 00:19:07,520 --> 00:19:11,240 Speaker 1: still pretty small. Keep in mind, when I use the 269 00:19:11,240 --> 00:19:16,040 Speaker 1: phrase anti vax are, I'm referring specifically to activists who 270 00:19:16,080 --> 00:19:20,480 Speaker 1: are making a concerted effort to spread misinformation about vaccines. 271 00:19:21,560 --> 00:19:25,320 Speaker 1: But even though their numbers are small, they're very loud, 272 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,320 Speaker 1: and their messaging reaches people who are maybe just a 273 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,520 Speaker 1: little bit skeptical of vaccines or distrusting of doctors or 274 00:19:33,560 --> 00:19:39,520 Speaker 1: the government, and these people are where the problem is. 275 00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,639 Speaker 1: The numbers of these people in the middle appear to 276 00:19:42,680 --> 00:19:46,879 Speaker 1: be large and growing. Often they are also primed by 277 00:19:46,920 --> 00:19:50,720 Speaker 1: other points of view to believe in conspiracy theories. Public 278 00:19:50,760 --> 00:19:54,560 Speaker 1: health officials and the small numbers of extreme hardcore anti 279 00:19:54,640 --> 00:19:58,080 Speaker 1: vaxxers are basically locked in a battle to win these 280 00:19:58,080 --> 00:20:02,480 Speaker 1: people over. And these people don't ever need to refer 281 00:20:02,520 --> 00:20:05,840 Speaker 1: to themselves as anti vaxxers for that battle to be lost. 282 00:20:06,520 --> 00:20:08,920 Speaker 1: All they need to do is decide to not vaccinate 283 00:20:08,960 --> 00:20:13,680 Speaker 1: their kids or not to vaccinate themselves against COVID nineteen. 284 00:20:14,480 --> 00:20:17,480 Speaker 1: Amelia says, one big reason why this movement has continued 285 00:20:17,520 --> 00:20:21,199 Speaker 1: to grow is that it has strong leadership. There's this 286 00:20:21,240 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: idea that anti vaccs are all these parents and they're 287 00:20:23,520 --> 00:20:26,199 Speaker 1: like mothers with children. But I think it's important to 288 00:20:26,240 --> 00:20:30,080 Speaker 1: recognize that there are these there's leaders in this or 289 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:33,879 Speaker 1: a movement, and some of them represent organizations that have 290 00:20:34,000 --> 00:20:37,160 Speaker 1: been pretty active for quite some time actually, and they're 291 00:20:37,240 --> 00:20:40,680 Speaker 1: very influential, things like the Actually I don't want to 292 00:20:40,680 --> 00:20:43,800 Speaker 1: say their names because I don't want to controw Okay, 293 00:20:44,160 --> 00:20:47,960 Speaker 1: Amelia doesn't want to name names, but I will. Which 294 00:20:48,000 --> 00:20:50,119 Speaker 1: is getting at here is that a large amount of 295 00:20:50,200 --> 00:20:54,320 Speaker 1: vaccine misinformation is actually spread by a small number of people. 296 00:20:55,040 --> 00:20:58,320 Speaker 1: One study Amelia did in nineteen found that more than 297 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:02,520 Speaker 1: half of Facebook advertisement and spreading misinformation about vaccines were 298 00:21:02,520 --> 00:21:07,160 Speaker 1: funded by just two anti vaccine groups, including one lead 299 00:21:07,160 --> 00:21:12,520 Speaker 1: by Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Yes that Kennedy. These messages 300 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,600 Speaker 1: seemed like they were homegrown, grassroots social media posts, but 301 00:21:16,640 --> 00:21:22,119 Speaker 1: in reality they were carefully orchestrated advertising campaigns. The people 302 00:21:22,160 --> 00:21:26,240 Speaker 1: behind these posts were well organized and heavily funded, and 303 00:21:26,280 --> 00:21:30,600 Speaker 1: also just really savvy. I think the one strategy was 304 00:21:30,680 --> 00:21:34,720 Speaker 1: really understanding their audience and their audiences needs, so they're 305 00:21:34,760 --> 00:21:38,560 Speaker 1: able to craft a message that's appealing, but then also 306 00:21:39,160 --> 00:21:42,879 Speaker 1: use online tools such as targeted advertising to reach that 307 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:46,560 Speaker 1: audience really effectively, so that with a few hundred dollars 308 00:21:46,640 --> 00:21:51,440 Speaker 1: you could transform and advertisement into thousands of impressions, which 309 00:21:51,480 --> 00:21:54,159 Speaker 1: means you're reaching people who want to see your cause, 310 00:21:54,880 --> 00:21:59,040 Speaker 1: and then you can link them to off platform websites 311 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:02,080 Speaker 1: that you've created. Um, we see people using this just 312 00:22:02,200 --> 00:22:05,240 Speaker 1: to share more information, but also to fundraise or to 313 00:22:05,280 --> 00:22:09,080 Speaker 1: sell products or promote events, so after they see that ad, 314 00:22:09,160 --> 00:22:11,359 Speaker 1: they can be led to a variety of different sites 315 00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,919 Speaker 1: for variety of means. Amelia found the efforts by Facebook 316 00:22:15,960 --> 00:22:21,800 Speaker 1: to crack down on vaccine misinformation sometimes backfired. Pro vaccine 317 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 1: content would more often get taken down the way social 318 00:22:26,119 --> 00:22:29,880 Speaker 1: networks approach This has changed since the study, especially amid 319 00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:32,440 Speaker 1: the pandemic, and we'll get to that in the next episode. 320 00:22:33,280 --> 00:22:37,720 Speaker 1: But for a long time, these groups were very good innovating. 321 00:22:38,240 --> 00:22:42,080 Speaker 1: Whatever restrictions social networks put in place to stop them, 322 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:47,640 Speaker 1: misinformation ran rampant. It was hard to tell sometimes what 323 00:22:47,720 --> 00:22:52,280 Speaker 1: was true. Amelia says. The other thing is that these powerful, 324 00:22:52,800 --> 00:22:57,400 Speaker 1: well funded anti vaccine groups, we'll just change their messaging 325 00:22:57,480 --> 00:23:00,320 Speaker 1: if it runs into roadblocks. And I think it's also 326 00:23:00,359 --> 00:23:05,040 Speaker 1: interesting to realize that as we move towards fact checking 327 00:23:05,600 --> 00:23:08,680 Speaker 1: as a way to limit this kind of information of 328 00:23:09,000 --> 00:23:12,800 Speaker 1: freedom of a vaccine freedom or vaccine choice argument is 329 00:23:12,960 --> 00:23:16,800 Speaker 1: less able to be fact checked, right, it kind of 330 00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:20,160 Speaker 1: escapes that realm because it's not about facts. It's more 331 00:23:20,160 --> 00:23:24,520 Speaker 1: about a belief or an opinion. It's not just that 332 00:23:24,560 --> 00:23:28,199 Speaker 1: they changed their messaging. These groups have also co opted 333 00:23:28,240 --> 00:23:31,720 Speaker 1: the language of other social movements. And then like in 334 00:23:31,760 --> 00:23:35,920 Speaker 1: that way, you can also position yourself in this trajectory 335 00:23:36,040 --> 00:23:39,800 Speaker 1: of other great um civil rights battles throughout history, like 336 00:23:40,320 --> 00:23:45,400 Speaker 1: women's liberation or um civil rights. So so you can 337 00:23:45,560 --> 00:23:48,960 Speaker 1: see some of that rhetoric actually reappearing. You could see 338 00:23:48,960 --> 00:23:51,399 Speaker 1: this happen in real time in the aftermath of the 339 00:23:51,440 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: Disneyland measles outbreak. The bill Rett had supported was making 340 00:23:55,280 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: its way through the California legislature. At that time. A 341 00:23:59,600 --> 00:24:03,480 Speaker 1: pair of researchers found that Twitter hashtag organizers were publishing 342 00:24:03,560 --> 00:24:08,080 Speaker 1: nightly trends and tips videos on YouTube containing instructions on 343 00:24:08,119 --> 00:24:11,840 Speaker 1: what to tweet to advance the cause. But soon the 344 00:24:11,880 --> 00:24:15,320 Speaker 1: bill was advancing out of committee and becoming that much 345 00:24:15,359 --> 00:24:20,000 Speaker 1: closer to being passed. When that happened, the researchers found 346 00:24:20,000 --> 00:24:24,159 Speaker 1: that the more pseudoscience the messaging was suddenly changing. It 347 00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:28,439 Speaker 1: was becoming more about health freedom and choice. As the 348 00:24:28,480 --> 00:24:32,480 Speaker 1: messaging coming from these highly organized anti vaccine groups shifted 349 00:24:32,800 --> 00:24:37,639 Speaker 1: and broadened, other groups also belonged onto the issue. So 350 00:24:38,160 --> 00:24:42,000 Speaker 1: add together one part well funded anti vaccine group, one 351 00:24:42,080 --> 00:24:46,440 Speaker 1: part homegrown concerned from parents, and a chorus of outrage 352 00:24:46,480 --> 00:24:51,200 Speaker 1: from anti government sympathizers and you get a giant, confusing 353 00:24:51,440 --> 00:24:56,600 Speaker 1: info dump, which is exactly the point. In general. I 354 00:24:56,680 --> 00:25:01,600 Speaker 1: just feel like the anti vactors haven't really learned how 355 00:25:01,640 --> 00:25:06,040 Speaker 1: to leverage online tools to reach this audience that is receptive, 356 00:25:06,600 --> 00:25:09,800 Speaker 1: and they're doing it much more efficiently than some of 357 00:25:09,840 --> 00:25:13,639 Speaker 1: the people who are working for public health. And this 358 00:25:13,760 --> 00:25:18,680 Speaker 1: messaging can be really compelling. It is easy to fall 359 00:25:18,720 --> 00:25:22,560 Speaker 1: for it. Amilia says at times in her research, she's 360 00:25:22,600 --> 00:25:26,480 Speaker 1: even found herself confused by all the misinformation, like I've 361 00:25:26,720 --> 00:25:28,480 Speaker 1: looked at a lot of it, and it's pretty effective. 362 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,480 Speaker 1: Like that, I've sometimes they're like, oh wow, I didn't 363 00:25:31,480 --> 00:25:33,360 Speaker 1: know this, and I go down my own grabbit hole 364 00:25:33,480 --> 00:25:35,880 Speaker 1: trying to figure out, like what's true, what's not? Where 365 00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:38,919 Speaker 1: did this evidence come from. I'll admit, while working on 366 00:25:38,960 --> 00:25:41,520 Speaker 1: this podcast, I have a time has found myself in 367 00:25:41,520 --> 00:25:45,439 Speaker 1: that situation too. One night, I got so caught up 368 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,000 Speaker 1: reading about the chickenpox vaccine that I completely burned my 369 00:25:49,040 --> 00:25:51,920 Speaker 1: dinner on the stove. But at the end of the day, 370 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:54,880 Speaker 1: Amelia and I both start from a place of trust 371 00:25:55,000 --> 00:26:00,359 Speaker 1: in vaccines and medicine and science, but mistrust of romant 372 00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:04,359 Speaker 1: and drug companies is just so widespread at this point, 373 00:26:05,240 --> 00:26:08,600 Speaker 1: and if that's the place you're starting from, you're probably 374 00:26:08,680 --> 00:26:12,080 Speaker 1: more receptive to ideas that anti vaccine groups are pushing. 375 00:26:12,840 --> 00:26:14,919 Speaker 1: And I think one of the big arguments for the 376 00:26:14,960 --> 00:26:17,800 Speaker 1: anti vaxus community is they're like, I've done my research, 377 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:22,240 Speaker 1: I'm an informed consumer, And they have spent a long time, 378 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:25,879 Speaker 1: probably more than the average person, looking at information and 379 00:26:26,000 --> 00:26:30,040 Speaker 1: research about vaccines. Because it's true, vaccine side effects do happen, 380 00:26:30,119 --> 00:26:32,800 Speaker 1: some of them are pretty severe. It's just that on 381 00:26:32,880 --> 00:26:36,200 Speaker 1: the whole, we believe that vaccines are safe and effective 382 00:26:36,280 --> 00:26:39,720 Speaker 1: and it's best that everybody gets vaccinated. But I think 383 00:26:40,400 --> 00:26:43,679 Speaker 1: it's really challenging to combat that and be like the 384 00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 1: information like, because you've taken this upon yourself to do 385 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:49,080 Speaker 1: this research, and it's I think it's really hard to 386 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,359 Speaker 1: tell people like, no, don't do that, just trust in 387 00:26:52,440 --> 00:26:55,840 Speaker 1: whatever we tell you to do. Amelia remembers back in 388 00:26:55,840 --> 00:26:58,800 Speaker 1: November she went to an anti vaccine rally on the 389 00:26:58,840 --> 00:27:02,119 Speaker 1: Mall in Washington and it was cold, and there was 390 00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:04,560 Speaker 1: just a bunch of moms there with their kids, and 391 00:27:04,560 --> 00:27:07,080 Speaker 1: there was just a whole day's panels. Weren't the speakers, 392 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,119 Speaker 1: and they were up there talking about different things but 393 00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:12,560 Speaker 1: if you walk through the crowd, there were a lot 394 00:27:12,560 --> 00:27:15,040 Speaker 1: of people who had made t shirts or posters about 395 00:27:15,080 --> 00:27:18,879 Speaker 1: their vaccine injured child, And I think that's where you 396 00:27:18,920 --> 00:27:23,800 Speaker 1: start to see the human face of this movement. Amelia 397 00:27:23,880 --> 00:27:27,400 Speaker 1: says that as someone who spends our time researching Internet misinformation, 398 00:27:28,160 --> 00:27:31,440 Speaker 1: this human side isn't something she gets to see. It 399 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:34,119 Speaker 1: really her home for her. So there really are people 400 00:27:34,200 --> 00:27:38,400 Speaker 1: who are struggling with something and they're looking for answers, 401 00:27:38,600 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: and they're not finding them through traditional sources, and this 402 00:27:41,480 --> 00:27:50,480 Speaker 1: is a community that's giving them answers. Okay, so I've 403 00:27:50,520 --> 00:27:54,680 Speaker 1: got a big, fat disclaimer for you here. We've made 404 00:27:54,840 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: what some people might view as a sort of controversial decision. 405 00:27:58,800 --> 00:28:01,199 Speaker 1: There's a big question about how to report on this 406 00:28:01,240 --> 00:28:06,159 Speaker 1: stuff without accidentally spreading misinformation. I cannot stress enough that 407 00:28:06,240 --> 00:28:10,200 Speaker 1: these ideas are sticky. Talking about them at all does 408 00:28:10,320 --> 00:28:14,000 Speaker 1: risk sending someone else down the rabbit hole. And as 409 00:28:14,040 --> 00:28:17,119 Speaker 1: we have discussed in this series, the media has played 410 00:28:17,119 --> 00:28:21,480 Speaker 1: a big role in the past in spreading misinformation about vaccines. 411 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: But it also seemed hard to discuss how people come 412 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:28,960 Speaker 1: to hold their beliefs about vaccines without talking to those 413 00:28:29,000 --> 00:28:32,239 Speaker 1: people about what they think what follows is not an 414 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: endorsement of those beliefs. I cannot say this enough. Vaccines 415 00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 1: are overwhelmingly safe. This isn't even a point of debate. 416 00:28:42,440 --> 00:28:46,200 Speaker 1: There is no debate. What this is is a recognition 417 00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:50,240 Speaker 1: that this is a confusing topic. I'll also say that 418 00:28:50,280 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: it was really tough to get people who are truly 419 00:28:52,360 --> 00:28:55,280 Speaker 1: against vaccines to talk to me. There is a real 420 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:57,720 Speaker 1: sense among this group of people that they have been 421 00:28:57,760 --> 00:29:00,880 Speaker 1: shamed and mocked by the press. But a group of 422 00:29:00,920 --> 00:29:03,520 Speaker 1: parents in New Jersey, one dad and a bunch of 423 00:29:03,520 --> 00:29:06,400 Speaker 1: moms were nice enough to chat with me. It was 424 00:29:06,440 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: striking to me how similar a lot of their stories were. 425 00:29:10,840 --> 00:29:13,880 Speaker 1: Now we're going to hear from just one of those moms. 426 00:29:14,600 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: I have four fool. Let me start. I have four children. 427 00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: So for me, it started out when I had my 428 00:29:20,520 --> 00:29:22,120 Speaker 1: first and it took us a long time to have 429 00:29:22,160 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 1: our first um and you know, suddenly I was looking 430 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:29,080 Speaker 1: at his first year of life. He was getting twenty 431 00:29:29,080 --> 00:29:33,160 Speaker 1: six vaccines. She means twenty six doses of different vaccines here, 432 00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:37,360 Speaker 1: which to me was like, that is insane. This is 433 00:29:37,440 --> 00:29:41,719 Speaker 1: Kristin McNair. Until recently she lived in New Jersey, and 434 00:29:41,760 --> 00:29:45,160 Speaker 1: actually used to be a brand strategist for pharmaceutical companies, 435 00:29:45,600 --> 00:29:49,200 Speaker 1: but now she's studying to be a nurse in North Carolina. 436 00:29:49,440 --> 00:29:52,720 Speaker 1: She told me she's really fascinated by the human body, 437 00:29:52,880 --> 00:29:57,160 Speaker 1: and in particular, the immune system. And she immediately brought 438 00:29:57,200 --> 00:29:59,200 Speaker 1: up a point you hear from parents both in the 439 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:03,480 Speaker 1: anti vaccine community and sometimes outside of it. It was 440 00:30:03,520 --> 00:30:06,920 Speaker 1: the sheer number of vaccines that first made Kristen do 441 00:30:06,960 --> 00:30:09,400 Speaker 1: a double take. So I went back and I said, 442 00:30:09,480 --> 00:30:11,840 Speaker 1: I'm a healthy person. I didn't have all of these vaccines. 443 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: Why is it now that my children are required to 444 00:30:14,440 --> 00:30:17,959 Speaker 1: have so many more vaccines than than they used to? 445 00:30:18,440 --> 00:30:21,480 Speaker 1: But it was really important for me to understand the 446 00:30:21,560 --> 00:30:25,520 Speaker 1: why behind it. UM. I have a really awesome pediatrician 447 00:30:25,560 --> 00:30:28,520 Speaker 1: and we talked things through and I said, well, what 448 00:30:28,600 --> 00:30:30,240 Speaker 1: are the ones that are required? Why are the ones 449 00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,600 Speaker 1: are not? Do I have to do it on your schedule? Um? 450 00:30:33,640 --> 00:30:35,920 Speaker 1: And he wanted to know where I was coming from. Why, 451 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 1: And I said, you know what, putting so many things 452 00:30:39,240 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 1: into my child's body doesn't make a ton of sense 453 00:30:42,040 --> 00:30:44,880 Speaker 1: to me. That aren't necessary. Um. And if they aren't 454 00:30:44,880 --> 00:30:48,920 Speaker 1: necessarily explained to me, why for Kristen this is where 455 00:30:48,920 --> 00:30:53,320 Speaker 1: the doubts started. In the past few decades, the number 456 00:30:53,320 --> 00:30:57,360 Speaker 1: of vaccines that kids get basically tripled. When I was 457 00:30:57,360 --> 00:31:00,320 Speaker 1: a kid, you definitely didn't get a chicken pox back scene, 458 00:31:00,920 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: You just got the chickenpox. Parents had parties to expose 459 00:31:05,120 --> 00:31:08,120 Speaker 1: their kids to the chicken pox intentionally so they could 460 00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:12,920 Speaker 1: just get it over with already. Originally, vaccines were intended 461 00:31:12,960 --> 00:31:16,400 Speaker 1: as a way to treat epidemics like smallpox. It was 462 00:31:16,440 --> 00:31:19,000 Speaker 1: only over time that they became a regular part of 463 00:31:19,040 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: public health programming and gradually grew to include diseases that 464 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:27,240 Speaker 1: are less deadly. Nowadays, kids get vaccines for illnesses that 465 00:31:27,720 --> 00:31:31,160 Speaker 1: don't really seem that serious to people. But it's important 466 00:31:31,200 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 1: to remember that even the chickenpox does kill some people, 467 00:31:35,880 --> 00:31:40,520 Speaker 1: it can also cause serious complications like shingles later in life. 468 00:31:41,440 --> 00:31:43,720 Speaker 1: But I heard similar stories like this from a lot 469 00:31:43,760 --> 00:31:47,280 Speaker 1: of the moms I talked to. The number of vaccines 470 00:31:47,360 --> 00:31:50,440 Speaker 1: gave them pause. A lot of researchers I've talked to 471 00:31:50,520 --> 00:31:54,520 Speaker 1: in reporting this podcast also mentioned this that hesitancy has 472 00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,760 Speaker 1: grown as a vaccine schedule for kids also has and 473 00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: those changes have occurred alongside other trends in our society. 474 00:32:02,360 --> 00:32:07,240 Speaker 1: Like fucking preservatives and food and questioning medical advice more generally, 475 00:32:07,880 --> 00:32:10,800 Speaker 1: I mean, we all google what our doctor tells us 476 00:32:10,880 --> 00:32:14,960 Speaker 1: to get a second opinion. Christen says our first pediatrician 477 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:19,360 Speaker 1: was unwilling to have conversations about vaccination with her. This 478 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,200 Speaker 1: is another common theme. She had questions and she felt 479 00:32:23,200 --> 00:32:26,680 Speaker 1: like she couldn't get answers to them. In vaccine skeptic 480 00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:31,720 Speaker 1: Facebook groups, often parents inquire about pediatricians that won't force 481 00:32:31,800 --> 00:32:35,680 Speaker 1: vaccines on them. This is a tough balancing act for doctors. 482 00:32:36,320 --> 00:32:39,120 Speaker 1: You want to steer your parents towards the best decision possible, 483 00:32:39,560 --> 00:32:43,080 Speaker 1: but not totally ice them out. Kristen asked people in 484 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:46,280 Speaker 1: a mom's Facebook group if they knew of any doctors 485 00:32:46,320 --> 00:32:50,160 Speaker 1: who would be willing to hear her concerns. She eventually 486 00:32:50,200 --> 00:32:53,440 Speaker 1: found one, so we would have those conversations. I had 487 00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,520 Speaker 1: a child that had allergies, so that created issues also, 488 00:32:57,960 --> 00:33:01,760 Speaker 1: So ultimately, what I ended up do mean was saying, Okay, 489 00:33:01,800 --> 00:33:03,640 Speaker 1: these are not vaccines that I'm willing to give my 490 00:33:03,720 --> 00:33:06,640 Speaker 1: child for this reason, A, B and C. And then 491 00:33:06,680 --> 00:33:09,920 Speaker 1: with these vaccines, let's talk it through m M R Nisle, 492 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:13,400 Speaker 1: Moms and Rebella it's three vaccines in one I wasn't 493 00:33:13,400 --> 00:33:16,800 Speaker 1: comfortable with that. Kristen was actually different from the rest 494 00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:19,080 Speaker 1: of the New Jersey parents I talked to, and that 495 00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:23,320 Speaker 1: she was willing to give her kids some vaccines. One 496 00:33:23,360 --> 00:33:26,120 Speaker 1: pair and I talked to actually moved from New York 497 00:33:26,280 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 1: to New Jersey, which has more relaxed laws, partly in 498 00:33:30,520 --> 00:33:33,920 Speaker 1: order to avoid vaccinating their kid. Kristen talked with her 499 00:33:33,960 --> 00:33:37,240 Speaker 1: doctor about a few concerns. She says she was worried 500 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:41,440 Speaker 1: about mercury in the MMR vaccine, even though it doesn't 501 00:33:41,560 --> 00:33:46,040 Speaker 1: contain mercury, and she was conflicted on whether it seemed 502 00:33:46,080 --> 00:33:48,800 Speaker 1: like there was some kind of link between the MMR 503 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:52,800 Speaker 1: and autism. She told me then when she was pregnant 504 00:33:52,800 --> 00:33:57,880 Speaker 1: with our first child, she remembers those conversations circulating and 505 00:33:57,920 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: I remember watching very specific a video and this is 506 00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:04,000 Speaker 1: when I was doing my research, you know, thirteen years 507 00:34:04,000 --> 00:34:08,400 Speaker 1: ago now of a woman who are twins, and you know, 508 00:34:08,480 --> 00:34:10,680 Speaker 1: you watched those twins developing up until the age of 509 00:34:10,719 --> 00:34:13,000 Speaker 1: two two and a half, and they both went and 510 00:34:13,040 --> 00:34:16,040 Speaker 1: got the vaccine on the same day, and you see 511 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,400 Speaker 1: a week later that her one child is starting to 512 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,040 Speaker 1: act completely different and then you do see is it 513 00:34:23,080 --> 00:34:26,000 Speaker 1: the vaccine? I don't know. She wound up giving the 514 00:34:26,120 --> 00:34:29,319 Speaker 1: MMR to all of her kids, just split into three 515 00:34:29,320 --> 00:34:34,440 Speaker 1: separate vaccines. There isn't really good evidence to support this idea, 516 00:34:34,640 --> 00:34:36,480 Speaker 1: but she wanted to wait and see if her kids 517 00:34:36,480 --> 00:34:39,800 Speaker 1: would have an allergic reaction to each of the individual shots. 518 00:34:40,560 --> 00:34:44,480 Speaker 1: There's concern from experts that messing with the prescribed vaccine 519 00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:48,680 Speaker 1: schedule leaves kids vulnerable to illness for longer and could 520 00:34:48,760 --> 00:34:52,279 Speaker 1: lead to more spread of disease. But it's better that 521 00:34:52,360 --> 00:34:55,839 Speaker 1: parents vaccinate their kids on their own terms rather than 522 00:34:56,120 --> 00:35:00,279 Speaker 1: not at all. For parents like Kristen, breaking up multi 523 00:35:00,320 --> 00:35:04,320 Speaker 1: shots into individual ones helps them feel more in control. 524 00:35:05,080 --> 00:35:08,040 Speaker 1: I think being informed and not just going in and saying, okay, 525 00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,520 Speaker 1: this is the protocol that we give babies when they're 526 00:35:10,520 --> 00:35:13,720 Speaker 1: born and for the next eighteen years of their lives. 527 00:35:14,600 --> 00:35:16,520 Speaker 1: That didn't make sense to me. I'm their mom. I 528 00:35:16,560 --> 00:35:19,200 Speaker 1: feel like I should know why it's happening. I'm not 529 00:35:19,239 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: against vaccines at all. I think there's a place for 530 00:35:21,640 --> 00:35:24,600 Speaker 1: certain ones, but I also think some of them are 531 00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:27,319 Speaker 1: not things that would give my children. And there's three 532 00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:30,040 Speaker 1: or four that I feel very strongly about that the 533 00:35:30,080 --> 00:35:33,480 Speaker 1: side effects, for the potential side effects or the things 534 00:35:33,520 --> 00:35:35,880 Speaker 1: that are written on the warning label, the risk of 535 00:35:35,920 --> 00:35:38,560 Speaker 1: that to me is just not worth it. The other 536 00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 1: thing that was different about Kristen was that in her 537 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,720 Speaker 1: own life she actually had an example of why people 538 00:35:44,840 --> 00:35:50,680 Speaker 1: should give vaccines. One of my friends chat children, Um 539 00:35:50,920 --> 00:35:55,920 Speaker 1: had brain cancer, and we were talking about how his 540 00:35:56,000 --> 00:36:01,160 Speaker 1: immune system is so um suppressed. And when she goes 541 00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,960 Speaker 1: out in public, she doesn't worry. She worries about her son, 542 00:36:04,040 --> 00:36:06,000 Speaker 1: but she also worries about the people who have made 543 00:36:06,040 --> 00:36:10,040 Speaker 1: choices that she can't control. And she wasn't necessarily talking 544 00:36:10,040 --> 00:36:12,400 Speaker 1: about vaccines at that time. It was just things that 545 00:36:12,400 --> 00:36:15,799 Speaker 1: they let their children do or so here she is 546 00:36:15,840 --> 00:36:18,920 Speaker 1: trying to protect your son um, who was at the 547 00:36:18,960 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: time was very sick, and they were living who he 548 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:25,720 Speaker 1: was exposed to. And I had this thought to myself 549 00:36:25,840 --> 00:36:30,480 Speaker 1: that was, Okay, I'm having this discussion in my head 550 00:36:30,520 --> 00:36:33,400 Speaker 1: about what vaccines I'm going to give my children. But 551 00:36:33,480 --> 00:36:35,520 Speaker 1: at the same time, I don't want to ever put 552 00:36:35,560 --> 00:36:39,319 Speaker 1: somebody else's children at risk because of a decision that 553 00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:42,839 Speaker 1: I made. And I do think it's part of our 554 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:47,000 Speaker 1: responsibility to take care of everybody within reason. I think 555 00:36:47,000 --> 00:36:55,640 Speaker 1: you have to be comfortable with it. One thing that 556 00:36:55,680 --> 00:36:58,920 Speaker 1: became clear from my conversations with Kristen and all of 557 00:36:58,960 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 1: the New Jersey parents was that efforts to take away 558 00:37:02,080 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 1: their choice to decide whether or not to vaccinate their 559 00:37:04,520 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 1: kids really spurred them to action. New Jersey tried to 560 00:37:08,760 --> 00:37:13,560 Speaker 1: tighten its vaccine laws in and Kristen was out there protesting. 561 00:37:14,320 --> 00:37:20,120 Speaker 1: You were seeing vaccinators and non vaccinators coming together um 562 00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:21,839 Speaker 1: to go because they all kind of felt the same 563 00:37:21,880 --> 00:37:25,919 Speaker 1: way whether whatever your choices are, it should be my choice. 564 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: On June, California Governor Jerry Brown signed rhet Spill into law. 565 00:37:34,320 --> 00:37:38,440 Speaker 1: It was only six months after the Disneyland outbreak. Rhet 566 00:37:38,760 --> 00:37:42,680 Speaker 1: and his campaign had one people told me that my 567 00:37:42,800 --> 00:37:44,920 Speaker 1: story was one of the main reasons to bill passed 568 00:37:44,960 --> 00:37:48,040 Speaker 1: so quickly, and that is really exciting to me that 569 00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:52,200 Speaker 1: I was such a big part in helping something that 570 00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:56,400 Speaker 1: was so important. Rd as twelve. Now, he's been cancer 571 00:37:56,440 --> 00:37:59,200 Speaker 1: free for years and he's mostly just a normal middle 572 00:37:59,200 --> 00:38:02,359 Speaker 1: school kid, but he says the past year has him 573 00:38:02,440 --> 00:38:06,360 Speaker 1: thinking about all of these things again as a cancer survivor, 574 00:38:06,680 --> 00:38:10,080 Speaker 1: his risk of having severe illness if he contracts COVID nineteen, 575 00:38:10,800 --> 00:38:13,080 Speaker 1: it's still a bit higher than other kids this age. 576 00:38:14,000 --> 00:38:17,200 Speaker 1: Now that COVID has happened and we have vaccines and 577 00:38:18,280 --> 00:38:20,920 Speaker 1: that a lot of people aren't like say that they 578 00:38:20,960 --> 00:38:25,360 Speaker 1: won't be getting either, that there they don't trust it. 579 00:38:25,360 --> 00:38:29,880 Speaker 1: It's now another it's an issue again, and I think 580 00:38:29,920 --> 00:38:33,640 Speaker 1: that now I am thinking about it and how if 581 00:38:33,680 --> 00:38:37,560 Speaker 1: we don't it's a lot of people who don't get vaccinated. 582 00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 1: It's not gonna end this pandemic. And that's a problem. 583 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,520 Speaker 1: The opposition from anti vaccine advocates wasn't enough to stop 584 00:38:48,560 --> 00:38:53,200 Speaker 1: RT spill. New outbreaks of disease would spur other states 585 00:38:53,200 --> 00:38:59,000 Speaker 1: to follow California's lead. There were more than twelses of 586 00:38:59,040 --> 00:39:04,560 Speaker 1: the measles that year. Washington, New York, and Maine all 587 00:39:04,600 --> 00:39:09,400 Speaker 1: placed new limits on vaccine exemptions. This made vaccine skeptics 588 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:14,160 Speaker 1: grow louder than ever. Oregon in New Jersey would both 589 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,839 Speaker 1: fail to pass their own versions of new laws. At 590 00:39:17,840 --> 00:39:22,160 Speaker 1: the end of vaccines were clearly in the headlines again, 591 00:39:23,239 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: but the debate about vaccines reached a larger scale than ever, 592 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:33,359 Speaker 1: and this is something that vaccine proponents and skeptics like 593 00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:37,520 Speaker 1: Robert F. Kennedy Jr. Agree on I Think you Know, 594 00:39:37,600 --> 00:39:42,920 Speaker 1: It's undeniable that the explosive expansion of movement place after 595 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:51,480 Speaker 1: the pandemic. Next time on Doubt, anti vaccine extremists pounced 596 00:39:51,560 --> 00:40:17,799 Speaker 1: on the pandemic to take their movement mainstream. Doubt is 597 00:40:17,800 --> 00:40:21,839 Speaker 1: written and reported by me christ and v Brown Top 598 00:40:22,000 --> 00:40:26,760 Speaker 1: Foreheads is our senior producer. Molly Nugent is our associate producer. 599 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,040 Speaker 1: Our theme was composed and performed by Hannis Brown. Special 600 00:40:32,080 --> 00:40:36,680 Speaker 1: thanks to Bloomberg editors Tim Annette and Rick Shine. Francesco 601 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,080 Speaker 1: Levy is the head of Bloomberg Podcasts. Be sure to 602 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,279 Speaker 1: subscribe to Prognosis if you haven't already, and if you 603 00:40:43,360 --> 00:40:47,080 Speaker 1: like our show, please leave us. A review helps others 604 00:40:47,200 --> 00:40:50,440 Speaker 1: find out about the show. Thanks for listening, See you 605 00:40:50,480 --> 00:41:04,480 Speaker 1: next time. The pretty Part in Them